The future of the Labour Party

[One Day Soon]

That’s definitely true. I was using various forms of social media, Twitter, Facebook etc and trans rights was a very hot topic, but since giving up the social media I’ve barely heard a word about it. I’m glad I don’t have to try and sort it all out as no matter what happens you’re going to have a lot of angry people.

Completely agree, this cannot be resolved and both perspectives accommodated without both sides having to compromise. And neither side appears willing to do that. Lammy is right that Trans rights isn't currently a big issue on the doorsteps, largely because so far the public are unaware of the debate and the policy implications. If he imagines the media, and those women and women's groups opposed to what's happening will leave it that way I think he's being very naive. But then he was only ten or so in the early eighties. I remember Labour trying to sustain a defence policy in public during the 1983 election campaign that none of the front bench agreed upon. Messy doesn't begin to describe it.

[hibsbollah]

Whatever he was trying to say was rather lost in the almost literally hysterical tone of his responses. He's the fourth or fifth Labour frontbencher I've heard being completely derailed by this in interviews and that is going to continue until they develop a position that doesn't end up with them sounding like they are defending the 'bodies with vaginas' stuff.

Objectively it is of course not as important an issue as the others listed - although that depends on who you are, clearly some women feel it is very important. Politically it is already being weaponised against Labour and it's absolutely going to get a lot worse because it is a perfect culture war theme for the Tories to run on until such time as both the substance and the language of the implementation of trans rights is developed in such a way that it is not perceived to be happening at the expense of women's rights.

I think trans people care about the issue. I think Rosie Duffield and Owen Jones care about the issue. Thats a miniscule proportion of the population. I think a load of Telegraph readers that are reading hysterical headlines about Starmer not 'defending Rosie Duffield from being in fear of her life from trans activists' and weaponising that against Labour would never vote Labour anyway and whose views are best ignored. At the end of the day its not much more than a twitter spat between Jones and Duffield and people being horrible to each other on social media. As it happens im more supportive of Duffields view than Jones.

I think Lammy was pissed off about being asked about it, thats all. My advice to all of them when asked the question would be something like, 'this is a situation where two groups have rights, and sometimes these two sets of rights run into conflict with each other. We need to look at individual cases to make sure both sets of rights are being respected. Now please can we talk about Boris Johnson'.

[One Day Soon]

I think trans people care about the issue. I think Rosie Duffield and Owen Jones care about the issue. Thats a miniscule proportion of the population. I think a load of Telegraph readers that are reading hysterical headlines about Starmer not 'defending Rosie Duffield from being in fear of her life from trans activists' and weaponising that against Labour would never vote Labour anyway and whose views are best ignored. At the end of the day its not much more than a twitter spat between Jones and Duffield and people being horrible to each other on social media. As it happens im more supportive of Duffields view than Jones.

I think Lammy was pissed off about being asked about it, thats all. My advice to all of them when asked the question would be something like, 'this is a situation where two groups have rights, and sometimes these two sets of rights run into conflict with each other. We need to look at individual cases to make sure both sets of rights are being respected. Now please can we talk about Boris Johnson'.


I think there are two levels to this. There's the internal Labour Party level in which it has become the latest proxy for Corbynistas versus what, Starmerites? I don't think that stuff matters much at all just now except insofar as when you have a front bencher like Lammy calling people on the women's rights side dinosaurs who want to hoard rights, this can unsurprisingly become problematic when he is subsequently interviewed. While your advisory is neat it won't head off situations like this morning's.

The second level is way beyond the weird and wonderful internal everwar of Labour. There's undoubtedly a growing debate on this stuff as institutions start to feel the force of counter argument and counter action from some women and women's groups on what they see as an erosion of their rights and, more fundamentally, a cancelling of their gender. Maybe this will all come to a rosy conclusion and trans people can get on with living their lives with full civil rights while women do the same. Currently a very limited number of people are even aware of the issue never mind care about it but there are a lot of individuals and key institutions which have a vested interest in either making sure that doesn't continue or which are going to be unable to avoid being dragged into the debate.

[One Day Soon]

Anyway, to more fundamental issues. High noon today is pretty close to a make or break event for Keir Starmer. Though its a mid-term conference so it's all a bit meh. Still, he'll need to at least achieve the equivalent of scoring an away goal to keep his hopes realistically alive I think. Relatable and emotional intelligence would do it, not sure he's capable of it.

[ronaldo7]

Labour conference, have I got this right.

No alliance with SNP
No Freedom of moment
No single market
No customs union
No proportional representation
No keeping your promises

[Ozyhibby]

Labour conference, have I got this right.

No alliance with SNP
No Freedom of moment
No single market
No customs union
No proportional representation
No keeping your promises

Nailed it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Labour conference, have I got this right.

No alliance with SNP
No Freedom of moment
No single market
No customs union
No proportional representation
No keeping your promises

Sadly, I think that just about sums it up.

The most depressing thing is that these policies will have been decided because of focus groups and opinion polls conducted among the electorate that Labour must win back if they're going to have any chance of winning a GE.

The Brexiteers and the right wing in general, have done a great job in moving the country's political beliefs. It's horrible.

[hibsbollah]

Sadly, I think that just about sums it up.

The most depressing thing is that these policies will have been decided because of focus groups and opinion polls conducted among the electorate that Labour must win back if they're going to have any chance of winning a GE.

The Brexiteers and the right wing in general, have done a great job in moving the country's political beliefs. It's horrible.

Hold on with the negativity now, he might blow you away with the inspirational rhetoric hes about to employ here.
I am almost literally moist with anticipation.

[lapsedhibee]

Hold on with the negativity now, he might blow you away with the inspirational rhetoric hes about to employ here.
I am almost literally moist with anticipation.

Even if he makes you go full wet with the rhetoric, it won't make a blind bit of difference unless he finds a way to get Murdoch etc on board. That's the only way there's another Labour government in the foreseeable.

[Jack]

Labour conference, have I got this right.

No alliance with SNP
No Freedom of moment
No single market
No customs union
No proportional representation
No keeping your promises

I've not been keeping up or haven't seen it but is there a list of YES or positive things Labour will be chasing and maybe a list of maybes?

[ronaldo7]

I've not been keeping up or haven't seen it but is there a list of YES or positive things Labour will be chasing and maybe a list of maybes?

I suppose you could pick a few things out of Rachel Reeves speech, but it's thin gruel, in comparison to their pledges in 2019.

[hibsbollah]

I've not been keeping up or haven't seen it but is there a list of YES or positive things Labour will be chasing and maybe a list of maybes?

Tough on Crime was the big one.
And Green spending.

[hibsbollah]

ooo Robert Frost reference

[Stairway 2 7]

Spent half of it attacking Labour at the last election, I think boris must have something over him under lock and key

[Northernhibee]

I hate Corbynites as much as Tory ****, if not more. I actually supported Corbyn first time around, I was delighted to hear someone appear to speak for the working classes.

Now it's a cult who would rather see Boris Johnson in power rather than anyone but magic grandad.

This is actually a really good speech from Starmer, and the "My dad was a tool maker. In a way, so was Boris Johnson's" line made me laugh out loud.

[Stairway 2 7]

I hate Corbynites as much as Tory ****, if not more. I actually supported Corbyn first time around, I was delighted to hear someone appear to speak for the working classes.

Now it's a cult who would rather see Boris Johnson in power rather than anyone but magic grandad.

This is actually a really good speech from Starmer, and the "My dad was a tool maker. In a way, so was Boris Johnson's" line made me laugh out loud.

Pretty much a clown then if you hate the left of Labour more than the tories. Like the complete pricks I've spoken to who say they are Labour supporters but voted tories to keep out snp in their constituency

[One Day Soon]

Pretty much a clown then if you hate the left of Labour more than the tories. Like the complete pricks I've spoken to who say they are Labour supporters but voted tories to keep out snp in their constituency

‘clown’, ‘pricks’. Classy.

[Hibbyradge]

Pretty much a clown then if you hate the left of Labour more than the tories. Like the complete pricks I've spoken to who say they are Labour supporters but voted tories to keep out snp in their constituency

There are many on the left who hate the centrists and the right of Labour more than the Tories.

"Might as well have the real thing" is an oft heard comment.

[hibsbollah]

I hate Corbynites as much as Tory ****, if not more. I actually supported Corbyn first time around, I was delighted to hear someone appear to speak for the working classes.

Now it's a cult who would rather see Boris Johnson in power rather than anyone but magic grandad.

This is actually a really good speech from Starmer, and the "My dad was a tool maker. In a way, so was Boris Johnson's" line made me laugh out loud.


Your first sentence is the whole ****ing problem right there. Not only are their two wings of the party, one denies the others right to exist.

[Northernhibee]

Pretty much a clown then if you hate the left of Labour more than the tories. Like the complete pricks I've spoken to who say they are Labour supporters but voted tories to keep out snp in their constituency

Why?

The most important thing - by a mile - is to get the Tories out. Letting the Corbynites have a go led to the worst defeat in decades. People absolutely HATED it.

First things first, get behind the leader and work together to get the Tories out. THEN figure out how to move the party to the left.

Letting heckers and malcontents disrupt a conference which is quite frankly vital for Labour momentum (ironic) is just going to lead to more of the Tories, more suffering, more poverty, more homeless, more jobs lost.

FFS get behind the leader. Corbyn failed disasterously. Get Labour in, THEN worry about where to go from there.

Do you think that if you had this government taking on Milliband they'd win? Of course not, the ERG and the like let Cameron win power from right of centre then worked to move them further and further right. Labour have to do that, but with a move from centre ground to the left.

[Stairway 2 7]

There are many on the left who hate the centrists and the right of Labour more than the Tories.

"Might as well have the real thing" is an oft heard comment.
Nonsense

[One Day Soon]

Your first sentence is the whole ****ing problem right there. Not only are their two wings of the party, one denies the others right to exist.

I agree, the divide is unhelpful. TBF the denying the other’s right to exist is a two way street.

[Hibbyradge]

Your first sentence is the whole ****ing problem right there. Not only are their two wings of the party, one denies the others right to exist.

Each one denies the others right to exist.

[Hibbyradge]

Nonsense

It's an absolute fact.

"Might as well have a real Tory as a red Tory" has probably been used in this forum.

[hibsbollah]

Why?

The most important thing - by a mile - is to get the Tories out. Letting the Corbynites have a go led to the worst defeat in decades. People absolutely HATED it.

First things first, get behind the leader and work together to get the Tories out. THEN figure out how to move the party to the left.

Letting heckers and malcontents disrupt a conference which is quite frankly vital for Labour momentum (ironic) is just going to lead to more of the Tories, more suffering, more poverty, more homeless, more jobs lost.

FFS get behind the leader. Corbyn failed disasterously. Get Labour in, THEN worry about where to go from there.

Do you think that if you had this government taking on Milliband they'd win? Of course not, the ERG and the like let Cameron win power from right of centre then worked to move them further and further right. Labour have to do that, but with a move from centre ground to the left.

But the reality is he’s had 18 months for the public to get to know him, and his approval ratings are worse than Corbyns, who faced two leadership challenges including after 9 months. He’s got no idealism AND no popularly.

I grudgingly admit that it’s a competent speech from a lawyer. I like mental health and crime focus, and green focus (Rebecca long baileys work, amusingly).

[Northernhibee]

But the reality is he’s had 18 months for the public to get to know him, and his approval ratings are worse than Corbyns, who faced two leadership challenges including after 9 months. He’s got no idealism AND no popularly.

I grudgingly admit that it’s a competent speech from a lawyer. I like mental health and crime focus, and green focus (Rebecca long baileys work, amusingly).


Come on. It's been a fantastic speech.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why?

The most important thing - by a mile - is to get the Tories out. Letting the Corbynites have a go led to the worst defeat in decades. People absolutely HATED it.

First things first, get behind the leader and work together to get the Tories out. THEN figure out how to move the party to the left.

Letting heckers and malcontents disrupt a conference which is quite frankly vital for Labour momentum (ironic) is just going to lead to more of the Tories, more suffering, more poverty, more homeless, more jobs lost.

FFS get behind the leader. Corbyn failed disasterously. Get Labour in, THEN worry about where to go from there.

Do you think that if you had this government taking on Milliband they'd win? Of course not, the ERG and the like let Cameron win power from right of centre then worked to move them further and further right. Labour have to do that, but with a move from centre ground to the left.

Your acting like it's the left doing the attacking. Starmer is having a purge of the left that even Blair wouldn't have. He's 7 points behind mid term against the worst tory leadership in decades. He has the murderous covid debacle, brexit and food shortages, but who does he attack the left of the party. There's more chance of hearts winning the league Cup than Labour the next election. Hopefully independence gets us shot of these two pair of clown shoes leading down south

[Stairway 2 7]

It's an absolute fact.

"Might as well have a real Tory as a red Tory" has probably been used in this forum.

Probably, probably not

[Hibbyradge]

But the reality is he’s had 18 months for the public to get to know him, and his approval ratings are worse than Corbyns, who faced two leadership challenges including after 9 months. He’s got no idealism AND no popularly.

I grudgingly admit that it’s a competent speech from a lawyer. I like mental health and crime focus, and green focus (Rebecca long baileys work, amusingly).

I understand your point, but the view was that attacking the government during Covid would not have been popular and, let's face it, Labour had as little idea about how to deal with a pandemic as everyone else.

It has hampered Starmer although I agree, he's been far from inspirational.

[One Day Soon]

Come on. It's been a fantastic speech.

It has.

[Hibbyradge]

Probably, probably not

Denial is always a good place to go when the argument is lost.

[Hiber-nation]

Getting stuck into the SNP now.

The chance was there, if a very forlorn one, to say he'd engage with the SNP on the Independence debate. Sorry, getting a bit carried away there.

[Stairway 2 7]

I understand your point, but the view was that attacking the government during Covid would not have been popular and, let's face it, Labour had as little idea about how to deal with a pandemic as everyone else.

It has hampered Starmer although I agree, he's been far from inspirational.

That's a fudge. No party in the world had an idea but almost all of them did better than us. 150,000 deaths, ppe deals to friends with no experience, boris saying he'd been shaking hands in a Covid ward then getting covid. Come of it ,everyone was desperate for an opposition leader to say something anything even now

[Stairway 2 7]

Denial is always a good place to go when the argument is lost.

I'm not a labour voter, but to say the left of labour would prefer the tories than Starmer is simply a lie

[Northernhibee]

Starmer there celebrating the successes of the last time the last time they were in government - minimum wage, more nurses, lower crime, better education.

That - precisely that - is why you focus on getting Labour into power then shaping where it goes, not heckling at a convenience or showing blind loyalty in a completely failed ex leader.

The Tories do it every time then shift to the right, Labour must do it and shift to the left.

[ronaldo7]

Come on. It's been a fantastic speech.

Plenty red cards saying different. He's been a bit Mr magnolia for me.

Labour is the party of the union he says, chasing the tory vote.

Good luck with that.

[hibsbollah]

Come on. It's been a fantastic speech.

I think you’re getting a bit carried away.

[Hibbyradge]

That's a fudge. No party in the world had an idea but almost all of them did better than us. 150,000 deaths, ppe deals to friends with no experience, boris saying he'd been shaking hands in a Covid ward then getting covid. Come of it ,everyone was desperate for an opposition leader to say something anything even now

The Tory handling of the pandemic was very poor, but their response to criticism was simply, what would you do instead?

The focus would have then been on Labour, not on the government policies which were being portrayed as"world class" etc etc.

Labour had little to gain from all out attack at a government which was at war with a novel disease. Covid allowed them to do virtually anything they wanted because they were trying to save lifes and save the NHS in unprecedented times.

[Stairway 2 7]

Long bland speech filled with lots of buzzwords but not much actual policy.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not a labour voter, but to say the left of labour would prefer the tories than Starmer is simply a lie

I said that there are those on the left, not all the left.

[Northernhibee]

I think you’re getting a bit carried away.


Attacked Boris Johnson without getting particularly personal. Stripped him down to his flaws for all to see.

Was consistent in values and where Labour want to go.

Made himself look relatable.

Even dealt with the hecklers well and I feel that will get some on side with him.

Most importantly, sounded highly professional and statesmanlike after months of hearing the absolute bunch of clowns in the benches opposite.

That's precisely what he needed to do.

[hibsbollah]

Attacked Boris Johnson without getting particularly personal. Stripped him down to his flaws for all to see.

Was consistent in values and where Labour want to go.

Made himself look relatable.

Even dealt with the hecklers well and I feel that will get some on side with him.

Most importantly, sounded highly professional and statesmanlike after months of hearing the absolute bunch of clowns in the benches opposite.

That's precisely what he needed to do.

Yep, it was competent. Exactly what I was the first one on here to say. I thought I would be criticised by the SNP voters on here for making that concession, not for not being effusive enough :greengrin

To be fair I have popped out for the second half of it to get my hair cut, so he may have channeled his inner Elizabeth I at Tilbury Docks while I was out…

[Stairway 2 7]

The Tory handling of the pandemic was very poor, but their response to criticism was simply, what would you do instead?

The focus would have then been on Labour, not on the government policies which were being portrayed as"world class" etc etc.

Labour had little to gain from all out attack at a government which was at war with a novel disease. Covid allowed them to do virtually anything they wanted because they were trying to save lifes and save the NHS in unprecedented times.
You would answer we would do what about every other nation in the world did as we were in the top 10 worst. It wasn't poor it was ******g murder. Trump did better than us in deaths for **** sake. Lock down quicker harder, eat out help out, open up for a traditional Christmas, dodgie ppe deals ect ect.

[Northernhibee]

Yep, it was competent. Exactly what I was the first one on here to say. I thought I would be criticised by the SNP voters on here for making that concession, not for not being effusive enough :greengrin

I don't know what he's supposed to do re: that. "Aye, Nic's doing a fantastic job up there, you should defo vote for her. I hope she sends me a signed photograph". Think he struck the tone of that just about right, even if I don't fully agree with it.

Today felt like the complete antithesis of what you'd expect from a Johnson conference speech. That's what was required and he got that absolutely bang on.

[Jack]

Why?

The most important thing - by a mile - is to get the Tories out. Letting the Corbynites have a go led to the worst defeat in decades. People absolutely HATED it.

First things first, get behind the leader and work together to get the Tories out. THEN figure out how to move the party to the left.

Letting heckers and malcontents disrupt a conference which is quite frankly vital for Labour momentum (ironic) is just going to lead to more of the Tories, more suffering, more poverty, more homeless, more jobs lost.

FFS get behind the leader. Corbyn failed disasterously. Get Labour in, THEN worry about where to go from there.

Do you think that if you had this government taking on Milliband they'd win? Of course not, the ERG and the like let Cameron win power from right of centre then worked to move them further and further right. Labour have to do that, but with a move from centre ground to the left.

Of course Scotland could leave all the bitching and torys to get on with it and go it's own way.

[Northernhibee]

Of course Scotland could leave all the bitching and torys to get on with it and go it's own way.

I still think that if we can get independence but be dealing with a Labour government to trash out the terms of how we trade with our neighbours it would be for the best. The Tories have shown that they don't care if they hurt their own people or those around them in these sort of things. I have quite a few friends down in England and wouldn't want to leave them with a Tory party free to get even worse if we can help it.

[hibsbollah]

I don't know what he's supposed to do re: that. "Aye, Nic's doing a fantastic job up there, you should defo vote for her. I hope she sends me a signed photograph". Think he struck the tone of that just about right, even if I don't fully agree with it.

Today felt like the complete antithesis of what you'd expect from a Johnson conference speech. That's what was required and he got that absolutely bang on.

Both he and Nandy this morning hung Scottish Labour out to dry a bit by explicitly mentioning how good Mark Drakeford has done in Wales, and then avoiding saying much about up here. Part of Drakefords appeal is consciously not picking constitutional fights with the nationalists and directing his ire on the Tories. Starmer misses this distinction I think.

[Ozyhibby]

As a supporter of independence it was heartening to hear him say nothing in defence of the union apart from a couple of tired old ‘Better together’ lines.
As a speech, it wasn’t terrible but not something you would get excited about either.


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[Hibbyradge]

You would answer we would do what about every other nation in the world did as we were in the top 10 worst. It wasn't poor it was ******g murder. Trump did better than us in deaths for **** sake. Lock down quicker harder, eat out help out, open up for a traditional Christmas, dodgie ppe deals ect ect.

I don't disagree with you.

The point is, that Labour had nowhere to go with it all because of the unprecedented nature of the crisis.

Plus, comparing the UK to other countries wasn't going to go down well. They were hamstrung.

[One Day Soon]

Of course Scotland could leave all the bitching and torys to get on with it and go it's own way.

‘Could’ doing quite a bit of work there.

[ronaldo7]

As someone who's given blood in the past, I never knew I had the choice to say where it went.

Was that line just a load of bollocks.

Blood and blood unionism. 💉

[Pretty Boy]

A well presented speech that didn't say a lot.

It will be a long time before Labour get back into power if this is the extent of their efforts. It's all very well chasing the centre ground if it is there to be won. It isn't though and Starmer appears to be doing a fantastic job at turning both the lefties and the people once cried as 'Mondeo men' off.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Sadly, I think that just about sums it up.

The most depressing thing is that these policies will have been decided because of focus groups and opinion polls conducted among the electorate that Labour must win back if they're going to have any chance of winning a GE.

The Brexiteers and the right wing in general, have done a great job in moving the country's political beliefs. It's horrible.

The countries political beliefs have been changing since Thatcher sold the council house stock.

[ronaldo7]

Gordon Brown to lead a commission to settle the issue of the union.

Give us a V..

[JeMeSouviens]

Gordon Brown to lead a commission to settle the issue of the union.

Give us a V..

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.757346099.7756/poster,504x498,f8f8f8-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.u1.jpg

[ronaldo7]

Career politicians would never vote for that unfortunately.

An aside I just read Ken loach one of our greatest directors, was expelled from the Labour Party in their socialist purge. What a shame a genius and an important voice worth listening to, worth 1000 starters, murrays or mandelsons

His thoughts on Starmer a few days ago. It's a bit close to the bone for some. :wink:

https://twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1442926725873029121

[Hiber-nation]

Gordon Brown to lead a commission to settle the issue of the union.

Give us a V..

Another Labour-related thing that now makes me laugh rather then rage. How can they live in such a bubble?

[Ozyhibby]

Gordon Brown to lead a commission to settle the issue of the union.

Give us a V..

I’m willing to bet big that his solution is to stay in the union but with loads of things that they can’t deliver to make people think they have a new idea.


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[ronaldo7]

Another Labour-related thing that now makes me laugh rather then rage. How can they live in such a bubble?

They think setting up a commission with the Vow entrails showing, it'll somehow put the thing to bed, and we'll be done with it.

Settle it indeed. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

I was surprised to see an assessment in The Guardian I agreed with, but Steve Richards said it best "It is one of the myths of British politics that a leader “taking on” a section of their party reaps electoral dividends. Labour leaders feel under considerable pressure to do so in a way that no Conservative leader does. Neil Kinnock’ s famous speech in 1985 when he challenged Militant tendency (https://www.theguardian.com/news/1985/oct/02/leadersandreply.mainsection) was an act of stunning political courage, but obscured a potent argument in the same address about the benevolent potential of the state, his counter to Thatcherism. The argument remained hidden. Labour was slaughtered in the election that followed. Unity or election victory is a false juxtaposition. An impression of unity is a precondition of election victory."

[Jack]

They think setting up a commission with the Vow entrails showing, it'll somehow put the thing to bed, and we'll be done with it.

Settle it indeed. :rolleyes:

Just like the last time Brown Labour will come up with a vow a few Scots (led by the BBC) will be taken in by and the torys will again ignore it and rejoice having done nothing to upset their base. Not only will drive Scots unionists away from Labour it alienates the other half of the electorate to wonder why it ever voted Labour. Brown sets up a win/win for the torys. Again.

[He's here!]

Starmer impressed me today. Best I've seen him perform. He seemed well prepared for the barrage of hecklers, delivering some effective put-downs. Of course some of the more moronic hecklers did themselves no favours (and indeed worked in Starmer's favour) by shouting at the most inappropriate moments, in particular while he was talking about his mother being in intensive care. Classy stuff.

Mental health pledge was probably the most eye-catching, although as ever the lack of explanation as to how such sweeping improvements will be made possible makes it hard to get too excited yet.

Overall, I'd say we were left in no doubt he wants to present himself as a Labour leader cut from the Blair/Brown cloth. And why not? I also thought it was interesting to hear him call for applause for the armed forces and to state that 'we here in this conference hall are all patriots.' A nod towards the former red wall voters?

[heretoday]

The Labour Party is too broad a church and too prone to infighting. Tories are better at glossing over their internal disagreements. And of course they have most of the media on their side.
Starmer is remarkably resilient through it all.

[ronaldo7]

Starmer impressed me today. Best I've seen him perform. He seemed well prepared for the barrage of hecklers, delivering some effective put-downs. Of course some of the more moronic hecklers did themselves no favours (and indeed worked in Starmer's favour) by shouting at the most inappropriate moments, in particular while he was talking about his mother being in intensive care. Classy stuff.

Mental health pledge was probably the most eye-catching, although as ever the lack of explanation as to how such sweeping improvements will be made possible makes it hard to get too excited yet.

Overall, I'd say we were left in no doubt he wants to present himself as a Labour leader cut from the Blair/Brown cloth. And why not? I also thought it was interesting to hear him call for applause for the armed forces and to state that 'we here in this conference hall are all patriots.' A nod towards the former red wall voters?

Not sure if she's one of the "Moronic hecklers", but she seems just as passionate as anyone at conference. Is free speech allowed in the BLP these days?

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1443236423751057415

[greenlex]

‘Could’ doing quite a bit of work there.
I’d replace it with should.

[Ozyhibby]

Strong polling for Starmer’s speech on Sky news.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but, I heard John curtice say that Labour would need a 12% lead over the tories to get even a majority of 1 MP.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but, I heard John curtice say that Labour would need a 12% lead over the tories to get even a majority of 1 MP.

Probably about right without Scotland. They can’t win without Scotland but they won’t win Scotland unless they can show the can win in England.


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[He's here!]

I still think that if we can get independence but be dealing with a Labour government to trash out the terms of how we trade with our neighbours it would be for the best. The Tories have shown that they don't care if they hurt their own people or those around them in these sort of things. I have quite a few friends down in England and wouldn't want to leave them with a Tory party free to get even worse if we can help it.

Hard to imagine Labour would be doing any deals with the SNP, even if we were to end up with a hung parliament. Conceding to a demand for a referendum would be the same as accepting Labour cannot recover in Scotland. Also, if Labour are serious about standing up for the integrity of the United Kingdom then they couldn't seriously campaign on a ticket which concedes the UK's break-up. Given that the only deal with the SNP that Labour could possibly make would be dependent on agreeing to a referendum, the whole idea is a non-starter.

I suspect Starmer knows all this and it's fuelling his drive to return Labour to the Blair/Brown model ie a party that can win, and one that with its centrist stance (with a Labour flavour) carried wide appeal across the UK (including Scotland). The last time Labour gained even a frisson of momentum (in the 2017 election campaign) they won six seats in Scotland so reports of their death north of the border remain, I think, premature. If Starmer can co-ordinate effectively with the likeable Sarwar then there's mileage in his strategy.

I heard the journalist Alex Massie on Radio 4 earlier saying that in the event that Labour do find themselves in such a situation (a hung parliament where the Tories are the largest party but where Labour could conceivably cobble together a coalition) they should, instead of trying to deal with the SNP, simply offer them nothing (in the style of the Godfather's Michael Corleone) ie force them into choosing between supporting a Labour government or keeping the Tories in power. This would, if nothing else, put to the test the perception that the SNP actually prefer having a Tory government in power than a Labour one as it makes their job of sniping from the sidelines easier.

[Hibrandenburg]

Starmer's speech was decent, but any victorious Labour government is only a prelude to the next tory government.

[Ozyhibby]

Hard to imagine Labour would be doing any deals with the SNP, even if we were to end up with a hung parliament. Conceding to a demand for a referendum would be the same as accepting Labour cannot recover in Scotland. Also, if Labour are serious about standing up for the integrity of the United Kingdom then they couldn't seriously campaign on a ticket which concedes the UK's break-up. Given that the only deal with the SNP that Labour could possibly make would be dependent on agreeing to a referendum, the whole idea is a non-starter.

I suspect Starmer knows all this and it's fuelling his drive to return Labour to the Blair/Brown model ie a party that can win, and one that with its centrist stance (with a Labour flavour) carried wide appeal across the UK (including Scotland). The last time Labour gained even a frisson of momentum (in the 2017 election campaign) they won six seats in Scotland so reports of their death north of the border remain, I think, premature. If Starmer can co-ordinate effectively with the likeable Sarwar then there's mileage in his strategy.

I heard the journalist Alex Massie on Radio 4 earlier saying that in the event that Labour do find themselves in such a situation (a hung parliament where the Tories are the largest party but where Labour could conceivably cobble together a coalition) they should, instead of trying to deal with the SNP, simply offer them nothing (in the style of the Godfather's Michael Corleone) ie force them into choosing between supporting a Labour government or keeping the Tories in power. This would, if nothing else, put to the test the perception that the SNP actually prefer having a Tory government in power than a Labour one as it makes their job of sniping from the sidelines easier.

The last paragraph is a terrible idea. Even SNP opponents would expect them to laugh at that offer. And how would Labour look in England? Happy for the Tories to stay in power rather than do a deal with the SNP? The whole idea is laughable and would never happen.


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[The Tubs]

Hard to imagine Labour would be doing any deals with the SNP, even if we were to end up with a hung parliament. Conceding to a demand for a referendum would be the same as accepting Labour cannot recover in Scotland. Also, if Labour are serious about standing up for the integrity of the United Kingdom then they couldn't seriously campaign on a ticket which concedes the UK's break-up. Given that the only deal with the SNP that Labour could possibly make would be dependent on agreeing to a referendum, the whole idea is a non-starter.

I suspect Starmer knows all this and it's fuelling his drive to return Labour to the Blair/Brown model ie a party that can win, and one that with its centrist stance (with a Labour flavour) carried wide appeal across the UK (including Scotland). The last time Labour gained even a frisson of momentum (in the 2017 election campaign) they won six seats in Scotland so reports of their death north of the border remain, I think, premature. If Starmer can co-ordinate effectively with the likeable Sarwar then there's mileage in his strategy.

I heard the journalist Alex Massie on Radio 4 earlier saying that in the event that Labour do find themselves in such a situation (a hung parliament where the Tories are the largest party but where Labour could conceivably cobble together a coalition) they should, instead of trying to deal with the SNP, simply offer them nothing (in the style of the Godfather's Michael Corleone) ie force them into choosing between supporting a Labour government or keeping the Tories in power. This would, if nothing else, put to the test the perception that the SNP actually prefer having a Tory government in power than a Labour one as it makes their job of sniping from the sidelines easier.

Opinion polls seem to show that the dissolution of the union is becoming more palatable in England. Probably much more so than when they chose “strong and stable” over Milliband.

[Skol]

I agree that a labour deal with snp is not likely to happen.


The former labour voters who vote snp have fallen out with labour so much they are unlikely to return. And in fact they wouldn’t need to if there was a deal.

The voters who remain with labour are mostly against independence and will be forced to look elsewhere.

Overal the Scottish labour vote will get even worse

Then assuming the deal is a referendum and assuming Scotland become independent the loss of the snp mps puts labour in a minority and unlikely to win unless they have performed so well they have regained the English votes.

[degenerated]

Gordon Brown to lead a commission to settle the issue of the union.

Give us a V..Oh great, more promises of as near to federalism that he claimed has already been delivered. 25145

[Bostonhibby]

Oh great, more promises of as near to federalism that he claimed has already been delivered. 25145Feels like asking a turkey to form a working party to explore the benefits of large scale turkey farming.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Probably about right without Scotland. They can’t win without Scotland but they won’t win Scotland unless they can show the can win in England.


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Yep, I'm sure that was the context.

[Hibbyradge]

I think a Labour deal with the SNP is a certainty in a hung parliament situation.

[Ozyhibby]

I think a Labour deal with the SNP is a certainty in a hung parliament situation.

I can’t see any way that it doesn’t happen. The pressure on Labour not to turn their back on govt would be huge.
And I think the SNP would be in a stronger position in negotiations.


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[Santa Cruz]

I think a Labour deal with the SNP is a certainty in a hung parliament situation.

Yeah I agree. I also think they will devolve more powers regionally in England and to the Devolved Nations. They will agree to a referendum but will want a Devo Max option on the ballot paper. I can't see how the SG can object given they maintain the people of Scotland should be allowed to decide our own future, if this is the case we should then be allowed all options.

[degenerated]

Yeah I agree. I also think they will devolve more powers regionally in England and to the Devolved Nations. They will agree to a referendum but will want a Devo Max option on the ballot paper. I can't see how the SG can object given they maintain the people of Scotland should be allowed to decide our own future, if this is the case we should then be allowed all options.This was suggested before 2014 and vetoed by labour and tories, why should the Scottish parties be expected to accept just because it now it suits the unionists?

In my opinion it should be the same question and the same franchise.

[Santa Cruz]

This was suggested before 2014 and vetoed by labour and tories, why should the Scottish parties be expected to accept just because it now it suits the unionists?

In my opinion it should be the same question and the same franchise.

New Leadership may be open to different options. Why have the same question, if there is a level of confidence that Yes would win, there's nothing to lose by having another option on the ballot paper. Giving voters all options is more democratic imo.

[Kato]

New Leadership may be open to different options. Why have the same question, if there is a level of confidence that Yes would win, there's nothing to lose by having another option on the ballot paper. Giving voters all options is more democratic imo.Or it's just another plan to save the union by splitting the vote of those disaffected with it. After " The Vow" why wouldn't anyone believe promises of federalism? The Tories would just centralise everything again anyway.

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[Santa Cruz]

Or it's just another plan to save the union by splitting the vote of those disaffected with it. After " The Vow" why wouldn't anyone believe promises of federalism? The Tories would just centralise everything again anyway.

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Like I say, if there's a strong case for a YES vote, there really should be nothing to fear from giving voters all options.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Or it's just another plan to save the union by splitting the vote of those disaffected with it. After " The Vow" why wouldn't anyone believe promises of federalism? The Tories would just centralise everything again anyway.

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of course it is and only a unionist will attempt to have as many different options on the ballot paper, the more options the more dilution, yes or no it's really quite simple :agree:

[Jack]

Like I say, if there's a strong case for a YES vote, there really should be nothing to fear from giving voters all options.

If there was any desire for federalism from the unionist parties why has absolutely nothing been done about it since the last referendum?

[JeMeSouviens]

Like I say, if there's a strong case for a YES vote, there really should be nothing to fear from giving voters all options.

All achievable options, fair enough.

Gordon Brown's mythical federal Kingdom of Unicornia, not so much.

Personally, I think Labour are just hoping to cynically play for time and pray the indy tide goes out.

[Kato]

Like I say, if there's a strong case for a YES vote, there really should be nothing to fear from giving voters all options.So two options which are definates and one (or more) which are nebulous promises with no guarantee of being implemented.

Sounds like a "vow". If the promise were to win (or if no were to win) that doesn't decide the question once and for all, which is something I thought Unionists were staunchly in favour of. The promises and platforms which No stood on the last time have evaporated which is why the question is being asked again.

Why open the door for a smudgy, smeared outcome when a concrete decision could be taken? The promises of federalism etc should just be bolted onto the No standpoint. If they are confident of winning there should be no problem.

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[JeMeSouviens]

Hard to imagine Labour would be doing any deals with the SNP, even if we were to end up with a hung parliament. Conceding to a demand for a referendum would be the same as accepting Labour cannot recover in Scotland. Also, if Labour are serious about standing up for the integrity of the United Kingdom then they couldn't seriously campaign on a ticket which concedes the UK's break-up. Given that the only deal with the SNP that Labour could possibly make would be dependent on agreeing to a referendum, the whole idea is a non-starter.

I suspect Starmer knows all this and it's fuelling his drive to return Labour to the Blair/Brown model ie a party that can win, and one that with its centrist stance (with a Labour flavour) carried wide appeal across the UK (including Scotland). The last time Labour gained even a frisson of momentum (in the 2017 election campaign) they won six seats in Scotland so reports of their death north of the border remain, I think, premature. If Starmer can co-ordinate effectively with the likeable Sarwar then there's mileage in his strategy.

I heard the journalist Alex Massie on Radio 4 earlier saying that in the event that Labour do find themselves in such a situation (a hung parliament where the Tories are the largest party but where Labour could conceivably cobble together a coalition) they should, instead of trying to deal with the SNP, simply offer them nothing (in the style of the Godfather's Michael Corleone) ie force them into choosing between supporting a Labour government or keeping the Tories in power. This would, if nothing else, put to the test the perception that the SNP actually prefer having a Tory government in power than a Labour one as it makes their job of sniping from the sidelines easier.

His Corleone option sounds like good politics, but it's pretty easily countered. The SNP support Labour on confidence+supply but nothing else. Just abstain and leave a zombie Lab government in office but not in power.

[Santa Cruz]

If there was any desire for federalism from the unionist parties why has absolutely nothing been done about it since the last referendum?

Labour hasn't been in Gov anywhere in the UK since the last referendum, that's why I'm raising the possibility on this thread in advance of the next GE. They could make it a manifesto pledge.

[Santa Cruz]

So two options which are definates and one (or more) which are nebulous promises with no guarantee of being implemented.

Sounds like a "vow". If the promise were to win (or if no were to win) that doesn't decide the question once and for all, which is something I thought Unionists were staunchly in favour of. The promises and platforms which No stood on the last time have evaporated which is why the question is being asked again.

Why open the door for a smudgy, smeared outcome when a concrete decision could be taken? The promises of federalism etc should just be bolted onto the No standpoint. If they are confident of winning there should be no problem.

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Because voters should have all options, if it was an option it would need to be implemented. No vote for me means retain the status quo, add another option and you give voters who are uncertain a middle ground option. I'm all for more Devolved powers, needs to be handed to a Gov that can manage them though.

[weecounty hibby]

Devo max will never be delivered even if promised like 2014. England/Westminster don't want it and we all know what happens if England/Westminster make a decision. Scotland just has to suck it up and accept it. See Brexit as an example!
Also if 3 questions on the paper does that mean that 33.4% is the winning target? Or will we see some sort of gerrymandering regards the indy/devo vote?

[Kato]

Labour hasn't been in Gov anywhere in the UK since the last referendum, that's why I'm raising the possibility on this thread in advance of the next GE. They could make it a manifesto pledge.They need to make policies which persuade the English electorate. Unless they invent the appetite for it in England and find a way which will persuade the English voters that it is required then it won't be on their manifesto. Labour like a centralised govt these days too, whatever fudge they think would work in Scotland would go against what they want in England.

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[degenerated]

Like I say, if there's a strong case for a YES vote, there really should be nothing to fear from giving voters all options.It's nothing to do with that, it's unionists trying to split the vote.
The only thing that should be on the ballot paper is those things that can be guaranteed deliverables and chosen for and implemented by Scotland. Things like federalism and more regional devolution require the English to make that decision for us.

[Moulin Yarns]

Switzerland offer multiple choice referenda, which usually requires a 50%+1 majority to apply, in the case of no majority it is possible to have a transferable vote so that second choice votes from the lowest vote are then counted.

I imagine that would result in the middle option winning.

I doubt it would work with an independence referendum because, as the unionists keep saying that they want to know all the details of what they are voting for and while that's possible for the yes side, and the no side will say you already know what you get, there will be nobody actually wanting the third option.

[One Day Soon]

Isn't there a Scottish Independence thread this would more appropriately feature on?

[Santa Cruz]

Isn't there a Scottish Independence thread this would more appropriately feature on?

Yeah. Apologies. Point taken.

[JeMeSouviens]

Devo max will never be delivered even if promised like 2014. England/Westminster don't want it and we all know what happens if England/Westminster make a decision. Scotland just has to suck it up and accept it. See Brexit as an example!
Also if 3 questions on the paper does that mean that 33.4% is the winning target? Or will we see some sort of gerrymandering regards the indy/devo vote?

An achievable devo max option could be agreed and put on a ballot. Give Scotland control over everything but have joint defence, foreign affairs, a shared currency zone and a jointly regulated UK single market. It would need to be agreed in advance though (and most likely nobody in rUK would sign up to it).

Pre-Brexit it might even have been an attractive half way house but, looking at it now, why would you get on board with a declining market of 60M run by loonies when there's a growing market of 500M all around you?

[JeMeSouviens]

Isn't there a Scottish Independence thread this would more appropriately feature on?

Sooner or later, every HG thread is an indy one. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Sooner or later, every HG thread is an indy one. :wink:

No, you just think they are. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Isn't there a Scottish Independence thread this would more appropriately feature on?

Didn't Starmer mention independence in his speech to the Labour faithful?

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't Starmer mention independence in his speech to the Labour faithful?

Sarwar certainly mentioned it yesterday when making it clear that Scottish Labour is fully independent from London and when it comes to Scotland, he’s the boss. Independence is obviously a good thing when it comes to his party but not the rest of us.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Sarwar certainly mentioned it yesterday when making it clear that Scottish Labour is fully independent from London and when it comes to Scotland, he’s the boss. Independence is obviously a good thing when it comes to his party but not the rest of us.


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Apologies for the link

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-takes-nicola-sturgeon-25099151.amp

"Labour is party of the Union"

[ronaldo7]

Labour hasn't been in Gov anywhere in the UK since the last referendum, that's why I'm raising the possibility on this thread in advance of the next GE. They could make it a manifesto pledge.

Wales.

[He's here!]

Labour hasn't been in Gov anywhere in the UK since the last referendum, that's why I'm raising the possibility on this thread in advance of the next GE. They could make it a manifesto pledge.

The Welsh Government is a Labour one.

[Santa Cruz]

The Welsh Government is a Labour one.

Yeah apologies, I know this. I was meaning Scotland and WM as the discussion was in relation mainly to devo max being on the ballot paper. I should have been clearer. I won't derail the thread further on the subject. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Given the opportunity by the FM for Anas Sarwar, the new leader of Blis to fight for more powers for the Scottish Parliament, he fell silent.

Are we to believe he would suddenly find his voice if a third option was on the ballot in an independence referendum?

I think not. The Smith commission showed them up for what they now espouse... The party of the union.

[Ozyhibby]

Given the opportunity by the FM for Anas Sarwar, the new leader of Blis to fight for more powers for the Scottish Parliament, he fell silent.

Are we to believe he would suddenly find his voice if a third option was on the ballot in an independence referendum?

I think not. The Smith commission showed them up for what they now espouse... The party of the union.

Yip, he was up to his usual tricks of asking the SG to mitigate the harms caused by Westminster’s withdrawal of £1000 a year from universal credit without backing giving the SG the power and finances to do so.
The reason Scottish Labour won’t recover is people can see right through stunts like that.


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[Jack]

Yip, he was up to his usual tricks of asking the SG to mitigate the harms caused by Westminster’s withdrawal of £1000 a year from universal credit without backing giving the SG the power and finances to do so.
The reason Scottish Labour won’t recover is people can see right through stunts like that.


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Well apart from the Labour unionists who think he's doing a fine job and performing well at FMQs. There's none so blind that will not see.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1444788190586494979?s=19

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[hibsbollah]

Starmer has been absolutely brutalised in The Sun today, mocking his ‘Special K’ self nickname and ketamine connections, and saying his speech ‘sends the nation to sleep.’

This is despite allowing The Sun a sponsored stand at conference for the first time (?) last week and doing a number of editorials in the paper in the last few weeks. Mandelsons role as an advisor has never been more apparent, i don’t understand why they never learn. It’s all a bit ‘suck up the bullying ******* at school in the hope they’ll stop’. Pathetic. And still 8 points behind in the polls.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1452578021148434433

Wrong thread...Don't think so. :rolleyes:

I remember when they used to become Independents. These days they just join their pals.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1452578021148434433

Wrong thread...Don't think so. :rolleyes:

I remember when they used to become Independents. These days they just join their pals.

Will be one party soon enough.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1452578021148434433

Wrong thread...Don't think so. :rolleyes:

I remember when they used to become Independents. These days they just join their pals.

"The real alternative for working people"

:jamboak:

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1452578021148434433

Wrong thread...Don't think so. :rolleyes:

I remember when they used to become Independents. These days they just join their pals.

Broxburn Uphall and Winchburgh is a very peculiar constituency, i unfortunately know it well. 70% of the population seem to be Rangers fans . This double barreled councilor is also married to a Tory councilor now so there’s definitely a going down to the crossroads to sell your soul thing going on.

[DaveF]

I did like this comment "BREAKING: Unionist leaves unionists to join the Conservative and Unionists"

[ronaldo7]

Broxburn Uphall and Winchburgh is a very peculiar constituency, i unfortunately know it well. 70% of the population seem to be Rangers fans . This double barreled councilor is also married to a Tory councilor now so there’s definitely a going down to the crossroads to sell your soul thing going on.

Aye. Despite the SNP winning most seats in West Lothian, the Tories are propping up labour(unofficially of course) in all major votes in the area. The defection makes no difference.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74997a7a-366a-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=05a6312b784d55e7fdbcc3903e 7bce22


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[DaveF]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74997a7a-366a-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=05a6312b784d55e7fdbcc3903e 7bce22


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Acting like wee frees with a rosette 😂

[hibsbollah]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74997a7a-366a-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=05a6312b784d55e7fdbcc3903e 7bce22


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It’s not the point of the article, but the opening few paragraphs are absurdly kind on Starmer, who just appears to get a free ride from the broadsheet mainstream media no matter how bad his polling is. He has become the useful idiot.

[Just Alf]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74997a7a-366a-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=05a6312b784d55e7fdbcc3903e 7bce22


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat was an interesting read, highlights really well how the 'SNP bad' doctrine is driving Scottish Labour's poor poll performance (probably also true for the Lib Dems and even the Tories to an extent)

[lord bunberry]

Ed Milliband enjoyed was enjoying himself there. He was considered quite dull when he was leader, but he was Mr charisma compared to Starmer.

[hibsbollah]

Rayner apologises for the ‘Tory ****’ thing.

I have been off work over the last couple of weeks after losing a close loved one. Grief is the burden we bear for love and losing someone close is something that we all experience at some point in our lives, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any easier when it happens to you. So I can’t imagine what the family of Sir David Amess are going through, but I know they will be hurting. I send my heartfelt condolences to them. Sir David was a fine parliamentarian, a proud advocate for his constituents and above all such a kind, generous and warm-hearted man. He will be missed on all sides of the House.

As a society we need to offer better support to people who are going through bereavement, loss and other traumatic or difficult experiences in their personal lives. I hope that the fact that I took time to deal with a bereavement will encourage other people to do the same when they are going through grief or trauma.

While I have been away from the cut and thrust of Parliament I have reflected on our political debate and the threats and abuse that now seem to feature all too often.

I have also reflected on what I said at an event at Labour Party conference. I was angry about where our country is headed and policies that have made life harder for so many people I represent. But I would like to unreservedly apologise for the language I used, and I would not use it again.

I will continue to speak my mind, stand up for Labour values and hold the government to account. But in the future I will be more careful about how I do that and in the language that I choose.

All of us in positions of leadership have a responsibility for our language and rhetoric, whether towards political opponents or anyone else in society, especially those already most vulnerable. As Deputy Leader of the Labour Party I take this responsibility with the utmost seriousness and I am sure that politicians from all parties, the media and others with a prominent role in our public life will also reflect on this shared responsibility.

I want to address the threats I have received recently. In the past I have been reluctant to speak out about the abuse that I receive because I fear that doing so will only make the situation worse. However, in recent weeks the threats that I have received against my life and the lives of close family have been so terrifying and explicit that I could not stay silent and simply continue to take it as ‘part of the job’. They have had a devastating impact on me, my children and others close to me.

It shakes you when you get these threats. You worry about the safety of your home, your office and everything in your life. And it takes its toll on the people who work for me too.

My staff come to work and do their jobs with dedication and professionalism. They bear the brunt of much of this abuse and then get on with their working day. Dealing with death threats and liaising with the police about their safety should not be a standard part of the day-to-day working life of a Member of Parliament or their staff.

So I want to thank the police officers from Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire and Cambridgeshire Police who have arrested a number of people in recent days and demonstrated the utmost professionalism, courtesy and kindness both in carrying out their investigations and in supporting me, my family and my staff during what has been a very difficult time. I and my team will continue work with them to ensure that the perpetrators of these crimes are brought to justice.

After attending a funeral on Monday I will be back to work, rolling my sleeves up and standing up for my brilliant constituents in Ashton-under-Lyne, Droylsden and Failsworth – along with everyone who needs a Labour government.

[Ozyhibby]

Rayner apologises for the ‘Tory ****’ thing.

I have been off work over the last couple of weeks after losing a close loved one. Grief is the burden we bear for love and losing someone close is something that we all experience at some point in our lives, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any easier when it happens to you. So I can’t imagine what the family of Sir David Amess are going through, but I know they will be hurting. I send my heartfelt condolences to them. Sir David was a fine parliamentarian, a proud advocate for his constituents and above all such a kind, generous and warm-hearted man. He will be missed on all sides of the House.

As a society we need to offer better support to people who are going through bereavement, loss and other traumatic or difficult experiences in their personal lives. I hope that the fact that I took time to deal with a bereavement will encourage other people to do the same when they are going through grief or trauma.

While I have been away from the cut and thrust of Parliament I have reflected on our political debate and the threats and abuse that now seem to feature all too often.

I have also reflected on what I said at an event at Labour Party conference. I was angry about where our country is headed and policies that have made life harder for so many people I represent. But I would like to unreservedly apologise for the language I used, and I would not use it again.

I will continue to speak my mind, stand up for Labour values and hold the government to account. But in the future I will be more careful about how I do that and in the language that I choose.

All of us in positions of leadership have a responsibility for our language and rhetoric, whether towards political opponents or anyone else in society, especially those already most vulnerable. As Deputy Leader of the Labour Party I take this responsibility with the utmost seriousness and I am sure that politicians from all parties, the media and others with a prominent role in our public life will also reflect on this shared responsibility.

I want to address the threats I have received recently. In the past I have been reluctant to speak out about the abuse that I receive because I fear that doing so will only make the situation worse. However, in recent weeks the threats that I have received against my life and the lives of close family have been so terrifying and explicit that I could not stay silent and simply continue to take it as ‘part of the job’. They have had a devastating impact on me, my children and others close to me.

It shakes you when you get these threats. You worry about the safety of your home, your office and everything in your life. And it takes its toll on the people who work for me too.

My staff come to work and do their jobs with dedication and professionalism. They bear the brunt of much of this abuse and then get on with their working day. Dealing with death threats and liaising with the police about their safety should not be a standard part of the day-to-day working life of a Member of Parliament or their staff.

So I want to thank the police officers from Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire and Cambridgeshire Police who have arrested a number of people in recent days and demonstrated the utmost professionalism, courtesy and kindness both in carrying out their investigations and in supporting me, my family and my staff during what has been a very difficult time. I and my team will continue work with them to ensure that the perpetrators of these crimes are brought to justice.

After attending a funeral on Monday I will be back to work, rolling my sleeves up and standing up for my brilliant constituents in Ashton-under-Lyne, Droylsden and Failsworth – along with everyone who needs a Labour government.

So she should. It was intemperate and hurt her more than it did any Tory.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/3a11e4f4c3c7995c0b01e242fdb3df68.jpg

No end in sight yet.


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[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/3a11e4f4c3c7995c0b01e242fdb3df68.jpg

No end in sight yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why is the SNP not included here? Without the 50 odd seats they might win (9% of the total) the poll is meaningless.

[degenerated]

Why is the SNP not included here? Without the 50 odd seats they might win (9% of the total) the poll is meaningless.Them being excluded is a perfect metaphor for Westminster, who Scotland elects is largely irrelevant.

[Colr]

Them being excluded is a perfect metaphor for Westminster, who Scotland elects is largely irrelevant.

Subsequent tweet from same source shows SNP on 55 and the Tories 2 seats short of a majority.

[degenerated]

Subsequent tweet from same source shows SNP on 55 and the Tories 2 seats short of a majority.Based on current boundaries, which will be changed by next election. And on the off chance that result still stood then the lib Dems would cosy up to the Tories again.

[Hibbyradge]

Based on current boundaries, which will be changed by next election. And on the off chance that result still stood then the lib Dems would cosy up to the Tories again.

I don't think they'd dare, but I doubt we'll find out.

[Colr]

Based on current boundaries, which will be changed by next election. And on the off chance that result still stood then the lib Dems would cosy up to the Tories again.

The other point is that a working majority os probably around 317 rather than 325

[Ozyhibby]

The other point is that a working majority os probably around 317 rather than 325

Doubt much would get done with only around 320. Party discipline would collapse. Especially if it was Labour.


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[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/claudia-webbe-mp-handed-suspended-sentence-after-threatening-partners-female-friend-with-acid-12458966

Might have already been posted on another thread but it amazes me how MPs so often seem unable to see that their position is untenable and refuse to resign. Who would want this sort of person representing their constituency?

[He's here!]

https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/uk-news/954756/mps-called-out-over-stag-do-antics-on-armistice-day-flight

Seems odd she would choose drink at all if she's on this type of medication. In fact if she's suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder it seems odd she'd go on the trip at all.

[hibsbollah]

Someone’s got the best backbencher in the commons in their sights. Briefings all over the place…

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-59246434.amp

https://mobile.twitter.com/JewishNewsUK/status/1458014633399308292

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/purge-of-the-corbynites-four-labour-mps-may-face-reselection-battles/

[Stairway 2 7]

Someone’s got the best backbencher in the commons in their sights. Briefings all over the place…

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-59246434.amp

https://mobile.twitter.com/JewishNewsUK/status/1458014633399308292

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/purge-of-the-corbynites-four-labour-mps-may-face-reselection-battles/

Starmers purge continues, any left wingers days are numbered

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/11/is-the-snp-facing-a-winter-of-discontent

Scottish Labour’s plan starting to reveal itself.


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[Jack]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/11/is-the-snp-facing-a-winter-of-discontent

Scottish Labour’s plan starting to reveal itself.


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It would be useful if you could copy and paste at least part of the article, particularly if it's behind a paywall, so that we can get the gist of what it's about.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/11/is-the-snp-facing-a-winter-of-discontent

Scottish Labour’s plan starting to reveal itself.


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I can't read this article in full.

It's been explained on another thread Trade Unions represent workers who vote for all the different political parties, not just Labour. The Union's represent workers and campaign for better pay and conditions, again this benefits people who vote for all parties, even workers who are not Union members. When joining a Union you have the right to opt out of contributions towards the Labour Party fund, this is made very clear to all new recruits. That is the only time I personally ever heard the words Labour Party. Politics and workers rights are entirely separate, that is unless you want to pay double bubble and join the SNP Trade Union Group. The SNP union is affiliated to the main Unions in Scotland, they want workers to pay a fee to spread the word about Independence, this is an example of mixing politics with workers rights, it offers nothing of note to any undervalued sector.

The EIS is a Scottish Union with the largest membership in Scotland. I would happily bet that a large percentage of members do not vote for Labour. They are consulting (not officially) their members just now on Industrial Action, as are the SQA. Nothing to do with the Labour Party.

[hibsbollah]

It would be useful if you could copy and paste at least part of the article, particularly if it's behind a paywall, so that we can get the gist of what it's about.

It’s not behind a paywall, maybe I registered :dunno:

Basically, SNP could be embarrassed by increased strikes and not having enough money to fund public sector (although confusingly the article also makes the opposite claim, that SG haven’t moved quickly enough on public sector ‘reform’ :dunno: And Labour could reap an electoral benefit from that, taking away their claim to be the post Labour people’s party etc…

[Crunchie]

https://news.sky.com/story/claudia-webbe-mp-handed-suspended-sentence-after-threatening-partners-female-friend-with-acid-12458966

Might have already been posted on another thread but it amazes me how MPs so often seem unable to see that their position is untenable and refuse to resign. Who would want this sort of person representing their constituency?
It's a totally unacceptable rule that they cannot be sacked something which NONE of the parties seem willing to change, they're all a bunch of hypocrites.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a totally unacceptable rule that they cannot be sacked something which NONE of the parties seem willing to change, they're all a bunch of hypocrites.

Their employer is the only one who should be able to sack them. Their employer is the electorate.

As much as I agree with your sentiments, it would be outrageous if the electorate were denied their choice of representatives, unless they're jailed.

[hibsbollah]

Their employer is the only one who should be able to sack them. Their employer is the electorate.

As much as I agree with your sentiments, it would be outrageous if the electorate were denied their choice of representatives, unless they're jailed.

It’s still subject to legal appeal and she’s denied all the charges. You can’t sack her, but you can remove her from front line political activity, which is what didn’t happen to Owen Paterson, initially at least. The big difference in this case and Johnson/Paterson is Starmer has brutalised her in the press and called for her resignation even before the appeal. It helps that she’s from the Left, of course. She’s also the subject of mass social media racial abuse and death threats.

[Keith_M]

There's a post on another thread that Labour has taken a one point lead in Voting Intentions.


You could take that two ways:

1) It's a positive that there's marginally more people currently intending to vote Labour than intend to vote for the Tories.

2) It's a sign of how little appeal they have that they only occasionally gain (and then lose) a marginal lead in voting intentions compared to a corrupt and useless government led by a charlatan.



Personally, I can see both sides of the argument.

[hibsbollah]

There's a post on another thread that Labour has taken a one point lead in Voting Intentions.


You could take that two ways:

1) It's a positive that there's marginally more people currently intending to vote Labour than intend to vote for the Tories.

2) It's a sign of how little appeal they have that they only occasionally gain (and then lose) a marginal lead in voting intentions compared to a corrupt and useless government led by a charlatan.



Personally, I can see both sides of the argument.

Good question, and that obviously depends on your point of view:greengrin Im going for 2).

In the most recent polls i saw had the Tories losing 5 points, without Labour gaining. That would suggest its as a result of recent bad Tory performance not Labour strong performance. Im not a fan of Starmer so i could be accused of being ungenerous but thats genuinely what the polls seem to say. A few polls will give different ups and downs, the poll of polls is a good summary, as of November 8th they give an average 3 point lead to the Tories.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

As you can see from the timeline, the Tories have been consistent in being the most popular UK party since 2014 (and beyond). Labour have held small leads on occasions, the most sustained one between late 2017 and early 2018. This is how Tony Blairs response to that poll lead (under Corbyn) at that time, was reported;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41952976

I dont have to point out that Starmer has never held a sustained polling lead, even with a unified party, and has never been expected to hold a twenty pointy lead over a midterm government either :wink:So its all about under what markers you judge success, who judges that success and what prejudices they're operating under. Its about expectation against reality:greengrin

I very much want to believe the Tories are about to suffer a downward turn in their fortunes. They certainly deserve it.

[He's here!]

It’s still subject to legal appeal and she’s denied all the charges. You can’t sack her, but you can remove her from front line political activity, which is what didn’t happen to Owen Paterson, initially at least. The big difference in this case and Johnson/Paterson is Starmer has brutalised her in the press and called for her resignation even before the appeal. It helps that she’s from the Left, of course. She’s also the subject of mass social media racial abuse and death threats.

Everyone's guilty until proven guilty these days of twitter pile-on cancel culture...

In saying that, I don't think Starmer would have hung her out to dry quite so publicly if there was any serious doubt about her guilt. She sounds a tad unhinged.

I'm not sure I agree that constituents should be the ultimate arbiters when it comes to MPs or MSPs indulging in behaviour which most would regard as making their position untenable. That means they can continue to sit tight and draw their salary (often for years) even if their party suspends them. Margaret Ferrier is the clear leader here when it comes to brass neck, although the Labour MP Fiona Onasanya tried to hang on to her job despite being the first MP to be jailed in about 30 years. MSPs Derek Mackay and Mark McDonald were others who ignored their party leader's calls for them to resign.

[hibsbollah]

Everyone's guilty until proven guilty these days of twitter pile-on cancel culture...

In saying that, I don't think Starmer would have hung her out to dry quite so publicly if there was any serious doubt about her guilt. She sounds a tad unhinged.

I'm not sure I agree that constituents should be the ultimate arbiters when it comes to MPs or MSPs indulging in behaviour which most would regard as making their position untenable. That means they can continue to sit tight and draw their salary (often for years) even if their party suspends them. Margaret Ferrier is the clear leader here when it comes to brass neck, although the Labour MP Fiona Onasanya tried to hang on to her job despite being the first MP to be jailed in about 30 years. MSPs Derek Mackay and Mark McDonald were others who ignored their party leader's calls for them to resign.

Obviously as a Tory, you’re making a deliberately partial political point here, which is part of the ‘take the eye off the ball’ strategy the Tory press is using to divert attention from the real problem in political life: Widespread Corruption for financial gain at the top of establishment life. Individual tales of bad behaviour by opposition politicians (some of them still subject to full judicial process) only works as a diversion tactic if you try really really hard :greengrin

[He's here!]

Obviously as a Tory, you’re making a deliberately partial political point here, which is part of the ‘take the eye off the ball’ strategy the Tory press is using to divert attention from the real problem in political life: Widespread Corruption for financial gain at the top of establishment life. Individual tales of bad behaviour by opposition politicians (some of them still subject to full judicial process) only works as a diversion tactic if you try really really hard :greengrin

Thanks for explaining my thought process to me. And here was me thinking I was entitled to an opinion of my own...

I'd question whether (like many who can't abide the SNP) using my constituency vote tactically for the Scottish Conservatives makes me a 'Tory' but I guess it's a covenient way of brushing off any unwanted viewpoints on here 😉

[hibsbollah]

Thanks for explaining my thought process to me. And here was me thinking I was entitled to an opinion of my own...

I'd question whether (like many who can't abide the SNP) using my constituency vote tactically for the Scottish Conservatives makes me a 'Tory' but I guess it's a covenient way of brushing off any unwanted viewpoints on here 😉

You're entitled to any opinion you like, obviously. One of mine is if you vote Tory, calling you 'a Tory' isnt inaccurate.

Some of the Geoffrey Cox stuff is truly bizarre. British QC, millionaire many times over, is paid almost £1million a year on top of his MPs salary, to provide advice to the British Virgin Islands in a legal case AGAINST the UK Govt??

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/12/revealed-geoffrey-cox-british-virgin-islands-villa

[Kato]

to provide advice to the British Virgin Islands in a legal case AGAINST the UK Govt??

I've been waiting for that aspect to be spoken about on the BBC. I may have missed it but there's been nothing as yet, just smudgy smears stuff about 2nd jobs, as though it's normal.



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[hibsbollah]

I've been waiting for that aspect to be spoken about on the BBC. I may have missed it but there's been nothing as yet, just smudgy smears stuff about 2nd jobs, as though it's normal.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I know, it was my first thought listening to the coverage.

Its not about whether or not its OK to take '2nd jobs', FFS! That's a tiny sideshow to the much bigger circus act. Ask the Big questions please.

[Andy Bee]

So Cox was drafted in to defend the BVI on allegations of corruption and then now himself facing allegations of corruption because of it, the accusers of the said corruption are the UK Government who are facing allegations of corruption and Cox is being paid by both. Nothing to see here folks. My brain literally feels the same it does when looking at one of them Salvador Dali paintings.

[Smartie]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?

[hibsbollah]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?

The F1 exemption from New Labours tobacco advertising ban was an open and shut case, especially after the cabinet papers came out that backed up Andrew Rawnsleys original claims. Bernie Eccelestone paid £1million to ensure F1 was exempt and Blair took it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/oct/12/tonyblair-labour

Obviously prior to that the Major government was defined by sleaze (and Europe). The current standards oversight system under attack by Johnson was put in place by Major himself as an attempt to do something about it.

[Ozyhibby]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?

https://www.euronews.com/2017/04/03/the-uk-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-anti-mafia-journalists-saviano


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[Kato]

https://www.euronews.com/2017/04/03/the-uk-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-anti-mafia-journalists-saviano


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"the financial services industry in London facilitates worldwide criminal capitalism."


The actual reason for Brexit.

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[Prof. Shaggy]

I can't read this article in full.

It's been explained on another thread Trade Unions represent workers who vote for all the different political parties, not just Labour. The Union's represent workers and campaign for better pay and conditions, again this benefits people who vote for all parties, even workers who are not Union members. When joining a Union you have the right to opt out of contributions towards the Labour Party fund, this is made very clear to all new recruits. That is the only time I personally ever heard the words Labour Party. Politics and workers rights are entirely separate, that is unless you want to pay double bubble and join the SNP Trade Union Group. The SNP union is affiliated to the main Unions in Scotland, they want workers to pay a fee to spread the word about Independence, this is an example of mixing politics with workers rights, it offers nothing of note to any undervalued sector.

The EIS is a Scottish Union with the largest membership in Scotland. I would happily bet that a large percentage of members do not vote for Labour. They are consulting (not officially) their members just now on Industrial Action, as are the SQA. Nothing to do with the Labour Party.

The SQA isn't a union.
Nor does it take industrial action.

[Santa Cruz]

The SQA isn't a union.
Nor does it take industrial action.

Represented by Unite

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/threat-of-scottish-exams-disruption-as-sqa-staff-consider-strike-action-3449036

[Jack]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?

It's not unique, there have been examples in the past but in the main, in the UK, it was very minor.

We now have the situation were it's an open secret but it's OK because so many folk think they'd like to have a pint with Boris. That's despite the fact Boris and his pals would mercilessly rip said pint drinking oink to shreds.

FAG! Where's my drink you lazy ****er! And worser ;-)

[lapsedhibee]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?

A seat in the Lords £1m in Blair's time?

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour takes SIX POINT lead in @SavantaComRes poll for @DailyMailUK

Lab 40 (+5)
Con 34 (-4)
Lib Dem 10 (=)
SNP 5 (=)
Green 5 (+1)

Changes with 5-7 Nov

[ronaldo7]

See all this corruption that is coming to light?

Is this a new thing ie unique to Boris' government and their particular set of morals?

I realise we're coming off more than 10 years of Tory rule and that serious question marks lie next to Greensill Cameron at the moment.

But was it always this way? What was going on under Blair and Brown and before that?


Blair appointed 374 life peers during his time in office, Gordon Brown 34.

So much for abolishing the HOL.

[Keith_M]

Labour takes SIX POINT lead in @SavantaComRes poll for @DailyMailUK

Lab 40 (+5)
Con 34 (-4)
Lib Dem 10 (=)
SNP 5 (=)
Green 5 (+1)

Changes with 5-7 Nov


Maybe the recent stories on Tory corruption are finally starting to have some effect.

[Glory Lurker]

Labour's love for the HoL is an open goal for the SNP. For me it's where they should aim all the time. It could, and should, finish them off in Scotland.

[Pretty Boy]

Labour takes SIX POINT lead in @SavantaComRes poll for @DailyMailUK

Lab 40 (+5)
Con 34 (-4)
Lib Dem 10 (=)
SNP 5 (=)
Green 5 (+1)

Changes with 5-7 Nov

Time for Starmer to prove he has what it takes and kick them whilst they are down.

I don't really believe he has it in him though.

[Hiber-nation]

It's funny, no matter what party I've voted for I've always had favourite politicians from most parties (can't think of any tories offhand mind you) but from this Labour lot I can't think of one who I have much regard for. If only there were a few of them who actually recognised that Independence is a possibility instead of basically ridiculing it. And yes the House of Lords....come on.

I've voted SNP since the 2010 General Election but I cringe when I see the likes of rent a cliché Kirsten Oswald (yes I mentioned her on another thread and I don't have it in for her but she is so poor) getting interviewed. There is so much opportunity out there for Labour with such a dearth of quality in this bunch of SNP MPs but continuing to be Indy deniers is doing them no good.

[Hibbyradge]

It's funny, no matter what party I've voted for I've always had favourite politicians from most parties (can't think of any tories offhand mind you) but from this Labour lot I can't think of one who I have much regard for. If only there were a few of them who actually recognised that Independence is a possibility instead of basically ridiculing it. And yes the House of Lords....come on.

I've voted SNP since the 2010 General Election but I cringe when I see the likes of rent a cliché Kirsten Oswald (yes I mentioned her on another thread and I don't have it in for her but she is so poor) getting interviewed. There is so much opportunity out there for Labour with such a dearth of quality in this bunch of SNP MPs but continuing to be Indy deniers is doing them no good.

It's doing them no good in Scotland, but if they said they were pro Indy, they'd completely collapse in rUK.

[Jack]

It's doing them no good in Scotland, but if they said they were pro Indy, they'd completely collapse in rUK.

I'm not so sure. The daily mail and express, in particular, have whipped up a lot of resentment over the years I reckon there's a significant number down south would celebrate getting rid of the Scotch spongers.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not so sure. The daily mail and express, in particular, have whipped up a lot of resentment over the years I reckon there's a significant number down south would celebrate getting rid of the Scotch spongers.

There are people like that, of course, but the Union is more important to most. I know a lot of Scots down here, none of them support independence.

[Kato]

There are people like that, of course, but the Union is more important to most. I know a lot of Scots down here, none of them support independence.That's understandable but to a lot of Scots living in Scotland it doesn't feel like a Union.

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[Hibbyradge]

That's understandable but to a lot of Scots living in Scotland it doesn't feel like a Union.

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Of course, but I was answering the point about folk in England being glad to be rid of the Scottish scroungers.

[Keith_M]

Of course, but I was answering the point about folk in England being glad to be rid of the Scottish scroungers.



TBF, you only mentioned Scottish people living in England.

They're not exactly going to make comments about wanting to get rid of Scottish scroungers.

:hmmm:

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1459825820231479296?s=21

Labour saying they will stop MP’s having second jobs. I wonder if this is like a Labour promise to get rid of the House of Lords?


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[He's here!]

It's funny, no matter what party I've voted for I've always had favourite politicians from most parties (can't think of any tories offhand mind you) but from this Labour lot I can't think of one who I have much regard for. If only there were a few of them who actually recognised that Independence is a possibility instead of basically ridiculing it. And yes the House of Lords....come on.

I've voted SNP since the 2010 General Election but I cringe when I see the likes of rent a cliché Kirsten Oswald (yes I mentioned her on another thread and I don't have it in for her but she is so poor) getting interviewed. There is so much opportunity out there for Labour with such a dearth of quality in this bunch of SNP MPs but continuing to be Indy deniers is doing them no good.

If there's such a dearth of quality among the politicians of both parties it's hard to see how becoming independence supporters would make much difference to Labour. The SNP have the stranglehold on that particular selling point.

Bottom line is Labour loathe the SNP (and vice versa) and that alone is probably enough for them to remain staunchly pro-UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATtnQ_Rdn5Y

[Hibbyradge]

TBF, you only mentioned Scottish people living in England.

They're not exactly going to make comments about wanting to get rid of Scottish scroungers.

:hmmm:

Yes, I didn't make my point very well.

The initial point was about Labour's electability if they were to support independence. There may be some people in England who would like to get rid of Scotland, but the vast majority like, and are proud of, the union.

I know English people who support and understand the calls for independence, but none who want rid because of Scottish scrounging.

If Labour supported independence, they'd be seen to have caved in to Sturgeon etc and their support would tank.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

[lord bunberry]

Labour takes SIX POINT lead in @SavantaComRes poll for @DailyMailUK

Lab 40 (+5)
Con 34 (-4)
Lib Dem 10 (=)
SNP 5 (=)
Green 5 (+1)

Changes with 5-7 Nov
It’s quite ironic that Labour have managed to surge ahead at a time where their leader was isolating.

[Radium]

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,labour-pains-an-interview-with-jack-mcconnell

I am not a supporter and others may be better placed to comment around his views on Labour.

Not sure that completely ignoring the impact of Brexit on the constitutional settlement shows a good grasp of current politics.

Things are polarised, so would agree with that.

Regarding the redistribution model for the 4 nations, I took it to mean Scotland getting more from elsewhere. Full fiscal autonomy for the Scottish share of the £800 billion UK budget would be a start.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,labour-pains-an-interview-with-jack-mcconnell

I am not a supporter and others may be better placed to comment around his views on Labour.

Not sure that completely ignoring the impact of Brexit on the constitutional settlement shows a good grasp of current politics.

Things are polarised, so would agree with that.

Regarding the redistribution model for the 4 nations, I took it to mean Scotland getting more from elsewhere. Full fiscal autonomy for the Scottish share of the £800 billion UK budget would be a start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nor does he acknowledge how badly designed our devolution settlement is and that was 100% down to the Labour Party that he was part of.
I do agree that nothing is getting talked about properly while the constitutional issue remains unresolved but again, that’s on the unionists. They can call a vote anytime they want.
And yes, without Brexit, it wouldn’t even be up for discussion for another ten years at least.


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[lucky]

Nor does he acknowledge how badly designed our devolution settlement is and that was 100% down to the Labour Party that he was part of.
I do agree that nothing is getting talked about properly while the constitutional issue remains unresolved but again, that’s on the unionists. They can call a vote anytime they want.
And yes, without Brexit, it wouldn’t even be up for discussion for another ten years at least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wrong yet again. The devolution settlement was cross party and also involved civil groups such as churches and trade unions under the Scottish Constitutional Convention. McConell was a Labour Party official during the discussions on the powers and only entered Parliament after the 1999 election. The settlement at the time was regarded by most as a fair settlement but 22 years on some think it went to far and others not far enough. Devolution is a journey and not a settlement, we’ve seen this a more powers have come to the Scottish Parliament but where that journey ends is still up for debate and may eventually end up in independence. Then as a nation we start another journey as any independence settlement won’t be the same 20 years down the line.

[ronaldo7]

The party of devolution they said. Not anymore. Nowadays they'd rather go along to vote with the Tories on how cash is spent in Scotland, direct from Westminster.

https://twitter.com/ElenaWhitham/status/1461425618034348042

[ronaldo7]

Wrong yet again. The devolution settlement was cross party and also involved civil groups such as churches and trade unions under the Scottish Constitutional Convention. McConell was a Labour Party official during the discussions on the powers and only entered Parliament after the 1999 election. The settlement at the time was regarded by most as a fair settlement but 22 years on some think it went to far and others not far enough. Devolution is a journey and not a settlement, we’ve seen this a more powers have come to the Scottish Parliament but where that journey ends is still up for debate and may eventually end up in independence. The as a nation we start another journey as any independence settlement won’t be the same 20 years down the line.

All this time, I've been told it was Labour wot done it. :greengrin

[Northernhibee]

Beginning to wonder if Labour are actually playing this really well.

I’ve chatted with a few Tory voters online and they seem more likely to vote for a character than a policy. They’ve given the government enough rope to show their true colours and in recent weeks it feels like the gloves are completely off. They’ve been relentless on shining a light on the corruption.

This may actually pay off in the coming months in terms of winning back ex Labour voters.

I’ve also thought this for a long time but I think Angela Rayner is excellent.

[degenerated]

Nor does he acknowledge how badly designed our devolution settlement is and that was 100% down to the Labour Party that he was part of.
I do agree that nothing is getting talked about properly while the constitutional issue remains unresolved but again, that’s on the unionists. They can call a vote anytime they want.
And yes, without Brexit, it wouldn’t even be up for discussion for another ten years at least.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSome decent points made in this look at McConnell's nonsense.

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2021/11/19/dinosaur-numbers-increasing/

[lucky]

All this time, I've been told it was Labour wot done it. :greengrin

Labour delivered it through Westminster, as you know :greengrin, but it was the convention that won the hearts and minds of the Scottish people.

[Keith_M]

Yes, I didn't make my point very well.

The initial point was about Labour's electability if they were to support independence. There may be some people in England who would like to get rid of Scotland, but the vast majority like, and are proud of, the union.

I know English people who support and understand the calls for independence, but none who want rid because of Scottish scrounging.

If Labour supported independence, they'd be seen to have caved in to Sturgeon etc and their support would tank.

All in my humble opinion, of course.


No need to be humble, I agree with nearly all of that.

The problem is that I actually know an English person that does want rid of 'Scrounging Scotland' and lives up (or down) to all the worst stereotypes. Obviously I've got no idea how widespread that viewpoint is.


TBF, there's a lot of Scottish people that don't exactly cover themselves in glory when talking about England and the English.

[ronaldo7]

Labour delivered it through Westminster, as you know :greengrin, but it was the convention that won the hearts and minds of the Scottish people.

I prefer that the people delivered it after the convention forced Labour's hand after the 79 debacle. 😆

[Since90+2]

I heard a Tory supporter on the radio the other day and he made a good point about Starmer.

His point was, that like Corbyn, he's not very good but he's not very good from a centrist position rather than a far left position and he might not have to be very good to end over a decade of Tory rule. I think there is a feeling amongst Conservatives that Boris could very well lose the next election to Starmer.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Sunak as Tory leader going into the next election. If that is the case then the Tories will remain in Office IMO.

[Bostonhibby]

No need to be humble, I agree with nearly all of that.

The problem is that I actually know an English person that does want rid of 'Scrounging Scotland' and lives up (or down) to all the worst stereotypes. Obviously I've got no idea how widespread that viewpoint is.


TBF, there's a lot of Scottish people that don't exactly cover themselves in glory when talking about England and the English.You dont have to look too hard to find that attitude in rural Lincolnshire either, sadly.

It's a feature of post Brexit / post Bozo coming to power England.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

I prefer that the people delivered it after the convention forced Labour's hand after the 79 debacle. [emoji38]Freudian slip from Scottish labour25295

[Glory Lurker]

Freudian slip from Scottish labour25295

Hee hee hee!

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/259809078_4639943782729083_845794564506824697_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=ysAwWIq58n0AX8HFEau&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=13a86d96f833a1d07c462fdd9154ddc4&oe=61A44228


caption

now let me get this right, that bag on the top goes on top of the bag below

[SHODAN]

Maybe the recent stories on Tory corruption are finally starting to have some effect.

Johnson is being prepared for removal. He'll be a damage sink for a wee while longer, leadership election, new PM will get a clean slate. CON +10. Rinse and repeat.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour source confirms shadow cabinet reshuffle underway.

But sounds like Angela Rayner may have been left out of loop (because that worked so well last time).

Deputy leader: "I don't know the details of any reshuffle, I've been concentrating on the job I have been doing."


In other news, is there any truth that Monica Lennon is no longer a member of Sarwar's front bench team at Holyrood?

[Ozyhibby]

Labour source confirms shadow cabinet reshuffle underway.

But sounds like Angela Rayner may have been left out of loop (because that worked so well last time).

Deputy leader: "I don't know the details of any reshuffle, I've been concentrating on the job I have been doing."


In other news, is there any truth that Monica Lennon is no longer a member of Sarwar's front bench team at Holyrood?

He surely can’t balls up another reshuffle?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SHODAN]

Labour source confirms shadow cabinet reshuffle underway.

But sounds like Angela Rayner may have been left out of loop (because that worked so well last time).

Deputy leader: "I don't know the details of any reshuffle, I've been concentrating on the job I have been doing."


In other news, is there any truth that Monica Lennon is no longer a member of Sarwar's front bench team at Holyrood?

I mind when Corbyn did a reshuffle in the first year of his leadership the media went into overdrive about treachery and purges etc.

[He's here!]

Labour source confirms shadow cabinet reshuffle underway.

But sounds like Angela Rayner may have been left out of loop (because that worked so well last time).

Deputy leader: "I don't know the details of any reshuffle, I've been concentrating on the job I have been doing."


In other news, is there any truth that Monica Lennon is no longer a member of Sarwar's front bench team at Holyrood?

Rayner and Starmer clearly loathe each other:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59461674

I'm unclear why there's any backing for returning the whip to Corbyn. His reaction to what was a very damning EHRC report into racism in the party was pathetic and until he makes good on that I can't see Starmer giving him the nod any time soon, if at all (especially when you bear in mind Starmer has said he hasn't even spoken to Corbyn in over a year).

[Keith_M]

Rayner and Starmer clearly loathe each other:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59461674

I'm unclear why there's any backing for returning the whip to Corbyn. His reaction to what was a very damning EHRC report into racism in the party was pathetic and until he makes good on that I can't see Starmer giving him the nod any time soon, if at all (especially when you bear in mind Starmer has said he hasn't even spoken to Corbyn in over a year).


The report was into Anti-Semitism, and Corbyn said the level of Anti-Semitism in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons” by his political opponents and the media.

He did not say there had been no instances of Anti-Semitism or that his party had handled every complaint perfectly.

As a neutral in all of this, I find it hard to disagree with what he actually said.

[superfurryhibby]

The report was into Anti-Semitism, and Corbyn said the level of Anti-Semitism in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons” by his political opponents and the media.

He did not say there had been no instances of Anti-Semitism or that his party had handled every complaint perfectly.

As a neutral in all of this, I find it hard to disagree with what he actually said.

Yes, totally agree with this. Corbyn was right and what made it worse was the eagerness of his "comrades" in the Labour Party to fuel that particular nonsense.

Starmer and his supporters despise socialism more than they do Conservatism. The treatment of Corbyn has been a shameful episode.

As for Labour, I suspect they will probably never govern again.

[He's here!]

The report was into Anti-Semitism, and Corbyn said the level of Anti-Semitism in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons” by his political opponents and the media.

He did not say there had been no instances of Anti-Semitism or that his party had handled every complaint perfectly.

As a neutral in all of this, I find it hard to disagree with what he actually said.

The investigation was not carried out by either his political opponents or the media but by the independent EHRC, whose only other investigation into a poiucal party focused on the National Front. The only political interference it unearthed was by the Labour leadership in their attempts to obstruct complaints. They could hardly have been more scathing of Corbyn yet he remsined utterly blinkered to their findings. It's little wonder Starmer continues to see him as a liability.

I never understand why anti-Semitism, the world's oldest hatred, is deemed by some as not proper racism.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-59482599

Senior staff not happy with Sarwar.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-59482599

Senior staff not happy with Sarwar.

If this bit is true, then the Labour party and Sarwar in particular need to take stock. I'm all for opposition holding government to account but to use a families loss, when they don't even know about it, is the pits.

The letter adds: "We are particularly disappointed that individual patients are being discussed in parliament without the knowledge of the families concerned, causing untold distress to families already grieving the loss of their loved one."

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/103489db19ad7b29255f57f1c353013e.jpg


Sarwar polling worse than Leonard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

The Starmer/Rayner issue threatens to dilute whatever incremental progress Labour have made in recent weeks:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christmas-drinks-row-latest-labour-stand-off-between-keir-starmer-and-angela-rayner-1328697

[Ozyhibby]

The Starmer/Rayner issue threatens to dilute whatever incremental progress Labour have made in recent weeks:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christmas-drinks-row-latest-labour-stand-off-between-keir-starmer-and-angela-rayner-1328697

Agree. Tories looking good for 2023 election.


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[ronaldo7]

It's been reported that Anas Sarwar tweeted photos of mould supposedly from the QMUH yesterday. Trying to relate it to the ongoing situation there. It seems the photos were 2 year and 4 year old, and the situation had been fixed.

Shameful if true.

[hibsbollah]

The Starmer/Rayner issue threatens to dilute whatever incremental progress Labour have made in recent weeks:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christmas-drinks-row-latest-labour-stand-off-between-keir-starmer-and-angela-rayner-1328697

There’s been no incremental progress, unless you count a slight shift from 35% to 37% in voting intention in a 6 week period while the tories are riddled with sleaze and imploding. Starmers personal ratings are the worst of any Labour leader EVER (yes, Corbyn haters), and he’s incapable of getting along with his colleagues.

Worst leader ever and should have had a challenge months ago.

[Keith_M]

The investigation was not carried out by either his political opponents or the media but by the independent EHRC, whose only other investigation into a poiucal party focused on the National Front... .


The Muslim Council For Great Britain made a request to the EHRC in May2019, then again in November 2019 to investigate complaints of Islamophobia in the Conservative party, and on both occasions received no reply. They then presented a dossier to the EHRC in March 2020 with 300 examples of (alleged) Islamophobic behaviour.

The EHRC considered setting up an inquiry but then cancelled this and allowed the Conservative Party to carry out their own inquiry instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/12/equalities-watchdog-drops-plan-for-tory-islamophobia-inquiry

This hardly smacks of total independence and neutrality, and kind of ruins the argument about only Labour and the NF being investigated, as it wilfully ignored the ruling party that decides on it's funding and also the scope of inquiries.



The only political interference it unearthed was by the Labour leadership in their attempts to obstruct complaints. They could hardly have been more scathing of Corbyn yet he remsined utterly blinkered to their findings. It's little wonder Starmer continues to see him as a liability.
....


And yet there was nothing in the results of the enquiry that was enough evidence for Starmer to suspend Corbyn.

He had to resort to a faux media outrage over Corbyn's claim that the previous Media coverage, and from some within his own party, had been largely politically motivated.




I never understand why anti-Semitism, the world's oldest hatred, is deemed by some as not proper racism.


Neither Corbyn, nor anyone on here that has tried to give the full context of what he actually said, has at any point claimed that Anti-Semitism is acceptable, so I'm struggling to see why you chose to write that

...though I recognise this is a common tactic, to raise a suggestion of Anti-Semitism in anyone that disagrees with a certain viewpoint, which kind of reinforces the point Corbyn was trying to make.

[hibsbollah]

The Muslim Council For Great Britain made a request to the EHRC in May2019, then again in November 2019 to investigate complaints of Islamophobia in the Conservative party, and on both occasions received no reply. They then presented a dossier to the EHRC in March 2020 with 300 examples of (alleged) Islamophobic behaviour.

The EHRC considered setting up an inquiry but then cancelled this and allowed the Conservative Party to carry out their own inquiry instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/12/equalities-watchdog-drops-plan-for-tory-islamophobia-inquiry

This hardly smacks of total independence and neutrality, and kind of ruins the argument about only Labour and the NF being investigated, as it wilfully ignored the ruling party that decides on it's funding and also the scope of inquiries.





And yet there was nothing in the results of the enquiry that was enough evidence for Starmer to suspend Corbyn.

He had to resort to a faux media outrage over Corbyn's claim that the previous Media coverage, and from some within his own party, had been largely politically motivated.



Neither Corbyn, nor anyone on here that has tried to give the full context of what he actually said, has at any point claimed that Anti-Semitism is acceptable, so I'm struggling to see why you chose to write that

...though I recognise this is a common tactic, to raise a suggestion of Anti-Semitism in anyone that disagrees with a certain viewpoint, which kind of reinforces the point Corbyn was trying to make.

Strangely, there has been NOT A TRACE of anti semitism (well reports of anti semitism) since Corbyn disappeared from the political scene. The Labour Party seems to have been magically cleansed of the problem. At the same time, the rights and wrongs of the state of Israel is also way off the political map. They are doing lots of interesting work on covid though, I’ve been reading.

You posted a good piece by Norman Finkelstein about the weaponisation of anti semitism claims a while back;

‘Once the Nazi holocaust became the cultural referent, then, if you wanted to touch a nerve regarding Palestinian suffering, you had to make the analogy with the Nazis, because that was the only thing that resonated for Jews. If you compared the Palestinians to Native Americans, nobody would give a darn.’

The EHRC definition of AS now makes Finkelsteins very relatable and debateable views above, explicitly AS. That’s whats happened to political debate over the last five years.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1469005412339007489?s=21


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[Radium]

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1469014162470846469?s=21

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211209/4b23b9a240019f70964f9a8b2caa67d0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211209/a49bd8b4b6ab9dbf4df7292d74ea5766.jpg

There are arguments against devolution but saying that things are too good is absurd


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1469005412339007489?s=21


Survation.
@Survation
The Government has worse, similar or better standards/principles than governments in the past

Worse 48% (Con 36%, Lab 67%)
Similar 36% (Con 49%, Lab 23%)
Better 10% (Con 11%, Lab 6%)

6% of Labour voters think that the current government has better principles than past governments. :wtf:

[Kato]

Strangely, there has been NOT A TRACE of anti semitism (well reports of anti semitism) since Corbyn disappeared from the political scene. The Labour Party seems to have been magically cleansed of the problem. At the same time, the rights and wrongs of the state of Israel is also way off the political map. They are doing lots of interesting work on covid though, I’ve been reading.

You posted a good piece by Norman Finkelstein about the weaponisation of anti semitism claims a while back;

‘Once the Nazi holocaust became the cultural referent, then, if you wanted to touch a nerve regarding Palestinian suffering, you had to make the analogy with the Nazis, because that was the only thing that resonated for Jews. If you compared the Palestinians to Native Americans, nobody would give a darn.’

The EHRC definition of AS now makes Finkelsteins very relatable and debateable views above, explicitly AS. That’s whats happened to political debate over the last five years.

Good post.

Where are the EHRC this week?

Beneath the dead cat Tory Party party stories the Govt are pushing through legislation which gives them the power to revoke the British citizenship of >5 million people many of them born in this country.

If this were Corbyn enabling this legislation (which he wouldn't have) the noise would be pretty loud.

So its whorth asking again where, where are the EHRC in all this?

[Stairway 2 7]

Starmer:

“We will always support measures to protect public health. We are a patriotic party. And it is our patriotic duty to vote for these measures

We get it your patriotic Keir

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer:

“We will always support measures to protect public health. We are a patriotic party. And it is our patriotic duty to vote for these measures

We get it your patriotic Keir

Did he have a union flag beside him?[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Did he have a union flag beside him?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Had the queen's pants over his heed, she wasn't in them

[Jones28]

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1469014162470846469?s=21

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211209/4b23b9a240019f70964f9a8b2caa67d0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211209/a49bd8b4b6ab9dbf4df7292d74ea5766.jpg

There are arguments against devolution but saying that things are too good is absurd


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Unfortunate use of "full flow" in article regarding Lord Pishybreeks

[JimboHibs]

Unfortunate use of "full flow" in article regarding Lord Pishybreeks

Haha 😂😄

[greenlex]

After yesterdays by election result I think it’s fair to say Labour are struggling big time and I think it’s terminal.

[Hibbyradge]

After yesterdays by election result I think it’s fair to say Labour are struggling big time and I think it’s terminal.

I don't read it like that at all.

Labour central office didn't put much effort into their campaign and the electorate weren't going to jump from voting Tory for decades to voting Labour.

What we can read from that result is that the Tories, and in particular their buffoon of a leader, are in deep trouble.

And, remember, Labour are still well ahead in the opinion polls and gaining.

[greenlex]

I don't read it like that at all.

Labour central office didn't put much effort into their campaign and the electorate weren't going to jump from voting Tory for decades to voting Labour.

What we can read from that result is that the Tories, and in particular their buffoon of a leader, are in deep trouble.

And, remember, Labour are still well ahead in the opinion polls and gaining.
I get that there’s a protest vote about it but it does have a very different feel about it. I suppose your not going to get true blues voting Labour maybe I’m wrong. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't read it like that at all.

Labour central office didn't put much effort into their campaign and the electorate weren't going to jump from voting Tory for decades to voting Labour.

What we can read from that result is that the Tories, and in particular their buffoon of a leader, are in deep trouble.

And, remember, Labour are still well ahead in the opinion polls and gaining.

:agree:

Classic Lib Dem by-election tactical vote complete with their leader proclaiming it a "watershed moment". Aye right.

Another nail in Johson's coffin. I think they'll probably keep him around a few months more to soak up any more covid bad news then he'll be mutually consented and forever remembered as the worst UK prime minister ever.

[Northernhibee]

:agree:

Classic Lib Dem by-election tactical vote complete with their leader proclaiming it a "watershed moment". Aye right.

Another nail in Johson's coffin. I think they'll probably keep him around a few months more to soak up any more covid bad news then he'll be mutually consented and forever remembered as the worst UK prime minister ever.

I can't see an ego the size of Johnson not taking a few down with him though.

[lucky]

After yesterdays by election result I think it’s fair to say Labour are struggling big time and I think it’s terminal.

Only bad thing about the result for Labour is that the Tories will dump the buffoon. Not sure how a political party that’s around 8/9 points ahead in opinion polls is in terminal decline.

[Hibbyradge]

Only bad thing about the result for Labour is that the Tories will dump the buffoon. Not sure how a political party that’s around 8/9 points ahead in opinion polls is in terminal decline.

They won't get rid for a while yet unless there's another revelation.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/ItCorbyn/status/1471769943653953540?t=LGbTx74kRU1qXhf7fPXTrA&s=19

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I don't read it like that at all.

Labour central office didn't put much effort into their campaign and the electorate weren't going to jump from voting Tory for decades to voting Labour.

What we can read from that result is that the Tories, and in particular their buffoon of a leader, are in deep trouble.

And, remember, Labour are still well ahead in the opinion polls and gaining.

I’m not sure that explains a Labour vote collapse to under 10%.
We were told Starmer taking the party to the Right was necessary to win over Tory voters.
The truth is large swathes of England are never voting for Labour.
If swing voters were coming Starmers way, why not campaign hard to win in North Shropshire?

[bigwheel]

I’m not sure that explains a Labour vote collapse to under 10%.
We were told Starmer taking the party to the Right was necessary to win over Tory voters.
The truth is large swathes of England are never voting for Labour.
If swing voters were coming Starmers way, why not campaign hard to win in North Shropshire?

Was it not the impact of a progressive alliance voting approach to beat the Tories . Lib Dems had the best chance so lots of Labour voters voted for them ?

[Santa Cruz]

Was it not the impact of a progressive alliance voting approach to beat the Tories . Lib Dems had the best chance so lots of Labour voters voted for them ?

Yip. They're not moving to the Right either, they're just not as Left wing as some ex-Labour voters would prefer. I see them as a centre-left party, others may disagree.

[hibsbollah]

Yip. They're not moving to the Right.

Are you serious?

[hibsbollah]

Was it not the impact of a progressive alliance voting approach to beat the Tories . Lib Dems had the best chance so lots of Labour voters voted for them ?

A progressive alliance was explicitly rejected by the candidate and the leadership. There WAS obviously an ‘anyone but the Tories’ electoral approach, but that doesn’t answer the question as to why was it the Lib Dems, not the supposedly ‘electable’ Starmer Labour, who benefited and became the palatable option? That’s was the whole point of the Starmer project, win Tory votes.

[Jack]

Yip. They're not moving to the Right either, they're just not as Left wing as some ex-Labour voters would prefer. I see them as a centre-left party, others may disagree.

To be honest I see the Libdems as a party of swingers! They'll lean to whatever side they think will get them the most votes. In tory areas they'll swing to the right, in Labour areas they'll swing to the left.

[hibsbollah]

To be honest I see the Libdems as a party of swingers! They'll lean to whatever side they think will get them the most votes. In tory areas they'll swing to the right, in Labour areas they'll swing to the left.

Personally, I have zero interest in voting for a party like that or in a political system like that. It’s actually the fastest possible route to extremist politics.

[Santa Cruz]

To be honest I see the Libdems as a party of swingers! They'll lean to whatever side they think will get them the most votes. In tory areas they'll swing to the right, in Labour areas they'll swing to the left.

Aye that's Libdems. They hedge their bets as they know their only hope of making it to Gov ever is in a coalition. Fence sitters. I think they can also gain votes from people who don't favour either of the main parties but still want to use their vote.

[ronaldo7]

A progressive alliance was explicitly rejected by the candidate and the leadership. There WAS obviously an ‘anyone but the Tories’ electoral approach, but that doesn’t answer the question as to why was it the Lib Dems, not the supposedly ‘electable’ Starmer Labour, who benefited and became the palatable option? That’s was the whole point of the Starmer project, win Tory votes.

In 2019, Labour polled in second place with 12.5k votes to the lib dems 5.5k votes. You'd have thought the Labour party would have pushed for it to be them challenging the Tories. Somethings wrong here, unless as you say, many parts of England aren't voting Labour anytime soon.

[Hibbyradge]

I’m not sure that explains a Labour vote collapse to under 10%.
We were told Starmer taking the party to the Right was necessary to win over Tory voters.
The truth is large swathes of England are never voting for Labour.
If swing voters were coming Starmers way, why not campaign hard to win in North Shropshire?

I think it does explain it.

The Liberals were the best chance to get defeat the Tory candidate so Labour voters put their weight behind them too, exactly as I would have done, and have in the past.

I think Labour central office knew that too which is why they didn't invest in the campaign.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Does nobody remember the coalition days with the tories?
Have a real dislike for the lib dems. At least you know what your getting if you vote tory but they tadgers would sell their granny and everything they 'believe' in for their shot at power. Tory lite pricks

[Pretty Boy]

Does nobody remember the coalition days with the tories?
Have a real dislike for the lib dems. At least you know what your getting if you vote tory but they tadgers would sell their granny and everything they 'believe' in for their shot at power. Tory lite pricks

Yep.

Always pleasing to see Johnson get a bloody nose but the party that facilitated austerity and abandoned their 'principles' for a shot at power taking the seat is hardly a cause for massive celebration.

I would happily place a bet on that seat going back to blue in the next general election. It was a warning message to the PM from his core vote.

[Glory Lurker]

One of the Lib Dem attack lines was that the voters in that constituency were being taken for granted while oop north is getting attention with levelling up. So, they were defending the toriest of tories. A seat that had been blue for 200 years, and strongly Leave. The Lib dems managing to ingratiate themselves in there tells you all you need to know about those Tory-enablers. It's what they do.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/20/jewish-woman-accused-antisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

The ridiculousness of the anti semitism witch hunt on full show.

[He's here!]

Yep.

Always pleasing to see Johnson get a bloody nose but the party that facilitated austerity and abandoned their 'principles' for a shot at power taking the seat is hardly a cause for massive celebration.

I would happily place a bet on that seat going back to blue in the next general election. It was a warning message to the PM from his core vote.

Absolutely. A low-risk protest from those who usually vote Tory.

If anything, the paltry Labour vote in the by-election says more about Starmer's leadership than Johnston's. Sure, Labour are never going to win there but as hibsbollah points out Starmer was supposed to appeal to Tory voters who would never have voted for Corbyn. I initially had quite high hopes that he would ultimately do so, but the more I see and hear of him you just know he'll never be PM.

[Hibbyradge]

Absolutely. A low-risk protest from those who usually vote Tory.

If anything, the paltry Labour vote in the by-election says more about Starmer's leadership than Johnston's. Sure, Labour are never going to win there but as hibsbollah points out Starmer was supposed to appeal to Tory voters who would never have voted for Corbyn. I initially had quite high hopes that he would ultimately do so, but the more I see and hear of him you just know he'll never be PM.

The Tories lost a seat they've held for 200 years and yet it was a reflection on Starmer not Johnson.

That really does take the biscuit.

[Kato]

Absolutely. A low-risk protest from those who usually vote Tory.

If anything, the paltry Labour vote in the by-election says more about Starmer's leadership than Johnston's. Sure, Labour are never going to win there but as hibsbollah points out Starmer was supposed to appeal to Tory voters who would never have voted for Corbyn. I initially had quite high hopes that he would ultimately do so, but the more I see and hear of him you just know he'll never be PM. No notion of tactical voting?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Kato]

The Tories lost a seat they've held for 200 years and yet it was a reflection on Starmer not Johnson.

That really does take the biscuit.A Blue Riband?

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[He's here!]

I’m not sure that explains a Labour vote collapse to under 10%.
We were told Starmer taking the party to the Right was necessary to win over Tory voters.
The truth is large swathes of England are never voting for Labour.
If swing voters were coming Starmers way, why not campaign hard to win in North Shropshire?

I'm yet to see anything significant that Starmer has 'campaigned hard' on in terms of what Labour can offer. He seems to be hoping the ongoing Tory leaks will do his job for him.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm yet to see anything significant that Starmer has 'campaigned hard' on in terms of what Labour can offer. He seems to be hoping the ongoing Tory leaks will do his job for him.

And they are.

The opposition don't need to be campaigning on anything until there's an election in the offing. They're still well ahead in the polls so doing ok at this stage.

[Northernhibee]

And they are.

The opposition don't need to be campaigning on anything until there's an election in the offing. They're still well ahead in the polls so doing ok at this stage.

Tory vote in Wales collapsing, thirteen points behind Labour in the usually Tory friendly YouGov polls.

Appreciate that Wales isn't happy pickings for Tories but hopefully this begins to spread further.

[He's here!]

And they are.

The opposition don't need to be campaigning on anything until there's an election in the offing. They're still well ahead in the polls so doing ok at this stage.

Hopefully you're right as a strong Labour is probably the best hope of blunting the SNP's dominance in Scotland. I thought Starmer started OK, very strong on anti-Semitism and clearing away most of the Corbyn devotees, but since then I've become increasingly unclear about what he actually stands for. A lot of the red wall voters who switched to the Tories associated him strongly with the mind-numbing delays to Brexit so he's got work to do there.

[lapsedhibee]

Hopefully you're right as a strong Labour is probably the best hope of blunting the SNP's dominance in Scotland. I thought Starmer started OK, very strong on anti-Semitism and clearing away most of the Corbyn devotees, but since then I've become increasingly unclear about what he actually stands for. A lot of the red wall voters who switched to the Tories associated him strongly with the mind-numbing delays to Brexit so he's got work to do there.

If only there had been more fearless MPs prepared, like Duncan Smith, to stand up in Parliament and declare that there was no need to devote any time to scrutinising plans masterminded by Johnson and Frost.

[lucky]

Opposition parties never win elections sitting government lose them. Stammer could be the Pele of politics but it counts for nothing if governing party act competent. Boris is losing to Stammer wins. But on a Scottish independence angle it’s better for the SNP if Boris remains and continues to muck up.

[Hibbyradge]

Hopefully you're right as a strong Labour is probably the best hope of blunting the SNP's dominance in Scotland. I thought Starmer started OK, very strong on anti-Semitism and clearing away most of the Corbyn devotees, but since then I've become increasingly unclear about what he actually stands for. A lot of the red wall voters who switched to the Tories associated him strongly with the mind-numbing delays to Brexit so he's got work to do there.

As soon as a political party declares a policy, it allows their opponents to deflect the attention from them by attacking it.

Whatever Labour say, the Tories will scream "Where will the money come from", "Massive tax rises" "Same old Marxists" etc. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it will be heard and believed so the less time you give them, the better.

The time to clarify your intentions is when your manifesto is launched. Until then, attack the government and let them dig their own holes.

[Crunchie]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/20/jewish-woman-accused-antisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

The ridiculousness of the anti semitism witch hunt on full show.
It's rife throughout grass roots Labour and the unions, nothing ridiculous about it.