The future of the Labour Party

[Stairway 2 7]

Brutal but expected. The establishment would never allow Corbyn to disrupt the gravy train. Do these people think we have it better now than if they had backed Corbyn. I see the upper echelons of tories and Labour as the old firm boardroom, outwardly hating each other but in reality making deals

That's why I despise people like Alistair Campbell, James OBrien and mandelson piping up the last 3 years making a living criticising (rightly) the tories. James OBrien said he'd rather abstain in the general election than vote Corbyn, then makes millions complaining about the tory government that came in, tit.

Just saying..

https://mobile.twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1574127516054347776
christopherhope
NEW 👀 🛳

Peter Mandelson says Liz Truss should order a replacement for Royal Yacht Britannia to honour the late Queen Elizabeth.

The peer - the most senior Labour figure to call for a new National Flagship - says it could be called the “Elizabeth

[Ozyhibby]

Is this a permanent move though? As Lisa Nandy says it seems reasonable to open the event with a tribute to someone who devoted 70 years to public service. Is that really 'odd' or out of step with the current national sentiment? It doesnt appear clear tho if the anthem will now become an annual fixture.

They could sing ‘last train to Clarksville’ for all I care. Would be nice to hear some ideas though for improving peoples lives?


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[hibsbollah]

Labour and electoral reform, very good piece by John Harris.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/25/liz-truss-keir-starmer-electoral-reform-voting-system

[ronaldo7]

They could sing ‘last train to Clarksville’ for all I care. Would be nice to hear some ideas though for improving peoples lives?


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They've been wrapping themselves in the butcher's apron since Sir keir took charge. He's ousted many from the left of the party, and they're happy to share power with the Tories all over Scotland.

God save the King. 😩

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour now odds on at the bookies to win next GE. Also now planning on some nationalisation

jessicaelgot
·
1h
🚨NEW - Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow transport minister, will announce Labour is to renationalise the railways. Big win for Haigh who has campaigned hard internally for this

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour now odds on at the bookies to win next GE. Also now planning on some nationalisation

jessicaelgot
·
1h
🚨NEW - Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow transport minister, will announce Labour is to renationalise the railways. Big win for Haigh who has campaigned hard internally for this

More plans coming out

PippaCrerar
·
1h
Labour's @RachelReevesMP announces reversing 45p rate cut will pay for big boost to NHS staffing

👩*⚕️ double number of new district nurses a year
❤️*🩹 train more than 5,000 new health visitors
🏥create 10,000 extra nursing & midwife places
🩺 major expansion of medical school places

[hibsbollah]

Louise Haigh commits Labour to nationalizing the railways, to sustained applause at conference. Some positive signs today that the strategy of ‘sit tight and say nothing in case it antagonistes the Tory press’, is over. Or some of them might just be departing from the script? I also liked Ed Miliband today.

[ronaldo7]

Louise Haigh commits Labour to nationalizing the railways, to sustained applause at conference. Some positive signs today that the strategy of ‘sit tight and say nothing in case it antagonistes the Tory press’, is over. Or some of them might just be departing from the script? I also liked Ed Miliband today.

Sam Tarry will be pleased. He can maybe get his job back.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1574488024603402240?s=46&t=ShVH2tVtbAW6m_kPiwrqzA

Sarwar must have been furious with this.[emoji23]


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[Pretty Boy]

A wee bit more encouraged with some of the stuff coming out of conference today.

It's evidently a party getting themselves on an election footing and plans that have been kept under wraps are gradually being released.

I thought Mick Lunch nailed it (again) on Channel 4 yesterday. He said the Labour leadership can sing what they like and wrap themselves up in any flag they like. What will win the day though is policy that shows traditional Labour voters and not so traditional voters impacted by the last 12 disastrous years of Tory govt that Labour are a party on their side.

[James310]

A wee bit more encouraged with some of the stuff coming out of conference today.

It's evidently a party getting themselves on an election footing and plans that have been kept under wraps are gradually being released.

I thought Mick Lunch nailed it (again) on Channel 4 yesterday. He said the Labour leadership can sing what they like and wrap themselves up in any flag they like. What will win the day though is policy that shows traditional Labour voters and not so traditional voters impacted by the last 12 disastrous years of Tory govt that Labour are a party on their side.

It's working.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378?t=80Shni7s8pmUWdaWN-D_0w&s=19


Yougov 23rd-25th September

Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%

Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.

[Ozyhibby]

It's working.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378?t=80Shni7s8pmUWdaWN-D_0w&s=19


Yougov 23rd-25th September

Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%

Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.

Truss honeymoon.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It's working.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1574498355090276378?t=80Shni7s8pmUWdaWN-D_0w&s=19


Yougov 23rd-25th September

Labour 45%
Tories 28%
Libs 9%

Biggest Labour lead YouGov have ever had in 21 years of polling.

Jeezo unbelievable that. Bookies have them well odds on. So if anyone thinks tories will win next election don't talk about it, get your money on now

[Kato]

Truss honeymoon.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThatcher had 11 years to build a solid backcatalogue. Maybe Truss won't be there long enough to even make an ep, and some of them are covers ( of Thatcher).

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[He's here!]

Starmer to quote Blair in keynote speech:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63037696

Hoping to repeat a winning Labour formula presumably...

[hibsbollah]

What really happened during Labour’s ‘anti-Semitism crisis’ (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-really-happened-during-labour-e2-80-99s-e2-80-98anti-semitism-crisis-e2-80-99/ar-AA12dDi8)

Three part Al Jazeera special. UK press' predictable response:tumble:

[Mon Dieu4]

What really happened during Labour’s ‘anti-Semitism crisis’ (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-really-happened-during-labour-e2-80-99s-e2-80-98anti-semitism-crisis-e2-80-99/ar-AA12dDi8)

Three part Al Jazeera special. UK press' predictable response:tumble:

I watched one of the parts yesterday and it should be a huge story but won't be, total stitch up

[hibsbollah]

I watched one of the parts yesterday and it should be a huge story but won't be, total stitch up

The only fuss has been Stella Creasy saying the accusations against her husband Dan Fox of being chummy with far right elements, are ‘smears’ (although no actual denials and no threat of legal action). Google searches of his name, the allegations and the Al Jazeera story seem to reveal nothing. One of those stories that you’ll need to be on the right groups on Twitter or watch Al Jazeera to follow.

We all knew it was a stitch-up, and lots of people who don’t like Corbyn know it was a stitch-up but would rather not talk about it, or think it’s a price worth paying to get rid.

[heretoday]

I watched one of the parts yesterday and it should be a huge story but won't be, total stitch up

Lot of nastiness in the Corbyn era with closet Tories at work.
All I know is I was in the Labour Party for several years and never saw one instance of antisemitism. I'd expect that more of the Conservative party to be honest.
Criticism of Israel doesn't amount to antisemitism.

[hibsbollah]

A motion supporting scrapping FPTP and going with PR passed easily yesterday at conference. Highly unlikely to become policy.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/chrislunday98/status/1574669527165857793?s=46&t=njOLKicrrbP_x_8w5z2vdA

Some brass neck on Sarwar.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

A motion supporting scrapping FPTP and going with PR passed easily yesterday at conference. Highly unlikely to become policy.

Close to zero chance. Would be good for the country but terrible for the Labour Party so they won’t go for it.


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[He's here!]

Lot of nastiness in the Corbyn era with closet Tories at work.
All I know is I was in the Labour Party for several years and never saw one instance of antisemitism. I'd expect that more of the Conservative party to be honest.
Criticism of Israel doesn't amount to antisemitism.

The EHRC report into anti-Semitism within the Labour Party on Corbyn's watch really could not have been any more damning, in particular when it came to the party leadership's role. Quite how anyone can claim it was a stich-up is baffling. I can only assume those who do so regard anti-Semitism as not proper racism.

Watching Starmer's speech just now and the cheer when he mentioned the way he has dealt with the issue was the loudest so far.

[Stairway 2 7]

Increasing the high tax rate, nationalising the railways and setting up public owned gas company. Labour showing its clear difference to the Tories, credit where its due.

HugoGye
·
9m
Labour would set up a publicly owned energy supplier, Great British Energy, within a year of taking power, Starmer announces

Great British Energy would compete in the market with privately owned suppliers and would use only clean energy sources, according to Labour
Starmer criticises Tory housing policy: "If you keep inflating demand without increasing supply, house prices will only rise." He promises to "reform planning so speculators can't stop communities from getting shovels in the ground

[Kato]

The EHRC report into anti-Semitism within the Labour Party on Corbyn's watch really could not have been any more damning, in particular when it came to the party leadership's role. Quite how anyone can claim it was a stich-up is baffling. I can only assume those who do so regard anti-Semitism as not proper racism.

Watching Starmer's speech just now and the cheer when he mentioned the way he has dealt with the issue was the loudest so far.Who are they EHRC?

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[grunt]

Who are they EHRC?
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/inquiries-and-investigations/investigation-labour-party

Equality and Human Rights Commission

[grunt]

Starmer:

Still refusing to grasp the Brexit nettle
Still refusing to work with the SNP..

Where's he going to get the power for his GB Energy Company?

Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Probably his best speech yet. Won’t do much to bring back SNP supporters to Labour though.


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[ronaldo7]

Starmer:

Still refusing to grasp the Brexit nettle
Still refusing to work with the SNP..

Where's he going to get the power for his GB Energy Company?

Scotland.

Why would the SNP want to work with a Brexit voting party. Our European friends are much more accommodating.

[Stairway 2 7]

Probably his best speech yet. Won’t do much to bring back SNP supporters to Labour though.


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He's not going for that it will win alot of undecideds, has to be a shoe in for the win.

[Mon Dieu4]

The EHRC report into anti-Semitism within the Labour Party on Corbyn's watch really could not have been any more damning, in particular when it came to the party leadership's role. Quite how anyone can claim it was a stich-up is baffling. I can only assume those who do so regard anti-Semitism as not proper racism.

Watching Starmer's speech just now and the cheer when he mentioned the way he has dealt with the issue was the loudest so far.

Take it you haven't watched or read them then?

[Hibbyradge]

Starmer:

Still refusing to grasp the Brexit nettle
Still refusing to work with the SNP..

Where's he going to get the power for his GB Energy Company?

Scotland.

Of course he's going to refuse to deal with the SNP.

[grunt]

Of course he's going to refuse to deal with the SNP.
Yeah, I guess so.

[hibsbollah]

The EHRC report into anti-Semitism within the Labour Party on Corbyn's watch really could not have been any more damning, in particular when it came to the party leadership's role. Quite how anyone can claim it was a stich-up is baffling. I can only assume those who do so regard anti-Semitism as not proper racism.

Watching Starmer's speech just now and the cheer when he mentioned the way he has dealt with the issue was the loudest so far.

You used the word ‘damning’ to describe the EHRC findings before, it’s really a bit of a meaningless catch all phrase. I’m sure you won’t bother to watch the documentary about how it was conducted, but if you do we can discuss in detail.

[Pretty Boy]

Of course he's going to refuse to deal with the SNP.

I'm unconvinced the SNP will be in any rush to work with Labour either so it's hardly an exclusive position he is taking.

I think it's increasingly clear in the polls surrounding independence that there just isn't the scope for a double digit swing the way there was last time out. There are huge swathes who are now firmly entrenched in one camp or the other and they aren't for budging any time soon. The anecdotal evidence of 'I know 50 people who were all no/yes and they are now yes/no' just doesn't stack up. Any referendum is going to be decided by the minority who are still undecided or open to changing position and they number in the (high) thousands rather than the millions.

One of the key factors that is likely to draw that subsection of voters to No rather than Yes is a Labour government in Westmninster. The SNP know this as well hence their, totally understandable, determination to get a vote held before another general election is due. I'd be stunned if we don't see a snap election in the not too distance future, the early actions of a new (small n) Labour government will have a huge bearing on the outcome of a referendum that will inevitably happen in the next 12-24 months.

[wookie70]

I'm unconvinced the SNP will be in any rush to work with Labour either so it's hardly an exclusive position he is taking.

I think it's increasingly clear in the polls surrounding independence that there just isn't the scope for a double digit swing the way there was last time out. There are huge swathes who are now firmly entrenched in one camp or the other and they aren't for budging any time soon. The anecdotal evidence of 'I know 50 people who were all no/yes and they are now yes/no' just doesn't stack up. Any referendum is going to be decided by the minority who are still undecided or open to changing position and they number in the (high) thousands rather than the millions.

One of the key factors that is likely to draw that subsection of voters to No rather than Yes is a Labour government in Westmninster. The SNP know this as well hence their, totally understandable, determination to get a vote held before another general election is due. I'd be stunned if we don't see a snap election in the not too distance future, the early actions of a new (small n) Labour government will have a huge bearing on the outcome of a referendum that will inevitably happen in the next 12-24 months.

I agree with that but it would be incredibly short sighted on anyone voting in an Independence referendum to think of a Labour Government as anything but a short term thing in Westminster/English Politics. Labour will be unlikely get a majority without getting 10 plus seats in Scotland so they will need teh SNP or Lib Dems to form a government. Hopefully there is a referendum before the next election but I can't see Truss lasting until Christmas and another leadership battle might coincide with a GE.

[OldEast]

I agree with that but it would be incredibly short sighted on anyone voting in an Independence referendum to think of a Labour Government as anything but a short term thing in Westminster/English Politics. Labour will be unlikely get a majority without getting 10 plus seats in Scotland so they will need teh SNP or Lib Dems to form a government. Hopefully there is a referendum before the next election but I can't see Truss lasting until Christmas and another leadership battle might coincide with a GE.

Short sighted? Doesn't that describe huge swathes of the electorate?

[James310]

I'm unconvinced the SNP will be in any rush to work with Labour either so it's hardly an exclusive position he is taking.

I think it's increasingly clear in the polls surrounding independence that there just isn't the scope for a double digit swing the way there was last time out. There are huge swathes who are now firmly entrenched in one camp or the other and they aren't for budging any time soon. The anecdotal evidence of 'I know 50 people who were all no/yes and they are now yes/no' just doesn't stack up. Any referendum is going to be decided by the minority who are still undecided or open to changing position and they number in the (high) thousands rather than the millions.

One of the key factors that is likely to draw that subsection of voters to No rather than Yes is a Labour government in Westmninster. The SNP know this as well hence their, totally understandable, determination to get a vote held before another general election is due. I'd be stunned if we don't see a snap election in the not too distance future, the early actions of a new (small n) Labour government will have a huge bearing on the outcome of a referendum that will inevitably happen in the next 12-24 months.

Why do you think a referendum is inevitable in next 2 years? Under what scenario would that happen?

You mean a S30 referendum that like last time would need majority support in Westminster? Highly unlikely in next 2 years...

[grunt]

Why do you think a referendum is inevitable in next 2 years? Under what scenario would that happen?

Do you have some insight into how the Supreme Court will rule?

[James310]

Do you have some insight into how the Supreme Court will rule?

No, but even if the SNP "win" it's an advisory referendum they want to hold, one they admit will have zero effect on the Union. Likely to be boycotted as well.

Just don't see any kind of referendum happening that will be a rerun of the 2014 one in next 2 years.

[Pretty Boy]

Why do you think a referendum is inevitable in next 2 years? Under what scenario would that happen?

You mean a S30 referendum that like last time would need majority support in Westminster? Highly unlikely in next 2 years...

I think it's inevitable because, certainly from an incumbent Labour govt perspective, there is an element of smart politics and calculated risk about it.

Continuing to ignore or block a Section 30 only plays into the 'Scotland is being denied it's democratic right' narrative. A narrative I have a certain degree of sympathy with I would add.

Labour could make the referendum happen whilst still campaigning for a No vote (and it might be a good idea to avoid being quite so chummy with the Tories this time).

Personally I'm not that arsed either way about independence now. I'm probably still nominally yes but nowhere near as enthusiastic as I was in 2014. It's not outwith the realms of possibility that I could be one of the minority who could change their minds. There are weird parallels with the Brexit vote, albeit motivated from a better place, where genuine questions are dismissed with a sneering disdain and a 'yoon' insult or 'details, details, we'll sort it out when we are independent'. The EU also seems to have evolved into some mythical neighbourly workers coop in recent years as well, rather than an entity that was just as much a target for criticism form the left as the right. Again given the systems we operate in I'd nominally support rejoining but it's part of a capitalist system that is responsible for a lot of the problems faced by people all over Europe and beyond far more than it is the knight in shining armour solution.

[grunt]

Personally I'm not that arsed either way about independence now. I'm probably still nominally yes but nowhere near as enthusiastic as I was in 2014.
Somewhat surprised to read this. With all that's happened in the UK since 2014, you're now less likely to vote for independence than you were then?

I just can't understand that perspective.

[James310]

I think it's inevitable because, certainly from an incumbent Labour govt perspective, there is an element of smart politics and calculated risk about it.

Continuing to ignore or block a Section 30 only plays into the 'Scotland is being denied it's democratic right' narrative. A narrative I have a certain degree of sympathy with I would add.

Labour could make the referendum happen whilst still campaigning for a No vote (and it might be a good idea to avoid being quite so chummy with the Tories this time).

Personally I'm not that arsed either way about independence now. I'm probably still nominally yes but nowhere near as enthusiastic as I was in 2014. It's not outwith the realms of possibility that I could be one of the minority who could change their minds. There are weird parallels with the Brexit vote, albeit motivated from a better place, where genuine questions are dismissed with a sneering disdain and a 'yoon' insult or 'details, details, we'll sort it out when we are independent'. The EU also seems to have evolved into some mythical neighbourly workers coop in recent years as well, rather than an entity that was just as much a target for criticism form the left as the right. Again given the systems we operate in I'd nominally support rejoining but it's part of a capitalist system that is responsible for a lot of the problems faced by people all over Europe and beyond far more than it is the knight in shining armour solution.

Thanks for the reply, some really good points but I would disagree that Labour would be supportive of a referendum as one of the first things they do in power unless the polls are showing Yes leading by a reasonable margin and for a sustainable period of time. They will want some time to prove to people that change can happen and we don't need Indy to make the changes people want. But we will see.

[Pretty Boy]

Somewhat surprised to read this. With all that's happened in the UK since 2014, you're now less likely to vote for independence than you were then?

I just can't understand that perspective.

For all the Tory government has exacerbated the issues of the last few years, for me many of the biggest issues are global. A world on the cusp of a technological revolution that will make whole sectors redundant and a world facing a climate crisis that almost no one in power seems willing to acknowledge, let alone tackle.

I'm not arguing that independence wouldn't see a degree of improvement in the lives of many people but the more I read the more convinced I am that it's nowhere near radical enough, nowhere near broad enough in it's outlook and there seems little desire among it's most ardent proponents to change that. It just increasingly parochial and narrow to me.

It's a sticking plaster that will make a lot of people very happy but a decade down the line I'd be stunned if we weren't still discussing the same issues. Everything I have read from mainstream pro independence groups essentially advocates a continuation of the same failed systems albeit with more of a social conscience.

[grunt]

A world on the cusp of a technological revolution that will make whole sectors redundant and a world facing a climate crisis that almost no one in power seems willing to acknowledge, let alone tackle.
I recognise this is the wrong thread for this discussion so I'll post this last time, but I would have thought the Scottish Govt's position on climate change would have been cause to vote for independence.

[Hibbyradge]

Let's be honest, no political party wants to work with any other party and that's their honest position going into a general election.

However, in a hung parliament situation if a coalition with Labour would secure a referendum for the SNP, then it'll happen.

And, if a coalition with the SNP would secure a minority Labour government, it'll happen.

Can you imagine the furore if they didn't do a deal and let the Tories in again!?!

[He's here!]

Starmer's cause won't be helped by morons like this among his MPs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-63042145?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=63332139194f716822a36d53%26Suspended%2 0Labour%20MP%20apologises%262022-09-27T16%3A18%3A26.135Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:6942f814-8fea-4dc0-b1b1-cb7adb59c68b&pinned_post_asset_id=63332139194f716822a36d53&pinned_post_type=share

[Keith_M]

Back to the Labour Party......


The new leadership of the Tory Party and their bizarre policies are surely creating the best opportunity the Labour Party has had of winning a GE election in a very long time.

Sadly the next general election doesn't (legally) have to be called before January 2025, so there's a possibility this debacle will carry on for another two years.

[grunt]

Sadly the next general election doesn't (legally) have to be called before January 2025, so there's a possibility this debacle will carry on for another two years.
When you consider the damage done by this Govt in a week, two years feels like a lifetime. Or at least a generation.

[Keith_M]

Let's be honest, no political party wants to work with any other party and that's their honest position going into a general election.

However, in a hung parliament situation if a coalition with Labour would secure a referendum for the SNP, then it'll happen.

And, if a coalition with the SNP would secure a minority Labour government, it'll happen.

Can you imagine the furore if they didn't do a deal and let the Tories in again!?!


Even the Telegraph has said that if an election was called tomorrow then Labour would have a roughly sixty seat majority... which is why it ain't happening any time soon.


If it was close, and a coalition was required, then I think they'd lean towards forming one with the Lib-Dems, but it obviously depends on the numbers required.

[Hibbyradge]

Even the Telegraph has said that if an election was called tomorrow then Labour would have a roughly sixty seat majority... which is why it ain't happening any time soon.


If it was close, and a coalition was required, then I think they'd lean towards forming one with the Lib-Dems, but it obviously depends on the numbers required.

I agree on both counts.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer's cause won't be helped by morons like this among his MPs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-63042145?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=63332139194f716822a36d53%26Suspended%2 0Labour%20MP%20apologises%262022-09-27T16%3A18%3A26.135Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:6942f814-8fea-4dc0-b1b1-cb7adb59c68b&pinned_post_asset_id=63332139194f716822a36d53&pinned_post_type=share

With these things, it’s how it’s dealt with that’s important. Been suspended right away, so that’s a good start.


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[Stairway 2 7]

With these things, it’s how it’s dealt with that’s important. Been suspended right away, so that’s a good start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. I've never got the blaming a party for its mps doing certain act. Whether it's covid related, sexual conduct or personal opinions. It's how the party act is the only way you can judge

[ronaldo7]

Let's be honest, no political party wants to work with any other party and that's their honest position going into a general election.

However, in a hung parliament situation if a coalition with Labour would secure a referendum for the SNP, then it'll happen.

And, if a coalition with the SNP would secure a minority Labour government, it'll happen.

Can you imagine the furore if they didn't do a deal and let the Tories in again!?!

I expected him to be a bit more warm to Scotland, but he was probably taking advice from Scottish labour. Had he taken advice from the Welsh FM it might have been different.

Even if it was a few porkies to charm his way back, as he's not been afraid to do that since before becoming leader.

Voting for Brexit doesn't get him many brownie points, and also the party working with the Tories in many councils across Scotland is a failed policy, they'd have been better sticking to votes on local issues rather than taking the cash in positions of power.

Not sure the Bain principle will be overcome.

[grunt]

I expected him to be a bit more warm to Scotland ...
Yes I think this is what I expected, too.

[Hibbyradge]

I expected him to be a bit more warm to Scotland, but he was probably taking advice from Scottish labour. Had he taken advice from the Welsh FM it might have been different.

Even if it was a few porkies to charm his way back, as he's not been afraid to do that since before becoming leader.

Voting for Brexit doesn't get him many brownie points, and also the party working with the Tories in many councils across Scotland is a failed policy, they'd have been better sticking to votes on local issues rather than taking the cash in positions of power.

Not sure the Bain principle will be overcome.

Did he vote for Brexit?

[He's here!]

You used the word ‘damning’ to describe the EHRC findings before, it’s really a bit of a meaningless catch all phrase. I’m sure you won’t bother to watch the documentary about how it was conducted, but if you do we can discuss in detail.

Repetition of an adjective...I didn't know we were held to such exacting grammatical standards. I'll go with excoriating instead.

I read the link you posted. Is there anything particularly sensational about allegations the blessed Jeremy was done over by malcontents from within? Tends to be the fate of most political leaders, most recently Boris Johnson. More notably it was how Thatcher was toppled.

[ronaldo7]

Did he vote for Brexit?

Yes. Voted it through in parliament.

[ronaldo7]

Yes. Voted it through in parliament.

Whipped the party to do so, and 37 MP's abstained or voted against.

[hibsbollah]

Repetition of an adjective...I didn't know we were held to such exacting grammatical standards. I'll go with excoriating instead.

I read the link you posted. Is there anything particularly sensational about allegations the blessed Jeremy was done over by malcontents from within? Tends to be the fate of most political leaders, most recently Boris Johnson. More notably it was how Thatcher was toppled.

You misunderstand, I’m talking about the allegations that the anti semitism allegations were made up by the accusers, that lies were fed to the ECHR in order to discredit the leadership, and this continues for about three years in a sort of self harming gesture designed to lose their own party the election.

I have to be honest, I don’t blame you for believing they were true, and being less than forensic in your assessment, because they confirm your prejudices so you just automatically swallow it. I’d be exactly the same these days about accusations against the Tory party. You are also allowed to not really care if the allegations are true or not, but are pleased Corbyn is gone because you don’t like him. Which I think is the position of a lot of people.

[Stairway 2 7]

Good line tbf

The Government has lost control of the economy.
And for what? Tax cuts for the richest 1%.
Don't forget. Don't forgive'

-
@Keir_Starmer

[He's here!]

Whipped the party to do so, and 37 MP's abstained or voted against.

Part of the reason he's struggled for credibility after effectively being Westminster's chief remain spokesman for years and agitating for a so-called 'people's vote'.

[He's here!]

You misunderstand, I’m talking about the allegations that the anti semitism allegations were made up by the accusers, that lies were fed to the ECHR in order to discredit the leadership, and this continues for about three years in a sort of self harming gesture designed to lose their own party the election.

I have to be honest, I don’t blame you for believing they were true, and being less than forensic in your assessment, because they confirm your prejudices so you just automatically swallow it. I’d be exactly the same these days about accusations against the Tory party. You are also allowed to not really care if the allegations are true or not, but are pleased Corbyn is gone because you don’t like him. Which I think is the position of a lot of people.

Even Corbyn hasn't denied the party had a problem with anti-Semitism. He even (grudgingly) apologised for it IIRC. It might suit his devotees to believe it was all lies but such allegations stretch credulity.

I'm relieved he's no longer leader for sure but largely because I thought he was making Labour unelectable. The EHRC report simply underlined that.

Can't say I've warmed to Starmer but while he's no Tony Blair at least he seems to understand how to make the party more voter-friendly across the board.

[hibsbollah]

Even Corbyn hasn't denied the party had a problem with anti-Semitism. He even (grudgingly) apologised for it IIRC. It might suit his devotees to believe it was all lies but such allegations stretch credulity.

I'm relieved he's no longer leader for sure but largely because I thought he was making Labour unelectable. The EHRC report simply underlined that.

Can't say I've warmed to Starmer but while he's no Tony Blair at least he seems to understand how to make the party more voter-friendly across the board.

It wasn’t ‘all lies’; AS undoubtedly exists, as it does everywhere, but it was clearly ‘exaggerated for political gain’, which is the clear and obvious truth and the statement that got him banished from the party.

[ronaldo7]

Part of the reason he's struggled for credibility after effectively being Westminster's chief remain spokesman for years and agitating for a so-called 'people's vote'.

He's made pledges all over the place on freedom of movement, and the single market, never mind those that he made to become leader. They'll come back to bite him in the next couple of years.

[Stairway 2 7]

Should have backed them at evens last week, now 1/2 for most seats.

It's a shoe in. Tories are going to have a calamity in the next 3 months. If they keep truss she's hammered, if they replace they look a shambles. Two hard years before next election also, they are a dead parrot

[grunt]

Two hard years before next election also, they are a dead parrotI'm really not sure I can take another two years of this.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm really not sure I can take another two years of this.

If tory backbenchers had any integrity they would call a general election before, so two more years it is then

[Stairway 2 7]

Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
·
58m
MRP Seat Projection:

LAB: 380 (+178)
CON: 174 (-191)
SNP: 51 (+3)
LDM: 21 (+10)
PLC: 4 (=)
GRN: 1 (=)

Labour Majority of 110.
Changes w/ GE2019

[grunt]

Emily Thornberry

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1575098750350958592?s=20&t=4hR-5LuDhjAJeI-k-T2IfQ


I hate the SNP. I hate the SNP.

[DaveF]

Emily Thornberry

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1575098750350958592?s=20&t=4hR-5LuDhjAJeI-k-T2IfQ

I'd guess that she is more of a Tory than she lets on. I think she sent her kids to an exclusive school, and being married to a Sir, I'd imagine her and hubby have a property or two, outside of the budget of those ordinary types she claims to represent.

[Smartie]

Emily Thornberry

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1575098750350958592?s=20&t=4hR-5LuDhjAJeI-k-T2IfQ

It's easy to get wound up about that until you think about your own thoughts on a centre right Labour party who have smothered themselves in union flags and started to sing God Save the King at their conference.

The feeling as far as I am concerned is most definitely mutual.

Although in the interests of any sort of "greater good' it would be nice to think that such sentiments could be put to one side in order to confront the real enemy, the Tories.

Dislike Emily Thornberry and co as I may, it certainly doesn't stop me from being desperate to see them win the next general election.

[Hibbyradge]

Emily Thornberry

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1575098750350958592?s=20&t=4hR-5LuDhjAJeI-k-T2IfQ

I hate the Tories. I hate the Tories.

[He's here!]

Emily Thornberry

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1575098750350958592?s=20&t=4hR-5LuDhjAJeI-k-T2IfQ

Why is this being dug up again now? Pretty sure it was a year or two back she said it.

Quite agree with her mind you.

[grunt]

Quite agree with her mind you.
Why do you hate the SNP?

[Ozyhibby]

Why do you hate the SNP?

Think it’s because the continually provide better services in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Think it’s because the continually provide better services in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Disgusting.
Reminds me of this classic

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FdbP0jaX0AImj1l?format=png&name=small

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/newsdirect/status/1575523192827179008?s=46&t=yu67GV9Gmxg4Fpp6h1PmNQ
[emoji102][emoji102][emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Wow

@BritainElects
·
5m
Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 54% (+9)
CON: 21% (-7)
LDEM: 7% (-2)
GRN: 6% (-1)

via @YouGov, 28 - 29 Sep
Chgs. w/ 25 Sep
https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/09/britainpredicts

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/newsdirect/status/1575523192827179008?s=46&t=yu67GV9Gmxg4Fpp6h1PmNQ
[emoji102][emoji102][emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just came to post the same. Some job the tories have done at blowing themselves up the last 6 months, herculean bawbaggery

[Moulin Yarns]

Think it’s because the continually provide better services in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it's a bit much expecting the SNP to provide services in the rest of the UK 😉

[SHODAN]

They actually found the threshold at which England stops voting for Tories. All it took was literal economic collapse.

[Jones28]

They actually found the threshold at which England stops voting for Tories. All it took was literal economic collapse.

😂

[Pretty Boy]

Starmer just looks like an adult in the room at the moment. Given the calibre of the opposition that's not all that hard but he's had a good couple of weeks.

There's loads that needs to be fleshed out and there needs to be a fair bit more emphasis on progression and redistribution for my tastes. However there is also a lot to like. Nationalising the railways is something I can get behind, reinstating the top rate of tax, a commitment to green energy and the creation of a state owned green energy company are all policies most on the left should be able to support even if they don't go as far as we would like. There was a traditional left wing fringe event at conference the other night and in typically modest terms John McDonnell declared there was 'more John McDonnell than Tony Blair in that speech'. He's hardly someone that can be tagged a 'red Tory (it's worth noting his comment was in praise of the left for keeping the pressure on Starmer rather than just outright praise).

It's entirely possible to balance democratic socialism with the free market. Finland has managed it for decades with the current coalition including the Social Democrats, Greens and Left Alliance among others. We are probably some way from that but replacing the current incumbents in Westminster with a party that actually delivers the ideas put forward this week would be a tentative step back in the right (left) direction.

The challenge now for all the opposition parties is to force a general election asap. The less time this shower have to continue inflicting damage the better.

[Bostonhibby]

They actually found the threshold at which England stops voting for Tories. All it took was literal economic collapse.5 days, world beating, again.

That'll show Johnny Foreigner.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

They actually found the threshold at which England stops voting for Tories. All it took was literal economic collapse.

Obviously a bit of tongue in cheek here but I think economic turmoil has probably been largely responsible for the last 2 changes of government in the UK (probably more than that but the whole 74-79 period is not something I'm at all versed in).

Major's Tories never really recovered from Black Wednesday' and Gordon Brown was tarnished by the 2008 GFC despite it being largely caused by factors outwith his control. Of course in both instances it required opposition leaders who were credible. It's debatable if Foot and Kinnock ever were but hard as it is to believe now Blair was unbelievably popular, even stubborn old lefties like my grandad were willing to get behind him, for a time anyway. Cameron was and is a dick but he looked more like leadership material than the parade of dicks who went before him ever did.

Starmer has that same feel. I'd have preferred Corbyn but he was a figure that made mobilising the opposition too easy. Starmer is a million miles removed from my ideal but he's infinitely preferable to what's on the other side of the dispatch box. For all his faults I don't believe him to be completely without morals or social conscience. I can't say the same of any of the current cabinet.

[Kato]

Why do you hate the SNP?Because they are trying to destroy the UK?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[AgentDaleCooper]

Because they are trying to destroy the UK?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk


if you mean the UK as an institution, what's not to like there?

[Bostonhibby]

Because they are trying to destroy the UK?

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkYou're mixing them up with the ERG tories I think.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Kato]

if you mean the UK as an institution, what's not to like there?It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Kato]

You're mixing them up with the ERG tories I think.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkIrony, eh.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

Think it’s because the continually provide better services in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd they do it deliberately :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

Irony, eh.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkIndeed.[emoji106]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Think it’s because the continually provide better services in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The worst thing is that they're doing it on purpose.

[Jack]

They actually found the threshold at which England stops voting for Tories. All it took was literal economic collapse.

I think the wannabe tory beneficiaries have just realised they don't earn anywhere near £150,000.

[JimBHibees]

If tory backbenchers had any integrity they would call a general election before, so two more years it is then

There is the problem then

[Northernhibee]

PeoplePolling with a 30 point lead for Labour.

[Ozyhibby]

Labour offended by saltire.

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1575829030431080450?s=46&t=MW1oE8T665Fgmrg7hp2QAQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour offended by saltire.

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1575829030431080450?s=46&t=MW1oE8T665Fgmrg7hp2QAQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I watched it earlier and it is not the saltire that offended him so much as the word yes, which is apparently political. 😉

[Stairway 2 7]

I watched it earlier and it is not the saltire that offended him so much as the word yes, which is apparently political. 😉

It is, even though its a good flag ha

[Moulin Yarns]

It is, even though its a good flag ha

I have one, bought it from Chris Law when he was touring with the Spirit of Independence in 2014.

[Stairway 2 7]

I have one, bought it from Chris Law when he was touring with the Spirit of Independence in 2014.

My daughter will be taking hers, as we march on the mile on Saturday 👍

[hibsbollah]

Peter Osborne on problematic reporting, the media silence on the Al Jazeera documentary’s findings, and the role of the BBC.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-labour-files-al-jazeera-revelations-blown-hole-media-corbyn-narrative?fbclid=IwAR3iKvdeP1xr5PVncLCInT1vX5tMAGP U7vLvS4BYY-RF0pddvSKjwqKjYNk

[Stairway 2 7]

AdamBienkov
·
13m
New Comres poll has the largest Labour lead they have ever recorded.

LAB: 50% (+7)
CON: 25% (-4)
LDEM: 11% (-1)
GRN: 3% (-1)
SNP: 3% (-2)

[Stairway 2 7]

electpoliticsuk
·
14h
Westminster Voting Intention (Red Wall):

LAB: 61% (+12)
CON: 23% (-11)
LDM: 7% (+2)
GRN: 4% (=)
REF: 3% (-4)

Via @RedfieldWilton, On 3-4 October,
Changes w/ 19-20 September.

[ronaldo7]

Send them home. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1577314725389602828

[hibsbollah]

Send them home. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1577314725389602828

Meanwhile we have a massive skills shortage and no one to fill the vacancies we have, skilled AND unskilled.

[ronaldo7]

Meanwhile we have a massive skills shortage and no one to fill the vacancies we have, skilled AND unskilled.

I'd have thought they'd have just let the Tories get on with it. She's got form on benefits too.

[Stairway 2 7]

DevanSinha
·
1h
Latest Lab leads:

Deltapoll (6-7th Oct) +25%
Omnisis (6-7th) +27%
Techne (5-6th) +22%
PPL Polling (6th) +32%
Red&Wil (5th) +28%
ComRes (30-2nd) +25%
Opinium (29-30th Sept) +19%
Survation (29th) +21%
YouGov (28-19th) +33%
BMG (27-29th) +17%
FindoutNow (23-27th) +18%

Avg: +24.3%

[Hibrandenburg]

Send them home. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1577314725389602828

I guess that's how Labour intend to win back Tory voters.

[He's here!]

I saw Keith Brown putting the boot into Labour at the SNP conference. 'Just another Tony Blair' apparently. I'm unclear how that is a criticism. Surely that's exactly the what Labour need. Blair's New Labour all but swept the boards in Scotland when he came to power.

Brown really is a charmless individual. No wonder they get him out the way first.

[Moulin Yarns]

I saw Keith Brown putting the boot into Labour at the SNP conference. 'Just another Tony Blair' apparently. I'm unclear how that is a criticism. Surely that's exactly the what Labour need. Blair's New Labour all but swept the boards in Scotland when he came to power.

Brown really is a charmless individual. No wonder they get him out the way first.

But did he mention independence? 🤔

[Jack]

But did he mention independence? 🤔

Not when Hibs were playing.

[Keith_M]

I saw Keith Brown putting the boot into Labour at the SNP conference. 'Just another Tony Blair' apparently. I'm unclear how that is a criticism. Surely that's exactly the what Labour need. Blair's New Labour all but swept the boards in Scotland when he came to power.

Brown really is a charmless individual. No wonder they get him out the way first.



I totally get that a lot of people were happy with Blair, and would be happy to have somebody just like him in charge of the party, but not everybody was a fan.

I thought he was actually OK, at first... until he jumped into bed with Bush Jr.

[Smartie]

I totally get that a lot of people were happy with Blair, and would be happy to have somebody just like him in charge of the party, but not everybody was a fan.

I thought he was actually OK, at first... until he jumped into bed with Bush Jr.

It's a low bar but the fact remains that for most of us under the age of 45, Blair will have been the best Prime Minister we've had in our lifetimes, even allowing for having the mother of all stains on his record.

Would he even have ever got in had England had a Tory party to vote for that wasn't an unelectable shambles during his time in power? Who knows.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a low bar but the fact remains that for most of us under the age of 45, Blair will have been the best Prime Minister we've had in our lifetimes, even allowing for having the mother of all stains on his record.

Would he even have ever got in had England had a Tory party to vote for that wasn't an unelectable shambles during his time in power? Who knows.

I think people forget the achievements of that Labour govt, particularly between the 01 election and the financial crash. They stuck rigidly to the spending pledges in their manifesto post 97 but in 01 the spending taps were well and truly turned on. It wasn't particularly redistributive and there was a lot I didn't like but the fact is a huge number of people were a damn site more prosperous than they are now. The idea that it doesn't matter if Labour or the Tories win the next WM election is a nonsense. There's no desire to canonise Starmer et al from me but we'd be far better off with them than a continuation of Truss and her cabal.

An interesting footnote is post the financial crisis that saw the 'same old Labour' rhetoric rolled out the UK was actually seeing a slow but solid recovery. Cameron and Osborne aided by the inexplicably popular Clegg bulldozed that with their austerity measures.

[He's here!]

It's a low bar but the fact remains that for most of us under the age of 45, Blair will have been the best Prime Minister we've had in our lifetimes, even allowing for having the mother of all stains on his record.

Would he even have ever got in had England had a Tory party to vote for that wasn't an unelectable shambles during his time in power? Who knows.

No question the Tories were on borrowed time under Major, whose win over Kinnock in 1992 was something of a shock. Think the Sun helped him with a powerful anti-Labour election day front page in the days when papers still carried genuine influence.

Blair's success wasn't an act of genius. He just understood that by moving the party to the centre ground New Labour would carry genuine electoral clout.

Little wonder Starmer is trying to follow suit. His biggest problem there is that his version of Blair is charisma-free. However, assuming the Tories continue to self-destruct that shouldn't stand in the way of Labour winning an outright majority - a scenario which would hopefully spell bad news for the SNP as it would kick the anti-Tory crutch from under them and give voters in Scotland back the chance to have a say in who governs the UK. I guess that's why Sturgeon is going all out to tar them as Tory bedfellows.

[Jack]

No question the Tories were on borrowed time under Major, whose win over Kinnock in 1992 was something of a shock. Think the Sun helped him with a powerful anti-Labour election day front page in the days when papers still carried genuine influence.

Blair's success wasn't an act of genius. He just understood that by moving the party to the centre ground New Labour would carry genuine electoral clout.

Little wonder Starmer is trying to follow suit. His biggest problem there is that his version of Blair is charisma-free. However, assuming the Tories continue to self-destruct that shouldn't stand in the way of Labour winning an outright majority - a scenario which would hopefully spell bad news for the SNP as it would kick the anti-Tory crutch from under them and give voters in Scotland back the chance to have a say in who governs the UK. I guess that's why Sturgeon is going all out to tar them as Tory bedfellows.

Maybe it's because all over Scotland they are bedfellows.

[wookie70]

No question the Tories were on borrowed time under Major, whose win over Kinnock in 1992 was something of a shock. Think the Sun helped him with a powerful anti-Labour election day front page in the days when papers still carried genuine influence.

Blair's success wasn't an act of genius. He just understood that by moving the party to the centre ground New Labour would carry genuine electoral clout.

Little wonder Starmer is trying to follow suit. His biggest problem there is that his version of Blair is charisma-free. However, assuming the Tories continue to self-destruct that shouldn't stand in the way of Labour winning an outright majority - a scenario which would hopefully spell bad news for the SNP as it would kick the anti-Tory crutch from under them and give voters in Scotland back the chance to have a say in who governs the UK. I guess that's why Sturgeon is going all out to tar them as Tory bedfellows.

That centre ground is a good deal further right than it was under Blair though. Yes Starmer will be better than Truss or whatever half wit comes next but we are getting closer to the two main choices being far right or centre right

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63208987

The clear-out of Corbynites continues.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63208987

The clear-out of Corbynites continues.

From reading that report, it doesn't look like he was deselected because he was a Corbyn supporter.

[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63208987

The clear-out of Corbynites continues.If only the Tories cleared out the Putinites.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

From reading that report, it doesn't look like he was deselected because he was a Corbyn supporter.

He’s clearly suggesting there was foul play. Asking for the e ballot info as proof. If you didn’t watch The Labour Files you’d assume it was all just sour grapes.

[Hibbyradge]

He’s clearly suggesting there was foul play. Asking for the e ballot info as proof. If you didn’t watch The Labour Files you’d assume it was all just sour grapes.

He is, but foul play was alleged when he won in 2019.

I'm not taking sides here, merely pointing out that it most likely wasn't an anti-Corbyn purge as was suggested.

[hibsbollah]

Sultana survives deselection.

When the Labour trigger ballot process began, a so-called "Labour source" said “every branch is ready to press the button” to deselect me.

Well, the result was announced last night and I won in every branch and participating affiliate.

Thank you to everyone who supported me! 🤍

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1580204711025971200

John Nicolson on Sir Keir. When did muscular Unionism infect the Labour party.

[ronaldo7]

Labour lords a leaping, again.

Ruth Smeeth asked to join the labour team in the lords.

[Stairway 2 7]

Brilliant but heartbreaking. Towards Cameron but applies now

https://mobile.twitter.com/RaggedTP/status/1581296098215596033

[Glory Lurker]

Could Starmer get a bigger UJ to stand in front of?

[hibsbollah]

Brilliant but heartbreaking. Towards Cameron but applies now

https://mobile.twitter.com/RaggedTP/status/1581296098215596033

That’s REAL politics.

[ronaldo7]

Is Anas Sarwar in the same party as this guy. It seems the Tories ripping at the budgets of Wales are having an effect on their ability to manage the NHS.

https://twitter.com/GillibrandPeter/status/1582360897645064192?s=20&t=dnZbxo_Wq9f2_TRMDPzbEQ

[Jack]

Is Anas Sarwar in the same party as this guy. It seems the Tories ripping at the budgets of Wales are having an effect on their ability to manage the NHS.

https://twitter.com/GillibrandPeter/status/1582360897645064192?s=20&t=dnZbxo_Wq9f2_TRMDPzbEQ

Well done that man. I'd make my mark beside Mark!

[Stairway 2 7]

Is Anas Sarwar in the same party as this guy. It seems the Tories ripping at the budgets of Wales are having an effect on their ability to manage the NHS.

https://twitter.com/GillibrandPeter/status/1582360897645064192?s=20&t=dnZbxo_Wq9f2_TRMDPzbEQ

Brilliant. That's my hope for post independence, the left of Labour having a voice. Sarwar and others that are inflated due to toeing the party line will be back at the rear of the chamber. Same goes for Ross, who knows what the little twerp believes. He just defends mummy and daddy down south. The Labour Party will be unburdened post independence and worthwhile, for a change

[weecounty hibby]

Drakeford seems like a principled guy and one who looks like puts country before party. We can only dream of a Labour leader in Scotland who wants to stand up for the country and is opposed to the Tories. Sadly we have got one who wants to side with the Tories and is always happy to talk down Scotland

[James310]

Drakeford seems like a principled guy and one who looks like puts country before party. We can only dream of a Labour leader in Scotland who wants to stand up for the country and is opposed to the Tories. Sadly we have got one who wants to side with the Tories and is always happy to talk down Scotland

How does Anas Sarwar "talk down Scotland". Any examples? Do you mean he talks down the SNP, who are not Scotland the country. Holding the Scottish Government to account is not anti Scottish, I still struggle to understand why so many people see a criticism of the SNP as being anti Scottish or why they get accused of talking Scotland down.

The country is not the government, the government is not the party. Do you think Scotland and the SNP are the same thing?

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63344752

This kind of stuff seems endless among MPs (and indeed MSPs).

He'll be glad the latest goings-on at No 10 will push this story down the news agenda.

[archie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63344752

This kind of stuff seems endless among MPs (and indeed MSPs).

He'll be glad the latest goings-on at No 10 will push this story down the news agenda.I think the repeated cross party nature of these cases is further undermining faith in politics. That and the differential way that similar cases are treated.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63344752

This kind of stuff seems endless among MPs (and indeed MSPs).

He'll be glad the latest goings-on at No 10 will push this story down the news agenda.

There's no story anymore.

He's resigned. There's only a story when they try to hang on to their jobs.

[degenerated]

Who knew the Bain principle extended to twitter?

https://twitter.com/LaurenJTownsend/status/1583910058793914368?t=RUMrsjA8393cTX0STI6u-g&s=19

[Hibbyradge]

Who knew the Bain principle extended to twitter?

https://twitter.com/LaurenJTownsend/status/1583910058793914368?t=RUMrsjA8393cTX0STI6u-g&s=19

It does seem that she's been badly treated over very minor issues, but I imagine that there are more reasons than the 2 she mentions.

Surely she'd appeal that decision if there weren't stronger reasons?

[Stairway 2 7]

It does seem that she's been badly treated over very minor issues, but I imagine that there are more reasons than the 2 she mentions.

Surely she'd appeal that decision if there weren't stronger reasons?

She's hardly the first. The purge of the left has been happening all year. The only thing I would say to get while it is obviously disgusting, she should have been talking up when it was happening to her peers, solidarity in numbers

[Hibbyradge]

She's hardly the first. The purge of the left has been happening all year. The only thing I would say to get while it is obviously disgusting, she should have been talking up when it was happening to her peers, solidarity in numbers

Technically, she's not been purged. She still has her council seat but has been stopped for applying to stand as Parliamentary candidate. We've no idea if she would have been chosen.

However, it seems that prevention is better than cure!

[ronaldo7]

Who knew the Bain principle extended to twitter?

https://twitter.com/LaurenJTownsend/status/1583910058793914368?t=RUMrsjA8393cTX0STI6u-g&s=19

The right wing blockers in the Labour party are a well oiled machine. Take them on at your peril.

The lady in question does seem a good sort, volunteering, and having the backing of many unions.

Sir Keir and Lord Mandelson will be pleased.

[Stairway 2 7]

Starmer not only pro keeping brexit

@GeorgeMonbiot
·
8m
FGS. Starmer has come out in support of the government's Public Order Bill, the most repressive legislation of the modern era.
Does he really believe this sh*t, or is everything he does an attempt to appease the Sun and the Daily Mail, both owned by overseas oligarchs

This is how a country goes to ruin: through the politicians of both main parties paying more attention to the demands of two extremist billionaires than to the needs of 67 million citizens

[hibsbollah]

Starmer not only pro keeping brexit

@GeorgeMonbiot
·
8m
FGS. Starmer has come out in support of the government's Public Order Bill, the most repressive legislation of the modern era.
Does he really believe this sh*t, or is everything he does an attempt to appease the Sun and the Daily Mail, both owned by overseas oligarchs

This is how a country goes to ruin: through the politicians of both main parties paying more attention to the demands of two extremist billionaires than to the needs of 67 million citizens

It’s 1 year in prison for these young people who as they see it, are doing something to draw attention to the climate catastrophe which has been abandoned as a topic by society. Whether you like them or not, approve of the tactics or not, are on the same or different side of the culture wars, it’s astonishingly authoritarian and will ruin these peoples lives. A year in prison is totally disproportionate.

Mind you, Sir Keir has got that sort of background as DPP. Shouldn’t come as a surprise.

[Hibbyradge]

Mind you, Sir Keir has got that sort of background as DPP. Shouldn’t come as a surprise.

That's a cheap jibe. You're better than that.

Starmer never sentenced anyone in his life.

[greenginger]

That's a cheap jibe. You're better than that.

Starmer never sentenced anyone in his life.

Maybe not, but as a prosecutor he has obviously asked for jail sentences for offenders , maybe even some excessive sentences.

[hibsbollah]

That's a cheap jibe. You're better than that.

Starmer never sentenced anyone in his life.

It’s who he didn’t choose to prosecute that I remember, I think because I started the thread on the poor man when it happened. RIP Ian Tomlinson.

If police killing people with impunity is wrong in Iran or the USA it’s wrong here too.

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe not, but as a prosecutor he has obviously asked for jail sentences for offenders , maybe even some excessive sentences.

We need prosecutors to have any semblance of justice.

It would be a bit strange if he asked for them to be freed.

[Hibbyradge]

It’s who he didn’t choose to prosecute that I remember, I think because I started the thread on the poor man when it happened. RIP Ian Tomlinson.

If police killing people with impunity is wrong in Iran or the USA it’s wrong here too.

Tomlinson wasn't originally prosecuted because of conflicting evidence which would have seen the policeman freed.

So, it was a good decision because, if he'd been tried and freed, he couldn't have been re-prosecuted which he was, successfully.

I agree with your second sentence, of course.

[hibsbollah]

Tomlinson wasn't originally prosecuted because of conflicting evidence which would have seen the policeman freed.

So, it was a good decision because, if he'd been tried and freed, he couldn't have been re-prosecuted which he was, successfully.

I agree with your second sentence, of course.

He wasn’t ever prosecuted. The police dismissed him, on a full pension. They then paid undisclosed damages to the family and eventually conceded that the Met caused the death. I’d question whether that’s proper justice.

[Hibbyradge]

He wasn’t ever prosecuted. The police dismissed him, on a full pension. They then paid undisclosed damages to the family and eventually conceded that the Met caused the death. I’d question whether that’s proper justice.

You're right, I should have said unsuccessfully, but he was subsequently prosecuted and found not guilty.

Have I got that wrong?

He was dismissed for gross misconduct. Would he have kept his pension?

[hibsbollah]

You're right, I should have said unsuccessfully, but he was subsequently prosecuted and found not guilty.

Is that wrong?

I think so, yes.

[hibsbollah]

You're right, I should have said unsuccessfully, but he was subsequently prosecuted and found not guilty.

Have I got that wrong?

He was dismissed for gross misconduct. Would he have kept his pension?

Yes he kept his pension.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19620627.amp

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/19/simon-harwood-not-guilty-ian-tomlinson

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/19/simon-harwood-not-guilty-ian-tomlinson

:dunno:

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn’t think you were wrong about the not guilty verdict. I think it was morally wrong that he was cleared. And that doesn’t justify Starmers decision not to prosecute, quite the opposite. It was either a strategic mistake or a deliberate whitewash.

[Hibbyradge]

Yes he kept his pension.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19620627.amp

That's sticks in the craw, but he was found not guilty and that's the Met's employment rules

[Hibbyradge]

:dunno:

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn’t think you were wrong about the not guilty verdict. I think it was morally wrong that he was cleared. And that doesn’t justify Starmers decision not to prosecute, quite the opposite. It was either a strategic mistake or a deliberate whitewash.

He didn't prosecute because he would have lost. The "expert" witnesses disagreed.

[hibsbollah]

He didn't prosecute because he would have lost. The "expert" witnesses disagreed.

Well we’ll never know now, will we? Because he was cleared in one environment doesn’t mean he would have been
Cleared in another. Lots of things can play out in a court of law.

[Hibbyradge]

Well we’ll never know now, will we? Because he was cleared in one environment doesn’t mean he would have been
Cleared in another. Lots of things can play out in a court of law.

True, but you've derided Starmer for his professional judgment which is much more likely to be correct than your guess or mine.

If you have "experts" disagreeing in any case, it's unlikely that a jury is going to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt. If I was on a jury in a trial when that happened, I might decide one way or another based on my personal bias but that's not justice.

And that's what you're doing when critising Starmer.

[hibsbollah]

True, but you've derided Starmer for his professional judgment which is much more likely to be correct than your guess or mine.

If you have "experts" disagreeing in any case, it's unlikely that a jury is going to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt. If I was on a jury in a trial when that happened, I might decide one way or another based on my personal bias but that's not justice.

And that's what you're doing when critising Starmer.

You can believe that I criticise Starmer because he’s of the ‘wrong’ wing of the party and I’m determined to find something I don’t like about him. But actually I think he’s an absolute fraud of a man, who won the leadership election by promising one thing and then doing the exact opposite. And that has been a pattern throughout his career. He’s not good enough for me. I will hold my nose and vote for him if the alternative is the current lunatics at the top of the Conservative party, but that’s not a ringing endorsement for any man.

I think he either chose not to prosecute Tomlinsons killer because he was leant on by the corrupt Met or because he felt political pressure not to. Either way, that man is now probably enjoying his retirement.

[Hibbyradge]

I think he either chose not to prosecute Tomlinsons killer because he was leant on by the corrupt Met or because he felt political pressure not to. Either way, that man is now probably enjoying his retirement.

The evidence and explanation tells us the reason for the decision not to prosecute, the eventual trial suggests that original decision was correct, but you've chosen to believe it was corrupt because of your own prejudices. That's verging on conspiracy theory.

I abhor police violence, and injustice, of any kind, upsets me deeply, but the CPS has decisions to make in every case that comes across their desks. On this occasion, it's you that's being unfair.

I'm not going to argue about your reasons for disliking him politically, that's your right, but suggesting, with no evidence, that he's corrupt, isn't.

FWIW, I'll be holding my nose when I vote for him too. I just hope he's saying one thing to get elected and his actions will be more palatable.

[hibsbollah]

The evidence and explanation tells us the reason for the decision not to prosecute, the eventual trial suggests that original decision was correct, but you've chosen to believe it was corrupt because of your own prejudices. That's verging on conspiracy theory.

I abhor police violence, and injustice, of any kind, upsets me deeply, but the CPS has decisions to make in every case that comes across their desks. On this occasion, it's you that's being unfair.

I'm not going to argue about your reasons for disliking him politically, that's your right, but suggesting, with no evidence, that he's corrupt, isn't.

FWIW, I'll be holding my nose when I vote for him too. I just hope he's saying one thing to get elected and his actions will be more palatable.

I absolutely agree with your final sentence :agree:

[archie]

I've seen a lot of this stuff about Starmer. The worst was Johnson's disgraceful Saville smear. I suspect we will see more with a likely Labour government.

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63405307

Not really sure what was wrong with this.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63405307

Not really sure what was wrong with this.

There doesn't seem to be a great deal wrong, but it was pretty much unanimously agreed that the election of Obama, also a multi millionaire, was a win for black representation.

I realise Sunak is much wealthier, but to most ordinary people, the difference between £70m and £700m makes no difference to them.

It's the fact that Sunak's politics are diametrically opposed to hers that made her say that, but that hasn't got anything to do with his race. The 2 issues are separate.

[wookie70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63405307

Not really sure what was wrong with this.

Nothing wrong with it at all.

[Kato]

A right wing Labour Party that could happily accommodate Tory grandees like Major and Clark. I suppose that's slightly more palatable than the Fascist Kleptocrats we have in charge but the look of the future Labour Party is bending with the civilising offensive currently underway.

Some choice.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

A right wing Labour Party that could happily accommodate Tory grandees like Major and Clark. I suppose that's slightly more palatable than the Fascist Kleptocrats we have in charge but the look of the future Labour Party is bending with the civilising offensive currently underway.

Some choice.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Polling shows the voters the tories are losing are from the left( centre right). It'll be a continuous cycle of your blairs, Cameron, starmers ect a horrible swirl of two turds. Plated up to us like we have a personal choice of who runs us

[He's here!]

There doesn't seem to be a great deal wrong, but it was pretty much unanimously agreed that the election of Obama, also a multi millionaire, was a win for black representation.

I realise Sunak is much wealthier, but to most ordinary people, the difference between £70m and £700m makes no difference to them.

It's the fact that Sunak's politics are diametrically opposed to hers that made her say that, but that hasn't got anything to do with his race. The 2 issues are separate.

As Angela Rayner says: "Sometimes it's nice to stop and look at something for what it is and say this is a good thing,"

She also says she has no problem with people being "filthy rich"...quite the reversal of the Corbyn line:

Angela Rayner: I'm relaxed about the rich... if they pay tax - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63415681)

[hibsbollah]

As Angela Rayner says: "Sometimes it's nice to stop and look at something for what it is and say this is a good thing,"

She also says she has no problem with people being "filthy rich"...quite the reversal of the Corbyn line:

Angela Rayner: I'm relaxed about the rich... if they pay tax - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63415681)

It’s irrelevant whether Rayner is ‘relaxed’ about the super rich or not. It is relevant whether they are actually pursued for what they owe and what they are failing to contribute to the state, which was Labours platform in 2017. (And the platform that Starmer won the leadership on in 2020, of course).

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/31/corbyns-super-rich-targets-who-are-they-and-what-could-he-do

[cabbageandribs1875]

great speech, especially at 0.50 ;) this is what a labour party of old would have supported, instead they have........... Sir Starmer and his new moderate Tory party :)

Irvine Welsh on Twitter: "WHAT A GADGE https://t.co/D4qTbLXlYu" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/1588101256731656192)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Diane Abbott, "if you treat migrants like rapists they are going to act like rapists" :rolleyes:

Hackney MP Diane Abbott doubles down on comments about rape at refugee hotel in London after furious backlash (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/hackney-mp-diane-abbott-doubles-down-on-comments-about-rape-at-refugee-hotel-in-london-after-furious-backlash/ar-AA13KfAD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=55504fadc7994639be2b59a614e221a8)


get us away from these westminster politicians ffs

[He's here!]

Diane Abbott, "if you treat migrants like rapists they are going to act like rapists" :rolleyes:

Hackney MP Diane Abbott doubles down on comments about rape at refugee hotel in London after furious backlash (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/hackney-mp-diane-abbott-doubles-down-on-comments-about-rape-at-refugee-hotel-in-london-after-furious-backlash/ar-AA13KfAD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=55504fadc7994639be2b59a614e221a8)


get us away from these westminster politicians ffs

Jeez, Abbott has been a liability for Labour for years now.

[Ozyhibby]

Jeez, Abbott has been a liability for Labour for years now.

Absolutely. It’s why Andrew Neil used her for ‘balance’ on his politics show for years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hiber-nation]

Starmer being grilled by Martin Geissler. Absolutely hopeless. This has confirmed that Scotland is bottom of their priority list for some time yet. But we all know that.

[DaveF]

Starmer being grilled by Martin Geissler. Absolutely hopeless. This has confirmed that Scotland is bottom of their priority list for some time yet. But we all know that.

What an absolute pile of steaming ***** he's coming out with.

[Hiber-nation]

What an absolute pile of steaming ***** he's coming out with.

It's an utter embarrassment, he keeps looking at his notes, it's clear Scotland hasn't even figured in any of Labour's thinking.

[DaveF]

It's an utter embarrassment, he keeps looking at his notes, it's clear Scotland hasn't even figured in any of Labour's thinking.

Don't think he has notes but his body language shows he is struggling and it's, erm, all about priorities. Regardless of whatever the question is.

[Hiber-nation]

Don't think he has notes but his body language shows he is struggling and it's, erm, all about priorities. Regardless of whatever the question is.

I was wondering why he kept looking down when he was floundering.

Surprised at how probing Geissler's questioning was.

[hibsbollah]

It's an utter embarrassment, he keeps looking at his notes, it's clear Scotland hasn't even figured in any of Labour's thinking.

It’s surely unprecedented that such an unimpressive ‘leader’ as Starmer has a 26% lead in voting intention polling.

[DaveF]

It’s surely unprecedented that such an unimpressive ‘leader’ as Starmer has a 26% lead in voting intention polling.

He said nothing that would make me vote labour. In fact, his doubling down on denying a vote put me off labour even more.

What's his approval rating or voting intention numbers in Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

He said nothing that would make me vote labour. In fact, his doubling down on denying a vote put me off labour even more.

What's his approval rating or voting intention numbers in Scotland?

Almost unchanged as far as taking votes from SNP. May take some votes from their Tory partners but that’s about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Starmer being grilled by Martin Geissler. Absolutely hopeless. This has confirmed that Scotland is bottom of their priority list for some time yet. But we all know that.

I didn't see the interview but the headlines from it imply that it was primarily about there being too many staff from overseas in the NHS?
Was Scotland's future touched on to any significant extent?

Keir Starmer: Too many people from overseas recruited to NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

He gave more detailed interviews about Scotland a couple of days ago:

Starmer: Labour has ‘confidence to fight the SNP as well as the Tories’ | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-snp-scotland-labour-party-ian-murray-b1037474.html)

[Jack]

I didn't see the interview but the headlines from it imply that it was primarily about there being too many staff from overseas in the NHS?
Was Scotland's future touched on to any significant extent?

Keir Starmer: Too many people from overseas recruited to NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

He gave more detailed interviews about Scotland a couple of days ago:

Starmer: Labour has ‘confidence to fight the SNP as well as the Tories’ | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-snp-scotland-labour-party-ian-murray-b1037474.html)

You have to register to read the Standard article but I can imagine what it says as it's been the same story from all their national and branch office spokespeople since they were hounded out in 2007. And I think a nation (both sides) gasped at the love in and joint celebrations after the independence vote.

And fighting the torys in Scotland??? They're in bed with each other in so many councils the only fighting will be over the duvet!

[SHODAN]

The bare minimum you'd expect from Labour during an immigration dead cat is some sort of rebuttal to the Tories' slander of migrants.

My partner is Greek-Albanian and an NHS worker. Go **** yourself Starmer.

[Hiber-nation]

I didn't see the interview but the headlines from it imply that it was primarily about there being too many staff from overseas in the NHS?
Was Scotland's future touched on to any significant extent?

Keir Starmer: Too many people from overseas recruited to NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

He gave more detailed interviews about Scotland a couple of days ago:

Starmer: Labour has ‘confidence to fight the SNP as well as the Tories’ | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-snp-scotland-labour-party-ian-murray-b1037474.html)

That was only the opening part. It was mainly about Independence and Brexit and Starmer had no answers that would encourage anyone to switch from SNP to Labour. In fact I'm sure he will have had the opposite effect.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't see the interview but the headlines from it imply that it was primarily about there being too many staff from overseas in the NHS?
Was Scotland's future touched on to any significant extent?

Keir Starmer: Too many people from overseas recruited to NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

He gave more detailed interviews about Scotland a couple of days ago:

Starmer: Labour has ‘confidence to fight the SNP as well as the Tories’ | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-snp-scotland-labour-party-ian-murray-b1037474.html)

So the NHS is struggling to recruit in a number of areas, radiology was one mentioned recently, but starmer doesn't want to fill those vacancies with talent from abroad?

What is wrong with them?

[Ozyhibby]

I didn't see the interview but the headlines from it imply that it was primarily about there being too many staff from overseas in the NHS?
Was Scotland's future touched on to any significant extent?

Keir Starmer: Too many people from overseas recruited to NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

He gave more detailed interviews about Scotland a couple of days ago:

Starmer: Labour has ‘confidence to fight the SNP as well as the Tories’ | Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-snp-scotland-labour-party-ian-murray-b1037474.html)

I haven’t seen the interview yet either but the quotes in that article are worthy of Braverman or Farage.
I think Starmer more than the Tories is the best example of the different directions Scotland and England are going.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

So the NHS is struggling to recruit in a number of areas, radiology was one mentioned recently, but starmer doesn't want to fill those vacancies with talent from abroad?

What is wrong with them?
"British jobs for British people". Farage said that, and here Starmer repeats it. (Gordon Brown said it too).

[grunt]

It was mainly about Independence and Brexit and Starmer had no answers that would encourage anyone to switch from SNP to Labour. In fact I'm sure he will have had the opposite effect.Here's a clip:

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1589225145780117504?s=20&t=paFxSJvu_uQuVxHyzVdwYw

[Skol]

Almost unchanged as far as taking votes from SNP. May take some votes from their Tory partners but that’s about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tory partners. Oh dear.

[Smartie]

Pretty good stuff that from Geissler. I'm sure he's a unionist but it's good to see that there are some at the BBC who have sufficient journalistic integrity to be asking the tough questions that the people of all persuasions in Scotland want answered.

And fair play to Starmer for bumbling through his answers when he could have been in a fridge.

This is a better broadcasting and better democracy than we've been used to lately.

[cabbageandribs1875]

UK agrees to negotiate with Mauritius over handover of Chagos Islands | Chagos Islands | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/03/uk-agrees-to-negotiate-with-mauritius-over-handover-of-chagos-islands?s=09)


In one of the most shameful episodes of British postwar colonialism, the then Labour government expelled the Chagossians because under international law it could only separate the archipelago from Mauritius if it had no permanent population. The archipelago was reconstituted as a colonial entity as the British Indian Ocean Territory, within which Diego Garcia and the US base could rest. All Chagossians were removed from the islands by the end of 1971


Labour, as bad as the ******* Tories :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

looks like a tory
acts like a Tory
sounds like a Tory
IS a Tory

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312812857_2486762338180021_1391905863375127952_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=M8upyfbtw_sAX832Bpn&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCPs2aanukZRBqdklj8WT_IG8rrsjcarC5oaR_i5zcM wA&oe=636CA98B:agree:

[James310]

looks like a tory
acts like a Tory
sounds like a Tory
IS a Tory

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312812857_2486762338180021_1391905863375127952_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=M8upyfbtw_sAX832Bpn&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCPs2aanukZRBqdklj8WT_IG8rrsjcarC5oaR_i5zcM wA&oe=636CA98B:agree:

Your graphic says support for Labour is "rock bottom" but recent polls show support for Scottish Labour increasing.26278

[Ozyhibby]

looks like a tory
acts like a Tory
sounds like a Tory
IS a Tory

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312812857_2486762338180021_1391905863375127952_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=M8upyfbtw_sAX832Bpn&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCPs2aanukZRBqdklj8WT_IG8rrsjcarC5oaR_i5zcM wA&oe=636CA98B:agree:

At least he has made clear he expects white doctors in the NHS.


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[archie]

At least he has made clear he expects white doctors in the NHS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No he didn't.

[Hibbyradge]

UK agrees to negotiate with Mauritius over handover of Chagos Islands | Chagos Islands | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/03/uk-agrees-to-negotiate-with-mauritius-over-handover-of-chagos-islands?s=09)


In one of the most shameful episodes of British postwar colonialism, the then Labour government expelled the Chagossians because under international law it could only separate the archipelago from Mauritius if it had no permanent population. The archipelago was reconstituted as a colonial entity as the British Indian Ocean Territory, within which Diego Garcia and the US base could rest. All Chagossians were removed from the islands by the end of 1971


Labour, as bad as the ******* Tories :agree:

Wasn't that even earlier than when the SNP helped Thatcher into No 10?

See, we can all play that game.

[archie]

So the NHS is struggling to recruit in a number of areas, radiology was one mentioned recently, but starmer doesn't want to fill those vacancies with talent from abroad?

What is wrong with them?
Strip mining the third world of medical staff isn't exactly 'progressive' https://globalizationandhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12992-016-0198-0

[ronaldo7]

Tory partners. Oh dear.

To be fair, the lib dems are chipping in a few as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

A reminder for sir Keir

https://mobile.twitter.com/Taj_Ali1/status/1589308462722211840

Taj Ali
@Taj_Ali1
The brilliant Dennis Skinner on how vital foreign-born workers are to the NHS. Our healthcare system would collapse without them. Instead of stoking xenophobia, politicians should focus their energy on demanding proper pay and better conditions for all NHS workers

[Just Alf]

Strip mining the third world of medical staff isn't exactly 'progressive' https://globalizationandhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12992-016-0198-0The top level stuff is all well and good, and a crutch for folks like the Tories to hold onto, as bringing it down to a human/personality level shows them up for what they are....


The beeb aren't my favourite news outlet, however they recently did a piece on 3 random Albanian families and two of them had fully trained nurses sitting on their hands unable to do any work while desperately wanting too...

[archie]

The top level stuff is all well and good, and a crutch for folks like the Tories to hold onto, as bringing it down to a human/personality level shows them up for what they are....


The beeb aren't my favourite news outlet, however they recently did a piece on 3 random Albanian families and two of them had fully trained nurses sitting on their hands unable to do any work while desperately wanting too...

It's not a crutch for me. I do think it's legitimate to question why we can't train up and employ staff to work in the health service. I also think it's legitimate for people from abroad to work here. There is clearly something in the complaints from third world countries that they train staff that we, Europe and the US poach

[grunt]

Starmer 2015:

https://t.co/2mG4n1bzpu (https://t.co/2mG4n1bzpu)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fg399Y5XwAAn1Zv?format=jpg&name=medium

[grunt]

I do think it's legitimate to question why we can't train up and employ staff to work in the health service. I also think it's legitimate for people from abroad to work here.
:agree:

We should do both.

[James310]

:agree:

We should do both.

And that's what Keir Starmer said.

On whether he believes immigration should be used to address that issue, he said: "I think that we should be training people in this country.

"Of course we need some immigration but we need to train people in this country."

[Just Alf]

It's not a crutch for me. I do think it's legitimate to question why we can't train up and employ staff to work in the health service. I also think it's legitimate for people from abroad to work here. There is clearly something in the complaints from third world countries that they train staff that we, Europe and the US poach

Not meaning you to be clear.. I'm talking about the short sighted folks.

You're bang on re training folk up, problem with Starmers interview earlier is he said similar but refused to say anything about the here and now... we've trained people already here... why not use them?
He even said we need some immigration but pointed it towards engineering etc

[Jack]

It's not a crutch for me. I do think it's legitimate to question why we can't train up and employ staff to work in the health service. I also think it's legitimate for people from abroad to work here. There is clearly something in the complaints from third world countries that they train staff that we, Europe and the US poach

Would you stop the 1,000s of UK trained nurses and other healthcare professionals from working abroad?

[archie]

Would you stop the 1,000s of UK trained nurses and other healthcare professionals from working abroad?

No. We don't own people. But I think there is a difference between people who fancy a few years in Australia as opposed to people who, for whatever reason, feel they can't work in healthcare here. That points to structural issue that need addressed.

[Jack]

No. We don't own people. But I think there is a difference between people who fancy a few years in Australia as opposed to people who, for whatever reason, feel they can't work in healthcare here. That points to structural issue that need addressed.

You're deluded if you think the problem is just folk that fancy a few years in Australia, or elsewhere.

And what about those from overseas who come to train here; surgeons, doctors, nurses and all the others,from overseas or come increase the skill set?

[Moulin Yarns]

No he didn't.

Not in as many words but the implications are there!

[ronaldo7]

Sir keir played a blinder today.

Not sure he'll be back for a while.

Absolute car crash of an interview.

[Moulin Yarns]

Strip mining the third world of medical staff isn't exactly 'progressive' https://globalizationandhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12992-016-0198-0

Aye, let's become a third world country when it comes to health. We should be training more medics but, for some reason not enough want to do it, so the next best thing is to recruit where we can.

[archie]

You're deluded if you think the problem is just folk that fancy a few years in Australia, or elsewhere.

And what about those from overseas who come to train here; surgeons, doctors, nurses and all the others,from overseas or come increase the skill set?I didn't say that. I was drawing a distinction between people who used their training to see a bit of the world and those who felt they could not work in our healthcare system. That is a wider structural issue that needs addressed, which was my central point. No issue with people coming here to work, improve skills etc. But the point appears to be that the health care system cannot function without staff from abroad. Like it or not having a system that can't function without pulling in staff from countries, many of whom are experiencing health care crises doesn't feel right. There's a private public split here (in terms of private and public needs). Individuals should have the right to work where they want. But building a healthcare system that needs to hurt other healthcare systems can't be right.

[Smartie]

The problem we have is that our educational establishments are still producing young people with strong ethics and good knowledge.

The NHS is grotesquely underfunded and many young graduates simply don't want to work in systems where they have to compromise the knowledge they have learned. Either they learn how to do their best within the system and compromise their standards, they go abroad, or they retrain to do something else.

The UK has still appeared to be an upward step from people from certain countries overseas and so the whole creaking edifice has been kept on life support by immigration for longer than it ought to, that and huge reserves of slightly naive goodwill from many people who work within the system.

When a brainfart like Brexit comes along and whacks the immigration part, it's little wonder that we soon end up where we are.

I'd like to be surprised that the Labour leader should be grasping the wrong end of the stick on the issue but I'm not.

Starmer was appallingly briefed ahead of his appearance today and he needs to pull his socks up big time if he's going to convince anyone that he's capable of converting what should be the open goal of defeating a quite diabolical and unpopular Tory party and becoming the UK's next Prime Minister.

[archie]

Not in as many words but the implications are there!
Are you seriously suggesting that Keir Starmer wants a white only NHS. Seriously!

[neil7908]

Starmer 2015:

https://t.co/2mG4n1bzpu (https://t.co/2mG4n1bzpu)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fg399Y5XwAAn1Zv?format=jpg&name=medium

He's a complete snake. Just Boris with a better hair cut.

He's performed as many u-turns as the Tories. The guy just wants power and I suppose we are supposed to vote for him to get the Tories out and just hope for the best?

Awful, awful leader.

[SHODAN]

He's a complete snake. Just Boris with a better hair cut.

He's performed as many u-turns as the Tories. The guy just wants power and I suppose we are supposed to vote for him to get the Tories out and just hope for the best?

Awful, awful leader.

One day the left in rUK will have an alternative and if Labour are still going down the Starmer route they'll be wiped out overnight.

You can't keep shafting people and take their votes for granted and get away with it. Just look at Scotland.

[Hibbyradge]

One day the left in rUK will have an alternative and if Labour are still going down the Starmer route they'll be wiped out overnight.

You can't keep shafting people and take their votes for granted and get away with it. Just look at Scotland.

Who's votes is he taking for granted?

[Bristolhibby]

Aye, let's become a third world country when it comes to health. We should be training more medics but, for some reason not enough want to do it, so the next best thing is to recruit where we can.

Bursaries and no fees for student nurses would be a start (I live in England so fees are a thing).

J

[Ozyhibby]

Just saw Starmers interview from yesterday. It is worse than people made out.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221107/6a78451a94e9e1f668af0dceb00431a4.jpg


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[Hibbyradge]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221107/6a78451a94e9e1f668af0dceb00431a4.jpg


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Sunak's new boy, honeymoon period ending so soon.

Good to see.

[SHODAN]

Who's votes is he taking for granted?

Anyone he and the Labour right are attacking. Striking workers, those of immigrant background (immigrants themselves don't matter because they can't vote, nice one Westminster), climate protesters. His whole thing is to appeal to swing voters who at the moment are solidly right wing. The left are presumed to vote for him despite Labour promising no real change and in some cases actively working against/demonising them (i.e. the broken leadership promises).

What's the latest? ID cards to monitor immigration, a problem that doesn't exist and a discussion which was created by Sunak to deflect from his ***** government. One of the many, many reasons Labour lost my vote is when they decided to concede the immigration "debate" (i.e. that it is bad) and try to out-do the Tories on "controlling" it.

Thank god we actually have an alternative up here. I'm not voting for someone who attacks my family for working for the NHS to win votes from xenophobes. It's personal now. **** him.

[marinello59]

Sunak's new boy, honeymoon period ending so soon.

Good to see.

:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

Anyone he and the Labour right are attacking. Striking workers, those of immigrant background (immigrants themselves don't matter because they can't vote, nice one Westminster), climate protesters. His whole thing is to appeal to swing voters who at the moment are solidly right wing. The left are presumed to vote for him despite Labour promising no real change and in some cases actively working against/demonising them (i.e. the broken leadership promises).

What's the latest? ID cards to monitor immigration, a problem that doesn't exist and a discussion which was created by Sunak to deflect from his ***** government. One of the many, many reasons Labour lost my vote is when they decided to concede the immigration "debate" (i.e. that it is bad) and try to out-do the Tories on "controlling" it.

Thank god we actually have an alternative up here. I'm not voting for someone who attacks my family for working for the NHS to win votes from xenophobes. It's personal now. **** him.

In what way did he attack your family for working for the NHS? Genuine question.

[hibsbollah]

Anyone he and the Labour right are attacking. Striking workers, those of immigrant background (immigrants themselves don't matter because they can't vote, nice one Westminster), climate protesters. His whole thing is to appeal to swing voters who at the moment are solidly right wing. The left are presumed to vote for him despite Labour promising no real change and in some cases actively working against/demonising them (i.e. the broken leadership promises).

What's the latest? ID cards to monitor immigration, a problem that doesn't exist and a discussion which was created by Sunak to deflect from his ***** government. One of the many, many reasons Labour lost my vote is when they decided to concede the immigration "debate" (i.e. that it is bad) and try to out-do the Tories on "controlling" it.

Thank god we actually have an alternative up here. I'm not voting for someone who attacks my family for working for the NHS to win votes from xenophobes. It's personal now. **** him.

I agree with you and I take no pleasure in doing so at all. I’m desperate for some sort of signal of ‘balance’ from them, of trying to walk a line between trying to attract multiple types of voter, but there really is none. We’re stuck in a model of political analysis which is 30 years out of date, Win Over Mondeo Man.

[Ozyhibby]

In what way did he attack your family for working for the NHS? Genuine question.

He did say there were too many people like his wife working in the NHS?


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[Hibbyradge]

I agree with you and I take no pleasure in doing so at all. I’m desperate for some sort of signal of ‘balance’ from them, of trying to walk a line between trying to attract multiple types of voter, but there really is none. We’re stuck in a model of political analysis which is 30 years out of date, Win Over Mondeo Man.

I'm clinging on to the fact that everything that is being said at the moment is to neuter the Tories' attacks and yes, attract the voters needed for Labour to win the GE.

The time to criticise Labour's policies will be when they start implementing them and I firmly believe that they will start to bring UK politics in a leftward direction.

Because of the SNP, it's easy to be righteous and pure in Scotland, but for those of us without that option, as depressing as it is, that's what we have to think/hope for.

[Hibbyradge]

He did say there were too many people like his wife working in the NHS?


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Presumably he meant that the conditions and salaries paid to NHS staff were so bad that we are having to poach people from much poorer nations to do the jobs, no?

I didn't hear him so I'm guessing. I really don't think Keir Starmer is racist.

[marinello59]

Presumably he meant that the conditions and salaries paid to NHS staff were so bad that we are having to poach people from much poorer nations to do the jobs, no?

I didn't hear him so I'm guessing. I really don't think Keir Starmer is racist.

He’s not a racist. What he did say was cack handed and clumsy allowing his opponents to put their own vicious spin on it. As always proper debate is the loser here. The NHS has fundamental problems that simply can’t be ignored and they need to be addressed UK wide, both Governments are culpable. That’s who we should be attacking, those in long term power who have failed us again and again.

[Ozyhibby]

He’s not a racist. What he did say was cack handed and clumsy allowing his opponents to put their own vicious spin on it. As always proper debate is the loser here. The NHS has fundamental problems that simply can’t be ignored and they need to be addressed UK wide, both Governments are culpable. That’s who we should be attacking, those in long term power who have failed us again and again.

Maybe he’s not racist but saw an opportunity to put out a little dog whistle to those who are?
He may not be racist but he’s also not stupid. I don’t believe for a minute that he didn’t know what he was saying. Words matter. And he knows that.


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[marinello59]

Maybe he’s not racist but saw an opportunity to put out a little dog whistle to those who are?
He may not be racist but he’s also not stupid. I don’t believe for a minute that he didn’t know what he was saying. Words matter. And he knows that.


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I’m not defending what he said. I can see how some would see it as dog whistling. I didn’t get that myself but his choice of language was poor. I think he made a genuine mistake but maybe that’s just me being willing to give politicians of all parties the benefit of the doubt occasionally.

[SHODAN]

I’m not defending what he said. I can see how some would see it as dog whistling. I didn’t get that myself but his choice of language was poor. I think he made a genuine mistake but maybe that’s just me being willing to give politicians of all parties the benefit of the doubt occasionally.

The correct response would be to tackle the immigration non-issue like it actually is instead of trying to pander to the xenophobe vote.

Sorry, I'm done with successive Labour leaders failing to challenge the immigration "debate" for what it is: an easy scapegoat for the failings of successive governments to take care of the vulnerable and safeguard the rich, and instead state, whether implied or not, that people who move here are somehow partly responsible for structural failings.

I expect this from Tories, but Labour can do better. They choose to court the bigot vote every time, and I (sadly) include Corbyn in that. The SNP stand up for migrants every time this **** comes up - I admit that's at least partly because non-citizens can actually vote here (which is another abomination in itself re them being disenfranchised otherwise), but at least they actually say something.

My Mum's side are central/eastern European. My partner is southern European. My kids will have dual nationality. Every time a Labour leader condones the existence of the immigration "debate" they insult me and my family and condone xenophobic abuse from the public. Now they do it when it's my partner's country of birth as the target. Unforgivable.

[marinello59]

The correct response would be to tackle the immigration non-issue like it actually is instead of trying to pander to the xenophobe vote.

Sorry, I'm done with successive Labour leaders failing to challenge the immigration "debate" for what it is: an easy scapegoat for the failings of successive governments to take care of the vulnerable and safeguard the rich, and instead state, whether implied or not, that people who move here are somehow partly responsible for structural failings.

I expect this from Tories, but Labour can do better. They choose to court the bigot vote every time, and I (sadly) include Corbyn in that. The SNP stand up for migrants every time this **** comes up - I admit that's at least partly because non-citizens can actually vote here (which is another abomination in itself re them being disenfranchised otherwise), but at least they actually say something.

My Mum's side are central/eastern European. My partner is southern European. My kids will have dual nationality. Every time a Labour leader condones the existence of the immigration "debate" they insult me and my family and condone xenophobic abuse from the public. Now they do it when it's my partner's country of birth as the target. Unforgivable.

I get this is very personal for you and totally respect your take on things. I apologise if anything I have said has come across as offensive to you. As I said earlier though I do believe that despite what our politicians may occasionally say the vast majority of UK residents are decent welcoming people.
I know you won’t agree but take the constitutional issue out of things and come the next election I wager that there will be nothing in either the SNP or Labour manifestos that members of either party would fundamentally disagree with.

[Ozyhibby]

I get this is very personal for you and totally respect your take on things. I apologise if anything I have said has come across as offensive to you. As I said earlier though I do believe that despite what our politicians may occasionally say the vast majority of UK residents are decent welcoming people.
I know you won’t agree but take the constitutional issue out of things and come the next election I wager that there will be nothing in either the SNP or Labour manifestos that members of either party would fundamentally disagree with.

I think supporters of the SNP won’t be that impressed with Labours commitment to Brexit?


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[marinello59]

I think supporters of the SNP won’t be that impressed with Labours commitment to Brexit?


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I’m not second guessing what will be in either manifesto. You can dig this one up when they are released. I’ll look forward to it. Mainly because I haven’t wagered any actual money. :greengrin

[James310]

I get this is very personal for you and totally respect your take on things. I apologise if anything I have said has come across as offensive to you. As I said earlier though I do believe that despite what our politicians may occasionally say the vast majority of UK residents are decent welcoming people.
I know you won’t agree but take the constitutional issue out of things and come the next election I wager that there will be nothing in either the SNP or Labour manifestos that members of either party would fundamentally disagree with.

Do you have a manifesto when you have said the election will be fought on a single issue basis?

[marinello59]

Do you have a manifesto when you have said the election will be fought on a single issue basis?

I’m not so sure that is actually going to happen. But if it does I will have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and you can all form an orderly queue to tell me so. :greengrin

[SHODAN]

I get this is very personal for you and totally respect your take on things. I apologise if anything I have said has come across as offensive to you. As I said earlier though I do believe that despite what our politicians may occasionally say the vast majority of UK residents are decent welcoming people.
I know you won’t agree but take the constitutional issue out of things and come the next election I wager that there will be nothing in either the SNP or Labour manifestos that members of either party would fundamentally disagree with.

Not at all, you haven't offended me - apologies if it came across that way.

I think I naively thought that the immigration thing was "done" after Brexit and one of the few positives to come out of it was that we'd be able to confront actual structural change rather than blaming migrants for everything. But we're back to square one and Labour are complicit in that. The fact that the attacks are more and more personal each time add to that.

Re the manifestos point - Labour's position on striking workers, environmental activists, Brexit, independence and their non-opposition to the protest bill put me off long before this came about. More recently you have people like Streeting coming out with cryptic quotes re privatising parts of the NHS. I really don't see what they have to offer to anyone my age who isn't a homeowner; the SNP aren't that much better but they are at least ticking SOME boxes on rent controls and trans rights etc (the latter is another non-debate and I don't go on the .net thread re it because it makes me quite angry).

On a personal level, I really detest Starmer because of his transparent breaking of promises to get elected, purging the left from the party, and more recently what he's come out with on immigration. They're not interested in winning my vote, either because they think it's lost or because, at least down south, people my age or younger have nothing better to vote for. Every time you see Starmer in the media it's some sort of finger-wagging exercise to tell the left they're protesting the wrong way. I'd honestly consider spoiling my ballot at this point if I was in England.

[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1591097809406566401?t=8ZgWXipqkPc6IHJ6RM1kpw&s=19

Would a Labour government succumb to union pressure to give public sector workers inflation-matching pay rises of 10 per cent? “Brutally, no.”

I wish Starmer's Labour had more ambition than copying the Tories but without the scandal. It's utterly depressing.

[grunt]

I haven't read the story, but the headline is horrific ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FheOJ9fWYAEzZwH?format=png&name=small

[neil7908]

I haven't read the story, but the headline is horrific ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FheOJ9fWYAEzZwH?format=png&name=small

Turns my stomach. Sadly I think it'll be decades before we as a country are ready to face the terrible damage that Brexit has caused. And by then it might be too late to recover.

Whilst the Tories and their supporters in the media, business etc deserve the vast majority of the blame, Labour have also sold the country out for a chance at power.

[Ozyhibby]

Turns my stomach. Sadly I think it'll be decades before we as a country are ready to face the terrible damage that Brexit has caused. And by then it might be too late to recover.

Whilst the Tories and their supporters in the media, business etc deserve the vast majority of the blame, Labour have also sold the country out for a chance at power.

At least in Scotland we can reverse it before too much more damage is done.[emoji1696]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Non existent rishi bounce. Austerity , ending the energy support scheme in March to be announced and a recession, when do they start to claw back

DeltapollUK
6m
🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
Labour lead is twenty-three points in latest results from Deltapoll.
Con 27% (-2)
Lab 50% (+3)
Lib Dem 6% (-3)
Other 17% (+1)
Fieldwork: 10th - 14th November 2022
Sample: 1,060 GB adults
(Changes from 4th - 7th November 2022

[Stairway 2 7]

in an interview with
@theipaper

@Keir_Starmer
and
@RachelReevesMP
said wealthy non-doms and big business must pay to plug the £60bn black hole rather than ordinary taxpayers

Voters should not have to “mop up the mess” of the Tory gov, they say

https://archive.ph/M500d
Tax Amazon and non-doms more instead of targeting lower earners, says Keir Starmer

[ronaldo7]

Suspended Edinburgh Labour councillor attacks group for using 'Tory votes' to stay in power
The Labour councillor said the culture within the group "goes beyond the City Chambers" and sees constituents and party structures "routinely ignored"

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/suspended-edinburgh-labour-councillor-attacks-25549805?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[ronaldo7]

President of unison expelled from the labour party. Starmers lurch to the right continues.

The President of the biggest union in the UK, Unison, has been expelled from the Labour party.

Andrea Egan, elected as Unison’s president in June 2022 by the union’s national executive council (NEC), said: “I’ve given over a decade to the Labour Party. It’s devastating.”

“As the President of Unison, my message to our 1.3 million members has always been around unity. Now, what message can I give to members when they’ve kicked me out?”

In a letter sent to Egan on 15 November by the Labour party disputes team, the NEC Panel stated that Egan’s membership termination is a result of her having shared two articles from Socialist Appeal – a Marxist group within the party – on social media.

On July 20 2021, the Labour Party NEC voted to proscribe Socialist Appeal. A Labour spokesperson said: “These organisations are not compatible with Labour’s rules or our aims and values.”

The first occasion on which Egan shared a Socialist Appeal article was 16 July, prior to the organisation’s official ban by the Labour party . The article related to the Socialist Appeal’s potential proscription. Egan shared it with the comment, “who’s next.”

The second article shared by Egan related directly to Unison and to Egan’s election to the union’s NEC, titled: Unison: Left activists begin the struggle to transform the union.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/19/keir-starmer-i-will-abolish-house-of-lords-to-restore-trust-in-politics

Starmer to Abolish House of Lords.

It’s a shock to the system these days when there’s political developments that I approve of, need to see some details but **** me that’s a positive bolt from the blue.