The future of the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/19/keir-starmer-i-will-abolish-house-of-lords-to-restore-trust-in-politics

Starmer to Abolish House of Lords.

It’s a shock to the system these days when there’s political developments that I approve of, need to see some details but **** me that’s a positive bolt from the blue.

Surely we are not falling for that one again?[emoji102][emoji849][emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/19/keir-starmer-i-will-abolish-house-of-lords-to-restore-trust-in-politics

Starmer to Abolish House of Lords.

It’s a shock to the system these days when there’s political developments that I approve of, need to see some details but **** me that’s a positive bolt from the blue.

There is a huge amount I dislike about Starmer. But nationalising railways, creating national energy supplier and creating a elected second chamber, are huge departures from the tories of the last 12 years

[Moulin Yarns]

There is a huge amount I dislike about Starmer. But nationalising railways, creating national energy supplier and creating a elected second chamber, are huge departures from the tories of the last 12 years

Would you like to check when labour first said they would abolish the house of Lords and wonder whether it is likely to happen.

[Bostonhibby]

Would you like to check when labour first said they would abolish the house of Lords and wonder whether it is likely to happen.[emoji106] Nail, hammer, heid.

There's just a chance he might be aiming to do something socialist that wins back the more left of centre though.....

I think I said I'd eat my hat the last time labour were in power and this was a policy but I ain't going out to get a hat yet.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Would you like to check when labour first said they would abolish the house of Lords and wonder whether it is likely to happen.

They have only had dodgy brown and Blair in power since the 70s. They were pretty dodgy establishment figures but they still cut hereditary peers from 600 to under 100, although they had to fight for that. Brown tried to go further but was defeated. Both turned down the chance to add a resignation honours list

What they have promised in opposition is immaterial. If Starmer puts it in his manifesto I'll be pleased, surely everyone bar tories will be too

[Moulin Yarns]

They have only had dodgy brown and Blair in power since the 70s. They were pretty dodgy establishment figures but they still cut hereditary peers from 600 to under 100, although they had to fight for that. Brown tried to go further but was defeated. Both turned down the chance to add a resignation honours list

What they have promised in opposition is immaterial. If Starmer puts it in his manifesto I'll be pleased, surely everyone bar tories will be too

In 1935, Labour stood on a platform to abolish the house of Lords, they have been promising it for almost a century!!!!

[Stairway 2 7]

In 1935, Labour stood on a platform to abolish the house of Lords, they have been promising it for almost a century!!!!

😆 🤣 calm down using stuff from before the war. Many in the snp were to close to the Tories decades ago but only nutters use it against the current party. There's been one labour government in my life and the did a decent bit to change the Lords, brown tried to go further but was bombed out. All the rest tory governments.

If Starmer has it in his manifesto then it's a good thing and I generally dislike him

[Hibbyradge]

😆 🤣 calm down using stuff from before the war. Many in the snp were to close to the Tories decades ago but only nutters use it against the current party.

And folk who enjoy a bit of sport. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

😆 🤣 calm down using stuff from before the war. Many in the snp were to close to the Tories decades ago but only nutters use it against the current party. There's been one labour government in my life and the did a decent bit to change the Lords, brown tried to go further but was bombed out. All the rest tory governments.

If Starmer has it in his manifesto then it's a good thing and I generally dislike him

I was only pointing out, what I asked you to check!

Dinnae get your knickers in a twist. Almost 100 years, and still no progress.

[Glory Lurker]

Has he told his donors in the Lords this???

Nae chance. Easy to spraff that stuff two years out from a GE.

[Stairway 2 7]

I was only pointing out, what I asked you to check!

Dinnae get your knickers in a twist. Almost 100 years, and still no progress.

The only progress in my life was when labour cut unelected hereditary peers down from 600 to 70. Gordon brown wanted to go further then lost. I'd rather a party in that tries to do something. Starmer has nothing to do with the party of the 70s, nor 12 years ago really. If he manages it then he'll get my praise.

[archie]

I was only pointing out, what I asked you to check!

Dinnae get your knickers in a twist. Almost 100 years, and still no progress.In the 1980s factions of the SNP opposed the Pope's visit to Scotland. That was only 40 years ago. But I don't think that reflects on the SNP today.

[He's here!]

President of unison expelled from the labour party. Starmers lurch to the right continues.

The President of the biggest union in the UK, Unison, has been expelled from the Labour party.

Andrea Egan, elected as Unison’s president in June 2022 by the union’s national executive council (NEC), said: “I’ve given over a decade to the Labour Party. It’s devastating.”

“As the President of Unison, my message to our 1.3 million members has always been around unity. Now, what message can I give to members when they’ve kicked me out?”

In a letter sent to Egan on 15 November by the Labour party disputes team, the NEC Panel stated that Egan’s membership termination is a result of her having shared two articles from Socialist Appeal – a Marxist group within the party – on social media.

On July 20 2021, the Labour Party NEC voted to proscribe Socialist Appeal. A Labour spokesperson said: “These organisations are not compatible with Labour’s rules or our aims and values.”

The first occasion on which Egan shared a Socialist Appeal article was 16 July, prior to the organisation’s official ban by the Labour party . The article related to the Socialist Appeal’s potential proscription. Egan shared it with the comment, “who’s next.”

The second article shared by Egan related directly to Unison and to Egan’s election to the union’s NEC, titled: Unison: Left activists begin the struggle to transform the union.

Are they really 'lurching to the right'? Seems to me they are (quite understandably) simply trying to undo the damage done by Corbyn (and to some extent Milliband who enabled the Corbyn fiasco) and reclaim the terrain occupied by Blair and Brown.

What Starmer is doing is nothing new. It was Kinnock who paved the way for New Labour when he faced down Militant. That party conference speech which the despicable Derek Hatton tried to shout down was his finest moment IMHO. It's called trying to make Labour electable.

[Stairway 2 7]

Are they really 'lurching to the right'? Seems to me they are (quite understandably) simply trying to undo the damage done by Corbyn (and to some extent Milliband who enabled the Corbyn fiasco) and reclaim the terrain occupied by Blair and Brown.

What Starmer is doing is nothing new. It was Kinnock who paved the way for New Labour when he faced down Militant. That party conference speech which the despicable Derek Hatton tried to shout down was his finest moment IMHO. It's called trying to make Labour electable.

A great post for independence. Your politics seem very centre. Scotland is more left wing than England. For many including myself, if you're only choice in life is right wing tories or centre Labour, were better of out

[Pretty Boy]

You can't just absolish the Lords overnight without a plan in place for what comes next. It plays a crucial role in scrutinising legislation. Getting the topic back on the table is the 1st step. Reform or abolition will take several years and rightly so.

Obviously the Labour govt of 1997 onwards failed to abolish the Lords but there was clear progress in changing it's nature. A huge reduction in hereditary peerages and they removed the power of the upper chamber to block huge swathes of legislation albeit they could still enact a time delay. There were several votes in both Houses on the future of the Lords and at least 2 full public consultations (which saw a tiny number of responses suggesting it's not a hot topic for the layman on the street).

I think it's important not to conflate dislike of the nature of the Lords with dislike of it's function. In a democracy that regularly produces majority governments an upper house is essential. It has to robustly challenge legislation and send back poor legislation for further amendment and debate. Leaving a vacuum or something even more imperfect than the current set up would be a dangerous game.

[archie]

A great post for independence. Your politics seem very centre. Scotland is more left wing than England. For many including myself, if you're only choice in life is right wing tories or centre Labour, were better of out
Your assumption is that politicians once elected can do what they like. Liz Truss's dismal premiership is a prime example of the gap between ambition and reality.

[archie]

You can't just absolish the Lords overnight without a plan in place for what comes next. It plays a crucial role in scrutinising legislation. Getting the topic back on the table is the 1st step. Reform or abolition will take several years and rightly so.

Obviously the Labour govt of 1997 onwards failed to abolish the Lords but there was clear progress in changing it's nature. A huge reduction in hereditary peerages and they removed the power of the upper chamber to block huge swathes of legislation albeit they could still enact a time delay. There were several votes in both Houses on the future of the Lords and at least 2 full public consultations (which saw a tiny number of responses suggesting it's not a hot topic for the layman on the street).

I think it's important not to conflate dislike of the nature of the Lords with dislike of it's function. In a democracy that regularly produces majority governments an upper house is essential. It has to robustly challenge legislation and send back poor legislation for further amendment and debate. Leaving a vacuum or something even more imperfect than the current set up would be a dangerous game.Spot on. It's a real issue at Holyrood. The Committee system was meant to do this, but isn't working.

[Ozyhibby]

You can't just absolish the Lords overnight without a plan in place for what comes next. It plays a crucial role in scrutinising legislation. Getting the topic back on the table is the 1st step. Reform or abolition will take several years and rightly so.

Obviously the Labour govt of 1997 onwards failed to abolish the Lords but there was clear progress in changing it's nature. A huge reduction in hereditary peerages and they removed the power of the upper chamber to block huge swathes of legislation albeit they could still enact a time delay. There were several votes in both Houses on the future of the Lords and at least 2 full public consultations (which saw a tiny number of responses suggesting it's not a hot topic for the layman on the street).

I think it's important not to conflate dislike of the nature of the Lords with dislike of it's function. In a democracy that regularly produces majority governments an upper house is essential. It has to robustly challenge legislation and send back poor legislation for further amendment and debate. Leaving a vacuum or something even more imperfect than the current set up would be a dangerous game.

I don’t think there is any opposition to a 2nd chamber as such. It’s the unelected bit that is an insult.
He needs to come out now and say what he’ll replace it with or has it been kicked into the long grass along with Brown’s report on the union?
Labour could kill off Indy if they gave Scotland full autonomy while sharing defence, foreign policy etc. What isn’t clear is if they care enough to do it.


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[He's here!]

A great post for independence. Your politics seem very centre. Scotland is more left wing than England. For many including myself, if you're only choice in life is right wing tories or centre Labour, were better of out

My point had nothing to do with independence. I'm just pointing out that Starmer's doing his best to return Labour to where they enjoyed their greatest and most sustained success. He may be throwing a few more Union Jacks into the mix, but then Blair very much embraced the prevailing 'Cool Britannia' era. Starmer's biggest difficulty is that he lacks any of Blair's charisma.

Incidentally, 'centre Labour' swept the Tories out of Scotland. Post-Blair/Brown under more left-leaning (and inept) leadership they've spent most of those years with just a single MP north of the border. Their direction of travel seems obvious and should they return to power in a couple of years (as seems all but inevitable) I'll be surprised if we don't see a significant upturn in their Scottish fortunes.

[He's here!]

Spot on. It's a real issue at Holyrood. The Committee system was meant to do this, but isn't working.

Good point.

[ronaldo7]

Are they really 'lurching to the right'? Seems to me they are (quite understandably) simply trying to undo the damage done by Corbyn (and to some extent Milliband who enabled the Corbyn fiasco) and reclaim the terrain occupied by Blair and Brown.

What Starmer is doing is nothing new. It was Kinnock who paved the way for New Labour when he faced down Militant. That party conference speech which the despicable Derek Hatton tried to shout down was his finest moment IMHO. It's called trying to make Labour electable.

From where they were when starmer was a full throated supporter of Corbyn, then yes, they're lurching to the right. Im sure you'll still think of them as the militant tendency though. 😂

[He's here!]

From where they were when starmer was a full throated supporter of Corbyn, then yes, they're lurching to the right. Im sure you'll still think of them as the militant tendency though. 😂

Not sure why you'd be sure of that if you've read my posts. I'm fully in favour of what Labour are trying to do. I just find Starmer hard to warm to and, as you say, his credibility is questionable bearing in mind he was a one-time Corbyn allly and was also a 'stop Brexit' cheerleader.

[ronaldo7]

Not sure why you'd be sure of that if you've read my posts. I'm fully in favour of what Labour are trying to do. I just find Starmer hard to warm to and, as you say, his credibility is questionable bearing in mind he was a one-time Corbyn allly and was also a 'stop Brexit' cheerleader.

Sorry about that. I have read your posts and had you down as a daily mail reading tory.

Apologies.

[hibsbollah]

Not sure why you'd be sure of that if you've read my posts. I'm fully in favour of what Labour are trying to do. I just find Starmer hard to warm to and, as you say, his credibility is questionable bearing in mind he was a one-time Corbyn allly and was also a 'stop Brexit' cheerleader.

You left out the most obvious dent to his credibility, the whole 'Won the Leadership on a Corbyn Policies without Corbyn' platform and then has dumped those policies one by one. Which shows Corbyn the individual wasnt really the issue, as much as you love to obsess about this cartoon evil allotment keeper. Policies like increase funding for a free at the point of use NHS, Nationalisation of key industries, tax the wealthy and radical green policies will Not Be Allowed by the UK establishment. If they aren't trying to do these kinds of things to change society there is literally no point to the Labour Party, no matter how many right wing people like you are 'in favour' of what Labour are 'trying to do'.

[archie]

You left out the most obvious dent to his credibility, the whole 'Won the Leadership on a Corbyn Policies without Corbyn' platform and then has dumped those policies one by one. Which shows Corbyn the individual wasnt really the issue, as much as you love to obsess about this cartoon evil allotment keeper. Policies like increase funding for a free at the point of use NHS, Nationalisation of key industries, tax the wealthy and radical green policies will Not Be Allowed by the UK establishment. If they aren't trying to do these kinds of things to change society there is literally no point to the Labour Party, no matter how many right wing people like you are 'in favour' of what Labour are 'trying to do'.Just out of interest, do you support Corbyn's position on Ukraine?

[hibsbollah]

Just out of interest, do you support Corbyn's position on Ukraine?

No, I think we need to keep arming Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. But I also think his true position was deliberately misconstrued by the media. 'pouring arms into Ukraine isnt going to bring about a solution' was one sentence of a much more nuanced speech. But you are not allowed to think two things at once in todays nuance-less world, and the Ukraine situation is no different (NATOs behaviour post Berlin Wall coming down contributed to the current disastrous state of Western-Russian relations, that DOES NOT mean you cant also believe Russia is the aggressor and should be stopped as a priority). I believe this is also Corbyns position.

[archie]

You left out the most obvious dent to his credibility, the whole 'Won the Leadership on a Corbyn Policies without Corbyn' platform and then has dumped those policies one by one. Which shows Corbyn the individual wasnt really the issue, as much as you love to obsess about this cartoon evil allotment keeper. Policies like increase funding for a free at the point of use NHS, Nationalisation of key industries, tax the wealthy and radical green policies will Not Be Allowed by the UK establishment. If they aren't trying to do these kinds of things to change society there is literally no point to the Labour Party, no matter how many right wing people like you are 'in favour' of what Labour are 'trying to do'.Have you ever considered that these policies might not be popular with the British (or indeed Scottish) people?

[He's here!]

You left out the most obvious dent to his credibility, the whole 'Won the Leadership on a Corbyn Policies without Corbyn' platform and then has dumped those policies one by one. Which shows Corbyn the individual wasnt really the issue, as much as you love to obsess about this cartoon evil allotment keeper. Policies like increase funding for a free at the point of use NHS, Nationalisation of key industries, tax the wealthy and radical green policies will Not Be Allowed by the UK establishment. If they aren't trying to do these kinds of things to change society there is literally no point to the Labour Party, no matter how many right wing people like you are 'in favour' of what Labour are 'trying to do'.

Backing a Labour move back towards the centre ground and hence electability isn't a 'right wing' viewpoint.

FWIW I believe the roots of their lengthy wilderness years post-Blair/Brown can be traced back to electing the wrong Milliband as leader over a decade ago. I still find it hard to believe they made such a blunder. Had they not done so I reckon they'd be in power today.

[He's here!]

Have you ever considered that these policies might not be popular with the British (or indeed Scottish) people?

Power v principles. Always a problem for Labour.

[hibsbollah]

Have you ever considered that these policies might not be popular with the British (or indeed Scottish) people?

Polling shows just the opposite. People don’t vote for the policies they say they want. It’s a matter of presentation and message.

[Keith_M]

I personally think Labour will stroll the next election.

Not so much because of what they stand for, or any particular policies, but more because large swathes of the voting public are now sick of the Tories. The situation now feels very similar to the mid 90's when the Tory party had gone through a long run of scandals and embarrassments.

Labour were finally elected in 1997, with an extremely large majority in parliament. Circa 13.5 million people voted Labour.... roughly 500,000 less than voted for the John Major lead Conservative's in 1992.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-has-praised-keir-starmers-speech-on-immigration_uk_637cab17e4b0e771d958131a?d_id=51836 07&ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main

Can’t blame Starmer. It’s how you win down south. Sarwar must be so proud.


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[grunt]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-has-praised-keir-starmers-speech-on-immigration_uk_637cab17e4b0e771d958131a?d_id=51836 07&ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main


To what extent are the Labour supporting posters on here happy with the Starmer speech to the CBI this morning?

And how applicable / relevant do you think it is to Scotland?

[Smartie]

I just cannot fathom how any Scot can read this sort of level of debate and want to remain part of the Union.

It's just vile.

They're all vile - Labour, Tories, Farage, the lot.

[He's here!]

That's quite the spin Farage has put on it.

Much to agree with if you read a more objective report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941

[grunt]

That's quite the spin Farage has put on it.

Much to agree with if you read a more objective report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941So you think this policy should apply in Scotland?

[Jones28]

That's quite the spin Farage has put on it.

Much to agree with if you read a more objective report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941

It’s all well and good saying that SurKeir, training our own people makes a lot of sense and should be something we pursue.

It doesn’t explain how they’re going to fill the gaps in the low skill labour market though.

Thousands of tons of losses in fruit and veg production, abattoirs short staffed and unable to process, farms slaughtering their own livestock without anywhere for it to go, so it has to be buried.

We need labour of ALL levels in this country, not just doctors and vets.

[neil7908]

That's quite the spin Farage has put on it.

Much to agree with if you read a more objective report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941

I get what he is saying but he's just a long, long line of politicians who say the popular, easy stuff on immigration as confronting the reality is much harder (a bit like Brexit).

We have been hearing for how long about getting immigration down and yet it doesn't happen. Why? Because its critical to our economy. Just listen to almost any employer now - they can't find staff. Especially for lower paying jobs. I completely agree with the sentiment of what Starmer is saying but to make some of these jobs attractive would mean considerable pay increasing - and he obviously doesn't want that given his current union stance.

So as always with him, I'm not sure what he actually wants. Every time he speaks I just see someone signalling to red wall Tories and stuff the rest of us.

We either need to accept immigration is part of a vibrant economy (Canada is looking to accept 500k people a year for the next 3 years, Australia announced an increase to their in take this year as well) or we make profound, radical changes to things like the minimum wage, workers rights etc. And I don't think Sir Keir seems interested in that.

Let's be honest, Brexit was really about immigration for a large, large number of voters. Well we've got it 'done' and where are we? Still seeing lots of people come in and the economy in the toilet compared to others that have a lot more open immigration policies. We need to confront realities on both immigration and Brexit but Labour have shown zero interest in doing that.

[He's here!]

It’s all well and good saying that SurKeir, training our own people makes a lot of sense and should be something we pursue.

It doesn’t explain how they’re going to fill the gaps in the low skill labour market though.

Thousands of tons of losses in fruit and veg production, abattoirs short staffed and unable to process, farms slaughtering their own livestock without anywhere for it to go, so it has to be buried.

We need labour of ALL levels in this country, not just doctors and vets.

He's not calling for his to happen overnight. He wants training rolled out to enhance the low skill market. It's the right route to go down surely?

As for the here and now there's an annual lost workforce of kids and students on their summer holidays who seem to think fruit picking/working in their holidays is beneath them. I did it for about six straight summers in England and Scotland when I was growing up and still do do when I get a chance. Baffles me that we seem to regard this work as the preserve of imported labour these days. Great way to earn extra cash in a healthy outdoor environment.

[hibsbollah]

He's not calling for his to happen overnight. He wants training rolled out to enhance the low skill market. It's the right route to go down surely?

As for the here and now there's an annual lost workforce of kids and students on their summer holidays who seem to think fruit picking/working in their holidays is beneath them. I did it for about six straight summers in England and Scotland when I was growing up and still do do when I get a chance. Baffles me that we seem to regard this work as the preserve of imported labour these days. Great way to earn extra cash in a healthy outdoor environment.

There aren’t the numbers of U.K. young people entering the jobs market to fill the vacancies that are appearing, not even close. They’re in education, or already holding down two jobs, or caring for ill relatives, or ill themselves. The idea that there are all these young British people too lazy to work is utter manure and insulting. Starmer knows that, so although in principle it’s a good idea, it just isn’t going to work, so just begs the question, why raise a false flag? And the answer is obvious. Avoid the real issue, Brexit, at all cost, and use some UKIP buzzwords to attract that demographic instead.

[Jones28]

He's not calling for his to happen overnight. He wants training rolled out to enhance the low skill market. It's the right route to go down surely?

As for the here and now there's an annual lost workforce of kids and students on their summer holidays who seem to think fruit picking/working in their holidays is beneath them. I did it for about six straight summers in England and Scotland when I was growing up and still do do when I get a chance. Baffles me that we seem to regard this work as the preserve of imported labour these days. Great way to earn extra cash in a healthy outdoor environment.

It baffles me that people still have this “well I did it when I was young” attitude. Do we never learn? British kids and people aren’t interested in this kind of work. It’s to laborious and often involves residential set ups that aren’t conducive to normal lives. They would be perfect jobs for students but often students work in pubs/shops or in my experience in Shetland lots of seasonal jobs/jobs left open for the summer influx of students are preferential to spending summer holidays in a caravan working 12/14 hours shifts.

Unless the wages become obscene and the price of something as simple as a strawberry becomes a luxury item we need foreign labour in agriculture and loads of other areas of the food chain.

[ronaldo7]

To what extent are the Labour supporting posters on here happy with the Starmer speech to the CBI this morning?

And how applicable / relevant do you think it is to Scotland?

I did say they are lurching to the right, but when you get Farage onside you must be doing it wrong.

The Labour Brexit party who won't countenance going into the single market will have the kippers swarming for the application forms.

[grunt]

He's not calling for his to happen overnight. He wants training rolled out to enhance the low skill market. It's the right route to go down surely?
No, because it will never work.

I see now why Labour only have 1 MP in Scotland.

[neil7908]

He's not calling for his to happen overnight. He wants training rolled out to enhance the low skill market. It's the right route to go down surely?

As for the here and now there's an annual lost workforce of kids and students on their summer holidays who seem to think fruit picking/working in their holidays is beneath them. I did it for about six straight summers in England and Scotland when I was growing up and still do do when I get a chance. Baffles me that we seem to regard this work as the preserve of imported labour these days. Great way to earn extra cash in a healthy outdoor environment.

With all respect though, is training the issue for lower paying jobs? Do people not want to work in retail, fast food etc because they don't have the training?

That's simply not the case. It's because the wages paid are not possible to live on, contracts are insecure etc.

The training thing is just Starmer continuing to peddle myths around a controversial issue.

Wages need to grow big time at the lower end but he has no interest in that, therefore the problem won't get solved unless we bring in foreign workers.

As I've said above, look at what Canada and Australia are doing and compare how their economies are expected to look in the years ahead compared to ours.

Unfortunately Keir has not interest making serious changes or having an honest conversation on things like immigration and Brexit. Better for him to keep sounding like a Tory, but with a couple of sound bites to try and create some distance, whilst not actually being clear on what he'd do differently.

[He's here!]

It baffles me that people still have this “well I did it when I was young” attitude. Do we never learn? British kids and people aren’t interested in this kind of work. It’s to laborious and often involves residential set ups that aren’t conducive to normal lives. They would be perfect jobs for students but often students work in pubs/shops or in my experience in Shetland lots of seasonal jobs/jobs left open for the summer influx of students are preferential to spending summer holidays in a caravan working 12/14 hours shifts.

Unless the wages become obscene and the price of something as simple as a strawberry becomes a luxury item we need foreign labour in agriculture and loads of other areas of the food chain.

'It's too laborious for British people'?

[Jones28]

'It's too laborious for British people'?

They don’t want to do it. British people in general don’t want to do the work because it’s too labour intensive.

[wookie70]

They don’t want to do it. British people in general don’t want to do the work because it’s too labour intensive.

Or there are jobs that offer better conditions without the physical exertion or harsh working environment. My best mate worked on the roofs as a slater. He gave it up for a less skilled job that was better paid and mostly inside. His skill, combined with poor pay led to a change of career. No different to the low paid jobs, outside and with huge manual effort required albeit he was a time served and respected tradesman. The whole of the UK is a complete mess when it comes to recompense for work. Many jobs are underpaid and many are overpaid and there appears to be little sense on how different roles are valued. If you can't get fruit pickers for teh money offered you have to stop growing fruit, grow it more efficiently, automate or charge more so you can pay more. that is the wonders of capitalism and closing our borders only makes the pool of workers smaller.

[hibsbollah]

'It's too laborious for British people'?

Are you familiar with the concept of productivity? And what would happen to the U.K. economy if we started prioritising non academic school leavers to go into fruit picking? It’s the kind of idiot economics that gave us Brexit with a bow on top.

[Jones28]

Or there are jobs that offer better conditions without the physical exertion or harsh working environment. My best mate worked on the roofs as a slater. He gave it up for a less skilled job that was better paid and mostly inside. His skill, combined with poor pay led to a change of career. No different to the low paid jobs, outside and with huge manual effort required albeit he was a time served and respected tradesman. The whole of the UK is a complete mess when it comes to recompense for work. Many jobs are underpaid and many are overpaid and there appears to be little sense on how different roles are valued. If you can't get fruit pickers for teh money offered you have to stop growing fruit, grow it more efficiently, automate or charge more so you can pay more. that is the wonders of capitalism and closing our borders only makes the pool of workers smaller.

Much better put than I could have.

However we had large numbers of migrant workers who were happy to do it and would return year on year. Until we decided that having affordable food was something we no longer needed.

[JeMeSouviens]

'It's too laborious for British people'?

In a word, yes. If you want a successful, growing economy then you want as many high skilled, productive youngsters as possible. Not have them scraping by with low skilled seasonal jobs.

Starmer's low skilled Brits and high skilled immigrants seems exactly the wrong way round.

[He's here!]

Are you familiar with the concept of productivity? And what would happen to the U.K. economy if we started prioritising non academic school leavers to go into fruit picking? It’s the kind of idiot economics that gave us Brexit with a bow on top.

Folk are picking me up wrong on this. I'm not advocating a round-up of every unqualified school leaver, jobless person or plain lazy-assed slacker to pick fruit. Just expressing surprise that it seems accepted that such jobs are simply too arduous for 'British' people. Without wishing to come across all 'in my day' I didn't do well at school but don't regard myself as unintelligent. For several summers I worked across the UK and France picking fruit and it was a brilliant time, most notably in the cider apple orchards of Herefordshire. There were fellow pickers of all nationalities (in particular Irish) and while the work could be hard I got a lot out of the experience and would recommend it.

Re the wider picture I find it hard to fathom why when unemployment is at a record low we have over 5 million people (effectively the population of Scotland) on some form of out of work benefits. Couple that with record immigration levels and somethings askew when so many jobs can't be filled. Is this a post-Covid hangover?

[grunt]

For several summers I worked across the UK and France picking fruit and it was a brilliant time, most notably in the cider apple orchards of Herefordshire. There were fellow pickers of all nationalities (in particular Irish) and while the work could be hard I got a lot out of the experience and would recommend it.
So why are you denying this experience to students and others from other countries?

[He's here!]

So why are you denying this experience to students and others from other countries?

Where did I say that?

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63743259

1 million migrants absorbed into the UK, 1.2 million job vacancies and 5.2 million on out of work benefits. This doesn't seem like the post-Brexit plan.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63743259

1 million migrants absorbed into the UK, 1.2 million job vacancies and 5.2 million on out of work benefits. This doesn't seem like the post-Brexit plan.

Are you sure? That figure would suggest it includes in work benefit claimants as in universal credit (happy to be corrected).

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you sure? That figure would suggest it includes in work benefit claimants as in universal credit (happy to be corrected).

No that's includes only out of work universal credit claimants. There was an explosion of job losses during covid and the recovery is pretty slow so far
26300

[Santa Cruz]

No that's includes only out of work universal credit claimants. There was an explosion of job losses during covid and the recovery is pretty slow so far
26300

My mistake. Thought unemployment figures were at a record low, assumed wrongly.:aok:

[Stairway 2 7]

My mistake. Thought unemployment figures were at a record low, assumed wrongly.:aok:

I think it's tory spin. Unemployment low, but people out of work huge. Putting people from one column to another

[Jones28]

Folk are picking me up wrong on this. I'm not advocating a round-up of every unqualified school leaver, jobless person or plain lazy-assed slacker to pick fruit. Just expressing surprise that it seems accepted that such jobs are simply too arduous for 'British' people. Without wishing to come across all 'in my day' I didn't do well at school but don't regard myself as unintelligent. For several summers I worked across the UK and France picking fruit and it was a brilliant time, most notably in the cider apple orchards of Herefordshire. There were fellow pickers of all nationalities (in particular Irish) and while the work could be hard I got a lot out of the experience and would recommend it.

Re the wider picture I find it hard to fathom why when unemployment is at a record low we have over 5 million people (effectively the population of Scotland) on some form of out of work benefits. Couple that with record immigration levels and somethings askew when so many jobs can't be filled. Is this a post-Covid hangover?

I dont want you to take this personally, but in the example you site from your younger days am I reading right that British people weren't even the majority? Which would suggest that this phenomenon is not a new thing.

I've worked in agriculture for nearly 15 years and I can assure you that the industry is propped up by foreign labour because local people don't want to do the work, it's too arduous or the money isn't good enough or it's a combination of both. I don't condone low pay, I left farm working because the pay was not good enough, but it's not buttons being offered. It is not a dreadful salary on offer, but people can make similar money in warm pubs, or more money working for supermarkets - who are the main reason agriculture is such a low wage industry.

[grunt]

Where did I say that?You want more British students to work on British farms, thus reducing opportunities for overseas students to come here and gain the benefits you enjoyed. You seem to be happy that overseas students are now not coming here to pick fruit.

[grunt]

Re the wider picture I find it hard to fathom why when unemployment is at a record low we have over 5 million people (effectively the population of Scotland) on some form of out of work benefits. Couple that with record immigration levels and somethings askew when so many jobs can't be filled. Is this a post-Covid hangover?This is the language of John Redwood and the rest of the loons on the ERG far-right wing of the Tory party. It's obviously a lot more complex than looking at headline figures; this leads to calls to introduce work-for-benefits legislation. Is that what you want?

[Stairway 2 7]

You want more British students to work on British farms, thus reducing opportunities for overseas students to come here and gain the benefits you enjoyed. You seem to be happy that overseas students are now not coming here to pick fruit.

Record numbers of overseas students came last year they account for 150k of the half a million net immigration last year. Biggest increase is from China. Coming from the Chinese Upper class and paying 15k a year for study, sometimes the same again in accommodation. They certainly won't be doing fruit picking.

Might have been something European students did if they had free tuition, but erasmus collapsing due to brexit has killed that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Record numbers of overseas students came last year they account for 150k of the half a million net immigration last year. Biggest increase is from China. Coming from the Chinese Upper class and paying 15k a year for study, sometimes the same again in accommodation. They certainly won't be doing fruit picking.

Might have been something European students did if they had free tuition, but erasmus collapsing due to brexit has killed that.

Is that the case? If so, it kinda undermines the narrative a bit. These students, in the main, will be in the UK for 3/4 years.... are they really "immigrants" as the word is being framed?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that the case? If so, it kinda undermines the narrative a bit. These students, in the main, will be in the UK for 3/4 years.... are they really "immigrants" as the word is being framed?

Ditto the Ukrainian refugees. I'd imagine most if not all will return when it's safe. They account for 100K+ I think. And 100K+ have come from Hong Kong who had British National Overseas status.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is that the case? If so, it kinda undermines the narrative a bit. These students, in the main, will be in the UK for 3/4 years.... are they really "immigrants" as the word is being framed?

They have always been in the numbers though, including the previous record of 450k I think and last years 200k. Think it's 40% stay permanently. It's a real showing of Britain's soft power and a huge bonus to the economy. Edinburgh will be right up there with the biggest benefactors and would be still post independence

[Stairway 2 7]

Ditto the Ukrainian refugees. I'd imagine most if not all will return when it's safe. They account for 100K+ I think. And 100K+ have come from Hong Kong who had British National Overseas status.

The majority of refugees stay indefinitely. Certainly all the Hong Kong immigrants will, I think 1 million have shown interest. Well educated young workers are priceless

[Smartie]

Is that the case? If so, it kinda undermines the narrative a bit. These students, in the main, will be in the UK for 3/4 years.... are they really "immigrants" as the word is being framed?

It appears that a lot of people (not on here, I'm more referring to those whose twitter posts have been quoted higher up the page) are jumping in with 2 feet based on headline figures in order to back up whatever their stated world view happens to be.

There's a bit of devil in the detail and it would probably be worth taking a bit of time to look into the figures before stating what exactly anyone is doing right or wrong.



As an aside, a friend of has a role at the university. He states that higher education has been absolutely clobbered by brexit. The universities need the money from these foreign students in much greater numbers than before but other than the money for the time that the students are here, but it's not expected that they stay in large numbers after that education. There is some concern about what that might mean a little further down the line, particularly in relation to professional degrees and the resultant workforce planning. Interestingly he's come to the conclusion that it is all down to the SNP but that's another argument for another place. Needless to say, I disagreed with him although I bow to his superior knowledge of the subject at hand.

[wookie70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63743259

1 million migrants absorbed into the UK, 1.2 million job vacancies and 5.2 million on out of work benefits. This doesn't seem like the post-Brexit plan.

Have you a source for the 5.2 million out of work benefits. This is the appropriate figure from what I can see https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/outofworkbenefits/timeseries/bcjd/unem

[Stairway 2 7]

Have you a source for the 5.2 million out of work benefits. This is the appropriate figure from what I can see https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/outofworkbenefits/timeseries/bcjd/unem

The image in my post above is from spectator data hub and it uses data from dwp. The biggest rise has been in non working universal credit claimants

[Stairway 2 7]

It appears that a lot of people (not on here, I'm more referring to those whose twitter posts have been quoted higher up the page) are jumping in with 2 feet based on headline figures in order to back up whatever their stated world view happens to be.

There's a bit of devil in the detail and it would probably be worth taking a bit of time to look into the figures before stating what exactly anyone is doing right or wrong.



As an aside, a friend of has a role at the university. He states that higher education has been absolutely clobbered by brexit. The universities need the money from these foreign students in much greater numbers than before but other than the money for the time that the students are here, but it's not expected that they stay in large numbers after that education. There is some concern about what that might mean a little further down the line, particularly in relation to professional degrees and the resultant workforce planning. Interestingly he's come to the conclusion that it is all down to the SNP but that's another argument for another place. Needless to say, I disagreed with him although I bow to his superior knowledge of the subject at hand.

The headline figure is the same uses the same data as it has for decades. 500k people more are living in the uk than were last year. They will be a huge financial benefit to the nation. Although the housing stock isn't rising fast enough so rent prices will explode if this doesn't change, also schools GPS ect.

[wookie70]

The image in my post above is from spectator data hub and it uses data from dwp. The biggest rise has been in non working universal credit claimants

That is a figure for casework not claimants. Big difference and the stats I linked to is for claimants of unemployment related benefits including Employment and Support Allowance and other incapacity benefits, and Income Support and Pension Credit. For all I know there may be millions of cases which will never claim a benefit or have now found work etc. Surely the claimant figure is the only one that matters

[Stairway 2 7]

That is a figure for casework not claimants. Big difference and the stats I linked to is for claimants of unemployment related benefits including Employment and Support Allowance and other incapacity benefits, and Income Support and Pension Credit. For all I know there may be millions of cases which will never claim a benefit or have now found work etc. Surely the claimant figure is the only one that matters

2.5 million are long term sick alone
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63625989.amp

Here's an article showing all 5 plus million not working
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-are-five-million-brits-without-work/

[He's here!]

I dont want you to take this personally, but in the example you site from your younger days am I reading right that British people weren't even the majority? Which would suggest that this phenomenon is not a new thing.

I've worked in agriculture for nearly 15 years and I can assure you that the industry is propped up by foreign labour because local people don't want to do the work, it's too arduous or the money isn't good enough or it's a combination of both. I don't condone low pay, I left farm working because the pay was not good enough, but it's not buttons being offered. It is not a dreadful salary on offer, but people can make similar money in warm pubs, or more money working for supermarkets - who are the main reason agriculture is such a low wage industry.

You're right, I'd say the majority were from outwith the UK. That, as you say, goes back centuries. I remember bring told the Irish used to come over in far greater numbers for the picking season.

Neither I, nor Keir Starmer are advocating a ban on foreign labour for this work. I was simply expressing surprise, based on my own experience, as to why the work is deemed to demanding for British people. We're not talking career choice here, just a way for (mainly young) folk to make some seasonal cash and (in my case certainly) some good friends in the process.

[He's here!]

2.5 million are long term sick alone
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63625989.amp

Here's an article showing all 5 plus million not working
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-are-five-million-brits-without-work/

Interesting to read there that immigrants now make up a record 19% of the workforce despite Brexit.

[Smartie]

The headline figure is the same uses the same data as it has for decades. 500k people more are living in the uk than were last year. They will be a huge financial benefit to the nation. Although the housing stock isn't rising fast enough so rent prices will explode if this doesn't change, also schools GPS ect.

What I'm saying is that a number is just a number.

And I am never going to argue with anyone against immigration being a good thing. Boy do we need a lot of it to Scotland to help us along.

I just think that before the likes of JHB dive in howling about immigration levels, she should maybe take a bit of time to think about some of the fairly unique factors that will lead to that number being the number that it is this year - Ukraine, Hong Kong, Brexit/ higher education stuff, recovery from covid effects, before demanding we all head to the white cliffs of Dover to fend off those little boats.

[archie]

It appears that a lot of people (not on here, I'm more referring to those whose twitter posts have been quoted higher up the page) are jumping in with 2 feet based on headline figures in order to back up whatever their stated world view happens to be.

There's a bit of devil in the detail and it would probably be worth taking a bit of time to look into the figures before stating what exactly anyone is doing right or wrong.



As an aside, a friend of has a role at the university. He states that higher education has been absolutely clobbered by brexit. The universities need the money from these foreign students in much greater numbers than before but other than the money for the time that the students are here, but it's not expected that they stay in large numbers after that education. There is some concern about what that might mean a little further down the line, particularly in relation to professional degrees and the resultant workforce planning. Interestingly he's come to the conclusion that it is all down to the SNP but that's another argument for another place. Needless to say, I disagreed with him although I bow to his superior knowledge of the subject at hand.
His SNP point might be the tuition fees issue. This has led to a cap on Scottish students at university as the fee income from foreign students is essential. Around a third of students at Edinburgh university have Scottish residence. As it happens I favour not having tuition fees, but it can't be right that the impact of the policy restricts access for Scottish students

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting to read there that immigrants now make up a record 19% of the workforce despite Brexit.

Non eu immigrants have more than made up for the drop in eu immigrants so far. Once we get our probably crap trade deal with India and introduce some free movement with them, it will rise further

[Santa Cruz]

His SNP point might be the tuition fees issue. This has led to a cap on Scottish students at university as the fee income from foreign students is essential. Around a third of students at Edinburgh university have Scottish residence. As it happens I favour not having tuition fees, but it can't be right that the impact of the policy restricts access for Scottish students

I agree, it does seem unfair. Find this article interesting. Sorry, realise this topic is probably for another thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jul/22/scottish-universities-offer-cash-incentives-to-lure-other-uk-students

[Stairway 2 7]

What I'm saying is that a number is just a number.

And I am never going to argue with anyone against immigration being a good thing. Boy do we need a lot of it to Scotland to help us along.

I just think that before the likes of JHB dive in howling about immigration levels, she should maybe take a bit of time to think about some of the fairly unique factors that will lead to that number being the number that it is this year - Ukraine, Hong Kong, Brexit/ higher education stuff, recovery from covid effects, before demanding we all head to the white cliffs of Dover to fend off those little boats.

Unfortunately for her Ukraine is the only one I see falling. Hong Kong will be steady for years, universities are throwing up campuses everywhere to cater and sell themselves to Chinese and we are about to finalise reluctantly and over a barrel some free movement with India. The boats are a smokescreen to blame someone, I've not seen one member of cabinet mention today's figures

[grunt]

I just think that before the likes of JHB dive in howling about immigration levels, she should maybe take a bit of time to think about some of the fairly unique factors that will lead to that number being the number that it is this year ...
I think I can see the problem with your suggestion.

[wookie70]

2.5 million are long term sick alone
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63625989.amp

Here's an article showing all 5 plus million not working
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-are-five-million-brits-without-work/

The article again uses those who are described as caseload not claimants. I was initially replying to a poster who may see this a different way to you.

The 2.5 million sick gives its first example as a 61 year old woman who not that long ago we would have called a pensioner. The figures also show a massive rise post pandemic, who would have guessed, and a rise in those with mental health conditions, again no surprise given the lack of provision for any help. The fact many will need to work longer because pensions come later will push the number up and health care to cure an injury/illness that can stop you working can now mean waits of over a year will also play a part in the rise. I just don't see those figures as a surprise and my worry would be around how they are all managing considering so many are not working but most do not seem to claim anything. I suspect we will see that figure in excess deaths over winter and use of food banks along with homeless numbers increasing.

The Spectator predictably sees work as the answer inferring that those in the charts are slacking. It is typical Far Right BS imo. The story should be that many seem to be not receiving support and that the problems in the UK with increasing pension age, lack of help with physical and mental health and post covid illness are resulting in many unable to work or claim benefits. The BBC article has some good narrative around that point.

As is typical with papers they write the story, from their blinkered and bias position(i may well do that too)and then look at the figures that support it. I think there is a much bigger and far more worrying story that is rarely told and that is of the forgotten population within the UK that don't qualify for out of work benefits, have little or no savings or private incomes and are not old enough to get a state pension. Of course just as big a story is of those who receive in work benefits. One in five in the Union I am part of who can call their Employer the UK Government or Scottish or Welsh Government. Far from teh spectator angle of Brits must work more and harder the fact is many Brits work long hours in pressure filled environments for poverty pay.

[Stairway 2 7]

The article again uses those who are described as caseload not claimants. I was initially replying to a poster who may see this a different way to you.

The 2.5 million sick gives its first example as a 61 year old woman who not that long ago we would have called a pensioner. The figures also show a massive rise post pandemic, who would have guessed, and a rise in those with mental health conditions, again no surprise given the lack of provision for any help. The fact many will need to work longer because pensions come later will push the number up and health care to cure an injury/illness that can stop you working can now mean waits of over a year will also play a part in the rise. I just don't see those figures as a surprise and my worry would be around how they are all managing considering so many are not working but most do not seem to claim anything. I suspect we will see that figure in excess deaths over winter and use of food banks along with homeless numbers increasing.

The Spectator predictably sees work as the answer inferring that those in the charts are slacking. It is typical Far Right BS imo. The story should be that many seem to be not receiving support and that the problems in the UK with increasing pension age, lack of help with physical and mental health and post covid illness are resulting in many unable to work or claim benefits. The BBC article has some good narrative around that point.

As is typical with papers they write the story, from their blinkered and bias position(i may well do that too)and then look at the figures that support it. I think there is a much bigger and far more worrying story that is rarely told and that is of the forgotten population within the UK that don't qualify for out of work benefits, have little or no savings or private incomes and are not old enough to get a state pension. Of course just as big a story is of those who receive in work benefits. One in five in the Union I am part of who can call their Employer the UK Government or Scottish or Welsh Government. Far from teh spectator angle of Brits must work more and harder the fact is many Brits work long hours in pressure filled environments for poverty pay.

I see it more that you hardly hear these figures. All you read is record lows in unemployment from the tories, when in reality they are just moving figures around. If people can't work they can't work though and I'm not personally saying they should be made to, just relaying what I'd read

[Jones28]

You're right, I'd say the majority were from outwith the UK. That, as you say, goes back centuries. I remember bring told the Irish used to come over in far greater numbers for the picking season.

Neither I, nor Keir Starmer are advocating a ban on foreign labour for this work. I was simply expressing surprise, based on my own experience, as to why the work is deemed to demanding for British people. We're not talking career choice here, just a way for (mainly young) folk to make some seasonal cash and (in my case certainly) some good friends in the process.

I wouldn’t frame it like that, I’d say British people don’t want to do those jobs because they are pretty intense and monotonous, but also for lots of peoe they aren’t at all convenient. They’re rural, often involving residential stays for long periods. Ideal for students yes, they would be for students in the area or those who don’t want to go home for their holidays. But that isn’t enough to protect the industry.

[wookie70]

I see it more that you hardly hear these figures. All you read is record lows in unemployment from the tories, when in reality they are just moving figures around. If people can't work they can't work though and I'm not personally saying they should be made to, just relaying what I'd read

Not sure why you feel the need for your first sentence. I don't think I attacked you.

I would never read anything from a Tory and believe it. I don't think I mentioned unemployment once so not sure where you got that from.
I really couldn't care who is employed or unemployed. I only care that citizens have a roof over their heads, have decent health care and can eat and don't get cold at an absolute minimum. There is plenty money and resource to make that happen.

The 5 million figure in your graphic is wholly irrelevant imo. It is caseload, what does that tell us. Claimants is what is important at least in terms of the Spectator article you have linked. Caseload doesn't really tell us anything particularly when the DWP is grossly understaffed so will not be able to keep up with the demand.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure why you feel the need for your first sentence. I don't think I attacked you.

I would never read anything from a Tory and believe it. I don't think I mentioned unemployment once so not sure where you got that from.
I really couldn't care who is employed or unemployed. I only care that citizens have a roof over their heads, have decent health care and can eat and don't get cold at an absolute minimum. There is plenty money and resource to make that happen.

The 5 million figure in your graphic is wholly irrelevant imo. It is caseload, what does that tell us. Claimants is what is important at least in terms of the Spectator article you have linked. Caseload doesn't really tell us anything particularly when the DWP is grossly understaffed so will not be able to keep up with the demand.

Eh 😆 I was saying you, as in us the public. Second sentence is, all we as public read from the tories is they have record low unemployment. not you as wookie personally reads.

I've no idea what you read ha

[wookie70]

Eh 😆 I was saying you, as in us the public. Second sentence is, all we as public read from the tories is they have record low unemployment. not you as wookie personally reads.

I've no idea what you read ha When you reply to someone and use the word "you" would that normally not mean the poster you were replying to. It was a bit confusing as I don't think our views are that far apart on this. Thanks for the clarification

I agree that the Tories are completely misusing that unemployment figure

[Stairway 2 7]

When you reply to someone and use the word "you" would that normally not mean the poster you were replying to. It was a bit confusing as I don't think our views are that far apart on this. Thanks for the clarification

I agree that the Tories are completely misusing that unemployment figure

I never really thought about it. Like if I said you never see an honest tory nowadays. But actually that would probably apply to you personally too ha.

I don't know enough about the subject but have read bits about them shifting columns. Sanctioning at the drop of a hat and moving people that clearly are unable to work into looking for work. The Spectator article and 95% of all Spectator articles are rotten, its just where I had seen the figures

[He's here!]

I wouldn’t frame it like that, I’d say British people don’t want to do those jobs because they are pretty intense and monotonous, but also for lots of peoe they aren’t at all convenient. They’re rural, often involving residential stays for long periods. Ideal for students yes, they would be for students in the area or those who don’t want to go home for their holidays. But that isn’t enough to protect the industry.

I was in further education for much of the time so basically funding my studies - and after that pretty much picking up whatever work I could find to see me through a year (from dishwashing in restaurants to working at theme parks). I wouldn't have wanted to spend my life in these jobs but when you're young with few commitments and you know that you're moving on in a couple of months it's not such a bad life. Again, my point is not that students on holiday are the answer, I'm just surprised to hear things have moved on to such an extent that this is no longer an option for British students/job-seekers because it's too arduous.

[He's here!]

I see it more that you hardly hear these figures. All you read is record lows in unemployment from the tories, when in reality they are just moving figures around. If people can't work they can't work though and I'm not personally saying they should be made to, just relaying what I'd read

I'm guessing that the too ill to work among the 5.2 million claiming out of work benefits aren't included among the unemployed because they are not seeking work?

[wookie70]

I'm guessing that the too ill to work among the 5.2 million claiming out of work benefits aren't included among the unemployed because they are not seeking work?

There may be 5.2 millions cases in the DWP but it is nowhere near that in terms of claimants with the latest figure just over 1.5 million. Big difference between claiming and claimant. That 1.5 million is almost the same as when the Tories came in and much more than the full period of Labour where towards the end of their term it was just over half that figure.

[Santa Cruz]

I'm guessing that the too ill to work among the 5.2 million claiming out of work benefits aren't included among the unemployed because they are not seeking work?

Breakdown explained in the link.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/160372/economics/economic-inactivity/

[wookie70]

Breakdown explained in the link.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/160372/economics/economic-inactivity/ Good link thanks.

[Mibbes Aye]

Good link thanks.

I think that's an interesting graph but I think there's a lot that lies unreported beneath it that isn't factored in, in part because some of it is too hard to measure.

As an example, my son is at uni, therefore a student, but he works on the NHS staff bank in two board areas. Because it is relatively well-paid and he is happy to do lots of shifts he exceeds the tax threshold and his earnings find their way into the economy through his spending. That's true to some extent for all his friends and peers

He also does voluntary work, as do a lot of retired people. There is also a significant cohort of carers who can't work due to their caring role but do voluntary work, to an extent as a form of respite. There is a real difficulty in calculating what all that is worth, other than through a form of contribution analysis, but it is fair to say it provides societal benefits that are less tangible than just measuring in pounds sterling.

There is also a counterfactual with carers - they provide care that if they weren't able to do so would cost SG arounf £10-11bn to replace. That's just shy of how much it costs to run the NHS in Scotland.

[wookie70]

I think that's an interesting graph but I think there's a lot that lies unreported beneath it that isn't factored in, in part because some of it is too hard to measure.

As an example, my son is at uni, therefore a student, but he works on the NHS staff bank in two board areas. Because it is relatively well-paid and he is happy to do lots of shifts he exceeds the tax threshold and his earnings find their way into the economy through his spending. That's true to some extent for all his friends and peers

He also does voluntary work, as do a lot of retired people. There is also a significant cohort of carers who can't work due to their caring role but do voluntary work, to an extent as a form of respite. There is a real difficulty in calculating what all that is worth, other than through a form of contribution analysis, but it is fair to say it provides societal benefits that are less tangible than just measuring in pounds sterling.

There is also a counterfactual with carers - they provide care that if they weren't able to do so would cost SG arounf £10-11bn to replace. That's just shy of how much it costs to run the NHS in Scotland. I agree with all of that. Lots of ways to contribute to society and the demonising of those who don't "work" is not constructive. It is just all part of the divide and conquer agenda though.

[wookie70]

I know it has been said often but watching Andy Burnham on QT it really saddens me when we see the calibre of him compared to the leader of the Labour Party. Strong, good ideas, ability to appeal to both sides of the party etc, not boring and incredibly human.

[He's here!]

Breakdown explained in the link.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/160372/economics/economic-inactivity/

Further details here:

Yes, five million are on out-of-work benefits. Here’s the proof | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/yes-five-million-are-on-out-of-work-benefits-heres-the-proof/)

[Stairway 2 7]

Daily mail and others in uproar because 90 thousand kids could need to move to public schools, if private schools lose charitable status.

Poor lambs. Private schools could always cut the prices, Eton has £1 billion of assets apparently

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-scrap-charitable-status-for-private-schools-to-fund-catch-up/

[marinello59]

Daily mail and others in uproar because 90 thousand kids could need to move to public schools, if private schools lose charitable status.

Poor lambs. Private schools could always cut the prices, Eton has £1 billion of assets apparently

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-scrap-charitable-status-for-private-schools-to-fund-catch-up/

Thats long overdue. Even better if Daily Mail readers are upset. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Daily mail and others in uproar because 90 thousand kids could need to move to public schools, if private schools lose charitable status.

Poor lambs. Private schools could always cut the prices, Eton has £1 billion of assets apparently

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-scrap-charitable-status-for-private-schools-to-fund-catch-up/

They don't have to move at all. Just take in some more kids from the local deprived area and mix them all up.

[Keith_M]

Owen Jones had a good moan in the Guardian today about the selection process for potential Labour MPs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/labour-leadership-internal-candidates-democracy-prospective-mps

I realise it could be easy to dismiss it because it's from Owen Jones, as he's a well known lefty and Corbyn supporter, but he does makes some pretty valid points, and quotes some reasonably reliable sources, e.g. John McDonnell...

'The allegations, he wrote, “are that selection procedures are being manipulated to prevent candidates being selected who are on the left, centre left or who may prevent a favoured candidate from having a clear run for a seat” '

[marinello59]

Daily mail and others in uproar because 90 thousand kids could need to move to public schools, if private schools lose charitable status.

Poor lambs. Private schools could always cut the prices, Eton has £1 billion of assets apparently

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-scrap-charitable-status-for-private-schools-to-fund-catch-up/

Thats long overdue. Even better if Daily Mail readers are upset. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Owen Jones had a good moan in the Guardian today about the selection process for potential Labour MPs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/labour-leadership-internal-candidates-democracy-prospective-mps

I realise it could be easy to dismiss it because it's from Owen Jones, as he's a well known lefty and Corbyn supporter, but he does makes some pretty valid points, and quotes some reasonably reliable sources, e.g. John McDonnell...

'The allegations, he wrote, “are that selection procedures are being manipulated to prevent candidates being selected who are on the left, centre left or who may prevent a favoured candidate from having a clear run for a seat” '

Jones and McDonnell. McDonnell and Jones. It must be funny for them hating the very thing they rely on to survive.

In Jones' case it is his sub-'A' level politics hissy-fit paid columns about Labour. Although you suspect his writing is actually all about him really :greengrin

In McDonnell's case it is his ongoing readiness to accept the Party's full financial support when fighting elections. Even though he voted against practically everything they tried to legislate when they were in power, some 500 times or thereabouts.

You would think that if he was that unhappy with Labour Party manifestoes and policy he would resign and stand as an independent. Maybe craven hypocrisy feels easier.

[He's here!]

Jones and McDonnell. McDonnell and Jones. It must be funny for them hating the very thing they rely on to survive.

In Jones' case it is his sub-'A' level politics hissy-fit paid columns about Labour. Although you suspect his writing is actually all about him really :greengrin

In McDonnell's case it is his ongoing readiness to accept the Party's full financial support when fighting elections. Even though he voted against practically everything they tried to legislate when they were in power, some 500 times or thereabouts.

You would think that if he was that unhappy with Labour Party manifestoes and policy he would resign and stand as an independent. Maybe craven hypocrisy feels easier.

Spot-on re both.

[Kato]

Daily mail and others in uproar because 90 thousand kids could need to move to public schools, if private schools lose charitable status.

Poor lambs. Private schools could always cut the prices, Eton has £1 billion of assets apparently

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-scrap-charitable-status-for-private-schools-to-fund-catch-up/They are keen on everything else being subject to their market. You wonder why they don't want the schools they went to out there. Shouldn't they be proud to?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

keep up the good work socialist labour voters, regain your party from the nasty right :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317606286_936902757279343_5847813322906400488_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7gzwi66ZGU4AX_rwYRy&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAJ3r_csSmBu6ghqZ2er7CDxPtIZBKPJKlKU6Y2HlOI Yg&oe=638D7E24

[neil7908]

Jones and McDonnell. McDonnell and Jones. It must be funny for them hating the very thing they rely on to survive.

In Jones' case it is his sub-'A' level politics hissy-fit paid columns about Labour. Although you suspect his writing is actually all about him really :greengrin

In McDonnell's case it is his ongoing readiness to accept the Party's full financial support when fighting elections. Even though he voted against practically everything they tried to legislate when they were in power, some 500 times or thereabouts.

You would think that if he was that unhappy with Labour Party manifestoes and policy he would resign and stand as an independent. Maybe craven hypocrisy feels easier.

In the article you link to Jones replies to quite a few comments and comes across pretty reasonable to me.

Starmer has completely abandoned a number of the promises he made when campaigning to be leader. Should he not be called out on that? When the Tories lie we shout about how terrible it is but for Starmer it's canny politics etc.

Given the Labour parties current stance on Brexit, immigration etc the plan seems to be beat the Tories by becoming them.

I think almost everyone on the left of the party accepted after Corbyn it was a new era and things would shift but this is a march beyond 'the centre'.

I get the need to get rid of the Tories but I'm not convinced Starmer's approach is the only way, and his personal approval ratings suggest voters remain unconvinced by him.

[Hibbyradge]

keep up the good work socialist labour voters, regain your party from the nasty right :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317606286_936902757279343_5847813322906400488_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7gzwi66ZGU4AX_rwYRy&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAJ3r_csSmBu6ghqZ2er7CDxPtIZBKPJKlKU6Y2HlOI Yg&oe=638D7E24

How does walking away from something regain it?

[Stairway 2 7]

Wow and two years of recession to come before the election. I got evens on labour at the bookies not long ago, 1/2 that they are now still looks free money

Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
·

Nowcast Model + Interactive Map (30/11):

LAB: 426 (+224) - 47.4%
CON: 129 (-236) - 26.4%
SNP: 38 (-10) - 3.7%
LDM: 33 (+22) - 9.2%
PLC: 4 (=) - 0.7%
GRN: 1 (=) - 4.5%
RFM: 0 (=) - 5.6%
Others: 0 (=) - 2.5%

LAB Majority of 202.

[Mibbes Aye]

In the article you link to Jones replies to quite a few comments and comes across pretty reasonable to me.

Starmer has completely abandoned a number of the promises he made when campaigning to be leader. Should he not be called out on that? When the Tories lie we shout about how terrible it is but for Starmer it's canny politics etc.

Given the Labour parties current stance on Brexit, immigration etc the plan seems to be beat the Tories by becoming them.

I think almost everyone on the left of the party accepted after Corbyn it was a new era and things would shift but this is a march beyond 'the centre'.

I get the need to get rid of the Tories but I'm not convinced Starmer's approach is the only way, and his personal approval ratings suggest voters remain unconvinced by him.

So did he abandon promises or lie about them? Or lie about abandoning them or abandon a lie about them?

And what's this 'new era' shenanigans? The only other person I've heard call Corbyn's tenure an 'era' is Owen Jones. I say 'heard' and I mean 'read' but to be honest, somehow he manages to write in a shrill, desperate squeal :greengrin

Corbyn's tenure was not, by any definition' an 'era'. It was five years of singular and spectacular failure to hold a horrible loathesome government to account. Another one who was happy to make the most of the benefits of being a Labour MP but vote against Labour hundreds upon hundreds of times.

As for Labour becoming the Tories, I'm not sure the private school heads, or non-doms, or energy bosses wpuld agree with you :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

keep up the good work socialist labour voters, regain your party from the nasty right :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317606286_936902757279343_5847813322906400488_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7gzwi66ZGU4AX_rwYRy&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAJ3r_csSmBu6ghqZ2er7CDxPtIZBKPJKlKU6Y2HlOI Yg&oe=638D7E24

You've posted an opinion but not a very informed one :greengrin

Is it failing workers to introduce full employment rights from day one in your job? Or introduce bereavement leave? Or get rid of the caps on compensation that workers can receive from the Employment Tribunal process?

There's no shortage of other things and it's not hard to find them. It's really a question of whether you want to.

[hibsbollah]

So did he abandon promises or lie about them? Or lie about abandoning them or abandon a lie about them?

And what's this 'new era' shenanigans? The only other person I've heard call Corbyn's tenure an 'era' is Owen Jones. I say 'heard' and I mean 'read' but to be honest, somehow he manages to write in a shrill, desperate squeal :greengrin

Corbyn's tenure was not, by any definition' an 'era'. It was five years of singular and spectacular failure to hold a horrible loathesome government to account. Another one who was happy to make the most of the benefits of being a Labour MP but vote against Labour hundreds upon hundreds of times.

As for Labour becoming the Tories, I'm not sure the private school heads, or non-doms, or energy bosses wpuld agree with you :greengrin

Your clearly pathological obsession with Owen Jones is now becoming deeply concerning. Almost as concerning as your first sentence which makes no sense at all. Try dealing with the actual issues involved and maybe even answer some of the very apposite points Neil is raising.

[Hibbyradge]

Last night in the Chesterfield by-election, Labour received 17,309 votes with 61.22% of the vote share.

That's its highest majority and share of the vote ever in the seat.

[James310]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP.

https://twitter.com/LoveWestLothian/status/1598634800708870144?t=wnjCd3_4eSumzsa6u855TA&s=19

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.

Lab - 39.8% (+10.2)
SNP - 35.2% (-6.7)
Con - 7.8% (-10)
LD - 3.7% (nc)
Green - 2.7% (-1.6)
2 independents stood as well

8.5% swing to Labour

[Stairway 2 7]

Last night in the Chesterfield by-election, Labour received 17,309 votes with 61.22% of the vote share.

That's its highest majority and share of the vote ever in the seat.

More votes for Labour than 1997


PoliticsJOE
@PoliticsJOE_UK
·
3h
The Tories last night recorded their worst vote share in Chester since 1832

[grunt]

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.
It does nothing of the sort as you well know.

[hibsbollah]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP.

https://twitter.com/LoveWestLothian/status/1598634800708870144?t=wnjCd3_4eSumzsa6u855TA&s=19

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.

Lab - 39.8% (+10.2)
SNP - 35.2% (-6.7)
Con - 7.8% (-10)
LD - 3.7% (nc)
Green - 2.7% (-1.6)
2 independents stood as well

8.5% swing to Labour

It shows that Scotland is voting on a dominant single issue, with the unionist and independence parties level of support remaining remarkably constant, votes are lent and borrowed based on tactical voting. Political ideology has taken a back seat and levels of turnout are historically low, as they were in the Chester by election down south, demonstrating a lack of enthusiasm for political parties generally.

[ronaldo7]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP.

https://twitter.com/LoveWestLothian/status/1598634800708870144?t=wnjCd3_4eSumzsa6u855TA&s=19

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.

Lab - 39.8% (+10.2)
SNP - 35.2% (-6.7)
Con - 7.8% (-10)
LD - 3.7% (nc)
Green - 2.7% (-1.6)
2 independents stood as well

8.5% swing to Labour

I thought this was a labour seat already, with the incumbent having passed away recently.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought this was a labour seat already, with the incumbent having passed away recently.

It was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP
This is complete rubbish.

They haven't "taken the seat from the SNP".
The council by-election was called when one of the 4 existing councillors died.
The 4 councillors were 2 x SNP, 1 x Labour and 1 x Cons.
The Labour councillor died and another Labour councillor has been elected.

So nothing's changed?

[Stairway 2 7]

If reform keep building and take votes in the GE, tories are in for record lows

Matt Goodwin
@GoodwinMJ
·
3h
NEW.

25 point lead for Labour ...

Labour 46% (+2)
Conservatives 21% (-3)
Greens 9% (+1)
Lib Dems 7% (-1)
Reform 7% (+2)
SNP 5% (-)

@PeoplePolling
Nov 30

[Stairway 2 7]

This is complete rubbish.

They haven't "taken the seat from the SNP".
The council by-election was called when one of the 4 existing councillors died.
The 4 councillors were 2 x SNP, 1 x Labour and 1 x Cons.
The Labour councillor died and another Labour councillor has been elected.

So nothing's changed?

Vote share has certainly changed. Although it's hard being the incumbent regime

[James310]

This is complete rubbish.

They haven't "taken the seat from the SNP".
The council by-election was called when one of the 4 existing councillors died.
The 4 councillors were 2 x SNP, 1 x Labour and 1 x Cons.
The Labour councillor died and another Labour councillor has been elected.

So nothing's changed?

Ok my bad, but something has changed. The Labour vote is up and the SNP vote is down.

[grunt]

Vote share has certainly changed. Although it's hard being the incumbent regime
Can you justifiably compare vote share when the May vote was electing 4 councillors and this vote was for just 1? Different circumstances, no?

[ronaldo7]

Can you justifiably compare vote share when the May vote was electing 4 councillors and this vote was for just 1? Different circumstances, no?

Tory vote -10
Labour vote +10

Snp stayed at home.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can you justifiably compare vote share when the May vote was electing 4 councillors and this vote was for just 1? Different circumstances, no?

Anyone could have won the seat. Its one council seat hardly a big story or worth multiple posts though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok my bad, but something has changed. The Labour vote is up and the SNP vote is down.

Labour +10.2%
Conservative - 10%

Looks like tactical voting from the opposition to democracy parties

[greenginger]

More votes for Labour than 1997


PoliticsJOE
@PoliticsJOE_UK
·
3h
The Tories last night recorded their worst vote share in Chester since 1832


10,000 fewer votes for labour than in 2019.

41% turnout sounds like political apathy has set in.

[Stairway 2 7]

10,000 fewer votes for labour than in 2019.

41% turnout sounds like political apathy has set in.

By elections usually get less voters than a GE, but definitely a huge collapse of tory votes

[greenginger]

R
By elections usually get less voters than a GE, but definitely a huge collapse of tory votes

The collapse in the Tory vote was to be expected given recent events, but 10,000 fewer labour votes when they are meant to be riding a wave and the next government in waiting.

[marinello59]

Labour +10.2%
Conservative - 10%

Looks like tactical voting from the opposition to democracy parties

What , they opposed democracy by voting. Genius. :greengrin

[James310]

What , they opposed democracy by voting. Genius. :greengrin

And the defenders of democracy stayed at home, which I guess is their democratic right.

[The Harp Awakes]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP.

https://twitter.com/LoveWestLothian/status/1598634800708870144?t=wnjCd3_4eSumzsa6u855TA&s=19

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.

Lab - 39.8% (+10.2)
SNP - 35.2% (-6.7)
Con - 7.8% (-10)
LD - 3.7% (nc)
Green - 2.7% (-1.6)
2 independents stood as well

8.5% swing to Labour

Is this council ward another red tory/tory coalition like Edinburgh :dunno:

[James310]

Is this council ward another red tory/tory coalition like Edinburgh :dunno:

I don't believe there is any formal coalitions councils in Scotland that are Labour/Tory.

But I do remember Adam McVey the leader of SNP Edinburgh trying to offer Tory's paid positions in Edinburgh Council to keep Labour out.

[Jack]

I don't believe there is any formal coalitions councils in Scotland that are Labour/Tory.

But I do remember Adam McVey the leader of SNP Edinburgh trying to offer Tory's paid positions in Edinburgh Council to keep Labour out.

Really?

What's the current situation?

[James310]

Really?

What's the current situation?

Edinburgh’s Labour Group has formed an administration to lead the City of Edinburgh Council.

Detailed discussions have been ongoing across political groups since the Local Government Elections on 5 May and, following a vote at today’s Council meeting, Labour councillors will convene the Council’s six executive committees. Cllr Cammy Day has become Leader of the Council with Cllr Mandy Watt appointed as Depute Leader.

[Glory Lurker]

Scottish Labour take seat from SNP.

https://twitter.com/LoveWestLothian/status/1598634800708870144?t=wnjCd3_4eSumzsa6u855TA&s=19

Very low turnout though but confirms the rise of Labour again across the whole of the UK.

Lab - 39.8% (+10.2)
SNP - 35.2% (-6.7)
Con - 7.8% (-10)
LD - 3.7% (nc)
Green - 2.7% (-1.6)
2 independents stood as well

8.5% swing to Labour

Britain Elects says Labour Hold, so not sure what you are on about.

[Moulin Yarns]

Really?

What's the current situation?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Scotland#:~:text=Councils%20ar e%20made%20up%20of,1%2C227%20elected%20councillors %20in%20Scotland.

There is a table that shows all administrations. A lot of minorities and a few groups.

[grunt]

I don't believe there is any formal coalitions councils in Scotland that are Labour/Tory.

But I do remember Adam McVey the leader of SNP Edinburgh trying to offer Tory's paid positions in Edinburgh Council to keep Labour out.
What's this then?


The SNP capital group leader (McVey) was ousted from his role thanks to Labour making a deal with the Lib Dems and Conservatives, with Cammy Day the new man in charge at the council.

[grunt]

I don't believe there is any formal coalitions councils in Scotland that are Labour/Tory.

Edinburgh: Labour deal with Tories and Lib DemsLargest group on Edinburgh City Council: SNP, 19/63 seats
The SNP was returned as the largest group – however, Labour (with just 13 councillors), turned to its former ‘No’ campaign partners – Tories and the Liberal Democrats – to stitch up forming an administration.
After inflicting damaging austerity and Brexit, the Tories got crushed by Edinburgh voters on polling day – losing 9 out of their former 18 seats.
Despite that, Labour chose to reward them by inviting them to share power on the council.


West LothianLargest group on West Lothian Council: SNP, 15/33 seats
Before the elections, Labour ran West Lothian as a minority, propped up by Tory votes.
However, on May 5, the Tory vote collapsed – and just 4 Tory councillors were returned (compared to 7 last time).
Despite that, Labour sought support from the Tories, a single Lib Dem and an independent to form an administration.


StirlingLargest group on Stirling Council: SNP, 8/23 seats
The SNP was returned as the biggest party in Stirling, while Labour had its worst result ever – with just a 16.1% share of the vote.
And yet, despite being only the third-largest group on Stirling Council, Anas Sarwar’s party have struck a deal with the Conservatives to claim power, offering the Tories the role of Provost in return for their votes.


South LanarkshireLargest group on South Lanarkshire Council: SNP, 27/64 seats
The SNP is the biggest party in South Lanarkshire, and increased its vote share from 2017.
However, Labour – on 24 seats – once again seized control of the council, propped up by the Tories and the Liberal Democrats.

[marinello59]

I don't believe there is any formal coalitions councils in Scotland that are Labour/Tory.

But I do remember Adam McVey the leader of SNP Edinburgh trying to offer Tory's paid positions in Edinburgh Council to keep Labour out.

At Council level it’s more about the competence of the people running things than the party they represent. They are doing a management job, not trying to impose any particular political dogma. It depresses the hell out of me watching how much squabbling goes on based on party lines. As long as I’m getting decent services I couldn’t care less which party is in charge of getting my bins emptied on time.

[James310]

Edinburgh: Labour deal with Tories and Lib DemsLargest group on Edinburgh City Council: SNP, 19/63 seats
The SNP was returned as the largest group – however, Labour (with just 13 councillors), turned to its former ‘No’ campaign partners – Tories and the Liberal Democrats – to stitch up forming an administration.
After inflicting damaging austerity and Brexit, the Tories got crushed by Edinburgh voters on polling day – losing 9 out of their former 18 seats.
Despite that, Labour chose to reward them by inviting them to share power on the council.


West LothianLargest group on West Lothian Council: SNP, 15/33 seats
Before the elections, Labour ran West Lothian as a minority, propped up by Tory votes.
However, on May 5, the Tory vote collapsed – and just 4 Tory councillors were returned (compared to 7 last time).
Despite that, Labour sought support from the Tories, a single Lib Dem and an independent to form an administration.


StirlingLargest group on Stirling Council: SNP, 8/23 seats
The SNP was returned as the biggest party in Stirling, while Labour had its worst result ever – with just a 16.1% share of the vote.
And yet, despite being only the third-largest group on Stirling Council, Anas Sarwar’s party have struck a deal with the Conservatives to claim power, offering the Tories the role of Provost in return for their votes.


South LanarkshireLargest group on South Lanarkshire Council: SNP, 27/64 seats
The SNP is the biggest party in South Lanarkshire, and increased its vote share from 2017.
However, Labour – on 24 seats – once again seized control of the council, propped up by the Tories and the Liberal Democrats.




None are formal coalitions. Anas Sarwar did say though they would work with others on an issue by issue basis, so kind of similar to what the SNP wanted to do in Edinburgh with the Tory's.

[James310]

At Council level it’s more about the competence of the people running things than the party they represent. They are doing a management job, not trying to impose any particular political dogma. It depresses the hell out of me watching how much squabbling goes on based on party lines. As long as I’m getting decent services I couldn’t care less which party is in charge of getting my bins emptied on time.

Agreed, but it's Scotland where literally everything has to be seen through the constitutional lense.

[grunt]

None are formal coalitions. So are there ANY formal coalitions in local government? And if not, why did you feel it necessary to highlight the lack of Lab/Tory coalitions if there aren't any of any description? Why are you wasting my time?

[James310]

So are there ANY formal coalitions in local government? And if not, why did you feel it necessary to highlight the lack of Lab/Tory coalitions if there aren't any of any description? Why are you wasting my time?

Lol, why so angry? Look back and you will see a question was asked and I answered, that's how it works on here most of time.

There is definitely a different mood amongst SNP supporters these days. Much more angry than normal.

[Ozyhibby]

Nobody in Edinburgh believes it is anything other than a Labour/Tory council. Anyone pushing a line other than that is trolling. Again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Nobody in Edinburgh believes it is anything other than a Labour/Tory council. Anyone pushing a line other than that is trolling. Again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if Adam McVey had his way would it be a formal coalition between the SNP and the Tory's? Really?

[He's here!]

At Council level it’s more about the competence of the people running things than the party they represent. They are doing a management job, not trying to impose any particular political dogma. It depresses the hell out of me watching how much squabbling goes on based on party lines. As long as I’m getting decent services I couldn’t care less which party is in charge of getting my bins emptied on time.

I'd agree with that. Problem is the SNP included support for an independence referendum as a key pledge in their manifesto for the most recent council elections and that invevitably sees party lines drawn around the constitutional question which, as you say, should have zero bearing on when your bins get emptied.

[Ozyhibby]

So if Adam McVey had his way would it be a formal coalition between the SNP and the Tory's? Really?

Is there any SNP Tory coalitions in Scotland? Formal or informal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

None are formal coalitions. Anas Sarwar did say though they would work with others on an issue by issue basis, so kind of similar to what the SNP wanted to do in Edinburgh with the Tory's.

It's also often (deliberately?) forgotten that as FM, Alex Salmond formed an informal coalition with the Tories at Holyrood from 2007 to 2011.

[James310]

Is there any SNP Tory coalitions in Scotland? Formal or informal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, but according to what you call a coalition there would have been in Edinburgh if Adam McVey had his way, he was offering the Tory's paid positions in Council.

So what would you have called it if that deal has been done between the SNP and the Tory's?

Facts aren't your friend are they.

[weecounty hibby]

I'd agree with that. Problem is the SNP included support for an independence referendum as a key pledge in their manifesto for the most recent council elections and that invevitably sees party lines drawn around the constitutional question which, as you say, should have zero bearing on when your bins get emptied.

And also the Tories and Labour claimed a vote fir them was about stopping independence. Go figure!

[degenerated]

Who could have seen this coming....26318

[neil7908]

Who could have seen this coming....26318

But Keir promised. Surely he wouldn't go back on his word...

[ronaldo7]

Sir keir going back on his promise from nearly a week ago.

That must be a record for him.

[Stairway 2 7]

Having read the article it seems a bit of a non story. Both Brown and Starmer wanting an elected second chamber. Notice in the article they will put more powers to Scotland in the manifesto. That could mean anything or nothing, probably the latter. It says they will ban MPs having second jobs,tories will be in uproar, or just do it further underhand

[He's here!]

Sir Keir Starmer: We will radically shake up devolution | The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/sir-keir-starmer-we-will-radically-shake-up-devolution-3941127)

[Ozyhibby]

Sir Keir Starmer: We will radically shake up devolution | The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/sir-keir-starmer-we-will-radically-shake-up-devolution-3941127)

Tomorrow is a big day. Anything short of fully devolved govt will be short of what’s needed. There is also the trust issue with Brown.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Tomorrow is a big day. Anything short of fully devolved govt will be short of what’s needed. There is also the trust issue with Brown.


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I saw some of the proposals, more local decision making is something that needs to be done. Centralised decisions have not always worked. IMHO

[Stairway 2 7]

Tomorrow is a big day. Anything short of fully devolved govt will be short of what’s needed. There is also the trust issue with Brown.


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Absolute madness them having brown anywhere near any promises to Scotland

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Lol, why so angry? Look back and you will see a question was asked and I answered

Don't look back in anger. 😀

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't look back in anger. 😀

This place is an oasis of calm.

[James310]

Don't look back in anger. 😀

Little by little I think the Labour party is putting in place it's masterplan, the Tory's lead is sliding away, some might say yea whatever but they need to stop crying their heart out. Do you know what I mean?

[Hibbyradge]

Little by little I think the Labour party is putting in place it's masterplan, the Tory's lead is sliding away, some might say yea whatever but they need to stop crying their heart out. Do you know what I mean?

Definitely maybe.

[Glory Lurker]

Sir Keir Starmer: We will radically shake up devolution | The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/sir-keir-starmer-we-will-radically-shake-up-devolution-3941127)

Be interesting to see the detail. He doesn't half witter away though, "these isles" over and over. Funny he thinks he was head of a single prosecutor for the UK, too.

[McD]

Definitely maybe.


gordon Brown and his previous suggestions definitely cast no shadow over this type of proposal though

[Jack]

Be interesting to see the detail. He doesn't half witter away though, "these isles" over and over. Funny he thinks he was head of a single prosecutor for the UK, too.

I'm not entirely sure the Labour Party has ever got to grips with even this level of devolution, despite their major role in setting it up, never mind any further progress.

A series of Scottish leaders continually making gaffs, none worse than the woeful Richard Leonard. Gordon Brown totally discredited selling out to sell the Vow; Westminster leaders ignorant and/or appallingly briefed. Its not a good look.

[Glory Lurker]

I'm not entirely sure the Labour Party has ever got to grips with even this level of devolution, despite their major role in setting it up, never mind any further progress.

A series of Scottish leaders continually making gaffs, none worse than the woeful Richard Leonard. Gordon Brown totally discredited selling out to sell the Vow; Westminster leaders ignorant and/or appallingly briefed. Its not a good look.

I fully agree and the tone of Starmer's piece does nothing to disabuse that.

What are the failures of devolution? Scotland repeatedly voting for an administration Labour doesn't like?

We will need to see the detail but it sounds like he wants more powers to be allocated at local authority level. I can't see how that could be achieved without changing the Scotland Act, even if we accept the principle of it. It would all be keeping with the newly-refound unionist philosophy that the UK is a unitary nation, though.

[marinello59]

I fully agree and the tone of Starmer's piece does nothing to disabuse that.

What are the failures of devolution? Scotland repeatedly voting for an administration Labour doesn't like?

We will need to see the detail but it sounds like he wants more powers to be allocated at local authority level. I can't see how that could be achieved without changing the Scotland Act, even if we accept the principle of it. It would all be keeping with the newly-refound unionist philosophy that the UK is a unitary nation, though.

The main failure of devolution is it stopped at Holyrood. I look forward to seeing the detail but it sounds like it may be the sort of thing Lesley Riddoch has argued we should do for years.

[Glory Lurker]

The main failure of devolution is it stopped at Holyrood. I look forward to seeing the detail but it sounds like it may be the sort of thing Lesley Riddoch has argued we should do for years.

I don't necessarily disagree but it should be for Holyrood to devolve further. Devolution respected Scotland as a nation. IF the proposals effectively mean removing Holyrood -level control then that is a step away from that respect.

For what it is worth too I don't expect local authorities will want further obligations in the current financial climate.

[cabbageandribs1875]

not too much of a surprise really (2) Howard Beckett on Twitter: "Not surprised that Starmer has blown. 36% lead down to 14%. Backing austerity, opposing nurses, & picking on immigrants was always a road to rack and ruin." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1599183378523176960?t=H_A4KhZ24FIqlUkdy-LMUA&s=19&fbclid=IwAR3aL7s7DtY3Lmj5aZ9fmQ_Kd4_jATWs_vRt1Genw yt_QvVuAMiMNSbPht4)


the response from shirleywaspi is absolutely 110% BANG ON :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

The main failure of devolution is it stopped at Holyrood. I look forward to seeing the detail but it sounds like it may be the sort of thing Lesley Riddoch has argued we should do for years.

I would say the main failure is that it relies on a grant.


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[marinello59]

I would say the main failure is that it relies on a grant.


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That’s a different argument. The sort of devolution that appears to be getting proposed here could and should be applied in an Independent Scotland as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

not too much of a surprise really (2) Howard Beckett on Twitter: "Not surprised that Starmer has blown. 36% lead down to 14%. Backing austerity, opposing nurses, & picking on immigrants was always a road to rack and ruin." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1599183378523176960?t=H_A4KhZ24FIqlUkdy-LMUA&s=19&fbclid=IwAR3aL7s7DtY3Lmj5aZ9fmQ_Kd4_jATWs_vRt1Genw yt_QvVuAMiMNSbPht4)


the response from shirleywaspi is absolutely 110% BANG ON :agree:
Selective reporting that ha

[He's here!]

I'm not entirely sure the Labour Party has ever got to grips with even this level of devolution, despite their major role in setting it up, never mind any further progress.

A series of Scottish leaders continually making gaffs, none worse than the woeful Richard Leonard. Gordon Brown totally discredited selling out to sell the Vow; Westminster leaders ignorant and/or appallingly briefed. Its not a good look.

Agree about Leonard and pretty much all the more recent Holyrood leaders, Dugdale simply coming across as a bit dim and Murphy surely being the worst of the lot. Sarwar, though, I'm still hopeful about.

Can't agree on Gordon Brown being 'discredited'. It would be a privilege, even now, for Holyrood to play host to a politician of his calibre. The reason nationalists get hot under the collar about him is because, like Alistair Darling, he's an accomplished, intelligent and passionate Scot who is heartfelt about Scotland being part of the UK. He played a blinder during the 2014 referendum IMHO. How did he 'sell out' over the Vow? IIRC he was the broker brought in by the Record to get the three main party leaders round the table and set the Smith commission in motion. He wasn't responsible for its implementation.

[Keith_M]

Agree about Leonard and pretty much all the more recent Holyrood leaders, Dugdale simply coming across as a bit dim and Murphy surely being the worst of the lot. Sarwar, though, I'm still hopeful about.

Can't agree on Gordon Brown being 'discredited'. It would be a privilege, even now, for Holyrood to play host to a politician of his calibre. The reason nationalists get hot under the collar about him is because, like Alistair Darling, he's an accomplished, intelligent and passionate Scot who is heartfelt about Scotland being part of the UK. He played a blinder during the 2014 referendum IMHO. How did he 'sell out' over the Vow? IIRC he was the broker brought in by the Record to get the three main party leaders round the table and set the Smith commission in motion. He wasn't responsible for its implementation.


If we're going to have a pile on about using the word 'unionist', with threads closed as a result, then is 'nationalist' really a good phrase to be using?

[Kato]

Agree about Leonard and pretty much all the more recent Holyrood leaders, Dugdale simply coming across as a bit dim and Murphy surely being the worst of the lot. Sarwar, though, I'm still hopeful about.

Can't agree on Gordon Brown being 'discredited'. It would be a privilege, even now, for Holyrood to play host to a politician of his calibre. The reason nationalists get hot under the collar about him is because, like Alistair Darling, he's an accomplished, intelligent and passionate Scot who is heartfelt about Scotland being part of the UK. He played a blinder during the 2014 referendum IMHO. How did he 'sell out' over the Vow? IIRC he was the broker brought in by the Record to get the three main party leaders round the table and set the Smith commission in motion. He wasn't responsible for its implementation.Yeah, but it was pretty vague when it was announced, as though it was a last gasp idea before the vote becausr the polls were tightening - those things barely ever pan out with any substance.

Nothing to do with Brown at all, except maybe his own gullibility over the idea they'd be implemented.

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[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, but it was pretty vague when it was announced, as though it was a last gasp idea before the vote becausr the polls were tightening - those things barely ever pan out with any substance.

Nothing to do with Brown at all, except maybe his own gullibility over the idea they'd be implemented.

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If he was in any way duped then tomorrow will be very close to a proposal for a federal system?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221205/a90407423fdfbf069754da982b253d57.jpg
So it’s not the next Labour govt, it’s the one after that?


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[Stairway 2 7]

More of the details on today's announcement.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/04/labour-unveils-overhaul-constitution-replace-houes-of-lords

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/labour-to-set-out-plans-to-save-the-union-with-enhanced-powers-for-scotland-and-the-abolition-of-the-house-of-lords-3941486

Doesn’t sound that promising so far. I’ll give benefit of doubt seen as the announcement is today and they might not have leaked all of it.


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[Jack]

One thing in Labour's favour is at least they propose things (even if some things appear to be joint with the tory party, like the vow and following celebrations).

The issue with this is because they are the perennial opposition none of these master plans ever see the light of day.

Another issue with Starmer is he's almost as bad as Boris doing U turns so there's a big question mark over his integrity.

[grunt]

One thing in Labour's favour is at least they propose things (even if some things appear to be joint with the tory party, like the vow and following celebrations).

The issue with this is because they are the perennial opposition none of these master plans ever see the light of day.

Another issue with Starmer is he's almost as bad as Boris doing U turns so there's a big question mark over his integrity.
So it's great that Labour suggest things, but they won't ever get done and their leader has no integrity.
That's not much of a sales pitch, if I'm honest.

[Crunchie]

I haven't voted Labour for 2 decades, the news about the HOL gets my vote back.

[Since90+2]

Abolishing the HOL will be a vote winner for Labour IMO.

They will romp the next election. The impact that has in Scotland is yet to be seen, as our politics has a different element. O

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221205/4796d03c287fcd71295aa079cb472526.jpg
Even the Scotsman thinks it’s window dressing.[emoji102]


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[grunt]

What he said in 2020 ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjNXJvkXgAMTezo?format=png&name=small

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221205/b7bd6da974d11598786ca0838faeb743.jpg

Two years in the making and that’s it? That’s Labour’s big plan to save the union? Surely not?
Hopefully there is more and I just haven’t found it yet?

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[cabbageandribs1875]

abolish the HoL's :faf::faf::faf: surely to god that doesn't fool adults ffs



has the degenerate auld goat Brown been going around threatening pensioners again, and telling them they won't get cancer treatment


has anyone asked his thoughts on the recent SC decision, probably not


toss him back in the crypt that he crawled out of

[Crunchie]

abolish the HoL's :faf::faf::faf: surely to god that doesn't fool adults ffs



has the degenerate auld goat Brown been going around threatening pensioners again, and telling them they won't get cancer treatment


has anyone asked his thoughts on the recent SC decision, probably not


toss him back in the crypt that he crawled out of
Are you capable of posting anything about anyone outwith the SNP without name calling :rolleyes:

[SHODAN]

House of Lords should be 100% elected with members split evenly across the four nations of the UK: 25% England, 25% Scotland, 25% Wales, 25% Northern Ireland. All elected using proportional representation or ranked voting. No bill put forward by the UK parliament can be approved without a majority in the upper house, or better still, a majority of the members of all four nations. Nation of equals, Brown. Put up or shut up.

Oh, and we can retroactively bill all the former Lords for their expenses. They can afford it.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221205/4796d03c287fcd71295aa079cb472526.jpg
Even the Scotsman thinks it’s window dressing.[emoji102]


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It's an interesting point they make there about Lab's attitude to devolution. I think it was always designed to be Lab at both ends and they seem to be making the same mistake again. It's actually an interesting hypothetical what would have happened if we'd had Lab at Holyrood struggling through the 12 years of Tory UK gov. We might actually be closer to Indy than we are now.

[Ozyhibby]

Any Labour types able to point out the game changing union saving bits from Brown’s review today that I might be missing? Two years of work surely produced more than I can see?


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Are you capable of posting anything about anyone outwith the SNP without name calling :rolleyes:

oh look, mr Hypocrite is back :rolleyes: every guise you've ever used on here has name called

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221205/c49dbcc8b748142bccbf838ae649520d.jpg


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[ronaldo7]

Keir starmer has asserted today that a return to the single market would not help economic growth.

What planet is this guy living on.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/3947977/gordon-brown-constitution-overhaul/

Brown says we are getting his reforms whether we want them or not.


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[ronaldo7]

Any Labour types able to point out the game changing union saving bits from Brown’s review today that I might be missing? Two years of work surely produced more than I can see?


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They're going to allow us to run the buroo, without employment law being devolved of course.

Joined up thinking. I think not.

[Crunchie]

oh look, mr Hypocrite is back :rolleyes: every guise you've ever used on here has name called
Grow up old man

[hibsbollah]

Keir starmer has asserted today that a return to the single market would not help economic growth.

What planet is this guy living on.

He doesn’t think that.
He knows that everyone knows he doesn’t think that.
His analytics people know that he has a 20%+ polling lead based on a strategy which has ‘worked’, in that it’s corresponded with their opponents shooting themselves in the face multiple times.
And people no longer really mind if their politicians lie anymore. It’s just expected.

[ronaldo7]

He doesn’t think that.
He knows that everyone knows he doesn’t think that.
His analytics people know that he has a 20%+ polling lead based on a strategy which has ‘worked’, in that it’s corresponded with their opponents shooting themselves in the face multiple times.
And people no longer really mind if their politicians lie anymore. It’s just expected.

That's some journey he's been on from the DPP to liar in chief.

He can't just keep telling people things they know to be untrue by every measure since we left the EU.

[hibsbollah]

That's some journey he's been on from the DPP to liar in chief.

He can't just keep telling people things they know to be untrue by every measure since we left the EU.

I think Covid, fuel and food price rises and Ukraine have been convenient for 😞Tory (and a few Labour) Brexiteers, who don’t read the sources you and I probably read and havent automatically made that connection between Brexit and the recession we are living through. The polling is clear that that is now changing, over 60% now think Brexit was a mistake. This is the hardest Brexit imaginable, almost unthinkable in 2016. Sadly nobody that’s going to get elected is saying this in the Labour Party. And if they did, they’d be purged. Despite about 70% of members and MPs being pro-EU. It’s a strange, duplicitous situation.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think Covid, fuel and food price rises and Ukraine have been convenient for 😞Tory (and a few Labour) Brexiteers, who don’t read the sources you and I probably read and havent automatically made that connection between Brexit and the recession we are living through. The polling is clear that that is now changing, over 60% now think Brexit was a mistake. This is the hardest Brexit imaginable, almost unthinkable in 2016. Sadly nobody that’s going to get elected is saying this in the Labour Party. And if they did, they’d be purged. Despite about 70% of members and MPs being pro-EU. It’s a strange, duplicitous situation.

An indictment of what our politics has become that it's easier/considered more productive for Starmer to parrot a blatant lie than to attempt a nuanced answer that might give the Tories some attack lines. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-an-exit-route-on-road-to-independence-3941359

Back on message from the Scotsman without mentioning anything that is actually proposed in Browns’ review.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/3947977/gordon-brown-constitution-overhaul/

Brown says we are getting his reforms whether we want them or not.


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Where you get something that we don't want, instead of something we voted for, and want.

Democracy eh.

[Kato]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-an-exit-route-on-road-to-independence-3941359

Back on message from the Scotsman without mentioning anything that is actually proposed in Browns’ review.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAll those "enhanceds" and they don't get a mention.

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[He's here!]

abolish the HoL's :faf::faf::faf: surely to god that doesn't fool adults ffs



has the degenerate auld goat Brown been going around threatening pensioners again, and telling them they won't get cancer treatment


has anyone asked his thoughts on the recent SC decision, probably not


toss him back in the crypt that he crawled out of

That's poor stuff. No need surely for such gratuitous, below the belt comments.

[cabbageandribs1875]

That's poor stuff. No need surely for such gratuitous, below the belt comments.


:kettle:

[Ozyhibby]

Only 4pm and Labours big announcement has already been relegated to third item on the Radio Scotland news. You’d think after a two years wait it would have made a much bigger impact?


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[hibsbollah]

Only 4pm and Labours big announcement has already been relegated to third item on the Radio Scotland news. You’d think after a two years wait it would have made a much bigger impact?


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Are you saying BBC Scotland has inbuilt anti-unionist party bias?

[Ozyhibby]

Are you saying BBC Scotland has inbuilt anti-unionist party bias?

I think it’s just that there isn’t anything to report other than changes in London. Nothing in it at all for Scotland.


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[He's here!]

:kettle:

I've no qualms about laying it on thick when it comes to what I see as valid criticism but I draw the line at unfounded, ageist insults.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think it’s just that there isn’t anything to report other than changes in London. Nothing in it at all for Scotland.


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wait a minute


old man Brown 2014

Scotland should lead, not leave the UK



Brownhog day 5TH Dec 2022

He says: "I think we Scots should play our part in building the Britain of the future."

[hibsbollah]

I've no qualms about laying it on thick when it comes to what I see as valid criticism but I draw the line at unfounded, ageist insults.

As a signed up member of the coffin dodger club I agree.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I've no qualms about laying it on thick when it comes to what I see as valid criticism but I draw the line at unfounded, ageist insults.

:kettle:

[Hibrandenburg]

I've no qualms about laying it on thick when it comes to what I see as valid criticism but I draw the line at unfounded, ageist insults.

Like many on here, you draw the lines where you want them and push the boundaries where you don't.

[He's here!]

:kettle:

As far as I'm aware I've never deliberately insulted anyone on here, unless anyone's thin skinned enough to find my anti-independence views insulting.

[Hibrandenburg]

As far as I'm aware I've never deliberately insulted anyone on here, unless anyone's thin skinned enough to find my anti-independence views insulting.

cabbageandribs1875 didn't insult anyone on here either, at least nobody not looking to get offended.

[cabbageandribs1875]

As far as I'm aware I've never deliberately insulted anyone on here, unless anyone's thin skinned enough to find my anti-independence views insulting.


what are you on about ? i didn't even say that, YOU started with the "gratuitous" crap cause i made a comment against yer wee Buddy Broon, i'm now saying you do the exact same about our first minister and members of the green party, i always skip you and one other labour members posts because of the insults, you can't find one decent thing to say about nicola sturgeon, i have no desire whatsoever to carry on quoting you here but i can assure you the pot & kettle emoji suits you down to a tee, what's really up with you ? is it because you can't spout the insults against SNP and green politicians on the Scottish independence thread now(which YOU played a large part in imo) and that trans thread, you slate absolute everything about a Government that was voted in by a lot of voters on here, your constant insults on both Nicola Sturgeon/ SNP / The Greens then you go in a wee huffy cause i called brown a degenerate auld goat, again i'll post >>>>> :kettle: own it

try using the ignore function

[grunt]

We're going to get shut down again, aren't we?

[hibsbollah]

We're going to get shut down again, aren't we?

There’s some embarrassing snowflakery going on here :tee hee:

[He's here!]

what are you on about ? i didn't even say that, YOU started with the "gratuitous" crap cause i made a comment against yer wee Buddy Broon, i'm now saying you do the exact same about our first minister and members of the green party, i always skip you and one other labour members posts because of the insults, you can't find one decent thing to say about nicola sturgeon, i have no desire whatsoever to carry on quoting you here but i can assure you the pot & kettle emoji suits you down to a tee, what's really up with you ? is it because you can't spout the insults against SNP and green politicians on the Scottish independence thread now(which YOU played a large part in imo) and that trans thread, you slate absolute everything about a Government that was voted in by a lot of voters on here, your constant insults on both Nicola Sturgeon/ SNP / The Greens then you go in a wee huffy cause i called brown a degenerate auld goat, again i'll post >>>>> :kettle: own it

try using the ignore function

I have next to nothing positive to say about Nicola Sturgeon but criticising her's not the same as insulting her.

[ronaldo7]

I've no qualms about laying it on thick when it comes to what I see as valid criticism but I draw the line at unfounded, ageist insults.

Aye, but what about the Goats?

[grunt]

I have next to nothing positive to say about Nicola Sturgeon but criticising her's not the same as insulting her.
I know this is the Labour Party thread, but this comment struck me as rather strange. Do you really have nothing positive to say about Sturgeon? I can't imagine any reasonable person having this position. I've spoken to her, heard her speak, and she comes across to me as a completely genuine individual. So I wonder why you have nothing positive to say about her. Seems odd.

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1599851913607991296?s=20&t=Q-s5i-i_CdxMpF4Y44aKog


There is a majority for change in Scotland and across the UK.

Labour will deliver that change.Proud to launch Labour’s plan today with @Keir_Starmer (https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer) and @GordonBrown (https://twitter.com/GordonBrown)


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjPQ1X4XEA8eifd?format=jpg&name=small

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1599851913607991296?s=20&t=Q-s5i-i_CdxMpF4Y44aKog



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjPQ1X4XEA8eifd?format=jpg&name=small

Anas certainly has to be the most patronising of all politicians and it’s a very crowded field. He’s constantly telling Scotland what it thinks even if election results indicate the opposite. For a guy who only got 21% of the vote at the last election, I’m surprised there isn’t a little bit more room for listening?


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[Jack]

Anas certainly has to be the most patronising of all politicians and it’s a very crowded field. He’s constantly telling Scotland what it thinks even if election results indicate the opposite. For a guy who only got 21% of the vote at the last election, I’m surprised there isn’t a little bit more room for listening?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Labour don't listen. They dictate. Or they'd like to.

[Moulin Yarns]

Only 4pm and Labours big announcement has already been relegated to third item on the Radio Scotland news. You’d think after a two years wait it would have made a much bigger impact?


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To be fair to radio Scotland they had obviously planned to do the A9 death toll as their main story because John Beattie was in Inverness.

[He's here!]

I know this is the Labour Party thread, but this comment struck me as rather strange. Do you really have nothing positive to say about Sturgeon? I can't imagine any reasonable person having this position. I've spoken to her, heard her speak, and she comes across to me as a completely genuine individual. So I wonder why you have nothing positive to say about her. Seems odd.

It's her politics not her personality I have next to nothing positive to say about. I've no idea what she's like in private. However, the fact she leads a party whose reason for existence is to break up something I'd hate to see lost makes it pretty obvious why I struggle for positives.

I would say she worked hard and did well to attain the position of FM and that on the increasingly rare (and now seemmingly all but abandoned) instances when she focuses on governing Scotland rather than constitutional upheaval that her government's welfare/child poverty payments are laudable and making a difference. However, as someone who works in schools I find her promise to be judged on her education record disappointingly empty, while her current determination to drive through the GRA irrespective of women's concerns I find extraordinary.

I could go on (and on) but as you say this isn't the thread for it.

[James310]

A good paper from Labour, a simple and straightforward message for elections as well. Vote for us to get rid of the Tory's and for change in the UK. They have a great track record in delivering change as well, see Scottish and Welsh Parliament, London and English majors, Good Friday Agreement, FOI implementation and so on.

The last poll had them at 31% and the SNP at 41%. If they can knock a few % points off the SNP and another few from the Tory's it's getting very close.

[degenerated]

To be fair to radio Scotland they had obviously planned to do the A9 death toll as their main story because John Beattie was in Inverness.Did they mention the opposition to speed cameras from unionist parties?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did they mention the opposition to speed cameras from unionist parties?

Can't believe I'm going to say this but Murdo Fraser is one of the loudest voices in favour of the dualling and it's all to do with the safety of the road.

People interviewed mentioned the speed cameras, the confusing 50mph signs for hgvs that drivers not familiar with the road think applies to everyone, and the constant change from single to dual carriageway and back as part of the problem, but living beside it and using it regularly I think it's driver impatience that is mostly to blame.

[Ozyhibby]

A good paper from Labour, a simple and straightforward message for elections as well. Vote for us to get rid of the Tory's and for change in the UK. They have a great track record in delivering change as well, see Scottish and Welsh Parliament, London and English majors, Good Friday Agreement, FOI implementation and so on.

The last poll had them at 31% and the SNP at 41%. If they can knock a few % points off the SNP and another few from the Tory's it's getting very close.

Congrats. Yours is probably the most positive take on it across the whole UK. Given the lukewarm response even in England I doubt most of it makes it to the manifesto and from there even less will make it into legislation.
Which is a real shame because I always felt that all Scotland needed was to be able to run the job centre and enter into a student exchange programme. A student exchange programme we were actually in when the review started.
It’s a real game changer. Nobody is going to feel the need for Indy with that carrot dangled in front of them.


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[James310]

Congrats. Yours is probably the most positive take on it across the whole UK. Given the lukewarm response even in England I doubt most of it makes it to the manifesto and from there even less will make it into legislation.
Which is a real shame because I always felt that all Scotland needed was to be able to run the job centre and enter into a student exchange programme. A student exchange programme we were actually in when the review started.
It’s a real game changer. Nobody is going to feel the need for Indy with that carrot dangled in front of them.


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Nobody is suggesting it will stop everyone voting Indy, all it needs to do is persuade a few % of soft SNP voters to go back to Labour and a few more % of Tory or Lib Dem voters and it's job done.

I know which party is going to have an easier time explaining things at a General Election as it's a simple and easily digested message which is what the majority of voters want. The SNP message is a de facto referendum so having to answer questions on currency and hard borders and pensions, while Labour just say vote for us to get rid of the Tory's and change within the UK.

[ronaldo7]

Congrats. Yours is probably the most positive take on it across the whole UK. Given the lukewarm response even in England I doubt most of it makes it to the manifesto and from there even less will make it into legislation.
Which is a real shame because I always felt that all Scotland needed was to be able to run the job centre and enter into a student exchange programme. A student exchange programme we were actually in when the review started.
It’s a real game changer. Nobody is going to feel the need for Indy with that carrot dangled in front of them.


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Alternate views are available. This guy was on Scotland tonight.

For all the talk of decentralising power across Britain, most of the devolution strengthens England and there isn’t that much for Scotland - Akash Paun of Institutute for Govt confirms what we all knew: Gordon Brown’s xmas present for Scotland is another empty box.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1600049215564128257

[Ozyhibby]

Impartial views are available. This guy was on Scotland tonight.

For all the talk of decentralising power across Britain, most of the devolution strengthens England and there isn’t that much for Scotland - Akash Paun of Institutute for Govt confirms what we all knew: Gordon Brown’s xmas present for Scotland is another empty box.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1600049215564128257

I think for English voters there is some interesting aspects. Not convinced they will get all they are being promised but there are things in there that will appeal. For Scotland it was just a whole pile of nothing.
The Labour offer to Scots seems to be the status quo but we will tell you it’s change.


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[ronaldo7]

Ian Murray getting ripped a new one.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1600046647702085632

[grunt]

A good paper from Labour, a simple and straightforward message for elections as well. Vote for us to get rid of the Tory's and for change in the UK. They have a great track record in delivering change as well, see Scottish and Welsh Parliament, London and English majors, Good Friday Agreement, FOI implementation and so on.
Bless.

Your "great track record" is all of 25 years old, isn't it? I don't see the current leadership as having anything like the foresight or political skills of the Blair and Brown years.

Starmer reneging on his promise of two years ago regarding #indyref2 and reneging on his commitment to nationalisation of rail and utilities. Not to mention his plans to continue with the Tories' hard Brexit. Integrity? Not this Labour Party.

[grunt]

Ian Murray getting ripped a new one.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1600046647702085632Heard that earlier! :agree: It sounded like he was arguing for Scottish independence.

[hibsbollah]

Ian Murray getting ripped a new one.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1600046647702085632

I have crossed swords with that man more than once, so im not a fan of him either:greengrin But I thought he dealt with that interview quite well. The biggest stumble was when he was challenged about HoL reform at the end and he responded 'well actually its been in our manifesto for about the last hundred years...'

Which probably isnt the best reply if you want to give people confidence you're going to deliver it.

[Stairway 2 7]

An elected second chamber will apply and appeal to Scots too. They went a huge way to getting rid of hereditary peers last time in power but need to go fully elected. Banning mps having second jobs is also huge and will be welcomed.

Once again not much detail on Scotland. Suggestion of Scotland having borrowing powers. Erasmus would be great I really hope that comes back.

[JeMeSouviens]

The paper is here if anyone feels like checking it out for themselves: https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Commission-on-the-UKs-Future.pdf

I've had a brief skim. So far, on the positive side I think the analysis/critique of what's wrong with the UK is pretty good (or at least I agree with it if that's not the same thing :wink:). I'm not so encouraged on the solutions. It's all a bit fiddly, piecemeal and asymmetric. I'm gutted they're not even trying to go for PR.

Be interesting to see what/how much gets to their manifesto and of course, how much of that survives the onslaught of vested interest it's going to face when they bring it to parliament. But, having said that, reform has to get started somewhere and at least this might do some limited good. Not seeing it saving the UK in the longer term if that's your bag.

[ronaldo7]

An elected second chamber will apply and appeal to Scots too. They went a huge way to getting rid of hereditary peers last time in power but need to go fully elected. Banning mps having second jobs is also huge and will be welcomed.

Once again not much detail on Scotland. Suggestion of Scotland having borrowing powers. Erasmus would be great I really hope that comes back.

It will for most MPs. Not sure David Lammy will be happy though.

I thought Scottish Labour had proposed full borrowing powers for Scotland. It seems to have been watered down.

[WhileTheChief..]

An elected second chamber will apply and appeal to Scots too. They went a huge way to getting rid of hereditary peers last time in power but need to go fully elected. Banning mps having second jobs is also huge and will be welcomed.

Once again not much detail on Scotland. Suggestion of Scotland having borrowing powers. Erasmus would be great I really hope that comes back.

Is there a danger that a fully elected second chamber politicises things more?

More elections, more division, everything becomes about the party instead of the policy?

I’m not sure what the alternatives are, but could we end up with a second chamber looking like the Commons? Is that really much better than what we have now?

[Since90+2]

Is there a danger that a fully elected second chamber politicises things more?

More elections, more division, everything becomes about the party instead of the policy?

I’m not sure what the alternatives are, but could we end up with a second chamber looking like the Commons? Is that really much better than what we have now?

Yes.

At least it will be democratically elected, and that can only be better than what we currently have.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there a danger that a fully elected second chamber politicises things more?

More elections, more division, everything becomes about the party instead of the policy?

I’m not sure what the alternatives are, but could we end up with a second chamber looking like the Commons? Is that really much better than what we have now?

A million times better. You can’t take the politics out of politics. Nor should you. Democracy can be messy but it’s better than everything else.
Getting rid of the lords is about the only benefit to Scotland from yesterday but I’m sceptical that they are serious about it. There is no plan for what replaces it which tells me that it’s likely to be watered down.


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[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t know enough about the Lords, but doesn’t it have a lot of retired professionals from industry, arts, science etc in there.

I’m thinking of ex teachers, consultants, military folks etc.? Experts in their respective fields, these sorts of people?

I want that. I think that’s much preferable to more career minded politicians.

You can see it now. Emptied from the Commons, so they’ll stand in the new 2nd chamber.

Until someone comes up with a decent alternative, there’s no point bumping gums about scrapping what we’ve got.

[hibsbollah]

Is there a danger that a fully elected second chamber politicises things more?



Yes there is that danger. A properly democratic new second chamber would need to be as free of party politics as possible.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes there is that danger. A properly democratic new second chamber would need to be as free of party politics as possible.

That’s fantasy stuff.


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[Santa Cruz]

I don’t know enough about the Lords, but doesn’t it have a lot of retired professionals from industry, arts, science etc in there.

I’m thinking of ex teachers, consultants, military folks etc.? Experts in their respective fields, these sorts of people?

I want that. I think that’s much preferable to more career minded politicians.

You can see it now. Emptied from the Commons, so they’ll stand in the new 2nd chamber.

Until someone comes up with a decent alternative, there’s no point bumping gums about scrapping what we’ve got.

Alan Sugar once said he didn't understand a lot of the details in the Bill's he was asked to scrutinise and then vote through. You could argue the same of MP's :greengrin The difference is the MP's are accountable to the electorate, if they get it wrong we get the option to get rid, that's not the case with the HoL's. A second chamber plays an important role, the members should be there because the public have decided. We are a democratic country, there should be no place for cronyism.

[Moulin Yarns]

You can see it now. Emptied from the Commons, so they’ll stand in the new 2nd chamber.


That's already part of the HOL.