The future of the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

Potentially significant power jostling in Labour as Karie Murphy (a key Len McLuskey ally and, along with Seamus Milne, one of the biggest obstacles to Lab going full Remain) has been elbowed aside out of Corbyn's team.

With the Tories now declaring that no deal is now the only option, there is a fair bit of political cover for going full remain now.


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[Colr]

With the Tories now declaring that no deal is now the only option, there is a fair bit of political cover for going full remain now.


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Hard remain for me!!

[Hibbyradge]

Potentially significant power jostling in Labour as Karie Murphy (a key Len McLuskey ally and, along with Seamus Milne, one of the biggest obstacles to Lab going full Remain) has been elbowed aside out of Corbyn's team.

Milne booted out of the inner circle?

[Colr]

Milne booted out of the inner circle?

Pulled into a General Election focused team, I’ve heard. So, wishful thinking maybe?

[Mibbes Aye]

Milne booted out of the inner circle?

Milne still there as puppet master-general, but Murphy moved out to the GE campaign, with the speculation that this is a victory over the swivel heads for those wanting a second referendum and/or a clear Remain stance.

[Moulin Yarns]

Another one bites the dust


BREAKING: Kezia Dugdale quits Labour Party over its Brexit stance

https://t.co/ORbAkWg82y

[Fife-Hibee]

Another one bites the dust


BREAKING: Kezia Dugdale quits Labour Party over its Brexit stance

https://t.co/ORbAkWg82y

Now that the money is no longer rolling in for her within the Labour Party, she can quit being a pretendy unionist.

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn says he will step down if Labour lose the next election. By then it will be too late but hey ho.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn says he will step down if Labour lose the next election. By then it will be too late but hey ho.


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Has Jo Swinson vowed to step down when her party inevitably fails to keep their fake promise of stopping Brexit?

[Ozyhibby]

Has Jo Swinson vowed to step down when her party inevitably fails to keep their fake promise of stopping Brexit?

You’ve really got it on for Jo Swinson, haven’t you?


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[Colr]

Has Jo Swinson vowed to step down when her party inevitably fails to keep their fake promise of stopping Brexit?

They will have to consider their USP if there’s a deal. I would expect them to stay pro-EU and campaign for closer integration leading to re-entry.

[Colr]

Corbyn says he will step down if Labour lose the next election. By then it will be too late but hey ho.


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Not sure what his tactic is here.

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure what his tactic is here.

Bizarre.

It's almost as if he's asking his detractors to vote for anyone but Labour.

Many will oblige.

[Colr]

Bizarre.

It's almost as if he's asking his detractors to vote for anyone but Labour.

Many will oblige.

It feels as well thought out and effective as his brexit strategy.

[Future17]

Bizarre.

It's almost as if he's asking his detractors to vote for anyone but Labour.

Many will oblige.

It's probably another reason he's reluctant to actually have an election though. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

You’ve really got it on for Jo Swinson, haven’t you?


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Why wouldn't I? How anyone can view her as being anymore trustworthy than Corbyn is beyond me. But then again, it's the same kind of people who thought Ruth Davidson had an ounce of credibility.

[G B Young]

Potentially significant power jostling in Labour as Karie Murphy (a key Len McLuskey ally and, along with Seamus Milne, one of the biggest obstacles to Lab going full Remain) has been elbowed aside out of Corbyn's team.

Seems she pressed ahead with moves to oust Tom Watson despite having been told by Corbyn to wait until after the Labour Party conference so that they didn't end up looking like "f***ing student politicians".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/12/crunch-time-for-corbyn-labour-enforcer-sidelined-as-nerves-jangle

With Seamus Milne at the helm Labour have an air of being stuck in a student union of the 1970s.

[G B Young]

Corbyn says he will step down if Labour lose the next election. By then it will be too late but hey ho.


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Why wait for the inevitable? He might as well stand down now and allow his successor time to try and arrest the party's slide into obscurity.

[Colr]

Why wait for the inevitable? He might as well stand down now and allow his successor time to try and arrest the party's slide into obscurity.

He's got to deliver Brexit first.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Why wouldn't I? How anyone can view her as being anymore trustworthy than Corbyn is beyond me. But then again, it's the same kind of people who thought Ruth Davidson had an ounce of credibility.


22622



probably haudin hands anaw :agree:

[Future17]

22622



probably haudin hands anaw :agree:

I doubt it's her hand he's holding.

[SHODAN]

22622



probably haudin hands anaw :agree:

Anyone remotely left-of-centre who still trusts the "Liberal" Democrats are deluding themselves.

[CloudSquall]

The only thing Swinson care's about is her route to the top, her and Chucka make one hell of a careerist tag team.

[Moulin Yarns]

Another labour mp, from Liverpool, has quit. Says she can't support Corbyn.


I have made the truly agonising decision to leave the Labour Party after 55 years. I can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM. I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997. https://t.co/3BTzUacZvo

[Ozyhibby]

Another labour mp, from Liverpool, has quit. Says she can't support Corbyn.


I have made the truly agonising decision to leave the Labour Party after 55 years. I can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM. I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997. https://t.co/3BTzUacZvo

The whole Corbyn project is an amazing act of self harm by the Labour Party. It’s worse than Michael Foot’s leadership because I doubt even a moderate Labour leader could have beat Thatcher but right now, a moderate Labour leader has the chance to lead a Labour government.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Another labour mp, from Liverpool, has quit. Says she can't support Corbyn.


I have made the truly agonising decision to leave the Labour Party after 55 years. I can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM. I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997. https://t.co/3BTzUacZvo




another victory for Momentum

[G B Young]

Another labour mp, from Liverpool, has quit. Says she can't support Corbyn.


I have made the truly agonising decision to leave the Labour Party after 55 years. I can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM. I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997. https://t.co/3BTzUacZvo

She adds: "A party that permits anti-Jewish racism to flourish cannot be called anti-racist".

It's one of the fiercest attacks I've seen on Corbyn, who she describes as "a danger to this country."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/louise-ellman-quits-labour-party-over-antisemitism

[G B Young]

As Ellman becomes the latest Labour MP to quit over anti-Semitism, Swinson reiterates the Lib Dem refusal to work with Corbyn:

https://news.sky.com/story/no-way-lib-dems-reiterate-opposition-to-jeremy-corbyn-as-interim-pm-11836791

[Ozyhibby]

As Ellman becomes the latest Labour MP to quit over anti-Semitism, Swinson reiterates the Lib Dem refusal to work with Corbyn:

https://news.sky.com/story/no-way-lib-dems-reiterate-opposition-to-jeremy-corbyn-as-interim-pm-11836791

For which she will be criticised by the Corbyn fans on here even though his own party don’t support him.


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[Fife-Hibee]

For which she will be criticised by the Corbyn fans on here even though his own party don’t support him.


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Didn't Swinson say she was getting the party prepared to vote for Boris Johnsons deal, despite not having a clue what it contains yet?

[RyeSloan]

Didn't Swinson say she was getting the party prepared to vote for Boris Johnsons deal, despite not having a clue what it contains yet?

You mean like this statement?


Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson also condemned the deal as "bad for our economy, bad for our public services, and bad for our environment".
The pro-Remain MP said the "fight to stop Brexit is far from over", adding: "The next few days will set the direction of our country for generations, and I am more determined than ever to stop Brexit

I’m sure you can spin that to say she is getting her party prepared to back the deal but any sane reading of that would suggest otherwise no?

[Fife-Hibee]

You mean like this statement?


Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson also condemned the deal as "bad for our economy, bad for our public services, and bad for our environment".
The pro-Remain MP said the "fight to stop Brexit is far from over", adding: "The next few days will set the direction of our country for generations, and I am more determined than ever to stop Brexit

I’m sure you can spin that to say she is getting her party prepared to back the deal but any sane reading of that would suggest otherwise no?

She also said she would back the deal if it included a peoples vote. I can see her backing this deal without an included peoples vote, then trying to claim afterwards that she thought there was going to be one.

[Ozyhibby]

She also said she would back the deal if it included a peoples vote. I can see her backing this deal without an included peoples vote, then trying to claim afterwards that she thought there was going to be one.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Did she knock you back at a school disco once?


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[Fife-Hibee]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Did she knock you back at a school disco once?


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I didn't attend the London School of Economics. If I had of done, i'd probably be lying to, manipulating and screwing people over as well.

[Mibbes Aye]

I didn't attend the London School of Economics. If I had of done, i'd probably be lying to, manipulating and screwing people over as well.

I think a few posters have all accused you of lying, regardless of whether you went to the LSE or not.

You also seem to have a particular vitriol towards women politicians.

[Glory Lurker]

Rumours tonight that Labour MPs who back Johnson's deal won't lose the whip. If true, the Labour Party surely has no future.

[Colr]

Rumours tonight that Labour MPs who back Johnson's deal won't lose the whip. If true, the Labour Party surely has no future.

Corbyn’s equivocation may have aimed to please everyone but has succeeded in the opposite.

He equivocates on his anti-semitic outrider mates to the same effect.

He’s no leader. Still an SWP agitator.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn’s equivocation may have aimed to please everyone but has succeeded in the opposite.

He equivocates on his anti-semitic outrider mates to the same effect.

He’s no leader. Still an SWP agitator.

If Johnson's deal goes through on Saturday, and that's a real possibility, I think Corbyn is goosed.

He'll have to call for a GE that he can't win so his day's will be numbered.

My concern is who Momentum and chums will want in his place.

[Ozyhibby]

If Johnson's deal goes through on Saturday, and that's a real possibility, I think Corbyn is goosed.

He'll have to call for a GE that he can't win so his day's will be numbered.

My concern is who Momentum and chums will want in his place.

Tories will get a massive majority if this vote passes on Saturday.


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[Hibbyradge]

Tories will get a massive majority if this vote passes on Saturday.


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Indeed.

And then it'll be no-deal in 14 months.

At least the £ will be a bit stronger for my forthcoming trips to Oz and Spain.

All hail Bojo. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

Watching Keir Starmer this morning and wondering what kind of madness exists in the Labour Party that they think Corbyn should be leader instead of this guy.


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[G B Young]

Watching Keir Starmer this morning and wondering what kind of madness exists in the Labour Party that they think Corbyn should be leader instead of this guy.


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I've wondered that myself, but I'm told he's deemed "too posh" by the Corbynistas and therefore seen as a potential turn-off to working-class voters, hence they soldier on with the hapless Corbyn. This despite the fact Corbyn's inner circle are a bunch of toffs turned Communist. Seamus Milne enjoyed an especially elite education.

[Fife-Hibee]

I've wondered that myself, but I'm told he's deemed "too posh" by the Corbynistas and therefore seen as a potential turn-off to working-class voters, hence they soldier on with the hapless Corbyn. This despite the fact Corbyn's inner circle are a bunch of toffs turned Communist. Seamus Milne enjoyed an especially elite education.

It's almost as if Westminster is really nothing but a bunch of toffs, all pretending to be different things to different people while really only representing their own self interests.

Not much of a selling point for the union.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've wondered that myself, but I'm told he's deemed "too posh" by the Corbynistas and therefore seen as a potential turn-off to working-class voters, hence they soldier on with the hapless Corbyn. This despite the fact Corbyn's inner circle are a bunch of toffs turned Communist. Seamus Milne enjoyed an especially elite education.

Corbyn himself was privately educated, and Starmer wasn’t.

[southsider]

How did he get knighted ?

[Moulin Yarns]

Corbyn himself was privately educated, and Starmer wasn’t.

Wheesht man, it doesn't fit the agenda. 😉

[JeMeSouviens]

How did he get knighted ?

He was the head of the crown prosecution service in England I think.

[southsider]

He was the head of the crown prosecution service in England I think.

Ok, that makes sense. Corbin imho makes Labour nelectable . SNP may win a landslide in GE but they are useless Time for Labour to ditch London and go for Independance.

[G B Young]

Corbyn himself was privately educated, and Starmer wasn’t.

Further underlines the warped perspectives within Labour. I'm guessing it's the 'Sir' that puts them off Starmer as leader over the 'posher' Corbyn.

[ronaldo7]

I've wondered that myself, but I'm told he's deemed "too posh" by the Corbynistas and therefore seen as a potential turn-off to working-class voters, hence they soldier on with the hapless Corbyn. This despite the fact Corbyn's inner circle are a bunch of toffs turned Communist. Seamus Milne enjoyed an especially elite education.

Who told you he's deemed too posh?

[Colr]

Corbyn himself was privately educated, and Starmer wasn’t.

Kind of. When Starmer got into Reigate Grammar it was voluntary aidedbut it converted to private when he was 14.

Doubt he paid, though.

[Fife-Hibee]

Who told you he's deemed too posh?

Absolutely no one. But if making stuff up allows people to stick it to them Corbyn Commies, then let's just be grateful to our capitalist utopia for giving them the freedom to do so. :whistle:

[G B Young]

Who told you he's deemed too posh?

A Labour party member I used to work with who hosted a fringe event at last year's party conference in Liverpool (ie 2018 so I'm not vouching for what she said still being the school of thought on this). The gist of it was that when the chat turned to who might ultimately succeed Corbyn, it was felt that Starmer's career background and titled moniker might earmark him as something of an establishment toff among certain Labour voters.

I note, by the way, that Starmer has this morning called for a woman to be Corbyn's successor, while McDonnell has denied a split among the inner leadership circle.

[G B Young]

Absolutely no one. But if making stuff up allows people to stick it to them Corbyn Commies, then let's just be grateful to our capitalist utopia for giving them the freedom to do so. :whistle:

Yep I just made it up to cause maximum impact on a forum which probably attracts a dozen folk on a regular basis :wink:

[ronaldo7]

A Labour party member I used to work with who hosted a fringe event at last year's party conference in Liverpool (ie 2018 so I'm not vouching for what she said still being the school of thought on this). The gist of it was that when the chat turned to who might ultimately succeed Corbyn, it was felt that Starmer's career background and titled moniker might earmark him as something of an establishment toff among certain Labour voters.

I note, by the way, that Starmer has this morning called for a woman to be Corbyn's successor, while McDonnell has denied a split among the inner leadership circle.

Thanks for that. One person then 👍

I've not watched all of Starmers interviews this morning, but I did see the one with, Marr, where he's asked if a woman should be the next leader of his party, and he said theirs no reason why not. Not exactly standing aside though.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d0caf4db6ebf4653688b05f0098b8307.jpg


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[Smartie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d0caf4db6ebf4653688b05f0098b8307.jpg


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What does "trigger" mean in this context?

[CloudSquall]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d0caf4db6ebf4653688b05f0098b8307.jpg


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Hilarious, he's the only Scottish Labour MP who would hold his seat in a GE.

[Ozyhibby]

What does "trigger" mean in this context?

They are going to try get him voted out and replaced with a more left wing candidate.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/647d3937fbac799a7525f582279ee6c6.png
Tories and SNP will be hoping this happens. Murray is popular locally and it’s not exactly a nailed on Labour seat. It’s him that gets them elected there.


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[The Harp Awakes]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d0caf4db6ebf4653688b05f0098b8307.jpg


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Good. Canny stand him. A muppet and a jambo to boot :na na:

[Pete]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d0caf4db6ebf4653688b05f0098b8307.jpg


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My weekly subs being put to good use at last.

[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/647d3937fbac799a7525f582279ee6c6.png
Tories and SNP will be hoping this happens. Murray is popular locally and it’s not exactly a nailed on Labour seat. It’s him that gets them elected there.


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Beggars belief. He was the only Labour MP left in Scotland after the 2015 election and massively increased his majority in 2017. I didn't agree with the way he took a leading role in the campaign to save the yams, but even Hibs fans I know in his constituency say he's a very hard-working local MP and as you say it's very much a case of local people voting on the quality of the candidate rather than along party lines in Edinburgh South.

That Unite would be prepared to jeopardise that goodwill just because he doen't slavishy toe the Corbyn line shows how out of touch Labour are in Scotland. Was Murray even one of the Labour rebels who voted the Brexit deal through last night? I don't think so.

[Ozyhibby]

Murray says he will stand as an independent if he gets deselected. Perfect for the SNP.


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[G B Young]

Murray says he will stand as an independent if he gets deselected. Perfect for the SNP.


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Possibly, though I imagine Murray would retain the loyalty of constituents not wedded to voting Labour - especially so when considering how unjustified his deselection would be.

[Smartie]

Possibly, though I imagine Murray would retain the loyalty of constituents not wedded to voting Labour - especially so when considering how unjustified his deselection would be.

He would, but given some folk will still vote based on party loyalties the Unionist vote will be split even further between Labour, Tories, Independent (Murray) and the Libdems. That can only ever be good for the SNP.

There is no way of looking at this move other than the Labour Party giving it to themselves in the foot with both barrels.

The more I think about them and the state of them, the angrier I get. A semi-competent, moderate Labour Party would be saving us all from this omnishambles. They are as culpable as anyone (if it is ok just to accept that Tories are doing what Tories do).

[G B Young]

He would, but given some folk will still vote based on party loyalties the Unionist vote will be split even further between Labour, Tories, Independent (Murray) and the Libdems. That can only ever be good for the SNP.

There is no way of looking at this move other than the Labour Party giving it to themselves in the foot with both barrels.

The more I think about them and the state of them, the angrier I get. A semi-competent, moderate Labour Party would be saving us all from this omnishambles. They are as culpable as anyone (if it is ok just to accept that Tories are doing what Tories do).

As Murray has said today, if they replace him with a hard-left candidate Labour will lose the seat. Len McCluskey clearly has even less of a clue about Scotland than Corbyn.

[Ozyhibby]

Possibly, though I imagine Murray would retain the loyalty of constituents not wedded to voting Labour - especially so when considering how unjustified his deselection would be.

Murray standing as an independent would be a strong favourite to retain the seat but it gives other parties hope where previously there was none.


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[Ozyhibby]

As Murray has said today, if they replace him with a hard-left candidate Labour will lose the seat. Len McCluskey clearly has even less of a clue about Scotland than Corbyn.

It’s more important to Mcluskey to gain control of the Labour Party than it is to win the election. Centrists like Murray stand in his way. Better to lose the seat than have that.


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[lucky]

It would not be unite who deselected him it will be the individual members of the CLP. Affiliates can only vote to trigger a reselection it’s then up to the members. Murray like all Labour MPs face re selection, unfortunately he’s like so many who are facing a democratic vote of the membership through their toys out the pram. There have been several MPs taking to the press in England and criticising the party leadership but these contests are in the party rules. I do expect him to get selected

[Future17]

It would not be unite who deselected him it will be the individual members of the CLP. Affiliates can only vote to trigger a reselection it’s then up to the members. Murray like all Labour MPs face re selection, unfortunately he’s like so many who are facing a democratic vote of the membership through their toys out the pram. There have been several MPs taking to the press in England and criticising the party leadership but these contests are in the party rules. I do expect him to get selected

What do you think Murray's motivation is for bringing this to press attention?

[G B Young]

It would not be unite who deselected him it will be the individual members of the CLP. Affiliates can only vote to trigger a reselection it’s then up to the members. Murray like all Labour MPs face re selection, unfortunately he’s like so many who are facing a democratic vote of the membership through their toys out the pram. There have been several MPs taking to the press in England and criticising the party leadership but these contests are in the party rules. I do expect him to get selected

According to the Guardian, Unite only need the support of a third of the affiliated members in Edinburgh South to trigger a reselection contest. The report adds that while Murray enjoys popularity among his constituents, there is long-running tension between his supporters and Corbynites in the constituency party - which a lot of centrist members have left since Corbyn become party leader.

Murray is the Labour MP with the biggest majority in Scotland. Labour deserve to lose it if he ends up deselected.

[Fife-Hibee]

What do you think Murray's motivation is for bringing this to press attention?

Commie Corbyn bad.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://i.ibb.co/PtBj0g4/JC.png

[G B Young]

Ian Murray reselected after overwhelming support from local party members:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/107524/labour-mp-ian-murray-reselected-election

Red Len will be raging.

Evening News still thinks he should find a new party:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/ian-murray-mp-should-find-new-party-collective-madness-grips-labour-john-mclellan-818797

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ian Murray reselected after overwhelming support from local party members:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/107524/labour-mp-ian-murray-reselected-election

Red Len will be raging.

Evening News still thinks he should find a new party:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/ian-murray-mp-should-find-new-party-collective-madness-grips-labour-john-mclellan-818797



anything that rages McCluskey and Momentum is always good

[Colr]

If Jez dropped dead and was replaced by Kier, the Tories would **** themselves.

[G B Young]

If Jez dropped dead and was replaced by Kier, the Tories would **** themselves.

As this article points out, Corbyn is comfortably the least popular opposition leader in the history of polling. The Tories will be hoping he stays in post for a long time to come:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

[G B Young]

anything that rages McCluskey and Momentum is always good


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-50193046

Another one in the eye for Len and Momentum.

[Bostonhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-50193046

Another one in the eye for Len and Momentum.See a lot of her on the local news down here, good popular constituency MP who probably doesn't fit with the current party line for that very reason.

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[G B Young]

See a lot of her on the local news down here, good popular constituency MP who probably doesn't fit with the current party line for that very reason.

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From The Week in Politics:

Labour is a mess of splits on the question of a a General Election. There are some hardcore Corbynites who seem genuinely convinced that the opinion polls are all wrong when they report that the party is dismally unpopular and its leader even more voter-repellent. His residual devotees cling to the faith that the miraculous gifts of Saint Jeremy will stun everyone by leading the party to triumph. However, an informal meeting of some of the shadow cabinet on Thursday, two of the strongest voices against allowing an election were John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, and Nick Brown, the chief whip.
The obvious explanation is that turkeys don’t vote for Christmas, especially when the turkeys can read opinion polls suggesting that they will be stuffed. Members of Labour’s parliamentary committee, senior MPs who act as sort of shop stewards for their colleagues, were alarmed when they had a meeting last week with Jennie Formby, the party’s general secretary. She was asked how many constituencies still hadn’t selected a candidate and which ones were on the key seat list. I’m told that the general secretary couldn’t answer either question.
It is rarely an appealing look for a party to be frightened of an election and Labour could pay a penalty when it ultimately has to face the voters. To the majority of Labour MPs, that risk is outweighed by the perils of a pre-Christmas contest. Better, they think, to run scared than to get run over.

[G B Young]

anything that rages McCluskey and Momentum is always good

Embarrassing stuff from Len here. Trying to portray the deselection attempt as a move by Labour Party members in Murray's constituency, despite the fact Murray was backed by 158 votes to 13, with Len's Unite union members the only ones to oppose him:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/unite-boss-len-mccluskey-defends-attempt-to-unseat-ian-murray-1-5033755

[Frankhfc]

My opinion is that Labour are finished as a party in its current state and will have to ultimately splinter apart or be consigned to becoming irrelevant. Its already dead up here in Scotland and looking likely to haermorrage seats everywhere else. Its a party in complete disarray. Even a change of leader wouldn't solve its deep underlying unelectable crisis.

[heretoday]

They need a new leader pronto.
I'd suggest Benn or Cooper who seem decent types.

[stokesmessiah]

I genuinely think that Labour are going to get demolished in this election. I wonder if that happens, will they eventually wise up and dump Corbyn?

[Ozyhibby]

I genuinely think that Labour are going to get demolished in this election. I wonder if that happens, will they eventually wise up and dump Corbyn?

Corbyn will be gone in every circumstance other than him winning and becoming PM. His age rules him out going another 5 years especially with 2 GE losses to his name. It’s the direction Labour take afterwards that matters.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn will be gone in every circumstance other than him winning and becoming PM. His age rules him out going another 5 years especially with 2 GE losses to his name. It’s the direction Labour take afterwards that matters.


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Would it be fair to say that many of the anti-corbyn brigade are quite happy to pay the price of a hard tory brexit to see Corbyn gone? I can't think of any other reasoning as to why any remainers would have wanted a general election at this stage.

[G B Young]

Labour presenting a united front already!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-general-election-labour-december-latest-a9176651.html

[Fife-Hibee]

Labour presenting a united front already!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-general-election-labour-december-latest-a9176651.html

Yet, these MPs complaining about the party decision know full well that an election would have been happening anyway, even if every Labour MP had voted against it. The only difference is, Labour would have been entering the election having voted against it, which would have given them the worst possible start.
These MPs know this.... but are making a song and dance about it anyway. Like their previous attempts at sabotage weren't enough :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Labour presenting a united front already!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-general-election-labour-december-latest-a9176651.html

Madness.

[The Harp Awakes]

My opinion is that Labour are finished as a party in its current state and will have to ultimately splinter apart or be consigned to becoming irrelevant. Its already dead up here in Scotland and looking likely to haermorrage seats everywhere else. Its a party in complete disarray. Even a change of leader wouldn't solve its deep underlying unelectable crisis.

When the Leader of the Scottish Labour Party Richard Leonard appeared on Question Time last week he said plenty over the hour, but quite incredibly never mentioned the word 'Scotland' once. An example of why the Labour Party has gone from total domination in Scotland to also rans in elections. They have no Scottish identity and are minions to central office. Their only chance of revival is to split from the UK labour party and adopt a pro-independence stance but they will never do it.

[Frankhfc]

When the Leader of the Scottish Labour Party Richard Leonard appeared on Question Time last week he said plenty over the hour, but quite incredibly never mentioned the word 'Scotland' once. An example of why the Labour Party has gone from total domination in Scotland to also rans in elections. They have no Scottish identity and are minions to central office. Their only chance of revival is to split from the UK labour party and adopt a pro-independence stance but they will never do it.

The Labour Party are finished in Scotland and i'd be surprised if anyone thought otherwise.

[Ozyhibby]

John McDonnel trying to sell his Labour brexit plan on R5 just now. [emoji849]


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[Hibbyradge]

John McDonnel trying to sell his Labour brexit plan on R5 just now. [emoji849]


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Why the rolling eyes?

Isn't that what he should be doing? :dunno:

[G B Young]

Why the rolling eyes?

Isn't that what he should be doing? :dunno:

I'm guessing it's an eye roll about Labour's Brexit 'policy' rather than the fact he's talking about it. Last I heard their plan would be to negotiate their own Brexit deal with the EU then put it to a second referendum, during which they would campaign against the deal they'd spent months agreeing. A nice, snappy, easy to understand message for the election leaflets...

[G B Young]

The Labour Party are finished in Scotland and i'd be surprised if anyone thought otherwise.

With the anonymous Leonard at the helm here and the clueless-about-Scotland Corbyn in charge nationally I could see them being reduced to 2015 levels of representation levels in Scotland, with Ian Murray once again Scotland's only Labour MP.

[Ozyhibby]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/in-corbyns-fight-for-power-scottish-labour-is-disposable/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Scottish Labour kneecapped?


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[Moulin Yarns]

I'm guessing it's an eye roll about Labour's Brexit 'policy' rather than the fact he's talking about it. Last I heard their plan would be to negotiate their own Brexit deal with the EU then put it to a second referendum, during which they would campaign against the deal they'd spent months agreeing. A nice, snappy, easy to understand message for the election leaflets...

Unlike the Scottish tories election leaflets telling everyone that will listen how bad the snp are and how Ruth is the country's saviour. I wonder how many times independence is mentioned this time.

[G B Young]

Unlike the Scottish tories election leaflets telling everyone that will listen how bad the snp are and how Ruth is the country's saviour. I wonder how many times independence is mentioned this time.

Worked well for them last time, winning them their most seats in Scotland for 30 years. Why shouldn't they have played to their strengths as the defenders of the Union?

Won't work so well this time I suspect without Ruth to sell the message. In fact I expect the election poll on this forum will reflect the seat count across Scotland with the SNP all but cleaning up, the Tories and Lib Dems holding on to a handful and Labour facing wipeout.

[Fife-Hibee]

Worked well for them last time, winning them their most seats in Scotland for 30 years. Why shouldn't they have played to their strengths as the defenders of the Union?

Won't work so well this time I suspect without Ruth to sell the message. In fact I expect the election poll on this forum will reflect the seat count across Scotland with the SNP all but cleaning up, the Tories and Lib Dems holding on to a handful and Labour facing wipeout.

It won't work this time if the SNP mention independence more, rather than focusing on real actual policies. A mistake they made last time.

[Dalianwanda]

Labour presenting a united front already!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-general-election-labour-december-latest-a9176651.html

If true

[Moulin Yarns]

Worked well for them last time, winning them their most seats in Scotland for 30 years. Why shouldn't they have played to their strengths as the defenders of the Union?

Won't work so well this time I suspect without Ruth to sell the message. In fact I expect the election poll on this forum will reflect the seat count across Scotland with the SNP all but cleaning up, the Tories and Lib Dems holding on to a handful and Labour facing wipeout.

Ruthie on a tank, ruthie on a bulls(hit), Ruthie being a joker. That was the plan last time but she is now a busted flush and found to be a gold digger.

Tories in Scotland need to find a new strategy.

Don't get me wrong, she as a person is pretty solid, but as a politician she is an empty vessel.

[Moulin Yarns]

Oops


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50252630

[Bristolhibby]

I'm guessing it's an eye roll about Labour's Brexit 'policy' rather than the fact he's talking about it. Last I heard their plan would be to negotiate their own Brexit deal with the EU then put it to a second referendum, during which they would campaign against the deal they'd spent months agreeing. A nice, snappy, easy to understand message for the election leaflets...

TBH and taking my own personal feelings about Brexit away, this is exactly what should have been done by “Call me Dave”.

Negotiate a deal for leaving the EU, then get confirmation in a plebiscite. Dave could then outline why remaining would have been the better path, but there is an “orderly deal” there for people.

Instead we have the skip fire of no deal Brexit hanging over us still.

J

[Frankhfc]

Oops


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50252630

Sad story all round not just for him but his wider family. Hope he recovers from his current illness.

[Smartie]

Asking a favour..........

Does anyone have a copy of the list of Tony Blair's achievements in office? They are generally left-wing policies, he made quite a lot of them which are conveniently glossed over when trying to paint Blaur as some sort of Tory in disguise.

Thanks in advance.

[Hibbyradge]

Asking a favour..........

Does anyone have a copy of the list of Tony Blair's achievements in office? They are generally left-wing policies, he made quite a lot of them which are conveniently glossed over when trying to paint Blaur as some sort of Tory in disguise.

Thanks in advance.

This should help although they forgot to say "But Iraq" at the end;

https://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/labours-blairs-top-50-achievements-since-1997/

[pontius pilate]

Could there be another leadership contest if labour lose this election. Let's face it to come up against May the Johnson and still loose to them would be an embarrassment and should surely send a message to the supporters that labour will never get into power with Corbyn as leader. I'm sure it was the same under Kinnock

[Colr]

Could there be another leadership contest if labour lose this election. Let's face it to come up against May the Johnson and still loose to them would be an embarrassment and should surely send a message to the supporters that labour will never get into power with Corbyn as leader. I'm sure it was the same under Kinnock

The voting system’s given us Ed M and Corbyn in succession. Who’d we end up with next time.

It’s already been suggested the next leader has to be a woman. That’ll be Rebecca Long-Bailey to keep out Kier (but not Yvette Cooper, obviously)

[Ozyhibby]

Looking at this, it’s going to be very hard for any centrist just to get on the ballot paper. They will need to declare very soon to start building support and they are going to have to encourage a lot of new members in order to stop a continuity Corbyn candidate.
https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/12/16/labour-leadership-election-who-can-vote-and-how-does-it-work


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[heretoday]

The voting system’s given us Ed M and Corbyn in succession. Who’d we end up with next time.

It’s already been suggested the next leader has to be a woman. That’ll be Rebecca Long-Bailey to keep out Kier (but not Yvette Cooper, obviously)

It's time Labour had a woman as leader and Lisa Nandy seems the obvious choice given her position on Brexit. That's what got her reelected in Wigan By Labout Leave voters, albeit with a reduced majority.

[Slavers]

It's time Labour had a woman as leader and Lisa Nandy seems the obvious choice given her position on Brexit. That's what got her reelected in Wigan By Labout Leave voters, albeit with a reduced majority.

Surely someone like Diane Abbot has to be considered for the new Labour leader?

[heretoday]

Surely someone like Diane Abbot has to be considered for the new Labour leader?

I wouldn't be surprised if the party members elected her or some other lefty hack who couldn't run a sweetie shop.

[RyeSloan]

Surely someone like Diane Abbot has to be considered for the new Labour leader?

Diane is so left she even wears two left shoes so would be ideally suited...you know if the shoe fits n all that...

[Mr Grieves]

It's time Labour had a woman as leader and Lisa Nandy seems the obvious choice given her position on Brexit. That's what got her reelected in Wigan By Labout Leave voters, albeit with a reduced majority.

Lisa Nandy was interviewed by Adrian chiles on 5live this morning. It's the first time I've heard of her and she came across really well.

[Cataplana]

I wouldn't be surprised if the party members elected her or some other lefty hack who couldn't run a sweetie shop.

Lefties in a socialist party. What next?

[heretoday]

Lefties in a socialist party. What next?

I really mean the Islington crowd who would elect another Corbyn given the opportunity. There were some great policies in the Labour manifesto but it was overambitious.

[Cataplana]

I really mean the Islington crowd who would elect another Corbyn given the opportunity. There were some great policies in the Labour manifesto but it was overambitious.

Nye Bevan used to love champagne, you know. People would probably have called the NHS over ambitious .

Put it this way, the rich are never going to have a good word to say about anything they have to pay for.

[Ozyhibby]

Tories will be praying that the Labour Party go with another left winger.


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[Cataplana]

Tories will be praying that the Labour Party go with another left winger.


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All of a sudden the Tories won the election because everyone hated Corbyn. Nothing to do with thick Xenophobes choosing the party that Got Brexit Done.

[CloudSquall]

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1206542210558287873


"Emily Thornberry planning to sue Caroline Flint over “stupid” constituents allegation "


A left wing party imploding due to infighting? Well I never...:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

All of a sudden the Tories won the election because everyone hated Corbyn. Nothing to do with thick Xenophobes choosing the party that Got Brexit Done.

Blaming the electorate will work. It’s time to vote in a new electorate.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1206542210558287873


"Emily Thornberry planning to sue Caroline Flint over “stupid” constituents allegation "


A left wing party imploding due to infighting? Well I never...:greengrin

It’s totally believable that Thornberry said this as she has form for being a snob.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/21/emily-thornberry-resignation-explain-outside-britain


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[Cataplana]

Blaming the electorate will work. It’s time to vote in a new electorate.[emoji23]


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Time to end the disastrous democratic experiment.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i thought rebecca long-bailey spoke well during the debates, i didn't realise she was a corbynite though

ditto angela rayner...no ta

thornberry ? gawd no, i'd never watch parliament again

starmer...possibly


going by this leaked letter from corbyn central https://labourlist.org/2016/03/leaked-list-ranks-labour-mps-by-hostility-to-corbyn/ they should go for anyone from the "core group negative" or "hostile group" list , put a corbynista in and england will have tory rule for 10 years at least, which of course doesn't affect Scotland due to us being independent :)

[G B Young]

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1206542210558287873


"Emily Thornberry planning to sue Caroline Flint over “stupid” constituents allegation "


A left wing party imploding due to infighting? Well I never...:greengrin

I hope Thornberry gets the gig. Utterly repellent and she'd be a disaster.

[weecounty hibby]

I hope Thornberry gets the gig. Utterly repellent and she'd be a disaster.

Boris Johnson is utterly repellant and he is PM.

[G B Young]

Boris Johnson is utterly repellant and he is PM.

:greengrin Fair point. Though I don't see him that way.

[weecounty hibby]

:greengrin Fair point. Though I don't see him that way.
I would never have guessed!!😀

[SHODAN]

If Labour want to win, they'll need to elect a boring Blairite centrist who will do absolutely nothing to reverse the economic and social wreckage done by Johnson and Cummings in the five years preceding the 2024 election.

Why? Because it doesn't matter how left-wing they actually are (read: not at all in comparison to perfectly normal Nordic centre-left governments), a Momentum/"Corbynite" candidate will immediately be hung, drawn and quartered by the right-wing press relentlessly for five years until their reputation is tarnished and Johnson (who's 5000 scandals during his premiership will be completely ignored and covered up) and his mates sweep another election.

Which ever way Labour goes, we're ****ed. The "centre" is pushed further and further right year by year. No one even moderately socialist has a chance. The Labour manifesto policies had universal approval but only the leader mattered. It doesn't matter who comes after him or what they're like, if they're "left-wing" then it will be ensured that they'll have "unprecedented disapproval ratings" or whatever come 2024.

[Slavers]

Who would you rather have as PM - Boris Johnson or Diane Abbott?

It may go against the grain on the Holy Ground but i'd have to pick Bojo over Abbo.

[CraigyHibee07]

If Labour want to win, they'll need to elect a boring Blairite centrist who will do absolutely nothing to reverse the economic and social wreckage done by Johnson and Cummings in the five years preceding the 2024 election.

Why? Because it doesn't matter how left-wing they actually are (read: not at all in comparison to perfectly normal Nordic centre-left governments), a Momentum/"Corbynite" candidate will immediately be hung, drawn and quartered by the right-wing press relentlessly for five years until their reputation is tarnished and Johnson (who's 5000 scandals during his premiership will be completely ignored and covered up) and his mates sweep another election.

Which ever way Labour goes, we're ****ed. The "centre" is pushed further and further right year by year. No one even moderately socialist has a chance. The Labour manifesto policies had universal approval but only the leader mattered. It doesn't matter who comes after him or what they're like, if they're "left-wing" then it will be ensured that they'll have "unprecedented disapproval ratings" or whatever come 2024.

:top marks

[Ozyhibby]

Who would you rather have as PM - Boris Johnson or Diane Abbott?

It may go against the grain on the Holy Ground but i'd have to pick Bojo over Abbo.

I’d have Johnson over Corbyn. My only support for Corbyn was based on the hope for a hung parliament and the fact I knew he would never get a majority with that manifesto.


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[CraigyHibee07]

I’d have Johnson over Corbyn.

Why?

Corbyn may be economically incompetent, but his intentions are at least good. Boris is economically incompetent and his intentions are bad.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I hope Thornberry gets the gig. Utterly repellent and she'd be a disaster.


It won't be a resurgent Labour Party that eventually removes the Tories , it will be absolute power, corrupting absolutely. In the absence of any " wet" or indeed any real sense of moderation, I don't think that it will take as long as the last time.

[Cataplana]

Who would you rather have as PM - Boris Johnson or Diane Abbott?

It may go against the grain on the Holy Ground but i'd have to pick Bojo over Abbo.

Yes, but Abbot won't get the gig.

[G B Young]

All of a sudden the Tories won the election because everyone hated Corbyn. Nothing to do with thick Xenophobes choosing the party that Got Brexit Done.

Again with your sweeping generalisation that everyone who voted Tory must be thick. You and Emily Thornberry would get on well :wink:

Corbyn was toxic on the doorstep as many Labour candidates have confirmed.

[Cataplana]

Again with your sweeping generalisation that everyone who voted Tory must be thick. You and Emily Thornberry would get on well :wink:

Corbyn was toxic on the doorstep as many Labour candidates have confirmed.

Your concern for Labour continues to touch me. However I believe your second paragraph is also a sweeping generalisation.

For the record, I didn't say everyone who voted Tory was thick. Merely the surge in new votes they got from Xenophobic communities .

There are many who will benefit from the Tories. I only think the people who won't but voted for them anyway are thick.

[G B Young]

Your concern for Labour continues to touch me. However I believe your second paragraph is also a sweeping generalisation.

For the record, I didn't say everyone who voted Tory was thick. Merely the surge in new votes they got from Xenophobic communities .

There are many who will benefit from the Tories. I only think the people who won't but voted for them anyway are thick.

I have no concern for the Labour Party, just disdain. I'd vote SNP before Labour these days. They got what was coming to them by putting their faith in the hopeless Corbyn.

I certainly can't go along with your view that the 'Red Wall' constituencies who switched from Labour to Tory comprise nothing more than thick xenophobes. As I mentioned on another thread, there have been plenty of news features both before and after the election focusing on these communities and among those interviewed about their decision to abandon the party they'd effectively been born into supporting I didn't detect evidence of either trait. Their disillusionment with Labour under Corbyn was plain to see, understandable and clearly stated. For so many thousands of voters like this, in particular those from proud mining communities, to make the decision to vote Tory took courage IMHO.

[lapsedhibee]

I certainly can't go along with your view that the 'Red Wall' constituencies who switched from Labour to Tory comprise nothing more than thick xenophobes.
But that's not what he said.

[CraigyHibee07]

I have no concern for the Labour Party, just disdain. I'd vote SNP before Labour these days. They got what was coming to them by putting their faith in the hopeless Corbyn.

I certainly can't go along with your view that the 'Red Wall' constituencies who switched from Labour to Tory comprise nothing more than thick xenophobes. As I mentioned on another thread, there have been plenty of news features both before and after the election focusing on these communities and among those interviewed about their decision to abandon the party they'd effectively been born into supporting I didn't detect evidence of either trait. Their disillusionment with Labour under Corbyn was plain to see, understandable and clearly stated. For so many thousands of voters like this, in particular those from proud mining communities, to make the decision to vote Tory took courage IMHO.

:agree:

They voted tory "for change".

They clearly knew what they were doing.

[G B Young]

But that's not what he said.

How did you interpret it? Seemed to me he said not everyone who voted for the Tories was thick, just those new Tory voters from "xenophobic communities".

Whatever one's view of this extraordinary tranche of former Labour voters now backing Boris, I also think it's wrong to suggest they won't benefit from their decision. These are the constintuencies which offer the potential to keep the Tories in power for many more years to come and Johnson would have to be daft not to realise that their faith in him deserves to be repaid. The fact the north of England was his first port of call post-election shows he - or more likely Cummings - knows the lie of the land here.

[JeMeSouviens]

How did you interpret it? Seemed to me he said not everyone who voted for the Tories was thick, just those new Tory voters from "xenophobic communities".

Whatever one's view of this extraordinary tranche of former Labour voters now backing Boris, I also think it's wrong to suggest they won't benefit from their decision. These are the constintuencies which offer the potential to keep the Tories in power for many more years to come and Johnson would have to be daft not to realise that their faith in him deserves to be repaid. The fact the north of England was his first port of call post-election shows he - or more likely Cummings - knows the lie of the land here.

The correlation between level of educational achievement and likelihood of voting remain is striking. Just saying :wink:

[RyeSloan]

If Labour want to win, they'll need to elect a boring Blairite centrist who will do absolutely nothing to reverse the economic and social wreckage done by Johnson and Cummings in the five years preceding the 2024 election.

Why? Because it doesn't matter how left-wing they actually are (read: not at all in comparison to perfectly normal Nordic centre-left governments), a Momentum/"Corbynite" candidate will immediately be hung, drawn and quartered by the right-wing press relentlessly for five years until their reputation is tarnished and Johnson (who's 5000 scandals during his premiership will be completely ignored and covered up) and his mates sweep another election.

Which ever way Labour goes, we're ****ed. The "centre" is pushed further and further right year by year. No one even moderately socialist has a chance. The Labour manifesto policies had universal approval but only the leader mattered. It doesn't matter who comes after him or what they're like, if they're "left-wing" then it will be ensured that they'll have "unprecedented disapproval ratings" or whatever come 2024.

Oh jeez so the manifesto was universally approved but the election was only lost due to the right wing press demonising Corbyn.

Sure it was.

Corbyn brought it upon himself by being Corbyn. Labour brought it upon themselves by being taken over by Momentum and producing a manifesto no one believed.

One thing I do agree with you on is not even a moderately socialist leader has a chance because the UK simply doesn’t want socialists in power...that much has been proven time and again for decades now.

There is plenty of scope for a sensible centre left party to present a credible leader and a credible set of policies, that would attract a lot of support and backing. The simple fact is that Momentum Labour and Corbyn were capable of neither of those things.

[G B Young]

Oh jeez so the manifesto was universally approved but the election was only lost due to the right wing press demonising Corbyn.

Sure it was.

Corbyn brought it upon himself by being Corbyn. Labour brought it upon themselves by being taken over by Momentum and producing a manifesto no one believed.

One thing I do agree with you on is not even a moderately socialist leader has a chance because the UK simply doesn’t want socialists in power...that much has been proven time and again for decades now.

There is plenty of scope for a sensible centre left party to present a credible leader and a credible set of policies, that would attract a lot of support and backing. The simple fact is that Momentum Labour and Corbyn were capable of neither of those things.

Spot on. As I heard one pundit put it the other day in relation to Corbyn's risible claim that Labour had 'won the arguments' despite him leading them to their worst electoral defeat in nearly a century: "How would things have looked if they'd LOST the arguments?"

[Hibrandenburg]

The correlation between level of educational achievement and likelihood of voting remain is striking. Just saying :wink:

Not being snotty, but do you have decent sources for this?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The correlation between level of educational achievement and likelihood of voting remain is striking. Just saying :wink:

I don't think that is surprising, as it was the poorest areas which voted most heavily for leave. These are communities which have been wrecked by four decades of neoliberalism and trickledown economics, with the people living there often least qualified to deal with those changes. They haven't reaped the economic benefits of the south-east and many people are desperate.

I happen to think they displayed their anger against the wrong thing in blaming the EU, and then voting for the party which caused the economic collapse in their areas, but we mustn't write them off as bigots or idiots. They are angry and many are frightened of the future, feeling helpless. They were told for decades by most of the press and political class that the EU is a sinister plot to control the UK. Most Labour voters support remain, but enough in the poorest communities supported leave to switch to the Tories or Brexit Party, costing Labour seats in their heartlands.

Labour has a very tricky task in trying to satisfy both its remain voting majority and leave voting minority. The Tories in England, and the SNP in Scotland, are much more united in their view of Brexit. The UK is now leaving the EU next month, and once it's done and the party has a new leader, Labour might be able to coalesce its voters around other issues. Brexit and negative opinions of Corbyn were toxic for them.

[Kato]

Your concern for Labour continues to touch me. However I believe your second paragraph is also a sweeping generalisation.

For the record, I didn't say everyone who voted Tory was thick. Merely the surge in new votes they got from Xenophobic communities .

There are many who will benefit from the Tories. I only think the people who won't but voted for them anyway are thick.Even Thatcher kept those weirdly inadequate but coincidentally patriotic dullards at more than a barge poles distance. The latest PM is fully on board with them and revelling in their support.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Your concern for Labour continues to touch me. However I believe your second paragraph is also a sweeping generalisation.

For the record, I didn't say everyone who voted Tory was thick. Merely the surge in new votes they got from Xenophobic communities .

There are many who will benefit from the Tories. I only think the people who won't but voted for them anyway are thick.

'Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative'. John Stuart Mill :wink:

Spitting Image from 1991:


https://youtu.be/e1l1XGiXgo0

[lapsedhibee]

Not being snotty, but do you have decent sources for this?

Don't know if this qualifies as decent:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

[JeMeSouviens]

Not being snotty, but do you have decent sources for this?

Peter Kellner, former president of YouGov:


“Overall, people who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. [For] people who got up to A-level or equivalent qualification [it was] 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain in the EU.

“So yes, there is quite a clear educational gradient in the way people voted in last year’s referendum.”


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted


The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

Of course, correlation is not causation (and I was just winding up GBY, really).

[Ozyhibby]

Peter Kellner, former president of YouGov:

Basically the people who suffered the most in the 2008 crash were the people who looked for change. And that’s not just on the Tories. Gordon Brown set the wheels in motion for allowing the banks to just carry on as if nothing happened paying each other massive bonus’s even after the crash. I would argue they weren’t stupid but angry. They got stiffed and someone was going to pay for it. The Leave campaign were smart enough to recognise it. Everyone else ignored them.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Don't know if this qualifies as decent:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

That's great thanks. Do you have anything that has a summary using words with no more than 3 syllables so I can share it with.......erm.........my target audience? 😂

[lapsedhibee]

That's great thanks. Do you have anything that has a summary using words with no more than 3 syllables so I can share it with.......erm.........my target audience? ��

On syllables, I think Cummings may come unstuck with his "People's Government" pish. Previous winning formulae have been 3-word 4-syllable jobs. Pivoting to a 2-word 5-syllable format is a big risk. If Tories crash and burn it'll mean he's overstretched his target audience.

[JeMeSouviens]

I hope Thornberry gets the gig. Utterly repellent and she'd be a disaster.

Did you not used to claim you were an ex-Lab voter?* Why wouldn't you want them to return to something of a centrist, election winning position?

I think they should go for Keir Starmer, who achieved minor miracles among the Corbynistas. I think a lot of the "must have a woman" chat is from lefties who see it as the best way to stop his momentum (no pun etc) building.

* apols if I've misremembered this.

[G B Young]

Did you not used to claim you were an ex-Lab voter?* Why wouldn't you want them to return to something of a centrist, election winning position?

I think they should go for Keir Starmer, who achieved minor miracles among the Corbynistas. I think a lot of the "must have a woman" chat is from lefties who see it as the best way to stop his momentum (no pun etc) building.

* apols if I've misremembered this.

No you haven't misremembered it but it would be a long way back for me to vote Labour again such is my disdain for their direction of travel.

I take your point re Thornberry's more centrist stance but in her case it just comes down to personality for me. I think she'd be a massive turn-off to voters with her smug, patronising tone. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she really did call Flint's constituents 'stupid' (certainly having watched the interviews with the pair of them Flint comes across as the one with nothing to hide) and I'll be surprised if she really does follow through with legal action. 'Lady Nugee' (as she's apparently nicknamed) just needed to get as public a denial out there asap or her leadership hopes would have died a death.

Starmer, yes, definitely more electable but I can't see him getting the job in the face of the ideology before electability hard core who still pull the strings.

[JeMeSouviens]

No you haven't misremembered it but it would be a long way back for me to vote Labour again such is my disdain for their direction of travel.

I take your point re Thornberry's more centrist stance but in her case it just comes down to personality for me. I think she'd be a massive turn-off to voters with her smug, patronising tone. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she really did call Flint's constituents 'stupid' (certainly having watched the interviews with the pair of them Flint comes across as the one with nothing to hide) and I'll be surprised if she really does follow through with legal action. 'Lady Nugee' (as she's apparently nicknamed) just needed to get as public a denial out there asap or her leadership hopes would have died a death.

Starmer, yes, definitely more electable but I can't see him getting the job in the face of the ideology before electability hard core who still pull the strings.

Sorry, I wasn’t suggesting Thornberry would be any good. I was questioning why you said you wanted her to get it when you know she’d be hopeless?

[Colr]

Starmer and Cooper with Phillips

[JeMeSouviens]

Starmer and Cooper with Phillips

Cooper carries Brown/Blair associations. Jess Phillips might be great but hasn’t even been front bench yet. Big jump.

[G B Young]

Sorry, I wasn’t suggesting Thornberry would be any good. I was questioning why you said you wanted her to get it when you know she’d be hopeless?

She's still a Corbyn acolyte of sorts and I think Labour deserve every bit of the flak which has come their way over the election disaster. Another car crash few years with Thornberry at the wheel might finally see the penny drop that they took an extreme wrong turn by enabling that bunch to take charge.

[CraigyHibee07]

She's still a Corbyn acolyte of sorts and I think Labour deserve every bit of the flak which has come their way over the election disaster. Another car crash few years with Thornberry at the wheel might finally see the penny drop that they took an extreme wrong turn by enabling that bunch to take charge.

Well in any case, it's not going to be relevant to Scotland.

[Colr]

Cooper carries Brown/Blair associations. Jess Phillips might be great but hasn’t even been front bench yet. Big jump.

Cooper can take the Tories to pieces. She does do regularly in committees.

Brown/Blair won three landslide elections.

[JeMeSouviens]

Cooper can take the Tories to pieces. She does do regularly in committees.

Brown/Blair won three landslide elections.

Yeah, I think she’d do fine with the electorate. It’s the membership she’ll struggle with.

[Ozyhibby]

Cooper can take the Tories to pieces. She does do regularly in committees.

Brown/Blair won three landslide elections.

I agree but I think he was referring to the fact that nobody associated with Blair could get through the new selection process in today’s Labour Party.
The public would probably take Blair himself back, but the momentum run Labour Party won’t take anyone who ever shared a conversation with him.


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[G B Young]

"We have in Jeremy a man without honour and without shame - and a type of preening narcissism that means he thinks he's still got something left to offer the Labour movement."Former Labour MP @MaryCreaghMP (https://twitter.com/MaryCreaghMP) criticises Jeremy Corbyn after she lost her seat in the election.

And after taking him to task for posing for selfies at Westminster:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50831524/creagh-on-corbyn-he-should-be-apologising

[lucky]

"We have in Jeremy a man without honour and without shame - and a type of preening narcissism that means he thinks he's still got something left to offer the Labour movement."Former Labour MP @MaryCreaghMP (https://twitter.com/MaryCreaghMP) criticises Jeremy Corbyn after she lost her seat in the election.

And after taking him to task for posing for selfies at Westminster:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50831524/creagh-on-corbyn-he-should-be-apologising

I’ve had the pleasure of working along side her and she is bonkers so I’d dismiss everything she says

[Hibernia&Alba]

There are rumours Angela Rayner will stand for deputy leader so her friend Rebeca Long-Bailey can have a clearer run as the leadership candidate of the left. I see that other prominent left-wingers, such as John McDonnell and Richard Bergen have already said they would like Becky to be next leader.

[Mibbes Aye]

There are rumours Angela Rayner will stand for deputy leader so her friend Rebeca Long-Bailey can have a clearer run as the leadership candidate of the left. I see that other prominent left-wingers, such as John McDonnell and Richard Bergen have already said they would like Becky to be next leader.

I am not sure it is rumours, the Guardian had it as a leading story yesterday. If they are that confident then I think it is likely true.

I am also not sure Richard Burgon deserves the epithet ‘prominent’. Every time I see his name I need to remind myself he isn’t a 1960s TV character actor but is in fact, hold on, I will get there ........and that’s the problem, I know he is Shad Cab and I know he is pro-JC but I really can’t put a face to a name or a name to any policy proposals. It feels like he is just one of the inner Corbyn circle, though almost certainly on the edges of the circle, with no permission to step inside the circle and therefore little autonomy :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

I am also not sure Richard Burgon deserves the epithet ‘prominent’.

He's prominent in the sense of being fairly frequently wheeled out in front of TV cameras to give the party line. My recurring thought when this happens is not about 20th century TV but How bad must the rest of the shadow cabinet be if he's the one so often deemed competent to represent it? :dunno:

[Slavers]

I'm surprised Owen Jones has not mentioned as a Labour leader. With his media contacts he could really reach out and catch the public's imagination.

[Colr]

Yeah, I think she’d do fine with the electorate. It’s the membership she’ll struggle with.

Therein lies the problem!

[G B Young]

I’ve had the pleasure of working along side her and she is bonkers so I’d dismiss everything she says

She was just one of those who put the boot into Corbyn at last night's PLP meeting at which, according to the Guardian, "only three MPs spoke up for Mr Corbyn".

"Speaking on the BBC's Newsnight, Labour peer Lord Falconer described a "volcano of molten anger" in the party.

"The sense of hostility towards the leadership of the party, the way the election was conducted, the extent to which it was a massive failure to have the election at all, the extent to which colleagues who've lost seats have been abandoned, it is absolutely tangible in the air, it is so powerful, the anger," he said.

Meanwhile, research entitled Northern Discomfort and carried out by Deltapoll, for the Tony Blair Institute, which spoke to Labour voters in three marginal seats - Bishop Auckland, Walsall and Bassetlaw - in the final week before the election, identified Mr Corbyn's leadership and the "politics he represents" as the main cause of the "rupture with long-held loyalties", the "unthinkable losses" and the alienation felt by many traditional Labour voters.

Earlier in the day the only cheers that greeted the arrival of Corbyn in the Commons came from the Tory benches: after all, he’d done more to guarantee a Conservative victory than any cabinet minister. No Labour MP could even bring themselves to look him in the eye. Corbyn appeared physically and mentally crushed: his speech a listless monotone."

[Ozyhibby]

I'm surprised Owen Jones has not mentioned as a Labour leader. With his media contacts he could really reach out and catch the public's imagination.

I couldn’t think of anyone worse than Corbyn but you have shown I wasn’t being imaginative enough.[emoji3]


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[Bostonhibby]

My biggest fear, which I can see happening, is that the machine behind the Labour disaster is in position to effectively ensure it's own survival.

Momentum is a big group within the current version of the labour party and it will spend a good few months convincing themselves that all they have to do is find a more appealing personality than Corbyn but who will be essentially the front person for the continuity they require.

They've then got a good few years to play at being important internally within their own comfort zones before telling the grateful electorate how they know best before another obliteration of the party they've attached to occurs.

The momentum version of the Labour party this time around appealed to about the same share of voters as it's likely to next time, sadly all the Tories need to do to defeat it is have something else short term to appeal to the broader base of voters who tend to prefer a more inclusive slightly left of centre Labour party. The Tories won't even have to worry about failing to deliver on half their promises as they won this time with a banner headline and no manifesto.

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[Hibbyradge]

This is a very good opinion piece about the failings of the Labour Party, imo.

While the comments about "officer class" might require you to suspend disbelief somewhat, his point about support for the IRA and Hamad is right.

One of the guys I play golf with, a reasonable, intelligent man who has voted Labour in the past, made the point about Corbyn taking sides against the UK over Ireland. He was angry about it.

While you may understand, or even agree with, Corbyn's positions, the impression they created was closer to treachery than patriotism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/15/unions-colluded-in-fiction-corbyns-plan-never-win-power?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Ozyhibby]

This is a very good opinion piece about the failings of the Labour Party, imo.

While the comments about "officer class" might require you to suspend disbelief somewhat, his point about support for the IRA and Hamad is right.

One of the guys I play golf with, a reasonable, intelligent man who has voted Labour in the past, made the point about Corbyn taking sides against the UK over Ireland. He was angry about it.

While you may understand, or even agree with, Corbyn's positions, the impression they created was closer to treachery than patriotism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/15/unions-colluded-in-fiction-corbyns-plan-never-win-power?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Although people like to look down their nose at nationalism, we live in a nation state and people expect the leader to love their nation. Johnson has no problem waving a Union Jack, neither did Tony Blair.
And in Scotland the SNP has no problem waving a saltire while the opposition parties won’t go near it. It’s one of the reasons they are winning.



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[One Day Soon]

I’ve had the pleasure of working along side her and she is bonkers so I’d dismiss everything she says

I've had the dubious pleasure of having to deal with Corbyn and I'd say that whether she is bonkers or not she is absolutely spot-on in her analysis of that poisonous, failed, privileged ***ker.

[One Day Soon]

She was just one of those who put the boot into Corbyn at last night's PLP meeting at which, according to the Guardian, "only three MPs spoke up for Mr Corbyn".

"Speaking on the BBC's Newsnight, Labour peer Lord Falconer described a "volcano of molten anger" in the party.

"The sense of hostility towards the leadership of the party, the way the election was conducted, the extent to which it was a massive failure to have the election at all, the extent to which colleagues who've lost seats have been abandoned, it is absolutely tangible in the air, it is so powerful, the anger," he said.

Meanwhile, research entitled Northern Discomfort and carried out by Deltapoll, for the Tony Blair Institute, which spoke to Labour voters in three marginal seats - Bishop Auckland, Walsall and Bassetlaw - in the final week before the election, identified Mr Corbyn's leadership and the "politics he represents" as the main cause of the "rupture with long-held loyalties", the "unthinkable losses" and the alienation felt by many traditional Labour voters.

Earlier in the day the only cheers that greeted the arrival of Corbyn in the Commons came from the Tory benches: after all, he’d done more to guarantee a Conservative victory than any cabinet minister. No Labour MP could even bring themselves to look him in the eye. Corbyn appeared physically and mentally crushed: his speech a listless monotone."


Blair's speech this morning was absolutely eviscerating of the current leadership. When you haven't heard him speak for a while you forget how incisive he is on domestic politics. He has an uncanny ability to cut through the noise to the heart of the issue. A leader of even half his ability would have taken Johnson apart in this election.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've had the dubious pleasure of having to deal with Corbyn and I'd say that whether she is bonkers or not she is absolutely spot-on in her analysis of that poisonous, failed, privileged ***ker.

Get off that fence and tell us what you really think! :wink::greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Get off that fence and tell us what you really think! :wink::greengrin

Yes, I'm often told I don't make my views clear enough...

[Colr]

Let’s not foget the unions. Will Unison, GMB, et al stand up to the divisive Len McCluskey and limit his influence? He is also responsible for the failure to secure a Labour government.

[Tomsk]

She was just one of those who put the boot into Corbyn at last night's PLP meeting at which, according to the Guardian, "only three MPs spoke up for Mr Corbyn".

"Speaking on the BBC's Newsnight, Labour peer Lord Falconer described a "volcano of molten anger" in the party.

"The sense of hostility towards the leadership of the party, the way the election was conducted, the extent to which it was a massive failure to have the election at all, the extent to which colleagues who've lost seats have been abandoned, it is absolutely tangible in the air, it is so powerful, the anger," he said.

Meanwhile, research entitled Northern Discomfort and carried out by Deltapoll, for the Tony Blair Institute, which spoke to Labour voters in three marginal seats - Bishop Auckland, Walsall and Bassetlaw - in the final week before the election, identified Mr Corbyn's leadership and the "politics he represents" as the main cause of the "rupture with long-held loyalties", the "unthinkable losses" and the alienation felt by many traditional Labour voters.

Earlier in the day the only cheers that greeted the arrival of Corbyn in the Commons came from the Tory benches: after all, he’d done more to guarantee a Conservative victory than any cabinet minister. No Labour MP could even bring themselves to look him in the eye. Corbyn appeared physically and mentally crushed: his speech a listless monotone."


And yet he still clings on to his position as leader of the party. His lack of self-awareness is astounding.

[Tomsk]

I'm surprised Owen Jones has not mentioned as a Labour leader. With his media contacts he could really reach out and catch the public's imagination.


I think Labour is capable of just about anything at the moment so long as its self-destructive, but they would be really pushing the boat out electing a leader who's not even an MP.

[G B Young]

I couldn’t think of anyone worse than Corbyn but you have shown I wasn’t being imaginative enough.[emoji3]


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Is Jones the guy who challenged Corbyn a couple of years back? If so then yes he was pretty woeful but I guess he at least knew the party was heading in the wrong direction under Corbyn.

[G B Young]

Let’s not foget the unions. Will Unison, GMB, et al stand up to the divisive Len McCluskey and limit his influence? He is also responsible for the failure to secure a Labour government.

Yes McCluskey's an unpleasant piece of work and certainly doing his best to wash his hands of the whole fiasco despite, as you say, playing an organ grinder role. It's the influence of the likes of him, though, which sees would-be leadership candidates tying themselves in all sorts of knots to avoid directly criticising Corbyn for the election horror show. Admit that you agree Corbyn was a disaster and you can kiss your leadership ambitions goodbye. Labour must rue the day they opened up the leadership voting system.

[Hibbyradge]

Is Jones the guy who challenged Corbyn a couple of years back? If so then yes he was pretty woeful but I guess he at least knew the party was heading in the wrong direction under Corbyn.

No. Owen Jones is a Corbyn supporting Guardian journalist.

[ronaldo7]

Ian Murray snubbed, as the only Scottish labour MP.

English labour MP announced as the shadow "Scottish secretary".

[CraigyHibee07]

Ian Murray snubbed, as the only Scottish labour MP.

English labour MP announced as the shadow "Scottish secretary".

Not surprised. Ian Murray is a Conservative who (at the beginning of his career) realized he had a better chance by standing as a Labour candidate in Scotland as opposed to a Conservative candidate.

He'll be a self declared "independent" soon enough.

[marinello59]

Not surprised. Ian Murray is a Conservative who (at the beginning of his career) realized he had a better chance by standing as a Labour candidate in Scotland as opposed to a Conservative candidate.

He'll be a self declared "independent" soon enough.

Really? How do you know this?

[Hibrandenburg]

Not surprised. Ian Murray is a Conservative who (at the beginning of his career) realized he had a better chance by standing as a Labour candidate in Scotland as opposed to a Conservative candidate.

He'll be a self declared "independent" soon enough.

Was Jo Swinson similar?

[CraigyHibee07]

Really? How do you know this?

He's publicly stood against Labours most Labour-leaning leader for 4 decades. Spent the whole general election making very little to no mention of the Labour Party and has just recently came out saying that the destruction of the Labour Party is a price worth paying for to keep Scotland trapped in a political union with a majority Conservative Government and that he believes it would be a price worth paying for yet again.

[marinello59]

He's publicly stood against Labours most Labour-leaning leader for 4 decades. Spent the whole general election making very little to no mention of the Labour Party and has just recently came out saying that the destruction of the Labour Party is a price worth paying for to keep Scotland trapped in a political union with a majority Conservative Government and that he believes it would be a price worth paying for yet again.

Replay to the beginning of his career where he made this cynical choice please. I thought we were going to get some juicy gossip from somebody who knew him. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Ian Murray snubbed, as the only Scottish labour MP.

English labour MP announced as the shadow "Scottish secretary".

Although to be fair would you have given Murray that job.......or any job?

[CraigyHibee07]

Replay to the beginning of his career where he made this cynical choice please. I thought we were going to get some juicy gossip from somebody who knew him. :greengrin

I can't jump inside Ian Murray's head. But I don't need to when his own rhetoric spells it out. Nobody who is truly Labour in Scotland would ever think that a majority tory government is a price worth paying for just so they can inflict further austerity and misery on the people living here.

If he had any honour he would resign from the Labour Party and stand as an independent. But he won't make any moves that risk damaging his own personal career.

[Cataplana]

I can't jump inside Ian Murray's head. But I don't need to when his own rhetoric spells it out. Nobody who is truly Labour in Scotland would ever think that a majority tory government is a price worth paying for just so they can inflict further austerity and misery on the people living here.

If he had any honour he would resign from the Labour Party and stand as an independent. But he won't make any moves that risk damaging his own personal career.

Kezia Dugdale did. I can say that because her rhetoric spelled it out.

[CraigyHibee07]

Kezia Dugdale did. I can say that because her rhetoric spelled it out.

Kezia Dugdale is an independence support who had to follow the party line and pretend she was anti-independence while leader of the Scottish branch.

[Hibbyradge]

I can't jump inside Ian Murray's head. But I don't need to when his own rhetoric spells it out. Nobody who is truly Labour in Scotland would ever think that a majority tory government is a price worth paying for just so they can inflict further austerity and misery on the people living here.

If he had any honour he would resign from the Labour Party and stand as an independent. But he won't make any moves that risk damaging his own personal career.

Do you think Corbyn should have resigned from the Labour Party when he was openly arguing against it's policies and voting against the Labour Government in parliament?

[CraigyHibee07]

Do you think Corbyn should have resigned from the Labour Party when he was openly arguing against it's policies and voting against the Labour Government in parliament?

Corbyn has never stood against Labour policy. He has however stood against policy that was introduced by Tony Blair which was distinctly anti-Labour. So no, I don't think he should have resigned.

[ronaldo7]

Although to be fair would you have given Murray that job.......or any job?

Doorman at tiny possibly.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn has never stood against Labour policy. He has however stood against policy that was introduced by Tony Blair which was distinctly anti-Labour. So no, I don't think he should have resigned.

He stood against Labour Party conference policy.

It's wasn't up to Corbyn, or you, to decide what was and wasn't LP policy.

It's hypocrisy to call for Murray to resign for dissing the leader when the leader did exactly the same in the past.

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn has never stood against Labour policy. He has however stood against policy that was introduced by Tony Blair which was distinctly anti-Labour. So no, I don't think he should have resigned.

By the time of the next election Tony Blair will be the only Labour leader in 50 years to have actually got elected. The way they treat him is why Labour are destined always to be losers.


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[CraigyHibee07]

He stood against Labour Party conference policy.

It's wasn't up to Corbyn, or you, to decide what was and wasn't LP policy.

It's hypocrisy to call for Murray to resign for dissing the leader when the leader did exactly the same in the past.

It's not really hypocrisy though. Because not once in his entire career has Corbyn ever suggested that the destruction of the Labour Party would ever be a price worth paying for. He may have gone against the party whip when standing up for it's roots when the party sold out it's roots just for the sake of getting into power, but even then, he never suggested that Labour being dessimated in an election would be a price worth paying for, not once.



By the time of the next election Tony Blair will be the only Labour leader in 50 years to have actually got elected. The way they treat him is why Labour are destined always to be losers.

Blair never got Labour elected though did he? He got a party called "Labour" elected. It's not the same thing.

[lapsedhibee]

Blair never got Labour elected though did he? He got a party called "Labour" elected. It's not the same thing.
Not sure you've really got the hang of what elections are about.

[marinello59]

It's not really hypocrisy though. Because not once in his entire career has Corbyn ever suggested that the destruction of the Labour Party would ever be a price worth paying for. He may have gone against the party whip when standing up for it's roots when the party sold out it's roots just for the sake of getting into power, but even then, he never suggested that Labour being dessimated in an election would be a price worth paying for, not once.




Blair never got Labour elected though did he? He got a party called "Labour" elected. It's not the same thing.

Have you got the actual quote from Murray there? Cheers.

[CraigyHibee07]

Not sure you've really got the hang of what elections are about.

In my view an election is about having an opposition. Not simply replacing the party already in power, so you can carry on with the same agenda where they left off.

My concern for Labour is that it's going to find itself in a position very soon where it's effectively going to try and out conservative the conservative government to appeal to a right wing nationalistic english electorate.

Rather than abandonning their roots and their policies, Labour have to make a better, stronger argument for them. While at the same time, giving the billionaire owned propaganda machine no real ammo to fling at them. One of the first things they need to do is purge the poison that has infiltrated their party since the days of Blair and Brown. Because they will continue to sabotage the party from within until they can drag Labour back to the right side of the political spectrum.

The UK needs a strong Labour Party now more than ever. But it needs to still be a Labour Party.

[Ozyhibby]

In my view an election is about having an opposition. Not simply replacing the party already in power, so you can carry on with the same agenda where they left off.

My concern for Labour is that it's going to find itself in a position very soon where it's effectively going to try and out conservative the conservative government to appeal to a right wing nationalistic english electorate.

Rather than abandonning their roots and their policies, Labour have to make a better, stronger argument for them. While at the same time, giving the billionaire owned propaganda machine no real ammo to fling at them. One of the first things they need to do is purge the poison that has infiltrated their party since the days of Blair and Brown. Because they will continue to sabotage the party from within until they can drag Labour back to the right side of the political spectrum.

The UK needs a strong Labour Party now more than ever. But it needs to still be a Labour Party.

Unless labour moves back towards the centre then they are not an effective opposition. They are just enablers for the likes of Thatcher and Johnson. Without Labour abandoning the centre ground, their majorities would have been impossible.


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[CraigyHibee07]

Have you got the actual quote from Murray there? Cheers.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/murray-its-right-to-fight-for-union-6tzh2r9v8?fbclid=IwAR0sIz7H9iS30WAo5gWZLEhLTVioI2S rK6aQCXTE6v9_7pNHcdedTT84Zog

He's suggesting that Labour in Scotland was "right to destroy itself" if it means keeping the British political union together.

Well the cost of keeping the British political union together is a majority Conservative Government that Scotland has rejected.

[CraigyHibee07]

Unless labour moves back towards the centre then they are not an effective opposition. They are just enablers for the likes of Thatcher and Johnson. Without Labour abandoning the centre ground, their majorities would have been impossible.


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I don't agree that Labour can't be an effective credible opposition on the left. Despite the result, the manifesto itself put foward isn't unpopular. People were against the man, rather than the manifesto. Which isn't surprising considering the constant demonization of him in right wing newspapers and state funded documentaries. While a vile xenophobic, racist, sexist bigot seemed to get a somewhat easier time.

I don't really buy into the centre ground argument either. People with differing political views can't agree on where the centre ground is supposed to be. Politics has become far too partisan for that these days.

[marinello59]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/murray-its-right-to-fight-for-union-6tzh2r9v8?fbclid=IwAR0sIz7H9iS30WAo5gWZLEhLTVioI2S rK6aQCXTE6v9_7pNHcdedTT84Zog

He's suggesting that Labour in Scotland was "right to destroy itself" if it means keeping the British political union together.

Well the cost of keeping the British political union together is a majority Conservative Government that Scotland has rejected.

I can't read that, I have no subscription. Could you copy and paste it please? Thanks.

[CraigyHibee07]

I can't read that, I have no subscription. Could you copy and paste it please? Thanks.

I can't get beyond the paywall either. Somebody copied and pasted it somewhere on facebook. I'll try and dig it out.

Edit: Here is a direct audio clip (albeit very breif) that somebody uploaded to twitter - https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1207319809806831616
(https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1207319809806831616)
I'll try and find a full copy of the times article.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't agree that Labour can't be an effective credible opposition on the left. Despite the result, the manifesto itself put foward isn't unpopular. People were against the man, rather than the manifesto. Which isn't surprising considering the constant demonization of him in right wing newspapers and state funded documentaries. While a vile xenophobic, racist, sexist bigot seemed to get a somewhat easier time.

I don't really buy into the centre ground argument either. People with differing political views can't agree on where the centre ground is supposed to be. Politics has become far too partisan for that these days.

The problem Labour have is that if they stay that far to the left they will always be the opposition. Rightly or wrongly the UK has drifted more to the right as was seen by the latest election. The choice of leader also didn't help but to be fair the Tory leader is an ******** as well but was still the victor. Which shows the direction of political travel

[Hibbyradge]

It's not really hypocrisy though. Because not once in his entire career has Corbyn ever suggested that the destruction of the Labour Party would ever be a price worth paying for. He may have gone against the party whip when standing up for it's roots when the party sold out it's roots just for the sake of getting into power, but even then, he never suggested that Labour being dessimated in an election would be a price worth paying for, not once.




Blair never got Labour elected though did he? He got a party called "Labour" elected. It's not the same thing.

:facepalm:

This list was taken from the Labour website. It's Labour's achievements while in government. Blair's government.

I've posted it before but you must have missed, or ignored, it.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal - helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

[CraigyHibee07]

The problem Labour have is that if they stay that far to the left they will always be the opposition. Rightly or wrongly the UK has drifted more to the right as was seen by the latest election. The choice of leader also didn't help but to be fair the Tory leader is an ******** as well but was still the victor. Which shows the direction of political travel

Then surely the function of the Labour Party should be to put foward a convincing credible argument that will pull people back to the left, rather than simply joining the Conservatives on the right?

A labour party on the right, doesn't serve any real purpose at all. Even if it gets elected in my view.

[Hibbyradge]

Then surely the function of the Labour Party should be to put foward a convincing credible argument that will pull people back to the left, rather than simply joining the Conservatives on the right?

A labour party on the right, doesn't serve any real purpose at all. Even if it gets elected in my view.

See my edit above.

[Cataplana]

The problem Labour have is that if they stay that far to the left they will always be the opposition. Rightly or wrongly the UK has drifted more to the right as was seen by the latest election. The choice of leader also didn't help but to be fair the Tory leader is an ******** as well but was still the victor. Which shows the direction of political travel

It depends if you have a Marxist perception of how the world is going. If you do, you will believe that Capitalism will destroy itself (as it nearly did in 2008).

If you take that standpount, it is prudent to have alternative systems in place. Unless you believe that people will continue to support a system that is destroying their lives.

[weecounty hibby]

Then surely the function of the Labour Party should be to put foward a convincing credible argument that will pull people back to the left, rather than simply joining the Conservatives on the right?

A labour party on the right, doesn't serve any real purpose at all. Even if it gets elected in my view.
They don't have to be on the right, see above for some if the things Blair achieved. I didn't like him , didn't vote for him but he was a successful Labour PM. He let everyone down on Iraq, the bank crisis was on his watch too in my opinion but overall I can't believe that Labour folk would rather have a Tory govt than a Blair type Labour govt. Hopefully in an independent Scotland we can get back to that sort of thinking and leave the UK to their slide ever further right. But when you have the likes of Murray prepared to sacrifice everything for the Union it will be a struggle

[marinello59]

I can't get beyond the paywall either. Somebody copied and pasted it somewhere on facebook. I'll try and dig it out.

Edit: Here is a direct audio clip (albeit very breif) that somebody uploaded to twitter - https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1207319809806831616
(https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1207319809806831616)
I'll try and find a full copy of the times article.

Thanks, that would be handy because that audio clip is miles away from him saying ' that the destruction of the Labour Party is a price worth paying for to keep Scotland trapped in a political union with a majority Conservative Government and that he believes it would be a price worth paying for yet again.'

[CraigyHibee07]

:facepalm:

This list was taken from the Labour website. It's Labour's achievements while in government. Blair's government.

I've posted it before but you must have missed, or ignored, it.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal - helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

Yes, i've seen this cut and paste numerous times online before. I could use a cut and paste list of utterly dreadful right-wing draconian measues the party also took under the Blair era. But I can tell you aren't somebody daft, so you are probably already fully aware of them all.

[CraigyHibee07]

They don't have to be on the right, see above for some if the things Blair achieved. I didn't like him , didn't vote for him but he was a successful Labour PM. He let everyone down on Iraq, the bank crisis was on his watch too in my opinion but overall I can't believe that Labour folk would rather have a Tory govt than a Blair type Labour govt. Hopefully in an independent Scotland we can get back to that sort of thinking and leave the UK to their slide ever further right. But when you have the likes of Murray prepared to sacrifice everything for the Union it will be a struggle

Quite a number of things Blair implemented are things that we attack the tory government on now. He jumped ship at just the right time in my opinion. He knew things were about to hit the wall big time and abandoned ship. Now that we're nearly 12 years on from the crash, he's trying to worm his way back in again, thinking people have forgot.

[Ozyhibby]

People keep saying that Labours manifesto was popular but there is no evidence of that. It was totally rejected by the public. It was so full of bad ideas that everyone has a different policy to blame for the defeat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CraigyHibee07]

Thanks, that would be handy because that audio clip is miles away from him saying ' that the destruction of the Labour Party is a price worth paying for to keep Scotland trapped in a political union with a majority Conservative Government and that he believes it would be a price worth paying for yet again.'

I never quoted him having said that. But if that's not what he meant, then it would be interesting to know what he actually meant.

[CraigyHibee07]

People keep saying that Labours manifesto was popular but there is no evidence of that. It was totally rejected by the public. It was so full of bad ideas that everyone has a different policy to blame for the defeat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where's your evidence of that?

[Hibbyradge]

I can't believe that Labour folk would rather have a Tory govt than a Blair type Labour govt.

Of course they would.

A successful centre left is their biggest nightmare. It sidelines them completely and shows them up to be as irrelevant and unnecessary.

More to the point, if we actually do anything to help the people we're supposed to help, the chances of "the movement" rising up together in glorious revolution are diminished.

Still, they get to prove how pure and principled they are for another 5 years.

[Hibbyradge]

Quite a number of things Blair implemented are things that we attack the tory government on now. He jumped ship at just the right time in my opinion. He knew things were about to hit the wall big time and abandoned ship. Now that we're nearly 12 years on from the crash, he's trying to worm his way back in again, thinking people have forgot.

Quite a few?

Could you name a dozen or so out of that list of 50, please.

[CraigyHibee07]

Of course they would.

A successful centre left is their biggest nightmare. It sidelines them completely and shows them up to be as irrelevant and unnecessary.

More to the point, if we actually do anything to help the people we're supposed to help, the chances of "the movement" rising up together in glorious revolution are diminished.

Still, they get to prove how pure and principled they are for another 5 years.

So what's the alternative then? Do Labour simply abandon these people? Confine them to no mainstream party representation? Do we just leave the young, the poor, the vulnerable and disabled behind with no voice to fight their corner?

It's a really sad, miserable state of affairs that the UK finds itself in.

[marinello59]

I never quoted him having said that. But if that's not what he meant, then it would be interesting to know what he actually meant.

You did. That's lifted from your post. :confused:

[Hibbyradge]

Yes, i've seen this cut and paste numerous times online before. I could use a cut and paste list of utterly dreadful right-wing draconian measues the party also took under the Blair era. But I can tell you aren't somebody daft, so you are probably already fully aware of them all.

I am proud of my daftness, but thanks for the patronising words. :hilarious

Please post the list.

[lapsedhibee]

Quite a few?

Could you name a dozen or so out of that list of 50, please.

Think he's meaning a different list. Which I'd quite like to see, even it means I'm daft.

[Colr]

Yes, i've seen this cut and paste numerous times online before. I could use a cut and paste list of utterly dreadful right-wing draconian measues the party also took under the Blair era. But I can tell you aren't somebody daft, so you are probably already fully aware of them all.

......and even after Iraq and the million strong protests he was so popular that he won another 2 landslide elections.

Current MPs tweeting that they will fight for working people should reflect that under Blair they didn’t have to fight for them. They could plan and deliver!!

[Hibbyradge]

So what's the alternative then? Do Labour simply abandon these people? Confine them to no mainstream party representation? Do we just leave the young, the poor, the vulnerable and disabled behind with no voice to fight their corner?

It's a really sad, miserable state of affairs that the UK finds itself in.

The alternative is to create a Labour Party that can win an election. No matter how far Labour has to move towards the centre, they'll always be better for the vulnerable and needy than the Tories.

[G B Young]

People keep saying that Labours manifesto was popular but there is no evidence of that. It was totally rejected by the public. It was so full of bad ideas that everyone has a different policy to blame for the defeat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed. This attempt by Corbyn's cronies to claim that Labour actually 'won the argument but lost the war' is, for want of a better word, laughable. What, as John Pienaar asked, would the size of Labour's defeat have been if they'd LOST the argument?!

I saw Blair interviewed yesterday. He remains sharp as a tack when it comes to pinpointing why Labour have failed so dismally under Corbyn. Like him or not, he's still a hell of an astute politician and his achievement in leading Labour to three election victories in succession looks ever more impressive.

[Hibbyradge]

Think he's meaning a different list. Which I'd quite like to see, even it means I'm daft.

Gotcha 🤪

[CraigyHibee07]

Quite a few?

Could you name a dozen or so out of that list of 50, please.

Why are you asking me to name a dozen out of that list of 50? Surely it would make more sense to name things that aren't in that list?

Things such as:
1) Deregulation of the financial sector
2) Abandonment of democratic control over the Bank of England
3) Refusal to renationalise or even effectively regulate the privatised utilities companies.
4) Building up an estimated £240 billion black hole of debt through the use of PFIs
5) Turning a blind eye to the rampant tax-dodging of multi-national corporations and the super rich minority.
6) Allowing the development of a vast housing Ponzi bubble built on unsustainable levels of debt accumulation.
7) Refusal to invest in much needed social housing.
8) Refusal to regulate the Buy-to-Let slumlords
9) The introduction of "Workfare" schemes.
10) The Privatisation of air traffic control,
11) Overseeing an exponential growth in corporate outsourcing contracts.
12) Planning to privatise the Royal Mail.
13) Prison privatisations.
14) Kick-starting the privatisation of the NHS.
15) Kick starting the privatisation of the education system.
16) Introducing the ATOS administered WCA regime for the disabled.
17) Attempting to introduce extremist copyright protection laws.
18) Revocation of the right to trial by jury and other attacks on the justice system.
19) Privatisation of the HMRC property portfolio
20) Backing the imperialist pretensions of the most fanatically right-wing government the US has ever suffered.

[G B Young]

Not surprised. Ian Murray is a Conservative who (at the beginning of his career) realized he had a better chance by standing as a Labour candidate in Scotland as opposed to a Conservative candidate.

He'll be a self declared "independent" soon enough.

Anyone who knows Ian Murray will be able to tell you that what you're claiming there is nonsense.

The fact he's once again emerged from a Labour election shambles as the party's only Scottish MP would suggest that he's more in tune with what Scottish voters are looking for from Labour than the hopeless Corbyn ever was.

[CraigyHibee07]

The alternative is to create a Labour Party that can win an election. No matter how far Labour has to move towards the centre, they'll always be better for the vulnerable and needy than the Tories.

You say "no matter how far Labour has to move towards the centre."

Well tell me, just how far away is the apparent "centre"?

[CraigyHibee07]

Anyone who knows Ian Murray will be able to tell you that what you're claiming there is nonsense.

The fact he's once again emerged from a Labour election shambles as the party's only Scottish MP would suggest that he's more in tune with what Scottish voters are looking for from Labour than the hopeless Corbyn ever was.

Or he simply represents the views of his own constituents which aren't necessarily reflective of Scotland as a whole. If anyone honeslty believes that Blairism is going to save the UK, then they're seriously misjudging the mood within the nationalist movement in Scotland.

[lapsedhibee]

You say "no matter how far Labour has to move towards the centre."

Well tell me, just how far away is the apparent "centre"?

I always think of the centre as small, rather than far away. But left, right and centre aren't always helpful. I'd prefer a government that employed nurses rather than imaginary nurses, and don't much care whether it's branded left or centre.

[CraigyHibee07]

I realize i'm in the minority here. But I whole heartedily disagree with the consensus. Try telling the most vulnerable people in our society that the return of Blairism is going to swoop in and save the day. The same government that gave them ATOS. The same government that introduced the private finance initiative into the NHS causing the cost of drugs and services to sky rocket, leaving less government funding availble for other vital public services that vulnerable people rely on more than others. The same government that brought in workfare schemes that helped flood the private sector with cheap and easy to replace workforce labour.

I'm not prepared to turn my back on these people and i'm certaintly not prepared to ever back a political party (regardless of it's name) who intends to do so themselves.

There's either a Labour Party that will give a voice to these people, or there isn't a Labour Party at all.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Blair was very successful at winning elections, but I believe he started the decline of Labour when he shifted the party so far to the right that the Labour heartlands lost faith. He should take most blame for the collapse of Labour in Scotland, in my opinion. It just proves you can't be all things to all people. By chasing votes in middle England, he disillusioned areas which had voted Labour for generations, by continuing with the neoliberal agenda of Thatcherism. Voters in traditional Labour areas didn't vote for that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I realize i'm in the minority here. But I whole heartedily disagree with the consensus. Try telling the most vulnerable people in our society that the return of Blairism is going to swoop in and save the day. The same government that gave them ATOS. The same government that introduced the private finance initiative into the NHS causing the cost of drugs and services to sky rocket, leaving less government funding availble for other vital public services that vulnerable people rely on more than others.

I'm not prepared to turn my back on these people and i'm certaintly not prepared to ever back a political party (regardless of it's name) who intends to do so themselves.

There's either a Labour Party that will give a voice to these people, or there isn't a Labour Party at all.

:agree:

I agree. There are millions of people who want a change from the neoliberal consensus of the last forty years. No doubt Brexit and Corbyn himself were toxic to many traditional Labour voters, but many policies in the manifesto were very popular with the same people, and neither Brexit or Corbyn will be an issue at the next election. I wouldn't listen to the likes of Blair and take another huge lurch to the right; a position which most Labour voters don't support.

[Pretty Boy]

There's something very, very familiar about this thread.

[marinello59]

There's something very, very familiar about this thread.

Yeap.

[lapsedhibee]

I realize i'm in the minority here. But I whole heartedily disagree with the consensus. Try telling the most vulnerable people in our society that the return of Blairism is going to swoop in and save the day. .

But Rebecca Long-Bailey isn't going to swoop in and save the day either, is she?

[Hibernia&Alba]

But Rebecca Long-Bailey isn't going to swoop in and save the day either, is she?

How do you know? She's a strong candidate.

[Colr]

The alternative is to create a Labour Party that can win an election. No matter how far Labour has to move towards the centre, they'll always be better for the vulnerable and needy than the Tories.
Needs to be overwhelmed with centrist liberal entryiists.

[CraigyHibee07]

But Rebecca Long-Bailey isn't going to swoop in and save the day either, is she?

Until society re discovers a social conscience, it's not going to matter what any true Labour Party does. Misery will continue to be inflicted on vulnerable people, whether it's a neoliberal conservative party, or a neoliberal conservative-lite party. Vulnerable people aren't cheering on either of these "options".

[Hibbyradge]

Sorry, I've had to go and save the world, sort of, but I'll be back (unless what I think is happening here).

Until then, here's an interesting Guardian article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/new-labour-neoliberal-left-tony-blair

[CraigyHibee07]

Sorry, I've had to go and save the world, sort of, but I'll be back (unless what I think is happening here).

Until then, here's an interesting Guardian article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/new-labour-neoliberal-left-tony-blair

I'll get round to reading this article written by Glen O'Hara (Oxford University graduate) once i've finished up at the soup kitchen. :aok:

[Cataplana]

Why are you asking me to name a dozen out of that list of 50? Surely it would make more sense to name things that aren't in that list?

Things such as:
1) Deregulation of the financial sector
2) Abandonment of democratic control over the Bank of England
3) Refusal to renationalise or even effectively regulate the privatised utilities companies.
4) Building up an estimated £240 billion black hole of debt through the use of PFIs
5) Turning a blind eye to the rampant tax-dodging of multi-national corporations and the super rich minority.
6) Allowing the development of a vast housing Ponzi bubble built on unsustainable levels of debt accumulation.
7) Refusal to invest in much needed social housing.
8) Refusal to regulate the Buy-to-Let slumlords
9) The introduction of "Workfare" schemes.
10) The Privatisation of air traffic control,
11) Overseeing an exponential growth in corporate outsourcing contracts.
12) Planning to privatise the Royal Mail.
13) Prison privatisations.
14) Kick-starting the privatisation of the NHS.
15) Kick starting the privatisation of the education system.
16) Introducing the ATOS administered WCA regime for the disabled.
17) Attempting to introduce extremist copyright protection laws.
18) Revocation of the right to trial by jury and other attacks on the justice system.
19) Privatisation of the HMRC property portfolio
20) Backing the imperialist pretensions of the most fanatically right-wing government the US has ever suffered.

You're going to have to be a bit more specific on number 20. I can remember all the way back to Nixon, son.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

I'll get round to reading this article written by Glen O'Hara (Oxford University graduate) once i've finished up at the soup kitchen. :aok:

Oh aye. Back to that nonsense.