The future of the Labour Party

[ronaldo7]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/145382153_456010882199192_9048670002851681825_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=APbH--uwqkUAX-MdI26&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=4b31b7e095a019a80d58e43edf2e5f95&oe=60413D56


the chairs circle for £400+/month, oh joy


all those circles

Whit a riddy. This must be wrong. He's called Keir.

[Future17]

Politics would evolve in England, in a democracy there's always a need for an opposition and one would form one way or the other.

If Scotland were to become independent, I suspect the evolution in the remainder of the UK would be an increase in support for devolution, if not independence, for other nations and regions.

[Hibrandenburg]

If Scotland were to become independent, I suspect the evolution in the remainder of the UK would be an increase in support for devolution, if not independence, for other nations and regions.

To start with. Politics is dynamic, any vacuum would be filled by another group of snake oil salesmen. In an independent England, the Tories would start eating themselves.

[Stairway 2 7]

Have the snp said if they would keep on after independence. I'm sure a newly formed Scottish Labour would get more votes unless they were campaigning for rejoining. Also there is still a huge number of people that want the union I'm sure that wouldn't change after independence

[Hibrandenburg]

Have the snp said if they would keep on after independence. I'm sure a newly formed Scottish Labour would get more votes unless they were campaigning for rejoining. Also there is still a huge number of people that want the union I'm sure that wouldn't change after independence

The SNP are barely holding the different fractions together pre Indy as the drive for independence is the glue that holds them together. They'd disintegrate after Indy, in fact their differences are so great they'd disintegrate if they lose any upcoming referendum.

[Keith_M]

Seeing as this is supposed to be a thread about the Labour Party...


24310

[Hibbyradge]

The SNP are barely holding the different fractions together pre Indy as the drive for independence is the glue that holds them together. They'd disintegrate after Indy, in fact their differences are so great they'd disintegrate if they lose any upcoming referendum.

That's how I see it, although I'm looking from a distance, both literally and figuratively. I know people who are ferocious campaigners for independence, they even voted for Brexit (which they oppose) to expedite the process, but they are as critical of the SNP leadership and government as anyone else I've encountered. More so probably.

Although I'd be voting SNP if I was still up the road, it wouldn't bother me if they dismantled post indy.

I'll be interested, and a bit amused, to find out who the various SNP cheerleaders would go on to support when that happens.

Scottish Labour?

Tommy Sheridan's new mob when his ego decides a name?

The tartan Tories? :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Seeing as this is supposed to be a thread about the Labour Party...


24310

Just seen another poll showing the Tories ahead by 4. I think he's going to need a bigger flag.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's how I see it, although I'm looking from a distance, both literally and figuratively. I know people who are ferocious campaigners for independence, they even voted for Brexit (which they oppose) to expedite the process, but they are as critical of the SNP leadership and government as anyone else I've encountered. More so probably.

Although I'd be voting SNP if I was still up the road, it wouldn't bother me if they dismantled post indy.

I'll be interested, and a bit amused, to find out who the various SNP cheerleaders would go on to support when that happens.

Scottish Labour?

Tommy Sheridan's new mob when his ego decides a name?

The tartan Tories? :wink:

For myself, the Leftist side of the SNP split I would imagine.

[Hibbyradge]

For myself, the Leftist side of the SNP split I would imagine.

Which one though?

I doubt it would be a simple 2 way split. The right might be able to glue together something resembling a concensus, but the left has never had that ability.

Anyway, it's hypothetical and the wrong thread so no point speculating.

[Keith_M]

Just seen another poll showing the Tories ahead by 4. I think he's going to need a bigger flag.


Would it fit?

[SHODAN]

That's how I see it, although I'm looking from a distance, both literally and figuratively. I know people who are ferocious campaigners for independence, they even voted for Brexit (which they oppose) to expedite the process, but they are as critical of the SNP leadership and government as anyone else I've encountered. More so probably.

Although I'd be voting SNP if I was still up the road, it wouldn't bother me if they dismantled post indy.

I'll be interested, and a bit amused, to find out who the various SNP cheerleaders would go on to support when that happens.

Scottish Labour?

Tommy Sheridan's new mob when his ego decides a name?

The tartan Tories? :wink:

Probably Labour if they chuck all the Blairites (or they leave of their own accord) and become a genuine left-wing party again, as well as not attempting to rejoin the Union.

One thing's for sure, I won't vote for any party led by Cherry and the "trans people don't deserve basic anti-discrimination rights" faction of the SNP.

[Keith_M]

Probably Labour if they chuck all the Blairites (or they leave of their own accord) and become a genuine left-wing party again, as well as not attempting to rejoin the Union.

One thing's for sure, I won't vote for any party led by Cherry and the "trans people don't deserve basic anti-discrimination rights" faction of the SNP.


I'm not particularly a fan of Cherry, but is there really a faction in the SNP that says that trans people shouldn't have rights?

[One Day Soon]

I'm not particularly a fan of Cherry, but is there really a faction in the SNP that says that trans people shouldn't have rights?


Oh ****, set the controls for the heart of the sun...

[SHODAN]

I'm not particularly a fan of Cherry, but is there really a faction in the SNP that says that trans people shouldn't have rights?

Her and a couple other MSPs amended the Hate Crime Bill specifically for discrimination on the basis of transgender identity. Highlights include it being ok to tell a transgender person to change their identity, or "deadname" someone (i.e. use their old given name), which can be extremely distressing to someone who's spent their whole life trying to get away from said name.

Deadnaming is a favourite of transphobic trolls online such as Graham Linehan or Wings who effectively used it provocatively as a form of bullying.

[Hibbyradge]

Probably Labour if they chuck all the Blairites (or they leave of their own accord) and become a genuine left-wing party again, as well as not attempting to rejoin the Union.

One thing's for sure, I won't vote for any party led by Cherry and the "trans people don't deserve basic anti-discrimination rights" faction of the SNP.

So not Labour, then.

Mind you, I wonder how many members Labour would have if "they" kicked out all the Blairites.

[JeMeSouviens]

Her and a couple other MSPs amended the Hate Crime Bill specifically for discrimination on the basis of transgender identity. Highlights include it being ok to tell a transgender person to change their identity, or "deadname" someone (i.e. use their old given name), which can be extremely distressing to someone who's spent their whole life trying to get away from said name.

Deadnaming is a favourite of transphobic trolls online such as Graham Linehan or Wings who effectively used it provocatively as a form of bullying.

She's not an MSP and the Hate Crime bill has nothing to do with Westminster so she can't have amended it?

[SHODAN]

She's not an MSP and the Hate Crime bill has nothing to do with Westminster so she can't have amended it?

Apologies, you're right - she was supportive on Twitter of the amendment. Yousaf and Kerr were the ones who amended it.

[One Day Soon]

Apologies, you're right - she was supportive on Twitter of the amendment. Yousaf and Kerr were the ones who amended it.


Not to get all German golf course complainer on you guys but this is a future of the Labour Party thread. Shouldn't it be restricted to puerile suggestions about flags and providing therapy to our more 'joyous and civic' comrades? :wink:

[SHODAN]

Not to get all German golf course complainer on you guys but this is a future of the Labour Party thread. Shouldn't it be restricted to puerile suggestions about flags and providing therapy to our more 'joyous and civic' comrades? :wink:

I'm fine with this - sorry for going OT!

[One Day Soon]

I'm fine with this - sorry for going OT!


It made me look for the Trans thread but I couldn't find it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm fine with this - sorry for going OT!

Don't apologise (well you can to ODS, but strictly optional, tbh I would've thought any distraction from Labour's fortunes would be welcomed with open arms there but wtfdik?).

I must admit i don't know/understand any of the internecine SNP warfare over the trans issue. So was hoping to be illuminated.

[Keith_M]

Not to get all German golf course complainer on you guys but this is a future of the Labour Party thread. Shouldn't it be restricted to puerile suggestions about flags and providing therapy to our more 'joyous and civic' comrades? :wink:


TBH, I've already lost track of which thread is for what purpose, as the hard core pro and anti independence supporters on here (such as yourself and Ozy) continually take threads off track with petty jibes at each other (which is entertaining, if a little confusing :wink:).

[Hibrandenburg]

TBH, I've already lost track of which thread is for what purpose, as the hard core pro and anti independence supporters on here (such as yourself and Ozy) continually take threads off track with petty jibes at each other (which is entertaining, if a little confusing :wink:).

:tsk tsk: As a point of order, I'd like it recorded in the minutes that I have neither mentioned the words German nor Golf on this thread, however I'll happily hold my hands up to national socialism like a French Legionnaire.

[Keith_M]

:tsk tsk: As a point of order, I'd like it recorded in the minutes that I have neither mentioned the words German nor Golf on this thread, however I'll happily hold my hands up to national socialism like a French Legionnaire.


Sorry to have to disagree, but you have now.

:wink:



OK, as a way to make amends HERE (https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?206921-smart-jokes-so-bad-they-re-good&p=6454266&viewfull=1#post6454266)'s a wee Golf joke.... which I've moved to the correct location so as not to annoy ODS any more than necessary.

[Hibbyradge]

:tsk tsk: As a point of order, I'd like it recorded in the minutes that I have neither mentioned the words German nor Golf on this thread, however I'll happily hold my hands up to national socialism like a French Legionnaire.

Can I just say that this is the first time I've ever been on television...

[Hiber-nation]

Can I just say that this is the first time I've ever been on television...

No I'm sorry there isn't time because we're going straight to....Luton!

[Ozyhibby]

TBH, I've already lost track of which thread is for what purpose, as the hard core pro and anti independence supporters on here (such as yourself and Ozy) continually take threads off track with petty jibes at each other (which is entertaining, if a little confusing :wink:).

Can I just point out it’s more than two days since I posted on this thread so if it’s went in a strange direction it’s not on me this time.


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[Keith_M]

Can I just point out it’s more than two days since I posted on this thread so if it’s went in a strange direction it’s not on me this time.


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Aye alright then, for once it's somebody else's fault...

[One Day Soon]

Can I just point out it’s more than two days since I posted on this thread so if it’s went in a strange direction it’s not on me this time.


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And in the spirit of bi-partisanship it wisnae me either. At least I don't think it was...

[Keith_M]

And in the spirit of bi-partisanship it wisnae me either. At least I don't think it was...


Damnit, I have to find another suspect


:wink:

[G B Young]

Marina Hyde's a writer I enjoy reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/05/britons-drama-keir-starmer-labour-leader-competence

[Keith_M]

Marina Hyde's a writer I enjoy reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/05/britons-drama-keir-starmer-labour-leader-competence


So, in essence, they want a real Nutter, but Jeremy 'Antisemite' Corbyn is the wrong kind of nutter.

[G B Young]

Just what they need. John McDonnell as leader?!

Labour uprising: Furious MPs demand Jeremy Corbyn ally John McDonnell take power (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-uprising-furious-mps-demand-jeremy-corbyn-ally-john-mcdonnell-take-power/ar-BB1dsOzN)

Labour's capacity to tear itself apart pre and post-Blair never ceases to astound.

[hibsbollah]

Just what they need. John McDonnell as leader?!

Labour uprising: Furious MPs demand Jeremy Corbyn ally John McDonnell take power (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-uprising-furious-mps-demand-jeremy-corbyn-ally-john-mcdonnell-take-power/ar-BB1dsOzN)

Labour's capacity to tear itself apart pre and post-Blair never ceases to astound.

The headline is such bollocks.

the ACTUAL story is ‘Some people think McDonnell and other candidates should be allowed to stand in a future leadership election, as in normal in normal western democracies ’.

The expresses take (and your take, presumably) is ‘furious MPs demand Corbyn ally takes power’.

There is also no evidence provided that that’s a widespread view, or many direct quotes from anyone. The usual pish from a paper that’s worse than the Mail these days.

[Hibbyradge]

The headline is such bollocks.

the ACTUAL story is ‘Some people think McDonnell and other candidates should be allowed to stand in a future leadership election, as in normal in normal western democracies ’.

The expresses take (and your take, presumably) is ‘furious MPs demand Corbyn ally takes power’.

There is also no evidence provided that that’s a widespread view, or many direct quotes from anyone. The usual pish from a paper that’s worse than the Mail these days.

Yes, but someone must be furious. No?

The Mail is a horrible, hateful publication.

The Express is a comic, a joke.

[G B Young]

Brits would rather Boris Johnson lead Covid pandemic than Keir Starmer, exclusive poll suggests | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-prefer-boris-johnson-covid-pandemic-keir-starmer-poll-b918950.html)

Latest polling doesn't make great reading for Starmer, although further down the article it does at least show that 48% think Labour is better off under his leadership.

I still think it's hard to draw too many conclusions in the midst of a pandemic and with the next election nearly four years away, but as the analysis piece points out 'if 112,000 Covid fatalities don't put the Opposition ahead then something's not working':

Keir Starmer’s poll ratings aren’t terrible... but alarm bells should be ringing | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ipsos-mori-poll-approval-analysis-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-b918953.html)

[Ozyhibby]

Brits would rather Boris Johnson lead Covid pandemic than Keir Starmer, exclusive poll suggests | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-prefer-boris-johnson-covid-pandemic-keir-starmer-poll-b918950.html)

Latest polling doesn't make great reading for Starmer, although further down the article it does at least show that 48% think Labour is better off under his leadership.

I still think it's hard to draw too many conclusions in the midst of a pandemic and with the next election nearly four years away, but as the analysis piece points out 'if 112,000 Covid fatalities don't put the Opposition ahead then something's not working':

Keir Starmer’s poll ratings aren’t terrible... but alarm bells should be ringing | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ipsos-mori-poll-approval-analysis-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-b918953.html)

I’d say the Tories are safe until 2030. Starmer just hasn’t got the X-factor.


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[ronaldo7]

I’d say the Tories are safe until 2030. Starmer just hasn’t got the X-factor.


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It's fine. Miliband says he's got a bigger butchers apron for him to try.

He's got a fight on his hands though.

https://twitter.com/Scotsterahoy/status/1358411903274516481

[hibsbollah]

Brits would rather Boris Johnson lead Covid pandemic than Keir Starmer, exclusive poll suggests | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-prefer-boris-johnson-covid-pandemic-keir-starmer-poll-b918950.html)

Latest polling doesn't make great reading for Starmer, although further down the article it does at least show that 48% think Labour is better off under his leadership.

I still think it's hard to draw too many conclusions in the midst of a pandemic and with the next election nearly four years away, but as the analysis piece points out 'if 112,000 Covid fatalities don't put the Opposition ahead then something's not working':

Keir Starmer’s poll ratings aren’t terrible... but alarm bells should be ringing | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ipsos-mori-poll-approval-analysis-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-b918953.html)

The Standard defines ‘Poll ratings’ there by the ‘has leadership improved’ poll. By the most important measure, voting intention, in the most favourable environment imaginable, Starmers polling IS terrible. He’s trailing or close to neck and neck most of the time, it’s not much better than Milibands or Corbyns was. Labours problems are systemic.

[One Day Soon]

The Standard defines ‘Poll ratings’ there by the ‘has leadership improved’ poll. By the most important measure, voting intention, in the most favourable environment imaginable, Starmers polling IS terrible. He’s trailing or close to neck and neck most of the time, it’s not much better than Milibands or Corbyns was. Labours problems are systemic.

I take your point but I'm not convinced this is the most favourable environment imaginable, I think that comes after the crisis has passed. At the moment it feels to me that the flag 5haggers (of the Tory variety in No 10 and of the Nat variety in Bute House) are still very much benefitting from incumbency in a crisis. Post-pandemic, whenever and whatever that is, will give a warts and all picture.

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish leaders battle could be interesting.

Sarwar, no to indyref2.

Lennon, yes to indyref2.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish leaders battle could be interesting.

Sarwar, no to indyref2.

Lennon, yes to indyref2.

Think they had a debate tonight on the bbc Scotland channel. Not sure how it went though.


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[ronaldo7]

Think they had a debate tonight on the bbc Scotland channel. Not sure how it went though.


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It was like watching Labour v Tories. I'll let you guess who was the Tory.

[G B Young]

With friends like Andy Burnham, Starmer doesn't need enemies (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/08/friends-like-andy-burnham-starmer-doesnt-need-enemies/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr)

[Ozyhibby]

With friends like Andy Burnham, Starmer doesn't need enemies (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/08/friends-like-andy-burnham-starmer-doesnt-need-enemies/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr)

Wasn’t Andy Burnham the guy who ‘lent’ Corbyn some of his mp backers so that he could compete in the leadership contest in 2015? Not the smartest but let’s face it, he has a bit more about him than Starmer.


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[Keith_M]

I take your point but I'm not convinced this is the most favourable environment imaginable, I think that comes after the crisis has passed. At the moment it feels to me that the flag 5haggers (of the Tory variety in No 10 and of the Nat variety in Bute House) are still very much benefitting from incumbency in a crisis. Post-pandemic, whenever and whatever that is, will give a warts and all picture.



https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF. %252buqqJOXmy3CxEBRvugkbAQ%26pid%3DApi&f=1

[Hibbyradge]

This thread is becoming unreadable.

Childish insults, terracing competitiveness and tedious repetition of opinions as fact is the name of the game.

It's pathetic.

[ronaldo7]

This thread is becoming unreadable.

Childish insults, terracing competitiveness and tedious repetition of opinions as fact is the name of the game.

It's pathetic.

In fairness, when those on here throw about the nationalist tropes about flags, they're only getting a bit back. Im sure they can take it.

What's your thoughts on Anas v Monica.

Who did you think came through to the people last night?

[ronaldo7]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF. %252buqqJOXmy3CxEBRvugkbAQ%26pid%3DApi&f=1

British nationalist good

Scottish nationalist bad

[One Day Soon]

British flag w4nkers...w4nkers.

Scottish flag w4nkers...also w4nkers.

[ronaldo7]

British flag w4nkers...w4nkers.

Scottish flag w4nkers...also w4nkers.

Labour stalwart turns on leader in double quick time. 😂

[Keith_M]

Labour stalwart turns on leader in double quick time. 😂



:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.

If you have watched any of the covid updates from either the Scottish Government or Westminster government then you will have noticed where the wrapping in flags is occurring. Also Starmer speaking in front of a flag.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.

Is the gay pride flag heterophobic?

[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;6461457]Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.[/QUOTE

You used to be a really great contributor to these threads, always intelligent and often thought provoking. I very seldom agreed with you on much of what was said but respected your point of view as it was usually well thought out and often backed up with some sort of evidence. Lately though you have resorted to petty name calling and it has detracted from your argument. It seemed to coincide with the indy movement continually polling higher than No. If you are trying to persuade folk that you are on the right side of an argument then calling them stupid names ain't going to do it. I mean Kool aider nat chums. Thats the kind of thing that Trump and his supporters were saying about folk they disagreed with

Edit. I should also say that it goes for both sides. It doesn't really add to a debate to just sling bullshut names about. Yoons, snazi etc. really isn't very grown up. If I have done it in the past i apologise but I don't think I have. I did once lose the plot with our ex pal Tornado once but I did apologise to him as well.

[CloudSquall]

I did suggest we think about what happens if Yes goes 20 in a row in polls :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;6461457]Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.[/QUOTE

You used to be a really great contributor to these threads, always intelligent and often thought provoking. I very seldom agreed with you on much of what was said but respected your point of view as it was usually well thought out and often backed up with some sort of evidence. Lately though you have resorted to petty name calling and it has detracted from your argument. It seemed to coincide with the indy movement continually polling higher than No. If you are trying to persuade folk that you are on the right side of an argument then calling them stupid names ain't going to do it. I mean Kool aider nat chums. Thats the kind of thing that Trump and his supporters were saying about folk they disagreed with

Edit. I should also say that it goes for both sides. It doesn't really add to a debate to just sling bullshut names about. Yoons, snazi etc. really isn't very grown up. If I have done it in the past i apologise but I don't think I have. I did once lose the plot with our ex pal Tornado once but I did apologise to him as well.



Sorry to disappoint. If you're not a Kool-Aider then it doesn't apply to you. Sadly some nationalists clearly are, though TBF so are their equivalent unionist British Brexiteer types.

I find that generally speaking posts along the lines of 'you used to be a good contributor' etc come out when people read things that hit a bit close to home. Another way of expressing what you did in your post would be to say 'Why can't you just stick to all the economic arguments? They're much easier to just ignore altogether or to say something diversionary about because polls tell us that people are ignoring that side of the Indy proposal anyway so when you keep talking about that it's all good for us'. I'm not sure that anyone is trying to persuade anyone else of the right of their argument here on the Holy Ground, it's much more of an echo chamber.

This has zero to do with polls and as you know my view is that there will be no Indyref2 for years so current polling is pretty irrelevant in my mind. I'll stand by my comments on those who wrap their politics in the Union Jack or Saltire. I can criticise flag 5haggers of all political persuasions because I don't have an uncritical and unthinking loyalty to the party I generally support or its leader.

[StevieC]

If you have watched any of the covid updates from either the Scottish Government or Westminster government then you will have noticed where the wrapping in flags is occurring. Also Starmer speaking in front of a flag.

Same with the vaccine minister when he was getting interviewed over the weekend, empty background apart from a big union flag.

[Keith_M]

Not for the first time our Kool-Aider Nat chums are a little confused.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you're wrapping your politics in either the Union Jack or the Saltire it's xenophobic w4nk politics.


Rool Brittanya!

[hibsbollah]

This thread is becoming unreadable.

Childish insults, terracing competitiveness and tedious repetition of opinions as fact is the name of the game.

It's pathetic.

I sympathise, and I’ve felt the same way myself, but your frustration should be directed at the Labour leadership, who are just punching themselves in the face, knocking the ball into their own net, use whatever metaphor you like. I’d have fun with it if I was a nationalist too.

An intelligent engagement with Scotland needs an acknowledgment that Labour might need to focus on a centre left agenda in a post independent Scotland. Without that public acknowledgment, you may as well Chuck away 60 Westminster seats and however many list and constituencies Holyrood seats the maths amounts to, ive never managed it myself.

And an intelligent engagement with English ‘red wall’ seats needs an acknowledgment that these areas contain white, poor, Brexit voters disillusioned with Europe, immigration and maybe multiculturalism, yeah;, BUT it also includes lots of other unlimited subsets as well. Rich and poor. Voters born in Europe. Poles. Non white people. Internationally open and friendly to Europe. And yes, left wingers also vote. They count just the same. Not everyone in Middlesbrough wants Flag and Family 24:7.

At the UK level, Labour could start by reclaiming some sort of ownership of policing, and crime and punishment. Red wall (can we just call them working class seats again like the good old days?) are disproportionately impacted by crime, more so than affluent areas. There is no intrinsic reason why the left should allow itself to be portrayed as forever weak on crime. Just because we don’t march about in jackboots.

[One Day Soon]

Rool Brittanya!


It's almost like you're ignoring the Nat side of this flag obsession Keith.

[Keith_M]

It's almost like you're ignoring the Nat side of this flag obsession Keith.


Sorry, I couldn't think of a Scottish equivalent.


How about 'Freedom'?

:dunno:

[ronaldo7]

It's almost like you're ignoring the Nat side of this flag obsession Keith.

He didn't ignore the Brit Nat side. Far from it. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Sorry, I couldn't think of a Scottish equivalent.


How about 'Freedom'?

:dunno:


:faf: and you claim you're not a Nat...

[Moulin Yarns]

It's almost like you're ignoring the Nat side of this flag obsession Keith.

I still can't see a cross of St Andrew any time I watch the Scottish Government covid briefing, unlike the UK ones where the United flag of 3 nations is always present. Even Starmer feels the need to parade in front of it.

[degenerated]

If you have watched any of the covid updates from either the Scottish Government or Westminster government then you will have noticed where the wrapping in flags is occurring. Also Starmer speaking in front of a flag.Can't say I've noticed any flags on show during any of the Scottish Government's covid briefings.

[ronaldo7]

Can't say I've noticed any flags on show during any of the Scottish Government's covid briefings.

Maybe they had them for breakfast.

[Jack]

Can't say I've noticed any flags on show during any of the Scottish Government's covid briefings.

You must pay more attention ;-)

The Saltire is on the Scottish Government logo which appears on all sides shown during the briefings, sometimes silly Nicky obscures it!

See the picture here as an example.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-23-october/

[Moulin Yarns]

You must pay more attention ;-)

The Saltire is on the Scottish Government logo which appears on all sides shown during the briefings, sometimes silly Nicky obscures it!

See the picture here as an example.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-23-october/

That's the government channel, not the national broadcasting service, and is a logo not a flag, you understand what a flag is, right?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210211/e15a84ef20d969e39bddbf569399d815.jpg
Is Starmer any more popular than Corbyn?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

That's the government channel, not the national broadcasting service, and is a logo not a flag, you understand what a flag is, right?I suspect Jack was being facetious [emoji16]

[Jack]

That's the government channel, not the national broadcasting service, and is a logo not a flag, you understand what a flag is, right?

I was using that link as an example of what has been shown at the covid updates, its the same stage NS is standing on.

Do you know what a Saltire looks like? It doesn't matter what the imagery is, its still the Saltire.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was using that link as an example of what has been shown at the covid updates, its the same stage NS is standing on.

Do you know what a Saltire looks like? It doesn't matter what the imagery is, its still the Saltire.

I only pointed out that the image you chose is not the national broadcasting service of the BBC, which doesn't have the gov.scot logo, and therefore is not rammed down people's throats, unlike the flag of the combined nations that is very prominent in the Westminster broadcasting.

[Jack]

I only pointed out that the image you chose is not the national broadcasting service of the BBC, which doesn't have the gov.scot logo, and therefore is not rammed down people's throats, unlike the flag of the combined nations that is very prominent in the Westminster broadcasting.

I agree. The Scottish Government is much more subtle.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree. The Scottish Government is much more subtle.

You will have to give an example to help me out. Where are the flags of St Andrew in the room where the covid briefing is held?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/04f5773fa2b5e42aa7a4288e51556c83.jpg
Even the BBC can make fun of the push to place union flags everywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://labourlist.org/2021/02/deliver-dont-dither-labour-must-drop-its-obsession-with-constitutional-issues/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Predictable push back against Gordon Beown from within Labour. English voters have no interest in federalism and for that reason alone, it can’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

https://labourlist.org/2021/02/deliver-dont-dither-labour-must-drop-its-obsession-with-constitutional-issues/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Predictable push back against Gordon Beown from within Labour. English voters have no interest in federalism and for that reason alone, it can’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Among the list of things they don't seem to have thought through is ... say they actually did deliver a "federal" arrangement (stop laughing and hear me out!), do they realise that even if they get some Scottish seats back and cobble together a majority, their UK government would only be handling a limited set of issues. They'd have given away to the federal states the very powers they're desperate to get their hands on?

Unless of course (heaven forfend) the whole thing is yet another sham to give away as little as possible to Scotland and make the horrible Nats go away? :rolleyes:

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1360263534005940228

Labour on the march with Starmer with a whopping 33% in the latest poll.

The socialist UK wonderland promised by Scottish Labour unionists has never been closer :greengrin

[CloudSquall]

""Ouch. "Who would make the best Prime Minister?"

ALL VOTERS
Boris Johnson 33%
Keir Starmer 31%

WORKING CLASS
Boris Johnson 36%
Keir Starmer 23%

YouGov Feb 10""

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1359905122248241152

But Scottish Labour will continue with the idea that the English working class is praying and pleading for us to return 59 Labour MPs to bring in the next Labour government..

[ronaldo7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1360263534005940228

Labour on the march with Starmer with a whopping 33% in the latest poll.

The socialist UK wonderland promised by Scottish Labour unionists has never been closer :greengrin


""Ouch. "Who would make the best Prime Minister?"

ALL VOTERS
Boris Johnson 33%
Keir Starmer 31%

WORKING CLASS
Boris Johnson 36%
Keir Starmer 23%

YouGov Feb 10""

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1359905122248241152

But Scottish Labour will continue with the idea that the English working class is praying and pleading for us to return 59 Labour MPs to bring in the next Labour government..



It looks like that Flag thing worked then. :faf:

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't understand the almost giddy glee with some snp supporters at labour's demise and future poor showing, and this is from an snp supporter. I want independence but people can want Labour to win every election in future England. I take no glee in the poverty and suffering the tories will bring to uk and then hopefully just England over the probable next 10 years minimum. Actually f all funny about that **** boris being ahead in the polls regardless of whose fault that is

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/12/forde-inquiry-delay-suggests-labour-not-serious-on-racism-black-mps-say

What a mess of a party. Zero tolerance for anti semitism (unless it's one of Starmer side) but 'meh' on others forms of racism.

[7 Up]

Ouch. "Who would make the best Prime Minister?"

WORKING CLASS
Boris Johnson 36%
Keir Starmer 23%

YouGov Feb 10

I wonder to what extent this is being caused by working class Corbyn supporters not warming to the new leadership? Maybe a lesson there for Scottish Labour as they select a new leader?

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder to what extent this is being caused by working class Corbyn supporters not warming to the new leadership? Maybe a lesson there for Scottish Labour as they select a new leader?

There is still time for Labour to switch horse and go with Yvette Cooper. If they don’t then they will lose. Starmer just hasn’t got it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Starmer just hasn’t got it.




I'm surprised you haven't mentioned this before. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned this before. :wink:

And as time goes by, more and more will agree with me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

And as time goes by, more and more will agree with me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They might. I don't see too many people disagreeing with you now so I'm not sure why you need to keep repeating yourself.

I can't imagine that anyone is in any doubt as to what your opinion is.

[Ozyhibby]

They might. I don't see too many people disagreeing with you now so I'm not sure why you need to keep repeating yourself.

I can't imagine that anyone is in any doubt as to what your opinion is.

Apologies, I was making a comment that I think Cooper would do a better job. Sorry for repeating myself. I feel bad for being the only person on here that does that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Apologies, I was making a comment that I think Cooper would do a better job. Sorry for repeating myself. I feel bad for being the only person on here that does that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice sarcasm. Well done.

[neil7908]

Politics has gone mad - Tories poised to increase taxes and Labour opposing them!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-tax-rises-budget-rishi-sunak-b1801992.html

[hibsbollah]

Starmers Facebook post an hour ago...

‘Delivering 15 million vaccinations is an incredible achievement.


A huge thank you to everyone working so hard to make this happen - you are giving much needed hope to the nation’.

Very polite. Nice to point out something that’s going well for Johnson’s gang. I’m not sure it’s going to make much of a dent in that poll lead.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmers Facebook post an hour ago...

‘Delivering 15 million vaccinations is an incredible achievement.


A huge thank you to everyone working so hard to make this happen - you are giving much needed hope to the nation’.

Very polite. Nice to point out something that’s going well for Johnson’s gang. I’m not sure it’s going to make much of a dent in that poll lead.

A smart leader would have pointed out the difference between the publicly owned NHS delivering the vaccine roll out and the privately owned shambles of test & trace or PPE procurement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

Starmers Facebook post an hour ago...

‘Delivering 15 million vaccinations is an incredible achievement.


A huge thank you to everyone working so hard to make this happen - you are giving much needed hope to the nation’.

Very polite. Nice to point out something that’s going well for Johnson’s gang. I’m not sure it’s going to make much of a dent in that poll lead.


Have to disagree with what you take from that, as I think it's a decent statement from Starmer.

[hibsbollah]

Starmers much trailed ‘relaunch speech’ yesterday seems to have escaped any comment on here. It was just very weird; instead of launching a new vision it had a narrow simple remit to explain how Labour will ‘work in partnership with business’. But didn’t even explain that in any clear way. What is this ‘bond’? Apart from being a ‘British’ bond? He’s like Miliband in that he can’t deliver a speech, he looks more fearful and incapable of authenticity and warmth.

[Jack]

Starmers much trailed ‘relaunch speech’ yesterday seems to have escaped any comment on here. It was just very weird; instead of launching a new vision it had a narrow simple remit to explain how Labour will ‘work in partnership with business’. But didn’t even explain that in any clear way. What is this ‘bond’? Apart from being a ‘British’ bond? He’s like Miliband in that he can’t deliver a speech, he looks more fearful and incapable of authenticity and warmth.

I think the Bond is a reasonable idea. Interest rates are very low just now. During the crisis some people have been unable to spend money on the things they would normally be doing, holidays, pub etc. so they have money sloshing about not earning interest.

The idea would be for them to buy a government Bond, say £100 and in 5 years time they they get £105 back when they cash it in.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think the Bond is a reasonable idea. Interest rates are very low just now. During the crisis some people have been unable to spend money on the things they would normally be doing, holidays, pub etc. so they have money sloshing about not earning interest.

The idea would be for them to buy a government Bond, say £100 and in 5 years time they they get £105 back when they cash it in.

Borrow from the public at 1% rather than a bank at what rate of interest?

[Ozyhibby]

I think the Bond is a reasonable idea. Interest rates are very low just now. During the crisis some people have been unable to spend money on the things they would normally be doing, holidays, pub etc. so they have money sloshing about not earning interest.

The idea would be for them to buy a government Bond, say £100 and in 5 years time they they get £105 back when they cash it in.

The govt can borrow at 0% right now. If it start selling bonds to citizen with an interest rate then surely that is just a nice little subsidy for middle class people who can afford to save. I suppose it is a British bond with a Union Jack on it.
A solution to a problem that does not exist. There are no shortage of places for the govt to borrow money from and surely we want to encourage people to spend their money, not save it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Borrow from the public at 1% rather than a bank at what rate of interest?

:tsk tsk: <0.2%

[Jack]

Borrow from the public at 1% rather than a bank at what rate of interest?


The govt can borrow at 0% right now. If it start selling bonds to citizen with an interest rate then surely that is just a nice little subsidy for middle class people who can afford to save. I suppose it is a British bond with a Union Jack on it.
A solution to a problem that does not exist. There are no shortage of places for the govt to borrow money from and surely we want to encourage people to spend their money, not save it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was really just explaining what a bond was using these figures as a simple example.

[hibsbollah]

I think the Bond is a reasonable idea. Interest rates are very low just now. During the crisis some people have been unable to spend money on the things they would normally be doing, holidays, pub etc. so they have money sloshing about not earning interest.

The idea would be for them to buy a government Bond, say £100 and in 5 years time they they get £105 back when they cash it in.

But that’s just the same as anytime a Govt issues bonds. We do it all the time.

[Moulin Yarns]

:tsk tsk: <0.2%

I knew as I posted that I was wrong, just couldn't be bothered working out compound interest. 😁

[Keith_M]

I knew as I posted that I was wrong, just couldn't be bothered working out compound interest. 😁


Admit it, you work at the Inland Revenue don't you!

[Moulin Yarns]

Admit it, you work at the Inland Revenue don't you!

That's just the worst insult I've ever had. 😉

[Keith_M]

That's just the worst insult I've ever had. 😉


Sorry, that was a bit much.

:embarrass


Will you report me to the Admins?

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry, that was a bit much.

:embarrass


Will you report me to the Admins?

Naw, yer alright, this time. 😉

[ronaldo7]

Maybe Sir Keir has other things on his mind at the moment. Always follow the money.

An influential Labour Party group with close links to Keir Starmer is under investigation by the UK's Electoral Commission after allegedly failing to declare over £800,000 in donations within the time required under law, Insider can reveal.

The investigation into Labour Together, which counts among its current directors' the Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy MP and Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Steve Reed MP, was opened in December 2020.

https://www.businessinsider.com/labour-together-donations-under-investigation-by-electoral-commission-2021-2?r=US&IR=T

[bawheid]

He’s like Miliband in that he can’t deliver a speech, he looks more fearful and incapable of authenticity and warmth.

:agree: The speech was like Miliband 2.0. Like Ed, he’s a nice enough chap. He’s not going to be Prime Minister though.

[Keith_M]

Starmer's New Plan....


https://media.guim.co.uk/b129751ea7c8f7a3e53e2fa4e6f3f78fcd9dbf83/0_0_7087_2563/2000.jpg

[RyeSloan]

The govt can borrow at 0% right now. If it start selling bonds to citizen with an interest rate then surely that is just a nice little subsidy for middle class people who can afford to save. I suppose it is a British bond with a Union Jack on it.
A solution to a problem that does not exist. There are no shortage of places for the govt to borrow money from and surely we want to encourage people to spend their money, not save it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe he could have called it a pensioner bond...oh wait that ones be used already.

Ridiculous idea this British Bond and the only one that seems to have made bag headlines as well.

War bonds were required as the government needed a source of capital from which to borrow. To suggest this idea is anything like that is just daft.

Not only do we have a fiat money system we also have one that seemingly allows unending creation of that money by the central bank with which it buys government bonds...handily pushing down the coupon rate at the same time!

So a British Bond would simply be giving money away to those that already have money in the shape of savings while costing every other taxpayer money in the shape of the government giving above market interest rates to the few.

Apart from this daft idea I really didn’t see anything else reported about this relaunch...was there really nothing else of note in his speech?

[hibsbollah]

Maybe he could have called it a pensioner bond...oh wait that ones be used already.

Ridiculous idea this British Bond and the only one that seems to have made bag headlines as well.

War bonds were required as the government needed a source of capital from which to borrow. To suggest this idea is anything like that is just daft.

Not only do we have a fiat money system we also have one that seemingly allows unending creation of that money by the central bank with which it buys government bonds...handily pushing down the coupon rate at the same time!

So a British Bond would simply be giving money away to those that already have money in the shape of savings while costing every other taxpayer money in the shape of the government giving above market interest rates to the few.

Apart from this daft idea I really didn’t see anything else reported about this relaunch...was there really nothing else of note in his speech?

There were two actual tangible things. A loan scheme to set up new businesses. And the Great British Bond. Nothing terrible, just not really what’s required. Is getting access to more credit really the nations #1 problem? From a north of the border perspective, also nothing. Which was odd, in the context of all the Union Jack paraphernalia you’d think he’d want to flesh out how the other nations fit into it all :dunno: It was almost like the old days where a Labour leader was assuming Scottish seats were already in the bag.

[G B Young]

From the Herald on Sunday. Don't know a lot about her but she comes across quite well here IMHO:

Monica Lennon: SNP 'reek of entitlement' and have wasted years in power

By Alistair Grant (https://www.heraldscotland.com/author/profile/81304.Alistair_Grant/) @alistairkgrant (http://www.twitter.com/@alistairkgrant)Political Correspondent
THE SNP "reek of entitlement" and have been taking people for granted for a very long time, argues Scottish Labour leadership contender Monica Lennon.
Speaking to the Herald on Sunday, she accused the SNP of wasting years in power, with a huge gap between its rhetoric and its record.
Lennon said she wants Scottish Labour to show it is passionate about "radical change", favouring neither independence nor the "status quo union that the Tories believe in".
She reiterated her argument that it is for the people of Scotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/) to decide if there should be another referendum, not Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
READ MORE: Monica Lennon says Scottish Labour should push for Devo Max not block Indyref2 (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19020779.monica-lennon-says-scottish-labour-push-devo-max-not-block-indyref2/)
Lennon has said pro-independence parties would have a mandate for another vote if they win a majority at the Holyrood election in May.
This puts her at odds with her leadership rival Anas Sarwar, who has made clear he will oppose a second referendum in the next parliamentary term.

If there is a referendum, Lennon said she will fight "tooth and nail" for a multi-question ballot and then campaign for a federal option.
She said: "I don't believe in independence. It worries me, the damage it would do to our economy (https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/markets_economy/) and the impact it would have on the people who are already struggling the most, the people who are living in poverty.
"But I'm also a democratic socialist and when I'm asked, 'If people in Scotland say they want a referendum and people in Scotland express that at the ballot box, what is your response?', my response is that is for the people of Scotland to decide.
"It shouldn't be up to Boris Johnson or any other Prime Minister to say no to that.
"And I think it would be wrong, it would be a disaster for Scottish Labour to hide behind Boris Johnson and take the same response as him, which is not democratic."
Lennon added: "If there is going to be a referendum, then I would fight tooth and nail for that to be a multi-question referendum.
"We shouldn't go back to the binary, divisive argument of 2014, and that's what happened when Scottish Labour just left it to the SNP and the Tories to decide what the question should be.
"This is why I don't want Scottish Labour to be on the sidelines. I want us to be proactive, I want us to have influence, and I want us to make the passionate case for change – but change in the UK, reform in the UK, and bringing more powers closer to people in Scotland."
Lennon said there is space for a grassroots campaign to make the case for "enhanced devolution" now.
Labour could play a big role in this, she said, but it could also involve trade unions and other civic groups.
The 40-year-old has served as an MSP for the Central Scotland region since 2016 and was previously a councillor and planning officer.
She recently hit the headlines after driving forward legislative change that led to Scotland becoming the first country in the world to introduce free universal access to period products.
Lennon is backed by many on the party's left but is seen as the underdog in the leadership contest.
She said she would want Sarwar to play "a big role" in her shadow cabinet if she won the battle to be the next Scottish Labour leader. The winner is due to be announced on February 27.
Lennon said her overriding mission will be to end child poverty.
She is also passionate about addressing Scotland's drug deaths scandal, which she describes as a shameful "stain" on Holyrood.
Asked why Labour has lost its relevance in Scotland in recent years, she said it's "not just a recent issue", adding: "We've been haemorrhaging votes since the start of devolution."
She added: "We've been in opposition since 2007, so we haven't won an election in the Scottish Parliament for a very long time.
"And if you look more recently, at what happened roundabout the time of 2014 and the referendum and what happened after that, the disconnect between Scottish Labour and our traditional heartlands just grew even bigger."
Lennon said the party took voters for granted in the past.
She said: "We stopped listening to people about the changes that they wanted in their lives."
She added: "We've not really changed. We haven't really modernised, and people perhaps look at Labour and see us in recent years as being a bit stuck in the past and not being able to move on, and being perhaps a bit bitter, a bit grumpy towards the SNP."
Lennon said there is a need for a Scottish Labour Party, adding: "We believe in social justice. We don't believe in independence and we don't believe in the status quo union that the Tories believe in.
"We want radical change. We want bold change in how the country is run, because the country's too unequal."
The SNP Government, Lennon argued, has been characterised by "task forces and working groups and pilot schemes, and they'll hand out little bits of money here and there, but it's not transformative".
She said: "You asked me about Labour, when I said Labour took people for granted in the past when we had the privilege of being in government.
"If you look at the SNP, they just reek of entitlement. They have been taking people for granted for a very long time.
"If you look at the gap between rhetoric and record, it's huge.
"Nicola Sturgeon, who promised to close the poverty-related attainment gap, who promised to make education (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/) her priority, who talked about giving children in Scotland the best start in life – she just hasn't delivered."
However Lennon stressed it's not good enough for Labour to just sit back and wait for the SNP to "disappoint people".
She added: "Scottish Labour's got to inspire people to want to come out and vote for Labour."
Asked about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP's biggest weaknesses, Lennon said Sturgeon "is the establishment", adding: "She's been in the parliament since 1999.
"From a young age she's been campaigning to be a politician. She's been a politician her whole adult life.
"I think she's become very comfortable as leader of her party, as First Minister.
"I can understand why some people in the SNP who desperately want a referendum feel that Nicola Sturgeon actually wants power more than she wants independence.
"But it's not for me to critique what's happening within the SNP – they clearly have their issues right now, which has become a distraction during a pandemic.
"My biggest frustration as a citizen and as an MSP is that they've wasted so many years in government, where they could have been bold, they could have used the powers of the parliament more progressively to really tackle the big issues that are holding people back."

[CropleyWasGod]

Someone in the Labour Party says that the SNP "reek of entitlement" and have been "taking people for granted for too long".

Someone in the Labour Party. :confused:

[Just Alf]

From the Herald on Sunday. Don't know a lot about her but she comes across quite well here IMHO:

Monica Lennon: SNP 'reek of entitlement' and have wasted years in power

By Alistair Grant (https://www.heraldscotland.com/author/profile/81304.Alistair_Grant/) @alistairkgrant (http://www.twitter.com/@alistairkgrant)Political Correspondent
THE SNP "reek of entitlement" and have been taking people for granted for a very long time, argues Scottish Labour leadership contender Monica Lennon.
Speaking to the Herald on Sunday, she accused the SNP of wasting years in power, with a huge gap between its rhetoric and its record.
Lennon said she wants Scottish Labour to show it is passionate about "radical change", favouring neither independence nor the "status quo union that the Tories believe in".
She reiterated her argument that it is for the people of Scotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/) to decide if there should be another referendum, not Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
READ MORE: Monica Lennon says Scottish Labour should push for Devo Max not block Indyref2 (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19020779.monica-lennon-says-scottish-labour-push-devo-max-not-block-indyref2/)
Lennon has said pro-independence parties would have a mandate for another vote if they win a majority at the Holyrood election in May.
This puts her at odds with her leadership rival Anas Sarwar, who has made clear he will oppose a second referendum in the next parliamentary term.

If there is a referendum, Lennon said she will fight "tooth and nail" for a multi-question ballot and then campaign for a federal option.
She said: "I don't believe in independence. It worries me, the damage it would do to our economy (https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/markets_economy/) and the impact it would have on the people who are already struggling the most, the people who are living in poverty.
"But I'm also a democratic socialist and when I'm asked, 'If people in Scotland say they want a referendum and people in Scotland express that at the ballot box, what is your response?', my response is that is for the people of Scotland to decide.
"It shouldn't be up to Boris Johnson or any other Prime Minister to say no to that.
"And I think it would be wrong, it would be a disaster for Scottish Labour to hide behind Boris Johnson and take the same response as him, which is not democratic."
Lennon added: "If there is going to be a referendum, then I would fight tooth and nail for that to be a multi-question referendum.
"We shouldn't go back to the binary, divisive argument of 2014, and that's what happened when Scottish Labour just left it to the SNP and the Tories to decide what the question should be.
"This is why I don't want Scottish Labour to be on the sidelines. I want us to be proactive, I want us to have influence, and I want us to make the passionate case for change – but change in the UK, reform in the UK, and bringing more powers closer to people in Scotland."
Lennon said there is space for a grassroots campaign to make the case for "enhanced devolution" now.
Labour could play a big role in this, she said, but it could also involve trade unions and other civic groups.
The 40-year-old has served as an MSP for the Central Scotland region since 2016 and was previously a councillor and planning officer.
She recently hit the headlines after driving forward legislative change that led to Scotland becoming the first country in the world to introduce free universal access to period products.
Lennon is backed by many on the party's left but is seen as the underdog in the leadership contest.
She said she would want Sarwar to play "a big role" in her shadow cabinet if she won the battle to be the next Scottish Labour leader. The winner is due to be announced on February 27.
Lennon said her overriding mission will be to end child poverty.
She is also passionate about addressing Scotland's drug deaths scandal, which she describes as a shameful "stain" on Holyrood.
Asked why Labour has lost its relevance in Scotland in recent years, she said it's "not just a recent issue", adding: "We've been haemorrhaging votes since the start of devolution."
She added: "We've been in opposition since 2007, so we haven't won an election in the Scottish Parliament for a very long time.
"And if you look more recently, at what happened roundabout the time of 2014 and the referendum and what happened after that, the disconnect between Scottish Labour and our traditional heartlands just grew even bigger."
Lennon said the party took voters for granted in the past.
She said: "We stopped listening to people about the changes that they wanted in their lives."
She added: "We've not really changed. We haven't really modernised, and people perhaps look at Labour and see us in recent years as being a bit stuck in the past and not being able to move on, and being perhaps a bit bitter, a bit grumpy towards the SNP."
Lennon said there is a need for a Scottish Labour Party, adding: "We believe in social justice. We don't believe in independence and we don't believe in the status quo union that the Tories believe in.
"We want radical change. We want bold change in how the country is run, because the country's too unequal."
The SNP Government, Lennon argued, has been characterised by "task forces and working groups and pilot schemes, and they'll hand out little bits of money here and there, but it's not transformative".
She said: "You asked me about Labour, when I said Labour took people for granted in the past when we had the privilege of being in government.
"If you look at the SNP, they just reek of entitlement. They have been taking people for granted for a very long time.
"If you look at the gap between rhetoric and record, it's huge.
"Nicola Sturgeon, who promised to close the poverty-related attainment gap, who promised to make education (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/) her priority, who talked about giving children in Scotland the best start in life – she just hasn't delivered."
However Lennon stressed it's not good enough for Labour to just sit back and wait for the SNP to "disappoint people".
She added: "Scottish Labour's got to inspire people to want to come out and vote for Labour."
Asked about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP's biggest weaknesses, Lennon said Sturgeon "is the establishment", adding: "She's been in the parliament since 1999.
"From a young age she's been campaigning to be a politician. She's been a politician her whole adult life.
"I think she's become very comfortable as leader of her party, as First Minister.
"I can understand why some people in the SNP who desperately want a referendum feel that Nicola Sturgeon actually wants power more than she wants independence.
"But it's not for me to critique what's happening within the SNP – they clearly have their issues right now, which has become a distraction during a pandemic.
"My biggest frustration as a citizen and as an MSP is that they've wasted so many years in government, where they could have been bold, they could have used the powers of the parliament more progressively to really tackle the big issues that are holding people back."
She's about 10 years too late on the constitutional bit, what she's saying reflected my strong preference back then, 4 federal nations governing themselves with a UK parliament based in Birmingham (or somewhere centralish ) for the non devolved stuff.
Unfortunately over the years the conservative government riding roughshod over Scottish preferences, and more recently even Labour (starmer) with an apparent disregard for Scottish opinion, have driven that option to a distant 2nd place behind full independence.


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[RyeSloan]

At least Lennon seems to grasp a few basics here.

There is a lot of people that maybe feel full Indy is a risk / upheaval too far but do not identify with the ‘unionist’ tag that is immediately applied to them.

Well when I say a lot I mean maybe me and a few others I know [emoji23]

I would never consider myself a unionist but then have never really been desperate for full Indy or bought the line it’s required to change some of the fundamentals she raises or how it is used to paint it as the only way to a more equal and fairer society.

Probably born from never being a full on flag waving zealot for either side aligned to a deep distrust of any politician and their repeated mis direction on needing more power and more money to change my world for the better. I’d honestly prefer the lot of them left us alone as much as possible...an achieve more with less agenda would get my vote [emoji12]

It’s a touch late for Labour to be looking for a 3rd way as they have let the argument become so polarised but if she is looking for some political ground to occupy and to set a stall out for then she may get some success with that approach.

But more likely too little too late as clearly Indy Ref part 2 is the plan from May onwards.

[CropleyWasGod]

At least Lennon seems to grasp a few basics here.

There is a lot of people that maybe feel full Indy is a risk / upheaval too far but do not identify with the ‘unionist’ tag that is immediately applied to them.

Well when I say a lot I mean maybe me and a few others I know [emoji23]

I would never consider myself a unionist but then have never really been desperate for full Indy or bought the line it’s required to change some of the fundamentals she raises or how it is used to paint it as the only way to a more equal and fairer society.

Probably born from never being a full on flag waving zealot for either side aligned to a deep distrust of any politician and their repeated mis direction on needing more power and more money to change my world for the better. I’d honestly prefer the lot of them left us alone as much as possible...an achieve more with less agenda would get my vote [emoji12]

It’s a touch late for Labour to be looking for a 3rd way as they have let the argument become so polarised but if she is looking for some political ground to occupy and to set a stall out for then she may get some success with that approach.

But more likely too little too late as clearly Indy Ref part 2 is the plan from May onwards.

There's a lot in what you say that chimes with me.

But, if she had just started with, "for too long, the Labour party have been... entitled... taken people for granted.. etc etc", that would have been a sign for me that she understands just why they have lost Scotland, and could have been the start of the way back. She didn't take that opportunity, though, and the polarisation, as you put it (not just on the constitution, but in politics generally), remains.

[RyeSloan]

There's a lot in what you say that chimes with me.

But, if she had just started with, "for too long, the Labour party have been... entitled... taken people for granted.. etc etc", that would have been a sign for me that she understands just why they have lost Scotland, and could have been the start of the way back. She didn't take that opportunity, though, and the polarisation, as you put it (not just on the constitution, but in politics generally), remains.

Yeah she does spend a lot of time attacking the opponent that’s for sure!

But fundamentally it did come across that she understood that really Labour stands for zip in Scotland and have let themselves be squeezed from both sides.

Quite why it’s taken them sooo long to grasp that basic point I have no idea...which maybe takes us back to your point!

[Ozyhibby]

She's about 10 years too late on the constitutional bit, what she's saying reflected my strong preference back then, 4 federal nations governing themselves with a UK parliament based in Birmingham (or somewhere centralish ) for the non devolved stuff.
Unfortunately over the years the conservative government riding roughshod over Scottish preferences, and more recently even Labour (starmer) with an apparent disregard for Scottish opinion, have driven that option to a distant 2nd place behind full independence.


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Agree. I could have been sold on federalism 8 years ago but I now realise that it can’t be delivered while there is zero appetite for it in England. Independence is the only choice now.


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[Ozyhibby]

Lennon actually sounds quite sensible, so good chance they go for the other one.[emoji849]


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[StevieC]

Lennon actually sounds quite sensible, so good chance they go for the other one.[emoji849]

Hopefully.

The “other one” is an accident waiting to happen, and stuck in front of a live camera is likely to make enough mistakes to have even the most ardent Labour supporter questioning their vote.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1363414744829419521?s=21

Opposition?


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[Hibbyradge]

Hopefully.

The “other one” is an accident waiting to happen, and stuck in front of a live camera is likely to make enough mistakes to have even the most ardent Labour supporter questioning their vote.

Regardless of who Labour have fronting them in Scotland, they're not a threat to the SNP. In fact, aren't the Tories more likely to be second? :dunno:

If Lennon gets the gig, Scottish Labour, whilst still pro-Union, will not be opposing the calls for a referendum which has to be a desirable situation.

Or am I missing something?

[CloudSquall]

The problem with Devo Max is it falls at the first hurdle, England simply does not want it.


I also think due to the past few years Scotland has become too polarized for a third option to gain significant traction.


The independence movement won't simply go away with Devo Max either, they will keep pushing until independence is gained, Devo Max won't stop them.

[CloudSquall]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1363414744829419521?s=21

Opposition?


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:greengrin

https://twitter.com/Oldfirmfacts1/status/1363420713688924161

[Ozyhibby]

The problem with Devo Max is it falls at the first hurdle, England simply does not want it.


I also think due to the past few years Scotland has become too polarized for a third option to gain significant traction.


The independence movement won't simply go away with Devo Max either, they will keep pushing until independence is gained, Devo Max won't stop them.

The last chance for Devi Max was 2015. It was dead after that and won’t be coming back. It’s the status quo or independence now.


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[Pretty Boy]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1363414744829419521?s=21

Opposition?


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I just called him a sap on another thread. I think that's pretty accurate. The lack of even a pretence at opposition is frightening.

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1363414744829419521?s=21

Opposition?


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Incredible. At least this new Labour policy means there Sturgeon won't get any pressure off them if the inquiries go badly for her.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Starmer In Crisis - And He’s Less Popular Than Hancock (rachaelswindon.blogspot.com) (https://rachaelswindon.blogspot.com/2021/02/starmer-in-crisis-and-hes-less-popular.html?spref=tw&fbclid=IwAR22JS1YOIqcMsaeDlNeB0sJgBhPcxnDZgGX4Ejj7 BiiJdq0k5gS5EFY5dM)

i thought he was the wrong choice as soon as he got the gig, he's a gift to the nasty party :agree:

[Kato]

No future for any Labour Party if that's the calibre of leader.

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[hibsbollah]

Regardless of who Labour have fronting them in Scotland, they're not a threat to the SNP. In fact, aren't the Tories more likely to be second? :dunno:

If Lennon gets the gig, Scottish Labour, whilst still pro-Union, will not be opposing the calls for a referendum which has to be a desirable situation.

Or am I missing something?

No, that’s absolutely right. She’s not opposing the union, because that would put her at odds with party policy, but she’s clearly setting herself up as someone who is thinking about a post independence Labour Party.

[hibsbollah]

There's a lot in what you say that chimes with me.

But, if she had just started with, "for too long, the Labour party have been... entitled... taken people for granted.. etc etc", that would have been a sign for me that she understands just why they have lost Scotland, and could have been the start of the way back. She didn't take that opportunity, though, and the polarisation, as you put it (not just on the constitution, but in politics generally), remains.

But she DID say that, further down the piece :dunno: it’s a clear statement that Labour took votes for granted and were stuck in the past. I think it’s hard to argue with any of what she says.

[CropleyWasGod]

But she DID say that, further down the piece :dunno: it’s a clear statement that Labour took votes for granted and were stuck in the past. I think it’s hard to argue with any of what she says.

Fair do's. Tbh, I read the opening couple of paragraphs, and my eyes glazed over in a "here we go again" mood, and missed that bit.

If she's aware of that, it's a start.

[Pretty Boy]

Lennon is saying what I wanted and needed to hear 6 or 7 years ago. It's sensible but it's years too late.

The days of devo max, federalism etc etc being an option are gone. Nothing gets resolved until we have another referendum and even then neither side is going to go away quietly after the result. There was a huge middle ground to be won as the independence argument became more prominent, that still exists but it's far smaller than it was and certainly not big enough to make a huge difference.

I say that as someone who was very much middle ground, someone who doesn't particularly like the SNP and someone who is a displaced Labour voter. I wouldn't vote for what she is proposing because it's futile.

[weecounty hibby]

What folk seen to forget about devo max or federalism is that England need to agree to it and there is no appetite for it in England at all. It only ever becomes a thing when independence is looking interesting in Scotland. Why is it never mentioned at any other time? Because England don't want it

[SHODAN]

Labour's new strategy appears to just be the Tories under Cameron, whilst taking the youth vote for granted. I mind what happened when they did this before up here...

[lucky]

A federal U.K. probably has a chance of growing in popularity. The different Covid rules and how the 4 governments have handled the pandemic has given peopl an opportunity to see how we can be different but still pull resources. But the real difficulty would be getting by in England, the regions North of London seem to want more power. But I doubt the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland would accept having the same powers as regions of England.

[Just Alf]

A federal U.K. probably has a chance of growing in popularity. The different Covid rules and how the 4 governments have handled the pandemic has given peopl an opportunity to see how we can be different but still pull resources. But the real difficulty would be getting by in England, the regions North of London seem to want more power. But I doubt the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland would accept having the same powers as regions of England.At the risk of going off track, its why I think a Federal government based away from Westminster would be the best option, the conservative government could introduce a new structure almost regardless of what 'England' thinks, the man in the street would still be governed as usual from Westminster so wouldn't see a major difference, internal devolution would/could come later?

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[Ozyhibby]

A federal U.K. probably has a chance of growing in popularity. The different Covid rules and how the 4 governments have handled the pandemic has given peopl an opportunity to see how we can be different but still pull resources. But the real difficulty would be getting by in England, the regions North of London seem to want more power. But I doubt the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland would accept having the same powers as regions of England.


At the risk of going off track, its why I think a Federal government based away from Westminster would be the best option, the conservative government could introduce a new structure almost regardless of what 'England' thinks, the man in the street would still be governed as usual from Westminster so would see a major difference, internal devolution would/could come later?

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Fantasy stuff. There is zero chance of any of that happening. People in England have zero interest in changing from the current system, why would they, it’s perfect for them. They have the numbers to be always able to impose whichever govt they choose on the other nations. Why on earth would they ever change?


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[Keith_M]

Let's be honest, the proposal for a Federal UK is completely flawed, for the reasons that other posters have already stated. The only possible reason this would be included on any future referendum in Scotland would be to dilute the vote for Independence.

I don't believe for a minute that Labour have any real desire for a federal UK and I've yet to hear any proposals from them about how they plan to overcome the biggest hurdles to Federalism.

Lennon stating that she wants to add a Federal UK option is just her attempt to be 'on message' with the Labour hierarchy.

[Ozyhibby]

Let's be honest, the proposal for a Federal UK is completely flawed, for the reasons that other posters have already stated. The only possible reason this would be included on any future referendum in Scotland would be to dilute the vote for Independence.

I don't believe for a minute that Labour have any real desire for a federal UK and I've yet to hear any proposals from them about how they plan to overcome the biggest hurdles to Federalism.

Lennon stating that she wants to add a Federal UK option is just her attempt to be 'on message' with the Labour hierarchy.

Labour will never even put a firm proposal forward because it would lose them votes in England. So talking about it in Scotland is just downright dishonest. Gordon Brown and the rest of them know this but what else can they do? They know the status quo doesn’t work for Scotland. They have admitted it already. Their solution though is something they know can never work. They are treating Scottish voters like fools. And they wonder why they are doing so badly?


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[Just Alf]

Fantasy stuff. There is zero chance of any of that happening. People in England have zero interest in changing from the current system, why would they, it’s perfect for them. They have the numbers to be always able to impose whichever govt they choose on the other nations. Why on earth would they ever change?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOh I know, all I'm trying to say is that if the UK government of the day wanted to use Fedralisim as a tool to avoid Scottish independence then the English public wouldn't care one way or another as they'd still be governed by Westminster regardless.

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[Jack]

I don't really agree that a federal UK is a non stater because the English don't want it. Only Scotland gets to vote in indyref2.

Even if by chance Scotland voted for it Westminster could just ignore the result, death by decades of committees, but importantly for them Scottish independence would be averted.

[lord bunberry]

Oh I know, all I'm trying to say is that if the UK government of the day wanted to use Fedralisim as a tool to avoid Scottish independence then the English public wouldn't care one way or another as they'd still be governed by Westminster regardless.

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They’d care a lot if one of the other home nations vetoed a big policy, which is exactly what could happen in a federal system. There would be an outcry in England that they were being dictated to by the other nations. Imagine it was a decision to go to war.

[Smartie]

But she DID say that, further down the piece :dunno: it’s a clear statement that Labour took votes for granted and were stuck in the past. I think it’s hard to argue with any of what she says.

The headline did her a bit of an injustice, focussing on one point she made with a wee bit of hyperbole.

It was a decent article and she made many good points. I think many people would probably have agreed with most of her points either fairly recently or now, only to have been pushed to more extreme positions by the general dialogue over the past few years.

She has me listening anyway.

[Keith_M]

OK, so let's say the ballot paper has three options on it, and the votes go

Independence -33%
Federal UK - 34%
No Change - 33%.

Do we then say that Scotland chose the Federal option, on just over one third of the vote?


:dunno:

[weecounty hibby]

OK, so let's say the ballot paper has three options on it, and the votes go

Independence -33%
Federal UK - 34%
No Change - 33%.

Do we then say that Scotland chose the Federal option, on just over one third of the vote?


:dunno:
Nope, what will happen there is that they will say that as there was no clear winner the staus quo remains. That is 100% the strategy of why they unionists want federalism discussed

[SHODAN]

OK, so let's say the ballot paper has three options on it, and the votes go

Independence -33%
Federal UK - 34%
No Change - 33%.

Do we then say that Scotland chose the Federal option, on just over one third of the vote?


:dunno:

It'll be an AV situation most likely - i.e. rank in order of preference, with the second choice of the least popular option used as votes for the remaining two.

My prediction is that it'll just descend into a campaign between the two extremes as per usual (Yes vs hard No), with Labour and their 5 supporters being the only advocates for Federal and being utterly insignificant.

No one will vote for a federal UK unless there's a cast-iron guarantee from the British government (i.e. by law so they can't get out of it, and a binding referendum in the rest of the country), which will never, EVER happen.

[lapsedhibee]

No one will vote for a federal UK unless there's a cast-iron guarantee from the British government (i.e. by law so they can't get out of it, and a binding referendum in the rest of the country), which will never, EVER happen.

Current UKGov have shown that they're quite happy to break law if it suits, and with their huge majority and supine MPs they can change it as and when they like anyway.

[weecounty hibby]

Current UKGov have shown that they're quite happy to break law if it suits, and with their huge majority and supine MPs they can change it as and when they like anyway.

Let's not forget also the supine opposition.

[Keith_M]

Let's not forget also the supine opposition.


Finally, we're back to the actual topic of this thread...

:wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

crowdfunder to help poor sir keir :greengrin

Help buy a spine for Keir Starmer - a Charities crowdfunding project in Aberarth by Huw Evans (crowdfunder.co.uk) (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/spineless-starmer?fbclid=IwAR3CephSF_Q8D9n1rO6Fs0Ivu1-ZSj2FGlA9Td4kq9i_PFUiMS_elKGZl8I)

[CloudSquall]

Could be an outlier but Labour down to 33% in the latest poll.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1364914705542881280

[JeMeSouviens]

Could be an outlier but Labour down to 33% in the latest poll.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1364914705542881280

15% in the latest Holyrood poll.

[hibsbollah]

Could be an outlier but Labour down to 33% in the latest poll.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1364914705542881280

There’s been no improvement in 12 months now. Very disappointing for an opposition in midterm against a government of incompetents. A very similar voting intention pattern to Labour under Corbyn between 2017-19, the difference is Corbyn occasionally had a poll lead and was still pilloried by the press.

[Ryan91]

As per the BBC, Anas Sarwar has been elected the new leader of the Scottish Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56221768

[Keith_M]

As per the BBC, Anas Sarwar has been elected the new leader of the Scottish Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56221768


Always the most likely candidate.

Is it too much to hope that he does a decent job of asking difficult questions in Holyrood, taking the SG to task, and not just the usual political point scoring that we usually see?

[bawheid]

***BANG***

[The sound of Scottish Labour shooting themselves in the foot yet again.]

[Ozyhibby]

More than three hours since the announcement and only three posts about a new leader of the Labour Party in Scotland? Shows how irrelevant they have become. I think it won’t matter what he says because nobody is listening to them anymore.


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[Moulin Yarns]

More than three hours since the announcement and only three posts about a new leader of the Labour Party in Scotland? Shows how irrelevant they have become. I think it won’t matter what he says because nobody is listening to them anymore.


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I love the BBC talk about the first Asian leader of a major political party 🤣

[Santa Cruz]

I love the BBC talk about the first Asian leader of a major political party 🤣

Not just the BBC. The Justice Sec tweeted his congratulations and highlighted the same point. RT from the FM too.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not just the BBC. The Justice Sec tweeted his congratulations and highlighted the same point. RT from the FM too.

'major political party'? A distant third in holyrood.

[ronaldo7]

Has Sarah Smith congratulated Monica Lennon for her win yet?

[Santa Cruz]

'major political party'? A distant third in holyrood.

Yet I hear so many SNP voters say if they get Indy, they would be more than happy to vote for the distant third party in future elections. Can't be that bad eh.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yet I hear so many SNP voters say if they get Indy, they would be more than happy to vote for the distant third party in future elections. Can't be that bad eh.

SNP is a means to an end for many Labour supporters. They see independence as a positive, unlike the Scottish bit of the Labour Party. Once delivered they can revert to type, voting for the monkey with the red rosette.

[hibsbollah]

As per the BBC, Anas Sarwar has been elected the new leader of the Scottish Labour Party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56221768

I voted for Monica Lennon so I’m disappointed. 57-43% is substantially closer than I expected and although it’s a clear majority it’s also credit to her for running a refreshing campaign where a new direction for Scottish Labour was at least an option on a ballot paper.

[CloudSquall]

Have we had the mandatory "The SNP are shaking in their boots" Labour communication after every new leader announcement yet? :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Given the deletion above I think some tidying up may be needed on the Scottish Independence thread too... :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I voted for Monica Lennon so I’m disappointed. 57-43% is substantially closer than I expected and although it’s a clear majority it’s also credit to her for running a refreshing campaign where a new direction for Scottish Labour was at least an option on a ballot paper.

There was a bit of smearing going on about Sarwar, which was a shame, but I'm not sure how much that affected things.

[Bostonhibby]

SNP is a means to an end for many Labour supporters. They see independence as a positive, unlike the Scottish bit of the Labour Party. Once delivered they can revert to type, voting for the monkey with the red rosette.Red rosette? Union Jack suit surely.

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[hibsbollah]

There was a bit of smearing going on about Sarwar, which was a shame, but I'm not sure how much that affected things.


What sort of smearing? I missed that.

[Keith_M]

I love the BBC talk about the first Asian leader of a major political party 🤣


That's what The Herald went with as well.

I think Keir Starmer might have something to say about that.

[CropleyWasGod]

What sort of smearing? I missed that.

Stuff from the past...long past...which has probably been said before.

The DR had a couple of goes at him in recent weeks, which you can find easily enough. I'd rather not stick it in here, since clearly it wasn't a big issue for those, like you, who have a direct interest.

[Moulin Yarns]

Given the deletion above I think some tidying up may be needed on the Scottish Independence thread too... :wink:

Are you saying that you want some 'whataboutery'?

[Moulin Yarns]

Red rosette? Union Jack suit surely.

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It's an old Fife saying about miners voting for a monkey because it's wearing a red rosette.

[Bostonhibby]

It's an old Fife saying about miners voting for a monkey because it's wearing a red rosette.[emoji106]

I knew, but bringing it right up to date a monkey in a union Jack suit seems to be popular in one Edinburgh constituency too.[emoji6]

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[BroxburnHibee]

Given the deletion above I think some tidying up may be needed on the Scottish Independence thread too... :wink:

Hard as it may be to believe we don't read every single post on the forums. That's why we rely on the 'report post' function when we miss things. Please feel free to point out any examples. :wink:

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/27/johnsons-poll-lead-over-labour-boosted-by-covid-vaccine-rollout

Tories 7 points ahead of Labour. I wonder if we'll see the same scrutiny of Starmer that Corbyn received?

If he can't stay ahead of them now then he has no chance of winning an election.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/27/johnsons-poll-lead-over-labour-boosted-by-covid-vaccine-rollout

Tories 7 points ahead of Labour. I wonder if we'll see the same scrutiny of Starmer that Corbyn received?

If he can't stay ahead of them now then he has no chance of winning an election.

When Corbyn had a 8 point lead (December 2017), Tony Blair rocked up and said Labour 'should be 20 points ahead'. To widespread media agreement. Because Theresa Mays Tories were supposedly historically in disarray. Usually, opinion polling only became 'news' when Labour was doing worse. When the polls had the parties neck and neck or Labour had a lead, it never seemed to be newsworthy.

So I would say No.

[Ozyhibby]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


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[Keith_M]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.



Despite the fact that every survey in the last year or so has had the potential Yes vote at a minimum of 50%.

So what he said is actually just a bare faced lie.

[ronaldo7]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


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If I didn't know who it was, it'd be straight out of the Tory playbook.

[BroxburnHibee]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They just don't get it. Although I suspect if Scottish Labour were a separate entity their policy would be a lot different.

[lord bunberry]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


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Yet another Labour leader who thinks he speaks for the country, the tories do it all the time as well. I hate it when a politician starts talking about what the country does or doesn’t want.

[Hiber-nation]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


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It's as if he knows he can't change a thing and he's merely happy to go down in history as a the first Asian leader of a political party in the UK. The fact that he'll fail doesn't seem to be important. The Salmond enquiry ending badly for NS is the only thing they have to cling on to.

[SHODAN]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Labour could end up fourth behind the Greens with Sarwar as leader. The same guff that only about ten people in the country actually resonate with; everyone else votes SNP or Tory now.

[Bostonhibby]

I listened to Sarwar on radio Scotland this morning and he sounded like every other Labour leader of the last ten years. Telling us that people in Scotland are not really interested in a referendum and are more concerned with health, education etc. He might wish that were so but it’s just not true. If his strategy is just to ignore the number 1 issue in Scottish politics then he is doomed to a failure as big as Leonard’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As an observer of what is happening in Scotland and a labour voter generally, I find Sarwar's view extraordinary and maybe even consistent with the delusion that's got Labour in Scotland to where it is today as far as support for labour is concerned.

Most of my friends and family in Scotland have either switched completely to Yes next time around or their Yes position has hardened.

It's down to a combination of despair with Labour and a very strong desire to break away from Bozo and the Nasty parties approach then start afresh rather than any overwhelming support for SNP, but frankly SNP shouldn't have to do a lot to succeed next time around other than get the referendum to happen.



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[G B Young]

Split up dual role of top law officer, says Sarwar - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56229036)

Agree with his comments re Lord Advocate's role.

Sturgeon tweeted him a warm welcome but may not be so fond of his comments about her.

[heretoday]

Sarwar speaks very well. He's a darn sight brighter than his predecessor anyway.

[G B Young]

Sarwar speaks very well. He's a darn sight brighter than his predecessor anyway.

Met him once at a work event in Glasgow a good few years ago. I was impressed by him.

[greenlex]

As an observer of what is happening in Scotland and a labour voter generally, I find Sarwar's view extraordinary and maybe even consistent with the delusion that's got Labour in Scotland to where it is today as far as support for labour is concerned.

Most of my friends and family in Scotland have either switched completely to Yes next time around or their Yes position has hardened.

It's down to a combination of despair with Labour and a very strong desire to break away from Bozo and the Nasty parties approach then start afresh rather than any overwhelming support for SNP, but frankly SNP shouldn't have to do a lot to succeed next time around other than get the referendum to happen.



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I could be a friend of yours if not your brother. :aok: No love for the SNP but independence must happen.

[Hibbyradge]

I could be a friend of yours if not your brother. :aok: No love for the SNP but independence must happen.

We'd be triplets if it wasn't for "parties" instead of "party's".

[Bostonhibby]

We'd be triplets if it wasn't for "parties" instead of "party's".[emoji16]

Party's it is.

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[Hibbyradge]

[emoji16]

Party's it is.

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Bruvver...🤗

[allmodcons]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/27/johnsons-poll-lead-over-labour-boosted-by-covid-vaccine-rollout

Tories 7 points ahead of Labour. I wonder if we'll see the same scrutiny of Starmer that Corbyn received?

If he can't stay ahead of them now then he has no chance of winning an election.

There is no chance of Starmer getting anything like the same scrutiny as Corbyn. Our press are for the most part a complete ****ing joke.

[Bostonhibby]

Bruvver...[emoji847]Mind you, I have been to a few nasty parties but this doesn't seem to be that sort of thread.........

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[Hibbyradge]

Mind you, I have been to a few nasty parties but this doesn't seem to be that sort of thread.........

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PM forum...

[Hibbyradge]

There is no chance of Starmer getting anything like the same scrutiny as Corbyn.

That's a good thing, right?

[Moulin Yarns]

BREAKING: Labour’s deputy leader Angela Rayner claimed £249 personalised Apple AirPods on expenses

Via @TheSun https://t.co/KBOxWK4I2h

Pigs in troughs comes to mind.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210301/ba2f7001117769a7479367fd1e84eb3b.jpg

Sarwar clearly going full Tory light.


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[hibsbollah]

BREAKING: Labour’s deputy leader Angela Rayner claimed £249 personalised Apple AirPods on expenses

Via @TheSun https://t.co/KBOxWK4I2h

Pigs in troughs comes to mind.

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.

[lord bunberry]

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.
Given the number of interviews and meetings done over zoom, I’d say it’s essential.

[lapsedhibee]

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.

Is that price hike Brexit-related? They used to be under £1000.

[DaveF]

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.

Must admit I'm struggling to see the controversy here.

More disappointed that the crap paper sought comment from 2 out of the 3 MPs in that story with the one being omitted doing the good work for charity.

[hibsbollah]

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.

They’re only £30 million if they come with a test n trace contract :agree:

[Mon Dieu4]

I haven’t seen the coverage but I would have thought making sure politicians have decent audio is what expenses is actually for :dunno:

It could have been B&O. It also wasn’t £30 million.

She could have got a duck pond that's what I'm angry about

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that price hike Brexit-related? They used to be under £1000.

Is Matt Hancock mates with Bang or Olufsen?

[Bostonhibby]

BREAKING: Labour’s deputy leader Angela Rayner claimed £249 personalised Apple AirPods on expenses

Via @TheSun https://t.co/KBOxWK4I2h

Pigs in troughs comes to mind.Should've got her local pub landlord to set up a company to supply her one for £30m or so..

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[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210301/ba2f7001117769a7479367fd1e84eb3b.jpg

Sarwar clearly going full Tory light.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are these they ones that are in coalition with the Tories on that council?

[Ozyhibby]

Are these they ones that are in coalition with the Tories on that council?

Yes


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[G B Young]

Has Scottish Labour just elected the man who will deny Nicola Sturgeon's SNP its precious majority?
TOM HARRIS

Anas Sarwar has the one quality that all successful leaders possess: he annoys exactly the right people.
The new Scottish Labour leader (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/02/27/anas-sarwar-pledges-rebuild-scottish-labour-elected-new-party/) annoys those on the far Left of his party because he was educated at a private school on Glasgow’s south side, and made the decision to send his own children there rather than to a state comprehensive. A remarkably large percentage of critics either have no children themselves and therefore don’t have to face the same kind of decision, or they game the system themselves, paying large sums of cash to move into wealthy areas where the local comp is of a higher standard than “bog”. But the latter form of hypocrisy is acceptable – even welcomed – in the modern Labour Party. Having the gall to be upfront about wanting your kids to start off at an advantage is not.
He also annoys the Left because, on paper at least, he is a millionaire, owning a large share of the cash and carry business started by his father and former MP, Mohammad Sarwar. Gratifyingly, Sarwar has made no apology for his personal wealth, nor should he.
And he annoys Scottish nationalists (as does everyone, admittedly, not described as both “Scottish” and “nationalist”). This is for two reasons. The first is because Sarwar believes Scotland is better off in the United Kingdom and indeed was one of the 40 of us who lost their jobs in the Commons as punishment for helping the No campaign to victory in the independence referendum in 2014.
The other reason he annoys the nationalists is because he is a campaigner and communicator without peer in his own party. This is infuriating to SNP members who expressed their anger and hatred of Sarwar as soon as his victory in the Scottish Labour leadership election was announced on Saturday.
Another advantage Sarwar has is that his job does not depend on success at May’s Holyrood elections, which is just as well: the only aspect of the result that is still open to conjecture is whether Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP will retain power with an overall majority or without one (as it did in 2016).
So Sarwar has won the leadership of Scotland’s third biggest party at a paradoxically benevolent time for a career-minded politician. He’s been given some leeway, a breathing space, to allow him to establish himself in voters’ minds. No one will blame him when his party makes little or no progress in May; his predecessors as leaders of Scottish and UK Labour will play that role.
Still, in managing expectations of May’s elections, Sarwar has a unique short term opportunity. With the SNP pulling itself apart (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/26/nicola-sturgeon-could-gone-weeks-alex-salmond-affair-says-scottish/) and behaving like a party that’s been in office for 14 years (which it has), there may well be some appetite for clipping its wings. And how better to accomplish that task than to turn to the SNP’s historic enemy, Scottish Labour? Sarwar will hope to attract at least some of those former Labour supporters who voted No in 2014 – and even some of those who voted Yes – and who have since supported the SNP at election time. If that support was given hesitatingly, if there are doubts in those voters’ minds as to the wisdom of giving the Nationalists a fourth term, then the new Scottish Labour leader may find he’s pushing at an open door.
Watching the undignified “he said/she said” exchange of insults and accusations between Sturgeon and former first minister Alex Salmond in the last few weeks makes the prospect of an overall majority sound to Scots more like a threat than an opportunity. And Scottish Labour, despite its lamentable trajectory in the last decade, is still the only explicitly centre-Left social democratic option on the ballot paper. Might there still be an appetite among Scots for a political message about redistribution and investment in public services? If there is, Sarwar’s in the perfect place to benefit from it.
His prospects might even be helped by the (accurate) impression that his party cannot hope to win in May. Scottish Labour, by virtue of its own disastrous fortunes, paradoxically has become a safe haven for former SNP voters who retain a vaguely Left-wing outlook. They can vote for Sarwar’s party with the confidence that it poses no real threat to the SNP’s continued reign. Even in Scotland, there is still some persuasive power behind the urge to rein in a party without removing it from office completely.
It sounds like a modest victory, but Scottish Labour has been so deprived of victories in recent years that they will gladly settle for it. And in fact, depriving Sturgeon of her precious overall majority – and the reminder that her nemesis, Salmond, is the only person to have won a majority at Holyrood must haunt her every waking hour – would be a massive event, to Labour and SNP partisans if not to the large majority of Scots.
Such a result would deprive Sturgeon of her so-called mandate to “demand” [sic] a second independence referendum; she would remain in office, more popular with the electorate than with her increasingly frustrated and disappointed members. If Sarwar can confect a strategy to that end, he will have proved himself the most successful Scottish Labour leader since the last Labour first minister, Jack McConnell.
That he would have done so without gaining even a sniff of office says a great deal about how far Labour has fallen in its former heartlands. It may be that the tide against the SNP is not, after all, turning in Scottish Labour’s favour. He would not be blamed for that. But Sarwar is a young man; he has time on his side. The timing of the SNP’s latest travails has been an entirely lucky accident for him. All he needs is for that luck to continue for just a few weeks longer.

[JeMeSouviens]

Has Scottish Labour just elected the man who will deny Nicola Sturgeon's SNP its precious majority?


Labour have elected Salmond? :confused::confused::confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Labour have elected Salmond? :confused::confused::confused:

Certainly appears like he is the unions best hope these days.[emoji23]


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[Jones28]

Keir Starmer (or SurKeir) is making a tit of himself over this payrise stuff. Surely you can give the radio a figure if you're going to go after the government all guns blazing. 5%? 10%? The same can be said for the polis, he was asked if police should be given a payrise too, and he just wouldn't say "yes the police should be given a payrise", he had to dance around like he was on hot coals saying "all public sector workers should get a pay rise". Just aswer the ****ing question you twat, LabourBot5000.

[G B Young]

Keir Starmer (or SurKeir) is making a tit of himself over this payrise stuff. Surely you can give the radio a figure if you're going to go after the government all guns blazing. 5%? 10%? The same can be said for the polis, he was asked if police should be given a payrise too, and he just wouldn't say "yes the police should be given a payrise", he had to dance around like he was on hot coals saying "all public sector workers should get a pay rise". Just aswer the ****ing question you twat, LabourBot5000.

Starmer's problem is he has nothing to try and get his teeth into (or 'hold the government account over') while Covid remains the biggest show in town. As the vaccine rollout continues to speed along he's hardly going to oppose something that has brought with it so much positivity for the country. Even the Budget was pretty much bereft of any obvious target points because it largely mirrored what a Labour government would have come up with in the current unprecedented climate. The only other significant story doing the political rounds right now is the Salmond v Sturgeon saga and there's not much for Starmer to get involved with there apart from presumably encouraging Sarwar to stick it to the SNP in any way possible.

I also find it puzzling that Starmer has gone with the slogan 'Secure. Protect. Rebuild' which, as has been pointed out, just seems like a duller, less catchy version of the government's 'Build Back Better'.

[weecounty hibby]

Starmer's problem is he has nothing to try and get his teeth into (or 'hold the government account over') while Covid remains the biggest show in town. As the vaccine rollout continues to speed along he's hardly going to oppose something that has brought with it so much positivity for the country. Even the Budget was pretty much bereft of any obvious target points because it largely mirrored what a Labour government would have come up with in the current unprecedented climate. The only other significant story doing the political rounds right now is the Salmond v Sturgeon saga and there's not much for Starmer to get involved with there apart from presumably encouraging Sarwar to stick it to the SNP in any way possible.

I also find it puzzling that Starmer has gone with the slogan 'Secure. Protect. Rebuild' which, as has been pointed out, just seems like a duller, less catchy version of the government's 'Build Back Better'.
If you don't see things to hold this utterly corrupt government to account for them you are not paying attention or are deliberately ignoring what's going on. From the billions wasted on track and trace to the billions given to Tory donors, relatives and friends, to the lack of border control and 120000 deaths, to the pay freeze, to the brexit shambles to the breaking of international law and treaties. Duck me I didn't even have to think about that list.

[DaveF]

If you don't see things to hold this utterly corrupt government to account for them you are not paying attention or are deliberately ignoring what's going on.

I think it's either of the above as GBY has an aversion to the Tories thread 🙂

[greenlex]

Starmer's problem is he has nothing to try and get his teeth into (or 'hold the government account over') while Covid remains the biggest show in town. As the vaccine rollout continues to speed along he's hardly going to oppose something that has brought with it so much positivity for the country. Even the Budget was pretty much bereft of any obvious target points because it largely mirrored what a Labour government would have come up with in the current unprecedented climate. The only other significant story doing the political rounds right now is the Salmond v Sturgeon saga and there's not much for Starmer to get involved with there apart from presumably encouraging Sarwar to stick it to the SNP in any way possible.

I also find it puzzling that Starmer has gone with the slogan 'Secure. Protect. Rebuild' which, as has been pointed out, just seems like a duller, less catchy version of the government's 'Build Back Better'.
If anyone can’t find anything to hold the Tories to account then they must be plain stupid, incapable or called Rip Van Winkle.

[The Harp Awakes]

Has Scottish Labour just elected the man who will deny Nicola Sturgeon's SNP its precious majority?
TOM HARRIS

Anas Sarwar has the one quality that all successful leaders possess: he annoys exactly the right people.
The new Scottish Labour leader (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/02/27/anas-sarwar-pledges-rebuild-scottish-labour-elected-new-party/) annoys those on the far Left of his party because he was educated at a private school on Glasgow’s south side, and made the decision to send his own children there rather than to a state comprehensive. A remarkably large percentage of critics either have no children themselves and therefore don’t have to face the same kind of decision, or they game the system themselves, paying large sums of cash to move into wealthy areas where the local comp is of a higher standard than “bog”. But the latter form of hypocrisy is acceptable – even welcomed – in the modern Labour Party. Having the gall to be upfront about wanting your kids to start off at an advantage is not.
He also annoys the Left because, on paper at least, he is a millionaire, owning a large share of the cash and carry business started by his father and former MP, Mohammad Sarwar. Gratifyingly, Sarwar has made no apology for his personal wealth, nor should he.
And he annoys Scottish nationalists (as does everyone, admittedly, not described as both “Scottish” and “nationalist”). This is for two reasons. The first is because Sarwar believes Scotland is better off in the United Kingdom and indeed was one of the 40 of us who lost their jobs in the Commons as punishment for helping the No campaign to victory in the independence referendum in 2014.
The other reason he annoys the nationalists is because he is a campaigner and communicator without peer in his own party. This is infuriating to SNP members who expressed their anger and hatred of Sarwar as soon as his victory in the Scottish Labour leadership election was announced on Saturday.
Another advantage Sarwar has is that his job does not depend on success at May’s Holyrood elections, which is just as well: the only aspect of the result that is still open to conjecture is whether Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP will retain power with an overall majority or without one (as it did in 2016).
So Sarwar has won the leadership of Scotland’s third biggest party at a paradoxically benevolent time for a career-minded politician. He’s been given some leeway, a breathing space, to allow him to establish himself in voters’ minds. No one will blame him when his party makes little or no progress in May; his predecessors as leaders of Scottish and UK Labour will play that role.
Still, in managing expectations of May’s elections, Sarwar has a unique short term opportunity. With the SNP pulling itself apart (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/26/nicola-sturgeon-could-gone-weeks-alex-salmond-affair-says-scottish/) and behaving like a party that’s been in office for 14 years (which it has), there may well be some appetite for clipping its wings. And how better to accomplish that task than to turn to the SNP’s historic enemy, Scottish Labour? Sarwar will hope to attract at least some of those former Labour supporters who voted No in 2014 – and even some of those who voted Yes – and who have since supported the SNP at election time. If that support was given hesitatingly, if there are doubts in those voters’ minds as to the wisdom of giving the Nationalists a fourth term, then the new Scottish Labour leader may find he’s pushing at an open door.
Watching the undignified “he said/she said” exchange of insults and accusations between Sturgeon and former first minister Alex Salmond in the last few weeks makes the prospect of an overall majority sound to Scots more like a threat than an opportunity. And Scottish Labour, despite its lamentable trajectory in the last decade, is still the only explicitly centre-Left social democratic option on the ballot paper. Might there still be an appetite among Scots for a political message about redistribution and investment in public services? If there is, Sarwar’s in the perfect place to benefit from it.
His prospects might even be helped by the (accurate) impression that his party cannot hope to win in May. Scottish Labour, by virtue of its own disastrous fortunes, paradoxically has become a safe haven for former SNP voters who retain a vaguely Left-wing outlook. They can vote for Sarwar’s party with the confidence that it poses no real threat to the SNP’s continued reign. Even in Scotland, there is still some persuasive power behind the urge to rein in a party without removing it from office completely.
It sounds like a modest victory, but Scottish Labour has been so deprived of victories in recent years that they will gladly settle for it. And in fact, depriving Sturgeon of her precious overall majority – and the reminder that her nemesis, Salmond, is the only person to have won a majority at Holyrood must haunt her every waking hour – would be a massive event, to Labour and SNP partisans if not to the large majority of Scots.
Such a result would deprive Sturgeon of her so-called mandate to “demand” [sic] a second independence referendum; she would remain in office, more popular with the electorate than with her increasingly frustrated and disappointed members. If Sarwar can confect a strategy to that end, he will have proved himself the most successful Scottish Labour leader since the last Labour first minister, Jack McConnell.
That he would have done so without gaining even a sniff of office says a great deal about how far Labour has fallen in its former heartlands. It may be that the tide against the SNP is not, after all, turning in Scottish Labour’s favour. He would not be blamed for that. But Sarwar is a young man; he has time on his side. The timing of the SNP’s latest travails has been an entirely lucky accident for him. All he needs is for that luck to continue for just a few weeks longer.

I think the only success Sarwar will have is getting some votes from the tories; labour, unionist minded voters who have previously defected to the tories to try and keep the SNP out.

Whether you like it or not, all elections iin Scotland are going to be determined on nationalist/unionist grounds until we become independent. The only chance the labour party has in Scotland is if they adopt a pro-independence stance and that aint happening any time soon.

I actually don't think it matters a jot how good or bad the SNP perform. Yes minded folk will vote SNP regardless, as it is the route to independence.

[SHODAN]

Genuine question: could Labour, under Starmer, be in genuine danger of getting PASOK-ed and fading into irrelevance down south in addition to up here? If they continue to assume leftists will vote for them, and if the Greens continue to gain ground, there's a real chance.

[Hibbyradge]

Genuine question: could Labour, under Starmer, be in genuine danger of getting PASOK-ed and fading into irrelevance down south in addition to up here? If they continue to assume leftists will vote for them, and if the Greens continue to gain ground, there's a real chance.

That's the kind of post that should be encouraged.

Ask a "genuine" question in the first sentence. Answer it in the second. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Has Scottish Labour just elected the man who will deny Nicola Sturgeon's SNP its precious majority?

....



Simple answer...

No.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1369247953064493059

It looks like Hollie Cameron has been pumped from the Labour Holyrood list, as she says she would not be guaranteed to follow the whip. This follows her comments on Indyref2 at the week end where she said she was happy to have the referendum but was quibbling about timing.

[SHODAN]

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1369247953064493059

It looks like Hollie Cameron has been pumped from the Labour Holyrood list, as she says she would not be guaranteed to follow the whip. This follows her comments on Indyref2 at the week end where she said she was happy to have the referendum but was quibbling about timing.

The Labour right are back in control so purging dissenters is ok again.

[The Harp Awakes]

Simple answer...

No.

I agree. Scottish Labour have a mountain to climb, even to become Scotland's 2nd party above the tories, let alone challenge the SNP. Even if Sarwar was the best leader ever, which I'm not sure he is, he would have to offer the Scottish electorate something radically different to what Scottish Labour has done over the last 25 years.

So what is Sarwar going to offer which is more radical than his failed predecessors? As long as they continue to be a branch office of the UK Labour Party, the answer is more than likely nowt.

Also, if Scottish Labour and Sarawar continue to stick their heads in the sand on independence, their support will continue to be squeezed by the anti side (tories) and the pro side (SNP/greens).

So as things stand, it's difficult to see Sarwar’s leadership having any impact whatsoever.

[wookie70]

I actually don't think it matters a jot how good or bad the SNP perform. Yes minded folk will vote SNP regardless, as it is the route to independence.
I'm a fairly good example of that. I am a traditional Labour voter that vowed to not vote Labour again after about 30 seconds of Blair. I voted Green mostly as well as Socialist Parties until Corbyn came along. At that point I reverted to Labour. I am a strong Yes voter and although I am not a fan of the SNP they will now get every vote I cast until Independence unless there is another party more likely to bring about Independence. That may never happen in my lifetime but it is the main issue for me now. No EU, no point voting in Westminster elections and Westminster has so much say in Scotland Governing itself that vote has little worth. Therefore my vote will only be aimed at trying to achieve Independence. Until Independence the SNP can run down Princes Street and batter citizens to death with haggis, shortbread and bagpipes and I will still vote for them, to paraphrase that arse Trump. Nothing else politically comes close to mattering as much to me now.

[Ozyhibby]

Sarwar has been very quiet for someone who waited a long time to get the top job and only has 8 weeks till Election Day? I would have thought he would have taken advantage more of any free publicity a new leader gets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

Sarwar has been very quiet for someone who waited a long time to get the top job and only has 8 weeks till Election Day? I would have thought he would have taken advantage more of any free publicity a new leader gets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The more he speaks the less votes he will get. Silence is probably his best option.

[degenerated]

Sarwar has been very quiet for someone who waited a long time to get the top job and only has 8 weeks till Election Day? I would have thought he would have taken advantage more of any free publicity a new leader gets?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe did a zoom meeting/q & a for scottish labour members and 16 people logged in [emoji16]

[ronaldo7]

He did a zoom meeting/q & a for scottish labour members and 16 people logged in [emoji16]

It's getting close to phone box territory. :greengrin

Any idea if Hollie Cameron has been reinstated yet?

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_Zx0uumY3Yl9PoULy3CRt9TjaBlLKs2Y_Da6Lr1y42w/viewform?edit_requested=true

[The Harp Awakes]

I'm a fairly good example of that. I am a traditional Labour voter that vowed to not vote Labour again after about 30 seconds of Blair. I voted Green mostly as well as Socialist Parties until Corbyn came along. At that point I reverted to Labour. I am a strong Yes voter and although I am not a fan of the SNP they will now get every vote I cast until Independence unless there is another party more likely to bring about Independence. That may never happen in my lifetime but it is the main issue for me now. No EU, no point voting in Westminster elections and Westminster has so much say in Scotland Governing itself that vote has little worth. Therefore my vote will only be aimed at trying to achieve Independence. Until Independence the SNP can run down Princes Street and batter citizens to death with haggis, shortbread and bagpipes and I will still vote for them, to paraphrase that arse Trump. Nothing else politically comes close to mattering as much to me now.

Pretty much the same here. My mother's side of the family were Liverpool Irish, many employed in the dockyards and very active in the union and Labour movement on Merseyside. My aunt was a Labour councillor in Birkenhead. My dad's side were Edinburgh working class too and as a result, the word 'Tory' was as bad as a swear word in my house when I was a kid. Up until the 1990s my entire family, including myself were staunch Labour voters without exception. That began to change during the Blair years, mainly due to the Iraq war.

In the 2014 referendum the 13 members of my close family eligible to vote, all voted Yes, and we have voted SNP in every election since. I'm sure we all still have Labour values at heart, but independence is the key issue for us. I'm pretty sure many SNP voters in the central belt and beyond have followed a similar transition from Labour. Based on our experience, unless Scottish Labour change their stance on indyref2/independence, I do not think there is any way back for them.

[Just Alf]

Pretty much the same here. My mother's side of the family were Liverpool Irish, many employed in the dockyards and very active in the union and Labour movement on Merseyside. My aunt was a Labour councillor in Birkenhead. My dad's side were Edinburgh working class too and as a result, the word 'Tory' was as bad as a swear word in my house when I was a kid. Up until the 1990s my entire family, including myself were staunch Labour voters without exception. That began to change during the Blair years, mainly due to the Iraq war.

In the 2014 referendum the 13 members of my close family eligible to vote, all voted Yes, and we have voted SNP in every election since. I'm sure we all still have Labour values at heart, but independence is the key issue for us. I'm pretty sure many SNP voters in the central belt and beyond have followed a similar transition from Labour. Based on our experience, unless Scottish Labour change their stance on indyref2/independence, I do not think there is any way back for them.Good post, and I could almost have written it word for word! Swap Liverpool for mussleburgh fishermen tho :greengrin



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[wookie70]

Pretty much the same here. My mother's side of the family were Liverpool Irish, many employed in the dockyards and very active in the union and Labour movement on Merseyside. My aunt was a Labour councillor in Birkenhead. My dad's side were Edinburgh working class too and as a result, the word 'Tory' was as bad as a swear word in my house when I was a kid. Up until the 1990s my entire family, including myself were staunch Labour voters without exception. That began to change during the Blair years, mainly due to the Iraq war.

In the 2014 referendum the 13 members of my close family eligible to vote, all voted Yes, and we have voted SNP in every election since. I'm sure we all still have Labour values at heart, but independence is the key issue for us. I'm pretty sure many SNP voters in the central belt and beyond have followed a similar transition from Labour. Based on our experience, unless Scottish Labour change their stance on indyref2/independence, I do not think there is any way back for them.

Yep, I am a Union Rep and it isn't an unusual path to the SNP. Some are holding on to voting Labour but they are struggling with it and I think that could change come May. Starmer is surely the last straw for any Labour supporter who is left of centre. He is rank rotten and not even trying to lay a glove on the worst PM in history.

Independence is bizarrely the best chance for Labour in Scotland. I think a Labour Party founded on the type of values Corbyn represented would walk an election after Scotland becomes Independent. The SNP are far too close to centre for most YES voters from what I gather. They are simply a means to an end and that is why the Salmond/Sturgeon guff won't hurt the yes vote or SNP too much if at all.

[Jones28]

SurKeir just asked by Theo Usherwood on LBC if he would join NHS workers on strike twice, both times he refused to answer the question. He's a ****ing Torie with red tie.

[Kato]

SurKeir just asked by Theo Usherwood on LBC if he would join NHS workers on strike twice, both times he refused to answer the question. He's a ****ing Torie with red tie.What has got to lose by saying "yes"?

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[hibsbollah]

SurKeir just asked by Theo Usherwood on LBC if he would join NHS workers on strike twice, both times he refused to answer the question. He's a ****ing Torie with red tie.

It’s a big day for him, he and Angela Rayner doing a media blitz. Yep, didn’t really answer the question on striking nurses, or on Drakefords claim that ‘the union as it is is over’, or the Harry Meghan thing. Very much a no mistakes, pass it sideways without trying any risky passes, kind of start. Sarwars just done a similar Guardian interview I just listened to, Very serious and safety first.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a big day for him, he and Angela Rayner doing a media blitz. Yep, didn’t really answer the question on striking nurses, or on Drakefords claim that ‘the union as it is is over’, or the Harry Meghan thing. Very much a no mistakes, pass it sideways without trying any risky passes, kind of start. Sarwars just done a similar Guardian interview I just listened to, Very serious and safety first.

I suppose you could say Starmer has 4 years and is maybe playing a long game but Sarwar has 56 days or his leadership will be tainted with winning less seats than they had under Leonard. He may never recover from that.


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[CloudSquall]

If this is what "being electable" is it's one hell of a game of 4D chess Starmer is playing :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

If this is what "being electable" is it's one hell of a game of 4D chess Starmer is playing :greengrin

Bollah has nailed it above.

As frustrating as it might be, there's no point giving the Tories any ammunition that they can use further down the line.

What's to be gained from answering hypothetical questions? They're not going to win over anyone who might not vote Labour because they say they might go on strike at some unknown point in the future.

The folk who criticise the lack of answer are looking for reasons to criticise and won't be won over regardless.

The rest of the electorate don't care so don't make any mistakes that allow the Tories to make them care.

The Daily Mail headline isn't going to say "XY or Z ducks a question". It might say "Corbyn's marxist legacy lives on" or other such pish if they're given the opportunity.

Summat like that anyway.

[wookie70]

Bollah has nailed it above.

As frustrating as it might be, there's no point giving the Tories any ammunition that they can use further down the line.

What's to be gained from answering hypothetical questions? They're not going to win over anyone who might not vote Labour because they say they might go on strike at some unknown point in the future.

The folk who criticise the lack of answer are looking for reasons to criticise and won't be won over regardless.

The rest of the electorate don't care so don't make any mistakes that allow the Tories to make them care.

The Daily Mail headline isn't going to say "XY or Z ducks a question". It might say "Corbyn's marxist legacy lives on" or other such pish if they're given the opportunity.

Summat like that anyway.

Your probably right but what a depressing thought. It is essentially saying the UK electorate is thick as mince. To be honest I think they are given a few lines on the front page of a red top that is transparently a lie is usually enough to win or lose an election. Buses also work well as a medium for lies to be treated as truth by an electorate that seems to struggle with truth

[Jones28]

Bollah has nailed it above.

As frustrating as it might be, there's no point giving the Tories any ammunition that they can use further down the line.

What's to be gained from answering hypothetical questions? They're not going to win over anyone who might not vote Labour because they say they might go on strike at some unknown point in the future.

The folk who criticise the lack of answer are looking for reasons to criticise and won't be won over regardless.

The rest of the electorate don't care so don't make any mistakes that allow the Tories to make them care.

The Daily Mail headline isn't going to say "XY or Z ducks a question". It might say "Corbyn's marxist legacy lives on" or other such pish if they're given the opportunity.

Summat like that anyway.

I don't actually dislike Starmer, I just think if he were to provide a clear answer he would actually silence some critics rather than doing what he's done to me and frustrate me by giving a politicians (or to go with HB's side-ways pass analogy; John Rankin'd it) answer.

What would be so wrong with the leader of the LABOUR party saying he would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with nurses and doctors on a picket line in protest over a derisory pay offer?

[Hibbyradge]

I don't actually dislike Starmer, I just think if he were to provide a clear answer he would actually silence some critics rather than doing what he's done to me and frustrate me by giving a politicians (or to go with HB's side-ways pass analogy; John Rankin'd it) answer.

What would be so wrong with the leader of the LABOUR party saying he would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with nurses and doctors on a picket line in protest over a derisory pay offer?

Why is the question being asked? I can guarantee that it's not out of genuine curiosity!

No, it's a trap and an obvious one which would show him as a complete mug if he fell for it.

He would immediately be accused of being in the pocket of the unions.

How can he be Prime Minister if he won't stand up to the unions?

He's prepared to let the sick go untreated because the unions are more important than you!

What will happen when Len McCluskey* demands huge rises for his members? * Insert any current bogey man.

"Back to the 70s".

Pictures of picket line violence with Starmer's face associated would appear.

It doesn't matter that none of it might be true, it's what would happen and Starmer would then be forced to back track, deny and try to dig himself out of it.

[Keith_M]

Why is the question being asked? I can guarantee that it's not out of genuine curiosity!

No, it's a trap and an obvious one which would show him as a complete mug if he fell for it.
.


That was my first thought as well.

Journalists love asking leading questions and then make the worst possible headline out of any answer (or lack of an answer).


e.g.

"Yes, I'd stand by them".... Keir Starmer is a left-winger that wants to take the UK back to the never ending strikes of the 70s and 80s.


"No, I don't think that would be appropriate"... Keir Starmer condemns our beloved NHS workers for standing up to the government's derisory pay offer


"No Comment".... Sly/Anonymous/Useless Keir Starmer refuses to engage in NHS pay dispute.

[SHODAN]

Why is the question being asked? I can guarantee that it's not out of genuine curiosity!

No, it's a trap and an obvious one which would show him as a complete mug if he fell for it.

He would immediately be accused of being in the pocket of the unions.

How can he be Prime Minister if he won't stand up to the unions?

He's prepared to let the sick go untreated because the unions are more important than you!

What will happen when Len McCluskey* demands huge rises for his members? * Insert any current bogey man.

"Back to the 70s".

Pictures of picket line violence with Starmer's face associated would appear.

It doesn't matter that none of it might be true, it's what would happen and Starmer would then be forced to back track, deny and try to dig himself out of it.

If that's true then Labour really is just controlled opposition.

What's the point of a Labour leader that DOESN'T support the unions? They should be trying to change the narrative instead of just accepting it.

All of this is moot anyway, because in the run-up to the GE he'll be smeared day-after-day irregardless because he's Labour leader, and the Tories will win a majority again.

[hibsbollah]

If that's true then Labour really is just controlled opposition.

What's the point of a Labour leader that DOESN'T support the unions? They should be trying to change the narrative instead of just accepting it.

All of this is moot anyway, because in the run-up to the GE he'll be smeared day-after-day irregardless because he's Labour leader, and the Tories will win a majority again.

:agree: You can obviously look at two ways. A Labour Party that is steadfast in being true to the purpose of it being set up in the first place; ie- to provide a voice for working people that didn’t have one. If you listen to that voice you laugh and say ‘yes of course I’d show solidarity with the nurses, what a radge question’. Or you can be a leader that is prioritizing being the better consumer choice, ie- you ask the voter to make a voting decision based on which appeals to you as a voter at that point in time.. If you’re that guy, you might refuse to answer the question out of fear of mythical Middle England Man. There’s also a number of positions in between :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

It's getting close to phone box territory. :greengrin

Any idea if Hollie Cameron has been reinstated yet?

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_Zx0uumY3Yl9PoULy3CRt9TjaBlLKs2Y_Da6Lr1y42w/viewform?edit_requested=true

Anyone know how this is going?

Has Hollie been dumped, and the leadership parachuted someone else in her place.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/campaign-launched-to-reinstate-labour-candidate-hollie-cameron

[Hibbyradge]

:agree: You can obviously look at two ways. A Labour Party that is steadfast in being true to the purpose of it being set up in the first place; ie- to provide a voice for working people that didn’t have one. If you listen to that voice you laugh and say ‘yes of course I’d show solidarity with the nurses, what a radge question’. Or you can be a leader that is prioritizing being the better consumer choice, ie- you ask the voter to make a voting decision based on which appeals to you as a voter at that point in time.. If you’re that guy, you might refuse to answer the question out of fear of mythical Middle England Man. There’s also a number of positions in between :greengrin

The world is very different than when the Labour Party was established.

Corbyn said he was a pacifist, there were pictures of him on the front page of the Sun or Mail or both, of his head on a chicken. Those photos were circulating on social media.

That's what you get for being honest. A few folk thinking you're a hero (they would have thought that anyway), loads of folk cringing with embarrassment, and the rest laughing at you.

I have no doubt Corbyn would have said that he'd be on the picket line. I also have no doubt that his showing in the polls would have dropped as a result.

[Hibbyradge]

If that's true then Labour really is just controlled opposition.

What's the point of a Labour leader that DOESN'T support the unions? They should be trying to change the narrative instead of just accepting it.

All of this is moot anyway, because in the run-up to the GE he'll be smeared day-after-day irregardless because he's Labour leader, and the Tories will win a majority again.

How do you change narrative without power? Jezza arrogantly tells us he "won the arguments". :rolleyes:

I'd rather he'd lost every argument he ever made apart from the colour of the walls in No 10 Downing Street.

You've given up because you think the Tories may win another majority. Do we have to accept that it will be a landslide again too?

[Jones28]

Why is the question being asked? I can guarantee that it's not out of genuine curiosity!

No, it's a trap and an obvious one which would show him as a complete mug if he fell for it.

He would immediately be accused of being in the pocket of the unions.

How can he be Prime Minister if he won't stand up to the unions?

He's prepared to let the sick go untreated because the unions are more important than you!

What will happen when Len McCluskey* demands huge rises for his members? * Insert any current bogey man.

"Back to the 70s".

Pictures of picket line violence with Starmer's face associated would appear.

It doesn't matter that none of it might be true, it's what would happen and Starmer would then be forced to back track, deny and try to dig himself out of it.

I don't disagree with any of this, but I personally feel that I would have had more time for him if he'd said he would stand by our beleaguered NHS workers on a picket than danced around the question. It makes no odds really because I won't vote for Labour until post independence.