Brexit - What Now.

[JeMeSouviens]

This is probably the stupidest question ever, but here goes.

Does the Custom Union include Financial Services, and does that have any implications for pensions payments?

No, customs applies to goods only.

[Ozyhibby]

No, customs applies to goods only.

Means a nice soft border for any Indy ref campaign though.[emoji106]


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[hibeerealist]

[QUOTE=Since90+2;5959780]Exactly. Take back control , our parliament is sovereign ect.

The whole Brexit arguement and its benefits have been completely blown apart by simple facts and realism over the last 18 months. Most Brexiteers will realise that it's the wrong decision but are now so entrenched don't want to admit it. It's became so tribal that actual realism no longer matters.[/QUOTE

Mind reader alert

[Ozyhibby]

Sky now reporting that they think the numbers are now there for a CU.


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[Moulin Yarns]

First time I've seen the letters


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50114538

[Callum_62]

Sky now reporting that they think the numbers are now there for a CU.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf we are going to actually leave it has to be along the softer lines. Politically cut off but economically aligned

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[cabbageandribs1875]

f*dbaw, i really hope every scottish tory MP suffers at the next election

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72778216_2511223952301611_3155712708041506816_n.pn g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_eui2=AeGzkbrI26DW7spbo9tj7BedZoAaGMrBJhW8j7JMv 3Ize2GoaHIEIuvk_DGyU-olUiutymEDCgQH0abH-j38LJnj8x2CMTkwPeRz1mjbWqMzJA&_nc_oc=AQnoQ11B86fUrccpcX4xWelHcApvtgM-gXemEYGx2t0YpL6XrutinmsvcjN1DIW4a58&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=87ffb49fe2810ac0c89ec268b466d3f2&oe=5E651286

[Fife-Hibee]

f*dbaw, i really hope every scottish tory MP suffers at the next election

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72778216_2511223952301611_3155712708041506816_n.pn g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_eui2=AeGzkbrI26DW7spbo9tj7BedZoAaGMrBJhW8j7JMv 3Ize2GoaHIEIuvk_DGyU-olUiutymEDCgQH0abH-j38LJnj8x2CMTkwPeRz1mjbWqMzJA&_nc_oc=AQnoQ11B86fUrccpcX4xWelHcApvtgM-gXemEYGx2t0YpL6XrutinmsvcjN1DIW4a58&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=87ffb49fe2810ac0c89ec268b466d3f2&oe=5E651286

Another great bit of digging from the BBCs very own "Nat Hunter".

[JeMeSouviens]

Another great bit of digging from the BBCs very own "Nat Hunter".

You do realise it’s a parody?

[Fife-Hibee]

You do realise it’s a parody?

Shirley not?

[cabbageandribs1875]

according to a yougov poll from friday two thirds(67%) of leave voters wanted MP's to vote for johnson's deal

[Ozyhibby]

according to a yougov poll from friday two thirds(67%) of leave voters wanted MP's to vote for johnson's deal

Only two thirds? Rest must be no deal brexit fanatics.


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[Scorrie]

Bear in mind that if I’ve understood this correctly, Johnson’s deal if passed only gets us a transition period to start negotiations with EU. If we can’t agree a trade deal by end of 2020 then it’s no deal. I’m sure that the real Brexiteer nut jobs have this as their real aim

[lapsedhibee]

Bear in mind that if I’ve understood this correctly, Johnson’s deal if passed only gets us a transition period to start negotiations with EU. If we can’t agree a trade deal by end of 2020 then it’s no deal. I’m sure that the real Brexiteer nut jobs have this as their real aim

Which is why Johnson wanted to bounce MPs into voting for it Saturday, before they'd had a chance to work that out.

[G B Young]

Bear in mind that if I’ve understood this correctly, Johnson’s deal if passed only gets us a transition period to start negotiations with EU. If we can’t agree a trade deal by end of 2020 then it’s no deal. I’m sure that the real Brexiteer nut jobs have this as their real aim

As was always the case with any deal. There's years of this still ahead, yet this useless parliament seems content to keep us struggling at the first hurdle.

[Callum_62]

As was always the case with any deal. There's years of this still ahead, yet this useless parliament seems content to keep us struggling at the first hurdle.I know a deal that would end it with a stroke of a pen [emoji3580][emoji106][emoji6]

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[southsider]

I know a deal that would end it with a stroke of a pen [emoji3580][emoji106][emoji6]

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This will, I hope cause the break up of the UK. Scotland, Wales even the Isle of Man will be independent soon. Ireland will be united because economics and the larger birth rate of Nationalists in the 6 Counties will see to that.

[Jack]

As was always the case with any deal. There's years of this still ahead, yet this useless parliament seems content to keep us struggling at the first hurdle.

No.

It was this useless Tory party that has mucked up from start to whenever it's finished.

[G B Young]

No.

It was this useless Tory party that has mucked up from start to whenever it's finished.

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

Brexit would be done by now if Johnson and his ERG buddies had just voted for it. Whining about remainers when the brexiteers wont step up and take the prize is pointless. Whatever happens now, there can be no complaints from either side. Both have missed open goals all over the place.


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[JeMeSouviens]

A handy guide to the EU customs union.

https://twitter.com/EU_Taxud/status/1186179257871065094

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

1. The majority of the Brexit vote came from the South of England, not the North.
2. In what way exactly are Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, etc in any way non-metropolitan, non-smug, non-middle class* or non-elite?
3. Practically all the Tory Remainers voted for Brexit, many leading Remainers (inc a certain T May) negotiated and brought forward a deal. It was the Leave Tories who torpedoed it.


* well, I suppose you could argue some are upper class. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

You mean people don't change their minds?

Think again

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

[Dalianwanda]

This will, I hope cause the break up of the UK. Scotland, Wales even the Isle of Man will be independent soon. Ireland will be united because economics and the larger birth rate of Nationalists in the 6 Counties will see to that.

Was listening to a radio phone in the other day (ir may have been highly edited)..All they were asked is 'what would you be prepared to give up/compromise on as part of united ireland'..Very few were prepared to compromise anything in terms of the reuniting with the north apart from perhaps a new national anthem. I'm not sure it will happen..

[Jack]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

The people's vote was very close.

The House of Commons has been very close all the way through this mess instigated by the Torys.

If only the Torys has sought some common ground with the other parties instead of it being our deal or no deal we could well be out by now.

It's the intransigence of the Tory party that has led us to where we are now, no-one else.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50117164


Scotland's highest court has delayed a decision on whether the prime minister has fully complied with a law requiring him to ask for a Brexit extension.


Mr Maugham said he was "delighted" with the court's decision.
"It is a pity to have to say it, but this is not a prime minister who can be trusted to comply with the law. And because he cannot be trusted he must be supervised," he said.


scottish courts still keeping an eye on you Doris :)

[Jack Hackett]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

I've just about had it with the 'will of the people' and 'anti-democratic' mantra. 37% of the electorate voted to leave, which leaves 63% who DIDN'T . Any legally binding referendum would have kicked the result into the dustbin. They got away with it because the goalposts were moved.

You can take your self-righteous BS and shove it.

[danhibees1875]

I've just about had it with the 'will of the people' and 'anti-democratic' mantra. 37% of the electorate voted to leave, which leaves 63% who DIDN'T . Any legally binding referendum would have kicked the result into the dustbin. They got away with it because the goalposts were moved.

You can take your self-righteous BS and shove it.

I don't really like that argument; you'd have to acknowledge that an even smaller % actually voted to stay in the EU.

There's plenty reasonable arguments to be made elsewhere. The main one being that it's entirely not democratic to have a second referendum once the dust has settled and we actually have some facts to play with.

There's also a good arguement that nearly every poll since then has shown a swing to remaining; so the "will of the people" would seemed to have changed.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't really like that argument; you'd have to acknowledge that an even smaller % actually voted to stay in the EU.

There's plenty reasonable arguments to be made elsewhere. The main one being that it's entirely not democratic to have a second referendum once the dust has settled and we actually have some facts to play with.

There's also a good arguement that nearly every poll since then has shown a swing to remaining; so the "will of the people" would seemed to have changed.

See my post above. Link to the polls.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't really like that argument; you'd have to acknowledge that an even smaller % actually voted to stay in the EU.

There's plenty reasonable arguments to be made elsewhere. The main one being that it's entirely not democratic to have a second referendum once the dust has settled and we actually have some facts to play with.

There's also a good arguement that nearly every poll since then has shown a swing to remaining; so the "will of the people" would seemed to have changed.

:agree:

Don't vote = no say.

[JeMeSouviens]

According to Stephen Bush of the New Statesman, any CU amendment looks doomed to failure as Tories who back a CU don't want the deal to fall. They think they can accept it and push for a CU later when the future relationship is being negotiated.

Big risk as the future relationship will most likely be post-GE and if Johnson wins big he will hammering through hard as **** Brexit. :-(

[Jack Hackett]

What is really getting up my nose is the claim that 37% is the 'People' when it obviously isn't. Obvious to me, at least
Regardless of no vote=no say. They didn't vote to leave

[lapsedhibee]

What is really getting up my nose is the claim that 37% is the 'People' when it obviously isn't. Obvious to me, at least
Regardless of no vote=no say. They didn't vote to leave
Also the constant repetition of the mantra that everyone wants Brexit to be done (probably true) followed in quick succession by the (obviously false) claim that everyone wants to leave the EU. Say two things, one true and one false, together often enough and the link gives the lie a spurious credibility in the minds of a (too) large number of people. No idea why political commentators don't point up this sort of stuff more often, it's not rocket surgery.

[danhibees1875]

What is really getting up my nose is the claim that 37% is the 'People' when it obviously isn't. Obvious to me, at least
Regardless of no vote=no say. They didn't vote to leave

That's not how votes work though(unless there is a participation threshold explicitly included).

At the end of the day, I can understand the arguement that "the people" voted to leave.

There's no argument that more people voted to leave than to remain. I think there's more to be gained focusing elsewhere.

There's an argument that the basis used to select the electorate was flawed (EU citizens not being allowed a say - correct me if I'm wrong with that, and I think they were allowed to vote in the Scottish one).
There's an argument that promises made during the build up to the vote were lies (NHS, Immigration, Irish border, a stronger UK relationship, economic stability, it'll be easy, we'd be better off, no divorce bill, negotiate trade deals at the same time as negotiating to leave, etc ).
There's an arguement that the vote to leave wasn't clear on what leaving would actually entail (custom union, single market, hard border(s))
There's an argument that since the vote, opinion has changed (pretty much every poll taken since).
There's an argument that impacts on the economy and never ending debates have turned people off Brexit and would encourage more to vote (13 million eligible voters didn't vote, and another 5 million who could have registered to be eligible but didn't).

I'm sure there's more.

[Bristolhibby]

Also the constant repetition of the mantra that everyone wants Brexit to be done (probably true) followed in quick succession by the (obviously false) claim that everyone wants to leave the EU. Say two things, one true and one false, together often enough and the link gives the lie a spurious credibility in the minds of a (too) large number of people. No idea why political commentators don't point up this sort of stuff more often, it's not rocket surgery.

And also “just getting Brexit done” (Trade Mark - every Tory on any medium) is not getting it done. It’s phase one. The “getting it done” will take years to sort out a trade agreement. As mentioned previously a Tory majority will give us a hardest of brexits.

This must be fought at all costs.

J

[CloudSquall]

Lolz :greengrin

https://twitter.com/BercowSweary/status/1186291023053557761

[Northernhibee]

Rumours that the SNP may support an amendment to mandate Boris negotiating a customs union.

That would break the Tory party in half. ERG would never vote for it. Probable commons majority for it too.

Would be very interesting.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Orrrdahhhhhhh.

The wee man has spoken.

[Chorley Hibee]

Did Peter Bone just try and argue that because the house wasn't sure that the PM would choose to follow the law (and send an extension letter) that him following the law counts as an unforeseen event? 😂😂

[The Harp Awakes]

I don't agree. It's the fact that the majority of MPs are remainers that's holding things up. They think they know better than the people. And I'm not talking about the Johnsons, Rees Moggs and little Englanders of this world. I'm talking about those whose vote in 2016 seems to have been ignored by the smug, metropolitan, middle class elite who now regard themselves as the true voice of the people. In their determination to stop Brexit these self-appointed moral guardians of the nation have decided that the 'thick northerners' from swathes of the country untouched by economic growth simply didn't know what they were thinking when they voted for Brexit. They're used to having their views ignored which is why many saw leaving the EU as a way to finally have their voice heard. Yet despite winning the day in a democratic vote they're being ignored once again and talked down to by high-profile remainers. 'People's vote' indeed. The people voted three and half years ago, but in the eyes of those determined to subvert democracy by any means possible it was the 'wrong sort' of people who did so.

You're aiming the blame in completely the wrong direction.

Things were doomed from the start because the question in/out of the EU in 2016 was too simple; out could mean a multitude of Brexit scenarios. Theresa May adopted red lines around the customs union/single market form of Brexit, and favoured a harder form of Brexit in an attempt at pacifying the hard line Brexiteers, and keeping the Tory Party together. She refused to engage or compromise across the house and ended up alienating everyone. That is the main reason why we are where we are today. She should have recognised the country was almost split 50/50 leave/stay and went for a softer Brexit, which would only have alienated the extremists in the Tory Party.

Boris has come in like a bull in a china shop and is pushing an even harder Brexit and hoping it will get pushed through because everyone is now is sick of the subject. I actually hope he succeeds as it will speed up the breakup of the UK and Scotland will have independence sooner.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You're aiming the blame in completely the wrong direction.

Things were doomed from the start because the question in/out of the EU in 2016 was too simple; out could mean a multitude of Brexit scenarios. Theresa May adopted red lines around the customs union/single market option of Brexit, and favoured a harder form of Brexit in an attempt at pacifying the hard line Brexiteers, and keeping the Tory Party together. She refused to engage or compromise across the house and ended up alienating everyone. That is the main reason why we are where we are today. She should have recognised the country was almost split 50/50 leave/stay and went for a softer Brexit, which would only have alienated the extremists in the Tory Party.

Boris has come in like a bull in a china shop and is pushing an even harder Brexit and hoping it will get pushed threw because everyone is now is sick of the subject. I actually hope he succeeds as it will speed up the breakup of the UK and Scotland will have independence sooner.
Your analysis is correct, THA. The 48 per cent were completely sidelined as the ERG and their pals kept moving the goalposts for an increasingly hard Brexit, until we reached the point where they advocated a suicidal no deal. This was never mentioned in the referendum debate; most Brexiteers were saying we would stay in the single market and customs union, others we would find some equivalent e.g. the Norway model. It was never suggested we could end up as the only county on earth trading entirely under WTO rules. With the country split down the model, compromise was the only possible way out, but it has been eschewed.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Your analysis is correct, THA. The 48 per cent were completely sidelined as the ERG and their pals kept moving the goalposts for an increasingly hard Brexit, until we reached the point where they advocated a suicidal no deal. This was never mentioned in the referendum debate; most Brexiteers were saying we would stay in the single market and customs union, others we would find some equivalent e.g. the Norway model. It was never suggested we could end up as the only county on earth trading entirely under WTO rules. With the country split down the model, compromise was the only possible way out, but it has been eschewed.

Exactly, which is why the only way to solve this is to put Boris' deal to the electorate in a second referendum vs remain. That way remain is up against a concrete Brexit proposal.

Farage hated May's deal and this deal. Boris and co hated May's deal. Both were/are Brexit, but still had prominent Brexiteers angry. Nobody knew at the referendum what Brexit meant. Now that we have the WA published in full (and presumably an Economic impact assessment to follow shortly) the public can at last vote on Brexit from an informed position.

If Boris' deal wins a second referendum I'll be very disappointed, but will accept that the form of Brexit prescribed in the WA is the will of the people.

[G B Young]

1. The majority of the Brexit vote came from the South of England, not the North.
2. In what way exactly are Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, etc in any way non-metropolitan, non-smug, non-middle class* or non-elite?
3. Practically all the Tory Remainers voted for Brexit, many leading Remainers (inc a certain T May) negotiated and brought forward a deal. It was the Leave Tories who torpedoed it.


* well, I suppose you could argue some are upper class. :rolleyes:

The leave voted dominated pretty much across England, with the exception of London. Hence I'm generalising somewhat with the 'thick northerners' reference - it's more of a reference to the way the rest of England is perceived beyond the M25.

I agree Johnson & co are all of those things and I hold them responsible too for the shambles we find ourselves in. However, my post was in relation to those who I saw described earlier as the 'liberal commentariat' (whose leading lights are almost all well-off, middle class southerners) and whose mantra, as I mentioned in an earlier post, appears to be: 'The people have spoken. The people must be wrong.'

[Hibernia&Alba]

The leave voted dominated pretty much across England, with the exception of London. Hence I'm generalising somewhat with the 'thick northerners' reference - it's more of a reference to the way the rest of England is perceived beyond the M25.

I agree Johnson & co are all of those things and I hold them responsible too for the shambles we find ourselves in. However, my post was in relation to those who I saw described earlier as the 'liberal commentariat' (whose leading lights are almost all well-off, middle class southerners) and whose mantra, as I mentioned in an earlier post, appears to be: 'The people have spoken. The people must be wrong.'

Rural and smaller town northern England voted leave mainly, though some of the bigger cities did also. Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds all voted remain.

[G B Young]

What is really getting up my nose is the claim that 37% is the 'People' when it obviously isn't. Obvious to me, at least
Regardless of no vote=no say. They didn't vote to leave

Nor did they vote to remain. Who knows how they would have voted? Maybe they didn't give a f*** one way or the other.

By that token you could say that less than 40% of the Scottish electorate voted for independence in 2014 so why are we still banging on about another indyref?

As others have said, if you're on the electoral roll but don't exercise your democratic right to have your say, you say doesn't count.

[G B Young]

Your analysis is correct, THA. The 48 per cent were completely sidelined as the ERG and their pals kept moving the goalposts for an increasingly hard Brexit, until we reached the point where they advocated a suicidal no deal. This was never mentioned in the referendum debate; most Brexiteers were saying we would stay in the single market and customs union, others we would find some equivalent e.g. the Norway model. It was never suggested we could end up as the only county on earth trading entirely under WTO rules. With the country split down the model, compromise was the only possible way out, but it has been eschewed.

That's a matter of opinion and in my view the constantly repeated claim by remainers that the nation was 'lied to' or that the goalposts were shifted sums up their condescending assumption that leave voters were so gullible that they'd swallow anything a politician told them. Most likely voted leave because they distrusted politicians full stop and being talked down to by remainers about how wrong they were will only harden their belief that their vote has been ignored by a parliament whose members mostly stood on a mandate in 2017 of respecting the result of the Brexit referendum.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's a matter of opinion and in my view the constantly repeated claim by remainers that the nation was 'lied to' or that the goalposts were shifted sums up their condescending assumption that leave voters were so gullible that they'd swallow anything a politician told them. Most likely voted leave because they distrusted politicians full stop and being talked down to by remainers about how wrong they were will only harden their belief that their vote has been ignored by a parliament whose members mostly stood on a mandate in 2017 of respecting the result of the Brexit referendum.

I'm sure people voted Brexit for various reasons, some of which had no relevance to the EU. Often it was a cry for help from areas which have suffered under forty years of neoliberalism, and the Brexit vote was the opportunity to give the perceived establishment a poke in the eye. The reality, ironically, is that those very same post-industrial areas will be hurt most by Brexit.

[Bristolhibby]

That's a matter of opinion and in my view the constantly repeated claim by remainers that the nation was 'lied to' or that the goalposts were shifted sums up their condescending assumption that leave voters were so gullible that they'd swallow anything a politician told them. Most likely voted leave because they distrusted politicians full stop and being talked down to by remainers about how wrong they were will only harden their belief that their vote has been ignored by a parliament whose members mostly stood on a mandate in 2017 of respecting the result of the Brexit referendum.

Probably a mix of the two. Anger at being ignored, and being a bit simple in who and where to direct that anger.

“Take Back Control” is such an easy thing to sell to people who have never had control. Add to that a healthy bit of Island Mentality scepticism of Continental Europe and we have the perfect recipe for a binary BREXIT question.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I'm sure people voted Brexit for various reasons, some of which had no relevance to the EU. Often it was a cry for help from areas which have suffered under forty years of neoliberalism, and the Brexit vote was the opportunity to give the perceived establishment a poke in the eye. The reality, ironically, is that those very same post-industrial areas will be hurt most by Brexit.

Beat me to it.

J

[ballengeich]

That's a matter of opinion and in my view the constantly repeated claim by remainers that the nation was 'lied to' or that the goalposts were shifted sums up their condescending assumption that leave voters were so gullible that they'd swallow anything a politician told them. Most likely voted leave because they distrusted politicians full stop and being talked down to by remainers about how wrong they were will only harden their belief that their vote has been ignored by a parliament whose members mostly stood on a mandate in 2017 of respecting the result of the Brexit referendum.

I've considerable sympathy for your views about the way leave voters have been regarded. I've heard a fair bit of intellectual snobbery from people whose political views I'm generally in agreement with and have had some arguments about the subject.

However, the vote was three years ago, and to "respect the result of the referendum" there should be a confirmatory referendum, asking whether the deal that's been negotiated is what people now want, or whether they might have collectively changed their minds. There's at least a couple of million people have left the voters' roll since, with a similar number joining so the people who're here now should get their say.

If you take out any significant financial product in the UK, there's a cooling-off period during which you can cancel the contract. To not have something similar on such a fundamental change to our position is the world is undemocratic, particularly as recent opinion polls indicate that a majority would now prefer to stay.

[Jack Hackett]

Nor did they vote to remain. Who knows how they would have voted? Maybe they didn't give a f*** one way or the other.

By that token you could say that less than 40% of the Scottish electorate voted for independence in 2014 so why are we still banging on about another indyref?

As others have said, if you're on the electoral roll but don't exercise your democratic right to have your say, you say doesn't count.

So why not ask them again? Given that the gravity of the situation is pulling the UK apart, people are more focused on the possible implications than they were over 3 years ago. When a minority of the electorate get to implement something so crucial to a nations future, democracy is not being served. Brings to mind the way bozo was dumped on the nation by a tiny minority of the electorate

Things have changed. Not least in the demographics of the electorate. Millions of kids (1.4m up to June 18), who didn't have a say are now eligible to vote. Should they be ignored even though it affects them deeply? We don't know how they would vote, but we can take an educated guess. They should be heard, especially as nothing is, as it stands, final. I've been hearing 'Will of the people' for 3 years now... let them prove it in the only fully credible way possible.

This woman sums it up perfectly... https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sky-news-rachel-on-peoples-vote-1-6331995

[Bostonhibby]

I'm sure people voted Brexit for various reasons, some of which had no relevance to the EU. Often it was a cry for help from areas which have suffered under forty years of neoliberalism, and the Brexit vote was the opportunity to give the perceived establishment a poke in the eye. The reality, ironically, is that those very same post-industrial areas will be hurt most by Brexit.Excellent post, what I've been thinking, and kind of trying to say down here but sometimes you've just got to let the mess happen.

The problem is likely to be who is to blame if the post Brexit world isn't what many voted for? New/different scapegoats will be required.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Excellent post, what I've been thinking, and kind of trying to say down here but sometimes you've just got to let the mess happen.

The problem is likely to be who is to blame if the post Brexit world isn't what many voted for? New/different scapegoats will be required.

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Exactly what I suggested a few days ago. When we can't blame Europeans, it's likely we will erroneously return to blaming black and Asian immigrants for our economic problems, influenced by the right wing press and the Tories. The real issue, the economic despair, won't be analysed.

[Bostonhibby]

Exactly what I suggested a few days ago. When we can't blame Europeans, it's likely we will erroneously return to blaming black and Asian immigrants for our economic problems, influenced by the right wing press and the Tories. The real issue, the economic despair, won't be analysed.As recently as last weekend whilst watching the rugby I had to endure an England fan explaining how the "next big challenge" is the Indians and Chinese getting easy passage into the country taking up all the skilled technology jobs and the Vietnamese (yes Vietnamese) replacing all the EU workers in the agricultural jobs.

It's sometimes better to let the car crash rather than grabbing the steering wheel.

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[Hibrandenburg]

As recently as last weekend whilst watching the rugby I had to endure an England fan explaining how the "next big challenge" is the Indians and Chinese getting easy passage into the country taking up all the skilled technology jobs and the Vietnamese (yes Vietnamese) replacing all the EU workers in the agricultural jobs.

It's sometimes better to let the car crash rather than grabbing the steering wheel.

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That's where I'm at, I was and still am of the belief that the EU has been massively beneficial to the UK as a whole but especially Scotland..... BUT.....If after 3 years of wall to wall discussion on Brexit and where all the lies and myths told by vote leave have been debunked, if you still believe that Angela Merkel is a Nazi, you're kids will be conscripted into an EU army or mainland Europe is being attacked by an army disguised as refugees, then the only thing that will change your mind is actually witnessing the results of the car crash you want to happen and to be honest you deserve it.

[G B Young]

Probably a mix of the two. Anger at being ignored, and being a bit simple in who and where to direct that anger.

“Take Back Control” is such an easy thing to sell to people who have never had control. Add to that a healthy bit of Island Mentality scepticism of Continental Europe and we have the perfect recipe for a binary BREXIT question.

J

Again the implication that they weren't intelligent enough to know what they were voting for.

As far as I'm aware the fundamental principles of the UK political system include equal political rights for over-18s and majority rule. Much as remainers might welcome it (bearing in mind they act as though they have a monopoly on rational thinking), there is not a stipulation that voters must be well enough informed for a result to be deemed valid. Such a principle would be elitist in the extreme.

[JeMeSouviens]

Again the implication that they weren't intelligent enough to know what they were voting for.

As far as I'm aware the fundamental principles of the UK political system include equal political rights for over-18s and majority rule. Much as remainers might welcome it (bearing in mind they act as though they have a monopoly on rational thinking), there is not a stipulation that voters must be well enough informed for a result to be deemed valid. Such a principle would be elitist in the extreme.

Frankly, the vast majority of the electorate of both leave and remain sides were and are fantastically ill equipped to make this decision.

Probably the majority of MPs as well.

[Hibrandenburg]

Frankly, the vast majority of the electorate of both leave and remain sides were and are fantastically ill equipped to make this decision.

Probably the majority of MPs as well.

:agree: This in buckets.

[Bristolhibby]

Again the implication that they weren't intelligent enough to know what they were voting for.

As far as I'm aware the fundamental principles of the UK political system include equal political rights for over-18s and majority rule. Much as remainers might welcome it (bearing in mind they act as though they have a monopoly on rational thinking), there is not a stipulation that voters must be well enough informed for a result to be deemed valid. Such a principle would be elitist in the extreme.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. However it is also a combination of being ignored and marginalised.

Being spoon fed nonsense and playing on fears (Turkey, EU Army, faceless Eurocrats) was part of the deception.

Glad that you agree that stupid people voted in the BREXIT referendum.

J

[Ozyhibby]

WAB that gets voted on tomorrow allows PM to leave with no deal at end of next year without agreement for parliament.


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[grunt]

Much as remainers might welcome it (bearing in mind they act as though they have a monopoly on rational thinking), there is not a stipulation that voters must be well enough informed for a result to be deemed valid. Such a principle would be elitist in the extreme.
And you think it's therefore a good idea to determine the future course of the country based on the views of people who are not informed of the issues and who don't understand the complexity and consequences of the thing they are voting for?

This is why we have a representative democracy.

[G B Young]

Frankly, the vast majority of the electorate of both leave and remain sides were and are fantastically ill equipped to make this decision.

Probably the majority of MPs as well.

Can't really disagree with you there.

[G B Young]

And you think it's therefore a good idea to determine the future course of the country based on the views of people who are not informed of the issues and who don't understand the complexity and consequences of the thing they are voting for?

This is why we have a representative democracy.

I didn't say it was a good idea. I think the decision to hold the referendum was a disastrous idea, but all votes are equal and majority rule is at the heart of our democracy, like it or not. Unless that changes I believe the result has to be respected by MPs (the majority of whom, as I mentioned, were elected on a mandate to do just that).

[grunt]

I didn't say it was a good idea. I think the decision to hold the referendum was a disastrous idea, but all votes are equal and majority rule is at the heart of our democracy, like it or not. Unless that changes I believe the result has to be respected by MPs (the majority of whom, as I mentioned, were elected on a mandate to do just that).

All votes are most decidedly not equal. As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, this vote was advisory.

It's also incorrect to say that majority rule is the decider in this case - in most organisations a super majority is required to implement a major constitutional change of this nature. Try changing the rules of your golf club with a 52:48 majority.

And lastly, I'll be damned if I'll respect any vote won on the back of blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation which was demonstrably the case here. I'm disgusted that you even use the word "respected".

[G B Young]

WAB that gets voted on tomorrow allows PM to leave with no deal at end of next year without agreement for parliament.


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While there's no clear majority, it seems voters continue to support the PM's deal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50123223

[G B Young]

All votes are most decidedly not equal. As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, this vote was advisory.

It's also incorrect to say that majority rule is the decider in this case - in most organisations a super majority is required to implement a major constitutional change of this nature. Try changing the rules of your golf club with a 52:48 majority.

And lastly, I'll be damned if I'll respect any vote won on the back of blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation which was demonstrably the case here. I'm disgusted that you even use the word "respected".

How is it incorrect? I'm not aware of any threshold or 'super majority' stipulation that was required for the Brexit referendum. I'll bow to your knowledge on golf club rules though.

Blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation? Sounds like the average general election to me - or, dare I say it, Scottish independence referendum. The way remainers hark on about this would have you believe that the referendum was a jury trial, with all involved required to tell nothing but the truth.

It's not my intention to disgust you, simply to put across my opinion. I don't have a problem if you disagree with it.

[The Harp Awakes]

While there's no clear majority, it seems voters continue to support the PM's deal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50123223

Interesting discussions on the deal and the withdrawal bill tonight on Newsnight. As MPs are reading the detailed bill for the first time it seems there are some surprises.

One of which is that all goods leaving NI for the GB mainland will require exit declarations. The Brexit Minister didn't even know that himself earlier today and had to correct himself in front of a select Committee.

Apparently the DUP are raging tonight and are going to attempt to wreck the bill at every opportunity. Some papers reporting Boris now realises the deal is a dead duck and is going to pull it leaving the pathway open for a Brexit extension and GE.

[lapsedhibee]

Some papers reporting Boris now realises the deal is a dead duck and is going to pull it leaving the pathway open for a Brexit extension and GE.

Cummings maybe just explaining it to him now, after allowing him to waffle for half a week about how brilliant it is.

[Frankhfc]

All votes are most decidedly not equal. As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, this vote was advisory.

It's also incorrect to say that majority rule is the decider in this case - in most organisations a super majority is required to implement a major constitutional change of this nature. Try changing the rules of your golf club with a 52:48 majority.

And lastly, I'll be damned if I'll respect any vote won on the back of blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation which was demonstrably the case here. I'm disgusted that you even use the word "respected".

I'd be happy for a 'super majority' built in to any future indy ref 2. It would be progressive for instance for the snp to stipulate a majority for independence must be higher than 60% of which would eliminate any doubt of the result and repudiate any calls for a best of three.

[Glory Lurker]

I'd be happy for a 'super majority' built in to any future indy ref 2. It would be progressive for instance for the snp to stipulate a majority for independence must be higher than 60% of which would eliminate any doubt of the result and repudiate any calls for a best of three.

There is no constitutional basis for a super majority threshold.

[Callum_62]

How is it incorrect? I'm not aware of any threshold or 'super majority' stipulation that was required for the Brexit referendum. I'll bow to your knowledge on golf club rules though.

Blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation? Sounds like the average general election to me - or, dare I say it, Scottish independence referendum. The way remainers hark on about this would have you believe that the referendum was a jury trial, with all involved required to tell nothing but the truth.

It's not my intention to disgust you, simply to put across my opinion. I don't have a problem if you disagree with it.Didn't the leave campaign literally beak the law?

What would have happened if this ref was actually legally binding?

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[Fife-Hibee]

The comments on this are delicious. :drool:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2427967980806544

I'm really starting to warm to Ms Cherry. :love ya!:

[Future17]

All votes are most decidedly not equal. As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, this vote was advisory.

It's also incorrect to say that majority rule is the decider in this case - in most organisations a super majority is required to implement a major constitutional change of this nature. Try changing the rules of your golf club with a 52:48 majority.

And lastly, I'll be damned if I'll respect any vote won on the back of blatant lies, gerrymandering and voter manipulation which was demonstrably the case here. I'm disgusted that you even use the word "respected".

Gerrymandering?

[grunt]

Gerrymandering?

Excluding those significantly affected by the result - EU members living in the UK.

[grunt]

Why can't the Parliament vote on the WAB within two days?



This 115 page Bill implements a 541 page agreement, which in turn relates to hundreds of UK and EU pieces of legislation and how each legal provision is affected by Brexit.

Every single impact has to be got right.

Immensely complex and time-consuming exercise.

[Hibrandenburg]

Excluding those significantly affected by the result - EU members living in the UK.

Basically the vast majority of those effected the most by Brexit didn't have a say in Brexit. Not only all those EU citizens who took advantage of the free movement regulations by living and working in the UK but also many UK citizens who have made their lives in the EU have been left adrift of the democratic process. Millions of people have had to sit and watch as their life plans have been left in tatters. I keep hearing about the younger generation being robbed of their future, sure they will be restricted in opportunities but will be able to adapt their life plans accordingly, but those whose life plans are now coming to fruition have been left high and dry. Brexit is not only catastrophic for people's futures it's also a living nightmare for many people's present.

[grunt]

Brexit is not only catastrophic for people's futures it's also a living nightmare for many people's present.
Thanks for your post. I am sadly aware of that. Just before you posted I was reading this depressing thread on Twitter


https://twitter.com/WTomaney/status/1186360477091274757?s=20

[CloudSquall]

The comments on this are delicious. :drool:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2427967980806544

I'm really starting to warm to Ms Cherry. :love ya!:

The frothing at the mouth is hilarious, you can always be guaranteed a "rebuild Hadrian's wall" with no apparent awareness of where that wall actually was.

After "Fat Eck" and "wee jimmy krankie" I wonder what Cherry's nickname of choice will be amongst the Daily Heil legion?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c3b46d78aef1ea87dabbea1d771f278e.jpg

Looks like they now have the votes to get it through.


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[Bostonhibby]

The frothing at the mouth is hilarious, you can always be guaranteed a "rebuild Hadrian's wall" with no apparent awareness of where that wall actually was.

After "Fat Eck" and "wee jimmy krankie" I wonder what Cherry's nickname of choice will be amongst the Daily Heil legion?Probably mean Adrian's wall, he's hoping to get a look in when all those highly skilled, reliable, cheap EU tradesmen are all deported on 1st November like in his dream[emoji6]

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[SHODAN]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c3b46d78aef1ea87dabbea1d771f278e.jpg

Looks like they now have the votes to get it through.


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I wonder if any of those Labour MPs care that they're guaranteeing a Johnson majority next election by passing this deal.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c3b46d78aef1ea87dabbea1d771f278e.jpg

Looks like they now have the votes to get it through.


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Even if it goes through, that's not the vote that counts today. The key vote (assuming the deal vote passes) is the one on the 3 day timetable to pass everything. That looks like being voted down meaning Brexit won't happen by 31 October. In that event it is almost certain that Boris will pull the bill, a Brexit extension will be granted by the EU and a GE will follow.

[Ozyhibby]

Even if it goes through, that's not the vote that counts today. The key vote (assuming the deal vote passes) is the one on the 3 day timetable to pass everything. That looks like being voted down meaning Brexit won't happen by 31 October. In that event it is almost certain that Boris will pull the bill, a Brexit extension will be granted by the EU and a GE will follow.

A win today gives momentum though.


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[Fife-Hibee]

I wonder if any of those Labour MPs care that they're guaranteeing a Johnson majority next election by passing this deal.

As long as they're sticking it to that Jeremy Corbyn the misery and suffering of the poorest is a nominal price to pay.

[Ozyhibby]

As long as they're sticking it to that Jeremy Corbyn the misery and suffering of the poorest is a nominal price to pay.

You think the poor don’t suffer under socialism?[emoji23] The poor in Venezuela seem to be suffering plenty.


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[The Harp Awakes]

A win today gives momentum though.


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Maybe initially, but once the opposition try to force through amendments, some of which might get voted through aided and abetted by the DUP, e.g., full UK customs union, or it is not done and dusted in 3 days (likely), Boris will pull the Bill and we will be back to square 1 and a GE.

[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c3b46d78aef1ea87dabbea1d771f278e.jpg

Looks like they now have the votes to get it through.


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Would I be right in thinking this would be his first victory in the House of Commons?

[SHODAN]

As long as they're sticking it to that Jeremy Corbyn the misery and suffering of the poorest is a nominal price to pay.

What's farcial is that immediately after the new leader is elected when Corbyn resigns (Cooper etc), we'll have 4+ years of opinion polls with Labour miles ahead despite having a large Johnson majority and the country crashing and burning.

[Fife-Hibee]

You think the poor don’t suffer under socialism?[emoji23] The poor in Venezuela seem to be suffering plenty.


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They were doing just fine until the US decided they required some "demoracy". Now they get to enjoy the same "improvements" Libya has seen.

[Fife-Hibee]

What's farcial is that immediately after the new leader is elected when Corbyn resigns (Cooper etc), we'll have 4+ years of opinion polls with Labour miles ahead despite having a large Johnson majority and the country crashing and burning.

What's even more farcial is that after another 4+ years of tory government, we'll have yet another 4+ years of tory government on top of that in the guise of "New Labour".

Electable but ultimately pointless.

[southsider]

Only way is Independence .To hell with Johnston & that skinny get wi the 8 names.

[Ozyhibby]

They were doing just fine until the US decided they required some "demoracy". Now they get to enjoy the same "improvements" Libya has seen.

When were they doing ok? What year?


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[CloudSquall]

Latest YouGov poll,


Con - 37%
Lab - 22%
Lib Dem - 19%
Brexit Party - 11%
Green - 7%
Other - 5%

[Fife-Hibee]

When were they doing ok? What year?


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They were doing fine until the US/Saudi tag team on the oil industry in a failed attempt to destabilize the Russian economy. It's they who have blood on their hands, not the socialist government of Venezuela.

[Onceinawhile]

Maybe initially, but once the opposition try to force through amendments, some of which might get voted through aided and abetted by the DUP, e.g., full UK customs union, or it is not done and dusted in 3 days (likely), Boris will pull the Bill and we will be back to square 1 and a GE.

B. I. N. G. O.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50142367

[Ozyhibby]

They were doing fine until the US/Saudi tag team on the oil industry in a failed attempt to destabilize the Russian economy. It's they who have blood on their hands, not the socialist government of Venezuela.

Eh? So socialism can only work if oil prices are high and you have lots of it?


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[The Harp Awakes]

Latest YouGov poll,


Con - 37%
Lab - 22%
Lib Dem - 19%
Brexit Party - 11%
Green - 7%
Other - 5%

On the face of it, those figures look pretty good for the Tories but what matters is how they translate into seats.

If the Tories lose about 10 seats in Scotland to the SNP as widely predicted, they need to gain them from elsewhere. Certainly likely that they could make gains from Labour in constituencies which voted leave, but the Tories could also be vulnerable in other seats from a surge to the Lib Dems from remain voters and are likely to suffer from their vote being split by the Brexit Party as well (who hate Boris' deal).

Could very possibly be a hung parliament again with significant gains for the SNP and Lib Dems. Depends on how much the Labour vote collapses; if it completely disintegrates then the Tories could be getting towards their majority.

[Fife-Hibee]

Eh? So socialism can only work if oil prices are high and you have lots of it?

Countries have to play to their strengths. Venezuela is one of the most oil dependant nations on earth. Capitalism wouldn't magically give them better natural resources to work with. Although they'd certaintly be treated better by countries obsessed with stamping out all forms of socialism so they can be replaced with corporate monopolies instead.

[mjhibby]

On the face of it, those figures look pretty good for the Tories but what matters is how they translate into seats.

If the Tories lose about 10 seats in Scotland to the SNP as widely predicted, they need to gain them from elsewhere. Certainly likely that they could make gains from Labour in constituencies which voted leave, but the Tories could also be vulnerable in other seats from a surge to the Lib Dems from remain voters and are likely to suffer from their vote being split by the Brexit Party as well (who hate Boris' deal).

Could very possibly be a hung parliament again with significant gains for the SNP and Lib Dems. Depends on how much the Labour vote collapses; if it completely disintegrates then the Tories could be getting towards their majority.

This poll is way outside most polls. The average poll lead is around 8 points and we'll short of a majority. Polls are irrelevant. May was 20 points ahead last time and that didn't get them a majority. We shall see.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This poll is way outside most polls. The average poll lead is around 8 points and we'll short of a majority. Polls are irrelevant. May was 20 points ahead last time and that didn't get them a majority. We shall see.

True, with everything so volatile at the moment, polling is very difficult. As you say, they were miles out at the last general election, and they got the Brexit referendum wrong. A lot of tactical voting will be involved in the next general election, largely influenced by Brexit. I think the we can safely say the Tories are going to lose almost all their Scottish seats, but everything else is difficult to predict with confidence.

[Hibbyradge]

Get it up you, Johnson.

[Peevemor]

Excellent!

[Peevemor]

Nice screw up by the beeb

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c105eb6b5ed4e13f8c7937ccd616a1b5.jpg

[Hibbyradge]

Nice screw up by the beeb

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/c105eb6b5ed4e13f8c7937ccd616a1b5.jpg

:doh:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ah, so Bozo is 'pausing' the Withdrawal Bill until the EU decides upon an extension. That will be the extension he said he would rather "die in a ditch" than request.

He is a shambles of a man. He has to go.

[Chorley Hibee]

Remember Johnson told us earlier today he would "pull the deal" and seek a general election?

Yet another lie!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Remember Johnson told us earlier today he would "pull the deal" and seek a general election?

Yet another lie!

He is a compulsive liar who jumps from one thing to the next without any embarrassment at all. Shameless guy.

[Callum_62]

Remember Johnson told us earlier today he would "pull the deal" and seek a general election?

Yet another lie!Seems like they are saying if EU grant extension then they will go for GE before christmas

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[Fife-Hibee]

I wonder if we'll find Johnson dead in a ditch now as per his preference.

[G B Young]

Encouragement to be taken though from the fact we finally have some momentum in the shape of approval by Parliament for a Brexit deal, bearing in mind the multiple rejections of May's deal.

With the DUP refusing to budge, Labour rebels were essential to the bill's passage tonight:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2019/10/22/b1d73472-f26e-44ec-8790-c1c907e5e2a4.png

[jonty]

So Johnson finally gets a victory in parliament but then throws a huffy because he cant railroad it through.
So, as you were then.

[Slavers]

I do wonder if Macron will veto an extension.

[CloudSquall]

When will it all end? :boo hoo::boo hoo::boo hoo:

[Bristolhibby]

I do wonder if Macron will veto an extension.

Na. He won’t. The EU is expansionist. The strength is through the collective. Nobody wants one of the largest members to leave.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/1e68cde3da0d2ee259b1f54d54df97a0.jpg


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[Slavers]

Na. He won’t. The EU is expansionist. The strength is through the collective. Nobody wants one of the largest members to leave.

J

I would not be so sure about that considering Macron recently veto'd expanding the EU by stopping the accession of North Macedonia and Albania.

https://www.ft.com/content/eda39e1e-f3eb-11e9-b018-3ef8794b17c6

He seems to be dead against an extension without good reason.

https://www.cityam.com/emmanuel-macron-says-he-will-veto-brexit-delay/

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/00ff35045694669d096a3f96e6c6755d.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

I would not be so sure about that considering Macron recently veto'd expanding the EU by stopping the accession of North Macedonia and Albania.

https://www.ft.com/content/eda39e1e-f3eb-11e9-b018-3ef8794b17c6

He seems to be dead against an extension without good reason.

https://www.cityam.com/emmanuel-macron-says-he-will-veto-brexit-delay/

A GE should count as a good reason.


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[southsider]

When will it all end? :boo hoo::boo hoo::boo hoo:

With Johnston dead in a ditch ? Hopefully. I hate him.

[Moulin Yarns]

No 10 confirms tonight after the vote they’ll try to push for election if EU offers delay

[JeMeSouviens]

A GE should count as a good reason.


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Looks the most likely. Bring on another hung parliament. :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Corbyn said hed ok a GE after extension so looks like we'll have a single issue election before Christmas.

Game on!

[JeMeSouviens]

Newsnight - yet another ****ing vox-pop of ****ing diehard leaver pensioners in a diehard leave area. How many ****ing times?

[BroxburnHibee]

Newsnight - yet another ****ing vox-pop of ****ing diehard leaver pensioners in a diehard leave area. How many ****ing times?

BBC aren't even trying to hide it now

[southsider]

Who cares what they think. IndiRet 2 is what counts. England is a lost cause we need to show some balls and vote YES.

[GreenLake]

Great news. Hopefully a second referendum and let only British Citizens vote.

[Mr Grieves]

These two articles are making the same point - journalists at the BBC, ITV and the papers are spewing out propaganda for the government.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/meet-dominic-slack-oxley-the-biggest-source-of-fake-news-in-britain/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Bristolhibby]

No 10 confirms tonight after the vote they’ll try to push for election if EU offers delay

And it will be voted down. Again. Johnston has to squirm. Wait until 1st November then get the election called. Take away from him any idea that he managed to “Get Brexit done”.

J

[G B Young]

And it will be voted down. Again. Johnston has to squirm. Wait until 1st November then get the election called. Take away from him any idea that he managed to “Get Brexit done”.

J

Lib Dems and SNP must be tempted to vote for an election now.

Like it or not, Johnson has achieved something May never came close to - securing the backing of the Commons for a Brexit deal. He will certainly be able to throw a lot of weight behind the 'parliament thwarting the will of the people' mantra going into a general election.

[Bristolhibby]

Lib Dems and SNP must be tempted to vote for an election now.

Like it or not, Johnson has achieved something May never came close to - securing the backing of the Commons for a Brexit deal. He will certainly be able to throw a lot of weight behind the 'parliament thwarting the will of the people' mantra going into a general election.

They won’t. He has to die in a ditch first.

Regardless of what a No. 10 Source says.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Lib Dems and SNP must be tempted to vote for an election now.

Like it or not, Johnson has achieved something May never came close to - securing the backing of the Commons for a Brexit deal. He will certainly be able to throw a lot of weight behind the 'parliament thwarting the will of the people' mantra going into a general election.

Now I'm confused. The house of commons backs the deal negotiated by Johnson (the will of the people) but he will use 'parliament thwarted the will of the people' in a general election.

How does that work? What does it even mean?

[Fife-Hibee]

Lib Dems and SNP must be tempted to vote for an election now.

Like it or not, Johnson has achieved something May never came close to - securing the backing of the Commons for a Brexit deal. He will certainly be able to throw a lot of weight behind the 'parliament thwarting the will of the people' mantra going into a general election.

Johnson hasn't achieved anything. The supporting of the bill combined with the thwarting of the timetable was purely tactical.

[lapsedhibee]

Tom Peck's quite good today on the continuing madness resulting from the 'No 10 source' strategy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-house-of-commons-dominic-cummings-a9167056.html

[BroxburnHibee]

And it will be voted down. Again. Johnston has to squirm. Wait until 1st November then get the election called. Take away from him any idea that he managed to “Get Brexit done”.

J

His Halloween deadline is all but dust now.

Only way it could still happen is if EU reject the extension request but that's highly unlikely.

Think an election needs at least 6 weeks prep so even if it goes ahead we're into December.

Should be motivating the troops now as I think this is nailed on what's gonna happen.

[SHODAN]

Unless Corbyn and Swinson stop behaving like children and make an election pact then we'll have a Johnson majority just in time for Christmas.

[Hibrandenburg]

Decent read.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?fbclid=IwAR35yOTien8abqo3pWL-fv0MEDkyI3AIYejSond4MwQASX4Cscy56yx0lmU

[Fife-Hibee]

Unless Corbyn and Swinson stop behaving like children and make an election pact then we'll have a Johnson majority just in time for Christmas.

Corbyn hasn't ruled out a pact with Swinson. Swinson has however ruled out a pact with Corbyn as it doesn't serve her personal interests.

[Cataplana]

If people want to make amendments to the bill, they have to pass the bill first. If they don't think two days is long enough for that, then they vote down the timetable.

I actually understood what was happening for once.

[BroxburnHibee]

If people want to make amendments to the bill, they have to pass the bill first. If they don't think two days is long enough for that, then they vote down the timetable.

I actually understood what was happening for once.

Yep but Johnson the liar didn't want his bill scrutinised.

You don't need much imagination to wonder why.

[JeMeSouviens]

Johnson/Cummings meeting Corbyn/Milne currently to discuss a possible compromise timetable ...


Edit:



Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak

Hear nothing was agreed at PM-Corbyn meeting - Labour wanted to discuss a different timetable for Brexit bill, govt wanted to know what Lab would do if the extension is vetoed - sounds like neither side came away with much

[G B Young]

Johnson hasn't achieved anything. The supporting of the bill combined with the thwarting of the timetable was purely tactical.

Bearing in mind the opposition parties plus the DUP had pledged to vote against the deal, presumably the 'tactic' was to see it fail? It only passed thanks to support from nearly 20 Labour rebels.

Or was this the Labour 'nudge and wink' Nicola Sturgeon was referring to?

[Ozyhibby]

Bearing in mind the opposition parties plus the DUP had pledged to vote against the deal, presumably the 'tactic' was to see it fail? It only passed thanks to support from nearly 20 Labour rebels.

Or was this the Labour 'nudge and wink' Nicola Sturgeon was referring to?

Only 5 of those rebels voted for the timetable so I would say their support was very soft and likely only for the sake of telling their leave constituents that they voted for the deal in the upcoming GE.


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[The Harp Awakes]

Corbyn hasn't ruled out a pact with Swinson. Swinson has however ruled out a pact with Corbyn as it doesn't serve her personal interests.

It would be suicide for the LDs to form any kind of arrangement with Corbyn primarily because of all the Tory marginal seats they hope to win in the South of England at the next GE.

[Jack Hackett]

Decent read.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?fbclid=IwAR35yOTien8abqo3pWL-fv0MEDkyI3AIYejSond4MwQASX4Cscy56yx0lmU

Quora is my go to site for intelligent and considered debate on brexit... With one or two contributer exceptions

[G B Young]

It would be suicide for the LDs to form any kind of arrangement with Corbyn primarily because of all the Tory marginal seats they hope to win in the South of England at the next GE.

Certainly doesn't sound as if Swinson's relationship with Corbyn is likely to improve any time soon judging by this morning's exchange in the Commons:



Lib Dems: 'Corbyn is a Brexiteer'


Speaking after Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn's meeting this morning, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson said: "Would the prime minister like to express his gratitude to the 19 Labour MPs who voted for his deal last night and the leader of the opposition for meeting with him this morning to help push through his bad Brexit deal?
"This is yet more clear proof that Jeremy Corbyn wants to deliver Brexit.
She added: "It seems that Jeremy Corbyn has thrown Mr Johnson another lifeline this morning, as six white men met to discuss pushing through a Brexit deal which will wreck our country.
“Mr Corbyn is a Brexiteer, and Remainers won't forget if a shady backroom deal between Johnson and Corbyn helps to deliver Brexit."

[SHODAN]

It would be suicide for the LDs to form any kind of arrangement with Corbyn primarily because of all the Tory marginal seats they hope to win in the South of England at the next GE.

A fair point. Just goes to show that at the end of the day she cares more about her own party's performance than actually stopping Brexit.

[marinello59]

Corbyn hasn't ruled out a pact with Swinson. Swinson has however ruled out a pact with Corbyn as it doesn't serve her personal interests.

Corbyn has said he would consider an election pact with another party? When was this?

[marinello59]

Certainly doesn't sound as if Swinson's relationship with Corbyn is likely to improve any time soon judging by this morning's exchange in the Commons:



Lib Dems: 'Corbyn is a Brexiteer'


Speaking after Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn's meeting this morning, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson said: "Would the prime minister like to express his gratitude to the 19 Labour MPs who voted for his deal last night and the leader of the opposition for meeting with him this morning to help push through his bad Brexit deal?
"This is yet more clear proof that Jeremy Corbyn wants to deliver Brexit.
She added: "It seems that Jeremy Corbyn has thrown Mr Johnson another lifeline this morning, as six white men met to discuss pushing through a Brexit deal which will wreck our country.
“Mr Corbyn is a Brexiteer, and Remainers won't forget if a shady backroom deal between Johnson and Corbyn helps to deliver Brexit."






She’s right.

[CloudSquall]

C
She added: "It seems that Jeremy Corbyn has thrown Mr Johnson another lifeline this morning, as six white men met to discuss pushing through a Brexit deal which will wreck our country.





Cringe.

[Cataplana]

Cringe.

Is she Kez in disguise?

[DaveF]

She’s right.

Possibly but what's the point of the white men comment?

[Slavers]

Possibly but what's the point of the white men comment?

She is clearly racist and implying that being white is a negative attribute in this situation.

[Mantis Toboggan]

She is clearly racist and implying that being white is a negative attribute in this situation.

Clearly...

[Moulin Yarns]

Possibly but what's the point of the white men comment?

Like Slaver's slavering, it is a poor attempt to point out the narrow group directly influential around the Prime Minister, that there are no 'non-white' or female representatives of the Prime Minister's inner circle. But then it was ever thus! It is representative of the elite Etonian/Bullingdon Club Tory cabinet.

[Cataplana]

She is clearly racist and implying that being white is a negative attribute in this situation.

I think she's suggesting that lack of diversity might be behind a bad decision. I also think she's admitting she has just noticed.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://2w6kxc22rrr9mabqt1mglgait6-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brexiter-tattoo-small.jpg


diddums :)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ian Blackford sent Bercow a letter today... :)

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73460710_143456793715903_4549714850141437952_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_eui2=AeH55fAHAw6pu1w_AjC4Ufxjq7hHhsi1fjO4jAera IGcaRdOqGmjsMQ-0LooWfzZIjUI2HfOxgOqagBpPx_2CzPTIpOsEe0TUFZ-Phq0zY2JYg&_nc_oc=AQn95WaC-rTDy2dyKTd_zKk1FzgfkQvBYKB6D9dqyoYKq61iyqW_-VhMLB7AvvYtLow&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=cd88eb4a1c9e6b3c0946e4c5bee22045&oe=5E5F2018


he should have sent another one asking that all SNP MP's that speak in the HoC does so without heckling from the vile swine that sit on the opposite benches :agree:

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn has said he would consider an election pact with another party? When was this?

He hasn't ruled it out, Swinson has. Come to terms with it.

[The Harp Awakes]

Yep but Johnson the liar didn't want his bill scrutinised.

You don't need much imagination to wonder why.

I find it interesting that Corbyn and the Labour Party are falling over themselves to agree a new timetable with Boris for pushing the deal through. Add into the equation that Ken Clarke, the most anti Brexit of Tories, is going out of his way to make similar noises.

Sounds to me like the opposition may think they have the numbers to amend the Bill and turn it into a soft Brexit, e.g., customs union and single market for all the UK and get it passed. That would give the opposition the morale high ground (sorted Brexit), and send the ERG and hard Brexiteers into a tailspin leading to civil war in the Tory party again. Would certainly put the opposition parties on much better footing heading into a general election.

Will Boris fall into the bear trap I wonder? The fact he's dithering may indicate he smells a rat.

[cabbageandribs1875]

jo swinson's ToryLites abstained from a motion by labour earlier bringing all NHS services back entirely into public hands and protect the NHS from post-brexit trade agreements, the motion was backed by SNP,Plaid Cymru,Greens.


https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinsons-lib-dems-refuse-to-support-motion-to-halt-nhs-privatisation/?fbclid=IwAR1wwk8M3ikosizZdOmJBE59vgrPYmnx9oMioiwM GIzYX__BIp5EKt6rSU0


'kin shame on them :bitchy:

[Mibbes Aye]

jo swinson's ToryLites abstained from a motion by labour earlier bringing all NHS services back entirely into public hands and protect the NHS from post-brexit trade agreements, the motion was backed by SNP,Plaid Cymru,Greens.


https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinsons-lib-dems-refuse-to-support-motion-to-halt-nhs-privatisation/?fbclid=IwAR1wwk8M3ikosizZdOmJBE59vgrPYmnx9oMioiwM GIzYX__BIp5EKt6rSU0


'kin shame on them :bitchy:

It is interesting the SNP backed it because under their watch the Scottish NHS has given at least £130 million of public money in the last three years to private healthcare providers. The true figure is a lot higher as the figure I cited doesn’t include NHS Lothian or NHS Highland, as they didn’t provide the necessary information.

I suppose the questions you have to ask are why did the Lib Dems abstain, as opposed to voting yay or nay and why did the SNP vote in a manner that completely contradicts their own actions over the last few years.

If it was in order to meet their self-imposed and supposedly legally-binding targets, I could understand. That’s politics after all. But they didn’t even accomplish that!

[Jack]

It is interesting the SNP backed it because under their watch the Scottish NHS has given at least £130 million of public money in the last three years to private healthcare providers. The true figure is a lot higher as the figure I cited doesn’t include NHS Lothian or NHS Highland, as they didn’t provide the necessary information.

I suppose the questions you have to ask are why did the Lib Dems abstain, as opposed to voting yay or nay and why did the SNP vote in a manner that completely contradicts their own actions over the last few years.

If it was in order to meet their self-imposed and supposedly legally-binding targets, I could understand. That’s politics after all. But they didn’t even accomplish that!

Can you tell us what the £130m was spent on and what NHSScotlands total spend was over that period?

It might put the figure into some sort of perspective.

[RyeSloan]

jo swinson's ToryLites abstained from a motion by labour earlier bringing all NHS services back entirely into public hands and protect the NHS from post-brexit trade agreements, the motion was backed by SNP,Plaid Cymru,Greens.


https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinsons-lib-dems-refuse-to-support-motion-to-halt-nhs-privatisation/?fbclid=IwAR1wwk8M3ikosizZdOmJBE59vgrPYmnx9oMioiwM GIzYX__BIp5EKt6rSU0


'kin shame on them :bitchy:

Maybe they abstained because the motion didn’t make much sense?

Did it mean dentistry, pharmacy and eye care would end it’s long time prevalence of being provided by non Public bodies? And what about GP’s as well? Or the use of spare private capacity in emergency situations to allow people to get treatment faster than would otherwise happen?

Oh and was it covering other non public groups that often provide services like charities and social enterprises? And did it also cover highly specialised fields like diagnostics etc that maybe only the private sector can provide effectively?

Blanket statements like they used gives an emotional motion right enough that gave them the headlines they wanted and allowed them to trot out the big bad US pharma lines and unsubstantiated big sounding figures like £10bn....doesn’t achieve much else tho.

I would suggest though that the it’s actually more likely than not that providing free at the point of care, primary health services in the UK is a rather unattractive proposition to private companies. And not just because of the extremely hostile operating environment that they would be walking into more that it’s blinding obvious to all that there is no profit to be had in it!

I’ve seen and heard so many stories for so long about the ‘privatisation of the NHS’ yet literally decades later here we are and you are lucky if even it’s biggest opponents can dig up a figure that even accounts for 10% of the budget. A figure that no doubt covers many and varied services from many and varied providers not just those nasty profit leeches from across the pond.

[Mibbes Aye]

Can you tell us what the £130m was spent on and what NHSScotlands total spend was over that period?

It might put the figure into some sort of perspective.

One would hope it was in the public domain and as it seems you can use the Internet, perhaps you would be so kind :greengrin. But okay then.......

I think we both know it was likely to be largely on using private providers to try and meet the key targets, almost certainly mostly treatment times. And failing. And again I think we both know that this is about a whole-system problem, not one particular area. As the NHS Lothian and NHS Highland figures are not in the public domain it is impossible to give an accurate proportion. However, NHSL has one of the worst records in failing to meet targets, whilst also having perhaps the easiest supply of private providers. NHSH’s problems are different in that it will use hugely significant amounts of locum and agency. I think the true figure must be pushing on for c£200m, which I suspect equates to the bail-out or ‘brokerage’ monies, which would mean the taxpayer was actually paying twice for the spend on profit-making providers.

I think you have said before that you had a career in the NHS or the civil service pertaining to health and I have tried to say before that I am not seeking to criticise you or colleagues. There is however a fundamental fracture in the relationship between acute care, primary care, social care and public expectation. And the current administration have had enough time to try and do something about that. But it is not appearing to get any better. And the demographic pressure just keeps building.

[Jack]

One would hope it was in the public domain and as it seems you can use the Internet, perhaps you would be so kind :greengrin. But okay then.......

I think we both know it was likely to be largely on using private providers to try and meet the key targets, almost certainly mostly treatment times. And failing. And again I think we both know that this is about a whole-system problem, not one particular area. As the NHS Lothian and NHS Highland figures are not in the public domain it is impossible to give an accurate proportion. However, NHSL has one of the worst records in failing to meet targets, whilst also having perhaps the easiest supply of private providers. NHSH’s problems are different in that it will use hugely significant amounts of locum and agency. I think the true figure must be pushing on for c£200m, which I suspect equates to the bail-out or ‘brokerage’ monies, which would mean the taxpayer was actually paying twice for the spend on profit-making providers.

I think you have said before that you had a career in the NHS or the civil service pertaining to health and I have tried to say before that I am not seeking to criticise you or colleagues. There is however a fundamental fracture in the relationship between acute care, primary care, social care and public expectation. And the current administration have had enough time to try and do something about that. But it is not appearing to get any better. And the demographic pressure just keeps building.

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “We are absolutely committed to a publicly owned and operated NHS, and for the people of Scotland to continue to have free, timely access to health services.

“Over the last three years Scottish Government spending on health has approached £40bn.

“The use of the independent sector by the NHS to address short-term capacity issues represents around 0.5% of this investment, which compares to 7.3% in NHS England.

“For context, over this same period our NHS has had to pay around £0.75bn because of Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Public Private Partnership (PP) contracts.”

The Scottish Government has previously said that total private sector spend, including private agency staff, by NHS boards was £78.5m in 2015/16 and £72m in 2016/17.

[Hibbyradge]

already on the 16/1 leave with a deal on the 31st of October dude. An investment

How much have you got invested?

Not long till you cash in.

[Moulin Yarns]

PM putting down motion for a general election to be voted on on Monday, to take place on 12th December - No 10's gambit is that if Labour agrees, then they will timetable Brexit bill again with time for scrutiny until 6th November when they want to dissolve Parliament



Boris Johnson says he will give MPs more time to debate Brexit deal but only if they agree to 12 December general election.
He said he expected the EU to grant an extension to his 31 October deadline, even though he "really" did not want one.
He urged Labour to back an election in a vote he plans to hold next week.
The EU is expected to give its verdict on extending Brexit on Friday.
If Brexit is delayed to the end of November, the PM will try to get his deal through Parliament again, the BBC understands.
If the delay is to the end of January, Mr Johnson will hold a Commons vote next week on a 12 December election.
If Labour agrees to the election, then the government says it will try to get its deal through before Parliament is dissolved for the campaign on 6 November.
Asked by the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg what he would do if Labour refused to vote for an election, he said: "We would campaign day after day for the people of this country to be released from subjection to a Parliament that has outlived its usefulness."




B*gger, just realised if it happens (needs a 2/3rd majority) that it's my winter break, so will need to get a postal vote.

[Ozyhibby]

PM putting down motion for a general election to be voted on on Monday, to take place on 12th December - No 10's gambit is that if Labour agrees, then they will timetable Brexit bill again with time for scrutiny until 6th November when they want to dissolve Parliament





B*gger, just realised if it happens (needs a 2/3rd majority) that it's my winter break, so will need to get a postal vote.

Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The BBC reporting how difficult it is to hold a winter election anyway. All the halls are booked for local drama club pantomimes (Oh the irony, don't laugh at the back) and Christmas Craft Fairs.

[stokesmessiah]

The BBC reporting how difficult it is to hold a winter election anyway. All the halls are booked for local drama club pantomimes (Oh the irony, don't laugh at the back) and Christmas Craft Fairs.

Oh no it isn’t.

[Hibbyradge]

Winter election is said to be bad for Labour, with dark nights and freezing cold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh no it isn’t.

BOOOOO!!


Look behind you. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

They all get lifts in Range Rovers, Rollers and Bentleys to the polling station.

Not forgetting they all have fur coats (and nae knickers)

[Fife-Hibee]

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

[Cataplana]

Is it not worse for the Tories?

Older voters don't want to come out in the cold etc :dunno:

I would have thought so. Here's hoping for a hard winter then.

[Moulin Yarns]

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)


MPs have voted against the SNP's amendment to the government's Queen's Speech.
Ayes: 64
Noes: 310
Majority: 246

The amendment called on the government to maintain freedom of movement between the UK and Europe. It also called on the UK government to match the Scottish government's commitment to a net-zero greenhouse gas emissions target by 2045, and called for relaxing the freeze on benefits. It finished by calling for a pause on the ratification of the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill until it has been approved by the Welsh Senedd and Scottish Parliament.




PLEASE take your blinkers off

[Fife-Hibee]

There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)

PLEASE take your blinkers off

If anybody sees anything wrong with these proposals, then it's not me that's blinkered.

[Moulin Yarns]

If anybody sees anything wrong with these proposals, then it's not me that's blinkered.

OK

Freedom of movement - The UK Government is dead set against this, and post Brexit will have TOTAL control of immigration, which will affect Scotland more than England or (possibly) Wales

Greenhouse Gas Emissions - While as admirable the Scottish Government targets are, they are almost impossible to meet (let the anti-SNP lobby have a field day as yet more targets are missed) And let me be honest here they SHOuLD be even more ambitious if they are to have any effect.

Relaxing the Freeze on benefits - Absolutely, but again the SNP have some power to do more than they are doing, (with one hand tied behind their backs).


That is how you are blinkered, all that you saw was that the Welsh and Scottish Assemblies were being ignored, not the bigger picture.

Good luck seeing your MP tomorrow, hope you have a good question for her :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

MPs have voted in favour of the Queen's Speech motion.
The motion sets out the government's legislative agenda for the coming parliamentary session. It is highly unusual for a government to lose a Queen's Speech vote; however, as the current government does not have a majority, the result was expected to be close.
Ayes: 310
Noes: 294
Majority: 16
However, if the prime minister succeeds in his bid, announced this afternoon, to hold an election in December, much of this Queen's Speech will not be acted upon, unless the same plans are brought forward in the new Parliament.

[SHODAN]

Blackfords amendment to give the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments a say over the withdrawal bill defeated. 64 for, 310 against and countless MPs sitting on their hands.

Time to get out of this toxic relationship.

A nation of equals etc etc.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interestingly, all the Scottish Labour and Lib Dems (I think) voted for the SNP amendment.

[Moulin Yarns]

Interestingly, all the Scottish Labour and Lib Dems (I think) voted for the SNP amendment.

Haven't seen the breakdown, what about the Scottish tories and Welsh mps?

[danhibees1875]

There was a lot more to it than just giving the Welsh and Scottish assemblies a say (which is not required as the May Government ignored it before!!!)




PLEASE take your blinkers off

Perhaps a silly question but why was that bundled up into one amendment? Did they have to do that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Perhaps a silly question but why was that bundled up into one amendment? Did they have to do that?

I don't know. It does sound a bit strange, but I suppose there was limited time for amendments to be debated

[danhibees1875]

I don't know. It does sound a bit strange, but I suppose there was limited time for amendments to be debated

Perhaps. I've no idea what the procedure is for these things around how you lodge them/how many you can at once, when it's debated, and voted on.

Lumping unrelated things together in one bill - even if they were all mostly reasonable - just seems like a surefire way to have it knocked back much easier. Giving the pressing issue of Brexit I'm surprised they didn't just pick that one and run with it (by all means do the others separately if possible).

[StevieC]

They all get lifts in Range Rovers, Rollers and Bentleys to the polling station.

Not forgetting they all have fur coats (and nae knickers)

And a substantial amount of them are postal voters. It’s the one area of voting that the Tories have excelled in recent elections.

[Ozyhibby]

Sounds like Labour and SNP are going to say no to an election.


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[Slavers]

Sounds like Labour and SNP are going to say no to an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.

[CloudSquall]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1187441191761186816


If I was Europe I'd now tell them to shove the extension, what a ****ing joke this has all become.

[Callum_62]

Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.LOL.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1187441191761186816


If I was Europe I'd now tell them to shove the extension, what a ****ing joke this has all become.

What does Corbyn actually bring to the table? The guy's a disgrace.

[Callum_62]

Why are the Brexiteers government so. Angry at parliment?

The people had there say under half a term ago and yet, here they are demanding they get another say because they didn't get the result they wanted

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[Hibbyradge]

Sounds like Labour and SNP are going to say no to an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good stuff.

[Ozyhibby]

What does Corbyn actually bring to the table? The guy's a disgrace.

I agree Corbyn is absolutely useless but if Johnson wants an election then he can resign and force it. Both sides at it.


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[Fife-Hibee]

What does Corbyn actually bring to the table? The guy's a disgrace.

Why? What else could he have done here? :confused:

[ronaldo7]

What does Corbyn actually bring to the table? The guy's a disgrace.

A customs union, workers rights guaranteed, and much more. What did Theresa tell him...GTF

[lapsedhibee]

Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.

Please.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sounds like they are running scared. They must know the swamp will be drained after the GE.

The swamp will never be drained, your slaver will ensure that it is kept moist. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “We are absolutely committed to a publicly owned and operated NHS, and for the people of Scotland to continue to have free, timely access to health services.

“Over the last three years Scottish Government spending on health has approached £40bn.

“The use of the independent sector by the NHS to address short-term capacity issues represents around 0.5% of this investment, which compares to 7.3% in NHS England.

“For context, over this same period our NHS has had to pay around £0.75bn because of Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Public Private Partnership (PP) contracts.”

The Scottish Government has previously said that total private sector spend, including private agency staff, by NHS boards was £78.5m in 2015/16 and £72m in 2016/17.

So I was right about the £200m and probably guessed under, as SG spokespeople will bend the facts slightly (and no blame attached, for that, every party does it). Quoting press releases doesn’t really cut it, I’m afraid.

It is a bit rich for them to talk about PFI and PPP when they have used similar mechanisms for public works though.

And when will their obsession with comparisons against the English stop? Do you think it bothers someone a jot, delayed waiting on a hip replacement in Stirling, whether NHS Stockport is spending more on private providers?

England is in a worse state but as we both know, they are two years ahead in social care cuts and also introduced clinical commissioning, with all the consequences that was bound to generate. It is no wonder they are in a worse state. My question is what is happening to stop the Scottish NHS getting to a similar state?

I acknowledge this has gone off-thread and should maybe be continued on the Scottish thread as it isn’t really about Brexit now.

[lapsedhibee]

And when will their obsession with comparisons against the English stop? Do you think it bothers someone a jot, delayed waiting on a hip replacement in Stirling, whether NHS Stockport is spending more on private providers?

Shirley it's a fair tactic for a party whose raison d'etre is to separate their country from England to regularly stress differences between the two? I would fully expect the SNP to highlight any survey indicating 'more inequality' south of the border, for example.

[Cataplana]

So I was right about the £200m and probably guessed under, as SG spokespeople will bend the facts slightly (and no blame attached, for that, every party does it). Quoting press releases doesn’t really cut it, I’m afraid.

It is a bit rich for them to talk about PFI and PPP when they have used similar mechanisms for public works though.

And when will their obsession with comparisons against the English stop? Do you think it bothers someone a jot, delayed waiting on a hip replacement in Stirling, whether NHS Stockport is spending more on private providers?

England is in a worse state but as we both know, they are two years ahead in social care cuts and also introduced clinical commissioning, with all the consequences that was bound to generate. It is no wonder they are in a worse state. My question is what is happening to stop the Scottish NHS getting to a similar state?

I acknowledge this has gone off-thread and should maybe be continued on the Scottish thread as it isn’t really about Brexit now.

To compare public health care systems, you would go for countries which are similar to yourself and are running similar systems. England fits the bill. We both started off from the same point.

[G B Young]

A customs union, workers rights guaranteed, and much more. What did Theresa tell him...GTF

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

[Fife-Hibee]

So I was right about the £200m and probably guessed under, as SG spokespeople will bend the facts slightly (and no blame attached, for that, every party does it). Quoting press releases doesn’t really cut it, I’m afraid.

It is a bit rich for them to talk about PFI and PPP when they have used similar mechanisms for public works though.

And when will their obsession with comparisons against the English stop? Do you think it bothers someone a jot, delayed waiting on a hip replacement in Stirling, whether NHS Stockport is spending more on private providers?

England is in a worse state but as we both know, they are two years ahead in social care cuts and also introduced clinical commissioning, with all the consequences that was bound to generate. It is no wonder they are in a worse state. My question is what is happening to stop the Scottish NHS getting to a similar state?

I acknowledge this has gone off-thread and should maybe be continued on the Scottish thread as it isn’t really about Brexit now.

Until Scotland has independence from Westminster, there will be nothing to stop services here disintegrating into the same hell hole that they have south of the border. Because as you very well know. Overall funding availability for the Scottish Parliament is directly linked to what the UK Parliament chooses to spend, regardless of how much tax revenue Scotland generates. This forces our own government to follow suit in terms of the policies that are implimented. They can only mitigate so much until there is a breaking point.

But perhaps that's what you're hoping for. Our own government to be backed into a corner so you can point out that they're tories as well. Then you can tell everybody how politically similar Scotland and England are.

[Moulin Yarns]

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

Name 5.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

Isn't that a good enough reason? With the lib dems doing their best to split the remain vote right down the middle, would it not be careless for him to act all bold and brave at this stage?

If he was such a pro-brexiteer, wouldn't he be equally as desperate to hold an election as soon as possible and hand over a tory majority as Jo Swinson is?

[Callum_62]

Strong and stable

https://twitter.com/jillongovt/status/1187628149959475200?s=09

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[SHODAN]

I think an election will be approved by Labour if the EU give us the long extension.

[Cataplana]

This constant "we voted to leave" causes me problems. When you leave, you have to know where you are going.

They are like the ex partner standing on the doorstep expecting the remaining partner to phone a cab for them, arrange accommodation, whilst complaining that they are taking too long to do it.

Just typifies the inability to take responsibility, and actually demonstrates very well that they didn't know what they were voting for.

[cabbageandribs1875]

quite astonishing the percentage of both leavers and Remainers believing that violence towards MP's/members of the public getting badly injured during protests is "a price worth paying" :confused:



https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-violence-against-mps-price-worth-paying-to-get-brexit-result/

[Hibbyradge]

This constant "we voted to leave" causes me problems. When you leave, you have to know where you are going.

They are like the ex partner standing on the doorstep expecting the remaining partner to phone a cab for them, arrange accommodation, whilst complaining that they are taking too long to do it.

Just typifies the inability to take responsibility, and actually demonstrates very well that they didn't know what they were voting for.

I liked the skydiving metaphor.

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But there are no parachutes.

We must protect democracy. We must respect the will of the majority. Now jump!

[CloudSquall]

quite astonishing the percentage of both leavers and Remainers believing that violence towards MP's/members of the public getting badly injured during protests is "a price worth paying" :confused:



https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-violence-against-mps-price-worth-paying-to-get-brexit-result/

I think a Battle Royale / Hunger Games is the only solution now, last MP standing gets to decide the Brexit outcome.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think a Battle Royale / Hunger Games is the only solution now, last MP standing gets to decide the Brexit outcome.



although i'm astonished at the levels of acceptance for violence i do admit to have a yearning for delivering a haymaker to boris Johnson/Moggy/Gove/Javid, i'm only feeling like this after reading that article :)

[Cataplana]

I liked the skydiving metaphor.

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But there are no parachutes.

We must protect democracy. We must respect the will of the majority. Now jump!

There's a guy whose been trying to persuade them not to jump, but he's bored now and just wants the whole thing over and done with.

[Cataplana]

quite astonishing the percentage of both leavers and Remainers believing that violence towards MP's/members of the public getting badly injured during protests is "a price worth paying" :confused:



https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-violence-against-mps-price-worth-paying-to-get-brexit-result/

60% of leave voters in Scotland favour violence. Considering we know who they are I'm surprised the figure is that low.

[lapsedhibee]

I liked the skydiving metaphor.

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But there are no parachutes.

We must protect democracy. We must respect the will of the majority. Now jump!

Only a traitor would refuse to jump.

[Bristolhibby]

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

For me the EU brings a legal checks and measures to the U.K. gov on these rights. Also Human Rights, Environmental, safety, etc.

I simply don’t trust a Tory Government not to attack these hard fought rights and standards. Especially in their effort to Woo Trump with a Free Trade Deal.

Certainly one of the reasons I voted remain in 2016.

J

[Slavers]

I liked the skydiving metaphor.

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But there are no parachutes.

We must protect democracy. We must respect the will of the majority. Now jump!

A more accurate metaphor would be:

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But we don't yet have our parachutes on.

Boris - Ok i have a trade deal that will act a parachute and ensure a safe landing.

No we don't want it, we wont jump either, instead we will shut our eyes and put fingers in our ears.

Tell the pilot to keep flying around the brexit landing strip but he must not land the plane in a safe manner.

But the plane will run out of fuel and we will crash land with no deal and kill everyone along with our democracy

Quick look there is a GE button that will refuel parliament with MP's that represent the people and ensure the correct decision is made

Shut up and keep flying round and round...

The plane runs out of fuel and crashes without a deal killing all.

[grunt]

There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. Name some of them please.

[JeMeSouviens]

A more accurate metaphor would be:

Hands up who wants to go skydiving.

Yay, we've a majority in favour so everyone has to get on the plane and prepare to jump.

Ok, time to jump. But we don't yet have our parachutes on.

Boris - Ok i have a trade deal that will act a parachute and ensure a safe landing.

No we don't want it, we wont jump either, instead we will shut our eyes and put fingers in our ears.

Tell the pilot to keep flying around the brexit landing strip but he must not land the plane in a safe manner.

But the plane will run out of fuel and we will crash land with no deal and kill everyone along with our democracy

Quick look there is a GE button that will refuel parliament with MP's that represent the people and ensure the correct decision is made

Shut up and keep flying round and round...

The plane runs out of fuel and crashes without a deal killing all.


That is actually not a million miles away.

You have to factor in that some of Johnson's parachutes are full of holes and there are none at all for those in manufacturing but at least the hedge fund managers all have one of the finest silk. Also there's a nice emergency landing strip a few miles away at London Heathrevoke but nobody has the balls to fly the plane there. :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

Name some of them please.

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

[grunt]

Quick look there is a GE button that will refuel parliament with MP's that represent the people and ensure the correct decision is madeI don't believe that a General Election is the correct solution to our current problems. A General Election makes us vote down party lines, and the Brexit issue isn't aligned by party. There are Tories who don't want to Leave and Labour MPs who do. The only way to solve the Brexit issue is to hold another Referendum. And this time we need to get the right answer! :)

[grunt]

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.I just looked at one - paternity leave. Here's the EU adopting the rules on better work-life balance (incl. paid paternity leave) https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/06/13/better-work-life-balance-for-parents-and-carers-in-the-eu-council-adopts-new-rules/

[JeMeSouviens]

No decision today on length of extension from the EU:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/25/michel-barnier-eu-brexit-extension-boris-johnson-election

So it seems we now have EU waiting on the UK to make a decision about a GE and UK waiting on EU to make a decision about an extension.

How about - "Let's call the whole thing off"?

[cabbageandribs1875]

60% of leave voters in Scotland favour violence. Considering we know who they are I'm surprised the figure is that low.



and the 53% of remain voters that favour violence ? i'm surprised the figure is that high, they results fit in with my long-term views that the left are as violent as the right :cb
this should maybe be more appropriate on the Trump thread :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I just looked at one - paternity leave. Here's the EU adopting the rules on better work-life balance (incl. paid paternity leave) https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/06/13/better-work-life-balance-for-parents-and-carers-in-the-eu-council-adopts-new-rules/

Another one - paid holidays.

The EU introduced the statutory right to paid holidays in 1993 as part of the working time directive - the UK (Tory *******s) opposed it.
It was subsequently adopted into UK law in 1998 (Labour). The 20 day EU minimum was increased to 28 days in the UK to stop employers counting public holidays in the 20 days.

[Fife-Hibee]

It never fails to amuse me that people are immediately interested in the results of polls, but not how the questions were very selectively structured to achieve the desired result.

[grunt]

quite astonishing the percentage of both leavers and Remainers believing that violence towards MP's/members of the public getting badly injured during protests is "a price worth paying" :confused:



https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-violence-against-mps-price-worth-paying-to-get-brexit-result/I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

fair do's


a little more here
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit


The survey did not imply that the responder would conduct the violence themselve or specify that the violence would be severe or even be carried out by those on the same political side as them.
Richard Wyn Jones, a professor of Welsh politics at Cardiff University who co-directed the research, said he had been “flabbergasted” by the results, given the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/28/parents-of-jo-cox-say-toxic-discourse-has-worsened-since-daughters-death) before the referendum in 2016 and recent threats made towards other MPs.

[grunt]

fair do's

a little more here
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

Thanks. Astonishing.

And there's this, too. What would be worth it? What are we getting in exchange for being poorer??



However, a huge number of those who voted leave in the EU referendum believed that
economic losses would be worth it (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers)
– 76% in England and Scotland and 81% in Wales.

[Moulin Yarns]

EU agrees Brexit extension, just not said for how long.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50175914

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

They did separate pollling in Scotland, England, Wales. Results are here:

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/1708628/Copy-of-Scotland-16-Oct-AH.pdf
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/1708624/Copy-of-Wales-16-Oct-AH.pdf


The "sensational" question is:


Some have suggested that **leaving the
European Union** might present challenges
to the UK but others disagree, labelling this
as Project Fear. For each of the following
please tell us whether you think this would
be a price worth paying or not worth paying
for Brexit?

And then a series of scenarios:

- The breakup of the UK
- The party I support losing the next GE
- The UK gets substantially poorer
- I get substantially poorer

etc

The last one is

- Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For each scenario there are 3 options:

- I want this to happen regardless of Brexit
- I see it as a risk but it's worth it to take back control
- Leaving the EU is not worth the risk of this happening

The Scotland numbers for Violence to MPs are 4/27/68

Ticking the 2nd option isn't "justifying violence", it could just be saying that the presence of that violence shouldn't affect the outcome one way or another. There isn't a box for that specifically.

[JeMeSouviens]

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

[grunt]

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.
- I see it as a risk but it's worth it to take back control

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.

Yes, it tends to turn the whole thing into a bit of a series of q's that all end up a proxy for Leave/Remain.

[Rocky]

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.

Definitely, considering my answer to the question as framed would put me in the headline "favours violence" bracket. And my position is that I abhor all violence against politicians but I wouldn't want the threat of violence to be the deciding factor in any political decision.

[Smartie]

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

Yep. Absolutely mental.

Presumably they don't live in Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Brighton or Manchester.

[Fife-Hibee]

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

It shouldn't surprise anyone really. Brexit is all about England.

[Moulin Yarns]

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

Minimum wage :rolleyes:

Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monaco, France, San Marino, Ireland, Belgium, Germany and Netherlands all have higher minimum hourly rates.

Paternity Leave :rolleyes:

The UK is only 12th for Paternity leave and pay, behind Slovenia, Romania and Lithuania for example.

Paid Holiday Leave :rolleyes:

UK 28 days, Germany and Belgium both 30, Italy 32, Poland and Slovenia 33 , Romania and Lithuania 34


Anyone see a pattern here?


We think we are wonderful, but the devil is in the detail, details that folk are too lazy to look into.

[Slavers]

Minimum wage :rolleyes:

Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monaco, France, San Marino, Ireland, Belgium, Germany and Netherlands all have higher minimum hourly rates.

Paternity Leave :rolleyes:

The UK is only 12th for Paternity leave and pay, behind Slovenia, Romania and Lithuania for example.

Paid Holiday Leave :rolleyes:

UK 28 days, Germany and Belgium both 30, Italy 32, Poland and Slovenia 33 , Romania and Lithuania 34


Anyone see a pattern here?


We think we are wonderful, but the devil is in the detail, details that folk are too lazy to look into.

Im talking about EU law not nations who go above and beyond it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Im talking about EU law not nations who go above and beyond it.



The conversation started with this post, which hasn't been answered by the originator.


None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Leave entitlement

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/18/14/20160217_Paid_Leave_Ind%20(2).jpg

[G B Young]

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

Paternity leave is unregulated in the EU and benefits vary widely (2016)



https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/18/13/Paternity-Leave.jpeg

[Moulin Yarns]

Under EU law, parents are entitled to 16 weeks of leave to care for their children.
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/18/13/Parental-Leave.jpeg

[Moulin Yarns]

Sick pay is especially generous in the Netherlands Workers there can be sick for 104 weeks, or two years, and still get 70 per cent of their salary. The UK is the least generous, offering 28 weeks paid leave.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.

28 days Paid holidays includes 8 days public holidays which the TORIES tried to include in the 20 days EU MINIMUM.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/18/14/20160217_Paid_Leave_Ind%20(2).jpg

Carer leave EU entitlement is 16 weeks

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/18/13/Parental-Leave.jpeg

As is clear the UK is happy to accept the minimum required where other, more enlightened nations go far and above the minimum.

[ronaldo7]

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

Aye right. We're all safe with Alexander at the helm. That'll be the reason he's moved the worker's rights into the political declaration, so he can protect us.

Buttoned up the back springs to mind.

[grunt]

Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.Yes but surely the point is that the EU does have these minimum standards, which the UK (by virtue of our EU membership) are required to adhere to. One of the Government's stated reasons for leaving the EU is so that we will no longer be bound by these minimum standards. So the fact that we currently exceed the minimum is irrelevant - the issue is that our Government wants a situation where we no longer are bound to meet these standards. Goodbye workers rights.

[RyeSloan]

Yes but surely the point is that the EU does have these minimum standards, which the UK (by virtue of our EU membership) are required to adhere to. One of the Government's stated reasons for leaving the EU is so that we will no longer be bound by these minimum standards. So the fact that we currently exceed the minimum is irrelevant - the issue is that our Government wants a situation where we no longer are bound to meet these standards. Goodbye workers rights.

Interesting opinion piece for the Guardian on this subject:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/24/eu-workers-rights-capital-multinationals

[Mibbes Aye]

Shirley it's a fair tactic for a party whose raison d'etre is to separate their country from England to regularly stress differences between the two? I would fully expect the SNP to highlight any survey indicating 'more inequality' south of the border, for example.

It is not really valid when comparing structures that for various reasons are remarkably different though. is it?

I get that it is just politics and everyone does it, but it feels patronising when it is used to mask the fact that they are consistently failing to meet their own legally-binding targets.

As I said before, it is a bit like Colin Calderwood saying “Hey, I was better then Terry Butcher”.