The future of the Labour Party

[marinello59]

I knew you'd have the answer.

Cheers.

Independents then?

If you mean will they stand as Independents they probably will be arrogant enough to do that. If you mean do they identify themselves as Independent, no, they identify themselves as the Labour group and claim they have carried out the manifesto they were elected on. (Conveniently forgetting that as a group they lost.)
It gets better, you will love this. :greengrin There is a by-election this week and the Labour candidate announced yesterday that if she wins she will be joining the Aberdeen 9, one of whom is her husband. You really couldn't make it up.

[ronaldo7]

If you mean will they stand as Independents they probably will be arrogant enough to do that. If you mean do they identify themselves as Independent, no, they identify themselves as the Labour group and claim they have carried out the manifesto they were elected on. (Conveniently forgetting that as a group they lost.)
It gets better, you will love this. :greengrin There is a by-election this week and the Labour candidate announced yesterday that if she wins she will be joining the Aberdeen 9, one of whom is her husband. You really couldn't make it up.

Barney's wife eh.

This thread is supposed to be about the future of labour though. 🆘

[One Day Soon]

Scotland's Anneliese Dodds MP as Labour's Shadow Chancellor sticking it to Sunak again today. She improves all the time.

[marinello59]

Scotland's Anneliese Dodds MP as Labour's Shadow Chancellor sticking it to Sunak again today. She improves all the time.

Aye, been very impressed by her so far.

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland's Anneliese Dodds MP as Labour's Shadow Chancellor sticking it to Sunak again today. She improves all the time.

I thought I was good at geography but never realised Oxford is in Scotland 🤔😉

[Smartie]

Scotland's Anneliese Dodds MP as Labour's Shadow Chancellor sticking it to Sunak again today. She improves all the time.

We may disagree about independence but I always like to see prominent Scots performing well within the Labour Party.

And yes, she did very well.

[One Day Soon]

I thought I was good at geography but never realised Oxford is in Scotland 🤔😉

But you do know that Aberdeen, where she was born and brought up, is in Scotland right?

[Moulin Yarns]

But you do know that Aberdeen, where she was born and brought up, is in Scotland right?

Yes, but you do know that she represents an English Constituency. And smilies are used to indicate a joke?

[Jack]

But you do know that Aberdeen, where she was born and brought up, is in Scotland right?

Its a sad state of affairs Labour need to field their best Scottish candidates in England knowing they stand little chance of being elected here.

[One Day Soon]

Yes, but you do know that she represents an English Constituency. And smilies are used to indicate a joke?

I though you'd be pleased a talented Scot is operating at the highest level in Labour at Westminster.

[One Day Soon]

Its a sad state of affairs Labour need to field their best Scottish candidates in England knowing they stand little chance of being elected here.

You know that's not how it works don't you?

[Ozyhibby]

Up to 2nd in latest polling for next May.


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[Northernhibee]

My massive issue with Corbyn isn’t how far to the left he is or isn’t, his policies, how his followers see the centrists or vice versa, it’s that’s he’s an astonishingly incompetent politician who fell into every single trap laid for him by May and Johnson and now we have a large Tory majority and upcoming hard Brexit that an politician with more than one brain cell in their brain would have been able to put a decent fight up against.

Instead the walking suggestion box and his merry band of useful idiots in Momentum offered it on a plate to the Tories and now we’re stuck with the very worst side of the Tory party.

[Moulin Yarns]

I though you'd be pleased a talented Scot is operating at the highest level in Labour at Westminster.

Jack beat me to it, and answers the questions before you asked it. 🤣

[Moulin Yarns]

Up to 2nd in latest polling for next May.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Labour? Congrats to them. 😁

[JeMeSouviens]

I though you'd be pleased a talented Scot is operating at the highest level in Labour at Westminster.

I agree she seems pretty good. Might even make a good chancellor for rUK and good luck to her.

[JeMeSouviens]

Up to 2nd in latest polling for next May.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"up" as in flatlining while the Tories fall beneath them. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

I agree she seems pretty good. Might even make a good chancellor for rUK and good luck to her.

She will. And will conduct financial discussions with the Scottish Government on issues like Barnett much more adroitly.

[Jack]

You know that's not how it works don't you?

I know roughly how it works but not the detail. I have a friend that stood for Labour in the last GE, put his heart and soul into it, very passionate. He's been put off standing next year as the equivalent seat, he lives in the constituency, has been earmarked as one where a woman will be the candidate. Not a particular woman, any woman will do!

So I would say in some respects it doesn't work,.

[Keith_M]

She will. And will conduct financial discussions with the Scottish Government on issues like Barnett much more adroitly.


Hopefully she is in charge soon, so Scotland can negotiate it's exit treaty from the rUK with someone with a bit of brains, instead of that lot in charge just now.

I'm kind of hoping we avoid a Hard Scexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest YouGov:

LAB 40% (+2)
CON 35% (-3)
LDEM 7% (+1)

Johnson's coat on an increasingly shoogly peg. I notice Starmer has been increasingly directing attacks at Rishi Sunak.

Edit - this poll also had Brexit party on 6%, which would presumably all go back to the Tories in a fptp contest. But still ...

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54896340

Shouldn't they be asking Corbyn to apologise, not Starmer? As 'leader' at the time he was responsible for their hopelessly confused Brexit policy.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54896340

Shouldn't they be asking Corbyn to apologise, not Starmer? As 'leader' at the time he was responsible for their hopelessly confused Brexit policy.

Makes one wonder why people are wanting nicola sturgeon to apologise for Alex Salmond? 🤔

[Future17]

Latest YouGov:

LAB 40% (+2)
CON 35% (-3)
LDEM 7% (+1)

Johnson's coat on an increasingly shoogly peg. I notice Starmer has been increasingly directing attacks at Rishi Sunak.

Edit - this poll also had Brexit party on 6%, which would presumably all go back to the Tories in a fptp contest. But still ...

You're giving them too much credit. :greengrin

[SHODAN]

Latest YouGov:

LAB 40% (+2)
CON 35% (-3)
LDEM 7% (+1)

Johnson's coat on an increasingly shoogly peg. I notice Starmer has been increasingly directing attacks at Rishi Sunak.

Edit - this poll also had Brexit party on 6%, which would presumably all go back to the Tories in a fptp contest. But still ...

There is now a solid 40-45% in England who will always vote Conservative in a GE, and will temporarily pretend to vote for Farage in opinion polls as a protest.

Labour aren't winning any time soon.

[Hibbyradge]

There is now a solid 40-45% in England who will always vote Conservative in a GE

Labour aren't winning any time soon.

They used to say that about Labour in Scotland!

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54896340

Shouldn't they be asking Corbyn to apologise, not Starmer? As 'leader' at the time he was responsible for their hopelessly confused Brexit policy.

Yes. They should be asking Corbyn to apologise unreservedly for his luke warm "support" for remain.

"7/10" was actually more than the effort he put in!

[Keith_M]

Yes. They should be asking Corbyn to apologise unreservedly for his luke warm "support" for remain.

"7/10" was actually more than the effort he put in!



The problem was, his position on the EU has never been straightforward. He opposed Britain joining the EEC and he opposed the Maastricht treaty, but later said he was in favour of remaining... but with quite a number of caveats.

He was the wrong leader if Labour had really wanted to oppose Brexit.

[Hibbyradge]

The problem was, his position on the EU has never been straightforward. He opposed Britain joining the EEC and he opposed the Maastricht treaty, but later said he was in favour of remaining... but with quite a number of caveats.

He was the wrong leader if Labour had really wanted to oppose Brexit.

There shouldn't have been caveats. Labour party policy was pro-EU and fully behind remain, not 70% behind it.

He says that he believes conference is "sovereign", but obviously only when it suits him.

His reluctance to put his full weight behind remain gave the green light to previously loyal Labour voters to vote leave.

That was unforgivable as far as I am concerned and is why I backed away from the party with him in charge.

[G B Young]

There shouldn't have been caveats. Labour party policy was pro-EU and fully behind remain, not 70% behind it.

He says that he believes conference is "sovereign", but obviously only when it suits him.

His reluctance to put his full weight behind remain gave the green light to previously loyal Labour voters to vote leave.

That was unforgivable as far as I am concerned and is why I backed away from the party with him in charge.

Throw in his hare-brained economics, a perceived lack of patriotism and, of course, the recent finding that he presided over a mainstream political party which engaged in unlawful harrassment and discrimination and he really was a disgrace of a Labour leader.

[Kato]

Throw in his hare-brained economics, a perceived lack of patriotism and, of course, the recent finding that he presided over a mainstream political party which engaged in unlawful harrassment and discrimination and he really was a disgrace of a Labour leader.

Too right, good we got the Tories. They keep their head down, nothing too wacky or far out and get on with the job. Hardly notice them really. :cb

[neil7908]

As feared, we now have a Labour leader with zero tolerance on anti semitism (except when it's one of his own) but apparently not really bothered about Islamaphobia:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/14/over-half-muslim-labour-members-do-not-trust-party-to-tackle-islamophobia

[Hibbyradge]

As feared, we now have a Labour leader with zero tolerance on anti semitism (except when it's one of his own) but apparently not really bothered about Islamaphobia:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/14/over-half-muslim-labour-members-do-not-trust-party-to-tackle-islamophobia

How did you come to that conclusion? It doesn't mention Starmers's views on the subject.

[G B Young]

How did you come to that conclusion? It doesn't mention Starmers's views on the subject.

Indeed. Where is it 'feared' that Starmer is ignoring the issue? A recently-conducted poll among 400 Muslim party members is a long way from a damning report by the EHRC which took nearly two years to compile. If this issue amounts to anything like the anti-Semitism scandal then I'm not aware of any reason why Starmer wouldn't take it just as seriously or act just as decisively.

[neil7908]

How did you come to that conclusion? It doesn't mention Starmers's views on the subject.

From the article:

A statement provided by Labour and attributed to Starmer and his deputy, Angela Rayner, did not address the issues raised with leadership, but said they would work with LMN to implement its recommendations.

It said: “We thank Labour Muslim Network for this important report, as well as their work to ensure our Muslim members are represented, included and heard. Islamophobia has no place in our party or society and we are committed to rooting it out.”

Doesn't sound like someone with a serious concern of the matter or a burning desire to tackle the problem.

[neil7908]

Indeed. Where is it 'feared' that Starmer is ignoring the issue? A recently-conducted poll among 400 Muslim party members is a long way from a damning report by the EHRC which took nearly two years to compile. If this issue amounts to anything like the anti-Semitism scandal then I'm not aware of any reason why Starmer wouldn't take it just as seriously or act just as decisively.

See the comments above released under his name. The fear is that it's more important for him to be seen to tackle anti semitism than other discrimination in the party.

There is a self described zero tolerance policy for one of form of racism but not others.

[Hibbyradge]

From the article:

A statement provided by Labour and attributed to Starmer and his deputy, Angela Rayner, did not address the issues raised with leadership, but said they would work with LMN to implement its recommendations.

It said: “We thank Labour Muslim Network for this important report, as well as their work to ensure our Muslim members are represented, included and heard. Islamophobia has no place in our party or society and we are committed to rooting it out.”

Doesn't sound like someone with a serious concern of the matter or a burning desire to tackle the problem.

"Islamophobia has no place in our party or society and we are committed to rooting it out.”

What does that sound like? :dunno:

[neil7908]

"Islamophobia has no place in our party or society and we are committed to rooting it out.”

What does that sound like? :dunno:

It sounds like a bland statement which no actual promises or action. You know, the kind of one Corbyn was hammered for issuing.

Action would be making a decision on Trevor Phillips given he's been suspended since March, or coming up with a definition of Islamophobia to ensure clarity on these issues in the future.

Do you honestly read that statement and think that will satisfy the 55% of Muslims that "did not “trust the leadership of the Labour party to tackle Islamophobia effectively”.

[Hibbyradge]

It sounds like a bland statement which no actual promises or action. You know, the kind of one Corbyn was hammered for issuing.

Action would be making a decision on Trevor Phillips given he's been suspended since March, or coming up with a definition of Islamophobia to ensure clarity on these issues in the future.

Do you honestly read that statement and think that will satisfy the 55% of Muslims that "did not “trust the leadership of the Labour party to tackle Islamophobia effectively”.

I read that statement and think that the new Labour leader will start to take steps to eradicate islamaphobia in his party.

Corbyn denied that anti-Semitism existed to any real extent.

You're making the mistake of judging Starmer by Corbyn's standards.

He was asked a question and he's given his reply. Let's see if the words turn into action or not before castigating him.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn denied that anti-Semitism existed to any real extent.



He didn’t deny it. On multiple occasions he said there was AS in the party and it wouldn’t be tolerated. He qualified that by saying it existed in wider society and that the media had exaggerated it for political reasons.

All of those things are true.

[hibsbollah]

Indeed. Where is it 'feared' that Starmer is ignoring the issue? A recently-conducted poll among 400 Muslim party members is a long way from a damning report by the EHRC which took nearly two years to compile. If this issue amounts to anything like the anti-Semitism scandal then I'm not aware of any reason why Starmer wouldn't take it just as seriously or act just as decisively.

Can you explain why your Conservative Party still hasn’t published a report into Islamophobia in the Tory party which was supposed to be in the public domain in August?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/07/tories-islamophobia-proud-muslims-scapegoat
The right wing has always been the natural home for racism and racists, let’s not pretend otherwise.

[Hibbyradge]

He didn’t deny it. On multiple occasions he said there was AS in the party and it wouldn’t be tolerated. He qualified that by saying it existed in wider society and that the media had exaggerated it for political reasons.

All of those things are true.

He said that there was no crisis. He said that there was no problem.

"Corbyn voiced "grave concerns" at comments made by Livingston, in which he claimed Hitler supported Zionism, and maintained the party had no anti-Semitism problem: “No, there is not a problem. We are totally opposed to anti-Semitism in any form within the party. The very small number of cases that have been brought to our attention have been dealt with swiftly and immediately, and they will be.”"

[Hibbyradge]

Can you explain why your Conservative Party still hasn’t published a report into Islamophobia in the Tory party which was supposed to be in the public domain in August?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/07/tories-islamophobia-proud-muslims-scapegoat
The right wing has always been the natural home for racism and racists, let’s not pretend otherwise.

I agree with your points.

It's top whataboutery though.

[hibsbollah]

He said that there was no crisis. He said that there was no problem.

"Corbyn voiced "grave concerns" at comments made by Livingston, in which he claimed Hitler supported Zionism, and maintained the party had no anti-Semitism problem: “No, there is not a problem. We are totally opposed to anti-Semitism in any form within the party. The very small number of cases that have been brought to our attention have been dealt with swiftly and immediately, and they will be.”"

You’re quoting from the Ken Livingston quotes which was years before. There are plenty of recent examples where he explicitly said it was a problem in the party, including in his post report statement.

[hibsbollah]

I agree with your points.

It's top whataboutery though.

I am playing the man not the ball here, I admit it.
The poster concerned takes partiality and partisanship to new levels of ridiculousness and if he’s genuinely interested in the topic of racism he needs to stop being so one eyed about it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am playing the man not the ball here, I admit it.
The poster concerned takes partiality and partisanship to new levels of ridiculousness and if he’s genuinely interested in the topic of racism he needs to stop being such a one eyed trouser snake about it.

FTFY :wink:

[hibsbollah]

FTFY :wink:

Harsh. But fair.

[G B Young]

Can you explain why your Conservative Party still hasn’t published a report into Islamophobia in the Tory party which was supposed to be in the public domain in August?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/07/tories-islamophobia-proud-muslims-scapegoat
The right wing has always been the natural home for racism and racists, let’s not pretend otherwise.

Where have I pretended otherwise? However, the fact that the only other political party to have been investigated by the EHRC is the BNP only serves to spotlight Labour's shame on this issue.

[G B Young]

I am playing the man not the ball here, I admit it.
The poster concerned takes partiality and partisanship to new levels of ridiculousness and if he’s genuinely interested in the topic of racism he needs to stop being so one eyed about it.

Really? It can be irritating or even infuriating to read the views of those whose views don't chime with your own but that doesn't mean mine are partisan or ridiculous. At 'worst' I'd describe them as centre-right. As I've said before, one of the reasons I stick around on here is because there's a decent level of respect for each others' views even though mine are very much in the minority. If they were as extreme as you imply I suspect I'd be launched pretty quickly.

When it comes to partisanship, I'd suggest it's platforms like Facebook etc which encourage it due to the fact it's so easy to align yourself only with people who think like you - which is one of the reasons I go nowhere near them and content myself with a forum like this where I find it healthier to engage with a broad range of viewpoints.

[G B Young]

Harsh. But fair.

Harsh and gratuitous I'd suggest - or perhaps more accurately 'below the belt' :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Harsh and gratuitous I'd suggest - or perhaps more accurately 'below the belt' :wink:

😂 At least you took it as a joke. There are certainly some who couldn't.

[G B Young]

Criticism of Corbyn's suspension being shut down:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-members-suspended-jeremy-corbyn-motion-bristol-b1722437.html

[hibsbollah]

‘Israel is an apartheid state’ is now anti Semitic, apparently.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-launches-investigation-into-new-member-of-party-s-ruling-body-following-israel-apartheid-state-posts-1.508709

Totally bonkers.

[Future17]

‘Israel is an apartheid state’ is now anti Semitic, apparently.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-launches-investigation-into-new-member-of-party-s-ruling-body-following-israel-apartheid-state-posts-1.508709

Totally bonkers.

“I’m torn between wanting to be a high class Westminster politician or a porn star.”

Too many punchlines...

[Hibbyradge]

‘Israel is an apartheid state’ is now anti Semitic, apparently.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-launches-investigation-into-new-member-of-party-s-ruling-body-following-israel-apartheid-state-posts-1.508709

Totally bonkers.

I wonder why she thinks that.

[Pretty Boy]

Rightly or wrongly as soon as someone compares Israel to apartheid South Africa or, perhaps more relevantly, Nazi Germany and relates Palestinian settlements with ghettos, it immediately derails the discussion. We get bogged down in arguments about what constitutes anti semitism and what is and isn't a pejorative turn of phrase.

I realise the argument that will come back is that we should call something for what it is and I have a degree of sympathy for that. However if using a certain turn of phrase takes the discussion off on a tangent and dilutes the argument being made to the point it is no longer the focus of the debate then is altering your language not a better option? There are countless examples that would make the same point without provoking the response we all know is coming. Perhaps tailoring language to suit the discussion at hand might actually see the topic discussed rather than the language around it.

[neil7908]

Rightly or wrongly as soon as someone compares Israel to apartheid South Africa or, perhaps more relevantly, Nazi Germany and relates Palestinian settlements with ghettos, it immediately derails the discussion. We get bogged down in arguments about what constitutes anti semitism and what is and isn't a pejorative turn of phrase.

I realise the argument that will come back is that we should call something for what it is and I have a degree of sympathy for that. However if using a certain turn of phrase takes the discussion off on a tangent and dilutes the argument being made to the point it is no longer the focus of the debate then is altering your language not a better option? There are countless examples that would make the same point without provoking the response we all know is coming. Perhaps tailoring language to suit the discussion at hand might actually see the topic discussed rather than the language around it.

I can understand why comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is hurtful and a totally unnecessary comparison. That should imo not be a relevant discussion point brought up by anyone looking to be treated seriously.

But why not South Africa? Or using ghettos? These are well-known phrases and examples. I fear if we begin to strip certain well established words out of our language then we may as well not have a discussion as the other side clearly aren't interested if they can't stomach those common phrasings.

I appreciate you've covered some of this in your post above but I think concerns over language are used by those not wanting to enter into a discussion, and it's highly unlikely they are open to a genuine debate with an open mind if they can't move past reasonable comparisons.

[hibsbollah]

I wonder why she thinks that.

I think that. Because it self evidently IS the case.

Do you wonder why I think that too? Am i to be tarred with an anti Semitic brush? Or Saudi criticism silenced because it’s Islamophobia?

We have arrived at the place where this was always intended to go. Criticism of the apartheid state Israel is now forbidden, no matter how you do it.

Just to emphasise, the UN considers Israel ‘an apartheid state.’

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/03/18/un-report-israel-has-established-an-apartheid-regime/

[Hibbyradge]

I think that. Because it self evidently IS the case.

Do you wonder why I think that too? Am i to be tarred with an anti Semitic brush? Or Saudi criticism silenced because it’s Islamophobia?

We have arrived at the place where this was always intended to go. Criticism of the apartheid state Israel is now forbidden, no matter how you do it.

My point is that she, as far as I can see, is the only person who has said that her remark had been deemed anti-Semitic.

[G B Young]

‘Israel is an apartheid state’ is now anti Semitic, apparently.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-launches-investigation-into-new-member-of-party-s-ruling-body-following-israel-apartheid-state-posts-1.508709

Totally bonkers.

It's her who sounds bonkers.

[hibsbollah]

It's her who sounds bonkers.

I’m not surprised you think that, you’re a Tory.
Going in ad hominem on her might give you satisfaction but it doesn’t address the point that what she’s said isn’t remotely AS.

[hibsbollah]

My point is that she, as far as I can see, is the only person who has said that her remark had been deemed anti-Semitic.

Labour List has reported complaints have been made about her, and that they are being investigated.

[Hibbyradge]

Labour List has reported complaints have been made about her, and that they are being investigated.

I know but, as far as I can see no-one has said that the remarks she chose to quote have been deemed anti-Semitic.

Her social media comments are being investigated. Are we to assume that she's going to be found guilty?

Like she found all those MPs she was so excited to see deselected...

[G B Young]

I’m not surprised you think that, you’re a Tory.
Going in ad hominem on her might give you satisfaction but it doesn’t address the point that what she’s said isn’t remotely AS.

I just couldn't see any reference in the story to a threat of suspension - and the way it's written makes her sound like she's trying to sensationalise the issue ('that, comrades, is a hill I am perfectly happy to die on'?!). Maybe that's just the Jewish Chronicle slanting things to make her sound a bit crackers though.

[G B Young]

Starmer: Jeremy Corbyn won't return as Labour MP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916

Correct decision surely if Starmer wasn't to end up looking weak. He'd previously said that those (ie Corbyn and his cronies) "who believed the issue of anti-Semitism in the party had been exaggerated should be nowhere near the Labour Party" yet allowed his suspension to be lifted yesterday. To have returned the whip would have put his authority as leader under severe scrutiny.

Mind you, all this will do is make the Labour party more divided than ever on this issue.

[greenlex]

Starmer: Jeremy Corbyn won't return as Labour MP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916

Correct decision surely if Starmer wasn't to end up looking weak. He'd previously said that those (ie Corbyn and his cronies) "who believed the issue of anti-Semitism in the party had been exaggerated should be nowhere near the Labour Party" yet allowed his suspension to be lifted yesterday. To have returned the whip would have put his authority as leader under severe scrutiny.

Mind you, all this will do is make the Labour party more divided than ever on this issue.
Makes independence look more inevitable as Labour tears itself apart allowing god awful Tories a free run once more as there is no credible opposition UK wide.

[G B Young]

Makes independence look more inevitable as Labour tears itself apart allowing god awful Tories a free run once more as there is no credible opposition UK wide.

Starmer's got another four years to make the Labour party electable again. If he continues his purge of the Corbynistas he could bring a lot of more moderate voters back on board. I quite like what I've seen of him so far, although it's hard to judge when 'normal' politics has been off the agenda for so long.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer's got another four years to make the Labour party electable again. If he continues his purge of the Corbynistas he could bring a lot of more moderate voters back on board. I quite like what I've seen of him so far, although it's hard to judge when 'normal' politics has been off the agenda for so long.

10 years into Tory govt and you think Labour can waste another 4 years?


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[Moulin Yarns]

10 years into Tory govt and you think Labour can waste another 4 years?


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You know he isn't saying that. What he is saying is that the next election is 4 years away and Starmer has that time to consolidate the party.

[Ozyhibby]

You know he isn't saying that. What he is saying is that the next election is 4 years away and Starmer has that time to consolidate the party.

I’m saying I don’t think he has that time. It needs to move a lot quicker than that if trust is to be built up in Labour if it is to win power again.


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[G B Young]

I’m saying I don’t think he has that time. It needs to move a lot quicker than that if trust is to be built up in Labour if it is to win power again.


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I'd say the fact that he sacked Rebecca Long-Bailey and had Corbyn suspended within his first few months of becoming leader smacks of a determination to stamp out the racism against Jewish people within the party which has dogged them for years, as well as clearing out what's left of the faction which were largely responsible for leading the party to their worst election result in nearly a century.

As I said, it's hard to make much political headway in the current circumstances but even at this early stage Starmer strikes me as a leader who might persuade me to vote Labour in 2024.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd say the fact that he sacked Rebecca Long-Bailey and had Corbyn suspended within his first few months of becoming leader smacks of a determination to stamp out the racism against Jewish people within the party which has dogged them for years, as well as clearing out what's left of the faction which were largely responsible for leading the party to their worst election result in nearly a century.

As I said, it's hard to make much political headway in the current circumstances but even at this early stage Starmer strikes me as a leader who might persuade me to vote Labour in 2024.

You moving to England? 😉

[G B Young]

You moving to England? 😉

:greengrin

[Future17]

Starmer hasn't done much to make me think he can win the next UK Parliamentary election, although I admit I haven't been paying as much attention as I perhaps should have. However, if he can keep at Johnson in relation to this "lack of leadership" attack strategy and make more of the incompetence/corruption regarding procurement during the pandemic, he might gain some traction.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer hasn't done much to make me think he can win the next UK Parliamentary election, although I admit I haven't been paying as much attention as I perhaps should have. However, if he can keep at Johnson in relation to this "lack of leadership" attack strategy and make more of the incompetence/corruption regarding procurement during the pandemic, he might gain some traction.

He needs to attack the party, not just Johnson as the Tories will switch leader in time to win again in 2025.


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[Colr]

He needs to attack the party, not just Johnson as the Tories will switch leader in time to win again in 2025.


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Should be plenty of material for him to work on.

After seeing Starmer dissect Mr Bumble every week, most of them will papper themselves when they find themselves in the line of fire.

I’d like to see Yvette Cooper start to take the **** Patel apart in committee the way she did Teresa May.

[Colr]

Starmer hasn't done much to make me think he can win the next UK Parliamentary election, although I admit I haven't been paying as much attention as I perhaps should have. However, if he can keep at Johnson in relation to this "lack of leadership" attack strategy and make more of the incompetence/corruption regarding procurement during the pandemic, he might gain some traction.

Labour are ahead in the polls now. We’re a long way from an election, though. You need to time your run. Alternative programmes are for nearer the election.

[G B Young]

If Lavery's serious about a leadership challenge it's something Labour could really do without:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-ally-ian-lavery-threatens-to-challenge-sir-kier-starmer-for-labour-leadership-qx6xzt857

[HibernianJK]

Latest Opinium poll has Tories back in front and +3 while Labour has dropped -4.

[Northernhibee]

If Lavery's serious about a leadership challenge it's something Labour could really do without:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-ally-ian-lavery-threatens-to-challenge-sir-kier-starmer-for-labour-leadership-qx6xzt857

The worst enemy of Labour is Labour. Absolute madness.

[Kato]

The worst enemy of Labour is Labour. Absolute madness.

It's the story of left wing politics since the beginning. Solidarity and togetherness patchy at best. Always some smarty pants exercising some kind of oneupmanship, spilts, faction and jealousy.

[G B Young]

It's the story of left wing politics since the beginning. Solidarity and togetherness patchy at best. Always some smarty pants exercising some kind of oneupmanship, spilts, faction and jealousy.

A former boss of mine (known as 'Red Ted') used to scoff when the chat turned to the weekend's football. Said it was a sport which divided and therefore diluted the unity of the working class.

[Kato]

A former boss of mine (known as 'Red Ted') used to scoff when the chat turned to the weekend's football. Said it was a sport which divided and therefore diluted the unity of the working class.

Sounds like the type of left wing gadge who would scoff at a lot of things.

[neil7908]

Latest Opinium poll has Tories back in front and +3 while Labour has dropped -4.

I honestly just dont get voters. What can they have seen of the Tories recently that has changed their mind?

[Moulin Yarns]

I honestly just dont get voters. What can they have seen of the Tories recently that has changed their mind?

80% salary without having to lift a finger. Tory ethics right there, as Dire Straights put it so well, 'money for nothing'. 💵😉

[G B Young]

A mass Zoom walk-out. Is that a first?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/corbyn-supporting-labour-faction-stage-nec-mass-walkout

I'm guessing the impact might have been rather less than a mass walk-out from a conference hall.

[Bristolhibby]

Latest Opinium poll has Tories back in front and +3 while Labour has dropped -4.

WTF is wrong with people?

Independence is really the only way for Scotland. I’m stuck with the cants down here.

J

[hibsbollah]

A mass Zoom walk-out. Is that a first?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/corbyn-supporting-labour-faction-stage-nec-mass-walkout

I'm guessing the impact might have been rather less than a mass walk-out from a conference hall.



What IS a first is the Labour leader ignoring the rules about a rotating Chair of the NEC to avoid a left wing chair, and instead installing a self proclaimed ‘moron’ in his place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33625612

Lots of Firsts these days.

[JeMeSouviens]

I honestly just dont get voters. What can they have seen of the Tories recently that has changed their mind?

We've all just been reminded about Corbyn, anti-semitism and left-right Lab infighting. Starmer needs that to all be a distant memory by the next GE.

[JeMeSouviens]

WTF is wrong with people?

Independence is really the only way for Scotland. I’m stuck with the cants down here.

J

:agree:

The thing is, even if Starmer wins next time out, it'll be no time at all until yet another Tory drawn from the puddle-depth pool of Etonian "talent" will be along to totally reverse any good he can do. :rolleyes:

[Mibbes Aye]

What IS a first is the Labour leader ignoring the rules about a rotating Chair of the NEC to avoid a left wing chair, and instead installing a self proclaimed ‘moron’ in his place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33625612

Lots of Firsts these days.

What a crying shame.

Still, there is rich irony in Corbynistas moaning about ‘factionalism’.

If they are that unhappy they can take the entryisists and bugger off to form their own party.

But oh, then they wouldn’t be be able to access the funding and support of the Labour Party.

Parasites.

[marinello59]

A mass Zoom walk-out. Is that a first?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/corbyn-supporting-labour-faction-stage-nec-mass-walkout

I'm guessing the impact might have been rather less than a mass walk-out from a conference hall.

This bit is brilliant.


One source described how Howard Beckett had given an angry speech ahead of the walkout but then spent an agonising minute attempting to find the button to leave the virtual meeting.

:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

What a crying shame.

Still, there is rich irony in Corbynistas moaning about ‘factionalism’.

If they are that unhappy they can take the entryisists and bugger off to form their own party.

But oh, then they wouldn’t be be able to access the funding and support of the Labour Party.

Parasites.

You really don’t care about party democracy, do you? It’s pure Machiavelli. You’re definitely channeling your inner Stalin with the ‘parasite’ talk. You sound angry, i often wonder where the energy to fight the Tories comes from when the Nats and the Trots take so much of the emotional energy. That’s where Labour in Scotland messed things up, of course.

[Mibbes Aye]

You really don’t care about party democracy, do you? It’s pure Machiavelli. You’re definitely channeling your inner Stalin with the ‘parasite’ talk. You sound angry, i often wonder where the energy to fight the Tories comes from when the Nats and the Trots take so much of the emotional energy. That’s where Labour in Scotland messed things up, of course.

Yeah right. You really need to get over the fact that Corbyn was an absolute failure on so many levels and maybe reclaim your three pounds :greengrin

[Smartie]

A former boss of mine (known as 'Red Ted') used to scoff when the chat turned to the weekend's football. Said it was a sport which divided and therefore diluted the unity of the working class.

Was that not a quote often attributed to a former Edinburgh Leith and North MP? Ron Brown I think his name was. He would duck questions about his footballing allegiance with that answer, or so I may have been told at one point.

I’m sure it was the Royle family guy on who do you think you are who found out something about sectarianism largely dying out on Merseyside when the working classes decided they’d be better off joining forces than continuing to fight and weaken each other.

[hibsbollah]

Yeah right. You really need to get over the fact that Corbyn was an absolute failure on so many levels and maybe reclaim your three pounds :greengrin

:dunno: Peculiar response. I didn’t pay £3 and I’m not particularly wedded to Corbyn as an individual or identify with any particular faction. As I’ve made clear many times. I’d just quite like not to be living under the most dangerous Tory Government in living memory and more pointless bloodletting isn’t going to engage the electorate. Disunited parties lose every time. It was never completely clear how Starmer was going to lead but during the campaign his mantra was ‘end factionalism’. Which is I suppose what he’s doing, in the sense that he’s just going for mass obliteration.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/28/starmer-prepares-to-reopen-old-labour-wounds-over-brexit-deal-vote

Labour preparing to vote with the Tories whilst they push Corbyn out of the party.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/28/starmer-prepares-to-reopen-old-labour-wounds-over-brexit-deal-vote

Labour preparing to vote with the Tories whilst they push Corbyn out of the party.

Brilliant. Throwing red meat at the wall to the south, whilst ignoring Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/28/starmer-prepares-to-reopen-old-labour-wounds-over-brexit-deal-vote

Labour preparing to vote with the Tories whilst they push Corbyn out of the party.

Does that leave the SNP as the only party now opposed to brexit in Scotland?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Does that leave the SNP as the only party now opposed to brexit in Scotland?


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Ahem, GREENS :wink:

[Glory Lurker]

Brilliant. Throwing red meat at the wall to the south, whilst ignoring Scotland.

It underlines that Scotland avoiding a Tory government is dependent on the whims of xenophobes in the north of England. Union dividend.

[G B Young]

Was that not a quote often attributed to a former Edinburgh Leith and North MP? Ron Brown I think his name was. He would duck questions about his footballing allegiance with that answer, or so I may have been told at one point.

I’m sure it was the Royle family guy on who do you think you are who found out something about sectarianism largely dying out on Merseyside when the working classes decided they’d be better off joining forces than continuing to fight and weaken each other.

Yes, Ron Brown was the guy you're thinking of. He might have used that argument but IIRC it was because he was a Rangers fan that he didn't want his football allegiance to be too well known in his Hibs-minded constituency. Might be wrong about that though.

Re the 'football divides the working class' argument, it's a line that's been peddled by socialists down the years:

https://socialistpartyp.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/workers-of-the-world-united-football-and-socialism/

[Glory Lurker]

Yes, Ron Brown was the guy you're thinking of. He might have used that argument but IIRC it was because he was a Rangers fan that he didn't want his football allegiance to be too well known in his Hibs-minded constituency. Might be wrong about that though.

Re the 'football divides the working class' argument, it's a line that's been peddled by socialists down the years:

https://socialistpartyp.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/workers-of-the-world-united-football-and-socialism/

Won't click on the link, but I remember hearing something like "international football is just war, but without the guns" years ago. Aye. The point is there's no guns. Dinosaurs even then.

[cabbageandribs1875]

aww poor dickie leonard getting reprimanded, poor stuff dickie

24115

[CropleyWasGod]

Won't click on the link, but I remember hearing something like "international football is just war, but without the guns" years ago. Aye. The point is there's no guns. Dinosaurs even then.

George Orwell. :agree:

[HibernianJK]

https://twitter.com/doubledownnews/status/1334480600946929667?s=21

Don’t know much of the story behind this but apparently this woman has been suspended for Anti Semitism. Listening to her speak youd think her pretty far from the sort.

[Keith_M]

https://twitter.com/doubledownnews/status/1334480600946929667?s=21

Don’t know much of the story behind this but apparently this woman has been suspended for Anti Semitism. Listening to her speak youd think her pretty far from the sort.


"People have been weaponising Anti-Semitism"

Even against some Jewish members who don't toe the current party line.

It's totally disgusting.

[lucky]

Yes, Ron Brown was the guy you're thinking of. He might have used that argument but IIRC it was because he was a Rangers fan that he didn't want his football allegiance to be too well known in his Hibs-minded constituency. Might be wrong about that though.

Re the 'football divides the working class' argument, it's a line that's been peddled by socialists down the years:

https://socialistpartyp.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/workers-of-the-world-united-football-and-socialism/

Ron Brown was a Jambo and never hid the fact. Football wasn’t as polarised in Edinburgh when he was an MP

[lucky]

aww poor dickie leonard getting reprimanded, poor stuff dickie

24115

Not sure highlighting a food bank is poor stuff. Yes he should have got permission to use the photo but it looks more a political point scoring by those who run it.

[hibsbollah]

"People have been weaponising Anti-Semitism"

Even against some Jewish members who don't toe the current party line.

It's totally disgusting.

The current term of online abuse is ‘self hating Jew’. A deeply anti Semitic historical trope in itself, of course. Used by millionaire Labour Party donor David Abrahams in his islamophobic rant this week, the anti Semitic element of which the Guardian strangely seems to have completely missed in their reporting.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/04/islamophobia-labour-david-abrahams-british-muslims

[The Modfather]

Not sure highlighting a food bank is poor stuff. Yes he should have got permission to use the photo but it looks more a political point scoring by those who run it.

I’d agree if he was highlighting a food bank for the sole aim of highlighting a problem that still exists. By tying it to independence & the SNP is he not as guilty of self interest and political point scoring as anyone else rather than any genuine interest in raising awareness of the food bank issue. He should be raising the issue and asking how all parties can come together to work towards fixing the issue or at least making a practical difference in what is probably a complex issue to fix.

[cabbageandribs1875]

sadiq khan's deputy mayor didn't realise he was still on a zoom call....eating his freakin earwax the dirty mingin runt :bitchy:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m0lX7Xtu2M

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55278454

Is this party policy?

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55278454

Is this party policy?

I hope so.

[Curried]

“I don’t accept” that Ed Miliband hadn’t been hoovering Bolivian marching powder before appearing on the Andrew Marr show this morning.

[Moulin Yarns]

“I don’t accept” that Ed Miliband hadn’t been hoovering Bolivian marching powder before appearing on the Andrew Marr show this morning.

:agree: That was some rant

[cabbageandribs1875]

what a deal, last min xmas prezzie for red yoonies




https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132349074_1037648550045067_2582428628248734326_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vBpbv5KlBuMAX9EkbjB&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=95bdc447b1e944207f2ba3c334ee74fe&oe=60089ADB


nah, still far too expensive

[BroxburnHibee]

#starmerquits trending????

[ronaldo7]

#starmerquits trending????

Would we notice.🙈

[Ozyhibby]

Would we notice.[emoji85]

He’s abstaining on a decision.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18988124.labour-msp-changes-topic-bbc-appearance-nicola-sturgeon-tweet/

Labour still behind the curve when it comes to this pandemic. They're all over the place.

[marinello59]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18988124.labour-msp-changes-topic-bbc-appearance-nicola-sturgeon-tweet/

Labour still behind the curve when it comes to this pandemic. They're all over the place.

It's like Leonard at FM questions, he'd be as well sometimes asking Sturgeon what her favourite colour was.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's like Leonard at FM questions, he'd be as well sometimes asking Sturgeon what her favourite colour was.

Green, her husband told her 😉

[weecounty hibby]

Ian Gray and the Good Morning North Britain team got handed their ***** as well this morning. BBC tweeted that they would have Gray on demanding that the govt publish the details and evidence for the lockdown. First response was from the FM saying they were published yesterday with a link. Labour have become a not so funny joke in Scotland and are throwing ***** about all over the place. Often forgetting what their colleagues in Wales have done and indeed what their boss has said in England.

[ronaldo7]

The "Scottish" labour party have announced that, Katy Clark, or Baroness Clark of kilwinning from the house of lords, is to stand in Cunninghame north at the Scottish elections. She just pipped that better together stalwart, Johanna Baxter, last seen, dancing with Tories at the better together ball. 😆

[greenlex]

I got a bit of stick for suggesting a knight of the realm wasn’t the person to lead the Labour Party. It seems the knight is blinded with the title. He’s as Tory as the rest of them. IMO.

[Hiber-nation]

I got a bit of stick for suggesting a knight of the realm wasn’t the person to lead the Labour Party. It seems the knight is blinded with the title. He’s as Tory as the rest of them. IMO.

He was awful on the Marr show this morning. Really really poor. Don't think he'll ever come across well in that type of forum, the Commons at PMQs is more his thing when he can slaughter a sitting duck..

[SHODAN]

Labour not supporting free movement is another reason why I, a born into a multinational family, engaged to an EU citizen, can never, EVER vote for them again.

Independence or bust.

[G B Young]

He was awful on the Marr show this morning. Really really poor. Don't think he'll ever come across well in that type of forum, the Commons at PMQs is more his thing when he can slaughter a sitting duck..

I didn't see him on the Marr show (and I agree he doesn't come across particularly well on TV) but having read his quotes on the BBC website he spoke a lot of sense about Scotland's future IMHO.

[weecounty hibby]

I didn't see him on the Marr show (and I agree he doesn't come across particularly well on TV) but having read his quotes on the BBC website he spoke a lot of sense about Scotland's future IMHO.
Only if you are in the dwindling band of unionists. Once again it was an English MP who visits Scotland maybe once every 5 years on average telling the people who live here what we want and even worse what we can and can't have.

[Ozyhibby]

I didn't see him on the Marr show (and I agree he doesn't come across particularly well on TV) but having read his quotes on the BBC website he spoke a lot of sense about Scotland's future IMHO.

Sorry, what did he say about Scotland’s future?


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[Hiber-nation]

Sorry, what did he say about Scotland’s future?


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Divisive referendum....blah blah blah....but status quo not working....blah blah blah.

[Ozyhibby]

Divisive referendum....blah blah blah....but status quo not working....blah blah blah.

Ah ok. So he had zero to say about Scotland’s future then. As usual. [emoji23]


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[Hibbyradge]

Labour not supporting free movement is another reason why I, a born into a multinational family, engaged to an EU citizen, can never, EVER vote for them again.

Independence or bust.

Never say never. Unless it's about voting Tory, obvs.

I never thought I'd vote SNP again after they facilitated Thatcher's election to Prime Minister, but until I moved to York, I had supported their candidates for years.

Sits back, takes a sip of his drink, smiles knowingly and waits...

[Hiber-nation]

Ah ok. So he had zero to say about Scotland’s future then. As usual. [emoji23]


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Correct!

[ballengeich]

Correct!
Wrong. He was clear that Scotland's future should be decided at Westminster.

[hibsbollah]

He was awful on the Marr show this morning. Really really poor. Don't think he'll ever come across well in that type of forum, the Commons at PMQs is more his thing when he can slaughter a sitting duck..

For pro European voters wondering whether Labour is a party to pin any hope on, it was really poor.

For teachers and NHS workers wondering whether Labour is going to put serious pressure on the Govt over COVID, it was really poor.

For Brexit voters who haven’t burnt all their bridges to Labour and who might be considering a return to a Labour party with a sober, suit wearing patriotism, it was probably quite comforting.

When Marr asked him what was the one thing that he would do if he was PM in relation to getting COVID under control, and he said ‘getting vaccinations done and I accept the government are addressing this’, it was actually like listening to a coalition partner (Nick Clegg?)

On Scotland, Labour has an official position which is No to Independence and No to another Referendum, but candidates on the Labour list will be campaigning for No to Independence but in some cases will be Neutral or Supportive of another referendum. It’s up to Labour members to decide which kind of candidates they want to put forward.

[CloudSquall]

When the UK is in dire need of a robust opposition we've got Keir acting like Boris' biggest cheerleader.

[Andy Bee]

Wrong. He was clear that Scotland's future should be decided at Westminster.

Ahh, like he was clear a referendum was "A matter for the people of Scotland"

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/keir-starmer-indyref2-a-matter-for-people-in-scotland?top

[Hiber-nation]

Wrong. He was clear that Scotland's future should be decided at Westminster.


Ahh, like he was clear a referendum was "A matter for the people of Scotland"

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/keir-starmer-indyref2-a-matter-for-people-in-scotland?top

Sir Keir, in a nutshell.

[marinello59]

Well, who is next? Who would want the job with another poor election showing looking likely?

[Hibbyradge]

Well, who is next? Who would want the job with another poor election showing looking likely?

I'll do it.

My absence from Scotland can only be a positive.

[ronaldo7]

Well, who is next? Who would want the job with another poor election showing looking likely?

That Baroness wifey, Katy Clark.

[hibsbollah]

Is that a tartan suit wearing jambo I can see hoving into view?

[Barney McGrew]

Richard Leonard has resigned as Scottish Labour leader

[Hibrandenburg]

Oh dear, where will they now find someone who is genetically programmed to make political decisions? :duck:

[Pretty Boy]

Will anyone notice?

[Billy Whizz]

Well, who is next? Who would want the job with another poor election showing looking likely?

Who?

[marinello59]

Is that a tartan suit wearing jambo I can see hoving into view?

I’ve been running through a list of candidates who I thought could be the biggest electoral liability for Scottish Labour. I’d totally forgotten about him. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Oh dear, where will they now find someone who is genetically programmed to make political decisions? :duck:

I’m struggling to name another Labour MSP? Has to be Iain Murray?


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[Blackfordhibby]

Why wotz e done, apart from nowt?

[Callum_62]

After the poll put them in 2nd place? [emoji636]

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[Mon Dieu4]

They need to change their message as well as their leader, vast swathes of the Scottish electorate have moved on but they have stood still

[Ozyhibby]

Jackie Bailie?


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[marinello59]

Why wotz e done, apart from nowt?

He probably found himself heckling his own performances when watching playbacks of FM questions. Yesterday was yet another low point for him.

[marinello59]

After the poll put them in 2nd place? [emoji636]

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Yet still losing seats.

[marinello59]

I’m struggling to name another Labour MSP? Has to be Iain Murray?


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It may be too soon for her but Monica Lennon is one of their more popular and recognisable MSPs. They could do worse.

[Hibby70]

I don't think I've seen a public figure so out of this depth than Leonard. In terms of being a leader anyway.

All he did was read out what "Jeanette from Glenrothes" or whoever had a story to tell. I actually felt embarrassed for him.

[Mon Dieu4]

I think he's actually a decent bloke who's heart is in the right place but he's just not engaging enough

[cabbageandribs1875]

absolutely gutted the leotard has left the building :( please let it be jackie bailie :hyper

[G B Young]

Richard Leonard has resigned as Scottish Labour leader

I'm amazed he stayed in post as long as he did.

[Bristolhibby]

Richard Leonard has resigned as Scottish Labour leader

Who?

[Santa Cruz]

Jackie Bailie?


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Didn't want the job a few years ago, mores the pity, she's impressive.

[Moulin Yarns]

It may be too soon for her but Monica Lennon is one of their more popular and recognisable MSPs. They could do worse.

Anas?

[Smartie]

He's pretty awful but it is hard to imagine anyone who is better who could do better.

Just emphasises what an incredible fall from grace it has been for Labour in Scotland over the past decade or so.

[G B Young]

Who?

He certainly remained all but anonymous during his tenure. A Corbyn appointment which underlined how little grasp he had of Scottish politcs.

[Ozyhibby]

He's pretty awful but it is hard to imagine anyone who is better who could do better.

Just emphasises what an incredible fall from grace it has been for Labour in Scotland over the past decade or so.

They are selling a product their former voters no longer want. They have to either change or continue to decline. A new leader without a shift in policy on Indy is doomed to failure.


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[G B Young]

Neil Findlay seemed to rate him, judging by the angry tweet featured a few paragraphs into this story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55666234

[SHODAN]

Richard Leonard has resigned as Scottish Labour leader

Oh no. This is so significant.

[SHODAN]

They are selling a product their former voters no longer want. They have to either change or continue to decline. A new leader without a shift in policy on Indy is doomed to failure.


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Monica Lennon?

[ronaldo7]

Neil Findlay seemed to rate him, judging by the angry tweet featured a few paragraphs into this story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55666234

3 years of getting stabbed in the back must have hurt. Maybe Jackie baillies flats didn't penetrate as much as Monica's stilettos

[lucky]

Sad day, I’ve known RL for 20 plus years but he’s not a leader but a great socialist , trade unionists and internationalist. In this world of social media and punchy 1 liners he was always going to struggle. Lennon has little to no chance of being the leader. Bailey, Johnston, Kelly and Sarwar gang will already be plotting to have one of them go forward. I I actually think they’ll push Johnston as he’s Ian Murray’s choice but there is this misguided belief that the only SLP become relevant is to move more to the unionist cause

[Hibrandenburg]

Sad day, I’ve known RL for 20 plus years but he’s not a leader but a great socialist , trade unionists and internationalist. In this world of social media and punchy 1 liners he was always going to struggle. Lennon has little to no chance of being the leader. Bailey, Johnston, Kelly and Sarwar gang will already be plotting to have one of them go forward. I I actually think they’ll push Johnston as he’s Ian Murray’s choice but there is this misguided belief that the only SLP become relevant is to move more unionists

Sturgeon has just said despite their political differences she considers him to be a great guy. Can't argue with that as I think his heart was in the right place.

[CloudSquall]

It has to be Ian Murray to set the parliament up for the Ultimate Unionist Championship finale vs Douglas Ross.

[ronaldo7]

Sir keir saying he should very proud of his achievements.

[ronaldo7]

I'm rooting for James Kelly. 😁

[Keith_M]

Would it be wise to put Ian Murray, an MP in Westminster, in charge of Scottish Labour?

I would have thought they'd want the leader to be in Holyrood, so in direct opposition to the SNP.

[Keith_M]

Oh and I believe Sturgeon's exact words when asked about Leonard were, "Decent chap, completely useless at his job"

[Ozyhibby]

Would it be wise to put Ian Murray, an MP in Westminster, in charge of Scottish Labour?

I would have thought they'd want the leader to be in Holyrood, so in direct opposition to the SNP.

Is it too late to add him to their List in time for May?


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[Keith_M]

Is it too late to add him to their List in time for May?


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I wouldn't have thought so, but would he resign his role as an MP?

I'd imagine anybody doing both jobs would be in for a bit of stick.

[One Day Soon]

Looking forward to Anas as leader.

They'd be better off with Neil, Danny or John rather than Monica Lennon.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking forward to Anas as leader.

They'd be better off with Neil, Danny or John rather than Monica Lennon.

There are 2 's' in ass. :wink:

[Keith_M]

Looking forward to Anas as leader.




As a supporter of Labour, what is it about him that appeals to you?

I don't really know a lot about him myself.

[weecounty hibby]

When will Labour realise that its not the leader they need to change but perhaps it is the message. They are constantly out unionised by the Tories but they continually tell Scotland that it's not allowed to have another referendum. From both the Scottish and the head office teams. They seem incapable of reading the trajectory of travel of Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

As a supporter of Labour, what is it about him that appeals to you?

I don't really know a lot about him myself.

Well he's not Jackie Baillie or Ian Murray or (god forbid) James Kelly. That's got to count for something. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

As a supporter of Labour, what is it about him that appeals to you?

I don't really know a lot about him myself.

His dad's a millionaire? 👍

[Keith_M]

Well he's not Jackie Baillie or Ian Murray or (god forbid) James Kelly. That's got to count for something. :greengrin


Perhaps, but you're definitely not our resident Labour voter.



:wink:



His dad's a millionaire? ��

Actually, now you mention it, wasn't he involved in some 'scandal' about his Dad's business?

[JeMeSouviens]

Perhaps, but you're definitely not our resident Labour voter.



:wink:




Actually, now you mention it, wasn't he involved in some 'scandal' about his Dad's business?

Spoilsport!

I think the scandal involved his brother rather than Anas himself and the conviction was overturned on appeal.

[Keith_M]

Spoilsport!

I think the scandal involved his brother rather than Anas himself and the conviction was overturned on appeal.


Oh yeah, that's right. His brother had a conviction for a massive tax fraud at the company firm overturned, as the judge said there wasn't enough evidence against him


Anas Sarwar, on the other hand, was pointed out to be a hypocrite by Leonard because the family firm doesn't pay the Living Wage to their employees, and most of them were on a lot lower rate. I think he also said the company doesn't allow Union representation.

[Keith_M]

I googled the Sarwar wage thing and here's his 'defence'...


'Asked if pay levels at the family firm undermined his credibility, he answered: “The difference is I don’t support a voluntary real living wage. I support a mandatory real living wage. I don’t think it’s right that the market dictates what a fair day’s pay is, and that’s why I want it to be a compulsory policy.” '
https://www.thenational.scot/news/15547846.labour-close-ranks-over-anas-sarwar-pay-scandal-by-banning-questions-at-hustings/


Obviously it would have been against his socialist principles to pay the employees a decent wage voluntarily.

I'm glad that's cleared up, then...

:rolleyes:

[The Modfather]

Can we get Ignsh/Tornadoes back for 24 hours to get his analysis? Did we blink and miss the Richard Leonard utopia the poster promised?

[Callum_62]

Oh and I believe Sturgeon's exact words when asked about Leonard were, "Decent chap, completely useless at his job"https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1349757330792083461?s=19

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[One Day Soon]

Can we get Ignsh/Tornadoes back for 24 hours to get his analysis? Did we blink and miss the Richard Leonard utopia the poster promised?


Mon Labour.

Am I doing it right?

[Bostonhibby]

Who?Is he the guy that used to work with Basil Brush?

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[One Day Soon]

Well he's not Jackie Baillie or Ian Murray or (god forbid) James Kelly. That's got to count for something. :greengrin


He is articulate, intelligent, understands policy, will be the first party leader in Scotland with an ethnic minority background (unless I forgot someone), is well liked, has political experience, gets on with Starmer and wants to win not just be politically pure. That's quite a step up for Labour in terms of recent leaders, if its him. With Jackie as his Deputy that looks like a decent ticket.

I expect the character assassination to commence quite quickly. It's the usual way, play the man not the ball.

[7 Up]

The Labour benches aren't exactly overflowing with talent are they? Monica Lennon is quite impressive but probably smart enough to stay away from the leadership job for now. Sarwar or Baillie would be uninspiring.

[Ozyhibby]

He is articulate, intelligent, understands policy, will be the first party leader in Scotland with an ethnic minority background (unless I forgot someone), is well liked, has political experience, gets on with Starmer and wants to win not just be politically pure. That's quite a step up for Labour in terms of recent leaders, if its him. With Jackie as his Deputy that looks like a decent ticket.

I expect the character assassination to commence quite quickly. It's the usual way, play the man not the ball.

Gets on well with Starmer just highlights it branch office status. Nobody worries if Sturgeon gets on with Blackford because if there was a problem it would be him that would be gone.


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[ronaldo7]

Gets on well with Starmer just highlights it branch office status. Nobody worries if Sturgeon gets on with Blackford because if there was a problem it would be him that would be gone.


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https://twitter.com/EleniCourea/status/1349767137666195461

Big party donors decided his fate, Ian the Jambo sat in silence.

It looks like the money which funded Starmer didn't much like Richard.

Scottish Labour, sold to the highest bidding donor.

[Smartie]

He is articulate, intelligent, understands policy, will be the first party leader in Scotland with an ethnic minority background (unless I forgot someone), is well liked, has political experience, gets on with Starmer and wants to win not just be politically pure. That's quite a step up for Labour in terms of recent leaders, if its him. With Jackie as his Deputy that looks like a decent ticket.

I expect the character assassination to commence quite quickly. It's the usual way, play the man not the ball.

Like Nicola Sturgeon I like Richard Leonard enough and without knowing anything about Sarwar I expect I'd like him too.

Rather than wishing to play the man - a man I have no reason to have any beef with, really - is it not just that the job he's been given with the ball is absolutely impossible to achieve right now?

Is there any need for a character assassination?

[degenerated]

The Labour benches aren't exactly overflowing with talent are they? Monica Lennon is quite impressive but probably smart enough to stay away from the leadership job for now. Sarwar or Baillie would be uninspiring.Has to be James Kellyhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210114/d1ea2d98e2de28f7458b614c3a2f7d02.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

Like Nicola Sturgeon I like Richard Leonard enough and without knowing anything about Sarwar I expect I'd like him too.

Rather than wishing to play the man - a man I have no reason to have any beef with, really - is it not just that the job he's been given with the ball is absolutely impossible to achieve right now?

Is there any need for a character assassination?

I think it’s fair to say that it’s an impossible job if you are committed to the union no matter how bad things are in Scotland and how right wing a government you are willing to see imposed on it. It’s also fair to say that he wasn’t very good either.


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[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1349828409095053321

UK Labour for the Millionaires not the Minions

[Mr Grieves]

He is articulate, intelligent, understands policy, will be the first party leader in Scotland with an ethnic minority background (unless I forgot someone), is well liked, has political experience, gets on with Starmer and wants to win not just be politically pure. That's quite a step up for Labour in terms of recent leaders, if its him. With Jackie as his Deputy that looks like a decent ticket.

I expect the character assassination to commence quite quickly. It's the usual way, play the man not the ball.

If he wants to win I guess he'll need to change Labour's position on a second indyref.

[RyeSloan]

I googled the Sarwar wage thing and here's his 'defence'...


'Asked if pay levels at the family firm undermined his credibility, he answered: “The difference is I don’t support a voluntary real living wage. I support a mandatory real living wage. I don’t think it’s right that the market dictates what a fair day’s pay is, and that’s why I want it to be a compulsory policy.” '
https://www.thenational.scot/news/15547846.labour-close-ranks-over-anas-sarwar-pay-scandal-by-banning-questions-at-hustings/


Obviously it would have been against his socialist principles to pay the employees a decent wage voluntarily.

I'm glad that's cleared up, then...

:rolleyes:

That’s genius, it really is!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210114/24b7e3179f82d9b16d099df9ba8d62f7.jpg
I’d be fascinated to hear Starmer list even one of these achievements. [emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Can we get Ignsh/Tornadoes back for 24 hours to get his analysis? Did we blink and miss the Richard Leonard utopia the poster promised?

Mon scottish labour is missing.

[weecounty hibby]

Neil Findlay is a knob but he is fairly putting the boot in. Claiming that Leonard has been ousted on the say so of millionaire donors to the Labour Party.

[G B Young]

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1349828409095053321

UK Labour for the Millionaires not the Minions

Considering their 'For the many not the few' mantra led Labour to their worst electoral defeat in a century I'm not surprised their backers want to see Starmer complete his purge of the Corbynites.

If Leonard had been doing a good job in reviving Labour's long-lost fortunes in Scotland I'd understand the grievance here, but after more than three years in post most of the electorate didn't even know who he was.

[Ozyhibby]

Considering their 'For the many not the few' mantra led Labour to their worst electoral defeat in a century I'm not surprised their backers want to see Starmer complete his purge of the Corbynites.

If Leonard had been doing a good job in reviving Labour's long-lost fortunes in Scotland I'd understand the grievance here, but after more than three years in post most of the electorate didn't even know who he was.

That Leonard was terrible is beyond doubt but it’s also true that it’s another leader that is going to be imposed on Scottish Labour from London. That is why people in Scotland have turned their back on the party.


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[Keith_M]

He is articulate, intelligent, understands policy, will be the first party leader in Scotland with an ethnic minority background (unless I forgot someone), is well liked, has political experience, gets on with Starmer and wants to win not just be politically pure. That's quite a step up for Labour in terms of recent leaders, if its him. With Jackie as his Deputy that looks like a decent ticket.

I expect the character assassination to commence quite quickly. It's the usual way, play the man not the ball.


Well, articulate would be an improvement.

I'm not sure the colour of his skin is relevant, but each to their own.

[lucky]

https://twitter.com/EleniCourea/status/1349767137666195461

Big party donors decided his fate, Ian the Jambo sat in silence.

It looks like the money which funded Starmer didn't much like Richard.

Scottish Labour, sold to the highest bidding donor.

Unfortunately this attempt at a exclusive by this journalist is rubbish and not close to what happened. The biggest lie is Gary Smith pulled support, he recently allowed the secondment of his most senior political officer to become acting General Secretary of the SLP. But no point in allowing the truth to get in the way of a non story

[lucky]

Neil Findlay is a knob but he is fairly putting the boot in. Claiming that Leonard has been ousted on the say so of millionaire donors to the Labour Party.

How’s Neil Findlay a knob? Do you know the guy? He’s stood up for working women and men in Parliament and has held the Scottish government to account on issues he believes in, justice for miners, mesh implants to name two. Not sure how he’s a knob because he’s not a supporter of independence

[G B Young]

That Leonard was terrible is beyond doubt but it’s also true that it’s another leader that is going to be imposed on Scottish Labour from London. That is why people in Scotland have turned their back on the party.


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Was Leonard not imposed on Scottish Labour from London (ie Corbyn)? Or am I missing your point?

[Ozyhibby]

Was Leonard not imposed on Scottish Labour from London (ie Corbyn)? Or am I missing your point?

No, your making my point. Labour leaders in Scotland are imposed from London. The minute the UK party went with Starmer, Leonard’s days were numbered. When they change direction, the Scottish party has to as well whether they like it or not.


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[G B Young]

No, your making my point. Labour leaders in Scotland are imposed from London. The minute the UK party went with Starmer, Leonard’s days were numbered. When they change direction, the Scottish party has to as well whether they like it or not.


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I get that, but the direction the party were going in pre-Starmer was even more disastrous electorally in Scotland than it was in England so a change of direction can hardly make things any worse for them.

Rather than debating the source of Leonard's appointment, Findlay's grievance/allegation seems to be that they've sacrificed a 'true Labour man' to the demands of their millionaire donors. Bearing in mind that for most of the UK population Tony Blair remains the only elected Labour leader in their lifetimes (enjoying, initially, phenomenal success in Scotland) and very much embraced the support of millionaire donors it's not really surprising Starmer seems to trying to chart a course back to what actually worked for them electorally.

[ronaldo7]

Unfortunately this attempt at a exclusive by this journalist is rubbish and not close to what happened. The biggest lie is Gary Smith pulled support, he recently allowed the secondment of his most senior political officer to become acting General Secretary of the SLP. But no point in allowing the truth to get in the way of a non story

I think the point that the Journo makes, is that it's not the members who actually elect their leader in Scotland, they may put a tick in a box when told who they can have, but it's London Labour who make the decisions with a couple of phone calls.

For the Millionaires not the Minions.

#Branchofficemanagerrequired

[weecounty hibby]

How’s Neil Findlay a knob? Do you know the guy? He’s stood up for working women and men in Parliament and has held the Scottish government to account on issues he believes in, justice for miners, mesh implants to name two. Not sure how he’s a knob because he’s not a supporter of independence
Have you seen some of the ridiculous things he has tweeted and had to apologise for. You can be both a knob and also do some good work. Of course I don't know him and please don't judge me on your standards. I didn't think he was a knob due to being anti independence. I don't think Leonard is a knob for example. Not very good at his job of leader but not a knob. From what I've seen of Findlay on twitter I think he is a knob.

[The Modfather]

How’s Neil Findlay a knob? Do you know the guy? He’s stood up for working women and men in Parliament and has held the Scottish government to account on issues he believes in, justice for miners, mesh implants to name two. Not sure how he’s a knob because he’s not a supporter of independence

To be fair, my one constituent interaction with him recently wasn’t a positive one. Did more to re-enforce my disdain for politicians than anything else. However, in the balance of fairness, other MSP’s of various parties were a positive experience, so it’s luck of the draw when it comes to MSP’s it seems.

[G B Young]

Well he's not Jackie Baillie or Ian Murray or (god forbid) James Kelly. That's got to count for something. :greengrin

I'm unclear what would be so awful about Ian Murray? Sure, the Jambo allegiance is an instant turn-off but as Labour's sole voice at Westminster from an otherwise barren Scottish landscape he must be doing something right. It's not as though he just manages to hold off the SNP in his constituency either - his winning margins at general elections have been massive.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm unclear what would be so awful about Ian Murray? Sure, the Jambo allegiance is an instant turn-off but as Labour's sole voice at Westminster from an otherwise barren Scottish landscape he must be doing something right. It's not as though he just manages to hold off the SNP in his constituency either - his winning margins at general elections have been massive.

His smarmy arrogance grates on me. Salmond was the same, so I don't think it's a partisan point. Maybe it's a Jambo thing?

[Pretty Boy]

I'm unclear what would be so awful about Ian Murray? Sure, the Jambo allegiance is an instant turn-off but as Labour's sole voice at Westminster from an otherwise barren Scottish landscape he must be doing something right. It's not as though he just manages to hold off the SNP in his constituency either - his winning margins at general elections have been massive.

I agree to an extent.

The daft Union Jack suits and some of his comments I find troublesome but he has remained consistently popular with his constituents and largely campaigns on his own performance as a constituency MP rather than really pushing the party (I'm sure at the election before last he didn't mention Labour once on his campaign material).

There seems to be a belief his constituency is made up of a demographic that are somehow predisposed to being 'yoons' but the reality is it's fairly diverse. Yes it includes Sciennes, Marchmont and a chunk of Morningside but it also covers Moredun, Gracemount and Burdiehouse.

It's far too easy to say he only gets votes because of Hearts or his stance on independence.

[hibsbollah]

I agree to an extent.

The daft Union Jack suits and some of his comments I find troublesome but he has remained consistently popular with his constituents and largely campaigns on his own performance as a constituency MP rather than really pushing the party (I'm sure at the election before last he didn't mention Labour once on his campaign material).

There seems to be a belief his constituency is made up of a demographic that are somehow predisposed to being 'yoons' but the reality is it's fairly diverse. Yes it includes Sciennes, Marchmont and a chunk of Morningside but it also covers Moredun, Gracemount and Burdiehouse.

It's far too easy to say he only gets votes because of Hearts or his stance on independence.

You just need to spend time talking to Labour canvassers or activists to know that Edinburgh Central and East (where the party tends to be younger and more progressive) has a totally different demographic to Edinburgh South. The emphasis here is almost solely on purging ‘the Left’ and on hammering the Nats. Whether that’s because of the local party make up or solely because of the views of Ian Murray himself I have no idea because I wouldn’t be interested in getting engaged enough to find out. What I do know for sure is that recipe isn’t going to be successful in other parts of Edinburgh just because he has a big majority here. Whenever I’ve had dealings with him personally he’s been abrasive defensive and he also seems to be a bit slow on the uptake. But he responds to constituents in a matter of minutes by email and in many ways he’s a full time operator, so he deserves credit for being hard working.

[SHODAN]

I'm unclear what would be so awful about Ian Murray? Sure, the Jambo allegiance is an instant turn-off but as Labour's sole voice at Westminster from an otherwise barren Scottish landscape he must be doing something right. It's not as though he just manages to hold off the SNP in his constituency either - his winning margins at general elections have been massive.

He's on the "Labour right", a thing which shouldn't even exist but somehow does. Utterly pointless politician.

[Ozyhibby]

He's on the "Labour right", a thing which shouldn't even exist but somehow does. Utterly pointless politician.

Murray could switch seamlessly into the Tory party no problem. He wouldn’t even be the most left wing in that party.


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[hibsbollah]

Murray could switch seamlessly into the Tory party no problem. He wouldn’t even be the most left wing in that party.


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That’s an interesting claim, and is probably true, but I have no idea. Interesting that I don’t know how right or left wing he is, because he rarely gets drawn on talking about ideology, or what kind of country he wants to live in, at all. You just have to form judgements on how left wing he is or isn’t based on which personalities he spends most of his time attacking. That’s probably just modern politics in general. Rashford is the only one doing ideology these days.

[lucky]

Murray could switch seamlessly into the Tory party no problem. He wouldn’t even be the most left wing in that party.


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Your basing that comment on what? Your generally a poster who’ll back up his comments but there have been increase in random comments always about non independent supporting politicians. Play the ball not the man

[Keith_M]

Your basing that comment on what? Your generally a poster who’ll back up his comments but there have been increase in random comments always about non independent supporting politicians. Play the ball not the man



Probably this photo...


:wink:



24242

[Future17]

That’s an interesting claim, and is probably true, but I have no idea. Interesting that I don’t know how right or left wing he is, because he rarely gets drawn on talking about ideology, or what kind of country he wants to live in, at all. You just have to form judgements on how left wing he is or isn’t based on which personalities he spends most of his time attacking. That’s probably just modern politics in general. Rashford is the only one doing ideology these days.

And even he is always switching from right-wing to left-wing and back again.

[Keith_M]

And even he is always switching from right-wing to left-wing and back again.


:greengrin

[Curried]

Your basing that comment on what? Your generally a poster who’ll back up his comments but there have been increase in random comments always about non independent supporting politicians. Play the ball not the man

Or this :wink:

https://twitter.com/robdunsmore/status/1214880739986161664?lang=en

[Keith_M]

Or this :wink:

https://twitter.com/robdunsmore/status/1214880739986161664?lang=en


Wow, that's amazing that he's basically setting them up for the Tories.

[CloudSquall]

"articulate"

https://mobile.twitter.com/fr4ser/status/1350077165199646720

[hibsbollah]

"articulate"

https://mobile.twitter.com/fr4ser/status/1350077165199646720

Well to be fair, Nicola’s just repeatedly shouting at him :greengrin
I’d probably respond ‘if you’d take the stick out your arse and shut the **** up for a second I might answer the question’ but that’s why I’m not standing for elected office...

[G B Young]

His smarmy arrogance grates on me. Salmond was the same, so I don't think it's a partisan point. Maybe it's a Jambo thing?

Smarmy arrogance certainly applies to Salmond - and indeed many Jambos. I haven't seen enough of Murray actually talking, so I don't know if I'd agree he's the same.

[G B Young]

He's on the "Labour right", a thing which shouldn't even exist but somehow does. Utterly pointless politician.

IIRC the Unite union, led by the odious Len McCluskey, attempted to oust Murray for criticising Corbyn and replace him with a 'politically pure' Labour candidate for the 2019 election. Their hopelessly out of touch tactics backfired and Unite were the only union not to back him in the selection ballot. If Corbyn & Co had had their way, Labour would almost certainly have had zero MPs in Scotland rather than just the one.

Rather than being pointless, it seems to me that being Labour's only MP in Scotland - and one who is clearly very popular with his constituents - counts for quite a lot.

[Ozyhibby]

https://capx.co/gordon-brown-has-one-more-task-in-politics-to-lead-scottish-labour-out-of-the-doldrums/

Is the future of Labour a man who will be 70 by the time the election comes round?


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[Keith_M]

https://capx.co/gordon-brown-has-one-more-task-in-politics-to-lead-scottish-labour-out-of-the-doldrums/

Is the future of Labour a man who will be 70 by the time the election comes round?


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Considering the ages of the current and next US Presidents, I wouldn't be at all surprised

[G B Young]

I agree to an extent.

The daft Union Jack suits and some of his comments I find troublesome but he has remained consistently popular with his constituents and largely campaigns on his own performance as a constituency MP rather than really pushing the party (I'm sure at the election before last he didn't mention Labour once on his campaign material).

There seems to be a belief his constituency is made up of a demographic that are somehow predisposed to being 'yoons' but the reality is it's fairly diverse. Yes it includes Sciennes, Marchmont and a chunk of Morningside but it also covers Moredun, Gracemount and Burdiehouse.

It's far too easy to say he only gets votes because of Hearts or his stance on independence.

That rings a bell. What I do know, and I think I mentioned it on here during the 2019 election campaign, is that when my sister who lives in his constituency told a couple of Murray's canvassers that Corbyn was putting her off voting Labour they told her not to worry, that Corbyn wasn't going to win and that she should just vote for Murray as the best candidate for Edinburgh South.

[G B Young]

https://capx.co/gordon-brown-has-one-more-task-in-politics-to-lead-scottish-labour-out-of-the-doldrums/

Is the future of Labour a man who will be 70 by the time the election comes round?


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They could only dream of getting somebody of that calibre. His age is irrelevant, but there's not a chance he would even consider it.

[Kato]

Smarmy arrogance certainly applies to Salmond - and indeed many Jambos. I haven't seen enough of Murray actually talking, so I don't know if I'd agree he's the same.

The only topics he seems to have expressed an opinion on is his dislike of the SNP and his idea that the "brave" Heart of Midlothian "bravely" staved off liquidation by "bravely" standing up to their greedy creditors.

[One Day Soon]

Quite enjoying some of the Nationalist reactions to all this, ranging from the utterly ill-informed through to the straight up lying.

As for praying in aid Neil Findlay's analysis of what is going on - :faf:

How much is Michelle Thomson's net worth these days? :wink:

[hibsbollah]

IIRC the Unite union, led by the odious Len McCluskey, attempted to oust Murray for criticising Corbyn and replace him with a 'politically pure' Labour candidate for the 2019 election. Their hopelessly out of touch tactics backfired and Unite were the only union not to back him in the selection ballot. If Corbyn & Co had had their way, Labour would almost certainly have had zero MPs in Scotland rather than just the one.

Rather than being pointless, it seems to me that being Labour's only MP in Scotland - and one who is clearly very popular with his constituents - counts for quite a lot.

By 'hopelessly out of touch tactics' do you mean 'local democracy'? Theres nothing 'odious' about that, its just preferring another candidate.
The union triggered an election to confirm Murray as candidate, which they are entitled to do, which Murray then won. You're presenting it like some sort of coup attempt.

[One Day Soon]

Your basing that comment on what? Your generally a poster who’ll back up his comments but there have been increase in random comments always about non independent supporting politicians. Play the ball not the man


Ian Murray was brought up in Wester Hailes by his mother after his father died when he was nine. Unlike many of his very comfortably off critical commentators living in affluent middle class security and who have never known a day's serious hardship in their lives he has lived experience of what its like to be at the sharp end. He didn't wander into the Labour Party by accident and there isn't a cat in hell's chance that he would ever join the Tories or be comfortable in that party.

You may not like his politics, his position on independence, his football team or his patter - but suggesting he is a Tory or would be at home with their ideology is just utter pish.

[One Day Soon]

By 'hopelessly out of touch tactics' do you mean 'local democracy'? Theres nothing 'odious' about that, its just preferring another candidate.
The union triggered an election to confirm Murray as candidate, which they are entitled to do, which Murray then won. You're presenting it like some sort of coup attempt.


Coup implies lacking legitimacy in process, which this wasn't. It was more of a deselection attempt, just a really ***** one. And using the existing appropriate procedures of course.

[hibsbollah]

Coup implies lacking legitimacy in process, which this wasn't. It was more of a deselection attempt, just a really ***** one. And using the existing appropriate procedures of course.

Agreed. Although I’d add that all elections are ‘deselection attempts’ in a way:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Ian Murray was brought up in Wester Hailes by his mother after his father died when he was nine. Unlike many of his very comfortably off critical commentators living in affluent middle class security and who have never known a day's serious hardship in their lives he has lived experience of what its like to be at the sharp end. He didn't wander into the Labour Party by accident and there isn't a cat in hell's chance that he would ever join the Tories or be comfortable in that party.

You may not like his politics, his position on independence, his football team or his patter - but suggesting he is a Tory or would be at home with their ideology is just utter pish.

I was also brought up by a single mother from the age of 2, including a couple of years in wester hailes. Are you telling me that I've been voting for the wrong party all my life? 🤔😉

[greenlex]

And even he is always switching from right-wing to left-wing and back again.
Maybe he means Marcus?

[StevieC]

I was also brought up by a single mother from the age of 2, including a couple of years in wester hailes. Are you telling me that I've been voting for the wrong party all my life? 🤔😉

Similar situation with me, although I did my two years in Broomhouse.
Missed out on voting when I was able, due to a bit of poll tax dodging, but Edinburgh West was safe Tory territory (Lord Douglas-Hamilton for as long as I could remember) so would have been a wasted vote anyway.

[Santa Cruz]

I was also brought up by a single mother from the age of 2, including a couple of years in wester hailes. Are you telling me that I've been voting for the wrong party all my life? 🤔😉

Apart from Independence, I don't really see that much difference in Labour and SNP policies/political views.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ian Murray was brought up in Wester Hailes by his mother after his father died when he was nine. Unlike many of his very comfortably off critical commentators living in affluent middle class security and who have never known a day's serious hardship in their lives he has lived experience of what its like to be at the sharp end. He didn't wander into the Labour Party by accident and there isn't a cat in hell's chance that he would ever join the Tories or be comfortable in that party.

You may not like his politics, his position on independence, his football team or his patter - but suggesting he is a Tory or would be at home with their ideology is just utter pish.

I was brought up in sunny leith and times could be tough for my neighbours. But people around were so mixed, inspiring socialist from the docks, proud immigrants, or blairite half tories like that smegma were brought up around me too