The future of the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

Labour with leisure, snp with the arts and social housing. It's just different shades of austerity. Scotlands budget is up 20% in real terms in 12 years too

Health spending has gone up by more than that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Health spending has gone up by more than that.


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That does account for over a quarter of the increase

[Jack]

Scotlands budget is up 20% in real terms in 12 years too

Not according to The Fraser of Allander Institute. Excluding covid consequentials its barely risen in real terms and including them isn't 20% up (20/21).

I mean. Who ever heard of the torys increasing public spending budgets, never mind to the drunken, rat infested northern British benefit scroungers?

[Stairway 2 7]

Not according to The Fraser of Allander Institute. Excluding covid consequentials its barely risen in real terms and including them isn't 20% up (20/21).

I mean. Who ever heard of the torys increasing public spending budgets, never mind to the drunken, rat infested northern British benefit scroungers?

The rise happened post 20/21 its 19% up, £59 billion. Read it in an article talking about environmental cuts

https://archive.ph/K5nHm

Sepa is not the only Scots environmental body to see a reduction in its spending power since 2010, the year that public sector austerity was introduced in the UK by the Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition at Westminster.
The wildlife agency, NatureScot, saw its funding reduced from £69m in 2010-11 to £61.1m in 2023-24. In real terms, that’s a reduction of 40 per cent.

Meanwhile, funding for independent environmental research by other bodies like the James Hutton Institute, the Moredun Research Institute, and Scotland’s Rural College has collectively reduced by 55 per cent in real terms over the past 13 years.

Overall, spending on Sepa, NatureScot and programmes of research make up just 0.27 per cent of Scotland’s 2023-24 budget. That compares with 0.55 per cent in 2010-11.

That decreased proportion is partly a result of the budget cuts, but also reflects the fact the Scottish Government budget has actually increased in real-terms since 2010-11 at the same time that funding for environmental services have fallen.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/retired-scots-solicitor-posted-false-rumours-about-snp-mp-police-probe-online/ar-AA1hIz7R?ocid=socialshare&cvid=353054dc00724ea99306b82425535735&ei=45

Anything goes it seems.


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[marinello59]

I don’t think anybody saw a 20% swing to Labour coming in the Rutherglen by-election. Turnout was low but that was still a stunning victory. Labour needs a strong backing in Scotland to win the General Election, it looks like they may well get it. Interesting times ahead.

[Scorrie]

I don’t think anybody saw a 20% swing to Labour coming in the Rutherglen by-election. Turnout was low but that was still a stunning victory. Labour needs a strong backing in Scotland to win the General Election, it looks like they may well get it. Interesting times ahead.

Yep. I wonder if we have seen the high tide for the SNP now for a few years. Independence probably dead in the water for now?

[grunt]

Independence probably dead in the water for now?

You're absolutely right! The loss once again of this traditionally Labour seat means the end of the SNP and the independence movement as a whole in Scotland. We can all look forward to a successful progressive Scotland governed by brain dead simpletons like Anas Sarwar and Jackie Baillie.

Shoot me now.

[Ozyhibby]

You're absolutely right! The loss once again of this traditionally Labour seat means the end of the SNP and the independence movement as a whole in Scotland. We can all look forward to a successful progressive Scotland governed by brain dead simpletons like Anas Sarwar and Jackie Baillie.

Shoot me now.

It’s a terrible loss for Yousaf. The SNP vote has stayed at home and he needs to reflect on that sharpish. If he doesn’t change course then he is toast. The closeness of the leadership election should have shown him that but he has ignored it. He doesn’t have much time now to start listening.


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[grunt]

It’s a terrible loss for Yousaf. The SNP vote has stayed at home and he needs to reflect on that sharpish. If he doesn’t change course then he is toast. The closeness of the leadership election should have shown him that but he has ignored it. He doesn’t have much time now to start listening.


What do you mean, "change course"?

[greenginger]

I don’t think anybody saw a 20% swing to Labour coming in the Rutherglen by-election. Turnout was low but that was still a stunning victory. Labour needs a strong backing in Scotland to win the General Election, it looks like they may well get it. Interesting times ahead.


I don’t get this swing to Labour talk.

Even Labour got fewer votes than they got at last election so is there any evidence that any SNP or Tory voters actually switched parties.

More likely they just stayed home , whilst the Labour vote turned out.

[Jack]

If it was me I would be a SNP non voter as I'd be raging at what Ferrier had done. As a Labour voter I'd be there as soon as the doors opened to cast my vote.

I thought Labour would win by more.

[lapsedhibee]

If it was me I would be a SNP non voter as I'd be raging at what Ferrier had done.

Conversely, there is a suggestion that because Ferrier had been a popular local MP, SNP voters did not turn out as a way of punishing the SNP for not standing by her. Who knows, but some coverage of the result - predictions that SNP will have fewer Scottish seats than Tories at next GE - is insane.

[Ozyhibby]

What do you mean, "change course"?

I think they need to start focussing on business needs more and move away from the greens.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Yep. I wonder if we have seen the high tide for the SNP now for a few years. Independence probably dead in the water for now?

The thirst for independence is as strong as ever, it's just the SNP who have lost popularity. A few years of a Labour government who will ignore the independence question will see a resurgence in support for the SNP as the only viable vessel for independence.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can't paint Labour getting almost 60% of the vote as anything other than a big swing, even with the mitigating circumstances.

I'm sure SNP won't be complacent about it if they do they are sleeping walking into a big swing at the GE

[Ozyhibby]

The thirst for independence is as strong as ever, it's just the SNP who have lost popularity. A few years of a Labour government who will ignore the independence question will see a resurgence in support for the SNP as the only viable vessel for independence.

I think that would be complacent. We can’t just assume it will all come good in time for a GE without looking at what is going wrong.
I think the first party to offer a more enhanced devolution package could win big. What we can’t do is carry on as if all is good.


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[Ozyhibby]

Can't paint Labour getting almost 60% of the vote as anything other than a big swing, even with the mitigating circumstances.

I'm sure SNP won't be complacent about it if they do they are sleeping walking into a big swing at the GE

Totally agree. If they ignore this then disaster awaits.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Totally agree. If they ignore this then disaster awaits.


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Can't see anything other than quite a few lost seats and Humzas departure, he's very divisive. Many are saying it'll be Forbes but I think that's madness when imo Flynn is moving head and shoulders above most politicians. Greens are hugely unpopular so I'm hoping a new leader could win a majority

A bit of a regroup and the demographics will see independence come eventually.

[Northernhibee]

Yep. I wonder if we have seen the high tide for the SNP now for a few years. Independence probably dead in the water for now?

For a while, and if anything having to go back to the drawing board, regroup, and come back with new arguments, a new energy, and likely new faces fronting it will be the best thing overall.

Despite Brexit and the most corrupt Tory government in living memory, it’s still too close to call a second referendum. To call a second referendum the yes campaign will need to be absolutely sure that they’re going to win as a second defeat would see the argument dead in the water.

All sorts of excuses can be made for last nights result, but parking it, rethinking, and coming back stronger gives the best chance for winning a second referendum.

[grunt]

Can't see anything other than quite a few lost seats and Humzas departure, he's very divisive.
Is he? What evidence is there for this?

[lapsedhibee]

Technical question.

BBC2 Newsnight presenter last night pronounced the outgoing MP's surname as "Ferr-ee-yay" as if she was maybe French, which I don't think she is. Does she pronounce her name like that, and if not do they refer to wee dugs as terr-e-yays in the Woke Metropolitan Elite Bubble? :dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not sure the result in itself tells us much abut how a general election next year will go.

The SNP performed well at Holyrood in 2007 and then won more emphatically in 2011. In between that in 2010 the Labour vote held up well in a general election. It was the events of 2014 that saw the near fatal blow inflicted on Labour in Scotland. It's also not uncommon for an incumbent party to take a bit of a beating in a by election (I know the SNP weren't really the incumbent but you get what I mean).

I'm not all that bothered if we are now seeing a situation whereby people who still support independence don't just vote SNP as a default though. People will argue they are the only route to independence but that is largely because the support base for yes has made that so. 2014 was an opportunity to diversify the vessels to independence, the yes electorate chose to put almost all of their eggs in one basket and the SNP actively encouraged it with the 'both votes SNP' rhetoric that was counterproductive on a number of levels. I know many people who support independence who like me are disillusioned with a tired SNP government in Scotland. The discipline and focus that typified their early years of govt has slowly eroded, divisions have been exposed and the changes in leadership at both Holyrood and Westminster exposed both in fighting and cynical careerism. Not unusual in politics of course but it was pretty well hidden when the whips ruled with an iron fist.

It's really up to the SNP and their supporters to make this a blip rather than a seismic shift. They can make the same mistakes Labour did and get complacent, take voters for granted and assume they will just fall into line next year or they can learn from this and listen to their core and wider support base. We are arguably entering a period in which the SNP are being held to account by their own core vote for the 1st time in a long time, how they react will be crucial to where they, and the wider independence movement, find themselves in the coming months and years.

[Ozyhibby]

Can't see anything other than quite a few lost seats and Humzas departure, he's very divisive. Many are saying it'll be Forbes but I think that's madness when imo Flynn is moving head and shoulders above most politicians. Greens are hugely unpopular so I'm hoping a new leader could win a majority

A bit of a regroup and the demographics will see independence come eventually.

I don’t find him divisive, just a bit flat and lacking in direction.
I agree Flynn is head and shoulder above any other candidate now. It’s all about how it happens now? Do they wait until after the GE and lose all those seats or move more quickly?
You would think they might wait but then Ian Blackford probably thought that if Flynn as well and it cost him.
This result is probably about as bad as it could be for Yousaf.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Is he? What evidence is there for this?

He is following the same divisive policies that have shown snp support to be decimated, membership numbers too. The main SNP tact just now is going with the greens in many culture war issues that are unpopular. Spending a huge amount of time and money taking GRC to court when the country is split on it. Sticking with the unpopular greens. His approval rating is appalling and unsustainable for a leader. Forbes was a crackpot imo opinion but she would have won more of the middle ground. Humza seems to be focusing to me on support that is already strongly won and challenging the middle that will win independence.

The party members wanted continuity on a party that was sinking so they can't be surprised it's still sliding. Unfortunately it's taking the independence polling down with it

[grunt]

He is following the same divisive policies that have shown snp support to be decimated, membership numbers too. The main SNP tact just now is going with the greens in many culture war issues that are unpopular. Spending a huge amount of time and money taking GRC to court when the country is split on it. Sticking with the unpopular greens. His approval rating is appalling and unsustainable for a leader. Forbes was a crackpot imo opinion but she would have won more of the middle ground. Humza seems to be focusing to me on support that is already strongly won and challenging the middle that will win independence.
You seem to be living in a different universe to me.

[Stairway 2 7]

You seem to be living in a different universe to me.

Your universe show Humza with a positive approval rating, SNP membership numbers being solid, SNP voting intention not falling dramatically, independence figures not consistently showing a no lead in every poll?

All will be fine I'm sure, unless people come back to earth and realise this path the SNP is on isn't winning voters and is leading to many years of the union.

[GlesgaeHibby]

For a while, and if anything having to go back to the drawing board, regroup, and come back with new arguments, a new energy, and likely new faces fronting it will be the best thing overall.

Despite Brexit and the most corrupt Tory government in living memory, it’s still too close to call a second referendum. To call a second referendum the yes campaign will need to be absolutely sure that they’re going to win as a second defeat would see the argument dead in the water.

All sorts of excuses can be made for last nights result, but parking it, rethinking, and coming back stronger gives the best chance for winning a second referendum.

I disagree that we couldn't have won a referendum clearly during the Brexit negotiation years. Sturgeon was too focussed on stopping Brexit for the whole of the UK, rather than Scotland's escape plan. Making a clear case for an independent Scotland in the EU during Bojo/May era would have seen us over the line imo.

To grow support for independence, the SNP need to focus on governing competently first and foremost. Step one there would be to get rid of the toxic Greens. Humza also has to go - the SNP membership were warned he was kryptonite to voters. They need to be able to demonstrate they can do things well, but at the moment are bogged down various issues including nonsensical legal challenges, spending a fortune on ferries that might never sail, rent controls that haven't worked, pissing taxpayers money away on DRS (a political choice, as Slater would have been advised by Scottish Government lawyers that an exemption to Internal Market Act was needed).

Sturgeon started the SNP trend of excusing poor performance in various areas, notably the NHS - excusing failure by pointing to the fact things were better in Scotland than the rest of the UK. The UK has been run by an incompetent bunch of crooks for years now, so it shouldn't have been difficult to do better. We need to move from accepting mediocrity, to demanding high standards and doing things much better.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it OK to congratulate the Labour Party in Scotland on doubling their representation at Westminster?

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that would be complacent. We can’t just assume it will all come good in time for a GE without looking at what is going wrong.
I think the first party to offer a more enhanced devolution package could win big. What we can’t do is carry on as if all is good.


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The next general election is lost already for the SNP. People will vote for the guaranteed option of getting rid of this Tory government, voting for the SNP won't guarantee that, voting Labour definitely will.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is it OK to congratulate the Labour Party in Scotland on doubling their representation at Westminster?

Best save it until after the election. The first yougov poll post the tories conference has them retaining their 20 point lead, traditionally you get a bounce after your conference.

[marinello59]

Yep. I wonder if we have seen the high tide for the SNP now for a few years. Independence probably dead in the water for now?

It's not dead in the water but it's much further away than it has been for years. (That's probably something to be discussed on the Indy thread.) What I think we are seeing is the end of voters sticking with the SNP just because of Independence. Polls show that for a lot of Indy supporters it simply isn't their main priority. That can only be good for Labour. Talk of 40 plus seats at the General election is way off the mark though 20 plus may be possible. It's going to be fun to watch.

[Stairway 2 7]

The next general election is lost already for the SNP. People will vote for the guaranteed option of getting rid of this Tory government, voting for the SNP won't guarantee that, voting Labour definitely will.

That's not the reason for the SNP drop the membership numbers, SNP voting intention and independence have all dropped consistently in the last 12 months. The last two general elections were seen as close going in, but the SNP numbers were huge. There has been a massive drop in SNP support and they can ignore it at their peril

[Moulin Yarns]

Best save it until after the election. The first yougov poll post the tories conference has them retaining their 20 point lead, traditionally you get a bounce after your conference.

Are you saying that the Labour Party in Scotland have not just doubled the number of mps??

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you saying that the Labour Party in Scotland have not just doubled the number of mps??

Eh how do you even nearly come to me saying that

[Moulin Yarns]

Eh how do you even nearly come to me saying that

I'm hoping that you have just misread my post, but if not here are a couple of questions.

How many mps do Labour have in Scotland? How many did they have on Wednesday?

[Stairway 2 7]

How many mps do Labour have in Scotland? How many did they have on Wednesday?

Your literally having an argument with yourself. Labour pretty obviously doubled what they have, who said they didn't

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.institute.global/insights/politics-and-governance/more-united-than-divided-how-voters-see-scotlands-future

I'm still reading this, but yes 45 no 41 and SNP still the largest party from Scotland at Westminster.

[J-C]

I think we all expected Labour to win, the worry for the SNP was the size of the swing in votes, if theat trend is copied in the next election, it could be a complete embarrassment for the party. I'm an SNP voter but have been very disappointed with them this past year or two, need to get their fingers out.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.institute.global/insights/politics-and-governance/more-united-than-divided-how-voters-see-scotlands-future

I'm still reading this, but yes 45 no 41 and SNP still the largest party from Scotland at Westminster.

Quite a bit different from all the other polls. All the rest have Labour and snp bouncing ahead of each other by a couple of points. Your better with a poll of polls which have snp ahead and no leading. A poll from this week tories vote baffling but one poll so probably a one off

@electpoliticsuk
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 34% (-1)
LAB: 32% (-3)
CON: 21% (+6)
LDM: 9% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-2)
REF: 1% (-1)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 4-5 October,
Changes w/ 2-4 September

[lapsedhibee]

CON: 21% (+6)


Must have been the Mordaunt speech (https://twitter.com/quantick/status/1709897938569191640) that roused them.

[Jack]

There's no way Labour could replicate that result in a GE. I'm chatting with an in the know former Labour GE candidate who tells me they threw everything including the kitchen sink at winning the seat. It would have been a disaster if they hadn't won it comfortably.

In other news the disaster was that the torys lost their deposit. Something, I'm told, that should never happen to a main party.

[Moulin Yarns]

Quite a bit different from all the other polls. All the rest have Labour and snp bouncing ahead of each other by a couple of points. Your better with a poll of polls which have snp ahead and no leading. A poll from this week tories vote baffling but one poll so probably a one off

@electpoliticsuk
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 34% (-1)
LAB: 32% (-3)
CON: 21% (+6)
LDM: 9% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-2)
REF: 1% (-1)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 4-5 October,
Changes w/ 2-4 September

The one I posted is for the Tony Blair think tank and includes analysis of the Rutherglen by election. But yeah I don't believe all the polling.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's not the reason for the SNP drop the membership numbers, SNP voting intention and independence have all dropped consistently in the last 12 months. The last two general elections were seen as close going in, but the SNP numbers were huge. There has been a massive drop in SNP support and they can ignore it at their peril

Until there is another realistic alternative to the SNP as a vessel to gain independence, then the SNP will still be a major player in Scottish politics. The next General Election will be a landslide for Labour because people are terrified of the Tories, but Labour will have a very short shelf live if they don't grant further devolution and they won't.

[marinello59]

There's no way Labour could replicate that result in a GE. I'm chatting with an in the know former Labour GE candidate who tells me they threw everything including the kitchen sink at winning the seat. It would have been a disaster if they hadn't won it comfortably.

In other news the disaster was that the torys lost their deposit. Something, I'm told, that should never happen to a main party.

The Greens are in Government and lost their deposit as well. Becoming a branch of the SNP rather than a Green Party worthy of the name is going to cost them dearly.

[Stairway 2 7]

Until there is another realistic alternative to the SNP as a vessel to gain independence, then the SNP will still be a major player in Scottish politics. The next General Election will be a landslide for Labour because people are terrified of the Tories, but Labour will have a very short shelf live if they don't grant further devolution and they won't.

The problem is there is nothing but the SNP and many think the SNPs are too focused on subjects that aren't independence. I vote them every time due to independence and will continue but I feel they are on an obvious downward path, that was predicted by many

SNP might do better being in opposition and the underdogs as just now they are the establishment and the horrible past decade is hard to just constantly blame on England

[Stairway 2 7]

There's no way Labour could replicate that result in a GE. I'm chatting with an in the know former Labour GE candidate who tells me they threw everything including the kitchen sink at winning the seat. It would have been a disaster if they hadn't won it comfortably.

In other news the disaster was that the torys lost their deposit. Something, I'm told, that should never happen to a main party.

Both parties chucked everything like all byelections, Humza was at the front constantly flynn and black campaigning also. Its weird Humza said a 34% turn out win in Airdrie for SNP Anum Qaisar was a "stunning victory" but 37% in Rutherglen doesn't tell you anything.

Stephen Flynn said it would be unwise to downplay the result, some say he's stating the obvious others today say he's maneuvering

As has been said also, greens got less than 2% but pull many strings

[Stairway 2 7]

Could have been in here or housing thread

Labour's big conference push apparently is going to be housing.

https://archive.ph/QFLce

"Massively relax planning rules - tax developers and use all money for council homes

Build new towns near railways"

[JimBHibees]

Could have been in here or housing thread

Labour's big conference push apparently is going to be housing.

https://archive.ph/QFLce

"Massively relax planning rules - tax developers and use all money for council homes

Build new towns near railways"

Pity they didn’t do that when in power

[RyeSloan]

Could have been in here or housing thread

Labour's big conference push apparently is going to be housing.

https://archive.ph/QFLce

"Massively relax planning rules - tax developers and use all money for council homes

Build new towns near railways"

Seems to be Labours new favourite thing these pretend hypothicated taxes.

They were saying the same thing recently about VAT on schools fees being used to fund extra billions on state schools.

Now we have another tax on house builders being used to build houses.

In reality it’s highly unlikely these taxes will be hypothecated at all and suggesting they will be is most likely a bit of a big fat lie.

[marinello59]

Pity they didn’t do that when in power

Well the Tories and SNP have been in power for an over a decade now and they aren’t doing it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Pity they didn’t do that when in power

Agreed, nothing to do with this party though

[Stairway 2 7]

Seems to be Labours new favourite thing these pretend hypothicated taxes.

They were saying the same thing recently about VAT on schools fees being used to fund extra billions on state schools.

Now we have another tax on house builders being used to build houses.

In reality it’s highly unlikely these taxes will be hypothecated at all and suggesting they will be is most likely a bit of a big fat lie.
I think the difference is this is rumoured to be in the conference, rather than rumours.

[Jack]

They'll change their mind next week.

The week after they'll announce gaps in duel carriageways and motorways to allow for even more U-turns!

[Stairway 2 7]

They'll change their mind next week.

The week after they'll announce gaps in duel carriageways and motorways to allow for even more U-turns!

Sounds like the A9

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to be Labours new favourite thing these pretend hypothicated taxes.

They were saying the same thing recently about VAT on schools fees being used to fund extra billions on state schools.

Now we have another tax on house builders being used to build houses.

In reality it’s highly unlikely these taxes will be hypothecated at all and suggesting they will be is most likely a bit of a big fat lie.

If they want to build houses, why would you tax builders? Surely you should tax undeveloped land?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Can't help thinking that the by-election result is, as has been mentioned, largely due to SNP voters staying at home. IMO,
that's for 1 of 2 reasons:-

1. apathy and assumption that their man would win easily.

2. anger at their own party (for whatever reason), but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Labour.

The firsr point can be dealt with by the SNP, but the second point will be Labour's biggest challenge next year.

[Ozyhibby]

Could have been in here or housing thread

Labour's big conference push apparently is going to be housing.

https://archive.ph/QFLce

"Massively relax planning rules - tax developers and use all money for council homes

Build new towns near railways"

Planning reform is a great idea and a cost neutral way of bringing about economic growth while helping our housing problem.
It’s just one area that the SNP could have acted on already but have a blind spot for the economy.


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[Ozyhibby]

Can't help thinking that the by-election result is, as has been mentioned, laregely due to SNP voters staying at home. INO, that's for 1 of 2 reasons:-

1. apathy and assumption that their man would win easily.

2. anger at their own party (for whatever reason), but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Labour.

The firsr point can be dealt with by the SNP, but the second point will be Labour's biggest challenge next year.

I agree. While the result is a stinking victory for Labour I’m sure they are aware of some of the factors which could change.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Planning reform is a great idea and a cost neutral way of bringing about economic growth while helping our housing problem.
It’s just one area that the SNP could have acted on already but have a blind spot for the economy.


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Planning was reformed in 2019, then we had a pandemic which slowed the planning process to a snails pace.



https://www.transformingplanning.scot/planning-reform/how-we-got-here/

[Ozyhibby]

Planning was reformed in 2019, then we had a pandemic which slowed the planning process to a snails pace.



https://www.transformingplanning.scot/planning-reform/how-we-got-here/

It’s not been reformed enough.


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[RyeSloan]

If they want to build houses, why would you tax builders? Surely you should tax undeveloped land?


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Oh I’m sure there is a hundred ways to encourage more development and of the type someone somewhere decides is needed.

The proposal being put forward may or may not do that..words are just words and there has been many of them wasted on not changing the housing dynamic.

My gripe was mainly about politicians justifying more taxation for specific causes. Pretendy hypothecation is a conjuring trick. True hypothecation rarely works either but at least you can sometimes see at least some cause and effect.

But to suggest these taxes will be ring fenced and used specifically for a sole, measurable purpose is, let’s be honest, almost certainly bollocks.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh I’m sure there is a hundred ways to encourage more development and of the type someone somewhere decides is needed.

The proposal being put forward may or may not do that..words are just words and there has been many of them wasted on not changing the housing dynamic.

My gripe was mainly about politicians justifying more taxation for specific causes. Pretendy hypothecation is a conjuring trick. True hypothecation rarely works either but at least you can sometimes see at least some cause and effect.

But to suggest these taxes will be ring fenced and used specifically for a sole, measurable purpose is, let’s be honest, almost certainly bollocks.

Apologies, I wasn’t questioning that part.


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[Hibs4185]

Can't help thinking that the by-election result is, as has been mentioned, largely due to SNP voters staying at home. IMO,
that's for 1 of 2 reasons:-

1. apathy and assumption that their man would win easily.

2. anger at their own party (for whatever reason), but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Labour.

The firsr point can be dealt with by the SNP, but the second point will be Labour's biggest challenge next year.


I’ve voted SNP in every election since I was able to vote. I’m a passionate independence supporter but I can’t stand the direction the party is taking and I don’t know if I can’t vote them.

I dont want to vote Labour, def not Tories and I hate not voting.

Wouldn’t vote alba in a million years either.

Can’t believe the mess the SNP have created

[Hibs4185]

Planning was reformed in 2019, then we had a pandemic which slowed the planning process to a snails pace.



https://www.transformingplanning.scot/planning-reform/how-we-got-here/

Just wait until every planning department has to process thousands of short term let planning applications.

Shambles

[Moulin Yarns]

Just wait until every planning department has to process thousands of short term let planning applications.

Shambles

Seeing how it became a requirement on 1st October they will have been working on them for months already.

[grunt]

I quite like Labour's tagline from their conference, "Let's Get Britain's Future Back".

[Stairway 2 7]

Not much news pre conference but Labour commits to building 1.5 million homes in the first 5 years
https://archive.ph/pFd8W

They are going to use £1.5 billion of the £5 billion they will get from ending non dom status, on paying doctors overtime to cut waiting lists
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-unveils-bold-vision-31131845

Most importantly is they have confirmed even if the Rwanda plan wins in court Labour will abolish it

[Pretty Boy]

Not much news pre conference but Labour commits to building 1.5 million homes in the first 5 years
https://archive.ph/pFd8W

They are going to use £1.5 billion of the £5 billion they will get from ending non dom status, on paying doctors overtime to cut waiting lists
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-unveils-bold-vision-31131845

Most importantly is they have confirmed even if the Rwanda plan wins in court Labour will abolish it

Stuff like that is appealing whilst still seeming achievable. It's nothing massively radical but it's a clear difference from the Tories. There are difficulties to be overcome there but not insurmountable ones.

Of course it remains to be seen how many Labour 'promises' actually make it to manifesto. If these are being announced at conference then you have to think there is a high chance they will be.

[Hibrandenburg]

I quite like Labour's tagline from their conference, "Let's Get Britain's Future Back".

2 words too many for the British public to take on board.

[jacomo]

I’ve voted SNP in every election since I was able to vote. I’m a passionate independence supporter but I can’t stand the direction the party is taking and I don’t know if I can’t vote them.

I dont want to vote Labour, def not Tories and I hate not voting.

Wouldn’t vote alba in a million years either.

Can’t believe the mess the SNP have created


My observation is that the SNP have held power for too long and complacency, incompetence and corruption have set in, as often happens.

This is the Tory government too, but on a much bigger scale (and much, much more corrupt).

With independence off the table for now, a Labour vote can get the Tories out and maybe bring more scrutiny to the SNP. But Labour can’t take Scotland for granted ever again.

Alternatively, vote green.

[grunt]

My observation is that the SNP have held power for too long and complacency, incompetence and corruption have set in, as often happens.

This is the Tory government too, but on a much bigger scale (and much, much more corrupt).

With independence off the table for now, a Labour vote can get the Tories out and maybe bring more scrutiny to the SNP. But Labour can’t take Scotland for granted ever again.

Alternatively, vote green.
Labour is taking Scotland for granted now. We don't feature in their plans, other than as a source of energy.

[grunt]

Well here's a Labour policy I can support. I want to see many of these lying corrupt Tory MPs and their facilitators in prison.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67048289


Labour's Rachel Reeves to set out plan to recover Covid fraud billions

[Stairway 2 7]

Well here's a Labour policy I can support. I want to see many of these lying corrupt Tory MPs and their facilitators in prison.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67048289

Would be brilliant, but I'm dubious it'll happen

[Jack]

My observation is that the SNP have held power for too long and complacency, incompetence and corruption have set in, as often happens.

This is the Tory government too, but on a much bigger scale (and much, much more corrupt).

With independence off the table for now, a Labour vote can get the Tories out and maybe bring more scrutiny to the SNP. But Labour can’t take Scotland for granted ever again.

Alternatively, vote green.

Where has there been corruption in the SNP?

[Moulin Yarns]

Where has there been corruption in the SNP?

I suppose the police are still looking for it, it wasn't in the campervan.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose the police are still looking for it, it wasn't in the campervan.

They’ll drag it out longer than the Chilcot inquiry.


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[degenerated]

They’ll drag it out longer than the Chilcot inquiry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk8th may 2026 would be my bet

[marinello59]

Would be brilliant, but I'm dubious it'll happen

What we are seeing at conference is their manifesto starting to take shape. They’ve kept their powder dry long enough , they know it’s time for them to start telling voters just what they would do differently.

[Hiber-nation]

Impressive speech by Rachel Reeves. I don't believe half of it but I'm still seriously considering jumping back on the Labour bandwagon to be part of bringing down the Tories.

[Northernhibee]

What we are seeing at conference is their manifesto starting to take shape. They’ve kept their powder dry long enough , they know it’s time for them to start telling voters just what they would do differently.

The anti-corruption ticket will be strong I reckon, in particular COVID fraud money.

The Tories are utterly desperate to get into another culture war over Brexit, immigration, class warfare, or whatever.

There's absolutely no way that they could stand on a "We'll let the COVID fraud money vanish and not clean our act up" manifesto. There's nothing there for the Tories or the right wing media to get their claws into without sounding ridiculous.

[Keith_M]

New Labour Membership card

27281

[Stairway 2 7]

New Labour Membership card

27281

The Scottish cards have a saltire and Welsh st David's, not sure why England don't have St George but they probably prefer union

[marinello59]

The Scottish cards have a saltire and Welsh st David's, not sure why England don't have St George but they probably prefer union

Probably. No problem with that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Some more policies coming out

Labour to give more devolution to towns and cities
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/09/keir-starmer-to-promise-new-powers-for-all-of-englands-towns-and-cities?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Labour looking to set up more independent bodies like OBR, to police it policies
https://archive.ph/RGsgW

Also Rachel Reeves says she will ban politicians using private flights when commercial ones are available

[Ozyhibby]

Some more policies coming out

Labour to give more devolution to towns and cities
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/09/keir-starmer-to-promise-new-powers-for-all-of-englands-towns-and-cities?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Labour looking to set up more independent bodies like OBR, to police it policies
https://archive.ph/RGsgW

Also Rachel Reeves says she will ban politicians using private flights when commercial ones are available

More devolution is crucial if they are to do well in Scotland. That’s the only way they win over soft SNP voters.
And the devolution has to be real devolution, in England as well. Not grant maintained from the centre. The taxes need to be local as well.


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[Scorrie]

2 words too many for the British public to take on board.

Back to the Future would work!

[greenginger]

Back to the Future would work!

or how about,

Make Britain Great Again !

or has someone used something like that already :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

Tbf to Starmer he dealt with the protester like a champ.

The jacket off, sleeves rolled up move was a solid 9/10. A casual brushing glitter off the shoulder would have elevated it to a 10.

[Hibbyradge]

or how about,

Make Britain Great Again !

or has someone used something like that already :greengrin

Liz Truss.

[Northernhibee]

Tbf to Starmer he dealt with the protester like a champ.

The jacket off, sleeves rolled up move was a solid 9/10. A casual brushing glitter off the shoulder would have elevated it to a 10.

He’s a very good politician. He’s not only up against a party desperate to start a culture war on as many fronts as possible, a media desperate to do the same and turn anything they can into a story (see Currygate), and the previous guard in the party throwing a strop as he tries to make a party who four years ago were utterly unelectable one that can get into power. He’s succeeded on all fronts so far.

You may not like him or his policies, but he’s good at his job.

[Col2]

Tbf to Starmer he dealt with the protester like a champ.

The jacket off, sleeves rolled up move was a solid 9/10. A casual brushing glitter off the shoulder would have elevated it to a 10.

I thought his speech today was very good. I like the balance of public and private investment as we will need it. They now have the look of a party ready for govertment. I like Rachel Reeves and Wes Streating. I think they are providing hope and this is so needed and powerful.

The tories are sniping away on divisive politics. They have nothing left.

[neil7908]

He’s a very good politician. He’s not only up against a party desperate to start a culture war on as many fronts as possible, a media desperate to do the same and turn anything they can into a story (see Currygate), and the previous guard in the party throwing a strop as he tries to make a party who four years ago were utterly unelectable one that can get into power. He’s succeeded on all fronts so far.

You may not like him or his policies, but he’s good at his job.

I agree with a lot of what your saying.

But I'd add that for me, we can't really say he's good at his job or a good politician until he's PM and then whether or not he's helping the working and middle class rather than the wealthy.

A politicians job (especially a Labour one) must surely be to improve the lot of the people they represent? Maybe he's doing that as an MP but a Leader of the Opposition the criteria for success changes.

So he's half way there but Boris also made his party electable. And we know how that turned out...

[Pretty Boy]

I thought his speech today was very good. I like the balance of public and private investment as we will need it. They now have the look of a party ready for govertment. I like Rachel Reeves and Wes Streating. I think they are providing hope and this is so needed and powerful.

The tories are sniping away on divisive politics. They have nothing left.

Aye I liked a lot of it too. Far from perfect but perfect being the enemy of good and all that. He's not where I want Labour to be but he's electable and he's far preferable to 5 more years of the Tories.

As I said a page or so ago there have been a lot of promising noises come from Labour under Starmer only for them be quitely dropped or for very public u turns to be performed so I'm remaining cynical. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that was his last big pitch to the party before a general election though so I'm more hopeful some of what we heard will stick.

[Northernhibee]

I agree with a lot of what your saying.

But I'd add that for me, we can't really say he's good at his job or a good politician until he's PM and then whether or not he's helping the working and middle class rather than the wealthy.

A politicians job (especially a Labour one) must surely be to improve the lot of the people they represent? Maybe he's doing that as an MP but a Leader of the Opposition the criteria for success changes.

So he's half way there but Boris also made his party electable. And we know how that turned out...

You can’t improve the lives of the country when you aren’t in power. In FPTP that’s the long and short of it. Boris had a far easier job with the media on his side not looking to turn absolutely everything into a personal, prolonged attack. Starmer doesn’t have that luxury.

It’s something that if the left of the Labour Party were to understand, they’d have been able to make positive change before now.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/09/peter-mandelson-calls-for-labour-caution-in-improving-workers-rights

This guy really needs to be binned already. I desperately hope no one senior in the party is listening to him.

[Col2]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/09/peter-mandelson-calls-for-labour-caution-in-improving-workers-rights

This guy really needs to be binned already. I desperately hope no one senior in the party is listening to him.

Not sure I agree. The issue labour has had in the past is if you move to a fully unionized driven set of worker rights, we will see less investment coming into this country. It’s all about balance. The tories would rip up all employees right of it suited a donor.

[superfurryhibby]

Not sure I agree. The issue labour has had in the past is if you move to a fully unionized driven set of worker rights, we will see less investment coming into this country. It’s all about balance. The tories would rip up all employees right of it suited a donor.

Maybe jobs that depend on workers not having rights are jobs not worth having in the first place?

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe jobs that depend on workers not having rights are jobs not worth having in the first place?

Cut corporation tax and raise wages.
Companies bring high value jobs here due to the low tax and we don’t have to pay in work benefits. Everyone is a winner. Income tax receipts also rise


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[Ozyhibby]

Have to say that on housing, Starmer is saying all the right things for me just now.
Not quite sure how it fits in with his promise to devolve power but more houses need built.


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[greenlex]

Have to say that on housing, Starmer is saying all the right things for me just now.
Not quite sure how it fits in with his promise to devolve power but more houses need built.


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Saying the right things and delivering are usually two totally differing things when it comes to being a politician or a political party. There’s usually an excuse why they can’t or why they have to break manifesto commitments. Again usually on the back of big business lobbying.

[marinello59]

Saying the right things and delivering are usually two totally differing things when it comes to being a politician or a political party. There’s usually an excuse why they can’t or why they have to break manifesto commitments. Again usually on the back of big business lobbying.

Or incompetence. The Governments on both sides of the border have demonstrated that. Starmer is boring as hell but is selling himself as a safe pair of hands. After the political fireworks of the past decade boring and safe is exactly what the country needs.

[Keith_M]

New Labour Membership card

27281


Everything perfectly normal, move along, nothing to see here.....



27298 27299 27300

27301

[superfurryhibby]

Cut corporation tax and raise wages.
Companies bring high value jobs here due to the low tax and we don’t have to pay in work benefits. Everyone is a winner. Income tax receipts also rise


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, not everything of value is measured purely by money and much of what you just said is like something straight out of the Tory soundbite handbook. Corporation tax cuts, nah. Raise wages , yes.

What high value jobs, what in work benefits?

[Hibs4185]

Mark Carney endorsing Rachel reeves is a big thing.


That and moving closer to Europe is two big things to getting elected

[Stairway 2 7]

Everything perfectly normal, move along, nothing to see here.....



27298 27299 27300

27301

My nationalism good, your nationalism bad. I'd ban all parties from being associated with flags.

27304
27305
27306

[neil7908]

Have to say that on housing, Starmer is saying all the right things for me just now.
Not quite sure how it fits in with his promise to devolve power but more houses need built.


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I agree but looking at the little he's said is far, I'll be shocked if they hit the target.

He mentions "a six-month consultation inviting bids from councils." That doesn't sound to me like a process that will deliver rapid outcomes and get shovels in the ground quickly.

[neil7908]

Cut corporation tax and raise wages.
Companies bring high value jobs here due to the low tax and we don’t have to pay in work benefits. Everyone is a winner. Income tax receipts also rise


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry but given how much profiteering we've seen around inflation the absolute last thing I'd be doing is giving the same companies a tax break. It'll just end up with their shareholders.

[Ozyhibby]

Sorry but given how much profiteering we've seen around inflation the absolute last thing I'd be doing is giving the same companies a tax break. It'll just end up with their shareholders.

Shareholders pay tax.[emoji106]


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[greenginger]

Shareholders pay tax.[emoji106]


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Not if their shares are in ISA’s

[DaveF]

Not if their shares are in ISA’s

Isn't it capped though? I thought it was £20k per year, although maybe you can have can have multiple isa's.

[grunt]

Seemingly Labour bans party members and MPs from attending pro-Palestine protests

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8aN5ElXYAAZrLq?format=jpg&name=large

[Pretty Boy]

Labour seem utterly determined to try and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the next election.

They are basically winning by virtue of being the least bad option. A flagrant disregard for international law and sanctioning members for attending events where there own conscience leads them is a sure fire way to lose even more of your core support.

They'll probably get over the line but it will be with a far smaller number of votes than the devil incarnate himself managed in 2017 and 2019. He scared the opposition into voting last time, this time around they will stay at home because they don't have much to fear from Starmer.

[neil7908]

Labour seem utterly determined to try and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the next election.

They are basically winning by virtue of being the least bad option. A flagrant disregard for international law and sanctioning members for attending events where there own conscience leads them is a sure fire way to lose even more of your core support.

They'll probably get over the line but it will be with a far smaller number of votes than the devil incarnate himself managed in 2017 and 2019. He scared the opposition into voting last time, this time around they will stay at home because they don't have much to fear from Starmer.

I'm not sure.

Actually, I think it's the opposite. They'll secure a thumping win because they have done all they can to appease the right wing press and be clear that when they govern, they won't go rocking the boat too much. It's been clear for a while that they don't give a toss about their base.

Yes there are policy differences between them and the Tories but it's crystal clear Labour will not undo a lot of damage the Tories have done around areas like Brexit, taxes and benefits.

They have moved to become a right of centre party, with no credible opposition on the left. Given this they will get a big chunk of traditional Tory voters, and many on the left will still hold their nose and vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. I still hear that being trotted out a lot in places like the Guardian.

In Government though we will see only limited improvements for the less well off in society. Tories have taken us 10 steps backward. Labour will take us 1 step forward and we'll be told to be grateful for it.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure.

Actually, I think it's the opposite. They'll secure a thumping win because they have done all they can to appease the right wing press and be clear that when they govern, they won't go rocking the boat too much. It's been clear for a while that they don't give a toss about their base.

Yes there are policy differences between them and the Tories but it's crystal clear Labour will not undo a lot of damage the Tories have done around areas like Brexit, taxes and benefits.

They have moved to become a right of centre party, with no credible opposition on the left. Given this they will get a big chunk of traditional Tory voters, and many on the left will still hold their nose and vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. I still hear that being trotted out a lot in places like the Guardian.

In Government though we will see only limited improvements for the less well off in society. Tories have taken us 10 steps backward. Labour will take us 1 step forward and we'll be told to be grateful for it.

The appetite for war is a worry. [emoji22]


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[marinello59]

I’d rather politicians in this country didn’t stand shoulder to shoulder with either side. When so many innocents in the Middle East are facing unimaginable suffering , pain and slaughter seeing it used to score cheap parochial political points seems crass to say the least. Truth is I don’t fully understand all the issues, all I can do is pray for those directly affected.

[Ozyhibby]

I’d rather politicians in this country didn’t stand shoulder to shoulder with either side. When so many innocents in the Middle East are facing unimaginable suffering , pain and slaughter seeing it used to score cheap parochial political points seems crass to say the least. Truth is I don’t fully understand all the issues, all I can do is pray for those directly affected.

With this issue, I have no time for those who take a side. If you can’t see suffering on both sides of this then you are not right in the head.


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[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/15/labour-to-omit-social-care-reform-from-manifesto-and-scale-back-lords-plans

Shock horror! House of Lords reform looking like it won't happen after all 😳

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/15/labour-to-omit-social-care-reform-from-manifesto-and-scale-back-lords-plans

Shock horror! House of Lords reform looking like it won't happen after all [emoji15]

Shocked.[emoji849]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67056279

The worry if Labour win in Scotland.


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[MKHIBEE]

Have to say that on housing, Starmer is saying all the right things for me just now.
Not quite sure how it fits in with his promise to devolve power but more houses need built.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Starmer said all the “right” things to get himself elected as party leader. Look what happened there. The man is a snake.

[superfurryhibby]

Starmer said all the “right” things to get himself elected as party leader. Look what happened there. The man is a snake.

Within the first few months of his tenure, Starmer upheld the decision not to prosecute the police officers who had killed Jean Charles de Menezes in a UK High Court appeal lodged by the family.[26] The family then gave up on pursuing charges and nobody has been charged with the death of de Menezes.

2011, thirteen serving and former police officers were prosecuted for perverting the course of justice in the 1988 murder of Lynette White. The prosecution were unable to provide documents which "could have helped" the defendants, that were claimed to have been destroyed by the police officer leading the case against them. The prosecution made the decision, approved by Starmer, not to offer any further evidence, and the trial collapsed.

In July 2010, Starmer announced the decision not to prosecute the police officer Simon Harwood in relation to the death of Ian Tomlinson; this led to accusations by Tomlinson's family of a police cover-up.[38] After a subsequent inquest found that Tomlinson had been unlawfully killed, Starmer announced that Harwood would be prosecuted for manslaughter. The officer was acquitted by a jury in July 2012 but dismissed from the police that September.[

In an interview with the i's Francis Elliott in December 2021, Starmer refused to characterise himself as a socialist as he seeks to move Labour to the political centre for a possible next UK general election in 2023, asking "What does that mean?" He added: "The Labour Party is a party that believes that we get the best from each other when we come together, collectively, and ensure that you know, we give people both opportunity and support as they needed."[137]

In 2022, Starmer confirmed that he was no longer honouring the ten socialism-based pledges that he had made in the 2020 party leadership contest.

[MKHIBEE]

Within the first few months of his tenure, Starmer upheld the decision not to prosecute the police officers who had killed Jean Charles de Menezes in a UK High Court appeal lodged by the family.[26] The family then gave up on pursuing charges and nobody has been charged with the death of de Menezes.

2011, thirteen serving and former police officers were prosecuted for perverting the course of justice in the 1988 murder of Lynette White. The prosecution were unable to provide documents which "could have helped" the defendants, that were claimed to have been destroyed by the police officer leading the case against them. The prosecution made the decision, approved by Starmer, not to offer any further evidence, and the trial collapsed.

In July 2010, Starmer announced the decision not to prosecute the police officer Simon Harwood in relation to the death of Ian then the general public have Tomlinson; this led to accusations by Tomlinson's family of a police cover-up.[38] After a subsequent inquest found that Tomlinson had been unlawfully killed, Starmer announced that Harwood would be prosecuted for manslaughter. The officer was acquitted by a jury in July 2012 but dismissed from the police that September.[

In an interview with the i's Francis Elliott in December 2021, Starmer refused to characterise himself as a socialist as he seeks to move Labour to the political centre for a possible next UK general election in 2023, asking "What does that mean?" He added: "The Labour Party is a party that believes that we get the best from each other when we come together, collectively, and ensure that you know, we give people both opportunity and support as they needed."[137]

In 2022, Starmer confirmed that he was no longer honouring the ten socialism-based pledges that he had made in the 2020 party leadership contest.

Obviously Starmer has far more information on such cases than I have but there is a predictable conclusion to such incidents. For me he is nothing more than a Tory with a red tie. He may well be elected but any change will be superficial and will do nothing to ensure the root causes of the countries ills are tackled. Streeting and Reeves are even further to the right than Starmer. The political picture, and the prospect of substantial change, is depressing.

[Keith_M]

I’d rather politicians in this country didn’t stand shoulder to shoulder with either side. When so many innocents in the Middle East are facing unimaginable suffering , pain and slaughter seeing it used to score cheap parochial political points seems crass to say the least. Truth is I don’t fully understand all the issues, all I can do is pray for those directly affected.


:agree:


Why not just express sympathy for the many people suffering on both sides; the poor innocents in Israel that were brutally murdered by evil terrorists and the innocent people in Gaza losing their homes, or even their lives.

[MKHIBEE]

:agree:


Why not just express sympathy for the many people suffering on both sides; the poor innocents in Israel that were brutally murdered by evil terrorists and the innocent people in Gaza losing their homes, or even their lives.
Why not just express sympathy for the innocent lives lost on both sides of the conflict?

[grunt]

https://x.com/Taj_Ali1/status/1714983337343803630?s=20

The leaders of one of Scotland’s largest local Labour Party branches have resigned their positions in protest at the leadership’s stifling of debate on Gaza.

9 members of Glasgow Kelvin CLP Exec Committee including Labour Peer Baroness Bryan of Partick have resigned.

Resignations follow the submission of a motion calling on Anas Sarwar to press for a cessation of Israeli military action, the establishment of a humanitarian corridor and the release of hostages. The motion was due to be debated at a regular meeting of the local party tonight immediately after publication of the meeting agenda, party officials wrote to all CLPs saying that “any motions” about Gaza would be “out of order and should not be debated at party meetings”.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/Taj_Ali1/status/1714983337343803630?s=20

The leaders of one of Scotland’s largest local Labour Party branches have resigned their positions in protest at the leadership’s stifling of debate on Gaza.

9 members of Glasgow Kelvin CLP Exec Committee including Labour Peer Baroness Bryan of Partick have resigned.

Resignations follow the submission of a motion calling on Anas Sarwar to press for a cessation of Israeli military action, the establishment of a humanitarian corridor and the release of hostages. The motion was due to be debated at a regular meeting of the local party tonight immediately after publication of the meeting agenda, party officials wrote to all CLPs saying that “any motions” about Gaza would be “out of order and should not be debated at party meetings”.

Proud moment for the Labour Party.


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[Keith_M]

Why not just express sympathy for the innocent lives lost on both sides of the conflict?

Uhm, isn't that what I just said?

[Pretty Boy]

Obviously a lot of mitigating factors locally, particularly in Pincher's former seat, but that is two outstanding wins for Labour last night, overturning majorities of 19K and 24K respectively.

They have to be treated cautiously but there must be increasing confidence within the Labour Party that they can return with a huge majority next year (which goes against everything I posted about 10 posts ago). I don't think a vote for Labour is a particularly progressive vote but then I'm not sure a vote for anyone really is that right now. If people are willing to hold their nose and vote Labour just to rid us of the corrupt ********s who have governed us for the last decade and a half then I can live with that.

[DaveF]

I see the lib Dems managed a whole 419 votes in Tamworth while they got 9000 in befordshire.

Deal done in Tamworth perhaps?

[marinello59]

Labour are now building some momentum and that in itself will attract more voters. People like to be associated with the winning side. It will help their fortunes in Scotland as well, the prospect of removing the Tories from power will be hard to resist for many. Twenty plus seats for them in Scotland now looks realistic.

[marinello59]

I see the lib Dems managed a whole 419 votes in Tamworth while they got 9000 in befordshire.

Deal done in Tamworth perhaps?

I doubt it, the fought a pretty dirty campaign against the Labour candidate in Bedfordshire where they thought they might win. They knew were never going to win Tamworth.

[Jones28]

Thank **** that grifter Dorries is finally out.

The political equivalent of running down her contract.

[DaveF]

I doubt it, the fought a pretty dirty campaign against the Labour candidate in Bedfordshire where they thought they might win. They knew were never going to win Tamworth.

True, but their vote was a whole 2000 down on what they got in 2019. If they shifted to Labour it would have been a (small) help.

A resounding win, regardless.

[MKHIBEE]

Uhm, isn't that what I just said?

No, you you chose to use a descriptive characterisation of one murderous side in the conflict whilst completely ignoring the murderous character of another. My post just expressed sympathy for all innocents killed in the conflict.

[Stairway 2 7]

No, you you chose to embellish the character of one murderous side in the conflict whilst completely ignoring the murderous character of another. My post just expressed sympathy for all innocents killed in the conflict.

Probably for the other thread but Calling Hamas evil terrorists after shooting and kidnapping old ladies and kids and murdering hundreds of bairns at a festival, is hardly embellishing their character.

I think most people agree that Hamas and the Isreali gov are appalling and its the innocents that suffer.

[Stairway 2 7]

As for the byelections I thought Labour and tories would win one each. A stunning victory to be honest. I still think it'll tighten near election time but it's odds on a Labour victory

[MKHIBEE]

Probably for the other thread but Calling Hamas evil terrorists after shooting and kidnapping old ladies and kids and murdering hundreds of bairns at a festival, is hardly embellishing their character.

I think most people agree that Hamas and the Isreali gov are appalling and its the innocents that suffer.
Embellish was totally the wrong word, my apologies for that, descriptive characterisation would be a more accurate assessment. Previous post edited to reflect that.

[MKHIBEE]

As for the byelections I thought Labour and tories would win one each. A stunning victory to be honest. I still think it'll tighten near election time but it's odds on a Labour victory

I wasn’t even aware of the by elections such was my lack of interest in the political situation at the moment. Meet the old boss…………… as Roger Daltrey sang

[Northernhibee]

I see the lib Dems managed a whole 419 votes in Tamworth while they got 9000 in befordshire.

Deal done in Tamworth perhaps?

The big danger for the Tories if their vote share drops further is that if there's any realistic chance that tactical voting may put their position of being the official opposition at risk, the campaign for voting tactically will become so much stronger in areas with a big Tory majority.

[neil7908]

Labour are now building some momentum and that in itself will attract more voters. People like to be associated with the winning side. It will help their fortunes in Scotland as well, the prospect of removing the Tories from power will be hard to resist for many. Twenty plus seats for them in Scotland now looks realistic.

Clear now they are going to romp to power with a huge majority.

Even with the press against them and the Tories desperately flailing for any vote winning policy they can find, I still can't see anything other than a decisive Labour win.

I just hope they can make a difference in power. What I've seen so far isn't giving me a huge amount of hope that we'll see much done to reverse the damage of the last 13 years.

[grunt]

I just hope they can make a difference in power. What I've seen so far isn't giving me a huge amount of hope that we'll see much done to reverse the damage of the last 13 years.:agree: Hard agree.

[Northernhibee]

Clear now they are going to romp to power with a huge majority.

Even with the press against them and the Tories desperately flailing for any vote winning policy they can find, I still can't see anything other than a decisive Labour win.

I just hope they can make a difference in power. What I've seen so far isn't giving me a huge amount of hope that we'll see much done to reverse the damage of the last 13 years.

If nothing else, it's the start of a journey to where we need to be. The Tories in their current form will only go further and further to the right, where Starmer is taking up a centre ground whilst not giving the Tories a morsel to start their culture wars and nasty politics. By saying that they'd grow the economy and stamp out corruption, there's no way that the Tories can say that they'd be more corrupt and shrink the economy. Soon as Starmer says something like guaranteeing ECHR, scrapping Rwanda or the like, then the Tories and the media paint him as pro illegal immigration etc. and large swathes of the Brexit voting areas will fall for it.

Just now the election isn't being fought over the likes of you or me, it's about Starmer being four goals up at half time and not wanting to let the other team back into the game.

[Pretty Boy]

If nothing else, it's the start of a journey to where we need to be. The Tories in their current form will only go further and further to the right, where Starmer is taking up a centre ground whilst not giving the Tories a morsel to start their culture wars and nasty politics. By saying that they'd grow the economy and stamp out corruption, there's no way that the Tories can say that they'd be more corrupt and shrink the economy. Soon as Starmer says something like guaranteeing ECHR, scrapping Rwanda or the like, then the Tories and the media paint him as pro illegal immigration etc. and large swathes of the Brexit voting areas will fall for it.

Just now the election isn't being fought over the likes of you or me, it's about Starmer being four goals up at half time and not wanting to let the other team back into the game.

The hope is Starmer is following a tactic similar to Blair between 97 and 01. He basically matched his fiscal policy to that of the Tories in his first term to take away the 'you can't trust Labour with the economy' line. After he won in 2001 the spending taps got well and truly turned on.

Don't mistake that for a huge endorsement of Blair's Labour. There were a whole load of things they did wrong and a lot of their policy was hiding poverty and financial disparity with benefits. However it's inarguable that a majority of people then had it a damn site better than they do now. The stats on the usage of foodbanks, people living in relative poverty etc etc all back that up.

Unfortunately running on even a moderate left ticket like Corbyn or even Miliband did spooks more voters than it wins and it grows the oppositions vote by as much or more than it does your own. A steady Eddie approach from Starmer is frustrating but arguably sensible.

[Ozyhibby]

If nothing else, it's the start of a journey to where we need to be. The Tories in their current form will only go further and further to the right, where Starmer is taking up a centre ground whilst not giving the Tories a morsel to start their culture wars and nasty politics. By saying that they'd grow the economy and stamp out corruption, there's no way that the Tories can say that they'd be more corrupt and shrink the economy. Soon as Starmer says something like guaranteeing ECHR, scrapping Rwanda or the like, then the Tories and the media paint him as pro illegal immigration etc. and large swathes of the Brexit voting areas will fall for it.

Just now the election isn't being fought over the likes of you or me, it's about Starmer being four goals up at half time and not wanting to let the other team back into the game.

The problem with that strategy is that once you win, you don’t have a clear project to take you forward. Within the party there will be different interpretations of what you really meant. That can cause friction and ill discipline.


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[Northernhibee]

The problem with that strategy is that once you win, you don’t have a clear project to take you forward. Within the party there will be different interpretations of what you really meant. That can cause friction and ill discipline.


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Unfortunately under FPTP if it leads to government, that's what you have to do and it's the only real way that Labour can win an election.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/itvnewspolitics/status/1715309817110110433?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Over a week later Starmer gets a bit worried that war criming might not be that popular.

[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/itvnewspolitics/status/1715309817110110433?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Over a week later Starmer gets a bit worried that war criming might not be that popular.
I take it he condemned Israel’s action unequivocally and without hesitation then?

[Andy Bee]

I take it he condemned Israel’s action unequivocally and without hesitation then?

Nah He just denied everything he said and dropped Lammy, Thornberry and Bailie under the proverbial bus, It's a Labour thing.

[Ozyhibby]

Nah He just denied everything he said and dropped Lammy, Thornberry and Bailie under the proverbial bus, It's a Labour thing.

What he said was pretty clear and he should be apologising.


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[MKHIBEE]

Nah He just denied everything he said and dropped Lammy, Thornberry and Bailie under the proverbial bus, It's a Labour thing.

True to form then.

[Ozyhibby]

True to form then.

He has misjudged public opinion and is backtracking. There will be more politicians who have to do the same.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/welshambulance/status/1716106835256603003?s=12

A worry if Labour manage to win in Scotland.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/welshambulance/status/1716106835256603003?s=12

A worry if Labour manage to win in Scotland.


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Seems they are all hopeless, don't get ill in the UK

https://archive.ph/qm7u8
23rd Oct 23

Scots waiting lists are 25 times higher than England according to research.
NHS Scotland data showed 1,587 patients had been waiting at least 156 weeks for either an inpatient or day care procedure.
More than 1,500 Scots patients are waiting three years or more for hospital procedures while a total of 6,831 Scots have been on the list for two years.
Despite the population south of the border being significantly larger, NHS England data showed 265 patients waiting 104 weeks or more for an inpatient or day care procedure.

[grunt]

Scots waiting lists are 25 times higher than England according to research.
NHS Scotland data showed 1,587 patients had been waiting at least 156 weeks for either an inpatient or day care procedure.
More than 1,500 Scots patients are waiting three years or more for hospital procedures while a total of 6,831 Scots have been on the list for two years.
Despite the population south of the border being significantly larger, NHS England data showed 265 patients waiting 104 weeks or more for an inpatient or day care procedure.That's awful, shocking stats. If true. Shame they don't link to or provide any information on the "research" this article is based on. Strange that the journalist is so proud of her article that she hasn't even tweeted about it. Strange that this major news story - if true - is only number 46 of the paper's current top 50 most read / commented articles.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's awful, shocking stats. If true. Shame they don't link to or provide any information on the "research" this article is based on. Strange that the journalist is so proud of her article that she hasn't even tweeted about it. Strange that this major news story - if true - is only number 46 of the paper's current top 50 most read / commented articles.
Nhs Scotland numbers
https://www.scotsman.com/health/nhs-scotlands-waiting-times-demonstrably-worse-than-south-of-the-border-4165038

Think it's probably old news. Scotman from June. If I remember correctly Scotland did better on some metrics, some worse
https://archive.ph/9KnuW
Scotland’s long-term NHS waiting times are “demonstrably worse” than those south of the Border, new figures have revealed.

Thousands of Scots are waiting more than two years for treatment but in England only a few hundred face the same waits, according to Public Health Scotland (PHS) statistics.
Opposition leaders said the figures represented a “shameful failure” of the SNP government, and that ministers have previously been “quick to draw comparisons to England when it suits them”.

As of March 31, 7,849 Scots have been waiting over two years for inpatient, outpatient or day care treatment from NHS Scotland, while in England just 599 were suffering through the same lengthy waits.

England’s NHS also appears to outperform NHS Scotland at the 18-month mark. In England, 10,737 patients have been waiting longer than 18 months for treatment, while in Scotland, the figure is 21,681 - more than twice the number of English patients

[Ozyhibby]

Nhs Scotland numbers
https://www.scotsman.com/health/nhs-scotlands-waiting-times-demonstrably-worse-than-south-of-the-border-4165038

Think it's probably old news. Scotman from June. If I remember correctly Scotland did better on some metrics, some worse
https://archive.ph/9KnuW
Scotland’s long-term NHS waiting times are “demonstrably worse” than those south of the Border, new figures have revealed.

Thousands of Scots are waiting more than two years for treatment but in England only a few hundred face the same waits, according to Public Health Scotland (PHS) statistics.
Opposition leaders said the figures represented a “shameful failure” of the SNP government, and that ministers have previously been “quick to draw comparisons to England when it suits them”.

As of March 31, 7,849 Scots have been waiting over two years for inpatient, outpatient or day care treatment from NHS Scotland, while in England just 599 were suffering through the same lengthy waits.

England’s NHS also appears to outperform NHS Scotland at the 18-month mark. In England, 10,737 patients have been waiting longer than 18 months for treatment, while in Scotland, the figure is 21,681 - more than twice the number of English patients

I think it was on the very worst waits (more than a year) where Scotland performed poorly. All the other metrics were favourable.


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[grunt]

Surely not?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/25/labour-u-turns-on-promise-of-scottish-style-right-to-roam-in-england


Labour has U-turned on its pledge to create a Scottish-style right to roam in the English countryside if elected, the Guardian can reveal.

Instead of an assumed right of access, the party now says it will find other ways to create more access to land in England, after opposition from some landowners’ groups.

[Ozyhibby]

Surely not?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/25/labour-u-turns-on-promise-of-scottish-style-right-to-roam-in-england

How can you expect Labour to do these things when there is no money left. Same as abolishing the House of Lords. Just too expensive. [emoji849]


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[grunt]

How can you expect Labour to do these things when there is no money left. Same as abolishing the House of Lords. Just too expensive. [emoji849]
Well they shouldn't have promised to do something about it then?

[Ozyhibby]

Well they shouldn't have promised to do something about it then?

I was being sarcastic as they are two things with very little cost attached but they are not doing it anyway.
Usually a Labour u-turn is accompanied by a complaint that there will be no money and that is why they will have to be like Tories.


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[Jack]

Labour are doing so many U-turns they're going to end up looking like donuts*!




* Motoring term for going round in circles.

[MKHIBEE]

Seems they are all hopeless, don't get ill in the UK

https://archive.ph/qm7u8
23rd Oct 23

Scots waiting lists are 25 times higher than England according to research.
NHS Scotland data showed 1,587 patients had been waiting at least 156 weeks for either an inpatient or day care procedure.
More than 1,500 Scots patients are waiting three years or more for hospital procedures while a total of 6,831 Scots have been on the list for two years.
Despite the population south of the border being significantly larger, NHS England data showed 265 patients waiting 104 weeks or more for an inpatient or day care procedure.


My wife is in need of simple procedure and was promised a date for it to be done “ within 2 weeks” This was 4 weeks ago. She end up in A&E last week, they discharged her and told her to wait for an appointment. Nothing. She actually phoned up the admission desk for the department and managed to convince them to give a date. If left to the hospital she would die before anything happened. I realise that many are in an even worse position and I feel for them, but the state of the NHS is absolutely chronic and no one seems able to get to grips with problems it faces and the problems created.

[grunt]

Over 150 Muslim Labour councillors have come together to call on Labour's leadership to call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9RhlWdWEAAwNwf?format=jpg&name=large

[Ozyhibby]

Over 150 Muslim Labour councillors have come together to call on Labour's leadership to call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9RhlWdWEAAwNwf?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9RhlWdWEAAwNwf?format=jpg&name=largehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9RhlWdWEAAwNwf?format=jpg&name=large

No way Starmer does that. There are war crimes to support.


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[grunt]

Sorry about the screwed up post above. My Mac is playing up. Blasted operating system updates which cause problems.

[cabbageandribs1875]

indeed :agree: where's the searching questions for the puppet branch manager, go on

27335

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/rickyca69392149/status/1717462972891594827?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Message for Sarwar.


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[wookie70]

Talking to a mate yesterday. Traditional Thatcherite Tory voter. He showed me his email confirming his Labour membership. My view was his politics had not changed and just like me he had sought to join the party that most represented them. A large party doesn't really exist for me being a left of traditional Labour voter.

[lapsedhibee]

Talking to a mate yesterday. Traditional Thatcherite Tory voter. He showed me his email confirming his Labour membership. My view was his politics had not changed and just like me he had sought to join the party that most represented them. A large party doesn't really exist for me being a left of traditional Labour voter.

Possibly a CCHQ scam to lull floaters into not voting, assuming a Labour win's inevitable? :dunno: They have previous for falsifying/misrepresenting stuff.

[wookie70]

Possibly a CCHQ scam to lull floaters into not voting, assuming a Labour win's inevitable? :dunno: They have previous for falsifying/misrepresenting stuff.Just a Tory voter choosing a party that now fitshis politics. The Tories are now too far right for him and Labour are now the party of business etc. I think he is spot on. For every Tory voter that joins they will lose more like me who would never vote for Starmers Labour

[neil7908]

Just a Tory voter choosing a party that now fitshis politics. The Tories are now too far right for him and Labour are now the party of business etc. I think he is spot on. For every Tory voter that joins they will lose more like me who would never vote for Starmers Labour

I'm in the same boat as you. I've voted Labour in every UK election since I turned 18. That includes voting for leaders and platforms I had misgivings about. But I held my nose.

I also accepted Starmer would need to distance himself from Corbyn and make significant changes to the party to move them forward.

But it's too much. At first I thought he was a practical, hard headed and media savvy politician. It's become crystal clear however that he disagrees strongly with pretty much everything that would traditionally lead me to vote Labour.

The fact that he's better than Sunak, Truss and Boris is such a low bar and it's not enough for me to give him my vote. He of course doesn't care - he has enough Tories voting for him that they are now his voter base, and will pandered to when he's in no. 10.

Any vague hopes I had for some secret lefty policies to sneak in have disappeared 10 or so u-turns ago.

I guess it'll be the Green Party for me.

[marinello59]

I'm in the same boat as you. I've voted Labour in every UK election since I turned 18. That includes voting for leaders and platforms I had misgivings about. But I held my nose.

I also accepted Starmer would need to distance himself from Corbyn and make significant changes to the party to move them forward.

But it's too much. At first I thought he was a practical, hard headed and media savvy politician. It's become crystal clear however that he disagrees strongly with pretty much everything that would traditionally lead me to vote Labour.

The fact that he's better than Sunak, Truss and Boris is such a low bar and it's not enough for me to give him my vote. He of course doesn't care - he has enough Tories voting for him that they are now his voter base, and will pandered to when he's in no. 10.

Any vague hopes I had for some secret lefty policies to sneak in have disappeared 10 or so u-turns ago.

I guess it'll be the Green Party for me.

Or the Scottish Socialists?

[grunt]

Or the Scottish Socialists?
:greengrin

[wookie70]

I'm in the same boat as you. I've voted Labour in every UK election since I turned 18. That includes voting for leaders and platforms I had misgivings about. But I held my nose.

I also accepted Starmer would need to distance himself from Corbyn and make significant changes to the party to move them forward.

But it's too much. At first I thought he was a practical, hard headed and media savvy politician. It's become crystal clear however that he disagrees strongly with pretty much everything that would traditionally lead me to vote Labour.

The fact that he's better than Sunak, Truss and Boris is such a low bar and it's not enough for me to give him my vote. He of course doesn't care - he has enough Tories voting for him that they are now his voter base, and will pandered to when he's in no. 10.

Any vague hopes I had for some secret lefty policies to sneak in have disappeared 10 or so u-turns ago.

I guess it'll be the Green Party for me.

Blair was way to centrist for me. He got my vote to get him in but that was the first and last time. I returned to Labour when they returned to me with Corbyn. I can't see any way I will return again.

I suspect it will take some time but a new workers party will form when the money Labour gets from big companies to protect shady deals is sufficient enough that the Unions lose what little clout they have left in the party. That day cannot come soon enough for me and I hope there is a youngster who can start a movement who can capture the working persons mood and take old fogies like me along them. The time must come soon for younger folks to organise to resist a world that is frankly doing everything it can to destroy their futures.

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67268154

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67268154
Both main UK parties are tying themselves into an awful mess over this.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/1718915808821153861?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This is how much Labour care about Scottish opinion.


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[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/1718915808821153861?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This is how much Labour care about Scottish opinion.


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Boak inducing clip

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67269089

He has def got ‘heir to Blair’ credentials. Nearly 10,000 dead now and he’s cheerleading for them to carry on and keep going. And he’s not even elected yet.


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[MKHIBEE]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67269089

He has def got ‘heir to Blair’ credentials. Nearly 10,000 dead now and he’s cheerleading for them to carry on and keep going. And he’s not even elected yet.


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Hardly surprising as he is an unequivocal supporter of Zionism. Complete fraud of a man. Brings absolutely nothing to the table that’s beneficial to the masses

[lapsedhibee]

Hardly surprising as he is an unequivocal supporter of Zionism. Complete fraud of a man. Brings absolutely nothing to the table that’s beneficial to the masses

Isn't he just putting further distance between himself and Corbyn, mindful of the inevitable press onslaught if he doesn't? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

Isn't he just putting further distance between himself and Corbyn, mindful of the inevitable press onslaught if he doesn't? :dunno:

A small consolation for all those dead children in Gaza.


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[lapsedhibee]

A small consolation for all those dead children in Gaza.


Of course. Just not convinced he's a committed Zionist.

Or anything else, yet.

[neil7908]

Of course. Just not convinced he's a committed Zionist.

Or anything else, yet.

I think he's a nothing politician. I think he believes in nothing and stands for nothing, except his own desire for power. Would sell his granny for a few extra Tory voters.

Every move he makes is pure calculation. There is no greater policy, political ideology or sense of decency behind him.

Boris in a red tie.

[MKHIBEE]

Of course. Just not convinced he's a committed Zionist.

Or anything else, yet.

He said he supports “ Zionism without qualifications”, although, to be fair, that was a few sleeps ago, he may be looking how distancing himself from Zionism would benefit him. U turns a speciality.

[MKHIBEE]

I think he's a nothing politician. I think he believes in nothing and stands for nothing, except his own desire for power. Would sell his granny for a few extra Tory voters.

Every move he makes is pure calculation. There is no greater policy, political ideology or sense of decency behind him.

Boris in a red tie.
Nothing there to disagree with

[lapsedhibee]

I think he's a nothing politician. I think he believes in nothing and stands for nothing, except his own desire for power. Would sell his granny for a few extra Tory voters.

Every move he makes is pure calculation. There is no greater policy, political ideology or sense of decency behind him.


Can't see that I'll be voting for him either, but I sure hope he's Prime Minister in a year's time (ideally a lot sooner). Don't you? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

Can't see that I'll be voting for him either, but I sure hope he's Prime Minister in a year's time (ideally a lot sooner). Don't you? :dunno:

Yes, even Tony Blair did some good things domestically. And there is no alternative on offer down south that doesn’t involve killing lots of children.


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[Just Alf]

Andy Mcdonald suspended from Labour by Sir Keir for saying...

The MP for Middlesbrough told protesters on Saturday: "We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."

Personally I'm not seeing much wrong with that.
Surely we all want all innocent Israelis and Palestinians to live free and peacefully?

[MKHIBEE]

Can't see that I'll be voting for him either, but I sure hope he's Prime Minister in a year's time (ideally a lot sooner). Don't you? :dunno:

If he is PM it will be without my vote. If I want a Tory PM I will vote Tory.

[MKHIBEE]

Andy Mcdonald suspended from Labour by Sir Keir for saying...

The MP for Middlesbrough told protesters on Saturday: "We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."

Personally I'm not seeing much wrong with that.
Surely we all want all innocent Israelis and Palestinians to live free and peacefully?


Sirstarmer doesn’t apparently.

[neil7908]

Can't see that I'll be voting for him either, but I sure hope he's Prime Minister in a year's time (ideally a lot sooner). Don't you? :dunno:

He's the lesser of two evils but he won't be getting my vote.

He's going to win off the back of wooing lots of Tory voters, so he'll lead on that basis. I think he'll be a better PM than Sunak, Truss and Boris but I don't see him making any serious attempt to help the less well off in society.

I don't even think he's Blair 2.0. To be called that he'd need to show some interest in getting kids out of poverty. And getting serious cash to public services.

I think a better comparison is David Cameron 2.0.

I guess that's better than what we have now but that's the best I can manage. Who knows, maybe he'll prove me wrong 😂😂😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/1719375889320833346?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Jack]

https://x.com/bbcpolitics/status/1719375889320833346?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Branch office will be getting a doing from HQ!

[cabbageandribs1875]

brilliant London Labour councillors quit over party's Gaza stance and form Independent Socialist party | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/london-labour-councillors-quit-haringey-independent-socialist-party-b1119014.html?fbclid=IwAR08DF9O35mstLDbD5J9B3MBq7Q 2u31uBOpHNta9XItdTgu79G4U6lb6lhY)

A group of north London councillors have quit Labour in fury at Sir Keir Starmer (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/keir-starmer)'s stance on Gaza as a grassroots rebellion in the party threatens to boil over. (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-stance-gaza-israel-hamas-war-labour-councillors-mps-anger-b1117676.html)




Three members of Haringey (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/haringey) council, the town hall in shadow foreign secretary David Lammy's constituency, resigned to form the Independent Socialist Group on Tuesday. Mark Blake, Lotte Collett and Mary Mason said they were protesting the Labour leader's refusal to call for a ceasefire in Gaza, the "exclusion" of former leader Jeremy Corbyn from the party and what they described as the "abandonment" of progressive pledges.


though i was hoping the reason would be given as Labour no longer being a left-leaning socialist party and/or a working mens party, i've also wanted Momentum to leave Labour since Starmer got the gig, i hope they're next to leave and form a REAL labour party instead :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/cathynewman/status/1724113380959477865?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Labour reshuffle soon as well.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231114/8d7991fbdbd2d32292751ff4aa8803d3.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231114/5f26a3c7de3eb7d96eb54ea8ab0252f6.jpg


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[Stairway 2 7]

Asking for a ceasefire is daft when both sides don't want it, it's as pointless as asking Ukrainians for one. Israels ground offensive going faster than anyone expected so hopefully be over soon. The should definitely call out the indiscriminate bombing and lack of aid, although the bombing has mostly stopped due to IDF being inside Gaza

[marinello59]

Asking for a ceasefire is daft when both sides don't want it, it's as pointless as asking Ukrainians for one. Israels ground offensive going faster than anyone expected so hopefully be over soon. The should definitely call out the indiscriminate bombing and lack of aid, although the bombing has mostly stopped due to IDF being inside Gaza

:agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Asking for a ceasefire is daft when both sides don't want it, it's as pointless as asking Ukrainians for one. Israels ground offensive going faster than anyone expected so hopefully be over soon. The should definitely call out the indiscriminate bombing and lack of aid, although the bombing has mostly stopped due to IDF being inside Gaza

I think the Palestinian public might be keen on a ceasefire? Nobody cares what they think though.


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[marinello59]

I think the Palestinian public might be keen on a ceasefire? Nobody cares what they think though.


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I think it’s fairly obvious Stairway was referring to Hamas and the IDF as not wanting a ceasefire.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think the Palestinian public might be keen on a ceasefire? Nobody cares what they think though.


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Nope. Unfortunately their government wants to wipe Israel of the planet and the nutters on the other side wants to control and subjugate Palestine. Netanyahu will definitely be voted out and I think Hamas all but wiped out. Who come next Netanyahu has said he doesn't want the PA. Hopefully the Palestinians get to vote as soon as possible

Back on the thread topic it's obviously not putting of voter as Labour's poll lead has stretched in all 3 polls this week, but then again the opposition is the tories so not that impressive

[Ozyhibby]

Nope. Unfortunately their government wants to wipe Israel of the planet and the nutters on the other side wants to control and subjugate Palestine. Netanyahu will definitely be voted out and I think Hamas all but wiped out. Who come next Netanyahu has said he doesn't want the PA. Hopefully the Palestinians get to vote as soon as possible

Back on the thread topic it's obviously not putting of voter as Labour's poll lead has stretched in all 3 polls this week, but then again the opposition is the tories so not that impressive

Foreign policy barely moves any votes in UK (or elsewhere) elections. The invasion of Iraq was probably the biggest foreign policy mistake this century and it’s still costing us now but Labour were re-elected after it anyway.
When it comes to placing their vote, it’s all about the economy.


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[Ozyhibby]

Nope. Unfortunately their government wants to wipe Israel of the planet and the nutters on the other side wants to control and subjugate Palestine. Netanyahu will definitely be voted out and I think Hamas all but wiped out. Who come next Netanyahu has said he doesn't want the PA. Hopefully the Palestinians get to vote as soon as possible

Back on the thread topic it's obviously not putting of voter as Labour's poll lead has stretched in all 3 polls this week, but then again the opposition is the tories so not that impressive

My point was that nobody really speaks for the Palestinian people. Certainly not the ****bags of Hamas. I don’t think it’s pointless to be calling for a ceasefire.
I agree Hamas and Netanyahu need to be gone. I just don’t think this achieves that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

My point was that nobody really speaks for the Palestinian people. Certainly not the ****bags of Hamas. I don’t think it’s pointless to be calling for a ceasefire.
I agree Hamas and Netanyahu need to be gone. I just don’t think this achieves that.


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I think it could Raqqa is still free of ISIS 6 years later. Netanyahu will hold on as long as the war does, once Hamas is defeated in Gaza the inquest will begin and he's thankfully toast

[MKHIBEE]

My point was that nobody really speaks for the Palestinian people. Certainly not the ****bags of Hamas. I don’t think it’s pointless to be calling for a ceasefire.
I agree Hamas and Netanyahu need to be gone. I just don’t think this achieves that.


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Labour ministers face the sack if they do not support Starmer’s line on ceasefires in Gaza.. I have no words, none that I could put on-site anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/bethrigby/status/1724560624422707252?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Labour leaderships fudge. If I was a Labour mp I could probably get behind this if the two state part specifically mentioned the removal of settlements. Until this subject is broached then it’s all just pie in the sky nonsense.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-labour-mps-murray-and-shanks-reject-snps-gaza-ceasefire-motion-and-back-starmer

Scottish Labour saying one thing to the Scottish public but voting for the opposite when given the chance.


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[JimBHibees]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-labour-mps-murray-and-shanks-reject-snps-gaza-ceasefire-motion-and-back-starmer

Scottish Labour saying one thing to the Scottish public but voting for the opposite when given the chance.


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Politicking

[Stairway 2 7]

It'll tighten but jeez tories need to change course with 12 months to go

@ElectionMapsUK
🚨 || General Election Nowcast (15/11):

LAB: 438 (+242) - 45.2%
CON: 125 (-251) - 26.1%
LDM: 46 (+38) - 10.9%
SNP: 18 (-30) - 3.0%
PLC: 3 (+1) - 0.6%
GRN: 1 (=) - 6.2%
RFM: 0 (=) - 7.2%
Oth: 0 (=) - 0.8%

LAB Maj. of 226.

Changes w/ GE2019 notionals

[Ozyhibby]

About a 1/3 of Labour MP’s backed SNP motion tonight.


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[DaveF]

About a 1/3 of Labour MP’s backed SNP motion tonight.


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3 front benchers resign.

[Ozyhibby]

3 front benchers resign.

Including Jess Phillips.


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[Ozyhibby]

3 front benchers resign.

Up to 8 now.


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[MKHIBEE]

About a 1/3 of Labour MP’s backed SNP motion tonight.


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That’s a pathetically low number for a supposed left leaning party.

[Stairway 2 7]

5 gone, I think 8 could go. Labour's humanitarian pause vote beaten by 183-290. A line of difference between the two parties but I don't think it'll effect the polls in anyway regardless

[marinello59]

5 gone, I think 8 could go. Labour's humanitarian pause vote beaten by 183-290. A line of difference between the two parties but I don't think it'll effect the polls in anyway regardless

I don't think it was that bad an idea. Even though it is what we all want there is no realistic chance of a cease fire, asking for a humanitarian pause is taking a more pragmatic view and something Israel might actually have agreed to, giving the civilian population some relief they just wont get until the war is over. I guess Starmer was aiming for a realistic target and was also taking a punt on Biden not backing a full ceasefire in the near future. Takes the heat of Sunak though as Starmer takes the kicking that should be his.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/400991233_6989753431045684_6505081415087110420_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=fjnlJ1xJsY8AX_Gvhmw&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCdx4PsLI2fnqOicXFwdUr1j7iYQAXQTcy5Ua-mhuTY_g&oe=655959B8



hopefully more can hold their heads high :agree: **** Starmer/Streeting/Lammy

[Stairway 2 7]

That’s a pathetically low number for a supposed left leaning party.

Not wanting a ceasefire isn't left or right, some on the left wanted a ceasefire as soon as Russia invaded some didn't, some left wingers were pacifists in ww2 some not same for defeating isis in Raqqa. People socially left can have a multitude of opinions on Foreign policy and defence, its gaslighting to say you have to believe this or your right wing.

I think Labour are also worried about shaking off the antisemitism that hung over them. Some will say why have some in the party correctly imo been putting all their energy into this cause, but silent when Assad flattened Aleppo and gassed his citizens, silent on Saudi Arabias genocide of the Houthis or Turkey bombing kurdish hospitals, is it because they were Muslim on Muslim.

Hopefully this highlights the genocide Israel has been committing for decades, shooting journalists, stealing land bombing indiscriminately. Hopefully the same people awoke get interested in other genocides like the Uyghurs in China, Pakistan this week saying they are going to deport 1.7 million Afghans, the thousands of Muslims killed in Myanmar this year, the 220k killed in darfur with 2000 killed this week in a mass killing of non Arabs
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/10/corpses-on-streets-sudans-rsf-kills-1300-in-darfur-monitors-say

[marinello59]

Not wanting a ceasefire isn't left or right, some on the left wanted a ceasefire as soon as Russia invaded some didn't, some left wingers were pacifists in ww2 some not same for defeating isis in Raqqa. People socially left can have a multitude of opinions on Foreign policy and defence, its gaslighting to say you have to believe this or your right wing.

I think Labour are also worried about shaking off the antisemitism that hung over them. Some will say why have some in the party correctly imo been putting all their energy into this cause, but silent when Assad flattened Aleppo and gassed his citizens, silent on Saudi Arabias genocide of the Houthis or Turkey bombing kurdish hospitals, is it because they were Muslim on Muslim.

Hopefully this highlights the genocide Israel has been committing for decades, shooting journalists, stealing land bombing indiscriminately. Hopefully the same people awoke get interested in other genocides like the Uyghurs in China, Pakistan this week saying they are going to deport 1.7 million Afghans, the thousands of Muslims killed in Myanmar this year, the 220k killed in darfur with 2000 killed this week in a mass killing of non Arabs
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/10/corpses-on-streets-sudans-rsf-kills-1300-in-darfur-monitors-say

Excellent post.

[neil7908]

Can anyone explain what the actual **** Starmer means by this:

“Leadership is about doing the right thing. That is the least the public deserves. And the least that leadership demands.”

What public is he referring to here - the UK? Is he suggesting 4,000 dead Palestinian children is the right thing?

His whole statement defending the governments position could have come straight from No. 10. And now we have a Labour Government in waiting that has lost the few people that had some compassion.

[Stairway 2 7]

Un has just ratified a resolution that is similar to Labour's defeated ammendments. A few days pause to allow aid, push for compliance with international law in the protection of civilians and Hamas to release the hundreds of civilians.

Uk and US didn't veto so it passed

[marinello59]

Un has just ratified a resolution that is similar to Labour's defeated ammendments. A few days pause to allow aid, push for compliance with international law in the protection of civilians and Hamas to release the hundreds of civilians.

Uk and US didn't veto so it passed

Let’s hope that we get the pause. It the only hope the civilian population have in the short term.

[MKHIBEE]

Not wanting a ceasefire isn't left or right, some on the left wanted a ceasefire as soon as Russia invaded some didn't, some left wingers were pacifists in ww2 some not same for defeating isis in Raqqa. People socially left can have a multitude of opinions on Foreign policy and defence, its gaslighting to say you have to believe this or your right wing.

I think Labour are also worried about shaking off the antisemitism that hung over them. Some will say why have some in the party correctly imo been putting all their energy into this cause, but silent when Assad flattened Aleppo and gassed his citizens, silent on Saudi Arabias genocide of the Houthis or Turkey bombing kurdish hospitals, is it because they were Muslim on Muslim.

Hopefully this highlights the genocide Israel has been committing for decades, shooting journalists, stealing land bombing indiscriminately. Hopefully the same people awoke get interested in other genocides like the Uyghurs in China, Pakistan this week saying they are going to deport 1.7 million Afghans, the thousands of Muslims killed in Myanmar this year, the 220k killed in darfur with 2000 killed this week in a mass killing of non Arabs
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/10/corpses-on-streets-sudans-rsf-kills-1300-in-darfur-monitors-say


Thats not what I said and any such implication is purely speculation on your part.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thats not what I said and any such implication is purely speculation on your part.

You said its a low number for a left leaning party. You can be far left and believe in military action to stop evil.
"If you cannot convince a fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement" - Leon Trotsky

Many of they frontbenchers that left also voted against the tory proposal to bomb ISIS. I'm glad we didn't listen as we destroyed ISIS completely. Raqqa where there was slave markets now has musicians. Some military intervention is justified to people on the left.

What shouldn't be justified if blanket bombing but that isn't left or right that's just humanity. Many on the left from Pol Pot, Mao to stalin lacked all humanity.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm glad we didn't listen as we destroyed ISIS completely.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/8/isil-kills-30-syrian-forces-in-desert-war-monitor-reports

You might want to review your news sources.

And Israel rejected the un resolution.

[MKHIBEE]

You said its a low number for a left leaning party. You can be far left and believe in military action to stop evil.
"If you cannot convince a fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement" - Leon Trotsky

Many of they frontbenchers that left also voted against the tory proposal to bomb ISIS. I'm glad we didn't listen as we destroyed ISIS completely. Raqqa where there was slave markets now has musicians. Some military intervention is justified to people on the left.

What shouldn't be justified if blanket bombing but that isn't left or right that's just humanity. Many on the left from Pol Pot, Mao to stalin lacked all humanity.
We are talking, specifically, about the present situation in Gaza. Nothing to do with Stalin or Pol Pot. Do you want to counter with the right’s horror leaders such as Hitler or Pinochet. Perhaps if I had said it’s a pathetically low number from a party that is supposed to be compassionate and humane? Either way, it doesn’t really matter because Isreal will stop when they are ready. Many in the western world will have serious questions to answer when they do and I doubt they will comfortable answering them

[grunt]

Helen Hayes Labour MP:


Today I made my position absolutely clear. I support a ceasefire in Gaza.

I did not vote for a divisive amendment by the SNP but I will continue to represent the views of my constituents on this issue and to call for a #CeasefireNOW

Supports a ceasefire. Does not vote for a ceasefire. This is down to Starmer.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/8/isil-kills-30-syrian-forces-in-desert-war-monitor-reports

You might want to review your news sources.

And Israel rejected the un resolution.

Let's play silly if you fancy but small armed attacks from little bands versus being a semi country controlling 12 million people 50,000 fighters. Iraq and Syrian ISIS have lost almost 100% of land and fighters.

I'm sure Israel will be more than happy if in 6 years time Hamas are a small band of fighter's

If Turkey invaded Greece and controlled every city and town, reduced the Greek military to a few groups in hiding with machine guns only, you'd say yep Turkey has defeated and conquered Greece. Someone would come back and say no not technically there's a few bams with flags check your sources

Yes of course Israel rejected the resolution they aren't going to have any ceasefire or pause now they are in the ground stage of the invasion

[weecounty hibby]

It was all about standing up for what is right. Israel doesn't give a **** about UN resolutions or requests from any other country. They would never agree to a ceasefire even if it came as a UN resolution. But by not voting for it in HoC it shows two things. 1 The Tories and New new Labour are one and the same. 2 Some of the new new Labour team would vote against anything proposed by the SNP. There are some notable exclusions in the above. The 50 odd Labour MPs who voted in favour should have clear consciences about how they voted. Starmer and his whips are **** and we all know that's the Tories in general.

[Ozyhibby]

Helen Hayes Labour MP:



Supports a ceasefire. Does not vote for a ceasefire. This is down to Starmer.

I don’t think Starmer is to blame for her being a bit of a clown.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Let's play silly if you fancy but small armed attacks from little bands versus being a semi country controlling 12 million people 50,000 fighters. Iraq and Syrian ISIS have lost almost 100% of land and fighters.

I'm sure Israel will be more than happy if in 6 years time Hamas are a small band of fighter's

If Turkey invaded Greece and controlled every city and town, reduced the Greek military to a few groups in hiding with machine guns only, you'd say yep Turkey has defeated and conquered Greece. Someone would come back and say no not technically there's a few bams with flags check your sources

Yes of course Israel rejected the resolution they aren't going to have any ceasefire or pause now they are in the ground stage of the invasion

https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-state-of-al-qaeda-and-isis-in-2023#:~:text=ISIS%20remains%20resilient%20and%20ha s,part%20of%20a%20multistage%20campaign.

Believe that ISIS is destroyed if you want but I'm more willing to believe those who study such things.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-state-of-al-qaeda-and-isis-in-2023#:~:text=ISIS%20remains%20resilient%20and%20ha s,part%20of%20a%20multistage%20campaign.

Believe that ISIS is destroyed if you want but I'm more willing to believe those who study such things.

OK not destroyed completely your right. They lost 99.99% of the area they held and 99.99% of the public controlled by ISIS are now free. Only a pedant would say they weren't defeated.

If Russia after this winter control's every single Ukrainian town and city and 6 years later the only have to face bands of freedom fighters again only pedants would say they didn't win.

The point is every objective of the coalition against ISIS was achieved and they were right to bomb them into a militia from a nation. You can debate that or put up a link to something again

[Hibrandenburg]

OK not destroyed completely your right. They lost 99.99% of the area they held and 99.99% of the public controlled by ISIS are now free. Only a pedant would say they weren't defeated.

If Russia after this winter control's every single Ukrainian town and city and 6 years later the only have to face bands of freedom fighters again only pedants would say they didn't win.

The point is every objective of the coalition against ISIS was achieved and they were right to bomb them into a militia from a nation. You can debate that or put up a link to something again

I'm not sure you can defeat an ideology, they may have been decimated on the battlefield but the ideology will have just gone to ground waiting for the chance to reestablish itself in another guise. See fascism.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not sure you can defeat an ideology, they may have been decimated on the battlefield but the ideology will have just gone to ground waiting for the chance to reestablish itself in another guise. See fascism.

Islamic fundamentalism will definitely not be defeated and ISIS inspired groups will pop up all over Africa constantly. The nation like state was definitely defeated, mostly due to the public in Raqqa ect themselves despising them.

[grunt]

I don’t think Starmer is to blame for her being a bit of a clown.
Starmer created the circumstances where she was unable to vote according to her principles.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer created the circumstances where she was unable to vote according to her principles.

56 of her colleagues voted with their principles. I’d say for her they were not principles, just something she knows to be right but not worth risking your career prospects over. She is telling the world she is lobby fodder for the leadership.


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[grunt]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

[DaveF]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

I wish I was surprised but west Lothian never seems to amaze, when it comes to people like this.

[lapsedhibee]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

And what? Giving Pantomime Dame Andrea Jenkyns a run for her money with that statement.

[Ozyhibby]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

Bet she still gets votes.


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[JimBHibees]

Helen Hayes Labour MP:



Supports a ceasefire. Does not vote for a ceasefire. This is down to Starmer.

Yep she wants her cake and to eat it. What a principled position, not.

[JimBHibees]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

Wow that is a shocker and quite dangerous raising the sectarian card. Strange one and no idea what she means by it.

[Ozyhibby]

Wow that is a shocker and quite dangerous raising the sectarian card. Strange one and no idea what she means by it.

Says a lot about the Labour Party that she is still the candidate.


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[DaveF]

Bet she still gets votes.


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If selected and covering an area with Blackburn and Bathgate in it, then blowing her unionist trumpet will ensure she gets votes.

[JimBHibees]

If selected and covering an area with Blackburn and Bathgate in it, then blowing her unionist trumpet will ensure she gets votes.

Maybe less so with the catholic one :greengrin

Genuinely depressing to be honest.

[lucky]

And what? Giving Pantomime Dame Andrea Jenkyns a run for her money with that statement.

No chance will she be selected. But the rest are not much better.

[greenlex]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900
quite depressing that this is the calibre of wannabe mps from any party to be honest. The fact she’s Labour possibly even more so.

[Bishop Hibee]

Vote for this Labour candidate in Livingston ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_Umn9pXoAAqBrM?format=jpg&name=900x900

This is a disgrace. Imagine living in a country you hate. I’m of Irish Catholic ancestry and have voted SNP since Labour refused to support non payment of the poll tax. Shame on McConnell.