The future of the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

Anyways, enough of the Scottish utopia, back to the "future of the Labour Party"

Wes Streeting reckons fat (TBF he calls them obese) unemployed folk should be offered the anti fat jab to get them back in employment :rotflmao: Erm so who actually decides someone is overweight and needs this jab? Do you go to the Dole Office (is that still a thing?) and offer yourself up for work only to be told nah you're too fat mate and you're gonna need the fat jab, benefits suspended until you've lost 5 stone? A weight limit for unemployment benefit?

https://x.com/bolsh3vik/status/1846116880018272521

Wouldn’t it be people who are already medically signed off their work because of the weight problem?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/westminster-looking-at-scotland-specific-immigration-visa-4825683?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1729064839

This is a good idea. Will wait and see if implemented.


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[Paul1642]

Anyways, enough of the Scottish utopia, back to the "future of the Labour Party"

Wes Streeting reckons fat (TBF he calls them obese) unemployed folk should be offered the anti fat jab to get them back in employment :rotflmao: Erm so who actually decides someone is overweight and needs this jab? Do you go to the Dole Office (is that still a thing?) and offer yourself up for work only to be told nah you're too fat mate and you're gonna need the fat jab, benefits suspended until you've lost 5 stone? A weight limit for unemployment benefit?

https://x.com/bolsh3vik/status/1846116880018272521

It will be people who have a doctor’s note saying they can’t work due to their weight, and are therefore claiming the associated benefits. Also the jab isn’t going to be forced on anybody, it will be presented as an option.

Seems fair to me.

[Bostonhibby]

Anyways, enough of the Scottish utopia, back to the "future of the Labour Party"

Wes Streeting reckons fat (TBF he calls them obese) unemployed folk should be offered the anti fat jab to get them back in employment :rotflmao: Erm so who actually decides someone is overweight and needs this jab? Do you go to the Dole Office (is that still a thing?) and offer yourself up for work only to be told nah you're too fat mate and you're gonna need the fat jab, benefits suspended until you've lost 5 stone? A weight limit for unemployment benefit?

https://x.com/bolsh3vik/status/1846116880018272521Wes Streeting is Matt Hancock's long lost slightly thicker brother.

A disappointing, concerning appointment to a very important position.

The jab thing doesn't concern me, whether it would work to get people back into work or not it's currently just a soundbite.

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[lapsedhibee]

Wes Streeting is Matt Hancock's long lost slightly thicker brother.

Don't know about being thicker than Hancock - 'that's quite a charge' - but always find Streeting to be a bit Derek Hattonish. Probably just the motor mouth.

[Bostonhibby]

Don't know about being thicker than Hancock - 'that's quite a charge' - but always find Streeting to be a bit Derek Hattonish. Probably just the motor mouth.Yeah, forgot about him, reasonable comparison too.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/westminster-looking-at-scotland-specific-immigration-visa-4825683?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1729064839

This is a good idea. Will wait and see if implemented.


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Forget it again. Back to normal. Westminster knows what we need and will look after us.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Forget it again. Back to normal. Westminster knows what we need and will look after us.


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We don't need it. Net migration to Scotland last year was an absolutely massive 48,800 that would be 600k in the UK. These things spiral too if you need or want it. Edinburgh has a massive number of Indians and Chinese now and foreign nationals follow where a community is. We just need to make sure services are built to manage that huge increase we had or reform will be rubbing their hands

[jamie_1875]

We don't need it. Net migration to Scotland last year was an absolutely massive 48,800 that would be 600k in the UK. These things spiral too if you need or want it. Edinburgh has a massive number of Indians and Chinese now and foreign nationals follow where a community is. We just need to make sure services are built to manage that huge increase we had or reform will be rubbing their hands

I agree I don't understand why we need a Scotland specific Visa, migration into the UK is high. 1.2M people migrated to the UK in 2023 so imagine if Scotland attracted just 10% of that on an annual basis that would be 120K a year and over 10 years 1.2M which would be a huge 21% population increase.

We should be doing more to attract people to Scotland now.

Edit: Net migration may reduce the overall population numbers but even then the point stands we do not need a Scotland only Visa as migration is high.

[Jack]

I agree I don't understand why we need a Scotland specific Visa, migration into the UK is high. 1.2M people migrated to the UK in 2023 so imagine if Scotland attracted just 10% of that on an annual basis that would be 120K a year and over 10 years 1.2M which would be a huge 21% population increase.

We should be doing more to attract people to Scotland now.

Edit: Net migration may reduce the overall population numbers but even then the point stands we do not need a Scotland only Visa as migration is high.

We're nowhere near that number though.

Scotland’s population was estimated to be 5,490,100 at mid-2023 (30 June 2023).

The population increased by 43,100 (0.8%) in the year to mid-2023. This is the largest single-year increase in Scotland’s population in at least 76 years.

Migration was the main driver of population growth over the last year. Net international migration was +47,700 in the year to mid-2023. Net migration between elsewhere in the UK and Scotland was +13,900.*

National Records of Scotland

[jamie_1875]

We're nowhere near that number though.

Scotland’s population was estimated to be 5,490,100 at mid-2023 (30 June 2023).

The population increased by 43,100 (0.8%) in the year to mid-2023. This is the largest single-year increase in Scotland’s population in at least 76 years.

Migration was the main driver of population growth over the last year. Net international migration was +47,700 in the year to mid-2023. Net migration between elsewhere in the UK and Scotland was +13,900.*

National Records of Scotland

Yes so what's stopping a good % of the 1.2M people that migrate to the UK coming to Scotland to live and work? Why do we need a separate Visa if there are already 1.2M people coming to the UK each year?

"What are the UK’s latest migrations statistics?
The latest estimates on migration from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) suggest that in 2023:

1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 532,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 685,000. This represents the balance of long-term migrants moving in and out of the country"

[Stairway 2 7]

We're nowhere near that number though.

Scotland’s population was estimated to be 5,490,100 at mid-2023 (30 June 2023).

The population increased by 43,100 (0.8%) in the year to mid-2023. This is the largest single-year increase in Scotland’s population in at least 76 years.

Migration was the main driver of population growth over the last year. Net international migration was +47,700 in the year to mid-2023. Net migration between elsewhere in the UK and Scotland was +13,900.*

National Records of Scotland

Population increase of 43k is massive for a country our size and must be near the top end in Europe per head. 48k net migration is fantastic. UK is one of the few European countries not facing massive Population drops in the next 50 years due to our huge migration figures. The tories cosplay that they don't want migration but they want workers to help the profits of their chums too.

[grunt]

I agree I don't understand why we need a Scotland specific Visa, migration into the UK is high.


Why do we need a separate Visa if there are already 1.2M people coming to the UK each year?

Presumably if we had a Scotland visa we could use it to attract the people with the specific skills that we need here in Scotland, rather than take pot luck on those who can come to the UK under Westminster rules?

[jamie_1875]

Presumably if we had a Scotland visa we could use it to attract the people with the specific skills that we need here in Scotland, rather than take pot luck on those who can come to the UK under Westminster rules?

I would be surprised if in the 1.2M people coming to the UK there isn't a good mix of people with the skills required whatever they are.

Has there been any actual details on what if any special requirements Scotland needs that the rest of the UK doesn't need?

[grunt]

I would be surprised if in the 1.2M people coming to the UK there isn't a good mix of people with the skills required whatever they are.
Oh we just have to hope for the best then? That's no way to run a country. There's little point in devolution if we can't determine the skills mix of the people we need.

It seems that we don't even get to discuss this at Westminster. Labour says no:


But the Home Office has since slapped down the suggestion that a Scottish visa was being considered.

A Home Office spokesperson told The National: “This is not government policy and not something the Home Secretary is considering.”

[Ozyhibby]

My cousin run a very large company in Preston England that has massive contracts in construction and maintenance etc.<•(HS2, Heathrow, Edinburgh trams etc.) He wad telling me at a recent family do that there are great projects in Scotland that he just doesn’t bid for now because the English and Irish lads don’t want to go north and since Brexit there is nobody else. This is high paid good civil engineering jobs.


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[jamie_1875]

Oh we just have to hope for the best then? That's no way to run a country. There's little point in devolution if we can't determine the skills mix of the people we need.

It seems that we don't even get to discuss this at Westminster. Labour says no:

Why can't we attract more of the 1.2M into Scotland? That question has been asked multiple times now, no answer seems to be forthcoming.

What would be in the Scotland only Visa then? Say the Home Office said yes what would be in the requirements that doesn't seem to be in the requirements today?

[jamie_1875]

My cousin run a very large company in Preston England that has massive contracts in construction and maintenance etc.<•(HS2, Heathrow, Edinburgh trams etc.) He wad telling me at a recent family do that there are great projects in Scotland that he just doesn’t bid for now because the English and Irish lads don’t want to go north and since Brexit there is nobody else. This is high paid good civil engineering jobs.


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Did he say why they don't want to work in Scotland?

[grunt]

Starmer: what a massive disappointment.

[Ozyhibby]

Did he say why they don't want to work in Scotland?

It’s not as fun working in a big city down south. He said they just done want to work up here if there are other options down south.


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[Stairway 2 7]

My cousin run a very large company in Preston England that has massive contracts in construction and maintenance etc.<•(HS2, Heathrow, Edinburgh trams etc.) He wad telling me at a recent family do that there are great projects in Scotland that he just doesn’t bid for now because the English and Irish lads don’t want to go north and since Brexit there is nobody else. This is high paid good civil engineering jobs.


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Why don't they want to go north, higher tax?

[Stairway 2 7]

Presumably if we had a Scotland visa we could use it to attract the people with the specific skills that we need here in Scotland, rather than take pot luck on those who can come to the UK under Westminster rules?

We can bring who we want already but they need to want to come there isn't many barriers on skilled professionals or students. Net migration was massive anyway so it's not really an issue, hopefully it continues and I'm sure it will

[Moulin Yarns]

A wee search of Google throws up this!!!

The UK has introduced several new immigration restrictions in 2024, including:

Salary requirements
The minimum salary for a skilled worker visa increased to £38,700 per year on April 4, 2024. The minimum salary for a spouse visa increased to £29,000 on April 11, 2024.

Dependants
Restrictions have been placed on the ability of healthcare, care worker, and international student visa holders to bring their dependents.

Immigration Healthcare Surcharge (IHS)
The IHS has increased to £1,035 per year.

Long residence rules
Applicants must not stay outside the UK for more than 180 days in any 12-month rolling period.

Care workers
A ban was put in place on newly arriving care workers bringing immediate family on March 11, 2024.

Shortage Occupation List
The Shortage Occupation List was replaced by an interim Immigration Salary List on April 4, 2024.

Regularization
The government has introduced limited pathways to regularization for illegal immigrants who have been in the UK for a long time. Applicants must meet strict criteria, including having a clean criminal record and evidence of long-term residency.

The UK implemented a points-based immigration system on January 1, 2021, which prioritizes skills and talent over where a person comes from.

[Stairway 2 7]

A wee search of Google throws up this!!!

The UK has introduced several new immigration restrictions in 2024, including:

Salary requirements
The minimum salary for a skilled worker visa increased to £38,700 per year on April 4, 2024. The minimum salary for a spouse visa increased to £29,000 on April 11, 2024.

Dependants
Restrictions have been placed on the ability of healthcare, care worker, and international student visa holders to bring their dependents.

Immigration Healthcare Surcharge (IHS)
The IHS has increased to £1,035 per year.

Long residence rules
Applicants must not stay outside the UK for more than 180 days in any 12-month rolling period.

Care workers
A ban was put in place on newly arriving care workers bringing immediate family on March 11, 2024.

Shortage Occupation List
The Shortage Occupation List was replaced by an interim Immigration Salary List on April 4, 2024.

Regularization
The government has introduced limited pathways to regularization for illegal immigrants who have been in the UK for a long time. Applicants must meet strict criteria, including having a clean criminal record and evidence of long-term residency.

The UK implemented a points-based immigration system on January 1, 2021, which prioritizes skills and talent over where a person comes from.

IMF and home office still expecting net migration to be 300 to 400k per year into the UK over the next 5 years with these rules. That's well bellow the 800k net migration we had but still massive compared to the rest of Europe.

UKs population increase has really been enormous post brexit, I'm not sure that's what they voted for

[grunt]

We can bring who we want already but they need to want to come there isn't many barriers on skilled professionals or students.



Salary requirements - The minimum salary for a skilled worker visa increased to £38,700 per year on April 4, 2024. The minimum salary for a spouse visa increased to £29,000 on April 11, 2024.
Dependants - Restrictions have been placed on the ability of healthcare, care worker, and international student visa holders to bring their dependents.
Immigration Healthcare Surcharge (IHS) - The IHS has increased to £1,035 per year.
Long residence rules - Applicants must not stay outside the UK for more than 180 days in any 12-month rolling period.
Care workers - A ban was put in place on newly arriving care workers bringing immediate family on March 11, 2024.


"We can bring who we want"? Have you not been paying attention for the last four years?

[Stairway 2 7]

"We can bring who we want"? Have you not been paying attention for the last four years?

So we are going to bring in an estimated 800k skilled workers this year and 1.2 million last, it's literally a problem any country would love. John Burn Murdoch wrote a good article on how the UK is getting immigrants who are a financial net positive whilst mainland Europe are getting financial net negative from their immigrants. When you look at the absolute massive numbers of immigrants we got the last 5 years and factor in their age and skill then it really was a goldmine. Scotland has the same system so they will be skilled too and a net positive.

https://archive.is/71H7N
The Anglosphere has an advantage on immigration
English-speaking countries generally do better at both attracting and integrating talent

[Moulin Yarns]

IMF and home office still expecting net migration to be 300 to 400k per year into the UK over the next 5 years with these rules. That's well bellow the 800k net migration we had but still massive compared to the rest of Europe.

UKs population increase has really been enormous post brexit, I'm not sure that's what they voted for

Europe doesn't need immigration, they have a thing called freedom of movement which we threw away.


In 2022, 5.1 million people immigrated to the EU from non-EU countries, which was a 117% increase from 2021. This was more than double the estimated 2.4 million in 2021.

Intra-EU migration
In 2022, 1.5 million people moved from one EU member state to another, which was a 7% increase from 2021

[jamie_1875]

Europe doesn't need immigration, they have a thing called freedom of movement which we threw away.

Isn't that freedom of movement within the EU though, so if 100,000 leave Romania and go to Germany then the net movement across the EU is 0 as Germany is up 100,000 but Romania is negative 100,000. Maybe Romania need to replace the 100,000?

[Moulin Yarns]

Isn't that freedom of movement within the EU though, so if 100,000 leave Romania and go to Germany then the net movement across the EU is 0 as Germany is up 100,000 but Romania is negative 100,000. Maybe Romania need to replace the 100,000?

See my edit

[Stairway 2 7]

Europe doesn't need immigration, they have a thing called freedom of movement which we threw away.

Eh. Yet since we ended freedom of movement to the EU our immigration numbers sky rocketed dwarfing most of Europe. Some in Europe need more immigration badly they are facing a demographic nightmare of shrinking aging populations with low birth rates, who is going to pay all those pensions. Germany's population is expected to drop 4 million in the next 26 years, Italy 5 million. Even with the new rules in place ONS is expecting our population to grow by 10 million to 78 million in the next 26 years. It's an absolutely massive increase and we'll need to build the services to match

Probably due to our language advantage we're also getting net contributers unlike Europe who are getting net negatives. Immigration has been one of the few plus points of the UK in the last decade

[jamie_1875]

See my edit

Ok but you said Europe doesn't need immigration due to freedom of movement, point still stands that freedom of movement results in no net movement across the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

Why don't they want to go north, higher tax?

Possibly but he didn’t mention that, it was more that they don’t want to live in more rural areas. Having lower tax would def help though.


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[grunt]

Possibly but he didn’t mention that, it was more that they don’t want to live in more rural areas. Having lower tax would def help though.
Evidence for this? Are people deciding not to work in Scotland because of our different tax rates?

[MKHIBEE]

Starmer: what a massive disappointment.

I thought he would be, didn’t vote Labour, but I’m still gobsmacked at his ineptitude.

[lapsedhibee]

I thought he would be, didn’t vote Labour, but I’m still gobsmacked at his ineptitude.

Labour cabinet snouts STILL trotting out the 'all done within the rules' mantra for their FA bribes. Depressing stuff.

[Ozyhibby]

Evidence for this? Are people deciding not to work in Scotland because of our different tax rates?

I was sharing an anecdote so no evidence. It wouldn’t surprise me though. If I was earning £50k down south I would be reluctant to transfer to Scotland and have to pay more. They won’t know about the lower council tax or other benefits we have. And they may not be important to them anyway. Guys working in civil engineering tend not to be thinking about uni fees or nhs waiting times yet.
Irelands low tax system certainly seems to be helping them. They are running a massive budget surplus and have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it.


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[grunt]

You mean Labour lied in the run up to the election? Surely not.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GR6fldPWkAADvz3?format=jpg&name=medium

[Andy Bee]

Wouldn’t it be people who are already medically signed off their work because of the weight problem?


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TBH I posted with my tongue firmly in cheek regards the jab, although I find it ludicrous that overweight people should be offered drugs to lose weight to get them back in employment, I'm pretty sure these people have a personal plan discussed with their doctor in place . I also find it ludicrous that Liz Kendell thinks part of the solution is to send employment coaches into mental health wards hunting people to join the workforce.

[Ozyhibby]

TBH I posted with my tongue firmly in cheek regards the jab, although I find it ludicrous that overweight people should be offered drugs to lose weight to get them back in employment, I'm pretty sure these people have a personal plan discussed with their doctor in place . I also find it ludicrous that Liz Kendell thinks part of the solution is to send employment coaches into mental health wards hunting people to join the workforce.

The plan should be to get the population healthy first and foremost. That should be the only concern for doctors.
Employment benefits will naturally flow from that but should be considered seperate.


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[Jack]

The plan should be to get the population healthy first and foremost. That should be the only concern for doctors.
Employment benefits will naturally flow from that but should be considered




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While I agree doctors should be part of the solution, getting the population healthy should start way before a doctors intervention.

Healthy homes, healthy schools, making it easier and cheaper to stay healthy beyond that through middle age and into old age. No NHS needed.

As an example I admire those that manage to run sports clubs at the lower end of the social scale despite the huge costs they face from local authorities for the hire of facilities.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/462619518_10161724555634304_2667595151005842802_n. jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=Up9teCAOc1AQ7kNvgHXDYYz&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=AGxRJj1JNwzD47xWaMdksB_&oh=00_AYBiUHgKf7STuGHDATodR1YlONRcL83odZxTJvT29BjV 6w&oe=6718A1A0

[Just Alf]

I was sharing an anecdote so no evidence. It wouldn’t surprise me though. If I was earning £50k down south I would be reluctant to transfer to Scotland and have to pay more. They won’t know about the lower council tax or other benefits we have. And they may not be important to them anyway. Guys working in civil engineering tend not to be thinking about uni fees or nhs waiting times yet.
Irelands low tax system certainly seems to be helping them. They are running a massive budget surplus and have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI had a quick look, for this tax year you pay less tax in Scotland if you earn anything up to £28867. (At that amount it's level)

Tax begins to get lower in England as you go higher.
Once you get to £30k you're 92p per month better off
At £35k it's £5.08 per month
£40k is £9.25 per month.

It does start to widen as you earn more and more though
£50k you're £128.50 a month better off in England.

£100k it's £279 a month

Keeps gradually increasing until

£500k where you're £1373 a month better off down south.

[Paul1642]

I had a quick look, for this tax year you pay less tax in Scotland if you earn anything up to £28867. (At that amount it's level)

Tax begins to get lower in England as you go higher.
Once you get to £30k you're 92p per month better off
At £35k it's £5.08 per month
£40k is £9.25 per month.

It does start to widen as you earn more and more though
£50k you're £128.50 a month better off in England.

£100k it's £279 a month

Keeps gradually increasing until

£500k where you're £1373 a month better off down south.

50k sounds a lot higher a wage than it actually is these days. A single income household in Edinburgh with the sole earner making 50k will be doing fine for themselves but by no means close to what would be considered rich which a 50k salary might have achieved 15 years ago or so (assuming they have a mortgage with this statement).

£128 per month is a lot of money in that situation.

I’d be a bit more for this if the system was making a bigger difference for those on lower wages however from what I can see someone on 20k per year which would be considered a lower income is only around £21 per year better off in terms of tax in Scotland compared to England.

So basically we are taxing the middle earners much higher without passing on the discount to lower earners in any meaningful way.

[Callum_62]

A wee search of Google throws up this!!!

The UK has introduced several new immigration restrictions in 2024, including:

Salary requirements
The minimum salary for a skilled worker visa increased to £38,700 per year on April 4, 2024. The minimum salary for a spouse visa increased to £29,000 on April 11, 2024.

Dependants
Restrictions have been placed on the ability of healthcare, care worker, and international student visa holders to bring their dependents.

Immigration Healthcare Surcharge (IHS)
The IHS has increased to £1,035 per year.

Long residence rules
Applicants must not stay outside the UK for more than 180 days in any 12-month rolling period.

Care workers
A ban was put in place on newly arriving care workers bringing immediate family on March 11, 2024.

Shortage Occupation List
The Shortage Occupation List was replaced by an interim Immigration Salary List on April 4, 2024.

Regularization
The government has introduced limited pathways to regularization for illegal immigrants who have been in the UK for a long time. Applicants must meet strict criteria, including having a clean criminal record and evidence of long-term residency.

The UK implemented a points-based immigration system on January 1, 2021, which prioritizes skills and talent over where a person comes from.If they rules were in place in 2016, my wife - a kiwi with a degree in teaching would not have been able to come here

Absolutely ridiculous, scandalous actually

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[jamie_1875]

If they rules were in place in 2016, my wife - a kiwi with a degree in teaching would not have been able to come here

Absolutely ridiculous, scandalous actually

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I think teachers can still come, so can health and social care workers and the salary rules do not apply.

[Callum_62]

I think teachers can still come, so can health and social care workers and the salary rules do not apply.No- the salary rules apply to all

They needed either a job offer from that value or the British person needs a job offer for over that value,.work in it for 6 months then you can apply for a Visa

Like I said the salary threshold in 2016 was around £19,000 I think (or the equivalent in savings to cover multiple years of supporting the "foreigner")

Now it's up at £38k it's obviously going to stop people who would contribute greatly to the country coming

It's an astonishing rule tbh - genuinely scandalous

The fact is I'm British born here to British parents our child is British and the most likely scenario was me coming here in advance to find a job over that thresholds work for 6 months and then apply for her

So either i separate from our child, or her mum does

It's a cruel, ridiculous rule that has been made much worse given the massive Jump in salary threshold for the "financial requirement"

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[jamie_1875]

No- the salary rules apply to all

They needed either a job offer from that value or the British person needs a job offer for over that value,.work in it for 6 months then you can apply for a Visa

Like I said the salary threshold in 2016 was around £19,000 I think (or the equivalent to cover multiple years in savings)

Now it's up at £38k it's obviously going to stop people who would contribute greatly to the country coming

It's an astonishing rule tbh - genuinely scandalous

The fact is I'm British born here to British parents our child is British and the most likely scenario was me coming here in advance to find a job over that thresholds work for 6 months and then apply for her

So either i separate from our child, or her mum does

It's a cruel, ridiculous rule that has been made much worse given the massive Jump in salty threshold for the "financial requirement"

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48785695

"But since 11 April 2024, they have needed a job offer with a higher salary.

Applicants have to earn at least £38,700 - an increase of nearly 50% from the previous £26,200 minimum.

The threshold does not apply to some jobs - such as in health and social care, and teachers on national pay scales. But overseas care workers can no longer bring family dependants with them."

Unless that is wrong?

[Callum_62]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48785695

"But since 11 April 2024, they have needed a job offer with a higher salary.

Applicants have to earn at least £38,700 - an increase of nearly 50% from the previous £26,200 minimum.

The threshold does not apply to some jobs - such as in health and social care, and teachers on national pay scales. But overseas care workers can no longer bring family dependants with them."

Unless that is wrong?See below regarding skilled worker

Even so, why can't a family with a British dad and daughter bring there wife here without the British person getting a job offer for over 38k and work in it for 6 months, or have a **** tonne in savings (nigh on £100k?) Why is the threshold for a family visa so ridiculously high? It's a cruel rule and one you'd hope a genuine labour party would resolve and make far more humane. As we know though, this isn't a genuine labour party

Salary requirement for a Skilled Worker visa
The salary you need to get a visa depends on if you’re employed as a qualified or unqualified teacher.

The school you’re applying to work in can explain if the role you’re applying for is qualified or unqualified. Qualified roles require more experience or qualifications.

The salary requirement also varies depending on the region you’re applying to work in. You can check which region you’ll be working in with the school employing you.

If you’re employed as a qualified teacher and work in:

inner London, you must earn at least £36,745
outer London, you must earn at least £34,514
London fringe, you must earn at least £31,350
the rest of England, you must earn at least £30,000
If you’re employed as an unqualified teacher and work in:

inner London, you must earn at least £25,831
outer London, you must earn at least £24,415
London fringe, you must earn at least £23,200
the rest of England, you must earn at least £23,200

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[jamie_1875]

See below regarding skilled worker

Even so, why can't a family with a British dad and daughter bring there wife here without the British person getting a job offer for over 38k and work in it for 6 months, or have a **** tonne in savings (nigh on £100k?) Why is the threshold for a family visa so ridiculously high? It's a cruel rule and one you'd hope a genuine labour party would resolve and make far more humane. As we know though, this isn't a genuine labour party

Salary requirement for a Skilled Worker visa
The salary you need to get a visa depends on if you’re employed as a qualified or unqualified teacher.

The school you’re applying to work in can explain if the role you’re applying for is qualified or unqualified. Qualified roles require more experience or qualifications.

The salary requirement also varies depending on the region you’re applying to work in. You can check which region you’ll be working in with the school employing you.

If you’re employed as a qualified teacher and work in:

inner London, you must earn at least £36,745
outer London, you must earn at least £34,514
London fringe, you must earn at least £31,350
the rest of England, you must earn at least £30,000
If you’re employed as an unqualified teacher and work in:

inner London, you must earn at least £25,831
outer London, you must earn at least £24,415
London fringe, you must earn at least £23,200
the rest of England, you must earn at least £23,200

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That is wrong that someone cannot bring a child's mother/father and I would hope that is fixed soon.

[Stairway 2 7]

Looks like Reeves is going to raise taxes by around £40 billion. £18 billion from company national insurance rise, fuel duty rising 7p, inheritance tax rise, capital gains tax rise are the rumours.

Looks like fiscal rules will be changed so billions in infrastructure investment won't be counted in the budget.

Financial Times has a game where you can create your own budget and see how it goes
https://ig.ft.com/chancellor-game/

[wookie70]

I was sharing an anecdote so no evidence. It wouldn’t surprise me though. If I was earning £50k down south I would be reluctant to transfer to Scotland and have to pay more. They won’t know about the lower council tax or other benefits we have. And they may not be important to them anyway. Guys working in civil engineering tend not to be thinking about uni fees or nhs waiting times yet.
Irelands low tax system certainly seems to be helping them. They are running a massive budget surplus and have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it.


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As you say they will likely know our NHS is better and we have free prescriptions, university fees, elder care etc. If I wanted cheaper council tax for the same band I could move to Westminster or Newcastle. The former is about a grand a year cheaper and the later about 50 quid cheaper. For me the amount of tax is less important than how progressive it is. I would say the same about individuals as businesses. Those at the low end of income and profit have the lowest percentage and then a gradual increase as you move up the bands. Once you get to anything over 200k a year income or profit(sole trader) I would be quite happy to see 60% tax or similar. I would also want some form of tax on above inflation earnings on profits from money or property out with the home you stay. Frankly if it collapses the private rental market and house prices crash then in teh medium and long run that is a good thing imo.

[Ozyhibby]

As you say they will likely know our NHS is better and we have free prescriptions, university fees, elder care etc. If I wanted cheaper council tax for the same band I could move to Westminster or Newcastle. The former is about a grand a year cheaper and the later about 50 quid cheaper. For me the amount of tax is less important than how progressive it is. I would say the same about individuals as businesses. Those at the low end of income and profit have the lowest percentage and then a gradual increase as you move up the bands. Once you get to anything over 200k a year income or profit(sole trader) I would be quite happy to see 60% tax or similar. I would also want some form of tax on above inflation earnings on profits from money or property out with the home you stay. Frankly if it collapses the private rental market and house prices crash then in teh medium and long run that is a good thing imo.

Yip, we don’t have enough houses so we should def drive out the providers of houses.[emoji849]


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[grunt]

If I wanted cheaper council tax for the same band I could move to Westminster or Newcastle.
Good luck buying a house in Westminster. Average house price is £984,000. Average house monthly rent is £3,100.

[Ozyhibby]

Good luck buying a house in Westminster. Average house price is £984,000. Average house monthly rent is £3,100.

Cheap council tax though.[emoji106]


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[grunt]

Cheap council tax though.[emoji106]
Apparently so! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/evolvepolitics/status/1846230820161306969?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/evolvepolitics/status/1846230820161306969?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Need to check your twitter sources, force unemployed to get jagged, load of mince. You literally said your opinion was the opposite of this clickbate post. No one will be forced it will be an option for those who say they can't work due to weight, they would be lucky as it costs 150 a month to get privately. No one would be saying the same if it was a statin tablet or diabetics being offered insulin if they couldn't work

[jamie_1875]

Need to check your twitter sources, force unemployed to get jagged, load of mince. You literally said your opinion was the opposite of this clickbate post. No one will be forced it will be an option for those who say they can't work due to weight, they would be lucky as it costs 150 a month to get privately. No one would be saying the same if it was a statin tablet or diabetics being offered insulin if they couldn't work

I did read it and think "forced" and how would they do that then? Send a team of enforcement officers to the houses of the overweight and strap them into chairs.

Plus the company that has gone into partnership with the UK Government and the drug being used is not the ones being mentioned in that tweet so wholly inaccurate.

There was a news report about a lady who was obese and was not working and on benefits, she got the drug on the NHS and is now a healthy weight and working. For some it will be welcomed and for other that don't want I then they will not be forced to take injections against their will.

[Stairway 2 7]

I did read it and think "forced" and how would they do that then? Send a team of enforcement officers to the houses of the overweight and strap them into chairs.

Plus the company that has gone into partnership with the UK Government and the drug being used is not the ones being mentioned in that tweet so wholly inaccurate.

There was a news report about a lady who was obese and was not working and on benefits, she got the drug on the NHS and is now a healthy weight and working. For some it will be welcomed and for other that don't want I then they will not be forced to take injections against their will.

After covid some people have went forced injection crazy, of course the covid vaccine wasn't compulsory anyway. The effect of this is we have rising cases of diseases in kids such as whooping cough for the first time in decades. Uptake in pregnant mums for the vaccine went from 75% to 60% since covid, the result 5 kids died last year that didn't have to. We don't force drugs into people in the UK but all are well regulated and help

[Ozyhibby]

Need to check your twitter sources, force unemployed to get jagged, load of mince. You literally said your opinion was the opposite of this clickbate post. No one will be forced it will be an option for those who say they can't work due to weight, they would be lucky as it costs 150 a month to get privately. No one would be saying the same if it was a statin tablet or diabetics being offered insulin if they couldn't work

I’m not against the use of the drug, just the thought of corruption involved in paying govt ministers to encourage its use.
I actually think it’s a great drug and once they start using it for addiction it could be a game changer.
The grubby funding of politics was my point here.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not against the use of the drug, just the thought of corruption involved in paying govt ministers to encourage its use.
I actually think it’s a great drug and once they start using it for addiction it could be a game changer.
The grubby funding of politics was my point here.


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It's a completely different company. We're going with Eli lilly the tweet says Labour took money from the CEO of Novo Norsk. Think it shows they take money from anyone and a few thousand isn't going to buy the massive contract Eli lilly could win

[cabbageandribs1875]

Politics UK on X: "🚨 NEW: Wes Streeting's partner Joe Dancey is Labour's new Executive Director of Policy and Communications https://t.co/MUnRabU8py" / X (https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1848687977788018767)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GagJRe_X0AA7mmR?format=jpg&name=large

[grunt]

Labour and the lying Tories better together in Stirling

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GavgMnyXcAAj5G2?format=jpg&name=medium

[Col2]

So labour are going to kill the employment market with this 2% hike in employer NIC.

For small businesses they will need to pass on to employees in the form of small salary increases and blocking recruitment. For larger businesses they are already freeze recruitment and new hires. Growth will be impacted.

Companies will make less profit and therefore pay less corporation tax.

As an inside IR35 contractor I will have to pay both employer and employee NIC for zero benefit and be thousands worse off per year.

But hey it’s all for the working person…

[Hibrandenburg]

So labour are going to kill the employment market with this 2% hike in employer NIC.

For small businesses they will need to pass on to employees in the form of small salary increases and blocking recruitment. For larger businesses they are already freeze recruitment and new hires. Growth will be impacted.

Companies will make less profit and therefore pay less corporation tax.

As an inside IR35 contractor I will have to pay both employer and employee NIC for zero benefit and be thousands worse off per year.

But hey it’s all for the working person…

It works in Germany. Employers have to mirror the payments made by employees on pensions, health insurance, unemployment insurance, care insurance and church tax if the employee volunteers to pay it. Employers still have to compete with each other to recruit employees so it doesn't end in a race to the bottom on wages. I've never understood the resistance in the UK to making life and public services better for the masses by favouring making employers richer to the detriment of employees.

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour instead of austerity are going down the tax route. The papers and those effected by rises will be fuming but such is life. I'm all for wealth redistribution if it actually brings in more laffer curve ect.

[Andy Bee]

Labour MP Mike Amesbury using his right to defend himself?

https://x.com/PoliticsMoments/status/1850580792239341719

[cabbageandribs1875]

British Labour Thugs

[grunt]

Labour MP Mike Amesbury using his right to defend himself?

https://x.com/PoliticsMoments/status/1850580792239341719
As befits a Labour MP, he clearly led with his left.

[Colr]

It works in Germany. Employers have to mirror the payments made by employees on pensions, health insurance, unemployment insurance, care insurance and church tax if the employee volunteers to pay it. Employers still have to compete with each other to recruit employees so it doesn't end in a race to the bottom on wages. I've never understood the resistance in the UK to making life and public services better for the masses by favouring making employers richer to the detriment of employees.

It’s a typically servile English mentality. Beggar thy neighbour and hope for crumbs of the Lord’s table.

Scotland leans more to the Scandic mentality. We need to provide stuff for all of us to lead better lives and we all need to contribute to it.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s a typically servile English mentality. Beggar thy neighbour and hope for crumbs of the Lord’s table.

Scotland leans more to the Scandic mentality. We need to provide stuff for all of us to lead better lives and we all need to contribute to it.

Exactly this. It's mental that in 2024 this countries priorities are:

1. The King
2. The aristocracy
3. The system of government
4. Political parties
5. The people

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a typically servile English mentality. Beggar thy neighbour and hope for crumbs of the Lord’s table.

Scotland leans more to the Scandic mentality. We need to provide stuff for all of us to lead better lives and we all need to contribute to it.

I don’t think we do to be honest. We don’t do big infrastructure like they do and the business environment here is not as healthy. They seem to understand more that nice things need paid for.


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[Stairway 2 7]

New minimum wage increases are 3x so a small help to some, although the telegraph is saying it'll bring down the country like they do with all rises so who knows


The new minimum wages from April 2025

Over 21s: £11.44 > £12.21 - 6.7% increase

18-20: £8.60 > £10.00 - 16.3% increase

Under 18s & apprenctices: £6.40 > £7.55 - 18% increase

[lapsedhibee]

New minimum wage increases are 3x so a small help to some, although the telegraph is saying it'll bring down the country like they do with all rises so who knows


The new minimum wages from April 2025

Over 21s: £11.44 > £12.21 - 6.7% increase

18-20: £8.60 > £10.00 - 16.3% increase

Under 18s & apprenctices: £6.40 > £7.55 - 18% increase

An 18% increase on not very much is still not very much.
Telegraph is a worthless rag.

[Stairway 2 7]

An 18% increase on not very much is still not very much.
Telegraph is a worthless rag.

£6.40 > £7.55 is a decent jump for under 18s I think. Labour saying tonight they will do away with the different levels for over 18s by the end of the parliament which is good.

Real living wage which is voluntary going up to £12.60 in April too I just read

[Stairway 2 7]

Seems Labour or the police have made an arse out of pushing that the Southport attacker didn't have any terror links to calm the riots. He's been charged with terrorism charges having ricen and having Al Qaeda training manuals. Sure fire way to stoke up the nutters this

[cabbageandribs1875]

How private health has invested in Wes Streeting - Good Law Project (https://goodlawproject.org/how-private-health-has-invested-in-wes-streeting/?fbclid=IwY2xjawGOa4dleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHfxKmitdd0hu 30ueU2Ifeu658B4NVHCiqUtXLOW1Uepaxoa3lo5T6oOq7w_aem _q6e9W9J27nzLlVXE0jLLeQ)

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/464282588_8657578177632270_6446767142375905658_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=vKRfl-53dl8Q7kNvgFhS5qQ&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&_nc_gid=AVd4h_Y7OpQyvL4zu6S7dYn&oh=00_AYDgu1ZtCPS9SFMWm6RIRF0YK13Y9AH6NnYN331o4KTP tw&oe=67275133

[jamie_1875]

Scotland to get an extra £3.4BN.

Rachel Reeves: "This Budget provides the devolved governments with the largest real-terms funding settlement since devolution"

Seems like a good day for Labour and Scotland.

Update:

The Fraser of Allander Institute has described the increased cash for the Scottish Government as "a really significant uplift".

The SNP's job of balancing its budget is now "significantly easier".

[Scouse Hibee]

Awful budget for small businesses, some tough decisions to be made.

[Ozyhibby]

Awful budget for small businesses, some tough decisions to be made.

It’s def not a budget for growth. Will be a significant help for the SNP now though.


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[Smartie]

It’s a ghastly budget for me but tbh it wasn't ever going to be anything other than that.

[Billy Whizz]

Awful budget for small businesses, some tough decisions to be made.

SH, I don’t know how many people you employ, but is it the min wage and NI increases you’re referring too?

[Scouse Hibee]

SH, I don’t know how many people you employ, but is it the min wage and NI increases you’re referring too?

Yeah it is, we have 8 employees on the books.

[Paul1642]

It’s easy for me to say because as far as I can see not a single one of the tax increases will directly affect me, but I feel like it was a decent budget.

We absolutely couldn’t return to austerity, the public sector has nothing left to cut that wouldn’t cripple it. Therefore to raise £40 billion of taxes without a salaried person earning thereabouts the UKs average salary paying a penny more in tax, it seems okay. £3.4 billion extra for Scotland is big IMO.

The money has come from somewhere and I feel for the most part it’s being found from places with a little slack to give. I accept small businesses owners will feel differently.

As for the ones complaining about the increase to minimum wage, no sympathy whatsoever on that front.

[Paul1642]

Yeah it is, we have 8 employees on the books.

If you don’t mind me asking, how much is the change going to cost your business a year?

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm still trying to figure out the implications for small to medium enterprises.

I'm a sole trader and nothing will affect me but the ni and minimum wage must affect a lot of small businesses.

[wookie70]

It’s easy for me to say because as far as I can see not a single one of the tax increases will directly affect me, but I feel like it was a decent budget.

We absolutely couldn’t return to austerity, the public sector has nothing left to cut that wouldn’t cripple it. Therefore to raise £40 billion of taxes without a salaried person earning thereabouts the UKs average salary paying a penny more in tax, it seems okay. £3.4 billion extra for Scotland is big IMO.

The money has come from somewhere and I feel for the most part it’s being found from places with a little slack to give. I accept small businesses owners will feel differently.

As for the ones complaining about the increase to minimum wage, no sympathy whatsoever on that front.

That would be my thoughts too. They had to turn the tide and at least most PAYE average earners won't feel the pinch. Hopefully they can get some growth and start investing in Public Services and infrastructure. Politically getting the tough budget in early is a decent move

[lapsedhibee]

I dozed off a few times listening to Reeves, and eventually switched off altogether because of all the animal noises coming from Labour (what a farce that parliament is, compared with the devolved versions). But at least the speech didn't seem to be punctuated, like the last 738269 budgets have been, with tedious boasting about cutting this tax and that tax.

[Colr]

I'm still trying to figure out the implications for small to medium enterprises.

I'm a sole trader and nothing will affect me but the ni and minimum wage must affect a lot of small businesses.

I thought the whining and shroud waving about the NI increase from small businesses interviewed was a bit exaggerated. Reminded me of the fuss they made when the minimum wage was introduced.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It’s easy for me to say because as far as I can see not a single one of the tax increases will directly affect me, but I feel like it was a decent budget.

We absolutely couldn’t return to austerity, the public sector has nothing left to cut that wouldn’t cripple it. Therefore to raise £40 billion of taxes without a salaried person earning thereabouts the UKs average salary paying a penny more in tax, it seems okay. £3.4 billion extra for Scotland is big IMO.

The money has come from somewhere and I feel for the most part it’s being found from places with a little slack to give. I accept small businesses owners will feel differently.

As for the ones complaining about the increase to minimum wage, no sympathy whatsoever on that front.

Workers are paying more in tax each and every year through fiscal drag due to tax thresholds being frozen. This is raising billions for the treasury.

[Ozyhibby]

Workers are paying more in tax each and every year through fiscal drag due to tax thresholds being frozen. This is raising billions for the treasury.

It’s not true anyway. NI has gone up. That is ultimately a tax on employment. If you are employed then you are ultimately paying it.


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[Paul1642]

Workers are paying more in tax each and every year through fiscal drag due to tax thresholds being frozen. This is raising billions for the treasury.

This is obviously true however that was from previous budgets and was already set to frozen in place until 2028. This budget has agreed not to extend that freeze.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm still trying to figure out the implications for small to medium enterprises.

I'm a sole trader and nothing will affect me but the ni and minimum wage must affect a lot of small businesses.

Class 4 NIC has reduced from 9% to 6%.

[Hibs4185]

I actually quite liked the budget yesterday and wasn’t nearly as bad as feared.

However, with her new ‘growth’ budget, growth is actually been forecast to be lower over the next 5 years.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/north/councillors-disappointed-as-5m-perth-levelling-up-funding-withdrawn-by-uk-government-in-autumn-budget


Can I just say, **** you Labour!!!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

&&&&&&g disgusting Blaydon and Consett MP Liz Twist resigns from Age UK role after voting to cut winter fuel payments | ITV News Tyne Tees (https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2024-10-30/mp-who-voted-to-cut-winter-fuel-payment-quits-pensioner-charity-role?fbclid=IwY2xjawGQmiVleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHaZRbo0V EdjKuZK6Wlp1FspFkVEWawxZ9uUGKBA2tLA0JrEf0q8Erw39cA _aem_56GFLtm7AHbXW4ShHGGnGA)

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not sure if Swinney and Sunak have come out and said fair play we said for months there would be austerity when actually it was the opposite, Shona Robertson said Labour’s budget was a step in the right direction. A massive increase in Scotlands budget is a bonus. £22 billion extra to the NHS is bigger than anyone expected. Funded mostly by this who can afford it more, capital gains, oil and gas windfall tax increase. Happy with the decent jump in the minimum wage. There is always going to be winners and losers but I'd prefer it to mainly come from those who can afford it most

[grunt]

I'm not sure if Swinney and Sunak have come out and said fair play we said for months there would be austerity when actually it was the opposite, Shona Robertson said Labour’s budget was a step in the right direction. A massive increase in Scotlands budget is a bonus. £22 billion extra to the NHS is bigger than anyone expected. Funded mostly by this who can afford it more, capital gains, oil and gas windfall tax increase. Happy with the decent jump in the minimum wage. There is always going to be winners and losers but I'd prefer it to mainly come from those who can afford it most
Of the much lauded £40bn tax increases, more than half 26bn comes from the increase in Employers' NI. What do you think employers will do to find this additional tax burden? Will they take the hit in profits? Or will they reduce future pay increases, employ less staff, pass the burden onto consumers? So when you say this tax increase is mostly funded by those who can afford it, were you talking about present and future employees, and consumers? And for employers in the public sector, they will need to find this additional spend by cutting elsewhere. So some of your £22bn extra to the NHS will go to fund the tax increase.

[Stairway 2 7]

Of the much lauded £40bn tax increases, more than half 26bn comes from the increase in Employers' NI. What do you think employers will do to find this additional tax burden? Will they take the hit in profits? Or will they reduce future pay increases, employ less staff, pass the burden onto consumers? So when you say this tax increase is mostly funded by those who can afford it, were you talking about present and future employees, and consumers? And for employers in the public sector, they will need to find this additional spend by cutting elsewhere. So some of your £22bn extra to the NHS will go to fund the tax increase.

It's funded for the public sector so they won't. Your first part could be lifted from the Telegraph every single time there is a NI or tax increase on businesses and also every time the minimum wage rises. It's simply mince NI rises and minimum wage rises are mostly taken from company profits. Economy of choice keeps prices down so only a small percentage is passed on. The unemployment levels are projected to drop so the fear of jobs going is unfounded, just like every other time it's said

I'm left wing and I like the massive increase to the NHS and plugging the funding gap. There is only two ways of getting this austerity, tax on the public or businesses. Labour has chosen tax on businesses and highest 5% of earners. Where would you have got the billions

[Col2]

Why do you like the extra funding for the NHS? It employs 1.8m people in the uk and is the 6th biggest employer in the world yet its the most inefficient cash cow in the history of this country.

It needs to be modernized like every penny counts not more money thrown at it like some kind of reward. Almost Every experience from family or friends in recent years has highlighted total shambolic organization, staff standing about, terrible admin and zero tech.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why do you like the extra funding for the NHS? It employs 1.8m people in the uk and is the 6th biggest employer in the world yet its the most inefficient cash cow in the history of this country.

It needs to be modernized like every penny counts not more money thrown at it like some kind of reward. Almost Every experience from family or friends in recent years has highlighted total shambolic organization, staff standing about, terrible admin and zero tech.

Why don't we just make cuts then that will sort things. Of course it's inefficient with poor tech but surely no one thinks less funding will help that. The increase in budget still won't catch us up with our western European neighbours spending on health but it will get us closer. The bit about staff just standing about is just rubbish

[Smartie]

It's funded for the public sector so they won't. Your first part could be lifted from the Telegraph every single time there is a NI or tax increase on businesses and also every time the minimum wage rises. It's simply mince NI rises and minimum wage rises are mostly taken from company profits. Economy of choice keeps prices down so only a small percentage is passed on. The unemployment levels are projected to drop so the fear of jobs going is unfounded, just like every other time it's said

I'm left wing and I like the massive increase to the NHS and plugging the funding gap. There is only two ways of getting this austerity, tax on the public or businesses. Labour has chosen tax on businesses and highest 5% of earners. Where would you have got the billions

Problem is - it’s not every business that makes colossal profits and is rolling in cash. Margins can be tight.

On a personal basis - we’ve got planned wage rises and had planned to employ someone else next month. I’m going to have to run the numbers to figure out whether we can still afford to do so. That’s before you get onto the concept of “consumer confidence” and whether or not the appetite for our services will remain going forward.

Fortunately (for you, presumably) the capital gains tax situation is going to affect the value of the business I’ve knocked my pan in for the past 15 years to grow, as well as any profit when selling it, so going “f*** it” and flogging it isn’t really an option.

So we graft on.

[CropleyWasGod]

Problem is - it’s not every business that makes colossal profits and is rolling in cash. Margins can be tight.

On a personal basis - we’ve got planned wage rises and had planned to employ someone else next month. I’m going to have to run the numbers to figure out whether we can still afford to do so. That’s before you get onto the concept of “consumer confidence” and whether or not the appetite for our services will remain going forward.

Fortunately (for you, presumably) the capital gains tax situation is going to affect the value of the business I’ve knocked my pan in for the past 15 years to grow, as well as any profit when selling it, so going “f*** it” and flogging it isn’t really an option.

So we graft on.

How will the increase in Employer's Allowance affect you?

(I think I know the answer, but I'd like a second opinion)

[Smartie]

How will the increase in Employer's Allowance affect you?

(I think I know the answer, but I'd like a second opinion)

I'll tell you in an hour, as I'm on a webinar with a business coach, discussing the impact of the budget and what we need to do to mitigate the changes.

Prediction 1 - we're going to be advised to put our prices up. We shouldn't absorb it, we shouldn't sack anyone, we shouldn't pass on any effect of the tax and we shouldn't change our growth plans and shouldn't put off employing anyone if we need to employ someone...

Prediction 2 - subsequent rise in inflation again further down the line...

[Stairway 2 7]

Problem is - it’s not every business that makes colossal profits and is rolling in cash. Margins can be tight.

On a personal basis - we’ve got planned wage rises and had planned to employ someone else next month. I’m going to have to run the numbers to figure out whether we can still afford to do so. That’s before you get onto the concept of “consumer confidence” and whether or not the appetite for our services will remain going forward.

Fortunately (for you, presumably) the capital gains tax situation is going to affect the value of the business I’ve knocked my pan in for the past 15 years to grow, as well as any profit when selling it, so going “f*** it” and flogging it isn’t really an option.

So we graft on.

It's about choices though the money needs to come from somewhere. The tories chose taxing across the board rather than the top and austerity. I'd rather pay more tax for better services like Scandinavia. I pay more tax than someone in England on my wage and due to this budget my wife will pay quite a bit more as an employer. I'm happy with both as long as they money goes to the NHS and a good minimum wage rise

[CropleyWasGod]

It's funded for the public sector so they won't. Your first part could be lifted from the Telegraph every single time there is a NI or tax increase on businesses and also every time the minimum wage rises. It's simply mince NI rises and minimum wage rises are mostly taken from company profits. Economy of choice keeps prices down so only a small percentage is passed on. The unemployment levels are projected to drop so the fear of jobs going is unfounded, just like every other time it's said

I'm left wing and I like the massive increase to the NHS and plugging the funding gap. There is only two ways of getting this austerity, tax on the public or businesses. Labour has chosen tax on businesses and highest 5% of earners. Where would you have got the billions

I'm a bit confused by this.

If these costs aren't coming out of profits, where are they coming from? If profits aren't affected, that means prices have to rise.

Or have I misunderstood you?

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm a bit confused by this.

If these costs aren't coming out of profits, where are they coming from? If profits aren't affected, that means prices have to rise.

Or have I misunderstood you?
Sorry meant a "," after mince. Yes company profits will be effected of course.

OBR are saying inflation will drop constantly to the 2% target the next 5 years. They are expecting a slower rise in wages but still a constant rise and a better rate than the last 5 years.

It was never going to be a good budget as the funding gap was huge, NHS toiling and public sector wage rises huge

[grunt]

I'm not sure if Swinney and Sunak have come out and said fair play we said for months there would be austerity when actually it was the opposite, Shona Robertson said Labour’s budget was a step in the right direction. A massive increase in Scotlands budget is a bonus. £22 billion extra to the NHS is bigger than anyone expected. Funded mostly by this who can afford it more, capital gains, oil and gas windfall tax increase. Happy with the decent jump in the minimum wage. There is always going to be winners and losers but I'd prefer it to mainly come from those who can afford it most
A bonus? Really? Less than it was in 2020?

https://x.com/theSNP/status/1851950602802069789

[grunt]

It's funded for the public sector so they won't.
There seems to be some debate about this. Ian Murray says it is; Rachel Reeves says it isn't.

[grunt]

It's about choices though the money needs to come from somewhere.You're absolutely right. And Starmer has made the choice to continue with the lying Tories' harmful Brexit which is estimated to be costing the UK £40bn a year. Coincidentally, the same amount that Reeves has "chosen" to take in the form of tax hikes.

[Smartie]

How will the increase in Employer's Allowance affect you?

(I think I know the answer, but I'd like a second opinion)

The increase in Employer's Allowance wasn't mentioned and my question in the chat on this wasn't answered, so I don't really know. All that was discussed were the impacts of the totals of the various changes. On the call were a business coach, specialist accountants in my field and a few hundred attendees (business coach doing a free webinar, drumming up interest in the services of both himself and said accountants) so I expect it will have been taken into account and not been an oversight. If you like though, I could ask a further question as I do use the business coach's services?

The scary bit was the impact of the increase in employer's NI when combined with a pay increase across the board relative to what the increase in living wage represents. Surprise surprise the advice was to increase prices but to constantly keep an eye on the quality of the offering and keep up the marketing... but to mitigate this, prices are going to need to go up by about 15%.

The only other bit relevant to me was the capital gains tax thing... and as it happens, this isn't as bad as it might have been. It'll affect exit planning slightly but as I'm 47, accepting I've got a good bit of this race left to run it won't really affect my thinking in any way. The small increase is unlikely to see a stampede of people looking to beat the rush and as I'm not likely to end up having it applied to more than £1m then the 10% to 18% rise isn't all that large in the grand scheme of things.

Long story short - back to work, run the numbers for Q4 of this financial year and get ready for next financial year with price increases priced in. If anybody else is getting similar advice to me, we can expect stuff to be getting expensive again next year, although we're coming from a position where inflation has been looking a bit better.

Just need Trump to get in and start his trade war with tariffs all over the place now...

[Stairway 2 7]

A bonus? Really? Less than it was in 2020?

https://x.com/theSNP/status/1851950602802069789

So the tories cut the Scottish grant through cuts by £6.4 billion over 3 years. Labour inherited that and created tax rises so that the block grant is £3.4 billion up a few months in power and it's bad?.

[Stairway 2 7]

There seems to be some debate about this. Ian Murray says it is; Rachel Reeves says it isn't.

She doesn't. NHS, councils, schools have all been told their grants will go above inflation and cover the NI increase plus extra

[CropleyWasGod]

The increase in Employer's Allowance wasn't mentioned and my question in the chat on this wasn't answered, so I don't really know. All that was discussed were the impacts of the totals of the various changes. On the call were a business coach, specialist accountants in my field and a few hundred attendees (business coach doing a free webinar, drumming up interest in the services of both himself and said accountants) so I expect it will have been taken into account and not been an oversight. If you like though, I could ask a further question as I do use the business coach's services?

The scary bit was the impact of the increase in employer's NI when combined with a pay increase across the board relative to what the increase in living wage represents. Surprise surprise the advice was to increase prices but to constantly keep an eye on the quality of the offering and keep up the marketing... but to mitigate this, prices are going to need to go up by about 15%.

The only other bit relevant to me was the capital gains tax thing... and as it happens, this isn't as bad as it might have been. It'll affect exit planning slightly but as I'm 47, accepting I've got a good bit of this race left to run it won't really affect my thinking in any way. The small increase is unlikely to see a stampede of people looking to beat the rush and as I'm not likely to end up having it applied to more than £1m then the 10% to 18% rise isn't all that large in the grand scheme of things.

Long story short - back to work, run the numbers for Q4 of this financial year and get ready for next financial year with price increases priced in. If anybody else is getting similar advice to me, we can expect stuff to be getting expensive again next year, although we're coming from a position where inflation has been looking a bit better.

Just need Trump to get in and start his trade war with tariffs all over the place now...

Cheers.

My own thoughts on the Employer's Allowance is that it will be of minimal benefit to small businesses.

If there is any comfort, it is that increased NI, with no price rises, means less tax to pay. Not a whole hell of a lot, but .......

[Col2]

Markets are now spooked. Sky News saying this could get serious.

I thought Starmer and Reeves base promise was not to play with the public finances like that absolute clown Truss did…. It was literally what they campaigned on. 😡

[Stairway 2 7]

Markets are now spooked. Sky News saying this could get serious.

I thought Starmer and Reeves base promise was not to play with the public finances like that absolute clown Truss did…. It was literally what they campaigned on. 😡

So we're not allowed tax cuts or tax rises just keep stuff the same and centrist because the markets tell our government to. We can end austerity and borrow if we want to. The markets are still estimating growth every year in the next 5 and wages to be above inflation in that time, we'll be fine. The upshot is above inflation rises to all our councils, NHS and education sector

[jamie_1875]

A bonus? Really? Less than it was in 2020?

https://x.com/theSNP/status/1851950602802069789

Wasn't that because we had Covid in 2020 so there was significantly more funding? It's 10% higher than pre COVID level.

What changes would you have made as it seems like everything everyone does is wrong?

[Col2]

So we're not allowed tax cuts or tax rises just keep stuff the same and centrist because the markets tell our government to. We can end austerity and borrow if we want to. The markets are still estimating growth every year in the next 5 and wages to be above inflation in that time, we'll be fine. The upshot is above inflation rises to all our councils, NHS and education sector

Just stating the reaction. Reeves has spent 3 months every day talking about the £22bn black hole and then raising taxes by over £40bn which was a surprise to the market who have also seen slightly downgraded growth predictions which were already low.

[Ozyhibby]

So we're not allowed tax cuts or tax rises just keep stuff the same and centrist because the markets tell our government to. We can end austerity and borrow if we want to. The markets are still estimating growth every year in the next 5 and wages to be above inflation in that time, we'll be fine. The upshot is above inflation rises to all our councils, NHS and education sector

You can ignore the markets if you want but only if you don’t need to borrow money. If you want to borrow money then you have to pay very close attention.
She has also increased borrowing. This budget could go either way right now. If we get growth then all good but if we don’t then it will be judged harshly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

You can ignore the markets if you want but only if you don’t need to borrow money. If you want to borrow money then you have to pay very close attention.
She has also increased borrowing. This budget could go either way right now. If we get growth then all good but if we don’t then it will be judged harshly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OBR expecting near 2% per year over the next 5 years, they are also expecting the bank of England interest rate to drop by 1% in the next 12 months. The growth is only a tiny fraction of a % point down than if they didn't increase the public sector budgets, I'll take that for a huge increase to the NHS and councils

[Stairway 2 7]

Wasn't that because we had Covid in 2020 so there was significantly more funding? It's 10% higher than pre COVID level.

What changes would you have made as it seems like everything everyone does is wrong?

Didn't realise that, very disingenuous of the SNP then

[Smartie]

OBR expecting near 2% per year over the next 5 years, they are also expecting the bank of England interest rate to drop by 1% in the next 12 months. The growth is only a tiny fraction of a % point down than if they didn't increase the public sector budgets, I'll take that for a huge increase to the NHS and councils

Do those forecasts not depend on the government of the day not ripping up the rule book and making large, fundamental changes in direction though?

[Stairway 2 7]

Do those forecasts not depend on the government of the day not ripping up the rule book and making large, fundamental changes in direction though?

No they are the updated figures post budget. We are excited to have grown every year, BOE interest rate to drop by 1% in the next 12 months, inflation to drop each year, wages to outstrip inflation in each of the next 5 years.

Yes some of it is slower than before budget but the public sector had massive funding holes, 14 years of austerity and desperately needed the above inflation rises in my opinion.

It's pretty much the exact opposite of what the tories would have done

[Stairway 2 7]

I've checked and these are actual quotes 😆


@robertshrimsley
"This was the worst Budget I have ever heard a British Chancellor deliver, by an enormous margin." - Allister Heath today.

"This was the best Budget I have ever heard a British Chancellor deliver, by a massive margin." Allister Heath on Kwarteng budget

[JimBHibees]

There seems to be some debate about this. Ian Murray says it is; Rachel Reeves says it isn't.

Think i will believe Reeves

[Stairway 2 7]

Think i will believe Reeves

She didn't say it, so your not really believing her tbf

[JimBHibees]

She didn't say it, so your not really believing her tbf

Ok i choose not to believe Murray

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/464579382_8685787994811288_7279998149150535637_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=05F4z2si0aUQ7kNvgGSY7Gd&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=Al5DgnlBYgAXUbNIj8LO4J2&oh=00_AYDwcBZnYl6Dw9ivYwWMFxa0pcKRcEEzq0FXpJdVt9xL pw&oe=6729C5E5

[Bishop Hibee]

Well done Labour for sticking to their guns on the introduction of VAT for private school fees. Private schools should be scrapped altogether in my opinion. Biggest driver of inequality in the U.K.

[Smartie]

No they are the updated figures post budget. We are excited to have grown every year, BOE interest rate to drop by 1% in the next 12 months, inflation to drop each year, wages to outstrip inflation in each of the next 5 years.

Yes some of it is slower than before budget but the public sector had massive funding holes, 14 years of austerity and desperately needed the above inflation rises in my opinion.

It's pretty much the exact opposite of what the tories would have done

Funnily enough, after having had a moan about how the budget negatively affects me, I’m not against the concept of it per se.

If the proposed budget brings about growth, increases appetite for my business that more than outweighs the NI change then all good, yeah?

I just “hae ma doots” that it’s going to do anything of the sort, probably the opposite.

[Moulin Yarns]

OBR expecting near 2% per year over the next 5 years, they are also expecting the bank of England interest rate to drop by 1% in the next 12 months. The growth is only a tiny fraction of a % point down than if they didn't increase the public sector budgets, I'll take that for a huge increase to the NHS and councils

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/oct/30/obr-budget-economic-growth-rachel-reeves-economy

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/oct/30/obr-budget-economic-growth-rachel-reeves-economy

I don't know what your trying to say as you've just shared an article without comment?

Is it the growth level 2.0, 1.8 then 1.5 in the next 3. You'd think the budget was putting us into recession three way the tories are framing it.

Although one caveat is the OBR are consistently awful with their UK estimates they always underestimate and have revised up in each of the last 5 years or something. In March the estimated the economy would grow 0.8% this year just 7 months later they estimate 1.1% this year the fastest in the g7 bar America. Growth doubling next year whilst still having above inflation rises for public sector can't be that bad

[Andy Bee]

You've literally cherrypicked the best three years which aren't exactly earth shattering growth figures and the 1.5% you mention is outdone by the 1.9% when nothing at all is done, the facts are according to the OBR that doing nothing would've resulted in higher growth. If you're basing your argument on growth then you're on a hiding to nothing. The elephant in the room here is still Brexit without any shadow of a doubt.

[Stairway 2 7]

You've literally cherrypicked the best three years which aren't exactly earth shattering growth figures and the 1.5% you mention is outdone by the 1.9% when nothing at all is done, the facts are according to the OBR that doing nothing would've resulted in higher growth. If you're basing your argument on growth then you're on a hiding to nothing. The elephant in the room here is still Brexit without any shadow of a doubt.

Cherry picking this year and literally the next 3 years after it, no bother 😆. They say it won't go bellow 1.5 and then start moving up in 2028, so I've cherry picked the worst growth point we have. Doesn't really make sense.

I'm doing the opposite of basing my argument on growth that's what the tories are doing. I'm saying the OBR said it would be higher if we did nothing. Nothing is £40 billion in cuts to services, no £24 billion raise to the NHS, no £3.6 billion to Scotland, £1 billion for doctors wage rise, above inflation rise to the struggling councils ect.

We had 0.1% growth 2 years ago and 1.1% this year estimated. Yet the Telegraph is saying between 2% and 1.5% will be horrid, where were they the last few years

[Ozyhibby]

Cherry picking this year and literally the next 3 years after it, no bother [emoji38]. They say it won't go bellow 1.5 and then start moving up in 2028, so I've cherry picked the worst growth point we have. Doesn't really make sense.

I'm doing the opposite of basing my argument on growth that's what the tories are doing. I'm saying the OBR said it would be higher if we did nothing. Nothing is £40 billion in cuts to services, no £24 billion raise to the NHS, no £3.6 billion to Scotland, £1 billion for doctors wage rise, above inflation rise to the struggling councils ect.

We had 0.1% growth 2 years ago and 1.1% this year estimated. Yet the Telegraph is saying between 2% and 1.5% will be horrid, where were they the last few years

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1852016686548840657?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

It’s possible this budget ends up costing everyone a lot more in higher mortgage payments if there is not a recovery in bond market soon.
So if it lowers growth, lowers wage increases, results in less job creation and puts up mortgages, can it really be called a success?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Just watching the news makes my blood boil at the moment. I'm all for journalists getting stuck in about politicians in interviews, but where were they the past 14 years? No wonder we constantly get lumbered with Tory governments time after time when all our institutions including the press, probably shared a classroom with them.

[lapsedhibee]

Just watching the news makes my blood boil at the moment. I'm all for journalists getting stuck in about politicians in interviews, but where were they the past 14 years? No wonder we constantly get lumbered with Tory governments time after time when all our institutions including the press, probably shared a classroom with them.

Haven't noticed anyone worth listening to on any aspect of the budget except Paul Johnson. The gotcha 'journalists' - which is just about all of them - are beyond childish. Why do they get paid hundreds of thousands a year for that? :confused:

[Kato]

Just watching the news makes my blood boil at the moment. I'm all for journalists getting stuck in about politicians in interviews, but where were they the past 14 years? No wonder we constantly get lumbered with Tory governments time after time when all our institutions including the press, probably shared a classroom with them.They took Labour to task far more harshly about perks that were within the rules than they did the Tories for perks which were outwith the rules. Millionaire journalists and editors won't take kindly to a Labour govt.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1852016686548840657?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

It’s possible this budget ends up costing everyone a lot more in higher mortgage payments if there is not a recovery in bond market soon.
So if it lowers growth, lowers wage increases, results in less job creation and puts up mortgages, can it really be called a success?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It won't continue, it wouldn't have continued under Truss either. The Pounds already recovered a third of yesterday's drop today and the ftse is back above where it was pre budget. We as a nation voted in Labour we shouldn't be dictated to by the market traders.

Of course it can be called a success. Our public services has had 14 years of austerity and Labour reversed that and raised it above inflation. She took the money mostly from the top 5% and businesses. Wages will still rise above inflation, interest rates will still fall and we will still have growth. What would you do leave the funding gaps in services, lower minimum wage and public sector wages,just because the markets want more growth, Id thought you were left wing

The OBR also said today they will probably have to revise in the future because the forecast doesn't take in the results of the planning reform change that is expected to push growth up

[Stairway 2 7]

Just watching the news makes my blood boil at the moment. I'm all for journalists getting stuck in about politicians in interviews, but where were they the past 14 years? No wonder we constantly get lumbered with Tory governments time after time when all our institutions including the press, probably shared a classroom with them.

Sebastian Payne left journalism last year to become a tory MP he failed in getting selected so announced yesterday he'll be going to be chief writer at the Times in December, I'd thought they were meant to be a neutral paper. He wrote for the I paper today that it's inevitable Reeves will be after more taxes in the next budget, I hope so

[grunt]

Of course it can be called a success. Our public services has had 14 years of austerity and Labour reversed that and raised it above inflation. She took the money mostly from the top 5% and businesses. Wages will still rise above inflation, interest rates will still fall and we will still have growth.
So much winning.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbQb539akAAg_bm?format=jpg&name=medium

[Moulin Yarns]

So much winning.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbQb539akAAg_bm?format=jpg&name=medium

Added to this, https://ifs.org.uk/data-items/impact-reforms-annual-disposable-household-income-2024-25-2029-30

On top of inherited plans, personal tax and benefit measures will on average reduce incomes by £1,400 over this parliament.

Growth is good?!

[Stairway 2 7]

So much winning.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbQb539akAAg_bm?format=jpg&name=medium

Your being selective is household income growth the only measure. Alot of that decrease will be bore in the top 5% from wealth redistribution.

You've not answered the few posters that have asked you what you would have chose. Would it be keep the massive cuts to the public services that was inherited? Stop the large public sector increases labour agreed? Stop the huge increase in the NHS? Stop the above inflation minimum wage rise? What are you choosing austerity, borrowing, tax rises?

[Stairway 2 7]

Added to this, https://ifs.org.uk/data-items/impact-reforms-annual-disposable-household-income-2024-25-2029-30

On top of inherited plans, personal tax and benefit measures will on average reduce incomes by £1,400 over this parliament.

Growth is good?!

It's the opposite of purely growth driven austerity. Look at the graph you posted our services councils and NHS oh and Scot will get above inflation rises and it will come mostly from the top earners.

I think some would prefer a right rather than left wing budget. You've accused Labour of being to similar to the tories then say they are wrong when they go the opposite way from the tories and end austerity. This is what people voted for when they want Labour, don't believe the press

[Moulin Yarns]

It's the opposite of purely growth driven austerity. Look at the graph you posted our services councils and NHS oh and Scot will get above inflation rises and it will come mostly from the top earners.

I think some would prefer a right rather than left wing budget. You've accused Labour of being to similar to the tories then say they are wrong when they go the opposite way from the tories and end austerity. This is what people voted for when they want Labour, don't believe the press

I'll happily believe the IFS thanks.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'll happily believe the IFS thanks.

Believe what? Your not saying an opinion. What would you have chosen? Austerity, non wealth redistribution?

I didn't say they are lying read my post. It's ending Austerity and taking it mostly from higher earners. A left wing budget, your entitled to disagree with that policy

[Andy Bee]

Believe what? Your not saying an opinion. What would you have chosen? Austerity, non wealth redistribution?

I didn't say they are lying read my post. It's ending Austerity and taking it mostly from higher earners. A left wing budget, your entitled to disagree with that policy

Where are you getting that it's mostly higher earners funding this?

[Stairway 2 7]

Where are you getting that it's mostly higher earners funding this?

The graph in his link it's massively weighted to the highest earners. That's not a secret its obvious all will pay for the betterservices but windfall tax on gas companies, private schools vat, inheritance tax rise, capital gains tax rises, all are from the top 5%

[Moulin Yarns]

Believe what? Your not saying an opinion. What would you have chosen? Austerity, non wealth redistribution?

I didn't say they are lying read my post. It's ending Austerity and taking it mostly from higher earners. A left wing budget, your entitled to disagree with that policy

£1400 less average household by the end of this parliament?

[Andy Bee]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's £70bn extra spending from a mixture of tax rises and borrowing. As you say VAT on private schools, CGT rises, IHT, approx £24bn by the end of 2027 from the windfall tax which remains to be seen, £25bn is supposedly coming from the employers NICs and £40bn is being borrowed. That doesn't add up to higher earners funding it, it suggests the NICs are the biggest contributor by far after borrowing?

[grunt]

You've not answered the few posters that have asked you what you would have chose. Would it be keep the massive cuts to the public services that was inherited? Stop the large public sector increases labour agreed? Stop the huge increase in the NHS? Stop the above inflation minimum wage rise? What are you choosing austerity, borrowing, tax rises?


Rejoin CU
Rejoin SM
Ultimately full rejoin, Euro & Schengen if necessary
In the meantime, supertax on Gas & Oil excess profits, excess banking profits
Tax the rich - aggressive taxes on those with assets > £50m and those with income >£500k, tapered progressive taxes on those with assets £25m to £50m and income £250k to £500k
Big team of forensic accountants on recovering Covid & PPE fraud money
Jail time for key brexiters (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc)
No more oil & gas licences, aggressive climate change policies (net zero and then some)
Close down the House of Lords, make Westminster into a museum, run a modern 21st century parliament from an office block somewhere (not London) with online voting and online debates.
Oh yes, independence for Scotland
TBC


Off the top of my head.

[Stairway 2 7]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's £70bn extra spending from a mixture of tax rises and borrowing. As you say VAT on private schools, CGT rises, IHT, approx £24bn by the end of 2027 from the windfall tax which remains to be seen, £25bn is supposedly coming from the employers NICs and £40bn is being borrowed. That doesn't add up to higher earners funding it, it suggests the NICs are the biggest contributor by far after borrowing?

Look at the graph he shared? Less than 100 coming from the poorest households over 1000 from the richest. IFS could be wrong though. I think they will be close so the first £24 billion is obviously from the top 5% and they are saying the rest will be burdened on the most wealthy. It's clearly a left wing budget and I understand people don't need to agree with it. I personally hate austerity so I'm surprised by how left wing it is, especially with this centre right government

[Stairway 2 7]

Rejoin CU
Rejoin SM
Ultimately full rejoin, Euro & Schengen if necessary
In the meantime, supertax on Gas & Oil excess profits, excess banking profits
Tax the rich - aggressive taxes on those with assets > £50m and those with income >£500k, tapered progressive taxes on those with assets £25m to £50m and income £250k to £500k
Big team of forensic accountants on recovering Covid & PPE fraud money
Jail time for key brexiters (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc)
No more oil & gas licences, aggressive climate change policies (net zero and then some)
Close down the House of Lords, make Westminster into a museum, run a modern 21st century parliament from an office block somewhere (not London) with online voting and online debates.
Oh yes, independence for Scotland
TBC


Off the top of my head.

A lot of them aren't legal to put through this budget. We can't just rejoin the EU even if we wanted to instantly, I'd bet good money Labour wouldn't win if they proposed it the next election. They have already put the windfall tax on gas firms, Stephen Flynn was against that disappointingly, jail time ect isn't serous, aggressive taxation would affect growth what you've been arguing against all day, the Lords ect doesn't affect the deficit.

You've not said how she could have legally created a budget this week. I think your saying no austerity tax rises but also growth which is counter to that

[Smartie]

Rejoin CU
Rejoin SM
Ultimately full rejoin, Euro & Schengen if necessary
In the meantime, supertax on Gas & Oil excess profits, excess banking profits
Tax the rich - aggressive taxes on those with assets > £50m and those with income >£500k, tapered progressive taxes on those with assets £25m to £50m and income £250k to £500k
Big team of forensic accountants on recovering Covid & PPE fraud money
Jail time for key brexiters (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc)
No more oil & gas licences, aggressive climate change policies (net zero and then some)
Close down the House of Lords, make Westminster into a museum, run a modern 21st century parliament from an office block somewhere (not London) with online voting and online debates.
Oh yes, independence for Scotland
TBC


Off the top of my head.

Sign me up.

[grunt]

You've not said how she could have legally created a budget this week. I think your saying no austerity tax rises but also growth which is counter to that
I'm plainly not Chancellor material. Sorry to disappoint.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm plainly not Chancellor material. Sorry to disappoint.

We all aren't but we still try and have uninformed opinions on the matter. Thankfully it's very respectful and not like some on the main board. I'd not vote for any party that would have me as a member, Grouchoish

[Moulin Yarns]

We all aren't but we still try and have uninformed opinions on the matter. Thankfully it's very respectful and not like some on the main board. I'd not vote for any party that would have me as a member, Grouchoish

At least we agree on something, we are all uninformed!!🤣

[Stairway 2 7]

At least we agree on something, we are all uninformed!!🤣

It's good fun though 😆 😂

[Paul1642]

We can't just rejoin the EU even if we wanted to instantly, I'd bet good money Labour wouldn't win if they proposed it the next election.

I actually think they would to be honest. They would go into the next election on the manifesto of a referendum as they of course couldn’t just do it without one. It would be a very brave move which is why they probably won’t go for to.

Obviously the last time around it was a 52% to 48% split but it is argued that the remain camp never mobilised their vote on the assumption it was an easy win for remain. I also think that very few remainers will have converted into leave voters but think a sizeable amount of leave voters will have since changed their minds. Basically I think the majority of the country want to rejoin (schengen might be dealbreaker for some though so if EU wanted us back they would be wise to allow us to remain out of it).

I think Labour would then get lent as many votes form non Labour voters who want to rejoin as they would loose from would be Labour voters who want to stay out.

Off course Lib Dem’s and Greens would also be campaigning to rejoin which could split the vote but I think the majority of those determined to rejoin would go for Labour knowing that it would be the best chance, just like the UKIP vote changed to Tory’s last time around.

Reform would also split the Tory vote even higher than last time.

A competent time in government would also help matters as the EU isn’t the only vote swinger.

[lapsedhibee]

Tories ahead in the polls again.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tories-lead-in-polls-for-first-time-in-three-years-after-budget-on-sunak-s-last-day/ar-AA1tlFBi?ocid=BingNewsSerp

And that's without a leader. Imagine how far ahead they would be if Farage jumps ship from Reform. Labour better do everything they want to do in this one parliamentary term.

[Stairway 2 7]

Tories ahead in the polls again.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tories-lead-in-polls-for-first-time-in-three-years-after-budget-on-sunak-s-last-day/ar-AA1tlFBi?ocid=BingNewsSerp

And that's without a leader. Imagine how far ahead they would be if Farage jumps ship from Reform. Labour better do everything they want to do in this one parliamentary term.

Punt on, William hill has Labour 8/13 and tories 2/1 as most seats in the next election tonight.

I think Labour are crap odds. 5 years of growth, Boe inflation dropping by a point, wages growing above inflation each year. It's going to look like normality compared to the 5 previous. Search back I repeated said for two years the Labour odds were ridiculous and they would win easy, all I heard was the media ect. Reform aren't joining they will get seats in Scotland then try a big push in the GE and that will destroy the tories again.

Could be wrong but I don't see it and wouldn't take 2/1 for three tories

[Hibrandenburg]

I actually think they would to be honest. They would go into the next election on the manifesto of a referendum as they of course couldn’t just do it without one. It would be a very brave move which is why they probably won’t go for to.

Obviously the last time around it was a 52% to 48% split but it is argued that the remain camp never mobilised their vote on the assumption it was an easy win for remain. I also think that very few remainers will have converted into leave voters but think a sizeable amount of leave voters will have since changed their minds. Basically I think the majority of the country want to rejoin (schengen might be dealbreaker for some though so if EU wanted us back they would be wise to allow us to remain out of it).

I think Labour would then get lent as many votes form non Labour voters who want to rejoin as they would loose from would be Labour voters who want to stay out.

Off course Lib Dem’s and Greens would also be campaigning to rejoin which could split the vote but I think the majority of those determined to rejoin would go for Labour knowing that it would be the best chance, just like the UKIP vote changed to Tory’s last time around.

Reform would also split the Tory vote even higher than last time.

A competent time in government would also help matters as the EU isn’t the only vote swinger.

Come the next election the Tories will be campaigning on the basis that Labour have failed to make Brexit work and the Swing Gammons will lap it up. Unless Labour make a huge success of this term in office, then the Tories are a shoo-in for the next election.

[Callum_62]

Polling on the next election at this stage is surely absolutely meaningless

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Polling on the next election at this stage is surely absolutely meaningless


Disagree. It means, if nothing else, that voters have subgoldfish memory spans.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gjyj4979o

Are there any Barnett consequences for this??

[Andy Bee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gjyj4979o

Are there any Barnett consequences for this??


That just can't be true.

https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1853445923021479965

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gjyj4979o

Are there any Barnett consequences for this??

I wouldn’t think so. Cost the SG about £900m a year to finance our free education.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

That just can't be true.

https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1853445923021479965You're right, it can't be true. Let's face it, Starmer is many things, but he's not a liar. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

lock the fud up Scottish Labour council leader charged over 'domestic assault' | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/24698615.scottish-labour-council-leader-charged-domestic-assault/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457&u=8c7cbcbaa1741d7cbc339fe13eff0274&date=041124)


A SCOTTISH Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) council leader has been arrested and charged in connection with a domestic assault and a breach of the peace.

Inverclyde Council leader Stephen McCabe is understood to have been arrested at Greenock Police Station and released on bail, appearing in court this morning.
The 60-year-old father-of-four appeared in Glasgow Sherriff Court at 10am.


another jumps ship Former MP quits Labour and blasts 'authoritarian' Keir Starmer | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/24697965.former-mp-quits-labour-blasts-authoritarian-keir-starmer/)

A FORMER Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) MP has quit the party with a public blast at “authoritarian” leader Keir Starmer.

Beth Winter, who was the MP for the Welsh seat Cynon Valley from 2019 until the election, said Labour were “serving corporate interests and protecting the ruling class”.
She had previously criticised the party’s selection method for MPs as “undemocratic” after she was replaced as a Labour candidate by her local party.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Good

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/465411610_477703335325324_38786279222972527_n.jpg? stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=Oee6JUXIzF0Q7kNvgFRQbLR&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=A9FDRoNxipmtuhIx7-i5upw&oh=00_AYAUAE3z9L9GrQwODSt5mAZCZAvvNYntZlcsnSaHvJBg hQ&oe=6730A52E

[Bristolhibby]

Rejoin CU
Rejoin SM
Ultimately full rejoin, Euro & Schengen if necessary
In the meantime, supertax on Gas & Oil excess profits, excess banking profits
Tax the rich - aggressive taxes on those with assets > £50m and those with income >£500k, tapered progressive taxes on those with assets £25m to £50m and income £250k to £500k
Big team of forensic accountants on recovering Covid & PPE fraud money
Jail time for key brexiters (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc)
No more oil & gas licences, aggressive climate change policies (net zero and then some)
Close down the House of Lords, make Westminster into a museum, run a modern 21st century parliament from an office block somewhere (not London) with online voting and online debates.
Oh yes, independence for Scotland
TBC


Off the top of my head.

Gets my vote.

J

[Bristolhibby]

At least we agree on something, we are all uninformed!!🤣

It’s good enough for America.

“I love the poorly educated”

Trump 2016

[Paul1642]

Well, with Trump president again, labours decision to openly help the Harris campaign might be a pretty calamitous one.

Maybe picking sides in our ally’s elections isn’t a great policy.

[Bishop Hibee]

Well, with Trump president again, labours decision to openly help the Harris campaign might be a pretty calamitous one.

Maybe picking sides in our ally’s elections isn’t a great policy.

They didn’t. It was the choice of individual party members. It’s hardly a surprise that a so-called centre left party would support the Democrats over the Republicans. It’s now about how much Starmer is prepared to bite the bullet and cosy up to Trump to prevent eye-watering tariffs.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Well, with Trump president again, labours decision to openly help the Harris campaign might be a pretty calamitous one.

Maybe picking sides in our ally’s elections isn’t a great policy.

If David Lammy had an ounce of integrity he'd have resigned.

I (and I'm sure plenty others) would have more respect for politicians like him if they stood by what they previously said about Trump and had the courage to resign. Instead, he's crawling to congratulate him.
Like most politicians these days he's a self-serving, careerist prick prepared to blow in any direction the wind takes him in order to hold onto high office.

[grunt]

If David Lammy had an ounce of integrity he'd have resigned.

I (and I'm sure plenty others) would have more respect for politicians like him if they stood by what they previously said about Trump and had the courage to resign. Instead, he's crawling to congratulate him.
Like most politicians these days he's a self-serving, careerist prick prepared to blow in any direction the wind takes him in order to hold onto high office.
I think that's a tad harsh. In opposition, politicians are relatively free to make comment on political issues of the day, and there is no doubt he was right in his views about Trump. But as a member of Government, and don't forget Lammy is Foreign Secretary, he has to be mindful of maintaining relations with our allies, regardless of how personally objectionable he may find them or their policies. And I'm no fan of Lammy.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I think that's a tad harsh. In opposition, politicians are relatively free to make comment on political issues of the day, and there is no doubt he was right in his views about Trump. But as a member of Government, and don't forget Lammy is Foreign Secretary, he has to be mindful of maintaining relations with our allies, regardless of how personally objectionable he may find them or their policies. And I'm no fan of Lammy.

He called Trump a "KKK and Nazi sympathiser". He laid into Theresa May when Trump visited the UK "he is not fit to hold public office.....Theresa May is selling out the UK to a serial liar and cheat".
I get what you say about the need to be mindful of maintaining relations with our allies. However, on a personal level, if Lammy genuinely feels that strongly about Trump the honourable thing to do would be to resign his office IMO rather than pretending he didn't mean it, and cosying up to him. I'd much rather politicians said what they mean, and had the courage to stand by it, rather than saying whatever they think people want to hear depending on the political winds.

[lapsedhibee]

He called Trump a "KKK and Nazi sympathiser". He laid into Theresa May when Trump visited the UK "he is not fit to hold public office.....Theresa May is selling out the UK to a serial liar and cheat".
I get what you say about the need to be mindful of maintaining relations with our allies. However, on a personal level, if Lammy genuinely feels that strongly about Trump the honourable thing to do would be to resign his office IMO rather than pretending he didn't mean it, and cosying up to him. I'd much rather politicians said what they mean, and had the courage to stand by it, rather than saying whatever they think people want to hear depending on the political winds.

If everyone in British politics who despises Trump resigned their office, what you'd be left with is Badenoch, Dame Andrea Jenkyns, Farage and the rest of their like. How would that help? :dunno:

[grunt]

However, on a personal level, if Lammy genuinely feels that strongly about Trump the honourable thing to do would be to resign his office IMO rather than pretending he didn't mean it, and cosying up to him. I'd much rather politicians said what they mean, and had the courage to stand by it, rather than saying whatever they think people want to hear depending on the political winds.
Let's say you're a manager in a sales business and you have a really major customer who's a bit of an arse. When he comes into your shop and wants to make a big order, do you refuse to serve him? Maybe you should resign from the business rather than sell to him?

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1854462753705972166?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Cost of borrowing has stayed high after budget. That’s going to cost us all eventually in our mortgages and will be hurting the govt as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1854462753705972166?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Cost of borrowing has stayed high after budget. That’s going to cost us all eventually in our mortgages and will be hurting the govt as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Conways doubling down after getting laughed at for his post budget panic. He got it wrong though it would be up there with the mini budget, instead it is at the top of the average. I'm sure most left wingers would take that for the end of 14 years of austerity and a massive injection into the NHS. You spent months slamming labour because they were going to continue austerity, when the end it you complain they didn't think of the markets.

BOE Inflation is expected to drop 1% in the next 11 months so mortgages will definitely be lower regardless

[jamie_1875]

https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1854462753705972166?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Cost of borrowing has stayed high after budget. That’s going to cost us all eventually in our mortgages and will be hurting the govt as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bank of England just cut interest rates making mortgages cheaper.

[Stairway 2 7]

Bank of England just cut interest rates making mortgages cheaper.

Was just going to type the same they just decreased it this minute. Also the Tory papers said NI and minimum wage increase would cause job losses, BOE says unemployment will drop?

@faisalislam
NEW:

Bank of England cuts rates to 4.75% in an 8-1 vote.

Bailey: “likely that rate will continue to fall gradually from here”

Budget adds 0.75% to GDP, 0.3% to inflation (0.5% is you assume fuel duty escalator eventually kicks in). Unemployment now projected to fall slightly not rise to 4.7%

[cabbageandribs1875]

jail the drunken bum

MP Mike Amesbury has been charged with assault.
The charge against the 55-year-old, who represents Runcorn and Helsby, relates to reports of an assault on a 45-year-old man in Frodsham, Cheshire on 26 October, the Crown Prosecution Service said.
The backbencher has been summonsed to appear in court after the charge was authorised, but the date and venue of his first appearance has not yet been confirmed.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/markkleinmansky/status/1855188098612666723?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/markkleinmansky/status/1855188098612666723?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your becoming quite right wing. We should be able to raise taxes even if multi billion pound companies complain. We heard the minimum wage rise would lead to job losses but BOE now says unemployment will drop. Don't believe the right wing media

[Jack]

https://x.com/markkleinmansky/status/1855188098612666723?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have little sympathy for large companies that pay so many of their employees such a low wage that a small rise in NI makes such a difference to their operating model.

[Ozyhibby]

Your becoming quite right wing. We should be able to raise taxes even if multi billion pound companies complain. We heard the minimum wage rise would lead to job losses but BOE now says unemployment will drop. Don't believe the right wing media

I wasn’t really endorsing their opinion, just sharing.
I don’t employ anyone directly so don’t really know the ins and out of employers NI contributions. And have never been PAYE myself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy Bee]

Your becoming quite right wing. We should be able to raise taxes even if multi billion pound companies complain. We heard the minimum wage rise would lead to job losses but BOE now says unemployment will drop. Don't believe the right wing media

It's not just big companies though is it? Charities are estimated to lose £1.4bn, medical practices an average of £30k per practice, the 3rd sector, private care homes and care providers. The £25bn is estimated to fall to £16.1bn by both the OBR and IFS after the lower tax take is accounted for from lower pay rises and less vacancies. Ultimately it's estimated that 61% of the rise will be passed onto workers, £6bn just to compensate the NHS against the rise and 20 odd % lost to a lower tax take. They backed themselves into a corner with the manifesto and they then dressed this up as not being a tax on workers which it clearly will be.

Frontloading the budget again with a 4.3% rise in spending followed by 2.6% and then 1.3% from 25/26 onwards, unprotected services will be hammered again and we're back to the same old bollox with the added bonus of a probable Farage as PM. Gawd I love this country.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's not just big companies though is it? Charities are estimated to lose £1.4bn, medical practices an average of £30k per practice, the 3rd sector, private care homes and care providers. The £25bn is estimated to fall to £16.1bn by both the OBR and IFS after the lower tax take is accounted for from lower pay rises and less vacancies. Ultimately it's estimated that 61% of the rise will be passed onto workers, £6bn just to compensate the NHS against the rise and 20 odd % lost to a lower tax take. They backed themselves into a corner with the manifesto and they then dressed this up as not being a tax on workers which it clearly will be.

Frontloading the budget again with a 4.3% rise in spending followed by 2.6% and then 1.3% from 25/26 onwards, unprotected services will be hammered again and we're back to the same old bollox with the added bonus of a probable Farage as PM. Gawd I love this country.

You realise the opposite is austerity so pick your poison. I prefer taxes and funding our services. Do you want the council's, education and NHS budget to keep being cut like the last 14 years? It's fine to prefer austerity it's an economic choice but I think it does more harm to those at the bottom. I'm stunned how left wing the budget was as Starmer is firmly centrist unfortunately

Don't worry if Farage or Kemi get it NI will be cut again

[Smartie]

You realise the opposite is austerity so pick your poison. I prefer taxes and funding our services. Do you want the council's, education and NHS budget to keep being cut like the last 14 years? It's fine to prefer austerity it's an economic choice but I think it does more harm to those at the bottom. I'm stunned how left wing the budget was as Starmer is firmly centrist unfortunately

Don't worry if Farage or Kemi get it NI will be cut again

It’s the dishonesty that pisses me off about it.

If Labour had campaigned on a manifesto of tax rises and investment and the country voted it in then I’d have no real issue with it. Corbyn did that though, and the nation rejected it.

Rather than take them in their word, we’re left having to assume “well of course Labour are going to do what Labour do” rather than what they say, which isn’t a great relationship for a government to have with its electorate.


Your point re austerity and picking your poison is fair fwiw. I’d quite like a more open National conversation about how we pay our way in a post-Brexit world with an ageing population, where we rid ourselves of the delusion that we can always make it be somebody else who pays for everything.

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s the dishonesty that pisses me off about it.

If Labour had campaigned on a manifesto of tax rises and investment and the country voted it in then I’d have no real issue with it. Corbyn did that though, and the nation rejected it.

Rather than take them in their word, we’re left having to assume “well of course Labour are going to do what Labour do” rather than what they say, which isn’t a great relationship for a government to have with its electorate.


Your point re austerity and picking your poison is fair fwiw. I’d quite like a more open National conversation about how we pay our way in a post-Brexit world with an ageing population, where we rid ourselves of the delusion that we can always make it be somebody else who pays for everything.

It's definitely a conversation that needs saying and on the topic of honesty not a chance Labour or tories will speak about what we need to do to fund an aging population that is living longer. I think the elephant in the room is we need mass immigration. Both parties are idiots on the subject bending over to populism, SNP are the only party being realistic. But yeah we'll need tax rises to fund the massive increase in pensions that is forecasted. We also need to support businesses and growth. I've not got the answers but I'm not paid to, Labour and tories are and they aren't up to it

[MKHIBEE]

It's not just big companies though is it? Charities are estimated to lose £1.4bn, medical practices an average of £30k per practice, the 3rd sector, private care homes and care providers. The £25bn is estimated to fall to £16.1bn by both the OBR and IFS after the lower tax take is accounted for from lower pay rises and less vacancies. Ultimately it's estimated that 61% of the rise will be passed onto workers, £6bn just to compensate the NHS against the rise and 20 odd % lost to a lower tax take. They backed themselves into a corner with the manifesto and they then dressed this up as not being a tax on workers which it clearly will be.

Frontloading the budget again with a 4.3% rise in spending followed by 2.6% and then 1.3% from 25/26 onwards, unprotected services will be hammered again and we're back to the same old bollox with the added bonus of a probable Farage as PM. Gawd I love this country.

Cannot see that happening.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/465970717_10162419974514439_4814193286714857965_n. jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=nUahtUV1V2kQ7kNvgHtccxb&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=AkYewdqEHJFxE8WelrSm7g6&oh=00_AYDVNgYeDaSPBxVejbJfU5uIC473QJSuRFxPBKqTs9Su 3A&oe=6739912E

[Smartie]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/465970717_10162419974514439_4814193286714857965_n. jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=nUahtUV1V2kQ7kNvgHtccxb&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=AkYewdqEHJFxE8WelrSm7g6&oh=00_AYDVNgYeDaSPBxVejbJfU5uIC473QJSuRFxPBKqTs9Su 3A&oe=6739912E

That’s a truly despicable sentiment and turn of phrase to be used by anyone in the Labour Party.

Shameful.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr4lkk1vy9vo


Oh dear. How could they not know??

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr4lkk1vy9vo


Oh dear. How could they not know??

All the Hindus and Sikhs I know drink, big Sikh community in Leith used to drink with a few in Leith walk boozers. I guess it's like having drink at a Christmas celebration when many Baptists and Methodists don't drink. Can't please everyone I suppose, I'll raise a glass tonight to the non drinkers

[Moulin Yarns]

All the Hindus and Sikhs I know drink, big Sikh community in Leith used to drink with a few in Leith walk boozers. I guess it's like having drink at a Christmas celebration when many Baptists and Methodists don't drink. Can't please everyone I suppose, I'll raise a glass tonight to the non drinkers

What about serving beef from the sacred cow ?🤔

[cabbageandribs1875]

That’s a truly despicable sentiment and turn of phrase to be used by anyone in the Labour Party.

Shameful.

i'm astonished he thinks it's an industry we can do without, maybe he has shares in an import business

[Stairway 2 7]

What about serving beef from the sacred cow ?🤔

The Tory said in his letter that they served meat and alcohol, he doesn't mention beef. Most UK Hindus eat meat

[wookie70]

i'm astonished he thinks it's an industry we can do without, maybe he has shares in an import business


I would argue it is worse than that. He said we don't need small farmers not the whole industry. You know the ones that farm more environmentally and responsibly and are usually owned by the workers. You would think that would appeal to a Labour MP but those days are gone. I personally think Labour were right to close that loophole. Anything in the government's power to reduce land and property prices should be used imo. Starting with a loophole that allowed the rich a tax free advantage is a good place to start and only the very rich will actually be taxed.

[Stairway 2 7]

I would argue it is worse than that. He said we don't need small farmers not the whole industry. You know the ones that farm more environmentally and responsibly and are usually owned by the workers. You would think that would appeal to a Labour MP but those days are gone. I personally think Labour were right to close that loophole. Anything in the government's power to reduce land and property prices should be used imo. Starting with a loophole that allowed the rich a tax free advantage is a good place to start and only the very rich will actually be taxed.

He's not an MP he was an adviser over a decade ago, last worked with the erse Jim Murphy i think. He's always been a blairite prick who craves attention and will be loving he's got it this week, he reminds me of Kelvin MacKenzie

Agree with the inheritance tax reform also. You would think it was every Farmer but it's the top 5% who have multi million pounds worth of land. The papers and dolts like Jeremy Clarkson will obviously think it's an injustice not being able to hoard wealth

[Northernhibee]

[/B][/I][/U]Cannot see that happening.

In many ways it’s a massive threat not to be underestimated.

[jacomo]

You realise the opposite is austerity so pick your poison. I prefer taxes and funding our services. Do you want the council's, education and NHS budget to keep being cut like the last 14 years? It's fine to prefer austerity it's an economic choice but I think it does more harm to those at the bottom. I'm stunned how left wing the budget was as Starmer is firmly centrist unfortunately

Don't worry if Farage or Kemi get it NI will be cut again


No, there is another alternative: taxing the enormously wealthy.

Labour don’t want to do that though, or rethink the taxation system in a more thorough way, so we are left with even more complexity and semantics.

[jacomo]

He's not an MP he was an adviser over a decade ago, last worked with the erse Jim Murphy i think. He's always been a blairite prick who craves attention and will be loving he's got it this week, he reminds me of Kelvin MacKenzie

Agree with the inheritance tax reform also. You would think it was every Farmer but it's the top 5% who have multi million pounds worth of land. The papers and dolts like Jeremy Clarkson will obviously think it's an injustice not being able to hoard wealth


I don’t think is true. Seems like many multi-generational family farms are at risk, which would be another big mistake from this government.

[Andy Bee]

He's not an MP he was an adviser over a decade ago, last worked with the erse Jim Murphy i think. He's always been a blairite prick who craves attention and will be loving he's got it this week, he reminds me of Kelvin MacKenzie

Agree with the inheritance tax reform also. You would think it was every Farmer but it's the top 5% who have multi million pounds worth of land. The papers and dolts like Jeremy Clarkson will obviously think it's an injustice not being able to hoard wealth

I'm not sure where you get this "top 5%" or if it's even true but this "multi million pounds worth of land" is a bit creative. At very best it's £3m when a couple combine their tax free allowances and are passing to a direct descendant, that halves when there's only one person e.g a widow or single person. It's also not just land, it's all business assets, sheds, livestock, machinery and land, basically everything apart from the farmhouse. I don't know how many farmers you know but I know a few and they will be paying tax when it comes time so this shouldn't be dressed up as some tax only for super rich land owners it effects a lot of normal farmers who are already at their wits end because of Brexit. Feel free to go down to Wales and tell the 1,000s of farmers demonstrating outside the Labour Party Conference over this issue that it wont effect them because I'm pretty sure they've all done their sums.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t think is true. Seems like many multi-generational family farms are at risk, which would be another big mistake from this government.

Your right its the top 5% wealthiest in the population that are effected by the new inheritance tax. There are about 28% of farms that could be effected but it once in a lifetime so less than 500 farms per year. Why should millionaires keep the wealth forever without it being taxed. 1.35 million isn't taxed and if he's married his wife can do the same so 2.7 million tax free passed down untaxed is more than generous no



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/17/farmers-have-hoarded-land-for-too-long-inheritance-tax-will-bring-new-life-to-rural-britain

"Half a million people die every year. Under the reforms to inheritance tax relief on agricultural land proposed in the budget, about 500 individuals who inherit land worth more than £2m (£3m if they were married to the deceased) will join the rest of society and have inheritance tax levied on their bequest – albeit at half the rate, with an enlarged exemption and 10 years to pay it, concessions not made to the rest of us. How fortunate and privileged are they?"

[CropleyWasGod]

Your right its the top 5% wealthiest in the population that are effected by the new inheritance tax. There are about 28% of farms that could be effected but it once in a lifetime so less than 500 farms per year. Why should millionaires keep the wealth forever without it being taxed. 1.35 million isn't taxed and if he's married his wife can do the same so 2.7 million tax free passed down untaxed is more than generous no



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/17/farmers-have-hoarded-land-for-too-long-inheritance-tax-will-bring-new-life-to-rural-britain

"Half a million people die every year. Under the reforms to inheritance tax relief on agricultural land proposed in the budget, about 500 individuals who inherit land worth more than £2m (£3m if they were married to the deceased) will join the rest of society and have inheritance tax levied on their bequest – albeit at half the rate, with an enlarged exemption and 10 years to pay it, concessions not made to the rest of us. How fortunate and privileged are they?"

It's also a tax that's relatively easy to avoid. With plenty preparation, and the use of partnerships, trusts and transferring holdings, the tax on the inheritors can be reduced or removed.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not sure where you get this "top 5%" or if it's even true but this "multi million pounds worth of land" is a bit creative. At very best it's £3m when a couple combine their tax free allowances and are passing to a direct descendant, that halves when there's only one person e.g a widow or single person. It's also not just land, it's all business assets, sheds, livestock, machinery and land, basically everything apart from the farmhouse. I don't know how many farmers you know but I know a few and they will be paying tax when it comes time so this shouldn't be dressed up as some tax only for super rich land owners it effects a lot of normal farmers who are already at their wits end because of Brexit. Feel free to go down to Wales and tell the 1,000s of farmers demonstrating outside the Labour Party Conference over this issue that it wont effect them because I'm pretty sure they've all done their sums.

They are the top 5% richest people in the UK they have millions in assets. I'll tell them in what world do they think they shouldn't pay tax on 3 million worth of assets passed down when the rest of the population do. If paying tax on 3 million assets is too tough for them to bear sell up take there 3 plus and live a life most in Britain couldn't dream of. Us for brexit the more rural the area in Britain the more likely they were to vote for brexit, same goes for Conservative. Even better give them a fair price for the land and start nationalising food production

[Stairway 2 7]

It's also a tax that's relatively easy to avoid. With plenty preparation, and the use of partnerships, trusts and transferring holdings, the tax on the inheritors can be reduced or removed.

Farmer can also transfer the property 7 years before their death and avoid the tax, which shouldn't be a problem if its multi generational. The law is completely for those with massive assets. Some like Clarkson pretend to be farmers only farming a small part of the land to avoid tax, think he farms 20% or something

[CropleyWasGod]

Farmer can also transfer the property 7 years before their death and avoid the tax, which shouldn't be a problem if its multi generational. The law is completely for those with massive assets. Some like Clarkson pretend to be farmers only farming a small part of the land to avoid tax, think he farms 20% or something

That won't qualify for Agricultural Property Relief in the same way that typical farms do.

[Andy Bee]

They are the top 5% richest people in the UK they have millions in assets. I'll tell them in what world do they think they shouldn't pay tax on 3 million worth of assets passed down when the rest of the population do. If paying tax on 3 million assets is too tough for them to bear sell up take there 3 plus and live a life most in Britain couldn't dream of. Us for brexit the more rural the area in Britain the more likely they were to vote for brexit, same goes for Conservative. Even better give them a fair price for the land and start nationalising food production

There you go again, dressing farmers up as some kind of super rich wealth extractors, you're gaslighting. The key word here is "assets", these assets have frequently been passed down through the generations, the costs of these assets have risen because of the super rich buying them up as tax incentives. By all means try and single out the few who own land for tax purposes and tax them accordingly but this is just another case of the UK Government not having the systems in place or the motivation to identify these people. It's just the same as taking away the Winter Fuel Allowance, instead of identifying pensioners who didn't need it they slapped the cuts on all of them.

Nationalising food production? You're having a laugh aint you? Who's going to create the food in this utopia of food production, the farmers, the very same people you've just shafted? I very much doubt it.

Maybe you could have a word with this guy as him and many other farmers were waiting on Starmer to put their minds at rest, maybe you could put your thoughts to him and see what response you get. His family have been farming the same land for 375 years BTW.

https://x.com/Inevitablewest/status/1857807216289394877
https://x.com/NoFarmsNoFoods/status/1858163944445170108

[Stairway 2 7]

There you go again, dressing farmers up as some kind of super rich wealth extractors, you're gaslighting. The key word here is "assets", these assets have frequently been passed down through the generations, the costs of these assets have risen because of the super rich buying them up as tax incentives. By all means try and single out the few who own land for tax purposes and tax them accordingly but this is just another case of the UK Government not having the systems in place or the motivation to identify these people. It's just the same as taking away the Winter Fuel Allowance, instead of identifying pensioners who didn't need it they slapped the cuts on all of them.

Nationalising food production? You're having a laugh aint you? Who's going to create the food in this utopia of food production, the farmers, the very same people you've just shafted? I very much doubt it.

Maybe you could have a word with this guy as him and many other farmers were waiting on Starmer to put their minds at rest, maybe you could put your thoughts to him and see what response you get. His family have been farming the same land for 375 years BTW.

https://x.com/Inevitablewest/status/1857807216289394877
https://x.com/NoFarmsNoFoods/status/1858163944445170108

Would gladly tell him old angry farmer who doesn't want to pay 20% tax above 1.35 million or 2.7 if he's married. If they have been farming it that long he can pass it to his kids and pay no tax unlike us who don't have multi million pound assets. He'll probably know how to avoid most of it anyway. Why should the select few hold our land and wealth forever through right of birth. Any other business owner would either pass it to their kids when alive, pay the tax or sell up and use the millions to live a life in the sun.

In the last few months on here I've had to argue for ending austerity, taxing the top 4% of people in the UK inheritance tax, taxing private schools and raising the minimum wage. I guess many are more right wing than they realise or left wing until it effects people they know

[Andy Bee]

Would gladly tell him old angry farmer who doesn't want to pay 20% tax above 1.35 million or 2.7 if he's married. If they have been farming it that long he can pass it to his kids and pay no tax unlike us who don't have multi million pound assets. He'll probably know how to avoid most of it anyway. Why should the select few hold our land and wealth forever through right of birth. Any other business owner would either pass it to their kids when alive, pay the tax or sell up and use the millions to live a life in the sun.

In the last few months on here I've had to argue for ending austerity, taxing the top 4% of people in the UK inheritance tax, taxing private schools and raising the minimum wage. I guess many are more right wing than they realise or left wing until it effects people they know

Oh please, get off your high horse. So it's resentment for you? You don't like people owning land even when that land is simply a tool for creating good quality food for all of us. Land to farmers is no different than a hammer and saw is to a joiner or spanners and sockets is to a mechanic. It doesn't matter what it's worth when you need it to create food. You're dressing up farmers as some plus four Tweed wearing millionaires, they're not. DEFRA calculates that 66% of farmers will be affected by this not the 5% you're quoting. The tax advice for farmers up to 7/10/24 was for them to hold onto their assets until death, the day after it's completely changed without any notice. There's older farmers out there that may not have seven years, there's farmers that may have already lost a partner and they're now screwed because there is no surplus cash to finance this tax after death. Stop dressing this up as left wing or as taxing the privileged, it's nonsense.

You're conflating farmers with Dukes and Duchesses, Lords and Ladies, people whose ancestors were gifted vast amounts of land hundreds of years ago for their loyalty to a bygone monarchy, often for clearances of the very people you're now stating as being privileged. Here's a fact for you, 15% of the privately owned land in Scotland is used solely so the rich and famous can enjoy the pastime of shooting birds, skelp that kind of land ownership, not the people who often get up at 5am and finish at sunset just to create good quality food for us all. Here's another sombre fact for you, farming has one of the highest suicide rates in this country.

[Jack]

I suspect most inheritance tax is paid by people who are caught unawares.

I'm sure most people who are likely to be due inheritance tax find ways of avoiding it.

If the Duke of Westminster can avoid paying £4bn inheritance tax it can't be beyond the wit of your average tax accountant or whoever to avoid the moderate sums due by farmers.

[Stairway 2 7]

Oh please, get off your high horse. So it's resentment for you? You don't like people owning land even when that land is simply a tool for creating good quality food for all of us. Land to farmers is no different than a hammer and saw is to a joiner or spanners and sockets is to a mechanic. It doesn't matter what it's worth when you need it to create food. You're dressing up farmers as some plus four Tweed wearing millionaires, they're not. DEFRA calculates that 66% of farmers will be affected by this not the 5% you're quoting. The tax advice for farmers up to 7/10/24 was for them to hold onto their assets until death, the day after it's completely changed without any notice. There's older farmers out there that may not have seven years, there's farmers that may have already lost a partner and they're now screwed because there is no surplus cash to finance this tax after death. Stop dressing this up as left wing or as taxing the privileged, it's nonsense.

You're conflating farmers with Dukes and Duchesses, Lords and Ladies, people whose ancestors were gifted vast amounts of land hundreds of years ago for their loyalty to a bygone monarchy, often for clearances of the very people you're now stating as being privileged. Here's a fact for you, 15% of the privately owned land in Scotland is used solely so the rich and famous can enjoy the pastime of shooting birds, skelp that kind of land ownership, not the people who often get up at 5am and finish at sunset just to create good quality food for us all. Here's another sombre fact for you, farming has one of the highest suicide rates in this country.

The older ones aren't screwed this is for assets over 1.35 million and only 20% of that and they have 10 years to pay it. Land to a farmer is different to a saw if my mate was crying about inheritance tax and his saw was worth 2 million he'd sell it and move to Barbados. Farmers won't sell up they will probably put it into trusts and pay nowt or just pay the tax

IFS say this will affect 500 farmers per year, 500k people die per year and have to pay inheritance tax.

250k Scottish kids live in poverty and we're supposed to feel bad because people with millions in assets want to keep that wealth forever without it being taxed, even at a very generous rate.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's also a tax that's relatively easy to avoid. With plenty preparation, and the use of partnerships, trusts and transferring holdings, the tax on the inheritors can be reduced or removed.

I also imagine most large farms are registered businesses, family members as directors. Is inheritance tax levied in this instance??

[Andy Bee]

The older ones aren't screwed this is for assets over 1.35 million and only 20% of that and they have 10 years to pay it. Land to a farmer is different to a saw if my mate was crying about inheritance tax and his saw was worth 2 million he'd sell it and move to Barbados. Farmers won't sell up they will probably put it into trusts and pay nowt or just pay the tax

IFS say this will affect 500 farmers per year, 500k people die per year and have to pay inheritance tax.

250k Scottish kids live in poverty and we're supposed to feel bad because people with millions in assets want to keep that wealth forever without it being taxed, even at a very generous rate.

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: There you go again, you're now blaming farmers for child poverty in Scotland, gawd this is hard work, two child benefit cap for starters anyone? Maybe we should just line all these yokel, welly wearing, Ferrari driving fat cats up and deport them, wait until after harvest time though as I couldn't cope with the beer shortage. If it's that easy to dodge this tax or it effects small numbers then why implement it? We've all seen what world conflicts do to the price of food here, its devastating, inflation, rents, mortgages, so why stick an extra tax on the very industry that could give us the food security we need? It's an ill thought out policy just like the NIC rise for employers and just like the WFA cut for pensioners.

You mentioned about you arguing about things like the private school tax and everyone else being "right wing" but you did the same thing there. You dressed it up as the tax will only cost the rich, like a small army of little Jacob Rees Moggs not being able to buy the latest Louis Vuitton brogues. In reality the majority of schools being hit are specialised schools for kids in need of special education, kids with autism or other specialised needs, kids who can survive in normal education but who thrive in specialised schools that their parents have to pay for. It's not right wing to support schools like that not having extra burdens put on them. Yet again another ill thought out policy just to garner the headlines, basically dogma.

It's becoming more and more apparent for whatever reason, whether it's no systems in place, laziness, no motivation due to either cost or more sinister reasons or simply lack of awareness that the UK and Scottish Government to a lesser extent lack the will to implement these policies with a focus on implementing them to the exact cohort of people they should be targeting. The WFA for example in Scotland could of been given to anyone paying the 19% income tax rate and below which could of given the allowance to pensioners receiving £18.5k or below. The NICs rise could've excluded charities, medical practices, social care, hospices etc, the VAT on private schools could of put exemptions on special needs schools but they just carpet bomb everyone without any thought whatsoever. Inheritance tax on farmers is following the exact same principle.

500 farmers per year you say, HMRC and the Treasury state 1700 farmers in total claim for agricultural property inheritance tax relief per year so that's around 30% in total that would be eligible to pay it now, WTF happened to your 5% you quoted earlier?

[Stairway 2 7]

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: There you go again, you're now blaming farmers for child poverty in Scotland, gawd this is hard work, two child benefit cap for starters anyone? Maybe we should just line all these yokel, welly wearing, Ferrari driving fat cats up and deport them, wait until after harvest time though as I couldn't cope with the beer shortage. If it's that easy to dodge this tax or it effects small numbers then why implement it? We've all seen what world conflicts do to the price of food here, its devastating, inflation, rents, mortgages, so why stick an extra tax on the very industry that could give us the food security we need? It's an ill thought out policy just like the NIC rise for employers and just like the WFA cut for pensioners.

You mentioned about you arguing about things like the private school tax and everyone else being "right wing" but you did the same thing there. You dressed it up as the tax will only cost the rich, like a small army of little Jacob Rees Moggs not being able to buy the latest Louis Vuitton brogues. In reality the majority of schools being hit are specialised schools for kids in need of special education, kids with autism or other specialised needs, kids who can survive in normal education but who thrive in specialised schools that their parents have to pay for. It's not right wing to support schools like that not having extra burdens put on them. Yet again another ill thought out policy just to garner the headlines, basically dogma.

It's becoming more and more apparent for whatever reason, whether it's no systems in place, laziness, no motivation due to either cost or more sinister reasons or simply lack of awareness that the UK and Scottish Government to a lesser extent lack the will to implement these policies with a focus on implementing them to the exact cohort of people they should be targeting. The WFA for example in Scotland could of been given to anyone paying the 19% income tax rate and below which could of given the allowance to pensioners receiving £18.5k or below. The NICs rise could've excluded charities, medical practices, social care, hospices etc, the VAT on private schools could of put exemptions on special needs schools but they just carpet bomb everyone without any thought whatsoever. Inheritance tax on farmers is following the exact same principle.

500 farmers per year you say, HMRC and the Treasury state 1700 farmers in total claim for agricultural property inheritance tax relief per year so that's around 30% in total that would be eligible to pay it now, WTF happened to your 5% you quoted earlier?

Your trying to gaslight that the top 5% of the population aren't rich and they are just hard working people being punished. There was a 40 billion deficit in public services that effects disproportionately the least well off in society. We needed to get that money they got it mostly from the top 5%, like business owners, those that can afford 10k per year for private school and farmers with multi million pound assets.

I don't think you have a perception of what rich is. I mention child poverty because the only way we stop that is by taxing the top 5%. The idea that we just tax the top 0.1% loads more is student politics, they can easily move country. Same goes for big business Ireland shows you can get rich by taxing them nothing, if you tax them too high they move country. It's gutting but true. You're seriously try to defend people paying 20% tax on over 1.35 or 2.7 million and getting 10 years to pay it, the rest of us pay 40% essential business or not. The 500 number is from the government and the institute of fiscal studies I'm not sure if it's right or not. As for them avoiding tax or just passing it to children they probably will but that doesn't mean it's not fair to still ask for it

I don't believe in any private schools any put they shouldn't get tax exemption. You say the majority of private schools are for special needs yet only 5.3% of children that go to private school has an EHC plan, English stats

https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/special-educational-needs-in-england

550,000 kids go to private school in England but only 29,000 have a EHC plan for special needs. There are 576,000 kids in state schools with a EHC plan. I don't believe in 2 tiered education and people that can afford 5 figures per child are the people who should be paying more tax so that those at the bottom can get out of poverty.

These are both left wing policies imo and you have the right to disagree with them but I personally agree with them.

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t think is true. Seems like many multi-generational family farms are at risk, which would be another big mistake from this government.

How are they at risk?
If you inherit a £10m farm and to have to take out a £2m mortgage to pay the tax then you still have a very good deal?


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[Ozyhibby]

This is why a wealth tax never happens. As soon as one is devised people who don’t have wealth jump in to defend the wealthy.


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[Ozyhibby]

This is why a wealth tax never happens. As soon as one is devised people who don’t have wealth jump in to defend the wealthy.


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[lapsedhibee]

This is why a wealth tax never happens. As soon as one is devised people who don’t have wealth jump in to defend the wealthy.


Yup, the protesting from people on behalf of landowners and landlords recently has been far ower much.

[Ozyhibby]

I’d like to just say that if anyone wants to leave me a massive farm worth £5m I’ll be absolutely delighted to be sending £1m to HMRC. [emoji106]


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[Andy Bee]

How are they at risk?
If you inherit a £10m farm and to have to take out a £2m mortgage to pay the tax then you still have a very good deal?


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A 10 year mortgage for £2m costs around £22k a month at 5% which is probably not achievable because you'll need to show around £350k a year of income to qualify for that, use the farm as a security and the rate rockets. The average farm income is around £60k a year with 41% earning over £50k so 59% below £50k. Clarksons 1000 acre farm estimated to be worth around £12.5m earned £72k profit in his 3rd season which included things like his own beer, successful farm shop and restaurant due to him being able to invest some of his own wealth, not realistic for a normal farmer. So no it's not a good deal, you'll have to sell a whole load of land to cover the cost. Who buys the land? Probably someone like the Duke mentioned earlier, it certainly wont be a normal farmer. You'll only have one option Mr Ozzy, you'll have to sell the farm.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’d like to just say that if anyone wants to leave me a massive farm worth £5m I’ll be absolutely delighted to be sending £1m to HMRC. [emoji106]


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Where are you getting the £1m from?

[Ozyhibby]

A 10 year mortgage for £2m costs around £22k a month at 5% which is probably not achievable because you'll need to show around £350k a year of income to qualify for that, use the farm as a security and the rate rockets. The average farm income is around £60k a year with 41% earning over £50k so 59% below £50k. Clarksons 1000 acre farm estimated to be worth around £12.5m earned £72k profit in his 3rd season which included things like his own beer, successful farm shop and restaurant due to him being able to invest some of his own wealth, not realistic for a normal farmer. So no it's not a good deal, you'll have to sell a whole load of land to cover the cost. Who buys the land? Probably someone like the Duke mentioned earlier, it certainly wont be a normal farmer. You'll only have one option Mr Ozzy, you'll have to sell the farm.

A £10m farm isn’t an average farm.
And if they are not making any money then who is valuing them?


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[Ozyhibby]

Where are you getting the £1m from?

I’m sure it would be a lot less.


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[CropleyWasGod]

I’m sure it would be a lot less.


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I meant., how are you going to raise the cash to pay the tax?

[Ozyhibby]

I meant., how are you going to raise the cash to pay the tax?

Surely if I am left an asset with £5m I could go to the bank and borrow 20% of the value of it?
If I was left a £1m house I would be able to borrow £200K pretty quickly to pay any tax due?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Surely if I am left an asset with £5m I could go to the bank and borrow 20% of the value of it?
If I was left a £1m house I would be able to borrow £200K pretty quickly to pay any tax due?


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How are you going to repay it? Do you have the means to repay a £1m loan?

(just noticed, the same point has been made a few posts ago)

[Ozyhibby]

How are you going to repay it? Do you have the means to repay a £1m loan?

(just noticed, the same point has been made a few posts ago)

If it’s an income producing asset then I repay it from that? If it’s a house, I rent it out and then pay the mortgage.
If it’s a farm, I work the farm and repay it from that?
If you are saying that these farms can’t repay a loan on 20% of their value then I would say that they are horrifically overvalued and possibly only valued that highly because people are using them as a means to avoid inheritance tax?[emoji2369]


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[CropleyWasGod]

If it’s an income producing asset then I repay it from that? If it’s a house, I rent it out and then pay the mortgage.
If it’s a farm, I work the farm and repay it from that?
If you are saying that these farms can’t repay a loan on 20% of their value then I would say that they are horrifically overvalued and possibly only valued that highly because people are using them as a means to avoid inheritance tax?[emoji2369]


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A £1m loan, over say 20 years, is going to cost you £50k pa in capital alone. And then there's the interest. Does your farm have the income to service that, as well as your other overheads?

"And, Mr. Oz, how experienced are you in working a farm?" :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

A £1m loan, over say 20 years, is going to cost you £50k pa in capital alone. And then there's the interest. Does your farm have the income to service that, as well as your other overheads?

"And, Mr. Oz, how experienced are you in working a farm?" :greengrin

Surely the farmers argument is they are leaving it to family who are experienced in running the farm?
If not then surely they are selling it and charging them a 20% tax will be no problem as they still have £800k?
My point is, why are farms different from all other asset classes?
Surely an asset worth £1m can generate enough to pay back £50k per annum?


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[Andy Bee]

A £1m loan, over say 20 years, is going to cost you £50k pa in capital alone. And then there's the interest. Does your farm have the income to service that, as well as your other overheads?

"And, Mr. Oz, how experienced are you in working a farm?" :greengrin

You've only got an average income of £60k per annum with 59% under £50k. Buy Llamas Mr Ozzy, apparently they're the in thing.

This is why farms are all diversifying now because the normal farming business can't pay. Farmers are now becoming experts in holiday lets, shopkeepers, rare breeds, beer and other alcoholic drinks and I've even heard of farmers offering natural burials just to try and top their income up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely the farmers argument is they are leaving it to family who are experienced in running the farm?
If not then surely they are selling it and charging them a 20% tax will be no problem as they still have £800k?
My point is, why are farms different from all other asset classes?
Surely an asset worth £1m can generate enough to pay back £50k per annum?


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Looks like, as the previous poster suggested, you're selling the farm :greengrin

If only the old bugger had done as he was told 20 years ago and taken out a life assurance policy to cover the tax. :cb

As for your point about being treated differently, it's not strictly true. Business Property Relief is still available (albeit the rate is reducing soon) and, arguably, more valuable than Agricultural Property Relief. The likes of Clarkson, with their non-agricultural elements, will still be able to benefit from that.

[Ozyhibby]

You've only got an average income of £60k per annum with 59% under £50k. Buy Llamas Mr Ozzy, apparently they're the in thing.

This is why farms are all diversifying now because the normal farming business can't pay. Farmers are now becoming experts in holiday lets, shopkeepers, rare breeds, beer and other alcoholic drinks and I've even heard of farmers offering natural burials just to try and top their income up.

The average farm you mention above are unaffected by this?[emoji2369]


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[Ozyhibby]

Looks like, as the previous poster suggested, you're selling the farm :greengrin

If only the old bugger had done as he was told 20 years ago and taken out a life assurance policy to cover the tax. :cb

As for your point about being treated differently, it's not strictly true. Business Property Relief is still available and, arguably, more valuable than Agricultural Property Relief. The likes of Clarkson, with their non-agricultural elements, will still be able to benefit from that.

This is really about whether you believe in inheritance tax or not? If you don’t then that’s fine. It’s a perfectly legitimate angle.
It’s funny reading on here for years people saying wealth should be taxed but the first sign of it happening and everyone is up in arms.
Personally it’s better for me to get rid of it but I can see why it is good for society.


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[Andy Bee]

The average farm you mention above are unaffected by this?[emoji2369]


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The IFS state that it's very hard to nail a figure down. HMRC and the Treasury state that in total 1700 claims on average have been submitted every year for agricultural inheritance tax relief but that includes very small micro farms and the likes but 500 a year of those claims would be affected so around 30% of all claims. This is where DEFRA probably get their estimate of 66% of farms could be affected as I think they're only including normal farms in that 1700 figure.

Because of the tax avoidance that has went on previously in using land as an avoidance vehicle the price has rocketed and the farmers are being hit because of it, add to that the more than doubling of materials like fertiliser, seeds and animal feed because of the Ukraine conflict and they're struggling badly.

[Ozyhibby]

The IFS state that it's very hard to nail a figure down. HMRC and the Treasury state that in total 1700 claims on average have been submitted every year for agricultural inheritance tax relief but that includes very small micro farms and the likes but 500 a year of those claims would be affected so around 30% of all claims. This is where DEFRA probably get their estimate of 66% of farms could be affected as I think they're only including normal farms in that 1700 figure.

Because of the tax avoidance that has went on previously in using land as an avoidance vehicle the price has rocketed and the farmers are being hit because of it, add to that the more than doubling of materials like fertiliser, seeds and animal feed because of the Ukraine conflict and they're struggling badly.

So the absence of inheritance tax has inflated the value of farms beyond what those who work farms can pay?


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[Andy Bee]

So the absence of inheritance tax has inflated the value of farms beyond what those who work farms can pay?


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The wealthy found a mechanism to pass on their wealth to their descendants tax free and abused it catching normal farmers in the crossfire. Surely it shouldn't be outwith the realms of possibilities to identify those that are avoiding tax and close that loophole rather than carpet bomb the whole industry?

[Ozyhibby]

The wealthy found a mechanism to pass on their wealth to their descendants tax free and abused it catching normal farmers in the crossfire. Surely it shouldn't be outwith the realms of possibilities to identify those that are avoiding tax and close that loophole rather than carpet bomb the whole industry?

This should be good for normal farmers? It will massively bring down the value of farms so that ordinary farmers can buy their own land?


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[Andy Bee]

This should be good for normal farmers? It will massively bring down the value of farms so that ordinary farmers can buy their own land?


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Exactly

[lapsedhibee]

Exactly

:confused: Mr Andy, are you now agreeing with Mr Ozzy's argument?

[Stairway 2 7]

There were 462 inherited farms last year that were valued above £1 million

345 valued between £1m and £2.5m
80 at £2.5m to £5m
37 above £5m

75% of farmers are married I'd read so the majority wouldn't pay any tax as they get £2.7 million tax free.

Even Oz's £5 million farm if they are single it'll be £1.35 million tax free and if they are smart they get married and £2.7 million tax free so only £2.3 million is taxed so £460k tax. If they can't afford that tax sell up live in Barbados comfortably for the rest of your life. A £5 mil farm won't be making the same as the average which will be based closer to a £1 million farm






https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o.amp

[Andy Bee]

:confused: Mr Andy, are you now agreeing with Mr Ozzy's argument?

I think Mr Ozzy is agreeing with mine. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

There were 462 inherited farms last year that were valued above £1 million

345 valued between £1m and £2.5m
80 at £2.5m to £5m
37 above £5m

75% of farmers are married I'd read so the majority wouldn't pay any tax as they get £2.7 million tax free.

Even Oz's £5 million farm if they are single it'll be £1.35 million tax free and if they are smart they get married and £2.7 million tax free so only £2.3 million is taxed so £460k tax. If they can't afford that tax sell up live in Barbados comfortably for the rest of your life. A £5 mil farm won't be making the same as the average which will be based closer to a £1 million farm


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o.amp


And then there are those who have transferred shares to their kids, put some in trust for their grandkids and/or taken out adequate life assurance to cover any tax.

That £2.3m is looking a lot smaller.

[Andy Bee]

And then there are those who have transferred shares to their kids, put some in trust for their grandkids and/or taken out adequate life assurance to cover any tax.

That £2.3m is looking a lot smaller.

The tax advice they were given up to Oct 7th was to hold onto everything though, it would take a very astute farmer to employ an advisor and have him implement those kind of measures before Oct 7th just on the off chance wouldn't it? Out of interest CWG what do you think an advisor would cost who would have the knowledge to advise on this kind of situation? I know employing a personal financial advisor to manage a retirement plan costs in the region of £2k a year.

I'm not subscribing to the argument that just because it's easy to mitigate around tax rises it isn't a problem, surely that should raise questions around the tax system rather than farmers? Just don't implement the tax on farmers and create a way to tax the people that are abusing the system.

[grunt]

I know employing a personal financial advisor to manage a retirement plan costs in the region of £2k a year.
Are you sure it's not a percentage of the fund value?

[Andy Bee]

Are you sure it's not a percentage of the fund value?

It may differ with each advisor but the one I know charges around £2k on average depending on complexity. The money that can be saved can be eye watering though.