The future of the Labour Party

[Mibbes Aye]

:confused:Its not a 'notion', the data clearly shows over the last year the Tories are up five points one month, Labour are up three points the next. Each lead is also within the margin of error.

That is the definition of level pegging.

I doubt you read it very carefully though, as your other comment about YouGov is obviously wrong, you can see by even a cursory glance that theres a pattern of YouGov giving the Tories a higher rating than the other pollsters, probably down to different ways of collecting data. Thats a fact.

Trying to put the growth of the Labour vote solely down to 'entryists' (your word of the year, clearly, cribbed from the tory press,and absolutely meaningless...at what point does one become an 'entryist'? 1997, 2007, 2014? Are only Corbyn supporters 'entryists'? Is getting new members a bad thing? I thought that was part of the point of politics:greengrin) and is just clearly deeply complacent.

And you are still lost in obsessing about the personalities. Any thoughts at all about policy? the manifesto? the campaigning? the hung parliament ensuring lots of damaging Tory legislation doesnt get through?

The rest of the post is the same repetition of your 'Blair did this in an election twenty years ago hence im going to draw a lot of empty comparisons...' point, as if Corbyn had just walked into Blairs shoes instead of twenty years of time elapsing. Its nonsense. Im sure you know that really.

You're quite funny because it’s noticeable that whenever anyone challenges you, you can’t stop yourself descending into attacking them and trying to rubbish their point of view. And then presenting your view as an absolute fact.

It doesn’t really hold water, you know.

I think just about anyone can look at the tracking polls, Britain Elects or YouGov, and see that it is far from level pegging. As I say, just about anyone.

As for the Blair and Corbyn comparison, I am merely responding to the rhetoric from the Corbynites about how well they did in 2017 with the big vote swing and the big vote share. And pointing out that the only other Labour leader who achieved that in recent memory turned it into landslide majorities, whereas Corbyn fell dozens of seats short of one of the most incompetent administrations in living history.

This is the fundamental problem - there is no point stacking up meaningless votes based on an appeal to a demographic that won’t help you win elections. The people he needs to persuade don’t really agree with what he stands for. So we can either have a self-indulgent vanity project where the (intellectual) children get to run the house or we can seek to gain power, based on speaking to the majority about what’s important. And then use that power to add to the progressive legislation that was passed under Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/08/venezuela-power-outage-maduro-schools-closed?__twitter_impression=true

Now the lights have gone of in Venezuela. If Corbyn ever wins, that’s the UK’s future.

https://youtu.be/5OqXBdCHJDc



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[hibsbollah]

You're quite funny because it’s noticeable that whenever anyone challenges you, you can’t stop yourself descending into attacking them and trying to rubbish their point of view. And then presenting your view as an absolute fact.

It doesn’t really hold water, you know.

I think just about anyone can look at the tracking polls, Britain Elects or YouGov, and see that it is far from level pegging. As I say, just about anyone.

As for the Blair and Corbyn comparison, I am merely responding to the rhetoric from the Corbynites about how well they did in 2017 with the big vote swing and the big vote share. And pointing out that the only other Labour leader who achieved that in recent memory turned it into landslide majorities, whereas Corbyn fell dozens of seats short of one of the most incompetent administrations in living history.

This is the fundamental problem - there is no point stacking up meaningless votes based on an appeal to a demographic that won’t help you win elections. The people he needs to persuade don’t really agree with what he stands for. So we can either have a self-indulgent vanity project where the (intellectual) children get to run the house or we can seek to gain power, based on speaking to the majority about what’s important. And then use that power to add to the progressive legislation that was passed under Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown.

I don't think I attacked you at all. I do find it frustrating when you don't engage in the points I make and just repeat yourself though.

Talking of progressive legislation, I recall you saying once you would happily pay a higher rate of tax to get better services. In the Miliband manifesto, there was no increased higher rate of tax. Umunna has already said (with his Tory friends sitting behind him) there would be no higher tax rate. The current Labour manifesto is committed to a higher rate of tax. If you want these kind of policies, you need to vote for them.

To be honest, if Corbyn was killed in an allotment accident tomorrow, apart from the sad loss of human life, I wouldn't give a monkeys politically as long as a Emily Thornberry, or even a Yvette Cooper, took forward the For the Many not the Few manifesto. Because despite what you seem to think, some people who still support Labour do so because we like their domestic policies, not because we're entryists or trots or misguided fools.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I don't think I attacked you at all. I do find it frustrating when you don't engage in the points I make and just repeat yourself though.

Talking of progressive legislation, I recall you saying once you would happily pay a higher rate of tax to get better services. In the Miliband manifesto, there was no increased higher rate of tax. Umunna has already said (with his Tory friends sitting behind him) there would be no higher tax rate. The current Labour manifesto is committed to a higher rate of tax. If you want these kind of policies, you need to vote for them.

To be honest, if Corbyn was killed in an allotment accident tomorrow, apart from the sad loss of human life, I wouldn't give a monkeys politically as long as a Emily Thornberry, or even a Yvette Cooper, took forward the For the Many not the Few manifesto. Because despite what you seem to think, some people who still support Labour do so because we like their domestic policies, not because we're entryists or trots or misguided fools.

You perfectly describe Corbyn in your last sentence.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47497539



How do they expect to finance this?

[Just Alf]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47497539



How do they expect to finance this?He want the Scottish government to nationalise/run bus companies??

Hmmm

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[Moulin Yarns]

He want the Scottish government to nationalise/run bus companies??

Hmmm

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Don't get me wrong, there is a lot wrong with public transport, particularly buses in rural areas. I know, I live in Pitlochry. But to suggest a free for all bus service across Scotland is true cloud cuckoo land.

I use Edinburgh buses more than the local stagecoach services.

[stoneyburn hibs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47497539



How do they expect to finance this?

Hmmm," look at me Jeremy, I'm also a basket case"

[Fife-Hibee]

"Free" bus travel.



For anyone not paying taxes.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47497539



How do they expect to finance this?

Socialism always starts with loads of free stuff.


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[weecounty hibby]

Socialism always starts with loads of free stuff.


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I can't wait to see him explain how that will be funded. When he tells us hopefully he will also tell us how Labour would increase funding for education without taking it away from other services. You know the question he keeps dodging

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190309/28ff681c81a607d599d2c4727535baef.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

Con 41% +1 (since Feb),
Lab 31% -4,
Lib Dem 8% -2,
UKIP 6% +3,
Green 6% +2

Government in absolute meltdown and still people are turning away from Labour.


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[Hibbyradge]

Con 41% +1 (since Feb),
Lab 31% -4,
Lib Dem 8% -2,
UKIP 6% +3,
Green 6% +2

Government in absolute meltdown and still people are turning away from Labour.


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Jeez. That's hard to believe.

Where's it from?

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47497539



How do they expect to finance this?

Don't ask Monica, that's for another day.

[hibsbollah]

Jeez. That's hard to believe.

Where's it from?



https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

It's a six point Tory lead, and has been a similar gap for a month since mid Feb when it was a tie. The most recent movement is Labour to UKIP. Which raises some interesting questions. Not good news if you're a Labour voter, but corresponds with the resignations and the anti semitism inquiry. Voter's don't like public splits.

[marinello59]

Jeez. That's hard to believe.

Where's it from?

Corbyn obviously doesn’t believe it, he still thinks calling an election he will lose badly as the way forward.

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn obviously doesn’t believe it, he still thinks calling an election he will lose badly as the way forward.

There are lots of things he believes that have no relation to reality.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn obviously doesn’t believe it, he still thinks calling an election he will lose badly as the way forward.

It's far from certain he'd lose or at least not as badly as polling suggests. Most polls are seeing the "independent group" suck a few points out of Labour but they're not going to be able to stand in any more than a handful of seats and even in those they'll hit the big party squeeze when push comes to shove. Also, the Tories are just about holding together over Brexit but how well would they survive an election campaign where they'll be vehemently arguing for several different Brexit outcomes?

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn obviously doesn’t believe it, he still thinks calling an election he will lose badly as the way forward.

There's disbelieving it, which is stupid, and there's acknowledging that they are behind just now, but polls actually do, and have, gone up and down.

[Hibbyradge]

There's disbelieving it, which is stupid, and there's acknowledging that they are behind just now, but polls actually do, and have, gone up and down.

You've got to live in hope, I suppose.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see yon irritating American guy with the big red foam hand being told not to bet silly, bet savvy after he's announced he's backed Corbyn to achieve a majority, ever.

Labour needs to change leader. It's as clear as can be. It doesn't even need to move it's policies to the right, just get someone in who is voter friendly.

I've been saying this since JC was elected and, apart from him losing by less than expected last time, nothing has changed.

[hibsbollah]

You've got to live in hope, I suppose.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see yon irritating American guy with the big red foam hand being told not to bet silly, bet savvy after he's announced he's backed Corbyn to achieve a majority, ever.

Labour needs to change leader. It's as clear as can be. It doesn't even need to move it's policies to the right, just get someone in who is voter friendly.

I've been saying this since JC was elected and, apart from him losing by less than expected last time, nothing has changed.

If you could create the consummate politician in a test tube to give you the best chance of getting the UK to vote for Labours FTMNTF manifesto, would that person be Jeremy Corbyn? No.

But we are where we are. And there are enough people who like the policies to make a Labour victory at the next election a possibility. If you like the policies, hold your nerve. There is no appetite for another coup attempt, because the party would be split wide apart and we'd be looking at another 25 point gap in the polls instead of a 5 point gap.

[lapsedhibee]

Labour needs to change leader. It's as clear as can be. It doesn't even need to move it's policies to the right, just get someone in who is voter friendly.


:agree: Dealing with PM's continued hoarseness today by shouting even louder than usual. Terrible.

[heretoday]

:agree: Dealing with PM's continued hoarseness today by shouting even louder than usual. Terrible.

He is not a good speaker. He sounds as though he's addressing a fringe meeting at Conference. His diction is faltering and he comes across as a fussy little man.

These things are, unfortunately, important.

[JeMeSouviens]

One for hibsbollah :wink:


Comres in the Telegraph:

Lab 35
Con 34
Lib 8
TIG 7
UKIP 6
SNP 3
Grn 3
Oth 4

[hibsbollah]

One for hibsbollah :wink:


Comres in the Telegraph:

Lab 35
Con 34
Lib 8
TIG 7
UKIP 6
SNP 3
Grn 3
Oth 4

:greengrin To be consistent I'll stick to Britain Elects, even when individual polls make more favourable reading for Labour. A three point swing blue to red and the SDP and UKIP not moving which is a bit surprising. They will probably be all over the place until Brexit becomes clear.

A wee report here which covers a lot of issues that Labour should/could be focusing on. Make the case that by providing funding for youth provision will reduce violent crime, homelessness and gentrification of cities. And it's not just a London issue. Clear vote winner.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3I1sqFT8grEBegIMKAQRSF?si=r8Fg2bcoSym35mJRtkjL6w

[JeMeSouviens]

Don't Know surging in race to be next PM.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2qY1PfX4AEugdc.png

[matty_f]

Don't Know surging in race to be next PM.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2qY1PfX4AEugdc.png

That could be used to adequately describe the current PM, to be fair.

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't Know surging in race to be next PM.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2qY1PfX4AEugdc.png


Don't tell our resident Lab-bot Tornadoes70/ignsh :greengrin

[Future17]

That could be used to adequately describe the current PM, to be fair.

The "refused" percentage would have to have been higher. :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

So local council by election in my area yesterday. SNP win +3% up on last time. Labour -8% on last time. Tories +2%. Lib Dems +1%. So according to Ignsh/Tornadoes Corbyn and Leonard's message is getting through. It would appear it is but only serves on improving Al other parties votes. I know it's only local elections but surely they need to take their heads out of their ***** and look at what's happening. The Labour candidate had Leonard and also Gordon Brown out with her campaigning.

[ronaldo7]

So local council by election in my area yesterday. SNP win +3% up on last time. Labour -8% on last time. Tories +2%. Lib Dems +1%. So according to Ignsh/Tornadoes Corbyn and Leonard's message is getting through. It would appear it is but only serves on improving Al other parties votes. I know it's only local elections but surely they need to take their heads out of their ***** and look at what's happening. The Labour candidate had Leonard and also Gordon Brown out with her campaigning.

Jane McTaggart, Clacks central. Well done. ✅

[Pretty Boy]

So local council by election in my area yesterday. SNP win +3% up on last time. Labour -8% on last time. Tories +2%. Lib Dems +1%. So according to Ignsh/Tornadoes Corbyn and Leonard's message is getting through. It would appear it is but only serves on improving Al other parties votes. I know it's only local elections but surely they need to take their heads out of their ***** and look at what's happening. The Labour candidate had Leonard and also Gordon Brown out with her campaigning.

It's all part of the grand masterplan towards a socialist utopia. Give the other parties just enough rope then pounce when the time is right or something like that.

Some might suggest Corbyn and Leonard just don't know their erse from their elbow but they are just 'Blairites', 'red Tories' or 'don't understand'.

[weecounty hibby]

It's all part of the grand masterplan towards a socialist utopia. Give the other parties just enough rope then pounce when the time is right or something like that.

Some might suggest Corbyn and Leonard just don't know their erse from their elbow but they are just 'Blairites', 'red Tories' or 'don't understand'.
While I am delighted to see another SNP victory, I would like to see a decent opposition to push the Scottish government. Unfortunately it's just not happening and isn't good for politics or indeed the party that keeps on winning. Labour both in Scotland and the wider UK are not being well ked

[SHODAN]

While I am delighted to see another SNP victory, I would like to see a decent opposition to push the Scottish government. Unfortunately it's just not happening and isn't good for politics or indeed the party that keeps on winning. Labour both in Scotland and the wider UK are not being well ked

If Labour wasn't so transparent in the fact it hates the SNP more than the Tories, and adopted a more conciliatory tone, it would probably win some seats back.

They're still struggling to deal with the fact that an entire electorate basically decided in a matter of years that they weren't "Scotland's party" any more.

[Hibbyradge]

So local council by election in my area yesterday. SNP win +3% up on last time. Labour -8% on last time. Tories +2%. Lib Dems +1%. So according to Ignsh/Tornadoes Corbyn and Leonard's message is getting through. It would appear it is but only serves on improving Al other parties votes. I know it's only local elections but surely they need to take their heads out of their ***** and look at what's happening. The Labour candidate had Leonard and also Gordon Brown out with her campaigning.

Labour down by 8 points?

That's almost unbelievable.

[weecounty hibby]

Labour down by 8 points?

That's almost unbelievable.

In a you think I'm making it up style, or just so big that it is hard to believe that Labour are so inept? They appear to have lost to every party including a UKIP candidate. Those are the reported figures as I have seen them this morning. I actually know the Labour candidate, she stays in my street and is a pal of my wife. Lovely woman who was a huge independence advocate during the referendum and actually helped out in the Yes campaign. She was sadly out of her depth as a candidate and doesn't bode well for Labour if she was their best option

[Hibbyradge]

In a you think I'm making it up style, or just so big that it is hard to believe that Labour are so inept? They appear to have lost to every party including a UKIP candidate. Those are the reported figures as I have seen them this morning. I actually know the Labour candidate, she stays in my street and is a pal of my wife. Lovely woman who was a huge independence advocate during the referendum and actually helped out in the Yes campaign. She was sadly out of her depth as a candidate and doesn't bode well for Labour if she was their best option

I don't think you made it up.

It's just hard to believe how far behind they're falling.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think you made it up.

It's just hard to believe how far behind they're falling.

Opinions eh, I'm surprised they're not further behind.

[hibsbollah]

It's all part of the grand masterplan towards a socialist utopia. Give the other parties just enough rope then pounce when the time is right or something like that.

Some might suggest Corbyn and Leonard just don't know their erse from their elbow but they are just 'Blairites', 'red Tories' or 'don't understand'.

That's a bit of an empty analysis, to be honest. It's just as accurate to say any attempt to contextualise this poor by election result, or to support the Labour manifesto, or to point out areas where Labour have done well in the last four years, is dismissed by the usual suspects as 'trotskyite' 'corbyn fan boy' or 'brainwashed cultist'.

We are all demeaned by crap levels of debate. It goes on on both sides.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour down by 8 points?

That's almost unbelievable.


Clackmannanshire Central (Clackmannanshire) first preferences:
SNP: 40.9% (+2.6)
LAB: 31.9% (-8.0)
CON: 19.8% (+3.2)
UKIP: 3.3% (+3.3)
GRN: 2.5% (-2.7)
LDEM: 1.7% (+1.7)

SNP HOLD. SNP prev won (and was today defending) 2nd seat of 3 member ward in 2017, Lab had won 1st seat.

Also


Wallington North (Sutton) result:
LDEM: 38.2% (-7.7)
CON: 26.1% (+0.5)
IND: 14.0% (+14.0)
LAB: 11.1% (-5.6)
GRN: 6.1% (-2.3)
UKIP: 3.8% (+0.5)
CPA: 0.6% (+0.6)

Liberal Democrat HOLD.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's a bit of an empty analysis, to be honest. It's just as accurate to say any attempt to contextualise this poor by election result, or to support the Labour manifesto, or to point out areas where Labour have done well in the last four years, is dismissed by the usual suspects as 'trotskyite' 'corbyn fan boy' or 'brainwashed cultist'.

We are all demeaned by crap levels of debate. It goes on on both sides.

It's a worrying straw in the wind for SLab though. On this sort of swing they'd lose all their Scottish MPs bar Ian Murray I think.

The SNP is going to have a much easier time of it than 2017 if there is an election shortly. They have a strongly unified Remain message and anti-Indyref2 feeling, while still very strong among committed Unionists, has diminished somewhat among the persuadables I think.

[hibsbollah]

It's a worrying straw in the wind for SLab though. On this sort of swing they'd lose all their Scottish MPs bar Ian Murray I think.

The SNP is going to have a much easier time of it than 2017 if there is an election shortly. They have a strongly unified Remain message and anti-Indyref2 feeling, while still very strong among committed Unionists, has diminished somewhat among the persuadables I think.

I don't have to tell you that extrapolating council results into nationwide swings is only something hacks and pundits do to generate headlines:greengrin Quite often the swing is down to one candidate doing better than another on issues like dodgy potholes or improved street lighting.

But I absolutely agree that the SNP is going to perform better in the next few months, the public dislikes party division and the SNP has levels of loyalty to their official position that Stalinist dictators would envy. Ian Murray? With his majority in Edinburgh South he could run down minto street in the buff throwing Buckie bottles about and still get voted back in.

[Jack Hackett]

Labour are f*****

[Future17]

I don't have to tell you that extrapolating council results into nationwide swings is only something hacks and pundits do to generate headlines:greengrin Quite often the swing is down to one candidate doing better than another on issues like dodgy potholes or improved street lighting.

But I absolutely agree that the SNP is going to perform better in the next few months, the public dislikes party division and the SNP has levels of loyalty to their official position that Stalinist dictators would envy. Ian Murray? With his majority in Edinburgh South he could run down minto street in the buff throwing Buckie bottles about and still get voted back in.

People vote for candidates they can relate to. :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't have to tell you that extrapolating council results into nationwide swings is only something hacks and pundits do to generate headlines:greengrin Quite often the swing is down to one candidate doing better than another on issues like dodgy potholes or improved street lighting.

But I absolutely agree that the SNP is going to perform better in the next few months, the public dislikes party division and the SNP has levels of loyalty to their official position that Stalinist dictators would envy. Ian Murray? With his majority in Edinburgh South he could run down minto street in the buff throwing Buckie bottles about and still get voted back in.

I did say "straw in the wind". :devil:

[JeMeSouviens]

Delta poll:

LAB: 41% (+5)
CON: 36% (-7)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
UKIP: 7% (+2)

Go Jez ;-)

[Tornadoes70]

Delta poll:

LAB: 41% (+5)
CON: 36% (-7)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
UKIP: 7% (+2)

Go Jez ;-)

:aok:

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Moulin Yarns]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/31/scottish-labour-party-has-gone-missing-not-too-late-to-rediscover-it?__twitter_impression=true

Good article.

[Saturday Boy]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/31/scottish-labour-party-has-gone-missing-not-too-late-to-rediscover-it?__twitter_impression=true

Good article.


Pity he can’t tell Bonnyrigg from Bonnybridge.

[ronaldo7]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/31/scottish-labour-party-has-gone-missing-not-too-late-to-rediscover-it?__twitter_impression=true

Good article.

If only the Labour party didn't have a problem with accents these days. Those pesky European Scots get everywhere, and Paul Sweeney disnae like it.

International socialists my arse.

[Moulin Yarns]

Pity he can’t tell Bonnyrigg from Bonnybridge.

Ha, ha. I never noticed.

[JeMeSouviens]

Pity he can’t tell Bonnyrigg from Bonnybridge.

Dunno, have you read Irvine Welsh’s Rosewell Incident?

[Moulin Yarns]

First thing is the 'Fracking Tsar' resigning


In her resignation letter to Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Greg Clark, former Labour MP, Ms Engel said government was "pandering to what we know to be myths and scare stories" about shale gas extraction.

Then there was this


Last month Labour’s shadow environment secretary, Sue Hayman, declared an environment and climate emergency on behalf of our party. Labour councils have been doing the same. And this Wednesday, Labour is leading the charge for the UK parliament to be the first in the world to formally recognise the climate emergency.

Except Sir Richard the Leopardheart and the Scottish Labour MSPs voted with all other parties at Holyrood against a similar motion from the Scottish Green Party last month, so conflicting messages from them.


Last month the Greens brought forward a vote calling on the Scottish Parliament to declare a climate emergency. "This proposition was voted down by SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/), Tory, Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) and Lib Dem MSPs. The other parties cannot conceive of a positive vision for Scotland's future after we leave the fossil fuel age behind.
"But, we quite simply cannot afford to continue with our over-reliance on oil (https://www.thenational.scot/business/oil-and-gas/) and gas (https://www.thenational.scot/business/oil-and-gas/).
"Climate science tells us there is just over a decade to act if we are to prevent climate breakdown, while the inspirational school climate strikers demand that we act urgently to secure their future.




OK Labour, what are you proposing that is so fundamentally different to that proposal, and why are you supporting shale gas extraction in England when the science does not support it?

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that Labour are getting on top of the anti-semitism row


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-48039224?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ceeqy0e9894t/england-local-elections-2019&link_location=live-reporting-story

[SHODAN]

If Labour back the deal then all the members that put Corbyn in power are gone. They'll leave overnight.

[Colr]

If Labour back the deal then all the members that put Corbyn in power are gone. They'll leave overnight.

Already reports of activists refusing to campaign unless they back a peoples vote including the option to stay - as predicted here.

[Hiber-nation]

Sounds familiar.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48105247

[JeMeSouviens]

Sounds familiar.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48105247

Bloody hell, this is a shocker ...


The MSP said that after "15 months of little or no communication", he was notified by the party four days before a planned hearing of the National Constitutional Committee (NCC) was to be held.

He said he was asked if he could appear as a witness, and was sent the relevant paperwork two hours before the meeting was due to begin.

However, when he arrived at the hearing, Mr Sarwar said he was "informed by an NCC representative that I could not give evidence as I had not given the committee two weeks notice of my intention to appear as a witness".

He said he was asked to leave without giving any evidence, and that the panel had "subsequently ruled that there was no case to answer without any verbal evidence being taken".

Full statement from Sarwar is here: https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1123175238462779393

[Fife-Hibee]

Bloody hell, this is a shocker ...



Full statement from Sarwar is here: https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1123175238462779393

I'm just curious as to what evidence he could have provided beyond something verbal? Is he suggesting that he had some other kind of evidence that he wasn't allowed to present?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm just curious as to what evidence he could have provided beyond something verbal? Is he suggesting that he had some other kind of evidence that he wasn't allowed to present?

No, he wasn't allowed to give his verbal evidence because he hadn't told them he was coming to give evidence at a hearing they hadn't told him about! :confused::rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Sounds familiar.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48105247

They've got some issues to iron out.

[Moulin Yarns]

What a plum

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/hard-brexit-could-push-scottish-independence-over-the-line-warns-tony-blair-1-4917580/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[Ozyhibby]

Labour NEC just failed to back another referendum.
Good news for the snp but bad if you want to stay in the Eu.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Labour NEC just failed to back another referendum.
Good news for the snp but bad if you want to stay in the Eu.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48099901


Something not right if Labour claims to be the only party supporting people who voted leave as well as those who voted remain.

[Hibbyradge]

What a plum

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/hard-brexit-could-push-scottish-independence-over-the-line-warns-tony-blair-1-4917580/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Why's he a plum?

Is he wrong?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why's he a plum?

Is he wrong?

The only way to save the precious union is to merge the leagues

[Smartie]

Why's he a plum?

Is he wrong?

A weekly orgy of football violence between Scottish and English people is not what is required to save the Union.

[Glory Lurker]

Why's he a plum?

Is he wrong?

I take it this is Tony Blair? That man dreams of one day only being a plum.

[James310]

The only way to save the precious union is to merge the leagues

I read the article and never read that at all. I read that it would strengthen the relationship we have with our closest neighbours and with people we have a lot in common with.

[Smartie]

I read the article and never read that at all. I read that it would strengthen the relationship we have with our closest neighbours and with people we have a lot in common with.

I actually find that I agree with much of what Tony Blair says about Brexit.

Whilst he's entitled to his opinion, and whilst I always think it can only be a good thing to encourage people to acknowledge what they have in common over what divides them, I strongly disagree with him that this would be anything other than a disaster.

[G B Young]

The only way to save the precious union is to merge the leagues

He's not saying it's the only way. He's suggesting ways that bring people together without the entrenched political baggage that fosters such a bunker mentality with issues like Scottish independence. Sport, and football in particular, is a common language across the UK and Blair has long advocated a merging of the leagues. It's an issue I've always agreed with him on as an innovative way to liven up the game, especially in Scotland where we're stuck with a turgid system whereby we can end up playing the same opponents as many as five or six times a season.

[G B Young]

A weekly orgy of football violence between Scottish and English people is not what is required to save the Union.

We seem to get a weekly dose of bother at games between Scottish sides these days. Personally I think a merger of the leagues would be a great way to dilute that by reducing the number of times sides play each other while also introducing a whole new set of opponents to face. It would also grant Scottish sides a lot more media/TV interest.

Yes, there will likely always be nutters intent on aggro, but I'd be surprised if remained a significant problem once it became the norm for sides from all parts of the UK to face each other on a weekly basis. Is there significant anti-English/anti-Welsh hostility at games involving Cardiff and Swansea? Maybe I'm just not aware of it.

[Jack Hackett]

I read the article and never read that at all. I read that it would strengthen the relationship we have with our closest neighbours and with people we have a lot in common with.

I have a lot more in common with the Spanish than I do with the English, and I live in England. Other than language, what exactly is it I have in common with them?

[G B Young]

I have a lot more in common with the Spanish than I do with the English, and I live in England. Other than language, what exactly is it I have in common with them?

If you share the same country as them that would suggest rather a lot in common with English people.

[Jack Hackett]

If you share the same country as them that would suggest rather a lot in common with English people.

Maybe to you. Millions of people throughout UK, not to mention the globe... live in countries where they have nothing in common with the native population. I prefer Spain to England, and I'll (hopefully) be retiring there. So you can delete that suggestion

[James310]

I have a lot more in common with the Spanish than I do with the English, and I live in England. Other than language, what exactly is it I have in common with them?

Let me guess, Catalonians?

I don't know you of course but I do find it a little odd you feel you have more in common with someone who speaks a different language, comes from a different culture and lives in a country over 1,000 miles away than say someone in Newcastle or Leeds.

Why do you feel you have nothing in common with the English as if you live there you must be with them all day?

[Jack Hackett]

Let me guess, Catalonians?

I don't know you of course but I do find it a little odd you feel you have more in common with someone who speaks a different language, comes from a different culture and lives in a country over 1,000 miles away than say someone in Newcastle or Leeds.

Why do you feel you have nothing in common with the English as if you live there you must be with them all day?

Maybe because my world view isn't as narrow as yours? Again, what is it you assume I have in common with them... other than language... My Spanish is pretty good btw... and there you go with another assumption vis a vis the Catalonians crack. The overwhelming majority of the Spaniards I know are Andalusian.

I don't like the English as a whole. I have English friends, friends chosen by me for their views and character. Show me the rule that says I should like them all because I live and work here.

[Hibbyradge]

I have a lot more in common with the Spanish than I do with the English, and I live in England. Other than language, what exactly is it I have in common with them?

What have you in common with the Spanish that you don't have in common with your English friends or English people in general?

[Hibbyradge]

I don't like the English as a whole.

That's simply racist.

[Jack Hackett]

That's simply racist.

How's that then? When did the English become a race? I don't like Hearts supporters, does that make me racist? Get a grip. I don't like the English as a whole because as a whole, the are insular, entitled, arrogant and self absorbed. They are also very much what you've just accused me of. I live in England, I've lived in different areas of England. I've lived in Italy and France and now spend a lot of time in Spain. My place of work is multicultural. I have friendships and good relations with Spanish, French, Portuguese, Indian, Chinese, American people and about any Eastern European country you care to name.

Way too much of the pc s**t being used to point fingers at people because of a phrase they might use. GFY!

[Hibbyradge]

How's that then? When did the English become race? I notice you committed the rest of the paragraph when you quoted.

"I don't like Pakistanis as a whole.

Apart from a couple who I actually know."

Does that sound ok to you?

[Jack Hackett]

"I don't like Pakistanis as a whole.

Apart from a couple who I actually know."

Does that sound ok to you?

You're very selective in your quotes aren't you?

you missed this bit out

"Way too much of the pc s**t being used to point fingers at people because of a phrase they might use. GFY!"

[James310]

Maybe because my world view isn't as narrow as yours? Again, what is it you assume I have in common with them... other than language... My Spanish is pretty good btw... and there you go with another assumption vis a vis the Catalonians crack. The overwhelming majority of the Spaniards I know are Andalusian.

I don't like the English as a whole. I have English friends, friends chosen by me for their views and character. Show me the rule that says I should like them all because I live and work here.

Thanks, you told me what I needed to know.

[Jack Hackett]

Thanks, you told me what I needed to know.

Happy for you. I already knew what I needed to know about you

[Hibbyradge]

You're very selective in your quotes aren't you?

you missed this bit out

"Way too much of the pc s**t being used to point fingers at people because of a phrase they might use. GFY!"

The rest of your post wasn't there when I quoted you.

Your certainly not selective in your inability to answer questions.

What pc s**t is being used?

And what does GFY mean?

[James310]

Happy for you. I already knew what I needed to know about you

You weren't by any chance outside the Edinburgh Conference Centre with a banner at the weekend?

[Jack Hackett]

Your certainly not selective in your inability to answer questions.

What pc s**t is being used?

And what does GFY mean?

The pc s**t that gives you carte blanche to accuse me of racism because I phrased my dislike of the majority of the English people I've met in a particular way. My impressions of them are from my personal experiences. There's a good 15 million of them whose views are definitely at odds with mine, so yeah, I don't like them. Oddly enough, I don't like the KKK or pretty much all of Trumps supporters either and I've never met any of them. Does that make me racist?

If you can't work out what GFY means, you must lead a sheltered life

[ronaldo7]

You weren't by any chance outside the Edinburgh Conference Centre with a banner at the weekend?

Their were many banners outside the conference centre, and most of them supportive of English people voting YES, and English for Indy.

It's a pity you only decided to show one.

Try staying on track bud. This is a thread about the future of the Labour party. 😂😂😂

[Pretty Boy]

Another classic evening in the Holy Ground:faf:

[Hibbyradge]

The pc s**t that gives you carte blanche to accuse me of racism because I phrased my dislike of the majority of the English people I've met in a particular way. My impressions of them are from my personal experiences. There's a good 15 million of them whose views are definitely at odds with mine, so yeah, I don't like them. Oddly enough, I don't like the KKK or pretty much all of Trumps supporters either and I've never met any of them. Does that make me racist?

If you can't work out what GFY means, you must lead a sheltered life

You said that you don't like the English "as a whole", not the majority of the people you have met.

You didn't answer my analogy about Pakistani people.

Telling me to go f myself is classy and very good for adult debate. Well done. Point to you.

I live in England and have lived in different areas and I think your views are as narrow minded as you accused someone else of being.

There are 55% of Scottish people who I disagree with, but I respect their right to have a different opinion from me.

Maybe that's just me being politically correct again.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't like English culture.

[lapsedhibee]

Wee bit uneasy about English people wearing kilts to weddings. Isn't that cultural appropriation? Come up here, wearing our man-skirts.

[James310]

I don't like English culture.

Really, why is that?

[Smartie]

I love England, I love most English people and I love English culture.

The problem with England is that the bit that I don't like has some serious clout.

England has generally been an inclusive and welcoming place. English culture has always been a melting pot of influences from around the world, as you would expect from part of an island and it has always been richer for that.

There has always been an angry, right-wing, nasty side to the nation though and this side currently has the upper hand there.

I don't like to have my life influenced by such people and it is my acknowledgment of their existence that has led to me favouring Scottish independence.

If, somehow, the many decent folk of that nation (who I still believe to be a vast majority) could somehow get on top of that lot, then my desire for Scottish independence would be far less.

Possibly non-existent.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't like English culture.

I’m not entirely sure about Fife, tbh. :wink:

[Pretty Boy]

I like nice, decent people. If I can engage with someone on a social level then our 'cultural background' is irrelevant.

There are probaly people in Cornwall who I will have more in common with than people who live in the same street as me. The accident of our births has no bearing on my views on other people.

Andrew lives in Gretna and believe Burns is the greatest poet this island has produced, Glencoe is it's greatest natural beauty and Dalglish was it's greatest footballer. George in Carlisle reads Keats, won't see past the Lake District for a country break and loves Bobby Charlton. Are they fundamentally different?

[Fife-Hibee]

Really, why is that?

Increasingly more right wing. More and more of them peddling Daily Mail headlines. Their chronic "our taxes pay for your free prescriptions" chat. The general attitude they have towards Scottish people who visit or live down there. Their delusion that not only do they subsidize Scotland, but the whole of Europe as well. Their ignorance regarding history, particularly Irish history. Their anti-immigration agenda. Putting their trust in people like Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. That snobby conservative stiff upper lip attitude that they consider to be "British culture".

[stoneyburn hibs]

Are we culturally and/or socially any different from our southern neighbours ?

Not directed at anyone in particular but seeing as we got onto it.

[James310]

Increasingly more right wing. More and more of them peddling Daily Mail headlines. Their chronic "our taxes pay for your free prescriptions" chat. The general attitude they have towards Scottish people who visit or live down there. Their delusion that not only do they subsidize Scotland, but the whole of Europe as well. Their ignorance regarding history, particularly Irish history. Their anti-immigration agenda. Putting their trust in people like Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. That snobby conservative stiff upper lip attitude that they consider to be "British culture".

I used to live in England and in the Channel Islands with many English people for a good number of years and not one of them is anything like what you describe. You must hang out with the wrong crowd.

Scottish people are very much like the English, a recent review of social attitudes found we broadly think the same.

Findings

The proportion of people who view the economic and cultural consequences of immigration positively is similar on both sides of the border:

In Scotland, more people believe immigration is good for the British economy (46%) than believe it is bad (17%). But the same is true In England & Wales, where 47% think immigration is good for the economy and 16% think it is bad.

In Scotland, more people think immigration enriches British culture (43%) than undermines it (20%). Again, the picture in England is very similar, with 43% believing immigration has a positive impact upon British culture and 23% believing that it has a negative impact.

The relationship between attitudes towards immigration and demographic characteristics is also similar in both Scotland and England & Wales:

On both sides of the border, younger people are more likely than older age groups to regard positively both the economic and cultural consequences of immigration.

In both Scotland and in England & Wales, those with higher educational qualifications are more likely than those with fewer or no formal qualifications to see immigration as having a positive impact upon both the British economy and British culture.

[Fife-Hibee]

I used to live in England and in the Channel Islands with many English people for a good number of years and not one of them is anything like what you describe. You must hang out with the wrong crowd.

Scottish people are very much like the English, a recent review of social attitudes found we broadly think the same.

Findings

The proportion of people who view the economic and cultural consequences of immigration positively is similar on both sides of the border:

In Scotland, more people believe immigration is good for the British economy (46%) than believe it is bad (17%). But the same is true In England & Wales, where 47% think immigration is good for the economy and 16% think it is bad.

In Scotland, more people think immigration enriches British culture (43%) than undermines it (20%). Again, the picture in England is very similar, with 43% believing immigration has a positive impact upon British culture and 23% believing that it has a negative impact.

The relationship between attitudes towards immigration and demographic characteristics is also similar in both Scotland and England & Wales:

On both sides of the border, younger people are more likely than older age groups to regard positively both the economic and cultural consequences of immigration.

In both Scotland and in England & Wales, those with higher educational qualifications are more likely than those with fewer or no formal qualifications to see immigration as having a positive impact upon both the British economy and British culture.

Can you source these findings?

[marinello59]

Are we culturally and/or socially any different from our southern neighbours.

Simple answer, No.

[James310]

Can you source these findings?

Do Scotland and England & Wales Have Different Views About Immigration?

http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

[James310]

Can you source these findings?

Can I ask if you have ever worked or lived in England? Is your view taken from personal experience, if not how did you form those views?

[Fife-Hibee]

Do Scotland and England & Wales Have Different Views About Immigration?

http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

Thanks.

This was an interesting wee snippet.


There are, however, differences across Britain in the relationship between attitudes towards immigration and how people vote:


Those who vote for the Conservatives or Labour in Scotland are less likely than the supporters of those parties in England & Wales to hold a favourable view of the economic consequences of immigration
Labour and Liberal Democrat voters in Scotland are less likely than the supporters of those parties in England & Wales to take a positive view of the cultural consequences of immigration
Those who vote for the SNP generally have a relatively favourable view of the consequences of immigration.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can I ask if you have ever worked or lived in England? Is your view taken from personal experience, if not how did you form those views?

I've visited England numerous times, but never lived there. I know people who have lived there and have moved back to Scotland for some of the things i've mentioned.

[Hibbyradge]

I've visited England numerous times, but never lived there. I know people who have lived there and have moved back to Scotland for some of the things i've mentioned.

That's confirmation bias right there and your previous post.

The same type of tactic that the likes of Stephen Christopher Yaxley uses.

[James310]

I've visited England numerous times, but never lived there. I know people who have lived there and have moved back to Scotland for some of the things i've mentioned.

You have in the past been critical to those who form views from mainstream media outlets only and encouraged people to broaden their horizons, but you seem to have formed your views from a some visits to England and speaking to friends? Bit hypocritical?

[Fife-Hibee]

That's confirmation bias right there.

How so? As i've said, i've visited England numerous times. So I can relate to what i'm being told by those who have lived down there for extended periods of time and didn't enjoy it.

Just to add, I don't believe all English people to be like this. Particularly the younger generations who seem to have a better head on them. It's mostly middle to late aged folk who view the EU as some sort of German occupation. But I know how sensitive some of the seniors on here get when age is thrown into the mix, so I won't take us down that road again. :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

You have in the past been critical to those who form views from mainstream media outlets only and encouraged people to broaden their horizons, but you seem to have formed your views from a some visits to England and speaking to friends? Bit hypocritical?

Surely it would be more reasonable to trust my own personal judgements and people that I know well as opposed to some headline printed in a paper?

[Hibbyradge]

How so? As i've said, i've visited England numerous times. So I can relate to what i'm being told by those who have lived down there for extended periods of time and didn't enjoy it.

Just to add, I don't believe all English people to be like this. Particularly the younger generations who seem to have a better head on them. It's mostly middle to late aged folk who view the EU as some sort of German occupation. But I know how sensitive some of the seniors on here get when age is thrown into the mix, so I won't take us down that road again. :wink:

It's confirmation bias because you ignored all the information that James posted in order to find a few lines which, er, confirmed your bias.

Good decision about dropping the ignorant ageism, by the way. You don't want humiliated in argument again.

What's your definition of a "senior", by the way?

[James310]

Surely it would be more reasonable to trust my own personal judgements and people that I know well as opposed to some headline printed in a paper?

Yes, but it seemed like those judgments upon a whole nation were made on a few visits and speaking to a few people that used to live there. If that's not the case then fair enough.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's confirmation bias because you ignored all the information that James posted in order to find a few lines which, er, confirmed your bias.

Good decision about dropping the ignorant ageism, by the way. You don't want humiliated in argument again.

What's your definition of a "senior", by the way?

I don't doubt the information that James posted. However, i'm clever enough to realize that results can vary wildly depending on how questions are presented to the public. For example. One of the questions was about the "impact" that "immigration" has had on "British Culture". But plenty of people in Scotland don't identify with the idea of "British Culture", not nearly as much as they do in England. So by wording the question in that way, the result has to be taken with a pinch of salt. If it had been worded as "Scottish Culture" instead, then the result may have looked quite different.

I don't feel like I was "humiliated" to be honest. I recall presenting scientific data to back up the points I was making. I've never seen a group of science supporting lefties go so far to the right before when I did this. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

I don't doubt the information that James posted. However, i'm clever enough to realize that results can vary wildly depending on how questions are presented to the public. For example. One of the questions was about the "impact" that "immigration" has had on "British Culture". But plenty of people in Scotland don't identify with the idea of "British Culture", not nearly as much as they do in England. So by wording the question in that way, the result has to be taken with a pinch of salt. If it had been worded as "Scottish Culture" instead, then the result may have looked quite different.

I don't feel like I was "humiliated" to be honest. I recall presenting scientific data to back up the points I was making. I've never seen a group of science supporting lefties go so far to the right before when I did this. :greengrin

That's a cracker. Because you don't like the answer, you criticise the question! :hilarious

You were humiliated whether you realised it or not.

I'll ask again, what is your definition of a "senior"?


I've never seen a group of science supporting lefties go so far to the right before when I did this.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

How old is Jeremy Corbyn again? Senior or not senior?

[Hibrandenburg]

I've said in the past on here that I've never felt like a foreigner more than when I'm in London. I also didn't have the greatest experience during the 3 years I lived in the south of England and was constantly aware of the underlying racism simmering under the surface that would frequently surface when alcohol was involved. I also spent time in an English regiment that recruited almost exclusively from the north east and can honestly say it was amongst the worst years of my life.

The experiences I made were enough to put me off ever wanting to live in England again. However I've met enough good English people to know that my subjective experience doesn't mean that all English people are bad and I have many English friends that share my ideals and with whom I have much in common. I know there are many English people who have similar stories to tell about their experiences whilst living amongst Scots so I guess we're not that different from each other.

[lapsedhibee]

Increasingly more right wing. More and more of them peddling Daily Mail headlines. Their chronic "our taxes pay for your free prescriptions" chat. The general attitude they have towards Scottish people who visit or live down there. Their delusion that not only do they subsidize Scotland, but the whole of Europe as well. Their ignorance regarding history, particularly Irish history. Their anti-immigration agenda. Putting their trust in people like Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. That snobby conservative stiff upper lip attitude that they consider to be "British culture".

The bolded bit is an absolutely spot on description of some rabid brexiters, whether Scottish or English.

[One Day Soon]

What we really need is more flags and perhaps some marching, because emphasising difference that way has always worked well historically.

In particular it's always a good idea to make sweeping political generalisations about entire nations based on anecdotal evidence and personal issues - because they're all the same, right? Apart from 'the good ones'.

The great thing about 'the good ones' is that they're - by definition - the exception, which means you can position yourself as not having an irrational universal dislike for them all, but at the same time you still get to do that blanket thing where they're basically mostly inferior, bad people. Yay for 'the good ones'.

[One Day Soon]

I've said in the past on here that I've never felt like a foreigner more than when I'm in London. I also didn't have the greatest experience during the 3 years I lived in the south of England and was constantly aware of the underlying racism simmering under the surface that would frequently surface when alcohol was involved. I also spent time in an English regiment that recruited almost exclusively from the north east and can honestly say it was amongst the worst years of my life.

The experiences I made were enough to put me off ever wanting to live in England again. However I've met enough good English people to know that my subjective experience doesn't mean that all English people are bad and I have many English friends that share my ideals and with whom I have much in common. I know there are many English people who have similar stories to tell about their experiences whilst living amongst Scots so I guess we're not that different from each other.


Spot on.

[G B Young]

That's a cracker. Because you don't like the answer, you criticise the question! :hilarious

You were humiliated whether you realised it or not.

I'll ask again, what is your definition of a "senior"?



I have no idea what you're talking about.

How old is Jeremy Corbyn again? Senior or not senior?

He'll turn 70 this month so very much a senior citizen in terms of being well past his state pension qualification age.

Historical footnote: In the unlikely even that he ever became Prime Minister (and assuming there's no general election before August) Corbyn would be the oldest first term PM in British history, trumping Palmerston who was three months past his 70th birthday when he took office for the first time.

[Sylar]

I absolutely don't recognise some of the descriptions of England as been insular, narrow-minded and bigoted. I lived in Surrey and Hampshire for several years, and spent a lot of time in the capital during that time. I found it welcoming, friendly and curious, rather than this backward notion many here claim.

I've no doubt in my mind that there are small, backward towns and villages in England - I have a friend who grew up in Lincolnshire and she's certainly told me some horrible tales of growing up near Boston etc. But do you really want to try and tell me insular, backward and prejudicial views don't exist here in Scotland?! This myth that many peddle that we're a wholly welcoming society, friendly bunch that don't discriminate is moon-howling bull****. Try being a non-white person getting into certain nightclubs in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee or Aberdeen, or indeed just walking through the "wrong" part of town with someone of a different ethnicity (which can be Buchanan Street or Princes Street on a Saturday night sadly).

Try asking someone from the small mining towns and villages around the Central Belt what their attitudes are on Poles, Romanians etc. Ask them how they feel about "the gays", Muslims, Catholics...

People can try and claim these as purely English values all they like, but don't for one second try and pretend small-minded attitudes are an exclusively English problem.

[James310]

So in summary we are all very alike, share very similar attitudes and values and are as racist/non racist as each other.

I think some, not all, seem to think as we are Scottish we are somehow different but in a 'better' way, when in fact we are very much alike.

[marinello59]

So in summary we are all very alike, share very similar attitudes and values and are as racist/non racist as each other.

I think some, not all, seem to think as we are Scottish we are somehow different but in a 'better' way, when in fact we are very much alike.

Finally you have posted something I can agree with. :greengrin

[Smartie]

I absolutely don't recognise some of the descriptions of England as been insular, narrow-minded and bigoted. I lived in Surrey and Hampshire for several years, and spent a lot of time in the capital during that time. I found it welcoming, friendly and curious, rather than this backward notion many here claim.

I've no doubt in my mind that there are small, backward towns and villages in England - I have a friend who grew up in Lincolnshire and she's certainly told me some horrible tales of growing up near Boston etc. But do you really want to try and tell me insular, backward and prejudicial views don't exist here in Scotland?! This myth that many peddle that we're a wholly welcoming society, friendly bunch that don't discriminate is moon-howling bull****. Try being a non-white person getting into certain nightclubs in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee or Aberdeen, or indeed just walking through the "wrong" part of town with someone of a different ethnicity (which can be Buchanan Street or Princes Street on a Saturday night sadly).

Try asking someone from the small mining towns and villages around the Central Belt what their attitudes are on Poles, Romanians etc. Ask them how they feel about "the gays", Muslims, Catholics...

People can try and claim these as purely English values all they like, but don't for one second try and pretend small-minded attitudes are an exclusively English problem.

"Hick town England" and "Hick town Scotland" are very similar indeed, in my experience.

[Bangkok Hibby]

"Hick town England" and "Hick town Scotland" are very similar indeed, in my experience.

Yes believe it. Jeremy Kyle watching, mail reading English every bit as bad as "anyone but England" Scottish half wits. Ive lived with and experienced both sets and glad I'm out of it now

[makaveli1875]

"Hick town England" and "Hick town Scotland" are very similar indeed, in my experience.

Lived in Scotland all my days and cant say iv ever visited a 'hick town' .Any chance you could point some out for the less enlightened among us ?

[Just Alf]

So in summary we are all very alike, share very similar attitudes and values and are as racist/non racist as each other.

I think some, not all, seem to think as we are Scottish we are somehow different but in a 'better' way, when in fact we are very much alike.100% agree, arguably Brexit has brought some of the more negative stuff to the fore.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

So in summary we are all very alike, share very similar attitudes and values and are as racist/non racist as each other.

I think some, not all, seem to think as we are Scottish we are somehow different but in a 'better' way, when in fact we are very much alike.

I wonder how Scotland would compare if it emptied itself of Rangers supporting unionists.

[Mibbes Aye]

I wonder how Scotland would compare if it emptied itself of Rangers supporting unionists.

Ah hah!! Ethnic cleansing you mean!

So it’s true, nationalists are really just Nazis after all!! :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

You said that you don't like the English "as a whole", not the majority of the people you have met.

You didn't answer my analogy about Pakistani people.

Telling me to go f myself is classy and very good for adult debate. Well done. Point to you.

I live in England and have lived in different areas and I think your views are as narrow minded as you accused someone else of being.

There are 55% of Scottish people who I disagree with, but I respect their right to have a different opinion from me.

Maybe that's just me being politically correct again.

Having lived in England for the best part of 45 years and meeting countless thousands of English people, the vast majority of whom I've disliked, my experience of them gives me every right to classify them as a whole... and not just here, but overseas.

You still haven't answered my question about when the English became a 'race', but then you're partial to a wee bit of 'confirmation bias' and deflection yourself, aren't you going by all the wee snippets you latch onto on my posts? Maybe try looking up the definition of 'Racism'. 'English' is a nationality, not a race, but it's something you can hang your political correctness on and feel safe no doubt.

Which brings me to your Pakistani 'analogy'... Scotland and England are neighbours, with similar but diverse ethnicity owing to the different cultures who have invaded/settled here. India and Pakistan are neighbours, again with different cultures. If an Indian had made that statement concerning Pakistanis, would that be racism... or a dislike based on years of conflict and war between them?

You call me a racist and then get offended when I suggest what to do with yourself. If you'd called me that to my face, you'd still be picking yourself up off the ****ing floor.

Feel free to express your outrage

[Hibbyradge]

Having lived in England for the best part of 45 years and meeting countless thousands of English people, the vast majority of whom I've disliked, my experience of them gives me every right to classify them as a whole... and not just here, but overseas.

You still haven't answered my question about when the English became a 'race', but then you're partial to a wee bit of 'confirmation bias' and deflection yourself, aren't you going by all the wee snippets you latch onto on my posts? Maybe try looking up the definition of 'Racism'. 'English' is a nationality, not a race, but it's something you can hang your political correctness on and feel safe no doubt.

Which brings me to your Pakistani 'analogy'... Scotland and England are neighbours, with similar but diverse ethnicity owing to the different cultures who have invaded/settled here. India and Pakistan are neighbours, again with different cultures. If an Indian had made that statement concerning Pakistanis, would that be racism... or a dislike based on years of conflict and war between them?

You call me a racist and then get offended when I suggest what to do with yourself. If you'd called me that to my face, you'd still be picking yourself up off the ****ing floor.

Feel free to express your outrage

Neil Lennon said that the abuse he received from the stands was racism. I agree with that, even if it doesn't meet your strict semantic standards, and you hating an entire nation is exactly the same.

Funnily enough, a lot of people agree. Just Google anti English racism for some examples.

Here's a couple.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13413750.the-snp-doesnt-tolerate-anti-english-racism-and-it-does-a-disservice-to-politics-to-suggest-otherwise/

https://www.24housing.co.uk/news/scots-warned-of-anti-english-racism-ahead-of-world-cup/

What confirmation bias have I displayed and to what end?

I'm not offended in the slightest by your immature response to my comments. I'm criticising your inability to have a civil conversation without resorting to aggression, as you have alluded to again.

I'm not outraged in the slightest, but I now realise why you've found it do difficult to get on with the people you have lived alongside for so long.

Finallly, I didn't call you a racist. I said that your comment was "simply racist".

[Jack Hackett]

Neil Lennon said that the abuse he received from the stands was racism. I agree with that, even if it doesn't meet your strict semantic standards, and you hating an entire nation is exactly the same.

No, it doesn't meet my strict semantic standards. Lennon's abuse was sectarian, and I don't give a monkey's what convenient label is put on it for effect. The term racism has been hijacked because it gets more of a reaction... and where have I said I hate an entire nation?

Funnily enough, a lot of people agree. Just Google anti English racism for some examples.

Here's a couple.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13413750.the-snp-doesnt-tolerate-anti-english-racism-and-it-does-a-disservice-to-politics-to-suggest-otherwise/

https://www.24housing.co.uk/news/scots-warned-of-anti-english-racism-ahead-of-world-cup/

Again with the semantics, just because the word is used doesn't give it legitimacy

What confirmation bias have I displayed and to what end?

Are you having a laugh? You pick and choose from my post to suit your agenda, which is fairly obviously to make me out a racist.

I'm not offended in the slightest by your immature response to my comments. I'm criticising your inability to have a civil conversation without resorting to aggression, as you have alluded to again.

You want me to have a civilised conversation with some random internet dick who calls me racist? You're a laugh a minute

I'm not outraged in the slightest, but I now realise why you've found it do difficult to get on with the people you have lived alongside for so long.

Sanctimonious prat

Finallly, I didn't call you a racist. I said that your comment was "simply racist".

What were you saying about semantics?


You're on my ignore list just as soon as you answer my question about whether the Indian was being racist

[jonty]

Lived in Scotland all my days and cant say iv ever visited a 'hick town' .Any chance you could point some out for the less enlightened among us ?

Plenty in Fife. and the Scottish borders
And Tayside.

:greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Any chance of opening a new thread for the anti-English debate and keeping this one on track?

I know that slagging off the Labour Party is like shooting fish in a bucket and it appears at times that people are queuing up to have cheap shots (me included) but there's some good debate in there.....somewhere :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

What were you saying about semantics?

You're on my ignore list just as soon as you answer my question about whether the Indian was being racist


If I say that someone's comment is stupid, is that me saying that they are stupid, per se?

You do know that India and Pakistan are currently in military conflict, don't you?

You said you disliked the English because they "are insular, entitled, arrogant and self absorbed".

You still haven't answered the analogy to which you refer, but I don't expect you will because the answer would be too inconvenient.

If I introduced you to my friends here in England, your default position is that you already dislike them. No wonder you can't get along with people if you're looking for confirmation that you're right.

I would have thought that when most people meet strangers for the first time they have no preconceived ideas as to what they might be like so the chances are that they'll get along just fine.

However, please do put me on ignore. I'll just be another name in the long list of the thousands of people you have met and have disliked.

I'll take a belt and braces approach and reciprocate.

[Jack Hackett]

If I say that someone's comment is stupid, is that me saying that they are stupid, per se?

You do know that India and Pakistan are currently in military conflict, don't you?

You said you disliked the English because they "are insular, entitled, arrogant and self absorbed".

You still haven't answered the analogy to which you refer, but I don't expect you will because the answer would be too inconvenient.

If I introduced you to my friends here in England, your default position is that you already dislike them. No wonder you can't get along with people if you're looking for confirmation that you're right.

Ignore active now you pompous ass

I would have thought that when most people meet strangers for the first time they have no preconceived ideas as to what they might be like so the chances are that they'll get along just fine.

However, please do put me on ignore. I'll just be another name in the long list of the thousands of people you have met and have disliked.

I'll take a belt and braces approach and reciprocate.

Being condescending now? Yes, I do know they're at each others throats, and have been since separation. My question IS an answer to your analogy. If you pulled your head out of your ass, you might even get it

... and you STILL haven't answered the question

[Bristolhibby]

Yes believe it. Jeremy Kyle watching, mail reading English every bit as bad as "anyone but England" Scottish half wits. Ive lived with and experienced both sets and glad I'm out of it now

Not sure ABE is a good analogy.

In Sport I hate Hearts, I hate England.

I also live in England, my wife’s English and my kids are half English.

J

[The Modfather]

I think there’s probably very few Scots who bring anti Englishness into their day to day lives, and would treat someone born south of Gretna different to someone born north of Gretna.

I do think politically Scotland is, in the main, different to England and they have issues with racism/immigration that we don’t have. With sectarianism being the reverse. I take great delight when England get beat and never slow in letting my English in-laws know (sadly they have more opportunities to laugh at Scottish sport), but when I decided to marry my wife her being English didn’t come into consideration.

I think Mark Renton summer it up succinctly, “ some people hate the English, I don’t. They’re just ****ers” 😀

[G B Young]

I think there’s probably very few Scots who bring anti Englishness into their day to day lives, and would treat someone born south of Gretna different to someone born north of Gretna.

I do think politically Scotland is, in the main, different to England and they have issues with racism/immigration that we don’t have. With sectarianism being the reverse. I take great delight when England get beat and never slow in letting my English in-laws know (sadly they have more opportunities to laugh at Scottish sport), but when I decided to marry my wife her being English didn’t come into consideration.

I think Mark Renton summer it up succinctly, “ some people hate the English, I don’t. They’re just ****ers” 😀

Although his quote concludes: "Ah don't hate the English. They just git oan wi the sh*te thev got. Ah hate the Scots.”

[Fife-Hibee]

Although his quote concludes: "Ah don't hate the English. They just git oan wi the sh*te thev got. Ah hate the Scots.”

That's not what he said though. He called the English w*****s then went on to say that he hated Scots more for allowing themselves to be colonized by w****rs.

A valid point perhaps. :wink:

[James310]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/britons-more-sold-on-immigration-benefits-than-other-europeans

Goes against the narrative that Brits are bunch or knuckle dragging racists.

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour getting hammered in English local elections. Tories and UKIP also down at this stage. Pro EU greens and LDs making gains. Looks like Labour's fence sitting is costing them.

[Mibbes Aye]

Labour getting hammered in English local elections. Tories and UKIP also down at this stage. Pro EU greens and LDs making gains. Looks like Labour's fence sitting is costing them.

:agree:

Fence sitting or just division, either way it has been a terrible start.

They have already lost seats in Labour heartlands like the North-East and the Wirral to the Greens and UKIP with 20 to 25% plummets in the Labour vote share.

And in crucial bellwether places like Swindon, the marginals that are key to winning a General Election, they have lost a seat to the Tories, dropping 10% of the vote.

It is early days yet, but by any barometer, a governing party in such a mess as the Tories should be getting hammered as a consequence in local elections by the Opposition.

I could understand the excuse that a lot of the seats up for grabs are in the Tory shires but the examples I have cited are either what used to be rock-solid Labour areas, or key marginals they need in a GE.

Sadly just a reflection of the car crash that Labour has become over the last four years.

[Smartie]

The current Labour Party are a party of abstention and dithering.

They're being called out for what they are.

I disagree that the shift is towards the "remain" parties as I believe both remainers and leavers have abandoned them for other parties due to their disillusionment.

Labour could have had a positive message, they could have had a standpoint but they didn't. Instead of hacking off half of the people they hacked off significantly more.

[Mibbes Aye]

Labour lose seats in Walsall to allow the Tories to take control of the council.

And Labour lose seven out of thirteen seats in Bolton FFS. And Stockport looking like another car crash for Labour.

Again, what were once safe seats and what would be key marginals, simply drifting away.

[Mibbes Aye]

Labour lose the mayoralty in Middlesbrough as well.

The hit for the Tories is showing up more now, for some reason the southern councils seem to take longer to report than the northern ones and many won’t report at all until tomorrow daytime.

The Tories have lost control of Southend which will be a sore one. It is NOC however, the spoils evenly split between Independents, Lib Dems and Labour.

So, Labour being thwacked in their supposed Northern heartlands. The Tories being thwacked in their supposed Southern heartlands. I’m sure it won’t be as clear cut as that but we will know soon enough.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Labour lose the mayoralty in Middlesbrough as well.

The hit for the Tories is showing up more now, for some reason the southern councils seem to take longer to report than the northern ones and many won’t report at all until tomorrow daytime.

The Tories have lost control of Southend which will be a sore one. It is NOC however, the spoils evenly split between Independents, Lib Dems and Labour.

So, Labour being thwacked in their supposed Northern heartlands. The Tories being thwacked in their supposed Southern heartlands. I’m sure it won’t be as clear cut as that but we will know soon enough.

Dismal night for Labour given state of this Tory government. I've banged on about it plenty but they need rid of Corbyn to have any chance of winning a general election.

[Pretty Boy]

I had the news on about 4.30 this morning and some goon from Labour was on waffling about 'it was always going to happen'. It was said in such a way so as to suggest that somehow made it OK. They followed up with the standard 'we have been sent a message and we are listening'. We'll evidently you aren't.

It's tragic that the Tories have literally torn themselves apart over Brexit and Labour have somehow conspired to look at best comparably clueless and disorganised.

[One Day Soon]

Absolutely delighted by these results.

Two main parties with leaderships that are shallow, posturing, detached from reality and utterly in thrall to deranged extremists finally beginning to get exactly what they deserve.

The road to sane, meaningful politics is still a long one but the journey has at least started.

[Moulin Yarns]

Council by election in Dundee


SNP gain from Labour

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/883478/romes-victory-restores-snp-majority-on-dundee-city-council/ (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/)


only 28.4% turnout

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour lose the mayoralty in Middlesbrough as well.

The hit for the Tories is showing up more now, for some reason the southern councils seem to take longer to report than the northern ones and many won’t report at all until tomorrow daytime.

The Tories have lost control of Southend which will be a sore one. It is NOC however, the spoils evenly split between Independents, Lib Dems and Labour.

So, Labour being thwacked in their supposed Northern heartlands. The Tories being thwacked in their supposed Southern heartlands. I’m sure it won’t be as clear cut as that but we will know soon enough.

Yep, now the haze is clearing it would seem that the Tories have taken a bigger kicking than Labour. Low turnout would suggest that many pro Brexit Tory voters have kept their promise and not bothered voting out of protest.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/britons-more-sold-on-immigration-benefits-than-other-europeans

Goes against the narrative that Brits are bunch or knuckle dragging racists.

It does, pity the brexit loving parts of 'Britain' disagree. Still only 28% of 'Britons' though. Surprisingly they headline figure isn't the
37% of Britons feel the costs of immigration outweigh the benefits

So actually, a majority of 'Brits' are in fact knuckle dragging racists after all.

[JeMeSouviens]

Result from Sunderland:

Sunderland, vote share:

Lab: 32.8% (-16.8)
UKIP: 23.9% (+4.4)
Con: 19.1% (-1.7)
LDem: 13.0% (+9.9)
Grn: 8.4% (+4.9)


If Lab can't see from this that they need to stop supporting Brexit then hell mend them.

[JeMeSouviens]

Barry Gardiner - just **** off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48143435/labour-trying-to-bail-out-tories-on-brexit

I imagine that'll be going on every Lib Dem, SNP, Green Euro election leaflet. What a plum.

[Smartie]

Result from Sunderland:

Sunderland, vote share:

Lab: 32.8% (-16.8)
UKIP: 23.9% (+4.4)
Con: 19.1% (-1.7)
LDem: 13.0% (+9.9)
Grn: 8.4% (+4.9)


If Lab can't see from this that they need to stop supporting Brexit then hell mend them.

That didn't seem to be the take home message that the head of Sunderland council was coming away with last night. He seemed to think that he was losing councillors due to anger that the nation had failed to deliver Brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

That didn't seem to be the take home message that the head of Sunderland council was coming away with last night. He seemed to think that he was losing councillors due to anger that the nation had failed to deliver Brexit.

There has been a small swing Lab->UKIP and I bet they are very noisy.

There has been a much larger swing Lab->Green/LD and they are probably quieter.

[Hibrandenburg]

That didn't seem to be the take home message that the head of Sunderland council was coming away with last night. He seemed to think that he was losing councillors due to anger that the nation had failed to deliver Brexit.

To be fair in that constituency he's probably bang on the money.

[JeMeSouviens]

To be fair in that constituency he's probably bang on the money.

No, he's not. Result is a few posts above.

[One Day Soon]

Barry Gardiner - just **** off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48143435/labour-trying-to-bail-out-tories-on-brexit

I imagine that'll be going on every Lib Dem, SNP, Green Euro election leaflet. What a plum.


Truly the plum's plum. This is what happens when a bunch of student politics ouanqueres take control of a political party.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Absolutely delighted by these results.

Two main parties with leaderships that are shallow, posturing, detached from reality and utterly in thrall to deranged extremists finally beginning to get exactly what they deserve.

The road to sane, meaningful politics is still a long one but the journey has at least started.

I admire your optimism, but until the UK adopts PR you will continue to get the usual platitudes from main party politicians at times like this. Come the general elections the media will ensure you lurch from right to left wing main parties for generations to come

[One Day Soon]

I admire your optimism, but until the UK adopts PR you will continue to get the usual platitudes from main party politicians at times like this. Come the general elections the media will ensure you lurch from right to left wing main parties for generations to come

No thanks, no desire whatsoever to constitutionally entrench the cranks in the Mother of Parliaments forever via PR. Nor to hand over government making - and the politics of those governments - to a parliament filled with a range of parties not big enough to win outright but large enough to lever their own obsessions onto a national agenda without reference to voters.

[Bangkok Hibby]

No thanks, no desire whatsoever to constitutionally entrench the cranks in the Mother of Parliaments forever via PR. Nor to hand over government making - and the politics of those governments - to a parliament filled with a range of parties not big enough to win outright but large enough to lever their own obsessions onto a national agenda without reference to voters.

OK, Ive gone, and believe me you've no idea how chuffed I am to be out of this nonsense but I've always been political. Joined the Labour party at 20 and when I realised my youthful attraction to Socialism wasnt going to be served by UK Labour my allegiance changed to Independence with a view to starting afresh. I despise the Tories with every fibre of my being. Tell me how the UK will stop being naturally Tory with the odd Labour intervention?

[Mibbes Aye]

Barry Gardiner - just **** off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48143435/labour-trying-to-bail-out-tories-on-brexit

I imagine that'll be going on every Lib Dem, SNP, Green Euro election leaflet. What a plum.

I was going to post that last night but tiredness got the better of me. There were equally crass statements from Nia Griffiths and Dawn Butler IIRC.

[Bristolhibby]

Tories got a schlacking in Remain voting Bath.

Lib Dems win control for the first time taking 23 seats to end up with 37 Councillors. Tories lose 24 taking them down to 9 councillors.

Jacob Rees-Mogg now has a Lib Dem councillor representing him.

Goes to show what a positive Remain platform could get you.

Labour needed to go hard on the confirmatory election. They shouldn’t fear their leave voters switching, but should embrace the remain Labour voters (of which there are many) and become a party of anti Brexit.

Fence sitting has cost them dearly.

J

[Bristolhibby]

That didn't seem to be the take home message that the head of Sunderland council was coming away with last night. He seemed to think that he was losing councillors due to anger that the nation had failed to deliver Brexit.

Ignoring the 10% swing to Lib Dem, and jumping on the 4% to UKIP.

A very telling set of results.

J

[Just Alf]

article 50 challenge (@A50Challenge) tweeted at 8:31 am on Fri, May 03, 2019:

UKIP (ultra brexit) -70% [emoji88]
CON (hard brexit) -25%* [emoji2962]
LAB (sneaky brexit) -10%** [emoji2959]
LD (Remain) +110% [emoji38]
GRN (Remain) +550% [emoji38]

@bbclaurak analysis: "This could mean people want to just get on with Brexit" [emoji2957]

(https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1124214879919984645?s=09)



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Paul Mason on twitter:



3/ Massive LD gains show that unless Labour stops "bailing out" Tories its main achievement will be to resurrect the party of Nick Clegg - and if you think it's bad now, imagine a day when Barry Gardiner comes out waving a piece of paper signed by Corbyn and May...

[Moulin Yarns]

Not necessarily for this thread but the BBC projection for a general election based on the council elections is Con 28% Lab 28% LDem 19% other 25%

[Hibrandenburg]

Not necessarily for this thread but the BBC projection for a general election based on the council elections is Con 28% Lab 28% LDem 19% other 25%

I'm sure the Tories and Labour would have no problem forming a coalition, they're working well together so why not make it official
😉

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sure the Tories and Labour would have no problem forming a coalition, they're working well together so why not make it official
😉

Waiting for the joint statement, Johnston and Corbyn to lead the country to greatness 🙄

[JimBHibees]

No thanks, no desire whatsoever to constitutionally entrench the cranks in the Mother of Parliaments forever via PR. Nor to hand over government making - and the politics of those governments - to a parliament filled with a range of parties not big enough to win outright but large enough to lever their own obsessions onto a national agenda without reference to voters.

If it meant the removal of the flawed two party domination then it could only be a good thing.

[G B Young]

Should be borne in mind that voter turnout for these elections is negligible. I'd be surprised if it got over 50% in any constituency, while it's well below 30% in others. Most voters can't really be arsed which if probably a more accurate summation of what the nation thinks of politics at present.

[G B Young]

Tories got a schlacking in Remain voting Bath.

Lib Dems win control for the first time taking 23 seats to end up with 37 Councillors. Tories lose 24 taking them down to 9 councillors.

Jacob Rees-Mogg now has a Lib Dem councillor representing him.

Goes to show what a positive Remain platform could get you.

Labour needed to go hard on the confirmatory election. They shouldn’t fear their leave voters switching, but should embrace the remain Labour voters (of which there are many) and become a party of anti Brexit.

Fence sitting has cost them dearly.

J

I'm not sure that's the case. Leader of Sunderland Council says the slump in Labour votes that particular heartland is due to voter anger at the wedge of Labour MPs who are trying to force a second referendum:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48119196

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not sure that's the case. Leader of Sunderland Council says the slump in Labour votes that particular heartland is due to voter anger at the wedge of Labour MPs who are trying to force a second referendum:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48119196

So they went and voted for the Lib Dems and Greens? Doesn't make sense.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure that's the case. Leader of Sunderland Council says the slump in Labour votes that particular heartland is due to voter anger at the wedge of Labour MPs who are trying to force a second referendum:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48119196

Politician interprets voters rejection of his party as proof that his already held views were correct no matter what the evidence.


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[Bostonhibby]

Politician interprets voters rejection of his party as proof that his already held views were correct no matter what the evidence.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNail hammer heid. The constituency is run by one dimensional old style labour non thinkers who just expect it to go their way because they wear the Labour badge. There's plenty like it sadly.

They've misinterpreted the mood of labour voters by a mile. For the first time ever I'm unable to support labour in an election

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[Ozyhibby]

House of Commons seat projection based on today's local election results (from @skynews psephologist Michael Thrasher):
CON 280
LAB 268
LIB DEM 28
SNP 53
OTHER 21
Hung parliament. Tories largest party, but 46 seats short of overall majority. Lab/LibDem/SNP coalition?


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[JeMeSouviens]

House of Commons seat projection based on today's local election results (from @skynews psephologist Michael Thrasher):
CON 280
LAB 268
LIB DEM 28
SNP 53
OTHER 21
Hung parliament. Tories largest party, but 46 seats short of overall majority. Lab/LibDem/SNP coalition?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lab minority with SNP/Lib confidence & supply I would think? No block for indyref2 on those numbers. :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour were expecting gains of 400+, instead they are -120 lol :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Labour would finish 2nd! To this govt! Amazing!


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[JeMeSouviens]

Labour were expecting gains of 400+, instead they are -120 lol :greengrin

Tories were expecting losses in range 500-800, they're over 1000 with about 85% of results in. :greengrin

[G B Young]

So they went and voted for the Lib Dems and Greens? Doesn't make sense.

Possibly depends how many Labour leave voters actually voted there yesterday. Much smaller turnout compared to Brexit and I'd hazard a guess many will simply not have voted at all, partly as a form of protest and (more likely) due to disillusionment/apathy.

Various theories about Labour's failure here. Perhaps goes deeper than Brexit (which, after all, presently has **** all to do with local services):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48150656

[JeMeSouviens]

Great to see UKIP deservedly disappearing as well. :na na:

Although, I suppose Farage's latest mob are going to pop up and replace them. Speaking of which, I think it's fair to say Claire Fox their (former Revolutionary Communist Party) candidate for the Euro elections in NW England isn't going down well due to her failure to disown her own previous comments supporting the IRA's Warrington bombing that killed 2 children.

[Bostonhibby]

House of Commons seat projection based on today's local election results (from @skynews psephologist Michael Thrasher):
CON 280
LAB 268
LIB DEM 28
SNP 53
OTHER 21
Hung parliament. Tories largest party, but 46 seats short of overall majority. Lab/LibDem/SNP coalition?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCould happen because the non commital prevaricators will do whatever is required to maintain an income and lifestyle way beyond their actual abilities. Politicians are the ultimate survivors.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

Tories were expecting losses in range 500-800, they're over 1000 with about 85% of results in. :greengrin


which of course is even more laughable :agree: the Lib Dems have picked up the 'protest' vote this time, although i saw a headline earlier from LD HQ's that people were voting for them because they were the biggest remain party :rolleyes: can voters really not recognise the local elections are about,ermm, the local community, it was the same for the last Scottish local elections with Labour/Tory candidates campaigning that a vote for them was a vote for the union ffs :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

which of course is even more laughable :agree: the Lib Dems have picked up the 'protest' vote this time, although i saw a headline earlier from LD HQ's that people were voting for them because they were the biggest remain party :rolleyes: can voters really not recognise the local elections are about,ermm, the local community, it was the same for the last Scottish local elections with Labour/Tory candidates campaigning that a vote for them was a vote for the union ffs :rolleyes:

Parties when they lose at local elections - "it was all about difficult local issues, low turnouts, blah, blah".

Parties when they win at local elections - "this totally vindicates our national policies/is a sad indictment of the other guys, blah, blah".

[hibsbollah]

Labour would finish 2nd! To this govt! Amazing!


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Assuming you mean a UK General election, no they wouldn't. Nobody extrapolates vote share in a series of council elections into a General election.

Labour are holding a lead of anywhere between 3%-10% over the Tories in UK voting intention at a general election for the whole of April. Opinium had them at a 7% lead just last week. If an election were held now, Labour would be the largest party and might even have a working majority.

[Mibbes Aye]

So they went and voted for the Lib Dems and Greens? Doesn't make sense.

It’s not a straight swap. Labour leave voters stay home due to frustration. Remainers who maybe wouldn’t have voted come out for the two parties who are Remain, plus disaffected Labour remainers.

[Mibbes Aye]

Assuming you mean a UK General election, no they wouldn't. Nobody extrapolates vote share in a series of council elections into a General election.

Labour are holding a lead of anywhere between 3%-10% over the Tories in UK voting intention at a general election for the whole of April. Opinium had them at a 7% lead just last week. If an election were held now, Labour would be the largest party and might even have a working majority.

I think the figures Ozy cited are PNS-filtered which makes it a more accurate translation of local intentions to a GE scenario.

Regardless, we now have the ludicrous situation of Corbyn claiming the results show that voters want a Brexit deal done.

I mean really, what planet???

[Mibbes Aye]

Assuming you mean a UK General election, no they wouldn't. Nobody extrapolates vote share in a series of council elections into a General election.

Labour are holding a lead of anywhere between 3%-10% over the Tories in UK voting intention at a general election for the whole of April. Opinium had them at a 7% lead just last week. If an election were held now, Labour would be the largest party and might even have a working majority.

I doubt it. The leads you are citing are often with Labour in the low thirties and even high twenties. That’s not the stuff of a governing majority. Be honest, Corbyn isn’t convincing the electorate despite being up against the most shambolic government in the history of shambolism.

[hibsbollah]

I doubt it. The leads you are citing are often with Labour in the low thirties and even high twenties. That’s not the stuff of a governing majority. Be honest, Corbyn isn’t convincing the electorate despite being up against the most shambolic government in the history of shambolism.

You can spin it however you like, but it remains a sustained Labour lead in the voting intention polls, from I think ten different pollsters over the whole of April.

I'm not sure what 'PNS filtered' is,perhaps you can enlighten me, but I'm sure it won't alter the reality that they are council elections with an important but limited story to tell. The key findings from these results are a complete collapse of the right wing vote, Tories -1223, UKIP -138 and almost decimated as a party. Labour are currently -81.

Voting intention polls out next week will be interesting and tell us a lot more.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

OK, Ive gone, and believe me you've no idea how chuffed I am to be out of this nonsense but I've always been political. Joined the Labour party at 20 and when I realised my youthful attraction to Socialism wasnt going to be served by UK Labour my allegiance changed to Independence with a view to starting afresh. I despise the Tories with every fibre of my being. Tell me how the UK will stop being naturally Tory with the odd Labour intervention?

It won't, Cameron made sure of that by allowing Scotland an independence referendum. If we voted YES then Labour would've lost an entire nations worth of seats that The Tories never had a chance of winning, meaning they'd struggle to get into Westminster ever. If we voted NO because of Labour supporting The Union, then Labour would've been wiped out in Scotland, job done either way for The Tories, Labours massive support in Scotland cast aside whatever happened, guaranteeing a Tory Government in Westminster pretty much ad infinitum.

[Mibbes Aye]

You can spin it however you like, but it remains a sustained Labour lead in the voting intention polls, from I think ten different pollsters over the whole of April.

I'm not sure what 'PNS filtered' is,perhaps you can enlighten me, but I'm sure it won't alter the reality that they are council elections with an important but limited story to tell. The key findings from these results are a complete collapse of the right wing vote, Tories -1223, UKIP -138 and almost decimated as a party. Labour are currently -81.

Voting intention polls out next week will be interesting and tell us a lot more.

Only one person trying to spin here and you’re not really succeeding

As for PNS filtering I’m sure you can manage to Google it.

The key findings aren’t a collapse of a right wing vote. They are a rejection of the shambles that the Tories and Labour currently represent.

But back to spin, you aren’t answering the point are you? A Labour lead when it is polling in the low thirties isn’t really consequential is it? What sort of working majority do you really think that will produce? Why isn’t the Opposition miles ahead at this point of the political cycle?

The Tories should be an open goal for Labour but because of Corbyn and loons like Milne we have the most ham-fisted, supine and incompetent opposition in parliamentary history.

[Fife-Hibee]

House of Commons seat projection based on today's local election results (from @skynews psephologist Michael Thrasher):
CON 280
LAB 268
LIB DEM 28
SNP 53
OTHER 21
Hung parliament. Tories largest party, but 46 seats short of overall majority. Lab/LibDem/SNP coalition?


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It would just be a Labour/LibDem partnership with Labour "inviting" the SNP to either back their policies or not, while giving up zero concessions.

[hibsbollah]

Only one person trying to spin here and you’re not really succeeding

As for PNS filtering I’m sure you can manage to Google it.

The key findings aren’t a collapse of a right wing vote. They are a rejection of the shambles that the Tories and Labour currently represent.

But back to spin, you aren’t answering the point are you? A Labour lead when it is polling in the low thirties isn’t really consequential is it? What sort of working majority do you really think that will produce? Why isn’t the Opposition miles ahead at this point of the political cycle?

The Tories should be an open goal for Labour but because of Corbyn and loons like Milne we have the most ham-fisted, supine and incompetent opposition in parliamentary history.

You think I'm 'spinning' because I'm stating some facts?

The fact that Labours lead in the voting intention polls appears to annoy you so much isn't really surprising, but your annoyance doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

I was genuinely interested in what PNS filtering was, because I used to do some work in the psephological field and I'd never heard of it before.

[Mibbes Aye]

You think I'm 'spinning' because I'm stating some facts?

The fact that Labours lead in the voting intention polls appears to annoy you so much isn't really surprising, but your annoyance doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

I’m sorry you interpret my posts as suggesting I’m annoyed. I’m not sure why you would. Well, maybe I can :greengrin

I'm merely asking why you would say Labour are on course for a working majority based on polling in the low thirties, and indeed the high twenties. That would surely be unprecedented in the history of ever?

And there’s still the point of Corbyn saying the results show that we need a Brexit deal done. What’s that all about? Does he know more of the party membership voted for Remain than voted for him?

[hibsbollah]

I’m sorry you interpret my posts as suggesting I’m annoyed. I’m not sure why you would. Well, maybe I can :greengrin

I'm merely asking why you would say Labour are on course for a working majority based on polling in the low thirties, and indeed the high twenties. That would surely be unprecedented in the history of ever?

And there’s still the point of Corbyn saying the results show that we need a Brexit deal done. What’s that all about? Does he know more of the party membership voted for Remain than voted for him?

If you have a ten point lead in the polls, obviously that does not translate into seats, because we don't have a first past the post system. But it does suggest you will be the largest party, and it does mean there is a possibility of attaining a working majority. What it certainly does do is deny the Conservatives such a majority. And you certainly can't extrapolate Labour would finish second in a general election based on some local elections, which was ozys point.

Why do you think Labour now has a sustained lead in the polls?

And please gonnae go on and tell us what PNS filtering is? I've even googled it:greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

I’m sorry you interpret my posts as suggesting I’m annoyed. I’m not sure why you would. Well, maybe I can :greengrin

I'm merely asking why you would say Labour are on course for a working majority based on polling in the low thirties, and indeed the high twenties. That would surely be unprecedented in the history of ever?

And there’s still the point of Corbyn saying the results show that we need a Brexit deal done. What’s that all about? Does he know more of the party membership voted for Remain than voted for him?

Funny... that's what May said as well. You can smell the fear from both of them

[Mibbes Aye]

If you have a ten point lead in the polls, obviously that does not translate into seats, because we don't have a first past the post system. But it does suggest you will be the largest party, and it does mean there is a possibility of attaining a working majority. What it certainly does do is deny the Conservatives such a majority. And you certainly can't extrapolate Labour would finish second in a general election based on some local elections, which was ozys point.

Why do you think Labour now has a sustained lead in the polls?

And please gonnae go on and tell us what PNS filtering is? I've even googled it:greengrin

I know you read the Guardian because you sometimes link to it, though it is usually Owen Jones (joking) :greengrin

Today’s G coverage of the election covers PNS in detail, you would see it in the election updates but just for you, this is a link

https://electionsetc.com/2019/05/01/calculating-the-local-elections-projected-national-share-pns-and-projected-house-of-commons-in-2019/

Being honest I’m not totally convinced of the methodology and I also don’t buy into the cult of John Curtice - there is more than a touch of the emperor’s new clothes about what he does with data and he spectacularly crashed when the SNP won an outright majority at Holyrood. Nevertheless PNS does offer a bridge between local results and potential GE results, though as said, the variables are pretty significant.

As to your question, why Labour has a sustained lead? I don’t think they are polling higher than their core vote, in fact I think they are potentially polling lower. I’m sure this time last year or before, Labour were polling high thirties and occasionally hitting forty. They have slumped, but the Tories have slumped worse and we can all understand why.

That is the shocker for me. There is a chance to capitalise on massive Tory dissatisfaction but Labour are riven by dispute and internecine warfare, meaning their vote has dropped, instead of arching. The blame for that sits firmly with the leadership.

And again, what do we make of Corbyn’s latest pronouncement? “The results show we need a Brexit deal done”? Tell that to the membership who voted in greater numbers for Remain than they voted for Jeremy!

[hibsbollah]

I know you read the Guardian because you sometimes link to it, though it is usually Owen Jones (joking) :greengrin

Today’s G coverage of the election covers PNS in detail, you would see it in the election updates but just for you, this is a link

https://electionsetc.com/2019/05/01/calculating-the-local-elections-projected-national-share-pns-and-projected-house-of-commons-in-2019/

Being honest I’m not totally convinced of the methodology and I also don’t buy into the cult of John Curtice - there is more than a touch of the emperor’s new clothes about what he does with data and he spectacularly crashed when the SNP won an outright majority at Holyrood. Nevertheless PNS does offer a bridge between local results and potential GE results, though as said, the variables are pretty significant.

As to your question, why Labour has a sustained lead? I don’t think they are polling higher than their core vote, in fact I think they are potentially polling lower. I’m sure this time last year or before, Labour were polling high thirties and occasionally hitting forty. They have slumped, but the Tories have slumped worse and we can all understand why.

That is the shocker for me. There is a chance to capitalise on massive Tory dissatisfaction but Labour are riven by dispute and internecine warfare, meaning their vote has dropped, instead of arching. The blame for that sits firmly with the leadership.

And again, what do we make of Corbyn’s latest pronouncement? “The results show we need a Brexit deal done”? Tell that to the membership who voted in greater numbers for Remain than they voted for Jeremy!

Thanks for that. I'll read it shortly but the Marseille games on:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Labour failing to listen to their remain voters reminds me of Scottish labour failing to listen to their Yes voters in 2014. Looks like they may pay a similar price.


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[Ryan91]

Labour would finish 2nd! To this govt! Amazing!


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Probably one of the weakest Tory governments of all time, Labour was granted a golden opportunity to be a really strong opposition, but instead they have dithered and have at times been weaker than the Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/caa70c9312f3b2a5b2251f8384b1d38d.jpg


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[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks for that. I'll read it shortly but the Marseille games on:greengrin

Was doing other stuff and just saw this and have put the game on. I had a 1993 Marseille top and it was the pride of my collection and Sunday football at the park on occasion. A thing of beauty, that 1993 top.

[Pete]

Was doing other stuff and just saw this and have put the game on. I had a 1993 Marseille top and it was the pride of my collection and Sunday football at the park on occasion. A thing of beauty, that 1993 top.

Slightly off topic but I had the France Euro 92 top which I think was the same template. Foolishly, I got rid of it about a year ago on eBay. What a ****ing plonker. :-(

Anyway, a 10% increase in the vote in Dundee. Onwards and upwards 👍🏼

[RyeSloan]

Was doing other stuff and just saw this and have put the game on. I had a 1993 Marseille top and it was the pride of my collection and Sunday football at the park on occasion. A thing of beauty, that 1993 top.

This one?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/b5949b78e66f2721c92bbb85c4512264.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kw-F5l-MddY/VWXfKzPW5tI/AAAAAAAAB_s/gMpDEyI8XxQ/s1600/FRANCK%2BSAUZEE%2BSOULEVE%2BLA%2BCOUPE%2BD%2527EUR OPE%2BOM%2B1%2BMILAN%2BAC%2B0%2B-%2B1993.jpg

Peut-êtreOui :wink:

[Pete]

This one?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/b5949b78e66f2721c92bbb85c4512264.jpg

Adidas badge is wrong 🤔

[RyeSloan]

Adidas badge is wrong [emoji848]

Ahh good spot...damn pininterest fakey retro photo [emoji1787]

[Mibbes Aye]

This one?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/b5949b78e66f2721c92bbb85c4512264.jpg

Similar-ish. For the life of me I couldn't tell you the badge design but the three blue stripes, positioned as they were, in the shade that they were, made it sublime.

Little did I know that only a few years later we would be graced by a player who had worn that very same shirt and become a club legend.

I lost the shirt. I weep to this day.

[Mibbes Aye]

Similar-ish. For the life of me I couldn't tell you the badge design but the three blue stripes, positioned as they were, in the shade that they were, made it sublime.

Little did I know that only a few years later we would be graced by a player who had worn that very same shirt and become a club legend.

I lost the shirt. I weep to this day.

Also, didn't have the psuedo-Rankgers collar, it was more layered IIRC, maybe raised and white-blue-white?

It was 25 years ago, time for me to move on :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Also, didn't have the psuedo-Rankgers collar, it was more layered IIRC, maybe raised and white-blue-white?

It was 25 years ago, time for me to move on :greengrin

Pretty sure all Adidas kits at that time were the same style. Torsion range? Pretty sure the 1992 euros had almost every team wearing the same kit in different colours which put me off them all.


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[Bangkok Hibby]

It won't, Cameron made sure of that by allowing Scotland an independence referendum. If we voted YES then Labour would've lost an entire nations worth of seats that The Tories never had a chance of winning, meaning they'd struggle to get into Westminster ever. If we voted NO because of Labour supporting The Union, then Labour would've been wiped out in Scotland, job done either way for The Tories, Labours massive support in Scotland cast aside whatever happened, guaranteeing a Tory Government in Westminster pretty much ad infinitum.

Thats one way of looking at it but without doing the research, I think you'll only find 2 or 3 occasions historically where a general election result would have been different without the Scottish vote. Its one of the main reasons Scottish Labour voters were so disheartened as we could return a Scottish Labour majority but still be ruled by English Tories.

[Tornadoes70]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

[Fife-Hibee]

Thats one way of looking at it but without doing the research, I think you'll only find 2 or 3 occasions historically where a general election result would have been different without the Scottish vote. Its one of the main reasons Scottish Labour voters were so disheartened as we could return a Scottish Labour majority but still be ruled by English Tories.

Scotland has influenced general election outcomes in the UK a grand total of 3 times since 1945. 1964, 1974 and (oddly enough) 2010.

If you exclude Scottish votes in the 2010 general election, the tories would have had an overall majority and would not have required a coalition with the lib dems..... as if it really made a difference to anything in the end.

[Fife-Hibee]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

Tell me.... why is it that despite the huge loss of seats by the tories yesterday, Labour also managed to "somehow" lose seats as well?

[Smartie]

It's all very well having these polls but it all goes out the window when a general election is called.

In the very unlikely event that either Jeremy or Teresa could manage to unite their party and put a consistent, cohesive plan together then it is all there for the taking.

I believe that neither of them are capable and don't really know what happens from here.

Surely to goodness nobody can claim to be convinced by either of them?

[Mibbes Aye]

Pretty sure all Adidas kits at that time were the same style. Torsion range? Pretty sure the 1992 euros had almost every team wearing the same kit in different colours which put me off them all.


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C. I didn't know if it was Torsion or Torino. I felt like an Adonis though :greengrin

In seriousness, you're right, that was around the time of the market being swamped with the same styles. There were many ugly European national kits in the early to mid-nineties.

The Marseille top had a certain cache - glossy white and the pale blue stripes. This would be lucky to be an away top for most clubs but for OM it was the home colours.

[Tornadoes70]

Tell me.... why is it that despite the huge loss of seats by the tories yesterday, Labour also managed to "somehow" lose seats as well?

I already stated that the homegrown snp separatists weren't accountable whereas us world wide Labour Party is.

Scotland is but a tiny country that does very very well out of being part of the UK.

I'm Scottish, I love Scotland and I love being part of the UK.

Everyone to their own eh?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

[Fife-Hibee]

I already stated that the homegrown snp separatists weren't accountable whereas us world wide Labour Party is.

Scotland is but a tiny country that does very very well out of being part of the UK.

I'm Scottish, I love Scotland and I love being part of the UK.

Everyone to their own eh?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

I can't quite shake the feeling that you're at the wind up. If Scotland is a country that's doing "very very well out of being part of the UK", then why would you wish to replace the tories at Westminster, or the SNP in Scotland for that matter? After all, we're doing "very very well" in your view.

[Bangkok Hibby]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

Who is this post aimed at? Who is trolling?

[GlesgaeHibby]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

Not done so well holding antisemitic behaviour to account.

The only person trolling here is you, coming onto a thread about the future of Labour and launching in with your usual tired comparisons of SNP nationalism to that of Nazis.

After the dismal local election results for Labour it's maybe time to acknowledge Corbyn is the issue.

[Just Alf]

Who is this post aimed at? Who is trolling?I'd figured he'd lost it and and was giving himself a row for going off topic and blatantly trolling in his previous paragraph? :dunno:



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[Bristolhibby]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

And Anti Semitism?

[marinello59]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

Anas Sarwar would disagree.

[Future17]

At least we're accountable.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:

This part must be an attempt at satire.

[hibsbollah]

Was doing other stuff and just saw this and have put the game on. I had a 1993 Marseille top and it was the pride of my collection and Sunday football at the park on occasion. A thing of beauty, that 1993 top.

The other reason that kit has resonance for Scots is Rangers drew Marseille in the European Cup that year and both legs were live on free to air TV. That was my introduction to OM; Boksic, Abi Pelé, Desailly, Sauzee of course and Barthez between the sticks against that particular club with Hateley and McCoist up front. Theyve had a couple of great third kits but the 92/93 one, or Chris Waddle era Panasonic is probably the classic.


Oh :hijack:
'Mon Labour.

[JeMeSouviens]

The other reason that kit has resonance for Scots is Rangers drew Marseille in the European Cup that year and both legs were live on free to air TV. That was my introduction to OM; Boksic, Abi Pelé, Desailly, Sauzee of course and Barthez between the sticks against that particular club with Hateley and McCoist up front. Theyve had a couple of great third kits but the 92/93 one, or Chris Waddle era Panasonic is probably the classic.


Oh :hijack:
'Mon Labour.

I can’t believe you missed out Papin. I went to see Raith play Bayern at ER just to see him in the flesh. Even though he never really found his form in Germany. He did have a cracking strike in that game though. Hit the post, I was gutted.

[hibsbollah]

I can’t believe you missed out Papin. I went to see Raith play Bayern at ER just to see him in the flesh. Even though he never really found his form in Germany. He did have a cracking strike in that game though. Hit the post, I was gutted.

I think he'd left for Milan by then, I can't remember, but yeah he was incroyable:greengrin There is some great footage of his goals on YouTube, some absolute mindbenders. One of the great strikers of his generation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-robinson-quit-labour-corbyn-a8898306.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3VLKrXihPayrNfBZS8YWfxHjDWvZphGAIT9Sl2c sETU_bTiOYU1QxME7o#Echobox=1556891895


The actor, best known as Blackadder‘s Baldrick, who once sat on the party’s national executive committee (NEC), said Jeremy Corbyn had been “complete s***” as leader.


and another one leaves, can't be many left now, just jeremy,diane, keir, emily and momentum

[Tornadoes70]

I can't quite shake the feeling that you're at the wind up. If Scotland is a country that's doing "very very well out of being part of the UK", then why would you wish to replace the tories at Westminster, or the SNP in Scotland for that matter? After all, we're doing "very very well" in your view.

If anyones at the windup its the separatists.

You're attempting to persuade British folk to separate from the UK while unable to inform us what currency we'd be using thereafter among many other extremely important other aspects.

We in the UK have been born into the UK and would have to separate from it. You do not encourage me to in any shape or form whatsoever. In fact you positively discourage me from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Fife-Hibee]

If anyones at the windup its the separatists.

You're attempting to persuade British folk to separate from the UK while unable to inform us what currency we'd be using thereafter among many other extremely important other aspects.

We in the UK have been born into the UK and would have to separate from it. You do not encourage me to in any shape or form whatsoever. In fact you positively discourage me from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

But as you know. You're demanding answers to questions that can't possibly be fully answered until the negotiation process has ended with rUK following an independence result in a referendum.

It's very convenient to ask questions that aren't really relevant at this stage. It creates the illusion of uncertainty and is a great way to terrify old and vulnerable people.

I could ask you, what is the pound going to be worth several years down the line? You obviously can't answer that question. It could be worth next to nothing rendering us far worse off than we would have been if we had gone with our own currency.

Either way is uncertain.

[Moulin Yarns]

If anyones at the windup its the separatists.

You're attempting to persuade British folk to separate from the UK while unable to inform us what currency we'd be using thereafter among many other extremely important other aspects.

We in the UK have been born into the UK and would have to separate from it. You do not encourage me to in any shape or form whatsoever. In fact you positively discourage me from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Fife hibee has answered parts of the post but we could have asked a few questions right up to the Brexit referendum and would be none the clearer, in fact there are still many questions after Brexit day.

When a referendum is called it is likely to have a lot of the answers so we have a decent idea of what the future could be.


🇳🇬 Mon the Greens 😉

[Bangkok Hibby]

What a mess eh?

'Mon the Thai military junta 😀🇹🇭🇹🇭🇹🇭

[1875godsgift]

At least we're accountable.

The snp have been shockingly inept and have failed a generation yet have gathered undeserved support off UK generosity.

If disagreeing please provide proof thereof instead of simple trolling.

We are the party that holds nationalism, racism and other abhorrent behaviour to account.

Mon Labour!!!

For socialism, benefits, fairness, equality etc and against nationalism, racism, elitism etc.

:flag:


If anyones at the windup its the separatists.

You're attempting to persuade British folk to separate from the UK while unable to inform us what currency we'd be using thereafter among many other extremely important other aspects.

We in the UK have been born into the UK and would have to separate from it. You do not encourage me to in any shape or form whatsoever. In fact you positively discourage me from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

So which form of nationalism is abhorrent? The one you agree with or the one you don't?

[Fife-Hibee]

So which form of nationalism is abhorrent? The one you agree with or the one you don't?

The broad church nationalism is the evil one obviously. It's the one religion, one nationality, one history book, one football club form of nationalism that we should all be getting behind. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

By election result in Haddington and lammermuir.

Tories hold. Every other party increases their vote, including UKIP, and the only party to lose their share of the vote by 12%, was Jeremy's good old British labour party. Sunk into third place again.

[Peevemor]

If anyones at the windup its the separatists.

You're attempting to persuade British folk to separate from the UK while unable to inform us what currency we'd be using thereafter among many other extremely important other aspects.

We in the UK have been born into the UK and would have to separate from it. You do not encourage me to in any shape or form whatsoever. In fact you positively discourage me from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

And what of those born into the EU? If Brexit goes ahead will people in the UK stop being European?

If Scotland gains independance, will Scottish people be any less British?

[Hiber-nation]

By election result in Haddington and lammermuir.

Tories hold. Every other party increases their vote, including UKIP, and the only party to lose their share of the vote by 12%, was Jeremy's good old British labour party. Sunk into third place again.

Come on, he's playing the long game!

[Bristolhibby]

And what of those born into the EU? If Brexit goes ahead will people in the UK stop being European?

If Scotland gains independance, will Scottish people be any less British?

Great Britain is an Island in the North Atlantic. The country of Scotland is a part of that island. Scotland can be independent (as has been for most of its time as a country) and still be part of the island of Britain.

J

[Peevemor]

Great Britain is an Island in the North Atlantic. The country of Scotland is a part of that island. Scotland can be independent (as has been for most of its time as a country) and still be part of the island of Britain.

J

Exactly.

[Colr]

Come on, he's playing the long game!

He’s been playing it all his career. Events have led him to believe he has been right all along so don’t expect a change of approach from him. He’s pro-Brexit and will keep pursuing that view.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wait until the Scottish Labour supporters see the front page of the Scottish Sunday Mail tomorrow.😁

C'mon the Scottish 🇳🇬🇳🇬🇳🇬

[Ozyhibby]

Wait until the Scottish Labour supporters see the front page of the Scottish Sunday Mail tomorrow.[emoji16]

C'mon the Scottish [emoji1184][emoji1184][emoji1184]

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[Fife-Hibee]

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The real message here is to split the SNP vote by voting Green, thus helping out Labour and the Tories.

[Tornadoes70]

The real message here is to split the SNP vote by voting Green, thus helping out Labour and the Tories.

How did you reach that conspiracy theory Fife-Plato?

What a blethering skite.

:greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

How did you reach that conspiracy theory Fife-Plato?

What a blethering skite.

:greengrin

It's only a conspiracy to those who haven't a clue how the voting structure works. Usually the ill informed types who still vote Labour.

[Tornadoes70]

It's only a conspiracy to those who haven't a clue how the voting structure works. Usually the ill informed types who still vote Labour.

Wasn't me who said it was 'rigged' so how come suddenly its us 'ill informed types who still vote Labour'?

Do you get out of Fife often Plato?

:greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Wasn't me who said it was 'rigged' so how come suddenly its us 'ill informed types who still vote Labour'?

Do you get out of Fife often Plato?

:greengrin

I never said it was "rigged". It's quite an easy concept to grasp when you know how it actually works.

[SHODAN]

As a result of Corbyn failing to commit to a second referendum, the Lib Dems are officially back! Hooray! :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

As a result of Corbyn failing to commit to a second referendum, the Lib Dems are officially back! Hooray! :rolleyes:

Will be interesting to see how quickly the "party for remain" jump into bed with the tories again if the numbers allow them to retain power.