The future of the Labour Party

[SHODAN]

Will be interesting to see how quickly the "party for remain" jump into bed with the tories again if the numbers allow them to retain power.

Without a second thought. They might persuade them to instill a leader who only hates the poor as opposed to the poor AND immigrants, but it'll be the same old neoliberal **** again.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-send-euro-vote-campaign-15681951

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-send-euro-vote-campaign-15681951

They probably thought they were being clever.

"Know them people up in the highlands who can speak that non-english language? These leaflets have some non-english written on it, send them up there."

[Future17]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48274107

Falling out between Murray and Findlay.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48274107

Falling out between Murray and Findlay.

Murray is by far their most competent politician which is a real problem for them as he is very much centre left and the rest of the party has moved way left of him.
Richard Leonard no doubt sees him as a threat.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Murray is by far their most competent politician which is a real problem for them as he is very much centre left and the rest of the party has moved way left of him.
Richard Leonard no doubt sees him as a threat.


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If by competent. You mean competent when it comes to serving his own personal interests, then you would be absolutely correct. However, he's been plotting his own vendetta against the Labour Party and it's leadership for quite some time now.

[Future17]

I was surprised to see this thread so low down the board this morning.

I was even more surprised to read Richard Leonard’s comments that Labour had been the only party fighting to unite the country against "the divisions caused by the competing nationalisms of the UK and Scottish governments".

I can just about accept he genuinely holds this view about Labour opposing Scottish nationalism but, if I’ve interpreted what he has said correctly, I simply can’t accept that he truly believes Labour has been “fighting” against the divisions caused by Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/f4df8b3b25f787d0202721cd0bd0bbd5.jpg
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[Pretty Boy]

The Tories outperformed Labour in Scotland. Let that sink in.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Tories outperformed Labour in Scotland. Let that sink in.

The Tories - while themselves having their worst result in Scotland since 1865 - outperformed Labour in Scotland.

Is there even a credible way back for them anymore?

[JeMeSouviens]

Lab 3rd in Wales. The first time Plaid Cymru have ever finished above them in an election.

[marinello59]

The Tories - while themselves having their worst result in Scotland since 1865 - outperformed Labour in Scotland.

Is there even a credible way back for them anymore?

It could be even worse for Labour if we have a GE soon. It’s conceivable that the Tories will win back votes from the Brexit party. At least they know that’s where their votes have gone and they will have a clear idea of how to win them over.
The Labour vote has been sprinkled about all over the place. It makes winning a significant number of them back difficult to say the least. A lot of those voters may well have been lost for good.

[Mibbes Aye]

The Tories - while themselves having their worst result in Scotland since 1865 - outperformed Labour in Scotland.

Is there even a credible way back for them anymore?

In my parents lifetime, the Tories were once the biggest party in Scotland and won half of all the available seats I think.

Politics is cyclical and despite my personal commitments I don’t mind seeing Corbyn and Leonard suffer for being shambolic, ambiguous and incompetent. It’s a handy reminder to those who classify themselves as of the left that you still have to offer a sense of being able to govern, along with whatever lofty principles you might claim and that failing to do so is letting the country down, not just yourself.

I think you may have hit upon a bigger issue though. For decades people bemoaned FPTP and the two-party system. Britain would never have a European-style coalition. And then came 2010 and we did. And then came the Brexit vote which split parties and their followers down the middle. Added to that, the exponential surge in the internet, social media and signing up to single issue causes and it’s not hard to see the warning signs not just for Labour but for all formally organised political parties.

Getting back to your original point, I totally understand the default hatred for the Tories, I remember the Thatcher and Major governments all too well. I think the rush to demonise them, despite the justification, is foolish though. There is I would suggest an innate small-c conservatism that is widespread in Scotland and detoxifying the Thatcher legacy is work that Davidson has already done much to achieve.

I remember the types of Tory you had as MPs in Scotland at the time Thatcher came into power. They were Tory wets by and large, practical and constituency-focused and not ideologues or swivel-heads. I think it is an inconvenient truth for some that actually, there is an appetite for those kinds of people amongst the Scottish electorate.

[JeMeSouviens]

In my parents lifetime, the Tories were once the biggest party in Scotland and won half of all the available seats I think.

Politics is cyclical and despite my personal commitments I don’t mind seeing Corbyn and Leonard suffer for being shambolic, ambiguous and incompetent. It’s a handy reminder to those who classify themselves as of the left that you still have to offer a sense of being able to govern, along with whatever lofty principles you might claim and that failing to do so is letting the country down, not just yourself.

I think you may have hit upon a bigger issue though. For decades people bemoaned FPTP and the two-party system. Britain would never have a European-style coalition. And then came 2010 and we did. And then came the Brexit vote which split parties and their followers down the middle. Added to that, the exponential surge in the internet, social media and signing up to single issue causes and it’s not hard to see the warning signs not just for Labour but for all formally organised political parties.

Getting back to your original point, I totally understand the default hatred for the Tories, I remember the Thatcher and Major governments all too well. I think the rush to demonise them, despite the justification, is foolish though. There is I would suggest an innate small-c conservatism that is widespread in Scotland and detoxifying the Thatcher legacy is work that Davidson has already done much to achieve.

I remember the types of Tory you had as MPs in Scotland at the time Thatcher came into power. They were Tory wets by and large, practical and constituency-focused and not ideologues or swivel-heads. I think it is an inconvenient truth for some that actually, there is an appetite for those kinds of people amongst the Scottish electorate.


Small clarification, but one which actually supports your innate small "c" point, I think.

The legend of the 1955 GE result (aka "when Tories won half the vote") is somewhat misunderstood I think. Up until 1965, the Unionist party in Scotland was separate from the English Conservative party. In fact its roots were actually in the Liberal party, it came from the split over Irish Home Rule. By the 1950s it was taking the whip with English Conservatives, Ulster Unionists and National Liberals. So it had a distinctively independent* Scottish streak about it and was fiercely old school Presbyterian in outlook. Arguably, it might be in the Scottish Tories' electoral interest to return to something like that setup now.

I remember those Tories too, your Ancrams, Buchanan-Smiths etc. They probably quietly shook their heads as Thatcher mercilessly took Scotland (and other parts of the UK obv before you point it out) from heavily industrialised society to wasteland without passing go. But they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it or soften the blows.


* not that kind, obv! :wink:

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's been clear for years they need rid of Corbyn. It's even more clear now. If the Labour members don't realise this, and realise it fast, then they are truly finished.

Corbyn is still sitting on the fence - apparently the tanking they took is partly due to the electorate not understanding their message of bringing people back together. Denies Labour are trying to ride two horses at once.

[Mibbes Aye]

Small clarification, but one which actually supports your innate small "c" point, I think.

The legend of the 1955 GE result (aka "when Tories won half the vote") is somewhat misunderstood I think. Up until 1965, the Unionist party in Scotland was separate from the English Conservative party. In fact its roots were actually in the Liberal party, it came from the split over Irish Home Rule. By the 1950s it was taking the whip with English Conservatives, Ulster Unionists and National Liberals. So it had a distinctively independent* Scottish streak about it and was fiercely old school Presbyterian in outlook. Arguably, it might be in the Scottish Tories' electoral interest to return to something like that setup now.

I remember those Tories too, your Ancrams, Buchanan-Smiths etc. They probably quietly shook their heads as Thatcher mercilessly took Scotland (and other parts of the UK obv before you point it out) from heavily industrialised society to wasteland without passing go. But they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it or soften the blows.


* not that kind, obv! :wink:

Good clarification, thanks for that. I guess it emphasises the point that it isn’t just now that things are fluid.

[G B Young]

The Tories outperformed Labour in Scotland. Let that sink in.

As they did in the most recent General Election and the Scottish Parliamentary Election before that.

Corbynism just doesn't cut it here.

[heretoday]

Corbyn is a step behind. He's old. He needs to go quickly.

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn is a step behind. He's old. He needs to go quickly.

Labour can fix all their problems pretty quick if they get rid of him and bring in someone like Cooper come out for remain.


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[SHODAN]

Labour can fix all their problems pretty quick if they get rid of him and bring in someone like Cooper come out for remain.


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Or a soc dem who's pro-Remain. That'll keep Momentum on board and temporarily placate the Blairites. Win-win.

[JeMeSouviens]

From Glenn Campbell, the Beeb's own Rhinestone politico:



@GlennBBC

Just interviewed @LabourRichard who says he’s “humbled” by #EuElection2019 result and now personally backs another #Brexit referendum in all circumstances

Mon the Leopardheart!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190528/d8b88223a17d65d6691885d4e12101df.jpg
Labour Party really getting on top of this.[emoji23]


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[BroxburnHibee]

Alistair Campbell expelled for voting LibDem.

[JeMeSouviens]

Neil Findlay has chucked it. Resigned from Lab front bench and not seeking re-election in 2021.

Didn't see that coming.

[Fife-Hibee]

Alistair Campbell expelled for voting LibDem.

Of course he was expelled. He backs a peoples vote. Which isn't Labours position.

[weecounty hibby]

As a party they are in complete meltdown. The only ones left clinging on are the real hardcore believers (Mon Labour!). Corbyn talks about uniting the country, he can't even unite his party when the Tories are in disarray!

[Fife-Hibee]

Where is Tornadoes70 to give us his expert anti-nat analysis on these unfolding events?

[Ozyhibby]

Alistair Campbell expelled for voting LibDem.

He’ll win his case in court. He only admitted supporting the Lib Dem’s in the past and the rules state that a member can’t support another party in the future.


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[Colr]

Alistair Campbell expelled for voting LibDem.

I wonder if they’ll be coming for me as well, then!!

[SHODAN]

Corbyn, McDonnell & Leonard are now backing a 2nd ref under all circumstances on reflection of the results. Fair play to them, they listened.

[Peevemor]

Corbyn, McDonnell & Leonard are now backing a 2nd ref under all circumstances on reflection of the results. Fair play to them, they listened.

They took their time. Anyone with half a brain can see that the Brexit on offer isn't what many voted for.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn, McDonnell & Leonard are now backing a 2nd ref under all circumstances on reflection of the results. Fair play to them, they listened.

A deaf man on a charging horse in a noisy and loud place could have heard the need for a 2nd referendum months ago.

If they'd listened sooner, Labour would have done a zillion times better last week.

:brickwall

[jonty]

I wonder if they’ll be coming for me as well, then!!

You might need to get in line. Imagine supporting a non-labour candidate!

https://twitter.com/RossPolitics/status/1133338620084051970

22080

[JeMeSouviens]

Daniel Johnson* resigns from Labour's Holyrood front bench.




* no, I don't know either.

[ronaldo7]

Daniel Johnson* resigns from Labour's Holyrood front bench.




* no, I don't know either.

They'll be hoping that Kezia returns.

#totalmeltdown

[ronaldo7]

A deaf man on a charging horse in a noisy and loud place could have heard the need for a 2nd referendum months ago.

If they'd listened sooner, Labour would have done a zillion times better last week.

:brickwall

They only had to come out for remain and a people's vote, unambiguously, to reap the rewards. Instead the lib dems hoovered up that vote in England.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190528/913ba58b494462c129a41acda9433561.jpg


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[Hibbyradge]

They only had to come out for remain and a people's vote, unambiguously, to reap the rewards. Instead the lib dems hoovered up that vote in England.

Exactly.

[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190528/d8b88223a17d65d6691885d4e12101df.jpg
Labour Party really getting on top of this.[emoji23]


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As stated here, they've been plagued by this since mid-2016 so basically they've had three years to get on top of it, same as the time they've had to develop a Brexit strategy that anybody can actually understand and have failed dismally on both counts. They are an utter shambles of an opposition at a time when the government is so weak.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48433964

[Fife-Hibee]

Exactly.

It's almost as if it was completely intentional. :wink:

[G B Young]

Corbyn, McDonnell & Leonard are now backing a 2nd ref under all circumstances on reflection of the results. Fair play to them, they listened.

Doesn't sound like they're much further forward on this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48431558

[Hibbyradge]

It's almost as if it was completely intentional. :wink:

:tee hee:

😎🕵️

[allmodcons]

Doesn't sound like they're much further forward on this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48431558

This is my big problem with the Labour Party. They are in an absolute shambles both North and South of the border, of that there is no doubt, but this at time when the Conservative Party is ripping itself apart over Europe!

At a time when we need a strong opposition they are incredibly weak, so bad in fact that they are making all the headlines thereby taking the heat off the Tories.

Here we have GB Young (a Conservative) giving us a link to Labour's Brexit problems!! How ironic is that? The party he supports are shambolic over Europe and yet he gets the opportunity to deflect to Labour's internal problems

Scotland is a great example. Up here, Ruth and her 'cuddly' brand of Tories have an absolutely woeful European election and she's able to go in to hiding because, guess what, Labour are stealing all the headlines.

Really does my head in. I mean, ffs, we lose the highly respected David Martin MEP and get the woeful Baroness Nosheena Mobarik!

[Smartie]

This is my big problem with the Labour Party. They are in an absolute shambles both North and South of the border, of that there is no doubt, but this at time when the Conservative Party is ripping itself apart over Europe!

At a time when we need a strong opposition they are incredibly weak, so bad in fact that they are making all the headlines thereby taking the heat off the Tories.

Here we have GB Young (a Conservative) giving us a link to Labour's Brexit problems!! How ironic is that? The party he supports are shambolic over Europe and yet he gets the opportunity to deflect to Labour's internal problems

Scotland is a great example. Up here, Ruth and her 'cuddly' brand of Tories have an absolutely woeful European election and she's able to go in to hiding because, guess what, Labour are stealing all the headlines.

Really does my head in. I mean, ffs, we lose the highly respected David Martin MEP and get the woeful Baroness Nosheena Mobarik!

Their biggest problem is that they are nowhere near ruthless or opportunistic enough.

What they lack most is somebody like Alastair Campbell.

Their position on Brexit isn't unreasonable - in fact it is perfectly reasonable, probably the most sensible approach anyone has. The problem with it is that it isn't appealing enough on a polarising subject.

They should be doing everything in their power to get into power. They needed to pick a side early - leave or remain - and stick with it. Personally I think they'd have been better off being all out for remain and capturing that half of the vote whilst the Tories, UKIP and the Brexit Party can worry about where the leavers go.

Once in power they can start implementing the type of policies that they believe in. I think they're kidding themselves if they think the majority off people care about much more than just Brexit right now, they need to be trying to capitalise on that rather than being an irrelevant voice of reason on the sidelines, a position I think too many of their senior figures find comfortable.

The potential and possibilities from this situation are enormous. There are so many people out there who are crying out for a sensible, cohesive, pragmatic Labour Party.

It is a scandal that the Tories are able to get away with what they are getting away with right now.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/645554bbebfb1466b96ff9f552b134bd.jpg

Labour still managing to out useless the Tories. [emoji23]


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[The Modfather]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/645554bbebfb1466b96ff9f552b134bd.jpg

Labour still managing to out useless the Tories. [emoji23]


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All part of Corbyn’s long game.

[Fife-Hibee]

All part of Corbyn’s long game.

He's going for field goal.

[Glory Lurker]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/645554bbebfb1466b96ff9f552b134bd.jpg



But the big story is what’s not showing there. SNP being on 16% of the UK vote is going to blow folks’ minds!

[Ozyhibby]

Latest polling still show Corbyn as less popular than Theresa May.[emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/0e5465bcb699477fb79b0c2a130532d9.jpg


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[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48472977

Jeremy continues to 'get to grips' with the anti-semitism saga I see.

[Ozyhibby]

Labours latest policy idea is to tax people who have gardens. So if you stay in a £1m flat in London, no tax but if you stay in a £100k house in Scotland with a garden you get hammered.


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[Sylar]

Labours latest policy idea is to tax people who have gardens. So if you stay in a £1m flat in London, no tax but if you stay in a £100k house in Scotland with a garden you get hammered.


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The so-called "allies" of green policy and tackling climate change, want to tax people with green space?

Thank **** Labour are dying a death.

[lapsedhibee]

The so-called "allies" of green policy and tackling climate change, want to tax people with green space?

Thank **** Labour are dying a death.

If Jezza and his collection of **** shadow ministers don't just **** off they are.

[JeMeSouviens]

Labours latest policy idea is to tax people who have gardens. So if you stay in a £1m flat in London, no tax but if you stay in a £100k house in Scotland with a garden you get hammered.


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I think "garden tax" is tabloid spin. The report is online, summary of recommendations here - https://landforthemany.uk/summary-of-recommendations/

I haven't had time to read it yet.

Edit - also, I think this area is all devolved so won't directly affect Scotland.

[HappyAsHellas]

Nothing at all to do with a garden tax, rather pitiful attempt by the landed gentry to defect from a policy that might be good for the less well off. Why are they still so scared of Corbyn? He must be doing something right.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think "garden tax" is tabloid spin. The report is online, summary of recommendations here - https://landforthemany.uk/summary-of-recommendations/

I haven't had time to read it yet.

Edit - also, I think this area is all devolved so won't directly affect Scotland.

Of course it would effect Scotland. Devolved just means it doesn't have to be implemented here. The Scottish Government would still have to come up with the money though.

[Smartie]

Nothing at all to do with a garden tax, rather pitiful attempt by the landed gentry to defect from a policy that might be good for the less well off. Why are they still so scared of Corbyn? He must be doing something right.


One of the problems the UK has is that we haven't lived within our means for some time and at some point we're going to have to address that. Austerity hasn't really worked.

Whilst I'm really not a fan of Corbyn, I'm constantly surprised by the hysterical over-reaction to reasonable suggestions. As far as I can see, Labour continue to put reasonably sensible left of centre policies forward. Ok, depending on your viewpoint you might like them or you might not. Suggesting we might wish to consider nationalising our crap railway system is a far cry from rounding up the richest in society, removing their possessions and sending them to a re-education camp.

Fair enough, criticise the man for his obvious failings as a leader. But the ridiculous misreporting of his policies does nobody any favours.

[Bristolhibby]

This is my big problem with the Labour Party. They are in an absolute shambles both North and South of the border, of that there is no doubt, but this at time when the Conservative Party is ripping itself apart over Europe!

At a time when we need a strong opposition they are incredibly weak, so bad in fact that they are making all the headlines thereby taking the heat off the Tories.

Here we have GB Young (a Conservative) giving us a link to Labour's Brexit problems!! How ironic is that? The party he supports are shambolic over Europe and yet he gets the opportunity to deflect to Labour's internal problems

Scotland is a great example. Up here, Ruth and her 'cuddly' brand of Tories have an absolutely woeful European election and she's able to go in to hiding because, guess what, Labour are stealing all the headlines.

Really does my head in. I mean, ffs, we lose the highly respected David Martin MEP and get the woeful Baroness Nosheena Mobarik!

Tories are brilliant at that.

Get into coalition with the Lib Dems, roll out Austerity and then the Lib Dems carry the electoral can because of “tuition fees”. Something incidentally they had to compromise to get into coalition. People still “never forgiving” them for getting into bed with the Tories. How about never forgiving the Tories?!?

My Old Mans a bit like that. Forgetting that full blown Austerity without a Liberal Dem check would have been much worse!

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Tories are brilliant at that.

Get into coalition with the Lib Dems, roll out Austerity and then the Lib Dems carry the electoral can because of “tuition fees”. Something incidentally they had to compromise to get into coalition. People still “never forgiving” them for getting into bed with the Tories. How about never forgiving the Tories?!?

My Old Mans a bit like that. Forgetting that full blown Austerity without a Liberal Dem check would have been much worse!

J

Austerity was really just cover for a smaller state, which is a Tory thing. It's not a Lib Dem thing. The Lib Dems enabled a Tory thing, and before Hibbyradge starts up again, not just as a side effect of bad strategy but by joining them in government and participating in implementing it. Without the Libs joining there would've been no coalition and no austerity to check.

[Fife-Hibee]

Tories are brilliant at that.

Get into coalition with the Lib Dems, roll out Austerity and then the Lib Dems carry the electoral can because of “tuition fees”. Something incidentally they had to compromise to get into coalition. People still “never forgiving” them for getting into bed with the Tories. How about never forgiving the Tories?!?

My Old Mans a bit like that. Forgetting that full blown Austerity without a Liberal Dem check would have been much worse!

J

A minority tory government would have collapsed if the Lib Dems hadn't entered into a coalition with them. So to say things would have been much worse isn't entirely true. The tories needed them at the time.

[Bristolhibby]

Not sure if it would have collapsed.

Guess we might have had a General Election, and who knows Tories may have won a majority.

Thing is here we go again. Blaming the Liberal Democrat’s, rather than blaming the Tories!

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Of course it would effect Scotland. Devolved just means it doesn't have to be implemented here. The Scottish Government would still have to come up with the money though.

I have no idea what you mean? :confused:

[Fife-Hibee]

I have no idea what you mean? :confused:

It's like the bedroom tax. It's not implemented in Scotland. But the Scottish Government still has to fork over the money that would have been generated by the tax to Westminster. That's how mitigation works. That's how they claw back our so called "subsidy".

[JeMeSouviens]

It's like the bedroom tax. It's not implemented in Scotland. But the Scottish Government still has to fork over the money that would have been generated by the tax to Westminster. That's how mitigation works. That's how they claw back our so called "subsidy".

No, that's because the "bedroom tax" *isn't* devolved, not because it is.

[Fife-Hibee]

No, that's because the "bedroom tax" *isn't* devolved, not because it is.

So what would prevent Westminster from simply cutting the grant allocation if the Scottish Government refused to implement the policy here?

[Future17]

It's like the bedroom tax.

It's not.


the Scottish Government still has to fork over the money that would have been generated by the tax to Westminster.

It doesn't.


That's how they claw back our so called "subsidy".

It's not.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's not.



It doesn't.



It's not.

Informative as always. :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

So what would prevent Westminster from simply cutting the grant allocation if the Scottish Government refused to implement the policy here?

Bedroom tax isn't a tax, it's a reduction in housing benefit that would otherwise be paid to the HB claimant. HB isn't a devolved benefit. There's no reduction in the SG block grant.

The SG mitigates this by topping up the HB of those affected and so spends some of its block grant (but it doesn't have to).

The possible land reform and any new land tax would be entirely different. Council tax and stamp duty which might be replaced by new taxes are already devolved. In fact stamp duty was replaced by LBTT in Scotland. The SG block grant would be entirely unaffected by any change. The SG could choose* to tax more, less or the same and do it in the same or different ways.


* assuming I've got this right and this area is fully devolved.

[marinello59]

Corbyn has been totally outplayed by Trump today and exposed as a hypocrite. He boycotts the state banquet before asking for a private meeting with Trump.

[Future17]

Informative as always. :aok:

It was informative in the sense that it pointed out that, once again, what you state as fact simply isn't.

[Smartie]

Corbyn has been totally outplayed by Trump today and exposed as a hypocrite. He boycotts the state banquet before asking for a private meeting with Trump.

I'd say Corbyn has outplayed himself, something he does regularly.

He has redeeming features but is absolutely nowhere near astute enough to represent us on the world stage.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn has been totally outplayed by Trump today and exposed as a hypocrite. He boycotts the state banquet before asking for a private meeting with Trump.

Exposed by the words of Trump. Which of course we can all trust?

[Ozyhibby]

Exposed by the words of Trump. Which of course we can all trust?

Corbyn has confirmed?


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[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn has confirmed?


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Corbyn confirmed requesting a private meeting with Trump?

[Future17]

Corbyn confirmed requesting a private meeting with Trump?

A Labour spokesperson has confirmed it.

[G B Young]

Corbyn confirmed requesting a private meeting with Trump?

'The Labour leadership confirmed they had sought a meeting with Mr Trump during his three-day visit to the UK'

Very poor call from Labour not to admit before Corbyn spoke that he'd actually requested a meeting with Trump. It leaves Corbyn looking plain daft and plays into Trump's hands. It takes a special sort of dimwit to be outplayed by Trump but Corbyn fits the bill.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn confirmed requesting a private meeting with Trump?

This thread has become a total train crash for you, Wolfie.

:greengrin

[SHODAN]

A Labour spokesperson has confirmed it.

Why would he even do that, that's ridiculous

[Hibbyradge]

Why would he even do that, that's ridiculous

It's a shambles.

Corbyn speaking at an anti-Trump rally is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with it.

But wait, Corbyn wants to be PM so he needs to prove that he's a statesman and is prepared to "engage" with anyone so he asks for a private meeting after snubbing the state dinner and attending the rally.

That's like Steve Cardownie laughing and singing songs about Hibs' demise in Jingling Geordies then attending a Hands off Hibs rally.

Not that Mr Cardownie would ever contemplate doing such a thing.

[marinello59]

Exposed by the words of Trump. Which of course we can all trust?

Can we believe Corbyn’s office who confirmed it?

[Hiber-nation]

It's a shambles.

Corbyn speaking at an anti-Trump rally is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with it.

But wait, Corbyn wants to be PM so he needs to prove that he's a statesman and is prepared to "engage" with anyone so he asks for a private meeting after snubbing the state dinner and attending the rally.

That's like Steve Cardownie laughing and singing songs about Hibs' demise in Jingling Geordies then attending a Hands off Hibs rally.

Not that Mr Cardownie would ever contemplate doing such a thing.

Steve once told me that Hibs were his 2nd team. That was a long time ago mind you when I used to collect strike fund money for him :greengrin

[The Modfather]

It's a shambles.

Corbyn speaking at an anti-Trump rally is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with it.

But wait, Corbyn wants to be PM so he needs to prove that he's a statesman and is prepared to "engage" with anyone so he asks for a private meeting after snubbing the state dinner and attending the rally.

That's like Steve Cardownie laughing and singing songs about Hibs' demise in Jingling Geordies then attending a Hands off Hibs rally.

Not that Mr Cardownie would ever contemplate doing such a thing.

Yes, but you’ve not considered that Corbyn is “for the many not the few’, “cleverly playing the long game” and an unrelated rant about “separatists”.

[Hibbyradge]

Steve once told me that Hibs were his 2nd team. That was a long time ago mind you when I used to collect strike fund money for him :greengrin

I was in the same union and I was at the same conferences.

He was always a tit, but I guess he'd say the same about me.

I like his first wife. Tina wasn't it?

[Hiber-nation]

I was in the same union and I was at the same conferences.

He was always a tit, but I guess he'd say the same about me.

I like his first wife. Tina wasn't it?

Can't remember ever meeting her but that might well have been her name.

I got on well with him back in the day. But yes a tit, absolutely.

[Hibrandenburg]

But wait, Corbyn wants to be PM so he needs to prove that he's a statesman and is prepared to "engage" with anyone so he asks for a private meeting after snubbing the state dinner and attending the rally.

Think Corbyn just wants a square go.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190610/8360cb464c17617de8003b38e01e5865.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-48587954?__twitter_impression=true


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[Colr]

I’m only still in the Labour party so I can vote for Corbyn’s replacement.

[Just Alf]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48645280

Corbyn trying to score political points and failing?



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[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48645280

Corbyn trying to score political points and failing?



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Does he not have a right to call out for "credible evidence"? Or have we all just to blindly accept the UK backing of the US narrative which has served us so well in the past?

[Bristolhibby]

Does he not have a right to call out for "credible evidence"? Or have we all just to blindly accept the UK backing of the US narrative which has served us so well in the past?

TBF I agree. We have been sold a pup that has led to years of instability. We should view any intervention very wearily.

Especially with that mental hawk Bolton whispering in Trumps ear.

J

[lord bunberry]

TBF I agree. We have been sold a pup that has led to years of instability. We should view any intervention very wearily.

Especially with that mental hawk Bolton whispering in Trumps ear.

J
Totally agree. We’ve been here before and we shouldn’t be repeating mistakes made in the past.

[Just Alf]

Does he not have a right to call out for "credible evidence"? Or have we all just to blindly accept the UK backing of the US narrative which has served us so well in the past?I hear you... I guess part of the issue is 'cry wolf' syndrome.

And by the way... I'm totally aware of the oil issue where any Iranian instability creates a massive positive for the US with regards to specialist lubricants only available from oilfields in those two countries.

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[Fife-Hibee]

I hear you... I guess part of the issue is 'cry wolf' syndrome.

And by the way... I'm totally aware of the oil issue where any Iranian instability creates a massive positive for the US with regards to specialist lubricants only available from oilfields in those two countries.

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I don't think it's political point scoring. Every single politician in the UK should be calling out for credible evidence to be presented. Instead, what we're given is "the intelligence said so". Which doesn't really serve as evidence for anything. They'll say whatever they're damn well told to say.

[Colr]

Momentum have been all over the twitter decrying the record of the 3-landslide winning New Labour government.

You couldn't make it up!!

[Fife-Hibee]

Momentum have been all over the twitter decrying the record of the 3-landslide winning New Labour government.

You couldn't make it up!!

Perhaps they don't buy into the idea of winning at any cost? Including the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

[Colr]

Perhaps they don't buy into the idea of winning at any cost? Including the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

That wasn't how New Labour won.

[Fife-Hibee]

That wasn't how New Labour won.

They won on a wave of false optimism as parties generally do. It was their "tough on terrorists" and "weapons of mass destruction" schtick that kept them in Government.

[marinello59]

They won on a wave of false optimism as parties generally do. It was their "tough on terrorists" and "weapons of mass destruction" schtick that kept them in Government.

It wasn’t.

[Colr]

They won on a wave of false optimism as parties generally do. It was their "tough on terrorists" and "weapons of mass destruction" schtick that kept them in Government.

That's complete rubbish.

[Fife-Hibee]

It wasn’t.


That's complete rubbish.

No, you both disagree with me which is fine.

In my opinion, New Labour used fear to stay in Government, just as the tories do now.

[Hibbyradge]

No, you both disagree with me which is fine.

In my opinion, New Labour used fear to stay in Government, just as the tories do now.

Fear of what?

You just make things up and when you're proved to be wrong, you hide away.

It's ridiculous.

[Pretty Boy]

I watched Andy Burnham on Marr this morning and still struggle to work out why he is Mayor of Manchester and not either already PM or on the verge of leading Labour towards a landslide victory at the next election.

He comes across as assured and likeable and it would be a stretch to tag him with the catch all 'Blairite' or 'red Tory' tag.

[Smartie]

I watched Andy Burnham on Marr this morning and still struggle to work out why he is Mayor of Manchester and not either already PM or on the verge of leading Labour towards a landslide victory at the next election.

He comes across as assured and likeable and it would be a stretch to tag him with the catch all 'Blairite' or 'red Tory' tag.

I totally agree.

He's a man that a good few people who now find themselves in various other camps would be able to unite behind.

[Colr]

I watched Andy Burnham on Marr this morning and still struggle to work out why he is Mayor of Manchester and not either already PM or on the verge of leading Labour towards a landslide victory at the next election.

He comes across as assured and likeable and it would be a stretch to tag him with the catch all 'Blairite' or 'red Tory' tag.

It's another example of a good Labour politician who felt that he would be marginalised in a Corbyn led HoC (like quite a few have that remain there).

Personally, I don't think he is leadership material. When I listen to him he rather tries to be all things to all people and lacks a coherent philosophy to guide his thoughts and answers.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's another example of a good Labour politician who felt that he would be marginalised in a Corbyn led HoC (like quite a few have that remain there).

Personally, I don't think he is leadership material. When I listen to him he rather tries to be all things to all people and lacks a coherent philosophy to guide his thoughts and answers.

Exactly. If Labour people like Burnham had taken on the racist right and shown some leadership and backbone by making the positive case for immigration, we might not have ended up in the Brexit **** we’re in. Instead they went for pandering and appeasement.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ken-clarke-andy-burnham-is-a-paler-version-of-nigel-farage-following-anti-immigration-comments-a7468571.html

[lord bunberry]

I watched Andy Burnham on Marr this morning and still struggle to work out why he is Mayor of Manchester and not either already PM or on the verge of leading Labour towards a landslide victory at the next election.

He comes across as assured and likeable and it would be a stretch to tag him with the catch all 'Blairite' or 'red Tory' tag.
Was it not him that nominated Corbyn in the leadership election thinking he’d have no chance of winning?

[Hibbyradge]

Was it not him that nominated Corbyn in the leadership election thinking he’d have no chance of winning?

No. He was a candidate.

[Fife-Hibee]

Fear of what?

You just make things up and when you're proved to be wrong, you hide away.

It's ridiculous.

So you're saying the invasion of Iraq and all of the rhetoric being spouted by New Labour at the time wasn't a factor in keeping them in government? Call it ridiculous if you want. I know what I witnessed at the time.

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48645280

Corbyn trying to score political points and failing?



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'Pathetic and predictable'. That sums Corbyn up.

He called for credible evidence of Russian involvement in the Salisbury poisonings (comically suggesting at one point that the samples should be sent to Russia for analysis) and even when presented with it only sheepishly conceded their involvement. I don't know how much access the leader of the opposition is granted to intelligence service findings but he should be wary of digging himself into a similar hole.

[Hibbyradge]

So you're saying the invasion of Iraq and all of the rhetoric being spouted by New Labour at the time wasn't a factor in keeping them in government? Call it ridiculous if you want. I know what I witnessed at the time.

You know what you want to believe.

Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with Labour winning elections.

They won because they were popular and competent.

It really is pointless discussing things with you because you just make things up. Facts are unnecessary. In fact, they're an inconvenience.

You're just like Trump.

[Fife-Hibee]

You know what you want to believe.
Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with Labour winning elections.
They won because they were popular and competent.
It really is pointless discussing things with you because you just make things up. Facts are unnecessary. In fact, they're an inconvenience.
You're just like Trump.

I'd say New Labour were a lot more like Trump, as were those who followed them.

[Hibbyradge]

I'd say New Labour were a lot more like Trump, as were those who followed them.

You would say that. It's utter bollocks. It's stupid and ignorant.

You're exactly the same as Trump.

Make it up, attack others, and refuse to give direct answers

[Fife-Hibee]

You would say that. It's utter bollocks. It's stupid and ignorant.

You're exactly the same as Trump.

Make it up, attack others, and refuse to give direct answers

I don't need to. I'm not attempting to prove anything. I merely present common sense and watch the usual rabble shout it down while refusing to present any proof of their own.

I don't care if you don't agree, therefore no need to prove it to you.

[Ozyhibby]

Blair and new Labour were good for Britain but I could not vote for them after Iraq. They won despite that though until Gordon Brown had worn Blair down with his constant back stabbing. By the time Brown eventually assumed power he had long forgotten why he wanted it in the first place. A truly terrible PM although since then they have got a lot worse.


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[Smartie]

'Pathetic and predictable'. That sums Corbyn up.

He called for credible evidence of Russian involvement in the Salisbury poisonings (comically suggesting at one point that the samples should be sent to Russia for analysis) and even when presented with it only sheepishly conceded their involvement. I don't know how much access the leader of the opposition is granted to intelligence service findings but he should be wary of digging himself into a similar hole.

I didn't think there was all that much wrong with what Corbyn said re Salisbury. All he was asking was that we get a few facts together before blaming Russia - something he eventually did quite happily once the facts were available.

Is it totally outrageous for him to suggest that we do likewise with this current situation? Whilst in all likelihood everything will eventually decisively point towards Iran, it would be fair to say that there are a number of factions in that region who may have motive to carry out such an attack.

[ronaldo7]

You know what you want to believe.

Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with Labour winning elections.

They won because they were popular and competent.

It really is pointless discussing things with you because you just make things up. Facts are unnecessary. In fact, they're an inconvenience.

You're just like Trump.

They were so competent, we're still paying for it(PFI) and will be for years to come. When Blair came to power, their was a waft of hope in the air, that turned to stench after a while.

Some good, but some very bad decisions.

[Fife-Hibee]

They were so competent, we're still paying for it(PFI) and will be for years to come. When Blair came to power, their was a waft of hope in the air, that turned to stench after a while.

Some good, but some very bad decisions.

Exactly. The idea that it was some wonderful array of polices that kept them in power is just plain wrong. Labour played the “you don’t want to destabilise the government while we’re at war” card to great effect.

[Hibbyradge]

Exactly. The idea that it was some wonderful array of polices that kept them in power is just plain wrong. Labour played the “you don’t want to destabilise the government while we’re at war” card to great effect.

:faf:

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

[Hibbyradge]

They were so competent, we're still paying for it(PFI) and will be for years to come. When Blair came to power, their was a waft of hope in the air, that turned to stench after a while.

Some good, but some very bad decisions.

They won the second 2 elections because of their performance in government.

Of course it went downhill, and Iraq became a millstone, but the idea that Blair used it to somehow frighten the gullible electorate into voting Labour is Trumpesque fantasy.

[Smartie]

Exactly. The idea that it was some wonderful array of polices that kept them in power is just plain wrong. Labour played the “you don’t want to destabilise the government while we’re at war” card to great effect.

Labour stayed in power for as long as they did around then because the Tories were a shambles with weak leadership and were, er, tearing themselves apart over Europe.

There was something cold, pragmatic and practical about that Labour government though - they knew they could do more good in government than from sniping from the sidelines. They pissed a lot of people off along the way (particularly amongst their own idealists) but it was better than being so shambolic that they afforded Tories open goal after open goal to carry out their nastier policies.

They were a government who had a mixed record and one that is hard to look back on too fondly but they were better than most within my lifetime.

And we could do with one like that right now.

[Fife-Hibee]

Labour stayed in power for as long as they did around then because the Tories were a shambles with weak leadership and were, er, tearing themselves apart over Europe.

There was something cold, pragmatic and practical about that Labour government though - they knew they could do more good in government than from sniping from the sidelines. They pissed a lot of people off along the way (particularly amongst their own idealists) but it was better than being so shambolic that they afforded Tories open goal after open goal to carry out their nastier policies.

They were a government who had a mixed record and one that is hard to look back on too fondly but they were better than most within my lifetime.

And we could do with one like that right now.

If it came at the cost of another morally bankrupt war resulting in the slaughtering and rape of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Then I’d far rather have the tories under Boris Johnson.

People underestimate just how much of a cancer New Labour really was.

[Hibbyradge]

If it came at the cost of another morally bankrupt war resulting in the slaughtering and rape of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Then I’d far rather have the tories under Boris Johnson.

People underestimate just how much of a cancer New Labour really was.

:faf:

You're just trolling now.

Silly.

[Fife-Hibee]

The economy may have performed well under Blair. But it did so at the cost of setting severely damaging economic foundations that were always going to cause suffering in the long run. Blair knew exactly when to jump ship. He was the first cog in the machine towards economic shambles and he knew it.

[Fife-Hibee]

:faf:

You're just trolling now.

Silly.

You’re in love with New Labour. We get it already.

[Smartie]

If it came at the cost of another morally bankrupt war resulting in the slaughtering and rape of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Then I’d far rather have the tories under Boris Johnson.

People underestimate just how much of a cancer New Labour really was.

I don't agree with the circumstances surrounding that war any more than you do, and it is a colossal black mark against that government.

It overshadows much of the decent work they did in government but doesn't black it out completely.

You've got be careful with how much Tory mischief you'd be prepared to take in preference to them.

[Hibbyradge]

You’re in love with New Labour. We get it already.

:faf:

Your ability to misinterpret is becoming legendary.

It's a black and white world for you, isn't it.

[ronaldo7]

They won the second 2 elections because of their performance in government.

Of course it went downhill, and Iraq became a millstone, but the idea that Blair used it to somehow frighten the gullible electorate into voting Labour is Trumpesque fantasy.

My reply to you was on competency. Most people never knew how incompetent until they left office. I can't remember seeing the costs involved in the refurbished or new build, schools and hospitals. We'll be paying for them for decades.

Iraq is another matter, and I agree, that's what brought, Labour down.

[ronaldo7]

I don't agree with the circumstances surrounding that war any more than you do, and it is a colossal black mark against that government.

It overshadows much of the decent work they did in government but doesn't black it out completely.

You've got be careful with how much Tory mischief you'd be prepared to take in preference to them.

If the Tories had the balls to call an election tomorrow, I'd take a minority Labour government with an SNP 50 seats, seeing them over the line in a heartbeat.

Whether labour would go for it is another matter.

[Hibbyradge]

My reply to you was on competency. Most people never knew how incompetent until they left office. I can't remember seeing the costs involved in the refurbished or new build, schools and hospitals. We'll be paying for them for decades.

Iraq is another matter, and I agree, that's what brought, Labour down.

The recession in 2008 blootered Brown's economic strategies and his revenue predictions were rendered completely wrong.

Brown was never a popular leader. His unfortunate mannerisms and forced smile, made him hard to warm to. The Tories did everything they could to blame him for the credit crunch although it was a global phenomenon and Brown took us out of it.

As much as people blame Iraq for Labour's decline, I think that Brown and the recession were at least equally to blame.

The anger over Iraq in the country was mostly aimed at Tony Blair and he had already resigned as PM.

Whether we care to admit it or not, people can turn blind eyes to issues that don't affect them directly, as long as their own situation is a happy one.

[Fife-Hibee]

What people fail to realise is that it was the plumaging of the Middle East that temporarily boosted the UK economy. To say you want a New Labour type government again is to say that you’re happy with us stripping another country bare on a lie if it temporarily improves the UK economy.

We should never want a New Labour type government again, ever.

[Fife-Hibee]

Whether we care to admit it or not, people can turn blind eyes to issues that don't affect them directly, as long as their own situation is a happy one.

Exactly what you’re doing. You want a better UK economy at any cost. Even if it’s achieved through cold blooded murder in another country.

[Hibbyradge]

Exactly what you’re doing. You want a better UK economy at any cost. Even if it’s achieved through cold blooded murder in another country.

Pathetic.

Stop trolling.

[Future17]

What people fail to realise is that it was the plumaging of the Middle East that temporarily boosted the UK economy. To say you want a New Labour type government again is to say that you’re happy with us stripping another country bare on a lie if it temporarily improves the UK economy.

We should never want a New Labour type government again, ever.

It's ironic that you think this was done to feather our own nest. :greengrin

[Smartie]

What people fail to realise is that it was the plumaging of the Middle East that temporarily boosted the UK economy. To say you want a New Labour type government again is to say that you’re happy with us stripping another country bare on a lie if it temporarily improves the UK economy.

We should never want a New Labour type government again, ever.

We should never want an illegal war again, ever and it is correct to hold the government of the day to account for that.

My lifetime has seen the end of the 70s, Thatcherism, Major's years, New Labour, Cameron's austerity then Theresa's shambles.

Over the piece, New Labour was the pick of that sorry bunch.

Do you honestly prefer the others I have mentioned to New Labour even taking into account the Iraq war?

Like you I would prefer to be having a conversation about government in an independent Scotland, but whilst we're part of the UK I'd say that a New Labour type approach is probably about the best of the various "crap but realistic" ones available.

[Hibbyradge]

We should never want an illegal war again, ever and it is correct to hold the government of the day to account for that.

My lifetime has seen the end of the 70s, Thatcherism, Major's years, New Labour, Cameron's austerity then Theresa's shambles.

Over the piece, New Labour was the pick of that sorry bunch.

Do you honestly prefer the others I have mentioned to New Labour even taking into account the Iraq war?

Like you I would prefer to be having a conversation about government in an independent Scotland, but whilst we're part of the UK I'd say that a New Labour type approach is probably about the best of the various "crap but realistic" ones available.

I agree with you, but I doubt you'll get much concensus from FH.

He is happy that the SNP helped Thatcher get elected, and he prefers Boris Johnson to New Labour.

And there was me thinking that calling a nationalist a "Tartan Tory" was a slur.

It seems in this case, it's a badge of honour.

[lord bunberry]

No. He was a candidate.
You’re right it was Sadiq Khan I was thinking about.

[ronaldo7]

The recession in 2008 blootered Brown's economic strategies and his revenue predictions were rendered completely wrong.

Brown was never a popular leader. His unfortunate mannerisms and forced smile, made him hard to warm to. The Tories did everything they could to blame him for the credit crunch although it was a global phenomenon and Brown took us out of it.

As much as people blame Iraq for Labour's decline, I think that Brown and the recession were at least equally to blame.

The anger over Iraq in the country was mostly aimed at Tony Blair and he had already resigned as PM.

Whether we care to admit it or not, people can turn blind eyes to issues that don't affect them directly, as long as their own situation is a happy one.

And back to my point on competency. Sold the gold at its lowest ebb for yonks, and we're still paying for those hospitals and schools with those catastrophic PFI deals

[Fife-Hibee]

We should never want an illegal war again, ever and it is correct to hold the government of the day to account for that.

My lifetime has seen the end of the 70s, Thatcherism, Major's years, New Labour, Cameron's austerity then Theresa's shambles.

Over the piece, New Labour was the pick of that sorry bunch.

Do you honestly prefer the others I have mentioned to New Labour even taking into account the Iraq war?

Like you I would prefer to be having a conversation about government in an independent Scotland, but whilst we're part of the UK I'd say that a New Labour type approach is probably about the best of the various "crap but realistic" ones available.

You're missing the point. The economy wouldn't have been anywhere near as strong under New Labour if they hadn't collaborated with the US to invade and seize control of oil production in Iraq, thus impacting it's market value on the world stage.

A New Labour government would only be as economically succesful now if it commited the same crime again. Is that really acceptable in your view? Should the blood of another nation yet again fuel the UK economy? Who's it going to be? Venezuela or Iran?

[Colr]

What people fail to realise is that it was the plumaging of the Middle East that temporarily boosted the UK economy. To say you want a New Labour type government again is to say that you’re happy with us stripping another country bare on a lie if it temporarily improves the UK economy.

We should never want a New Labour type government again, ever.

I rather suspect our involvement in the Middle East has cost us rather a a lot of money.

The economic boost was on the back of too much cheap money released by the banks. (again) as well encomic recovery fllowing Tory austerity of 1991 - 1997

[Hibbyradge]

And back to my point on competency. Sold the gold at its lowest ebb for yonks, and we're still paying for those hospitals and schools with those catastrophic PFI deals

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The decision to sell gold had a lot of support as well as detractors.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html

I'm not trying to defend Labour's mistakes, but they did a lot of good for the population during their 13 year term.

Every government makes mistakes and will eventually pay the price by losing power.

Having said that, if Labour doesn't up its game, the Tories could be in power for ever!

[Colr]

No. He was a candidate.

Came second then knew the writing was on the wall.

[Fife-Hibee]

I rather suspect our involvement in the Middle East has cost us rather a a lot of money.

The economic boost was on the back of too much cheap money released by the banks. (again) as well encomic recovery fllowing Tory austerity of 1991 - 1997

In the long run I agree. However, Blairs administration were all about boosting the economy temporarily and leaving a long term ****storm for whoever took over next. Their quick gain approach was very thatcheresque. But instead of flogging off publicly own assets and industries to make quick gains, they joined forces with the US to manipulate certain markets.

[Smartie]

You're missing the point. The economy wouldn't have been anywhere near as strong under New Labour if they hadn't collaborated with the US to invade and seize control of oil production in Iraq, thus impacting it's market value on the world stage.

A New Labour government would only be as economically succesful now if it commited the same crime again. Is that really acceptable in your view? Should the blood of another nation yet again fuel the UK economy? Who's it going to be? Venezuela or Iran?

Blair came to power in 1997. The Iraq war didn't start until 2003. The global financial crisis came to a head in 2008.

What happened between 1996 and 2003 without us reaping the benefits of Iraqi misery?

The economy jumped off a cliff in 2008.

So if events unfolded as you describe, we must have had a pretty good 2003-2008 based on all that misery.

Really?

And again, at risk of being misunderstood, the Iraq war was an aberration of which our country should be ashamed.

[Colr]

You’re right it was Sadiq Khan I was thinking about.

These are the MPs who nominated Corbyn


Diane Abbott, MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington
Rushanara Ali, MP for Bethnal Green and Bow
Margaret Beckett, MP for Derby South
Richard Burgon, MP for Leeds East
Dawn Butler MP, for Brent Central
Ronnie Campbell, MP for Blyth Valley
Sarah Champion, MP for Rotherham
Jo Cox, MP for Batley and Spen
Neil Coyle, MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark
Jon Cruddas, MP for Dagenham
Clive Efford, MP for Eltham
Frank Field, MP for Birkenhead
Louise Haigh, MP for Sheffield, Heeley
Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North
Rupa Huq, MP for Ealing Central and Acton
Imran Hussain, MP for Bradford East
Huw Irranca-Davies, MP for Ogmore
Sadiq Khan, MP for Tooting
David Lammy, MP for Tottenham
Clive Lewis MP, for Norwich South
Rebecca Long-Bailey, MP for Salford and Eccles
Gordon Marsden, MP for Blackpool South
John McDonnell, MP for Hayes and Harlington
Michael Meacher, MP for Oldham West and Royton
Grahame Morris, MP for Easington
Chi Onwurah, MP for Newcastle Upon Tyne Central
Kate Osamor, MP for Edmonton
Tulip Siddiq, MP for Hampstead and Kilburn
Dennis Skinner, MP for Bolsover
Cat Smith, MP for Lancaster and Fleetwood
Andrew Smith, MP for Oxford East
Gareth Thomas, MP for Harrow West
Emily Thornberry, MP for Islington South and Finsbury
Jon Trickett, MP for Hemsworth
Catherine West, MP for Hornsey and Wood Green

[Fife-Hibee]

Blair came to power in 1997. The Iraq war didn't start until 2003. The global financial crisis came to a head in 2008.

What happened between 1996 and 2003 without us reaping the benefits of Iraqi misery?

The economy jumped off a cliff in 2008.

So if events unfolded as you describe, we must have had a pretty good 2003-2008 based on all that misery.

Really?

And again, at risk of being misunderstood, the Iraq war was an aberration of which our country should be ashamed.

We did have a pretty good 2003-2008 and here's why.

Crude oil price chart from Jan 2003 to Dec 2008:
https://i.ibb.co/M6cNJ1V/crudegrowth.png

[Colr]

In the long run I agree. However, Blairs administration were all about boosting the economy temporarily and leaving a long term ****storm for whoever took over next. Their quick gain approach was very thatcheresque. But instead of flogging off publicly own assets and industries to make quick gains, they joined forces with the US to manipulate certain markets.

It wasn't all about that.

They boosted public spending considerably. If anything, they held back too long before doing so then splurged cash too indiscriminately so many public bodies (NHS and Councils) didn't spend it well. They could do this due to the economy being in good shape and because people were confident to spend.

[Colr]

We did have a pretty good 2003-2008 and here's why.

Crude oil price chart from Jan 2003 to Dec 2008:
https://i.ibb.co/M6cNJ1V/crudegrowth.png

Not really. Oil revenues are the smaller part of government income (notwithstanding the fact that the UK government has wasted them).

[Fife-Hibee]

Not really. Oil revenues are the smaller part of government income (notwithstanding the fact that the UK government has wasted them).

It may only make up a fraction of UK Governments total intake. But at the time, it was a significant fraction.

[Smartie]

We did have a pretty good 2003-2008 and here's why.

Crude oil price chart from Jan 2003 to Dec 2008:
https://i.ibb.co/M6cNJ1V/crudegrowth.png

Anything to say about the 7 years prior to that chart starting? Were we miserable for 7 years waiting for the blood to start flowing?

[RyeSloan]

We did have a pretty good 2003-2008 and here's why.

Crude oil price chart from Jan 2003 to Dec 2008:
https://i.ibb.co/M6cNJ1V/crudegrowth.png

Your economic theory needs a bit of revision if you think high oil prices are generally good for economies.

And for the record the UK became a net importer of energy in 2004.

[Fife-Hibee]

Anything to say about the 7 years prior to that chart starting? Were we miserable for 7 years waiting for the blood to start flowing?

The New Labour government borrowed far more in those 7 years. They knew Iraq was in the pipeline.


Your economic theory needs a bit of revision if you think high oil prices are generally good for economies.

And for the record the UK became a net importer of energy in 2004.

A net importer from where exactly? :hmmm:

[RyeSloan]

The New Labour government borrowed far more in those 7 years. They knew Iraq was in the pipeline.



A net importer from where exactly? :hmmm:

Aside from the fact you’ve (shock horror) completely missed the point that your assertion regarding rising oil prices being a positive outcome for the UK is bollocks and (double shock horror) avoided commenting on that the answer is, largely from Norway.

Yup that hot bed of insurrection and orchestrator of world evil Norway has been the biggest beneficiary of the UK’s energy import requirements.

[ronaldo7]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The decision to sell gold had a lot of support as well as detractors.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html

I'm not trying to defend Labour's mistakes, but they did a lot of good for the population during their 13 year term.

Every government makes mistakes and will eventually pay the price by losing power.

Having said that, if Labour doesn't up its game, the Tories could be in power for ever!

I know they did some decent things in power, but let's not sugar coat it. As I said, I'd rather have labour in power at Westminster, but it's not looking too likely at the moment. Indy is always the goal for me now. It's about time, Labour in Scotland wise up, and get onboard.

[Hibbyradge]

I know they did some decent things in power, but let's not sugar coat it. As I said, I'd rather have labour in power at Westminster, but it's not looking too likely at the moment. Indy is always the goal for me now. It's about time, Labour in Scotland wise up, and get onboard.

I'm not sugar coating it, just putting things in perspective. I previously posted a long list of Labour's successes and I wasn't intending doing so again, but I will if it helps! :greengrin

I agree with everything else you said.

If Boris gets the gig, and takes the UK out of the EU, particularly without a deal, I think independence will follow shortly afterwards.

He can say what he likes about not granting a referendum. The reality is that if he refuses, it would just further antagonise the Scottish electorate thereby making independence more of a certainty.

[Ozyhibby]

Still neck and neck with the Tories. Corbyn doing a magnificent job.[emoji849]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190621/50de41284ce69b0191ce8fb36d0df351.jpg


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[lapsedhibee]

If Boris gets the gig, and takes the UK out of the EU, particularly without a deal, I think independence will follow shortly afterwards.

I was beginning to think so too, but then I got a very glossy leaflet through the door from Ni-gel, Ni-gel and his EFDD explaining how Scots don't really like the EU. And a clear majority in his poll agreed that regardless of the Brexit outcome, Scotland's best prospects for economic growth are to remain a part of the UK.

[Colr]

David Miliband on Andrew Marr Show reminding us what we're missing.

[Fife-Hibee]

David Miliband on Andrew Marr Show reminding us what we're missing.

Another middle east warmonger?

[neil7908]

I like Corbyn. I disagree with him on Brexit but I also think he's trying to make the best of an impossible situation. He has also largely avoided the Tory approach of promising things that will categorically never happen. He's had zero support from his party from day one, even though he's been responsible for moving Labour back to the left, where it belongs.

I find it staggering and incredibly sad that anyone young or on the left would vote for the Lid Dems. I tried that once and got a Tory led Government that brought us austerity, increased tuition fees and directly led us to our current predicament.

It'll be a long time before I ever consider giving them my vote.

I've drifted towards the Greens now but would vote Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow.

[Smartie]

I like Corbyn. I disagree with him on Brexit but I also think he's trying to make the best of an impossible situation. He has also largely avoided the Tory approach of promising things that will categorically never happen. He's had zero support from his party from day one, even though he's been responsible for moving Labour back to the left, where it belongs.

I find it staggering and incredibly sad that anyone young or on the left would vote for the Lid Dems. I tried that once and got a Tory led Government that brought us austerity, increased tuition fees and directly led us to our current predicament.

It'll be a long time before I ever consider giving them my vote.

I've drifted towards the Greens now but would vote Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow.

I like Corbyn. I don't rate him as a leader or politician.

There have been people in the past who I have disliked, but whose decisiveness and authority I have respected. The government of the day is a shambles and the opposition have barely laid a glove on them - the fear of pissing people off and losing voters has blinded the Labour party to the opportunity that exists to get back into government. Whichever shade of left-wing that is, it is always preferable to the Tories.

[Hibbyradge]

I like Corbyn. I disagree with him on Brexit but I also think he's trying to make the best of an impossible situation. He has also largely avoided the Tory approach of promising things that will categorically never happen. He's had zero support from his party from day one, even though he's been responsible for moving Labour back to the left, where it belongs.

I find it staggering and incredibly sad that anyone young or on the left would vote for the Lid Dems. I tried that once and got a Tory led Government that brought us austerity, increased tuition fees and directly led us to our current predicament.



What has Corbyn tried to achieve for which he's received zero support? :dunno:

People are turning to the Lib Dems because they have a clear remain policy on Brexit. It's the single most important issue facing the country right now and Labour doesn't know what it wants.

That's a disgrace.

[Fife-Hibee]

What has Corbyn tried to achieve for which he's received zero support? :dunno:

People are turning to the Lib Dems because they have a clear remain policy on Brexit. It's the single most important issue facing the country right now and Labour doesn't know what it wants.

That's a disgrace.

Labour wants not to lose more voters, but knows that they will, regardless of who they side with. Just shows that they're a party that cares more about voter numbers than having a principled stance.

[neil7908]

What has Corbyn tried to achieve for which he's received zero support? :dunno:

People are turning to the Lib Dems because they have a clear remain policy on Brexit. It's the single most important issue facing the country right now and Labour doesn't know what it wants.

That's a disgrace.

Literally ever since he won the nomination he's had MPs after him. He was challenged for leadership by Eagles and Smith despite the having massive backing from the Labour Party members. Remarkably all these MPs are horrified by Corbyn but were quite happy to vote for the Iraq War and comfortable in the party despite the horrors that unfolded.

As much as I despite the Republicans, they got behind Trump once it was clear he was going to win the nomination and have supported him. Labour just decided they didn't like the person their own members picked and decided to undermine him any way possible.

I don't agree with his Brexit policy but the Lib Dems got us here. They propped up a Tory Government, voted for austerity and led the country to where we are now.

I honestly can't think of any Labour MP at the moment that would inspire any confidence in me.

[Hibbyradge]

Literally ever since he won the nomination he's had MPs after him. He was challenged for leadership by Eagles and Smith despite the having massive backing from the Labour Party members. Remarkably all these MPs are horrified by Corbyn but were quite happy to vote for the Iraq War and comfortable in the party despite the horrors that unfolded.

As much as I despite the Republicans, they got behind Trump once it was clear he was going to win the nomination and have supported him. Labour just decided they didn't like the person their own members picked and decided to undermine him any way possible.

I don't agree with his Brexit policy but the Lib Dems got us here. They propped up a Tory Government, voted for austerity and led the country to where we are now.

I honestly can't think of any Labour MP at the moment that would inspire any confidence in me.

That's all cool, but what has Corbyn tried to achieve that he's not had backing for? Which policy direction has been opposed?

The answer should be explanatory.

[Ozyhibby]

Watching the debate on Scotland Tonight and the Labour Party is not even represented.
How did it come to this?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190627/a437b425f45e58028aaac85a19c474e8.jpg
Still trailing the Tories. Hard to think of a worse leader than Corbyn.


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[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48790803

Mind-boggling that they've let this guy back in when the party is in the midst of an investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. All Corbyn can come up with is 'I wasn't involved'. Carries echoes of his comments about the wreath-laying furore. 'I was present but not involved.' That statement sums up his 'leadership'.

[Fife-Hibee]

I was present but not involved.' That statement sums up his 'leadership'.

Along with the Conservative leadership and their "running" of the UK economy.

[Crunchie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48790803

Mind-boggling that they've let this guy back in when the party is in the midst of an investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. All Corbyn can come up with is 'I wasn't involved'. Carries echoes of his comments about the wreath-laying furore. 'I was present but not involved.' That statement sums up his 'leadership'.


With him, Abbot and Thornberry at the helm, the people of the United Kingdom are safe. The raving loony party have more chance of winning a general election than that lot.

[Hiber-nation]

Chris Williamson saga goes on and on. About time Keith Vaz was back in the news I suppose.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48806066

[Pretty Boy]

Chris Williamson saga goes on and on. About time Keith Vaz was back in the news I suppose.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48806066

An I reading that article correctly? Is it suggesting that Vaz essentially voted with his career in mind rather than his conscience?

[Colr]

An I reading that article correctly? Is it suggesting that Vaz essentially voted with his career in mind rather than his conscience?

Not sure I understand this. Am I right to say that Keith Vaz was part of the three person panel which allowed Williamson back in? His complaint is that the judgement was leaked and then overturned. Is that correct?

[Pretty Boy]

Not sure I understand this. Am I right to say that Keith Vaz was part of the three person panel which allowed Williamson back in? His complaint is that the judgement was leaked and then overturned. Is that correct?

I read it as saying he voted to allow him back in as he, apparently mistakenly, believed that would please Corbyn. Now his part in the decision has been leaked and there has been a backlash he wants to restart the process.

[Colr]

I read it as saying he voted to allow him back in as he, apparebtly mistakenly, believed that would please Corbyn. Now his part in thw decision has been leaked and there has been a backlash he wants to restart the process.

Surely, the whole judgement, process and reasoning should be a public record or how can anyone have faith in it.

[heretoday]

Now Corbyn is calling for an inquiry into the frailty stuff. What a waste of space. He should laugh it off and turn it to his advantage. We haven'r got time for inquiries when all the Brexit crap is flying about.

[G B Young]

Now Corbyn is calling for an inquiry into the frailty stuff. What a waste of space. He should laugh it off and turn it to his advantage. We haven'r got time for inquiries when all the Brexit crap is flying about.

Corbyn to step down in the autumn due to failing health according to that Times report.

[Moulin Yarns]

Corbyn to step down in the autumn due to failing health according to that Times report.

Everything I've heard since this (non) story broke suggesting the Corbyn is fitter than others half his age. And you shouldn't read the Times :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

Everything I've heard since this (non) story broke suggesting the Corbyn is fitter than others half his age. And you shouldn't read the Times :wink:

I reckon he was a relatively fit chap when he first got the gig. But those wounds in the back must be taking their toll on him now.

[Moulin Yarns]

I reckon he was a relatively fit chap when he first got the gig. But those wounds in the back must be taking their toll on him now.

Et tu :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I reckon he was a relatively fit chap when he first got the gig. But those wounds in the back must be taking their toll on him now.

I reckon being in the constant presence of Seamas Milne for the last few years is the likeliest cause. That must just desiccate you.

[Bristolhibby]

Literally ever since he won the nomination he's had MPs after him. He was challenged for leadership by Eagles and Smith despite the having massive backing from the Labour Party members. Remarkably all these MPs are horrified by Corbyn but were quite happy to vote for the Iraq War and comfortable in the party despite the horrors that unfolded.

As much as I despite the Republicans, they got behind Trump once it was clear he was going to win the nomination and have supported him. Labour just decided they didn't like the person their own members picked and decided to undermine him any way possible.

I don't agree with his Brexit policy but the Lib Dems got us here. They propped up a Tory Government, voted for austerity and led the country to where we are now.

I honestly can't think of any Labour MP at the moment that would inspire any confidence in me.

No, the Tories got us here. The Tory’s are rubbing their hands that you blame the Lib Dem’s.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

No, the Tories got us here. The Tory’s are rubbing their hands that you blame the Lib Dem’s.

J

The Lib Dems just gave them a wee helping hand on their way, that's all.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190704/b0f73f30fa8da76dbe24c4ad738c2790.jpg
Corbyn’s long term plan going great.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190704/b0f73f30fa8da76dbe24c4ad738c2790.jpg
Corbyn’s long term plan going great.


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Bloody hell. Wonder what result fptp would deliver from that?

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn has also managed to break Michael Foot's 35 year old record for the worst net satisfaction rating of a LOTO in MORI's series. His new low is -58 (17% satisfied, 75% dissatisfied).

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn has also managed to break Michael Foot's 35 year old record for the worst net satisfaction rating of a LOTO in MORI's series. His new low is -58 (17% satisfied, 75% dissatisfied).

How low do they have to go before the Labour Party act?


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[Fife-Hibee]

How low do they have to go before the Labour Party act?


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Who are they going to replace him with and what exactly is the next incumbent going to do to change their fortunes?

[Ozyhibby]

Who are they going to replace him with and what exactly is the next incumbent going to do to change their fortunes?

Put a pro remain centrist leader in there like Cooper and a 100 seat majority awaits them.


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[The Modfather]

Who are they going to replace him with and what exactly is the next incumbent going to do to change their fortunes?

I’d give the gig to Tornadoes70. He wouldn’t do any worse and would certainly be entertaining 😀

[JeMeSouviens]

Put a pro remain centrist leader in there like Cooper and a 100 seat majority awaits them.


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It's SO ****ING OBVIOUS it hurts.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure where the original posts about the paratroopers using a photo of Corbyn are but they have been disciplined. 2 demoted.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48868071

[Fife-Hibee]

Put a pro remain centrist leader in there like Cooper and a 100 seat majority awaits them.


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Would it? Would people just leap back over to Labour from the Lib Dems just like that? Even knowing that the Labour Party still contain Brexit supporting MPs?

I'm not so sure they would. The damage to Labour is irreversible in my opinion.

[Ozyhibby]

Would it? Would people just leap back over to Labour from the Lib Dems just like that? Even knowing that the Labour Party still contain Brexit supporting MPs?

I'm not so sure they would. The damage to Labour is irreversible in my opinion.

The damage to the Lib Dems was irreversible up until about two months ago. There is a way back for Labour. It just needs a bit of smarts from their members.


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[G B Young]

Corbyn has also managed to break Michael Foot's 35 year old record for the worst net satisfaction rating of a LOTO in MORI's series. His new low is -58 (17% satisfied, 75% dissatisfied).

It's extraordinary how an opposition leader can contrive to fare so badly when faced with the most trouble-torn government in recent memory. Little wonder he's been urged to step down:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-step-down-call-labour-historic-low/

[Colr]

Would it? Would people just leap back over to Labour from the Lib Dems just like that? Even knowing that the Labour Party still contain Brexit supporting MPs?

I'm not so sure they would. The damage to Labour is irreversible in my opinion.

Would work for me.

I'll never vote Tory now under any circumstances but there's a way back for Labour (for now).

[Pete]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/07/05/noam-chomsky-backs-chris-williamson-and-calls-the-antisemitism-smear-campaign-an-insult-to-the-memory-of-holocaust-victims/amp/

:agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

Centrist Tory Matthew d'Ancona in the Graun:


Whether he likes it or not, this is the great opportunity of Corbyn’s leadership: one he did not seek, but with which he is confronted nonetheless. The goal is two miles wide. The goalkeeper lies unconscious on the pitch. The ball is two inches away from the line. And – thus far – Corbyn’s instinct has been to nudge the ball feebly to the left, promising only to consult his members and the unions on the extent to which goal-scoring is consistent with authentic socialism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/08/labour-centre-ground-jeremy-corbyn

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/08/labour-centre-ground-jeremy-corbyn?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


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[Pete]

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/the-establishment-is-in-full-flow-attack-mode-against-labours-radical-direction-findlay-says

Sums it up nicely 👍🏼

[RyeSloan]

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/the-establishment-is-in-full-flow-attack-mode-against-labours-radical-direction-findlay-says

Sums it up nicely [emoji1360]

Ahh yes the old establishment rote.

Nothing to do with them being completely inept of course and Jeremy being useless on Brexit (no matter the rest of their ‘transformative’ plans), nope nothing to do with that at all...it’s that pesky establishment again.

[Pete]

The main parties have both suffered due to the Brexit situation and can’t win in a way. However:

“Dear Peter,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories' Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit – or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the few.

Jeremy Corbyn”

[JeMeSouviens]

The main parties have both suffered due to the Brexit situation and can’t win in a way. However:

“Dear Peter,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories' Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit – or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the few.

Jeremy Corbyn”


He's probably right if this had happened in 2016/17. It's hopelessly out of touch now. By far the most popular Leave option over any compromise is a suicidal no deal. And any compromise is regarded by a significant core of Leavers as sell out, betrayal, brexit-in-name-only, etc. On the other side, Remainers who (with varying degrees of reluctance) accepted that the referendum result should be implemented were completely ignored and are well and truly scunnered by the idiocy of the Brexiters and just want the whole thing cancelled.

There's no bring-the-country-together middle ground space left. They need to pick a side and get on with it.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's extraordinary how an opposition leader can contrive to fare so badly when faced with the most trouble-torn government in recent memory. Little wonder he's been urged to step down:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-step-down-call-labour-historic-low/

The best thing he could do for his party, and country, would be to step down. But he won't.

[Colr]

So, the new position is that if the Tories are in power he will call for a referendum, which of course they cannot deliver because they are bit in government. If Labour are in power they will negotiate a Brexit.

They must think we are stupid.

[RyeSloan]

So, the new position is that if the Tories are in power he will call for a referendum, which of course they cannot deliver because they are bit in government. If Labour are in power they will negotiate a Brexit.

They must think we are stupid.

It’s beyond parody.

What a disaster Corbyn has been for the Labour Party and the country.

Not that anyone could have seen that coming of course, he always seemed such an upright guy with a clear modern agenda.

[G B Young]

Corbyn continues to get to grips with the anti-Semitism issue I see:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48923671

Although these resignations are likely to be no more than a gentle warm-up for the furore tonight's Panorama programme is likely to cause:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006p8c

[southsider]

Corbyn continues to get to grips with the anti-Semitism issue I see:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48923671

Although these resignations are likely to be no more than a gentle warm-up for the furore tonight's Panorama programme is likely to cause:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006p8c
This is just the pro-jew lobby in the Tory press trying to cause agro in The Labour party. It will not make one blind bit of difference what happens to Brexit. Now that does mater and thousands of jobs are at risk.

[G B Young]

This is just the pro-jew lobby in the Tory press trying to cause agro in The Labour party. It will not make one blind bit of difference what happens to Brexit. Now that does mater and thousands of jobs are at risk.

A backlog of over 1,000 allegations of anti-Semitism within the party is more than just a bit of 'aggro':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48929244

These purges of Labour Party officials by the clique which surrounds Corbyn are Stalinist in nature. Milne and Fornby sound especially odious types - the sort whose worldview came to a halt around 1975.

It's a relief that the electorate does not appear to share that archaic ideology.

[Ozyhibby]

This Panorama program is damming. Labour is now a racist anti-semitic party. And it’s all happening with Corbyn’s blessing.


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[Fife-Hibee]

This Panorama program is damming. Labour is now a racist anti-semitic party. And it’s all happening with Corbyn’s blessing.


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Next week on the BBC....

A damning panorama of that wicked anglophobe Nicola Sturgeon. (Cheap shots and eerie background music included.)

[Ozyhibby]

Next week on the BBC....

A damning panorama of that wicked anglophobe Nicola Sturgeon. (Cheap shots and eerie background music included.)

Are you saying it’s not true?


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[lord bunberry]

I think there’s a definite agenda by Israel to label anyone that criticises Israel’s policy in Palestine as being anti Semitic. I’m not saying the Labour Party don’t have a problem with this, but I’m hugely sceptical about the motives of the accusers and the way the story has been covered.

[Fife-Hibee]

Are you saying it’s not true?


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Do I think Corbyn is anti-Jewish? Absolutely not.

Does he despise the Israeli state and the power they weild at the top of the politicial and corporate ladder? Absolutely. As do I.

If these "documentaries" tell us anything, it's just how much influence they have in the media as well. They don't even attempt balance here. Just look at all of the shots of Corbyn thoughout that whole thing.... zoomed in, washed out colours with eerie music in the background. It was like watching an episode of crime watch.

[Pete]

This Panorama program is damming. Labour is now a racist anti-semitic party. And it’s all happening with Corbyn’s blessing.


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🤣

[G B Young]

Do I think Corbyn is anti-Jewish? Absolutely not.

Does he despise the Israeli state and the power they weild at the top of the politicial and corporate ladder? Absolutely. As do I.

If these "documentaries" tell us anything, it's just how much influence they have in the media as well. They don't even attempt balance here. Just look at all of the shots of Corbyn thoughout that whole thing.... zoomed in, washed out colours with eerie music in the background. It was like watching an episode of crime watch.

Hard to balance things when Corbyn and his cronies rejected the invitation to take part in the programme. Instead they send along a stooge to parrot the mantra that because Jeremy has been opposed to racism 'in all its forms' for his entire life he therefore can't be anti-Semitic. Simple as that, Jeremy's 'in the clear'. It's a convenient camouflage for any left-leaning politico type when it comes to this issue.

What I found most disturbing about the programme was how many young party members and officials who had joined the party after Corbyn became leader had seen their optimism and enthusiasm completely knocked out of them by the toxic climate in which the leadership operates. They have made a bold call to ignore the NDAs they signed and speak out as it's not hard to imagine the kind of abuse they're likely to have subjected themselves to now. As for those NDAs, Labour's approach here has been hypocritical in the extreme as the Channel 4 FactCheck makes all too clear:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-contradict-themselves-on-non-disclosure-agreements

Labour's entire stance on this issue has been a disgrace and Corbyn, not to mention his poisonous core allies, should be considering their positions for the good of the party as the documentary will hopefully have opened a few more eyes to the type of people these would-be leaders of the next government really are.

[Fife-Hibee]

Hard to balance things when Corbyn and his cronies rejected the invitation to take part in the programme. Instead they send along a stooge to parrot the mantra that because Jeremy has been opposed to racism 'in all its forms' for his entire life he therefore can't be anti-Semitic. Simple as that, Jeremy's 'in the clear'. It's a convenient camouflage for any left-leaning politico type when it comes to this issue.

What I found most disturbing about the programme was how many young party members and officials who had joined the party after Corbyn became leader had seen their optimism and enthusiasm completely knocked out of them by the toxic climate in which the leadership operates. They have made a bold call to ignore the NDAs they signed and speak out as it's not hard to imagine the kind of abuse they're likely to have subjected themselves to now. As for those NDAs, Labour's approach here has been hypocritical in the extreme as the Channel 4 FactCheck makes all too clear:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-labour-contradict-themselves-on-non-disclosure-agreements

Labour's entire stance on this issue has been a disgrace and Corbyn, not to mention his poisonous core allies, should be considering their positions for the good of the party as the documentary will hopefully have opened a few more eyes to the type of people these would-be leaders of the next government really are.

This "documentary" didn't open any eyes. It just closed more eyes for the hard of thinking. If Corbyn was such an evil anti-semitic boogieman, then why did they have to try and milk it with zoomed in angle shots, washed out colours and eerie background music? Why the dramatic effects?

They were trying so hard in that documentary to hit home that Corbyn is anti-semitic. Why? If he is anti-semitic, then they should be able to get that message across effortlessly without setting a dramatic tone throughout the whole programme.

I'm just surprised they didn't play GSTQ during the rolling credits to remind us all how anti-patriotic he is as well.

As for the NDAs. Do you honestly believe for one moment that Labour are the only politicial party in the UK who make use of these? You don't think your beloved tories have ever used NDAs to keep people quiet and force them to respect confidentiality agreements? Why are Labour the only party being singled out for its usage? I personally don't agree with their use, but Labour are not the only party involved here.

[Ozyhibby]

This "documentary" didn't open any eyes. It just closed more eyes for the hard of thinking. If Corbyn was such an evil anti-semitic boogieman, then why did they have to try and milk it with zoomed in angle shots, washed out colours and eerie background music? Why the dramatic effects?

They were trying so hard in that documentary to hit home that Corbyn is anti-semitic. Why? If he is anti-semitic, then they should be able to get that message across effortlessly without setting a dramatic tone throughout the whole programme.

I'm just surprised they didn't play GSTQ during the rolling credits to remind us all how anti-patriotic he is as well.

As for the NDAs. Do you honestly believe for one moment that Labour are the only politicial party in the UK who make use of these? You don't think your beloved tories have ever used NDAs to keep people quiet and force them to respect confidentiality agreements? Why are Labour the only party being singled out for its usage? I personally don't agree with their use, but Labour are not the only party involved here.

Are Labour not opposed to NDA’s though as official workers rights policy?


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[Fife-Hibee]

Are Labour not opposed to NDA’s though as official workers rights policy?


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I don't know what the exact detailing is behind the official workers rights policy. I just know that people sign confidentiality agreements when working within politicial parties and NDA's make it harder for them to breach those agreements if there is a real risk of them doing so.

But I think it's always important to remember that information can easily be twisted and misconstrued to suit an agenda. Just because you get "whistle blowers" who come out and say certain things, doesn't necessarily mean that the narrative they're putting out there would necessarily be the narrative of a neutral if they had been able to view the situation for themselves.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190710/31433d8750475b0f0782ea3cef815b55.jpg


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[GORDONSMITH7]

A backlog of over 1,000 allegations of anti-Semitism within the party is more than just a bit of 'aggro':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48929244

These purges of Labour Party officials by the clique which surrounds Corbyn are Stalinist in nature. Milne and Fornby sound especially odious types - the sort whose worldview came to a halt around 1975.

It's a relief that the electorate does not appear to share that archaic ideology.

With due respect it is about time you put the crappy Sun in yer bucket amigo like 500,000 Scousers.

You could put as many allegations forward amigo. I take it you are not a Party Member. How can it be established that it is 1000 Party members do they show their card membership number?
Estimated 0.016 of 505000 member. How does that stack up against a vocal minority giving racsist ***** about Rudi Skacel at Carlisle, make Hibernian FC a rascist club?
Away with ye dafty.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190710/31433d8750475b0f0782ea3cef815b55.jpg


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Of course, this is someone with no agenda at all.

It's not like she's eyeing up the prize of leadership or anything.

:faf:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Of course, this is someone with no agenda at all.

It's not like she's eyeing up the prize of leadership or anything.

:faf:


she would be a more acceptable leader of the anti-semite party than the present incumbent

[Fife-Hibee]

she would be a more acceptable leader of the anti-semite party than the present incumbent

Perhaps in terms of gaining greater vote share. But only after reforming the Labour Party to a point where they're no longer the Labour Party. She's a bit too cozy with Israel to be trusted.

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps in terms of gaining greater vote share. But only after reforming the Labour Party to a point where they're no longer the Labour Party. She's a bit too cozy with Israel to be trusted.

So the party is now one of protest and not of power? And a racist anti-Semite one at that. A bit like the BNP.


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[Fife-Hibee]

So the party is now one of protest and not of power? And a racist anti-Semite one at that. A bit like the BNP.


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Where is the conclusive evidence of racism or anti-semitism within the Labour Party? All we've heard are claims of this, but without any real definitive evidence. The argument that Corbyn is anti-semitic because he doesn't approve of the Israeli regime is beyond poor. It's more than likely that there have been arguments within the Labour Party between jewish members and other members of the party over Israeli's treatment of Palestine and the disproportionate level of power they weild in western media. That doesn't translate to "anti-semitism" as it can't be considered a direct attack on the Jewish faith itself, no matter how much their influence in the media tries to twist it that way.

I'm no supporter of Labour. But comparing them to the BNP is laughable. The BNP are far more in line with the tories with their openly racist leaders.

[southsider]

Perhaps Jewish people should try attacking the British State rather than the Labour Party. No Jew can be PM of the UK ( or RC too for that matter). It is 2019 and this must now be illegal. Why is this allowed ?

[Pretty Boy]

Perhaps Jewish people should try attacking the British State rather than the Labour Party. No Jew can be PM of the UK ( or RC too for that matter). It is 2019 and this must now be illegal. Why is this allowed ?

Not strictly true. There is no actual law that forbids either a Catholic or Jew from becoming PM. It is a potential conflict of interest though as the PM is expected to advise the Monarch on ecclesiastical appointments and policy relating to the CofE. If the situation arose there would likely be something of a constituional crisis, although I believe the Lord Chancellor (I think) can substitute for the PM if required.

The Test Act which required all public servants in England to declare they did not believe in transubstantiation, and thus reject Catholic theology, was repealed as part of the Catholic emancipation acts of the 19th century. Likewise the Act of Settlement does not expressly forbid a Catholic or Jew being PM, although it does prevent them marrying a Monarch or heir to the throne.

There have been 2 occasions on which someone with family history from outwith the Church of England or Church of Scotland has been PM. Benjamin Disraeli was Jewish but had long since converted to Anglicanism, possibly with an eye on his career, and Margaret Thatcher had been raised a Methodist but again elected to convert.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://i.ibb.co/bgnHkFd/Untitled.png

https://twitter.com/fussydolphin/status/1149244848672780288/photo/1

Actual episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3dn-VV3czc

[JeMeSouviens]

Where is the conclusive evidence of racism or anti-semitism within the Labour Party? All we've heard are claims of this, but without any real definitive evidence. The argument that Corbyn is anti-semitic because he doesn't approve of the Israeli regime is beyond poor. It's more than likely that there have been arguments within the Labour Party between jewish members and other members of the party over Israeli's treatment of Palestine and the disproportionate level of power they weild in western media. That doesn't translate to "anti-semitism" as it can't be considered a direct attack on the Jewish faith itself, no matter how much their influence in the media tries to twist it that way.

I'm no supporter of Labour. But comparing them to the BNP is laughable. The BNP are far more in line with the tories with their openly racist leaders.

https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241/photo/1

Corbyn has spent his life hanging out with revolutionary opponents of US/Western capitalism wherever he can find them: militant Arabs, the IRA, Castro's Cuba, various Central Americans, Sandanistas, Chavez etc. There are several factors at play from the old anti-Semitic trope that Jewish bankers control the economy in secret (see picture in above link) to Israel, the Jewish state, being a client state of the hated Americans.

There are parallels with Irish Republicanism. Is there anything inherently sectarian or anti-Protestant about the ideal of a united Ireland or about opposing the injustices of the sectarian statelet of Northern Ireland 1921-1972? No, of course not. Is Irish Republicanism riddled with sectarian and anti-Protestant attitudes among its rank and file? You bet.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241/photo/1

Corbyn has spent his life hanging out with revolutionary opponents of US/Western capitalism wherever he can find them: militant Arabs, the IRA, Castro's Cuba, various Central Americans, Sandanistas, Chavez etc. There are several factors at play from the old anti-Semitic trope that Jewish bankers control the economy in secret (see picture in above link) to Israel, the Jewish state, being a client state of the hated Americans.

There are parallels with Irish Republicanism. Is there anything inherently sectarian or anti-Protestant about the ideal of a united Ireland or about opposing the injustices of the sectarian statelet of Northern Ireland 1921-1972? No, of course not. Is Irish Republicanism riddled with sectarian and anti-Protestant attitudes among its rank and file? You bet.

Claiming Jewish bankers control the economy is NOT "anti-Semitic". Is your hatred of the Nazi's "anti-German"? Obviously not. It's not the faith of Judaism itself that is being attacked here. It's the actions of some people who just happen to be jewish and they're using their power and influence to make out that it's an attack on the jewish faith itself, when it's abundantly clear that it's not. I very much doubt Jeremy Corbyn has a bad word to say about the average Jewish follower he comes across on the street.

As for "hanging out" with these groups. What an interesting turn of phrase to use. I suppose Trump was just "hanging out" with Kim Jong Un? Theresa May was just "hanging out" with the Saudi apartheid government? Tony Blair was just "hanging out" with Muammar Gaddafi? Not to mention the Bush administration "hanging out" with the Bin Laden's.

Corbyn's been involved in politics his entire life. Maybe, just maybe, he wasn't simply "hanging out" with them, but instead was trying to help find peaceful resolutions with them so there would be no need for further bloodshed?

[JeMeSouviens]

Claiming Jewish bankers control the economy is NOT "anti-Semitic". Is your hatred of the Nazi's "anti-German"? Obviously not. It's not the faith of Judaism itself that is being attacked here. It's the actions of some people who just happen to be jewish and they're using their power and influence to make out that it's an attack on the jewish faith itself, when it's abundantly clear that it's not. I very much doubt Jeremy Corbyn has a bad word to say about the average Jewish follower he comes across on the street.

As for "hanging out" with these groups. What an interesting turn of phrase to use. I suppose Trump was just "hanging out" with Kim Jong Un? Theresa May was just "hanging out" with the Saudi apartheid government? Tony Blair was just "hanging out" with Muammar Gaddafi? Not to mention the Bush administration "hanging out" with the Bin Laden's.

Corbyn's been involved in politics his entire life. Maybe, just maybe, he wasn't simply "hanging out" with them, but instead was trying to help find peaceful resolutions with them so there would be no need for further bloodshed?

1st para - the point is Jewish bankers *don't* control the economy and the insinuation they do is anti-Semitic. The equivalent would be if I went around insinuating Merkel and the CDU are secret Nazis who are just marking time in the EU until they can fire up the gas chambers. That would be anti-German.

Corbyn has been an active supporter of groups like the IRA, Hamas, etc. not an interested peacemaker. There's a clear and obvious difference.

[Fife-Hibee]

1st para - the point is Jewish bankers *don't* control the economy and the insinuation they do is anti-Semitic. The equivalent would be if I went around insinuating Merkel and the CDU are secret Nazis who are just marking time in the EU until they can fire up the gas chambers. That would be anti-German.

Corbyn has been an active supporter of groups like the IRA, Hamas, etc. not an interested peacemaker. There's a clear and obvious difference.

Do you have conclusive evidence that they don't hold huge sway at the top of the financial pyramid? I'm not suggesting that I have evidence that they do. But it's never been conclusively proven that they don't either. So can't really say for sure one way or another? I just know that some people believe that they do and they have a right to believe that if they wish. Doing so isn't anti-semitic. It's not an attack on the Jewish faith.

However, I've never heard Corbyn explicitly state that Jews, or the Jewish faith are the problem. What I have seen him doing is calling for an overhaul of the draconian banking system which has prompted many prominent figures to come foward in opposition to him. Many who just so happen to be Jewish. :wink:

Also, where is the evidence of Corbyns active support or endorsement of these groups? There's evidence of his engagement with them, but no real context is ever really given on those engagements. Perhaps because proper indepth analysis wouldn't suit the media narrative.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you have conclusive evidence that they don't hold huge sway at the top of the financial pyramid? I'm not suggesting that I have evidence that they do. But it's never been conclusively proven that they don't either. So can't really say for sure one way or another? I just know that some people believe that they do and they have a right to believe that if they wish. Doing so isn't anti-semitic. It's not an attack on the Jewish faith.

However, I've never heard Corbyn explicitly state that Jews, or the Jewish faith are the problem. What I have seen him doing is calling for an overhaul of the draconian banking system which has prompted many prominent figures to come foward in opposition to him. Many who just so happen to be Jewish. :wink:

Also, where is the evidence of Corbyns active support or endorsement of these groups? There's evidence of his engagement with them, but no real context is ever really given on those engagements. Perhaps because proper indepth analysis wouldn't suit the media narrative.

Seriously?

There's plenty of evidence of him engaging with militants whose causes he agrees with (Irish republicans, militant Palestinians etc): inviting them to the HoC, attending their commemorations etc. Funnily enough all the evidence of him engaging with Israelis and Loyalists to further peace has mysteriously gone missing.

[southsider]

An Israeli cabinet minister has just came out with one of the most idiotic statement I have ever heard 'a (American) Jew marrying on non-Jew is as bad as the holocost'. And that goes unchallenged. If Corbyn had said that the press would be in meltdown. If the Israelli army were not murdering children on a daily basis perhaps (some) people would be more sympathetic.

[JeMeSouviens]

An Israeli cabinet minister has just came out with one of the most idiotic statement I have ever heard 'a (American) Jew marrying on non-Jew is as bad as the holocost'. And that goes unchallenged. If Corbyn had said that the press would be in meltdown. If the Israelli army were not murdering children on a daily basis perhaps (some) people would be more sympathetic.

Actually, he said the rate of intermarriage was "like a second Holocaust", ie. the Jewish population is diminishing. Clearly this is a reprehensible and deeply offensive thing to say but the Israeli education minister is hardly likely to become the UK prime minister any time soon. I think offensive comments by Hamas officials etc attract a smiliar-ish level of press attention here, ie. not much.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you have conclusive evidence that they don't hold huge sway at the top of the financial pyramid? I'm not suggesting that I have evidence that they do. But it's never been conclusively proven that they don't either. So can't really say for sure one way or another? I just know that some people believe that they do and they have a right to believe that if they wish. Doing so isn't anti-semitic. It's not an attack on the Jewish faith.

However, I've never heard Corbyn explicitly state that Jews, or the Jewish faith are the problem. What I have seen him doing is calling for an overhaul of the draconian banking system which has prompted many prominent figures to come foward in opposition to him. Many who just so happen to be Jewish. :wink:

Also, where is the evidence of Corbyns active support or endorsement of these groups? There's evidence of his engagement with them, but no real context is ever really given on those engagements. Perhaps because proper indepth analysis wouldn't suit the media narrative.

Is it only Jews who have to prove that they are NOT in control of the world economy? That’s anti-semitism right there.
It’s clear from your post that you are anti-Semitic yourself.


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[Hibbyradge]

This "documentary" didn't open any eyes. It just closed more eyes for the hard of thinking. If Corbyn was such an evil anti-semitic boogieman, then why did they have to try and milk it with zoomed in angle shots, washed out colours and eerie background music? Why the dramatic effects?

They were trying so hard in that documentary to hit home that Corbyn is anti-semitic. Why? If he is anti-semitic, then they should be able to get that message across effortlessly without setting a dramatic tone throughout the whole programme.

I'm just surprised they didn't play GSTQ during the rolling credits to remind us all how anti-patriotic he is as well.

As for the NDAs. Do you honestly believe for one moment that Labour are the only politicial party in the UK who make use of these? You don't think your beloved tories have ever used NDAs to keep people quiet and force them to respect confidentiality agreements? Why are Labour the only party being singled out for its usage? I personally don't agree with their use, but Labour are not the only party involved here.

So it was all lies because you didn't like the production. I'm convinced, thanks.

GBY wasn't criticising the use of NDAs. He was making the point that it took courage to break them and the hypocrisy of Labour using them against party policy.

[G B Young]

Is it only Jews who have to prove that they are NOT in control of the world economy? That’s anti-semitism right there.
It’s clear from your post that you are anti-Semitic yourself.


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There's certainly a very thin line (and no line at all among some of Corbyn's inner circle judging by last night's Panorama) between hostility towards Israel and antisemitism. It's a convenient cloak to wear when throwing around lazy and ill-informed cliches about Jews and seems to embolden the racists in our society to do so ie 'I'm not anti-Jewish, just anti-Israel so it's OK for me to make these racist comments'. Easier still to throw around such comments when we live in a country (Scotland) with such a tiny Jewish population and the need to better understand their place in our national life is likely seen by many as unnecessary.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is it only Jews who have to prove that they are NOT in control of the world economy? That’s anti-semitism right there.
It’s clear from your post that you are anti-Semitic yourself.

Who's asking Jews to "prove" anything? Please.... give me the quotes. I'm sure Corbyn being the big anti-semitic bigot that he is being portrayed as, will have a wide array of controversial statements to choose from? :rolleyes:

Calling me "anti-Semitic" shows you have no clue what anti-Semitism actually is.


So it was all lies because you didn't like the production. I'm convinced, thanks.

GBY wasn't criticising the use of NDAs. He was making the point that it took courage to break them and the hypocrisy of Labour using them against party policy.

If it wasn't lies, then why put it into the production? Why dramatize a documentary when it's so sure of the honesty behind it's narrative? :confused:

You talk about "courage". Yet you have no idea whether what they're stating is remotely accurate or not. But hey, it was on a BBC documentary with dark clouds over Corbyn's home. So who are we as human beings with our own minds to question it?

[G B Young]

So it was all lies because you didn't like the production. I'm convinced, thanks.

GBY wasn't criticising the use of NDAs. He was making the point that it took courage to break them and the hypocrisy of Labour using them against party policy.

Labour's reaction to the programme sums up its failure to deal with this problem. They have, as I heard someone say earlier, simply continued to attack the messenger rather than confront the message. The 'nothing to see here' nature of the responses they sent to Panorama smack of an ongoing bid to simply shut the conversation down. To dismiss those who showed the courage to speak out as nothing more than embittered former employees shows a sneering lack of interest in truly engaging with an issue that has dogged the party for Corbyn's entire tenure. Those whose testimonies we heard certainly didn't come across as ex-staffers with an axe to grind. As I mentioned earlier in the thread a number of them actually came in to work for Labour under Corbyn, yet they clearly became appalled by what they'd bought into and stated their case on Panorama with genuine sincerity and emotion.

It's to be hoped that while Labour will do their best to diminish the programme, the ongoing statutory investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission will have the power to access the kind of information the BBC could not and ensure that the poisonous culture within a party that was once a welcoming home for Jewish people is fully exposed.

[Fife-Hibee]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread a number of them actually came in to work for Labour under Corbyn, yet they clearly became appalled by what they'd bought into and stated their case on Panorama with genuine sincerity and emotion.

You mean like this guy, when talking about all of the "horrid abuse" from those awful Islamic people?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7ht-xbWwAE6zH0.png

Anybody can put tears on in front of the camera. Especially when it's well prepared as part of the production.

Just because you believe they were stating their case with genuine sincerity and emotion, doesn't actually mean they were feeling anything like that on the inside.

[JeMeSouviens]

Who's asking Jews to "prove" anything? Please.... give me the quotes. I'm sure Corbyn being the big anti-semitic bigot that he is being portrayed as, will have a wide array of controversial statements to choose from? :rolleyes:

Calling me "anti-Semitic" shows you have no clue what anti-Semitism actually is.



If it wasn't lies, then why put it into the production? Why dramatize a documentary when it's so sure of the honesty behind it's narrative? :confused:

You talk about "courage". Yet you have no idea whether what they're stating is remotely accurate or not. But hey, it was on a BBC documentary with dark clouds over Corbyn's home. So who are we as human beings with our own minds to question it?

Sorry, but the fact you have no idea what you posted is anti-semitic shows you have no clue what anti-semitism actually is.

[Fife-Hibee]

Sorry, but the fact you have no idea what you posted is anti-semitic shows you have no clue what anti-semitism actually is.

So it's wrong to criticize anybody, if they just so happen to be jewish? Because that's exactly where this narrative is heading.

Since when did Judaism become a free pass not to be critized regardless of your actions?

[Bristolhibby]

Seriously?

There's plenty of evidence of him engaging with militants whose causes he agrees with (Irish republicans, militant Palestinians etc): inviting them to the HoC, attending their commemorations etc. Funnily enough all the evidence of him engaging with Israelis and Loyalists to further peace has mysteriously gone missing.

How about all major Western Governments?

There was a good film about the Siege of Sarajevo, I can’t remember the name, but Woody Harrelson was in it.

He said “I wonder how the West would have reacted if it was Muslims shelling Christians instead of the other way round”.

Corbyn didn’t need to engage with the Loyalist or Israeli community, they were and continue to be WELLL represented in the Global stage.

“We are the peepul” or so they say.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

So it's wrong to criticize anybody, if they just so happen to be jewish? Because that's exactly where this narrative is heading.

Since when did Judaism become a free pass not to be critized regardless of your actions?

I give up. I know you're not a Labour supporter but you're displaying exactly the attitude that has got them so far into this mess.

[marinello59]

So it's wrong to criticize anybody, if they just so happen to be jewish? Because that's exactly where this narrative is heading.

Since when did Judaism become a free pass not to be critized regardless of your actions?

I couldn’t see any sense in your argument the other day that disagreeing with people means you discriminate against them. Seeing you put it in to practice really isn’t very pretty.

[G B Young]

You mean like this guy, when talking about all of the "horrid abuse" from those awful Islamic people?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7ht-xbWwAE6zH0.png

Anybody can put tears on in front of the camera. Especially when it's well prepared as part of the production.

Just because you believe they were stating their case with genuine sincerity and emotion, doesn't actually mean they were feeling anything like that on the inside.

I didn't see any tears on last night's programme, faked or genuine, which kind of enhanced my respect for those who spoke out. To compare them to that twat above is poor stuff IMHO.

You appear to have some expertise in TV production values judging by your comments and if so then maybe you're better placed to judge the programme than me. However, I'm only expressing my opinion about what I watched and not expecting you to agree with it if you saw things differently. I get the impression, though, that what comes across as your boiling fury towards the BBC and, to a slightly lesser extent, the state of Israel (and possibly Jews as a whole judging by your more recent posts), means that the programme was flawed in your eyes from the off.

[G B Young]

I give up. I know you're not a Labour supporter but you're displaying exactly the attitude that has got them so far into this mess.

There's a good post by one of the admins on the main board about how 'debate' in social media and on increasingly 'old-fashioned' message boards like this one tends to be dominated by those for whom unwelcome opinions must be shut down (with a smattering of abuse often thrown in) rather than constructively engaged with. I was put in mind of that while watching Panorama last night and thinking, as you say, how similar Labour's approach to their anti-Semitism crisis has been.

[Fife-Hibee]

I couldn’t see any sense in your argument the other day that disagreeing with people means you discriminate against them. Seeing you put it in to practice really isn’t very pretty.

Who am I "discriminating" against? :faf:

The Jewish faith? (anti-semitism). Or some people who just so happen to be Jewish? (The freedom to criticize).