The future of the Labour Party

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m not overly worried about Labour winning the next Holyrood election.


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It might actually end up being the boost that the independence movement desire.

[Ozyhibby]

It might actually end up being the boost that the independence movement desire.

I think best they will do is second place and a better together coalition with the Tories. Then we’ll get a realignment with rUK. Tuition fees, prescription charges, end of the Scottish child payment and stuff like that. Much to look forward to.
Maybe even a health service like this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66030700

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[Stairway 2 7]

I think best they will do is second place and a better together coalition with the Tories. Then we’ll get a realignment with rUK. Tuition fees, prescription charges, end of the Scottish child payment and stuff like that. Much to look forward to.
Maybe even a health service like this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66030700

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You don't think there is any chance of that happening if your being honest

Doesn't Scotland have the worst waiting times in the uk if we're talking about the link

[grunt]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-rent-controls-lisa-nandy-keir-starmer-b2365616.html

Labour scraps pledge to bring in rent controls in latest U-turn


Labour (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/labour) has ditched a pledge to control surging rents if it wins the next general election – nine months after endorsing the policy.

Lisa Nandy (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/lisa-nandy) said in September that that she wanted to give local authorities the power to freeze rents, telling party conference: "Doing nothing is not an option."

But speaking at a conference on Wednesday she described the approach as a "sticking plaster" and claimed it would increase homelessness.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-rent-controls-lisa-nandy-keir-starmer-b2365616.html

Labour scraps pledge to bring in rent controls in latest U-turn

They have probably noticed the reverse effect they are having in Scotland. Have to say, this is a good u turn from Labour.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

they're a classy bunch South Lanarkshire council to appoint leader who used Nazi slogan | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23620507.south-lanarkshire-council-appoint-leader-used-nazi-slogan/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457&u=8c7cbcbaa1741d7cbc339fe13eff0274&date=280623) what a vile party they are becoming, they desperately want that right wing crown in Scotland huh :agree:


right wing ? vote BLiS :aok:

[Stairway 2 7]

they're a classy bunch South Lanarkshire council to appoint leader who used Nazi slogan | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23620507.south-lanarkshire-council-appoint-leader-used-nazi-slogan/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457&u=8c7cbcbaa1741d7cbc339fe13eff0274&date=280623) what a vile party they are becoming, they desperately want that right wing crown in Scotland huh :agree:


right wing ? vote BLiS :aok:

He was calling the snp counselor a nazi which was stupid and offensive, clearly a clown

[grunt]

They have probably noticed the reverse effect they are having in Scotland. Have to say, this is a good u turn from Labour.
What effect are rent controls having in Scotland? It seems you disapprove of them? Are they a bad idea?

[Ozyhibby]

What effect are rent controls having in Scotland? It seems you disapprove of them? Are they a bad idea?

It’s not that I don’t want to see rents and other property costs lowered, I very much do. Rent controls have the opposite effect though. It’s been shown many times round the world and is back up by the vast majority of economists.
And since they have been introduced in Scotland, we have moved to the top of the charts in the UK for rising rents. As predicted by most economists.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230628/39f485ab11aea3e17d5bc853ce373b95.jpg

If you really want lower rents then get building social housing, mid market housing and even homes for sale. Just get building.
Rent caps in Scotland are deterring people from investing in housing at a time when we need housing. Crazy.


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[Just Alf]

It’s not that I don’t want to see rents and other property costs lowered, I very much do. Rent controls have the opposite effect though. It’s been shown many times round the world and is back up by the vast majority of economists.
And since they have been introduced in Scotland, we have moved to the top of the charts in the UK for rising rents. As predicted by most economists.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230628/39f485ab11aea3e17d5bc853ce373b95.jpg

If you really want lower rents then get building social housing, mid market housing and even homes for sale. Just get building.
Rent caps in Scotland are deterring people from investing in housing at a time when we need housing. Crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTo be fair that graph also reflects that the areas involved have larger student/transient populations and reflects higher rents on new leases, so those involved will know exactly what they're getting into (as unpalatable as it may be).... the rest of the "renting population " who are still in their existing property will have been limited to between 3 and a max of 6%

That's not to say its good news mind, just that it's not wholly about rent controls

[SHODAN]

If a Labour canvasser comes to my door next year I'll just tell them I can promise to vote for them now but I'll break that promise by the time the election comes around.

[Ozyhibby]

If a Labour canvasser comes to my door next year I'll just tell them I can promise to vote for them now but I'll break that promise by the time the election comes around.

Agree. Whether you agree with the policy or the u-turn, the sheer amount of them is a bit breath taking. He will win next year but I’m not sure anyone will know what they are voting for.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/28/keir-starmer-considers-ditching-labour-pledge-to-reinstate-dfid-international-development

Another one. [emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/28/keir-starmer-considers-ditching-labour-pledge-to-reinstate-dfid-international-development

Another one. [emoji23]


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To be fair the Guardian is at it there, there’s no quote from Starmer, just an unnamed source saying he is considering different options.

Lammy is keen to have Int Dev under the Foreign Office umbrella and I think opponents of this, or indeed of him, have briefed this.

The important thing for me is simply that we commit to Int Dev, and once we see the true state of the finances I would like to see an ambitious target for what we commit to spending. Developed countries have a moral responsibility in my view.

On the subject of U-turns I am pretty chilled. Labour isn’t in government yet, so now is the time to try and fix policies down, before the manifesto launch and next year’s election. It is difficult to make definitive spending commitments this far out, that’s for sure.

What’s not good is making the big u-turns while in government and wasting time and money and goodwill for absolutely nothing. Like the SNP’s named person scheme. Or the SNP’s health and social care integration scheme.

[Mibbes Aye]

You don't think there is any chance of that happening if your being honest

Doesn't Scotland have the worst waiting times in the uk if we're talking about the link

Scotland currently has around 630,000 people on a NHS waiting list..

That's greater than the number of every living soul in Edinburgh and Aberdeen. On a massive NHS waiting list.

[gbhibby]

absolutely spot freakin on :agree:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwwolndWYAATmND?format=jpg&name=medium

What a PM he would have made.

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland currently has around 630,000 people on a NHS waiting list..

That's greater than the number of every living soul in Edinburgh and Aberdeen. On a massive NHS waiting list.

Is there a comparison that can be made with other nhs in the UK?


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[gbhibby]

Is there a comparison that can be made with other nhs in the UK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-backlog-data-analysis
Hope this helps Ozyhibby

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[degenerated]

Is there a comparison that can be made with other nhs in the UK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk7.4 million in England, that was reported at the start of the month in guardian.

[The Harp Awakes]

What a PM he would have made.

Used to be spellbound listening to him speak. Tony Benn was the main reason I became interested in politics.

So sad to see what the Labour Party has become under Starmer. Forming council coalitions with the tories up and down Scotland. Sold their souls for a pot of gold.

[Ozyhibby]

Looks like about £735k in Labour run Wales. Maybe they have a bigger population?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Sure we'll be worse at some things and better at others tbf

https://archive.ph/9KnuW

NHS Scotland's waiting times 'demonstrably worse' than south of the border

Thousands of Scots are waiting more than two years for treatment but in England only a few hundred face the same waits, according to Public Health Scotland (PHS) statistics.

Opposition leaders said the figures represented a “shameful failure” of the SNP government, and that ministers have previously been “quick to draw comparisons to England when it suits them”.

As of March 31, 7,849 Scots have been waiting over two years for inpatient, outpatient or day care treatment from NHS Scotland, while in England just 599 were suffering through the same lengthy waits.

England’s NHS also appears to outperform NHS Scotland at the 18-month mark. In England, 10,737 patients have been waiting longer than 18 months for treatment, while in Scotland, the figure is 21,681 - more than twice the number of English patients.

[Mibbes Aye]

Is there a comparison that can be made with other nhs in the UK?


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Maybe that despite a much larger public spend per head of population, the Scottish Government has broken its own law on waiting times, well over half a million times?

If all you can do to excuse poor performance is say somebody else is worse then that's not taking any responsibility is it?

That's the mindset for the SNP SG excuse-makers in this regard though, isn't it. Too busy peering over at the next urinal to notice they are up to their ankles in their own pish :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe that despite a much larger public spend per head of population, the Scottish Government has broken its own law on waiting times, well over half a million times?

If all you can do to excuse poor performance is say somebody else is worse then that's not taking any responsibility is it?

That's the mindset for the SNP SG excuse-makers in this regard though, isn't it. Too busy peering over at the next urinal to notice they are up to their ankles in their own pish :wink:

That’s a fair point but if your asking me to vote Labour then I’m going to have a look at how well they run their system to see if it’s going to be an improvement? That seems like a sensible thing to do, no?
Based on their performance in Wales, it looks like I’m better staying with the SNP on the issue of Health.


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[The Harp Awakes]

Maybe that despite a much larger public spend per head of population, the Scottish Government has broken its own law on waiting times, well over half a million times?

If all you can do to excuse poor performance is say somebody else is worse then that's not taking any responsibility is it?

That's the mindset for the SNP SG excuse-makers in this regard though, isn't it. Too busy peering over at the next urinal to notice they are up to their ankles in their own pish :wink:

Making comparisons on NHS performance between UK nations is pointless. The truth is the NHS has been crippled across the UK due to the pandemic. It was not in a great state before the pandemic either of course, but no political party in the current constitutional set up will sort it.

The bottom line is, if you want to fix the NHS, there has to be a massive cash injection which can only be achieved by raising income taxes appreciably. Westminster governments Tory or Tory lite will never raise taxes enough. In Scotland, the Scottish Government have increased the level of tax, particularly on higher rate payers, but to do so any more would be political suicide, when they are focused on staying in power and achieving their raison d'etre of independence.

In my opinion if you want to revitalise the NHS in Scotland vote for independence. I genuinely believe that any government of an independent Scotland, including Labour, would be willing to raise taxes sufficiently to transform the NHS.

[Mibbes Aye]

That’s a fair point but if your asking me to vote Labour then I’m going to have a look at how well they run their system to see if it’s going to be an improvement? That seems like a sensible thing to do, no?
Based on their performance in Wales, it looks like I’m better staying with the SNP on the issue of Health.


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I know that you know that I know you aren't as stupid as that.

I just don't see why you find solace in your comparisons when the SNP is criticised. Are you telling me that someone in Stornoway or Stirling, with a fractured hip or a new cancer diagnosis, is going to feel any better because supposedly some sod from Sheffield is worse-off? Really?

What I see here is a severe case of not taking responsibility for something you (SNP) are responsible for. Instead you are pointing the finger and saying "Look, over there, anywhere, just don't look here".

And to be honest that fits the SNP mindset. IT's always about comparisons with others, or blaming others or whatever. Classic displacement masking an inferiority complex. I don't get it because I dont see why I should feel inferior just because I'm Scottish.

Just give it up and get the things you were elected to do, done right. We don't care if we are 1% 'better' than England or 1% 'worse' than England, we are not interested. We just want it to be right, here, when we need it. And it is a long, long way from being right.

[SHODAN]

I think best they will do is second place and a better together coalition with the Tories. Then we’ll get a realignment with rUK. Tuition fees, prescription charges, end of the Scottish child payment and stuff like that. Much to look forward to.
Maybe even a health service like this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66030700

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A unionist coalition is absolutely what will happen if they win more MSPs than the SNP/Greens. I really fear for my country if that happens.

The aim as you say will be to introduce all the right wing policies down south that we're currently protected from, to worsen the case for independence.

[Smartie]

I know that you know that I know you aren't as stupid as that.

I just don't see why you find solace in your comparisons when the SNP is criticised. Are you telling me that someone in Stornoway or Stirling, with a fractured hip or a new cancer diagnosis, is going to feel any better because supposedly some sod from Sheffield is worse-off? Really?

What I see here is a severe case of not taking responsibility for something you (SNP) are responsible for. Instead you are pointing the finger and saying "Look, over there, anywhere, just don't look here".

And to be honest that fits the SNP mindset. IT's always about comparisons with others, or blaming others or whatever. Classic displacement masking an inferiority complex. I don't get it because I dont see why I should feel inferior just because I'm Scottish.

Just give it up and get the things you were elected to do, done right. We don't care if we are 1% 'better' than England or 1% 'worse' than England, we are not interested. We just want it to be right, here, when we need it. And it is a long, long way from being right.

I’m less inclined to defend the SNP on stuff like this than some others.

But I have a problem with the idea that the Labour Party will fix the problems, not because I question their competence or intentions but because of the size of the task.

The NHS is, by and large, a disgrace the length and breadth of the UK and instead of using it as a political football we should, as voters, take proper ownership of the fact.

If (when) Labour get in, they’ve got a monumental task in making meaningful change. Achieving the funding to make meaningful change is going to be hugely challenging, given the pragmatic approach they’re going to need to take to taxation South of the border in order to ensure they’re elected.

The various political parties / corners of the UK bickering over who has got the crappest health service is the ultimate bald men fighting over a comb argument.

[Bristolhibby]

Is there a comparison that can be made with other nhs in the UK?


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Careful, you are not allowed to compare it to England, as this isn’t about England.

(Despite what they spend having a direct affect on how much of Scotlands money is shelled back to the Scottish NHS).

J

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m less inclined to defend the SNP on stuff like this than some others.

But I have a problem with the idea that the Labour Party will fix the problems, not because I question their competence or intentions but because of the size of the task.

The NHS is, by and large, a disgrace the length and breadth of the UK and instead of using it as a political football we should, as voters, take proper ownership of the fact.

If (when) Labour get in, they’ve got a monumental task in making meaningful change. Achieving the funding to make meaningful change is going to be hugely challenging, given the pragmatic approach they’re going to need to take to taxation South of the border in order to ensure they’re elected.

The various political parties / corners of the UK bickering over who has got the crappest health service is the ultimate bald men fighting over a comb argument.

I hear you about the complexity of the task and I think short-termism certainly gets in the way. The politicking so often feels like a means of diverting attention from dealing with the fundamental issues.

Labour did make a positive difference in the Blair/Brown years but that was only because of throwing a lot of money at it in a benign economic climate. And the thing that is often overlooked was that Cabinet and junior ministers were managed within an inch of their lives to meet targets and deliver the outputs and outcomes they were meant to. Absolutely rigid discipline at least for the first term and a half, less so as the psychodrama of the succession came to a head.

I've said on here before, a few times in fact, that there needs to be a grown-up conversation about health and social care - about what expectations people have, what is actually deliverable and how do we design and implement a system and processes that marries the two into a realistic proposition.

For me that could be achieved by creating a Royal Commission (with cross-party support), less common now than they were in the 1970s, but empowered to consult and call people to give evidence, gather and assess the evidence and report with realistic options. It would then be worth considering a referendum, maybe even a multi-choice referendum.

I do know two things for sure - if we had a blank piece of paper and had to design our healthcare system today it wouldn't look like what we have now. And any substantial change, whatever it may be, will take years to agree, implement and yield benefits.

[grunt]

Yvette Cooper on fire.

https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1674454305355563008?s=20

[Smartie]

I hear you about the complexity of the task and I think short-termism certainly gets in the way. The politicking so often feels like a means of diverting attention from dealing with the fundamental issues.

Labour did make a positive difference in the Blair/Brown years but that was only because of throwing a lot of money at it in a benign economic climate. And the thing that is often overlooked was that Cabinet and junior ministers were managed within an inch of their lives to meet targets and deliver the outputs and outcomes they were meant to. Absolutely rigid discipline at least for the first term and a half, less so as the psychodrama of the succession came to a head.

I've said on here before, a few times in fact, that there needs to be a grown-up conversation about health and social care - about what expectations people have, what is actually deliverable and how do we design and implement a system and processes that marries the two into a realistic proposition.

For me that could be achieved by creating a Royal Commission (with cross-party support), less common now than they were in the 1970s, but empowered to consult and call people to give evidence, gather and assess the evidence and report with realistic options. It would then be worth considering a referendum, maybe even a multi-choice referendum.

I do know two things for sure - if we had a blank piece of paper and had to design our healthcare system today it wouldn't look like what we have now. And any substantial change, whatever it may be, will take years to agree, implement and yield benefits.

Great post, I agree with every word.

It's hard to be optimistic or to see a way forward - but I totally agree with the idea of a Royal Commission. I only think we're going to be able to move forward if we do a bit of soul searching and almost agree to a truce on the petty bickering between parties for a while.

It could be argued that they all gain from the status quo whilst the population suffers, and that needs to stop.

Whilst acknowledging the roles that covid, Brexit and the war in Ukraine will have had on why we currently find ourselves in multiple types of difficult situation, it really is inexcusable that a country with the UK's wealth has the health services it has in this day and age. As technology and research improve and there is so much to be excited and positive about in medicine, we really need to have a long, hard think about how we shape these services over the next half century or so.

[degenerated]

And another one

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/28/keir-starmer-considers-ditching-labour-pledge-to-reinstate-dfid-international-development?CMP=share_btn_tw

[cabbageandribs1875]

more socialists kicked out Labour’s Haringey Stich-Up (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/labour-s-haringey-stich-up/ar-AA1dfAuZ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e59d547523984bec8bc03008b293cbd1&ei=64) must be horrible for Labour voters now realising they vote for a right wing political party, how do they look themselves in the mirror. then again, maybe they've always been right wing voters and they're excited their party has caught up with their right wing views.:agree: want Tory values ? vote British Labour

[cabbageandribs1875]

after 44 years a member of labour this poor chap has been expelled After 44 years, Labour is expelling me. And my MP and activist friends are asking: who will be next? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/after-44-years-labour-is-expelling-me-and-my-mp-and-activist-friends-are-asking-who-will-be-next/ar-AA1dfIUH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dc7eaa4b4b78433dafea3b3e549c3d47&ei=9)

[Ozyhibby]

after 44 years a member of labour this poor chap has been expelled After 44 years, Labour is expelling me. And my MP and activist friends are asking: who will be next? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/after-44-years-labour-is-expelling-me-and-my-mp-and-activist-friends-are-asking-who-will-be-next/ar-AA1dfIUH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dc7eaa4b4b78433dafea3b3e549c3d47&ei=9)

Harsh punishment for that offence?


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[archie]

after 44 years a member of labour this poor chap has been expelled After 44 years, Labour is expelling me. And my MP and activist friends are asking: who will be next? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/after-44-years-labour-is-expelling-me-and-my-mp-and-activist-friends-are-asking-who-will-be-next/ar-AA1dfIUH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dc7eaa4b4b78433dafea3b3e549c3d47&ei=9)

I'm not a member of a political party, but isn't it normal for there to be restrictions on members asking voters to vote for another party?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not a member of a political party, but isn't it normal for there to be restrictions on members asking voters to vote for another party?

https://twitter.com/michaellcrick/status/1674747741430329347?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Lisa Nandy could be in trouble then?


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[Mibbes Aye]

more socialists kicked out Labour’s Haringey Stich-Up (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/labour-s-haringey-stich-up/ar-AA1dfAuZ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e59d547523984bec8bc03008b293cbd1&ei=64) must be horrible for Labour voters now realising they vote for a right wing political party, how do they look themselves in the mirror. then again, maybe they've always been right wing voters and they're excited their party has caught up with their right wing views.:agree: want Tory values ? vote British Labour

You are getting a bit mixed up. Starmer and the Party and NEC are showing firm leadership here. I will accept maybe ot even feels ruthless at times. But those complaining don't have to put up with it- they can leave any time they want. Given you rarely express your views as such, I'm not sure what you consider 'right-wing'. Is repealing anti-union legislation right-wing? Is windfall tax on profitmaking privatised utilities right-wing? Etc etc.

These people would genuinely prefer it if Starmer and Labour lost the net GE and the Tories had another four years in office.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not a member of a political party, but isn't it normal for there to be restrictions on members asking voters to vote for another party?

There are and they are clear, very clear. I seem to recall Ali Campbell was expelled from Labour by Corbyns's team for voting Lib Dem in the Euros.

To be honest, I was astonished to find out that Neal Lawson was still a member. He has been ploughing an increasingly isolated furrow for decades now. He never really got over the fact that his fantasy 'grand coalition' of the progressive left took off during the New Labour years.

Not surprising really - for every measured and respectable Green like Caroline Lucas you get the slow-motion car crash of a Slater. And for every half-decent Lib Dem, you find one, maybe one and a half who are old-school English Liberals, who had no problem jumping into bed with Cameron and Osbourne.

Starmer is pragmatic, I think Ed Davey is too. Between them and their chief whips, there will be communication on votes in the House. Just like there always has been. People should remember that when Blair took out almost all of the hereditary peers in the Lords, it was achieved through a lot of secret negotiation with Vicount Cranborne, a Tory peer, behind William Hague's back.

[One Day Soon]

I find the recent tone of this thread very reassuring as a barometer of who is going to win the next election. Very reassuring indeed.

[SHODAN]

after 44 years a member of labour this poor chap has been expelled After 44 years, Labour is expelling me. And my MP and activist friends are asking: who will be next? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/after-44-years-labour-is-expelling-me-and-my-mp-and-activist-friends-are-asking-who-will-be-next/ar-AA1dfIUH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dc7eaa4b4b78433dafea3b3e549c3d47&ei=9)

Don't think he was too bothered when anyone to the left of him was getting punted out. Your turn now, centre-lefts!

[Mibbes Aye]

Don't think he was too bothered when anyone to the left of him was getting punted out. Your turn now, centre-lefts!

To be honest, when I see the hard left moaners and when I see the likes of Neal Lawson moaning, the first thing that comes to mind isn't their politics, it is how incredibly boring they are.

Given Starmer's public persona gets criticised for being a bit dull by some, it is an interesting move by the Party :greengrin

Still, when it comes down to it, he has been pushing the rulebook to the limit for ages now. He may think he is right and he may think the rules are flawed but he just needs to lump it, he knew exactly what he was doing.

[cabbageandribs1875]

pound shop Blairites :cb Keir Starmer is creating culture of fear with left-wingers ousted for ‘pound shop Blairites’, Labour MP claims (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/keir-starmer-is-creating-culture-of-fear-with-left-wingers-ousted-for-pound-shop-blairites-labour-mp-claims/ar-AA1dl31p?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=29734e73e48a4370a0991675869ec141&ei=22)

[Mibbes Aye]

pound shop Blairites :cb Keir Starmer is creating culture of fear with left-wingers ousted for ‘pound shop Blairites’, Labour MP claims (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/keir-starmer-is-creating-culture-of-fear-with-left-wingers-ousted-for-pound-shop-blairites-labour-mp-claims/ar-AA1dl31p?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=29734e73e48a4370a0991675869ec141&ei=22)


About eight posts up you claimed Neal Lawson had been expelled.

But that's not true in the slightest.

Are you going to correct it?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23627265.ken-loach-pope-corbyn-starmers-lost-labour-party/

[cabbageandribs1875]

ah the Labstain party, Starmers Stainers
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/358126918_6174121649352861_2738169661067929980_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=hmdzqGCrXY8AX9_NRMU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBSwXCm7aUnUzn-WvjPQVZdz3wIhNhyqm18RiynWKgkAw&oe=64A885AB

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Another u-turn?


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[Since90+2]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Another u-turn?


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Pretty much sums Labour up.

[Hibbyradge]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Another u-turn?


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Who u-turned from what?

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Another u-turn?


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Pretty much sums Labour up.

Poor, poor posts based on falsehood. Is that the level we are at?

Labour hasn’t announced its overall manifesto policy on benefits yet, it will be agreed by the Party at conference in a couple of months.

So talking about a u-turn is just making things up. Again.

Suffice to say, Labour will look at the policy and all the others, as well as all the factors that lead people to find themselves needing benefits in the first place. My suspicion is that the scale of the problem and the complete shambles of the economy will mean that high income child benefit will be made tighter, much tighter. But that ‘s just a personal opinion.

It is worth bearing in mind, it was Labour who introduced child benefit in the first place. Given the state of child poverty under the Tories and the SNP it is clear that Labour is the only party that has any credibility on this subject.

[Mibbes Aye]

All in all a good day for Starmer out on the road.

He had his own ‘Just Stop Oil’ protester moment and he handled it courteously and with grace.

More importantly was the content of his speech, on education and opportunity, wrapping up the fifth of the central themes of what Labour is about, before presenting the fine detail further down the road.

There were a couple of nice quotes that will make the broadcast news - pledging to ‘break the class ceiling’ was a clever line, hats off to whoever came up with it. Nice reminder of the difference between the Tories and Labour, as well as outflanking the Hard Left imbeciles who like to portray themselves as the keepers of the flame.

It also touches on a personal strength for Starmer - he came from a poorer, much poorer background than Sunak or indeed Yousaf for that matter.

His dad was a factory worker, his mum a nurse and he was the first person in his family to go to university. Before politics he had already forged a career that most people would be satisfied with - a highly-regarded human rights lawyer, the top prosecutor in the country. For him, class barriers and social mobility are lived experience.

Another good section in his speech was avoiding the trend of making ‘every kid a coder’. Those sorts of skills are vital but not at the expense of everything else. Creative industries contribute a lot to the economy and should be nourished.

[Ozyhibby]

Poor, poor posts based on falsehood. Is that the level we are at?

Labour hasn’t announced its overall manifesto policy on benefits yet, it will be agreed by the Party at conference in a couple of months.

So talking about a u-turn is just making things up. Again.

Suffice to say, Labour will look at the policy and all the others, as well as all the factors that lead people to find themselves needing benefits in the first place. My suspicion is that the scale of the problem and the complete shambles of the economy will mean that high income child benefit will be made tighter, much tighter. But that ‘s just a personal opinion.

It is worth bearing in mind, it was Labour who introduced child benefit in the first place. Given the state of child poverty under the Tories and the SNP it is clear that Labour is the only party that has any credibility on this subject.

Are Labour going to match the SNP’s Scottish Child Payment?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Are Labour going to match the SNP’s Scottish Child Payment?


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I don’t know. But if it leads to a quarter of children living in poverty I would bloody well hope not.

There’s no point having a snappy, sounds-good policy title if it simply is there to mask the stench of failure. A fig leaf for the abandonment of the poor and needy - council tax freeze or free for all prescriptions for example?

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t know. But if it leads to a quarter of children living in poverty I would bloody well hope not.

There’s no point having a snappy, sounds-good policy title if it simply is there to mask the stench of failure. A fig leaf for the abandonment of the poor and needy - council tax freeze or free for all prescriptions for example?

https://fraserofallander.org/meeting-the-scottish-child-poverty-targets-is-it-a-case-of-too-little-too-late/

Interesting. The above report shows Scotland leading the way in the UK on child poverty. And that the Scottish child payment should improve this situation over the next couple of years (their data only just includes it introduction).
Still if you want rid of it then fair enough.
Vote Labour, to get rid of the Scottish child payment, raise council taxes and bring back prescription and tuition fees. Catchy.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/monicalennon7/status/1676927079546249220?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Monica Lennon not happy.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676847918198710273?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Seems determined to keep wages low.[emoji106]


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[SHODAN]

https://twitter.com/monicalennon7/status/1676927079546249220?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Monica Lennon not happy.


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Lennon is one of the good ones. Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if a memo from head office comes in to remove the whip now.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://fraserofallander.org/meeting-the-scottish-child-poverty-targets-is-it-a-case-of-too-little-too-late/

Interesting. The above report shows Scotland leading the way in the UK on child poverty. And that the Scottish child payment should improve this situation over the next couple of years (their data only just includes it introduction).
Still if you want rid of it then fair enough.
Vote Labour, to get rid of the Scottish child payment, raise council taxes and bring back prescription and tuition fees. Catchy.


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If you think a quarter of children living in poverty is leading the way, then why not emblazon that on your manifesto. Catchy, as they say.

I wonder if the SG would keep the child payment were they not getting the public spending dividend they receive. I certainly struggle to see how it would be affordable in an independent Scotland.

And yes, I don’t mind paying more on my council tax or paying for prescriptions if it meant better services for the vulnerable in our society, rather than benefitting from what is essentially a bribe to middle and high income voters. Wouldn’t you?

[Ozyhibby]

If you think a quarter of children living in poverty is leading the way, then why not emblazon that on your manifesto. Catchy, as they say.

I wonder if the SG would keep the child payment were they not getting the public spending dividend they receive. I certainly struggle to see how it would be affordable in an independent Scotland.

And yes, I don’t mind paying more on my council tax or paying for prescriptions if it meant better services for the vulnerable in our society, rather than benefitting from what is essentially a bribe to middle and high income voters. Wouldn’t you?

Child poverty higher in Labour controlled Wales?


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1676847918198710273?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Seems determined to keep wages low.[emoji106]


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So a few posts ago you accuse him of a u-turn when there wasn’t anything to u-turn on.

Now you tell us he is determined to keep wages low, when he hasn’t ruled a pay request in or out.

The other day you were criticising his leadership for something that happened three years before he became leader.

:faf:

Do your research man, and stop relying on other people to do your thinking for you, with their fake bait headlines and links.

[Mibbes Aye]

Child poverty higher in Labour controlled Wales?


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It is a couple of percent higher I believe.

But Scotland has much more autonomy on taxation and welfare.

Wales is far more exposed to the Tories.

Again, do your research man.

[Ozyhibby]

It is a couple of percent higher I believe.

But Scotland has much more autonomy on taxation and welfare.

Wales is far more exposed to the Tories.

Again, do your research man.

Good to see you coming round to having more autonomy. [emoji106]


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[cabbageandribs1875]

unions should no longer be offering funds to a right wing political party in the first place :grr: RMT’s Mick Lynch ‘doesn’t have confidence’ in Keir Starmer, says he has ‘let Peter Mandelson take over’ Labour (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/rmt-s-mick-lynch-doesn-t-have-confidence-in-keir-starmer-says-he-has-let-peter-mandelson-take-over-labour/ar-AA1dvNmf?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bdc04da2e3df4ab6ab61e40e61ca371c&ei=47)

[Mibbes Aye]

Good to see you coming round to having more autonomy. [emoji106]


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Think Welsh Labour want U.K. Labour in office. You know, people who have actually done stuff, like real stuff, about reducing child poverty.

[Mibbes Aye]

unions should no longer be offering funds to a right wing political party in the first place :grr: RMT’s Mick Lynch ‘doesn’t have confidence’ in Keir Starmer, says he has ‘let Peter Mandelson take over’ Labour (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/rmt-s-mick-lynch-doesn-t-have-confidence-in-keir-starmer-says-he-has-let-peter-mandelson-take-over-labour/ar-AA1dvNmf?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bdc04da2e3df4ab6ab61e40e61ca371c&ei=47)

:rolleyes:

If a union wishes to give monsy to a political party party it needs to do so through a Political Fund.

To set this up, it needs a majority of members to vote for it in a secret ballot.

If you are a union member and your union is affiliated to Labour, you have to sign a declaration that you are happy for some of your dues to go to Labour. You have to ‘opt-in’.

Right-wing political party :faf: Are you not an SNP supporter? The party half of whose members just voted for a low-tax, small government, anti-single mother, anti-gay marriage leader? And you are accusing others of being right-wing??!!

[Ozyhibby]

Think Welsh Labour want U.K. Labour in office. You know, people who have actually done stuff, like real stuff, about reducing child poverty.

What’s the point of devolution if it only works when the Tories don’t win (not very often)?


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[Mibbes Aye]

What’s the point of devolution if it only works when your the Tories don’t win (not very often)?


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I don’t know why Welsh devolution took them to the place they are now. But it is different from Scotland in that regard.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don’t know why Welsh devolution took them to the place they are now. But it is different from Scotland in that regard.

Because they only had Labour working for devolution in Wales. 🤔😉

[Mibbes Aye]

Because they only had Labour working for devolution in Wales. ����

Plaid and the Lib Dems supported the creation of the Welsh Assembly.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230707/b8aeb6c61c8d2f2d326587f9d92a9a6e.jpg

Wonder if Sarwar still intends to do this now that Starmer has gone in a different direction?


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[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0XUeQJWYAA-cqW?format=jpg&name=medium

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t know why Welsh devolution took them to the place they are now. But it is different from Scotland in that regard.

Support for Welsh autonomy was much more lukewarm than in Scotland. They barely got the 97 referendum over the line. (50.3 Yes vs 49.7 No). Interestingly, the 2011 referendum that strengthened Welsh devolution to give the Senedd law making powers won by 63-37.

[JeMeSouviens]

Think Welsh Labour want U.K. Labour in office. You know, people who have actually done stuff, like real stuff, about reducing child poverty.

The proof of the effectiveness pudding Lab vs SNP will come if and when there is Lab at Holyrood and the Tories at Westminster. Until then you're not like for like at the greengrocer's (if I may tentatively bring fruit in here).

[Mibbes Aye]

Support for Welsh autonomy was much more lukewarm than in Scotland. They barely got the 97 referendum over the line. (50.3 Yes vs 49.7 No). Interestingly, the 2011 referendum that strengthened Welsh devolution to give the Senedd law making powers won by 63-37.

:agree:

Two of the things that commonly get forgotten in this debate, by everybody.

One, Wales voted very narrowly for a much smaller devolution second settlement. Even with the additional powers, it has far less autonomy than Scotland.

Second, the legislation around devolution was also for London. Further extension to English regions was planned but fell away after the referendum in the North-East came out strongly against.

[Mibbes Aye]

The proof of the effectiveness pudding Lab vs SNP will come if and when there is Lab at Holyrood and the Tories at Westminster. Until then you're not like for like at the greengrocer's (if I may tentatively bring fruit in here).

Sounds like a load of cobblers to me :greengrin

It is one of the more interesting counterfactuals or “What if”s though.

You can argue that opposition to Tory measures, without prioritising the pursuit of independence, might have been better for the people of Scotland I guess, but it is all speculative.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230707/b8aeb6c61c8d2f2d326587f9d92a9a6e.jpg

Wonder if Sarwar still intends to do this now that Starmer has gone in a different direction?


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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0XUeQJWYAA-cqW?format=jpg&name=medium

So, Starmer didn’t say anything about keeping the two child cap but you are just scrambling around trying to suggest he did.

You really are desperate to throw any old muck, aren’t you?

Even if you have to make it up yourselves.

Like Flynn and like Yousaf, it smells like you have the fear. Big time.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/ewangibbs/status/1677010848907423744?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Since90+2]

https://twitter.com/ewangibbs/status/1677010848907423744?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Starmer will be elected, not because he is any good but because the Tories have absolutely wrecked the country and have ran out of road.

[grunt]

So, Starmer didn’t say anything about keeping the two child cap but you are just scrambling around trying to suggest he did.
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=20

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1676901366894084096?s=20

There's some very iffy editing and chopping going on there - was it done by a three year-old with a Fisher Price laptop?

Said it before, it was Labourr who inroduced child benefit in the first place. The manifesto will set out the party's proposals for government. My personal opinion is that there will be a policy offer that is more targeted - probably involving something around cutting back High Income Child Benefit.

At the end of the day, the Tories don't have any track record on helping the disadvantaged. And the SNP were more interested in clinging onto power to further their independence ambitions, than actually doing the hard yards - which is why we got and have middle-class bribes like free prescriptions and the council tax freeze, and why a quarter of Scottish children are in poverty.

[Hibrandenburg]

There's some very iffy editing and chopping going on there - was it done by a three year-old with a Fisher Price laptop?

Said it before, it was Labourr who inroduced child benefit in the first place. The manifesto will set out the party's proposals for government. My personal opinion is that there will be a policy offer that is more targeted - probably involving something around cutting back High Income Child Benefit.

At the end of the day, the Tories don't have any track record on helping the disadvantaged. And the SNP were more interested in clinging onto power to further their independence ambitions, than actually doing the hard yards - which is why we got and have middle-class bribes like free prescriptions and the council tax freeze, and why a quarter of Scottish children are in poverty.

Almost a third of children in the UK are living in poverty, so you could say that Scotland are again offsetting UK austerity better than the rest of the UK by making sacrifices elsewhere.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66134332

Reeves on TV tomorrow.


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[Glory Lurker]

It's the economy, stupid.

Leave the field.

It's over. The great fight we've fought for hundreds of years is over. It's all about getting power now. Trust us. We'll slow them down a bit. We'll do better out of it than you will but that's just the system.

[neil7908]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66134332

Reeves on TV tomorrow.


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It's all so thoroughly depressing. Tories take us 10 steps back, Labour take us 2 steps forward, then get booted out of power once things are beginning to brighten, for another Tory Government to take us 10 steps back again.

I don't think I've ever felt this hopeless politically.

[degenerated]

It's all so thoroughly depressing. Tories take us 10 steps back, Labour take us 2 steps forward, then get booted out of power once things are beginning to brighten, for another Tory Government to take us 10 steps back again.

I don't think I've ever felt this hopeless politically.Keir Hardly's labour aren't going to be taking us 2 steps forward. It's pretty clear they are just going to continue along the same path as the Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1677933876344225796?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Is Labour getting ready for a u-turn on North Sea oil? The policy is only a couple of weeks old.


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[grunt]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1677933876344225796?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Is Labour getting ready for a u-turn on North Sea oil? The policy is only a couple of weeks old.
Don't look up.

[He's here!]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23641677.ross-greer-no-bute-house-labour-opposes-independence-vote/

Ross Greer ruling out a coalition deal with Labour at the next Holyrood elections...hard to imagine Labour would want to saddle themselves with those bampots after seeing the damage they've done to the SNP.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23641677.ross-greer-no-bute-house-labour-opposes-independence-vote/

Ross Greer ruling out a coalition deal with Labour at the next Holyrood elections...hard to imagine Labour would want to saddle themselves with those bampots after seeing the damage they've done to the SNP.

Labour will prefer to join with the tories again.

[archie]

Labour will prefer to join with the tories again.

The SNP belived that working with the Tories was acceptable in the Scottish Parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP belived that working with the Tories was acceptable in the Scottish Parliament.

No denial.[emoji106]


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[marinello59]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23641677.ross-greer-no-bute-house-labour-opposes-independence-vote/

Ross Greer ruling out a coalition deal with Labour at the next Holyrood elections...hard to imagine Labour would want to saddle themselves with those bampots after seeing the damage they've done to the SNP.

Climate change and the environment is the biggest single challenge facing us worldwide so we really do need a Green Party worthy of the name. How sad to see the Scottish Greens making Indy their biggest single issue. It looks more and more like ministerial salaries and careers are more important than principles. If they had any left Slater and Harvie would have walked when the SNP crossed a red line by ditching HPMAs.

[Ozyhibby]

Climate change and the environment is the biggest single challenge facing us worldwide so we really do need a Green Party worthy of the name. How sad to see the Scottish Greens making Indy their biggest single issue. It looks more and more like ministerial salaries and careers are more important than principles. If they had any left Slater and Harvie would have walked when the SNP crossed a red line by ditching HPMAs.

To be fair, Starmer says he hates tree huggers so I doubt a deal would be possible anyway.


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[grunt]

To be fair, Starmer says he hates tree huggers so I doubt a deal would be possible anyway.
Can't quite bring myself to believe he actually said that. Is there video of it anywhere?

[Since90+2]

Can't quite bring myself to believe he actually said that. Is there video of it anywhere?

I'm guessing he's paraphrasing. Can't quite believe Starmer would use those words.

[archie]

I'm guessing he's paraphrasing. Can't quite believe Starmer would use those words.

It's an unsourced report of an alleged quote.

[degenerated]

I'm guessing he's paraphrasing. Can't quite believe Starmer would use those words.It's from an article in the times

https://archive.is/Kn8Yc

[archie]

It's from an article in the times

https://archive.is/Kn8Yc

Unsourced.

[Moulin Yarns]

Unsourced.

Starmer] thanked him for his presentation, but said he wasn’t interested in hope and change, he was more interested in creating sustainable new jobs to replace jobs in old sectors that were being lost,” said a source. “He then said he was not interested in tree-huggers, before adding to everyone’s surprise, ‘In fact, I hate tree-huggers’.”


The comments surprised some in the meeting, which took place the day after Starmer gave a speech on energy strategy in Aberdeen last month, but they are symptomatic of the divide that exists between him and Miliband.

[neil7908]

I've been happy bash Starmer on a number of areas but this feels a stretch. He's only very recently made a huge pledge on stopping new oil and gas. If they backtrack on this I'll be the first in line to give him pelters but this random quote in the Times is hardly damming evidence.

[archie]

Starmer] thanked him for his presentation, but said he wasn’t interested in hope and change, he was more interested in creating sustainable new jobs to replace jobs in old sectors that were being lost,” said a source. “He then said he was not interested in tree-huggers, before adding to everyone’s surprise, ‘In fact, I hate tree-huggers’.”


The comments surprised some in the meeting, which took place the day after Starmer gave a speech on energy strategy in Aberdeen last month, but they are symptomatic of the divide that exists between him and Miliband.

It's not attributed though, is it?

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not attributed though, is it?

That's what quotation marks are for 😂

[archie]

That's what quotation marks are for 😂In the sense that they are attributing the quote to Starmer. But he isn't the source of the story, who is unnamed. BTW I have no idea if it's true or not.

[Moulin Yarns]

In the sense that they are attributing the quote to Starmer. But he isn't the source of the story, who is unnamed. BTW I have no idea if it's true or not.

The Unsourced source has sourced Starmers quoted source.

Sounds pretty sourcey to me 😂

[archie]

The Unsourced source has sourced Starmers quoted source.

Sounds pretty sourcey to me 😂

Do you know who it is?

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you know who it is?

No. Do you??

[archie]

No. Do you??

No, because it's not sourced.

[Moulin Yarns]

No, because it's not sourced.

Oh cummon, use your favourite word, Unsourced 😂

[archie]

Oh cummon, use your favourite word, Unsourced 😂

?

[SHODAN]

Another statement that will push Labour ever closer to the PASOK event horizon.

Those kids aren't going to stay around forever if you keep telling them how much you hate them.

[Since90+2]

?

😂

[archie]

😂

?

[J-C]

The Unsourced source has sourced Starmers quoted source.

Sounds pretty sourcey to me 😂


Do you know who it is?


No. Do you??


No, because it's not sourced.


Oh cummon, use your favourite word, Unsourced 😂


Who's on first?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230710/1a1e2ad147121cb1a3ce74010f348c13.jpg

Just came across this from Robin cook. I think Labour look all set to repeat the error. When they get in in 2025 I bet it will all be about how peoples priorities are not electoral reform or the constitution. I guess that will always be the case because we lurch from one crisis to the other.


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[Hibbyradge]

Who's on first?

Yes

[Hibbyradge]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230710/1a1e2ad147121cb1a3ce74010f348c13.jpg

Just came across this from Robin cook. I think Labour look all set to repeat the error. When they get in in 2025 I bet it will all be about how peoples priorities are not electoral reform or the constitution. I guess that will always be the case because we lurch from one crisis to the other.


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Am I right in saying that the Labour Party conference supported a change to PR although the leadership knocked it back?

That would be a real shame.

[Ozyhibby]

Am I right in saying that the Labour Party conference supported a change to PR although the leadership knocked it back?

That would be a real shame.

I think that is the case.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/09/rupert-murdoch-keir-starmer-labour-party-power-no-10?CMP=share_btn_tw

In to see the boss.


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[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/09/rupert-murdoch-keir-starmer-labour-party-power-no-10?CMP=share_btn_tw

In to see the boss.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkToxic neo-liberalism it is then.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/09/rupert-murdoch-keir-starmer-labour-party-power-no-10?CMP=share_btn_tw

In to see the boss.


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https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347404343_226655686909999_8324641891840374428_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=s8Lq4R612s8AX9rDxIk&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfA-1XHKREBBLokJmIuqZGZGo_I85UStaP0DBJIvV8VnNQ&oe=64AEB9F0

[archie]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347404343_226655686909999_8324641891840374428_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=s8Lq4R612s8AX9rDxIk&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfA-1XHKREBBLokJmIuqZGZGo_I85UStaP0DBJIvV8VnNQ&oe=64AEB9F0

Just to cut to the chase, is your position when the SNP do this it's good and when Labour do it it's bad?

[cabbageandribs1875]

mind ask the other cheek their thoughts :agree: come on Sarwar lets be having ya

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/358469369_6460652123991564_4587977154688803793_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=lNBqkaHtHZEAX8_LNjD&_nc_oc=AQnPjF9sI__-cqHhop7h28NCWBfmuscLoKNCNomkZsiPzEuXfE3ysJ05rYcYUF kNN-U&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfB6igcFxPXre___HFPowPbOv99obPCMcARhBOz2IfQ2 uQ&oe=64B0E444

[Fiddich]

Just to cut to the chase, is your position when the SNP do this it's good and when Labour do it it's bad?

Does Starmer have a position? Lurches from one to the other depending on how he looks.

At least here in Scotland the SNP are consistent We need to say goodbye to the shambles of Westminster.

[archie]

Does Starmer have a position? Lurches from one to the other depending on how he looks.

At least here in Scotland the SNP are consistent We need to say goodbye to the shambles of Westminster.

That's as maybe. The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it? Do you have a view?

[Ozyhibby]

That's as maybe. The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it? Do you have a view?

It’s not ok for either. As far as I know the SNP no longer court him.


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[Fiddich]

That's as maybe. The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it? Do you have a view?

Yesterday's question was - is Murdoch in any way relevant in today's politics? Who cares what Murdoch says? If Starmer and Labour are cosying up to Murdoch, then they really are yesterday's news.

Today's question is - when will there be another referendum on Scotland's Freedom?

[xyz23jc]

It’s not ok for either. As far as I know the SNP no longer court him.


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As someone once said...
[
When you hear me say “by any means necessary,” I mean exactly that. I believe in anything that is necessary to correct unjust conditions, political, economic, social, physical, anything that is necessary.

:giruy2:

[archie]

As someone once said...
[
When you hear me say “by any means necessary,” I mean exactly that. I believe in anything that is necessary to correct unjust conditions, political, economic, social, physical, anything that is necessary.

:giruy2:

So Labour are right to do it?

[archie]

Yesterday's question was - is Murdoch in any way relevant in today's politics? Who cares what Murdoch says? If Starmer and Labour are cosying up to Murdoch, then they really are yesterday's news.

Today's question is - when will there be another referendum on Scotland's Freedom?
And any thoughts on my question?

[Fiddich]

And any thoughts on my question?

Yir question wis irrelevant. any judge would agree. Yisterdays news. Git over it labour boy. :greengrin When will Scotland be free from westminster is the relevant question?

[archie]

Yir question wis irrelevant. any judge would agree. Yisterdays news. Git over it labour boy. :greengrin When will Scotland be free from westminster is the relevant question?

Not irrelevant at all. But I can see why you don't want to address it.

[Fiddich]

Not irrelevant at all. But I can see why you don't want to address it.

I'll address any question. Don't feel the need to if its irrelevant, but, I'll bite, whit is it that you want addressed? My guid man?

[archie]

I'll address any question. Don't feel the need to if its irrelevant, but, I'll bite, whit is it that you want addressed? My guid man?

The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it?

[Fiddich]

The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it?

Okay, give me some background to your question, when did the SNP last court Murdoch, and when did last Labour?

[archie]

Okay, give me some background to your question, when did the SNP last court Murdoch, and when did last Labour?

Both the previous FMs were active. Alex Salmond was criticised by the Levinson enquiry for his lobbying for Murdoch. Nicola Sturgeon was often featured in the sun and met Murdoch in NY in the margins of a meeting with the wall Street Journal editorial team. This meeting was not made public until some time later. The Sun has been supportive of the SNP in elections. In UK elections it has supported the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England and Wales. Murdoch does not want a Labour government.

[Fiddich]

Both the previous FMs were active. Alex Salmond was criticised by the Levinson enquiry for his lobbying for Murdoch. Nicola Sturgeon was often featured in the sun and met Murdoch in NY in the margins of a meeting with the wall Street Journal editorial team. This meeting was not made public until some time later. The Sun has been supportive of the SNP in elections. In UK elections it has supported the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England and Wales. Murdoch does not want a Labour government.

Its called divide and rule dummy. Most take an opposition view, the one that they think will win their argument. I thought you had more than that. Every politician will pretend to be the public obvious, in order to win their ground. Dearie me. :greengrin

[archie]

Its called divide and rule dummy. Most take an opposition view, the one that they think will win their argument. I thought you had more than that. Every politician will pretend to be the public obvious, in order to win their ground. Dearie me. :greengrin

So your answer to my question is?

[Fiddich]

So your answer to my question is?


What actually is your question? :greengrin

Do all politicians lie? Yes all of the time! In order to obtain their main priority. Now, lets get back to, when will Scotland free itself from westminster slavery? That is the pertinent, most important objective. As Tony B Liar would say, Independence Independence Independence, and so say all of us :greengrin

[archie]

What actually is your question? :greengrin

Do all politicians lie? Yes all of the time! In order to obtain their main priority. Now, lets get back to, when will Scotland free itself from westminster slavery? That is the pertinent, most important objective. As Tony B Liar would say, Independence Independence Independence, and so say all of us :greengrin
The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it?

[Ozyhibby]

The question was whether it was ok when the SNP court Murdoch and bad if Labour do it?

When was the last time the SNP courted Murdoch?


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[archie]

When was the last time the SNP courted Murdoch?


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How can I know? The previous two first ministers were very active in doing it.

[Kato]

How can I know. The previous two first ministers were very active in doing it.Archie. The question degree remains and terms like "very active" doesn't make sense unless previous tory pms were "frantically active" and, at the moment it seems, Keith Starmer is "fanatically active". Yours posts do lack nuance.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/09/rupert-murdoch-keir-starmer-labour-party-power-no-10


"Nor were their discussions always initiated by the Murdoch side. “We can’t keep him [Starmer] away,” said the source."

Does that equate to the same level of degree SNP have "sought" help from News International.

Given the evidence what do you say?

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[Stairway 2 7]

Taxing private schools would bring in around £1.6 billion a year a report finds, with only 3% of kids jumping from private to state due to it. Would be enough to give doctors a 20% raise. Get it done

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending

[Ozyhibby]

Taxing private schools would bring in around £1.6 billion a year a report finds, with only 3% of kids jumping from private to state due to it. Would be enough to give doctors a 20% raise. Get it done

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending

I’d rather they spent it on schools. I think it would be more than 3% though.


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[archie]

Archie. The question degree remains and terms like "very active" doesn't make sense unless previous tory pms were "frantically active" and, at the moment it seems, Keith Starmer is "fanatically active". Yours posts do lack nuance.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/09/rupert-murdoch-keir-starmer-labour-party-power-no-10


"Nor were their discussions always initiated by the Murdoch side. “We can’t keep him [Starmer] away,” said the source."

Does that equate to the same level of degree SNP have "sought" help from News International.

Given the evidence what do you say?

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I think Alex Salmond being criticised in the Levison report for his lobbying for Murdoch is pretty damning. Equally, Nicola Sturgeon was happy to be featured holding the Sun and met with senior News International staff, as well as Murdoch himself in New York. Now my issue isn't that politicians shouldn't do it - I get the pragmatic side to it. It's the thunderous denunciations if Labour politicians do it and the virtual silence if the SNP do it. Now it may be that you hold Labour to a higher standard and maybe that's right to do so. But I do find the selective blindness a bit dispiriting.

Here's a report from 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/30/scottish-sun-snp-rupert-murdoch-nicola-sturgeon

[greenginger]

I’d rather they spent it on schools. I think it would be more than 3% though.


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Maybe only 3% would take their kids out of private education that they were half way through, but a hell of a lot more would not even consider starting private education for their kids.

At what point does the extra tax raised get completely swallowed by the cost of state education for the additional pupil intake.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’d rather they spent it on schools. I think it would be more than 3% though.


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They estimate 3-7% moving which would cost £100-300 million in extra fees to the state. Even if it was 10% it would be dwarfed by income gained by tax. The doctors thing was obviously just an example of what these bams are getting away with, the money will just go into the budget pot

[Ozyhibby]

I think Alex Salmond being criticised in the Levison report for his lobbying for Murdoch is pretty damning. Equally, Nicola Sturgeon was happy to be featured holding the Sun and met with senior News International staff, as well as Murdoch himself in New York. Now my issue isn't that politicians shouldn't do it - I get the pragmatic side to it. It's the thunderous denunciations if Labour politicians do it and the virtual silence if the SNP do it. Now it may be that you hold Labour to a higher standard and maybe that's right to do so. But I do find the selective blindness a bit dispiriting.

Here's a report from 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/30/scottish-sun-snp-rupert-murdoch-nicola-sturgeon

So an invitation to sit in on the Wall Street journal’s editorial board meeting, where Murdoch popped in towards the end and had no private time with Sturgeon is the equal of what Starmer is currently doing? And Sturgeons visit to the Wall Street journal was 8 years ago. Starmer is currently costing up to Murdoch and the Sun.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe only 3% would take their kids out of private education that they were half way through, but a hell of a lot more would not even consider starting private education for their kids.

At what point does the extra tax raised get completely swallowed by the cost of state education for the additional pupil intake.

The 3-7% is taking I less uptake in further years. And it would have to be massively higher than that before it doesn't make a profit for the government

[neil7908]

So an invitation to sit in on the Wall Street journal’s editorial board meeting, where Murdoch popped in towards the end and had no private time with Sturgeon is the equal of what Starmer is currently doing? And Sturgeons visit to the Wall Street journal was 8 years ago. Starmer is currently costing up to Murdoch and the Sun.


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Why does it matter if it was 8 years ago? Murdoch was hardly some force for good back then - he's the same then as he was now.

I don't like Starmer doing it now, just as I didn't like it from Salmond and Sturgeon.

To Sturgeons credit, I think she learnt her lesson.

More than anything though, it makes me sad that no senior politician in this country can be successful without Murdoch. What a mess we are.

[Ozyhibby]

The fees in Edinburgh’s private schools went up 20% this year due to inflation and the parents are doing their dinger at it. Lots of kids being pulled out. Another 20% VAT on top of that and you will see a big drop in their rolls.


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[Kato]

I think Alex Salmond being criticised in the Levison report for his lobbying for Murdoch is pretty damning. Equally, Nicola Sturgeon was happy to be featured holding the Sun and met with senior News International staff, as well as Murdoch himself in New York. Now my issue isn't that politicians shouldn't do it - I get the pragmatic side to it. It's the thunderous denunciations if Labour politicians do it and the virtual silence if the SNP do it. Now it may be that you hold Labour to a higher standard and maybe that's right to do so. But I do find the selective blindness a bit dispiriting.

Here's a report from 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/30/scottish-sun-snp-rupert-murdoch-nicola-sturgeonOk. I won't ask the question again.

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[Ozyhibby]

Why does it matter if it was 8 years ago? Murdoch was hardly some force for good back then - he's the same then as he was now.

I don't like Starmer doing it now, just as I didn't like it from Salmond and Sturgeon.

To Sturgeons credit, I think she learnt her lesson.

More than anything though, it makes me sad that no senior politician in this country can be successful without Murdoch. What a mess we are.

Sturgeon was successful without Murdoch.


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[archie]

Why does it matter if it was 8 years ago? Murdoch was hardly some force for good back then - he's the same then as he was now.

I don't like Starmer doing it now, just as I didn't like it from Salmond and Sturgeon.

To Sturgeons credit, I think she learnt her lesson.

More than anything though, it makes me sad that no senior politician in this country can be successful without Murdoch. What a mess we are.

Well it matters in as much as Labour are being criticised on here for doing by SNP supporters.

[archie]

Ok. I won't ask the question again.

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You're always free to ask questions!

[archie]

The fees in Edinburgh’s private schools went up 20% this year due to inflation and the parents are doing their dinger at it. Lots of kids being pulled out. Another 20% VAT on top of that and you will see a big drop in their rolls.


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So do you think they shouldn't be taxed because of that?

[Ozyhibby]

Well it matters in as much as Labour are being criticised on here for doing by SNP supporters.

Labour should be criticised for still courting Murdoch. If the SNP were still doing it I would criticise them as well.


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[Ozyhibby]

So do you think they shouldn't be taxed because of that?

No, I’m all for it so long as it goes to improving schools.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I think Alex Salmond being criticised in the Levison report for his lobbying for Murdoch is pretty damning. Equally, Nicola Sturgeon was happy to be featured holding the Sun and met with senior News International staff, as well as Murdoch himself in New York. Now my issue isn't that politicians shouldn't do it - I get the pragmatic side to it. It's the thunderous denunciations if Labour politicians do it and the virtual silence if the SNP do it. Now it may be that you hold Labour to a higher standard and maybe that's right to do so. But I do find the selective blindness a bit dispiriting.

Here's a report from 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/30/scottish-sun-snp-rupert-murdoch-nicola-sturgeon

2015!!! You don't half live in the past.

[archie]

2015!!! You don't half live in the past.

Do you think it's not relevant? I assume you will say the same for people who cite Thatcher, Blair, the Iraq War etc?

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you think it's not relevant? I assume you will say the same for people who cite Thatcher, Blair, the Iraq War etc?

We should concern ourselves with those who currently have power, one of those you cite is dead and the other sticks his nose in where it's not wanted. A bit like gordon brown.

[archie]

We should concern ourselves with those who currently have power, one of those you cite is dead and the other sticks his nose in where it's not wanted. A bit like gordon brown.

OK, though worth acknowledging that some of the interventions you cite may not be what you want.

[Moulin Yarns]

OK, though worth acknowledging that some of the interventions you cite may not be what you want.

That's rich. Please tell me what interventions have I cited 🤔

[greenginger]

The 3-7% is taking I less uptake in further years. And it would have to be massively higher than that before it doesn't make a profit for the government

A rough calc. Would show if more than 25% of privately educated pupil numbers were in state education the government would be in negative territory with the tax raised.

A huge number of kids have their fees paid partly or wholly by grandparents and I don’t think this will be a continuing arrangement.

[Ozyhibby]

A rough calc. Would show if more than 25% of privately educated pupil numbers were in state education the government would be in negative territory with the tax raised.

A huge number of kids have their fees paid partly or wholly by grandparents and I don’t think this will be a continuing arrangement.

I don’t think this policy is about the money to be honest so that doesn’t really matter.


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[Stairway 2 7]

A rough calc. Would show if more than 25% of privately educated pupil numbers were in state education the government would be in negative territory with the tax raised.

A huge number of kids have their fees paid partly or wholly by grandparents and I don’t think this will be a continuing arrangement.

Not a chance 25% are leaving at one point the private school boards were pushing a 15% worst scenario, I'm more inclined to believe the independent studies 3-7% over guesswork or the private schools.

[Ozyhibby]

Not a chance 25% are leaving at one point the private school boards were pushing a 15% worst scenario, I'm more inclined to believe the independent studies 3-7% over guesswork or the private schools.

I have to admit I have no clue how price sensitive that market is but a rise of more than 40% is significant. It won’t be a low number I would think.
It’s not just the VAT that would be added, it’s all the tax benefits the school itself receives that would need to be fed back into the fees as well. No idea how many kids have to come back to the state sector but it should focus wealthier peoples minds on the health of state education.


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[greenginger]

Not a chance 25% are leaving at one point the private school boards were pushing a 15% worst scenario, I'm more inclined to believe the independent studies 3-7% over guesswork or the private schools.

I’m not saying immediately, 5-10 years down the line I believe there will be a huge drop in private educational.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not saying immediately, 5-10 years down the line I believe there will be a huge drop in private educational.

That’s probably more like it. Parents will fight hard not to disrupt their kids education but parents of younger kids may just not go.


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[archie]

That's rich. Please tell me what interventions have I cited 🤔

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's.

[Moulin Yarns]

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's.

You are the one who brought up bliar!!! And brown turns up like a bad smell every so often.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not saying immediately, 5-10 years down the line I believe there will be a huge drop in private educational.

https://twitter.com/gmacdonaldsnp/status/1678778185184595973?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

While there is education chat on the go.


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[grunt]

https://twitter.com/gmacdonaldsnp/status/1678778185184595973?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

While there is education chat on the go.
You can't compare Scotland with England.

[Smartie]

I’m not saying immediately, 5-10 years down the line I believe there will be a huge drop in private educational.

Is there a reason behind why you believe this to be the case?

I'd expect the opposite to be true. People will always find the money for what matters the most to them and for most people education is a high priority. I don't see any public services getting any better of the next couple of decades irrespective of who gets in at Westminster or Holyrood as we reap our Brexit benefits etc. More people will imo somehow find the money to send their kids to private schools in place of an alternative that an increasing number will come to believe to be substandard (ties in a bit with the violence in schools thread).

[J-C]

See Lisa Nandy make an erse of herself a wee bit on GMB, her own website says she's totally against any building on greenbelt land but trying to justify Labour's stance that building on that land may be an option. Even Ed Balls was having a right go at her and told her maybe she ought to change her website as it's contradictory to what she's saying.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there a reason behind why you believe this to be the case?

I'd expect the opposite to be true. People will always find the money for what matters the most to them and for most people education is a high priority. I don't see any public services getting any better of the next couple of decades irrespective of who gets in at Westminster or Holyrood as we reap our Brexit benefits etc. More people will imo somehow find the money to send their kids to private schools in place of an alternative that an increasing number will come to believe to be substandard (ties in a bit with the violence in schools thread).

If that was true everyone would go private. The normal rules of economics still apply though. If you haven’t got enough money then you can’t have it. The more the prices rises, the more people who can’t afford it.


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[Stairway 2 7]

If that was true everyone would go private. The normal rules of economics still apply though. If you haven’t got enough money then you can’t have it. The more the prices rises, the more people who can’t afford it.


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The rich always are used to it. Private schools raise prices well beyond inflation every year sometimes 10%. They know they can because the numbers go up each year. I'm sure most will find a way and if not their places will be taken by Chinese/Hong Kong children

I don't think anyone from either side is saying it won't make a profit for the government, but more than that its the right thing to do

[Smartie]

If that was true everyone would go private. The normal rules of economics still apply though. If you haven’t got enough money then you can’t have it. The more the prices rises, the more people who can’t afford it.


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There are plenty of people who "can afford it" who choose not to.

My parents could afford to send me and my brothers to a private school but chose not to as the school local to us was excellent and there wasn't a compelling reason to pay to go elsewhere.

My brother lives in the same area and let his son get to primary 3 before a daily dose of violence meant that he was packed off to private school pronto and has thrived since.

Unfortunately sending my kids to private school is unlikely to be an option so mine will need to make do, but there are plenty of people who are in a position to make a choice and I'd be astonished if there's much of a drop off over the coming years.

[Since90+2]

The rich always are used to it. Private schools raise prices well beyond inflation every year sometimes 10%. They know they can because the numbers go up each year. I'm sure most will find a way and if not their places will be taken by Chinese/Hong Kong children

I don't think anyone from either side is saying it won't make a profit for the government, but more than that its the right thing to do

It will depend on what your definition of "rich" is.

Some will be able to afford it, and some simply won't, some people are looking at £500+ extra a month on their mortgages alone.

As Ozy says the basics of economics still apply, those who are extremely well off will of course be sheltered, but not everyone who sends their kids private is extremely well off, or "rich".

[Jack]

I'm quite sure the private schools could dip into their substantial reserves/assets to lessen the burden on their current students families at least in the short term until a new equilibrium was found.

Indeed in recent years the sector has been squirreling away hefty sums perhaps in anticipation of this very thing happening.

The current system that gives them charitable status is a nonsense and basically providing a subsidy to the already very wealthy.

[Stairway 2 7]

It will depend on what your definition of "rich" is.

Some will be able to afford it, and some simply won't, some people are looking at £500+ extra a month on their mortgages alone.

As Ozy says the basics of economics still apply, those who are extremely well off will of course be sheltered, but not everyone who sends their kids private is extremely well off, or "rich".

When a large number of People are toiling to heat their homes then People who can pay 10k a year for there kids to go to school are extremely well off. If they can't afford to send there kids then boohoo they will have 10k or whatever per kid to spend.

I'm sure the independent study has a better idea than us speculating. They say 3/7% drop and £1.6 billion a year to the government, fantastic

[Since90+2]

When a large number of People are toiling to heat their homes then People who can pay 10k a year for there kids to go to school are extremely well off. If they can't afford to send there kids then boohoo they will have 10k or whatever per kid to spend.

I'm sure the independent study has a better idea than us speculating. They say 3/7% drop and £1.6 billion a year to the government, fantastic

Well if they can't afford the 10k a year they aren't "rich" as per your original post. The are just normal working people who earn a good salary who wanted the best for their kids, who may now need to be moved out of their school.

Each to their own, but I'd not be talking any joy in that or saying boo boo.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well if they can't afford the 10k a year they aren't "rich" as per your original post. The are just normal working people who earn a good salary who wanted the best for their kids, who may now need to be moved out of their school.

Each to their own, but I'd not be talking any joy in that or saying boo boo.

Your definition of rich is different to a lot of people in the uk. The top 6% of the population go to private school, painting it like the average hardworking person is daft. If they can't afford it they will have to slum it with the 94% of kids. Their mums and dad's will have 10k a year spare so won't go hungry unlike the 29% of kids that live in poverty in the uk.

Hopefully the billions made from the top 6% can help those at the bottom. It's great along with SNPs new council tax rates

[Since90+2]

Your definition of rich is different to a lot of people in the uk. The top 6% of the population go to private school, painting it like the average hardworking person is daft. If they can't afford it they will have to slum it with the 94% of kids. Their mums and dad's will have 10k a year spare so won't go hungry unlike the 29% of kids that live in poverty in the uk.

Hopefully the billions made from the top 6% can help those at the bottom. It's great along with SNPs new council tax rates

You do realise that there will be a good percentage of folk who are better off and use state schools than some of those who send their kids to private school don't you?

Actually, no need to answer that.

[Stairway 2 7]

You do realise that there will be a good percentage of folk who are better off and use state schools than some of those who send their kids to private school don't you?

Actually, no need to answer that.

What difference does it make. Its madness to say the 6% of kids that pay on average more than 10k a year for education, aren't from the top of British wealth. There's lots of people I feel terrible for. The say 5% of that 6% who will have 10k per year spare disposable extra, aren't top of my list

[Since90+2]

What difference does it make. Its madness to say the 6% of kids that pay on average more than 10k a year for education, aren't from the top of British wealth. There's lots of people I feel terrible for. The say 5% of that 6% who will have 10k per year spare disposable extra, aren't top of my list

Might not be top of your list, but to say "boohoo" to families who might have to uproot their children and the significant impact that can have on young children says more about you than them TBH.

[Stairway 2 7]

Might not be top of your list, but to say "boohoo" to families who might have to uproot their children and the significant impact that can have on young children says more about you than them TBH.

No it says I prioritize billions of pounds coming from the most fortunate in society.

Put it this way if they had to pay taxes forever, would a party introduce spending over a billion pound a year to stop that, so a little more of the top 10% could send their kids to private school.

SNP raising council tax will have an adverse effect on the top in society too, but it's fair and just. The top have to support the bottom.

[Since90+2]

No it says I prioritize billions of pounds coming from the most fortunate in society.

Put it this way if they had to pay taxes forever, would a party introduce spending over a billion pound a year to stop that, so a little more of the top 10% could send their kids to private school.

SNP raising council tax will have an adverse effect on the top in society too, but it's fair and just. The top have to support the bottom.

The discussion was originally about the 40% increase in private education, not council tax.

[lapsedhibee]

The discussion was originally about the 40% increase in private education, not council tax.

What's the 40% figure? Thought the debate was just about adding VAT on to fees.

[Stairway 2 7]

When the SNP cut business rates for private schools, the private schools said the price increases would make them lose 15% of pupils, infact pupil numbers rose this year.

Their net assets also rose 13 million in Scotland, they aren't charities they are money making organisations

https://archive.ph/CplH4

[Stairway 2 7]

What's the 40% figure? Thought the debate was just about adding VAT on to fees.

Oz is saying some went up 20% already, I can see herriots went up 10% to 16.4k for seniors. But yes paying tax could be around 20%

[Ozyhibby]

Oz is saying some went up 20% already, I can see herriots went up 10% to 16.4k for seniors. But yes paying tax could be around 20%

Stew mel is £16k this year.


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[lapsedhibee]

Oz is saying some went up 20% already, I can see herriots went up 10% to 16.4k for seniors. But yes paying tax could be around 20%
:aok:

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer on Kuenssberg this morning is a depressing watch for anyone expecting big change when he wins.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230716/3f59ae7d0ff074ebe2fa0988755310a2.jpg


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[neil7908]

Starmer on Kuenssberg this morning is a depressing watch for anyone expecting big change when he wins.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230716/3f59ae7d0ff074ebe2fa0988755310a2.jpg


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Ouch. Every now and then Labour come out with something that makes me think I might just manage to vote for them.

Then stuff like this happens and I come to my senses.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/davidlinden/status/1680504465470652416?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Fair play, Starmer couldn’t be clearer in this video.

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[grunt]

https://twitter.com/davidlinden/status/1680504465470652416?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Fair play, Starmer couldn’t be clearer in this video.
Whereas Kuenssberg couldn't have been less clear.

[Stairway 2 7]

Whereas Kuenssberg couldn't have been less clear.

She's a horror, they are well matched actually. Ending the cap was in his leadership campaign

Yesterday she did a tory hit piece on Starmer for her bosses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66211151.amp

[grunt]

She's a horror, they are well matched actually. Ending the cap was in his leadership campaign
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1225465424092987393?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

She's a horror, they are well matched actually. Ending the cap was in his leadership campaign

Yesterday she did a tory hit piece on Starmer for her bosses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66211151.amp

That was to be leader of the Labour Party though. He’s changed it into something else since.


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[archie]

No it says I prioritize billions of pounds coming from the most fortunate in society.

Put it this way if they had to pay taxes forever, would a party introduce spending over a billion pound a year to stop that, so a little more of the top 10% could send their kids to private school.

SNP raising council tax will have an adverse effect on the top in society too, but it's fair and just. The top have to support the bottom.

I disagree on the Council tax having an effect only on the top in society. Because it's a regressive tax and takes no account (except and the extreme margins) of ability to pay. It will hit retirees particularly. I note the response to this argument on here last time it arose was **** em! I don't see, however, how people can defend a tax that takes no account of ability to pay. All politicos have bottled this.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/ConnorBrunniche/status/1680525897915408385?t=JUX8aiiSRJYphNotQ3iNvA&s=19

[Hibrandenburg]

Mick Lynch also saying that Labour need to distinguish themselves from the Daily Mail and the Tories.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/rmt-boss-mick-lynch-criticises-093700437.html

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1680570359764975616?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Daily Record political editor.


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[degenerated]

Starmer on Kuenssberg this morning is a depressing watch for anyone expecting big change when he wins.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230716/3f59ae7d0ff074ebe2fa0988755310a2.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAwkward one for sarwar to square should be become mayor of Scotland region. He'll either have to fall into line or use Scottish tax payers money to mitigate his own parties policies.

[Ozyhibby]

Awkward one for sarwar to square should be become mayor of Scotland region. He'll either have to fall into line or use Scottish tax payers money to mitigate his own parties policies.

I can’t see Sarwar stepping out of line on any UK policy. Whatever the policy is in England, we’ll have the same.


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[Glory Lurker]

Scotland only matters to Labour for seats, under FPTP. We're 9% of the population. Diddy, but useful in a bigger game.

Tony Blair didnae ken Jack McConnell's name, and he wis FM!

[grunt]

I can’t see Sarwar stepping out of line on any UK policy. Whatever the policy is in England, we’ll have the same.

Regardless of what he's said in the past.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1K6eHkXgAIVKvZ?format=jpg&name=medium

[degenerated]

I can’t see Sarwar stepping out of line on any UK policy. Whatever the policy is in England, we’ll have the same.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI suppose if he took the money that the Scottish government uses to mitigate to it he could treat it as surplus and send it back to Westminster like previous labour administrations at the Scottish Executive did. It might be enough to get him a peerage.

[Glory Lurker]

I suppose if he took the money that the Scottish government uses to mitigate to it he could treat it as surplus and send it back to Westminster like previous labour administrations at the Scottish Executive did. It might be enough to get him a peerage.

It's not as easy as that. He needs to look ridiculous in a pinstripe kilt and brand Scotland as "the best small country in the world" to deserve that!

Smoking ban wis sound, but.

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/LabourRichard/status/1680554471103819778?s=20

Richard Leonard (remember him?) coming out against Starmer.
Scottish Labour in complete disarray?

[degenerated]

It's not as easy as that. He needs to look ridiculous in a pinstripe kilt and brand Scotland as "the best small country in the world" to deserve that!

Smoking ban wis sound, but.Who could forget :hilarious27008

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

There's some very iffy editing and chopping going on there - was it done by a three year-old with a Fisher Price laptop?

Said it before, it was Labourr who inroduced child benefit in the first place. The manifesto will set out the party's proposals for government. My personal opinion is that there will be a policy offer that is more targeted - probably involving something around cutting back High Income Child Benefit.

At the end of the day, the Tories don't have any track record on helping the disadvantaged. And the SNP were more interested in clinging onto power to further their independence ambitions, than actually doing the hard yards - which is why we got and have middle-class bribes like free prescriptions and the council tax freeze, and why a quarter of Scottish children are in poverty.

Hold on a wee second, is free prescriptions a “middle class bribe”? I’m not from a middle class upbringing but we do alright, we get by. My wife takes 8 tablets daily for pain relief from her physical disabilities and also for ADHD and OCD. All in that comes to 6 different medications in each prescription, in England that would mean that each prescription would cost us £57.90 in prescription charges if I’m understanding correctly. Now imagine someone who is less fortunate than myself having to fork out £57.90 every two weeks so that their spouse, child, mother, whatever, can live in something that almost resembles comfort. Free prescriptions is one of the things that I would stop voting for a party I supported if they wanted to scrap it, it’s a god send not just for me but for thousands across the country.


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[Jack]

I'll gently point out that if the English can afford a little over a £100 they can buy a years worth of prescriptions, £30ish a month.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hold on a wee second, is free prescriptions a “middle class bribe”? I’m not from a middle class upbringing but we do alright, we get by. My wife takes 8 tablets daily for pain relief from her physical disabilities and also for ADHD and OCD. All in that comes to 6 different medications in each prescription, in England that would mean that each prescription would cost us £57.90 in prescription charges if I’m understanding correctly. Now imagine someone who is less fortunate than myself having to fork out £57.90 every two weeks so that their spouse, child, mother, whatever, can live in something that almost resembles comfort. Free prescriptions is one of the things that I would stop voting for a party I supported if they wanted to scrap it, it’s a god send not just for me but for thousands across the country.


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That sounds bad, and you make a decent point, however, and I'm willing to be corrected, I'm sure you don't pay anything like that if you are on long term repeat prescription in England.

[Stairway 2 7]

89% of prescriptions are free in England, but I'm glad ours are 100%. With people choosing what to cut in their lives right now medications could be on the list for some.

[wookie70]

89% of prescriptions are free in England, but I'm glad ours are 100%. With people choosing what to cut in their lives right now medications could be on the list for some. And that could cost the taxpayer more in teh long run.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/mickwhitleymp/status/1680583424938070017?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

There are still some Labour mp’s willing to stand up for kids.


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[Jack]

https://twitter.com/mickwhitleymp/status/1680583424938070017?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

There are still some Labour mp’s willing to stand up for kids.


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They probably won't be Labour MPs for long!

[neil7908]

They probably won't be Labour MPs for long!

Yup. No place in this current Labour Party for compassion or anything that might even look a bit left leaning.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yup. No place in this current Labour Party for compassion or anything that might even look a bit left leaning.

Yes but that's only a gimmick to get pink faced racists to vote for them, apparently once they're in power they will take the Boris Johnson masks off and turn the UK into a socialist Utopia.

[Ozyhibby]

Nothing on the BBC today about UK and Scottish Labour now having different policies on the two child policy? I would have thought that would be a big story? Surely they would want Anas Sarwar’s opinion on this?


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[degenerated]

Nothing on the BBC today about UK and Scottish Labour now having different policies on the two child policy? I would have thought that would be a big story? Surely they would want Anas Sarwar’s opinion on this?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCourse not, they'll be too busy looking for stories about ferries. 27010

[Ozyhibby]

All quiet from Anas today so far? Surely he wants to get out and disown UK Labour on this?

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1680906054756859904?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Ozyhibby]

All quiet from Anas today so far? Surely he wants to get out and disown UK Labour on this?

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1680906054756859904?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Apologies, he has given an interview to the Scotland where he says although it’s a heinous policy he will still support it. Scottish Labour in a nutshell.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/502bff24c34e9a1f652fcc4ac5b2a1aa.jpg


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

For all of the SNPs faults in Scotland. Labour are so much worse. Yet, they're still going to gain ground in Scotland on the back of the collapsed tory vote by pandering to the worst tory policies, regardless of how vile they are. Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. Is this honestly the best we can do in Scotland?

[neil7908]

Apologies, he has given an interview to the Scotland where he says although it’s a heinous policy he will still support it. Scottish Labour in a nutshell.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/502bff24c34e9a1f652fcc4ac5b2a1aa.jpg


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What an absolutely dreadful defence. Maybe he needs to look up the word heinous in the dictionary?

To suggest it's a heinous policy but it's OK to keep it going because of something the last Tory PM did is bonkers.

We've seen the real Keir Starmer and as saying goes - when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[Ozyhibby]

What an absolutely dreadful defence. Maybe he needs to look up the word heinous in the dictionary?

To suggest it's a heinous policy but it's OK to keep it going because of something the last Tory PM did is bonkers.

We've seen the real Keir Starmer and as saying goes - when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Jackie Baillie compared the policy to China’s one child policy. Wonder if she still thinks this? Where are the BBC in asking the questions? Couldn’t get enough of Angus McNeil getting kicked out the SNP last week.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Jackie Baillie compared the policy to China’s one child policy. Wonder if she still thinks this? Where are the BBC in asking the questions? Couldn’t get enough of Angus McNeil getting kicked out the SNP last week.


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As long as Starmer doesn't commit himself to the hugely popular manifesto that was put forward by Corbyn, the corporate media will continue to be completely tone deaf over Labour.

[DaveF]

Apologies, he has given an interview to the Scotland where he says although it’s a heinous policy he will still support it. Scottish Labour in a nutshell.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/502bff24c34e9a1f652fcc4ac5b2a1aa.jpg


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What an embarrassment. And another reason (if I needed one) that I will never vote Labour ever again.

[neil7908]

The more I read about this decision the more I am stunned.

Removing it would lift 250,000 children out of poverty and a further 850,000 children out of deep poverty.

This should be the absolute no. 1 priority for any Labour leader. It'll cost £1.3bn. OK, maybe we should tax the wealthy a tiny amount extra to pay for it then? You know, like parties on the left have been doing successfully for decades.

A Labour leader is literally siding with large corporations and millionaires to keep hundreds of thousands of children in poverty.

Now that is heinous. What an absolute disgrace. They truly are the red Tories.

[cabbageandribs1875]

another Labour politician with a backbone Left-wing Mayor quits Labour with blast at Keir Starmer over 'broken promises' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/left-wing-mayor-quits-labour-with-blast-at-keir-starmer-over-broken-promises/ar-AA1dYvVh?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=91962e30c4384599bfff2f3ab6615ce3&ei=44)

[cabbageandribs1875]

he's not just a fiscal Tory...


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348286680_661711435994055_8069178180953629018_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=OhVoxbwc2EcAX-th_Nj&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDwxeNF230lfpA0QTwzftOKYzwopEtip_eIwSQK3Ahb YQ&oe=64BB2075

[TrumpIsAPeado]

A Labour leader is literally siding with large corporations and millionaires to keep hundreds of thousands of children in poverty.

Starmer knows who funds him. Labour has fallen into the trap of putting party donors front and centre of their policy programme. The needs of the voter no longer matters, as long as the vote is guaranteed anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/06dabd863ddf72be2bf59d6fa96b95b7.jpg

Sarwar today. What an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1680952977379532800?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://i.ibb.co/gWrzDwr/The-True-Blue-Labour-Leader.png

[wookie70]

Apologies, he has given an interview to the Scotland where he says although it’s a heinous policy he will still support it. Scottish Labour in a nutshell.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/502bff24c34e9a1f652fcc4ac5b2a1aa.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When do we get to vote on the markets. It appears they govern us. A bunch of toffs who do gossip for a very lucrative career who are the absolute epitome of how badly the world manages to recognise worth and talent

[wookie70]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/06dabd863ddf72be2bf59d6fa96b95b7.jpg

Sarwar today. What an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1680952977379532800?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

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As soon as I hear a politician say to be really clear I know they have not got a clue what they think. What a weak position and he may as well say I do as I'm telt

[degenerated]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/06dabd863ddf72be2bf59d6fa96b95b7.jpg

Sarwar today. What an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1680952977379532800?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkStarmer has made sarwar look like a complete tit with this one, and sarwar is far from needing help in that respect.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer has made sarwar look like a complete tit with this one, and sarwar is far from needing help in that respect.

Scottish Labour have been doing a lot of celebrating recently but they still have to show they can get through an election campaign with this guy. He is never tested just now as he rarely appears in the media at all, he’s never at the parliament. Once a proper campaign comes round though, he’s going to have to front up and on the basis of today’s performance, that might not be great for them.
Imagine going into a campaign saying the only change you want is to Keir Starmers policies.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Jamie Driscoll who just resigned from the Labour Party earlier on today after being snubbed by the party in the major election race has raised nearly £50k for his independent election campaign in just a few hours after being told by the party that they didn't think he'd be able to win again. I can see there being a fair few elected independents across the UK following the next election.

[grunt]

I don't usually like people making up names for politicians, but I thought this was quite amusing ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1QRoZYWAAAmGkT?format=jpg&name=small

[grunt]

Being serious for just a second, I do feel for Starmer's predicament. By the time he becomes PM the country's finances will be in a dreadful state, so he's got a point in saying that the country can't afford uncosted giveaways. It's a sneak preview of just how hard the next 10 years will be on the UK population. Grim.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Being serious for just a second, I do feel for Starmer's predicament. By the time he becomes PM the country's finances will be in a dreadful state, so he's got a point in saying that the country can't afford uncosted giveaways. It's a sneak preview of just how hard the next 10 years will be on the UK population. Grim.

And by the time those 10 years are done, they'll be yet another crash and yet another call for further austerity measures. It's never ending by design.

[Keith_M]

They probably won't be Labour MPs for long!


:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

This article by Poly Toynbee sums up my feelings about the Labour Party and it's current approach.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/17/labour-critics-record-keir-starmer-election-britain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[TrumpIsAPeado]

This article by Poly Toynbee sums up my feelings about the Labour Party and it's current approach.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/17/labour-critics-record-keir-starmer-election-britain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

That's all well and good for those who can afford to kick back and watch Labour carrying out it's commitment to the current agenda. Millions of people are not in that position however and need real tangible change as soon as yesterday. What would be your advise to those people who literally can't manage another 4-5 years of ideologically driven austerity measures?

[Ozyhibby]

Being serious for just a second, I do feel for Starmer's predicament. By the time he becomes PM the country's finances will be in a dreadful state, so he's got a point in saying that the country can't afford uncosted giveaways. It's a sneak preview of just how hard the next 10 years will be on the UK population. Grim.

We could save even more if we stop providing schooling, health services etc for third born kids.[emoji106]
This is a choice thing. It won’t cost that much. This is about sending a message.


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[Hibbyradge]

That's all well and good for those who can afford to kick back and watch Labour carrying out it's commitment to the current agenda. Millions of people are not in that position however and need real tangible change as soon as yesterday. What would be your advise to those people who literally can't manage another 4-5 years of ideologically driven austerity measures?

Did you read the article?

With regard to your final question, I certainly wouldn't tell them to vote Tory. What would you advise them to do?