The future of the Labour Party

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Did you read the article?

With regard to your final question, I certainly wouldn't tell them to vote Tory. What would you advise them to do?

I did. I would advise them to demand a real alternative rather than buying into Stamer's lie that this is necessary. It's the same shtick the tories gave us back in 2010.

[Hibbyradge]

I did. I would advise them to demand a real alternative rather than buying into Stamer's lie that this is necessary. It's the same shtick the tories gave us back in 2010.

What's the real alternative they should demand?

Are there many on offer?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What's the real alternative they should demand?

Are there many on offer?

We only have to look at other countries across Europe to see how they're approaching things differently in order to stabilize their economies without inflicting unbearable hardships on their population. Labour could learn a thing or two by looking across the continent, but they're blind sided by brexit these days.

[grunt]

This is about sending a message.
Agreed. I simply said I felt for him.

[SHODAN]

Normally not a fan of playground insult nicknames but this one's pretty on point.

https://i.imgur.com/d2QDpYm.png

[Hibbyradge]

We only have to look at other countries across Europe to see how they're approaching things differently in order to stabilize their economies without inflicting unbearable hardships on their population. Labour could learn a thing or two by looking across the continent, but they're blind sided by brexit these days.

I was asking what alternatives to Labour you would recommend to those who can't manage another 5 years of ideologically driven austerity.

[Ozyhibby]

I was asking what alternatives to Labour you would recommend to those who can't manage another 5 years of ideologically driven austerity.

The SNP actually oppose the 2 child rule. Properly oppose, unlike Scottish Labour.


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[Hibrandenburg]

The SNP actually oppose the 2 child rule. Properly oppose, unlike Scottish Labour.


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Scottish Labour do oppose it, they're just not allowed to say so until after the election.

[Glory Lurker]

Scottish Labour do oppose it, they're just not allowed to say so until after the election.

Incorrect. They won't be allowed to say it then, either. They don't really exist. I know we agree!

[archie]

The SNP actually oppose the 2 child rule. Properly oppose, unlike Scottish Labour.


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So why won't they scrap it?

[Ozyhibby]

So why won't they scrap it?

The SG mitigates the policy as much as possible but the money has to come from other budgets. It can’t scrap it because it’s reserved.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/926f29052398ef226226f7db1fa59824.jpg

Nothing on child poverty in first term of Labour govt. [emoji35]


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[archie]

The SG mitigates the policy as much as possible but the money has to come from other budgets. It can’t scrap it because it’s reserved.


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It can mitigate it. Not doing so is a political choice. There are two governments who can do something about it. Labour isn't any of them

[Ozyhibby]

It can mitigate it. Not doing so is a political choice. There are two governments who can do something about it. Labour isn't any of them

It does mitigate it.


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[archie]

It does mitigate it.


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They could make so it doesn't impact on people in Scotland.

[McD]

The more time that passes with starmer as the leader of the Labour Party, the more despondent I feel about politics, and will probably not bother even voting

[Ozyhibby]

They could make so it doesn't impact on people in Scotland.

That’s the best Scotland can hope for as part of the UK. Stripping money from other budgets to try stop children falling into poverty due to policies imposed from London. And now the Labour Party have joined in.


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[archie]

That’s the best Scotland can hope for as part of the UK. Stripping money from other budgets to try stop children falling into poverty due to policies imposed from London. And now the Labour Party have joined in.


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So a political choice.

[Pretty Boy]

The more time that passes with starmer as the leader of the Labour Party, the more despondent I feel about politics, and will probably not bother even voting

I'm the same. I was willing to hold my nose and vote Labour at the next GE but the more Starmer reveals of his plans the less I feel I can.

My seat will only be won by the SNP (still looking likely) or Labour (unlikely but more likely than last time) candidate anyway so with FPTP my vote will make no difference in regards to giving a Tory a seat anyway.

He's proving to be such a disappointment.

[Ozyhibby]

So a political choice.

And one you seem happy to support. Congrats.[emoji122]


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[archie]

And one you seem happy to support. Congrats.[emoji122]


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Not at all. But you seem to.

[Ozyhibby]

Not at all. But you seem to.

[emoji849]


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[Glory Lurker]

So why won't they scrap it?

We can't within the restrictions we work within. The Scottish parliament/government is just a manifestation of the UK state. Where the source of a policy is the UK it is really not likely any arm of it could stop it. Within what we are allowed we do what we can, but can only go so far as we're limited in our powers.

Starmer isn't.

You know this.

[Jack]

Not at all. But you seem to.

How would you rectify the situation?

[archie]

We can't within the restrictions we work within. The Scottish parliament/government is just a manifestation of the UK state. Where the source of a policy is the UK it is really not likely any arm of it could stop it. Within what we are allowed we do what we can, but can only go so far as we're limited in our powers.

Starmer isn't.

You know this.

Starmer has no governmental power.

[archie]

How would you rectify the situation?

Use the social security powers.

[SHODAN]

I was asking what alternatives to Labour you would recommend to those who can't manage another 5 years of ideologically driven austerity.

They can't keep forcing a choice between austerity and austerity-lite on people by shutting down any genuine alternative and except the populace to take it. I'm not playing that game any more.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I was asking what alternatives to Labour you would recommend to those who can't manage another 5 years of ideologically driven austerity.

They don't have any real alternative. That's the sad reality. The only party that can realistically replace the tories at Westminster are Labour. But Labour can only replace them these days if they commit to being as non-Labour as possible. Any Labour leader who wants to bring in an actual Labour Government is instantly hung by the press without trial.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Well the debate is that my view is that the Scottish Government could do it. You seem to be suggesting it's funding. Debate would be showing me where I'm wrong.

You're argument seems to be that even although the Scottish Government can't scrap it, they can mitigate it instead. Which you believe will benefit the Scottish people. Except of course, it won't. Because mitigation requires funding to be pulled from elsewhere, which will be harmful to Scottish people. The best possible scenario is for it to be scrapped altogether, but only the UK Government can do that and both parties are committed to maintaining it.

[neil7908]

I was asking what alternatives to Labour you would recommend to those who can't manage another 5 years of ideologically driven austerity.

Can you explain how ideologically driven austerity from the Tories is worse than the non ideologically driven austerity proposed by Labour?

Why vote for Labour when they'll will continue with 90% of the bad stuff the Tories are doing now, bin anyone in their own party who wants something else, talk about growth as if they are Liz Truss mark 2, won't even admit to the source of many of our economic problems (Brexit) and have a leader that is turning into as big a liar as Boris?

Given we are living in a democracy, I'd encourage people to vote for the party that best fits their political beliefs.

There is a very real scenario where Labour are denied a full majority and have to seek a coalition with the Lib Dems and SNP.

It would be a disaster if we turn into the US, with only two terrible parties to chose from. Labour could of course make a dramatic change to our system by bringing in PR, one that would massively increase the chances of getting left wing governments. But it would mean they would give up a bit of control and work with others. So of course that's out as well.

[Hibrandenburg]

They could make so it doesn't impact on people in Scotland.

So every time the Tories take a tenner out of the pockets of the poor adding to their pot, the Scottish Government have to give them a tenner depleting their pot.

How's that supposed to be sustainable?

[Jack]

Use the social security powers.

With money from where?

[HNA1]

This board improved markedly when we restricted it to PMs only.

Not solely because the worst offenders for dragging it downwards aren't PMs but because people actually seemed to heed the warning and show a bit more respect to each other and the forum in general. Sadly it hasn't lasted and we are back to the same old bickering and cheap shots at each other. Once again this board is taking up far too much of the admins time when really it is an optional extra. It's interesting to note that when usage of this board was restricted, traffic to the site went up by upwards of 30%, that suggests that far from being a draw, this board in reality has a detrimental impact on site usage.

We are at a point now where restricted usage again looks inevitable and if that doesn't have the desired effect then the Holy Ground will be gone for good. It's really up to you.

[archie]

Have I just stumbled into an audition for a reboot of Mean Girls? The passive aggression, snarky asides, oh so clever put downs (not really) and the repeated inability to focus on the point at hand.

On the two child cap, the Scottish Government could choose to mitigate it. It doesn't. There are legitimate questions about how they would fund it. But ultimately it's a political choice. Someone who is hurting because of the policy doesn't care if it is eased through mitigation or scrapping the policy.

So spare me the sanctimony - there are two governments who could address this. None of them are run by Labour.

[archie]

With money from where?

I don't deny that's a real issue. But it suggests something is given a higher political priority.

[Ozyhibby]

Have I just stumbled into an audition for a reboot of Mean Girls? The passive aggression, snarky asides, oh so clever put downs (not really) and the repeated inability to focus on the point at hand.

On the two child cap, the Scottish Government could choose to mitigate it. It doesn't. There are legitimate questions about how they would fund it. But ultimately it's a political choice. Someone who is hurting because of the policy doesn't care if it is eased through mitigation or scrapping the policy.

So spare me the sanctimony - there are two governments who could address this. None of them are run by Labour.

Except it does mitigate it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230718/72b55d24ec7e7991db63132a75b55d7f.png

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/25/sunak-urged-to-drop-unspeakably-cruel-two-child-limit-and-benefit-cap

Add the Scottish child payment and I think it’s clear who you should vote for if you want to reduce child poverty in Scotland.

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[archie]

Except it does mitigate it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230718/72b55d24ec7e7991db63132a75b55d7f.png

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/25/sunak-urged-to-drop-unspeakably-cruel-two-child-limit-and-benefit-cap

Add the Scottish child payment and I think it’s clear who you should vote for if you want to reduce child poverty in Scotland.

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So why is the SNP arguing that households aren't getting funding because of the two child cap? https://www.snp.org/the-rape-clause-explained-in-350-words/

[Ozyhibby]

Now blocked. Not interested in arguing black is white.


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[grunt]

So why is the SNP arguing that households aren't getting funding because of the two child cap? https://www.snp.org/the-rape-clause-explained-in-350-words/
Look up mitigate in the dictionary?

[archie]

Look up mitigate in the dictionary?

But they aren't arguing that they are mitigating- they are saying households are being deprived of income.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230718/fd98c9ae00f56d6a6720d4ff1cb45067.jpg
Shameless.


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[archie]

Now blocked. Not interested in arguing black is white.


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All you have to do is show me where I'm wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

But they aren't arguing that they are mitigating- they are saying households are being deprived of income.

So you think an overarching UK administration should devote time and resources to depriving these families of money and also a regional administration should then devote time and resources to mitigating the deprivation of the same people. And this is a smooth running, functional system? :confused:

[archie]

Look up mitigate in the dictionary?

As an aside, you've stumbled on a really important point here. What does 'mitigate' mean in this context? I suspect it's one of those words that all politicians love, because it conveys a meaning without being over specific about what it means. A bit like fairness. The obvious question here is to what extent does it mitigate the impact of the two child cap. That's not at all clear.

[archie]

So you think an overarching UK administration should devote time and resources to depriving these families of money and also a regional administration should then devote time and resources to mitigating the deprivation of the same people. And this is a smooth running, functional system? :confused:

That's a very managerial response. Personally I don't agree with the two child cap. The UK Government, wrongly in my view, has chosen to impose it. I think it's either a point of principle or it isn't. So it's legitimate for the Scottish Government to address it. Isn't that why they sought social security powers?

[Hibbyradge]

The SNP actually oppose the 2 child rule. Properly oppose, unlike Scottish Labour.


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I live in York. I can't vote for the SNP.

[Hibbyradge]

They don't have any real alternative. That's the sad reality. The only party that can realistically replace the tories at Westminster are Labour. But Labour can only replace them these days if they commit to being as non-Labour as possible. Any Labour leader who wants to bring in an actual Labour Government is instantly hung by the press without trial.

Exactly what the article I linked said.

The time to judge Labour is when they're in power and can actually do something.

[neil7908]

Exactly what the article I linked said.

The time to judge Labour is when they're in power and can actually do something.

Why would a socialist who wants to eradicate child poverty lend their vote to a party that explicity ruled out a key measure to prevent this? And for a 5 year term!

I'm sorry but this 'trust us, we'll do the right thing when in power' bit is mental. I vote for a party based on what they tell me they are going to do. Every time Starmer speaks he pushed me further away.

I've said this before but I'll say it again - when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[Ozyhibby]

Exactly what the article I linked said.

The time to judge Labour is when they're in power and can actually do something.

People like to make a judgement before they vote. I think if I was in England I’d stay home.


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[Ozyhibby]

Why would a socialist who wants to eradicate child poverty lend their vote to a party that explicity ruled out a key measure to prevent this? And for a 5 year term!

I'm sorry but this 'trust us, we'll do the right thing when in power' bit is mental. I vote for a party based on what they tell me they are going to do. Every time Starmer speaks he pushed me further away.

I've said this before but I'll say it again - when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Labour policy in Scotland is that the SNP should mitigate what Labour will do when in power in Westminster.
Labour policy in England is to do the same as the Tories but they’ll feel bad about it.


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[WeeRussell]

I live in York. I can't vote for the SNP.

Bloody romans.

[Hiber-nation]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230718/fd98c9ae00f56d6a6720d4ff1cb45067.jpg
Shameless.


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"Dame" Jackie took ineptitude to new levels when she was shadow Economy Minister. Incredible to see her making an even bigger fool of herself.

[Moulin Yarns]

But they aren't arguing that they are mitigating- they are saying households are being deprived of income.

The two-child limit prevents parents from claiming child tax credit or universal credit for any third or subsequent child born after April 2017.

Both benefits are uk government policies which the Scottish Government can't change, they have to find other ways (mitigate) to help families.

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/B8SdKnWnwHY

Absolute car crash from Baillie this morning.

Vote Labour to stop Labour.
That’s some campaign slogan.[emoji102]


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[degenerated]

https://youtu.be/B8SdKnWnwHY

Absolute car crash from Baillie this morning.

Vote Labour to stop Labour.
That’s some campaign slogan.[emoji102]


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Baillie has long been a master of car crash interviews, this one from when she tried to defend Wendy Alexander all those years back still humours me

https://youtu.be/uNsta_z6Q_w

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66232161

I like how the BBC are quick to point out the Labour Scottish Branch's pretendy opposition (with permission from head office) to the 2 child benefit cap. As if it's even relevant. They'll be dragging out Gordon Brown next with a big speech on how things can be done differently, while ultimately having no power to do anything differently.

[WeeRussell]

https://youtu.be/B8SdKnWnwHY

Absolute car crash from Baillie this morning.

Vote Labour to stop Labour.
That’s some campaign slogan.[emoji102]


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Getting a little embarrassing on ‘politics live’ at lunchtime today too, regarding Starmer/labour’s stance on the 2 child benefit cap.

[DaveF]

Has Jonathan Ashworth said anything yet? Or been sacked?

[Ozyhibby]

Has Jonathan Ashworth said anything yet? Or been sacked?

‘Our own policy is heinous’ is a difficult sell.


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[McD]

I'm the same. I was willing to hold my nose and vote Labour at the next GE but the more Starmer reveals of his plans the less I feel I can.

My seat will only be won by the SNP (still looking likely) or Labour (unlikely but more likely than last time) candidate anyway so with FPTP my vote will make no difference in regards to giving a Tory a seat anyway.

He's proving to be such a disappointment.


pretty much my exact thoughts mate

[cabbageandribs1875]

yes SIR keef

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348595790_661032949398697_2337575769478784329_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_NZ9KL_4k3kAX-u2Thz&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCFaojvPnhZUH1u5iZGLggwHYMrURVu5w0Q2ekqYHPQ-A&oe=64BB492C

[TrumpIsAPeado]

yes SIR keef

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348595790_661032949398697_2337575769478784329_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_NZ9KL_4k3kAX-u2Thz&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCFaojvPnhZUH1u5iZGLggwHYMrURVu5w0Q2ekqYHPQ-A&oe=64BB492C

Looking forward to Sarwar and Baillie speaking to the press with a sudden change of heart.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Looking forward to Sarwar and Baillie speaking to the press with a sudden change of heart.


whoooaaa there, in the same sentence ? :lips seal


and Sarwar would get on bended knee and hand Scotland to Starmer, he wants that ermine

[cabbageandribs1875]

aye RIGHT :greengrin

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/349953447_3570505096603383_4906801525055802576_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=o1MRiY6MbLkAX9y6vLU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDNW3NxrowSrQMEjCm0REJCRgIJanT4NwlfFqvEL-Ascw&oe=64BB1915

[grunt]

yes SIR keef

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348595790_661032949398697_2337575769478784329_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_NZ9KL_4k3kAX-u2Thz&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCFaojvPnhZUH1u5iZGLggwHYMrURVu5w0Q2ekqYHPQ-A&oe=64BB492C

This is a satirical account. Hard to tell, I know.

[cabbageandribs1875]

This is a satirical account. Hard to tell, I know.


AI is going to get very scary, for all

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-why-ai-may-be-extremely-dangerous-whether-its-conscious-or-not/

“The idea that this stuff could actually get smarter than people.... I thought it was way off…. Obviously, I no longer think that,” Geoffrey Hinton, one of Google's top artificial intelligence scientists, also known as “the godfather of AI (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/01/technology/ai-google-chatbot-engineer-quits-hinton.html),” said after he quit his job in April so that he can warn about the dangers of this technology (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-is-getting-powerful-but-can-researchers-make-it-principled/).

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/two-child-benefit-cap-affects-more-than-80000-children-in-scotland-study-shows


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[degenerated]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/two-child-benefit-cap-affects-more-than-80000-children-in-scotland-study-shows


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBBC news mentioned it but sandwiched it between reinforcing the fact that Scottish Labour really oppose the cap and claims from scottish labour that the report is merely a distraction by the SNP because of their failings on child poverty.

[Ozyhibby]

BBC news mentioned it but sandwiched it between reinforcing the fact that Scottish Labour really oppose the cap and claims from scottish labour that the report is merely a distraction by the SNP because of their failings on child poverty.

At least they mentioned it. The avoided the story for two days until finally covering it yesterday. Thankfully STV and Sky covered it or Scottish viewers would never know it was happening.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/graemedemianyk/status/1681360712541536256?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Starmer having a good giggle about keeping kids in poverty. Nice man.


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[Smartie]

Labour are obviously going after Tory voters rather than SNP voters or Scottish voters in general with their policies. Fair enough, you might say, as they are greater in number.

Obviously that will be a disappointment to Scots who might have been looking for a reason to change to them but it might be bitterly disappointing to Scottish Labour unionists.

He needs to be careful. You can wander too far off course in trying to appeal to the other side that you lose your own, or ignore some of the lower hanging fruit that exists on the way over there.

[Hiber-nation]

Labour are obviously going after Tory voters rather than SNP voters or Scottish voters in general with their policies. Fair enough, you might say, as they are greater in number.

Obviously that will be a disappointment to Scots who might have been looking for a reason to change to them but it might be bitterly disappointing to Scottish Labour unionists.

He needs to be careful. You can wander too far off course in trying to appeal to the other side that you lose your own, or ignore some of the lower hanging fruit that exists on the way over there.

"Scotland will need to wait". That's what a Labour party rep I got talking to in the pub told me when I was down in Yorkshire last year. Red wall is their 1st priority. All they've been doing in Scotland is hoping for an SNP implosion.

[WeeRussell]

"Scotland will need to wait". That's what a Labour party rep I got talking to in the pub told me.

What a surprise!

[WeeRussell]

Political differences aside, I hope everything is okay with Mibbes Aye. He’d been a very prominent poster on these threads until very recently.

I trust just a holiday or some time out!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230719/a396d3e44e02fc433ccc48badfa9bb35.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

Lee Anderson praising Starmer on Labour’s two child policy at PMQ’s.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://twitter.com/graemedemianyk/status/1681360712541536256?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Starmer having a good giggle about keeping kids in poverty. Nice man.


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If these were 2 regular members of society locked up in an asylum, you would just assume that they were sociopaths.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

"Scotland will need to wait". That's what a Labour party rep I got talking to in the pub told me when I was down in Yorkshire last year. Red wall is their 1st priority. All they've been doing in Scotland is hoping for an SNP implosion.

They don't need the SNP to implode. They know they can forcefully lock Scotland into the UK forever, regardless of how we vote up here. So there's no incentive to show the Scottish electorate a shred of respect.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230719/d227446311d2a5780d80e088fa261f24.jpg
Puts Labours policy in perspective.


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[Ozyhibby]

Ian Murray now in favour of two child cap.


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[grunt]

Ian Murray now in favour of two child cap.
I thought he didn't look very well.

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder if the Tories now wrong foot Labour and scrap the two child cap at autumn statement?


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[neil7908]

I wonder if the Tories now wrong foot Labour and scrap the two child cap at autumn statement?


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If the economy shows some signs of progress in the next 6 months I could see them pulling that move.

A party with a shred of dignity couldn't pull it off. But these guys? I'm sure they can find a reason why it was the right policy for years, whilst also the wrong one for right now.

[Stairway 2 7]

Only 20% of brits are against the two child limit shockingly, it'll stay (30% of Scots but only 4100 polled)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/11/fa421/1

[Ozyhibby]

Only 20% of brits are against the two child limit shockingly, it'll stay (30% of Scots but only 4100 polled)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/11/fa421/1

The most shocking thing is that we don’t know what’s good for us. There should be a tax benefit for having more kids. Scotlands demographics are horrific and we are looking at permenant decline in our living standards unless we start having more kids or massively increase immigration.
This policy is intended to do the exact opposite.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The most shocking thing is that we don’t know what’s good for us. There should be a tax benefit for having more kids. Scotlands demographics are horrific and we are looking at permenant decline in our living standards unless we start having more kids or massively increase immigration.
This policy is intended to do the exact opposite.


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Yep I was thinking that during the week. We need cheaper childcare, benefits for more kids, lots of immigration.

[SHODAN]

I wonder if the Tories now wrong foot Labour and scrap the two child cap at autumn statement?


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That would be really funny.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Starmer knows ‘Make Brexit work’ is a lie - The New European (https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/starmer-knows-make-brexit-work-is-a-lie/?fbclid=IwAR3THIqHWbJOHsliCOR7wzQk8lGaXB5q2D8dLOQ8 Q5SRvs4P51YZ_2UDfo4)

With the end of the Erasmus student exchange scheme comes poorer education opportunities, especially for children in poorer families – a generation that was simply too young to even get a say in whether we left the EU or not. Mental health is affecting this generation like never before, all while knowing they will be the first generation to earn less than their parents did.
Erasmus was one way for young people to enhance their education and escape this. If Starmer’s children come home from school and tell him that they’re one of the 86% of under 25s who would like to Rejoin the EU, would he tell them: “Make Brexit work”?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I wonder if the Tories now wrong foot Labour and scrap the two child cap at autumn statement?


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Not a chance will they do this. Labour would just claim that it was their master plan all along to get the tories to do this and that they "really" supported scrapping it the whole time.

The reality is, both right-wing parties believe children should suffer for the crime of being born poor.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1681950543860625408?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

What exactly is Scottish Labour’s policy on council tax?
The SNP council tax freeze is regularly criticised on here but here they are also criticising a council tax rise? They seem a bit confused?


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[Since90+2]

Not a chance will they do this. Labour would just claim that it was their master plan all along to get the tories to do this and that they "really" supported scrapping it the whole time.

The reality is, both right-wing parties believe children should suffer for the crime of being born poor.

How could Labour possibly claim it was their plan all along? Their Leader came out on national Television and categorically claimed they would not scrap it.

They'd be make to look ridiculous if they claimed that.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

How could Labour possibly claim it was their plan all along? Their Leader came out on national Television and categorically claimed they would not scrap it.

They'd be make to look ridiculous if they claimed that.

They already look ridiculous anyway and think the electorate are thick. If the tories were to suddenly scrap the policy (they won't), Labour would have to come up with some guff to try and make themselves appear to be the reason why the tories did it.

[Since90+2]

They already look ridiculous anyway and think the electorate are thick. If the tories were to suddenly scrap the policy (they won't), Labour would have to come up with some guff to try and make themselves appear to be the reason why the tories did it.

That's a bit far fetched IMO.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That's a bit far fetched IMO.

Labour flat out refusing to abolish (or even tweak) the 2 child policy would have seemed far fetched to many just a few days ago. A whole lot of far fetched things occur in politics these days.

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1681950543860625408?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

What exactly is Scottish Labour’s policy on council tax?
The SNP council tax freeze is regularly criticised on here but here they are also criticising a council tax rise? They seem a bit confused?


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Labour are the party of lower taxation. We must focus on growth!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7i_iwQI2yY

[DaveF]

Labour overturn a 20k Tory majority to win one of the by election seats last night but fail to take Johnson's old seat. Lib Dems take the other one from the Tories.

[Stairway 2 7]

Biggest tory majority ever won for Labour beating Portillo's 16,000 defeat. Lib dems biggest swing ever too.

Tories hang on in Uxbridge by 600 from over 7000. It was pretty much won due to the low emissions zone argument. 90% of the campaigning was the tories fighting the ULEZ expanding to Uxbridge. The MPs acceptance speech he says Labour can thank Sadiq Khan for loosing the seat, trying to build tensions

[Jones28]

I’m still a bit staggered that the tories held Uxbridge, even with the ULEZ argument. Still, a 7000 majority being reduced to 700 is not the worst outcome.

If this kind of result is mirrored in the general election will it be the worst result for a political party ever?

[Stairway 2 7]

Very good analysis from Lewis Goodall I'll paste the thread

@lewis_goodall

WHAT HAPPENED IF YOU'RE WAKING UP 🧵

Labour GAIN Selby and Ainsty in record win against Tories, 24% swing (maj. 4161)

Lib Dems GAIN Somerton and Frome (maj. 29% swing (maj. 11,008)

Conservatives HOLD Uxbridge and South Ruislip 6.7% swing (maj. 495)
On the face of it, those results provide something for everyone, every party won a contest. The Uxbridge result provides some much needed cover for Rishi Sunak and No.10

But that would be the wrong way to look at it. These are appallingly bad results for the Conservatives.

The Selby and Somerton results are the important ones, in terms of looking ahead to a general election.

The Selby result is nothing short of sensational. This was one of the safest Tory seats in the country. It had a 20,000 Con majority.

It's been won on a 24 point swing...
...that's far in excess of what's needed for Labour to win a majority across the country (10 point swing), let alone become the biggest party (a 7 point swing).

The Conservative won this seat with 60% of the vote in 2019. That's collapsed by nearly half.
The Selby result is the second worst result against Labour in a by-election in history.

Moreover, it's the sort of seat where this result would have seemed utterly incredible a few years ago. Northern, rural, older population, v white, affluentish and deeply leave.
Labour doesn't need to win Selby to win a majority. The Tories have a good chance of winning it back at a general election. But the fact it was won last night and won comfortably for Labour will send shivers down the necks of scores and scores of Tory MPs.

One wrinkle for Labour- huge numbers of Tories stayed at home. Question obviously is whether they might turn out when the general election comes rather than complete the switch to Lab. Reminder that there is a big gap in the political marketplace for the disillusioned right.
Somerton will be in danger of being overlooked. It shouldn't be. It caps off yet more remarkable Lib Dem success in the south of England, and this time back in their old south west heartlands. It was ANOTHER near record Lib Dem swing- 29%. Sixth best ever for the party.
This reaffirms a couple of things. The Lib Dems have returned to their status as by election winning machines. They've now won 4 this parliament, each with enormous swings off the Tories, each in rural or semi-rural seats across the south and midlands.
Both results also reaffirm that Brexit as a massively salient issue over British politics has diminished substantially, at least in leave areas. This would have seemed very far fetched as recently as a couple of years ago.

Again, there will be plenty of southern Tory MPs...

very concerned about this result. Indeed, to take the Labour and Lib Dem results together, this picture is redolent of the mid to late 1990s and the run up to 97. Widespread disillusionment, efficient tactical voting to get the Tory out constituency by constituency,
Uxbridge will receive understandable attention, but it doesn't tell us very much about the country and the general election (though it could tell us something about the long term tenor of politics).

The Tories just about held on here. It's clear, this was easily the most...
...local contest of the three and was driven largely by ULEZ, something the winning Conservative candidate himself referred to in his victory speech. Labour were in a curious quasi-incumbent position here, with voters sending a message not to Sunak but Khan.

There are a clutch of outer London seats Labour would hope to win at a general election where ULEZ could hurt their chances. So this isn't insignificant. But (a) Labour is already so dominant in London it isn't massive (b) it isn't clear ULEZ will be so germane in a gen elex...
and (c) Londoners will have a chance to vote in a mayoral election, almost certainly before the general.

It's also worth saying that there was still a significant swing to Labour in the seat- 6.7%, that itself while massively underperforming national polls, would be nearly...
...enough to make it the largest party. In short, it's clear ULEZ massively distorted the result.

But though it's probably not v important apropos the general election, I suspect it will have an effect. It will reaffirm to Labour nationally the importance of caution...

with regards to policy formation (their lesson will be to have even less of it) and I suspect it will embolden those arguing the party has to tread carefully with regards to environmental policies.

Indeed, the Uxbridge result could be a little taste of the politics of...
...the second half of the next decade. A Labour government pushing hard on net zero and wider environmental policies. A shattered Tory party finding something around which to cohere by opposing them. It would mirror developments on the right elsewhere in the world.
One person who should have pause about Uxbridge result is Boris Johnson. Who knows, if he hadn't been so frit, he may have won!

In sum, Sunak will get cover from Uxbridge. He avoids fate of first PM since 1968 to lose 3 by elections at once. But it should be little comfort.

[Ozyhibby]

Very good analysis from Lewis Goodall I'll paste the thread

@lewis_goodall

WHAT HAPPENED IF YOU'RE WAKING UP [emoji3468]

Labour GAIN Selby and Ainsty in record win against Tories, 24% swing (maj. 4161)

Lib Dems GAIN Somerton and Frome (maj. 29% swing (maj. 11,008)

Conservatives HOLD Uxbridge and South Ruislip 6.7% swing (maj. 495)
On the face of it, those results provide something for everyone, every party won a contest. The Uxbridge result provides some much needed cover for Rishi Sunak and No.10

But that would be the wrong way to look at it. These are appallingly bad results for the Conservatives.

The Selby and Somerton results are the important ones, in terms of looking ahead to a general election.

The Selby result is nothing short of sensational. This was one of the safest Tory seats in the country. It had a 20,000 Con majority.

It's been won on a 24 point swing...
...that's far in excess of what's needed for Labour to win a majority across the country (10 point swing), let alone become the biggest party (a 7 point swing).

The Conservative won this seat with 60% of the vote in 2019. That's collapsed by nearly half.
The Selby result is the second worst result against Labour in a by-election in history.

Moreover, it's the sort of seat where this result would have seemed utterly incredible a few years ago. Northern, rural, older population, v white, affluentish and deeply leave.
Labour doesn't need to win Selby to win a majority. The Tories have a good chance of winning it back at a general election. But the fact it was won last night and won comfortably for Labour will send shivers down the necks of scores and scores of Tory MPs.

One wrinkle for Labour- huge numbers of Tories stayed at home. Question obviously is whether they might turn out when the general election comes rather than complete the switch to Lab. Reminder that there is a big gap in the political marketplace for the disillusioned right.
Somerton will be in danger of being overlooked. It shouldn't be. It caps off yet more remarkable Lib Dem success in the south of England, and this time back in their old south west heartlands. It was ANOTHER near record Lib Dem swing- 29%. Sixth best ever for the party.
This reaffirms a couple of things. The Lib Dems have returned to their status as by election winning machines. They've now won 4 this parliament, each with enormous swings off the Tories, each in rural or semi-rural seats across the south and midlands.
Both results also reaffirm that Brexit as a massively salient issue over British politics has diminished substantially, at least in leave areas. This would have seemed very far fetched as recently as a couple of years ago.

Again, there will be plenty of southern Tory MPs...

very concerned about this result. Indeed, to take the Labour and Lib Dem results together, this picture is redolent of the mid to late 1990s and the run up to 97. Widespread disillusionment, efficient tactical voting to get the Tory out constituency by constituency,
Uxbridge will receive understandable attention, but it doesn't tell us very much about the country and the general election (though it could tell us something about the long term tenor of politics).

The Tories just about held on here. It's clear, this was easily the most...
...local contest of the three and was driven largely by ULEZ, something the winning Conservative candidate himself referred to in his victory speech. Labour were in a curious quasi-incumbent position here, with voters sending a message not to Sunak but Khan.

There are a clutch of outer London seats Labour would hope to win at a general election where ULEZ could hurt their chances. So this isn't insignificant. But (a) Labour is already so dominant in London it isn't massive (b) it isn't clear ULEZ will be so germane in a gen elex...
and (c) Londoners will have a chance to vote in a mayoral election, almost certainly before the general.

It's also worth saying that there was still a significant swing to Labour in the seat- 6.7%, that itself while massively underperforming national polls, would be nearly...
...enough to make it the largest party. In short, it's clear ULEZ massively distorted the result.

But though it's probably not v important apropos the general election, I suspect it will have an effect. It will reaffirm to Labour nationally the importance of caution...

with regards to policy formation (their lesson will be to have even less of it) and I suspect it will embolden those arguing the party has to tread carefully with regards to environmental policies.

Indeed, the Uxbridge result could be a little taste of the politics of...
...the second half of the next decade. A Labour government pushing hard on net zero and wider environmental policies. A shattered Tory party finding something around which to cohere by opposing them. It would mirror developments on the right elsewhere in the world.
One person who should have pause about Uxbridge result is Boris Johnson. Who knows, if he hadn't been so frit, he may have won!

In sum, Sunak will get cover from Uxbridge. He avoids fate of first PM since 1968 to lose 3 by elections at once. But it should be little comfort.

That’s a fair analysis. I can definitely see the Tories become an anti environmentalist party as we head towards net zero.


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[Jack]

I was saying to my mates in the pub last night that, given their previous voting record, the idiots of Uxbridge & Ruislip should be denied the vote.

There must be something in their, probably contaminated, water!

[Rumble de Thump]

Political commentators are saying that people in Uxbridge voted for the Tories because of Labour's ULEZ: Boris Johnson announces plans for Ultra Low Emission Zone (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21443439)

[Kato]

I was saying to my mates in the pub last night that, given their previous voting record, the idiots of Uxbridge & Ruislip should be denied the vote.

There must be something in their, probably contaminated, water!Malevolent or just plain thick. Has to be one of the two.

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[grunt]

Political commentators are saying that people in Uxbridge voted for the Tories because of Labour's ULEZ: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21443439
"Labour's ULEZ". Yet media seems to ignore that it was the Tory Govt that made funding for TFL dependent on expansion of ULEZ. So Khan is doing what he had to into order to obtain Govt funding for TFL. The lying Tory party lying again.

Plus, of course, it's the right thing to do.

[Ozyhibby]

"Labour's ULEZ". Yet media seems to ignore that it was the Tory Govt that made funding for TFL dependent on expansion of ULEZ. So Khan is doing what he had to into order to obtain Govt funding for TFL. The lying Tory party lying again.

Plus, of course, it's the right thing to do.

Doesn’t matter to them, I think they will turn into the anti green movement. I see Fraser Nelson in the telegraph saying all this warming is great for us.


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[Jones28]

Irvine Welsh kens

https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/1682292720889413633?s=20

[Stairway 2 7]

Doesn’t matter to them, I think they will turn into the anti green movement. I see Fraser Nelson in the telegraph saying all this warming is great for us.


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I never bothered reading it he says there is 9 times the people die of cold than the heat even in Africa. So warming is good as it will save lives. I think scientists mostly say that it only true for a little while until there is a crossover. There's other issues like famine and lack of water he ignores. Guardian article talking about it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/extreme-temperatures-kill-5-million-people-a-year-with-heat-related-deaths-rising-study-finds

[Pretty Boy]

All the criticism of the Labour candidate in Selby because of where he went to university is really getting on my nerves, from self professed lefties as well as the usual right wing mouthpieces.

The guy went to a comprehensive school in Hull and then went to Oxford. Is the criticism that he should have turned down the opportunity to attend Oxford? Should people who go to comp schools 'know their place'? I understand that pish coming from the pull up the drawbridge brigade but it's just reinforcing elitism when people on the left decry a guy from a state comprehensive for attaining a high level of education. He should be being praised, not torn down as some kind of class traitor.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interestingly if green voters voted Labour they probably would have got a low emissions zone in Uxbridge.

I'm fortunate my vote can count for snp. But if it was a clear tight 2 horse race between the tories and someone else I'd be a clown not to vote for them, I'd even vote lib dem who I'm not a fan of

[grunt]

Interestingly if green voters voted Labour they probably would have got a low emissions zone in Uxbridge.
They're still going to get a low emission zone in Uxbridge? The vote yesterday didn't stop it happening, it was a protest vote.

[Stairway 2 7]

All the criticism of the Labour candidate in Selby because of where he went to university is really getting on my nerves, from self professed lefties as well as the usual right wing mouthpieces.

The guy went to a comprehensive school in Hull and then went to Oxford. Is the criticism that he should have turned down the opportunity to attend Oxford? Should people who go to comp schools 'know their place'? I understand that pish coming from the pull up the drawbridge brigade but it's just reinforcing elitism when people on the left decry a guy from a state comprehensive for attaining a high level of education. He should be being praised, not torn down as some kind of class traitor.

It shatters everything if working class people can study hard and go to oxbridge and make it from that, should be saved for the chosen ones.

SNP making % of students for each course come from certain backgrounds (parents with no degree, immigrants, young carers, deprived areas ect) is an excellent move. At least up here things should change up here, lawyer's and doctors from Niddry or Wester Hails being common and not unusual will benefit everybody

[Stairway 2 7]

They're still going to get a low emission zone in Uxbridge? The vote yesterday didn't stop it happening, it was a protest vote.

Didn't realise this it was in the I paper about the greens, very pointless for the tories then. I read it was Grant Schapps that forced the Ulez in the first place

[Stairway 2 7]

Starmer saying they need a rethink. It's a shame being green is going to be politicised, they need to grow up and get some cross party plans, will obviously never happen

“There’s no denying that Ulez was the reason we didn’t win in Uxbridge, and we all need to reflect on that, and the mayor needs to reflect on that.”

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer saying they need a rethink. It's a shame being green is going to be politicised, they need to grow up and get some cross party plans, will obviously never happen

“There’s no denying that Ulez was the reason we didn’t win in Uxbridge, and we all need to reflect on that, and the mayor needs to reflect on that.”

Did Starmer say that? Surely not? Is there any principle he holds dear? He is showing dangerous populist tendencies. How about showing some back bone and actually persuading people rather than following the mob?


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[grunt]

Did Starmer say that? Surely not? Is there any principle he holds dear? He is showing dangerous populist tendencies. How about showing some back bone and actually persuading people rather than following the mob?You'd think Starmer would have a sore arse from all the fence sitting he's doing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66124191

[lapsedhibee]

“There’s no denying that Ulez was the reason we didn’t win in Uxbridge, and we all need to reflect on that, and the mayor needs to reflect on that.”

Next: "green crap".

[Ozyhibby]

All the criticism of the Labour candidate in Selby because of where he went to university is really getting on my nerves, from self professed lefties as well as the usual right wing mouthpieces.

The guy went to a comprehensive school in Hull and then went to Oxford. Is the criticism that he should have turned down the opportunity to attend Oxford? Should people who go to comp schools 'know their place'? I understand that pish coming from the pull up the drawbridge brigade but it's just reinforcing elitism when people on the left decry a guy from a state comprehensive for attaining a high level of education. He should be being praised, not torn down as some kind of class traitor.

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1682378643014668289?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1682378643014668289?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Should just let lbc take over bbc the output is good and fair which would be some departure

[Ozyhibby]

Should just let lbc take over bbc the output is good and fair which would be some departure

Streets ahead of the BBC.


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[Jones28]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcR2AdoOv7Y

I feel sorry for the residents of Uxbridge who aren't brain-dead idiots who'd actively go out and vote for someone who has repeatedly lied to the people and to parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1682512010079006727?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Starmer is willing to just go full Tory if that’s what it takes for power.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1681904777804775425?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Two tier health service anyone?


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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1681904777804775425?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Two tier health service anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWouldn't be surprised. How much have starmer and streeting trousered from private healthcare businesses ?

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1681904777804775425?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Two tier health service anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt has always been there.

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[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1681904777804775425?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Two tier health service anyone?


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How much is "not a lot of money" for millionaire Blair?

And no doubt him and his rich pals get seen within 45 minutes.

[Stairway 2 7]

We're not full blown like most of Europe, but aren't we two tier just now anyway with bupa ect

[Kato]

We're not full blown like most of Europe, but aren't we two tier just now anyway with bupa ectSince the inception of the NHS there have always been private doctors and private dentists.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1682821112571338752?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Can’t say they don’t deserve it when he is publicly saying they don’t want any policies that could upset the Tories.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230722/923bed459976cd41ffcdb92ad0939b79.jpg
And this is a cracking front page.

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[Jack]

Since the inception of the NHS there have always been private doctors and private dentists.

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There's always been private healthcare, at every level.

But since the inception of the NHS there's also been the reasonable expectation that a healthcare system free at the point of contact has been available for everyone. And that healthcare system worked at least reasonably well ... until the torys got a hold of it.

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1682821112571338752?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Can’t say they don’t deserve it when he is publicly saying they don’t want any policies that could upset the Tories.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230722/923bed459976cd41ffcdb92ad0939b79.jpg
And this is a cracking front page.

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The National is looking more and more like the Nationalist version of the Daily Express.

[Hibrandenburg]

The National is looking more and more like the Nationalist version of the Daily Express.

That's poor, this is better.

[Jack]

The National is looking more and more like the Nationalist version of the Daily Express.

How many people see beyond the front page?

It's not the best but I reckon it'll be a long time before it's as bad as the unionists rags.

I suspect the owners of the National actually live here (never checked) rather than getting their minions to snipe on orders from thier overseas tax havens.

[archie]

How many people see beyond the front page?

It's not the best but I reckon it'll be a long time before it's as bad as the unionists rags.

I suspect the owners of the National actually live here (never checked) rather than getting their minions to snipe on orders from thier overseas tax havens.

It's owned by Newsquest which is in turn owned by US company Gannet.

[Jack]

It's owned by Newsquest which is in turn owned by US company Gannet.

Not quite the same as the megalomaniacs that own the express and mail.

[Mr Grieves]

The National is looking more and more like the Nationalist version of the Daily Express.

Not a fan of the national, or any paper for that matter, but are they wrong here?

[degenerated]

Starmer upsetting the unions now

https://skwawkbox.org/2023/07/22/starmer-breaks-promise-to-repeal-anti-worker-laws-a-week-after-making-it-triggering-union-walk-out/

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer upsetting the unions now

https://skwawkbox.org/2023/07/22/starmer-breaks-promise-to-repeal-anti-worker-laws-a-week-after-making-it-triggering-union-walk-out/

This carries on much longer and I can see this being a very low turn out election.


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[Hibrandenburg]

This carries on much longer and I can see this being a very low turn out election.


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Labour are in danger of winning the swing voters and losing their core vote if he continues like this.

[Stairway 2 7]

Polls are staying strong for Labour and Starmers approval rating is growing. Its abhorrent politics to me but they know what they are doing. This forum isn't anything close to the general publics opinion. The large poll I put only 20% wanted the 2 child cap scrapped horribly.

I was on here getting ripped for backing Corbyn who was miles to the left of Starmer and the SNP. Everyone said he was pointless as the left will never get voted in. Labour has sadly moved right and is doing what will get them in, what was recommended on here.

More reason for independence I suppose. But I'd put money on Starmers Labour taking seats of the SNP so I don't know what that says

[Ozyhibby]

Polls are staying strong for Labour and Starmers approval rating is growing. Its abhorrent politics to me but they know what they are doing. This forum isn't anything close to the general publics opinion. The large poll I put only 20% wanted the 2 child cap scrapped horribly.

I was on here getting ripped for backing Corbyn who was miles to the left of Starmer and the SNP. Everyone said he was pointless as the left will never get voted in. Labour has sadly moved right and is doing what will get them in, what was recommended on here.

More reason for independence I suppose. But I'd put money on Starmers Labour taking seats of the SNP so I don't know what that says

Labour will def take seats of the SNP just because the SNP result in 2019 was so good it would be very difficult to match. I don’t think they have a chance of overtaking the SNP though. Will be interesting to see how much they send Starmer up here?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Labour will def take seats of the SNP just because the SNP result in 2019 was so good it would be very difficult to match. I don’t think they have a chance of overtaking the SNP though. Will be interesting to see how much they send Starmer up here?


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There's a difference from taking a seat or two due to previous good results and say losing a quarter. Labour overtaking would be an unbelievable collapse that I can't see.

[grunt]

But I'd put money on Starmers Labour taking seats of the SNP so I don't know what that says
It says that the continual relentless attacks on the SG and the SNP by the Unionist media are effective.

[Stairway 2 7]

It says that the continual relentless attacks on the SG and the SNP by the Unionist media are effective.

The attacks have been the same for 12 years. SNP grew from strength to strength. It also doesn't make sense I don't think as support for independence pretty steady. It's a sudden collapse from December when SNP went less for independence and pushed wedge issues.

It's hard for the snp they are also very much the establishment now in Scotland and incumbent parties in a rescission usually suffer

[cabbageandribs1875]

Trafalgar Street near Brighton Station :hilarious

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/363286194_10161306630769047_3636065307508209157_n. jpg?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=QviprMxUw2UAX_o1BkE&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfA_HwhRIuFRtxyK_UmQLEsbpEQtxQV-hM5fFWKN_1uo2g&oe=64C3AF72

[JeMeSouviens]

It's owned by Newsquest which is in turn owned by US company Gannet.

They own the Unionist Herald as well. Riding both horses.

[Kato]

They own the Unionist Herald as well. Riding both horses.It's a gap in the market. A bit shrill for my taste.

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[JeMeSouviens]

There's a difference from taking a seat or two due to previous good results and say losing a quarter. Labour overtaking would be an unbelievable collapse that I can't see.

There are a lot of SNP/Lab contests that, just as in 2015, when the tipping point is reached will all topple together.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's a gap in the market. A bit shrill for my taste.

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Not my cup of tea either. It's relentlessly one note. There's still a gap for a rounded, balanced newspaper that leans indy, imo.

[Keith_M]

Not my cup of tea either. It's relentlessly one note. There's still a gap for a rounded, balanced newspaper that leans indy, imo.


Sadly, there is no such thing as a balanced newspaper when it comes to Scottish Politics.

All but one are anti-SNP (though at different levels of animosity), then there's the National, which IMO leans too much in the other direction.

Weirdly, though, the Daily Record and the Herald have swapped places recently, with the Herald coming across at almost Daily Mail levels of anti-SNP, but the Record slightly more balanced than it used to be.




p.s. Apologies, this is probably the wrong thread for that subject :)

[Ozyhibby]

Sadly, there is no such thing as a balanced newspaper when it comes to Scottish Politics.

All but one are anti-SNP (though at different levels of animosity), then there's the National, which IMO leans too much in the other direction.

Weirdly, though, the Daily Record and the Herald have swapped places recently, with the Herald coming across at almost Daily Mail levels of anti-SNP, but the Record slightly more balanced than it used to be.

The Record has improved a lot recently in all areas.


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[He's here!]

Not my cup of tea either. It's relentlessly one note. There's still a gap for a rounded, balanced newspaper that leans indy, imo.

Until Sturgeon's departure they certainly got plenty of mileage from running the same front page over and over again...

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/indypishsupertall2a.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

Until Sturgeon's departure they certainly got plenty of mileage from running the same front page over and over again...

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/indypishsupertall2a.jpg

And preventing it by force of law is the way forward.[emoji106][emoji23]


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[neil7908]

Now u-turned on self ID:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66299705.amp

What number are we at now? It must be 20+...

[TrumpIsAPeado]

And preventing it by force of law is the way forward.[emoji106][emoji23]


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Their laws, under their judges, working under their draconian legislation.

Back to the subject of Labour. I find it incredible that at a time when the UK economy is in the toilet, the NHS is on it's knees, public services are utterly decimated, there's record numbers of foodbanks and homeless people as well as child poverty. Labour couldn't possibly be any further away from the radical, progressive, forward thinking government of 1945 under Clement Attlee. Back then they never said "there isn't any money left". They simply did what was necessary to establish a strong socio-economic foundation which gave rise to the NHS, social housing and better working conditions.

This iteration of the Labour Party is rotten to the core and i'm genuinely embarrassed for anybody who can't see that or who simply doesn't care to see it.

[He's here!]

Now u-turned on self ID:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66299705.amp

What number are we at now? It must be 20+...

From the Guardian:

'Aberdeen-born Shadow Equalities Secretary Anneliese Dodds said that Labour wanted to ensure they avoided the "mistakes" made by the Scottish government whom she claimed had adopted a "cavalier approach" to gender recognition reform and whose proposed legislation "seemed more concerned with picking a fight with Westminster than bringing about meaningful change". She added that medical diagnosis would remain "a key part" of future Labour reforms.'

In this case I'd say Labour have made a sensible reversal of policy. They must have looked at the fiasco around the proposed SG legislation and learned how not to do it. I'd say Scottish Labour were almost as much to blame as the SG for the mess that was created and I'd imagine they will quietly come into line with UK party policy.

[Glory Lurker]

From the Guardian:

'Aberdeen-born Shadow Equalities Secretary Anneliese Dodds said that Labour wanted to ensure they avoided the "mistakes" made by the Scottish government whom she claimed had adopted a "cavalier approach" to gender recognition reform and whose proposed legislation "seemed more concerned with picking a fight with Westminster than bringing about meaningful change". She added that medical diagnosis would remain "a key part" of future Labour reforms.'

In this case I'd say Labour have made a sensible reversal of policy. They must have looked at the fiasco around the proposed SG legislation and learned how not to do it. I'd say Scottish Labour were almost as much to blame as the SG for the mess that was created and I'd imagine they will quietly come into line with UK party policy.

Where is the Scotland-based Labour person saying as much? Have they all just given up the ghost or are they happy that the Big Boys are taking control of the situation?

"Scottish" Labour is like the loudmouth at school that gives it out big then leaves it to their big brother to settle the argument.

[He's here!]

Where is the Scotland-based Labour person saying as much? Have they all just given up the ghost or are they happy that the Big Boys are taking control of the situation?

"Scottish" Labour is like the loudmouth at school that gives it out big then leaves it to their big brother to settle the argument.

Starmer's one of numerous politicians to be left floundering when trying to come up with a coherent view on this issue. He's clearly seen how wrong things went for the SG/Sturgeon over not only the proposed legislation but the fall-out over the Bryson case and knows he needs to be more decisive going forward. Acknowledging that a woman is 'an adult human female' today is a step in the right direction. Scottish Labour would be a bit daft to maintain any sort of conflict over this.

[Glory Lurker]

Starmer's one of numerous politicians to be left floundering when trying to come up with a coherent view on this issue. He's clearly seen how wrong things went for the SG/Sturgeon over not only the proposed legislation but the fall-out over the Bryson case and knows he needs to be more decisive going forward. Acknowledging that a woman is 'an adult human female' today is a step in the right direction. Scottish Labour would be a bit daft to maintain any sort of conflict over this.

You're ignoring the point. Where is the local Labour folk explaining why they have changed their minds? It's because they don't really have their own minds! Simple as that, let's stop the charade.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1684924675623628800?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

When even the Scotsman is mocking a unionist party.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/thenewsagents/status/1684939516010811392?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Starmer will need to keep an eye on Burnham. He has some support within the party.


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[degenerated]

Another u-turn incoming?27061

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Another u-turn incoming?27061

But they're going to be cruel in a more serious and well behaved manner compared to the current incumbents. This is what the UK has been crying out for since 13-14 years of hell, right?

The 1% must be rubbing their hands with glee.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/yousaf-is-off-galivanting-and-not-leading-scotland-says-labours-baillie

FM should not be concerned with anything outside the central belt according to Scottish Labour.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23688366.anas-sarwar-household-wealth-spotlight-240-000-dividends/

No wonder Anas Sarwar can’t find the time to actually be Labour leader.


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[degenerated]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23688366.anas-sarwar-household-wealth-spotlight-240-000-dividends/

No wonder Anas Sarwar can’t find the time to actually be Labour leader.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs that the same business that was paying under minimum wage and banned employees from joining unions.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that the same business that was paying under minimum wage and banned employees from joining unions.

No idea but perhaps gives an explanation why he is never in Parliament, never gives media interviews and never is seen in public.


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[degenerated]

No idea but perhaps gives an explanation why he is never in Parliament, never gives media interviews and never is seen in public.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15525998.anas-sarwar-fire-family-firm-pays-staff-less-real-living-wage/

[degenerated]

No idea but perhaps gives an explanation why he is never in Parliament, never gives media interviews and never is seen in public.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCould explain though Im not sure being leader of labours Scottish regional branch is a full time job. Policies are decided down south and all he has responsibility for is foi requests and ambulance chasing for FMQs.

At least Douglas Ross is a bit more open about having the time for additional jobs, if not the actual earnings from them.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Ross can only dream of Sarwar’s wealth.


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[degenerated]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15525998.anas-sarwar-fire-family-firm-pays-staff-less-real-living-wage/Was actually living wage rather than minimum wage, but it's all cool as they didn't pay it because they didn't have to.

27068

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Was actually living wage rather than minimum wage, but it's all cool as they didn't pay it because they didn't have to.

27068

That's the type of "pro-business" gusto Starmer will be delighted to have working under his wing.

[Ozyhibby]

That's the type of "pro-business" gusto Starmer will be delighted to have working under his wing.

Working? I’m not sure that’s Sarwar’s thing? Likes the odd day off.[emoji6]


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://theworldnews.net/gb-news/caught-out-again-mp-claims-parking-fine-on-expenses

A member of Sir Keir Starmer’s top team billed taxpayers for a £55 parking ticket, leading the expenses watchdog to tighten its rules and write to MPs, The Independent can reveal.
Shadow treasury minister Abena Oppong-Asare’s expenses included the fine after a staff member received a ticket while parked outside a constituency surgery in her Erith and Thamesmead seat.
The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) launched a review of past claims and “changed its processes” after The Independent revealed the charge.
Senior Conservative MPs said it was “unbelievable” and called on Sir Keir to “show leadership” and sack Ms Oppong-Asare.

An earlier investigation by The Independent found IPSA had approved penalty charges from senior Tories Amanda Solloway, Bim Afolami and Simon Hoare, as well as SNP MP Dave Doogan.

absolutely scandalous tax payers money is used to pay these fines and that goes for Doogan as well

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23690907.anas-sarwars-family-business-spotlight-dividend-payments/
No wonder he doesn’t bother doing any actual work.[emoji106]


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23690907.anas-sarwars-family-business-spotlight-dividend-payments/
No wonder he doesn’t bother doing any actual work.[emoji106]


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this is what should really concern voters, he's a bare-faced Liar

He initially denied taking dividend income from his £4.8 million share, then admitted he had.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snps-stephen-flynn-under-investigation-over-misuse-of-westminster-stationery

Flynn must have touched a raw Labour nerve.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji23]


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[grunt]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snps-stephen-flynn-under-investigation-over-misuse-of-westminster-stationery

Flynn must have touched a raw Labour nerve.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji23]


Pathetic.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1686996643533475840?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Jack]

https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1686996643533475840?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Two Labour councillors in Edinburgh suspended. Kept that quiet!

[DaveF]

Two Labour councillors in Edinburgh suspended. Kept that quiet!

It was last year. Reported in the EEN though I can't find any reference to it on the BBC, but that might be my poor searching.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/murrayf00te/status/1687075571606355968?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Embarrassing from the Labour candidate in Rutherglen.


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[Jack]

It was last year. Reported in the EEN though I can't find any reference to it on the BBC, but that might be my poor searching.

Ah! I thought it was more recent given the date on the clip.

[grunt]

So the Labour candidate for Rutherglen is saying he's opposed to the 2 child cap and the bedroom tax, both of which are Labour policy.
Is he a candidate or a stalking horse?

[Ozyhibby]

So the Labour candidate for Rutherglen is saying he's opposed to the 2 child cap and the bedroom tax, both of which are Labour policy.
Is he a candidate or a stalking horse?

He is flat out lying, that’s what he is doing.


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[weecounty hibby]

What a strategy. Vote for Labour so that Labour can vote against Labour. But let's be honest this will be allowed to pass. Sarwar has been posted missing since Starmers decision to go full Tory regarding this and he has been allowed to vanish. No door step intervies by anyone, no following him to get a statement. Nothing. Labour's campaign is being fully backed by the msm

[Ozyhibby]

What a strategy. Vote for Labour so that Labour can vote against Labour. But let's be honest this will be allowed to pass. Sarwar has been posted missing since Starmers decision to go full Tory regarding this and he has been allowed to vanish. No door step intervies by anyone, no following him to get a statement. Nothing. Labour's campaign is being fully backed by the msm

Sarwar has been MIA a lot longer than that. He does FMQ’s and that’s about it. He can’t hide forever though.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://twitter.com/murrayf00te/status/1687075571606355968?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Embarrassing from the Labour candidate in Rutherglen.


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Right now the SNP mitigate the bedroom tax, while the Scottish Labour branch will simply act like they "oppose it" while their boss at Westminster keeps the policy in place. I think i'll stick with the party of mitigation.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66319064

This is the worry if Labour and the Tories manage to form a govt at Holyrood.
Our NHS probably needs a decent level of reform but privatising it is not the answer.



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[Jack]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66319064

This is the worry if Labour and the Tories manage to form a govt at Holyrood.
Our NHS probably needs a decent level of reform but privatising it is not the answer.



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I think there's a role for private healthcare in the NHS and even in Scotland, more than just dentistry, opticians, podiatry and many GPs who are private contractors.

Scotland already uses the private sector to clear/reduce backlogs. I'm happy for this to continue with the caveat that if backlogs continue in a specific area the health board works towards dealing with whatever it is within their own systems.

Having said that Scotland already has its own 'private hospital' the Golden Jubilee dealing with health board backlogs and there are plans to open mini Golden Jubilees around the country.

The Golden Jubilee (part of NHS Scotland) gears up to deal with specific operations, does hunners, then gears up for something else and blitzs them and so on. The mini Golden Jubilees might not get as complex stuff to deal with but it'll be the same idea.

Even with this there will still be stuff where its effective to get the private sector to help out with.

What's happening in England is very different. In England the private sector is providing core services.

[Ozyhibby]

I think there's a role for private healthcare in the NHS and even in Scotland, more than just dentistry, opticians, podiatry and many GPs who are private contractors.

Scotland already uses the private sector to clear/reduce backlogs. I'm happy for this to continue with the caveat that if backlogs continue in a specific area the health board works towards dealing with whatever it is within their own systems.

Having said that Scotland already has its own 'private hospital' the Golden Jubilee dealing with health board backlogs and there are plans to open mini Golden Jubilees around the country.

The Golden Jubilee (part of NHS Scotland) gears up to deal with specific operations, does hunners, then gears up for something else and blitzs them and so on. The mini Golden Jubilees might not get as complex stuff to deal with but it'll be the same idea.

Even with this there will still be stuff where its effective to get the private sector to help out with.

What's happening in England is very different. In England the private sector is proving core services.

I can agree with that. Picking up slack when system is under pressure is fine but not for services pre planned.


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[degenerated]

Ouch, officially just a regional branch :hilarious27098

[Ozyhibby]

Ouch :hilarious27098

Branch office right enough.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23702908.anas-sarwar-told-urgently-clarify-labours-position-heat-pumps/

Hopefully it’s Milliband who answers when Anas asks the head office what to say on heat pumps. It’s a strange position they have taken up this week and potentially very damaging.


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[degenerated]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23702908.anas-sarwar-told-urgently-clarify-labours-position-heat-pumps/

Hopefully it’s Milliband who answers when Anas asks the head office what to say on heat pumps. It’s a strange position they have taken up this week and potentially very damaging.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhy has he written to sarwar, he would have been better just going straight to the organ grinder and left the regional manager to get on with his ambulance chasing for fmq's

[Ozyhibby]

Why has he written to sarwar, he would have been better just going straight to the organ grinder and left the regional manager to get on with his ambulance chasing for fmq's

Especially during recess. Anas doesn’t like working much during parliament as it is.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66399552


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66399552


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Yet Labour in Scotland have been up in arms about the considerably higher pay offers in Scotland. They seem to think that we don't notice what they're doing elsewhere.

[degenerated]

Yet Labour in Scotland have been up in arms about the considerably higher pay offers in Scotland. They seem to think that we don't notice what they're doing elsewhere.The media wont really challenge Labours Scottish identity mark much on this, especially the BBC as they are in full campaign mode for them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-would-keep-housing-asylum-seekers-on-barges-if-elected-shadow-minister-admits-12934683

Labour will keep prison ships.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-would-keep-housing-asylum-seekers-on-barges-if-elected-shadow-minister-admits-12934683

Labour will keep prison ships.


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Well there goes the "Labour are different from the tories because they'll treat the migrants better" argument.

What's next?

[J-C]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/yousaf-is-off-galivanting-and-not-leading-scotland-says-labours-baillie

FM should not be concerned with anything outside the central belt according to Scottish Labour.


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As soon as I read the name Jackie Baillie, I stopped reading.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-would-keep-housing-asylum-seekers-on-barges-if-elected-shadow-minister-admits-12934683

Labour will keep prison ships.


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Listened to his full interview and he said there would be no choice initially but they will commit to removing as soon as possible. A little bit different to a headline surely. Labour will be awful on immigration I'm sure but hopefully they do commit to removing these ships. I know a Ukrainian that was on a ship in Leith and it sounded awful, staying in Gorgie now so swings and roundabouts

[Ozyhibby]

Listened to his full interview and he said there would be no choice initially but they will commit to removing as soon as possible. A little bit different to a headline surely. Labour will be awful on immigration I'm sure but hopefully they do commit to removing these ships. I know a Ukrainian that was on a ship in Leith and it sounded awful, staying in Gorgie now so swings and roundabouts

The Ukrainians were at least allowed off and to work. These prison boats are very different.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The Ukrainians were at least allowed off and to work. These prison boats are very different.


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Both minging. Another reason we need millions of homes

[Keith_M]

Their laws, under their judges, working under their draconian legislation.

Back to the subject of Labour. I find it incredible that at a time when the UK economy is in the toilet, the NHS is on it's knees, public services are utterly decimated, there's record numbers of foodbanks and homeless people as well as child poverty. Labour couldn't possibly be any further away from the radical, progressive, forward thinking government of 1945 under Clement Attlee. Back then they never said "there isn't any money left". They simply did what was necessary to establish a strong socio-economic foundation which gave rise to the NHS, social housing and better working conditions.

This iteration of the Labour Party is rotten to the core and i'm genuinely embarrassed for anybody who can't see that or who simply doesn't care to see it.


If Clement Attlee or any of his Labour colleagues of the time were in the Labour Party today, I don't think they'd last 5 minutes before being sidelined, or even forced out.

We'd then get people saying 'oh well, if they don't want to follow the principles of the current Labour Party, they should leave and start their own'

In fact, I'm sure Clement Atlee succeeded Oswald Mosley as 'Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster' in 1930, so he's clearly a racist/fascist/anti-semite. I mean, guilt by association and all that...

[Ozyhibby]

Both minging. Another reason we need millions of homes

Agree 100%.[emoji106]


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[He's here!]

Listened to his full interview and he said there would be no choice initially but they will commit to removing as soon as possible. A little bit different to a headline surely. Labour will be awful on immigration I'm sure but hopefully they do commit to removing these ships. I know a Ukrainian that was on a ship in Leith and it sounded awful, staying in Gorgie now so swings and roundabouts

Edinburgh Ukrainians living on cruise ship say its 'better than we could have dreamed ' - Edinburgh Live (https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-ukrainians-living-cruise-ship-24630171)

I don't get why the cruise ship accommodation was getting such a bad rep. I did a couple of sessions with a summer holiday club in the community hub at Ocean Terminal with some of the Ukrainian kids staying on the ship last year and they and their families were pretty happy overall. I can think of worse temporary accommodation. References to 'prison ships' seem off the mark when families are free to come and go.

[Ozyhibby]

Edinburgh Ukrainians living on cruise ship say its 'better than we could have dreamed ' - Edinburgh Live (https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-ukrainians-living-cruise-ship-24630171)

I don't get why the cruise ship accommodation was getting such a bad rep. I did a couple of sessions with a summer holiday club in the community hub at Ocean Terminal with some of the Ukrainian kids staying on the ship last year and they and their families were pretty happy overall. I can think of worse temporary accommodation. References to 'prison ships' seem off the mark when families are free to come and go.

I wasn’t talking about the Ukrainians. I don’t think people are free to come and go on these new boats?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

The standard Edinburgh Live readership...

https://i.ibb.co/qk555PC/standardedinurghlive.png

[He's here!]

I wasn’t talking about the Ukrainians. I don’t think people are free to come and go on these new boats?


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I was responding to Stairway's post about the allegedly awful conditions on the Leith ship, but in terms of the barge for asylum seekers, they appear to be relatively free to come and go (details from the BBC below). Far from wonderful obviously, but if you've been desperate enough to risk your life making an illegal Channel crossing I'm guessing it's better that what you left behind. I'm just not clear what the realistic alternatives are when it comes to temporary accommodation for so many people seeking asylum.



The cabins are "relatively spacious" and include a desk, wardrobe, safe locker, TV and large windows. They will house four to six men
Each room has an en-suite bathroom with a shower and there are additional facilities on each of the three floors
There's a TV room with a big screen and sofas, a multi-faith prayer room and a classroom which can be used for meetings and activitie.
The dining room is large, with a long serving counter and tables of six set out in rows
The sample menu includes eggs and pancakes for breakfast, potato soup and beef stew for dinner - this will change regularly and cater for individual needs and religious requirements
There's a gym and outdoor recreational space in the two courtyards in the centre of the barge
Alcohol will not be available for purchase on board
There will be no curfew, but barge residents will be "strongly encouraged" to return to the ship by 23:00 each night

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I wasn’t talking about the Ukrainians. I don’t think people are free to come and go on these new boats?


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Cruise liner being used in Leith for Ukrainians:

https://i2-prod.edinburghlive.co.uk/incoming/article24595116.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_MS-Victoria.png

UK migrant barge being utilized by UK Government to house asylum seekers:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/2D80/production/_129284611_094bc810e90fd429514534ed8d750ddc17aa10f 5.jpg

Quite the difference I'd say.

[Ozyhibby]

I was responding to Stairway's post about the allegedly awful conditions on the Leith ship, but in terms of the barge for asylum seekers, they appear to be relatively free to come and go (details from the BBC below). Far from wonderful obviously, but if you've been desperate enough to risk your life making an illegal Channel crossing I'm guessing it's better that what you left behind. I'm just not clear what the realistic alternatives are when it comes to temporary accommodation for so many people seeking asylum.



The cabins are "relatively spacious" and include a desk, wardrobe, safe locker, TV and large windows. They will house four to six men
Each room has an en-suite bathroom with a shower and there are additional facilities on each of the three floors
There's a TV room with a big screen and sofas, a multi-faith prayer room and a classroom which can be used for meetings and activitie.
The dining room is large, with a long serving counter and tables of six set out in rows
The sample menu includes eggs and pancakes for breakfast, potato soup and beef stew for dinner - this will change regularly and cater for individual needs and religious requirements
There's a gym and outdoor recreational space in the two courtyards in the centre of the barge
Alcohol will not be available for purchase on board
There will be no curfew, but barge residents will be "strongly encouraged" to return to the ship by 23:00 each night


This isn’t a surprising number of arrivals? Proper plans should be in place to process them quickly and house them properly if they are staying or move them on if not. The reason we are having to use these boats is because the govt want to fire up resentment. They are doing that by deliberately slowing down the processing of arrivals and housing them in large visible places. Won’t be long until the British Nationalists are protesting out side the boat and provoking violence.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

when it looks like a Tory, sounds like a Tory, acts like a Tory

it damn well IS a Tory, wonder what else is needed to prove Starmers/Sarwars Labour are in fact TORIES

Labour leader Keir Starmer won't overturn Sunak's new oil and gas licences - as he hits out at Just Stop Oil (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/labour-leader-keir-starmer-won-t-overturn-sunak-s-new-oil-and-gas-licences-as-he-hits-out-at-just-stop-oil/ar-AA1eUmPd?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=271c9d87d9b74d5790e896a82bed726d&ei=92#comments)


vote Labour, get Tory :agree:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ex-Labour MP praises Suella Braverman over her migration policy. He must be trying to worm his way back in under Keir Starmer. (After being booted out under Corbyn for sending nudes to a 17 year old girl).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eAVBGRDoWk

[grunt]

Ex-Labour MP praises Suella Braverman over her migration policy. He must be trying to worm his way back in under Keir Starmer. (After being booted out under Corbyn for sending nudes to a 17 year old girl).
Please provide a warning when linking to TrashTalkTV videos. Thank you.

[Ozyhibby]

Every problem caused by the UK govt has to be sorted by the SG?
Labour Party really are idiotic.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/over-60000-homes-at-risk-of-repossession-amid-soaring-mortgage-costs


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Every problem caused by the UK govt has to be sorted by the SG?
Labour Party really are idiotic.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/over-60000-homes-at-risk-of-repossession-amid-soaring-mortgage-costs


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SNP housing spokesman Chris Stephens said: “The Tories and pro-Brexit Labour Party are to blame for the UK mortgage crisis."

That's the only relevant part in all of that.

[Jones28]

I was responding to Stairway's post about the allegedly awful conditions on the Leith ship, but in terms of the barge for asylum seekers, they appear to be relatively free to come and go (details from the BBC below). Far from wonderful obviously, but if you've been desperate enough to risk your life making an illegal Channel crossing I'm guessing it's better that what you left behind. I'm just not clear what the realistic alternatives are when it comes to temporary accommodation for so many people seeking asylum.



The cabins are "relatively spacious" and include a desk, wardrobe, safe locker, TV and large windows. They will house four to six men
Each room has an en-suite bathroom with a shower and there are additional facilities on each of the three floors
There's a TV room with a big screen and sofas, a multi-faith prayer room and a classroom which can be used for meetings and activitie.
The dining room is large, with a long serving counter and tables of six set out in rows
The sample menu includes eggs and pancakes for breakfast, potato soup and beef stew for dinner - this will change regularly and cater for individual needs and religious requirements
There's a gym and outdoor recreational space in the two courtyards in the centre of the barge
Alcohol will not be available for purchase on board
There will be no curfew, but barge residents will be "strongly encouraged" to return to the ship by 23:00 each night



The barges were built to house 2 men per cabin.

It sounds ****ing awful.

Are we not better than this?

[cabbageandribs1875]

:hilarious Starmer challenged over would-be MP’s Greenpeace links | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/labour-greenpeace-nadine-dorries-grant-shapps-suella-braverman-b2389405.html)
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/366236060_2701045603418359_681768638622755076_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=x8-osoQZQHoAX-z5mL1&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAGoL2SuHHzseR8PL2n5vkFye8s0FgINdMVmBgDb_dk gg&oe=64D6AC5B

[He's here!]

The barges were built to house 2 men per cabin.

It sounds ****ing awful.

Are we not better than this?

What will life be like for migrants on board the Bibby Stockholm barge? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/what-will-life-be-like-for-migrants-on-board-the-bibby-stockholm-barge/ar-AA1eWxtK)

Says here there are larger rooms designed to house four and six people.

I'm not suggesting it's great by any means, but presumably it's more comfortable than a migrant camp at Calais.

Is filling hotels or disused military barracks any better? What would your solution be? There's got to be some sort of temporary accommodation while asylum claims are processed for people who arrive in the UK illegally and often without documentation. Very different to the situation with the evacuated Ukrainians being housed on the cruise ship at Leith.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What will life be like for migrants on board the Bibby Stockholm barge? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/what-will-life-be-like-for-migrants-on-board-the-bibby-stockholm-barge/ar-AA1eWxtK)

Says here there are larger rooms designed to house four and six people.

I'm not suggesting it's great by any means, but presumably it's more comfortable than a migrant camp at Calais.

Is filling hotels or disused military barracks any better? What would your solution be? There's got to be some sort of temporary accommodation while asylum claims are processed for people who arrive in the UK illegally and often without documentation. Very different to the situation with the evacuated Ukrainians being housed on the cruise ship at Leith.

They're not designed to house 4-6 people. They're just going to cram 4-6 people in them.

The accommodation can't really be defined as temporary either, as the UK Government is quite literally refusing to process claims. Keeping desperate people trapped in a state of limbo.

[Pretty Boy]

The solution to the problem is a reversal of the chronic underfunding of the departments that process asylum and immigration applications and for the government to stop actively refusing to process claims.

That still takes time but this logjam is caused by deliberate acts. Worse still is that the reluctance to find a solution is politically motivated as well; 'stop the boats' is the type of political slogan that resonates with a certain type of voter, a voter that is unfortunately a key target for the Conservatives and one that Labour seems to want to at best placate and at worst actively indulge. I would argue the fact that people being left on what are essentially prison style barges for an indeterminate amount of time is a sad indictment of how far to the right the political mainstream has shifted. It's not even an exclusively British thing, a cursory glance at goings on in Ireland suggests there is similar inflammatory rhetoric whipping people up there as well.

It's scapegoating to create misplaced anger and it's morally repugnant.

[Stairway 2 7]

The answer is putting out red carpets on the beaches. Immigrants are generally young work and bring in more in tax than they take. Scotland has an aging population and unlike England's which will grow, our population is expected to shrink.

We should bus them up to Scotland for free if they wish

[TrumpIsAPeado]

We should bus them up to Scotland for free if they wish

Or the UK Government could bus them up for free, seeing as how desperate they are to get rid of them.

[Ozyhibby]

What will life be like for migrants on board the Bibby Stockholm barge? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/what-will-life-be-like-for-migrants-on-board-the-bibby-stockholm-barge/ar-AA1eWxtK)

Says here there are larger rooms designed to house four and six people.

I'm not suggesting it's great by any means, but presumably it's more comfortable than a migrant camp at Calais.

Is filling hotels or disused military barracks any better? What would your solution be? There's got to be some sort of temporary accommodation while asylum claims are processed for people who arrive in the UK illegally and often without documentation. Very different to the situation with the evacuated Ukrainians being housed on the cruise ship at Leith.

The solution is to have a proper system in place to deal with it. The UK is doing this deliberately to stoke up hatred.
The number of arrivals is not a surprise. We should have a system fit for purpose.
Still if you can attack the SNP over it then it’s worth it.[emoji849]


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[JeMeSouviens]

The answer is putting out red carpets on the beaches. Immigrants are generally young work and bring in more in tax than they take. Scotland has an aging population and unlike England's which will grow, our population is expected to shrink.

We should bus them up to Scotland for free if they wish

Agreed, except we shouldn't need them to pay gangs to help them make dangerous crossings. Provide offices in UK embassies/consulates in countries neighouring refugee hotspots, eg. in Turkey for Syria, and do an initial triage giving visas to those with valid claims. Basically take our fair share in a humane way.

[Jones28]

What will life be like for migrants on board the Bibby Stockholm barge? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/what-will-life-be-like-for-migrants-on-board-the-bibby-stockholm-barge/ar-AA1eWxtK)

Says here there are larger rooms designed to house four and six people.

I'm not suggesting it's great by any means, but presumably it's more comfortable than a migrant camp at Calais.

Is filling hotels or disused military barracks any better? What would your solution be? There's got to be some sort of temporary accommodation while asylum claims are processed for people who arrive in the UK illegally and often without documentation. Very different to the situation with the evacuated Ukrainians being housed on the cruise ship at Leith.

They were not designed to hold 4-6 people per room, they were designed to hold 2.

https://inews.co.uk/news/bibby-stockholm-inside-controversial-barge-housing-uk-asylum-seekers-2529093

Article here, previous capacity was 222.

What would I do? I would spend money on the ****ing system and make it fit for purpose. This goverment have no interest in doing that.

Long term I would build a purpose built facility with a monstrous capacity, with the ability to house individuals, families etc and try and treat them with some compassion.

[He's here!]

They're not designed to house 4-6 people. They're just going to cram 4-6 people in them.

The accommodation can't really be defined as temporary either, as the UK Government is quite literally refusing to process claims. Keeping desperate people trapped in a state of limbo.

'I like it': First migrant to leave Bibby Stockholm gives verdict on what life is like... - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/first-migrant-gives-bibby-stockhom-verdict/)

[TrumpIsAPeado]

'I like it': First migrant to leave Bibby Stockholm gives verdict on what life is like... - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/first-migrant-gives-bibby-stockhom-verdict/)

Amir from Iran is one of the first to be put on the barge. I wonder if he'll still like it several weeks down the line when it's crammed well beyond it's designed capacity.

[Ozyhibby]

'I like it': First migrant to leave Bibby Stockholm gives verdict on what life is like... - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/first-migrant-gives-bibby-stockhom-verdict/)

You’re clearly a big fan.[emoji106]


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[Jones28]

'I like it': First migrant to leave Bibby Stockholm gives verdict on what life is like... - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/first-migrant-gives-bibby-stockhom-verdict/)


"I like it, its ok" was the full quote.


15/500 at the moment. I wonder how it will hold up in a months time.

Here's another comparison https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1689067719222861833?s=20

[Hibrandenburg]

"I like it, its ok" was the full quote.


15/500 at the moment. I wonder how it will hold up in a months time.

500 people of mixed race, religion, culture and language all stuffed into a big boat for an unknown length of time. What can possibly go wrong?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

500 people of mixed race, religion, culture and language all stuffed into a big boat for an unknown length of time. What can possibly go wrong?

Which is exactly what the tories are hoping for. They want it all to kick off so they can use their influences in the media to further generate negative press in regards to foreigners. Expect multiple stories of foreigners being aggressive and more prone to committing crimes over the coming months.

[Stairway 2 7]

We need better systems to deal with refugees in Europe. Mostly we try to palm it off to someone else and don't think about it. Mass refugee camps in Turkey and Greece are appalling cramped and unsanitary.

We also pay other nations UK with Rwanda and EU with Libya
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news-feature/2021/6/24/libya-fails-to-stop-migrant-detention-abuses-as-eu-backed-returns-soar

The situation isn't much better when they get here. 300 refugees in Holland were forced to sleep outside at a camp and a baby unfortunately died.

https://archive.ph/yuMSs

I shared this at the time horrifying. When hundreds of refugees tried to get into Spain, Spanish border guards beat 37 of them to death. They still don't have justice or autopsies. Almost 1000 refugees died trying to get into Spain last year
https://challenge-magazine.org/2022/06/28/37-refugees-killed-in-melilla-enclave-border-repression/

How did this happen, Poland has barbed wire borders, Italy has boats to push back small boats, uk has horrible mass barges. Its going to get worse as the world heats. Many of the same people who don't care about warming, complain about people fleeing from the famine and wars the cause

[Ozyhibby]

We need better systems to deal with refugees in Europe. Mostly we try to palm it off to someone else and don't think about it. Mass refugee camps in Turkey and Greece are appalling cramped and unsanitary.

We also pay other nations UK with Rwanda and EU with Libya
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news-feature/2021/6/24/libya-fails-to-stop-migrant-detention-abuses-as-eu-backed-returns-soar

The situation isn't much better when they get here. 300 refugees in Holland were forced to sleep outside at a camp and a baby unfortunately died.

https://archive.ph/yuMSs

I shared this at the time horrifying. When hundreds of refugees tried to get into Spain, Spanish border guards beat 37 of them to death. They still don't have justice or autopsies. Almost 1000 refugees died trying to get into Spain last year
https://challenge-magazine.org/2022/06/28/37-refugees-killed-in-melilla-enclave-border-repression/

How did this happen, Poland has barbed wire borders, Italy has boats to push back small boats, uk has horrible mass barges. Its going to get worse as the world heats. Many of the same people who don't care about warming, complain about people fleeing from the famine and wars the cause

Poland’s barbed wire borders are entirely justified as Belarus is using migration as an act of war against it.


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[lapsedhibee]

Its going to get worse as the world heats.

Yep, gonna need 7000 muckle barges strung out end to end between Westminster and Land's End, all with cannon pointing south. It'll be like when we ruled the waves all over again. Turner will be out sketching, Raleigh will be playing bowls, aaaah bless.

[Stairway 2 7]

Poland’s barbed wire borders are entirely justified as Belarus is using migration as an act of war against it.


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They are definitely justified as Lukashenko has been doing it well before the war. My point is how is this happening in 2023. We need to process these people before they risk there lives. Europe is aging and shrinking so all need immigration, the problem is political

[grunt]

It seems the Labour candidate for Rutherglen opposes the 2 child limit, is against the bedroom tax and wants to think about rejoining the EU.
Is he sure he's standing for the correct party?

[weecounty hibby]

It seems the Labour candidate for Rutherglen opposes the 2 child limit, is against the bedroom tax and wants to think about rejoining the EU.
Is he sure he's standing for the correct party?

He can say all of that as much as he wants. That is all total BS for the election. If he gets elected he will immediately fall in line with Labour policy. Scottish Labour have no policy as there is no Scottish Labour as confirmed by the electoral commission.

[archie]

He can say all of that as much as he wants. That is all total BS for the election. If he gets elected he will immediately fall in line with Labour policy. Scottish Labour have no policy as there is no Scottish Labour as confirmed by the electoral commission.

You do know that the Labour Party is not in power in Westminster or Holyrood? The Scottish Goverment admits it could mitigate the two child cap but chooses not to. Are these poor families being sacrificed by the SNP for political purposes?

[Ozyhibby]

He can say all of that as much as he wants. That is all total BS for the election. If he gets elected he will immediately fall in line with Labour policy. Scottish Labour have no policy as there is no Scottish Labour as confirmed by the electoral commission.

Yip. It’s probably one of the most blatantly dishonest election campaigns I’ve ever seen. He is reaching Boris Johnson levels of dishonesty. As with Johnson, it will likely work.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

You do know that the Labour Party is not in power in Westminster or Holyrood? The Scottish Goverment admits it could mitigate the two child cap but chooses not to. Are these poor families being sacrificed by the SNP for political purposes?

They indeed could. But where do they pull the funding from to further mitigate a policy that the Scottish electorate didn't vote in favour of?

[Stairway 2 7]

Kate Forbes would vote against self ID and probably gay marriage, Fergus Ewing against the current DRS. Both are in the correct party but have a difference of opinion from the party line. They would be free to vote against unless it was whipped.

As for there not being a Scottish Labour, isn't that what most Labour voters in Scotland want union with the uk party

[archie]

They indeed could. But where do they pull the funding from to further mitigate a policy that the Scottish electorate didn't vote in favour of?

I'm glad you agree it's a political choice.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm glad you agree it's a political choice.

It's an economic choice. A choice that wouldn't have to be made if a parliament based in another country couldn't inflict policies on us that our electorate never voted for.

[archie]

It's an economic choice. A choice that wouldn't have to be made if a parliament based in another country couldn't inflict policies on us that our electorate never voted for.

But we agree it's a choice.

[weecounty hibby]

You do know that the Labour Party is not in power in Westminster or Holyrood? The Scottish Goverment admits it could mitigate the two child cap but chooses not to. Are these poor families being sacrificed by the SNP for political purposes?
600m per year already to mitigate Westminster austerity that hits the poorest. If only we didn't have to do this all the time and continue again and again and again. But union above all else

[TrumpIsAPeado]

But we agree it's a choice.

Certainly, it's always choices. Choices such as "do we starve children or freeze pensioners?". Those kinds of choices.

[archie]

600m per year already to mitigate Westminster austerity that hits the poorest. If only we didn't have to do this all the time and continue again and again and again. But union above all else

But isn't the point of devolution that we can do things differently?