The future of the Labour Party

[Fife-Hibee]

There's a good post by one of the admins on the main board about how 'debate' in social media and on increasingly 'old-fashioned' message boards like this one tends to be dominated by those for whom unwelcome opinions must be shut down (with a smattering of abuse often thrown in) rather than constructively engaged with. I was put in mind of that while watching Panorama last night and thinking, as you say, how similar Labour's approach to their anti-Semitism crisis has been.

What's an "unwelcome opinion" in your view? Something you don't particularly agree with?

I have to say, i'm not really surprised to see the posters I am on here, pushing the "Corbyn is anti-semite" narrative. As it's the same posters who didn't want him as leader of the Labour Party to begin with.

It's easy to believe in a narrative with next to no factual basis, if it suits your own agenda. What's harder is to challenge a narrative, even when it doesn't.

[GORDONSMITH7]

I didn't see any tears on last night's programme, faked or genuine, which kind of enhanced my respect for those who spoke out. To compare them to that twat above is poor stuff IMHO.

You appear to have some expertise in TV production values judging by your comments and if so then maybe you're better placed to judge the programme than me. However, I'm only expressing my opinion about what I watched and not expecting you to agree with it if you saw things differently. I get the impression, though, that what comes across as your boiling fury towards the BBC and, to a slightly lesser extent, the state of Israel (and possibly Jews as a whole judging by your more recent posts), means that the programme was flawed in your eyes from the off.

This was the most biased Anti Corbyn and Labour Party attempt so far. The anchor guy with microphone opposite the disaffected ex employees were not challenged

once with counter evidence or critical analysis. They mentioned Jackie Walker as black activist, expelled from the Labour Party, it clearly never suited the agenda to say black,JEWISH activist. Which supports Williams statement. He said.....

What did Chris Williamson actually say at the meeting in question.......well this.....however the above folk who know nowt will echo he said anti semetic things cause I was told so and listened to that. So there, must ne true.

“The party that has done more to stand up to racism is now being demonised as a racist, bigoted party.

“I have got to say I think our party’s response has been partly responsible for that because in my opinion… we have backed off too much, we have given too much gr


ound, we have been too apologetic.”

A position as a Labour Party member for 50 years totally support. Anti Semitic my arse. Being pro a Palestinian State and opposing the apartheid Israel government, has bizarrely now morphed into being Anti Semetic.
This with other manufatured attacks are for one reason and one reason only, and that that is to prevent the election of a new Government committed to re distribution of wealth, nationalisation of the pathetic railways and utilities etc.

Watch this space. If there is a suggestion of a possible left coalition between the LP and SNP in Parliament the same vile attack will be lauched by the UK Establishment and their kept rubbish media on Sturgeon, et al, which will make the project fear before the Scottish Referendum look like childs play, though I suspect the likes of Machiavellian Blairite Tom Watson would be involved.
There are Blairite MP's who would rather see a Tory Goverment than a left wing one with Socialist policies.

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190711/f9d5ab75db45c5174a78e8da30729508.jpg
That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190711/f9d5ab75db45c5174a78e8da30729508.jpg
That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.

:faf:

Is it the lack of a nose? I have nothing against large noses. Being the proud owner of an aquiline nose myself. :smug:

[GORDONSMITH7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190711/f9d5ab75db45c5174a78e8da30729508.jpg
That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bomber says..... Is Williamson MP anti Semitic by this quote Oz lad. Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Of course, this is someone with no agenda at all.

It's not like she's eyeing up the prize of leadership or anything.

:faf:

Of course amigo. The role of Deputy Leader is to support the Leader of the Party according to the Party Constitution. Hehas done everything at evry turn to oppose the Leader. Disgraceful. The three pronged attacks have been non stop every day for 4 years since his democratic election by the Telegraph, Mail, Express, the ****,BBC and Sky News. The vitreol does not stop there the so called left Guardian
And Independent have been disgraceful. Oh well why should I expect less?

Attack two, Blairite MPs who put public letters against
Corbyn supporter Williamson. The rump of Blairite opportunists, who have tried 2 Chicken Coups and defeated by members like me who arnae taken by thier crap.

All the time, retired in 2009 and been able to see this ***** going on from the guys election.
No mention of the letter from promonent Jews to the
Guardian askingfor Williamson to be reinstate.

Complaints next day from the British Board of Jewery. Tbe Guardian withdrew it and when I accessed it...nowt, nowt, nowt..Democracy at work in UK.
.

[G B Young]

Labour's reaction to the programme sums up its failure to deal with this problem. They have, as I heard someone say earlier, simply continued to attack the messenger rather than confront the message. The 'nothing to see here' nature of the responses they sent to Panorama smack of an ongoing bid to simply shut the conversation down. To dismiss those who showed the courage to speak out as nothing more than embittered former employees shows a sneering lack of interest in truly engaging with an issue that has dogged the party for Corbyn's entire tenure. Those whose testimonies we heard certainly didn't come across as ex-staffers with an axe to grind. As I mentioned earlier in the thread a number of them actually came in to work for Labour under Corbyn, yet they clearly became appalled by what they'd bought into and stated their case on Panorama with genuine sincerity and emotion.

It's to be hoped that while Labour will do their best to diminish the programme, the ongoing statutory investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission will have the power to access the kind of information the BBC could not and ensure that the poisonous culture within a party that was once a welcoming home for Jewish people is fully exposed.

An update on that:

https://twitter.com/JewishLabour/status/1149327973146923009

Just another 30 or so liars in the eyes of the Labour leadership I imagine...

[heretoday]

There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.

[G B Young]

There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.

If it's a fact then I guess it's case closed! You could have spared the EHRC all the hassle of their investigation if you'd brought this to light earlier :wink:

More seriously, I think it's fair to say that the nature of the complaints which have prompted this investigation go beyond simply disagreeing with Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of Israel. A culture where Jewish members feel unwelcome in their own party is something that clearly needs addressed in a more effective manner than Labour currently appear to be deploying.

[Fife-Hibee]

There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.

You're correct. It makes absolutely no sense for Labour to be "anti-Jewish". It's just convenient to fool the masses into believing that their leader is, as he isn't a member of the inner circle who effectively do all of the thinking for us. https://cdn.slidesharecdn.com/profile-photo-sattvtocom-48x48.jpg?cb=1523182203

https://i.ibb.co/MBrzYZw/bbcjob.jpg

[Fife-Hibee]

More seriously, I think it's fair to say that the nature of the complaints which have prompted this investigation go beyond simply disagreeing with Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of Israel.

Does it? Because every day, more and more links are being drawn between those complaining and their connections with the Israeli state. There's vested interests at play here. The policies of the Labour Party don't sit well with Israel. That much is clear.

[G B Young]

Does it? Because every day, more and more links are being drawn between those complaining and their connections with the Israeli state. There's vested interests at play here. The policies of the Labour Party don't sit well with Israel. That much is clear.

But it's well wide of the mark to say it's a 'fact' that Labour doesn't have an issue with anti-Semitism. Corbyn himself was compelled to admit it almost a year ago (describing it as 'a real problem'), while Formby and McDonnell, to name just two from among his inner circle, have acknowledged as much in recent weeks:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

The watchdog investigation is not so much concerned with whether the issue exists within the Labour party but how they have responded to it.

[Mibbes Aye]

There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.

I cant agree with that.

Long before the state of Israel was even close to coming into existence, Labour had a murky history of portraying Jews as imperialists, capitalists and warmongerers intent on fostering conflict to reap vast profits. Even Keir Hardie had form for it.

I can’t remember which poster it is but there’s at least one who bangs on about the Rothschilds and that’s very much part of that trope.

While that highly-visible anti-semitism has faded to some extent, there are still clear stereotypes and labelling going on, take Corbyn’s comments about not understanding irony as an example.

There is obviously a lot of anger against the state of Israel and its behaviour towards Palestinians. In many respects it resembles the anger against apartheid in South Africa.

That anger or hatred does go beyond the actions of Israel the state however and does creep into anti-semitism and no one seems to deny that, and Corbyn et al simply say “Nothing to do with me, guv”.

The EHRC are using statutory powers to carry out their own investigation, something they don’t do lightly. There’s no way that would be happening if there weren’t credible and sufficient grounds to hold the Labour Party to account.

[Fife-Hibee]

My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://twitter.com/CorbynistaTeen/status/1032652553299943424

[G B Young]

My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.

Corbyn subsequently apologised for backing the mural and said: "I sincerely regret I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. The defence of free speech cannot be used as a justification for the promotion of anti-Semitism."

The artist himself confirmed that the mural was intended to portray Jewish bankers.

The mocking stance you continue to take on this issue does nothing to deflect from the opinion expressed by others that you harbour anti-Jewish views yourself.

[marinello59]

My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.

Your view of what constitutes anti-Semitic imagery seems to be at odds with that of Corbyn himself . For the record I don’t think he is anti Semitic at all.
Shifting the definition of it as you are doing here doesn’t put you in the clear though. It achieves the opposite.

[Smartie]

I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn subsequently apologised for backing the mural and said: "I sincerely regret I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. The defence of free speech cannot be used as a justification for the promotion of anti-Semitism."

The artist himself confirmed that the mural was intended to portray Jewish bankers.

The mocking stance you continue to take on this issue does nothing to deflect from the opinion expressed by others that you harbour anti-Jewish views yourself.

Of course he apologised. Because he would have been absolutely hounded by the media had he reacted any differently. The reason he didn't associate the image with anti-semitism, is because he isn't anti-semitic. Only an anti-semitic person would assume that all Jewish followers look that way.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your view of what constitutes anti-Semitic imagery seems to be at odds with that of Corbyn himself . For the record I don’t think he is anti Semitic at all.
Shifting the definition of it as you are doing here doesn’t put you in the clear though. It achieves the opposite.

Why, because he apologised? What else was he going to say without being skewered by our state media?

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.

I would agree with most of that. However, the problem with the more "streetwise" politicians is that they almost always turn out to be an "in it for themselves" disaster for the country.

The issue isn't Corbyn. It's the media culture in this country that pretty much ensures that there can never be any real alternative in place. They'll flame anyone who offers any glimmer of hope of making real actual changes.

[Pete]

I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.

I keep hearing this but I’m not convinced. It could also be argued that things like media manipulation, spin and the dark arts are now becoming less important as we enter a new age where social media is king. How else could we explain how someone with no style whatsoever has increased Labour membership and votes in the face of such relentless media and establishment hostility? Surely substance is now a factor.
Of the total votes won by a theoretical centrist, media friendly Labour Party, how many would be lost from present voters who would once again become hacked off with politics? All we’ve really had as realistic choices for the past 30 years is slick people in suits who present different versions of the same neoliberal, market led solution...because that’s the way it is and the only way it can be.
I believe politics is in a state of flux right now and it’s difficult to tell what will happen. We can point to history but that can be misleading in this day and age. The next general election will be interesting to say the least.

[Smartie]

I keep hearing this but I’m not convinced. It could also be argued that things like media manipulation, spin and the dark arts are now becoming less important as we enter a new age where social media is king. How else could we explain how someone with no style whatsoever has increased Labour membership and votes in the face of such relentless media and establishment hostility? Surely substance is now a factor.
Of the total votes won by a theoretical centrist, media friendly Labour Party, how many would be lost from present voters who would once again become hacked off with politics? All we’ve really had as realistic choices for the past 30 years is slick people in suits who present different versions of the same neoliberal, market led solution...because that’s the way it is and the only way it can be.
I believe politics is in a state of flux right now and it’s difficult to tell what will happen. We can point to history but that can be misleading in this day and age. The next general election will be interesting to say the least.

I'm not suggesting that he has to sell out altogether and pretend to be something that he is not.

The media re unlikely to be friendly to him, if they're not going to do him any favours then he needs to do himself a few more - he makes it all too easy to paint him as an IRA sympathiser, anti-semitic or any other number of slurs which blight his cause and case.

The two main issues that have blighted the Labour party in recent years have been Brexit and the anti-semitism scandal. He has been far to slow on the uptake to recognise that Brexit represent opportunity every bit as much as threat to the Labour Party, if only he could have made a decisive standpoint earlier. The anti-semitism scandal is farcical and it should never, ever have been allowed to develop into something as harmful - what Corbyn is guilty as sin of is allowing escalation of a matter that should have been snuffed out immediately.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm not suggesting that he has to sell out altogether and pretend to be something that he is not.

The media re unlikely to be friendly to him, if they're not going to do him any favours then he needs to do himself a few more - he makes it all too easy to paint him as an IRA sympathiser, anti-semitic or any other number of slurs which blight his cause and case.

The two main issues that have blighted the Labour party in recent years have been Brexit and the anti-semitism scandal. He has been far to slow on the uptake to recognise that Brexit represent opportunity every bit as much as threat to the Labour Party, if only he could have made a decisive standpoint earlier. The anti-semitism scandal is farcical and it should never, ever have been allowed to develop into something as harmful - what Corbyn is guilty as sin of is allowing escalation of a matter that should have been snuffed out immediately.

What could Corbyn have possibly done to snuff it out? He can't force MSM outlets to abandon a narrative that they're fixated on. He has already came out and said that neither him or the party are anti-semitic. What else can he do? There are clearly people in the party who want to empty him out. The same people who never wanted him in and they're prepared to give the media as much ammo as necessary to ensure that it happens.

Honestly, I commend the guy for hanging in there. If he was really so weak, he'd have been long gone.

[marinello59]

Why, because he apologised? What else was he going to say without being skewered by our state media?

He apologised because he realised the image was anti -Semitic and unlike you he isn’t anti-semitic.

[Fife-Hibee]

He apologised because he realised the image was anti -Semitic and unlike you he isn’t anti-semitic.

In what way is the image anti-Semitic? I didn't see jewish symbolism anywhere on that image. Unless of course, you believe all jewish people have long crooked noses, which seems a little anti-Semitic to me.

[marinello59]

In what way is the image anti-Semitic? I didn't see jewish symbolism anywhere on that image. Unless of course, you believe all jewish people have long crooked noses, which seems a little anti-Semitic to me.

Don’t try any twist it round. I’ve seen the same argument used to deny golliwogs are racist.

[Fife-Hibee]

Don’t try any twist it round. I’ve seen the same argument used to deny golliwogs are racist.

Why shouldn't I twist it around when it quite clearly can be?

Tell me, why do you think jewish people all have big crooked noses?

Comparing it to the golliwog argument won't work either. Religion and race are two different things. There's no reason for all Jewish people to share similar physical features that can be exaggerated.

[marinello59]

Why shouldn't I twist it around when it quite clearly can be?

Tell me, why do you think jewish people all have big crooked noses?

Where did I say I that? Sad stuff again from you.
Most reasonable people, including Corbyn himself, would see it as anti-Semitic. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated a complete ignorance of what that is.

[Fife-Hibee]

Where did I say I that? Sad stuff again from you.
Most reasonable people, including Corbyn himself, would see it as anti-Semitic. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated a complete ignorance of what that is.

Corbyn didn't see it as anti-Semitic. He gave a stock apology for the media when the true anti-semites came out and associated an image with rich fat cat bankers with large crooked noses with the Jewish faith. A comparison that Corbyn just wasn't anti-semitic enough to notice.

[marinello59]

Corbyn didn't see it as anti-Semitic. He gave a stock apology for the media when the true anti-semites came out and associated an image with rich fat cat bankers with large crooked noses with the Jewish faith. A comparison that Corbyn just wasn't anti-semitic enough to notice.

Wow.
Classic Trumpspeak. Somebody asked you yesterday if you actually believe what you post. It was a good question.

[Fife-Hibee]

Wow.
Classic Trumpspeak. Somebody asked you yesterday if you actually believe what you post. It was a good question.

Classic retort from you. Can't tackle the point so take the man instead. You know what i'm saying is correct. You just don't like to be corrected.

[marinello59]

Classic retort from you. Can't tackle the point so take the man instead. You know what i'm saying is correct. You just don't like to be corrected.

It’s far from playing the man. You are yet again deploying Trump like attempts to defend the indefensible.
Here are the facts. Corbyn made a mistake and when it was pointed out to him he clearly acknowledged that the image was anti-semetic and apologised for it. You are trying to twist those facts around to accuse anybody who agrees that the imagery was anti-Semitic as being ant-Semitic themselves. That just doesn’t make sense at all does it?
Trump is the least racist person around don’t you now. He told us that himself. Like I said, you are using Trump-speak.

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s far from playing the man. You are yet again deploying Trump like attempts to defend the indefensible.
Here are the facts. Corbyn made a mistake and when it was pointed out to him he clearly acknowledged that the image was anti-semetic and apologised for it. You are trying to twist those facts around to accuse anybody who agrees that the imagery was anti-Semitic as being ant-Semitic themselves. That just doesn’t make sense at all does it?
Trump is the least racist person around don’t you now. He told us that himself. Like I said, you are using Trump-speak.

Then i'll try again.

What was anti-semitic about the image? If you're so sure that it was anti-semitic, then surely you can explain to me what aspect of the image relates to followers of the Jewish faith in a negative way?

Then perhaps you can explain to me why it isn't anti-semitic to make that connection.

[marinello59]

Then i'll try again.

What was anti-semitic about the image? If you're so sure that it was anti-semitic, then surely you can explain to me what aspect of the image relates to followers of the Jewish faith in a negative way?

Then perhaps you can explain to me why it isn't anti-semitic to make that connection.

I know this goes against the grain for you but why don’t you do a bit of research in to the history of ant-Semitic imagery. That will clearly answer your question and I’m sure you will then see why Corbyn saw it that way.
Going by your argument he is anti-Semitic for saying that the image was which instantly collapses your defence of him from such allegations.

[Fife-Hibee]

I know this goes against the grain for you but why don’t you do a bit of research in to the history of ant-Semitic imagery. That will clearly answer your question and I’m sure you will then see why Corbyn saw it that way.

Nope. I want to know why you personally believe it to be anti-semitic. I'm giving you a chance to explain your view on this and why that is the case.

I'd also like to know how it isn't anti-semitic to associate a particular physical feature with followers of Judaism, when Judaism has nothing to do with a persons physical characteristics.

[marinello59]

Nope. I want to know why you personally believe it to be anti-semitic. I'm giving you a chance to explain your view on this and why that is the case.

I'd also like to know how it isn't anti-semitic to associate a particular physical feature with followers of Judaism, when Judaism has nothing to do with a persons physical characteristics.

You are right, it has nothing to do with personal characteristics. Which is why caricatures such as those are cruel and offensive to Jews who are the intended target. Maybe they are wrong about that though?

[Fife-Hibee]

You are right, it has nothing to do with personal characteristics. Which is why caricatures such as those are cruel and offensive to Jews who are the intended target. Maybe they are wrong about that though?

If Judaism has nothing to do with personal characteristics, then why would jewish people find it offensive or assume they were the intended target?

Are they offended everytime they watch The Simpsons as well?

[marinello59]

If Judaism has nothing to do with personal characteristics, then why would jewish people find it offensive or assume they were the intended target?

Are they offended everytime they watch The Simpsons as well?

I do hope you aren’t being serious with this one.

[Fife-Hibee]

I do hope you aren’t being serious with this one.

It's a perfectly legitimate point. My Burns is portrayed as a greedy, selfish, rich, evil, corporate man in a suit with crooked features. Not so different from the men depicted in the image that you're claiming is anti-semitic.

[Just Alf]

Car crash

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

It's a perfectly legitimate point. My Burns is portrayed as a greedy, selfish, rich, evil, corporate man in a suit with crooked features. Not so different from the men depicted in the image that you're claiming is anti-semitic.

Actually I don’t think it’s only me who sees it as anti-Semitic. If the test is would most reasonable see it as such them I’m fairly confident it would pass.

[Fife-Hibee]

Actually I don’t think it’s only me who sees it as anti-Semitic. If the test is would most reasonable see it as such them I’m fairly confident it would pass.

So old men in suits is anti-Semitic to most reasonable people? Gotcha.

[marinello59]

So old men in suits is anti-Semitic to most reasonable people? Gotcha.

Thats not what I said.
That’s the second time you have tried to put words in to my mouth. I’ll just leave this here now, your posts on this subject speak volumes.

[Pete]

Guys stop it. You’re slowing the site down.

[Fife-Hibee]

Thats not what I said.
That’s the second time you have tried to put words in to my mouth. I’ll just leave this here now, your posts on this subject speak volumes.

Then what are you saying? I'm genuinely trying to make sense of this. I keep looking at the image and i'm just not seeing this anti-jewish message anywhere. I see old guys in suits sitting around a monopoly table on the backs of slaves with a symbol of the Eye of Providence and industrial plants causing pollution in the background. I don't see this apparent anti-semitic message anywhere. I see an attack on the corporate system, that's all I see from this.

I think we have to be very careful about what we associate as anti semitism, or any other kind of religious or racial attack. Because it seems to me that this narrative is being used to silence people who dare to attack the corporate world and thats a very dangerous precedent.

[G B Young]

Actually I don’t think it’s only me who sees it as anti-Semitic. If the test is would most reasonable see it as such them I’m fairly confident it would pass.

I'd agree most reasonable people would see it as such, but clearly not everyone on here is reasonable.

I thought following Hibs this afternoon was hard going, but taking a look at what's been posted on this thread during the match is tougher :wink:

Anyway...the most obvious reason the mural was anti-Semitic is because the depictions of the bankers counting their money mirrors the imagery used by the Nazis to stir up hatred against Jews. Here's an example (hard to deny the similarity):

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nazi+depiction+of+Jews.+Used+as+propagand a+in+the+USSR.&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq_M2jr7LjAhWtQEEAHch-BPsQ_AUIECgB&biw=1440&bih=767#imgdii=7BgLgVDTAo60xM:&imgrc=CXM-98mDrGlTbM:

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, the artist who painted it confirmed it was supposed to stereotype Jewish money men and said that Jewish people in his community had a problem with the mural because it "portrayed their beloved Rothschild or Warburg as the demons they are." No attempt at ambiguity there.

As for Corbyn, why would he apologise if he didn't believe the mural was anti-Semitic? The notion that he did so to appease the allegedly 'state-controlled media' (is this another way of saying the 'Jewish media'?) is surely nonsense. He takes flak from the media day in day out. Another dose of criticism would have been water off his back so why not stick to his guns. As you say, he clearly realised he'd made a mistake and had the (rare) good grace to apologise.

The mind-boggling assertion that anyone who thinks the mural was anti-Semitic makes them anti-Semitic themselves...where do you go with that sort of 'logic'?!

Anti-Semitism is racism, pure and simple. There should be no place for it in society nor on a Hibs fans' forum.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'd agree most reasonable people would see it as such, but clearly not everyone on here is reasonable.

I thought following Hibs this afternoon was hard going, but taking a look at what's been posted on this thread during the match is tougher :wink:

Anyway...the most obvious reason the mural was anti-Semitic is because the depictions of the bankers counting their money mirrors the imagery used by the Nazis to stir up hatred against Jews. Here's an example (hard to deny the similarity):

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nazi+depiction+of+Jews.+Used+as+propagand a+in+the+USSR.&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq_M2jr7LjAhWtQEEAHch-BPsQ_AUIECgB&biw=1440&bih=767#imgdii=7BgLgVDTAo60xM:&imgrc=CXM-98mDrGlTbM:

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, the artist who painted it confirmed it was supposed to stereotype Jewish money men and said that Jewish people in his community had a problem with the mural because it "portrayed their beloved Rothschild or Warburg as the demons they are." No attempt at ambiguity there.

As for Corbyn, why would he apologise if he didn't believe the mural was anti-Semitic? The notion that he did so to appease the allegedly 'state-controlled media' (is this another way of saying the 'Jewish media'?) is surely nonsense. He takes flak from the media day in day out. Another dose of criticism would have been water off his back so why not stick to his guns. As you say, he clearly realised he'd made a mistake and had the (rare) good grace to apologise.

The mind-boggling assertion that anyone who thinks the mural was anti-Semitic makes them anti-Semitic themselves...where do you go with that sort of 'logic'?!

Anti-Semitism is racism, pure and simple. There should be no place for it in society nor on a Hibs fans' forum.

You're comparing this image to the depiction the nazis used back in the 30's and 40's? Big flaw with that comparison. The people in those images that the nazi's used were actually dressed up in a clothing style associated with the jewish following. Like the wearing of the kippah for example. The men in the image being debated here are simply wearing suits. They aren't wearing anything that is associated exclusively with judaism. They're dressed up as anybody from any religious or non-religious background could be dressed up as. There is quite literally no link to their appearance and what followers of Judaism may sometimes wear.

Sorry, but going directly from an image of old men in suits counting money to anti-semitism is nothing short of outrageous.

As for claiming that the artist confirmed that it was supposed to be a stereotype of jewish money men. That's not quite true. In fact, here's a tweet from the creater from just last year - https://twitter.com/mearone/status/977299958054318080

What he did however state though was that all 6 men are based on real people, 2 of whom are Jewish and 4 of them who are not. So take what you will from that.

As for Corbyn apologizing. He would have been advised to do so by his own political advisers. The idea that Corbyn just didn't know what he was looking at the first time round is complete nonsense. He seen it and didn't consider it to be anti-semitic. So I don't believe for one moment he had a sudden change of heart (or eyes), just because his own political advisers told him to issue a public apology.

The 6 men depicted are supposed to represent “Rothschild, Rockefeller, Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Carnegie & Warburg“. 2 of whom are Jewish.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nope. I want to know why you personally believe it to be anti-semitic. I'm giving you a chance to explain your view on this and why that is the case.

I'd also like to know how it isn't anti-semitic to associate a particular physical feature with followers of Judaism, when Judaism has nothing to do with a persons physical characteristics.

It does. Judaism is not a religion of converts like Islam or Christianity. The vast majority of Jews share ethnicity.

[Fife-Hibee]

It does. Judaism is not a religion of converts like Islam or Christianity. The vast majority of Jews share ethnicity.

That may well be the case. But it's still wrong to associate Judaism with race in my opinion. Assuming you're not already Jewish, there would be nothing stopping you from becoming so if you wished to do so. Judaism isn't limited by ethnicity. Any of us could become followers of Judiasm if we chose to.

The point here though is that we have an image of 6 men in suits who are supposed to represent real people. 2 of which are Jewish. That would suggest to me that the common theme between them here isn't their religion. But their corporate greed for money, control and power.

[Bangkok Hibby]

https://www.davidicke.com/article/465695/exclusive-davidicke-com-street-artist-mear-one-responds-anti-semitic-painting-hysteria

Ive read the last few pages with interest so thought I'd read what the artist himself said. Now I know David Icke can be seen as an utter loony but the artists words are his alone. Sorry if the link isn't great. No idea how to do it on my phone. Anyway this quite clearly tells me the image has nothing whatsoever to do with anti semitism.

[JeMeSouviens]

That may well be the case. But it's still wrong to associate Judaism with race in my opinion. Assuming you're not already Jewish, there would be nothing stopping you from becoming so if you wished to do so. Judaism isn't limited by ethnicity. Any of us could become followers of Judiasm if we chose to.

The point here though is that we have an image of 6 men in suits who are supposed to represent real people. 2 of which are Jewish. That would suggest to me that the common theme between them here isn't their religion. But their corporate greed for money, control and power.

It is possible to convert to Judaism but not easy. You can’t just pitch up at a synagogue and become a Jew. In practice they are an ethnic group as well as a religion.

[Ozyhibby]

Coming out for a 2nd referendum on brexit moves the dial a bit for Labour. Amazing what common sense can do.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/74fcfd57f149070ff337ce1cb1ed130d.jpg
Would give a seat count of
Lab 286
Con 199
Brexit 58
LD 45
SNP 40
PC 3
Greens 1
NI 18.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

Catching up on the more mundane events of the day following an extraordinary afternoon of tennis and cricket. I've never liked the ever-smug Thornberry, but she talks sense here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48981120

[Fife-Hibee]

So despite the fact that it has been actively proven that things get made up and called anti-semitic when it's proven not to be the case at all. We're still going to drone on with the same old narrative which requires no real insight, research or indepth analysis whatsoever?

Why should Labour adopt an independent process for dealing with complaints of anti-Semitism only? Shouldn't they just have an independent process for dealing with any/all complaints?

[Ozyhibby]

So despite the fact that it has been actively proven that things get made up and called anti-semitic when it's proven not to be the case at all. We're still going to drone on with the same old narrative which requires no real insight, research or indepth analysis whatsoever?

Why should Labour adopt an independent process for dealing with complaints of anti-Semitism only? Shouldn't they just have an independent process for dealing with any/all complaints?

YES, they should have an independent process for dealing with all complaints and the leaders office should not be involved at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GORDONSMITH7]

For Oz, Young and other Tory boys

#PanoramaHatchetJob: Stop the smears! Oppose the anti-Corbyn conspiracy!
SOCIALIST APPEAL 11 JUL 2019

Last night's Panorama 'exposé' about alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party was nothing but a right-wing hatchet job. It is yet another attempt to smear the Labour left and sabotage Corbyn. These slanders must stop.
“Labour was on the brink of civil war last night as Brexit and anti-Semitism threatened to split the party,” bellowed the Tory Daily Mail. “Jeremy Corbyn has been rocked by fierce and high-level infighting on both issues ahead of a nightmare week.”

Such hysteria has been widespread across the Tory media. It is echoed constantly by Labour’s right wing. It constitutes a deliberate campaign to ramp up a ‘coup’ against Jeremy Corbyn.

What is driving this hysteria? They are alarmed that if Boris becomes Tory leader, Corbyn could win a general election. Everything is therefore being done by the capitalist establishment - including their stooges in the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) - to discredit Corbyn.

The filth they pump out is endless. It is a foretaste of what is to come – especially come a general election and if Corbyn becomes prime minister.

Amongst the most recent smears include lies being spread by top civil servants that Corbyn is not medically fit to be prime minister. But this of course comes on top of years of lies about Jeremy Corbyn being a ‘Kremlin stooge’, ‘Czech spy’, and ‘terrorist sympathiser’.


Daniel Rubinstein
@stylophobia
#PanoramaHatchetJob 10th July 2019 :
BBC finally abandons all pretence at balance to help stop a Labour Government.
How ?
Primarily (amongst other tricks) by totally ignoring all those Jewish Labour members who support Corbyn.
Jewish Voice for Labour for a start !

333
9:50 AM - Jul 11, 2019

Now the ‘impartial’ BBC (in reality an establishment front) has produced a Panorama ‘exposé’ about an anti-Semitic ‘cover-up’ in the Labour Party. The programme - entitled ‘is Labour anti-Semitic?’ - aired last night, obviously with the intention of adding yet further fuel to the fire.

This slanderous documentary has resulted in an hysterical furore, with Blairites lining up to attack Jeremy Corbyn and those closest to him within the party for ‘interfering’ with disciplinary procedures involving those accused of anti-Semitism.

Unsurprisingly, it has been self-appointed Witchfinder General Tom Watson who has once again led the charge. This wannabe Machiavelli pounced immediately in the wake of the Panorama programme being televised, in what was clearly an orchestrated move by Labour right-wingers.

In particular, the Labour deputy leader pointed the finger at key Corbyn allies such as communications director Seamus Milne and party general secretary Jennie Formby. Both are alleged in the programme to have personally intervened to ‘protect’ alleged anti-Semites.

But the whole documentary was a farce from beginning to end, coming across like a cheap pastiche of a Cold War era, McCarthyite, ‘reds under the bed’ scare story. The trending hashtag on Twitter summed it up: #PanoramaHatchetJob

With the exception of a couple of quick screenshots and a few out-of-context pulled quotes, there was nothing of any actual substance to back up the most outrageous and one-sided claims. And to top it all off, every voiceover was accompanied by short, grainy video clips, filtered and edited to make them look as ominous as possible. In truth, it was all quite surreal.

Blairite attack
Tom Watson Labour Party ConferenceEvery allegation and accusation was based solely upon the testament of a handful of disgruntled former employees and ex-members. Simply put, a few personal anecdotes and experiences were extrapolated to paint a picture of rampant racism inside Labour. Such ‘evidence’ would be laughed out of any serious court.

On the other side, where was the voice given to the victims of this right-wing witch-hunt? Where was the mention of how left-wing activists and MPs - such as Jackie Walker and Chris Williamson - have been hounded out of the party simply for standing up against the Blairites and their smear campaign?

What was obviously not mentioned is that all the former officials who spoke in this Panorama programme came from the pre-Corbyn era. They are clearly careerists who detest the shift to the left inside the Labour Party.

When Labour tried to prevent these ex-officials disclosing confidential information, this produced a howl of protest from the party’s right wing, starting with Tom Watson, who has been at the centre of the anti-Corbyn faction.

The Blairite weasel Wes Streeting MP warned that he would use parliamentary privilege to defeat any ‘gagging’ orders. He was followed by Mike Katz, chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement, another right-wing outfit, who talked about “shining a light on institutional anti-Jewish racism”.

Gordon Brown also jumped on the bandwagon, calling on Corbyn to eliminate anti-Semitism in the party and make an unqualified apology to the Jewish community. This is rich coming from a man who, along with Blair, was responsible for the devastating war in Iraq.

BBC bias
The Panorama programme was clearly not intended to be a piece of serious, impartial journalism. Its commissioned director, John Ware, is a former Sun journalist, who has a long record of producing material that is supportive of the Israeli government and its actions, that is anti-Islamic, and that is - of course - anti-Corbyn.

Ware has produced a whole series of Panarama programmes with an anti-Muslim slant. This includes one in 2005 that the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) called “deeply unfair” and described as a “witch-hunt”.

After a 2006 programme by Ware was aired, the MCB felt moved to call the documentary maker an “agenda-driven, pro-Israeli polemicist”. The documentary itself was the subject of a successful libel case that cost the BBC a sizeable payout. But this did not stop Ware, who went on to attack Muslim schools in a 2010 report - again for the BBC.

And then in 2015, Ware varied his theme and produced a hostile report for Panorama attacking Corbyn, which was later called “a complete hatchet job”.

Just how (un)balanced the film was can be seen from the strongly-worded response from Labour. In an official statement released after last night’s airing, the party accused the programme of being:

"...a seriously inaccurate, politically one-sided polemic, which breached basic journalistic standards, invented quotes and edited emails to change their meaning..."
"No proper and serious attempt was made to understand our current procedures for dealing with anti-Semitism, which is clearly essential to reach a fair and balanced judgement.”
This response is in addition to a letter of complaint written by the Labour Party to the BBC ahead of the programme being televised, where the party outlines in detail all the errors, inaccuracies, and biases involved with the documentary.

As this Labour correctly asserts, it is a scandal that this programme ever made it onto TV at all. Yet - given the BBC’s history - we should not be surprised. Time after time the BBC has acted as a mouthpiece for the establishment, spewing out lies about Corbyn, Labour, and the trade unions as if they were facts. Last night’s rubbish is only the latest example.

The question of anti-Semitism is clearly being blown out of all promotion to discredit Corbyn. Blairite crony Baron Triesman gave the game away in his resignation letter when he complained about anti-Semites being “shielded”, whereas "serious party members are thrown out unceremoniously" - by which he means Tory-backing right-wingers. Triesman then went on to attack the “hard left”, the real target of his venom.

As usual, the BBC and the rest loyally report all these baseless smears as if they are facts, without ever bothering to challenge them.

The Blairites’ endless campaign to undermine Corbyn is also aimed at discrediting the Labour Party. They hate Corbyn so much that they would prefer a Tory government. There is no other explanation. Every time Labour advances in the opinion polls, they start screaming about anti-Semitism. They want to demoralise the party membership and confuse Labour supporters.

No wonder the ranks of the Labour Party are increasingly angry. They are eager for right-wing Labour MPs to face reselection. This should be a basic democratic right. But the Blairites are opposed to democracy.

“If you start deselecting people on a widespread scale it will lead to the Labour Party turning in on itself,” warned John Cryer, chair of the PLP. “They ought to be very careful what they wish for, because you’ve got to deal with the aftermath for a very long time.”

This is a serious threat. These right-wingers are prepared to foment chaos and disruption to save their careers and their bloated salaries. Above all, they want to retain the PLP in the grip of the right wing, as a safe pair of hands for the capitalists. In this aim, they are prepared to sabotage the prospects of a Corbyn Labour government.

We say: Don’t give in to this blackmail! Defeat the witch-hunt against Corbyn and the left! Clear out the careerists! Allow Labour members to decide on their representatives!

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

By the way wee right wing applogist Ian Murray MP is up to his neck in this disgraceful behaviour.

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

For Oz, Young and other Tory boys

#PanoramaHatchetJob: Stop the smears! Oppose the anti-Corbyn conspiracy!
SOCIALIST APPEAL 11 JUL 2019

Last night's Panorama 'exposé' about alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party was nothing but a right-wing hatchet job. It is yet another attempt to smear the Labour left and sabotage Corbyn. These slanders must stop.
“Labour was on the brink of civil war last night as Brexit and anti-Semitism threatened to split the party,” bellowed the Tory Daily Mail. “Jeremy Corbyn has been rocked by fierce and high-level infighting on both issues ahead of a nightmare week.”

Such hysteria has been widespread across the Tory media. It is echoed constantly by Labour’s right wing. It constitutes a deliberate campaign to ramp up a ‘coup’ against Jeremy Corbyn.

What is driving this hysteria? They are alarmed that if Boris becomes Tory leader, Corbyn could win a general election. Everything is therefore being done by the capitalist establishment - including their stooges in the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) - to discredit Corbyn.

The filth they pump out is endless. It is a foretaste of what is to come – especially come a general election and if Corbyn becomes prime minister.

Amongst the most recent smears include lies being spread by top civil servants that Corbyn is not medically fit to be prime minister. But this of course comes on top of years of lies about Jeremy Corbyn being a ‘Kremlin stooge’, ‘Czech spy’, and ‘terrorist sympathiser’.


Daniel Rubinstein
@stylophobia
#PanoramaHatchetJob 10th July 2019 :
BBC finally abandons all pretence at balance to help stop a Labour Government.
How ?
Primarily (amongst other tricks) by totally ignoring all those Jewish Labour members who support Corbyn.
Jewish Voice for Labour for a start !

333
9:50 AM - Jul 11, 2019

Now the ‘impartial’ BBC (in reality an establishment front) has produced a Panorama ‘exposé’ about an anti-Semitic ‘cover-up’ in the Labour Party. The programme - entitled ‘is Labour anti-Semitic?’ - aired last night, obviously with the intention of adding yet further fuel to the fire.

This slanderous documentary has resulted in an hysterical furore, with Blairites lining up to attack Jeremy Corbyn and those closest to him within the party for ‘interfering’ with disciplinary procedures involving those accused of anti-Semitism.

Unsurprisingly, it has been self-appointed Witchfinder General Tom Watson who has once again led the charge. This wannabe Machiavelli pounced immediately in the wake of the Panorama programme being televised, in what was clearly an orchestrated move by Labour right-wingers.

In particular, the Labour deputy leader pointed the finger at key Corbyn allies such as communications director Seamus Milne and party general secretary Jennie Formby. Both are alleged in the programme to have personally intervened to ‘protect’ alleged anti-Semites.

But the whole documentary was a farce from beginning to end, coming across like a cheap pastiche of a Cold War era, McCarthyite, ‘reds under the bed’ scare story. The trending hashtag on Twitter summed it up: #PanoramaHatchetJob

With the exception of a couple of quick screenshots and a few out-of-context pulled quotes, there was nothing of any actual substance to back up the most outrageous and one-sided claims. And to top it all off, every voiceover was accompanied by short, grainy video clips, filtered and edited to make them look as ominous as possible. In truth, it was all quite surreal.

Blairite attack
Tom Watson Labour Party ConferenceEvery allegation and accusation was based solely upon the testament of a handful of disgruntled former employees and ex-members. Simply put, a few personal anecdotes and experiences were extrapolated to paint a picture of rampant racism inside Labour. Such ‘evidence’ would be laughed out of any serious court.

On the other side, where was the voice given to the victims of this right-wing witch-hunt? Where was the mention of how left-wing activists and MPs - such as Jackie Walker and Chris Williamson - have been hounded out of the party simply for standing up against the Blairites and their smear campaign?

What was obviously not mentioned is that all the former officials who spoke in this Panorama programme came from the pre-Corbyn era. They are clearly careerists who detest the shift to the left inside the Labour Party.

When Labour tried to prevent these ex-officials disclosing confidential information, this produced a howl of protest from the party’s right wing, starting with Tom Watson, who has been at the centre of the anti-Corbyn faction.

The Blairite weasel Wes Streeting MP warned that he would use parliamentary privilege to defeat any ‘gagging’ orders. He was followed by Mike Katz, chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement, another right-wing outfit, who talked about “shining a light on institutional anti-Jewish racism”.

Gordon Brown also jumped on the bandwagon, calling on Corbyn to eliminate anti-Semitism in the party and make an unqualified apology to the Jewish community. This is rich coming from a man who, along with Blair, was responsible for the devastating war in Iraq.

BBC bias
The Panorama programme was clearly not intended to be a piece of serious, impartial journalism. Its commissioned director, John Ware, is a former Sun journalist, who has a long record of producing material that is supportive of the Israeli government and its actions, that is anti-Islamic, and that is - of course - anti-Corbyn.

Ware has produced a whole series of Panarama programmes with an anti-Muslim slant. This includes one in 2005 that the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) called “deeply unfair” and described as a “witch-hunt”.

After a 2006 programme by Ware was aired, the MCB felt moved to call the documentary maker an “agenda-driven, pro-Israeli polemicist”. The documentary itself was the subject of a successful libel case that cost the BBC a sizeable payout. But this did not stop Ware, who went on to attack Muslim schools in a 2010 report - again for the BBC.

And then in 2015, Ware varied his theme and produced a hostile report for Panorama attacking Corbyn, which was later called “a complete hatchet job”.

Just how (un)balanced the film was can be seen from the strongly-worded response from Labour. In an official statement released after last night’s airing, the party accused the programme of being:

"...a seriously inaccurate, politically one-sided polemic, which breached basic journalistic standards, invented quotes and edited emails to change their meaning..."
"No proper and serious attempt was made to understand our current procedures for dealing with anti-Semitism, which is clearly essential to reach a fair and balanced judgement.”
This response is in addition to a letter of complaint written by the Labour Party to the BBC ahead of the programme being televised, where the party outlines in detail all the errors, inaccuracies, and biases involved with the documentary.

As this Labour correctly asserts, it is a scandal that this programme ever made it onto TV at all. Yet - given the BBC’s history - we should not be surprised. Time after time the BBC has acted as a mouthpiece for the establishment, spewing out lies about Corbyn, Labour, and the trade unions as if they were facts. Last night’s rubbish is only the latest example.

The question of anti-Semitism is clearly being blown out of all promotion to discredit Corbyn. Blairite crony Baron Triesman gave the game away in his resignation letter when he complained about anti-Semites being “shielded”, whereas "serious party members are thrown out unceremoniously" - by which he means Tory-backing right-wingers. Triesman then went on to attack the “hard left”, the real target of his venom.

As usual, the BBC and the rest loyally report all these baseless smears as if they are facts, without ever bothering to challenge them.

The Blairites’ endless campaign to undermine Corbyn is also aimed at discrediting the Labour Party. They hate Corbyn so much that they would prefer a Tory government. There is no other explanation. Every time Labour advances in the opinion polls, they start screaming about anti-Semitism. They want to demoralise the party membership and confuse Labour supporters.

No wonder the ranks of the Labour Party are increasingly angry. They are eager for right-wing Labour MPs to face reselection. This should be a basic democratic right. But the Blairites are opposed to democracy.

“If you start deselecting people on a widespread scale it will lead to the Labour Party turning in on itself,” warned John Cryer, chair of the PLP. “They ought to be very careful what they wish for, because you’ve got to deal with the aftermath for a very long time.”

This is a serious threat. These right-wingers are prepared to foment chaos and disruption to save their careers and their bloated salaries. Above all, they want to retain the PLP in the grip of the right wing, as a safe pair of hands for the capitalists. In this aim, they are prepared to sabotage the prospects of a Corbyn Labour government.

We say: Don’t give in to this blackmail! Defeat the witch-hunt against Corbyn and the left! Clear out the careerists! Allow Labour members to decide on their representatives!

BIG G

So if you get rid of all the centre left as you clearly want to, do you really think you can win a GE? What’s the plan? Absolute fantasy stuff.
Carry on with Corbyn and you can spend all your time talking conspiracy theories while the Tories are in power.
What the Blairites understood and you clearly don’t is if you don’t win, it doesn’t matter a **** what your plans for the country are.
Fast becoming a party of protest.
And btw, electorally right now, if Labour get behind remain people will forgive the anti semitism. For now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

Classic retort from you. Can't tackle the point so take the man instead. You know what i'm saying is correct. You just don't like to be corrected.

Fife you must be the very worst advert for separatism, good on you. You plumb new depths of plebness.

[GORDONSMITH7]

So if you get rid of all the centre left as you clearly want to, do you really think you can win a GE? What’s the plan? Absolute fantasy stuff.
Carry on with Corbyn and you can spend all your time talking conspiracy theories while the Tories are in power.
What the Blairites understood and you clearly don’t is if you don’t win, it doesn’t matter a **** what your plans for the country are.
Fast becoming a party of protest.
And btw, electorally right now, if Labour get behind remain people will forgive the anti semitism. For now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh dear, Blairites are now centre left. Give me a break. Adrian Mole.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

Fife you must be the very worst advert for separatism, good on you. You plumb new depths of plebness.

So Labour are anti-semite in your view?

You're probably the one and only poster on here who could convince me that they are. If you think they are, then by gawd, it must be true. :greengrin

[G B Young]

For Oz, Young and other Tory boys

#PanoramaHatchetJob: Stop the smears! Oppose the anti-Corbyn conspiracy!
SOCIALIST APPEAL 11 JUL 2019

Last night's Panorama 'exposé' about alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party was nothing but a right-wing hatchet job. It is yet another attempt to smear the Labour left and sabotage Corbyn. These slanders must stop.
“Labour was on the brink of civil war last night as Brexit and anti-Semitism threatened to split the party,” bellowed the Tory Daily Mail. “Jeremy Corbyn has been rocked by fierce and high-level infighting on both issues ahead of a nightmare week.”

Such hysteria has been widespread across the Tory media. It is echoed constantly by Labour’s right wing. It constitutes a deliberate campaign to ramp up a ‘coup’ against Jeremy Corbyn.

What is driving this hysteria? They are alarmed that if Boris becomes Tory leader, Corbyn could win a general election. Everything is therefore being done by the capitalist establishment - including their stooges in the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) - to discredit Corbyn.

The filth they pump out is endless. It is a foretaste of what is to come – especially come a general election and if Corbyn becomes prime minister.

Amongst the most recent smears include lies being spread by top civil servants that Corbyn is not medically fit to be prime minister. But this of course comes on top of years of lies about Jeremy Corbyn being a ‘Kremlin stooge’, ‘Czech spy’, and ‘terrorist sympathiser’.


Daniel Rubinstein
@stylophobia
#PanoramaHatchetJob 10th July 2019 :
BBC finally abandons all pretence at balance to help stop a Labour Government.
How ?
Primarily (amongst other tricks) by totally ignoring all those Jewish Labour members who support Corbyn.
Jewish Voice for Labour for a start !

333
9:50 AM - Jul 11, 2019

Now the ‘impartial’ BBC (in reality an establishment front) has produced a Panorama ‘exposé’ about an anti-Semitic ‘cover-up’ in the Labour Party. The programme - entitled ‘is Labour anti-Semitic?’ - aired last night, obviously with the intention of adding yet further fuel to the fire.

This slanderous documentary has resulted in an hysterical furore, with Blairites lining up to attack Jeremy Corbyn and those closest to him within the party for ‘interfering’ with disciplinary procedures involving those accused of anti-Semitism.

Unsurprisingly, it has been self-appointed Witchfinder General Tom Watson who has once again led the charge. This wannabe Machiavelli pounced immediately in the wake of the Panorama programme being televised, in what was clearly an orchestrated move by Labour right-wingers.

In particular, the Labour deputy leader pointed the finger at key Corbyn allies such as communications director Seamus Milne and party general secretary Jennie Formby. Both are alleged in the programme to have personally intervened to ‘protect’ alleged anti-Semites.

But the whole documentary was a farce from beginning to end, coming across like a cheap pastiche of a Cold War era, McCarthyite, ‘reds under the bed’ scare story. The trending hashtag on Twitter summed it up: #PanoramaHatchetJob

With the exception of a couple of quick screenshots and a few out-of-context pulled quotes, there was nothing of any actual substance to back up the most outrageous and one-sided claims. And to top it all off, every voiceover was accompanied by short, grainy video clips, filtered and edited to make them look as ominous as possible. In truth, it was all quite surreal.

Blairite attack
Tom Watson Labour Party ConferenceEvery allegation and accusation was based solely upon the testament of a handful of disgruntled former employees and ex-members. Simply put, a few personal anecdotes and experiences were extrapolated to paint a picture of rampant racism inside Labour. Such ‘evidence’ would be laughed out of any serious court.

On the other side, where was the voice given to the victims of this right-wing witch-hunt? Where was the mention of how left-wing activists and MPs - such as Jackie Walker and Chris Williamson - have been hounded out of the party simply for standing up against the Blairites and their smear campaign?

What was obviously not mentioned is that all the former officials who spoke in this Panorama programme came from the pre-Corbyn era. They are clearly careerists who detest the shift to the left inside the Labour Party.

When Labour tried to prevent these ex-officials disclosing confidential information, this produced a howl of protest from the party’s right wing, starting with Tom Watson, who has been at the centre of the anti-Corbyn faction.

The Blairite weasel Wes Streeting MP warned that he would use parliamentary privilege to defeat any ‘gagging’ orders. He was followed by Mike Katz, chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement, another right-wing outfit, who talked about “shining a light on institutional anti-Jewish racism”.

Gordon Brown also jumped on the bandwagon, calling on Corbyn to eliminate anti-Semitism in the party and make an unqualified apology to the Jewish community. This is rich coming from a man who, along with Blair, was responsible for the devastating war in Iraq.

BBC bias
The Panorama programme was clearly not intended to be a piece of serious, impartial journalism. Its commissioned director, John Ware, is a former Sun journalist, who has a long record of producing material that is supportive of the Israeli government and its actions, that is anti-Islamic, and that is - of course - anti-Corbyn.

Ware has produced a whole series of Panarama programmes with an anti-Muslim slant. This includes one in 2005 that the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) called “deeply unfair” and described as a “witch-hunt”.

After a 2006 programme by Ware was aired, the MCB felt moved to call the documentary maker an “agenda-driven, pro-Israeli polemicist”. The documentary itself was the subject of a successful libel case that cost the BBC a sizeable payout. But this did not stop Ware, who went on to attack Muslim schools in a 2010 report - again for the BBC.

And then in 2015, Ware varied his theme and produced a hostile report for Panorama attacking Corbyn, which was later called “a complete hatchet job”.

Just how (un)balanced the film was can be seen from the strongly-worded response from Labour. In an official statement released after last night’s airing, the party accused the programme of being:

"...a seriously inaccurate, politically one-sided polemic, which breached basic journalistic standards, invented quotes and edited emails to change their meaning..."
"No proper and serious attempt was made to understand our current procedures for dealing with anti-Semitism, which is clearly essential to reach a fair and balanced judgement.”
This response is in addition to a letter of complaint written by the Labour Party to the BBC ahead of the programme being televised, where the party outlines in detail all the errors, inaccuracies, and biases involved with the documentary.

As this Labour correctly asserts, it is a scandal that this programme ever made it onto TV at all. Yet - given the BBC’s history - we should not be surprised. Time after time the BBC has acted as a mouthpiece for the establishment, spewing out lies about Corbyn, Labour, and the trade unions as if they were facts. Last night’s rubbish is only the latest example.

The question of anti-Semitism is clearly being blown out of all promotion to discredit Corbyn. Blairite crony Baron Triesman gave the game away in his resignation letter when he complained about anti-Semites being “shielded”, whereas "serious party members are thrown out unceremoniously" - by which he means Tory-backing right-wingers. Triesman then went on to attack the “hard left”, the real target of his venom.

As usual, the BBC and the rest loyally report all these baseless smears as if they are facts, without ever bothering to challenge them.

The Blairites’ endless campaign to undermine Corbyn is also aimed at discrediting the Labour Party. They hate Corbyn so much that they would prefer a Tory government. There is no other explanation. Every time Labour advances in the opinion polls, they start screaming about anti-Semitism. They want to demoralise the party membership and confuse Labour supporters.

No wonder the ranks of the Labour Party are increasingly angry. They are eager for right-wing Labour MPs to face reselection. This should be a basic democratic right. But the Blairites are opposed to democracy.

“If you start deselecting people on a widespread scale it will lead to the Labour Party turning in on itself,” warned John Cryer, chair of the PLP. “They ought to be very careful what they wish for, because you’ve got to deal with the aftermath for a very long time.”

This is a serious threat. These right-wingers are prepared to foment chaos and disruption to save their careers and their bloated salaries. Above all, they want to retain the PLP in the grip of the right wing, as a safe pair of hands for the capitalists. In this aim, they are prepared to sabotage the prospects of a Corbyn Labour government.

We say: Don’t give in to this blackmail! Defeat the witch-hunt against Corbyn and the left! Clear out the careerists! Allow Labour members to decide on their representatives!

BIG G

I appreciate your recent update on the main board regarding the St Pat’s and HSA meeting with Ron (for which many thanks), but this sort of stuff is little more the sort of propaganda/conspiracy theories to be found at the more extreme edges of politics. The Panorama programme is being slated for its lack of balance yet there’s not a scrap of balance to be found in any of these tirades, while the supposed 'hysteria' of the Tory media is more than mirrored by the hysterical and inflammatory tone used here.

Meanwhile:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/13/whistleblowers-to-sue-labour-as-antisemitism-row-deepens

[G B Young]

So despite the fact that it has been actively proven that things get made up and called anti-semitic when it's proven not to be the case at all. We're still going to drone on with the same old narrative which requires no real insight, research or indepth analysis whatsoever?

Why should Labour adopt an independent process for dealing with complaints of anti-Semitism only? Shouldn't they just have an independent process for dealing with any/all complaints?

I’m not aware this has been ‘proven’ at all. Only yesterday Emily Thornberry said nobody could pretend anti-Semitism isn’t an ongoing problem within the party, echoing statements made by Corbyn and McDonnell, so the issue doesn’t appear to be whether it exists but how Labour are actually dealing with it.

Your own attempts to ‘prove’ the problem doesn’t exist in the Labour party include the following:
It’s all a conspiracy because, while you have no evidence of it, you know ‘some people’ believe Jews control the media and the banks.
Those who spoke out on Panorama were schooled by the production team in how to look and sound aggrieved.
Any Labour MP expressing solidarity with the whistleblowers is only doing so to put themselves in the frame for a leadership challenge.
Corbyn was lying when he described that now infamous mural as ‘deeply disturbing and clearly anti-Semitic’ in an attempt to curry favour with the electorate.
Anyone who regards stereotypical caricatures which echo Nazi propaganda against Jews as anti-Semitic is anti-Semitic themselves because people other than Jews have big noses.

I’d suggest you’re some way short of putting Labour in the clear.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’m not aware this has been ‘proven’ at all. Only yesterday Emily Thornberry said nobody could pretend anti-Semitism isn’t an ongoing problem within the party, echoing statements made by Corbyn and McDonnell, so the issue doesn’t appear to be whether it exists but how Labour are actually dealing with it.

Your own attempts to ‘prove’ the problem doesn’t exist in the Labour party include the following:
It’s all a conspiracy because, while you have no evidence of it, you know ‘some people’ believe Jews control the media and the banks.
Those who spoke out on Panorama were schooled by the production team in how to look and sound aggrieved.
Any Labour MP expressing solidarity with the whistleblowers is only doing so to put themselves in the frame for a leadership challenge.
Corbyn was lying when he described that now infamous mural as ‘deeply disturbing and clearly anti-Semitic’ in an attempt to curry favour with the electorate.
Anyone who regards stereotypical caricatures which echo Nazi propaganda against Jews as anti-Semitic is anti-Semitic themselves because people other than Jews have big noses.

I’d suggest you’re some way short of putting Labour in the clear.

What motive would I have to try and falsley put Labour in the clear? I don't support the Labour Party, I don't even like the Labour Party. But I don't for one moment believe they are anti-semitic. I haven't seen anything from them to suggest that they are and biggest claims that they are, are easily debunked with a little research.

I believe Corbyn said there should be an investigation into it. But at no point has he stated that he believes it to actually be a problem within the party.

What is a "conspiracy" in your view? Daring to question a mainstream narrative by doing some real actual research, instead of just lazily and blindly going along with it?

[JeMeSouviens]

What motive would I have to try and falsley put Labour in the clear? I don't support the Labour Party, I don't even like the Labour Party. But I don't for one moment believe they are anti-semitic. I haven't seen anything from them to suggest that they are and biggest claims that they are, are easily debunked with a little research.

I believe Corbyn said there should be an investigation into it. But at no point has he stated that he believes it to actually be a problem within the party.

What is a "conspiracy" in your view? Daring to question a mainstream narrative by doing some real actual research, instead of just lazily and blindly going along with it?

Your debunking has not convinced me one iota so far.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your debunking has not convinced me one iota so far.

I'm not surprised. In the modern age, people just believe whatever they want to believe and are never really prepared to be swayed by anything presented to them.

Nothing I ever say or put forward will change your mind. You've already made up your mind and will downright refuse to change your stance no matter the weight of evidence provided to challenge your belief system.

That's why so many people believe there's a god.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not surprised. In the modern age, people just believe whatever they want to believe and are never really prepared to be swayed by anything presented to them.

Nothing I ever say or put forward will change your mind. You've already made up your mind and will downright refuse to change your stance no matter the weight of evidence provided to challenge your belief system.

That's why so many people believe there's a god.

Hilarious. I’ve been an atheist since refusing to go to sunday school age 6 btw.

[Fife-Hibee]

Hilarious. I’ve been an atheist since refusing to go to sunday school age 6 btw.

Then how do you know there isn't a god? I mean... if you're avoiding any information that argues that there is one. Then how can you be so sure there isn't?

[marinello59]

What motive would I have to try and falsley put Labour in the clear? I don't support the Labour Party, I don't even like the Labour Party. But I don't for one moment believe they are anti-semitic. I haven't seen anything from them to suggest that they are and biggest claims that they are, are easily debunked with a little research.

I believe Corbyn said there should be an investigation into it. But at no point has he stated that he believes it to actually be a problem within the party.

What is a "conspiracy" in your view? Daring to question a mainstream narrative by doing some real actual research, instead of just lazily and blindly going along with it?

What research have you done then. I assume you have several sources other than an exclusive interview on David Ickes site.
Have you watched that BBC programme you trashed the other day before admitting you hadn’t seen it. Top notch research there. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

What research have you done then. I assume you have several sources other than an exclusive interview on David Ickes site.
Have you watched that BBC programme you trashed the other day before admitting you hadn’t seen it. Top notch research there. :greengrin

What about the source provided from the artist himself who pointed out that the image was of 6 real people throughout modern history, only 2 of whom are Jewish?

Does the view of the artist himself hold no sway in challanging the faux tirade on Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party?

[marinello59]

What about the source provided from the artist himself who pointed out that the image was of 6 real people throughout modern history, only 2 of whom are Jewish?

Does the view of the artist himself hold no sway in challanging the faux tirade on Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party?

Faux tirade? I have stated several times I don’t think Corbyn is anti-Semitic.:confused:
You seem to be arguing that ant-semitism just doesn’t exist though.
The artist saying ‘ me ? No not me? ‘ on Ickes site really needs a wee bit more corroboration to be conclusive. Tommy Robinson and Nick Griffiths aren’t racist according to them. So what else has your extensive research that the rest of us are too lazy and stupid to do turned up?

[Fife-Hibee]

Faux tirade? I have stated several times I don’t think Corbyn is anti-Semitic.:confused:
You seem to be arguing that ant-semitism just doesn’t exist though.
The artist saying ‘ me ? No not me? ‘ on Ickes site really needs a wee bit more corroboration to be conclusive. Tommy Robinson and Nick Griffiths aren’t racist according to them. So what else has your extensive research that the rest of us are too lazy and stupid to do turned up?

If the artist is saying his motives were not of the anti-semitic variety, then that's good enough for me. Unfortunately he isn't given a platform by the BBC or the British mainstream media to give his own view on the matter. Because to do so would mean to apply a sense of balance and we can't have balance in the media when they're actively pushing a narrative.

[G B Young]

What motive would I have to try and falsley put Labour in the clear? I don't support the Labour Party, I don't even like the Labour Party. But I don't for one moment believe they are anti-semitic. I haven't seen anything from them to suggest that they are and biggest claims that they are, are easily debunked with a little research.

I believe Corbyn said there should be an investigation into it. But at no point has he stated that he believes it to actually be a problem within the party.

What is a "conspiracy" in your view? Daring to question a mainstream narrative by doing some real actual research, instead of just lazily and blindly going along with it?

A little research will lead you to the following quote from Corbyn:

"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples"

[marinello59]

If the artist is saying his motives were not of the anti-semitic variety, then that's good enough for me. Unfortunately he isn't given a platform by the BBC or the British mainstream media to give his own view on the matter. Because to do so would mean to apply a sense of balance and we can't have balance in the media when they're actively pushing a narrative.

If Tommy Robinson says he isn’t racist is that good enough for you?
Doesn’t the artist state that they chose Ickes website rather than talk to anybody else?
Anyway. You have done extensive research so what other evidence do you have that anti-semitism just doesn’t exist. You don’t even have to include Labour Party members, people outside the Labour Party saw the artists work as somewhat dodgy.

[marinello59]

I'm not surprised. In the modern age, people just believe whatever they want to believe and are never really prepared to be swayed by anything presented to them.

Nothing I ever say or put forward will change your mind. You've already made up your mind and will downright refuse to change your stance no matter the weight of evidence provided to challenge your belief system.

That's why so many people believe there's a god.

There is a God and he’s called Sauzee.

[Fife-Hibee]

A little research will lead you to the following quote from Corbyn:

"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples"

He also stated "newer forms of anti-Semitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments".

It seems he's referring to "anti-Semitism" in the modern day sense where the definition has been deliberately skewed to silence opposition and criticism of the Israeli government and lobbyists.


If Tommy Robinson says he isn’t racist is that good enough for you?
Doesn’t the artist state that they chose Ickes website rather than talk to anybody else?
Anyway. You have done extensive research so what other evidence do you have that anti-semitism just doesn’t exist. You don’t even have to include Labour Party members, people outside the Labour Party saw the artists work as somewhat dodgy.

Now you're putting words into my mouth. When have I ever stated that anti-semitism "just doesn't exist"? I've never said that once at any point. I just don't believe it exists within the Labour Party. Unless you want to buy into the new definition of anti-semitism that has surfaced since the unpopular actions taken by the Israeli government?

[marinello59]

He also stated "newer forms of anti-Semitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments".

It seems he's referring to "anti-Semitism" in the modern day sense where the definition has been deliberately skewed to silence opposition and criticism of the Israeli government and lobbyists.



Now you're putting words into my mouth. When have I ever stated that anti-semitism "just doesn't exist"? I've never said that once at any point. I just don't believe it exists within the Labour Party. Unless you wanted to buy into the new definition of anti-semitism that has surfaced since the unpopular actions taken by the Israeli government?

Apologies, I have put words in to your mouth, I shouldn’t have done that.
You are however trying to defend Labour from allegations of anti-semitism by arguing that an image most reasonable people taking historical context in to consideration would find anti-Semitic isn’t at all. Now my opinion ( and Corbyn’s) is guilty as charged. You have a different opinion but that isn’t proof really is it?
An independent inquiry may clear Labour of having a widespread problem and I hope it does. As non-members the only thing that we really know is that we know nothing. Maybe we could agree on that?

[Fife-Hibee]

Apologies, I have put words in to your mouth, I shouldn’t have done that.
You are however trying to defend Labour from allegations of anti-semitism by arguing that an image most reasonable people taking historical context in to consideration would find anti-Semitic isn’t at all. Now my opinion ( and Corbyn’s) is guilty as charged. You have a different opinion but that isn’t proof really is it?
An independent inquiry may clear Labour of having a widespread problem and I hope it does. As non-members the only thing that we really know is that we know nothing. Maybe we could agree on that?

Fair enough. I don't have an issue with an independent inquiry taking place. However, I believe a wide scale inquiry should be taking place into all political parties covering all aspects of xenophobia, sectarianism and racism.

The tories appear to be getting an exceptionally easy ride here by both the media and the authorities despite criticism within their own party.

No card should be left unturned. If some are, then we're not living in a democracy.

[Fife-Hibee]

How convenient that this just popped up on my twitter feed:
https://evolvepolitics.com/bbc-silent-again-as-yet-another-poll-reveals-horrendous-scale-of-tory-islamophobia/




67% of Tory members believe the lie that “there are areas in Britain that operate under Sharia law“
45% of Tory members believe the lie that “there are areas in Britain in which non-Muslims are not able to enter“, with just 34% disagreeing
39% of Tory members believe that “Islamist terrorists reflect a widespread hostility to Britain amongst the Muslim community“
Only 8% of Tory members agreed that they “would be proud of Britain if we were to elect a Muslim as our Prime Minister”
Whilst 43% of Tory members agreed that they “would prefer to not have the country led by a Muslim”

[marinello59]

How convenient that this just popped up on my twitter feed:
https://evolvepolitics.com/bbc-silent-again-as-yet-another-poll-reveals-horrendous-scale-of-tory-islamophobia/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48912065

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/07/new-poll-shows-conservative-rank-and-file-hold-islamophobic-attitudes#amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/10/islamophobia-tory-party-britain

Looks like the MSM totally missed it. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48912065

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/07/new-poll-shows-conservative-rank-and-file-hold-islamophobic-attitudes#amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/10/islamophobia-tory-party-britain

Looks like the MSM totally missed it. :greengrin

Articles tucked away in the bowels of their websites don't wash. Where's the BBC panorama on Tory islamophobia? (watched by millions) We can have eerie music and washed out colours for dramatic effect.

[marinello59]

Articles tucked away in the bowels of their websites don't wash. Where's the BBC panorama on Tory islamophobia? (watched by millions) We can have eerie music and washed out colours for dramatic effect.

Tucked away in the bowels? I read all of those articles on the day they were published. It took me a few seconds to find them just now.
The Guardian article does however make the same point as you and I agree. Where is the outrage? It was reported widely though, including on the BBC.

[G B Young]

He also stated "newer forms of anti-Semitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments".

It seems he's referring to "anti-Semitism" in the modern day sense where the definition has been deliberately skewed to silence opposition and criticism of the Israeli government and lobbyists.

You claimed that 'at no point has he stated that he believes it to actually be a problem within the party'. I'm just pointing out that he has uncategorically stated it's a problem. Granted, that apology was dragged out of him following a furore over his original mealy mouthed response, but there's no ambiguity about it.

[Fife-Hibee]

Tucked away in the bowels? I read all of those articles on the day they were published. It took me a few seconds to find them just now.
The Guardian article does however make the same point as you and I agree. Where is the outrage? It was reported widely though, including on the BBC.

You'll notice that the BBC article doesn't contain a view counter, or a comment section of any kind for people to engage in. A couple of thousand people read it if we're lucky. Don't even try and kid on that an online article on the BBC website has anywhere near as much stretch as a full budget panorama.

You can try and kid all you like. But the BBC stinks. Anyone looking at it through unblinkered eyes can see it for what it is.

[marinello59]

You'll notice that the BBC article doesn't contain a view counter, or a comment section of any kind for people to engage in. A couple of thousand people read it if we're lucky. Don't even try and kid on that an online article on the BBC website has anywhere near as much stretch as a full budget panorama.

You can try and kid all you like. But the BBC stinks. Anyone looking at it through unblinkered eyes can see it for what it is.

I’m not trying kid anybody Fifey. The news was out there for all of us to make up our minds. That’s how it worked in the days before the internet. I don’t need a few internet comments to reinforce my view that the Tories have a problem with Islam. It’s self evident.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’m not trying kid anybody Fifey. The news was out there for all of us to make up our minds. That’s how it worked in the days before the internet. I don’t need a few internet comments to reinforce my view that the Tories have a problem with Islam. It’s self evident.

There's a difference between news being out there and news being constantly reinforced. The news about tory islamophobia is not being reinforced. The odd article cropping up once every 2-3 months isn't keeping the general public focused on the issue. Constantly bashing on about percieved anti-semitism in the Labour Party through documentaries and live news broadcasts keeps it in the limelight.

Why is percieved anti-Semitism deemed more newsworthy than blatant, open Islamaphobia amongst the Tory ranks and it's members?

You're asking "where is the outrage?". There's no outrage because it isn't constantly being brought to the forefront by the media.

[marinello59]

There's a difference between news being out there and news being constantly reinforced. The news about tory islamophobia is not being reinforced. The odd article cropping up once every 2-3 months isn't keeping the general public focused on the issue. Constantly bashing on about percieved anti-semitism in the Labour Party through documentaries and live news broadcasts keeps it in the limelight.

Why is percieved anti-Semitism deemed more newsworthy than blatant, open Islamaphobia amongst the Tory ranks and it's members?

You're asking "where is the outrage?". There's no outrage because it isn't constantly being brought to the forefront by the media.

Do you honestly think there is a non Tory voter in the entire UK who doesn’t think that the average Tory voter has a problem with Islam? They are a lost cause.
There’s an outrage about anti-Semitic behaviour in the Labour Party because traditionally it has been a party where such discrimination is not tolerated and the leadership appear to have failed to do enough to counter it. The real outrage comes from people sympathetic to the Labour movement who feel betrayed . As I have already said, an independent inquiry can put it all to bed. Most of us can see media lead outrage for what it is without needing anything spelled out.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/d8f6d8b84f52136544f7411484c0ba5f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/d8f6d8b84f52136544f7411484c0ba5f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As per usual, it's all talk with no actual evidence provided of any of this apparent "attacking".

[GORDONSMITH7]

Spendid article from the Guardian which debunks the motives of Watson and the usual Blairite suspects.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/tom-watson-weaken-labour-party-centrists-jeremy-corbyn

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/c676903f72af50cb5bc096c92eb0b789.jpg

Say what you like about the Blairites, they would never have let the party be dragged through the mud the way Corbyn is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GORDONSMITH7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/c676903f72af50cb5bc096c92eb0b789.jpg

Say what you like about the Blairites, they would never have let the party be dragged through the mud the way Corbyn is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bomber says,you don't do irony Oz lad do you. 60 unelected Blairite Labour Lords put a paid advert in the Guardian saying Corbyn is a bad man. Oh really,dinnae make me laugh. By the way an Israeli official close to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused Jeremy Corbyn of Jew-hatred on yesterday. What a surprise! This drawn out Zinoviev Letter continues on relentlessly. Ironically the Daily Mail which were guilty in 1924 are still involved up to their necks along with the billionaire uk media.

By the way as I type the first utterances of dud Theresa May,at Prime Ministers Questions repeated what you said about the 60 'respected Labour Party members'. You are in good company Oz.

BIG G

[ballengeich]

Catching up on the more mundane events of the day following an extraordinary afternoon of tennis and cricket. I've never liked the ever-smug Thornberry, but she talks sense here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48981120

Her point on the desirability of Labour members looking at a message rather than attacking the messenger has unfortunately not been taken on by some contributors to this thread.

[Ozyhibby]

Bomber says,you don't do irony Oz lad do you. 60 unelected Blairite Labour Lords put a paid advert in the Guardian saying Corbyn is a bad man. Oh really,dinnae make me laugh. By the way an Israeli official close to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused Jeremy Corbyn of Jew-hatred on yesterday. What a surprise! This drawn out Zinoviev Letter continues on relentlessly. Ironically the Daily Mail which were guilty in 1924 are still involved up to their necks along with the billionaire uk media.

By the way as I type the first utterances of dud Theresa May,at Prime Ministers Questions repeated what you said about the 60 'respected Labour Party members'. You are in good company Oz.

BIG G

Know what you’ll never see? A letter from unelected SNP lords. About anything. Ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

Many years ago I remember becoming increasingly disturbed as the story of the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church began to break. It was a horrifying story and, like many others, it drove me away from the church for many years. Indeed it wasn't until the the election of Pope Francis and his willingness to at least acknowledge the abuse that I began to question whether it was time to go back.

Whilst the true heroes of the story are the survivors of abuse who fought against church authority to ensure their stories were heard there was a number of members of the clergy who also spoke out. I vividly remember a growing discomfort as senior figures in the church began to shout down their peers and the victims who had found the bravery to speak out. It came to a head for me when the late Bishop Joseph Devine suspended a Priest who had broken ranks and spoken out about abuse and had written a book about his own experiences. Devine branded him a 'fantasist' and he, along with many others, tried to paint those speaking out as having sectarian leanings or political opinions that made it beneficial for them to 'smear' the church. Of course it later emerged Devine and other senior members of the clergy had played their part in 'valuing' the reputation of the church over doing the right thing.

In many ways I can see parallels with the anti semitism crisis within the Labour Party. The tendency amongst some in both organisations has been to go after the complainers rather than focus on what complaints they are actually making. That's too easy and it's a cop out. Whilst it's impossible to equate paedophilia to alleged anti semitism, there is a warning about the consequences of, at best, not dealing with a problem and, at worst, actively targeting the complainants and suggesting they are playing at being victims to further their own ends.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/c676903f72af50cb5bc096c92eb0b789.jpg

Say what you like about the Blairites, they would never have let the party be dragged through the mud the way Corbyn is.

Oh yes they would. It is them that are actively dragging the party through the mud. Running to the media with whatever negative story or slant they can dream up, desperately trying to take down a Labour Party that they deem a threat to the neoliberal corporate agenda.

[Fife-Hibee]

Many years ago I remember becoming increasingly disturbed as the story of the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church began to break. It was a horrifying story and, like many others, it drove me away from the church for many years. Indeed it wasn't until the the election of Pope Francis and his willingness to at least acknowledge the abuse that I began to question whether it was time to go back.

Whilst the true heroes of the story are the survivors of abuse who fought against church authority to ensure their stories were heard there was a number of members of the clergy who also spoke out. I vividly remember a growing discomfort as senior figures in the church began to shout down their peers and the victims who had found the bravery to speak out. It came to a head for me when the late Bishop Joseph Devine suspended a Priest who had broken ranks and spoken out about abuse and had written a book about his own experiences. Devine branded him a 'fantasist' and he, along with many others, tried to paint those speaking out as having sectarian leanings or political opinions that made it beneficial for them to 'smear' the church. Of course it later emerged Devine and other senior members of the clergy had played their part in 'valuing' the reputation of the church over doing the right thing.

In many ways I can see parallels with the anti semitism crisis within the Labour Party. The tendency amongst some in both organisations has been to go after the complainers rather than focus on what complaints they are actually making. That's too easy and it's a cop out. Whilst it's impossible to equate paedophilia to alleged anti semitism, there is a warning about the consequences of, at best, not dealing with a problem and, at worst, actively targeting the complainants and suggesting they are playing at being victims to further their own ends.

Difference being.... there was actual abuse in the Catholic clergy which ruined many many lives. Nothing like what we're witnessing here.

[Pretty Boy]

Difference being.... there was actual abuse in the Catholic clergy which ruined many many lives. Nothing like what we're witnessing here.

And for a long time there were many Catholics who refused to believe there was abuse in the church. Much like there are many in the Labour Party denying there is anti semitism in their ranks now.

I don't believe for a second Jeremy Corbyn is an anti semite. He has though, along with others, failed to provide the leadership required to deal with the reports of anti semitism within his ranks effectively.

As I said in my original post my point was never to compare the 2 separate issues directly but rather to give my take on the similarities in the attitude that has seen some attacking the alleged victims rather than tackling the issues they raise.

[G B Young]

As per usual, it's all talk with no actual evidence provided of any of this apparent "attacking".

What 'actual evidence' do you have that contradicts these allegations?

As other have stated, it will all ultimately come out in the wash:

When asked about the nature of the evidence submitted to the equalities watchdog's probe into the Labour Party, a spokesperson for the EHRC said: "There are statutory prohibitions on disclosure of the information that we receive during an investigation and providing updates on progress can undermine any action we are taking. As a listed body subject to the Regulator’s Code 2014 the Commission must adhere to its principles in its activities."

[Fife-Hibee]

And for a long time there were many Catholics who refused to believe there was abuse in the church. Much like there are many in the Labour Party denying there is anti semitism in their ranks now.

I don't believe for a second Jeremy Corbyn is an anti semite. He has though, along with others, failed to provide the leadership required to deal with the reports of anti semitism within his ranks effectively.

As I said in my original post my point was never to compare the 2 separate issues directly but rather to give my take on the similarities in the attitude that has seen some attacking the alleged victims rather than tackling the issues they raise.

I'm not sure what people think they can do? How do you take action to address a problem, if the problem isn't there to be addressed? What can he actually do?

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not sure what people think they can do? How do you take action to address a problem, if the problem isn't there to be addressed? What can he actually do?

There's really no point in me continuing this conversation. Your absolute refusal to acknowledge that even a single one of the allegations made could have a hint of merit means trying to present any other argument is a completely futile exercise. Any answer I give will be met with your stonewall approach and stock answer that Israel, the Jewish lobby and the biased media is behind the anti semitism complaints.

If you keep going at this rate you'll soon have this board all to yourself. Given your diffuse opinions on every topic and your inate desire to be contrary for the sake of it you'll still be able to have a good argument though.

[GORDONSMITH7]

I'm not sure what people think they can do? How do you take action to address a problem, if the problem isn't there to be addressed? What can he actually do?
Spot on amigo these Jews agree with you, their statement the day after the BBC hatchet job.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

There's really no point in me continuing this conversation. Your absolute refusal to acknowledge that even a single one of the allegations made could have a hint of merit means trying to present any other argument is a completely futile exercise. Any answer I give will be met with your stonewall approach and stock answer that Israel, the Jewish lobby and the biased media is behind the anti semitism complaints.

If you keep going at this rate you'll soon have this board all to yourself. Given your diffuse opinions on every topic and your inate desire to be contrary for the sake of it you'll still be able to have a good argument though.

I have no idea how old you are and how much contact you have had with peadophile priests personally in your experience. Never I guess. That it never happened all over the world would be crass to suggest. With a membership of over 500,000 it would also be crass to say that nobody is anti semetic. Bit like saying that in Edinburgh and environs, there are no anti semites. All I can say is that in 50 years, yes 50 years membership of the Labour Party in East Lothian and Leith, I have never experienced any anti semetic guff, ever.


BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

One thing I do know as fact is that the Prince of Darkness,uber Blairite Peter Mandelson, before this anti Corbyn anti semitism stuff started Mandelson, the architect of New Labour, said he is working every day to undermine Jeremy Corbyn.
Mandelson, a former cabinet minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, told an event for the Jewish Chronicle that he was actively working to bring an end to Corbyn’s leadership. Cue Cilla....surprise, surprise.

Quote .....“Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”

The Jewish Chronicle audience lapped that up.

BIG G

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour angst deepens - peers to consider holding a vote of no confidence in Corbyn at an emergency meeting on Monday - it wouldn't have a direct impact but all cranks up the pressure on him, and if passed, would set another part of the party formally against the leader

[Ozyhibby]

Labour angst deepens - peers to consider holding a vote of no confidence in Corbyn at an emergency meeting on Monday - it wouldn't have a direct impact but all cranks up the pressure on him, and if passed, would set another part of the party formally against the leader

If they move now they could have an electable leader in before the upcoming GE and a large majority awaits them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190718/a4e1106ce0e04974183161b449e648f4.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

Labour angst deepens - peers to consider holding a vote of no confidence in Corbyn at an emergency meeting on Monday - it wouldn't have a direct impact but all cranks up the pressure on him, and if passed, would set another part of the party formally against the leader

No binding power as you say, but such a move is apparently unprecedented:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49031917

The stance Labour have taken on this issue is redolent of Stalinism, with the Corbyn faction now more of a cult than a political movement.

I know this is written by the editor of the Jewish News, but it sums up the way many now see the Labour Party:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-antisemitism-corbyn-watson-formby-jewish-ehrc-investigation-a9006466.html

[G B Young]

If they move now they could have an electable leader in before the upcoming GE and a large majority awaits them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can see why Boris Johnson may be seriously considering an early general election if he becomes PM. Provided he can fit it in while Corbyn's still in charge of Labour then the Tories, despite all that's bedevilled them of late, could actually win it.

[GORDONSMITH7]

If they move now they could have an electable leader in before the upcoming GE and a large majority awaits them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bomber sees that that Oz still does not do irony. A Labour source said it would be “both undemocratic and absurd for unelected peers with no mandate to seek to remove an elected leader who twice won the landslide support of Labour’s membership and led Labour to the biggest increase in the party’s vote since 1945”. Well Oz, you must agree with this surely.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

You can see why Boris Johnson may be seriously considering an early general election if he becomes PM. Provided he can fit it in while Corbyn's still in charge of Labour then the Tories, despite all that's bedevilled them of late, could actually win it.

Bring it on, cannae wait.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

No binding power as you say, but such a move is apparently unprecedented:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49031917

The stance Labour have taken on this issue is redolent of Stalinism, with the Corbyn faction now more of a cult than a political movement.

I know this is written by the editor of the Jewish News, but it sums up the way many now see the Labour Party:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-antisemitism-corbyn-watson-formby-jewish-ehrc-investigation-a9006466.html

Same old rubbish regurgitated by the Editor of Jewish News,quelle surprise.

BIG G

[The Modfather]

Bomber sees that that Oz still does not do irony. A Labour source said it would be “both undemocratic and absurd for unelected peers with no mandate to seek to remove an elected leader who twice won the landslide support of Labour’s membership and led Labour to the biggest increase in the party’s vote since 1945”. Well Oz, you must agree with this surely.

BIG G

Who’s Bomber and why do you keep talking in the 3rd person?

[GORDONSMITH7]

Who’s Bomber and why do you keep talking in the 3rd person?

Bomber can't think of anyone less invisible than you Oz! Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

BIG G

[Mibbes Aye]

Bomber sees that that Oz still does not do irony. A Labour source said it would be “both undemocratic and absurd for unelected peers with no mandate to seek to remove an elected leader who twice won the landslide support of Labour’s membership and led Labour to the biggest increase in the party’s vote since 1945”. Well Oz, you must agree with this surely.

BIG G

More Labour members voted for a clear Remain than voted for Corbyn. You want to talk about mandates, there’s one right there.

Corbyn’s vote number and vote share increase (I’m not sure which you were referring to) were pretty similar to Blair in 1997 and 2001. When Blair did it it meant a parliamentary majority well north of 150, both times. Corbyn managed to finish 55 seats behind the Tories.

No respect for the overwhelming will of the party membership and incapable of winning, even in favourable conditions.

[GlesgaeHibby]

You can see why Boris Johnson may be seriously considering an early general election if he becomes PM. Provided he can fit it in while Corbyn's still in charge of Labour then the Tories, despite all that's bedevilled them of late, could actually win it.

The choice of either Boris or Corbyn is truly horrific.

What annoys me though is that Boris is a proven liar and racist and nothing is made of that, but plenty made of labours antisemitism issues. Both should be called out.

[Ozyhibby]

The choice of either Boris or Corbyn is truly horrific.

What annoys me though is that Boris is a proven liar and racist and nothing is made of that, but plenty made of labours antisemitism issues. Both should be called out.

I wouldn’t vote for either. Both as bad as each other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

There's really no point in me continuing this conversation. Your absolute refusal to acknowledge that even a single one of the allegations made could have a hint of merit means trying to present any other argument is a completely futile exercise. Any answer I give will be met with your stonewall approach and stock answer that Israel, the Jewish lobby and the biased media is behind the anti semitism complaints.

If you keep going at this rate you'll soon have this board all to yourself. Given your diffuse opinions on every topic and your inate desire to be contrary for the sake of it you'll still be able to have a good argument though.

Thanks for answering the question. :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

If they move now they could have an electable leader in before the upcoming GE and a large majority awaits them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If they move now, they can have an electable leader before the upcoming GE who are every bit as much in cahoots with the Israeli lobbyists as Donald Trump and the Conservative Party.

[GORDONSMITH7]

More Labour members voted for a clear Remain than voted for Corbyn. You want to talk about mandates, there’s one right there.

Corbyn’s vote number and vote share increase (I’m not sure which you were referring to) were pretty similar to Blair in 1997 and 2001. When Blair did it it meant a parliamentary majority well north of 150, both times. Corbyn managed to finish 55 seats behind the Tories.

No respect for the overwhelming will of the party membership and incapable of winning, even in favourable conditions.

How on earth do you know what % of Party members voted either way in a private vote? Source. Have you made this up? Are you confusing Members with supporters with Labour held constiuencies, mibbes aye, mibbes no.

Jeremy Corbyn and the Party increased Labour's share of the vote by more than any other of the Party's election leaders since 1945.

Labour's proportion of the vote grew 9.6 % in the last General Election — the biggest swing since Clement Attlee shortly after the Second World War. Source....easy to find.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

What 'actual evidence' do you have that contradicts these allegations?


Spendid. You turn Law of the Land on it's heid. The presumption of innocence is the legal principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty.
It was traditionally expressed by the Latin maxim ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (“the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies”).

This is getting bizarrely daft.

BIG G

[Mibbes Aye]

How on earth do you know what % of Party members voted either way in a private vote? Source. Have you made this up? Are you confusing Members with supporters with Labour held constiuencies, mibbes aye, mibbes no.

Jeremy Corbyn and the Party increased Labour's share of the vote by more than any other of the Party's election leaders since 1945.

Labour's proportion of the vote grew 9.6 % in the last General Election — the biggest swing since Clement Attlee shortly after the Second World War. Source....easy to find.

BIG G

There is no shortage of robust polling, by credible and independent agencies which shows again and again that the Labour Party membership overwhelmingly backs Remain and in far greater numbers than voted for Corbyn. To deny that dashes you of any credibility, when even most Corbynites accept and acknowledge it. The vote for a second referendum at last Conference was passed almost unanimously.

On your other point Labour’s vote share in 2017 did rise by 9.6%. In 1997 it was a close 8.8%

Can you explain why those massive vote rises led to such wildly varying results? Under Blair it meant a Labour majority of 179. Under Corbyn it meant finishing 55 seats behind an utterly discredited Tories.

The man’s a loser, disinterested and commonly held to be the least intellectual Labour leader certainly since WW2 and probably before. Vanity politics for the ‘angry squad’ and just a useful fool for swivel heads like Seamas Milne.

[G B Young]

Spendid. You turn Law of the Land on it's heid. The presumption of innocence is the legal principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty.
It was traditionally expressed by the Latin maxim ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (“the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies”).

This is getting bizarrely daft.

BIG G

The law's not involved here (unless the Panorama whistleblowers follow through on their threat to sue the Labour party).

My question was more directed towards Fife, whose 'proof' that anti-Semitism does not exist in the party comprises a set of what you might well call 'bizarrely daft' allegations. Take a meander back through this thread if you want to familiarise yourself with them.

[Fife-Hibee]

The law's not involved here (unless the Panorama whistleblowers follow through on their threat to sue the Labour party).

My question was more directed towards Fife, whose 'proof' that anti-Semitism does not exist in the party comprises a set of what you might well call 'bizarrely daft' allegations. Take a meander back through this thread if you want to familiarise yourself with them.

I don't need to prove that anti-semitism exists within the Labour Party. Prove to me that it does. The burden of proof is on the accusers, not the accused. As much as you don't like that fact.

[GORDONSMITH7]

There is no shortage of robust polling, by credible and independent agencies which shows again and again that the Labour Party membership overwhelmingly backs Remain and in far greater numbers than voted for Corbyn. To deny that dashes you of any credibility, when even most Corbynites accept and acknowledge it. The vote for a second referendum at last Conference was passed almost unanimously.

On your other point Labour’s vote share in 2017 did rise by 9.6%. In 1997 it was a close 8.8%

Can you explain why those massive vote rises led to such wildly varying results? Under Blair it meant a Labour majority of 179. Under Corbyn it meant finishing 55 seats behind an utterly discredited Tories.

The man’s a loser, disinterested and commonly held to be the least intellectual Labour leader certainly since WW2 and probably before. Vanity politics for the ‘angry squad’ and just a useful fool for swivel heads like Seamas Milne.

Which robust polling. No shortage, cannot show us one.Prove give me 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 examples. It beggars belief you cannot back your statement up. By the way is it the same reliable polling outfits who predicted the wrong result of the last General Election except Survation who were pretty spot on.
Your knowledge and analysis is paper thin mate. I was at the ,last Labour Party Conference and your statement that the vote for a second referendum at last Conference was passed almost unanimously is the sort of guff that could have come from any of the billionaire Tory Press.

For you and other anti Labour posters....here is the full composite resolution..... much of the content in it would be anathema to the same folk...

Passed by Labour conference 2018. The key pledge is that Labour vows to “support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote” should it not be able to secure a general election.

Conference welcomes Jeremy Corbyn’s determined efforts to hold the Tories to account for their disastrous negotiations. Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU, but when people voted to ‘take back control’ they were not voting for fewer rights, economic chaos or to risk jobs. Conference notes the warning made by Jaguar Land Rover on 11.9.18, that without the right deal in place, tens of thousands of jobs there would be put at risk.

Conference notes that workers in industries across the economy in ports, food, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, energy, chemicals, in our public services and beyond are worried about the impact of a hard Brexit on livelihoods and communities.

Conference believes we need a relationship with the EU that guarantees full participation in the Single Market. The Brexit deal being pursued by Theresa May is a threat to jobs, freedom of movement, peace in Northern Ireland and the NHS. Tory Brexit means a future of dodgy trade deals and American-style deregulation, undermining our rights, freedoms and prosperity. This binds the hands of future Labour governments, making it much harder for us to deliver on our promises. Conference notes Labour has set six robust tests for the final Brexit deal. Conference believes Labour MPs must vote against any Tory deal failing to meet these tests in full.

Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option and calls upon Labour MPs to vigorously oppose any attempt by this Government to deliver a no-deal outcome. Conference notes that when trade unions have a mandate to negotiate a deal for their members, the final deal is accepted or rejected by the membership. Conference does not believe that such important negotiations should be left to government ministers who are more concerned with self-preservation and ideology than household bills and wages.

Stagnant wages, crumbling services and the housing crisis are being exacerbated by the government and employers making the rich richer at working people’s expense, and not immigration. Conference declares solidarity and common cause with all progressive and socialist forces confronting the rising tide of neo-fascism, xenophobia, nationalism and right wing populism in Europe.

Conference resolves to reaffirm the Labour Party’s commitment to the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 including no hard border in Ireland.

Conference believes that there is no satisfactory technological solution that is compliant with the Good Friday Agreement and resolves to oppose any Brexit deal that would see the restoration of a border on the island of Ireland in any form for goods, services or people.

Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.

If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.

This should be the first step in a Europe-wide struggle for levelling-up of living standards, rights and services and democratisation of European institutions Labour will form a radical government; taxing the rich to fund better public services, expanding common ownership, abolishing anti-union laws and engaging in massive public investment.

BIG G

[Mibbes Aye]

Which robust polling. No shortage, cannot show us one.Prove give me 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 examples. It beggars belief you cannot back your statement up. By the way is it the same reliable polling outfits who predicted the wrong result of the last General Election except Survation who were pretty spot on.
Your knowledge and analysis is paper thin mate. I was at the ,last Labour Party Conference and your statement that the vote for a second referendum at last Conference was passed almost unanimously is the sort of guff that could have come from any of the billionaire Tory Press.

For you and other anti Labour posters....here is the full composite resolution..... much of the content in it would be anathema to the same folk...

Passed by Labour conference 2018. The key pledge is that Labour vows to “support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote” should it not be able to secure a general election.

Conference welcomes Jeremy Corbyn’s determined efforts to hold the Tories to account for their disastrous negotiations. Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU, but when people voted to ‘take back control’ they were not voting for fewer rights, economic chaos or to risk jobs. Conference notes the warning made by Jaguar Land Rover on 11.9.18, that without the right deal in place, tens of thousands of jobs there would be put at risk.

Conference notes that workers in industries across the economy in ports, food, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, energy, chemicals, in our public services and beyond are worried about the impact of a hard Brexit on livelihoods and communities.

Conference believes we need a relationship with the EU that guarantees full participation in the Single Market. The Brexit deal being pursued by Theresa May is a threat to jobs, freedom of movement, peace in Northern Ireland and the NHS. Tory Brexit means a future of dodgy trade deals and American-style deregulation, undermining our rights, freedoms and prosperity. This binds the hands of future Labour governments, making it much harder for us to deliver on our promises. Conference notes Labour has set six robust tests for the final Brexit deal. Conference believes Labour MPs must vote against any Tory deal failing to meet these tests in full.

Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option and calls upon Labour MPs to vigorously oppose any attempt by this Government to deliver a no-deal outcome. Conference notes that when trade unions have a mandate to negotiate a deal for their members, the final deal is accepted or rejected by the membership. Conference does not believe that such important negotiations should be left to government ministers who are more concerned with self-preservation and ideology than household bills and wages.

Stagnant wages, crumbling services and the housing crisis are being exacerbated by the government and employers making the rich richer at working people’s expense, and not immigration. Conference declares solidarity and common cause with all progressive and socialist forces confronting the rising tide of neo-fascism, xenophobia, nationalism and right wing populism in Europe.

Conference resolves to reaffirm the Labour Party’s commitment to the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 including no hard border in Ireland.

Conference believes that there is no satisfactory technological solution that is compliant with the Good Friday Agreement and resolves to oppose any Brexit deal that would see the restoration of a border on the island of Ireland in any form for goods, services or people.

Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.

If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.

This should be the first step in a Europe-wide struggle for levelling-up of living standards, rights and services and democratisation of European institutions Labour will form a radical government; taxing the rich to fund better public services, expanding common ownership, abolishing anti-union laws and engaging in massive public investment.

BIG G

You are showing yourself up a bit I’m afraid. I’m not an anti-Labour voter like you say, I’ve been a CLP member for years. There was a show of hands vote on a second referendum and there were very few hands raised in opposition, it was bordering on unanimous. And if you want polling, you appear to know how to post online so I am sure you can manage to use Google, I’m not here to do your research.

I see you aren’t responding to the point about vote share anymore though. That’s hardly surprising as it tells the truth about Corbyn’s chances of actually being able to effectively govern - tons of shored up votes in safe North London seats and not a sniff of a working Commons majority.

You are maybe old enough to want to fight yesterday’s battles but I have no desire to repeat the nonsense of the eighties that made Labour unelectable.

If you genuinely are a CLP member then it must be beyond your capacity not to recognise that the vast majority of the membership want to Remain, including the majority of the influx through Momentum. It’s just the bitter old warriors, stuck in dated paradigms with a Bennite view of the EEC (and that’s what it is because they can’t deal with how the EEC transformed into the EU).

Sad for the party, sad for the movement and sad for the country.

[Hibbyradge]

The law's not involved here (unless the Panorama whistleblowers follow through on their threat to sue the Labour party).

My question was more directed towards Fife, whose 'proof' that anti-Semitism does not exist in the party comprises a set of what you might well call 'bizarrely daft' allegations. Take a meander back through this thread if you want to familiarise yourself with them.

"Aggressive assertions without facts".

That's what Theresa May criticised in her speech. I'm not sure to whom she was referring.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Bomber says,you don't do irony Oz lad do you. 60 unelected Blairite Labour Lords put a paid advert in the Guardian saying Corbyn is a bad man. Oh really,dinnae make me laugh. By the way an Israeli official close to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused Jeremy Corbyn of Jew-hatred on yesterday. What a surprise! This drawn out Zinoviev Letter continues on relentlessly. Ironically the Daily Mail which were guilty in 1924 are still involved up to their necks along with the billionaire uk media.

By the way as I type the first utterances of dud Theresa May,at Prime Ministers Questions repeated what you said about the 60 'respected Labour Party members'. You are in good company Oz.

BIG G

God knows how much a full page advert in the anti Corbyn Guardian costs. It should be noted that they pulled a letter signed by over over 100 prominent Jews supporting Chris Williamson MP, following a complaint from The Board of Deputies of British Jews. I read it when published, the next day I clicked the link again and it was not there just a banner saying this letter is under investigation. Still no response on it. I do not think folk like Chomsky will let it lie.
The Guardian has however published letters about the advert by the unelected Labour Peers.....as printed and unedited....below
BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Antisemitism, Labour and Jeremy Corbyn
Readers respond to an advertisement from 67 Labour peers claiming that the party’s leader had ‘failed the test of leadership’ over his handling of antisemitism complaints........

The advertisement from Labour peers (Peers tell Corbyn he has ‘failed test of leadership’, 17 July) does a fine job in spelling out accusations against Jeremy Corbyn (saying he is “presiding over the most shaming period in Labour’s history” shows peers still in denial over Iraq, never mind 1931), but unhelpfully they say nothing about what should be done next.

Labour leaders, Jeremy Corbyn included, are not responsible for enforcing the rules and constitution of the party. That is the responsibility of the National Executive Committee (NEC), of which the leader is only one member. Discipline is the responsibility of the National Constitutional Committee (NCC), and Jeremy is not part of this at all. The party’s rules are not imposed, dictated by or changed by the leader.


After a period when the governance unit was under-resourced, and the NEC singularly failed to address the problem, and ignored recommendations which would have helped, contrary to the peers’ view, the party structures in relation to complaints have been strengthened in the last year. The NCC has been expanded, legal representation increased. In February, general secretary Jennie Formby reported that since April 2018 the party had investigated 673 complaints against members and gave details of progress. It would be helpful for Formby’s deputy now to give an update so we can see exactly what has been done to address the party’s antisemitism problem, and what remains to be done.
Phil Tate
Edinburgh

It was a famous Jewish singer, Bob Dylan, who coined the lyric “Money doesn’t talk, it swears”, which seems quite apt for the minority of Labour peers who have paid for an advert to subvert the democratically expressed wishes of Labour members who have twice voted overwhelmingly for Jeremy Corbyn to lead the party.

In those leadership elections of 2015 and 2016, thousands of Labour members – overwhelmingly Corbyn supporters – many with decades of commitment to the party, and including a significant number of Jews, were told they were definitely unwelcome in the most brutal way, when they were summarily suspended and excluded from participating in those elections with little or no explanation.


I know the toll that had on individuals, whose reputations, social networks and self-esteem were seriously damaged overnight by unfounded allegations or none at all. Who was overseeing that process? Iain McNicol, the party’s general secretary until 2018, who is one of the signatories of this advert.

As an elected officer of my constituency Labour party I have never felt at all unwelcome as a Jew in the party, where I am surrounded by people who have fought racism and bigotry all their lives, including other Jews. The worst I have felt is great embarrassment at the reactionary interventions and policy positions put forward by some of the same Labour peers who signed that advert, such as Peter Mandelson, John Reid and Michael Levy.

David Rosenberg
London

Full-page Guardian adverts won’t come cheap, of course, even between 67 people. I find myself asking why they’ve done it? I note the names like Mandelson in there, whose hostility to Corbyn is very well documented, but it does appear to me that people who have never accepted Corbyn as leader of the party have now decided that losing a possible forthcoming general election to the Tories is a price worth paying to rid the party of him. Interesting to note, too, that Donald Trump is now using the same kind of language against “the squad” of four female Democrats, that they too are antisemitic. The 67 Labour peers now find themselves sharing the same kind of ideology that Trump does. I also find that disheartening, and unsurprising, sadly.

John Holroyd
Thornhill, Dumfries

With Jeremy Corbyn’s swift action in sacking his Brexit spokesperson in the Lords (Corbyn sacks senior peer over ‘Hitler bunker’ remark, 18 July), I hope the 67 fellow Labour peers who attacked Mr Corbyn in an advert in the Guardian on 17 July for not taking leadership on controversial comments by Labour members will be happy that they have had a quick impact.

Dr David Lowry
Stoneleigh, Surrey

I actually drew some limited comfort from reading the names of former Commons colleagues – now peers – in their advert attacking the conduct of the party leader. I had genuinely been under the impression that several of them were dead.
David Hinchliffe
Labour MP for Wakefield, 1987-2005
The Labour peers who signed an advert in Wednesday’s Guardian would be most welcome to come to our constituency Labour party and explain to the many Jewish members, including our immediate past chair, why they are apparently no longer welcome in the party.

Professor Emeritus Nick Spencer
Leamington Spa, Warwickshire

John Harris (Labour can effect positive change despite its discord, 15 July) seems to have let his enthusiasm for linking anti-imperialism and antisemitism run away with him. In particular he tries to show a connection between Jeremy Corbyn, some of his advisers and the political forces who “eventually formed the deeply inconsistent and compromised Stop the War coalition”.

We have always been consistent in opposing our government’s military interventions, and – far from being compromised – the Chilcot inquiry vindicated our criticisms, as do the continued failed wars from Libya to Afghanistan. We opposed bombing by Russia in Syria, but argued that intervention by the US and UK would lead to further misery for ordinary Syrians. We currently oppose Trump’s dangerous escalation of conflict with Iran.


The latest attempt to blame the left for antisemitism is turning reality on its head. Those fighting imperialism have long been champions of anti-racism, including antisemitism, and we are proud that some of those most able and consistent at doing so have been Jewish.
Lindsey German
Convener, Stop the War Coalition

There is no doubt that there is antisemitism in the Labour party, as everywhere, and it has been badly handled, not least by its equivocating leader, but I would like to ask MPs who have submitted dossiers of complaints just how many turned out to be members of the party, and how many were vile, troublemaking trolls? Figures from the party state, for instance, that the 200 examples submitted by Margaret Hodge concerned 111 people, 91 of whom turned out not to be Labour party members. Reportedly, 1,100 complaints were lodged between April 2018 and January 2019, but 433 (nearly 40%) were found to relate to people who weren’t Labour members.


If the figures have been exaggerated, they have unnecessarily alarmed the Jewish population and made the Labour party seem far more antisemitic than it really is. I therefore hope that the current EHRC investigation publishes some figures on actual membership involvement as against vile social media trolling.

Jeanne Caesar
Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire

That's all folks.

Bomber says any comments folks. Bomber likes a wee bit balance Oz.Auf Wiedersehen Pets.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

You are showing yourself up a bit I’m afraid. I’m not an anti-Labour voter like you say, I’ve been a CLP member for years. There was a show of hands vote on a second referendum and there were very few hands raised in opposition, it was bordering on unanimous. And if you want polling, you appear to know how to post online so I am sure you can manage to use Google, I’m not here to do your research.

I see you aren’t responding to the point about vote share anymore though. That’s hardly surprising as it tells the truth about Corbyn’s chances of actually being able to effectively govern - tons of shored up votes in safe North London seats and not a sniff of a working Commons majority.

You are maybe old enough to want to fight yesterday’s battles but I have no desire to repeat the nonsense of the eighties that made Labour unelectable.

If you genuinely are a CLP member then it must be beyond your capacity not to recognise that the vast majority of the membership want to Remain, including the majority of the influx through Momentum. It’s just the bitter old warriors, stuck in dated paradigms with a Bennite view of the EEC (and that’s what it is because they can’t deal with how the EEC transformed into the EU).

Sad for the party, sad for the movement and sad for the country.

I am a member of Edinburgh North and Leith Constituency Labour Party and old Edinburgh East for decades.And you? I will willingly give you my membership number if you fancy grassing me up for being a Socialist. I guess from your comments that you have never been at a Compositing Meeting in your puff or recognising a Composite Resolution if staring you in the face.

BIG G

[Mibbes Aye]

I am a member of Edinburgh North and Leith Constituency Labour Party and old Edinburgh East for decades.And you? I will willingly give you my membership number if you fancy grassing me up for being a Socialist. I guess from your comments that you have never been at a Compositing Meeting in your puff or recognising a Composite Resolution if staring you in the face.

BIG G

This is nothing to do with composite motions.

I said that the membership were massively more in favour of Remain than Corbyn. They are. I think you know that. You have posted a load of extraneous stuff but it doesn’t get away from the fact there was a near-unanimous show of hands vote. I mean for goodness sake, are you really saying you don’t think the vast majority of the membership are Remain?

You also queried polling - it takes literally a few seconds to Google and see tons of comprehensive data from all the accepted and respected polling organisations about how heavily pro-Remain the membership and the affiliates are.

And I take it you are dropping the lauding of Corbyn for his vote share in 2017, given it just shows his entire lack of ability to win the power to do anything.

As for ‘grassing you up for being a Socialist’, please! I wouldn’t begin to know if you were a socialist, but you are good at copying and pasting. Less words, more content would be my advice.

[GORDONSMITH7]

There was a vote on a composite resolution as outlined above. Not as you infer a unanimous vote on a second referendum.That did not happen. Which CLP do you attend. Forgotten that too? At it I think.
As a 66 year old with 50 years LP membership the last thing I am about to do is take advice from 12 year old Blairites.

BIG G

[G B Young]

There is no shortage of robust polling, by credible and independent agencies which shows again and again that the Labour Party membership overwhelmingly backs Remain and in far greater numbers than voted for Corbyn. To deny that dashes you of any credibility, when even most Corbynites accept and acknowledge it. The vote for a second referendum at last Conference was passed almost unanimously.

On your other point Labour’s vote share in 2017 did rise by 9.6%. In 1997 it was a close 8.8%

Can you explain why those massive vote rises led to such wildly varying results? Under Blair it meant a Labour majority of 179. Under Corbyn it meant finishing 55 seats behind an utterly discredited Tories.

The man’s a loser, disinterested and commonly held to be the least intellectual Labour leader certainly since WW2 and probably before. Vanity politics for the ‘angry squad’ and just a useful fool for swivel heads like Seamas Milne.

Well put.

[G B Young]

I don't need to prove that anti-semitism exists within the Labour Party. Prove to me that it does. The burden of proof is on the accusers, not the accused. As much as you don't like that fact.

As I've said several times now, when you have clear acknowledgement from the leader of the party himself along with a number of his closest circle (Abbott, McDonnell and Thornberry for example) that the problem exists then I'm not clear what further proof a reasonable onlooker would require. The question is not whether it exists but whether Labour have allowed the issue to flourish due to inaction. Clarity on this will be provided once the EHRC have concluded their investigation. I don't pretend to be party to the evidence which has been submitted to them due the confidentiality of the investigation.

As Pretty Boy has pointed out, your own take on the matter appears to be that the problem does not exist on the sole basis that you don't think it does.

[Hibbyradge]

There was a vote on a composite resolution as outlined above. Not as you infer a unanimous vote on a second referendum.That did not happen. Which CLP do you attend. Forgotten that too? At it I think.
As a 66 year old with 50 years LP membership the last thing I am about to do is take advice from 12 year old Blairites.

BIG G

What was the term Mibbes Aye used?

Oh yes, "the angry squad". How apt.

Faced with a difficult argument, attack the individual making it.

Aggression and bullying seems to have replaced political discussion in this country.

[Pete]

What was the term Mibbes Aye used?

Oh yes, "the angry squad". How apt.

Faced with a difficult argument, attack the individual making it.

Aggression and bullying seems to have replaced political discussion in this country.

Calling people disinterested losers and questioning their intellect certainly ties in with what you say in your final point.

I’m keeping quiet in this debate from now on because there’s nothing more that any of his detractors can say that hasn’t already been said (saying that, no doubt there’ll be some other laughable smears designed to paint a man with good intentions in a bad light). The acid test will be a general election and once again I wouldn’t trust those well informed, well educated pollsters armed with historic facts as they were dreadfully wrong last time. Will people prioritise social justice over perceived indecision on Brexit? See you at the exit polls to find out.

I've listened to the arguments from the centrists and while they make a lot of sense, the nature of their attacks say more. Policies, ideas and economics that would stop them enjoying the best of both worlds are as unacceptable to them as they are to those who are supposedly the real enemy of the labour movement.

I suppose that unlike the tories, the centrists in the Labour Party are rent-seekers with a bit of a conscience.

[GORDONSMITH7]

As I've said several times now, when you have clear acknowledgement from the leader of the party himself along with a number of his closest circle (Abbott, McDonnell and Thornberry for example) that the problem exists then I'm not clear what further proof a reasonable onlooker would require. The question is not whether it exists but whether Labour have allowed the issue to flourish due to inaction. Clarity on this will be provided once the EHRC have concluded their investigation. I don't pretend to be party to the evidence which has been submitted to them due the confidentiality of the investigation.

As Pretty Boy has pointed out, your own take on the matter appears to be that the problem does not exist on the sole basis that you don't think it does.

This should be interesting. Some Commissioners of the EHRC ( have been challenged for conflicts of interests in cases prior to this one.) It is not widely known, as is the organisation to be fair, to most punters that the group who initated this investigation is the shady 'Charity' The Campaign Against Antisemitism


DAVID ROSENBERG
SATURDAY, MARCH 9, 2019

Now, who has got a problem with discrimination?

DAVID ROSENBERG takes a closer look at the Campaign Against Antisemitism


THE Equalities and Human Rights Commission, a body created by the Labour Party when in government, has announced that it is following up dossiers of complaints about anti-semitism in the Labour Party submitted by the self-styled “Campaign Against Antisemitism” (CAA) and the Labour Party affiliate, the Jewish Labour Movement, and may launch a formal investigation to see if Labour has discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs.

CAA sounds plausible by its name. Let’s hope the EHRC carries out due diligence on the group, though, before going any further.

To get a flavour of what CAA is about, the EHRC may wish to investigate CAA’s petition launched last August which started life as “Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite and must go.”

It was compelled to change it to “…anti-semite and the Labour Party must act.” It also edited the original text supporting its original petition which contained the libellous claim that Corbyn had been “seeking out and giving his backing to Holocaust deniers” since he became party leader.

Nevertheless the petition attracted a large number of signatures, including many from Israel and the US. Signatories were also invited to leave comments.

I would strongly recommend that the EHRC ask the CAA for a full list of the comments that were originally published on the petition and were left there by the CAA for several days before they were forced to remove them, after people protested and complained to the Charity Commissioners.

Here is a small sample of some of the comments that were left there by this body that is accusing others of discrimination that I gathered in a short perusal of them:

“Corbyn is a danger to the uk he hates the uk and white men he is ****.”

“He is disgrace to the people actually born and bred in this country.”

“We are an island and cannot take any more migrants, and he would welcome a million more.”

“Corbyn is a communist and terrorist supporter, he is persecuting the Jews who are peaceful people unlike the immigrants he wants to flood the country with.”

“This pond **** should not be allowed to be a public figure.”

“This man is a treasonous snake who is of grave danger to our country.”

“Jeremy is a ******.”

“Corbyn is a dirty nazi.”

“It would not surprise me if he had Mein Kampf by the side of his bed.”

“This piece of terrorist loving anti-semite **** is poison.”

“Let’s get this *******!”

“I would prefer for someone to shoot him.”

Given the racist abuse and death threats that the CAA accepted and tolerated on its petition until it was forced to remove the comments page, is the CAA the kind of organisation the EHRC really wants to co-operate with?

And is the Jewish Labour Movement, currently playing a game of brinkmanship with the Labour Party over whether it might disaffiliate, proud of its association with CAA in this approach to the EHRC, given the kinds of views that CAA published on its petition?

This article is written in a personal capacity.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

Dark forces in the media at work yet again.

https://i.ibb.co/mXRJtVB/fixed.png

[Mibbes Aye]

Another great day to dispel any suggestion that Jeremy’s acolytes are toxifying what used to be a broad church in the Labour movement.

Despite the dissembling in the post above, Gloria del Piero cited the ‘lack of tolerance for different viewpoints’ in stepping down from the Labour front bench. She’s a loss to the party.

Meanwhile, Hilary Armstrong, a longstanding member of the party and a servant in Government was expelled by her CLP for signing the advertisement during the week that was critical of the leadership.

This especially is pathetic. As a backbencher Corbyn voted against his own party 400-500 times in the Commons but enjoyed the freedom to do so and took advantage of the Labour Party’s support and resources every time he sought re-election.

Hypocrisy by the shipload in the Labour Party these days.

[JeMeSouviens]

Another great day to dispel any suggestion that Jeremy’s acolytes are toxifying what used to be a broad church in the Labour movement.

Despite the dissembling in the post above, Gloria del Piero cited the ‘lack of tolerance for different viewpoints’ in stepping down from the Labour front bench. She’s a loss to the party.

Meanwhile, Hilary Armstrong, a longstanding member of the party and a servant in Government was expelled by her CLP for signing the advertisement during the week that was critical of the leadership.

This especially is pathetic. As a backbencher Corbyn voted against his own party 400-500 times in the Commons but enjoyed the freedom to do so and took advantage of the Labour Party’s support and resources every time he sought re-election.

Hypocrisy by the shipload in the Labour Party these days.

Was GdP not specifically talking about the intolerance of people calling her out for being a born again Leaver?

[Mibbes Aye]

Was GdP not specifically talking about the intolerance of people calling her out for being a born again Leaver?

She said that the party was about a set of values, not an individual and that members being accused of being right-wing was utterly offensive.

I know she got some stick for being against a second referendum, so there are different causals in there but I think the first paragraph especially makes it clear that the toxification and cultism are the presenting issues of concern.

[Fife-Hibee]

She quite clearly stated that she's not leaving as a result of "intolerance". But that doesn't fit the narrative. So let's just completely ignore that she said that. :faf:

[GORDONSMITH7]

She quite clearly stated that she's not leaving as a result of "intolerance". But that doesn't fit the narrative. So let's just completely ignore that she said that. :faf:

Spot on amigo. It is spendid that you as a non Labour Party supporter never mind member, can see right through all this *****. Well done to you.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

https://www.socialist.net/blairite-attacks-escalate-defend-corbyn-fight-for-socialism.htm

BIG G

[marinello59]

She quite clearly stated that she's not leaving as a result of "intolerance". But that doesn't fit the narrative. So let's just completely ignore that she said that. :faf:

Corbyn described the ‘Freedom for Humanity ‘ mural as deeply disturbing and anti Semitic. But that didn’t fit your narrative. You don’t do irony do you?

[marinello59]

https://www.socialist.net/blairite-attacks-escalate-defend-corbyn-fight-for-socialism.htm

BIG G

What about those of us on the outside watching the Labour Party engage in civil war at a time we really need them to stand up to the Tories. Back in more youthful times I grew disenchanted with the WRP as it spend more time fighting itself than actually doing any good. It’s depressing as hell watching all this when the Tories are so weak.

[Ozyhibby]

What about those of us on the outside watching the Labour Party engage in civil war at a time we really need them to stand up to the Tories. Back in more youthful times I grew disenchanted with the WRP as it spend more time fighting itself than actually doing any good. It’s depressing as hell watching all this when the Tories are so weak.

The minute Corbyn won the leadership on the back of votes from people who joined Labour specifically to put him there, this was always going to happen. He is a Tory party dream.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11680016/Why-Tories-should-join-Labour-and-back-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/why-i-was-right-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn/amp/

4 years on and the Labour Party still can’t get rid of a guy who could not beat Theresa May in an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn described the ‘Freedom for Humanity ‘ mural as deeply disturbing and anti Semitic. But that didn’t fit your narrative. You don’t do irony do you?

Based on a quote that accusers like yourself take completely out of context from the article that the quote appeared in.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

[Fife-Hibee]

The minute Corbyn won the leadership on the back of votes from people who joined Labour specifically to put him there, this was always going to happen. He is a Tory party dream.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11680016/Why-Tories-should-join-Labour-and-back-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/why-i-was-right-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn/amp/

4 years on and the Labour Party still can’t get rid of a guy who could not beat Theresa May in an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The minute Corbyn won the leadership, there were people within the party who wanted him out. The same people still want him out and are prepared to do whatever it takes to get him out. Even if it means damaging the party to the point where we have tories for many decades to come. Because Labour, just like the democrats in America, would rather have a bumbling far-right racist buffoon leading the country than someone with true anti-neoliberal socialist principles.

[marinello59]

Based on a quote that accusers like yourself take completely out of context from the article that the quote appeared in.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

Accusers such as yourself? What does that even mean?
Poor stuff again from you which really only goes to prove the point I was making. :aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

Accusers such as yourself? What does that even mean?
Poor stuff again from you which really only goes to prove the point I was making. :aok:

What point is that? You never back your points up with anything.

[marinello59]

What point is that? You never back your points up with anything.

I could point you towards several threads where you have simply disappeared when your wild assertions have been challenged at length.
How about we start with your claim that we only have devolution because the EU imposed it on us? Lots of evidence offered by myself and others as to dispute that. You legged it from the thread. That’s the norm for you though .

[Fife-Hibee]

I could point you towards several threads where you have simply disappeared when your wild assertions have been challenged at length.
How about we start with your claim that we only have devolution because the EU imposed it on us? Lots of evidence offered by myself and others as to dispute that. You legged it from the thread. That’s the norm for you though .

What evidence was that? Links to Labours own claims that it was their desire to devolve a parliament with powers to Scotland? If those claims were actually true, then why did they put by far the weakest proposals for further devolution to the Smith Commission in 2014? Even the tories were proposing further devolution than Labour were.

How did they go from being so pro-devolution to anti-devolution over the space of 20 years? Unless of course, they were never pro-devolution at all and are taking credit for something that they were never really in favour of to begin with.

[G B Young]

Based on a quote that accusers like yourself take completely out of context from the article that the quote appeared in.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

'I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. I wholeheartedly support its removal.'

I fail to see how these words can be taken 'completely out of context'. Corbyn couldn't have been clearer (a rare feat for him I grant you).

[Fife-Hibee]

'I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. I wholeheartedly support its removal.'

I fail to see how these words can be taken 'completely out of context'. Corbyn couldn't have been clearer (a rare feat for him I grant you).

Could he have not been any clearer when he said ""Why? You are in good company" to the artist himself when the artist was lamenting his art being taken down on the false claim of anti-semitism? (anti-semitism claims that he has always rejected)

Corbyn even compared it to 'Man at the Crossroads'. So he must have taken a bloody good look at it before making that comparison.

[marinello59]

What evidence was that? Links to Labours own claims that it was their desire to devolve a parliament with powers to Scotland? If those claims were actually true, then why did they put by far the weakest proposals for further devolution to the Smith Commission in 2014? Even the tories were proposing further devolution than Labour were.

How did they go from being so pro-devolution to anti-devolution over the space of 20 years? Unless of course, they were never pro-devolution at all and are taking credit for something that they were never really in favour of to begin with.

Why don’t you go back and read my replies. I pointed you towards the history of how the Parliament came about thanks to co-operation across parties , unions, civic leaders etc.. you simply ignored all of it and failed to provide one shred of evidence that the EU imposed devolution on the UK. Nothing. You simply ran away again. You could of course go back, read it and reply now. We both know you won’t though.

[marinello59]

'I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. I wholeheartedly support its removal.'

I fail to see how these words can be taken 'completely out of context'. Corbyn couldn't have been clearer (a rare feat for him I grant you).

He couldn’t have been any clearer and that is to his credit. Corbyn has his flaws but I don’t believe he is an anti semite.
Fife has however moved on from claiming he never said those words to claiming he said them but only to appease the MSM and his accusers to now claiming that they were taken out of context.
Three positions on it so far and counting. :greengrin

[G B Young]

He couldn’t have been any clearer and that is to his credit. Corbyn has his flaws but I don’t believe he is an anti semite.
Fife has however moved on from claiming he never said those words to claiming he said them but only to appease the MSM and his accusers to now claiming that they were taken out of context.
Three positions on it so far and counting. :greengrin


Another open acknowledgement today from Corbyn that there's 'a real problem of anti-Semitism' within the party, coupled with an apology for the 'hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people'.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/jeremy-corbyn-apologises-hurt-jewish-people-labour-antisemitism

[Hibbyradge]

Another open acknowledgement today from Corbyn that there's 'a real problem of anti-Semitism' within the party, coupled with an apology for the 'hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people'.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/jeremy-corbyn-apologises-hurt-jewish-people-labour-antisemitism

"Corbyn said the party had a “real problem” with anti-Jewish racism"

But we all know that's not true and he's only saying it to appease the MSM though.

Who'd have thunk it? Jezza appeasing the MSM.

Funny old world. Innit? As they say in Islington.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Another open acknowledgement today from Corbyn that there's 'a real problem of anti-Semitism' within the party, coupled with an apology for the 'hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people'.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/jeremy-corbyn-apologises-hurt-jewish-people-labour-antisemitism

I take it that you disaprove of these actions gbyoungconservative. The right wing Jewish Labour Movement are saying ,too little too late. The BBC as usual gave a half truth on the 10.00 News. Labour have produce a leaflet...that was it. All rather predictable.Cue witchunter Watson, cannae wait.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Dear Gordon,


The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.


That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.


Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.


While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.


The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.

So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.

I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.


In solidarity,


Signed, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Leader of the Labour Party

[marinello59]

Dear Gordon,


The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.


That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.


Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.


While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.


The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.

So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.

I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.


In solidarity,


Signed, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Leader of the Labour Party

Good to see that they are going to use the best weapon there is to combat prejudice, education.

[RyeSloan]

Dear Gordon,


The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.


That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.


Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.


While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.


The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.

So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.

I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.


In solidarity,


Signed, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Leader of the Labour Party

Is this a spoof?

Must be cause Fife told me this was a problem that didn’t exist ....

[GORDONSMITH7]

Good to see that they are going to use the best weapon there is to combat prejudice, education.

Spot on amigo. Unfortunately the political attacks by Blairites against Corbyn and more importantly a left Government have to be argued against vigorously. Tom Watson, Jess Philips,Wes Streeting, Yvette Cooper,Liz Kendal et al BBC/ITV Blairite Lovies, on continiously for past 3 years on Question Time, Daily Politics, Peston,Morning with Bams. Splendid earner above inflated MP wage and expenses will be thinking up the next attack as I type.

The fight against the billionaire MSM with the same Tory boy agenda is not so easy although I guess Facebook ,Twitter and the likes seem effective vehicles, though I have never been on either. I like others will call out these Shysters, wherever I can, whether on Hibs websites or in boozers after a game,after a far more important two hour synopsis of how Hibs did. FFS sometimes that can go on longer than the Brexit farrago. No, not that wee.........,....,...... Farage.


BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Is this a spoof?

Must be cause Fife told me this was a problem that didn’t exist ....

Are you happy now son. If you are less than 66 years auld, happy to call you son. Well that's that then. Still waiting for a guy who qustioned my Labour Party credentials of 50 years membership. On giving thourough details to him and everyone on here, bottling to give up the same quid pro quo. Highland Dancer.

BIG G

[lapsedhibee]

Dear Gordon,


The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.


That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.


Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.


While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.


The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.

So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.

I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.


In solidarity,


Signed, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Leader of the Labour Party

Date of this letter? :dunno:

[G B Young]

As per usual, it's all talk with no actual evidence provided of any of this apparent "attacking".

From Corbyn's letter today:

'The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.'

[G B Young]

Date of this letter? :dunno:

Sent to party members today I believe.

A long overdue step in the right direction, but may well have come a bit too late if the latest polling which shows his support among party members continuing to ebb is anything to go by:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-antisemitism-row-collapse-in-grassroots-support-for-corbyn-hgzpzst7q

[lapsedhibee]

Sent to party members today I believe.

A long overdue step in the right direction, but may well have come a bit too late

Ta. Sounds like it's years, rather than days, weeks or months, overdue.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Sent to party members today I believe.

A long overdue step in the right direction, but may well have come a bit too late if the latest polling which shows his support among party members continuing to ebb is anything to go by:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-antisemitism-row-collapse-in-grassroots-support-for-corbyn-hgzpzst7q
No yesterday. Keep up. It was on here before the billionaire press.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Date of this letter? :dunno:

Yesterday at 12.09 pm to be precise. As I predicted the 'too little too late' brigade out in force.

BIG G

[lapsedhibee]

Yesterday at 12.09 pm to be precise. As I predicted the 'too little too late' brigade out in force.

BIG G

Too early to say whether it's too late, but it's certainly late. The billionaire press have had their teeth in this for a looooooong time.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Sent to party members today I believe.

A long overdue step in the right direction, but may well have come a bit too late if the latest polling which shows his support among party members continuing to ebb is anything to go by:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-antisemitism-row-collapse-in-grassroots-support-for-corbyn-hgzpzst7q

Oops, you seem to have no recall that the same article also
said...more than 80% of members still think the Labour leader has the "right priorities for the country".
As this was a YouGov poll, which totally ersed the prediction of the last Election. I am relaxed. So do Fatboy Slim Watson and the Blairites hence no overt third Chicken Coup.....yet.

BIG G

[Hibbyradge]

Yesterday at 12.09 pm to be precise. As I predicted the 'too little too late' brigade out in force.

BIG G

That wasn't difficult to predict really was it, because it's true.

Have you seen the current mess Labour is in over this? It should have been dealt with years ago.

Or do you think the timing is impeccable?

[GORDONSMITH7]

That wasn't difficult to predict really was it, because it's true.

Have you seen the current mess Labour is in over this? It should have been dealt with years ago.

Or do you think the timing is impeccable?
I think right wingers on here are utterly predictable.
I personaly know many splendid Hibernians on here over decades. The anti Labour party crap you and others on this thread do not represent minutely the feelings of these spendid, honest,
people.

I will get back to being a long time Admin. on the Hibeesbounce. Many of good St. Patrick's Branch
members use .net of first port of call. No problem. I will share information on here without a problem amigos. Life is definitely too short as amigos on hear know.

Be back in this thread, revisiting a left Labour government in coalition with the Scottish National Party. Beleive me I have a wedge on it.

**** the Hearts

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

That wasn't difficult to predict really was it, because it's true.

Have you seen the current mess Labour is in over this? It should have been dealt with years ago.

Or do you think the timing is impeccable?

Splendid to sign off to the epitomy of of Radge. Stamp and click your red shoes Dorothy. You are not going to stop this

BIG G

[Hibbyradge]

That wasn't difficult to predict really was it, because it's true.

Have you seen the current mess Labour is in over this? It should have been dealt with years ago.

Or do you think the timing is impeccable?


I think right wingers on here are utterly predictable.
I personaly know many splendid Hibernians on here over decades. The anti Labour party crap you and others on this thread do not represent minutely the feelings of these spendid, honest,
people.

I will get back to being a long time Admin. on the Hibeesbounce. Many of good St. Patrick's Branch
members use .net of first port of call. No problem. I will share information on here without a problem amigos. Life is definitely too short as amigos on hear know.

Be back in this thread, revisiting a left Labour government in coalition with the Scottish National Party. Beleive me I have a wedge on it.

**** the Hearts

BIG G


Splendid to sign off to the epitomy of of Radge. Stamp and click your red shoes Dorothy. You are not going to stop this

BIG G

"No answer", was the loud reply.

[The Modfather]

Am I the only one who wonders if theirs a correlation between Tornadoes70 posting less these days and GordonSmith7 increase in posting? Similar posting styles :hmmm: although I’m probably putting 2+2 together and getting 5.

[ronaldo7]

Am I the only one who wonders if theirs a correlation between Tornadoes70 posting less these days and GordonSmith7 increase in posting? Similar posting styles :hmmm: although I’m probably putting 2+2 together and getting 5.

:agree:

[G B Young]

I think right wingers on here are utterly predictable.
I personaly know many splendid Hibernians on here over decades. The anti Labour party crap you and others on this thread do not represent minutely the feelings of these spendid, honest,
people.

I will get back to being a long time Admin. on the Hibeesbounce. Many of good St. Patrick's Branch
members use .net of first port of call. No problem. I will share information on here without a problem amigos. Life is definitely too short as amigos on hear know.

Be back in this thread, revisiting a left Labour government in coalition with the Scottish National Party. Beleive me I have a wedge on it.

**** the Hearts

BIG G

I was unaware that being a Hibs fan was conditional upon voting Labour.

[Ozyhibby]

Spot on amigo. Unfortunately the political attacks by Blairites against Corbyn and more importantly a left Government have to be argued against vigorously. Tom Watson, Jess Philips,Wes Streeting, Yvette Cooper,Liz Kendal et al BBC/ITV Blairite Lovies, on continiously for past 3 years on Question Time, Daily Politics, Peston,Morning with Bams. Splendid earner above inflated MP wage and expenses will be thinking up the next attack as I type.

The fight against the billionaire MSM with the same Tory boy agenda is not so easy although I guess Facebook ,Twitter and the likes seem effective vehicles, though I have never been on either. I like others will call out these Shysters, wherever I can, whether on Hibs websites or in boozers after a game,after a far more important two hour synopsis of how Hibs did. FFS sometimes that can go on longer than the Brexit farrago. No, not that wee.........,....,...... Farage.


BIG G

Has Corbyn and his team ever thought of going on those shows themselves? It’s called getting your message out there. There is no point complaining about other appearing on those shows when the Labour leader himself declines to get involved. Getting a Labour govt into power is hard work but Corbyn doesn’t seem up for that side of it?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Am I the only one who wonders if theirs a correlation between Tornadoes70 posting less these days and GordonSmith7 increase in posting? Similar posting styles :hmmm: although I’m probably putting 2+2 together and getting 5.

I think you got 55, tbh!

Big G is well known from the Bounce and historically here. Tornadoes has blown in recently on a hurricane of hyperbole, delivering a mish-mashed monsoon of moronic meandering.

[Bostonhibby]

Am I the only one who wonders if theirs a correlation between Tornadoes70 posting less these days and GordonSmith7 increase in posting? Similar posting styles :hmmm: although I’m probably putting 2+2 together and getting 5.Jeez, I sincerely hope you are the only one who thinks that way.

I don't really want to know how you made the connection but I'm pretty sure you don't know Gordon.



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[Future17]

Am I the only one who wonders if theirs a correlation between Tornadoes70 posting less these days and GordonSmith7 increase in posting? Similar posting styles :hmmm: although I’m probably putting 2+2 together and getting 5.

In your defence, I wondered the same. I don't know either of them personally, as others clearly do in one case, but I find the style of writing very difficult to follow and it puts me off bothering with longer posts.

[JeMeSouviens]

May to Corbyn at her last PMQ's:


As a party leader who has accepted when her time is up, perhaps the time is now for him to do the same.

Actually a bit of a zinger from the Maybot!

[southsider]

The Jewish lobby in the press have made Corbyn unelectable so perhaps for the good of the Labour party. He should stand down. Where was the protest of Israel from this group when they bulldozed 300 Palastinian homes for being too near a security fence that Israel built on palastinian land. Be a pound to a penny a new 'Jewish settlement' starts being built on this land within weeks. Israel is the most corrupt, racist nation on Earth. Their biggest defender & supporter is a certain D. Trump. Says it all.

[Colr]

the jewish lobby in the press have made corbyn unelectable so perhaps for the good of the labour party. He should stand down. Where was the protest of israel from this group when they bulldozed 300 palastinian homes for being too near a security fence that israel built on palastinian land. Be a pound to a penny a new 'jewish settlement' starts being built on this land within weeks. Israel is the most corrupt, racist nation on earth. Their biggest defender & supporter is a certain d. Trump. Says it all.

😠 wtaf!

[Betty Boop]

The Jewish lobby in the press have made Corbyn unelectable so perhaps for the good of the Labour party. He should stand down. Where was the protest of Israel from this group when they bulldozed 300 Palastinian homes for being too near a security fence that Israel built on palastinian land. Be a pound to a penny a new 'Jewish settlement' starts being built on this land within weeks. Israel is the most corrupt, racist nation on Earth. Their biggest defender & supporter is a certain D. Trump. Says it all.

Careful now you'll be accused of anti-semetism.

[Bristolhibby]

Careful now you'll be accused of anti-semetism.

Criticise Israel = not Anti Semitic
Hating Jewish people = Anti Semitic.

Israel’s greatest achievement is convincing the world that the two are the same.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

Criticise Israel = not Anti Semitic
Hating Jewish people = Anti Semitic.

Israel’s greatest achievement is convincing the world that the two are the same.

J

Criticising anybody at the top of the corporate ladder is also anti-semitic now.

Because clearly everybody at the top of the corporate ladder is jewish. :agree:

[GlesgaeHibby]

May to Corbyn at her last PMQ's:



Actually a bit of a zinger from the Maybot!

Probably the first time I've agreed with something she has said. Spot on the money there.

[Fife-Hibee]

Probably the first time I've agreed with something she has said. Spot on the money there.

Why? He still has support of the party membership. May lost all of that.

[Colr]

criticising anybody at the top of the corporate ladder is also anti-semitic now.

Because clearly everybody at the top of the corporate ladder is jewish. :agree:

ffs

[JeMeSouviens]

New opinion poll from Wales, with changes since the 2017 GE:

Con 24 (-10)
Lab 22 (-27)
BxP 18 (new)
LD 16 (+11)
PC 15 (+5)
Grn 3 (+3)

[Hibbyradge]

It's just confirmation of what we already know, but Corbyn is an electoral liability.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-poll-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-bounce-brexit-a9024116.html?amp

[Fife-Hibee]

Alastair Campbell giving it the sob story on the BBC this morning unchallenged. Says he can't believe he's giving up on the Labour Party after all this time.

Eh, didn't he give up on the Labour Party the moment he voted for another party then openly said that he did? :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

Alastair Campbell giving it the sob story on the BBC this morning unchallenged. Says he can't believe he's giving up on the Labour Party after all this time.

Eh, didn't he give up on the Labour Party the moment he voted for another party then openly said that he did? :confused:

He speaks for a lot of folk who can see a ****show unfolding and wonder why it isn't being properly opposed.

[Fife-Hibee]

He speaks for a lot of folk who can see a ****show unfolding and wonder why it isn't being properly opposed.

If enough people were on his side, then it would be properly opposed. The fact that it isn't would suggest that there aren't.

[Ozyhibby]

He speaks for a lot of folk who can see a ****show unfolding and wonder why it isn't being properly opposed.

Correct. Boris Johnson is going to win the upcoming GE when there is a 100 seat majority waiting on Labour if they change leader.
Given that Corbyn could not beat Theresa May, what chance does he stand against Johnson?
The Labour Party is in a suicide pact right now and does not know how to get out.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Correct. Boris Johnson is going to win the upcoming GE when there is a 100 seat majority waiting on Labour if they change leader.
Given that Corbyn could not beat Theresa May, what chance does he stand against Johnson?
The Labour Party is in a suicide pact right now and does not know how to get out.


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Perhaps Labour can elect Nigel Farage or some other pro-brexit xenophobic racist as their leader in order to scoop up the votes. Then we can have a tory party in red again.

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps Labour can elect Nigel Farage or some other pro-brexit xenophobic racist as their leader in order to scoop up the votes.

Yep, that was certainly the gist of Campbell's open letter.

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps Labour can elect Nigel Farage or some other pro-brexit xenophobic racist as their leader in order to scoop up the votes. Then we can have a tory party in red again.

Or you could go with Cooper? Or is it better to lose with Corbyn? Labour become like Britain First, a party of protest? Loads of Facebook likes etc but no power to actually do anything.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Or you could go with Cooper? Or is it better to lose with Corbyn? Labour become like Britain First, a party of protest? Loads of Facebook likes etc but no power to actually do anything.


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Cooper is another neoliberal blairite. She may well get Labour into power, but for what? People are sick to their backteeth with neoliberal agendas. Even if Labour did worm their way into power under Cooper, it wouldn't be Labour. It would just be more of what we've had over this past decade dressed up as something different.

Why do some people still not get this?

[Pete]

A yammish “look at me” open letter by someone who is firmly in the centre ground as far as politics is concerned.

Off you pop to the Lib Dem’s now. 👋🏼

[Pete]

Cooper is another neoliberal blairite. She may well get Labour into power, but for what? People are sick to their backteeth with neoliberal agendas. Even if Labour did worm their way into power under Cooper, it wouldn't be Labour. It would just be more of what we've had over this past decade dressed up as something different.

Why do some people still not get this?

Spot on.

People do get it, they just don’t want it. Rent-seekers with a conscience.

[Fife-Hibee]

Cooper would pander to the banking system just as the tories have. Another crash and another gaping hole in the pockets of the less well off.

What's the point?

[lapsedhibee]

Cooper would pander to the banking system just as the tories have. Another crash and another gaping hole in the pockets of the less well off.

What's the point?

:agree: Best to sit back and let Boris and Sajid get on with it themselves.

[Fife-Hibee]

:agree: Best to sit back and let Boris and Sajid get on with it themselves.

That's not what i'm saying. But you want to replace the current problem with the same damn problem.

Perhaps maybe, it's not Corbyn that's the problem.

[Ozyhibby]

That's not what i'm saying. But you want to replace the current problem with the same damn problem.

Perhaps maybe, it's not Corbyn that's the problem.

It is what your saying because that’s what is going to happen.


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[Fife-Hibee]

It is what your saying because that’s what is going to happen.


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Your "solution" isn't a "solution" though.

If you just want more of the same, but under a different political logo, then just admit that. Otherwise, don't attack the man who is only unpopular due to the very system he's a threat to.

[Ozyhibby]

Your "solution" isn't a "solution" though.

If you just want more of the same, but under a different political logo, then just admit that. Otherwise, don't attack the man who is only unpopular due to the very system he's a threat to.

He’s not a threat to anything but the Labour Party.


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[Fife-Hibee]

He’s not a threat to anything but the Labour Party.

Yes, because the current system that he's a threat to has you convinced.

They want nothing more than to have him replaced by another faceless mannequin in a suit and they achieve that by convincing the general public that they want it too.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, because the current system that he's a threat to has you convinced.

They want nothing more than to have him replaced by another faceless mannequin in a suit and they achieve that by convincing the general public that they want it too.

Who’s they?


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[Fife-Hibee]

Who’s they?

Are we really doing this again?

Do you deny there's a system?

[Hibbyradge]

:troll:

[Fife-Hibee]

:troll:

Because everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is a troll. You've been looking for bites for days. So well done for finally getting one. :yawn:

[Hibbyradge]

Because everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is a troll. You've been looking for bites for days. So well done for finally getting one. :yawn:

:faf:

"Looking for bites". :faf:

You're the most contrary poster I've ever encountered.

You do it for attention and you've single handedly ruined this forum.

You're a troll.

Either that or you have a serious personality disorder.

I hope for your sake it's the former.

[Hibbyradge]

By the way, given that I didn't quote anyone, how did you know I was referring to you?

[Fife-Hibee]

:troll:

[Hibbyradge]

:troll:

At least you're admitting it now. A good start.

Next step is to reign it in. Try to only argue unnecessarily on one thread per day for a week or so, then we can move to the next stage, "stop trolling altogether".

[Ozyhibby]

The Labour Party has just been taken over by the SWP. They’ll end up with about as much support as them as well.


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[Fife-Hibee]

The Labour Party has just been taken over by the SWP. They’ll end up with about as much support as them as well.


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Well if Labour were doing so well before the SWP "took over" as you put it, then why did it happen?

[JeMeSouviens]

:faf:

"Looking for bites". :faf:

You're the most contrary poster I've ever encountered.

You do it for attention and you've single handedly ruined this forum.

You're a troll.

Either that or you have a serious personality disorder.

I hope for your sake it's the former.

Too much credit by half.

Anyway, what about the currency ... ?

[JeMeSouviens]

Are we really doing this again?

Do you deny there's a system?

The Tory party has been taken over by lunatics who want to rip up any semblance of what Thatcher left of the post-war consensus. But hey, let's just let that happen so we don't taint anyone's idelogical purity. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Plaid Cymru takes their first ever lead in Welsh Assembly polling (changes versus previous poll from the same series in May):

Welsh Assembly constituency ballot:

Plaid Cymru 24% (n/c)
Labour 21% (-4)
Brexit Party 19% (+2)
Conservatives 19% (+2)
Liberal Democrats 12% (+3)

Welsh Assembly regional list ballot:

Plaid Cymru 23% (+1)
Labour 19% (-2)
Conservatives 18% (+6)
Brexit Party 17% (-6)
Liberal Democrats 12% (+5)
Greens 4% (-4)

[Fife-Hibee]

The Tory party has been taken over by lunatics who want to rip up any semblance of what Thatcher left of the post-war consensus. But hey, let's just let that happen so we don't taint anyone's idelogical purity. :rolleyes:

The tory party haven't been "taken over" by anyone. They have always been lunatics.

But there are people out there who want to fill the Labour Party with the same kind of lunatics, just so they can replace the current set of lunatics in government.

People like Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not the answer to the UKs problems. Sure, it might get Labour into power, but it won't fix this hell hole we call the UK.

All they'll do is push the neoliberal agenda even further creating an even bigger backlash.

[Ozyhibby]

The tory party haven't been "taken over" by anyone. They have always been lunatics.

But there are people out there who want to fill the Labour Party with the same kind of lunatics, just so they can replace the current set of lunatics in government.

People like Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not the answer to the UKs problems. Sure, it might get Labour into power, but it won't fix this hell hole we call the UK.

All they'll do is push the neoliberal agenda even further creating an even bigger backlash.

Just like Labour, there’s no saving you.[emoji23]


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[Fife-Hibee]

Just like Labour, there’s no saving you.[emoji23]


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Tell me where i'm wrong then? Go on.

What's the great Yvette Cooper going to do if she becomes PM? She going to wave a magic wand that keeps the UK in the EU without creating a major backlash?

How is she going to achieve that? Please tell me.

[southsider]

I wondered how long it would take. 4 days ! BJ's new brexit chief talking about scrapping workers right protected under EU law. The man is a monster and have us working 50 hour weeks if he could. We should take a leason from the French where the workers dont take **** no more.

[Ozyhibby]

I wondered how long it would take. 4 days ! BJ's new brexit chief talking about scrapping workers right protected under EU law. The man is a monster and have us working 50 hour weeks if he could. We should take a leason from the French where the workers dont take **** no more.

Yvette Cooper would be the exact same though.[emoji849]


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[weecounty hibby]

It is unbelievable that folk can't see that the majority of people in the UK will not vote for a party led by Corbyn. They might vote for a party led by Cooper though. But hey why would you want the party elected if it doesn't follow Jeremy's doctrine. The starting point surely must be to get into power. This neoliberalism stuff is just total nonsense. Get into government make a difference, make changes that people want and then stay in power. The Tories have remained in power not because they are so popular it's because Corbyn is so unpopular

[RyeSloan]

The tory party haven't been "taken over" by anyone. They have always been lunatics.

But there are people out there who want to fill the Labour Party with the same kind of lunatics, just so they can replace the current set of lunatics in government.

People like Yvette Cooper and Tom Watson are not the answer to the UKs problems. Sure, it might get Labour into power, but it won't fix this hell hole we call the UK.

All they'll do is push the neoliberal agenda even further creating an even bigger backlash.

“Hell hole” really? I love hyperbole like this, really comes across as a sensible and thought out position. I’m sure the half million people descending on Edinburgh this August are just hell hole tourists here to see what hell holes really look like.

[Smartie]

The Labour Party need to be asking themselves some serious questions, and Alastair Campbell is exactly the type of person they should be listening to.

There is no glory in standing on the sidelines with a principled stance whilst this hellish far right Tory shower of ****bags inflict their misery on everyone.

They need to find themselves a pragmatic, sensible, left of centre stance (possibly with the occasional policy that they might find a bit unpalatable and Toryish) for everyone's sake.

They need to fight to remain in the EU. Let the Tories be the party of the no-deal Brexit, kick out any notions that "a better deal" is out there and embrace remain.

Boris will want a GE asap and he will wipe the floor with Corbyn.

It might not be too late if Labour act now, but tbh they needed to do this years ago.

I can't believe how much of a dirty word "Blairite" is when talking about a Labour man who led the party to so many victories. Yes, the man made his mistakes and he had his faults, but he kept some horrible Tory *******s out of power, and that is what the UK needs more than anything right now.

[Hibbyradge]

The left care more about being pure than actually doing anything to help the people who they're supposed to care about.

Boris in power is preferable to compromising any of their supposed principles.

I hope I'm wrong and Corbyn can win, but it looks to me that we're heading for a full 5 year term with Johnson and the ERG running the country.

Or should that be "ruining"?

[Jack]

Maybe the SNP should stand in England and Wales.

If it didn't win the election it would surely make a better attempt at being an opposition.

[Colr]

The left care more about being pure than actually doing anything to help the people who they're supposed to care about.

Boris in power is preferable to compromising any of their supposed principles.

I hope I'm wrong and Corbyn can win, but it looks to me that we're heading for a full 5 year term with Johnson and the ERG running the country.

Or should that be "ruining"?

If Johnson can pull off some kind of Brexit, he will call an election as the Farage vote collapses. You can see the impact alreay in the polls.

[southsider]

Whilst I don’t really agree with the ‘Blaitite wing of Labour Party they have a chance of being Elected in England. Anything is better than we have now. The SNP can then pledge support in return for Indi Fed 2.

[mjhibby]

It is unbelievable that folk can't see that the majority of people in the UK will not vote for a party led by Corbyn. They might vote for a party led by Cooper though. But hey why would you want the party elected if it doesn't follow Jeremy's doctrine. The starting point surely must be to get into power. This neoliberalism stuff is just total nonsense. Get into government make a difference, make changes that people want and then stay in power. The Tories have remained in power not because they are so popular it's because Corbyn is so unpopular

Totaly,totally agree. Corbyn and momentum are unelectable. Middle England will not stomach it. Folk are so selfish now they do everything out of self interest so don't look out for their fellow man. The Labour party is now run by folk who sneer at the working class,the very folk they are meant to look out for and help. We've seen this before with the likes of Derek Hatton and we saw how it ended. Not until labour is out of the grip of momentum will they move forward. The fact they got a pensioner to be leader of their party to do their bidding says it all. Yes the right wing press write totally made up crap about him but it doesn't hide the fact that someone like cooper would be ten points better in the polls. If you can't see that then you are either blinkered or gripped by ideology.
Boris will make a pigs ear of his time in charge but labour won't be the ones to profit. Snp,plaid cymru and the lib Dems will make gains at the Tories and labour expense.
All those keeping Corbyn as a lame duck leader are letting down the electorate but they have their cushy jobs so won't let go. John Smith was the last decent politician to my eyes. The Labour party has been full of charlatans since his death. As usual the ordinary Joe suffers while others play their political games. Shameful utterly shameful. Rant over.

[Hibbyradge]

It's not just Middle England who won't stomach Corbyn as PM.

[Smartie]

It would be interesting to see the level of media attention Corbyn would be attracting if he had presided over the plunge in value that the pound has "enjoyed" over the past couple of pre-Brexit years.

Whilst I'm not exactly a Corbyn fan, I am coming round to wondering exactly how terrible he would be and how we would all notice it relative to what we are likely to experience under Boris?

[GORDONSMITH7]

The Labour Party has just been taken over by the SWP. They’ll end up with about as much support as them as well.


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Bit daft comment, even for a well known daftie.

Get yer Kleenex oot. The most right wing reactionary government has a majority of uno now. SPLENDID.


BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

The Labour Party need to be asking themselves some serious questions, and Alastair Campbell is exactly the type of person they should be listening to.

There is no glory in standing on the sidelines with a principled stance whilst this hellish far right Tory shower of ****bags inflict their misery on everyone.

They need to find themselves a pragmatic, sensible, left of centre stance (possibly with the occasional policy that they might find a bit unpalatable and Toryish) for everyone's sake.

They need to fight to remain in the EU. Let the Tories be the party of the no-deal Brexit, kick out any notions that "a better deal" is out there and embrace remain.

Boris will want a GE asap and he will wipe the floor with Corbyn.

It might not be too late if Labour act now, but tbh they needed to do this years ago.

I can't believe how much of a dirty word "Blairite" is when talking about a Labour man who led the party to so many victories. Yes, the man made his mistakes and he had his faults, but he kept some horrible Tory *******s out of power, and that is what the UK needs more than anything right now.

Do you mean the tiny wee mistakes like lying aided and abetted by spin doctors Mandelson and Campbell ****** lying to you me and everyone else about the situation in Iraq to chuck their right wing

[GORDONSMITH7]

The Labour Party need to be asking themselves some serious questions, and Alastair Campbell is exactly the type of person they should be listening to.

There is no glory in standing on the sidelines with a principled stance whilst this hellish far right Tory shower of ****bags inflict their misery on everyone.

They need to find themselves a pragmatic, sensible, left of centre stance (possibly with the occasional policy that they might find a bit unpalatable and Toryish) for everyone's sake.

They need to fight to remain in the EU. Let the Tories be the party of the no-deal Brexit, kick out any notions that "a better deal" is out there and embrace remain.

Boris will want a GE asap and he will wipe the floor with Corbyn.

It might not be too late if Labour act now, but tbh they needed to do this years ago.

I can't believe how much of a dirty word "Blairite" is when talking about a Labour man who led the party to so many victories. Yes, the man made his mistakes and he had his faults, but he kept some horrible Tory *******s out of power, and that is what the UK needs more than anything right now.

Do you mean the tiny wee mistakes like aided and abetted by spin doctors Mandelson and Campbell, ****** lying to you, me and everyone else about the situation in Iraq to cream their right wing amigo the extremely half witted Bush off.
Assuming you have been orbiting earth for decades can I bring you back down to earth. These actions resulted in 500,000 + innocent Iraqi civilian men, women and children loosing their lifes. Oh and the little subject of religious sectarianism with thousand blown to pieces of flesh and bones after the so called allies ****ed off, ushering as it did the barbaric manifestation called Isis.
Corbyn has been on the side of history opposing this, and the lunacy of intervention in Libya and pissing off to leave a basket case country in barbaric civil war, looking over the abyss.

Blairite, right wing Labour MPs have been attacking Corbyn along with the billionaire Tory press every day since he was elected leader. They are, like a few dafties on here, at one that they do not want to see a Socialist Labour Government.
Mandelson, the Prince of Darkness, gave an interview to an Italian newspaper the other day saying that Labour have to get rid of Corbyn, as has the **** Tory Sun, Mail, Express et al, if they want to have a chance of beating Boris. This disingenuous **** does not wash with half a million Labour Party members. Believe me.

BIG G

[Future17]

Bit daft comment, even for a well known daftie.

Get yer Kleenex oot. The most right wing reactionary government has a majority of uno now. SPLENDID.


BIG G

No need for personal abuse. Not sure whether the time of your post has something to do with it but you may want to delete it.

[marinello59]

Whilst Labour were never going to win the Brecon by-election that was a pretty humiliating result for them. Fourth place with a vote of only 5.2%, down 12.4%.
What do they do now?

[Colr]

Whilst Labour were never going to win the Brecon by-election that was a pretty humiliating result for them. Fourth place with a vote of only 5.2%, down 12.4%.
What do they do now?

Would have lost their deposit if they’d got below 5%.

[Pretty Boy]

Whilst Labour were never going to win the Brecon by-election that was a pretty humiliating result for them. Fourth place with a vote of only 5.2%, down 12.4%.
What do they do now?

A Lib Dem standing on a remain ticket overturning an 8000 majority in a Leave voting area. It's almost as if there is something in having a consistent and clear stance on Brexit.

(I am aware there were other issues at play such as the reason for the by election in the 1st place and other parties not putting up candidates to avoid splitting the remain vote).

[weecounty hibby]

A Lib Dem standing on a remain ticket overturning an 8000 majority in a Leave voting area. It's almost as if there is something in having a consistent and clear stance on Brexit.

(I am aware there were other issues at play such as the reason for the by election in the 1st place and other parties not putting up candidates to avoid splitting the remain vote).
But the Labour party will still not learn from that. They will still blame the right wingers within the party and the nasty Tory press. Anything but actually looking at the facts that they have a poor leader who no one trusts and a confused policy on Brexit amongst other things. See posts above for evidence

[Ozyhibby]

Bit daft comment, even for a well known daftie.

Get yer Kleenex oot. The most right wing reactionary government has a majority of uno now. SPLENDID.


BIG G

LOL, I might be a dafty but that Labour vote is heading right where I said it would, down to the levels of the SWP.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190802/f28535753507296f2470b9474cc4eee6.jpg
Although they lost the seat, last night was decent for the Tories. To win the seat the Lib Dem’s needed Plaid and the greens to stand down which won’t be repeated at a general election.
Johnson and his advisors will be looking at that and thinking, with Labour vote collapsing, that they have a chance in a GE.


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