The future of the Labour Party

[Hibbyradge]

I decided not to post this in the Leadership thread as that contest is all but over. Corbyn will be declared winner by a huge margin.

So what does the future hold for Labour?

What with the exposure of Momentum promised by Channel 4 Dispatches already to be viewed tomorrow night, Panorama will make it a very busy night for those concerned about the future of the Party!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07x0bvx

[Hibbyradge]

This obviously belongs in here; too.

One view as to what should happen. A view to which I'm increasingly warming.

http://newpolitics.apps-1and1.net/the-perils-of-corbynista-populism

[Betty Boop]

This obviously belongs in here; too.

One view as to what should happen. A view to which I'm increasingly warming.

http://newpolitics.apps-1and1.net/the-perils-of-corbynista-populism

Think you posted that yesterday. :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Think you posted that yesterday. :rolleyes:

Yes, which is why I said that it actually belonged in here.

When you've lost the argument, find fault with the grammar, the spelling or something.

:rolleyes:

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The best scenario for me is Corbyn wins and the party get pumped at the next election. Then a critical mass of his followers will accept the need to have what the media/public consider an electable leader and they can start again from there.

Smith winning is a more worrying scenario that will take longer to solve. He would also get pumped at the next election (the fact he considers himself a PM material is hilarious) and then there's a huge call to get Corbyn or someone similar in charge and they're back when they started. And that's if they haven't split by then.

Just my opinion of course, would be interesting to see others views on how they solve this.

[marinello59]

The best scenario for me is Corbyn wins and the party get pumped at the next election. Then a critical mass of his followers will accept the need to have what the media/public consider an electable leader and they can start again from there.

Smith winning is a more worrying scenario that will take longer to solve. He would also get pumped at the next election (the fact he considers himself a PM material is hilarious) and then there's a huge call to get Corbyn or someone similar in charge and they're back when they started. And that's if they haven't split by then.

Just my opinion of course, would be interesting to see others views on how they solve this.

I think the Labour Party is finished as a Parliamentary Party, I very much doubt that they will be forming a Government again. Corbyn will win this contest easily and Momentum's grip on the party will see a lot of current Labour Mp's deselected. It can only end with a split, there won't be anything left after the next election to move forward with.

[Hibbyradge]

The best scenario for me is Corbyn wins and the party get pumped at the next election. Then a critical mass of his followers will accept the need to have what the media/public consider an electable leader and they can start again from there.

Smith winning is a more worrying scenario that will take longer to solve. He would also get pumped at the next election (the fact he considers himself a PM material is hilarious) and then there's a huge call to get Corbyn or someone similar in charge and they're back when they started. And that's if they haven't split by then.

Just my opinion of course, would be interesting to see others views on how they solve this.

I'd like your analysis to be correct, but I'm 100% certain that Momentum and the rest of the Trots don't care about winning an election.

Corbyn can stay leader for as long as he says the things that his worshipers want to hear. He's always going to be able to blame someone else, be it the MSM, "Blairites" or the PLP.

The new £3 members who aren't Trots or Greens or Tories are relatively wealthy, middle class, born-again lefties and seem to be a combination of folk reliving their radical student days and others making up for missing out on that phase, 30 or 40 years ago!

They're not worried about the Tories being in power for the next decade or more, because they know they'll be well looked after during that time.

They're not on benefits or working for minimum wage or on zero hours contracts. They can afford to protest righteously from their comfortable sidelines.

In the meantime, RIP Labour Party and any real hope for those who need it so desperately and need it now.

[ronaldo7]

The same private production company behind both Dispatches and Panorama programmes last night. The end is nigh, and my popcorn is just about finished.:greengrin

https://t.co/TyPbL0jFdA

This is a great piece all the way from Scandinavia, on how they see Corbyn and his policies.

https://t.co/3qGGVj9LCP

[Hibbyradge]

The same private production company behind both Dispatches and Panorama programmes last night. The end is nigh, and my popcorn is just about finished.:greengrin

https://t.co/TyPbL0jFdA

This is a great piece all the way from Scandinavia, on how they see Corbyn and his policies.

https://t.co/3qGGVj9LCP

Maybe he should move there.

He's going down like a lead balloon in England. He's already floored in Caledonia.

[Hibbyradge]

I think the Labour Party is finished as a Parliamentary Party, I very much doubt that they will be forming a Government again. Corbyn will win this contest easily and Momentum's grip on the party will see a lot of current Labour Mp's deselected. It can only end with a split, there won't be anything left after the next election to move forward with.

I probably agree, but there may be hope, although it's the Telegraph so you're clearly obliged to interpret the words as manipulative lies.

"The thing is that while for Corbynistas party membership is a lifestyle choice – they don’t want, or need, a Labour government – it is different for union members. The UNISON members who work in the NHS, the UNITE members who drive buses, the low paid workers facing pay cuts as the disastrous and punitive Universal Credit replaces tax credits – they all desperately need a Labour government. That pressure from members will only increase, and eventually it will be responded to – the industrial wing of the labour movement will rescue Labour from itself because it needs a parliamentary wing to effect change."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/19/jeremy-corbyn-will-keep-on-fighting-but-labour-moderates-wont-gi/

[Jonnyboy]

You couldn't make this up

http://www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/09/20/labour-loses-council-control-without-an-election/

[hibsbollah]

The same private production company behind both Dispatches and Panorama programmes last night. The end is nigh, and my popcorn is just about finished.:greengrin

https://t.co/TyPbL0jFdA

This is a great piece all the way from Scandinavia, on how they see Corbyn and his policies.

https://t.co/3qGGVj9LCP

An excellent piece. Demonstrates the disconnect between what we are told is radical or extreme and the reality. It just isn't possible to have a policy of mixed economy without it being jumped all over by the establishment. Neither it is possible to have any alternatives to the centre-right neo liberal consensus. Behind all the mockery of course, they are scared ****less of Corbyn, which is why the coup has taken place and the Labour Party is now in disarray.

[hibsbollah]

You couldn't make this up

http://www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/09/20/labour-loses-council-control-without-an-election/

I think it's evidence that the plotters don't give a monkeys about the Party, but instead of doing the honourable 'set up a SDP' thing they are trying to do damage to it from the inside before they leave.

The old Labour-Tories duopoly was on borrowed time anyway, but the way things are going I can't see it lasting the year.

[ronaldo7]

I'm hearing that Scottish Labour are to be fully autonomous (think it's the third time this year), although bad news for the Corbynistas, purging of members will not be devolved, they'll only be allowed to advise.

Fully autonomous must mean something different to the NEC.

New popcorn needed.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

An excellent piece. Demonstrates the disconnect between what we are told is radical or extreme and the reality. It just isn't possible to have a policy of mixed economy without it being jumped all over by the establishment. Neither it is possible to have any alternatives to the centre-right neo liberal consensus. Behind all the mockery of course, they are scared ****less of Corbyn, which is why the coup has taken place and the Labour Party is now in disarray.

Spot the trot buzzwords😂😂😂

[Hibbyradge]

I think it's evidence that the plotters don't give a monkeys about the Party, but instead of doing the honourable 'set up a SDP' thing they are trying to do damage to it from the inside before they leave.

The old Labour-Tories duopoly was on borrowed time anyway, but the way things are going I can't see it lasting the year.

lol

On a more serious note, note how" centre-left " is never used as a description in Trot statements.

Bammy Trots out lefting each other.

Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm hearing that Scottish Labour are to be fully autonomous (think it's the third time this year), although bad news for the Corbynistas, purging of members will not be devolved, they'll only be allowed to advise.

Fully autonomous must mean something different to the NEC.

New popcorn needed.:greengrin

Scottish Labour might as well pack up and join the SNP.

Unless they're anti Blairism that is.

[ronaldo7]

Scottish Labour might as well pack up and join the SNP.

Unless they're anti Blairism that is.

Most of them have.:greengrin

You might like this.:wink:

17473

[Hibbyradge]

Most of them have.:greengrin

You might like this.:wink:

17473

:greengrin

You really are enjoying yourself these days, Ronnie! :thumbsup:

[The_Exile]

It's painful to watch the "party of the people" implode like this. Labour are obviously no longer what they once were and although a large section of labour voters would vote for a monkey wearing a red rosette, I feel they aren't really going to be relevant any time in the immediate future. For politics to work well you need strong opposition as well as strong leadership and I don't really see either of those in Westminster at the current time.

I personally don't see what all the fuss is about Corbyn, it's not that he's too radically left, it's that British politics has shifted so much to the right that he's being portrayed the way he is. May we live in interesting times.........

[JeMeSouviens]

It's painful to watch the "party of the people" implode like this. Labour are obviously no longer what they once were and although a large section of labour voters would vote for a monkey wearing a red rosette, I feel they aren't really going to be relevant any time in the immediate future. For politics to work well you need strong opposition as well as strong leadership and I don't really see either of those in Westminster at the current time.

I personally don't see what all the fuss is about Corbyn, it's not that he's too radically left, it's that British politics has shifted so much to the right that he's being portrayed the way he is. May we live in interesting times.........

His problem is that he hasn't come out of nowhere: he's spent 30 years being noteworthy for voting against his own party and supporting Marxists, Irish republicans, radical Islamists, etc. His by now not-especially-radical domestic policies will never get a fair hearing because he's been tagged with the label of extremist.

[AndyM_1875]

His problem is that he hasn't come out of nowhere: he's spent 30 years being noteworthy for voting against his own party and supporting Marxists, Irish republicans, radical Islamists, etc. His by now not-especially-radical domestic policies will never get a fair hearing because he's been tagged with the label of extremist.

All of which will go up on Tory adverts and billboards at the next election.
Add all that to the fact that he's a pretty rotten leader.

I was recently spending time with my family in the south of England and there is real dislike of Corbyn, and these are folk who voted for Tony Blair at 3 elections. Up here Corbyn is seen as mildly interesting but really not very relevant to politics in Scotland. In England, especially in the in the swing seats Labour has to win to get elected he's seen as too left wing, too London and too old. Theresa May is seen as the 'sensible choice'.
Was all very disheartening to hear.

[ronaldo7]

The Branch office leader has failed to active her button:greengrin Oops indeed.

17476

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/corbyn-allies-set-to-block-kezia-dugdales-plans-for-autonomy-for-scottish-labour.22709

[Hibbyradge]

Britain Elects (@britainelects) tweeted at 9:15 p.m. on Sun, Sep 25, 2016:

Scottish Westminster voting intention:
SNP: 50%
CON: 21%
LAB: 16%
LDEM: 5%
GRN: 4%
UKIP: 4%
(via Panelbase)

[ronaldo7]

Anybody on here live near or in the Braes area of Falkirk?

The upcoming elections in the area seem to be hitting the headlines. Labour to stand aside for their Tory pals.

https://t.co/0DwyE6YU6L

[One Day Soon]

Anybody on here live near or in the Braes area of Falkirk?

The upcoming elections in the area seem to be hitting the headlines. Labour to stand aside for their Tory pals.

https://t.co/0DwyE6YU6L


If that's true you will be delighted. Labour knackered out of the way so that you can see off the Tories. All those Labour voters will surely vote SNP won't they?

[Moulin Yarns]

Mainly rural area south of Falkirk, includes the villages of Slammanan, Avonbridge, Shieldhill, California, Brightons and Maddiston. some affluent areas. so there may be some tories to be found, but not sure there would be enough, including Labour turncoats, to dislodge an SNP candidate.

[ronaldo7]

If that's true you will be delighted. Labour knackered out of the way so that you can see off the Tories. All those Labour voters will surely vote SNP won't they?

That's a NO from you then, as always.:na na:

[lucky]

One branch does not decide how many candidates are put up. It's taken at council wide form level. That's not to say in some multi member wards that tactical decisions on the number candidates won't be taken. In my own ward at present it's 2 labour and 2 nats. We are fielding 2 candidates but I suspect the nats will try for 3 but it will split their vote with STV system we have which could give us a second seat or Tories one.

[ronaldo7]

If that's true you will be delighted. Labour knackered out of the way so that you can see off the Tories. All those Labour voters will surely vote SNP won't they?

It seems Sadiq Khan is doing a grand job pushing them our way.

[Colr]

If that's true you will be delighted. Labour knackered out of the way so that you can see off the Tories. All those Labour voters will surely vote SNP won't they?

It seems Sadiq Khan is doing a grand job pushing them our way.

Would be interesting if the SNP stood down here - pro brexit, maybe abolishing the House of Lords and replacing it with a UK federal govenment with the Hof C being the English Assembly. Wouldn't win but it would shift the agenda.

[steakbake]

If that's true you will be delighted. Labour knackered out of the way so that you can see off the Tories. All those Labour voters will surely vote SNP won't they?

It seems Sadiq Khan is doing a grand job pushing them our way.

Calamitously ill-informed intervention by him today. If he's pitching to be a future Labour leader and claw back some voters from the SNP, then today he has gone the wrong way about it. Die hard unionists and lifelong Labourites might like to pretend Scottish independence is about nativism, but middle of the road no voters and the vast majority of Yes voters know it's complete nonsense.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;4957441]

Calamitously ill-informed intervention by him today. If he's pitching to be a future Labour leader and claw back some voters from the SNP, then today he has gone the wrong way about it. Die hard unionists and lifelong Labourites might like to pretend Scottish independence is about nativism, but middle of the road no voters and the vast majority of Yes voters know it's complete nonsense.

:agree: It seems it's ok for others though.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/367580589307617280

[marinello59]

:agree: It seems it's ok for others though.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/367580589307617280

It hasn't been his day really has it? :greengrin

[steakbake]

[QUOTE=steakbake;4958425]

:agree: It seems it's ok for others though.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/367580589307617280

Well of course, that's why you get those most curious of specimens in the east end of Glasgow: west coast Labourites who are very much pro Ireland yet when it comes to their home country, it's some kind of terrible thing.

George Galloway types: all for self determination for pretty much any peoples of the world except where it comes to their own doorstep.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;4958509]

Well of course, that's why you get those most curious of specimens in the east end of Glasgow: west coast Labourites who are very much pro Ireland yet when it comes to their home country, it's some kind of terrible thing.

George Galloway types: all for self determination for pretty much any peoples of the world except where it comes to their own doorstep.


We have self-determination. We just determined what we think. Could Nicola get on with trying to run the country now for a while at least?

[ronaldo7]

It hasn't been his day really has it? :greengrin

https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/835813437901008898 :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Even when handed gifts like todays U-turn on NI Corbyn completely fluffs any chance to make some ground on the Tories.

Doesn't even use all his questions when has a massive opportunity to hammer May.

Utterly depressing to be governed by this mob who can basically do what they want unless their own MPs stop her.

[Hibbyradge]

Even when handed gifts like todays U-turn on NI Corbyn completely fluffs any chance to make some ground on the Tories.

Doesn't even use all his questions when has a massive opportunity to hammer May.

Utterly depressing to be governed by this mob who can basically do what they want unless their own MPs stop her.

:agree:

Relentlessly incompetant.

The government is a shambles, with a working majority of only 17 and one of the weakest front benches I've ever known, yet Corbyn can't land a single blow.

He goes from gaff to gaff, but refuses to bugger off and let someone capable take the reins.

As you say, it's utterly depressing.

[Bristolhibby]

Was all for him to start. Now come to realise that England (therefore the U.K.) has shifted right that people like Corbyn just are not even at the races anymore. He's a dinosaur and if we want a semi decent opposition then he must go.

The PLP is at the mercy of its membership, which is not in sync with the wider England.

J

[Hibbyradge]

"Typical of Corbyn's compassion and sense of decency that, when confronted by someone desperately struggling, he leapt to her aid . . ."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/jeremy-corbyns-critics-must-eat-words-even-useless-thought/

[Colr]

"Typical of Corbyn's compassion and sense of decency that, when confronted by someone desperately struggling, he leapt to her aid . . ."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/jeremy-corbyns-critics-must-eat-words-even-useless-thought/

Not a fan of the SNP but they are the only party holding the government tonaccount at the moment. They ARE the opposition.

Maybe it shows the extent to which Labour really needed the "Tartan Mafia" of the Blair years!

[Kavinho]

There is none...


(haven't read the thread)!

[snooky]

You couldn't make this up

http://www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/09/20/labour-loses-council-control-without-an-election/

:wtf:
A classic case of 'the operation was a success but the patient died'.

[snooky]

Not a fan of the SNP but they are the only party holding the government tonaccount at the moment. They ARE the opposition.

Maybe it shows the extent to which Labour really needed the "Tartan Mafia" of the Blair years!

The Labour Party all but abandoned their core voters in Scotland (and in England for that matter). The Scots have opted for Hobson's choice. Nick Clegg's treacherous act of jumping into bed with the Tories killed off any chance the Lib/dems ever had of picking up disillusioned Labourites in 'Scotlandshire'.

[Hibbyradge]

This New Statesman article informs us that Labour's poll ratings have always dropped from this stage of a parliament and that if history is repeated again, Labour may win as few as 150 seats.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/moment-when-labours-poll-rating-gets-lot-lot-worse

[snooky]

The future of the Labour Party

:tumble:

[ronaldo7]

Former Scottish Labour candidate moves to the SNP:greengrin

https://t.co/y75XxuYpXn

[Hibbyradge]

Former Scottish Labour candidate moves to the SNP:greengrin

https://t.co/y75XxuYpXn

I thought you didn't like "Red Tories".

All together now, sing, "Oh, Jamie Kerr, you used to be a Blairite, but you're alright now". :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I thought you didn't like "Red Tories".

All together now, sing, "Oh, Jamie Kerr, you used to be a Blairite, but you're alright now". :greengrin

The initiation ceremony will wash it all off. Especially the steam clean, and bleach mix. The de-brief will be a bit boring though, as they've not done much recently.:wink:

A tattoo of our "Dear Leader" (this one just for the other team), and he's ready to go.:greengrin

Red Tories is so last season. They're now the Anti European party.:wink:

Piece from twitter.

Events have moved so fast that our vocabulary hasn't quite caught up with them, and it's high time we updated the way we characterise certain political parties. *Scottish Labour, for example, should now quite properly be called an anti-European party - not in the sense of hating Germans or Italians, but in the more prosaic sense that they oppose our participation in European institutions. *There is no Labour proposal to reverse Brexit, and of course they dogmatically reject the only option that could keep Scotland in the EU after Brexit occurs. *They've gone all the way back to a position they last held in the 'longest suicide note in history' - their 1983 general election manifesto under Michael Foot. *They are separatists. *They want to build walls. *They think that what divides us from our European neighbours (ie. devotion to Blighty at all costs) is more important than what unites us.

[Hibbyradge]

The initiation ceremony will wash it all off. Especially the steam clean, and bleach mix. The de-brief will be a bit boring though, as they've not done much recently.:wink:

A tattoo of our "Dear Leader" (this one just for the other team), and he's ready to go.:greengrin

Red Tories is so last season. They're now the Anti European party.:wink:

Piece from twitter.

Events have moved so fast that our vocabulary hasn't quite caught up with them, and it's high time we updated the way we characterise certain political parties. *Scottish Labour, for example, should now quite properly be called an anti-European party - not in the sense of hating Germans or Italians, but in the more prosaic sense that they oppose our participation in European institutions. *There is no Labour proposal to reverse Brexit, and of course they dogmatically reject the only option that could keep Scotland in the EU after Brexit occurs. *They've gone all the way back to a position they last held in the 'longest suicide note in history' - their 1983 general election manifesto under Michael Foot. *They are separatists. *They want to build walls. *They think that what divides us from our European neighbours (ie. devotion to Blighty at all costs) is more important than what unites us.

It's spot on, as long as Corbyn is leader.

The pro-europeans in the LP have no voice.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's an unanswerable case for Corbyn to go immediately from the Editor of the 'New Statesman'. There's a brilliant cinematic reference to a scene in 'LA Confidential', which goes someway towards providing an explanation as to why the Corbynistas fail to see what is blindingly obvious to the vast majority of the citizens of the electorate!

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/stench-decay-and-failure-coming-labour-party-now-overwhelming

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Here's an unanswerable case for Corbyn to go immediately from the Editor of the 'New Statesman'. There's a brilliant cinematic reference to a scene in 'LA Confidential', which goes someway towards providing an explanation as to why the Corbynistas fail to see what is blindingly obvious to the vast majority of the citizens of the electorate!

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/stench-decay-and-failure-coming-labour-party-now-overwhelming

Good article.

I would tale issue with the comment at the start about who will speak for liberal Britain. I dont think the left is liberal, although i suppose it depends on your definitions.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's spot on, as long as Corbyn is leader.

The pro-europeans in the LP have no voice.

Was thinking about this the othet day.

If (a big if, i realise) at the next election a party, say the lib dems, stood on a 'pro-EU' stance (leaving aside the detail of that), how would they do.

Should Labour be taking that view, as a major policy to try and get it back in the game (it prob needs to do somethong big?)

Also, what do thr labourites think is the reason for Corbyn's ambivalence to Europe?

[High-On-Hibs]

I'll stand by what i've said before. Corbyn himself is not the problem with the Labour Party. It's not Corbyns policies that are causing Labour to lose support, it is the constant internal party divisions being stirred up by the right wing of the Labour Party who would much rather the Conservatives won the next election, than Labour with Corbyn as leader.

It's so painstakingly obvious that those not getting it are choosing not to get it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'll stand by what i've said before. Corbyn himself is not the problem with the Labour Party. It's not Corbyns policies that are causing Labour to lose support, it is the constant internal party divisions being stirred up by the right wing of the Labour Party who would much rather the Conservatives won the next election, than Labour with Corbyn as leader.

It's so painstakingly obvious that those not getting it are choosing not to get it.

I blame trotsky!

[heretoday]

Not a fan of the SNP but they are the only party holding the government tonaccount at the moment. They ARE the opposition.

Maybe it shows the extent to which Labour really needed the "Tartan Mafia" of the Blair years!

Well that's how things are at the moment. Not to say that a charismatic leader won't come along and galvanise Labour in the future.

I certainly don't think it's a reason to cut and run for independence.

[Colr]

Well that's how things are at the moment. Not to say that a charismatic leader won't come along and galvanise Labour in the future.

I certainly don't think it's a reason to cut and run for independence.

The strong showing from Emmanuel Macron in trhe French elections might show the way to a left leaning candidate with broader appeal than the current narrow, if well meaning, clique.

[Peevemor]

The strong showing from Emmanuel Macron in trhe French elections might show the way to a left leaning candidate with broader appeal than the current narrow, if well meaning, clique.

I don't understand the Macron thing. He was polling high before he'd even hinted at any policy. He was part of the PS (French labour equivalent) government, but chose to set out on his own for the presidential election. He's standing against Benoît Hamon, the PS candidate and has been endorsed by a few PS big hitters, meaning that Hamon has no chance.

Macron makes out that he's the people's candidate but that's bull. He's centrist at best (definitely not left), his background is strange (it's suspected that he's lied about his education but he's the MSM's darling so that's been played down). His rock chick geriatric wife is upper management with LVMH and I don't think he has any idea of the everyday life of the ordinary voter.

[Hibbyradge]

I'll stand by what i've said before. Corbyn himself is not the problem with the Labour Party. It's not Corbyns policies that are causing Labour to lose support, it is the constant internal party divisions being stirred up by the right wing of the Labour Party who would much rather the Conservatives won the next election, than Labour with Corbyn as leader.

It's so painstakingly obvious that those not getting it are choosing not to get it.

You are 100% wrong on this.

The Corbynistas don't care that Labour is unelectable under Corbyn. They think that the moderates in the party are no better than the Tories, so "we might as well have the real ones ".

All the polls give Corbyn the lowest ever personal approval rating, and Labour supporters themselves think May would make a better PM.

Regardless of his history or his views, which are despised by the vast majority of the electorate, he just makes gaff after gaff. He is relentlessly incompetent.

No amount of unity could get that duffer elected.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.pollingdigest.com/home/2017/4/4/corbyns-labour-is-much-less-popular-with-working-class-voters-than-blairs-labour

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.pollingdigest.com/home/2017/4/4/corbyns-labour-is-much-less-popular-with-working-class-voters-than-blairs-labour

Interesting.

It's a point I've made before. I often find those on the left who are most firm and preaching in their beliefs are the furthest removed from the mindset of those they claim to be speaking for.

[Jack]

You are 100% wrong on this.

The Corbynistas don't care that Labour is unelectable under Corbyn. They think that the moderates in the party are no better than the Tories, so "we might as well have the real ones ".

All the polls give Corbyn the lowest ever personal approval rating, and Labour supporters themselves think May would make a better PM.

Regardless of his history or his views, which are despised by the vast majority of the electorate, he just makes gaff after gaff. He is relentlessly incompetent.

No amount of unity could get that duffer elected.

It's a real issue. And a crime that Labour cannot mount even a reasonable opposition at the time when the Torys lurch from crisis to crisis in Westminster chambers, the Westminster regulatory authorities and the law courts.

[Colr]

Interesting.

It's a point I've made before. I often find those on the left who are most firm and preaching in their beliefs are the furthest removed from the mindset of those they claim to be speaking for.

...and the first to call Blair for betraying the party when he was more in tune with their aspirations than they are.

[Colr]

Worth a read

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/11/1997-labour-new-dawn-blair-legacy

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

...and the first to call Blair for betraying the party when he was more in tune with their aspirations than they are.

Agree with this - rhe whole Blair thing was madness.

But highlights the left (or elements of it) for what they are - textbook intellectuals that prize ideological purity over reality.

I also think many on the left prefer to preach from the sidelines because then they cant be proved wrong, amd they dont have to make the tough choices.

They should split, the sensible wing should form a new party with the libs, maybe even attract a few of the centre ground tories, amd leave the loonies to eternally preach on high streets on saturday mornings.

[Hibbyradge]

They should split, the sensible wing should form a new party with the libs, maybe even attract a few of the centre ground tories, amd leave the loonies to eternally preach on high streets on saturday mornings.

Unfortunately, that would leave the entire infrastructure, estate and financial assets in their hands which is exactly what a lot of them would like.

Remember the high esteem in which John McDonnell holds the Labour Party . . .

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/72807/john-mcdonnell-says-labour-membership-tactic

[G B Young]

Len McCluskey on Tuesday morning after the launch of the Labour Party manifesto (and having attended the meeting where the proposals were agreed):

"I don't see Labour winning," and adding that retaining 200 seats (a loss of 30) would represent "a successful campaign".

Cut to this morning and Len says: "I'm now full of optimism that Labour can win".

Did he get a knock on the head during that tumble he took down the steps last week?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Unfortunately, that would leave the entire infrastructure, estate and financial assets in their hands which is exactly what a lot of them would like.

Remember the high esteem in which John McDonnell holds the Labour Party . . .

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/72807/john-mcdonnell-says-labour-membership-tactic

Yeah, that would be difficult and i dont underestimate the emotional pull of labour and its history etc

I just dont see the alternative, especially if Corbyn suvives this election.

Blair and some of his chums could help with funding amd donations surely?

Plus, are they not quite indebted?

[High-On-Hibs]

Yeah, that would be difficult and i dont underestimate the emotional pull of labour and its history etc

I just dont see the alternative, especially if Corbyn suvives this election.

Blair and some of his chums could help with funding amd donations surely?

Plus, are they not quite indebted?

Former shadow minister Angela Smith said: “It is quite clear from the comments he is broadly following an entryist Trotskyist agenda which is incompatible with Labour values.”

Is it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Former shadow minister Angela Smith said: “It is quite clear from the comments he is broadly following an entryist Trotskyist agenda which is incompatible with Labour values.”

Is it?

Im no socialist, and so my opinion probably isnt worth as much as others on here, but as a student amd observer of politics, i would say Labour values, while always being socialist in the broadest, most general sense of the word, are to be a party that has evolved with the society it wants to represent.

Mass socialism of the early part of the 20th century is dead in the west, and for good reason. Trotsky was very much a part of one of the main reasons why.

Labour evolved with society, and embraced a social democracy under New Labour that was both popular and successful. Was it socialism? Absolutely not. Because socialism as people lile Corbyn et al imagine it, is dead.

Those clinging on to its corpse and trying to revive it are like religious types harking back to a bygone age of piety. And it is ironic, that these so called progressives are actually the most regressive force in modern British politics.

So no, i dont believe that trotskyism, whatever theoretical split hair branch of socialist theory that represents, is anymore part of the modern labour party, or more importantly the future labour party, than mass industrialised workers or general strikes.

[lucky]

The manifesto from Labour reflects the Labour Party that I always wanted except replacing trident and as such it reflective of Labour values

[pacoluna]

The manifesto from Labour reflects the Labour Party that I always wanted except replacing trident and as such it reflective of Labour values

So you agree with many of the SNPs policies then, except from the constitutional debate.

[Colr]

The manifesto from Labour reflects the Labour Party that I always wanted except replacing trident and as such it reflective of Labour values

To get into power Labour needs broad appeal.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So you agree with many of the SNPs policies then, except from the constitutional debate.

Can we not turn this thread into another discussion about the SNP - there are other threads for that

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

To get into power Labour needs broad appeal.

Agree - realistically, it needs to be winning over non traditional, non-core voters.

[JimBHibees]

Im no socialist, and so my opinion probably isnt worth as much as others on here, but as a student amd observer of politics, i would say Labour values, while always being socialist in the broadest, most general sense of the word, are to be a party that has evolved with the society it wants to represent.

Mass socialism of the early part of the 20th century is dead in the west, and for good reason. Trotsky was very much a part of one of the main reasons why.

Labour evolved with society, and embraced a social democracy under New Labour that was both popular and successful. Was it socialism? Absolutely not. Because socialism as people lile Corbyn et al imagine it, is dead.

Those clinging on to its corpse and trying to revive it are like religious types harking back to a bygone age of piety. And it is ironic, that these so called progressives are actually the most regressive force in modern British politics.

So no, i dont believe that trotskyism, whatever theoretical split hair branch of socialist theory that represents, is anymore part of the modern labour party, or more importantly the future labour party, than mass industrialised workers or general strikes.

You work for the Tories dont you?

[lucky]

So you agree with many of the SNPs policies then, except from the constitutional debate.

I don't see many of the SNP policies in the document but as I've said before the constitution is not the be all and end all for me. If the economic argument was decent and questions around currency, defence, employment law and anti trade union laws were answered I'd consider a Yes vote in any future referendum. But I would never vote Tory over SNP under any circumstances

[JeMeSouviens]

To get into power Labour needs broad appeal.

The big problem with trying to gauge the appeal of these policies is they are being presented by a party that has redefined the word shambolic and a leader universally acknowledged as hopeless.

If Labour had a charismatic individual with genuine leadership qualities, no backstory of several decades of generally awkward student style politics and a united, well organised party behind them, then we might be able to judge if the electorate could be persuaded to vote for fairly moderate socialism.

This Labour party and leadership could have the best policy programme possible: almost nobody thinks they'd make even a halfway decent stab at implementing it. And nobody thinks they're suitable to be entrusted with all the incoming events they'd have to deal with running a country.

This is pretty tragic as heavy defeat is inevitable and when they get that nailed on humping, they will be consigning all these policies to the dustbin alongside them. Any babies will be well and truly gone with the bathwater. Cheerio to any hope of even a moderately left agenda in the UK for decades to come.

[Stranraer]

Scottish Labour look to be doomed. Kezia Dugdale has absolutely no chance of winning.

As for Labour in England, if Chuka Umunna takes over as leader I think they have a real chance of challenging the Conservatives in 5 years time but if the far left of the party elect another socialist leader they will have no chance of beating May.

New Labour needs to be resurrected in England for them to have a chance of winning.

[lucky]

Scottish Labour look to be doomed. Kezia Dugdale has absolutely no chance of winning.

As for Labour in England, if Chuka Umunna takes over as leader I think they have a real chance of challenging the Conservatives in 5 years time but if the far left of the party elect another socialist leader they will have no chance of beating May.

New Labour needs to be resurrected in England for them to have a chance of winning.

New Labour is dead and Labour has returned to its roots. It's time Blairites accepted that their time has gone. Politics should be about policies not personalities. I expect Kez to lead SLP into the next Scottish election

[Pretty Boy]

To get into power Labour needs broad appeal.

Indeed.

In the last 2 or 3 years Labour have condemned themselves to a generation in opposition and the country to Tory rule.

[High-On-Hibs]

To get into power Labour needs broad appeal.

I've always believed that a party should stick to their core values and try and influence the views of the electorate to see things their way, rather than changing their own principles to fit that of the electorate.

If every party changed their principles to fit that of the electorate, we'd be as well just having a one party state with no opposition.

[Colr]

Agree - realistically, it needs to be winning over non traditional, non-core voters.

Kind of like the Tory party are doing, and New Labour did before that and Thatcher before that. You can't do anything but protest from opposition. In fact Corbyn did nothing but protest when he was in government!

[Colr]

I've always believed that a party should stick to their core values and try and influence the views of the electorate to see things their way, rather than changing their own principles to fit that of the electorate.

If every party changed their principles to fit that of the electorate, we'd be as well just having a one party state with no opposition.

How patronising!

[High-On-Hibs]

How patronising!

Good response, you really addressed the point I was making. Or perhaps you know yourself that what I say is true, don't want to admit it and have no way of addressing it because you know that it's true?

[RyeSloan]

Good response, you really addressed the point I was making. Or perhaps you know yourself that what I say is true, don't want to admit it and have no way of addressing it because you know that it's true?

It's certainly true that you believe it but that's not to say what you believe is true..

[Pretty Boy]

I've always believed that a party should stick to their core values and try and influence the views of the electorate to see things their way, rather than changing their own principles to fit that of the electorate.

If every party changed their principles to fit that of the electorate, we'd be as well just having a one party state with no opposition.

The Labour Party has always been an evolving entity. The party of Bevan was a very different one from that of Attlee which in turn differed from that of Benn and Foot and so on. New Labour was just another stage in that morphosis.

The constant pining for 'core values' is tiresome. Labour, or any party, changes over time. The Conservative manifesto released this week had phrases in it that would have had Thatcher scratching her head for example. To be relevant a party has to adapt to the society it lives in, the SNP have done so with great success in recent years and a part of that has been shifting their social and economic stance dramatically.

Corbyn, Abott, McDonnell et al are stuck in a time warp and their performance is reflective of that.

[stantonhibby]

The Labour Party has always been an evolving entity. The party of Bevan was a very different one from that of Attlee which in turn differed from that of Benn and Foot and so on. New Labour was just another stage in that morphosis.

The constant pining for 'core values' is tiresome. Labour, or any party, changes over time. The Conservative manifesto released this week had phrases in it that would have had Thatcher scratching her head for example. To be relevant a party has to adapt to the society it lives in, the SNP have done so with great success in recent years and a part of that has been shifting their social and economic stance dramatically.

Corbyn, Abott, McDonnell et al are stuck in a time warp and their performance is reflective of that.


Far too sensible a post.

[lucky]

The Labour Party has always been an evolving entity. The party of Bevan was a very different one from that of Attlee which in turn differed from that of Benn and Foot and so on. New Labour was just another stage in that morphosis.

The constant pining for 'core values' is tiresome. Labour, or any party, changes over time. The Conservative manifesto released this week had phrases in it that would have had Thatcher scratching her head for example. To be relevant a party has to adapt to the society it lives in, the SNP have done so with great success in recent years and a part of that has been shifting their social and economic stance dramatically.

Corbyn, Abott, McDonnell et al are stuck in a time warp and their performance is reflective of that.

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

[Pretty Boy]

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved
I've criticised every single one of those listed across the forum. This thread is specifically about Labour hence my target within it.

I'd happily tear apart almost everyone at the forefront of all the major parties currently. There is a complete talent vacuum at Westminster.

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[stantonhibby]

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

I think that makes​ it all the more galling that the Tories aren't up to much but Labour can barely lay a glove on them. Corbyn, McDonnell & Abbott together with the names you mention has to be the most uninspiring bunch of senior politicians ever.

[Mr Grieves]

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

Unfortunately, it shows where we are just now. If Labour had a more personable leader, with that manifesto and campaign, they'd be destroying the Tories.

[JimBHibees]

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

Which makes even less sense for Corbin to pass up the leader debate. The media are horrifically right wing at present and he had watching millions as a platform yet choose not to go on. If he was serious he would have been on there highlighting May not being present. Incredible own goal IMO.

[Colr]

Unfortunately, it shows where we are just now. If Labour had a more personable leader, with that manifesto and campaign, they'd be destroying the Tories.

I'm not convinced by all of the manifesto but you're defininately right that this Tory party are there for the taking. As a well known Labour figure said recently, Labour can win if it wants to.

[lucky]

Labour now up to 39% in England if Scotland comes onboard polls would level. Clearly the positive message is getting through. Corbyn could pull off yet another stunning victory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Labour now up to 39% in England if Scotland comes onboard polls would level. Clearly the positive message is getting through. Corbyn could pull off yet another stunning victory

It would certainly be stunning!

Still cant see it though, but then we all thought the same about trump!

[Pretty Boy]

The last seats predictions based on polling that had Labour on 34% had them taking between 177 and 190 seats. Even allowing for a comeback to rival Lazarus in Scotland that would leave just a bit of a deficit.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Labour now up to 39% in England if Scotland comes onboard polls would level. Clearly the positive message is getting through. Corbyn could pull off yet another stunning victory

Source?

Not sure what relevance Scotland has. The way Scotland votes very rarely has an impact on who wins an election.

[steakbake]

Labour now up to 39% in England if Scotland comes onboard polls would level. Clearly the positive message is getting through. Corbyn could pull off yet another stunning victory

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

If the opposite happens, it'll be business as usual for me.

[Just Alf]

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

If the opposite happens, it'll be business as usual for me.
This is fairly close to my own thoughts. I am a bit keener on the indepence side of things tho!

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[steakbake]

This is fairly close to my own thoughts. I am a bit keener on the indepence side of things tho!

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I'm still a stick on yes, but I'm more happy to see how Corbyn goes than to feel the cold hard effects of the double-whammy of Brexit and the Tories.

So there we go, Lucky - two people in a short space of time who'd be willing to give Labour a go. Can you ask them to tone down the Alan Roden influence?

[danhibees1875]

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

If the opposite happens, it'll be business as usual for me.

That's pretty much bang on where I am.

I'm also curious as to what the Scottish labour manifesto will hold. Is there a chance that many policies will be omitted or altered from the labour manifesto of last week?

I also find myself agreeing with you that a progressive UK government making decisions I agree with, or at least couldn't feasibly see a different outcome at hollyrood, would dampen my appetite for independence. Conversely, if this is the most progressive manifesto a major party can put forward and it's overwhelmingly rejected in favour of a poorly constructed conservative manifesto focused on tax breaks for the wealthy and cutting support to kids and the elderly then I'm not sure where that leaves us...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

These last few posts are interesting, and would suggest that the SNP's biggest threat (at least to some of its supppeters on here) would be a labour revival.

Ironic how symbiotic the SNP amd Tory relationship is becoming.

[Colr]

These last few posts are interesting, and would suggest that the SNP's biggest threat (at least to some of its supppeters on here) would be a labour revival.

Ironic how symbiotic the SNP amd Tory relationship is becoming.

MsDonnell and Gardiner did quite well on TV this morning.

[Just Alf]

These last few posts are interesting, and would suggest that the SNP's biggest threat (at least to some of its supppeters on here) would be a labour revival.

Ironic how symbiotic the SNP amd Tory relationship is becoming.

I've said it before.... There's many SNP voters that would see SNP well behind Labour, Tory or Green as their 1st choice when voting in an iScotland Holyrood election.

After a probably honeymoon victory in the 1st election for SNP I could easily see Labour in power, I also think a Scottish flavour of Tories will have a proper revival and could form a government at some time as well (they'd have finally broken the link with Thatcher). It's one of the reasons I get a wee bit (:wink:) fed up when folks go on about SNP performance as a reason to vote against independence, it's not really related.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've said it before.... There's many SNP voters that would see SNP well behind Labour, Tory or Green as their 1st choice when voting in an iScotland Holyrood election.

After a probably honeymoon victory in the 1st election for SNP I could easily see Labour in power, I also think a Scottish flavour of Tories will have a proper revival and could form a government at some time as well (they'd have finally broken the link with Thatcher). It's one of the reasons I get a wee bit (:wink:) fed up when folks go on about SNP performance as a reason to vote against independence, it's not really related.

I agree, and your point about snp performance is correct imo. But when one party becomes so closely identified with it, its hard to separate the two.

To keep this thread on topic though, i find the lab situation interesting, as it could be that if corbyn does well enough, he can firm up his grip, without winning, which would be the worst outcome for the centreist wing of the lab party.

[Moulin Yarns]

The future of the Scottish Labour Party?

Well, when you put out banners like this, you have to wonder!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAS9HsSXcAE7KS1.jpg


A HUGE banner saying Vote Conservative. Only when you read the small print...

[Just Alf]

I agree, and your point about snp performance is correct imo. But when one party becomes so closely identified with it, its hard to separate the two.

To keep this thread on topic though, i find the lab situation interesting, as it could be that if corbyn does well enough, he can firm up his grip, without winning, which would be the worst outcome for the centreist wing of the lab party.

I WAS trying to keep it on topic... Honest!

In a long winded way I was trying to say that if Scottish Labour was running on an independence ticket they'd grab a good many seats off the SNP :agree:

[RyeSloan]

The future of the Scottish Labour Party?

Well, when you put out banners like this, you have to wonder!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAS9HsSXcAE7KS1.jpg


A HUGE banner saying Vote Conservative. Only when you read the small print...

That's a genius poster...both NS and the Conservatives given more prominence than the message being conveyed (or not as the case maybe!) dear oh dear.

[lucky]

That's pretty much bang on where I am.

I'm also curious as to what the Scottish labour manifesto will hold. Is there a chance that many policies will be omitted or altered from the labour manifesto of last week?

I also find myself agreeing with you that a progressive UK government making decisions I agree with, or at least couldn't feasibly see a different outcome at hollyrood, would dampen my appetite for independence. Conversely, if this is the most progressive manifesto a major party can put forward and it's overwhelmingly rejected in favour of a poorly constructed conservative manifesto focused on tax breaks for the wealthy and cutting support to kids and the elderly then I'm not sure where that leaves us...

It's very similar but with a Scottish theme. It will contain renewal of Trident but does not say when.

[lucky]

I WAS trying to keep it on topic... Honest!

In a long winded way I was trying to say that if Scottish Labour was running on an independence ticket they'd grab a good many seats off the SNP :agree:

Is there any real evidence off this? Also it would costs votes as well. I'm not sure a Labour uturn on independence is a vote winner for Labour

[JimBHibees]

The future of the Scottish Labour Party?

Well, when you put out banners like this, you have to wonder!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAS9HsSXcAE7KS1.jpg


A HUGE banner saying Vote Conservative. Only when you read the small print...

Pretty laughable given the Aberdeen council.

[Just Alf]

Is there any real evidence off this? Also it would costs votes as well. I'm not sure a Labour uturn on independence is a vote winner for Labour

Evidence? not really to be honest.

Its based on my own position and many that I've spoken too, its a mixture of mates in pubs after games, at work etc... SNP still seem to be ahead but easily 50% maybe a bit more would lean towards Labour, Tories & Green (in that order with Labour being the most significant). Just my opinion mind! but I do think there's something in it.. is it enough though??

[lucky]

Evidence? not really to be honest.

Its based on my own position and many that I've spoken too, its a mixture of mates in pubs after games, at work etc... SNP still seem to be ahead but easily 50% maybe a bit more would lean towards Labour, Tories & Green (in that order with Labour being the most significant). Just my opinion mind! but I do think there's something in it.. is it enough though??

Fair enough. I'm just not convinced that a change of policy would be a vote winner across the U.K. If independence ever happens then we could see a complete change in politics in Scotland but probably not for at least one term after the start.

[Hibrandenburg]

I WAS trying to keep it on topic... Honest!

In a long winded way I was trying to say that if Scottish Labour was running on an independence ticket they'd grab a good many seats off the SNP :agree:

I couldn't trust them not to go back on that, especially if the votes won in Scotland were essential to them holding power in Westminster.

[Just Alf]

Fair enough. I'm just not convinced that a change of policy would be a vote winner across the U.K. If independence ever happens then we could see a complete change in politics in Scotland but probably not for at least one term after the start.
Yup. 100% agree with that.

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[Just Alf]

I couldn't trust them not to go back on that, especially if the votes won in Scotland were essential to them holding power in Westminster.
Indeed... Who trusts politicians, of whatever flavour, these days!

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[JeMeSouviens]

I couldn't trust them not to go back on that, especially if the votes won in Scotland were essential to them holding power in Westminster.

They'd have to formally separate from UK lab.

[One Day Soon]

I've criticised every single one of those listed across the forum. This thread is specifically about Labour hence my target within it.

I'd happily tear apart almost everyone at the forefront of all the major parties currently. There is a complete talent vacuum at Westminster.

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Could not agree more - and it applies to Holyrood too. And to the US. The leaders are without exception devoid of both personality or any genuinely radical ideas that actually address contemporary problems.

They are uninspiring but I think that is mainly because they don't have much to say. It has been apparent since 2008 that politics needed to change to meet global and domestic challenges but the parties and people within them have just remained fossilised in their old certainties which surprise, surprise, aren't certainties and don't work anymore.

[High-On-Hibs]

Labour now only trailing 5% behind the Conservatives in latest polls. The blairites who actively campaigned against Corbyn may be left with egg on their face.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-lead-cut-to-five-points-as-corbyn-closes-in-on-may-rgmckfnpp

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Labour now only trailing 5% behind the Conservatives in latest polls. The blairites who actively campaigned against Corbyn may be left with egg on their face.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-lead-cut-to-five-points-as-corbyn-closes-in-on-may-rgmckfnpp

It would go down as one of the greatest political mis-steps in modern history if she ended up with a majority of 2!

[lucky]

The Tories majority would increase with the support of the Ulster Unionists

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Tories majority would increase with the support of the Ulster Unionists

That certainly wouldnt help to free her from the shackles of her own right wing!!

[lucky]

That certainly wouldnt help to free her from the shackles of her own right wing!!

Very true but as the polls close the dirt will start to fly. Guaranteed if it's looking close the Tories will use 2015 tactics of Corbyn being under the control of the SNP. From my perspective I hope the Nats don't state publicly about a progressive coalition as it will damage any chance of it happening. They should be saying privately that they'll support Corbyn for PM with guaranteed second referendum

[G B Young]

Corbyn's decision to try and make political capital out of the Manchester bombing so soon after the event will be seen as crass by many, but compared to this kind of talk from a so-called representative of Labour Corbyn's comments are moderate. This is beyond the pale:

BREAKING Labour suspends local vice-chairman over Manchester comments

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/96/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2015/10/28/98daf50d-92ef-435a-9ba1-3955e30e33ca.jpg

BBC Surrey

Labour has suspended one of its vice-chairmen in Surrey after he suggested the government could have been behind the Manchester bombing.
Daniel Ewen - vice-chair in Esher and Walton - wrote on Facebook: "I would not put it past our establishment, our rightwing government or Theresa May to blow up their own people in order to continue to secure power for themselves".
The Labour party has confirmed to BBC Surrey that Mr Ewen has since been suspended.

[RyeSloan]

Corbyn's decision to try and make political capital out of the Manchester bombing so soon after the event will be seen as crass by many, but compared to this kind of talk from a so-called representative of Labour Corbyn's comments are moderate. This is beyond the pale:

BREAKING Labour suspends local vice-chairman over Manchester comments

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/96/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2015/10/28/98daf50d-92ef-435a-9ba1-3955e30e33ca.jpg

BBC Surrey

Labour has suspended one of its vice-chairmen in Surrey after he suggested the government could have been behind the Manchester bombing.
Daniel Ewen - vice-chair in Esher and Walton - wrote on Facebook: "I would not put it past our establishment, our rightwing government or Theresa May to blow up their own people in order to continue to secure power for themselves".
The Labour party has confirmed to BBC Surrey that Mr Ewen has since been suspended.

Really? What goes on in people's heads? Not only to think such things but for someone serving in public office to then post it on social media! What a disgusting troll.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Tories majority would increase with the support of the Ulster Unionists

As could both Labour and the Tories increase their vote from Scottish Unionists if they play the independence card. They did it during the council elections and are doing now in the General Election campaign.

[Betty Boop]

Great speech from Jezza. :top marks

[snooky]

Could not agree more - and it applies to Holyrood too. And to the US. The leaders are without exception devoid of both personality or any genuinely radical ideas that actually address contemporary problems.

They are uninspiring but I think that is mainly because they don't have much to say. It has been apparent since 2008 that politics needed to change to meet global and domestic challenges but the parties and people within them have just remained fossilised in their old certainties which surprise, surprise, aren't certainties and don't work anymore.

Amazing that all sides of the political spectrum on Hibsnet will probably totally agree with this post and PB's post. Well I do, for one

[G B Young]

Really? What goes on in people's heads? Not only to think such things but for someone serving in public office to then post it on social media! What a disgusting troll.

Don't know what the dismissal process is, but an instant sacking rather than suspension would seem appropriate.

[snooky]

The future of the Scottish Labour Party?

Well, when you put out banners like this, you have to wonder!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAS9HsSXcAE7KS1.jpg


A HUGE banner saying Vote Conservative. Only when you read the small print...

That is the saddest campaign poster I have ever seen in my life. What it conveys to me is the total submission of a party on is knees.

[JeMeSouviens]

Really? What goes on in people's heads? Not only to think such things but for someone serving in public office to then post it on social media! What a disgusting troll.

He's not serving in public office, just an internal Lab role. They are probably 3 men and a dog in leafy Home Counties South. What a walloper. :rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

That is the saddest campaign poster I have never seen in my life. What it conveys to me is the total submission of a party on is knees.

For me, it's a reflection of the campaign thus far, at least up here.

SNP "stop the Tories"

Tories "stop the referendum"

Lib Dems "stop the Tories, and stop the referendum"

Labour "um...."

Nothing positive at all yet, sadly.

[RyeSloan]

He's not serving in public office, just an internal Lab role. They are probably 3 men and a dog in leafy Home Counties South. What a walloper. :rolleyes:

Ahh fair enough...but still a walloper as you say!

[G B Young]

Great speech from Jezza. :top marks

Ducks out of media questioning afterwards:

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor

Corbyn not taking questions from media after his speech because they're "phasing in" the national campaign. Worth remembering the next time Labour accuse Theresa May of running scared of questions.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=G B Young;5052789]Ducks out of media questioning afterwards:

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor

Corbyn not taking questions from media after his speech because they're "phasing in" the national campaign. Worth remembering the next time Labour accuse Theresa May of running scared of questions.[/QUOTE



I wouldn't take questions from the Rat pack either. More interested in what he had to say about our ridiculous foreign policy, and cuts to vital public services.

[G B Young]

I wouldn't take questions from the Rat pack either. More interested in what he had to say about our ridiculous foreign policy, and cuts to vital public services.

The point is a fair one though. He can't accuse the PM of not being prepared to face questions when he won't do so himself. The reason he won't do so is because he knows he'll be accused of hypocrisy in calling for unity over Manchester while at the same time stoking up political division. I don't have much time for Tim Farron, but his point is one many will share at the end of a highly emotive week:

Tim Farron accuses Labour of putting 'politics before people'



Commenting on Jeremy Corbyn's forthcoming speech on British foreign policy, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said: "A few days ago, a young man built a bomb, walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children. Our children. Families are grieving. A community is in shock. Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."

[snooky]

The point is a fair one though. He can't accuse the PM of not being prepared to face questions when he won't do so himself. The reason he won't do so is because he knows he'll be accused of hypocrisy in calling for unity over Manchester while at the same time stoking up political division. I don't have much time for Tim Farron, but his point is one many will share at the end of a highly emotive week:

Tim Farron accuses Labour of putting 'politics before people'



Commenting on Jeremy Corbyn's forthcoming speech on British foreign policy, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said: "A few days ago, a young man built a bomb, walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children. Our children. Families are grieving. A community is in shock. Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."




Cynically speaking, one could argue that TF is doing exactly the same thing here.

(FWIW, I don't think he is. I'm just making a point).

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The point is a fair one though. He can't accuse the PM of not being prepared to face questions when he won't do so himself. The reason he won't do so is because he knows he'll be accused of hypocrisy in calling for unity over Manchester while at the same time stoking up political division. I don't have much time for Tim Farron, but his point is one many will share at the end of a highly emotive week:

Tim Farron accuses Labour of putting 'politics before people'



Commenting on Jeremy Corbyn's forthcoming speech on British foreign policy, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said: "A few days ago, a young man built a bomb, walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children. Our children. Families are grieving. A community is in shock. Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."




Ouch. He didn't miss eh...

[JeMeSouviens]

The point is a fair one though. He can't accuse the PM of not being prepared to face questions when he won't do so himself. The reason he won't do so is because he knows he'll be accused of hypocrisy in calling for unity over Manchester while at the same time stoking up political division. I don't have much time for Tim Farron, but his point is one many will share at the end of a highly emotive week:

Tim Farron accuses Labour of putting 'politics before people'



Commenting on Jeremy Corbyn's forthcoming speech on British foreign policy, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said: "A few days ago, a young man built a bomb, walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children. Our children. Families are grieving. A community is in shock. Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."




Drivel from Farron. Corbyn (and millions of others) believe that British foreign policy has contributed to a climate in which despicable attacks like this one become more likely. He has a duty to present his alternative before this election.

[G B Young]

Drivel from Farron. Corbyn (and millions of others) believe that British foreign policy has contributed to a climate in which despicable attacks like this one become more likely. He has a duty to present his alternative before this election.

I accept that, but for me it's the timing that jars. I imagine that in the wake of Manchester, many won't give a s**t about the election campaigns. I certainly don't much care and I'm not surprised Corbyn is being portrayed as disrespectful in what looks like an unseemly haste to get back to government bashing. Just my view, but next week would have been a more appropriate time to pick up again on the campaigning.

[JeMeSouviens]

I accept that, but for me it's the timing that jars. I imagine that in the wake of Manchester, many won't give a s**t about the election campaigns. I certainly don't much care and I'm not surprised Corbyn is being portrayed as disrespectful in what looks like an unseemly haste to get back to government bashing. Just my view, but next week would have been a more appropriate time to pick up again on the campaigning.

Fair enough ... but folk can take their own view on the timing without having Tim Farron telling them how disgraceful it is. I've been extremely disappointed in Farron. The Libs had a real chance to go for the Remoaner vote with Labour all over the place.

[danhibees1875]

"remoaner vote" - if intentional, is pretty funny :greengrin

As for Corbyn, I disagree with political point scoring over such tragic events but I'd question how much of it actually was that. As said above, he's presenting his alternative ahead of the vote. If he had waited for next week i doubt the backlash would have been any different.

[JimBHibees]

I accept that, but for me it's the timing that jars. I imagine that in the wake of Manchester, many won't give a s**t about the election campaigns. I certainly don't much care and I'm not surprised Corbyn is being portrayed as disrespectful in what looks like an unseemly haste to get back to government bashing. Just my view, but next week would have been a more appropriate time to pick up again on the campaigning.

UK foreign policy was every bid as bad under his own party so it can be seen as a general criticism rather than one against any party. Liberal guy is at it IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

I accept that, but for me it's the timing that jars. I imagine that in the wake of Manchester, many won't give a s**t about the election campaigns. I certainly don't much care and I'm not surprised Corbyn is being portrayed as disrespectful in what looks like an unseemly haste to get back to government bashing. Just my view, but next week would have been a more appropriate time to pick up again on the campaigning.

Was always going to happen,first to mention security was guaranteed to get a kicking. Which opens up the question if accusing him of playing politics with the tragedy isn't itself playing politics with the tragedy?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I dont mind him saying it, i think our politics would be all the better for takiglng a more nuanced, less reactive approach to discourse.

I just dont know what the point is, the link between little girls being blown up at a pop concert in Manchester and wars fought years ago 1000 of miles away just doesnt seem strong enough to be worth the hassle to me. Im not sure i even buy the link.

Ramzi Yousef tried to blow up the WTC in the early 90s, long before iraq. Its an unstable place, at least in part due to its geograhic location at the centre of the world. And islam has historically been an aggressive religion spread via conquest and genocide through that part of the world.

Bit fair play to him for grasping this particular nettle. If he is to lose the election, i hope its not because of this.

[High-On-Hibs]

Very true but as the polls close the dirt will start to fly. Guaranteed if it's looking close the Tories will use 2015 tactics of Corbyn being under the control of the SNP. From my perspective I hope the Nats don't state publicly about a progressive coalition as it will damage any chance of it happening. They should be saying privately that they'll support Corbyn for PM with guaranteed second referendum

Labour want the SNP to come out and say they won't prop up a Labour government, because they can scream foul and claim that the SNP want to keep the tories in government for their own political agenda.

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont mind him saying it, i think our politics would be all the better for takiglng a more nuanced, less reactive approach to discourse.

I just dont know what the point is, the link between little girls being blown up at a pop concert in Manchester and wars fought years ago 1000 of miles away just doesnt seem strong enough to be worth the hassle to me. Im not sure i even buy the link.

Ramzi Yousef tried to blow up the WTC in the early 90s, long before iraq. Its an unstable place, at least in part due to its geograhic location at the centre of the world. And islam has historically been an aggressive religion spread via conquest and genocide through that part of the world.

Bit fair play to him for grasping this particular nettle. If he is to lose the election, i hope its not because of this.

Is ISIS motivated by Western intervention? Not primarily.

Has the botched aftermath of Western intervention given ISIS the opportunity to grow? Yes

Has Western intervention been used as a propaganda tool to recruit/inspire the disaffected youth of Western Europe and the UK? Yes

[High-On-Hibs]

I just dont know what the point is, the link between little girls being blown up at a pop concert in Manchester and wars fought years ago 1000 of miles away just doesnt seem strong enough to be worth the hassle to me. Im not sure i even buy the link.

Wars fought years ago yes. The impact that people over there are still suffering now. The power vaccum that is created by overthrowing their governments have created the perfect recruitment agencies for ISIS. No need to worry about a lack of weapons, Theresa May and Donald Trump are on hand to provide all the ammunition and weaponry they need. Using the Saudis as the middle men of course.

As long as they keep raking in the profits from the global arms trade, whats a fews casualties here and there, eh? :fuming:

People should be furious, but they're not. We're told to feel sadness in place of anger by the very people who need to be held to account.

[Hibrandenburg]

I dont mind him saying it, i think our politics would be all the better for takiglng a more nuanced, less reactive approach to discourse.

I just dont know what the point is, the link between little girls being blown up at a pop concert in Manchester and wars fought years ago 1000 of miles away just doesnt seem strong enough to be worth the hassle to me. Im not sure i even buy the link.

Ramzi Yousef tried to blow up the WTC in the early 90s, long before iraq. Its an unstable place, at least in part due to its geograhic location at the centre of the world. And islam has historically been an aggressive religion spread via conquest and genocide through that part of the world.

Bit fair play to him for grasping this particular nettle. If he is to lose the election, i hope its not because of this.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq in particular were excellent propaganda for groups like Al Qaeda and convinced many Muslims that Bin Laden was right all along in his claim that there is a Western conspiracy to destroy Islam. Like the internment policy of the British government in NI the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq provided to be an excellent recruitment tool for the extremists.

[Just Alf]

"remoaner vote" - if intentional, is pretty funny :greengrin

As for Corbyn, I disagree with political point scoring over such tragic events but I'd question how much of it actually was that. As said above, he's presenting his alternative ahead of the vote. If he had waited for next week i doubt the backlash would have been any different.
This.... I thought the actual speech was quite good, the political accusation is a wee bit off IMHO, he pointedly did not accuse one particular government, Labour under Blair were also included as a result... What he was trying to do was to show how his Labour government would try to do things differently.

I also noticed Farron's quotes above are actually prior to the speech and as a result he's misfired. Won't stop the anti labour types using it as gospel though.

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[Just Alf]

UK foreign policy was every bid as bad under his own party so it can be seen as a general criticism rather than one against any party. Liberal guy is at it IMO.
Wished I'd read a wee bit further!

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[Moulin Yarns]

A lot of it stems from this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/khomeini_ayatollah.shtml

I visited Paris in 1979 after riots with a number of French police killed because of the overthrow of the shah and the formation of the first Islamic republic.


Edit. Wrong thread. Will move tomorrow morning when I get the computer

[snooky]

Wars thought years ago yes. The impact that people over there are still suffering now. The power vaccum that is created by overthrowing their governments have created the perfect recruitment agencies for ISIS. No need to worry about a lack of weapons, Theresa May and Donald Trump are on hand to provide all the ammunition and weaponry they need. Using the Saudis as the middle men of course.

As long as they keep raking in the profits from the global arms trade, whats a fews casualties here and there, eh? :fuming:

People should be furious, but they're not. We're told to feel sadness in place of anger by the very people who need to be held to account.

Between that and oil, you have the most controlling groups on the planet.
Back in the 60's, alternative energy ideas were bought up by the oil companies.
That was when my first suspicions of a global control conglomerate was hatched.

[G B Young]

Was always going to happen,first to mention security was guaranteed to get a kicking. Which opens up the question if accusing him of playing politics with the tragedy isn't itself playing politics with the tragedy?

Yes, that's kind of what I find demoralising about it. The fact that the political point scoring all kicks off again so quickly while the Manchester atrocity still casts such a long shadow over our country. Corbyn claims the quickfire return to campaigning is all about standing up for democracy but I think it's fair to speculate he was privately worried about losing some of the momentum Labour had built up pre-Monday. Sometimes I wish we could believe politicians when they claim to stand united over an issue which, when all's said and done, is more about humanity than politics.

[snooky]

Was always going to happen,first to mention security was guaranteed to get a kicking. Which opens up the question if accusing him of playing politics with the tragedy isn't itself playing politics with the tragedy?

:agree: Exactly the point I was trying to make in post #140.

[Just Alf]

Yes, that's kind of what I find demoralising about it. The fact that the political point scoring all kicks off again so quickly while the Manchester atrocity still casts such a long shadow over our country. Corbyn claims the quickfire return to campaigning is all about standing up for democracy but I think it's fair to speculate he was privately worried about losing some of the momentum Labour had built up pre-Monday. Sometimes I wish we could believe politicians when they claim to stand united over an issue which, when all's said and done, is more about humanity than politics.
BBC reported that the parties had all agreed that today was the restart of campaigning, its not really fair to pick Corbyn up on that issue. (there's probably plenty others mind!)


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[G B Young]

Fair enough ... but folk can take their own view on the timing without having Tim Farron telling them how disgraceful it is. I've been extremely disappointed in Farron. The Libs had a real chance to go for the Remoaner vote with Labour all over the place.

Agreed. The greater public exposure that an election brings has seen Fallon fall well short of the mark.

[RyeSloan]

Between that and oil, you have the most controlling groups on the planet.
Back in the 60's, alternative energy ideas were bought up by the oil companies.
That was when my first suspicions of a global control conglomerate was hatched.

Surely the oil companies buying them burying alternative energy ideas is an urban myth...

[snooky]

Surely the oil companies buying them burying alternative energy ideas is an urban myth...

Then maybe I'm mythtaken. Thorry :lips seal :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

A lot of it stems from this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/khomeini_ayatollah.shtml

I visited Paris in 1979 after riots with a number of French police killed because of the overthrow of the shah and the formation of the first Islamic republic.

You can go back as far as the crusades if you really want to but I think the source of most of today's problems lie with the aftermath of the Ottoman Empire. The Arabs were promised independence if they rose up and drove out the Turks, instead the west(mainly France and the UK) were determined to redraw the map in the middle east and North Africa and divide it into their own colonies. After these countries finally gained their independence they tended to evolve into militaristic style states because that is basically all they'd know from the colonial powers who'd governed them with a hard hand and tried to establish western sympathetic regimes controlling ethnic inhabitants that was diverse but more importantly had always been mortal enemy's prior to colonisation. It was a recipe for disaster and we still see the incompatibility today. If they'd been left to their own accord like Europe was then there would have been bloodshed on a massive scale but similarly it might have sorted itself out by now. Instead were now left with artificial sovereign states who are culturally incompatible.

[ballengeich]

Agreed. The greater public exposure that an election brings has seen Fallon fall well short of the mark.

May too. The UK currently has its least intellectually able PM since Alec Douglas Hume up to 1964. That statement will still be true after the election, regardless of which party wins.

[High-On-Hibs]

It's from the canary, so a lot of people probably won't even bother having a look. A bit like unionists when it comes to Wings Over Scotland. But the source doesn't make it any less informative. :aok:

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/26/uncomfortable-bbc-video-resurfaced-foreign-policy-debate-rages-video/

[Hibbyradge]

Was always going to happen,first to mention security was guaranteed to get a kicking. Which opens up the question if accusing him of playing politics with the tragedy isn't itself playing politics with the tragedy?

So if a politician says something which looks like they're using a tragedy to play politics, no-one can identify it as such in case they stand accused of the same thing?

:confused:

[snooky]

So if a politician says something which looks like they're using a tragedy to play politics, no-one can identify it as such in case they stand accused of the same thing?

:confused:

By attacking JC by name, Farron is leaving himself open to the same accusation as he is surely gaining political points, whether intentional or not.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's from the canary, so a lot of people probably won't even bother having a look. A bit like unionists when it comes to Wings Over Scotland. But the source doesn't make it any less informative. :aok:

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/26/uncomfortable-bbc-video-resurfaced-foreign-policy-debate-rages-video/

It's very difficult to have a proper debate about issues as emotive as terrorism. Everybody of course deplores the murder of civilians, particularly children; it's totally inhuman and unforgivable. But anybody who tries to go beyond condemnatory rhetoric and seeks to examine the reasons behind this madness is instantly accused of excusing terrorism and/or of disrespecting the dead. It's seems Jeremy Corbyn has fallen foul of this today. Yet, if we're to have a serious analysis, we need to get past hysteria and try to figure out all the causation issues and possible remedies. Stifling debate won't help anybody. We need to properly understand why this is happening if we're to tackle it; our country's role as aggressor (and yes as terrorist) in addition to our role as innocent victims.

I would also add that, perhaps one reason some are so keen to silence Corbyn on this issue because he was right about Iraq and Syria and they were wrong. Of course they don't want to discuss it.

[stantonhibby]

Watched Corbyn being interviewed by Andrew Neil......he definitely has weak points, his past support of the IRA in particular but overall he did quite well. Neil is a good interviewer I think.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Watched Corbyn being interviewed by Andrew Neil......he definitely has weak points, his past support of the IRA in particular but overall he did quite well. Neil is a good interviewer I think.

I will watch it later. Was Corbyn ever a supporter of the IRA, or is this a misrepresentation?

[marinello59]

I will watch it later. Was Corbyn ever a supporter of the IRA, or is this a misrepresentation?

He supported peace in Northern Ireland and favoured dialogue. The rest is spin from his opponents.

[stantonhibby]

He supported peace in Northern Ireland and favoured dialogue. The rest is spin from his opponents.

I've no doubt he supported peace but not sure about the rest all being spin. Inviting members of the IRA to the Commons weeks after the Brighton bombing doesn't sit well. Never on record condemning them either.... (according to Neil tonight anyway)

[Hiber-nation]

Watched Corbyn being interviewed by Andrew Neil......he definitely has weak points, his past support of the IRA in particular but overall he did quite well. Neil is a good interviewer I think.

I used to hate Andrew Neil but he is the best interviewer by far now. Don't know who's changed, him or me....although I didn't see his interview with Corbyn.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I used to hate Andrew Neil but he is the best interviewer by far now. Don't know who's changed, him or me....although I didn't see his interview with Corbyn.

Neil is good at putting politicians on the spot. I thought Corbyn did okay but should have been more straightforward on the Trident question, which would have made him look less defensive. Just say he personally opposes it, but it's a democratic party and that was the decision made at conference. He's an elected leader, not a dictator. End of conversation.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've no doubt he supported peace but not sure about the rest all being spin. Inviting members of the IRA to the Commons weeks after the Brighton bombing doesn't sit well. Never on record condemning them either.... (according to Neil tonight anyway)

I do find it funny that we dont mind actual members of the IRA being in office in this country, but baulk at tge idea of a backbemch MP (at the time) not condemning them.

That said, its never gonna play well, but i do wonder if its a card that has already been played enough to mitigate its effects?

[Hibbyradge]

Another view.

https://capx.co/want-to-know-why-the-terrorists-hate-us-jeremy-just-ask-them/?omhide=true

[Hibrandenburg]

Another view.

https://capx.co/want-to-know-why-the-terrorists-hate-us-jeremy-just-ask-them/?omhide=true

Or maybe their leadership is just happy to be big knobs and will say anything to encourage recruitment from the angry masses and ensure their status as leaders and all the perks that go with that continue. A bit like our politicians or TV evangelists.

[Just Alf]

I've no doubt he supported peace but not sure about the rest all being spin. Inviting members of the IRA to the Commons weeks after the Brighton bombing doesn't sit well. Never on record condemning them either.... (according to Neil tonight anyway)
I listened to his interview on radio last Friday (five live?) and he defo condemned those that committed atrocities when asked, he also said that he also condemned the unionists who did similar as well, he then went on to state that the only way to get it to end was by talking which was what he was attempting to do.

Edit... Maybe I should add he was obviously 100% correct as that was exactly how things began to return to some form of normalcy, which in turn makes those trying to score political points from it look a bit out of touch?
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[steakbake]

I do find it funny that we dont mind actual members of the IRA being in office in this country, but baulk at tge idea of a backbemch MP (at the time) not condemning them.

That said, its never gonna play well, but i do wonder if its a card that has already been played enough to mitigate its effects?

It does now look ridiculous. An overplayed card.

[High-On-Hibs]

I've no doubt he supported peace but not sure about the rest all being spin. Inviting members of the IRA to the Commons weeks after the Brighton bombing doesn't sit well. Never on record condemning them either.... (according to Neil tonight anyway)

Plenty of UK politicians had meetings and negotiations with the IRA, including Thatcher herself. Corbyn was no different. He was just trying to do what he believed was right for everybody. I think it's abhorrent that this is being dug up by the neoliberal supporting media and being stirred up as an attack against the man. He has never once spoke in support of a single IRA attack, but the media would have you believe that he has.

[Dashing Bob S]

Corbyn has gone from worst to best thing that has happened to the Labour Party. He let the media punch itself out with all the derision of him, to the extent that the public are now bored with it, and are actually looking favorably at a sensible and pragmatic Labour manifesto that addresses England's needs, rather than more tired nonsense that keeps lining the pockets of elites. He now seems far more impressive a politician than May, who is coming across as a mess.

Pity Dugdale has been so unimpressive, half hearted and indeed oppositional to him, and therefore probably blown a potential route for Labour back into Scotlands affections. A Lab-SNP coalition of good sense is now an outside possibility to the chaos we are having with the Conservatives, who really are increasingly being perceived (justly) as utterly useless.

[HiBremian]

I've no doubt he supported peace but not sure about the rest all being spin. Inviting members of the IRA to the Commons weeks after the Brighton bombing doesn't sit well. Never on record condemning them either.... (according to Neil tonight anyway)

Spin is easily detected. The opening sentence of the BBC's report is just that. If you condemn violence by both the IRA and unionists, then of course you are not "singling out" the IRA. So the BBC's take? "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to single out the IRA for condemnation when pressed over his past campaigning activities."

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-39992892


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[lucky]

Corbyn speaking tomorrow at the Saltmarket in Glasgow. There's a waiting list for tickets. Not many political leaders can draw a crowd like him

[Colr]

I think there's a lot of good stuff in the Labour manifesto and I would rather have a Labour govenrment than a Tory one any day.

He still misses the opportunity to nail the *******s continually, though, especially on grammar schools where they could crucify them.

McDonnell did a great job tearing that twit Damian Green at the weekend but he still makes too many remarks that threaten people in the centre who have to be persuaded to vote Labour. Universal benefits is a winning policy with the group.

Labour are not quite there yet, which is a pity. I hope this election is close.

[G B Young]

I used to hate Andrew Neil but he is the best interviewer by far now. Don't know who's changed, him or me....although I didn't see his interview with Corbyn.

Like all politicians, Corbyn took a pasting from Neil, who left him floundering, in particular over Trident and the IRA question.

I agree he's a great political interviewer and presenter (despite that odd item of 'hair' he wears on his head). Like you, I never much liked him but I loved this message he delivered to the Paris bombers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U

[Hibbyradge]

I think there's a lot of good stuff in the Labour manifesto and I would rather have a Labour govenrment than a Tory one any day.

He still misses the opportunity to nail the *******s continually, though, especially on grammar schools where they could crucify them.

McDonnell did a great job tearing that twit Damian Green at the weekend but he still makes too many remarks that threaten people in the centre who have to be persuaded to vote Labour. Universal benefits is a winning policy with the group.

Labour are not quite there yet, which is a pity. I hope this election is close.

That's more or less my take on it and Corbyn seems to be faring a lot better in this campaign than I expected.

Whether that's because people see him or the LP as attractive or because Theresa May is looking wobbly is a moot point.

The truth is that a better leader with a manifesto that reached out to folk who voted Conservative last time, would be winning.

[HiBremian]

That's more or less my take on it and Corbyn seems to be faring a lot better in this campaign than I expected.

Whether that's because people see him or the LP as attractive or because Theresa May is looking wobbly is a moot point.

The truth is that a better leader with a manifesto that reached out to folk who voted Conservative last time, would be winning.

I'm not so sure that it's simply a question of "winning the centre" any more. There's also the small matter of which policies have been tried and tested, which policies actually work, and which policies have failed. In the case of both the economy (austerity) and foreign policy (Iraq, Libya and the terrorist threat), policies associated with the "centre" have failed. Judging by the comments on this Herald article, it seems a lot of the electorate agree:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/15313070.May_accuses_Corbyn_of_making_excuses_for_ terrorists_after_he_linked_Manchester_bombing_to_U K_foreign_policy/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor


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[stantonhibby]

Spin is easily detected. The opening sentence of the BBC's report is just that. If you condemn violence by both the IRA and unionists, then of course you are not "singling out" the IRA. So the BBC's take? "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to single out the IRA for condemnation when pressed over his past campaigning activities."

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-39992892


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Yes, that is now , the point Neil was making was there was nothing on record from him at the time of the bombings condemning them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not so sure that it's simply a question of "winning the centre" any more. There's also the small matter of which policies have been tried and tested, which policies actually work, and which policies have failed. In the case of both the economy (austerity) and foreign policy (Iraq, Libya and the terrorist threat), policies associated with the "centre" have failed. Judging by the comments on this Herald article, it seems a lot of the electorate agree:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/15313070.May_accuses_Corbyn_of_making_excuses_for_ terrorists_after_he_linked_Manchester_bombing_to_U K_foreign_policy/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor


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Im not sure you can say austerity has failed. It may not have worked as well as people would have liked, but its cut 70% off the deficit, delivered respsctable growth and record jobs.

Yes it has its problems, but the alternative wasnt very palatable either.

Intetestingly labour are saying (i believe) that they wont fund revenue budgets by borrowing - which would mean they have the rest of the deficit to fix.

[HibernianJK]

Massive fan of Corbyn but didn't think he was great with Andrew Neil.

FWIW does anyone know Andrew Neil's political stance?

[matty_f]

That's more or less my take on it and Corbyn seems to be faring a lot better in this campaign than I expected.

Whether that's because people see him or the LP as attractive or because Theresa May is looking wobbly is a moot point.

The truth is that a better leader with a manifesto that reached out to folk who voted Conservative last time, would be winning.

You can't really say that's "the truth", it's a matter of opinion, surely?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Massive fan of Corbyn but didn't think he was great with Andrew Neil.

FWIW does anyone know Andrew Neil's political stance?

He was certainly a Tory in the past; he even spoke at party conference way back. Don't know whether he still is.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not so sure that it's simply a question of "winning the centre" any more. There's also the small matter of which policies have been tried and tested, which policies actually work, and which policies have failed. In the case of both the economy (austerity) and foreign policy (Iraq, Libya and the terrorist threat), policies associated with the "centre" have failed. Judging by the comments on this Herald article, it seems a lot of the electorate agree:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/15313070.May_accuses_Corbyn_of_making_excuses_for_ terrorists_after_he_linked_Manchester_bombing_to_U K_foreign_policy/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor


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"Winning the centre" are your words, not mine, but for the Labour Party to win, it has to attract people who voted conservative last time, that should be obvious.

Yes, some of Labour's manifesto promises are attractive - everything free for everyone sounds good to me, too - but I doubt they're enough to swing the key seats it needs.

[Hibbyradge]

You can't really say that's "the truth", it's a matter of opinion, surely?

How can Labour win an election without the support of people who voted against them in 2015?

FYI, the Conservatives won 24 more seats than they did in 2010 and Labour lost 26.

The Tories have 306 seats to Labour's 258.

[grunt]

Perhaps they should change their name?

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/868764222859206657

(The look on Kezia's face is priceless!)

[Hibrandenburg]

Perhaps they should change their name?

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/868764222859206657

(The look on Kezia's face is priceless!)

Freudian slip, Kezia is a bit of a fanny!

[Moulin Yarns]

Perhaps they should change their name?

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/868764222859206657

(The look on Kezia's face is priceless!)

That name will be on the tip of my tongue for the rest of the week

[Hibernia&Alba]

Perhaps they should change their name?

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/868764222859206657

(The look on Kezia's face is priceless!)

Homophobia from Sky News :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

If it was on Facebook, I would lick it.:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

If it was on Facebook, I would lick it.:greengrin

I see what you did there :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Corbyn speaking tomorrow at the Saltmarket in Glasgow. There's a waiting list for tickets. Not many political leaders can draw a crowd like him

Aye right.:greengrin

18664

[lucky]

Aye right.:greengrin

18664

Just back was placed packed. The area your trying highlight was not open to anyone bar press. Ian Lavery and JC spoke very well. Real sense that Labour can win

[Hibbyradge]

Just back was placed packed. The area your trying highlight was not open to anyone bar press. Ian Lavery and JC spoke very well. Real sense that Labour can win

Were there many undecided voters there?

[lucky]

Were there many undecided voters there?

How can I answer that? But then again it was not a real question was it? The polls are closing and if the momentum can be maintained then it's all to play for. Here in Scotland Labour are up to 25%, so still work to do but the tide is turning

[Colr]

How can I answer that? But then again it was not a real question was it? The polls are closing and if the momentum can be maintained then it's all to play for. Here in Scotland Labour are up to 25%, so still work to do but the tide is turning

I think Labour will do better than many expected a few weeks ago. I may vote for them but not if I think they have a chance of winning!

[ronaldo7]

I hear, Jezza, has just said he'd open discussions with the Scottish Gov, on Indyref2, if he becomes PM.

Kezia will be pleased.:greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

How can I answer that? But then again it was not a real question was it? The polls are closing and if the momentum can be maintained then it's all to play for. Here in Scotland Labour are up to 25%, so still work to do but the tide is turning

The irony is that a small boost for Labour in Scotland will only really benefit the tories in Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

The irony is that a small boost for Labour in Scotland will only really benefit the tories in Scotland.

Depends where the boost comes from. A more even split between the Unionist parties benefits the SNP.

[Betty Boop]

Great performance from Jezza last night, calm, assured, sincere. :top marks Unlike the robotic May.

[ronaldo7]

Any Labour chaps/chappesses give me a steer on the position of your party on Indyref 2

Jezza saying one thing, and Kezza saying the other:confused:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/scottish-labour-indyref-clarity-grows/

[Slavers]

The irony is that a small boost for Labour in Scotland will only really benefit the tories in Scotland.

The same can be applied to the SNP though using that logic. For all the bluster the SNP have made about standing up to the tories, being the only party to fight the tories is the SNP etc etc

When you boil it down to achievements that the SNP have made in their time in government then you could argue that their biggest achievement was bringing about the resurrection of the conservative party in Scotland that was once dead.

So not so much as fighting the tories the SNP actually gives them a boost. This is where i think the scottish people will wake up and realize the SNP spilt's the country down lines that are not welcome. I think SNP will start loosing to both conservative and labour in a move to try and make elections on policies and not national identity.

[snooky]

The same can be applied to the SNP though using that logic. For all the bluster the SNP have made about standing up to the tories, being the only party to fight the tories is the SNP etc etc

When you boil it down to achievements that the SNP have made in their time in government then you could argue that their biggest achievement was bringing about the resurrection of the conservative party in Scotland that was once dead.

So not so much as fighting the tories the SNP actually gives them a boost. This is where i think the scottish people will wake up and realize the SNP spilt's the country down lines that are not welcome. I think SNP will start loosing to both conservative and labour in a move to try and make elections on policies and not national identity.

That's a bit off the mark given the nose dive the labour Party has taken.
Disgruntled labour voters had a choice of Conservative or SNP. Most chose the latter.
The part I find odd is that some Lab voters actually chose the Tories.
To me, metaphorically those people had the choice of a small fine or a damn good whipping, and opted for the lash.
Go figure. :confused:

[Slavers]

That's a bit off the mark given the nose dive the labour Party has taken.
Disgruntled labour voters had a choice of Conservative or SNP. Most chose the latter.
The part I find odd is that some Lab voters actually chose the Tories.
To me, metaphorically those people had the choice of a small fine or a damn good whipping, and opted for the lash.
Go figure. :confused:

In elections I have now voted for either conservative, labour and lib dems in the past. I guess some vote on single issues from time to time and are willing to vote for any party that will bring the change they want.

[snooky]

In elections I have now voted for either conservative, labour and lib dems in the past. I guess some vote on single issues from time to time and are willing to vote for any party that will bring the change they want.

Fair enough.
For local elections, I tend to go more with the person rather than the party.
However, if my mate was the Tory candidate ...... I wouldn't vote for him. :cool2:

[weecounty hibby]

. I think SNP will start loosing to both conservative and labour in a move to try and make elections on policies and not national identity.
You mean the way that the libdems, Labour and the Tories have done in Scotland? Standing against Yes2Scotland is all they want to talk about. They start every conversation and debate by mentioning independence.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You mean the way that the libdems, Labour and the Tories have done in Scotland? Standing against Yes2Scotland is all they want to talk about. They start every conversation and debate by mentioning independence.

😪😪

It is stupid and a bit bizarre for a party to spend their entire existence trying to get independence to the top of the political agenda in scotland, literally 60 or 7p years of hard slog, obly to achieve it and then complain that it is. Did you expect there would be no reaction, and that other parties would just wave the SNP through and let it open and shut the Pandora's Box that they have opened as and when it suits them?

Its the biggest question facing us, of course its going to dominate the debate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yougov Poll in the Times


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBGpKdrW0AA1YYi.jpg:large

[weecounty hibby]

😪😪

It is stupid and a bit bizarre for a party to spend their entire existence trying to get independence to the top of the political agenda in scotland, literally 60 or 7p years of hard slog, obly to achieve it and then complain that it is. Did you expect there would be no reaction, and that other parties would just wave the SNP through and let it open and shut the Pandora's Box that they have opened as and when it suits them?

Its the biggest question facing us, of course its going to dominate the debate.
It's only stupid and bizarre to the those who oppose independence and have seized that as a vote winner. They don't talk about anything else until they bring up independence. I think I told you in another post that independence is for me the single most important political issue of my lifetime and am 100% behind it. But there are other policies that need to be discussed and it just isn't happening enough. I believe that there is a concerted effort by the pro union parties to mention independence as often as possible in an attempt to piss off the electorate to the point that they just want the issue to go away

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's only stupid and bizarre to the those who oppose independence and have seized that as a vote winner. They don't talk about anything else until they bring up independence. I think I told you in another post that independence is for me the single most important political issue of my lifetime and am 100% behind it. But there are other policies that need to be discussed and it just isn't happening enough. I believe that there is a concerted effort by the pro union parties to mention independence as often as possible in an attempt to piss off the electorate to the point that they just want the issue to go away

Of course there is, because they feel that there is a rich seam of votes to be gotten by standing up and appealing to the silent majority, as they would see it. They are perfectly ebtitled to do it. The SNP's single main aim is indy, therefore to oppose them, to try amd beat them, opposition to indy will naturally be prominent. Especially when for the scotrish tories, its working.

Of coursr its deliberate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Of course there is, because they feel that there is a rich seam of votes to be gotten by standing up and appealing to the silent majority, as they would see it. They are perfectly ebtitled to do it. The SNP's single main aim is indy, therefore to oppose them, to try amd beat them, opposition to indy will naturally be prominent. Especially when for the scotrish tories, its working.

Of coursr its deliberate.

There's a wee bit more to it than that though. Tory strategy is to become the single issue No party so that anti-Indy voters will coalesce behind them, ie. they are going after Labs and Libs whose main priority is opposing Indy. The Labs and Libs have decided to try and follow suit to shore up what's left of their vote.

To be fair to the Tories, they are at heart a British Nationalist entity and always have been.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There's a wee bit more to it than that though. Tory strategy is to become the single issue No party so that anti-Indy voters will coalesce behind them, ie. they are going after Labs and Libs whose main priority is opposing Indy. The Labs and Libs have decided to try and follow suit to shore up what's left of their vote.

To be fair to the Tories, they are at heart a British Nationalist entity and always have been.

I dont agree they want to be a single issue party, in fact i am fairly sure that is categorically not the case. They have just found a weakness / strength and are exploiting it for all ot is worth.

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont agree they want to be a single issue party, in fact i am fairly sure that is categorically not the case. They have just found a weakness / strength and are exploiting it for all ot is worth.

Not across the UK, but in Scotland for sure. I don't think it'll last forever. I think the plan is to tramp Lab/Lib into the dust on the constitution and them make a pitch for Holyrood (possibly based on tax cuts).

[snooky]

"Jeremy Corbyn has indicated that his "top team" of John McDonnell, Diane Abbott and Emily Thornberry will keep their briefs in a Labour cabinet if he wins next week's General Election."

Oh dear, just when he was doing so well too.
Boom!

[Hibbyradge]

"Jeremy Corbyn has indicated that his "top team" of John McDonnell, Diane Abbott and Emily Thornberry will keep their briefs in a Labour cabinet if he wins next week's General Election."

Oh dear, just when he was doing so well too.
Boom!

I doubt that announcement will deter many, if any, from voting Labour, but why take the risk by saying it?

[High-On-Hibs]

The same can be applied to the SNP though using that logic. For all the bluster the SNP have made about standing up to the tories, being the only party to fight the tories is the SNP etc etc

When you boil it down to achievements that the SNP have made in their time in government then you could argue that their biggest achievement was bringing about the resurrection of the conservative party in Scotland that was once dead.

So not so much as fighting the tories the SNP actually gives them a boost. This is where i think the scottish people will wake up and realize the SNP spilt's the country down lines that are not welcome. I think SNP will start loosing to both conservative and labour in a move to try and make elections on policies and not national identity.

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little. It's not exactly surprising that the SNP have had very little influence over UK policy.

[Colr]

I doubt that announcement will deter many, if any, from voting Labour, but why take the risk by saying it?

Thornberry and Abbott are less than inspiring but in Abbott we have a suppoorter of private education in any case.

[Hibbyradge]

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little.

I suppose it depends on how much influence you think that a country with less than 10% of the electorate should have.

There have been 75 UK Prime Ministers. 9 were Scottish.

The number of Scots in senior cabinet poistions is well above 10% too.

[snooky]

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little. It's not exactly surprising that the SNP have had very little influence over UK policy.

Schoolyard bullies rule ya bass.

[marinello59]

"Jeremy Corbyn has indicated that his "top team" of John McDonnell, Diane Abbott and Emily Thornberry will keep their briefs in a Labour cabinet if he wins next week's General Election."

Oh dear, just when he was doing so well too.
Boom!

The Tories play Diane Abbott, Labour play Boris Johnson. The top teams of both parties are less than inspiring.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little. It's not exactly surprising that the SNP have had very little influence over UK policy.

John Smith, Keir Hardie, Gordon Brown, Charlie Kennedy, Douglas-Home (i think?), Menzies Campbell, Michael Gove, Alastair Darling, John Reid, Malcolm Rifkind, Alex Salmond, Liam Fox, George Robertson, Danny Alexander.

Just for starters, some Scottish MPs who have been very influential at Westminster. I believe Philippa Whitford (northern irish, but Scottish constituency) has also been quite influential on health select committee since 2015.

[Bristolhibby]

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little. It's not exactly surprising that the SNP have had very little influence over UK policy.

Different in a hung parliament though.

SNP would have a real chance to form a Government.

That would be true representation of the Scottish people.

J

[Hibbyradge]

John Smith, Keir Hardie, Gordon Brown, Charlie Kennedy, Douglas-Home (i think?), Menzies Campbell, Michael Gove, Alastair Darling, John Reid, Malcolm Rifkind, Alex Salmond, Liam Fox, George Robertson, Danny Alexander.

Just for starters, some Scottish MPs who have been very influential at Westminster. I believe Philippa Whitford (northern irish, but Scottish constituency) has also been quite influential on health select committee since 2015.

You missed out Tony Blair.

[marinello59]

Actually, if it tells us anything. Historically, the influence of Scottish MPs at Westminster (regardless of their party affiliation) has been very little. It's not exactly surprising that the SNP have had very little influence over UK policy.

So you are now backing the notion of the SNP group as the feeble 56? And you are an SNP supporter? :confused:

[marinello59]

Thornberry and Abbott are less than inspiring but in Abbott we have a suppoorter of private education in any case.

Abbott put her child to private school, true. That doesn't mean she is a supporter of private education over state education though. As far as I know Labour policy is to end the mock charitable status of private schools so VAT is paid on fees.

[lucky]

You mean the way that the libdems, Labour and the Tories have done in Scotland? Standing against Yes2Scotland is all they want to talk about. They start every conversation and debate by mentioning independence.

Really? It was Scotland that rejected independence not any political party. As such the democratic voice of Scotland was heard. If Nicola had stuck to the once in a generation statement no one would be talking about independence

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You missed out Tony Blair.

Indeed!

[ronaldo7]

Really? It was Scotland that rejected independence not any political party. As such the democratic voice of Scotland was heard. If Nicola had stuck to the once in a generation statement no one would be talking about independence

The generation game changed when Brexit occurred. Manifestos have to be followed, don't they?

[lord bunberry]

The generation game changed when Brexit occurred. Manifestos have to be followed, don't they?
No it doesn't matter what happens after the Indy vote. We just have to stay in our box and do what we're told. :rolleyes:

[Mantis Toboggan]

The generation game changed when Brexit occurred. Manifestos have to be followed, don't they?

No.
If you vote solely based on a manifesto you are going to be disappointed.
I would look at the character of the person you are voting for
Hence I have never voted Tory

[Mantis Toboggan]

Abbott put her child to private school, true. That doesn't mean she is a supporter of private education over state education though. As far as I know Labour policy is to end the mock charitable status of private schools so VAT is paid on fees.

It means she's an enormous hypocrite.

[marinello59]

It means she's an enormous hypocrite.

I can't argue with that.

[ronaldo7]

No.
If you vote solely based on a manifesto you are going to be disappointed.
I would look at the character of the person you are voting for
Hence I have never voted Tory

I don't.

I vote for people who will put my country first.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I don't.

I vote for people who will put my country first.

Fair enough.
I'm not a nationalist, I believe in individual freedom and helping people who are born in to disadvantage .

[ronaldo7]

Fair enough.
I'm not a nationalist, I believe in individual freedom and helping people who are born in to disadvantage .

We do that too.:wink:

[marinello59]

I don't.

I vote for people who will put my country first.

Something you have in common with Trump supporters then. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Something you have in common with Trump supporters then. :wink:

Make Scotland Great Again 😆

[Mantis Toboggan]

We do that too.:wink:

But secondary to a main aim.
Nah I think the SNP have under sturgeon moved left and that's why they have got more votes.
I'm just not a believer in independence, sorry!

[ronaldo7]

But secondary to a main aim.
Nah I think the SNP have under sturgeon moved left and that's why they have got more votes.
I'm just not a believer in independence, sorry!

The main aim is Independence, so that we can use all the recourses we as a country have. As we're currently governing we're doing what we can to alleviate Tory cuts to our budget, whilst still maintaining many policies to help the people of the country.

[ronaldo7]

Something you have in common with Trump supporters then. :wink:

I think we're a more broad church than that. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

I think we're a more broad church than that. :wink:


Dinnae bring religion into politics :wink: