The future of the Labour Party

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour MP Dan Norris arrested on suspicion of rape | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/25067278.labour-mp-dan-norris-arrested-suspicion-rape/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457&u=8c7cbcbaa1741d7cbc339fe13eff0274&date=050425)

A LABOUR MP has been suspended from the party after being arrested on suspicion of rape and child sexual offences.

Dan Norris, Labour MP for North East Somerset and Hanham, was arrested on Friday over claims of historic sexual offences against a girl, rape, child abduction and misconduct in a public office.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250406/6b43a8c39f5e3ee2ea8e8958ffba36ba.png


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[grunt]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250406/6b43a8c39f5e3ee2ea8e8958ffba36ba.png


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTell me that's not real!

[Hibrandenburg]

Tell me that's not real!

Thought the same, but it's in the Times. Talk about not being able to read the room.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Tell me that's not real!


in The Times on saturday

[JimBHibees]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250406/6b43a8c39f5e3ee2ea8e8958ffba36ba.png


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He is genuinely horrific

[grunt]

https://skwawkbox.org/2025/04/07/starmer-confirms-2030-new-petrol-diesel-vehicle-ban-but-exempts-ultra-wealthys-polluting-supercars/

Starmer confirms 2030 new petrol/diesel vehicle ban – but exempts ultra-wealthy’s polluting ‘supercars’



Keir Starmer has today confirmed that the government will proceed with a ban on new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 onward, forcing people to buy electric vehicles despite ongoing concerns about safety and the risk of batteries bursting into flames.

However, he has also confirmed that supercars – like £200,000+ McLarens, Bentleys, Aston Martins and others, which incidentally pollute twice as much or more as an ordinary car – are exempted from the ban, supposedly because fewer of those are sold because of the astronomical price tag.

So while the rest of the country is forced to buy electric cars that might have safety issues, to hunt around for charging points or bargain with a neighbour if they don’t have a driveway to charge overnight, and to live with the far more limited range and long refill times of electric vehicles, the ultra-wealthy will be laughing as they shoot past the poor saps reliant on batteries.Not sure what safety issues they are referring to, but the overall message stinks.

[Ozyhibby]

https://skwawkbox.org/2025/04/07/starmer-confirms-2030-new-petrol-diesel-vehicle-ban-but-exempts-ultra-wealthys-polluting-supercars/

Starmer confirms 2030 new petrol/diesel vehicle ban – but exempts ultra-wealthy’s polluting ‘supercars’


Not sure what safety issues they are referring to, but the overall message stinks.

Labour, the party of the working man.[emoji849][emoji23]


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[Bostonhibby]

Labour, the party of the working man.[emoji849][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkListened to that, he appears genuinely lost.

Not much a tual British manufacturing that he can protect though

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[Ozyhibby]

Listened to that, he appears genuinely lost.

Not much a tual British manufacturing that he can protect though

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UK car manufacturers saying they never saw electric cars coming.[emoji849] If they are that stupid then I don’t see what us protecting them with subsidies will do other than make us all poorer?


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[Bostonhibby]

UK car manufacturers saying they never saw electric cars coming.[emoji849] If they are that stupid then I don’t see what us protecting them with subsidies will do other than make us all poorer?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI agree.

Not that there are many manufacturers where the profit actually stays in the UK.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/490151344_10231624625151162_2615490581729618458_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=-an7jmawHOcQ7kNvwFOcjuv&_nc_oc=Adn-iTAMJSGuMou5bTsR7rCJSQVAHamH5UIBuZOCZZas8c7DWbcu-oqotIRb1ZUQ-Og&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=dcQcicdb61V_tqQ-ptl1pw&oh=00_AfGiGROOV-F8IkmS3B5yqaDb2-_bfC8f2KLF9k6wle72Ng&oe=67FC837F

[cabbageandribs1875]

wow very surprised at the Daily Record printing this

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/490412057_9619287348128010_8684869472633722777_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=gxp-zMUM_ZUQ7kNvwFdLfV2&_nc_oc=AdlF1qop-kvog-Onjx9k1gp4kqwBQMEPWfQYVkQdR7lI2c2oUAdPc9G0FzJHhPbb OIY&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=wDsSBsZKKvF_Cqr-KApDXA&oh=00_AfHn9QO03P5LOYlFnFqDSqlG7FqDIXdDlKu5mJTE3ics xQ&oe=67FC776E Scottish News > Universal Credit

[cabbageandribs1875]

it's what right wing Governments do Bernie Boy....hit the weakest in society :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/489909967_1248955969933211_2665251541039447431_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_tt6&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=w-KfED42vq8Q7kNvwElQJJj&_nc_oc=AdlqCz4XLSSDzHgQWjolzSDmsWRpvJfGPIaB4dJAg7T 1GkRiS0jmfBDLrxeFe_gcpjI&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&_nc_gid=3l_HOflIBAQ7JLjEW_jlrw&oh=00_AfHSGIZJtH2JT9_22GTqk_XroXRfQkELjb2XgPeJat6I qg&oe=67FCBB60

[grunt]

Labour paying attention to the details

https://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/19313224/?type=mds-article-620

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/11/uk-economy-grows-gdp-tariff-war-donald-trump?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu
Some good news for Reeves and us.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx20jr8rjj2o

Happy to save Chinese owned British steel while letting grangemouth refinery close.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx20jr8rjj2o

Happy to save Chinese owned British steel while letting grangemouth refinery close.

Didn’t bother with Ravenscraig either. England is a different matter though.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Didn’t bother with Ravenscraig either. England is a different matter though.


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That's where the votes are. Easy choice really.

[Andy Bee]

Bathgate no more
Linwood no more
Grangemouth no more
Acorn no more
Ravenscraig no more
Ferguson pretty much no more
Anymore for anymore?

If Charlie and Craig updates this tune it could actually blow Marillions Grendel out the water on runtime.

[jamie_1875]

The Scottish Government has banned new combustion engines so petrol and diesel cars from 2030 and the UK Government the same from 2035, more and more people are buying EV cars so why would you nationalise a declining industry and a refinery that manufactures petrol and diesel? Policy of Governments is playing a big part here.

[Ozyhibby]

https://edconway.substack.com/p/the-strange-unsettling-story-of-british

Worth a read on British Steel.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/scotnational.bsky.social/post/3lmmj6vehqz24


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250412/761b8d05e5f06ca5f6f1409c380da3e6.jpg


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[Andy Bee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250412/761b8d05e5f06ca5f6f1409c380da3e6.jpg


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The only main "British car" manufacturer left that I can think of is Morgan.

Edit - Scratch that, Morgan are owned by an Italian equity fund, Investindustrial but the family still own a minority shareholding.

[Jack]

The only main "British car" manufacturer left that I can think of is Morgan.

Edit - Scratch that, Morgan are owned by an Italian equity fund, Investindustrial but the family still own a minority shareholding.

There's very few 'traditional' British companies, or former nationalised companies, that can truly fly the flag.

I'd suggest a major contributing factor to where the country now finds itself.

[Andy Bee]

There's very few 'traditional' British companies, or former nationalised companies, that can truly fly the flag.

I'd suggest a major contributing factor to where the country now finds itself.

Yup, on a smaller scale it's why Scotland only has IIRC one unicorn business in Brewdog and England have IIRC 49. If investment is needed then first Scotland which is limited and then onto London, then Europe, then the US for the big cash.

[Moulin Yarns]

The only main "British car" manufacturer left that I can think of is Morgan.

Edit - Scratch that, Morgan are owned by an Italian equity fund, Investindustrial but the family still own a minority shareholding.

I think mclaren might be the only wholly British owned car company

[Ozyhibby]

It looks like a terrible idea. We are not taking ownership but we are paying all the bills to keep it running?


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[Andy Bee]

I think mclaren might be the only wholly British owned car company

It's owned by some royal in Abu Dhabi IIRC

[Bostonhibby]

It looks like a terrible idea. We are not taking ownership but we are paying all the bills to keep it running?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI agree, our "infrastructure" industries are generally in the wrong hands to be operating in a way that puts the wider country and national interest first, this is an unfortunate stunt that is untenable in the long run. In the 2nd reading in the HOL they suggested a long stop before just endlessly throwing money at a loss making model, because the bill didn't seem to say what the end game was, and when.

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[Jones28]

I think mclaren might be the only wholly British owned car company

Noble?

[grunt]

https://metro-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/metro.co.uk/2025/04/13/arrest-warrant-issued-for-labour-mp-tulip-siddiq-on-corruption-charges-22900501/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17445658442619&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fmetro.co.uk%2F2025%2F04%2F1 3%2Farrest-warrant-issued-for-labour-mp-tulip-siddiq-on-corruption-charges-22900501%2F

An arrest warrant has been issued for Labour MP Tulip Siddiq (https://metro.co.uk/2025/01/14/anti-corruption-minister-tulip-siddiq-quits-government-ethics-investigation-22360865/) on corruption charges in Bangladesh three months after resigning as an anti-corruption minister.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cammy Day cleared of criminality

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c89geq3q58vo

[jamie_1875]

Good post from Paul Sweeney cutting through the political games and responding to Stephen Flynn (who has mentioned Grangemouth twice in parliament the last few years before the last few days)

"The Labour government is investing an additional £200 million in a transition plan for refining at Grangemouth in the space of just 9 months. It has also guaranteed full pay for all refinery workers for the next 18 months to help manage the affected workers into new industrial roles at the complex.

The SNP government has known that oil refining in Scotland was under threat for at least 5 years but equivocated until the Chinese state-owned joint venture made its final decision in September.

Crude oil refining is also only one core operation within the wider world-scale Grangemouth petrochemical manufacturing cluster.

There are seven crude oil refineries currently operating in the UK. Grangemouth is the oldest one still operating. The refinery started operations in 1924 and has a Nelson Complexity Index (NCI) of 6.8. The UK average is 9. The European average is 7.6. American and Asian refineries are typically over 10. The refinery at Grangemouth would need to be rebuilt from the ground up and on a much larger scale to be competitive globally.

46% of Grangemouth Refinery's output is petrol and diesel. No new petrol or diesel cars will be sold in Britain after 2030.

Scunthorpe is the last steelworks in Britain with operational blast furnaces capable of primary steel production. If these two blast furnaces were allowed to go permanently cold in the coming days, the UK would become the only G7 nation to lose its basic steel production capability.

Scotland's last plate mill, Dalzell in Motherwell, is reliant on Scunthorpe to provide it with slab steel, which is then hot rolled into thinner plates for use in structural steel fabrication for projects like energy generation infrastructure, construction and shipbuilding.

Demand for these secondary steel products will likely increase substantially with new projects for wind, tidal, and nuclear energy in the coming years.

I have repeatedly asked the Scottish Government if it will actively support the redevelopment of integrated steelmaking in Scotland by advocating for the construction of an Electric Arc Furnace at the decommissioned Clydebridge Steelworks site in Cambuslang or at Dalzell. Their response was that it is a matter for the private sector.

Scotland and the UK needs a proactive, effective, coherent state-led plan for industrial development, and not opportunistic, simplistic, facile takes like this one"

[Ozyhibby]

Good post from Paul Sweeney cutting through the political games and responding to Stephen Flynn (who has mentioned Grangemouth twice in parliament the last few years before the last few days)

"The Labour government is investing an additional £200 million in a transition plan for refining at Grangemouth in the space of just 9 months. It has also guaranteed full pay for all refinery workers for the next 18 months to help manage the affected workers into new industrial roles at the complex.

The SNP government has known that oil refining in Scotland was under threat for at least 5 years but equivocated until the Chinese state-owned joint venture made its final decision in September.

Crude oil refining is also only one core operation within the wider world-scale Grangemouth petrochemical manufacturing cluster.

There are seven crude oil refineries currently operating in the UK. Grangemouth is the oldest one still operating. The refinery started operations in 1924 and has a Nelson Complexity Index (NCI) of 6.8. The UK average is 9. The European average is 7.6. American and Asian refineries are typically over 10. The refinery at Grangemouth would need to be rebuilt from the ground up and on a much larger scale to be competitive globally.

46% of Grangemouth Refinery's output is petrol and diesel. No new petrol or diesel cars will be sold in Britain after 2030.

Scunthorpe is the last steelworks in Britain with operational blast furnaces capable of primary steel production. If these two blast furnaces were allowed to go permanently cold in the coming days, the UK would become the only G7 nation to lose its basic steel production capability.

Scotland's last plate mill, Dalzell in Motherwell, is reliant on Scunthorpe to provide it with slab steel, which is then hot rolled into thinner plates for use in structural steel fabrication for projects like energy generation infrastructure, construction and shipbuilding.

Demand for these secondary steel products will likely increase substantially with new projects for wind, tidal, and nuclear energy in the coming years.

I have repeatedly asked the Scottish Government if it will actively support the redevelopment of integrated steelmaking in Scotland by advocating for the construction of an Electric Arc Furnace at the decommissioned Clydebridge Steelworks site in Cambuslang or at Dalzell. Their response was that it is a matter for the private sector.

Scotland and the UK needs a proactive, effective, coherent state-led plan for industrial development, and not opportunistic, simplistic, facile takes like this one"

Still closing Grangemouth though? Saving Steel plants down south no problem though.[emoji106]


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[jamie_1875]

Still closing Grangemouth though? Saving Steel plants down south no problem though.[emoji106]


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Did you read it? It's very clearly laid out why.

We talk about Trump supporters wanting simple answers to complex problems, the simple explanation seems to be it's a Scotland and England thing and Labour hates Scotland while the complex answer is obviously way more...well complicated.

[Jack]

Did you read it? It's very clearly laid out why.

We talk about Trump supporters wanting simple answers to complex problems, the simple explanation seems to be it's a Scotland and England thing and Labour hates Scotland while the complex answer is obviously way more...well complicated.

It's clearly laid out that there's been insufficient investment been made at Grangemouth to keep pace with modern facilities elsewhere.

Perhaps allowing foreign billionaires to make us their bitch was a flawed strategy, was a comment I saw elsewhere. It kinda reflects Westminster's neglect of British industries in general and shows little sign of abating.

[jamie_1875]

It's clearly laid out that there's been insufficient investment been made at Grangemouth to keep pace with modern facilities elsewhere.

Perhaps allowing foreign billionaires to make us their bitch was a flawed strategy, was a comment I saw elsewhere. It kinda reflects Westminster's neglect of British industries in general and shows little sign of abating.

I agree, so all this Labour are only ignoring Grangemouth because it's in Scotland is just made up grievance.

[grunt]

Good post from Paul Sweeney ...
There's no such thing as a good post from Paul Sweeney. He's an idiot and a liar.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree, so all this Labour are only ignoring Grangemouth because it's in Scotland is just made up grievance.

So why did Labour tell the people of Scotland they would save the plant?


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[Andy Bee]

Did you read it? It's very clearly laid out why.

We talk about Trump supporters wanting simple answers to complex problems, the simple explanation seems to be it's a Scotland and England thing and Labour hates Scotland while the complex answer is obviously way more...well complicated.

I nearly didn't bother reading it after the "good post from Paul Sweeney" remark, that's the so called Labour MSP who was over the moon his weapons shares had rocketed (no pun intended) over news of the Gaza conflict. The £200m is joint funding between the National Wealth fund and the private sector i.e. more "foreign billionaires looking to make us our bitch". The funding will not be unlocked until private sector money comes in. They wont clarify if it's a loan or a grant and they wont clarify if it includes previously already agreed funding like the £80m Growth Fund for Falkirk and Grangemouth, Dave Doogan MP has repeatedly tried to get clarification in Parliament without success. It's quite ironic that Paul Sweeney is bleating on about the SG not intervening when he himself and his party voted down the Scottish budget which included £25m for Grangemouth. He's the grifters grifter that boy.

[Andy Bee]

I agree, so all this Labour are only ignoring Grangemouth because it's in Scotland is just made up grievance.

Aye complete nonsense just like Acorn :hmmm:

[grunt]

So why did Labour tell the people of Scotland they would save the plant?
"You said you would save the jobs at the refinery, and you're not".


https://youtu.be/KQ8V6Uot5ck?si=Jidxd1HgTfRpp6uG

[jamie_1875]

So why did Labour tell the people of Scotland they would save the plant?


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I am guessing at the time they believed it, politicians do it all the time unfortunately. Reality tends to kick in though and all governments say things they don't deliver. Plenty of examples of that across the world.

[grunt]

I am guessing at the time they believed it, politicians do it all the time unfortunately. Reality tends to kick in though and all governments say things they don't deliver. Plenty of examples of that across the world.
:greengrin

[jamie_1875]

:greengrin

We will scrap the unfair council tax.

We will create a not for profit state owned energy company

We will dual the A9 by 2021

We create a new National Care Service

There will be an Independence referendum in October 2023


You get the picture though....

[grunt]

We will scrap the unfair council tax.

We will create a not for profit state owned energy company

We will dual the A9 by 2021

We create a new National Care Service

There will be an Independence referendum in October 2023


You get the picture though....

Yes I get the picture. None of those things were in their gift; they were wishes, objectives. Labour on the other hand won a majority in the election. They had the power to help Grangemouth and decided not to, despite Sarwar's campaign promises. Yes I get the picture.

[Kato]

I am guessing at the time they believed it,

That's a load of bollards.

To some degree or another politicians make promises which they know are tenuous at best or lies at worst. Saying "something,something,something Grangemouth" suited at the time but they more than likely know it was a tenuous promise, with a whole load of other stuff ahead of it in the queue. "Belief" is a very elastic word in the political world.



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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.left-horizons.com/2025/03/06/can-starmers-200m-save-grangemouth-refinery/

[grunt]

Labour councillor Frank McAveety arrested and charged in connection with fraud offences.

Expect the blue tents to be in place any time soon.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/apr/21/mps-second-jobs-parliament-guardian-analysis?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu

Remember the glory days when Labour said they would ban 2nd jobs for mp’s?[emoji849]


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[Bostonhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/apr/21/mps-second-jobs-parliament-guardian-analysis?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu

Remember the glory days when Labour said they would ban 2nd jobs for mp’s?[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBetter hope Reform don't get into power, Nigel (anywhere but Clacton) Farage will insist they have more jobs not less.

Agree though , another labour sound bite where there's been zero action so far.

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[grunt]

https://bylines.scot/politics/anas-sarwar-says-no-to-rejoining-key-eu-mechanisms/


In an interview with Glasgow Southside’s Glad Radio, Scottish Labour Party leader Anas Sarwar confirmed his support for Keir Starmer’s policy of the UK not seeking to rejoin the European Single Market or the Customs Union. “We will not rejoin the Single Market or the Customs Union” said the Glasgow area MSP

Why not?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250422/81c205a63a5958a5bc3c1d0e661eff0a.jpg
Sarwar looking to protect his company that definitely doesn’t have anything to do with.[emoji849]


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[Bishop Hibee]

“Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer does not believe transgender women are women, his official spokesman has said.” Better late than never I suppose.

[Jack]

“Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer does not believe transgender women are women, his official spokesman has said.” Better late than never I suppose.

I think he did the right thing on this occasion, delaying saying anything, knowing a Supreme Court ruling was inevitable. And he's a lawyer!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/23/uk-annual-borrowing-exceeds-forecasts-rachel-reeves?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu

They just can’t get control of the economy.


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[MKHIBEE]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/23/uk-annual-borrowing-exceeds-forecasts-rachel-reeves?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu

They just can’t get control of the economy.


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No doubt another load of savings being made from those who can least afford it.

[Bishop Hibee]

I think he did the right thing on this occasion, delaying saying anything, knowing a Supreme Court ruling was inevitable. And he's a lawyer!

He didn’t ’delay saying anything’ though. In 2022 he said ‘trans women are women’ and also it was wrong to say ‘only women have a cervix.’

[MKHIBEE]

He didn’t ’delay saying anything’ though. In 2022 he said ‘trans women are women’ and also it was wrong to say ‘only women have a cervix.’

The man is a slaver. Unfortunately he is also Prime Minister.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250430/d68c16bb6b3d07b71fa188d880226e41.png

Labour hoping to close universities now.


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[jamie_1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250430/d68c16bb6b3d07b71fa188d880226e41.png

Labour hoping to close universities now.


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I am guessing you do understand that's not policy and one man ranting? Or do you genuinely believe Labour are looking to close Universities?

[cabbageandribs1875]

the Real nasty party :agree: British Labour= shower of two-faced back-stabbing u-turning hypocritical ****s

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/494213375_9761620897227987_8343384636662115825_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=rOWc66uNnAQQ7kNvwHxGSKU&_nc_oc=Adln_f69fKIkjx4VqAEB4UyM9YCj6MeJqY-GBqVQ95mY2almGKSfnqjOyAG_p-uP_3A&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&_nc_gid=PXVrXSrrVzdONuTTJuLCDA&oh=00_AfF6OaG4ntTfR4YYPyRjGtQubpKEZhzDcYbzLNg1aRNc nQ&oe=6817DC07

[Ozyhibby]

I am guessing you do understand that's not policy and one man ranting? Or do you genuinely believe Labour are looking to close Universities?

Starmer is good at throwing people out the party he doesn’t agree with, wonder if this will even be commented on?


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[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250430/d68c16bb6b3d07b71fa188d880226e41.png

Labour hoping to close universities now.


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I agree with him. Too many of the polytechnics (Central Institutions in Scotland) became universities (1980s I think) and I personally dont think it was the right thing. Too many attempted to step up to university level when they should have stayed at the level they were, Further Education Colleges. It's led to too much competition between these universities for students when it should be competition for places at them.

And then there are the scam universities but I don't think that's what he was on about.

[jamie_1875]

Starmer is good at throwing people out the party he doesn’t agree with, wonder if this will even be commented on?


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It's not worthy of comment. Best ignored. It isn't Labour policy and never has been.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not worthy of comment. Best ignored. It isn't Labour policy and never has been.

You say it’s not but they are pursuing policies which will result in Universities closing.


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[jamie_1875]

You say it’s not but they are pursuing policies which will result in Universities closing.


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Are they, like what? Have you looked at what's happening in places like Dundee University, is that down to Labour policy?!

[Ozyhibby]

Are they, like what? Have you looked at what's happening in places like Dundee University, is that down to Labour policy?!

Universities are struggling because Labour are restricting visas for foreign students. That’s Labour policy.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/all-oil-refining-in-scotland-ends-as-grangemouth-operation-ceases

All oil, petrol and diesel faces an extra 250 miles to reach Edinburgh. What effect will that have on prices?

Thanks starmer and sarwar for the promise of saving grangemouth refinery!!

[Smartie]

Are they, like what? Have you looked at what's happening in places like Dundee University, is that down to Labour policy?!

They're struggling primarily because of Brexit and the challenges to funding resulting from that.

The SNP have attempted to mitigate the damage caused by Brexit and are attempting to keep higher education accessible for working class Scots. This hasn't been successful and there are subsequent huge pressures on some academic institutions. Dundee are particularly exposed because of the proportion of students who go there who are from Scotland relative to other instutions.

Labour have never kicked back at the lunacy of Brexit and couldn't give a stuff about either the working class or Scotland going by their actions since coming into power.

The biggest argument (a fair one, I had thought, and one I was prepared to accept) against Scottish independence whilst the Tories was that it would be better under Labour. That is being shown up on a daily basis to be utter garbage.

[jamie_1875]

Universities are struggling because Labour are restricting visas for foreign students. That’s Labour policy.


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It was Tory policy that yes Labour have continued with for now. It was the restriction of foreign students bringing across their family with them under the same Visa if I remember correctly.

But not sure where you get your numbers from.

"Applications by international students to UK universities have been revitalised in a welcome boost for the sector’s ailing financial health by the Labour government’s “change of tone” on immigration since the general election.

Vice-chancellors and admissions officers said a rise in the number of inquiries about courses and feedback from overseas recruitment agents suggested that the change in the government’s stance since the 4 July election had been widely noticed by potential international students and their families."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/sep/07/labour-change-of-tone-revives-foreign-students-interest-in-uk-universities?CMP=share_btn_url

[jamie_1875]

They're struggling primarily because of Brexit and the challenges to funding resulting from that.

The SNP have attempted to mitigate the damage caused by Brexit and are attempting to keep higher education accessible for working class Scots. This hasn't been successful and there are subsequent huge pressures on some academic institutions. Dundee are particularly exposed because of the proportion of students who go there who are from Scotland relative to other instutions.

Labour have never kicked back at the lunacy of Brexit and couldn't give a stuff about either the working class or Scotland going by their actions since coming into power.

The biggest argument (a fair one, I had thought, and one I was prepared to accept) against Scottish independence whilst the Tories was that it would be better under Labour. That is being shown up on a daily basis to be utter garbage.

What were you expecting after 8 nearly 9 full months in power?

[Andy Bee]

Are they, like what? Have you looked at what's happening in places like Dundee University, is that down to Labour policy?!

Interesting you mention Dundee and Labour policy. Do you lay any blame at the feet of yon ex Labour MP and ex Scottish Labour leader, ahh can't remember her name, Vice Principal of Dundee Uni who resigned the day after a black hole was discovered in the universities finances and was gifted a seat in the house of lords? You know, the one that was found guilty by the standards committee for not declaring donations. Ahh this is annoying, remember her brother the Labour Minister was also found guilty and had to pay back £10s of thousands after being found out for claiming expenses for a second home whilst renting it out to someone else at the same time. No not Pat McFadden the Labour Minister although you could be forgiven for thinking that as the circumstances are similar whereby when expenses stopped for mortgage relief cheeky Pat rented the house next door and claimed the rent on expenses whilst also renting his home out next door to someone else, no not that one. Ahh this is annoying.

[jamie_1875]

Interesting you mention Dundee and Labour policy. Do you lay any blame at the feet of yon ex Labour MP and ex Scottish Labour leader, ahh can't remember her name, Vice Principal of Dundee Uni who resigned the day after a black hole was discovered in the universities finances and was gifted a seat in the house of lords? You know, the one that was found guilty by the standards committee for not declaring donations. Ahh this is annoying, remember her brother the Labour Minister was also found guilty and had to pay back £10s of thousands after being found out for claiming expenses for a second home whilst renting it out to someone else at the same time. No not Pat McFadden the Labour Minister although you could be forgiven for thinking that as the circumstances are similar whereby when expenses stopped for mortgage relief cheeky Pat rented the house next door and claimed the rent on expenses whilst also renting his home out next door to someone else, no not that one. Ahh this is annoying.

Absolutely yes if she was part of the management team responsible, it would be stupid not to say she took her share of responsibility for it. Although I don't understand the link to Labour policy?

[Smartie]

What were you expecting after 8 nearly 9 full months in power?

Energy and ideas.

The best work from a government normally comes early, they fade as time goes by.

They started with a whimper, have lacked ingenuity and optimism and have been generally dull, pessimistic and dreich.

I think I'd probably have preferred almost anything as long as it was different and reflected the mandate the electorate gave them to bring about change. This will be a rare occasion when I praise Trump - at least he started on the front foot and from even before day one set about doing exactly what he said he'd do and what he thinks those who voted him into power wanted. I happen to disagree with all of it, but still...

They've missed the opportunity.

That's before you get into individual situations like Grangemouth etc.

The reason it bothers me - is that if they don't deliver (and believe it or not, I very much want them to) then I REALLY don't like who and what is waiting in the wings to pounce and take advantage down South.



Going by your question do you seriously think they just need time and that anything will change?

[jamie_1875]

Energy and ideas.

The best work from a government normally comes early, they fade as time goes by.

They started with a whimper, have lacked ingenuity and optimism and have been generally dull, pessimistic and dreich.

I think I'd probably have preferred almost anything as long as it was different and reflected the mandate the electorate gave them to bring about change. This will be a rare occasion when I praise Trump - at least he started on the front foot and from even before day one set about doing exactly what he said he'd do and what he thinks those who voted him into power wanted. I happen to disagree with all of it, but still...

They've missed the opportunity.

That's before you get into individual situations like Grangemouth etc.

The reason it bothers me - is that if they don't deliver (and believe it or not, I very much want them to) then I REALLY don't like who and what is waiting in the wings to pounce and take advantage down South.



Going by your question do you seriously think they just need time and that anything will change?

All reasonable points but I believe they were left such a mess they are sorting that out, and the way the political cycle works is you get all the **** out at the start and then come election time you bring out the policy's and changes people want to see. Not great but that's the nature of our politics.

If Labour are still struggling in a few years time like they are now then fair enough they have failed.

[Smartie]

All reasonable points but I believe they were left such a mess they are sorting that out, and the way the political cycle works is you get all the **** out at the start and then come election time you bring out the policy's and changes people want to see. Not great but that's the nature of our politics.

If Labour are still struggling in a few years time like they are now then fair enough they have failed.

Yeah, I accept that.

The Tories actually had raised taxes a fair bit so there wasn't really much wiggle room for Labour to do Labour things without spooking all sorts.

We just don't seem to get an awful lot for our tax here.

And I'm just not that much of a fan of the "last lot were crap so our hands are tied" politics. Labour, I thought, could have been much more positive with their messaging and tried to treat this like a fresh start, more like how Blair did. They had a mandate for change then just proceeded with a dull, more of the same act, as if our only option is ever further, managed decline.

[grunt]

What were you expecting after 8 nearly 9 full months in power?
Change. That's what they were elected on. We've seen no change so far.

[jamie_1875]

Change. That's what they were elected on. We've seen no change so far.

That's just not true but it depends on what change you are after.

Two million extra NHS appointments delivered for example, that's change if you live in England and Wales. Plenty of other changes as well. But we live in Scotland and the majority of the public services are devolved so it's the SNP you should be asking for change depending on what you want.

I did a list a few pages back of all the changes delivered so far, have a look.

[cabbageandribs1875]

disgusting :agree:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpukfOwXgAAHKhH?format=jpg&name=large

[jamie_1875]

disgusting :agree:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpukfOwXgAAHKhH?format=jpg&name=large

What's worse funding MPs or helping fund the companies that help arm Israel, how do you feel about the Scottish Government grants to these companies?

https://greens.scot/StopFundingGenocide

"The Scottish Government is funding companies that are profiting from war crimes committed against Palestinians.

Over the last 18 months the Israeli military has inflicted a genocide on the people of Gaza, directly killing over 64,000 people, 59% of them women, children and the elderly.

BAE Systems, Raytheon, and Leonardo have all received funding from Scotland’s public purse. Each of these companies manufactures weapons or components used by Israeli forces"

What's your word for that?

[Kato]

What's worse funding MPs or helping fund the companies that help arm Israel, how do you feel about the Scottish Government grants to these companies?

https://greens.scot/StopFundingGenocide

"The Scottish Government is funding companies that are profiting from war crimes committed against Palestinians.

Over the last 18 months the Israeli military has inflicted a genocide on the people of Gaza, directly killing over 64,000 people, 59% of them women, children and the elderly.

BAE Systems, Raytheon, and Leonardo have all received funding from Scotland’s public purse. Each of these companies manufactures weapons or components used by Israeli forces"

What's your word for that?Disgusting.

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[grunt]

BAE Systems, Raytheon, and Leonardo have all received funding from Scotland’s public purse. Each of these companies manufactures weapons or components used by Israeli forces"

What's your word for that?I'm not supporting the sale of arms to Israel.

These companies have been operating in Scotland for decades. Has the Scottish Government given grants to these companies in the last two years? Or is the "SG funding" that the Greens refer to historic funding from prior to the Israeli onslaught on Gaza? I don't know, just asking.

And quite what this has to do with the Labour Party I don't know.

[grunt]

That's just not true but it depends on what change you are after.

Two million extra NHS appointments delivered for example, that's change if you live in England and Wales. Plenty of other changes as well. But we live in Scotland and the majority of the public services are devolved so it's the SNP you should be asking for change depending on what you want.

I did a list a few pages back of all the changes delivered so far, have a look.
Bizarre reply. We are talking about Starmer and the UK Labour Party that currently forms the UK Government. If you want me to hold the SNP accountable for the running of everything in Scotland tell your friend Starmer to let us have an independence referendum.

[JimBHibees]

That's just not true but it depends on what change you are after.

Two million extra NHS appointments delivered for example, that's change if you live in England and Wales. Plenty of other changes as well. But we live in Scotland and the majority of the public services are devolved so it's the SNP you should be asking for change depending on what you want.

I did a list a few pages back of all the changes delivered so far, have a look.

Your right it’s not true they have deliberately punished the disabled and some of the poorest in our society and lurched further to the right while doing nothing to save Grangemouth. Way to go party of the people

[grunt]

Here's your lying Labour Party and their empty promises to save Grangemouth. Sarwar and Starmer are no better than Johnson. Lying politicians.


The Labour government has allocated funds from a £2.5 billion steel fund to support the Scunthorpe steelworks, to prevent the closure of the Chinese owned steel plant, and is also providing a £600M loan guarantee for the Ineos refinery in Belgium. Meanwhile Grangemouth closes!

[JimBHibees]

Here's your lying Labour Party and their empty promises to save Grangemouth. Sarwar and Starmer are no better than Johnson. Lying politicians.

Absolutely completely deliberate policy to undermine Scotland it’s what they have always done

[jamie_1875]

Bizarre reply. We are talking about Starmer and the UK Labour Party that currently forms the UK Government. If you want me to hold the SNP accountable for the running of everything in Scotland tell your friend Starmer to let us have an independence referendum.

So after 9 months what realistic change from the UK government were you looking for, any examples?

And the people of Scotland rejected Independence yet again in July so why would a referendum be on the cards? The SNP who stood on a platform of Independence (line one page one of their manifesto) were widely beaten and lost the election.

[jamie_1875]

Absolutely completely deliberate policy to undermine Scotland it’s what they have always done

If it's a deliberate policy and you believe that then where do the meetings take place to discuss this policy? Do you hand on heart believe there is a group of Labour MPs who meet and think how can we undermine Scotland as deliberate suggess some kind of plan or strategy is in place, are the Scotland MPs part of this plan secretly working against their constituents or are they not in on the plan? Is it being run by some covert group of other Labour MPs?

You see where this is taking you?

Sure there has been some decisions you don't like as that's what happens with all Government but if you actually believe there is a deliberate plan and strategy to undermine Scotland how does it work without anyone letting it slip? Or are you just not liking some of the decisions they have made?

[Ozyhibby]

If it's a deliberate policy and you believe that then where do the meetings take place to discuss this policy? Do you hand on heart believe there is a group of Labour MPs who meet and think how can we undermine Scotland as deliberate suggess some kind of plan or strategy is in place, are the Scotland MPs part of this plan secretly working against their constituents or are they not in on the plan? Is it being run by some covert group of other Labour MPs?

You see where this is taking you?

Sure there has been some decisions you don't like as that's what happens with all Government but if you actually believe there is a deliberate plan and strategy to undermine Scotland how does it work without anyone letting it slip? Or are you just not liking some of the decisions they have made?

Tough **** Scotland, eh![emoji106]


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[jamie_1875]

Tough **** Scotland, eh![emoji106]


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Like getting the largest block grant since devolution began? Really undermining Scotland!

I understand that anything other than Independence is not acceptable for many in Scotland and that's fair enough, but to suggest there is some kind of deliberate strategy to undermine Scotland is well a bit Trumpian and suggests some kind of conspiracy.

What's the benefit to Labour to undermine Scotland exactly, to increase support for Independence? Losing MPs in Scotland? Get to 0% support in Scotland? I mean why would they pursue a policy that did that....are they all secret Independence supporters maybe? None of it adds up, sure some decisions have been made that are unpopular but I don't buy it's some kind of deliberate strategy where they have singled out Scotland and sat around a table to think of new ways to undermine Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

If it's a deliberate policy and you believe that then where do the meetings take place to discuss this policy? Do you hand on heart believe there is a group of Labour MPs who meet and think how can we undermine Scotland as deliberate suggess some kind of plan or strategy is in place, are the Scotland MPs part of this plan secretly working against their constituents or are they not in on the plan? Is it being run by some covert group of other Labour MPs?

You see where this is taking you?

Sure there has been some decisions you don't like as that's what happens with all Government but if you actually believe there is a deliberate plan and strategy to undermine Scotland how does it work without anyone letting it slip? Or are you just not liking some of the decisions they have made?

It's called the Palace of Westminster!!

[jamie_1875]

It's called the Palace of Westminster!!

So are the Labour MPs elected in Scotland in on this plan? Or they somehow kept in the dark?

[Hibrandenburg]

So are the Labour MPs elected in Scotland in on this plan? Or they somehow kept in the dark?

Are the Labour MPs unionist or independence supporters?

[jamie_1875]

Are the Labour MPs unionist or independence supporters?

They are not Indy supporters are they? That doesn't mean they are all plotting to undermine Scotland and their constituents that they represent. I mean it sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, all 37 Labour MPs in Scotland are there to undermine Scotland and work against their constituents. Where they told this before or after they were elected? All 37 agreed to it but are keeping it secret....

Are all SNP MSPs that support Indy deliberately undermining devolution in the Scottish Parliament then because they want it to fail to advance Independence? Or they doing what they think is right and making decisions that may be unpopular because that's what governments have to do.

[Hibrandenburg]

They are not Indy supporters are they? That doesn't mean they are all plotting to undermine Scotland and their constituents that they represent. I mean it sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, all 37 Labour MPs in Scotland are there to undermine Scotland and work against their constituents. Where they told this before or after they were elected? All 37 agreed to it but are keeping it secret....

Are all SNP MSPs that support Indy deliberately undermining devolution in the Scottish Parliament then because they want it to fail to advance Independence? Or they doing what they think is right and making decisions that may be unpopular because that's what governments have to do.

I've said it before and am happy to say it again. Anyone who doesn’t believe that the British State is not using all organs available to it to protect the integrity of the British State is naive and hasn't been paying attention to history.

[grunt]

So after 9 months what realistic change from the UK government were you looking for, any examples? I want change with respect to the UK's relationship with the EU. I want change with respect to many of the quasi-fascist laws introduced by the Lying Tories (voter ID, anti-protest legislation). I want judicial action against those responsible for stealing money from the UK in Covid PPE scandals. "9 months" you say. With the majority Starmer has in the HoC he could change a lot more than he's currently doing. He's hopeless.


And the people of Scotland rejected Independence yet again in July so why would a referendum be on the cards? The SNP who stood on a platform of Independence (line one page one of their manifesto) were widely beaten and lost the election.I wasn't aware there was a referendum on Independence last July. Why did no one tell me? Oh that's right, there wasn't one, you just made it up.

[jamie_1875]

I've said it before and am happy to say it again. Anyone who doesn’t believe that the British State is not using all organs available to it to protect the integrity of the British State is naive and hasn't been paying attention to history.

So you think the Labour MPs in Scotland are like under MI5 control or something? If not how are they being influenced to undermine Scotland, are they doing it deliberately as suggested or what?

[jamie_1875]

I want change with respect to the UK's relationship with the EU. I want change with respect to many of the quasi-fascist laws introduced by the Lying Tories (voter ID, anti-protest legislation). I want judicial action against those responsible for stealing money from the UK in Covid PPE scandals. "9 months" you say. With the majority Starmer has in the HoC he could change a lot more than he's currently doing. He's hopeless.

I wasn't aware there was a referendum on Independence last July. Why did no one tell me? Oh that's right, there wasn't one, you just made it up.

Didn't we have a de facto referendum or was that dropped?

The SNP message and this is on their website "A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence" and their manifesto had on page 1 "Vote SNP for Scotland to become an Independent Country"

Pretty clear message if people wanted Independence to vote SNP but more people voted for Labour in Scotland and the SNP vote dropped.

[Jack]

If it's a deliberate policy and you believe that then where do the meetings take place to discuss this policy? Do you hand on heart believe there is a group of Labour MPs who meet and think how can we undermine Scotland as deliberate suggess some kind of plan or strategy is in place, are the Scotland MPs part of this plan secretly working against their constituents or are they not in on the plan? Is it being run by some covert group of other Labour MPs?

You see where this is taking you?

Sure there has been some decisions you don't like as that's what happens with all Government but if you actually believe there is a deliberate plan and strategy to undermine Scotland how does it work without anyone letting it slip? Or are you just not liking some of the decisions they have made?

It's maybe not a deliberate policy but it's there for all to see.

Why should Westminster invest long term in Scotland when independence is inevitable?

Why, for example, was the gas pipeline from Norway taken to half way down the English east coast (£1.7bn) and not somewhere considerably closer like the gas terminal at St Fergus?

[Hibrandenburg]

So you think the Labour MPs in Scotland are like under MI5 control or something? If not how are they being influenced to undermine Scotland, are they doing it deliberately as suggested or what?

No, I think MPs whose loyalty lies with the union will act on behalf of the union. I think organisations within the union put in place to protect the union will do everything in their power to protect the union. Is that really so far fetched?

[jamie_1875]

It's maybe not a deliberate policy but it's there for all to see.

Why should Westminster invest long term in Scotland when independence is inevitable?

Why, for example, was the gas pipeline from Norway taken to half way down the English east coast (£1.7bn) and not somewhere considerably closer like the gas terminal at St Fergus?

Ok so we have gone from deliberate to not being deliberate now.

I don't know the ins and outs of that particular case but when I had a read about St Fergus it seems to be getting gas from Norway. I also read it has aging equipment meaning it loses gas compression so it struggles to process gas from the North sea fields. I am guessing that was taken into account along with many other factors.


"The St Fergus Gas Terminal has experienced issues related to pipelines, including a sale of terminal and pipeline interests in 2015, and a potential loss of gas compression capacity due to aging equipment. The terminal relies heavily on pipelines for gas transport, and the potential loss of compression units would impact the terminal's ability to process gas from various North Sea fields"

[Ozyhibby]

Ok so we have gone from deliberate to not being deliberate now.

I don't know the ins and outs of that particular case but when I had a read about St Fergus it seems to be getting gas from Norway. I also read it has aging equipment meaning it loses gas compression so it struggles to process gas from the North sea fields. I am guessing that was taken into account along with many other factors.


"The St Fergus Gas Terminal has experienced issues related to pipelines, including a sale of terminal and pipeline interests in 2015, and a potential loss of gas compression capacity due to aging equipment. The terminal relies heavily on pipelines for gas transport, and the potential loss of compression units would impact the terminal's ability to process gas from various North Sea fields"

You def would not want to invest money to bring up to date then. Not in Scotland. Same with Grangemouth.


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[grunt]

Pretty clear message if people wanted Independence to vote SNP but more people voted for Labour in Scotland and the SNP vote dropped.
Was it a referendum?

No.

You're confusing political messaging with legal fact. You can't honestly say that people voted against independence when independence wasn't on offer. Surely even you can see that?

[jamie_1875]

No, I think MPs whose loyalty lies with the union will act on behalf of the union. I think organisations within the union put in place to protect the union will do everything in their power to protect the union. Is that really so far fetched?

No, just like you could suggest the SG and SNP will do everything it can to break up the Union I guess as the SNP MSPs loyalty is to Independence? That's pretty normal I would suggest and it's not a secret.

I think the suggestion that Labour were deliberately out to undermine Scotland and their MPs are part of some strategy or plot was the the main point but the points you raise are different to what was being discussed.

[jamie_1875]

Was it a referendum?

No.

You're confusing political messaging with legal fact. You can't honestly say that people voted against independence when independence wasn't on offer. Surely even you can see that?

But if the SNP won the SNP were taking that as a signal to begin Independence negotiations?

"John Swinney has said the Scottish government will be "empowered" to begin negotiations for a second independence referendum if the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats at the general election"

You said you wanted Labour to bring a referendum on Indy as part of the change you want but by the SNPs own logic they lost that arguement as they lost the election.

You can't have it both ways, win the election then start Indy negotiations on a referendum and lose the election and want Labour to start the process of another referendum.

It's probably best on the Indy thread to be honest but a recent poll suggested Independence was way down the list of priorities for the things people wanted to see change in Scotland, it was Health and Education and the economy etc.

[grunt]

But if the SNP won the SNP were taking that as a signal to begin Independence negotiations?

"John Swinney has said the Scottish government will be "empowered" to begin negotiations for a second independence referendum if the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats at the general election"

You said you wanted Labour to bring a referendum on Indy as part of the change you want but by the SNPs own logic they lost that arguement as they lost the election.

You can't have it both ways, win the election then start Indy negotiations on a referendum and lose the election and want Labour to start the process of another referendum.

It's probably best on the Indy thread to be honest but a recent poll suggested Independence was way down the list of priorities for the things people wanted to see change in Scotland, it was Health and Education and the economy etc.
This is getting really, really tedious. It's possible to want more than one thing at a time. And not obtaining that thing doesn't stop me from continuing to want it.

I'm out.

[jamie_1875]

This is getting really, really tedious. It's possible to want more than one thing at a time. And not obtaining that thing doesn't stop me from continuing to want it.

I'm out.

My apologies for not thinking like you! If only everyone agreed with you they would see what you clearly see vibes here. I think it's good we all have different options on things.

[Moulin Yarns]

Didn't we have a de facto referendum or was that dropped?

The SNP message and this is on their website "A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence" and their manifesto had on page 1 "Vote SNP for Scotland to become an Independent Country"

Pretty clear message if people wanted Independence to vote SNP but more people voted for Labour in Scotland and the SNP vote dropped.

You know that it was a Westminster election, and people voted any way they could to remove the tories. Knowing the SNP couldn't form a government at Westminster then people held their noses and voted Labour.

Looks like they made a mistake in grangemouth among others.

[jamie_1875]

You know that it was a Westminster election, and people voted any way they could to remove the tories. Knowing the SNP couldn't form a government at Westminster then people held their noses and voted Labour.

Looks like they made a mistake in grangemouth among others.

Is that a guess or do you have evidence for that? I mean people aren't stupid they know the SNP can't form a UK Government, like they did when they voted in the 2019 Westminster election and voted in 48 SNP MPs. Nobody votes expecting the SNP to form a UK Government.

[Moulin Yarns]

You def would not want to invest money to bring up to date then. Not in Scotland. Same with Grangemouth.


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Considering the oil and gas pipelines from St Fergus are what brought oil and gas to grangemouth I guess st Fergus will be the next to be closed!

[jamie_1875]

You def would not want to invest money to bring up to date then. Not in Scotland. Same with Grangemouth.


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That's surely up the company that's owns it? Why not ask them why they aren't investing in it, maybe because the SNP/Greens have made it clear the don't see any future for oil and gas in Scotland? That's bound to have an impact on long term investment I bet, or maybe it's something else.

"The Scottish government has announced a presumption against new oil and gas exploration as part of its new energy strategy.

Scottish ministers say they can no longer support the previous position of "maximising economic recovery" of fossil fuel reserves."

That really helps investment doesn't it.....

[Andy Bee]

That's surely up the company that's owns it? Why not ask them why they aren't investing in it, maybe because the SNP/Greens have made it clear the don't see any future for oil and gas in Scotland? That's bound to have an impact on long term investment I bet, or maybe it's something else.

"The Scottish government has announced a presumption against new oil and gas exploration as part of its new energy strategy.

Scottish ministers say they can no longer support the previous position of "maximising economic recovery" of fossil fuel reserves."

That really helps investment doesn't it.....

Ahh the old "It's a private company, we can't get involved" argument, that aged well.

[Andy Bee]

I watched the TNT Show last night and John Drummond raised an interesting point, "is this Labour Government the most anti Scottish Government yet?". There's plenty evidence that it may well be and I include Thatcher and her Poll Tax in that. It's moved from benign neglect to malign.

PMQs are now just Scottish Labour lacky after Scottish Labour lacky, all with their little £10k bungs from Lord Ally in their pockets, standing up and disrespecting the very country they were elected to serve, talking down devolved services, services that are often better in Scotland than in any other Labour run part of the UK just to pat their little leader on the back in the hope of getting in his lucrative cabinet, it's playground stuff and does nothing for the constituents they're meant to be representing. Brian Leishman apart I've not seen one Scottish Labour MP worth their salt and that'll show in the next GE. I'm obviously biased but I bet this doesn't go down well with a lot of genuine Labour supporters in Scotland?

[jamie_1875]

Ahh the old "It's a private company, we can't get involved" argument, that aged well.

I never said that, I said it's up to the company if they invest or not and that's true. The signals from the Scottish Government don't exactly lend themselves to investing in oil and gas long term though do they? You have to admit that's the case?

Governments in Scotland or the UK can get involved of they want to. We saw it many times already in Scotland and across the UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is that a guess or do you have evidence for that? I mean people aren't stupid they know the SNP can't form a UK Government, like they did when they voted in the 2019 Westminster election and voted in 48 SNP MPs. Nobody votes expecting the SNP to form a UK Government.

Polling suggest that is the case.

https://ballotbox.scot/scottish-parliament/polling-scottish-parliament/

Look at peak labour, coinciding with the general election followed by a dramatic downwards, also coinciding with the rise in reform!!!

Frightening that labour voters appear to be going in that direction!!!

[jamie_1875]

Polling suggest that is the case.

https://ballotbox.scot/scottish-parliament/polling-scottish-parliament/

Look at peak labour, coinciding with the general election followed by a dramatic downwards, also coinciding with the rise in reform!!!

Frightening that labour voters appear to be going in that direction!!!

It's refreshing to see that site ignore polling by Find Out Now which always comes up with some pretty ridiculous results, probably because it's based on samples from people who use an online lottery site and get cash for answering questions. I don't deny Labour are struggling and if we are in the same place in 12 months time they will lose the Scottish Election, lots of hard work to do between now and then. Although unless I missed it that page doesn't back up your claim that people never voted SNP because they thought they couldn't form a UK Government.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's refreshing to see that site ignore polling by Find Out Now which always comes up with some pretty ridiculous results, probably because it's based on samples from people who use an online lottery site and get cash for answering questions. I don't deny Labour are struggling and if we are in the same place in 12 months time they will lose the Scottish Election, lots of hard work to do between now and then. Although unless I missed it that page doesn't back up your claim that people never voted SNP because they thought they couldn't form a UK Government.

If you can be bothered to read a long academic analysis of the election results!!

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/news-and-opinion/how-scotland-voted-2024-uk-general-election


While 40% of Scottish Labour voters said that they were voting ‘in a way to best affect which party becomes the UK government’,

[Ozyhibby]

I never said that, I said it's up to the company if they invest or not and that's true. The signals from the Scottish Government don't exactly lend themselves to investing in oil and gas long term though do they? You have to admit that's the case?

Governments in Scotland or the UK can get involved of they want to. We saw it many times already in Scotland and across the UK.

Is Grangemouth closing because we don’t have enough oil for it?


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[Kato]

Is Grangemouth closing because we don’t have enough oil for it?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's cos it's in jockoland, innit!

Or, investment seems to have geographical balance to it. The closer to the, already hugely invested, south east the more likely it get funding.

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[jamie_1875]

Is Grangemouth closing because we don’t have enough oil for it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, you seem to have made up your mind it's only because it was in Scotland the company decided to close it. I would suspect the fact it was losing $500,000 a day would have a part to play, would you step in to save that business? And as said before the narrative from the SG on oil and gas hasn't help to encourage further investment (seems to be conveniently ignored)

"Petroineos said it was closing the refinery because it was losing around $500,000 per day and had become uncompetitive against larger and more modern sites in the Middle East, Africa and Asia. Grangemouth was Britain's oldest oil refinery"

Aren't you against Government intervention, I am sure you said the SNP should have stayed out of Fergusons so why are you all of a sudden a fan of governments stepping in, what changed? Or apologies if not you.

[jamie_1875]

Polling suggest that is the case.

https://ballotbox.scot/scottish-parliament/polling-scottish-parliament/

Look at peak labour, coinciding with the general election followed by a dramatic downwards, also coinciding with the rise in reform!!!

Frightening that labour voters appear to be going in that direction!!!

New poll out today shows Labour increasing the number of seats in the Scottish Parliament. I mean it's still behind what I would hope for but not exactly in SNP 2024 wipe out territory.

SNP – 57 (-7)
Lab – 25 (+3)
Con – 17 (-14)
Reform – 12 (+12)
LIB DEM – 8 (+4)
Grn – 10 (+2)

[Ozyhibby]

No, you seem to have made up your mind it's only because it was in Scotland the company decided to close it. I would suspect the fact it was losing $500,000 a day would have a part to play, would you step in to save that business? And as said before the narrative from the SG on oil and gas hasn't help to encourage further investment (seems to be conveniently ignored)

"Petroineos said it was closing the refinery because it was losing around $500,000 per day and had become uncompetitive against larger and more modern sites in the Middle East, Africa and Asia. Grangemouth was Britain's oldest oil refinery"

Aren't you against Government intervention, I am sure you said the SNP should have stayed out of Fergusons so why are you all of a sudden a fan of governments stepping in, what changed? Or apologies if not you.

Did the Labour Party promise to save it if they won during the election campaign?


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[jamie_1875]

Did the Labour Party promise to save it if they won during the election campaign?


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They did yes, they got that wrong. So were you for or against Government intervention or not? Why the change of heart?

[Moulin Yarns]

New poll out today shows Labour increasing the number of seats in the Scottish Parliament. I mean it's still behind what I would hope for but not exactly in SNP 2024 wipe out territory.

SNP – 57 (-7)
Lab – 25 (+3)
Con – 17 (-14)
Reform – 12 (+12)
LIB DEM – 8 (+4)
Grn – 10 (+2)

Getting back to the general election, 40% of labour voters said that they voted labour in Scotland to get rid of the tories!!!

[Jack]

They did yes, they got that wrong. So were you for or against Government intervention or not? Why the change of heart?

They didn't get it wrong. They said they would and they didn't when it was their choice to make. They lied.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, just like you could suggest the SG and SNP will do everything it can to break up the Union I guess as the SNP MSPs loyalty is to Independence? That's pretty normal I would suggest and it's not a secret.

I think the suggestion that Labour were deliberately out to undermine Scotland and their MPs are part of some strategy or plot was the the main point but the points you raise are different to what was being discussed.

The points I raised are most definitely related to what is being discussed. There are definitely organisations created by the British state to protect the British state working to protect the integrity of the British state. But somehow you think the leadership of the current ruling party is oblivious to this.

[Hibs4185]

Can’t be bothered replying to numerous posts above but to suggest independence was rejected at the last election because Labour beat the SNP is just wrong and to suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense.

People were desperate to get rid of the Tories and many SNP voters lent their votes to Labour to ensure that happened.

If the trend is repeated at the Scottish elections then the case could be made that people habe in fact rejected the SNP and independence but I would bet any money that the results will be back to normal.

Ps, I can’t stand Starmer and I thought his landslide victory put independence to bed for 10 years but he’s been so bad that the polls are now predicting a strong pro-Indy majority next year and for that reason, I now like Starmer. Long may he continue to be hopeless.

[Ozyhibby]

Can’t be bothered replying to numerous posts above but to suggest independence was rejected at the last election because Labour beat the SNP is just wrong and to suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense.

People were desperate to get rid of the Tories and many SNP voters lent their votes to Labour to ensure that happened.

If the trend is repeated at the Scottish elections then the case could be made that people habe in fact rejected the SNP and independence but I would bet any money that the results will be back to normal.

Ps, I can’t stand Starmer and I thought his landslide victory put independence to bed for 10 years but he’s been so bad that the polls are now predicting a strong pro-Indy majority next year and for that reason, I now like Starmer. Long may he continue to be hopeless.

Wasn’t really a landslide with only 34% of the vote. Pretty sure Corbyn got more votes. All that happened was the Tories split their vote with Reform. First past the post delivered a seat majority nothing like what people voted for. This was never a popular govt.


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[Andy Bee]

Labour losing 3/4 of the council seats they're defending to Reform, Prof John Curtice estimating that they'll lose 211 of the 300 seats they're defending. If this trend continues in Scotland in 26 Reform are going to get a helluva lot more seats than the 12 predicted.

[Hibs4185]

Labour losing 3/4 of the council seats they're defending to Reform, Prof John Curtice estimating that they'll lose 211 of the 300 seats they're defending. If this trend continues in Scotland in 26 Reform are going to get a helluva lot more seats than the 12 predicted.

I just don’t see it in Scotland. I think the Tory vote will split between the two.

I can’t see Labour voters turning to reform.
No way SNP, green or Lib Dem vote reform.

I think English nationalism is infectious and bang on reform messaging but they can’t exactly come to scotland and encourage scottish nationalism, moyheriwde they’d be an independence party.

I’d imagine rather than say 20 Tories, it might be 13 reform and 8 tories. They might pick up a few Labour voters but I don’t think it’ll be seismic.

In saying that my father in law is a traditional Labour voter and now watches GB news and repeats reform and far right messages.

So Labour could also be in trouble but again it’s just going to fracture the unionist vote

[Andy Bee]

I just don’t see it in Scotland. I think the Tory vote will split between the two.

I can’t see Labour voters turning to reform.
No way SNP, green or Lib Dem vote reform.

I think English nationalism is infectious and bang on reform messaging but they can’t exactly come to scotland and encourage scottish nationalism, moyheriwde they’d be an independence party.

I’d imagine rather than say 20 Tories, it might be 13 reform and 8 tories. They might pick up a few Labour voters but I don’t think it’ll be seismic.

It's now far bigger than just the English Nationalist rhetoric now, people are voting for them because they're sick of the duopoly. This is like Trumps first election and will strike a chord with some Labour voters in Scotland, it certainly is in England, bigtime.

[Smartie]

I just don’t see it in Scotland. I think the Tory vote will split between the two.

I can’t see Labour voters turning to reform.
No way SNP, green or Lib Dem vote reform.

I think English nationalism is infectious and bang on reform messaging but they can’t exactly come to scotland and encourage scottish nationalism, moyheriwde they’d be an independence party.

I’d imagine rather than say 20 Tories, it might be 13 reform and 8 tories. They might pick up a few Labour voters but I don’t think it’ll be seismic.

In saying that my father in law is a traditional Labour voter and now watches GB news and repeats reform and far right messages.

So Labour could also be in trouble but again it’s just going to fracture the unionist vote

I wouldn't be complacent about there not being a demographic in Scotland who are absolutely ripe for being targeted by English / British nationalists.

There's actually a fairly huge one who haven't ever been a neat fit for any of the other available options.

[Smartie]

It's now far bigger than just the English Nationalist rhetoric now, people are voting for them because they're sick of the duopoly. This is like Trumps first election and will strike a chord with some Labour voters in Scotland, it certainly is in England, bigtime.

Agreed.

One hope we've got is that the more it goes belly up for Trump, the more chance we've got that people - even morons - will question whether or not that's what they want here.

Because that's basically what reform are.

[Jack]

I wouldn't be complacent about there not being a demographic in Scotland who are absolutely ripe for being targeted by English / British nationalists.

There's actually a fairly huge one who haven't ever been a neat fit for any of the other available options.

I don't think the demographic you speak of will be in big numbers among the independence voters, unless ...

Reform somehow fit an independence for Scotland section in their business plan.


Do limited companies do manifestos?

[Moulin Yarns]

No, you seem to have made up your mind it's only because it was in Scotland the company decided to close it. I would suspect the fact it was losing $500,000 a day would have a part to play, would you step in to save that business? And as said before the narrative from the SG on oil and gas hasn't help to encourage further investment (seems to be conveniently ignored)

"Petroineos said it was closing the refinery because it was losing around $500,000 per day and had become uncompetitive against larger and more modern sites in the Middle East, Africa and Asia. Grangemouth was Britain's oldest oil refinery"

Aren't you against Government intervention, I am sure you said the SNP should have stayed out of Fergusons so why are you all of a sudden a fan of governments stepping in, what changed? Or apologies if not you.

Are you happy that labour has taken control of a business that was losing 1.5x the amount that petroineos said they were losing? Assume the loses transfer to the government, how will they fund it?

A lot cheaper to rescue grangemouth refinery than the steelworks in a town in England ( can't put its name in 🤣)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y66y40kgpo.amp


It's OK though, they just elected a reform mayor 🤣

[jamie_1875]

Are you happy that labour has taken control of a business that was losing 1.5x the amount that petroineos said they were losing? Assume the loses transfer to the government, how will they fund it?

A lot cheaper to rescue grangemouth refinery than the steelworks in a town in England ( can't put its name in 🤣)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y66y40kgpo.amp


It's OK though, they just elected a reform mayor 🤣

I think it's been well explained why the steelworks was saved. Read up on it and you might find out why.

If you think it was all about what was "cheaper" then you really need to find out more about it.

[Smartie]

I think it's been well explained why the steelworks was saved. Read up on it and you might find out why.

If you think it was all about what was "cheaper" then you really need to find out more about it.

What was the reason? Genuine question, I don't know for sure.

One reason I'd seen cited was the fact that to fight a war, you need your own ability to make steel, somehow or other. If our last facilities were to close then we wouldn't be able to revive them in a hurry, therefore leaving us incredibly vulnerable, especially as the world is appearing to be more dangerous and some of our traditional allies are being perceived to be potential enemies.

I didn't know if this was veering into foil hat territory or a genuine, verified reason. I go into some strange corners and down some odd rabbit holes when it comes to present day geopolitics.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's been well explained why the steelworks was saved. Read up on it and you might find out why.

If you think it was all about what was "cheaper" then you really need to find out more about it.

Thanks for your non reply!

You're awful good at asking others questions but rarely give a straight answer.

[Hibs4185]

I wouldn't be complacent about there not being a demographic in Scotland who are absolutely ripe for being targeted by English / British nationalists.

There's actually a fairly huge one who haven't ever been a neat fit for any of the other available options.

As I said my father in law is the perfect example. He’s hook like and sinker a Labour voter who will vote reform.

If the SNP and other independence parties can get their act together and agree a tactical vote for the list vote, then it should limit how many reform MSP’s there are.

[Andy Bee]

As I said my father in law is the perfect example. He’s hook like and sinker a Labour voter who will vote reform.

If the SNP and other independence parties can get their act together and agree a tactical vote for the list vote, then it should limit how many reform MSP’s there are.

It's an absolute no brainer and especially so if Reform contest constituency seats, SNP could actually win the borders constituency seats with Reform splitting the Tory vote. Never gonna happen though.

[Hibs4185]

It's an absolute no brainer and especially so if Reform contest constituency seats, SNP could actually win the borders constituency seats with Reform splitting the Tory vote. Never gonna happen though.

Strangely reform might actually bring the yes parties together. No one in the movement seems to be able or willing to build bridges but an electoral challenge from reform might make the unwilling to become willing.

As you say, probably not but there is always hope

[Ozyhibby]

Reform will likely target British nationalism in Scotland. Fertile territory that the other unionist parties have prepared for them.


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[JimBHibees]

Reform will likely target British nationalism in Scotland. Fertile territory that the other unionist parties have prepared for them.


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Yep absolutely is.

[jamie_1875]

Thanks for your non reply!

You're awful good at asking others questions but rarely give a straight answer.

Your posts are confusing at the best of times.

Am I happy they took control of the steel company? Yes for the reasons explained at the time. It's not based on what's "cheapest" as you suggested though, a bit more complex than that.

[jamie_1875]

What was the reason? Genuine question, I don't know for sure.

One reason I'd seen cited was the fact that to fight a war, you need your own ability to make steel, somehow or other. If our last facilities were to close then we wouldn't be able to revive them in a hurry, therefore leaving us incredibly vulnerable, especially as the world is appearing to be more dangerous and some of our traditional allies are being perceived to be potential enemies.

I didn't know if this was veering into foil hat territory or a genuine, verified reason. I go into some strange corners and down some odd rabbit holes when it comes to present day geopolitics.

It was saved as it was the last domestic steel producer in the UK, it's vital for national security and economic growth and makes us not reliant on foreign imports which with tariffs all over the place would lead to significant uncertainty. We would be the only G7 nation with no domestic steel producing capability if we lost it.

If the blast furnaces were switched off it's nigh on impossible to get them going again and they become unstable so it was important to do it in a quick manner.

We have other places across the UK that can refine oil and gas though so while it's disappointing Grangemouth is not of the same national and strategic importance. Or it was because it was in England and Grangemouth was in Scotland.

[Hibs4185]

Reform will likely target British nationalism in Scotland. Fertile territory that the other unionist parties have prepared for them.


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I don’t think British nationalism is a thing in Scotland except from some Tory *anks and a few others. In nearly every poll, the vast majority refer to themselves as Sxottish rather than British.

I think in Scotkand, it will be the racists and older people who will vote for them.

I can’t see anyone in the yes camp voting for them which if polls are correct make up 48-55% of people so if everyone sticks together, the no vote will be split among reform, Labour and Tories.

[JimBHibees]

I don’t think British nationalism is a thing in Scotland except from some Tory *anks and a few others. In nearly every poll, the vast majority refer to themselves as Sxottish rather than British.

I think in Scotkand, it will be the racists and older people who will vote for them.

I can’t see anyone in the yes camp voting for them which if polls are correct make up 48-55% of people so if everyone sticks together, the no vote will be split among reform, Labour and Tories.

I think it is a thing there are a lot of Rangers fans in the country :greengrin

Over a million in this country voted for brexit

[Berwickhibby]

I think it is a thing there are a lot of Rangers fans in the country :greengrin

Over a million in this country voted for brexit

Not just Rangers supporters…I know SNP supporters who voted for Brexit believing the change could get another referendum

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it is a thing there are a lot of Rangers fans in the country :greengrin

Over a million in this country voted for brexit

I'd read almost 40% of SNP voters voted for brexit. SNP voters on average aren't as middle class and liberal as this message board, where I think brexit no voters would be in the 90%'s.

Reform aren't just hoovering up fascists most are coming from the disenfranchised working class unfortunately. All the main parties look the same to too many people who are suffering in Europe due to drip down capitalism. Hence far right gaining power everything.

Scotland is a little bit shielded due to independence being a protest anti system viewpoint. At the same token the many average working class will look at the SNP Greens and see zero connection and them being the middle class establishment.

I'm sure Reform or similar would do great in an independent Scotland as we aren't that different to Germans, Dutch, French or English who are embracing the rights bull

[Hibs4185]

I think it is a thing there are a lot of Rangers fans in the country :greengrin

Over a million in this country voted for brexit

That’s the same rangers voters that don’t vote for the SNP though so again their vote is already split amongst unionist parties.

There are SNP voters who voted for Brexit and I’d imagine Alba have hoovered up the right leaning independence supporters.

Again, I can’t see reform affecting the yes movement. It would be some about turn to vote for independence then vote for the most English, beer drinking, king loving party going.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your posts are confusing at the best of times.

Am I happy they took control of the steel company? Yes for the reasons explained at the time. It's not based on what's "cheapest" as you suggested though, a bit more complex than that.

All I ask is for answers.

How will labour pay for the £750000 daily losses at the steelworks?

OK, it wasn't a choice of either or, labour could have saved the jobs at grangemouth, as promised in the lead up to the general election. A promise they renegade on.

All fuel will now have a 250 mile journey to Edinburgh and will have a knock on effect on prices in Scotland.

Still happy? More cuts or increases in taxation seems the only choice or EVEN more borrowing!

[jamie_1875]

All I ask is for answers.

How will labour pay for the £750000 daily losses at the steelworks?

OK, it wasn't a choice of either or, labour could have saved the jobs at grangemouth, as promised in the lead up to the general election. A promise they renegade on.

All fuel will now have a 250 mile journey to Edinburgh and will have a knock on effect on prices in Scotland.

Still happy? More cuts or increases in taxation seems the only choice or EVEN more borrowing!

Well it's the UK Government not the Labour party that pays for it, I assume they will pay for it from government revenue and expenditure. I don't know the workings of the price of oil but I doubt a few hundred miles makes much difference.

I thought you would be against oil and gas production in Scotland though, so you want to keep it going then?

Happy to help.

[grunt]

Ok, back to discussing the Labour Party. Here John McDonnell sets out some harsh truths, but will Starmer listen?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/03/labour-reform-voters-keir-starmer-local-elections?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Labour supporters feel deeply that their party has turned its back on them. It’s not just that they feel they are not being listened to. It’s that the Starmer and Reeves government is doing things that they believe no Labour government should ever do.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/495019648_122154950066451584_1308903443443572138_n .jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=cuplglr21XoQ7kNvwFu9r1J&_nc_oc=AdkQLMvhuLZRm1ojKi2WmMz51hCnb1YEvxgM--ks8I0lmqGQrETuvzRKY7mthAXorZE&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=ySyLjY2e2ihiUu4t8yDn1g&oh=00_AfEH9isYVwiDJbf2T1Nw1oNBYhHfz2EB8PHPSSe1Iiw7 mg&oe=681D2C8D

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250505/7d5b93a3ffe76b184bac300324363236.png

Labour MP


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[Bristolhibby]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/495019648_122154950066451584_1308903443443572138_n .jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=cuplglr21XoQ7kNvwFu9r1J&_nc_oc=AdkQLMvhuLZRm1ojKi2WmMz51hCnb1YEvxgM--ks8I0lmqGQrETuvzRKY7mthAXorZE&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=ySyLjY2e2ihiUu4t8yDn1g&oh=00_AfEH9isYVwiDJbf2T1Nw1oNBYhHfz2EB8PHPSSe1Iiw7 mg&oe=681D2C8D

Thing is there’s time for Labour. The Next General Election doesn’t have to be held until 15th August 2029.

Will the electorate remember the Winter Fuel issue from back in 2024?

J

[Ozyhibby]

Thing is there’s time for Labour. The Next General Election doesn’t have to be held until 15th August 2029.

Will the electorate remember the Winter Fuel issue from back in 2024?

J

If they don’t get economy growing and lifting the standard of living then everything will be remember and it will be read out like a charge sheet. That goes for any UK govt now.


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[grunt]

Scottish Labour - bunch of clowns

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:mgkhqihy5yvbj3epkopm5cpd/bafkreihzg44nls4i7b2xnav75uhlufmjgk2wbz4nfizkhoi4l uvtvlr2q4@jpeg

[jamie_1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo

Good news and especially for Scotland as it lowers tarrifs on Whisky and Salmon. Labour working to undermine Scotland again....oh no wait!

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo

Good news and especially for Scotland as it lowers tarrifs on Whisky and Salmon. Labour working to undermine Scotland again....oh no wait!
So a tariff of only 75% on whisky. That's good news, is it?

[jamie_1875]

So a tariff of only 75% on whisky. That's good news, is it?

"The UK-India free trade agreement is a once in a generation deal and a landmark moment for #ScotchWhisky exports"

That's the words of the Scottish Whisky Association so yes its good news. Or do you know better?

"The reduction of the current 150% tariff on Scotch Whisky will be transformational for the industry. The deal has the potential to increase Scotch Whisky exports to India by £1bn over the next 5 years and create 1200 jobs across the UK"

Do you see the positive in anything at all?

[Hibbyradge]

So a tariff of only 75% on whisky. That's good news, is it?

It's been halved from 150%.

That's bad news, is it?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo

Good news and especially for Scotland as it lowers tarrifs on Whisky and Salmon. Labour working to undermine Scotland again....oh no wait!

It’s good news but I don’t get the ‘especially for Scotland’ bit?
Trade is good and as they won’t let Scotland do it for ourselves I say it is literally their job, so well done doing your job. 75% still seems high but hey ho, well done Labour.[emoji122]


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[grunt]

"The reduction of the current 150% tariff on Scotch Whisky will be transformational for the industry. The deal has the potential to increase Scotch Whisky exports to India by £1bn over the next 5 years and create 1200 jobs across the UK"

Do you see the positive in anything at all?


It's been halved from 150%.

That's bad news, is it?
Everyone's been crying for the last month about Trump's 10% tariffs on all goods, but suddenly a 75% tariff is good news?

Ok, if you say so.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250506/a9bac1f2d8ee3cd8fb684c59d4ba7f0c.jpg

Welsh people have been living with Labour longer than most. Seems like they have had enough.


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[jamie_1875]

Everyone's been crying for the last month about Trump's 10% tariffs on all goods, but suddenly a 75% tariff is good news?

Ok, if you say so.

So it's a terrible day as tarrifs are halved, it will create up to 1,200 jobs and boost the industry by £1BN and the Scottish Whisky Association are way off the mark calling it transformational and a once in a generation deal. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13362887


Cars made in England 10% tariff
Whisky made in Scotland 75% tariff

Good deal for employers though, if you hire an Indian you don’t have to pay National Insurance. Hire a local and it’s pretty expensive these days.


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[jamie_1875]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13362887


Cars made in England 10% tariff
Whisky made in Scotland 75% tariff

Good deal for employers though, if you hire an Indian you don’t have to pay National Insurance. Hire a local and it’s pretty expensive these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Didn't take long to get back to the English/Scottish story again. You probably think India offered 0% and Labour were like nah keep it at 75% to annoy those pesky Scots.

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't take long to get back to the English/Scottish story again. You probably think India offered 0% and Labour were like nah keep it at 75% to annoy those pesky Scots.

If you think it’s a great deal then good for you.
I’ll tell you who will be delighted, Nigel Farage. No NI for Indians while UK citizens have to pay it, both personal and employers. Reform will love this. Still glad you are happy.


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[Hibs4185]

If you think it’s a great deal then good for you.
I’ll tell you who will be delighted, Nigel Farage. No NI for Indians while UK citizens have to pay it, both personal and employers. Reform will love this. Still glad you are happy.


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Not looked at all the detail but it seems as though any deal that the UK is looking to do, we have to give up far more than the other side.

Less tariffs for India, a reduction in tariffs for the UK and no NI for
Indians for 3 months whilst UK citizens have their tax increased.

It could be to get cheaper labour in during fruit picking season etc but as you say it’s an easy win for Reform.

I think Britain is in such a poor negotiating position, it’s having to give big concessions to get the bigger countries interested.

[Ozyhibby]

Not looked at all the detail but it seems as though any deal that the UK is looking to do, we have to give up far more than the other side.

Less tariffs for India, a reduction in tariffs for the UK and no NI for
Indians for 3 months whilst UK citizens have their tax increased.

It could be to get cheaper labour in during fruit picking season etc but as you say it’s an easy win for Reform.

I think Britain is in such a poor negotiating position, it’s having to give big concessions to get the bigger countries interested.

It’s three years of no NI for Indian workers. Great deal for the bosses.


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[DaveF]

Didn't take long to get back to the English/Scottish story again. You probably think India offered 0% and Labour were like nah keep it at 75% to annoy those pesky Scots.

Lol, you had a dig about Scotland in your post about the trade deal and then moan about someone else 😂

[Ozyhibby]

This deal is literally ‘two tier Kier’.


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[jamie_1875]

Lol, you had a dig about Scotland in your post about the trade deal and then moan about someone else 😂

I was positive for Scotland, every comment that followed is so negative though. I mean it's good news but it's met with that's a terrible and oh look England gets this and that.

I mean the Scottish Whisky Association are saying it's transformational, once in a generation and will create over 1000 jobs, can't that be welcomed and celebrated instead of saying it's terrible and England gets X or Y.

[Bostonhibby]

Not looked at all the detail but it seems as though any deal that the UK is looking to do, we have to give up far more than the other side.

Less tariffs for India, a reduction in tariffs for the UK and no NI for
Indians for 3 months whilst UK citizens have their tax increased.

It could be to get cheaper labour in during fruit picking season etc but as you say it’s an easy win for Reform.

I think Britain is in such a poor negotiating position, it’s having to give big concessions to get the bigger countries interested.You're exactly right.

Brexit saw us give up any mass market appeal or negotiating power we might have, we aren't part of a big purchasing, selling or negotiating group and our general influence on and relevance to world events seems questionable.



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[Ozyhibby]

I was positive for Scotland, every comment that followed is so negative though. I mean it's good news but it's met with that's a terrible and oh look England gets this and that.

I mean the Scottish Whisky Association are saying it's transformational, once in a generation and will create over 1000 jobs, can't that be welcomed and celebrated instead of saying it's terrible and England gets X or Y.

It’s great for whisky bosses. Happy days.
The rest of the Scottish workforce has just been put at a disadvantage against Indian workers. I’m not sure what you see as positive about that?


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s great for whisky bosses. Happy days.
The rest of the Scottish workforce has just been put at a disadvantage against Indian workers. I’m not sure what you see as positive about that?


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The employer and employee still pays the equivalent of NI but to India, it's like what we had with the EU so people weren't double taxed. I'm all for an increase in immigration but I don't think this will factor in that, it's also for people staying here temporarily and will be reversed if they want to stay.

The trade deal seems good for the UK although Trump would hate it as its estimated to benefit exports from the UK by a number of billion per year. It's tiny compared to the disasters of brexit mind

An economists view on the deal
@julianHjessop
I think it would be better to wait for the full details of the UK-India trade deal including a proper impact assessment before leaping to judgement, but here goes anyway...

At first sight this deal looks like a win-win, including the agreement to exempt Indian workers from social security contributions in the UK (and vice versa).

This appears to be a standard agreement to avoid double taxation for people working here temporarily, just like we already have with many other countries.

Without it, Indian workers and their employers in the UK have to pay social security contributions in both the UK and India, even though they are not eligible for all the benefits (especially the state pension) that National Insurance gets you.

What's more, the worker/employer will still have to pay Indian social security contributions, which are similar to those in the UK, as well as other additional costs including visa/sponsorship fees and the NHS surcharge.

So this deal alone will not allow Indian workers to 'undercut' British ones, especially as visa numbers will still be limited. Instead, it creates a level playing field between the two, which is surely a good thing

[jamie_1875]

It’s great for whisky bosses. Happy days.
The rest of the Scottish workforce has just been put at a disadvantage against Indian workers. I’m not sure what you see as positive about that?


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Well none if what you said was correct but as it's not...

I believe it's a good deal and seems most agree (not here obviously!), especially the Scottish Whisky Association who I guess know a thing or too about how it works.

[Ozyhibby]

The employer and employee still pays the equivalent of NI but to India, it's like what we had with the EU so people weren't double taxed. I'm all for an increase in immigration but I don't think this will factor in that, it's also for people staying here temporarily and will be reversed if they want to stay.

The trade deal seems good for the UK although Trump would hate it as its estimated to benefit exports from the UK by a number of billion per year. It's tiny compared to the disasters of brexit mind

An economists view on the deal
@julianHjessop
I think it would be better to wait for the full details of the UK-India trade deal including a proper impact assessment before leaping to judgement, but here goes anyway...

At first sight this deal looks like a win-win, including the agreement to exempt Indian workers from social security contributions in the UK (and vice versa).

This appears to be a standard agreement to avoid double taxation for people working here temporarily, just like we already have with many other countries.

Without it, Indian workers and their employers in the UK have to pay social security contributions in both the UK and India, even though they are not eligible for all the benefits (especially the state pension) that National Insurance gets you.

What's more, the worker/employer will still have to pay Indian social security contributions, which are similar to those in the UK, as well as other additional costs including visa/sponsorship fees and the NHS surcharge.

So this deal alone will not allow Indian workers to 'undercut' British ones, especially as visa numbers will still be limited. Instead, it creates a level playing field between the two, which is surely a good thing

Is NI the same in India as Scotland?


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[Hibbyradge]

Everyone's been crying for the last month about Trump's 10% tariffs on all goods, but suddenly a 75% tariff is good news?

Ok, if you say so.

:hilarious

Ok. It's terrible news. Should have stuck with the 150%.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is NI the same in India as Scotland?


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NI equivalent pretty much the same but it seems slightly more in India. Plus it's only Indian companies that can do this UK companies if hiring the Indian person still needs to pay NI in the UK.

We have similar deals in place with countries like Canada, US, South Korea, Japan. Labour's comms have been poor on this

[Ozyhibby]

NI equivalent pretty much the same but it seems slightly more in India. Plus it's only Indian companies that can do this UK companies if hiring the Indian person still needs to pay NI in the UK.

We have similar deals in place with countries like Canada, US, South Korea, Japan. Labour's comms have been poor on this

I’m in favour or the deal, just resented the ‘especially for Scotland’ sales pitch. I like free trade.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m in favour or the deal, just resented the ‘especially for Scotland’ sales pitch. I like free trade.


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I really like it too India is a powerhouse of the future. Although it's like a piece of sweetcorn in the pile of poo that is our international trade deals of the last decade

[Smartie]

I expect there will be a fair few “saving of the NHS” claims off the back of this deal.

A very high proportion of NHS dentistry is carried out by corporates. The corporates have taken a tanking in recent years as costs have gone up and they’ve found it incredibly difficult to attract people to work in their practices.

A solution that has been mooted (and that the corporates had clubbed together to make happen) was to loosen the regulations in order to import dentists from Kerala. I think they were only a few strokes of a pen from making this happen, maybe this announcement will accelerate the change.

One of the problems they’ve had though is that seemingly Kerala is a wonderful part of the world, beautiful and with a high standard of living. There’s no real guarantee that the clinicians are going to leave comfort there to come and work in what are some of the least desirable dentistry jobs in the UK.

Immigration of various sorts has kept the NHS afloat at various points through history, and the NHS has suffered badly when we’ve kicked back at immigration. Labour are sort of stuck between 2 of their normal preferred positions here - sticking up for “UK workers” and providing decent state services.

I expect the primary motivation here is that if this goes well for them they’ll be able to make claims about “saving the NHS” which is maybe not to be sniffed at.

[Moulin Yarns]

It’s great for whisky bosses. Happy days.
The rest of the Scottish workforce has just been put at a disadvantage against Indian workers. I’m not sure what you see as positive about that?


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Pretty sure most whisky distillers are foreign owned. Need to check but glenlivet,Aberlour, chivas are all owned by French pernod ricard.

[CropleyWasGod]

Pretty sure most whisky distillers are foreign owned. Need to check but glenlivet,Aberlour, chivas are all owned by French pernod ricard.

The workforce are Scots residents, though, paying tax and NI here.

The owners will pay VAT, alcohol duty and probably Corporation Tax here too.

[Andy Bee]

The workforce are Scots residents, though, paying tax and NI here.

The owners will pay VAT, alcohol duty and probably Corporation Tax here too.

But as for many other Scottish businesses and resources internationally owned the profits go elsewhere. Had to have a chuckle at the comments on The Scottish Whisky Association being all for this, the Scottish Whisky protectors lol, the kilt wearing dram busters? Out of the 15 businesses that make the association up IIRC only 2 are Scottish owned. Diageo having the cheek to list themselves once as themselves but not mentioning they own another 4 or 5.

[jamie_1875]

But as for many other Scottish businesses and resources internationally owned the profits go elsewhere. Had to have a chuckle at the comments on The Scottish Whisky Association being all for this, the Scottish Whisky protectors lol, the kilt wearing dram busters? Out of the 15 businesses that make the association up IIRC only 2 are Scottish owned. Diageo having the cheek to list themselves once as themselves but not mentioning they own another 4 or 5.

The Scottish Whisky Association has 90 members, is the 15 coming from only 15 owning the 90?

"The SWA represents over 90 companies from across the Scotch Whisky industry, from global spirits producers to family-owned firms, established to new distillers, that accounts for the majority of Scotch Whisky production"

[CropleyWasGod]

But as for many other Scottish businesses and resources internationally owned the profits go elsewhere. Had to have a chuckle at the comments on The Scottish Whisky Association being all for this, the Scottish Whisky protectors lol, the kilt wearing dram busters? Out of the 15 businesses that make the association up IIRC only 2 are Scottish owned. Diageo having the cheek to list themselves once as themselves but not mentioning they own another 4 or 5.

I had a quick look at the accounts of Chivas Brothers, who own Glenlivet.

The profits were shared between dividends and HMRC, with the rest being retained within the company. Retained for future acquistions and expansion, like any profitable company. For example, there is a commitment to spend £87m on expansion. That expansion will likely result in more jobs within the company, as well as the positive effects on the wider local and Scottish economy.

A large part of the dividends will, of course, go to the parent company. However, if the owners were Scottish, is there any guarantee that their share of the profits would be spent in Scotland? I sometimes think that the ownership element is overplayed.

[grunt]

:hilarious

Ok. It's terrible news. Should have stuck with the 150%.

So you're happy with 75% tariffs then? In fact you think it's hilarious?

[Andy Bee]

The Scottish Whisky Association has 90 members, is the 15 coming from only 15 owning the 90?

"The SWA represents over 90 companies from across the Scotch Whisky industry, from global spirits producers to family-owned firms, established to new distillers, that accounts for the majority of Scotch Whisky production"

I aint going down this rabbit hole, Scottish Whisky Association = Diageo and various other US firms mixed with a fair bit Asian owners and IIRC a Swiss company funnily enough. It certainly isn't a crack force of bearded Scotsmen with Sgian Dubhs in hand ready for the fight for Scottish honour you portray. As for the estimated "over 1000 jobs created" I'll file that in the same BS cupboard I put the 59000 jobs estimated by GB Energy. It's under 2% export and the same import. In the words of a great man I greatly respect "MEH"

[Bristolhibby]

NI equivalent pretty much the same but it seems slightly more in India. Plus it's only Indian companies that can do this UK companies if hiring the Indian person still needs to pay NI in the UK.

We have similar deals in place with countries like Canada, US, South Korea, Japan. Labour's comms have been poor on this

Labours comms are always poor. They have been since the election. Really poor at selling what they are actually doing right.

They must yearn for the days of a Spin Doctor like Alistair Campbell.

They must seize the initiative.

J

[Hibs4185]

Juts watching sky news and they are talking about the India trade deal.

Interviewing the owner of Chivas regal about the impact on scotch whisky industry……..from Paris and his name is a gold solid scottish name…..Jean Étienne Gougues, who looks very happy about the deal.

[Stairway 2 7]

Multi nationals are a part of capitalism but the whisky industry is undoubtedly a bonus for Scotland regardless of where the shareholder profits go. Lots of good paying jobs in areas that struggle in that regard. It's also a magnet for tourism and tourist cash, again away from the central belt.

[Andy Bee]

Juts watching sky news and they are talking about the India trade deal.

Interviewing the owner of Chivas regal about the impact on scotch whisky industry……..from Paris and his name is a gold solid scottish name…..Jean Étienne Gougues, who looks very happy about the deal.

I'm sure Chivas Regal is owned by Pernod, might be wrong though. Pernod was yon disgusting liqourishy stuff overindulged in by many an adolescent in the early 90's. Those were the days, toilets in a sea of pink sickness and an odour of Liquorice Allsorts.

[Ozyhibby]

Multi nationals are a part of capitalism but the whisky industry is undoubtedly a bonus for Scotland regardless of where the shareholder profits go. Lots of good paying jobs in areas that struggle in that regard. It's also a magnet for tourism and tourist cash, again away from the central belt.

And there are plenty Scottish shareholders in foreign firms, directly or indirectly.

The EU deal with India is almost done as well. We’ll know then how it stacks up. If Irish Whiskey has a better or worse tariff rate.


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[Stairway 2 7]

And there are plenty Scottish shareholders in foreign firms, directly or indirectly.

The EU deal with India is almost done as well. We’ll know then how it stacks up. If Irish Whiskey has a better or worse tariff rate.


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What about America. This free trade stuff looks great and mutually beneficial

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sure Chivas Regal is owned by Pernod, might be wrong though. Pernod was yon disgusting liqourishy stuff overindulged in by many an adolescent in the early 90's. Those were the days, toilets in a sea of pink sickness and an odour of Liquorice Allsorts.

Yeah. If memory serves me right, pernod Ricardo acquired chivas around 2002. My wife worked for Campbell distillers, part of the pernod empire.

[Ozyhibby]

What about America. This free trade stuff looks great and mutually beneficial

https://www.theatlantic.com/economy/archive/2025/05/trump-tariffs-liberals/682697/?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=681b6593925fde0001972ec9&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky

Tough time for those on the left who support tariffs.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theatlantic.com/economy/archive/2025/05/trump-tariffs-liberals/682697/?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=681b6593925fde0001972ec9&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky

Tough time for those on the left who support tariffs.


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Cheers for that never read about that before. Is that why many in the left were pro brexit, seeing its mostly a trade alliance. I remember Corbyn being non committal on brexit

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm sure Chivas Regal is owned by Pernod, might be wrong though. Pernod was yon disgusting liqourishy stuff overindulged in by many an adolescent in the early 90's. Those were the days, toilets in a sea of pink sickness and an odour of Liquorice Allsorts.

Chivas Brothers, who make Glenlivet and Chivas Regal, are owned by Allied Domecq, who in turn are owned by Pernod Ricard S.A.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250507/0469eb7675efa532ec8a667a18d53023.png
Lot of this from Labour but no recognition of the fact they are losing or what they are going to do to change things?[emoji2369]


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[grunt]

So Chancellor Rachel Reeves was in Scotland today.
I wonder, what did she have to say to the Scottish people who voted for her?

...

Nothing. No comment. No interviews with any Scottish papers.

[jamie_1875]

So Chancellor Rachel Reeves was in Scotland today.
I wonder, what did she have to say to the Scottish people who voted for her?

...

Nothing. No comment. No interviews with any Scottish papers.

She did interviews with both BBC Scotland and STV I believe so if people wanted to hear her they had their opportunity. An interview with The National was likely not a priority for her.

Here you go if your interested in hearing from her today.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/north-sea-windfall-tax-and-winter-fuel-payment-stand-despite-lost-votes-says-chancellor

[Kato]

Even Labour don't like Labour atm. What's the odds on Starmer being told to scram soonish? Get Jeremy back in, that'll put the cat amongst the thingmies.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7050ex1zjjo

If Labour listen to this guy and implement some of his proposals then they might have some success. They have already commissioned a review though so likely nothing will get done.
Would be good if the SNP could look at some of the proposals though.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

indeed :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/495273151_4023365047907425_4933480452705572794_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=yIIgtJhZt24Q7kNvwFhOeHI&_nc_oc=AdlDF1WzD9abFbkOTbs7QEHLcrBdxHOOo31eM_Pfczr OEmmd43dheIzE_TXp4CNnoOA&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=jBlhnEIDy5PjjFknj2sA_w&oh=00_AfITr4CBlyQPmKFE0n_l-LXU42Lip7fypt8Wj5164u0CHQ&oe=6822A357

[jamie_1875]

indeed :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/495273151_4023365047907425_4933480452705572794_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=yIIgtJhZt24Q7kNvwFhOeHI&_nc_oc=AdlDF1WzD9abFbkOTbs7QEHLcrBdxHOOo31eM_Pfczr OEmmd43dheIzE_TXp4CNnoOA&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=jBlhnEIDy5PjjFknj2sA_w&oh=00_AfITr4CBlyQPmKFE0n_l-LXU42Lip7fypt8Wj5164u0CHQ&oe=6822A357

That's not a quote from 2025, it was in a 2021 interview. He also said in 2021 there would be another Indy Ref in the next 5 years. He was wrong.

[grunt]

That's not a quote from 2025, it was in a 2021 interview. He also said in 2021 there would be another Indy Ref in the next 5 years. He was wrong.Labour politicians; always lying.

[Andy Bee]

US trade deal announced apparently, no whisky mentioned and seemingly ethanol is included which Starmer reckons is used to make beer, erm if that's the case there's gonna be a whole load of blind beer drinkers. :faf:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/25148801.scotch-whisky-left-starmer-trump-strike-uk-us-trade-deal/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1746718446-3

[Andy Bee]

Is this true, are the beaches of Musselburgh marred by sewage related debris?

https://x.com/DaveDooganSNP/status/1920509005430206886

[grunt]

Is this true, are the beaches of Musselburgh marred by sewage related debris?

https://x.com/DaveDooganSNP/status/1920509005430206886My MP. ******.

[Just Alf]

I'm sure Chivas Regal is owned by Pernod, might be wrong though. Pernod was yon disgusting liqourishy stuff overindulged in by many an adolescent in the early 90's. Those were the days, toilets in a sea of pink sickness and an odour of Liquorice Allsorts.Sorry [emoji20]


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[CropleyWasGod]

Is this true, are the beaches of Musselburgh marred by sewage related debris?

https://x.com/DaveDooganSNP/status/1920509005430206886

It might explain the recent upsurge in anti-social behaviour in Porty. The local radges are clearly drinking the sea water.

[Andy Bee]

It might explain the recent upsurge in anti-social behaviour in Porty. The local radges are clearly drinking the sea water.

Or Ethanol beer. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Or Ethanol beer. :greengrin

Urmm ia that not exactly what beer is…fermented barley into ethanol = alcoholic beverage called beer?

Not quite a great marketing tactic tho…and defo not with ‘with added USA tariff free ethanol’ [emoji2957]

[Andy Bee]

Urmm ia that not exactly what beer is…fermented barley into ethanol = alcoholic beverage called beer?

Not quite a great marketing tactic tho…and defo not with ‘with added USA tariff free ethanol’ [emoji2957]

:greengrin I'll tell you what RS, I've got a drum in my garage half full of ethanol, it gives my car a good amount more boost. I'm willing to fill a couple of pints and deliver them to your door and we'll have a tipple, you need to go first though and to make you aware I'll have a disclaimer for you to sign. :greengrin

[Andy Bee]

The old guy has still got it, Labour really shot themselves in the foot letting this guy go along with the pocket rocket Zarah Sultana.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of2PAUbTDec

[RyeSloan]

:greengrin I'll tell you what RS, I've got a drum in my garage half full of ethanol, it gives my car a good amount more boost. I'm willing to fill a couple of pints and deliver them to your door and we'll have a tipple, you need to go first though and to make you aware I'll have a disclaimer for you to sign. :greengrin

Proper session with proper rocket fuel…now yer talking [emoji123]

Let me check my diary and I’ll come back to ya….[emoji12]

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgle2xkg3wpo

Huge cuts to NHS in England.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgle2xkg3wpo

Huge cuts to NHS in England.


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How can the budget go up by £22 billion above inflation and they still run over. NHS is so badly run. We spend similar amounts on health as nations like Ireland and France who have private health care but we have much poorer outcomes

[Andy Bee]

How can the budget go up by £22 billion above inflation and they still run over. NHS is so badly run. We spend similar amounts on health as nations like Ireland and France who have private health care but we have much poorer outcomes

I read an article the other day that went into the role private health were playing. It covered cataract operations which were being passed over to private health, 21/22 seen 21% of operations passed over, 22/23 seen a rise up to 55% which cost in the region of £700m with £169m of that being profit. A 32% profit margin was being mentioned. I suppose this is what's meant by privatisation by the back door. The BMA also had concerns because skills are being lost because of the lack of practical experience in the NHS.

[jamie_1875]

I read an article the other day that went into the role private health were playing. It covered cataract operations which were being passed over to private health, 21/22 seen 21% of operations passed over, 22/23 seen a rise up to 55% which cost in the region of £700m with £169m of that being profit. A 32% profit margin was being mentioned. I suppose this is what's meant by privatisation by the back door. The BMA also had concerns because skills are being lost because of the lack of practical experience in the NHS.

Is that outsourcing though, the people getting the operations did they pay for them or did the NHS pay for it?

Not ideal I agree and ideally all should be done in the NHS but if the patients get their operation quicker is that a bad outcome for them? Suggest no it's a good outcome for them.

[Andy Bee]

Is that outsourcing though, the people getting the operations did they pay for them or did the NHS pay for it?

Not ideal I agree and ideally all should be done in the NHS but if the patients get their operation quicker is that a bad outcome for them? Suggest no it's a good outcome for them.

NHS paid for them, it's understandable when the waiting lists are so long but I'm sure I read Streeting had extended PH contracts to 10 years. I'm not sure you can blame waiting lists for that length of time.

[jamie_1875]

NHS paid for them, it's understandable when the waiting lists are so long but I'm sure I read Streeting had extended PH contracts to 10 years. I'm not sure you can blame waiting lists for that length of time.

The NHS has been in "crisis" for way more than 10 years and until someone is willing to admit it needs radical reform it will continue to be so in 5, 10, 20 years time.

[Moulin Yarns]

Going full on Reform now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c626dyd8y8wo


Because we've got plenty care workers who are British??

[Ozyhibby]

Going full on Reform now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c626dyd8y8wo


Because we've got plenty care workers who are British??

How come those who say we need to train our own people to do the jobs never put in place a plan to do so before we start restricting immigration?
Where is the Labour plan to train and employ all the local workers they need?
Is it possible it’s just racism?


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[Moulin Yarns]

How come those who say we need to train our own people to do the jobs never put in place a plan to do so before we start restricting immigration?
Where is the Labour plan to train and employ all the local workers they need?
Is it possible it’s just racism?


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My niece is a training provider for a reasonably large care provider in Yorkshire and delivers the same training to new recruitment regularly, because the staff often leave because it's harder than they imagined.

Guess who her MP is?

Aye, the same yvette cooper!

[Ozyhibby]

My niece is a training provider for a reasonably large care provider in Yorkshire and delivers the same training to new recruitment regularly, because the staff often leave because it's harder than they imagined.

Guess who her MP is?

Aye, the same yvette cooper!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250511/305997dbd84a19ce6b5e37687b0d6f7e.jpg


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[grunt]

Can't tell if this was written by the Tories or Reform.

"The damage this has done ... is incalculable".
https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:hrzbbg3ul7kqmh3u2noouqm3/bafkreibkzfrpylhrbo23svv5erlvkbxrqtmkbejdteirbxgxr 73hajprnu@jpeg

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250512/dc6f2f1a9f39ce857931b716d83da19d.jpg


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[Bishop Hibee]

Starmer’s gallop to the far right on immigration makes me sick. Kate Forbes who’s centre-right politically was excellent on Radio Scotland this morning when she said Scotland needs immigration or we’re screwed economically.

Are their any Labour supporters on here who’re prepared to support Starmer in his immigration stance?

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer’s gallop to the far right on immigration makes me sick. Kate Forbes who’s centre-right politically was excellent on Radio Scotland this morning when she said Scotland needs immigration or we’re screwed economically.

Are their any Labour supporters on here who’re prepared to support Starmer in his immigration stance?

It should not even be a debate. We are a rapidly ageing society which will soon be in viable without with immigration or a massive uptake in fertility.


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[CropleyWasGod]

I've often wondered whether a more imaginative approach to immigration might be worth exploring.

Some areas of the UK (Scotland being one) need more people, while others feel the pressure of having too many people. The latter tend to be areas of already high population, to where immigrants will be drawn due to better prospects of jobs, schools, health support and community support.

Is there mileage in issuing visas with conditions, such as what part of the UK an immigrant can live or work? That might help redistribute the population in a more efficient and manageable way.

[Ozyhibby]

I've often wondered whether a more imaginative approach to immigration might be worth exploring.

Some areas of the UK (Scotland being one) need more people, while others feel the pressure of having too many people. The latter tend to be areas of already high population, to where immigrants will be drawn due to better prospects of jobs, schools, health support and community support.

Is there mileage in issuing visas with conditions, such as what part of the UK an immigrant can live or work? That might help redistribute the population in a more efficient and manageable way.

The SNP have asked for this for Scotland but have been turned down.


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[Keith_M]

I've often wondered whether a more imaginative approach to immigration might be worth exploring.

Some areas of the UK (Scotland being one) need more people, while others feel the pressure of having too many people. The latter tend to be areas of already high population, to where immigrants will be drawn due to better prospects of jobs, schools, health support and community support.

Is there mileage in issuing visas with conditions, such as what part of the UK an immigrant can live or work? That might help redistribute the population in a more efficient and manageable way.


It sounds logical but would be a nightmare to police.

I'm also not 100% convinced that Scotland is currently prepared for large scale migration. Yes there might be a need for it but I'd imagine a lot of work would have to be done first to ensure we have an adequate level of (affordable) housing and services.



p.s. No, I'm not a Reform voter, just trying to be practical ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

The SNP have asked for this for Scotland but have been turned down.


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I remember Jack McConnell asking for this way back.

When did the current Government ask?

[Ozyhibby]

I remember Jack McConnell asking for this way back.

When did the current Government ask?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5zdwrpn49o

This was just recently but it’s been a long standing request.


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[Ozyhibby]

It sounds logical but would be a nightmare to police.

I'm also not 100% convinced that Scotland is currently prepared for large scale migration. Yes there might be a need for it but I'd imagine a lot of work would have to be done first to ensure we have an adequate level of (affordable) housing and services.



p.s. No, I'm not a Reform voter, just trying to be practical ;-)

Doesn’t need to be mass migration just a higher level than England wants. A level where we can mitigate some of our demographic challenges.
We do need to build more housing no matter what we do though.
The tax system can be used to police it with new migrants given Scotland only UTR numbers or NI numbers.


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5zdwrpn49o

This was just recently but it’s been a long standing request.


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Ta.

Sounds like the same reasons Tony Blair put forward all those years ago. I can probably understand it from a "one UK" perspective, but as the guy from the Western Isles says, one size doesn't fit all.

[grunt]

Sounds like the same reasons Tony Blair put forward all those years ago. I can probably understand it from a "one UK" perspective, but as the guy from the Western Isles says, one size doesn't fit all.
One of the benefits of the Union. We all sink together.

[Jack]

I've often wondered whether a more imaginative approach to immigration might be worth exploring.

Some areas of the UK (Scotland being one) need more people, while others feel the pressure of having too many people. The latter tend to be areas of already high population, to where immigrants will be drawn due to better prospects of jobs, schools, health support and community support.

Is there mileage in issuing visas with conditions, such as what part of the UK an immigrant can live or work? That might help redistribute the population in a more efficient and manageable way.

Your imaginative approach just nudged me with a light bulb moment. This isn't a direct response to your comment although it aligns a wee bit.

I enjoy cruising (on ships 😆).

One company I cruise with has a 'finishing school' in India where they train all manner of crew that is needed to run a ship; technical crew for the engines and down below stuff; waiters, bar staff, kitchen staff, hotel staff etc upstairs so to speak. Only the decent ones are offered a job.

These people work for months at sea then get a break then back at sea for months again. No long term visas, no family on board. Apparently they're lining up round the block for this opportunity.

Maybe the UK care homes association or whatever could make a similar arrangement work for carers?

[Ozyhibby]

Your imaginative approach just nudged me with a light bulb moment. This isn't a direct response to your comment although it aligns a wee bit.

I enjoy cruising (on ships [emoji38]).

One company I cruise with has a 'finishing school' in India where they train all manner of crew that is needed to run a ship; technical crew for the engines and down below stuff; waiters, bar staff, kitchen staff, hotel staff etc upstairs so to speak. Only the decent ones are offered a job.

These people work for months at sea then get a break then back at sea for months again. No long term visas, no family on board. Apparently they're lining up round the block for this opportunity.

Maybe the UK care homes association or whatever could make a similar arrangement work for carers?

You’re not being imaginative enough. Why not just put all the old people to sea?[emoji6][emoji23]
Seriously though, guest worker programmes are pretty common but that won’t solve Starmers problem because they still get counted as being here.

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[Hibs4185]

I have Asian friends in Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford. There is no doubt that there is areas where I wouldn’t go if I wasn’t with one of my friends.

I can see why some English folk have problems with immigration because a lot of areas see such a concentration of different nationalities.

In Scorland, we have no such problem.

I tend to think that is Scottish are so welcoming that immigrants settle where they want and where they can. I mean the English aren’t the most loved throughout the world and not the most welcoming, which is why I think immigrants tend to congregate in one area and stick together which in turn breeds nationalism.

That’s my theory anyway

[Hibrandenburg]

I have Asian friends in Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford. There is no doubt that there is areas where I wouldn’t go if I wasn’t with one of my friends.

I can see why some English folk have problems with immigration because a lot of areas see such a concentration of different nationalities.

In Scorland, we have no such problem.

I tend to think that is Scottish are so welcoming that immigrants settle where they want and where they can. I mean the English aren’t the most loved throughout the world and not the most welcoming, which is why I think immigrants tend to congregate in one area and stick together which in turn breeds nationalism.

That’s my theory anyway

No matter where you go in the world, you will find that immigrants gravitate to that what they are familiar with and that normally means each other.

[Hibs4185]

No matter where you go in the world, you will find that immigrants gravitate to that what they are familiar with and that normally means each other.

Not so much in scotland though? Maybe pollokshields in Glasgow but can’t think of anywhere else in Scotland?

We don’t have any of the immigration problems that England has

[Ozyhibby]

No matter where you go in the world, you will find that immigrants gravitate to that what they are familiar with and that normally means each other.

Absolutely. When I lived in Oz all my mates were mostly from the UK. We all played footy and went out together.


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