The future of the Labour Party

[Fife-Hibee]

Yvette Cooper should be leader. She seems to have a better handle on the situation than Corbyn.

What handle is that? What difference will she make if she becomes leader? In a party with the same backbenchers and an EU that simply won't budge on where they stand.

[hibsbollah]

Yvette Cooper should be leader. She seems to have a better handle on the situation than Corbyn.

That's an interesting view. I like Yvette, but her approval rating is 17% against Corbyns 29% according to yougov, since we since to be talking polls so much at the moment. As discussed elsewhere, as long as the Labour leader follows the current manifesto it doesn't really bother me who it is.

[ronaldo7]

Different sources give different figures but that’s not the point.

It’s all about the here and now and it’s grim for youngsters and first time buyers. Radical action is needed now at a national level and only Labour can deliver on housing.

I admire what the SNP have done but it isn’t enough. It will only get worse so they should make way for a party that has the interests of the many at the heart of everything it does.

Did you get that line from James Kelly. :greengrin

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-best-answer-ever/

[Colr]

That's an interesting view. I like Yvette, but her approval rating is 17% against Corbyns 29% according to yougov, since we since to be talking polls so much at the moment. As discussed elsewhere, as long as the Labour leader follows the current manifesto it doesn't really bother me who it is.

Yeh, but Corbyn dissaproval rating is 50% making him the most unpopular as well.

[Pete]

Tony Blair led the tories by 20+ points when Major was in trouble. I would have thought someone as electable as Corbyn would be doing better given that Major was never in the trouble May is in just now.


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Or....

Regardless of who is in government, isn’t it remarkable that an opposition that has seen an unprecedented level of personal attacks, smear campaigns and downright lies and misrepresentations against it is doing so well? Given the amount of absolute idiots out there who believe anything they read and that outlets like the BBC are impartial, their message must be getting though to a sizeable amount of people somehow.

[Pete]

Labour were "neck and neck" with the tories in 2015 according to the polls. :rolleyes:

If you consider that Labour were miles behind in the polls a short time before the 2017 general election, we can safely come to one conclusion about polls and their significance.

[Hibrandenburg]

Corbyn now backing a vote on a 2nd referendum. An absolute hypocrit of a man who is prepared to do/say anything to become PM. Plan "A" to force a general election by calling a vote of no confidence in the government whilst taking a pro Brexit stance goes tits up so plan "B" is to tap into the anti Brexit vote by potentially supporting a 2nd referendum. The man has no plan other than going whichever way the wind blows.

[hibsbollah]

Excellent news. If you support Labour and want another crack at reversing Brexit ,id say they've played it fairly well.

[Hibrandenburg]

Excellent news. If you support Labour and want another crack at reversing Brexit ,id say they've played it fairly well.

I want the UK to remain and I've never voted anything other than Labour in my puff but couldn't tick the box for this buffoon. Not that that matters as due to the 15 year residency restriction I can no longer vote in UK elections.

[Hibbyradge]

Excellent news. If you support Labour and want another crack at reversing Brexit ,id say they've played it fairly well.

I read the amendment this morning and my anxiety levels dropped a little bit.

Without saying that Labour wants to remain in the EU, I think the chance of stopping Brexit has increased a fraction.

What eventually happens is anyone's guess, but it does look like Labour, by having an ambiguous position on Brexit, they have managed to avoid setting themselves up as a target for the Tories.

As a result, there has been nothing for May to circle wagons about so her party has inevitably turned on itself.

If it has been done deliberately, then I agree, well played.

If it's just been a fortunate outcome of some bumbling procrastination, then I forgive them.

I think the People's Vote and remain campaigners have done a sterling job so far, too.

Brexit has affected me a great deal, and there have been times that I've been unable to listen, read or watch commentary, so forgive me if I've misinterpreted the situation.

However, as it stands, Labour are closer to getting a Hibbyradge vote in Outer York.

[Ozyhibby]

Wait and see if Corbyn backs it first. Good chance he won’t.


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[Hibbyradge]

Wait and see if Corbyn backs it first. Good chance he won’t.


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Indeed.




What eventually happens is anyone's guess ...

[hibsbollah]

I read the amendment this morning and my anxiety levels dropped a little bit.

Without saying that Labour wants to remain in the EU, I think the chance of stopping Brexit has increased a fraction.

What eventually happens is anyone's guess, but it does look like Labour, by having an ambiguous position on Brexit, they have managed to avoid setting themselves up as a target for the Tories.

As a result, there has been nothing for May to circle wagons about so her party has inevitably turned on itself.

If it has been done deliberately, then I agree, well played.

If it's just been a fortunate outcome of some bumbling procrastination, then I forgive them.

I think the People's Vote and remain campaigners have done a sterling job so far, too.

Brexit has affected me a great deal, and there have been times that I've been unable to listen, read or watch commentary, so forgive me if I've misinterpreted the situation.

However, as it stands, Labour are closer to getting a Hibbyradge vote in Outer York.

I think it shows a degree of intelligence and class that you have shifted your position based on events:aok:

[Hibbyradge]

I think it shows a degree of intelligence and class that you have shifted your position based on events:aok:

A degree of intelligence?

Patronising twat :faf:

[hibsbollah]

A degree of intelligence?

Patronising twat :faf:

Not my intention:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn now backing a vote on a 2nd referendum. An absolute hypocrit of a man who is prepared to do/say anything to become PM. Plan "A" to force a general election by calling a vote of no confidence in the government whilst taking a pro Brexit stance goes tits up so plan "B" is to tap into the anti Brexit vote by potentially supporting a 2nd referendum. The man has no plan other than going whichever way the wind blows.

The Lab amendment does not back a 2nd referendum and they are making no commitment to whip their MPs to vote for one. It's just a further restatement of their vague policy.

I think if the 2nd vote on May's deal fails (likely), then she will call a panic snap election. If the pro-remain part of Labour can get a ref2 into their manifesto in some form, eg. we renegotiate with the EU and then put the result vs remain in a ref2, then we are in business. Actually that's about the only route to remain I can see. There just isn't the support in parliament to get a ref2 through atm.

A hung parliament where a Lab minority needs Lib and SNP votes would be ideal.

[hibsbollah]

The Lab amendment is just a further restatement of their vague policy.


It is clearly far more than that. Labour has now committed themselves to supporting a people's vote. I would imagine that Corbyn will now call a free vote rather than directing his MPs how to vote via the chief whip, as often happens on matters of conscience.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Lab amendment does not back a 2nd referendum and they are making no commitment to whip their MPs to vote for one. It's just a further restatement of their vague policy.

I think if the 2nd vote on May's deal fails (likely), then she will call a panic snap election. If the pro-remain part of Labour can get a ref2 into their manifesto in some form, eg. we renegotiate with the EU and then put the result vs remain in a ref2, then we are in business. Actually that's about the only route to remain I can see. There just isn't the support in parliament to get a ref2 through atm.

A hung parliament where a Lab minority needs Lib and SNP votes would be ideal.

World class fence sitting on his part with party interests put before the country's. The only way the EU would renegotiate the deal with a new government is if the UK would be prepared to soften the demands for restrictions on free movement and what chance would a deal that's softer on EU free movement have of passing through the house in the current climate? If it does come to another snap election he'll quickly find he can't eat his cake and have it.

[JeMeSouviens]

It is clearly far more than that. Labour has now committed themselves to supporting a people's vote. I would imagine that Corbyn will now call a free vote rather than directing his MPs how to vote via the chief whip, as often happens on matters of conscience.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-labour-not-suddenly-swung-13890310

btw, a free vote has absolutely no chance of delivering ref2 unless the alternative is May pushing no deal through as gov policy.

[Hibrandenburg]

It is clearly far more than that. Labour has now committed themselves to supporting a people's vote. I would imagine that Corbyn will now call a free vote rather than directing his MPs how to vote via the chief whip, as often happens on matters of conscience.

If he'd done that prior to try and sneak in a general election then he might have retained some credibility as a leader, as it stands he's bumbling from one position to the other.

[Hibbyradge]

Not my intention:greengrin

Yikes!

I'd hate to be on the receiving end if you were meaning it! :worried:

[JeMeSouviens]

World class fence sitting on his part with party interests put before the country's. The only way the EU would renegotiate the deal with a new government is if the UK would be prepared to soften the demands for restrictions on free movement and what chance would a deal that's softer on EU free movement have of passing through the house in the current climate? If it does come to another snap election he'll quickly find he can't eat his cake and have it.

Well he won't be in a position to renegotiate unless he can form a govt, in which case he should have a chance of getting it through the house, especially if it's in their manifesto.

It might well turn out, as Radge alludes to above, that Labour's "give them enough rope" strategy will pay off for remainers in the end. However, I'm almost certain it will have been due to stalling and prevarication rather than brilliant strategy.

[hibsbollah]

If he'd done that prior to try and sneak in a general election then he might have retained some credibility as a leader, as it stands he's bumbling from one position to the other.

:confused: Calling for a general election initially was always part of the policy agreed at party conference. It's got democratic legitimacy and it's consistent.

[Fife-Hibee]

How many decades have Labour been saying this now? :confused:

https://i.ibb.co/1bfrLVM/yeahright.png





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxoKUmJW0AI5Xij.jpg

https://gscott123.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/proxy-duckduckgo-com.jpg

[Hibrandenburg]

It is clearly far more than that. Labour has now committed themselves to supporting a people's vote. I would imagine that Corbyn will now call a free vote rather than directing his MPs how to vote via the chief whip, as often happens on matters of conscience.

Seems like Jeremy doesn't support a people's vote after all. A cross party group have now cancelled a proposed amendment because Corbyn is refusing to back it and it therefore has no chance of getting through the house. Looks like he's built himself a sofa on that fence.

[hibsbollah]

Seems like Jeremy doesn't support a people's vote after all. A cross party group have now cancelled a proposed amendment because Corbyn is refusing to back it and it therefore has no chance of getting through the house. Looks like he's built himself a sofa on that fence.

Berger Umunna and Wollaston have pulled their cross party amendment because they don't think they have the parliamentary numbers.

[Hibrandenburg]

Berger Umunna and Wollaston have pulled their cross party amendment because they don't think they have the parliamentary numbers.

That's not exactly what they said just now on Sky News. They said it had no chance if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't give the amendment his backing. I'm guessing they've spoken to him before feeling the need to make a press statement.

[hibsbollah]

That's not exactly what they said just now on Sky News. They said it had no chance if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't give the amendment his backing. I'm guessing they've spoken to him before feeling the need to make a press statement.

I'd disagree with that analysis. It has no chance YET. And it will also depend on the number of Tory backbenchers supporting it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd disagree with that analysis. It has no chance YET. And it will also depend on the number of Tory backbenchers supporting it.

I think I said this before but I think we are headed toward an art 50 extension for a snap election where the Tories will paint themselves as "defenders of Brexit" and Labour will argue for a Brexit that they renegotiate and (hopefully) will put to a ref2.

[lapsedhibee]

I think I said this before but I think we are headed toward an art 50 extension for a snap election where the Tories will paint themselves as "defenders of Brexit" and Labour will argue for a Brexit that they renegotiate and (hopefully) will put to a ref2.
How can there be a snap election when TM has promised her party that she will step down before another election (hasn't she)?

[JeMeSouviens]

How can there be a snap election when TM has promised her party that she will step down before another election (hasn't she)?

May's road to ruin is paved with broken promises. :wink:

She survived her confidence vote so they can't get rid of her. In any case there is no time to replace her. She will plead exceptional times require exceptional measures.

[Fife-Hibee]

How can there be a snap election when TM has promised her party that she will step down before another election (hasn't she)?

Tories have a habit of saying they'll resign without actually doing so. Think Ruth and Mundell.

[lapsedhibee]

Tories have a habit of saying they'll resign without actually doing so. Think Ruth and Mundell.

Yes but that's more lying to riffraff like electors and constituents, isn't it? May would be lying to their toffships in her own gang.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yes but that's more lying to riffraff like electors and constituents, isn't it? May would be lying to their toffships in her own gang.

I'm pretty sure she's already lied to them a multitude of times. But she'll whip them into line whenever she needs to and they'll do as they're told like good loyalist dogs. Much like those who vote for them.

[WhileTheChief..]

If there is a 2nd vote and the result is to Leave, even on a no deal basis, will the SNP and other Remainers accept the result and back the government?

Will any of you then also accept the result? If not, what would it take?

[Fife-Hibee]

If there is a 2nd vote and the result is to Leave, even on a no deal basis, will the SNP and other Remainers accept the result and back the government?

Will any of you then also accept the result? If not, what would it take?

If there is a 2nd vote and the result is to leave but the result in Scotland is even stronger towards remain, will any of you accept that Scotland doesn't want to go in the same direction as a country that clearly has very different political interests to our own?

[WhileTheChief..]

We will have Indy ref2 to answer that question.

There was a bit on Newsnight last week from Barrow and Skegness I think. They voted about 76% to leave.

I’m just asking, that for a moment, you consider how you would feel if you were one of them?

They have had 2 years of people telling them they are wrong and trying to change the outcome of the vote.

Imagine it had been the other way around? Or if we had voted 52% in favour of Indy but years later folk were telling us to vote again?

I think people in Scotland don’t fully understand the strength of feeling there is about this down south.

My gut feeling is that if there’s another vote then Leave will win by an even greater margin.

[Fife-Hibee]

We will have Indy ref2 to answer that question.

There was a bit on Newsnight last week from Barrow and Skegness I think. They voted about 76% to leave.

I’m just asking, that for a moment, you consider how you would feel if you were one of them?

They have had 2 years of people telling them they are wrong and trying to change the outcome of the vote.

Imagine it had been the other way around? Or if we had voted 52% in favour of Indy but years later folk were telling us to vote again?

I think people in Scotland don’t fully understand the strength of feeling there is about this down south.

My gut feeling is that if there’s another vote then Leave will win by an even greater margin.

I understand the strength of feeling down there. But the strength of feeling up here is quite different. But how we feel about it doesn't seem to matter. Besides, it's not just about how we feel about it. It's the very real damage that it will do to the Scottish economy.

I personally couldn't care less how people down there feel about it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I understand the strength of feeling down there. But the strength of feeling up here is quite different. But how we feel about it doesn't seem to matter. Besides, it's not just about how we feel about it. It's the very real damage that it will do to the Scottish economy.

I personally couldn't care less how people down there feel about it.

You are making a false differentiation though.

Many, many people in Scotland voted for Brexit, including Nats.

Many, many people in England voted for Remain.

This isn’t an England telling Scotland what to do thing (though I get why you might want to present it as that)

[Fife-Hibee]

You are making a false differentiation though.

Many, many people in Scotland voted for Brexit, including Nats.

Many, many people in England voted for Remain.

This isn’t an England telling Scotland what to do thing (though I get why you might want to present it as that)

What difference does it make? The reality is, something is about to happen that is going to be hugely damaging to Scotland's economy, despite it being rejected by the majority here.

Why should we have something enforced on us that we know is going to be hugely damaging, because of how a majority of those who voted in another country "feel"?

Those defending our policial and economic unity with a country that doesn't share the same political and economic interests we do, don't have a foot to stand on anymore. But continue to persist regardless.

[Mibbes Aye]

What difference does it make? The reality is, something is about to happen that is going to be hugely damaging to Scotland's economy, despite it being rejected by the majority here.

Why should we have something enforced on us that we know is going to be hugely damaging, because of how a majority of those who voted in another country "feel"?

Those defending our policial and economic unity with a country that doesn't share the same political and economic interests we do, don't have a foot to stand on anymore. But continue to persist regardless.

When you talk about ‘we’ are you recognising that more than a million Scots voted to leave?

Are they “we” because I don’t think those million-plus Scots identify with you?

I voted to remain. More than 13 million people in England did too.

This isn’t an “Us and Them” story, however you try and spin it.

[JeMeSouviens]

We will have Indy ref2 to answer that question.

There was a bit on Newsnight last week from Barrow and Skegness I think. They voted about 76% to leave.

I’m just asking, that for a moment, you consider how you would feel if you were one of them?

They have had 2 years of people telling them they are wrong and trying to change the outcome of the vote.

Imagine it had been the other way around? Or if we had voted 52% in favour of Indy but years later folk were telling us to vote again?

I think people in Scotland don’t fully understand the strength of feeling there is about this down south.

My gut feeling is that if there’s another vote then Leave will win by an even greater margin.

In 1979 we voted 52-48 for a Scottish parliament. Not only did we not get one, we didn't even get to vote again until 1997!

[Fife-Hibee]

When you talk about ‘we’ are you recognising that more than a million Scots voted to leave?

Are they “we” because I don’t think those million-plus Scots identify with you?

I voted to remain. More than 13 million people in England did too.

This isn’t an “Us and Them” story, however you try and spin it.

But it's an "Us and Them" story with the EU. Even although Scotland rejected such a divide?

How many people in England voted to remain is utterly irrelevant now, because they were a minority in their own country. So i'm not sure why you feel the need to point out something that won't change anything whatsoever.

[Mibbes Aye]

But it's an "Us and Them" story with the EU. Even although Scotland rejected such a divide?

How many people in England voted to remain is utterly irrelevant now, because they were a minority in their own country. So i'm not sure why you feel the need to point out something that won't change anything whatsoever.

It’s false, is why.

The reason a majority of Scots voted for Remain is nothing to do with one single argument and the same is true in England.

The reasons people voted the way they did was based on a number of factors and is complex. No doubt many Scots voted for Leave because they had the same fears about immigration as some people in England and felt a desire to have greater control over our borders.

No doubt many Scots voted Remain because they believe in the benefits of closer ties with other nations, whether through freedom of movement or trade, or shared values enshrined in legislation, as did English voters.

This is not an England-Scotland thing, however much you want it to be.

These same issues are talking points in any country in Europe I suggest, whether they are part of a union, the European Union or whatever.

[weecounty hibby]

If there is a 2nd vote and the result is to Leave, even on a no deal basis, will the SNP and other Remainers accept the result and back the government?

Will any of you then also accept the result? If not, what would it take?
If there was a second referendum, and after all the evidence of what that would mean, not just the bull**** fed to us last time, is in front of the electorate and still leave was the outcome then sadly I would accept it. I would still believe it was wrong but would accept it. The last referendum was based on bull**** and centuries old empire rhetoric.

[weecounty hibby]

We will have Indy ref2 to answer that question.

There was a bit on Newsnight last week from Barrow and Skegness I think. They voted about 76% to leave.

I’m just asking, that for a moment, you consider how you would feel if you were one of them?

They have had 2 years of people telling them they are wrong and trying to change the outcome of the vote.

Imagine it had been the other way around? Or if we had voted 52% in favour of Indy but years later folk were telling us to vote again?

I think people in Scotland don’t fully understand the strength of feeling there is about this down south.

My gut feeling is that if there’s another vote then Leave will win by an even greater margin.

But what if after seeing all of the real evidence then that 76% is now actually down to say 50%. How do you think that other 26% feel. This will of the people stuff being trotted out is rubbish. The will of the people now, at this moment in time should be tested. I know of a few leavers who have now changed their minds, I haven't spoken to anyone who voted remain who now has

[WhileTheChief..]

In 1979 we voted 52-48 for a Scottish parliament. Not only did we not get one, we didn't even get to vote again until 1997!

So you’ll understand how those who voted Leave feel then!

How on earth do we find common ground in the future and avoid being labelled Yes / No, Remain / Leave for ever more?

[WhileTheChief..]

But what if after seeing all of the real evidence then that 76% is now actually down to say 50%. How do you think that other 26% feel. This will of the people stuff being trotted out is rubbish. The will of the people now, at this moment in time should be tested. I know of a few leavers who have now changed their minds, I haven't spoken to anyone who voted remain who now has

I know, I get it, I just don’t have the answer.

My hope, and it’s maybe blind optimism, is that in the end, everything will work out and we’ll be just fine whatever happens.

[lapsedhibee]

In 1979 we voted 52-48 for a Scottish parliament. Not only did we not get one, we didn't even get to vote again until 1997!

Feel passionately that the timing of follow-up referendumses should be based on this same principle, of transposing the last two numbers of the year. Roll on indyref2 in 2041 and the next EUref in 2061. :agree:

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s false, is why.

The reason a majority of Scots voted for Remain is nothing to do with one single argument and the same is true in England.

The reasons people voted the way they did was based on a number of factors and is complex. No doubt many Scots voted for Leave because they had the same fears about immigration as some people in England and felt a desire to have greater control over our borders.

No doubt many Scots voted Remain because they believe in the benefits of closer ties with other nations, whether through freedom of movement or trade, or shared values enshrined in legislation, as did English voters.

This is not an England-Scotland thing, however much you want it to be.

These same issues are talking points in any country in Europe I suggest, whether they are part of a union, the European Union or whatever.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about what peoples personal reasons were for voting one way or another, because we obviously don't know what each individual persons reasons were.

I will however leave you with these points:

Scotland's migration needs are very different to that of Englands. While their population has swelled with an influx of immigrants, Scotlands population has remained relatively stagnant. In fact, it has only increased by about 10% since the 1930's. With an aging population and many young Scots opting for warmer climates and bigger job opportunities elsewhere, skill gaps need to be filled. Particularly those that more elderly people rely on, such as doctors, nurses and carers. Something that is going to be next to impossible without free movement.

Scotland's economic needs are different. With a greater population age growth, there's greater pressure on state welfare. In order to support the system, we need a more robust system of taxation. One that is going to look quite different to the tax haven Luxembourg model that England are heading towards.

Scotland's political needs are different. We don't vote tory. Because our economy is different and our needs are different, we reject politics that aren't suitable for this country and the people living here. We opt for a more progressive approach to the way we do things, because the needs of our population call for that.

Scotland's climate priorities are different. We now power our entire country via renewable energy on our mission to future proof a healthy climate for future generations living here. The UK Government has different ideas. Nuclear power is more profitable for the shareholders, as is shale gas, which is why they're sticking dynamite in the ground and causing earth quakes while running the risk of contaminating water supplies. All so the people living there can pay a premium for their energy.

So while you're the one doing the spinning, trying to convince yourself and others that Scotland and England are the same country that should be dragged in the same direction. I'll use facts and logic to keep making the argument as to why the UK can no longer work for Scotland and our countries interests.

[Pretty Boy]

One thing we need to accept is there is no return to the status quo. A Pandoras Box has been opened and 2nd referendums on either issue won't close that.

We're at a stage now where leave/remain and yes/no are going to dominate the political discussion and influence voting behaviour in the UK as a whole and Scotland specifically for an extended period of time.

[marinello59]

One thing we need to accept is there is no return to the status quo. A Pandoras Box has been opened and 2nd referendums on either issue won't close that.

We're at a stage now where leave/remain and yes/no are going to dominate the political discussion and influence voting behaviour in the UK as a whole and Scotland specifically for an extended period of time.

What a depressing thought.

[Fife-Hibee]

What a depressing thought.

That's they'll be no return to the status quo?

Because it was so brilliant before.

[marinello59]

That's they'll be no return to the status quo?

Because it was so brilliant before.

I was commenting on PB’s last paragraph.

[Ozyhibby]

What a depressing thought.

It’s not really. I think it’s very healthy for a country to be allowed to debate its future direction the way we have done for the last few years.
The two party system is unlikely to survive this in London and in Edinburgh, the demise of the Scottish Labour Party (with all the corruption that went with it) has been good for politics up here.



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[James310]

Scotland's political needs are different. We don't vote tory. Because our economy is different and our needs are different, we reject politics that aren't suitable for this country and the people living here. We opt for a more progressive approach to the way we do things, because the needs of our population call for that.


Not sure how you can call an increase in votes as a rejection of something, if more people vote for something or someone than the last time it's not a rejection it's an endorsement surely? I am referring to the last General election results.

[Fife-Hibee]

Not sure how you can call an increase in votes as a rejection of something, if more people vote for something or someone than the last time it's not a rejection it's an endorsement surely? I am referring to the last General election results.

Are you suggesting that the increase in tory votes at the last election came from a sudden appetite from the Scottish electorate for tory policies in Scotland? Or might it have been due to something else?

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s not really. I think it’s very healthy for a country to be allowed to debate its future direction the way we have done for the last few years.
The two party system is unlikely to survive this in London and in Edinburgh, the demise of the Scottish Labour Party (with all the corruption that went with it) has been good for politics up here.



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I agree. It has dragged more young people than ever in Scotland into politics. You can go to college, university or talk to your young work collegues now about politics, where as not so long ago, you'd have been considered weird for bringing the subject up.

[marinello59]

It’s not really. I think it’s very healthy for a country to be allowed to debate its future direction the way we have done for the last few years.
The two party system is unlikely to survive this in London and in Edinburgh, the demise of the Scottish Labour Party (with all the corruption that went with it) has been good for politics up here.



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Brexit has paralysed our political system and to a lesser extent the Independence debate has done the same in Scotland. Concentrating endlessly on what method of Goverment we should have whilst neglecting the issues to be dealt with is depressing.
As an aside , in Scotland we swapped one party totally dominating Scottish politics for another doing the same thing. How is that healthier?

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree. It has dragged more young people than ever in Scotland into politics. You can go to college, university or talk to your young work collegues now about politics, where as not so long ago, you'd have been considered weird for bringing the subject up.

Students and universities have been a breeding ground for political activism for decades.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about what peoples personal reasons were for voting one way or another, because we obviously don't know what each individual persons reasons were.

I will however leave you with these points:

Scotland's migration needs are very different to that of Englands. While their population has swelled with an influx of immigrants, Scotlands population has remained relatively stagnant. In fact, it has only increased by about 10% since the 1930's. With an aging population and many young Scots opting for warmer climates and bigger job opportunities elsewhere, skill gaps need to be filled. Particularly those that more elderly people rely on, such as doctors, nurses and carers. Something that is going to be next to impossible without free movement.

Scotland's economic needs are different. With a greater population age growth, there's greater pressure on state welfare. In order to support the system, we need a more robust system of taxation. One that is going to look quite different to the tax haven Luxembourg model that England are heading towards.

Scotland's political needs are different. We don't vote tory. Because our economy is different and our needs are different, we reject politics that aren't suitable for this country and the people living here. We opt for a more progressive approach to the way we do things, because the needs of our population call for that.

Scotland's climate priorities are different. We now power our entire country via renewable energy on our mission to future proof a healthy climate for future generations living here. The UK Government has different ideas. Nuclear power is more profitable for the shareholders, as is shale gas, which is why they're sticking dynamite in the ground and causing earth quakes while running the risk of contaminating water supplies. All so the people living there can pay a premium for their energy.

So while you're the one doing the spinning, trying to convince yourself and others that Scotland and England are the same country that should be dragged in the same direction. I'll use facts and logic to keep making the argument as to why the UK can no longer work for Scotland and our countries interests.

I'm doing no such thing.

I'm saying it is false to differentiate between 'Scotland' and 'England' with regard to Brexit.

The facts are clear in this regard - there are lots of people in Scotland and England who want the same thing. There are lots of people in Scotland and England who want a different thing.

Both camps I imagine think they voted for what was best in their interests.

Making it out to be "England imposing Brexit on Scotland" is a bit tawdry.

[Mibbes Aye]

Brexit has paralysed our political system and to a lesser extent the Independence debate has done the same in Scotland. Concentrating endlessly on what method of Goverment we should have whilst neglecting the issues to be dealt with is depressing.
As an aside , in Scotland we swapped one party totally dominating Scottish politics for another doing the same thing. How is that healthier?

:agree: a million per cent

The things that really matter in our lives are the things that affect us every day and affect our parents, grandparents, children and grandchildren.

That's schools, health care, social care, the state of our roads, whether our bins get picked up, how crime and anti-social behaviour is dealt with etc etc etc

That's all local, let alone national.

[James310]

Are you suggesting that the increase in tory votes at the last election came from a sudden appetite from the Scottish electorate for tory policies in Scotland? Or might it have been due to something else?

I have no idea, but if something gets more votes than before, be it a political party or a song on X factor it's generally seen as an endorsement not a rejection.

What do you think it was down to?

[Fife-Hibee]

Brexit has paralysed our political system and to a lesser extent the Independence debate has done the same in Scotland. Concentrating endlessly on what method of Goverment we should have whilst neglecting the issues to be dealt with is depressing.
As an aside , in Scotland we swapped one party totally dominating Scottish politics for another doing the same thing. How is that healthier?

I disagree. Issues are far from being "neglected" in Scotland. We are by far the most socially conscious part of the UK. As much as you may not like it, the method of government when it comes to dealing with these issues is important. Also the tools the government is given to work with, so they can actually govern effectively to tackle these issues is equally as important.

[Fife-Hibee]

I have no idea, but if something gets more votes than before, be it a political party or a song on X factor it's generally seen as an endorsement not a rejection.

What do you think it was down to?

I don't know how it works on X Factor as I don't silly myself watching that. However, in politics, it's about winning individual constituencies in which the SNP were only 1 seat shy of winning 3 times as many as the tories did. I'll happily take that as a clear endorsement in Scotland.

That was despite the tories positioning themselves as the "vote for the union".

[James310]

I don't know how it works on X Factor as I don't silly myself watching that. However, in politics, it's about winning individual constituencies in which the SNP were only 1 seat shy of winning 3 times as many as the tories did. I'll happily take that as a clear endorsement in Scotland.

That was despite the tories positioning themselves as the "vote for the union".

That's the system we operate in so that's fair enough, but a look behind the number of seats a party wins and looking at the actual votes they received show a different picture to the one you suggested.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's the system we operate in so that's fair enough, but a look behind the number of seats a party wins and looking at the actual votes they received show a different picture to the one you suggested.

It shows the tories won 28.6% of the common vote. Quite a bit shy of the 55.3% they were claiming to represent.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree: a million per cent

The things that really matter in our lives are the things that affect us every day and affect our parents, grandparents, children and grandchildren.

That's schools, health care, social care, the state of our roads, whether our bins get picked up, how crime and anti-social behaviour is dealt with etc etc etc

That's all local, let alone national.

And some of us believe we can deliver those services better with a system of government that is closer to the people it serves. That’s politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

And some of us believe we can deliver those services better with a system of government that is closer to the people it serves. That’s politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. Government matters at both national and local levels. Issues won't be addressed until we have a system in place that actually allows us to address them.

[James310]

It shows the tories won 28.6% of the common vote. Quite a bit shy of the 55.3% they were claiming to represent.

Where they? It's also shows under 1 million voted for a party supporting Independance while 1.6 million voted for parties opposing Independance. Quite significantly more and maybe a rejection of something, wonder what though.

[Mibbes Aye]

And some of us believe we can deliver those services better with a system of government that is closer to the people it serves. That’s politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree.

I've said before on here, the levels of government that would work best are something that operates at a Lothian level, perhaps SE Scotland, perhaps including Fife, maybe not. That's about the right level to be close to the people but still have critical mass.

Beneath that you can have some form of representative democracy at a real community level.

What's right for Corstorphine isn't right for Caithness and vice versa. No point forcing the issue, which makes the whole Scottish independence thing irrational to me.

There is a need for some sort of overarching legislative or regulatory framework, but whether that's Westminster or Brussels I'm pragmatic.

[Fife-Hibee]

Where they? It's also shows under 1 million voted for a party supporting Independance while 1.6 million voted for parties opposing Independance. Quite significantly more.

I think it was pretty clear that they were, or were you not paying attention? Perhaps distracted by X Factor? :wink:

It's not surprising really, independence isn't limited to a political party. In fact, I don't really recall them mentioning independence at all leading up to the general election. The SNP were happy to talk policy, the tories were happy to avoid talking about policy (no surprise really) while putting all of their focus on "stopping independence".

They played on emotions, rather than policial engagement. Which is perfectly fine. There's nothing to stop them from doing so. However, it never really lasts. People are forced to become more engaged when they start feeling the negative impacts on their personal lives.

[Fife-Hibee]

I agree.

I've said before on here, the levels of government that would work best are something that operates at a Lothian level, perhaps SE Scotland, perhaps including Fife, maybe not. That's about the right level to be close to the people but still have critical mass.

Beneath that you can have some form of representative democracy at a real community level.

What's right for Corstorphine isn't right for Caithness and vice versa. No point forcing the issue, which makes the whole Scottish independence thing irrational to me.

There is a need for some sort of overarching legislative or regulatory framework, but whether that's Westminster or Brussels I'm pragmatic.


I don't disagree with that. But the more we start dividing things up this way, the more money it's going to cost for all of these extra local government subsets. It's not as simple as "it looks good, lets implement it". It has to be financially viable and actually function the way it's intended to in the real world. It also adds additional elements of complexity and the more complexity there is, the more potential there is for things to go wrong.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't disagree with that. But the more we start dividing things up this way, the more money it's going to cost for all of these extra local government subsets. It's not as simple as "it looks good, lets implement it". It has to be financially viable and actually function the way it's intended to in the real world. It also adds additional elements of complexity and the more complexity there is, the more potential there is for things to go wrong.

I'm not suggesting we add subsets. I'm talking about removing the need for local authorities and for Holyrood altogether.

I have no expectation of this being accepted by many, if any, but democracy and public services should serve their people.

To my mind, what's most pragmatic is something very local, that then sits within the mass I described previously, because that seems rational.

Whether that sits within a federalized UK or within a federalized EU, or a federalized whatever, I'm pretty ambivalent about.

The important thing is having the right levels of governance to deliver an accepted form of government, that's actually effective

The colours of the flags or the passports matter little to me.

Getting there isn't going to happen tomorrow or the day after, but at some point, people have to let go of their nationalistic foibles and go with what actually might work best for everyone.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm not suggesting we add subsets. I'm talking about removing the need for local authorities and for Holyrood altogether.

I have no expectation of this being accepted by many, if any, but democracy and public services should serve their people.

To my mind, what's most pragmatic is something very local, that then sits within the mass I described previously, because that seems rational.

Whether that sits within a federalized UK or within a federalized EU, or a federalized whatever, I'm pretty ambivalent about.

The important thing is having the right levels of governance to deliver an accepted form of government, that's actually effective

The colours of the flags or the passports matter little to me.

Getting there isn't going to happen tomorrow or the day after, but at some point, people have to let go of their nationalistic foibles and go with what actually might work best for everyone.

Exactly how localized are you talking about here? You talk about removing the need for local authorities, so what exactly would you replace them with?

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't disagree with that. But the more we start dividing things up this way, the more money it's going to cost for all of these extra local government subsets. It's not as simple as "it looks good, lets implement it". It has to be financially viable and actually function the way it's intended to in the real world. It also adds additional elements of complexity and the more complexity there is, the more potential there is for things to go wrong.


I'm not suggesting we add subsets. I'm talking about removing the need for local authorities and for Holyrood altogether.

I have no expectation of this being accepted by many, if any, but democracy and public services should serve their people.

To my mind, what's most pragmatic is something very local, that then sits within the mass I described previously, because that seems rational.

Whether that sits within a federalized UK or within a federalized EU, or a federalized whatever, I'm pretty ambivalent about.

The important thing is having the right levels of governance to deliver an accepted form of government, that's actually effective

The colours of the flags or the passports matter little to me.

Getting there isn't going to happen tomorrow or the day after, but at some point, people have to let go of their nationalistic foibles and go with what actually might work best for everyone.



velkommen til norge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qETU278lLjc

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qETU278lLjc)

You guys are discussing the Norwegian model, local taxes raised for local services and only major infrastructure such as roads at a national level. :thumbsup:

[ronaldo7]

I'm not suggesting we add subsets. I'm talking about removing the need for local authorities and for Holyrood altogether.

I have no expectation of this being accepted by many, if any, but democracy and public services should serve their people.

To my mind, what's most pragmatic is something very local, that then sits within the mass I described previously, because that seems rational.

Whether that sits within a federalized UK or within a federalized EU, or a federalized whatever, I'm pretty ambivalent about.

The important thing is having the right levels of governance to deliver an accepted form of government, that's actually effective

The colours of the flags or the passports matter little to me.

Getting there isn't going to happen tomorrow or the day after, but at some point, people have to let go of their nationalistic foibles and go with what actually might work best for everyone.

Sounds good to me. Let's start with going from 60 million to 5 million. 😂

[Fife-Hibee]

velkommen til norge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qETU278lLjc

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qETU278lLjc)

You guys are discussing the Norwegian model, local taxes raised for local services and only major infrastructure such as roads at a national level. :thumbsup:

Not exactly. As in Norway, the national government is actually located there. :wink:

Incredible what can be achieved when a country is in complete control of it's finances and resources.

[Mibbes Aye]

Exactly how localized are you talking about here? You talk about removing the need for local authorities, so what exactly would you replace them with?

I'm being speculative, I'm just posting so don't hold me too hard to account :greengrin

I do believe that something like the Lothians, maybe including Borders, maybe not, maybe including Fife, maybe not, works in terms of long-term infrastructure and economic planning. Fife has a lot of commuters to Edinburgh so it might fit but conceivably could fit into a region that incorporates Perth, Dundee etc.

Likewise Borders feeds into Edinburgh but parts of it are as close to Newcastle as they are Edinburgh and there's also crossover into what is currently Dumfries and Galloway.

In terms of infrastructure, to illustrate my point, depending on where you live in the Borders, if you need health care, whether a hospital admission or a district nurse coming to change your catheter, you might be seen by a DN from NHS Borders, NHS Lothian, NHS Lanarkshire, NHS D+G, or the NHS boards for Northumberland or Cumbria. In practice it works, there are cross-boundary arrangements to cover it but it is bureaucratic and unwieldy.

I think there is a case for streamlining a lot of that into natural boundaries while accepting there will still be crossover.

But to answer your question, if for the sake of argument you had an authority at an SE Scotland level, say the Lothians, the top end of the Borders and the commuter belt from Fife, then my thoughts would be that you need something smaller than the old district councils, otherwise we have just gone back to something like the old days of regional/district councils.

I'm open to suggestions. As I've said, my instincts are towards pragmatism and proper representation. If you take the Lothians, there are natural areas of population density, it just depends how many ways you want to slice it and what's actually going to be effective in people's lives.

Midlothian has a population of around 90,000 and a lot of people work in Edinburgh. It divides pretty neatly two ways, three ways or six ways depending on how you want to approach it. It divides even further if you go down the community council route.

I think very true grassroots democracy, in an urban environment, works well at around a scale of five or six hundred households. The trick would be to scale that up into something that can then meaningfully inform decision-making at the regional level I described previously.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sounds good to me. Let's start with going from 60 million to 5 million. 😂

Let's go from 60 million to 7.5 billion :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm being speculative, I'm just posting so don't hold me too hard to account :greengrin

I do believe that something like the Lothians, maybe including Borders, maybe not, maybe including Fife, maybe not, works in terms of long-term infrastructure and economic planning. Fife has a lot of commuters to Edinburgh so it might fit but conceivably could fit into a region that incorporates Perth, Dundee etc.

Likewise Borders feeds into Edinburgh but parts of it are as close to Newcastle as they are Edinburgh and there's also crossover into what is currently Dumfries and Galloway.

In terms of infrastructure, to illustrate my point, depending on where you live in the Borders, if you need health care, whether a hospital admission or a district nurse coming to change your catheter, you might be seen by a DN from NHS Borders, NHS Lothian, NHS Lanarkshire, NHS D+G, or the NHS boards for Northumberland or Cumbria. In practice it works, there are cross-boundary arrangements to cover it but it is bureaucratic and unwieldy.

I think there is a case for streamlining a lot of that into natural boundaries while accepting there will still be crossover.

But to answer your question, if for the sake of argument you had an authority at an SE Scotland level, say the Lothians, the top end of the Borders and the commuter belt from Fife, then my thoughts would be that you need something smaller than the old district councils, otherwise we have just gone back to something like the old days of regional/district councils.

I'm open to suggestions. As I've said, my instincts are towards pragmatism and proper representation. If you take the Lothians, there are natural areas of population density, it just depends how many ways you want to slice it and what's actually going to be effective in people's lives.

Midlothian has a population of around 90,000 and a lot of people work in Edinburgh. It divides pretty neatly two ways, three ways or six ways depending on how you want to approach it. It divides even further if you go down the community council route.

I think very true grassroots democracy, in an urban environment, works well at around a scale of five or six hundred households. The trick would be to scale that up into something that can then meaningfully inform decision-making at the regional level I described previously.

There's a lot of talk of borders in there. I know the perfect man for the job. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Let's go from 60 million to 7.5 billion :wink:

I'll let you fight that battle,👊 we've(the yes movement) only got about 300k to convince. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

I'll let you fight that battle,👊 we've(the yes movement) only got about 300k to convince. 😉

Aim your sights higher.

If you can reach 300K then why stop short of going for the remaining 7bn?

We all live in the same world :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

Aim your sights higher.

If you can reach 300K then why stop short of going for the remaining 7bn?

We all live in the same world :wink:

You're just an Earth nationalist.

Sent from angry universal unionist from Mars :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Aim your sights higher.

If you can reach 300K then why stop short of going for the remaining 7bn?

We all live in the same world :wink:

That's the daftest thing I've ever read!

Some folk are on a different planet, and some are out of this world entirely! :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

You're just an Earth nationalist.

Sent from angry universal unionist from Mars :wink:

Drat. Beat me to it!

[Fife-Hibee]

Drat. Beat me to it!

:greengrin

[Smartie]

I agree.

I've said before on here, the levels of government that would work best are something that operates at a Lothian level, perhaps SE Scotland, perhaps including Fife, maybe not. That's about the right level to be close to the people but still have critical mass.

Beneath that you can have some form of representative democracy at a real community level.

What's right for Corstorphine isn't right for Caithness and vice versa. No point forcing the issue, which makes the whole Scottish independence thing irrational to me.

There is a need for some sort of overarching legislative or regulatory framework, but whether that's Westminster or Brussels I'm pragmatic.

I quite like your idea, I'm open to it yet not totally sold.

The Caithness/ Corstorphine part sounds good and makes sense, but are the needs of Corstorphine and Caithness any more different than Morningside and Muirhouse? Or Moffat, if we're talking South of Scotland?

[JeMeSouviens]

I quite like your idea, I'm open to it yet not totally sold.

The Caithness/ Corstorphine part sounds good and makes sense, but are the needs of Corstorphine and Caithness any more different than Morningside and Muirhouse? Or Moffat, if we're talking South of Scotland?

I like it too but the gateway to any change like this is independence. There is just no appetite in England for anything other than monolithic, "strong", fptp elected, majority rule of a unitary state centralised in London. If anything, Brexit is only making things worse in that regard.

The SNP has a worrying tendency to centralise also but there have been moves in the right direction, the Islands bill for instance. I believe post Indy there will be a far more open minded approach to considering these things. A blank slate and freedom from being shackled to tradition will open things up. Centralisation could hardly get worse, let's face it.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are clearly things that make sense on as macro a scale as possible. Trade and the associated regulation: the European single market shows that - who in their right mind would leave it? I would add defence and foreign affairs as things that make sense at the EU level. The EU attempts a common foreign policy but without defence it doesn't really stack up. This is another thing I believe Scots could embrace but the UK would bitterly oppose to the death.

So, further EU integration for things that need macro integration and max devolution to the local level where that makes sense. You can, however, only piss with the cock you've got, as they say, and the only pragmatic route to make Scotland better is via independence. Waiting for a UK miracle will see nothing change until long after I'm dead for sure.

[ronaldo7]

Aim your sights higher.

If you can reach 300K then why stop short of going for the remaining 7bn?

We all live in the same world :wink:

Just my wee country would do. I've no need for your expansionist dreams.

Empire 3?

[Hibrandenburg]

You are making a false differentiation though.

Many, many people in Scotland voted for Brexit, including Nats.

Many, many people in England voted for Remain.

This isn’t an England telling Scotland what to do thing (though I get why you might want to present it as that)

That's a rather strange statement, the people of England voted to leave the EU, the people of Scotland voted to remain and now we're leaving. That's a pretty blatant example of the people of England telling the people of Scotland what do.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's a rather strange statement, the people of England voted to leave the EU, the people of Scotland voted to remain and now we're leaving. That's a pretty blatant example of the people of England telling the people of Scotland what do.

It’s not really.

[marinello59]

That's a rather strange statement, the people of England voted to leave the EU, the people of Scotland voted to remain and now we're leaving. That's a pretty blatant example of the people of England telling the people of Scotland what do.

I’ve voted for the losing candidate at several general elections. Looks like those who voted for the winner were blatantly telling me what to do.

[marinello59]

Sounds good to me. Let's start with going from 60 million to 5 million. 😂

As long as the centralist SNP aren’t in control it’s a decent start. Maybe we could get local police and fire services again. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

As long as the centralist SNP aren’t in control it’s a decent start. Maybe we could get local police and fire services again. :wink:

Maybe a resurgent Labour party, or even a new one going back to their roots, without the lords, and nuclear weapons will happen.

Let's get Indy first.

[heretoday]

Get rid of Corbyn. Get Cooper in.

[Just Alf]

Maybe a resurgent Labour party, or even a new one going back to their roots, without the lords, and nuclear weapons will happen.

Let's get Indy first.So many of my mates I talk too seem to say the same... Voting SNP seems to be a means to an end.... Not to happy about a couple that would instantly revert to Tory in an iScotland mind!



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Get rid of Corbyn. Get Cooper in.

Just like that. ha, ha, ha.

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s not really.

England voted overall to leave, Scotland voted overall to remain. Scotland is leaving. That's the reality. Scotland is getting what England voted for. But we're so used to that now.

[Mibbes Aye]

England voted overall to leave, Scotland voted overall to remain. Scotland is leaving. That's the reality. Scotland is getting what England voted for. But we're so used to that now.

Scotland is getting what more than a million of its voters voted for.

England is getting what thirteen million of its voters didn't vote for.

But we knew what the referendum entailed before it took place, so I'm not sure why anyone would try and equate it to a nationalist argument to try and score cheap political points.

[Fife-Hibee]

Scotland is getting what more than a million of its voters voted for.

England is getting what thirteen million of its voters didn't vote for.

But we knew what the referendum entailed before it took place, so I'm not sure why anyone would try and equate it to a nationalist argument to try and score cheap political points.

A majority in Scotland voted to remain.
A majority in England voted to leave.

If we were a normal country like every other country in the world not in the UK, then we would be remaining and our economy would not be facing absolute disaster.

It's hardly a "cheap point". It's a very real and very disastrous situation we find ourselves in. A situation that Scotland didn't ask for.

[Mibbes Aye]

A majority in Scotland voted to remain.
A majority in England voted to leave.

If we were a normal country like every other country in the world not in the UK, then we would be remaining and our economy would not be facing absolute disaster.

It's hardly a "cheap point". It's a very real and very disastrous situation we find ourselves in. A situation that Scotland didn't ask for.

"Scotland didn't ask for".......

More than a million Scots did. As part of a bigger representative democracy that also voted for it.

I don't like it either but we knew the rules. Turning it into an 'England shafting Scotland' thing is so ludicrously transparent that it is difficult to know where to start.

[JeMeSouviens]

"Scotland didn't ask for".......

More than a million Scots did. As part of a bigger representative democracy that also voted for it.

I don't like it either but we knew the rules. Turning it into an 'England shafting Scotland' thing is so ludicrously transparent that it is difficult to know where to start.

Not arguing it was a UK ref and remain lost on that basis ... but it is surely interesting that the result was so different on either side of the border? 54-46 vs 38-62. The received wisdom is that Scots and rUK voters are really all much the same so how do you explain it?

[James310]

Not arguing it was a UK ref and remain lost on that basis ... but it is surely interesting that the result was so different on either side of the border? 54-46 vs 38-62. The received wisdom is that Scots and rUK voters are really all much the same so how do you explain it?

I think it's well known for some people the reason they voted Leave was immigration. Perhaps communities in Scotland have not seen the same strain on resources that it can cause. The biggest leave constituency was Boston and Skegness, the town of Boston has seen a big increase in its population over the last 10 years of which over 50% was due to immigration. I am guessing that has knock on impact on local services.

Might be nonsense but I think for some communities it would have been a contributing factor.

[Hibrandenburg]

Scotland is getting what more than a million of its voters voted for.

England is getting what thirteen million of its voters didn't vote for.

But we knew what the referendum entailed before it took place, so I'm not sure why anyone would try and equate it to a nationalist argument to try and score cheap political points.

I'm glad you're finally coming round to the reasoning that Scotland will only get what it votes for outside the Union. :wink:

[marinello59]

A majority in Scotland voted to remain.
A majority in England voted to leave.



It’s the Welsh I feel sorry for, no matter how they vote they just get ignored in all these debates.
Why won’t anybody think about the Welsh? :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

"Scotland didn't ask for".......

More than a million Scots did. As part of a bigger representative democracy that also voted for it.

I don't like it either but we knew the rules. Turning it into an 'England shafting Scotland' thing is so ludicrously transparent that it is difficult to know where to start.

TBF it’s my primary reason for Independence.

The Democratic deficiency.

J

[Bristolhibby]

It’s the Welsh I feel sorry for, no matter how they vote they just get ignored in all these debates.
Why won’t anybody think about the Welsh? :greengrin

They voted to leave.

Just think of the Gibraltarians. 99% voted to remain.

Then again, they have managed to get their own “deal”.

I guess 99% is the magic number for getting something bespoke.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's well known for some people the reason they voted Leave was immigration. Perhaps communities in Scotland have not seen the same strain on resources that it can cause. The biggest leave constituency was Boston and Skegness, the town of Boston has seen a big increase in its population over the last 10 years of which over 50% was due to immigration. I am guessing that has knock on impact on local services.

Might be nonsense but I think for some communities it would have been a contributing factor.

Ah yes, they just come over here to use our services, the NHS, never pay any tax argument.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-workers-uk-tax-treasury-brexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/18/eu-migrants-worth-public-finances-uk-born-study-claims/

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

Well, that argument held up :greengrin

[James310]

Ah yes, they just come over here to use our services, the NHS, never pay any tax argument.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-workers-uk-tax-treasury-brexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/18/eu-migrants-worth-public-finances-uk-born-study-claims/

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

Well, that argument held up :greengrin

I thought you were maybe a bit more intelligent to realise that for some people in these areas the facts mean nothing and perception is everything.

Why don't you head down to these areas and tell them the facts with your Oxford Economic studies and how they are all wrong and get them to read the economist to prove your point. Let me know how you get on.

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought you were maybe a bit more intelligent to realise that for some people in these areas the facts mean nothing and perception is everything.

Why don't you head down to these areas and tell them the facts with your Oxford Economic studies and how they are all wrong and get them to read the economist to prove your point. Let me know how you get on.

Still there was, and is, no strain on resources that you suggested.

[James310]

Still there was, and is, no strain on resources that you suggested.

Do your links not say immigrants bring in more money that they take out? That does not prove there is no strain on local services if there is an increase in population driven by immigration though. Are you assuming all the extra revenue is diverted to these areas?

You can link to all the studies you like, but if you went and spoke to the people of these areas then your facts will mean nothing and their perception and their outlook is what matters to them, not what an Oxford Economic study tells them.

[RyeSloan]

Still there was, and is, no strain on resources that you suggested.

That’s simply not something you can extrapolate from the headline figure.

The figure suggests that’s over the period the migrants are here their fiscal contribution is positive. Largely it seems due to the fact they leave in large numbers before retirement and this save the cost of old age pensions and healthcare. So from that perspective that’s a big positive.

But to suggest they don’t then put strain on resources ignores the local effect of the need for additional schooling or the impact of non native English speaking persons on the local community.

As ever it’s a complex subject that defies generalisation as each area and person will be impacted differently.

Saying in general and in fiscal terms (assuming the many assumptions made are correct) the impact is positive would be supported by the study however it’s also totally feasibility to be also correct when saying immigration has other negative impacts on the native population and on a localised basis may cause strain on existing resources.

It’s really not a subject where one can say you are definitely right and the other is definitely wrong.

[cabbageandribs1875]

just a pity it was such a lenient sentence,, imagine having this representing you in government, maybe her delightful son will pick up the family baton, i'm sure jeremy will cheer her up when he visits


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47040912


An MP who lied to police about being behind the wheel in a speeding car has been jailed.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s simply not something you can extrapolate from the headline figure.

The figure suggests that’s over the period the migrants are here their fiscal contribution is positive. Largely it seems due to the fact they leave in large numbers before retirement and this save the cost of old age pensions and healthcare. So from that perspective that’s a big positive.

But to suggest they don’t then put strain on resources ignores the local effect of the need for additional schooling or the impact of non native English speaking persons on the local community.

As ever it’s a complex subject that defies generalisation as each area and person will be impacted differently.

Saying in general and in fiscal terms (assuming the many assumptions made are correct) the impact is positive would be supported by the study however it’s also totally feasibility to be also correct when saying immigration has other negative impacts on the native population and on a localised basis may cause strain on existing resources.

It’s really not a subject where one can say you are definitely right and the other is definitely wrong.

All that aside, the UK has had a target of "tens of thousands" of net immigrants for years and never gets remotely close to it for *non-EU migrants*. Businesses want/need a ready supply of young workers and the UK govt has been quite happy to accomodate them.

[Ozyhibby]

All that aside, the UK has had a target of "tens of thousands" of net immigrants for years and never gets remotely close to it for *non-EU migrants*. Businesses want/need a ready supply of young workers and the UK govt has been quite happy to accomodate them.

And will continue to do so. Only once brexit happens they will come from further afield where they are cheaper and can be sent back when we are done with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

And will continue to do so. Only once brexit happens they will come from further afield where they are cheaper and can be sent back when we are done with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha.

As soon as we approach India or China or wherever for trade deals, the first word out of their mouths will be "residency visas".

[hibsbollah]

just a pity it was such a lenient sentence,, imagine having this representing you in government, maybe her delightful son will pick up the family baton, i'm sure jeremy will cheer her up when he visits


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47040912


An MP who lied to police about being behind the wheel in a speeding car has been jailed.


Is there any need to describe a fellow human being as 'this'?:confused: Very peculiar language to use. She got caught lying to police. She's not Fred West.

[Hibbyradge]

Is there any need to describe a fellow human being as 'this'?:confused: Very peculiar language to use. She got caught lying to police. She's not Fred West.

https://i.postimg.cc/GpDcd8Fc/dog-whistle-1080x675.jpg

[hibsbollah]

https://i.postimg.cc/GpDcd8Fc/dog-whistle-1080x675.jpg

My first thought as well :agree:

[WhileTheChief..]

You can link to all the studies you like, but if you went and spoke to the people of these areas then your facts will mean nothing and their perception and their outlook is what matters to them, not what an Oxford Economic study tells them.

This is a great point that can be applied to a lot of the political problems in the West.

In general terms, the political elite and media are so far removed from the views of the public that it’s frightening.

I’d go a step further and suggest that people aren’t that bothered about immigration as such, it’s the spread of Islam.

If immigrants were coming from Canada, USA, Oz etc then nobody would bat an eyelid.

It’s the massive elephant in the room that no one will / can discuss.

Merkal’s decision re Syrian refugees played a big part in the Brexit result.

You might find what I’ve typed distasteful but it’s a discussion that is heading our way in the future. Not just in the UK but across Europe.

[ronaldo7]

Is there any need to describe a fellow human being as 'this'?:confused: Very peculiar language to use. She got caught lying to police. She's not Fred West.

She'd only have abstained, or been part of the Brexit rump with the 14. 😱 😉

[Bangkok Hibby]

This is a great point that can be applied to a lot of the political problems in the West.

In general terms, the political elite and media are so far removed from the views of the public that it’s frightening.

I’d go a step further and suggest that people aren’t that bothered about immigration as such, it’s the spread of Islam.

If immigrants were coming from Canada, USA, Oz etc then nobody would bat an eyelid.

It’s the massive elephant in the room that no one will / can discuss.

Merkal’s decision re Syrian refugees played a big part in the Brexit result.

You might find what I’ve typed distasteful but it’s a discussion that is heading our way in the future. Not just in the UK but across Europe.

Its a view that isnt discussed enough.

[Bristolhibby]

This is a great point that can be applied to a lot of the political problems in the West.

In general terms, the political elite and media are so far removed from the views of the public that it’s frightening.

I’d go a step further and suggest that people aren’t that bothered about immigration as such, it’s the spread of Islam.

If immigrants were coming from Canada, USA, Oz etc then nobody would bat an eyelid.

It’s the massive elephant in the room that no one will / can discuss.

Merkal’s decision re Syrian refugees played a big part in the Brexit result.

You might find what I’ve typed distasteful but it’s a discussion that is heading our way in the future. Not just in the UK but across Europe.

So it’s bigotory. If you are white Christian fine. Brown Muslim - Bad.

At least you are honest.

J

[WhileTheChief..]

And there it is. Raise the subject and get called a bigot straight away.

That’s part of the problem right there.

[Bangkok Hibby]

And there it is. Raise the subject and get called a bigot straight away.

That’s part of the problem right there.


I wonder how many on here know or work with "normal" working class Englishmen who initially switched to UKIP then voted leave?
I work with these guys and believe me they all complain about the spread of Islam in their communities. In their eyes white Europeans or North American immigrants dont even enter the discussion. I'm making no defence of their reasonings but I absolutely agree with "while the chief" Its a fact of life in working class England

[WhileTheChief..]

Thank you.

Part of the problem is you have to walk on egg shells when discussing this issue.

This thread is asking about the future of the Labour Party.

They’re appear to have put all their focus into identity politics and have ignored their traditional base.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Thank you.

Part of the problem is you have to walk on egg shells when discussing this issue.

This thread is asking about the future of the Labour Party.

They’re appear to have put all their focus into identity politics and have ignored their traditional base.

Exactly, thats why I mentioned "working class" and "switching to UKIP" Working class may be a meaningless, outdated term for many these days but its still relevant in many natural Labour heartlands and these are the people who are deserting Labour in droves.

[Hibrandenburg]

Exactly, thats why I mentioned "working class" and "switching to UKIP" Working class may be a meaningless, outdated term for many these days but its still relevant in many natural Labour heartlands and these are the people who are deserting Labour in droves.

I used to joke about Labour socialists moving their party allegiance to UKIP making them National Socialists. I'm not sure anymore if it's just a joke.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wonder how many on here know or work with "normal" working class Englishmen who initially switched to UKIP then voted leave?
I work with these guys and believe me they all complain about the spread of Islam in their communities. In their eyes white Europeans or North American immigrants dont even enter the discussion. I'm making no defence of their reasonings but I absolutely agree with "while the chief" Its a fact of life in working class England

I was in London at the weekend and stayed at an Ibis Hotel in Whitechapel, this attitude was mirrored by the owner of the boozer near the hotel. I can see why some folk feel that way, I wouldn't fancying living there. I don't though so I'm happy to be an SNP man.

[Slavers]

I used to joke about Labour socialists moving their party allegiance to UKIP making them National Socialists. I'm not sure anymore if it's just a joke.

Breathtaking ignorance.

[Hibrandenburg]

Breathtaking ignorance.

Or enlightening insight.

[Slavers]

Or enlightening insight.

Depends how deluded you are tbh.

[Hibrandenburg]

Depends how deluded you are tbh.

You mean even more deluded that believing Trump is a Satanist and the Clintons are heading a secret Luciferian organisation plotting to gain world domination?

[Fife-Hibee]

I wonder how many on here know or work with "normal" working class Englishmen who initially switched to UKIP then voted leave?
I work with these guys and believe me they all complain about the spread of Islam in their communities. In their eyes white Europeans or North American immigrants dont even enter the discussion. I'm making no defence of their reasonings but I absolutely agree with "while the chief" Its a fact of life in working class England

What about the normal working class Muslim, who was either born in the UK, or fled violence in their own country stirred up by western international politics?

Why does the white working mans views hold greater value? He's the first to shout "bomb them" when western government is deciding who to plumage next. Then the first to complain when people flee here for safety.

**** him I say.

[hibsbollah]

I wonder how many on here know or work with "normal" working class Englishmen who initially switched to UKIP then voted leave?
I work with these guys and believe me they all complain about the spread of Islam in their communities. In their eyes white Europeans or North American immigrants dont even enter the discussion. I'm making no defence of their reasonings but I absolutely agree with "while the chief" Its a fact of life in working class England

All of these guys you work complain about the spread of Islam? All of them? Really? That sounds like an atypical workplace.

I know plenty of working class English people who don't complain about it. Or think it's an issue at all. And some who think it's wholly positive. I also know a guy in the EDL. And a white girl who converted to Islam. We all have empirical evidence, it doesn't prove anything one way or another.

As to the comment about 'i wouldn't want to live down there (London)either', neither would I, but that's not do with the diversity of cultures, I just think a lot of it is a ****hole. And even if you earn a good wedge you can't buy a house anywhere near the city. If you don't want to live there because there's too many 'immigrants', and you know in your heart you would be ok with it if they were all Canadians or Irish instead of Bangladeshis, you're a racist. By definition. It's time for some honesty.

I'm not sure that it's distinctly an issue for the Labour Party anyway. Shifting class boundaries will mean that distrust of certain kinds of foreigners will be an issue for every political party to address pretty much equally.

[WhileTheChief..]

Think you’ve quoted the wrong guy.

Bangkok Hibby never said he wouldn’t like to live there and you’ve just called him a racist.

We need to be able to have these discussions without labelling people as bigots or racists.

For 20 years we’ve been told that multiculturalism and diversity is a good thing. Why does that only apply to the West?

You ever visited Tokyo or other Far Eastern cities? I don’t see them clamouring for an influx of white, black or brown people. They seem to be doing just fine.

I used to work for Standard Life in Edinburgh. At lunchtime in the canteen you would find that people tended to sit with their own.

12 asians at a table next to 12 white folk at another. That isn’t racism or bigotry, people tend to associate more closely with “their own”. It’s just the way it is.

If you work in a large office have a look around yourself and you’ll see what I mean.

Now don’t come back name calling me. I’m simply making obersvations and asking questions. At no time have I said that something is right or wrong.

Let’s try and keep this civil?

[Slavers]

What about the normal working class Muslim, who was either born in the UK, or fled violence in their own country stirred up by western international politics?

Why does the white working mans views hold greater value? He's the first to shout "bomb them" when western government is deciding who to plumage next. Then the first to complain when people flee here for safety.

**** him I say.

Sweeping generalizations born out of hatred and ignorance.

[Slavers]

Think you’ve quoted the wrong guy.

Bangkok Hibby never said he wouldn’t like to live there and you’ve just called him a racist.

We need to be able to have these discussions without labelling people as bigots or racists.

For 20 years we’ve been told that multiculturalism and diversity is a good thing. Why does that only apply to the West?

You ever visited Tokyo or other Far Eastern cities? I don’t see them clamouring for an influx of white, black or brown people. They seem to be doing just fine.

I used to work for Standard Life in Edinburgh. At lunchtime in the canteen you would find that people tended to sit with their own.

12 asians at a table next to 12 white folk at another. That isn’t racism or bigotry, people tend to associate more closely with “their own”. It’s just the way it is.

If you work in a large office have a look around yourself and you’ll see what I mean.

Now don’t come back name calling me. I’m simply making obersvations and asking questions. At no time have I said that something is right or wrong.

Let’s try and keep this civil?

Alot on here are ideologues with a world view learned from the materials they read with little or no exposure to the real life tensions within communities who are badly affected by immigration.

[Fife-Hibee]

Sweeping generalizations born out of hatred and ignorance.

Oh, I agree. That's why I couldn't care less about their hateful ignorant views.

[Slavers]

Oh, I agree. That's why I couldn't care less about their hateful ignorant views.

Yet you can't recognize your own similar hateful ignorant views.

[Fife-Hibee]

I used to work for Standard Life in Edinburgh. At lunchtime in the canteen you would find that people tended to sit with their own.

12 asians at a table next to 12 white folk at another. That isn’t racism or bigotry, people tend to associate more closely with “their own”. It’s just the way it is.

When you say "used to". Just how many decades ago are you talking about? It's nothing like that anymore.

Oh and just for the record, a person can be Asian and white. :aok:

[hibsbollah]

Think you’ve quoted the wrong guy.

Bangkok Hibby never said he wouldn’t like to live there and you’ve just called him a racist.

We need to be able to have these discussions without labelling people as bigots or racists.

For 20 years we’ve been told that multiculturalism and diversity is a good thing. Why does that only apply to the West?

You ever visited Tokyo or other Far Eastern cities? I don’t see them clamouring for an influx of white, black or brown people. They seem to be doing just fine.

I used to work for Standard Life in Edinburgh. At lunchtime in the canteen you would find that people tended to sit with their own.

12 asians at a table next to 12 white folk at another. That isn’t racism or bigotry, people tend to associate more closely with “their own”. It’s just the way it is.

If you work in a large office have a look around yourself and you’ll see what I mean.

Now don’t come back name calling me. I’m simply making obersvations and asking questions. At no time have I said that something is right or wrong.

Let’s try and keep this civil?

:dunno:
I don't know what you're going on about.

If you pay attention there's no name calling. Racism isn't a swear word, if you are happy discussing the cons of immigration you should be equally happy discussing what constitutes racism, surely?

I've worked in big offices all over the world, including in East Asia, as it happens, and I sat with everyone else. I think anyone who sat with only their own racial group would be considered weird and a bit backward, I'm not sure anyone in business behaves like this. Everything about your post baffles me.

Anyway, this is getting way off the Labour Party :faf:

[WhileTheChief..]

When you say "used to". Just how many decades ago are you talking about? It's nothing like that anymore.

Oh and just for the record, a person can be Asian and white. :aok:

A year ago.

And of course you get white asians but I think you know the point I’m making

[Fife-Hibee]

A year ago.

And of course you get white asians but I think you know the point I’m making

I really don't.

You have a very black and white (excuse the term) view when it comes to ethnic groups. Completely failing to realize that mixed ethnicity is a common thing these days. People that don't fit into any one particular group is increasingly more common.

If social integration is still a major issue in this day and age. That doesn't mean we should chase people off that we deem different to ourselves. It just means that we have to try even harder.

You'll find that those that complain the most about different ethnic groups 'taking over' are also the least likely to approach different ethnic groups to try and integrate with them.

[hibsbollah]

A year ago.

And of course you get white asians but I think you know the point I’m making

You should probably start a separate race and identity thread if you find it interesting because this is way off topic.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’ll assume you’re a white male living in Edinburgh for a minute, apologies if that’s not the case.

When’s the last time you had an Asian couple round for dinner at your place?

My parents are in their 70s. All of their friends and family are white. I don’t tjink they’ve ever had Asians or coloured people round for a meal, ever. Not because they are racist, they just don’t know any and therefore don’t socialise with them.

I’ve never seen one Asian person at our local bowling club.

Working men’s clubs? Predominantly white.

You rarely see Asian people at the cinema or when out for a meal or drinks.

How many go to ER regularly?

This isn’t the fault of the population of Edinburgh.

It’s simply that the two cultures are very different and do or like different things.

[WhileTheChief..]

The topic is about the Labour Party. It’s absolutely relevant as to what their problems are.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’ll assume you’re a white male living in Edinburgh for a minute, apologies if that’s not the case.

Nope, you've assumed correctly. :aok:


When’s the last time you had an Asian couple round for dinner at your place?

When was the last time I had anybody over for dinner? :boo hoo:


My parents are in their 70s. All of their friends and family are white. I don’t tjink they’ve ever had Asians or coloured people round for a meal, ever. Not because they are racist, they just don’t know any and therefore don’t socialise with them.

Well if they don't socialise with any of them, then they're not going to know any. :wink:


I’ve never seen one Asian person at our local bowling club.

You'll never see me in them either. Listening to some white, privileged, conservative auld geezers bamming on about the latest Daily Express headline doesn't interested me all that much i'm afraid :greengrin


Working men’s clubs? Predominantly white.

See above. Have they removed the "whites only" signs yet? :wink:


You rarely see Asian people at the cinema or when out for a meal or drinks.

I rarely see anybody at the cinema, it's usually too dark to make people out clearly. The meal/drinks thing is complete nonsense though. Perhaps you need to get away from your local bowling club bar? :greengrin


How many go to ER regularly?

I don't know. I don't actively count how many Asians I think I can make out from the crowd or try to memorize if they were there last time.


This isn’t the fault of the population of Edinburgh.

I agree and being part of the population, Asians and other ethnic groups are no more at fault than the rest of us.


It’s simply that the two cultures are very different and do or like different things.

I can assure you that Asians like to drink, watch movies and eat food just like the rest of us. They're probably just not so psyched about the idea of being members of a club that have historically rejected them. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder how many on here know or work with "normal" working class Englishmen who initially switched to UKIP then voted leave?
I work with these guys and believe me they all complain about the spread of Islam in their communities. In their eyes white Europeans or North American immigrants dont even enter the discussion. I'm making no defence of their reasonings but I absolutely agree with "while the chief" Its a fact of life in working class England

Polish people and Romanians come in for a lot of grief too.

A significant number of people feel threatened by the fact that they are bilingual, I think, so the natural reaction to that is to dislike them.

[Saturday Boy]

Polish people and Romanians come in for a lot of grief too.

A significant number of people feel threatened by the fact that they are bilingual, I think, so the natural reaction to that is to dislike them.

A good point about language.

I was on a bus in Edinburgh and a couple of Polish girls were chatting in Polish. Two old dearies in the seat in front of me were saying that they should be made to talk in English when they’re here.


You wouldn’t believe the tutting when I asked them if they only spoke Spanish on their summer holidays 😄

[lapsedhibee]

Polish people and Romanians come in for a lot of grief too.

A significant number of people feel threatened by the fact that they are bilingual, I think, so the natural reaction to that is to dislike them.

Come over here, speaking our language.

[Fife-Hibee]

A good point about language.

I was on a bus in Edinburgh and a couple of Polish girls were chatting in Polish. Two old dearies in the seat in front of me were saying that they should be made to talk in English when they’re here.


You wouldn’t believe the tutting when I asked them if they only spoke Spanish on their summer holidays 😄

Aye, but they're "expats" when they're in Spain, no "foreigners". Ye cannae be a foreigner in another country if you're British. (Or so the deeply held belief goes).

[Bangkok Hibby]

All of these guys you work complain about the spread of Islam? All of them? Really? That sounds like an atypical workplace.

I know plenty of working class English people who don't complain about it. Or think it's an issue at all. And some who think it's wholly positive. I also know a guy in the EDL. And a white girl who converted to Islam. We all have empirical evidence, it doesn't prove anything one way or another.

As to the comment about 'i wouldn't want to live down there (London)either', neither would I, but that's not do with the diversity of cultures, I just think a lot of it is a ****hole. And even if you earn a good wedge you can't buy a house anywhere near the city. If you don't want to live there because there's too many 'immigrants', and you know in your heart you would be ok with it if they were all Canadians or Irish instead of Bangladeshis, you're a racist. By definition. It's time for some honesty.

I'm not sure that it's distinctly an issue for the Labour Party anyway. Shifting class boundaries will mean that distrust of certain kinds of foreigners will be an issue for every political party to address pretty much equally.

Yes all of them. Get any political discussion going in the tea shack and its full on. However you have a different experience with your friends, funny old world eh?
I also said I make no defence of their thoughts I'm merely reporting what I see and hear, so I sincerely hope you are not calling me a racist. I dont think you've replied yet to "while the chief" where he points out you're quoting the wrong person

[JeMeSouviens]

A good point about language.

I was on a bus in Edinburgh and a couple of Polish girls were chatting in Polish. Two old dearies in the seat in front of me were saying that they should be made to talk in English when they’re here.


You wouldn’t believe the tutting when I asked them if they only spoke Spanish on their summer holidays 😄

Think that's bad, check out this doozy ...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-woman-81-claims-benidorm-13075153

:faf:

[Saturday Boy]

Think that's bad, check out this doozy ...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-woman-81-claims-benidorm-13075153

:faf:


A proper heart warming story 😄

I think these types of stories show that part of the problem is education. Not in the school and university sense, but in the simple knowledge of other people and cultures.

I know we’re drifting off the thread topic, but an encounter I had while in Molde is interesting.

I went to Norway with 2 mates and we stayed in an Airbnb on the fjord. When we got the bus to the stadium, we started chatting to the young lad who had served us in the local mini market earlier.

We chatted about cricket- he was a big fan and told us that he’d come to Norway as a refugee child. He spoke excellent English, Norwegian and from his childhood in Afghanistan could also speak Pashto , Farsi and Arabic .

It was slightly embarrassing that we could only muster some schoolboy French between us.

And yet back home the popular view is that immigrants and refugees are ignorant and only here to claim benefits.

Sadly it would take a brave political party to try and show the positive side of immigrants.

[Hibrandenburg]

Occasionally we employ Brits over here on 1 year contracts that will get extended providing they can pass a basic German language test after 12 months. Most of them don't last 6 months as the majority have disciplinary issues within the probationary period and are launched and those who who survive probation fall at the language hurdle because they can't be bothered to make the effort.

I'd understand if it was low paid lackey work but it's a decent job with a monthly €1800 take home starting pay rising to €2500 after 3 years and plenty of promotion chances where they can earn even more. I find this completely mind boggling.

[Hibbyradge]

Occasionally we employ Brits over here on 1 year contracts that will get extended providing they can pass a basic German language test after 12 months. Most of them don't last 6 months as the majority have disciplinary issues within the probationary period and are launched and those who who survive probation fall at the language hurdle because they can't be bothered to make the effort.

I'd understand if it was low paid lackey work but it's a decent job with €1800 take home starting pay rising to €2500 after 3 years and plenty of promotion chances where they can earn even more. I find this completely mind boggling.

Even €2500 a year wouldn't tempt me ...

[Fife-Hibee]

Even €2500 a year wouldn't tempt me ...

Give it a few more months. I've already got my cases packed. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Give it a few more months. I've already got my cases packed. :greengrin

You have a point :thumbsup:

[Ozyhibby]

I’ll assume you’re a white male living in Edinburgh for a minute, apologies if that’s not the case.

When’s the last time you had an Asian couple round for dinner at your place?

My parents are in their 70s. All of their friends and family are white. I don’t tjink they’ve ever had Asians or coloured people round for a meal, ever. Not because they are racist, they just don’t know any and therefore don’t socialise with them.

I’ve never seen one Asian person at our local bowling club.

Working men’s clubs? Predominantly white.

You rarely see Asian people at the cinema or when out for a meal or drinks.

How many go to ER regularly?

This isn’t the fault of the population of Edinburgh.

It’s simply that the two cultures are very different and do or like different things.

I don’t have many Asian friends but my kids do. They have no problem at all integrating with kids from all over the world and don’t give it a 2nd thought. People’s attitudes are changing all the time and for the better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

Agreed 100%.

These kids can’t vote labour though!

[Fife-Hibee]

Agreed 100%.

These kids can’t vote labour though!

Which is probably a good thing, considering their anti-EU position.

[SHODAN]

A good point about language.

I was on a bus in Edinburgh and a couple of Polish girls were chatting in Polish. Two old dearies in the seat in front of me were saying that they should be made to talk in English when they’re here.


You wouldn’t believe the tutting when I asked them if they only spoke Spanish on their summer holidays ��

I'm Scots-Polish and my fiancee is Greek-Albanian. If we ever get to the having kids stage, they'll have four potential nationalities and speak three languages. Stuff of nightmares for some, I'd imagine.

[ronaldo7]

Some good shenanigans during the budget today. Best of all was, Neil Findlay, who sent his budget speech to Scottish ministers before the debate started. Derek McKay, then printed it out and checked it as, Findlay spoke.

This guy is the best that, British labour in Scotland have.

He can't even read a train timetable or button his shirt up.😂😂

Good old nelly.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm Scots-Polish and my fiancee is Greek-Albanian. If we ever get to the having kids stage, they'll have four potential nationalities and speak three languages. Stuff of nightmares for some, I'd imagine.

Just make sure you can get nationality in one of those countries.

I'm first generation Polish, but my dad died in 2004 and I don't speak Polish so I can't apply for a Polish passport. :boo hoo:

[Hibrandenburg]

Even €2500 a year wouldn't tempt me ...

I was gonna say you don't tick any of our boxes anyway after meeting you in 2??? at the Norway v Scotland game in Oslo but couldn't find the year that the game took place. I'm guessing it was around 2004 but can't find any online result from the game. I think we won 3 or 4 nil but that result doesn't seem to be on record. Am I having a senior moment?

[Hibbyradge]

I was gonna say you don't tick any of our boxes anyway after meeting you in 2??? at the Norway v Scotland game in Oslo but couldn't find the year that the game took place. I'm guessing it was around 2004 but can't find any online result from the game. I think we won 3 or 4 nil but that result doesn't seem to be on record. Am I having a senior moment?

It was 2005.

We won 2-1 but Scotland bossed the game. Miller scored both.

Our midfield of Brown, Hartley and Fletcher were fabulous and we outclassed Norway to such an extent, I can understand why you thought it was a bigger scoreline.

My friend Trond is Norwegian but moved to Edinburgh when he was 18. He's over 70 now.

He translated the newspaper headline the next day.

It said "Out fought, Out played, Out sung". :greengrin

Edit: Didn't I get you a ticket?

[Hibrandenburg]

It was 2005.

We won 2-1 but Scotland bossed the game. Miller scored both.

Our midfield of Brown, Hartley and Fletcher were fabulous and we outclassed Norway to such an extent, I can understand why you thought it was a bigger scoreline.

My friend Trond is Norwegian but moved to Edinburgh when he was 18. He's over 70 now.

He translated the newspaper headline the next day.

It said "Out fought, Out played, Out sung". :greengrin

Edit: Didn't I get you a ticket?

Wow! I was utterly convinced we'd walked it at least 3-0. Must have been the wine me and the Mrs were drinking from a tetrapak that's wiped my memory.

Thanks again for the tickets HR :thumbsup:

[Bristolhibby]

It was 2005.

We won 2-1 but Scotland bossed the game. Miller scored both.

Our midfield of Brown, Hartley and Fletcher were fabulous and we outclassed Norway to such an extent, I can understand why you thought it was a bigger scoreline.

My friend Trond is Norwegian but moved to Edinburgh when he was 18. He's over 70 now.

He translated the newspaper headline the next day.

It said "Out fought, Out played, Out sung". :greengrin

Edit: Didn't I get you a ticket?

I missed that game but went there a couple of campaigns later in 2009 and got humped 4-0.

Bumped into a Hibs supporting Norwegian who spoke perfect English. He went to Uni In Edinburgh and ended up following the Hibs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8193604.stm

[Hibbyradge]

I missed that game but went there a couple of campaigns later in 2009 and got humped 4-0.

Bumped into a Hibs supporting Norwegian who spoke perfect English. He went to Uni In Edinburgh and ended up following the Hibs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8193604.stm

Yeah, I was at that game too, in the home section which was fine.

That may have been my mate you were talking to. Exactly the same story. How old was he. Or rather, how old did he look, lucky bassa that he is! 😁

[Fife-Hibee]

Not looking good for the labour hopeful.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1091762049099677697

[Beefster]

****ing Labour. Blowing it big time at the only time that a party will be able to stop the Tories killing the country. Unite union secretly working with the Tories and even parts of Momentum starting to question Corbyn. They’ll no doubt all make up again once we’re out of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

[Ozyhibby]

****ing Labour. Blowing it big time at the only time that a party will be able to stop the Tories killing the country. Unite union secretly working with the Tories and even parts of Momentum starting to question Corbyn. They’ll no doubt all make up again once we’re out of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

A centrist party has a good chance of success just now because it has a policy to get behind if it comes out for remain. Macron in France built his whole party in about 6 months. It would need some big hitters to get behind it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

A centrist party has a good chance of success just now because it has a policy to get behind if it comes out for remain. Macron in France built his whole party in about 6 months. It would need some big hitters to get behind it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not so sure. The Lib Dems are supposed to be the "centrist party for remain" and they're still a complete irrelevance.

[Ozyhibby]

Not so sure. The Lib Dems are supposed to be the "centrist party for remain" and they're still a complete irrelevance.

They have a brand problem since the coalition and they have an old tired set up.
A new party claiming to be fresh and with no baggage would stand a better chance. They need people like Chukka Umuna, Yvette Cooper, David Milliband and centrist Tories to sign up as well. The centre ground is where elections are won and if the tories move to the right and Labour to the left then there is a chance. They will have plenty money behind such a project.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

A centrist party has a good chance of success just now because it has a policy to get behind if it comes out for remain. Macron in France built his whole party in about 6 months. It would need some big hitters to get behind it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m with you on this. How people engage politically has changed massively in the last five or so years for a whole range of reasons. The genie is out of the bottle and straightforward two party politics doesn’t really hold up in the way it used to.

[Glory Lurker]

Centrist parties only move to the right.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17405325.blow-for-richard-leonard-as-leak-reveals-5000-labour-membership-slump-across-scotland/?ref=ebln

[Mibbes Aye]

Seeing reports coming through that her local CLP has withdrawn its vote of no confidence in Luciana Berger.

Luciana Berger is a known anti-Corbynite and was a suspect in their eyes as being part of a group planning to leave, in frustration at his leadership. As such she was seen as fair game for the Corbyn acolytes.

Just to make it more interesting however, Luciana Berger, who just happens to be Jewish, also has had death threats against her, to the extent that three people have been jailed as a consequence in separate incidents.

The withdrawal of the vote of no confidence appears hard on the heels of the Electoral Commission approving the formation of the Brexit Party, which offers a safer haven for disaffected Tory voters than UKIP, which is shifting further right all the time.

The cynic, nay the realist, in me thinks that with a potential fracture in the Tory vote, it is all the more important for Labour to avoid their own split, allowing them to capitalise on the turmoil in Conservative ranks.

I suspect pressure was put on those pushing to oust Berger from those who were happy to stand by and watch previously. And I get that, it’s politics.

There’s still the potential for a Labour split though, which suddenly introduces the prospect of a myriad of parties contesting one another. I’m not sure what that would mean, other than the prospect of continental-style grand coalitions and massive horse trading, but it sure would be fascinating.

[Just Alf]

Seeing reports coming through that her local CLP has withdrawn its vote of no confidence in Luciana Berger.

Luciana Berger is a known anti-Corbynite and was a suspect in their eyes as being part of a group planning to leave, in frustration at his leadership. As such she was seen as fair game for the Corbyn acolytes.

Just to make it more interesting however, Luciana Berger, who just happens to be Jewish, also has had death threats against her, to the extent that three people have been jailed as a consequence in separate incidents.

The withdrawal of the vote of no confidence appears hard on the heels of the Electoral Commission approving the formation of the Brexit Party, which offers a safer haven for disaffected Tory voters than UKIP, which is shifting further right all the time.

The cynic, nay the realist, in me thinks that with a potential fracture in the Tory vote, it is all the more important for Labour to avoid their own split, allowing them to capitalise on the turmoil in Conservative ranks.

I suspect pressure was put on those pushing to oust Berger from those who were happy to stand by and watch previously. And I get that, it’s politics.

There’s still the potential for a Labour split though, which suddenly introduces the prospect of a myriad of parties contesting one another. I’m not sure what that would mean, other than the prospect of continental-style grand coalitions and massive horse trading, but it sure would be fascinating.Your last paragraph is interesting, I'm pretty sure if May had created a cross party coalition to deliver Brexit then the Brexit project would actually be close to be getting delivered.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Seeing reports coming through that her local CLP has withdrawn its vote of no confidence in Luciana Berger.

Luciana Berger is a known anti-Corbynite and was a suspect in their eyes as being part of a group planning to leave, in frustration at his leadership. As such she was seen as fair game for the Corbyn acolytes.

Just to make it more interesting however, Luciana Berger, who just happens to be Jewish, also has had death threats against her, to the extent that three people have been jailed as a consequence in separate incidents.

The withdrawal of the vote of no confidence appears hard on the heels of the Electoral Commission approving the formation of the Brexit Party, which offers a safer haven for disaffected Tory voters than UKIP, which is shifting further right all the time.

The cynic, nay the realist, in me thinks that with a potential fracture in the Tory vote, it is all the more important for Labour to avoid their own split, allowing them to capitalise on the turmoil in Conservative ranks.

I suspect pressure was put on those pushing to oust Berger from those who were happy to stand by and watch previously. And I get that, it’s politics.

There’s still the potential for a Labour split though, which suddenly introduces the prospect of a myriad of parties contesting one another. I’m not sure what that would mean, other than the prospect of continental-style grand coalitions and massive horse trading, but it sure would be fascinating.

I agree the potential is there but it’s extremely hard to break through the UK electoral system. The SDP breakaway allied with libs almost matched the labour vote in 1983 but were miles behind in seats. UKIP were in double figures but couldn’t get an MP elected in a GE.

Edit: checked the numbers on 1983.

Vote share - Lab 27.6 SDP/Lib 25.4
Seats - Lab 209 SDP/Lib 23

[Mibbes Aye]

Your last paragraph is interesting, I'm pretty sure if May had created a cross party coalition to deliver Brexit then the Brexit project would actually be close to be getting delivered.

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I suspect you may be right. It is fascinating to conjecture. A split Labour with one party on Remain lines and one on Leave (and what’s clear is that while there was an entryist appetite for change in Labour many of them didn’t back Corbyn on the basis of Brexit).

Throw in a Tory party succumbing to an inevitable split along their European fault lines, with a rump of Remainers in one party and MPs and members potentially flocking towards a Brexit party.

Lib Dems as the untrusted but true flag bearers of Remain, UKIP as the increasingly far-right option now that their ‘moderates’ (I know) have jumped ship.

Scotland and Wales with nationalist parties where significant numbers of their membership were Leavers even if the majority and the leadership weren’t.

And Northern Ireland, where the DUP seem to want to exploit any situation they can if they can stay within just a shade of their old politics (ugly but hey, that’s politics) and Sinn Fein who have the numbers to influence key votes but aren’t there on principle (which their constituents knew fine well when they voted for them, so again, hey, that’s politics).

Gritty and interesting times to live in.

As an aside, the last time the Tories were ripping themselves apart in such a long journey into the night was the repeal of the Corn Laws in the 19th century. It’s a fascinating subject for anyone interested, in how the Tory leadership and party split over foreign and economic policy, changing the nation forever.

There are no shortage of books out there about it and I’ve read a tiny fraction of what content there is, but one I did enjoy most is Cheryl Schonhardt-Bailey’s account. It’s not a light read but it is marvellous.

[Mibbes Aye]

I agree the potential is there but it’s extremely hard to break through the UK electoral system. The SDP breakaway allied with libs almost matched the labour vote in 1983 but were miles behind in seats. UKIP were in double figures but couldn’t get an MP elected in a GE.

Edit: checked the numbers on 1983.

Vote share - Lab 27.6 SDP/Lib 25.4
Seats - Lab 209 SDP/Lib 23

I agree about the electoral system.

I think there was a step-change in 2010 when coalition government suddenly became real again, rather than alliances based on ‘confidence and supply’.

I think there has also been a step-change in voting habit or instinct, where people expect more of an issue-by-issue approach.

Thats not to say the two-party system is dead but for the first time in thirty years, Labour is truly riven in difference and for the last thirty years the Tories have managed barely to keep a lid on the simmering differences.

These things come to a head and I suspect that a lot of people don’t want to sign up to an entire slate of a party manifesto. Rather they want and expect to pick and choose, rightly or wrongly.

I’m not convinced there will be this absolute fragmentation but from an objective point of view and putting aside my own allegiances, it would be bloody interesting!

[Just Alf]

Agreed... I think! :-)

Less flippantly, I think its a very long time since politics have been so "interesting"



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

A new party offering remain and a centrist platform would have an excellent chance of winning power against a split Tory and Labour parties.
Previous failures like the SDP did not have a massive unifying issue which people would get behind above others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Colr]

A new party offering remain and a centrist platform would have an excellent chance of winning power against a split Tory and Labour parties.
Previous failures like the SDP did not have a massive unifying issue which people would get behind above others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In a PR system.

[Ozyhibby]

In a PR system.

Even without it. A party offering remain at a GE would be able to count on about 40% of the vote. With the other parties split that would be enough to put them in power comfortably.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Seeing reports coming through that her local CLP has withdrawn its vote of no confidence in Luciana Berger.

Luciana Berger is a known anti-Corbynite and was a suspect in their eyes as being part of a group planning to leave, in frustration at his leadership. As such she was seen as fair game for the Corbyn acolytes.

Just to make it more interesting however, Luciana Berger, who just happens to be Jewish, also has had death threats against her, to the extent that three people have been jailed as a consequence in separate incidents.

The withdrawal of the vote of no confidence appears hard on the heels of the Electoral Commission approving the formation of the Brexit Party, which offers a safer haven for disaffected Tory voters than UKIP, which is shifting further right all the time.

The cynic, nay the realist, in me thinks that with a potential fracture in the Tory vote, it is all the more important for Labour to avoid their own split, allowing them to capitalise on the turmoil in Conservative ranks.

I suspect pressure was put on those pushing to oust Berger from those who were happy to stand by and watch previously. And I get that, it’s politics.

There’s still the potential for a Labour split though, which suddenly introduces the prospect of a myriad of parties contesting one another. I’m not sure what that would mean, other than the prospect of continental-style grand coalitions and massive horse trading, but it sure would be fascinating.

The Guardian now pretty much confirming the hypothesis that the local party was pressured to drop the confidence vote, no surprises there.

It also emerges that one of Berger’s main critics in the local party called her a ‘disruptive Zionist’!

Tom Watson has called for the local party to be suspended while investigations take place.

Corbyn yet again is silent when it comes to issues of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, or should I rather say, people who have paid membership fees to be in the Labour Party.

[Tornadoes70]

Agreed... I think! :-)

Less flippantly, I think its a very long time since politics have been so "interesting"



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[1875godsgift]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Are you a heavy drinker?

[Tornadoes70]

Are you a heavy drinker?

Not really.

Just wish some would appreciate Hibs are a club that's not made up entirely of snp separatists or solely catholics. There's many a Hibs supporter who is neither or.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[1875godsgift]

Not really.

Just wish some would appreciate Hibs are a club that's not made up entirely of snp separatists or solely catholics. There's many a Hibs supporter who is neither or.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

I think most of us do realise that, but also acknowledge that by accepting diversity you have to respect other's views.

I'm sure you've made your own personal viewpoint obvious on a couple of occasions, and you've certainly done your bit to ensure the 'anti UK snp separatists'
don't monopolise the forums!

[marinello59]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/labour-withdraws-luciana-berger-mp-no-confidence-motion

Another shameful episode in a long standing problem that the leadership seem totally incapable of dealing with.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/labour-withdraws-luciana-berger-mp-no-confidence-motion

Another shameful episode in a long standing problem that the leadership seem totally incapable of dealing with.

I'm very much with Owen Jones on this. Solidarity with her is the only principled position to take.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism

The local party is being investigated, it will become apparent what actually has gone on over and above this 80 year old on Facebook. As Jones makes clear, this woman has had a terrible time from the far right in recent years.

[Bristolhibby]

I agree the potential is there but it’s extremely hard to break through the UK electoral system. The SDP breakaway allied with libs almost matched the labour vote in 1983 but were miles behind in seats. UKIP were in double figures but couldn’t get an MP elected in a GE.

Edit: checked the numbers on 1983.

Vote share - Lab 27.6 SDP/Lib 25.4
Seats - Lab 209 SDP/Lib 23

And that’s why we need Propotional Representation.

First Past The Post is dead. We need the Politics of coalition and compromise if we want to keep away from the far right or left.

J

[The Modfather]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

You added more to the debates when you were bot like posting about Richard Leonard.

[Just Alf]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!


The amount of times you post in the "political" threads seem to indicate you think the opposite of what you've posted!

[CropleyWasGod]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Leaving the politics aside, that's quite an accusation against the admins. Do you really mean that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

One word in your post stands out more than any other

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm very much with Owen Jones on this. Solidarity with her is the only principled position to take.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism

The local party is being investigated, it will become apparent what actually has gone on over and above this 80 year old on Facebook. As Jones makes clear, this woman has had a terrible time from the far right in recent years.

I read that article by Jones and thought it was terrible.

Despite the headline he spends more time essentially criticising Berger for being anti-Corbyn and therefore justifying deselection than he does denouncing antisemitism, which let’s face it, he can’t not do.

He’s an appalling writer - a combination of grade-A narcissism and A-level politics.

[lapsedhibee]

I read that article by Jones and thought it was terrible.

Despite the headline he spends more time essentially criticising Berger for being anti-Corbyn and therefore justifying deselection than he does denouncing antisemitism, which let’s face it, he can’t not do.

He’s an appalling writer - a combination of grade-A narcissism and A-level politics.

And even worse live in the TV studio.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Not really.

Just wish some would appreciate Hibs are a club that's not made up entirely of snp separatists or solely catholics. There's many a Hibs supporter who is neither or.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Im a Christened Protestant. Turned to committed Atheist, someone who pretty much hates the UK, thinks SNP are good for Scotland whether they ever get Independence or not. Ive emigrated, and have been a Hibs supporter since 1967.

[Fife-Hibee]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Remind me. Why were the SNP "held hostage by a small band of greens"? :cb

[Ozyhibby]

I read that article by Jones and thought it was terrible.

Despite the headline he spends more time essentially criticising Berger for being anti-Corbyn and therefore justifying deselection than he does denouncing antisemitism, which let’s face it, he can’t not do.

He’s an appalling writer - a combination of grade-A narcissism and A-level politics.

Agree 100%. A tiresome individual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Of all the threads on hibs.net, you had to pick this one to denounce the SNP.

As you said...YAWN

[Pete]

And even worse live in the TV studio.

I think that’s more to do with him being interrupted, shouted down and talked over more than anyone else. Newsnight was a classic example where the two other guests got off extremely lightly compared to Owen. I completely disagree with the disparaging remarks others have made about him but think he could be more assertive and forceful when dealing with hosts and other panelists.

Maybe his performance would have looked better if he didn’t spend half his time condemning anti-semitism in both the Labour Party (*cough* exaggerated *cough*) and wider society. He’ll never please some people though. 😉

[Pete]

Of all the threads on hibs.net, you had to pick this one to denounce the SNP.

As you said...YAWN

That’s a bit rich considering you’ve denounced Labour in nearly every thread you’ve posted in on this board. 😂

[Fife-Hibee]

That’s a bit rich considering you’ve denounced Labour in nearly every thread you’ve posted in on this board. 😂

It's far too easy to denounce Labour these days. You simply have to talk about them and what they do. (:

[Pete]

It's far too easy to denounce Labour these days. You simply have to talk about them and what they do. (:

Far too much denouncing going on in general imo. 😕

[Fife-Hibee]

Far too much denouncing going on in general imo. 😕

Labour's problem is that it can't and won't stop blaming everybody else for their downfall. They've taken the vote in Scotland for granted and now they simply expect to get it. But more and more people in Scotland are spending more time than ever watching parties like a hawk. So they see the underhanded tactics being deployed by Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland to try and crawl their way back.

Do you ever watch the FMQs or Holyrood debates? Calling Labour a shambles would be a complete understatement i'm afraid.

[Hiber-nation]

Labour's problem is that it can't and won't stop blaming everybody else for their downfall. They've taken the vote in Scotland for granted and now they simply expect to get it. But more and more people in Scotland are spending more time than ever watching parties like a hawk. So they see the underhanded tactics being deployed by Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland to try and crawl their way back.

Do you ever watch the FMQs or Holyrood debates? Calling Labour a shambles would be a complete understatement i'm afraid.

I know 4 Labour party members (just) and they all say the party is a shambles.

[Pete]

Labour's problem is that it can't and won't stop blaming everybody else for their downfall. They've taken the vote in Scotland for granted and now they simply expect to get it. But more and more people in Scotland are spending more time than ever watching parties like a hawk. So they see the underhanded tactics being deployed by Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland to try and crawl their way back.

Do you ever watch the FMQs or Holyrood debates? Calling Labour a shambles would be a complete understatement i'm afraid.

I do watch them but I mainly take policies into consideration and right now the Labour Party, in its current guise, offers up the best way forward.

I’m less bothered about flags and smart-***** winning arguments and more bothered about social justice.

[Pete]

I know 4 Labour party members (just) and they all say the party is a shambles.

I’ll bet you one million dollars that all four are Blairites.

[lapsedhibee]

I think that’s more to do with him being interrupted, shouted down and talked over more than anyone else. Newsnight was a classic example where the two other guests got off extremely lightly compared to Owen. I completely disagree with the disparaging remarks others have made about him but think he could be more assertive and forceful when dealing with hosts and other panelists.

Maybe his performance would have looked better if he didn’t spend half his time condemning anti-semitism in both the Labour Party (*cough* exaggerated *cough*) and wider society. He’ll never please some people though. 😉

He and Rebecca Longwinded-Bailey must be the two most-in-love-with-their-own-voices on the tellybox at the moment. Can't think of anyone else who comes close.

[Fife-Hibee]

I do watch them but I mainly take policies into consideration and right now the Labour Party, in its current guise, offers up the best way forward.

I’m less bothered about flags and smart-***** winning arguments and more bothered about social justice.

Which labour policies are they offering which you would consider good for Scotland and how are they funded?

Remember, Scottish Labour didn't put forward one single economic proposal to the Scottish Government. Despite complaining about the current one.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’ll bet you one million dollars that all four are Blairites.

In fairness, when Blair first went up against a discredited, unpopular and riven Tory administration he won the general election with a majority of 179 seats.

When Corbyn did it, we ended up with the Tories leading Labour by 55 seats and three-quarter of a million votes.

The latest Ipsos MORI poll only has Labour as neck-and-neck with this absolute car crash of a government.

YouGov have the Tories with a seven-point lead.

I don’t think we have Blairites anymore, not in a philosophical sense, times have moved on, though maybe it still exists in that to effect change one has to have power.

Regardless, they’re right - it’s a shambles.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’ll bet you one million dollars that all four are Blairites.

Which is another issue. Even if Labour did have economically viable policies that were fully funded (which they don't). They would never get them through the House of Commons against Conservative MPs and half of the Labour Party made up of blairites.

Even worse for Labour, if they split in 2. Neither party will ever get into power under the FPTP system, which the Conservatives would simply never change to remain in power for many years to come.

[Mibbes Aye]

Which is another issue. Even if Labour did have economically viable policies that were fully funded (which they don't). They would never get them through the House of Commons against Conservative MPs and half of the Labour Party made up of blairites.

Even worse for Labour, if they split in 2. Neither party will ever get into power under the FPTP system, which the Conservatives would simply never change to remain in power for many years to come.

You are funny.

Your first paragraph is funny because it tells us more about you and your understanding of politics than it does of anything else.

As for your second paragraph, it demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of Labour history. The Labour movement existed long before the party was founded and has always been a difficult and tenuous alliance of differing factions. I struggle to think of any time in its post-war history when there hasn’t been internecine conflict within the ranks. What is fascinating is that unlike the Tories, where essentially it is pretty much about Europe, within Labour the splits have been for various reasons.

The world evolves though. Until 2010 we were assured we would never have European-style coalition government. I think that regardless of whether there is a split in the PLP or the Tories, or both, there will be some form of agreement or compromise between the factions to try and ensure electoral success on a coalition basis.

Because when it comes down to it, Yvette Cooper has slightly more in common with John McDonnell than she does with Jacob Rees-Mogg. And he has slightly more in common with Dominic Grieve than he does with Emily Thornberry.

[Fife-Hibee]

You are funny.

Your first paragraph is funny because it tells us more about you and your understanding of politics than it does of anything else.

As for your second paragraph, it demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of Labour history. The Labour movement existed long before the party was founded and has always been a difficult and tenuous alliance of differing factions. I struggle to think of any time in its post-war history when there hasn’t been internecine conflict within the ranks. What is fascinating is that unlike the Tories, where essentially it is pretty much about Europe, within Labour the splits have been for various reasons.

The world evolves though. Until 2010 we were assured we would never have European-style coalition government. I think that regardless of whether there is a split in the PLP or the Tories, or both, there will be some form of agreement or compromise between the factions to try and ensure electoral success on a coalition basis.

Because when it comes down to it, Yvette Cooper has slightly more in common with John McDonnell than she does with Jacob Rees-Mogg. And he has slightly more in common with Dominic Grieve than he does with Emily Thornberry.

It's not that simple though.

Anybody who understands the FPTP system knows that a party split would be extremely dangerous. Having a Labour MP and some Labour break off MP contesting the same seat in the same area would almost guarantee that the tory MP would win that seat.

A coalition between Labour and break off Labour would not make up the numbers in parliament because of this. The tories would end up with 400+ seats due to divided Labour votes over all of the constituencies.

There's nothing funny about it. The (failed to make the tory grade) blairites in the Labour Party know this will be the case and are more than happy for this to be the ultimate outcome.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's not that simple though.

Anybody who understands the FPTP system knows that a party split would be extremely dangerous. Having a Labour MP and some Labour break off MP contesting the same seat in the same area would almost guarantee that the tory MP would win that seat.

A coalition between Labour and break off Labour would not make up the numbers in parliament because of this. The tories would end up with 400+ seats due to divided votes over all of the constituencies.

There's nothing funny about it. The (failed to make the tory grade) blairites in the Labour Party know this would be the case and are more than happy for this to be the ultimate outcome.

Your last paragraph sort of undermines any sense that you can look at things objectively.

Were there to be a split, bitter as it may be, I would still expect pragmatism to prevail. Sitting MPs of either faction would go unchallenged and there would be horse-trading regarding the unheld seats.

I would expect the same from the Tories if they split.

The more important point in all this is that the old system is and has been slowly and surely fragmenting and it is up to politicians to move with the times.

I think I said in a previous post that people won’t agree with the full slate of a manifesto but importantly, they increasingly expect the right to pick and choose. That raises big questions for the party system we have had for so many years.

[Pete]

Because when it comes down to it, Yvette Cooper has slightly more in common with John McDonnell than she does with Jacob Rees-Mogg. And he has slightly more in common with Dominic Grieve than he does with Emily Thornberry.

:agree:

[RyeSloan]

Your last paragraph sort of undermines any sense that you can look at things objectively.

Were there to be a split, bitter as it may be, I would still expect pragmatism to prevail. Sitting MPs of either faction would go unchallenged and there would be horse-trading regarding the unheld seats.

I would expect the same from the Tories if they split.

The more important point in all this is that the old system is and has been slowly and surely fragmenting and it is up to politicians to move with the times.

I think I said in a previous post that people won’t agree with the full slate of a manifesto but importantly, they increasingly expect the right to pick and choose. That raises big questions for the party system we have had for so many years.

I’ve not looked at the numbers so I’m assuming but I would have thought that after coalition destroying the Lib Dem’s (so not really advancing the thought of it working in the UK) and the demise of UKIP that the last general election resulted in more of a two party parliament than many before it no?

[Fife-Hibee]

Your last paragraph sort of undermines any sense that you can look at things objectively.

Were there to be a split, bitter as it may be, I would still expect pragmatism to prevail. Sitting MPs of either faction would go unchallenged and there would be horse-trading regarding the unheld seats.

I would expect the same from the Tories if they split.

The more important point in all this is that the old system is and has been slowly and surely fragmenting and it is up to politicians to move with the times.

I think I said in a previous post that people won’t agree with the full slate of a manifesto but importantly, they increasingly expect the right to pick and choose. That raises big questions for the party system we have had for so many years.

Sorry, but i'm not convinced. If they can't find middle ground now as a single party, I can't see them finding middle ground as 2 separate entities. As much as I loathe the Conservatives, they are disciplined in the extreme. They put their party above all else and even when they have disagreements, they still fall pretty much perfectly in line when ordered to when it comes to voting in parliament.

Labour don't have that now and they certainly wouldn't have it as 2 seperate parties. Even if by some miracle they did manage to organize a scenario where they could make up the numbers together, the coalition would be in tatters very quickly.

[ronaldo7]

That’s a bit rich considering you’ve denounced Labour in nearly every thread you’ve posted in on this board. 😂

I'm glad to see since I posted, the thread has got back on track and is discussing the future of the Labor party. 😂

You can pm me with your evidence though. 😂

[Hibbyradge]

Far too much denouncing going on in general imo. 😕

I denounce the denouncers.

Oh, hang on ...

[jonty]

Never been less interesting imo.

Scotland is stuck in an snp downward spiral of being held hostage to a small band of 'greens' who have no interest in the environment but are a small offshoot of the snp who perpetually pretend to vote against the snp budget but who then yawn give in when the snp cave in to the greens demands.

All very boring and bound to end in tears soon, even Alex was so bored during the indy 'campaign' it might have been too much and he was busy in other exploits.

Whats so alarming to me is that there is a huge number of Hibs fans that are non snp who find it crazy that real debate on here is very soon dubbed out by the admins due to the bunch of snp fanatics on here.

Hibs are a football club open to all and disparate open debate not just a small band of anti UK snp separatists who are allowed to monopolise the forums

Mon the Cabbage!!!

The fact that you're on here posting your condescending tripe flies in the face of your accusations.


What evidence do you have that the Greens are a small offshoot of the SNP?
When the SNP have conceded (caved-in) to the Greens demands, how are they (the Greens) giving in?
How do you know there are a huge number of Hibs fans who are non-snp? Have you canvassed them all? Was there a poll? (It couldn't have been an online poll, as I've yet to find any other hibs fans site/community with thousands of posters)
How do you know said fans find it crazy that debate is dubbed out? (You'd think all fans would find that crazy)
I'm assuming you have factual evidence of said debates being dubbed out?
You have evidence of admins being a bunch of snp fanatics, or bending to the will of snp fanatics?
If you find that in your opinion the anti-UK snp separatists who are monopolising the forums, then you could always find another forum. Alternatively enter into debate and give a balanced view.





or simply continue posting early morning drivel which, even after 5 edits, is utter bollocks.

[Ozyhibby]

You are funny.

Your first paragraph is funny because it tells us more about you and your understanding of politics than it does of anything else.

As for your second paragraph, it demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of Labour history. The Labour movement existed long before the party was founded and has always been a difficult and tenuous alliance of differing factions. I struggle to think of any time in its post-war history when there hasn’t been internecine conflict within the ranks. What is fascinating is that unlike the Tories, where essentially it is pretty much about Europe, within Labour the splits have been for various reasons.

The world evolves though. Until 2010 we were assured we would never have European-style coalition government. I think that regardless of whether there is a split in the PLP or the Tories, or both, there will be some form of agreement or compromise between the factions to try and ensure electoral success on a coalition basis.

Because when it comes down to it, Yvette Cooper has slightly more in common with John McDonnell than she does with Jacob Rees-Mogg. And he has slightly more in common with Dominic Grieve than he does with Emily Thornberry.

All parties are already coalitions. Holding them together is the hardest thing and it is what the Tories have been the most successful at for the last 100 years. They are much more willing to compromise to win power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hiber-nation]

I’ll bet you one million dollars that all four are Blairites.

I'm not betting you anything but they all hate Blair.

[Jack Hackett]

All parties are already coalitions. Holding them together is the hardest thing and it is what the Tories have been the most successful at for the last 100 years. They are much more willing to compromise to win power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree:

... and got us exactly where we are today

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-15/could-a-seemingly-inevitable-split-in-the-labour-party-be-the-next-outcome-of-brexit/

Split due soon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-15/could-a-seemingly-inevitable-split-in-the-labour-party-be-the-next-outcome-of-brexit/

Split due soon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hopefully it is the ERG that splits from the Tory party first

[Ozyhibby]

Hopefully it is the ERG that splits from the Tory party first

I doubt it. If anything it will be centrists who leave the Tory party. The ERG (much like the hard left with Labour) form the majority of the membership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

At least 4 resignation expected today

[JeMeSouviens]

At least 4 resignation expected today

Sigh, seems like a bit of self indulgent fighting about deck chair arrangements ...

[Moulin Yarns]

Backbench MPs

[Hibbyradge]

7 MPs leave the Labour Party.

- @ChukaUmunna
- @MikeGapes
- @lucianaberger
- @anncoffey_mp
- @ChrisLeslieMP
- @gavinshuker
- @angelasmithmp

[Curried]

Some comedy gold for the Red Tories in London this morning :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

They all come across well. Some quite emotional.

[JeMeSouviens]

They all come across well. Some quite emotional.

... but have arguably made it easier for Corbyn to dig in his opposition to ref#2.

[Curried]

Labour is a racist anti-semetic organisation according to these 7 stalwarts of democracy! I suggest they're a flecking bunch of hypocrites trying to look after their own *****.

[Fife-Hibee]

Labour is a racist anti-semetic organisation according to these 7 stalwarts of democracy! I suggest they're a flecking bunch of hypocrites trying to look after their own *****.

If you oppose zionism and refuse to get on board with the israeli apartheid agenda, you're a Hitler/Nazi sympathizer who longs for the return of the gas chambers.

It's a narrative that's been getting pushed for quite some time now. It's used to guilt trip and shame people into backing their regime.

[Curried]

If you oppose zionism and refuse to get on board with the israeli apartheid agenda, you're a Hitler/Nazi sympathizer who longs for the return of the gas chambers.

It's a narrative that's been getting pushed for quite some time now. It's used to guilt trip and shame people into backing their regime.


:agree: 100%. Luciana Berger getting all upset about the Labour party talking to the Palestinians. How very dare they!

[Moulin Yarns]

Ian Murray


https://twitter.com/Rajdeep1/status/1097451728872620032?s=19

[Hiber-nation]

They all come across well. Some quite emotional.

I am sure they genuinely are. The Labour Party's handling of antisemitism and Brexit has been appalling and it's good to see some action being taken.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ian Murray


https://twitter.com/Rajdeep1/status/1097451728872620032?s=19

I imagine he was all set to join until he saw the new group name. :wink:

[hibsbollah]

7 MPs leave the Labour Party.

- @ChukaUmunna
- @MikeGapes
- @lucianaberger
- @anncoffey_mp
- @ChrisLeslieMP
- @gavinshuker
- @angelasmithmp

Thanks for the good times, but we're keeping the house.

[CropleyWasGod]

Gavin Shuker will be a big loss.

Not. :rolleyes:

[Curried]

The Independent Group.... LOL. Come on Kes, come on Murray you know you want to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyT9jTW7MHc

[Lendo]

The Independent Group.... LOL. Come on Kes, come on Murray you know you want to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyT9jTW7MHc

No chance of IM joining them. The many is happy riding the Labour gravy train and not having to have a position on anything other than "SNP = bad".