The future of the Labour Party

[nonshinyfinish]

what's harder than ironclad? Platinum-clad maybe?

Graphene-clad if you want to go all out. Doesn't leave much headroom for future slogans though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Graphene-clad if you want to go all out. Doesn't leave much headroom for future slogans though.

Diamond clad. 🤔

Diamond encrusted surely 😉

[hibsbollah]

Tory peers vote down plea to extend free school meals to 1.3million extra poor kids - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-peers-vote-down-plea-27465570)

More fiscal prudence...Labour peers in the Lords whipped to abstain. Incredible how few outlets are touching this story at all. Just the Mirror and social media.

[ronaldo7]

Have the Labour party under Sir Keir thought through their policy of not speaking to the SNP under any circumstances, whilst, Anas Sarwar is trying to get governments in England and Scotland to have to speak to each other as a legal duty.

Has the branch office manager stepped out of line again?

[Ozyhibby]

Have the Labour party under Sir Keir thought through their policy of not speaking to the SNP under any circumstances, whilst, Anas Sarwar is trying to get governments in England and Scotland to have to speak to each other as a legal duty.

Has the branch office manager stepped out of line again?

Sarwar’s policy is really just Scotland doing as it’s told. If there is no co-operation, who does the penalty fall on? Scotland or London? What is the penalty?
This whole idea shows that he’s not a serious a serious leader. He just throws out slogans.


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[The Harp Awakes]

I think most of us knew what's been going on, just some late arrivals to get the message.

Siobhain McDonagh let’s the cat out the bag. Anas Sarwar pretends to despise Tories when in fact he’s collaborating with them to lock out SNP.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1546828342317432842

If anyone wonders why former Labour voters in Scotland have defected in their droves to the SNP over the last 25 years, the explanation is in that video clip. As one of those defectors, I find it so sad that Labour should continue to be forming political alliances with the tories.

How can they not see that getting into bed with the tories, just pushes more of their decimated support to the SNP? Scottish Labour is finished, as least until Scotland gains independence.

[He's here!]

If anyone wonders why former Labour voters in Scotland have defected in their droves to the SNP over the last 25 years, the explanation is in that video clip. As one of those defectors, I find it so sad that Labour should continue to be forming political alliances with the tories.

How can they not see that getting into bed with the tories, just pushes more of their decimated support to the SNP? Scottish Labour is finished, as least until Scotland gains independence.

I've never really understood what people mean by this. If those 'lending' their vote to the SNP have so little regard for the other parties what would be different about them in an independent Scotland that would lend them greater voter appeal?

Would Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservative parties even exist in an independent Scotland? There would be no particular reason they'd need to retain those party names as they'd no longer have any link to the UK parties. I'd have thought the opportunity to re-brand and even re-name themselves would be the only way they might maintain a meaningful presence. Bearing in mind some seem to regard them as two sides of the same coin these days perhaps they could even merge...

[JeMeSouviens]

I've never really understood what people mean by this. If those 'lending' their vote to the SNP have so little regard for the other parties what would be different about them in an independent Scotland that would lend them greater voter appeal?

Would Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservative parties even exist in an independent Scotland? There would be no particular reason they'd need to retain those party names as they'd no longer have any link to the UK parties. I'd have thought the opportunity to re-brand and even re-name themselves would be the only way they might maintain a meaningful presence. Bearing in mind some seem to regard them as two sides of the same coin these days perhaps they could even merge...

The SNP is a very broad centrist-ish coalition. For example, there's no reason other than independence that would normally keep Fergus Ewing and Mhairi Black in the same party. I think most people expect new leftish and rightish groupings to emerge post-Indy. Although if Ireland is anything to go by, where you were in the pre-Indy constitutional mix could potentially cast a long shadow.

I think there is a lot of residual nostalgia for the old Labour party so it might be a brand worth keeping. "Scottish Conservative" - maybe not so much. :greengrin

[Kato]

I've never really understood what people mean by this. If those 'lending' their vote to the SNP have so little regard for the other parties what would be different about them in an independent Scotland that would lend them greater voter appeal?

Would Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservative parties even exist in an independent Scotland? There would be no particular reason they'd need to retain those party names as they'd no longer have any link to the UK parties. I'd have thought the opportunity to re-brand and even re-name themselves would be the only way they might maintain a meaningful presence. Bearing in mind some seem to regard them as two sides of the same coin these days perhaps they could even merge...I'm failing to understand what is so difficult to understand.

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[The Harp Awakes]

I've never really understood what people mean by this. If those 'lending' their vote to the SNP have so little regard for the other parties what would be different about them in an independent Scotland that would lend them greater voter appeal?

Would Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservative parties even exist in an independent Scotland? There would be no particular reason they'd need to retain those party names as they'd no longer have any link to the UK parties. I'd have thought the opportunity to re-brand and even re-name themselves would be the only way they might maintain a meaningful presence. Bearing in mind some seem to regard them as two sides of the same coin these days perhaps they could even merge...

In an independent Scotland, the most likely scenario is that the SNP would cease to exist, at least in it's present form. Mission would be accomplished, so there would be no need for a mainstream 'national' party. You may of course get offshoots of the SNP, e.g. the Scottish Brexit Party, assuming we regained membership of the EU..

In that scenario, previous SNP voters will align themselves with the parties which represent their broad political views. Whether that's Scottish Labour (most likely), the Scottish Conservatives (less likely) or a indeed a reincarnation of those parties as you suggest, the bottom line is that Scottish Labour (or the reincarnated left of centre, version of that party) is most likely to form the first Government.

That was my thinking.

[Ozyhibby]

In an independent Scotland, the most likely scenario is that the SNP would cease to exist, at least in it's present form. Mission would be accomplished, so there would be no need for a mainstream 'national' party. You may of course get offshoots of the SNP, e.g. the Scottish Brexit Party, assuming we regained membership of the EU..

In that scenario, previous SNP voters will align themselves with the parties which represent their broad political views. Whether that's Scottish Labour (most likely), the Scottish Conservatives (less likely) or a indeed a reincarnation of those parties as you suggest, the bottom line is that Scottish Labour (or the reincarnated left of centre, version of that party) is most likely to form the first Government.

That was my thinking.

The SNP will carry on. People don’t just give up on the level of infrastructure the party has built up.
The opposition parties will change and some may leave the SNP for them but the SNP will carry on.


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[degenerated]

I assume given the number of times Anas Sarwar has used this as a line of attack he will be up in arms about Keir Hardly's latest volte face. It'll be interesting to see how Scottish Labour spin this one. 26034

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sir Starmer drops yet another pledge

is that 10 or 11 now ? he's desperate for his Labour to lurch more to the right to get those moderate Tory votes :agree:

' in his LBC interview Sir Keir appeared to suggest that he believed breaking the pledges could help him become prime minister'

A spokesperson for the left-wing campaign group momentum said "Labour members have gotten used to Keir Starmer breaking his word- we were promised unity, integrity and radicalism, and given factionalism, deception and reheated Blairism instead.

"bur keir's acceptance of private provision in the NHS, coming soon after Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting said the same, is particularly disturbing

"it was a radical Labour government who established the NHS as a lasting and cherished public good- but creeping privatisation is designed to undermine this achievement, and transition to a US-style, profiteering Wild West health system, This agenda is highly unpopular and deeply damaging- there can be no Justification for Labour adopting it."

Keir Starmer scraps pledge to end NHS private sector outsourcing (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/keir-starmer-scraps-pledge-to-end-nhs-private-sector-outsourcing/ar-AAZBzms?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1061e138913146558dd200b91e30631d)

[hibsbollah]

Sir Starmer drops yet another pledge

is that 10 or 11 now ? he's desperate for his Labour to lurch more to the right to get those moderate Tory votes :agree:

' in his LBC interview Sir Keir appeared to suggest that he believed breaking the pledges could help him become prime minister'

A spokesperson for the left-wing campaign group momentum said "Labour members have gotten used to Keir Starmer breaking his word- we were promised unity, integrity and radicalism, and given factionalism, deception and reheated Blairism instead.

"bur keir's acceptance of private provision in the NHS, coming soon after Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting said the same, is particularly disturbing

"it was a radical Labour government who established the NHS as a lasting and cherished public good- but creeping privatisation is designed to undermine this achievement, and transition to a US-style, profiteering Wild West health system, This agenda is highly unpopular and deeply damaging- there can be no Justification for Labour adopting it."

Keir Starmer scraps pledge to end NHS private sector outsourcing (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/keir-starmer-scraps-pledge-to-end-nhs-private-sector-outsourcing/ar-AAZBzms?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1061e138913146558dd200b91e30631d)

It’s been clear for some time he’s a Mandelson plant. A cuckoo in the nest. Also he’s as weak as nuns piss and I have no faith the polling lead is anything more than temporary.

[neil7908]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/18/starmer-rules-out-even-informal-post-election-deal-with-lib-dems

Now there will be no coalition with the Lib Dems. WTF is he playing at?

Is this an attempt to railroad the public into backing Labour, not by offering them any policies to make a real difference, but effectively setting up a US style 2 party system. Because that's exactly what we need 😕.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/18/starmer-rules-out-even-informal-post-election-deal-with-lib-dems

Now there will be no coalition with the Lib Dems. WTF is he playing at?

Is this an attempt to railroad the public into backing Labour, not by offering them any policies to make a real difference, but effectively setting up a US style 2 party system. Because that's exactly what we need [emoji53].

If it’s like Sarwar’s no coalitions commitment it means he’s lining up a deal with the Tories.


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[Hibbyradge]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/18/starmer-rules-out-even-informal-post-election-deal-with-lib-dems

Now there will be no coalition with the Lib Dems. WTF is he playing at?

Is this an attempt to railroad the public into backing Labour, not by offering them any policies to make a real difference, but effectively setting up a US style 2 party system. Because that's exactly what we need 😕.

Every single party says that they wouldn't share power before an election.

[neil7908]

If it’s like Sarwar’s no coalitions commitment it means he’s lining up a deal with the Tories.


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I honestly don't get it.

I don't agree with not talking with the SNP and find it insulting as a Scottish voter but I can begrudgingly understand the play in terms of his desperate drive to get middle England voters and the right wing press on his side at all costs.

However, the Lid Dems are incredibly close to his Labour party in so many ways. And given we've had a Tory-Lib Dems coalition pretty recently, I'm not sure how the 'coalition of chaos' stuff could be used as a stick to beat Labour, especially given the utter state of the country right now.

Again, he's just pushing us to a two party system, which is a very dangerous road to go down and I think will back fire and leave voters on the left peed off. This guy does not have the skill, personality or policies to unite the left vote so pushing us into a corner and trying to basically say Labour or the Tories is a very dangerous and stupid play.

[neil7908]

Every single party says that they wouldn't share power before an election.

So do you think he will do a deal with the Lib Dems?

I thought we were trying to get liars out of government?

[Ozyhibby]

So do you think he will do a deal with the Lib Dems?

I thought we were trying to get liars out of government?

I’m beginning to think that they believe the can run a minority govt without giving any other party something just because they are no the Tories. It’s deluded.


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[Hibbyradge]

So do you think he will do a deal with the Lib Dems?

I thought we were trying to get liars out of government?

Ask any party if they'll do a deal before going into an election and they'll say of course not. Their intention is to win outright.

If they said "Yes", they'd totally ruin their credibility as a party who can win and, as a result, they'd lose votes.

"I'm not voting for X because they're in the pocket of Y who I disagree with". "Might as well vote for Y". Sounds familiar doesn't it and that's even when election pacts were ruled out.

I think every party would do a deal with anyone if it gave them the opportunity to govern as long as the terms of the deal were acceptable.

Do I think Labour would deal with the Libs? It's a possibility, but a deal with the SNP is far more likely given the numbers involved.

And that's my favourite scenario.

[Hibbyradge]

I’m beginning to think that they believe the can run a minority govt without giving any other party something just because they are no the Tories. It’s deluded.


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It would be deluded, but it exists in your mind only. No chance would they try that.

The party who can muster the biggest coalition will form the government. I hope it's a Lab/SNP.

[SHODAN]

They're becoming more and more like the US Democrats by the day. A backstop designed to prevent progress to the left rather than a genuine force for change. One day the people they take for granted will ditch them and they'll go the way of PASOK.

[Ozyhibby]

If the SNP get say 45% of the vote and say 40 odd MPs then as Nicola Sturgeon has now said the General Election is a de facto referendum (her words not mine) then at 45% of the vote she has "lost" her referendum. Because rest assured if she gets 50.1% she would say she has "won" the referendum.

That's the corner she has put the SNP in, they need to get 50% or more of the vote. Something they have never done even at peak SNP in 2015.

Bit random?


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[James310]

Bit random?


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General election, SNP MPs, deals being done.

Probably one for the Indy thread I agree. Will delete and post on there.

[hibsbollah]

Forde Report finally released.

The-Forde-Report.pdf (fordeinquiry.org) (https://www.fordeinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/The-Forde-Report.pdf)

I dont have the time to make head nor tail of the detail, but fairly obvious from the summary that the issue of anti semitism was 'weaponised' to discredit Corbyn on one side, and complaints of AS were not appropriately investigated by Corbyns office as a result, clearly because there was an assumption that the whole thing was false flag BS.

Just a sad, depressing situation when there should have been a Tory Government to get rid of.

[Keith_M]

Forde Report finally released.

The-Forde-Report.pdf (fordeinquiry.org) (https://www.fordeinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/The-Forde-Report.pdf)

I dont have the time to make head nor tail of the detail, but fairly obvious from the summary that the issue of anti semitism was 'weaponised' to discredit Corbyn on one side, and complaints of AS were not appropriately investigated by Corbyns office as a result, clearly because there was an assumption that the whole thing was false flag BS.

Just a sad, depressing situation when there should have been a Tory Government to get rid of.


I was just reading the article in The Guardian and my very first thought was 'no ****, Sherlock'.

Anti-Semitism wasn't just used as a weapon to attack Corbyn by rival elements of the Labour Party, but by various Jewish groups and,totally disgracefully, every single Media Outlet.


...I'm looking at you, 'Guardian'.

[hibsbollah]

I was just reading the article in The Guardian and my very first thought was 'no ****, Sherlock'.

Anti-Semitism wasn't just used as a weapon to attack Corbyn by rival elements of the Labour Party, but by various Jewish groups and,totally disgracefully, every single Media Outlet.


...I'm looking at you, 'Guardian'.

The Guardian has a particular anti Corbyn slant, clearly, so I have no confidence the 'both sides were at it' angle is genuine. By the same token, I just can't face spending too much time self researching a 100+ page report. One thing's for sure, he was set up to fail.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-politics/id1611374685?i=1000570527909

Starmer completely rules out proportional representation.


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[SHODAN]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-politics/id1611374685?i=1000570527909

Starmer completely rules out proportional representation.


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Only left-of-centre party in Europe that still supports FPTP. Laughable.

[Ozyhibby]

Only left-of-centre party in Europe that still supports FPTP. Laughable.

Labour need FPTP to keep the party together. Without it they would break apart.
Ironic because he starts that interview by saying the first job he did when he took over was to make the members start putting the country first before the party.


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[Keith_M]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-politics/id1611374685?i=1000570527909

Starmer completely rules out proportional representation.


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Surely the new rules are that any party that wants to run the country needs a proper 'mandate', which is 60% of the vote.

:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Surely the new rules are that any party that wants to run the country needs a proper 'mandate', which is 60% of the vote.

:wink:

:faf:

Pwopa mandate.

[xyz23jc]

Only left-of-centre party in Europe that still supports FPTP. Laughable.

Left of Centre? Now that is laughable! :confused:

[xyz23jc]

:faf:

Pwopa mandate.

:greengrin:agree::wink:

[LewysGot2]

Only left-of-centre party in Europe that still supports FPTP. Laughable.

A dissenting Andy Burnham has gone public saying they should embrace proportional representation. I do think he's going to end up Labour leader at some point.

[Colr]

A dissenting Andy Burnham has gone public saying they should embrace proportional representation. I do think he's going to end up Labour leader at some point.

He’ll need a seat first. Could take a while.

[LewysGot2]

He’ll need a seat first. Could take a while.

Guess the next General Election?

He’s definitely on that road just looking at it as an interested observer. Running a bigger gig in Manchester than a lot of nations, Hillsborough actions and personal impact still there. Transport policy changes in Manchester the latest policy that will be interesting to see the outcome for ordinary people. Not quite hanging from a zip wire waving a union flag but the mayoral route is a proven one…

[hibsbollah]

Big Speech today from Liverpool.

Essentially, Starmer-No nationalisation, I’ve changed my mind.
Starmer-Growth, growth, growth.
Spending-There are no ‘magic money tree’ economics.

How private capital owning all Britains utilities are ever going to meet the needs of people struggling with cost of living, or how Growth Growth Growth! Fits in with the climate crisis, he hasn’t yet been pushed on.

And, who the **** thought dredging up George Osbornes ‘money tree’ metaphor was a good idea? Even the Tories have given up on that one.

[Ozyhibby]

Big Speech today from Liverpool.

Essentially, Starmer-No nationalisation, I’ve changed my mind.
Starmer-Growth, growth, growth.
Spending-There are no ‘magic money tree’ economics.

How private capital owning all Britains utilities are ever going to meet the needs of people struggling with cost of living, or how Growth Growth Growth! Fits in with the climate crisis, he hasn’t yet been pushed on.

And, who the **** thought dredging up George Osbornes ‘money tree’ metaphor was a good idea? Even the Tories have given up on that one.

Dealing with climate crisis should have to mean lower growth. We just have to do things differently.


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[ronaldo7]

Big Speech today from Liverpool.

Essentially, Starmer-No nationalisation, I’ve changed my mind.
Starmer-Growth, growth, growth.
Spending-There are no ‘magic money tree’ economics.

How private capital owning all Britains utilities are ever going to meet the needs of people struggling with cost of living, or how Growth Growth Growth! Fits in with the climate crisis, he hasn’t yet been pushed on.

And, who the **** thought dredging up George Osbornes ‘money tree’ metaphor was a good idea? Even the Tories have given up on that one.

We'll have to ask "Scottish" Labour if they favour privatising Scot rail, and Scottish Water, or do they think Starmer is wrong.

Did he mention Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

Big Speech today from Liverpool.

Essentially, Starmer-No nationalisation, I’ve changed my mind.
Starmer-Growth, growth, growth.
Spending-There are no ‘magic money tree’ economics.

How private capital owning all Britains utilities are ever going to meet the needs of people struggling with cost of living, or how Growth Growth Growth! Fits in with the climate crisis, he hasn’t yet been pushed on.

And, who the **** thought dredging up George Osbornes ‘money tree’ metaphor was a good idea? Even the Tories have given up on that one.

And on the same day,

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220725/3d51625e7b205ae000ed15a89d4bb363.jpg


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[hibsbollah]

Dealing with climate crisis should have to mean lower growth. We just have to do things differently.


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I assume by your second sentence that you mistyped your first sentence. If so, I totally disagree. We have to accept that eternal GDP growth is not sustainable.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220725/78403475e92d196d4f31c798b77c936a.jpg

I thought this was already happening? Wasn’t he about about to publish his grand plan?


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[Bostonhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220725/78403475e92d196d4f31c798b77c936a.jpg

I thought this was already happening? Wasn’t he about about to publish his grand plan?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think that since they are so similar to the Nasty party on so many fronts like Scotland for example a merger might be his preferred option?

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[cabbageandribs1875]

absolutely 110% bang on the button, well said that auld dear :agree:


(1) Tory Fibs on Twitter: "Sir Keir Starmer came to Liverpool today. This is what Liverpool had to say to Sir Keir. https://t.co/4qQzYBIkHk" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1551594412781846530?fbclid=IwAR1YlkqZGyI40mUb152MC e6z1_JLF-Go258vtlf5I-PABNxOZnSq60YTWrc)

"we may as well have a Tory if we have a person like you"


beautifully put :aok: one day all Labour membership will realise what Starmers Labour is all about, and the sooner the unions start withdrawing the funding of his moderate Tory party the better :agree: though i do think quite a few labour voters are perfectly happy with that little swing to the right they've taken



i'm just very surprised Starmer didn't organise a raft of union jacks in the background

[Bishop Hibee]

There is no significant left of centre party to vote for in the U.K. I include the SNP in that. For me, voting SNP is a means to hopefully a left of centre party taking power in Scotland post-Indy. Zero chance of it happening in the U.K.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There is no significant left of centre party to vote for in the U.K. I include the SNP in that. For me, voting SNP is a means to hopefully a left of centre party taking power in Scotland post-Indy. Zero chance of it happening in the U.K.

I would agree with that.

[wookie70]

absolutely 110% bang on the button, well said that auld dear :agree:


(1) Tory Fibs on Twitter: "Sir Keir Starmer came to Liverpool today. This is what Liverpool had to say to Sir Keir. https://t.co/4qQzYBIkHk" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1551594412781846530?fbclid=IwAR1YlkqZGyI40mUb152MC e6z1_JLF-Go258vtlf5I-PABNxOZnSq60YTWrc)

"we may as well have a Tory if we have a person like you"


beautifully put :aok: one day all Labour membership will realise what Starmers Labour is all about, and the sooner the unions start withdrawing the funding of his moderate Tory party the better :agree: though i do think quite a few labour voters are perfectly happy with that little swing to the right they've taken



i'm just very surprised Starmer didn't organise a raft of union jacks in the background

I was cheering her on and agreed with every word she said. Starmer was like a rabbit in the headlights. I think I hate Tories in red more than I do those in blue. He needs to be toppled. I get the feeling if Andy Burnham was Labour Leader they would win a massive majority at the next election

[ronaldo7]

absolutely 110% bang on the button, well said that auld dear :agree:


(1) Tory Fibs on Twitter: "Sir Keir Starmer came to Liverpool today. This is what Liverpool had to say to Sir Keir. https://t.co/4qQzYBIkHk" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1551594412781846530?fbclid=IwAR1YlkqZGyI40mUb152MC e6z1_JLF-Go258vtlf5I-PABNxOZnSq60YTWrc)

"we may as well have a Tory if we have a person like you"


beautifully put :aok: one day all Labour membership will realise what Starmers Labour is all about, and the sooner the unions start withdrawing the funding of his moderate Tory party the better :agree: though i do think quite a few labour voters are perfectly happy with that little swing to the right they've taken



i'm just very surprised Starmer didn't organise a raft of union jacks in the background

Liverpool never fails to impress, whether giving it tight to Burnham, where he couldn't fail to act, but starmer will just shrug this off, and fall back into his vanilla ways.

[Hibbyradge]

I think I hate Tories in red more than I do those in blue. He needs to be toppled.

People told me that I was was making it up when I said that folk on the left preferred the Tories.

[wookie70]

People told me that I was was making it up when I said that folk on the left preferred the Tories.

For me Starmer is a Tory but dressed in a red tie so my preference is for those on the left to be members of the Labour Party. I hate that he has infiltrated a party that is for workers. Would you prefer someone who said they were going to punch you in the face and gave you a chance to duck or someone who said I support you and then punched you in the face. He is a liar and a coward so that puts him right at place in the Tory Party

[ballengeich]

I assume by your second sentence that you mistyped your first sentence. If so, I totally disagree. We have to accept that eternal GDP growth is not sustainable.
I agree with you on this and think that it's something even the Greens are unwilling to address. The mainstream political view is that if we just develop technology which provides power without carbon emissions (not a given) then we can have an ever expanding population each consuming more every year.

There are a lot of other problems building up. Food supply is one. In the UK we only produce 60% of what we eat, and what we do produce is heavily dependent on fertilisers which cause other environmental damage and don't have indefinite availability. As populations and consumption rise elsewhere, our food security is dubious.

The environment should be the main concern for all serious politicians, but if you tell people they can't get wealthier you won't get elected.

[Hibbyradge]

For me Starmer is a Tory but dressed in a red tie so my preference is for those on the left to be members of the Labour Party. I hate that he has infiltrated a party that is for workers. Would you prefer someone who said they were going to punch you in the face and gave you a chance to duck or someone who said I support you and then punched you in the face. He is a liar and a coward so that puts him right at place in the Tory Party

He's trying to get Labour elected. I prefer that.

It's simple to me. If you prefer the Tories, you're a Tory.

[hibsbollah]

People told me that I was was making it up when I said that folk on the left preferred the Tories.

Until Starmer gives us a single policy that makes him any different then there’s no noticeable difference between the two. I don’t think we’re even committed to overturning the Rwanda policy as it stands.

[hibsbollah]

He's trying to get Labour elected. I prefer that.

It's simple to me. If you prefer the Tories, you're a Tory.

Well you can go round in circles with that thinking. The Forde report told us that large numbers of Labour Head Office deliberately campaigned against socialist candidates in 2017. Seats that could have pushed us over the line to a majority instead of a hung parliament. Lots of those people clearly preferred having Theresa May in power than Jeremy Corbyn, and there are plenty others like them. That’s way more relevant. Most people like me who have had the insides kicked out of them by the Labour establishment just slope off to the greens or don’t bother voting at all than actually ‘turn Tory’ like that Ian Austin character.

[hibsbollah]

I agree with you on this and think that it's something even the Greens are unwilling to address. The mainstream political view is that if we just develop technology which provides power without carbon emissions (not a given) then we can have an ever expanding population each consuming more every year.

There are a lot of other problems building up. Food supply is one. In the UK we only produce 60% of what we eat, and what we do produce is heavily dependent on fertilisers which cause other environmental damage and don't have indefinite availability. As populations and consumption rise elsewhere, our food security is dubious.

The environment should be the main concern for all serious politicians, but if you tell people they can't get wealthier you won't get elected.

:agree: It’s a great un-sayable. Saying we don’t want to GrowGrowGrow every year doesn’t have to mean we have to start going around dressed in sacks and eating turnips. But it’s obvious that carbon offsetting and all these other economic slight of hands are no more than PR.

Maybe Labours Green New Deal from 2017 is one of Starmers pledges he hasn’t reversed, who knows?

[Hibbyradge]

Well you can go round in circles with that thinking. The Forde report told us that large numbers of Labour Head Office deliberately campaigned against socialist candidates in 2017. Seats that could have pushed us over the line to a majority instead of a hung parliament. Lots of those people clearly preferred having Theresa May in power than Jeremy Corbyn, and there are plenty others like them. That’s way more relevant. Most people like me who have had the insides kicked out of them by the Labour establishment just slope off to the greens or don’t bother voting at all than actually ‘turn Tory’ like that Ian Austin character.

As I said, if you prefer the Tories, you're a Tory, regardless of your reasons.

There's no need to go round in circles.

[He's here!]

He's trying to get Labour elected. I prefer that.

It's simple to me. If you prefer the Tories, you're a Tory.

Indeed. After Labour suffered their most disastrous election result in almost a century Starmer has a massive rebuilding job on his hands. The problem is that even as the Tories do their best to push voters away Starmer lacks the Blair-esque charisma required to scoop them up.

It's surely little surprise though that after the shambles of the Corbyn era he's looking to remodel the party along the lines of the one which enjoyed the most sustained period of success in its history.

Sticking to 'traditional Labour values' only makes sense if you're content to remain unelectable.

[Jack]

Well hopefully Labour (and the other opposition parties) are filling their notebooks up with all the mud slinging that's the tory leadership battle for use in the months and years ahead.

[Smartie]

Well hopefully Labour (and the other opposition parties) are filling their notebooks up with all the mud slinging that's the tory leadership battle for use in the months and years ahead.

They'll probably just use it as some sort of peculiar inspiration and copy it, using it on each other.

[hibsbollah]

As I said, if you prefer the Tories, you're a Tory, regardless of your reasons.

There's no need to go round in circles.

Except I never said that, you’re making things up. I said there’s not much difference between Starmer and the Tories, until he tells us some policies that demonstrate otherwise.

[ronaldo7]

When Sir Keir turns his back on Nationalisation, his MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington reminds him of this.

Nationalisation is agreed Labour Party policy, in the manifesto we were all elected on.
More importantly, it is vital for the economic transformation we need, to cut the cost of living, create well-paid jobs and end the dearth of investment.

[Hibbyradge]

Except I never said that, you’re making things up. I said there’s not much difference between Starmer and the Tories, until he tells us some policies that demonstrate otherwise.

I never said that you said it.

I was referring to the people who do prefer the Tories to Labour, whether they're on the left or the right, as in your example.

[hibsbollah]

When Sir Keir turns his back on Nationalisation, his MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington reminds him of this.

Nationalisation is agreed Labour Party policy, in the manifesto we were all elected on.
More importantly, it is vital for the economic transformation we need, to cut the cost of living, create well-paid jobs and end the dearth of investment.

It just crossed my mind that at least Blair and his advisors had the balls to revoke Clause 4 in 1995 publicly. Kinnock paved the way for them by taking on conference first. Starmer has moved 360 degrees on public ownership, from it being the policy he was elected on in 2019, with not a whisper of consultation or debate. No party does that sort of 3 point turn ****. Maos China possibly after the good Chairman fell out with Kruschev and decided international socialism was a bad idea. So Starmer has followed Maos lead. I can’t wait for the Cultural Revolution :greengrin

It’s deeply undemocratic and it never gets talked about. And it’s UNPOPULAR with the electorate, take it in please stop talking about how it’s about winning elections, they’re not going to win by being not quite as horrible as Boris but with no different policies to solve the country’s problems.

[hibsbollah]

I never said that you said it.

I was referring to the people who do prefer the Tories to Labour, whether they're on the left or the right, as in your example.

Fair enough then. I’d prefer a frontal lobotomy to the Tories personally :aok:

[Hibbyradge]

Fair enough then. I’d prefer a frontal lobotomy to the Tories personally :aok:

I know and I would never accuse you of that.

[RIP]

As a Scottish Labour Party member I’m hoping for a free vote on the constitution at Indy2, whatever that looks like.

Getting into bed with Brown and his Tory friends in Better Together was tantamount to committing electoral suicide in Scotland.

Despite the party line, 350,000 Labour supporters still voted Yes. There are still many loyal SLP members and supporters who are ready to back Independence in turn for an end to Tory Rule.

[Hibrandenburg]

Seems like sky news are leading with Labour's Sam Tarry being a very naughty boy for joining RMT on the picket line. If only we had a party that supported workers and unions and helped even the imbalance between employers and employees. :rolleyes:

Good on Sam Tarry for standing up against his New Tory leadership. What a sad ****ing state of affairs we have in that Labour consider it necessary to turn against workers and the unions to win votes.

[Hibbyradge]

Seems like sky news are leading with Labour's Sam Tarry being a very naughty boy for joining RMT on the picket line. If only we had a party that supported workers and unions and helped even the imbalance between employers and employees. :rolleyes:

Good on Sam Tarry for standing up against his New Tory leadership. What a sad ****ing state of affairs we have in that Labour consider it necessary to turn against workers and the unions to win votes.

It's not a new thing though.

Labour has struggled with strikes for decades. If they're seen to support the strikers, they're accused of being in the pockets of the unions and all that flows from that.

They really need to be hammering the government for failing to sort it out at every possible opportunity. Failing to do anything about it at all.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not a new thing though.

Labour has struggled with strikes for decades. If they're seen to support the strikers, they're accused of being in the pockets of the unions and all that flows from that.

They really need to be hammering the government for failing to sort it out at every possible opportunity. Failing to do anything about it at all.

They should be seen to support the strikers, otherwise they can legitimately be accused of being in the pockets of large corporations like the Tories are.

By not supporting the strikes, Labour are basically saying the strikes are unjustified and that Labour are no longer the worker's party. What's the point of a Labour Party that doesn't support the workers. No wonder the red wall crumbled when people struggle to distinguish between Labour and Tory policy.

[Just Alf]

They should be seen to support the strikers, otherwise they can legitimately be accused of being in the pockets of large corporations like the Tories are.

By not supporting the strikes, Labour are basically saying the strikes are unjustified and that Labour are no longer the worker's party. What's the point of a Labour Party that doesn't support the workers. No wonder the red wall crumbled when people struggle to distinguish between Labour and Tory policy.Looks like they're now doing the complete opposite of supporting the strikes!

BBC News - Keir Starmer sacks shadow transport minister who backed rail strikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62325842

[hibsbollah]

Looks like they're now doing the complete opposite of supporting the strikes!

BBC News - Keir Starmer sacks shadow transport minister who backed rail strikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62325842

What an absolute ****ing joke.
The subtext? Picket line=badge of shame.
It’s actually terrible what has happened to the Labour Party.

[Just Alf]

What an absolute ****ing joke.
The subtext? Picket line=badge of shame.
It’s actually terrible what has happened to the Labour Party.Yup, as an indy supporter I'd always assumed I'll gravitate towards Labour if we were ever independent, that's up in the air as it stands, and i think the Scottish Labour Party will need to do a fair bit of persuading to get folks like me back onside.

[He's here!]

Looks like they're now doing the complete opposite of supporting the strikes!

BBC News - Keir Starmer sacks shadow transport minister who backed rail strikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62325842

Sounds like it was a good opportunity to get rid of another Corbynite straggler on the Labour front bench.

[He's here!]

Yup, as an indy supporter I'd always assumed I'll gravitate towards Labour if we were ever independent, that's up in the air as it stands, and i think the Scottish Labour Party will need to do a fair bit of persuading to get folks like me back onside.

I've asked it before, but why would a party which people feel unable to vote for now be more attractive in the event Scotland became independent? Their anti-independence policy would presumably remain.

[Keith_M]

I've asked it before, but why would a party which people feel unable to vote for now be more attractive in the event Scotland became independent? Their anti-independence policy would presumably remain.


I think a lot of people are hoping that they would revert to something more akin to their original form, that of a party backing the Workers.

No idea how realistic that is, TBF.

[Hibrandenburg]

Looks like they're now doing the complete opposite of supporting the strikes!

BBC News - Keir Starmer sacks shadow transport minister who backed rail strikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62325842

What an utterly contemptible crock of ****. Come in agent Starmer your job is done.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Seems like sky news are leading with Labour's Sam Tarry being a very naughty boy for joining RMT on the picket line. If only we had a party that supported workers and unions and helped even the imbalance between employers and employees. :rolleyes:

Good on Sam Tarry for standing up against his New Tory leadership. What a sad ****ing state of affairs we have in that Labour consider it necessary to turn against workers and the unions to win votes.



and boyfriend of Angela Rayner

[Kato]

I think a lot of people are hoping that they would revert to something more akin to their original form, that of a party backing the Workers.

No idea how realistic that is, TBF.It wouldn't be the Scottish Labour Party. More than likely not even use the word "labour". Why would the UK Labour party continue in an independent Scotland?

Any left of centre party which had a semblance of a social contract in its manifesto would do very well post independence.

By "social contract" I mean policies that would create jobs, look after the country's infrastructure and enable a society where everyone has a chance at some pride in what they do. What i dont mean is the "managed decline", "here's yer benefits", "profit is everything" policies which UK Labour and their more voracious counterparts have preferred over the last couple lof decades.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Kato]

What an utterly contemptible crock of ****. Come in agent Starmer your job is done.Try to ride two horses better make sure you know how to fall.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

I've asked it before, but why would a party which people feel unable to vote for now be more attractive in the event Scotland became independent? Their anti-independence policy would presumably remain.

An independent labour party, free from the shackles of having to win support in the English home counties, would thrive in an independent Scotland, the Tories would have to completely reinvent themselves and would likely also take voters from the SNP once the dust has settled.

[hibsbollah]

Billy Bragg nails it.

The sacking of Sam Tarry by Kier Starmer is the worse kind of New Labour control freakery. Done to impress the Daily Mail, it will alienate many of Labour’s natural supporters and demoralise local activists. Utterly self defeating.

I voted for Starmer in the leadership contest on the basis of the pledges he made. Among them was the following:

“7. Strengthen Workers Rights and Trade Unions:

Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and weakening of workplace rights.”

I now feel I’ve been duped. And that’s a particularly bitter feeling after years of being angered by Johnson’s lies. What happened to trust, to sticking to your principles?

Starmer pledged to work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions. That’s where Samuel Tarry stood today and he deserves our solidarity.

[marinello59]

Billy Bragg nails it.

The sacking of Sam Tarry by Kier Starmer is the worse kind of New Labour control freakery. Done to impress the Daily Mail, it will alienate many of Labour’s natural supporters and demoralise local activists. Utterly self defeating.

I voted for Starmer in the leadership contest on the basis of the pledges he made. Among them was the following:

“7. Strengthen Workers Rights and Trade Unions:

Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and weakening of workplace rights.”

I now feel I’ve been duped. And that’s a particularly bitter feeling after years of being angered by Johnson’s lies. What happened to trust, to sticking to your principles?

Starmer pledged to work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions. That’s where Samuel Tarry stood today and he deserves our solidarity.

Can’t argue with any of that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Billy Bragg nails it.

The sacking of Sam Tarry by Kier Starmer is the worse kind of New Labour control freakery. Done to impress the Daily Mail, it will alienate many of Labour’s natural supporters and demoralise local activists. Utterly self defeating.

I voted for Starmer in the leadership contest on the basis of the pledges he made. Among them was the following:

“7. Strengthen Workers Rights and Trade Unions:

Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and weakening of workplace rights.”

I now feel I’ve been duped. And that’s a particularly bitter feeling after years of being angered by Johnson’s lies. What happened to trust, to sticking to your principles?

Starmer pledged to work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions. That’s where Samuel Tarry stood today and he deserves our solidarity.

:top marks:

[He's here!]

An independent labour party, free from the shackles of having to win support in the English home counties, would thrive in an independent Scotland, the Tories would have to completely reinvent themselves and would likely also take voters from the SNP once the dust has settled.

Would either Scottish Labour or the Scottish Conservatives exist in an independent Scotland? They would have no obvious reason to operate under those names as they'd no longer be affiliated to the UK parties.

[heretoday]

Starmer should resign.

[Keith_M]

Would either Scottish Labour or the Scottish Conservatives exist in an independent Scotland? They would have no obvious reason to operate under those names as they'd no longer be affiliated to the UK parties.


I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a political party in Scotland called Labour, that tries to stand by the principles that the Labour party of old held dear.

The 'Conservative and Unionist Party', on the other hand, would possibly seem a tad out of place.

[Pretty Boy]

I'd always argued that the Labour movement was a constantly evolving entity and New Labour was as much a part of it as the Labour of Hardie, Bevan, Attlee or Benn.

This isn't evolution though. It's an abandonment of the most fundamental principles of the Labour Party. I've always been the softest of Yes voters when it comes to independence. I'm still at heart unenthusiastic about the wishy washy propositions for independence but if the alternative is the Tories or a Labour leader who has abandoned all sense of what Labour are supposed to be all about then count me in.

When the alternative to the Tories is barely an alternative at all then you know you have issues. For all their faults at least Blair and Brown stood for something and, at least in a superficial way, improved people's lives. Starmer wants to woo Tory voters by acting like a ****ing Tory. **** him.

[He's here!]

I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a political party in Scotland called Labour, that tries to stand by the principles that the Labour party of old held dear.

The 'Conservative and Unionist Party', on the other hand, would possibly seem a tad out of place.

Just not clear how Scottish Labour, having fought tooth and nail against independence, would become a preferable option than the SNP to independence supporters.

[Hibrandenburg]

Would either Scottish Labour or the Scottish Conservatives exist in an independent Scotland? They would have no obvious reason to operate under those names as they'd no longer be affiliated to the UK parties.

What they call themselves is of little consequence, but when the deck is reshuffled they'll polarise themselves back into political groups similar to that what we have now, but without the need to be subservient to Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

I'd always had the Labour party down as the political wing of the trades union movement. It seems I was wrong.

He's totally lost the plot.

[marinello59]

I'd always had the Labour party down as the political wing of the trades union movement. It seems I was wrong.

He's totally lost the plot.

:agree:

[JimBHibees]

I'd always had the Labour party down as the political wing of the trades union movement. It seems I was wrong.

He's totally lost the plot.

Really makes no sense that decision

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Starmer needs to look himself in the mirror and see if he really is a man of principle, or if he's going to continually cast up his threat to resign if charged by the police over breaching Covid rules. Tarry gave a decent response to the BBC reporter who was following the current beeb narrative of making whatabbouttery a legitimate interview tack. This story would not have been a story if he had done nothing. Grant Shapps will be sending him a crate of beer tonight, not just one. Shameful. Nothing less than shameful.

[ronaldo7]

Neil Findlay calling starmer out as a liar and a charlatan.

[Andy Bee]

We're going to end up with another Tory Government innit?

[davy67 +]

We're going to end up with another Tory Government innit?

Id say that's almost a certainty, there's no chance of The Labour Party making any significant gains in Scotland and without that they've no chance of winning

[hibsbollah]

The Guardian isn’t running this story AT ALL today. Nothing about it on the first 22 items on headlines, even on U.K. News, even if you drill down to U.K. Politics news. You might have an Owen jones Op Ed piece in a few days I suppose. They don’t want to call Starmer out on this. Then when you do get someone from the trades Union movement, or Diane Abbott, or A random interviewed on the subject, the viewer or reader is in the dark, they wonder what the beef is in the Left, the chattering classes will wonder why this person seems so ANGRY, that’s what extremists and militants are LIKE, isn’t it?

[marinello59]

The Guardian isn’t running this story AT ALL today. Nothing about it on the first 22 items on headlines, even on U.K. News, even if you drill down to U.K. Politics news. You might have an Owen jones Op Ed piece in a few days I suppose. They don’t want to call Starmer out on this. Then when you do get someone from the trades Union movement, or Diane Abbott, or A random interviewed on the subject, the viewer or reader is in the dark, they wonder what the beef is in the Left, the chattering classes will wonder why this person seems so ANGRY, that’s what extremists and militants are LIKE, isn’t it?

It’s on the first page.:confused:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/27/sam-tarry-sacked-labour-frontbench-rail-strike-picket-line-keir-starmer

[hibsbollah]

It’s on the first page.:confused:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/27/sam-tarry-sacked-labour-frontbench-rail-strike-picket-line-keir-starmer

It isn’t. This is the front page, with it nowhere.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics

That link you’ve posted is to the story from 6pm last night, which you have to search for to find.

[lapsedhibee]

It isn’t. This is the front page, with it nowhere.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics



Isn't it at the bottom right of that page? It is on my desktop. Agree not very prominent. I think it was front page news yesterday.

[marinello59]

It isn’t. This is the front page, with it nowhere.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics

That link you’ve posted is to the story from 6pm last night, which you have to search for to find.

I searched Guardian… no mention of the story at all in my search …. And that was on the first page. I’ll pretend I haven’t seen it though. :greengrin

It is on the page you linked to there as well, two items about it.

[hibsbollah]

I searched Guardian… no mention of the story at all in my search …. And that was on the first page. I’ll pretend I haven’t seen it though. :greengrin

It is on the page you linked to there as well, two items about it.

I’m on my phone, but there’s 12 stories and some adverts. Absolutely nothing there.

Even if it’s about the functionality of our different devices :greengrin you do agree the leading leftish paper in the U.K. isn’t covering the story as much as you would expect, considering the anger that I’ve seen elsewhere? This is major news, there’s blood on the carpet in the shadow cabinet. It’s the most important U.K. politics story by some distance. I’d expect it to be at the top of the page, as it is on the bbc.

[lucky]

Appalling the decision by Starmer and the last straw for a lot of TU members. I’ve gutted by it, I’ve decided that I’m going to resign from the Labour Party. I do think the SLP are in a better place but it’s got to the stage where the U.K. Labour Party genuinely have nothing to offer the working class of this country

[Hibernia&Alba]

Appalling the decision by Starmer and the last straw for a lot of TU members. I’ve gutted by it, I’ve decided that I’m going to resign from the Labour Party. I do think the SLP are in a better place but it’s got to the stage where the U.K. Labour Party genuinely have nothing to offer the working class of this country

I agree with you, a huge blunder. I understand Starmer is afraid of being put on the defensive by the Tories and the right wing media, but this shouldn't be difficult. The railway workers haven't seen a pay rise in three rise and are striking because they have been denied a below inflation pay claim. If Labour can't support that, then what is their purpose?

Starmer is trying to navigate a tricky strategy to win an election, but at some point you have to pick a side, and here we are in a cost of living crisis with millions of people struggling to make ends meet. Labour could use this to show they are with the majority of working people, but Starmer, IMHO, has chickened out and caved, fearing the Tory press reaction. Be courageous and do the right thing.

[CapitalGreen]

I’m on my phone, but there’s 12 stories and some adverts. Absolutely nothing there.

Even if it’s about the functionality of our different devices :greengrin you do agree the leading leftish paper in the U.K. isn’t covering the story as much as you would expect, considering the anger that I’ve seen elsewhere? This is major news, there’s blood on the carpet in the shadow cabinet. It’s the most important U.K. politics story by some distance. I’d expect it to be at the top of the page, as it is on the bbc.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYs8I4DWIAAyMy_?format=jpg&name=medium

[Keith_M]

Just not clear how Scottish Labour, having fought tooth and nail against independence, would become a preferable option than the SNP to independence supporters.


The sole purpose of the Labour Party isn't supposed to be a vehicle to oppose independence. If Scotland became an independent nation, they're hardly likely to just give up the ghost and hide in the cupboard crying and waving a wee Union Jack.

Plus the fact that not all Labour supporters are opposed to independence, it just so happens that this is (currently) the party's official line.

[Hibbyradge]

Appalling the decision by Starmer and the last straw for a lot of TU members. I’ve gutted by it, I’ve decided that I’m going to resign from the Labour Party. I do think the SLP are in a better place but it’s got to the stage where the U.K. Labour Party genuinely have nothing to offer the working class of this country

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?

[wookie70]

I've asked it before, but why would a party which people feel unable to vote for now be more attractive in the event Scotland became independent? Their anti-independence policy would presumably remain.

It isn't the party it is the ideology. I would describe myself as a Labour Voter. I always vote Labour when they have leaders and policies which are good for working people. That is the type of party that would flourish in an Independent Scotland where most of the population are at least left leaning and definitely community spirited. I think a party like that would form and be the biggest party in an Independent Scotland.

The current version of Labour isn't so much New Labour as it is Naw Labour. Starmer has no interest in anything apart from power. He doesn't want to make working people's life better he wants to achieve a personal goal.

I would vote for "Labour" in a heartbeat if they were a left wing party. They are not imo and that leaves many voters like me with no home for our votes if we want to use them to potentially win an election. I now vote Green as it is the closest party to what I would see as the Labour Party

[Hibrandenburg]

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?

An alternative to the Tories is what they should be offering. If Labour keep offering the same as the Tories then nothing will ever change. It's up to Labour to convince the electorate that working class kids having decent schooling, pensioners having heating, working parents being able to feed, clothe and accommodate their kids are good ideas and are achievable. The country is crying out for leadership and all Labour are offering is more of the same.

[Hibrandenburg]

It isn't the party it is the ideology. I would describe myself as a Labour Voter. I always vote Labour when they have leaders and policies which are good for working people. That is the type of party that would flourish in an Independent Scotland where most of the population are at least left leaning and definitely community spirited. I think a party like that would form and be the biggest party in an Independent Scotland.

The current version of Labour isn't so much New Labour as it is Naw Labour. Starmer has no interest in anything apart from power. He doesn't want to make working people's life better he wants to achieve a personal goal.

I would vote for "Labour" in a heartbeat if they were a left wing party. They are not imo and that leaves many voters like me with no home for our votes if we want to use them to potentially win an election. I now vote Green as it is the closest party to what I would see as the Labour Party

Same here, I've never voted for ANY other party than Labour in UK elections but they have no vision and apparently no convictions.

[neil7908]

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?

I do get this argument but this isn't the US - we don't have a two party system.

If it was and we were being offered Democrats or Republicans then I would suggest people hold their nose and vote for the least worst option.

However, in Scotland you have the Greens, SNP etc that are offering an alternative left wing agenda. Yes they won't ever gain a majority but could form part of a centre left coalition with Labour.

Except Starmer is saying no.

I am increasing seeing him as a Boris like character - he will do or say anything to get into power. And why would I trust this man to make positive changes when he gets there?

[Bostonhibby]

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?I am extremely uncomfortable with where Starmer currently seems to / has to be on some issues, like this one for example.

Can just about see why he is having to do it as the Nasty party friendly media do sadly influence far too many with their disproportionately right wing bias and coverage.

I guess he is having to take a lead from the Bozo play book and say what he needs to to actually gain power then implement what he wants to do if/when he actually gets there.

A sad indictment of our politics today.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?

What do they offer the working class if they are in power doing what the Tories would do.

Imagine Mercer had been successful but changed his vision and decided to keep two teams. The team known as Hibs would also play at Tynecastle, play in maroon and only cardigan wearing fans with Union Jacks would be allowed to come to the games. They would still have been called Hibs but I can't see me supporting them. That for me is what Starmer is doing to the Labour Party and voting for any party he is in would be the same as cheering the Jambos on for me.

[He's here!]

What do they offer the working class when they're permanently in opposition?


Nothing meaningful is the answer. We've seen what happens at the ballot box when Labour campaigns on a 'working class' ticket.

Incidentally, while I'm aware these strikes involve rail workers from across the spectrum of roles, is it not also fair to question whether a train driver earning 50k plus is 'working class'?

[Hibernia&Alba]

I am extremely uncomfortable with where Starmer currently seems to / has to be on some issues, like this one for example.

Can just about see why he is having to do it as the Nasty party friendly media do sadly influence far too many with their disproportionately right wing bias and coverage.

I guess he is having to take a lead from the Bozo play book and say what he needs to to actually gain power then implement what he wants to do if/when he actually gets there.

A sad indictment of our politics today.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

That's certainly part of the reason. Starmer is on the right wing of Labour anyway, but he's also certainly trying to deprive the Tory press and media commentators of ammunition to fire at Labour. He sees support of the rail strikes as an issue they would exploit, and rightly so. However, it's an issue he could use in a positive way, to demonstrate empathy for working families during a cost of living crisis. He's too defensive; be proud to support low paid workers and use their suffering to attack the Tories.

He can't win with the right wing media anyway; they will never get behind Labour, so use this issue to take the fight to them. Put them on the defensive about the state of the country, when they have been in government for twelve years. A bit of optimism that change is possible.

[SHODAN]

The "Labour" Party

[Hibbyradge]

That's certainly part of the reason. Starmer is on the right wing of Labour anyway, but he's also certainly trying to deprive the Tory press and media commentators of ammunition to fire at Labour. He sees support of the rail strikes as an issue they would exploit, and rightly so. However, it's an issue he could use in a positive way, to demonstrate empathy for working families during a cost of living crisis. He's too defensive; be proud to support low paid workers and use their suffering to attack the Tories.

He can't win with the right wing media anyway; they will never get behind Labour, so use this issue to take the fight to them. Put them on the defensive about the state of the country, when they have been in government for twelve years. A bit of optimism that change is possible.

The media supported Labour under Blair.

Starmer doesn't want to give the Tories any ammunition whether that be on policy or political position.

The Tories are already trying to blame Labour for the strikes and it won't take much for them to say Starmer is Corbyn mark II.

I desperately want the Tories out and there's a very good chance of achieving that. There's no point risking it with futile gestures and posturing.

Once Starmer gets the keys to number 10 we can judge him on his politics. Right now, it's all purely electioneering, even if it's a difficult pill to swallow.

[Pretty Boy]

Nothing meaningful is the answer. We've seen what happens at the ballot box when Labour campaigns on a 'working class' ticket.

Incidentally, while I'm aware these strikes involve rail workers from across the spectrum of roles, is it not also fair to question whether a train driver earning 50k plus is 'working class'?

When Labour ran on a genuinely left wing ticket in 2017 they polled their greatest number of votes since 1997 by a considerable distance. Up over 3M on Miliband, 4M on Brown and outperforming 01 and 05 Blair by 2M and 3M respectively. Even the 'disastrous' 2019 election when compared to recent elections bettered all but 97 and 01 by some way in terms of number of votes. Of course you have to give consideration to a system that allows someone to garner 43% of the popular vote but walk away with 56% of the seats.........

The idea that there is no appetite for left wing politics in the UK is a total fallacy. In 2017 the nominally left or centre-left parties (Labour, SNP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, Greens, Alliance and SDLP for the purpose of this post) gained 46.3% of the vote, in 2019 it was just below 41% in what was ultimately a single issue election. That's a sizeable minority of people willing to put their cross in the box of left leaning candidates.

The fundamental issue Labour has is that this lurch back to the centre ground (arguable even centre right in some instances now) will cost them swathes of votes among the younger demographics who were engaged for the 1st time under Corbyn. As of yet there isn't a huge amount of evidence it's going to be offset by Barry T Homeowner or Geoff C Bumpkin deciding that Starmer is actually alright. Polling currently has Labour anywhere up to 9 points ahead but that's against the worst government led by the worst PM in my lifetime (certainly that I have been aware of). A party essentially at war with itself is still well in touch despite Starmers revolution. If there was an election tomorrow a hung parliament would be a very likely outcome. That's ****ing pathetic in a shoot out with a cabal of xenophobes, liars, fraudsters, sociopaths and psychopaths.

Labour has to stop being scared of what it is and where it came from. What worked for Blair can't be repeated in a different age with different questions and different needs. Blair was off his time. he was young, fresh and presented a lot of people with exactly what they wanted. There's scant evidence that Starmer is doing the same now. He's alienating a core support and making modest gains elsewhere.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The media supported Labour under Blair.

Starmer doesn't want to give the Tories any ammunition whether that be on policy or political position.

The Tories are already trying to blame Labour for the strikes and it won't take much for them to say Starmer is Corbyn mark II.

I desperately want the Tories out and there's a very good chance of achieving that. There's no point risking it with futile gestures and posturing.

Once Starmer gets the keys to number 10 we can judge him on his politics. Right now, it's all purely electioneering, even if it's a difficult pill to swallow.

I don't agree with your analysis. I think Labour could cut through the Tory press and appeal straight to the public by supporting struggling workers during austerity and high inflation. Use the the rail dispute to highlight how this government has failed millions of families; go on a media blitz with it. Take control of the narrative and thus pre-empt the stale Tory attacks on trade unions. Here they risk falling between two stools: by trying to please everyone they please no-one and turn off their core voters, as happened in Scotland under Blair and Brown.

The Sun switched to New Labour after Blair buddied up to Murdoch in 1997, but it soon went back Tory and the rest of the right wing papers never switched at all. They will never support Labour; trying to win them over won't work.

I think Starmer is squandering an opportunity here and will merely make more Labour voters apathetic.

[Pretty Boy]

I don't agree with your analysis. I think Labour could cut through the Tory press and appeal straight to the public by supporting struggling workers during austerity and high inflation. Use the the rail dispute to highlight how this government has failed millions of families; go on a media blitz with it. Take control of the narrative and thus pre-empt the stale Tory attacks on trade unions. Here they risk falling between two stools: by trying to please everyone they please no-one and turn off their core voters, as happened in Scotland under Blair and Brown.

The Sun switched to New Labour after Blair buddied up to Murdoch in 1997, but it soon went back Tory and the rest of the right wing papers never switched at all. They will never support Labour; trying to win them over won't work.

I think Starmer is squandering an opportunity here and will merely make more Labour voters apathetic.

The rail strikes have arguably shown how peoples opinions and positions can be shifted through meaningful communication.

Prior and immediately after the commencement of the 1st round of strikes polling suggested a decent majority opposed the action. Whilst I'm sure there where other factors after a couple of days of Mick Lynch going on TV and making his case eloquently, passionately and truthfully that polling shifted and polling suggested there was a small majority in support of the action. Opinion has shifted again and a majority again oppose but interestingly, if not entirely surprisingly, support for the strikes remains highest among younger demographics. 18-24 sees 49% showing some level of support against 32% opposing, 25-49 sees 40% support v 38% opposition. In over 65s opposition sits at 65%....... Moreover 59% of Labour voters support the strikers against 14% of Tories. It's madness to potentially alienate your own voters to try and curry favour with people who fundamentally disagree with you.

[ronaldo7]

I agree with you, a huge blunder. I understand Starmer is afraid of being put on the defensive by the Tories and the right wing media, but this shouldn't be difficult. The railway workers haven't seen a pay rise in three rise and are striking because they have been denied a below inflation pay claim. If Labour can't support that, then what is their purpose?

Starmer is trying to navigate a tricky strategy to win an election, but at some point you have to pick a side, and here we are in a cost of living crisis with millions of people struggling to make ends meet. Labour could use this to show they are with the majority of working people, but Starmer, IMHO, has chickened out and caved, fearing the Tory press reaction. Be courageous and do the right thing.

Agreed.

If he can't articulate a message about standing with workers who've had 12 years of Tory austerity forced upon them, inflation at 10%, and energy prices going up so fast they'll put millions into fuel poverty, he's not the leader labour need.

They've gone from labour, to new labour, to blue labour.

[Moulin Yarns]

The "Labour" Party

Preceded by a pregnant pause. 😉

[hibsbollah]

Transport union leader now getting stuck into Starmer, albeit just on politics home.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicshome.com%2Ftheho use%2Farticle%2Fsam-tarry-manuel-cortes-tssa%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3BD9Flbwu9c6lE0jwJOEWNlZYBD8tP cR2TmRDskde4TATBZC2ANUpPgsc&h=AT07W6q93LHu9-o34PrETpGOppoIwKUWVRrAVkXE4s5SPynmKfJsU7aGRYhs1cn8 2Ktlt3z0IIOCCFDaNQqQR9g9bZFQbKHBSMr3AAcHlrAJ0nhoVi 4eUDMRNJn8pVExrnfzey1MrA8oRZD3RRH35NsfU2dIm6RJ&s=1

[ronaldo7]

A Scottish union boss has resigned from the Labour Party over the sacking of a shadow transport minister who joined striking rail workers on a picket line.

Labour said Sam Tarry had been dropped from Sir Keir Starmer's front bench for making unauthorised media appearances.

But the UK party leader has also told his shadow team not to join pickets.

Kevin Lindsay, Scotland organiser for the Aslef union, said the sacking was "a step too far" and that Sir Keir was failing to stand up for workers.

He is calling for the rail group to cut its ties with Labour altogether, saying the party was "more interested in trying to woo Tory voters in the shires of England than representing working people".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62334775

[ronaldo7]

Owen Jones took yesterday's sacking particularly badly.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1552331953310949376

[stoneyburn hibs]

A Tory Patsy
Not the 1st time it's been said.
He's basically had the whole time as Labour leader to hit countless open goals, both in and out of parliament.
Then sacks a minister for speaking to media during a strlke.

The Labour party leader.

[He's here!]

The sole purpose of the Labour Party isn't supposed to be a vehicle to oppose independence. If Scotland became an independent nation, they're hardly likely to just give up the ghost and hide in the cupboard crying and waving a wee Union Jack.

Plus the fact that not all Labour supporters are opposed to independence, it just so happens that this is (currently) the party's official line.

What if they maintained a pro-union stance and backed a campaign for another referendum to rejoin the UK?

It's interesting that independence supporters appear to assume that were they ever to achieve their goal that the result would be respected across the board. I remember thinking back in 2014 that I'd just have to roll with it should the unthinkable happen - and I believe the majority would have felt that way - but after eight years of relentless SNP whinging I'm not so sure a winning yes vote would now be so readily respected (particularly if it was a close-run thing).

[cabbageandribs1875]

Baillie spouting irresponsible utter p@sh as per, truly shameful indeed

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/296156079_10227827525256189_4904262442509592885_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=V5_4UV1WCYYAX87pChD&_nc_oc=AQn14KwYuP_A6vPwBv4QuvS2PBd4b22JifG5UpIb3ma xg-3OCwcNRzNzy3C-S6wyv_w&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT83EiGV75thwvbbwAA5tnOwSRaHPXwg82GBfjuXAWJS hw&oe=62E80BCC

[Glory Lurker]

Appalling the decision by Starmer and the last straw for a lot of TU members. I’ve gutted by it, I’ve decided that I’m going to resign from the Labour Party. I do think the SLP are in a better place but it’s got to the stage where the U.K. Labour Party genuinely have nothing to offer the working class of this country

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you feel you've no choice but to do this, even if it means a rival party loses a member! I hope they give you reason to re-join soon.

[Kato]

A Tory Patsy
Not the 1st time it's been said.
He's basically had the whole time as Labour leader to hit countless open goals, both in and out of parliament.
Then sacks a minister for speaking to media during a strlke.

The Labour party leader.Difficult to argue with. He's to the right of John Major.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Don't do as I do, do as I say.

2019, probably thinking about all the pledges he can make up, and then break.

https://twitter.com/rgilmour11/status/1552724511719657488/photo/1

[weecounty hibby]

What if they maintained a pro-union stance and backed a campaign for another referendum to rejoin the UK?

It's interesting that independence supporters appear to assume that were they ever to achieve their goal that the result would be respected across the board. I remember thinking back in 2014 that I'd just have to roll with it should the unthinkable happen - and I believe the majority would have felt that way - but after eight years of relentless SNP whinging I'm not so sure a winning yes vote would now be so readily respected (particularly if it was a close-run thing).

If that was their stance then they wouldn't get much support from anyone who had voted SNP. My guess would be that a new Labour Party in Scotland would appear that was prepared to work within an independent Scotland.
Oh and just to be very very very clear if they chose to stand on a ticket of if they won they would hold a referendum to get back into the union then so be it. That is democracy and the very thing that you and your other chums on here are all too happy to deny the people of Scotland right now

[Keith_M]

I thought this one was quite good (Ben Jennings)

26055

[Keith_M]

What if they maintained a pro-union stance and backed a campaign for another referendum to rejoin the UK?

It's interesting that independence supporters appear to assume that were they ever to achieve their goal that the result would be respected across the board. I remember thinking back in 2014 that I'd just have to roll with it should the unthinkable happen - and I believe the majority would have felt that way - but after eight years of relentless SNP whinging I'm not so sure a winning yes vote would now be so readily respected (particularly if it was a close-run thing).



Feel free to post a list of all countries that have gained independence in the last 100 years... then a second list of all those that then reversed that decision and rejoined.

I'm sure we'd all be really interested to see that.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought this one was quite good (Ben Jennings)

26055

Starmer is toast if the reaction I'm seeing on social media is anything to go by. Whilst trying to keep the right wing press off his back he's lost the core support of the party he leads.

[Keith_M]

Starmer is toast if the reaction I'm seeing on social media is anything to go by. Whilst trying to keep the right wing press off his back he's lost the core support of the party he leads.


Yeah, even some of the Blairite Guardian writers are starting to turn against him.

[neil7908]

Starmer is toast if the reaction I'm seeing on social media is anything to go by. Whilst trying to keep the right wing press off his back he's lost the core support of the party he leads.

I'm not sure. Saw a poll today that had Labour 13% ahead of the Tories. I suspect what he's doing may well bring him success, but if they do make it into government it will unravel quickly as he'll be the one needing to make hard decisions.

It's much easier to be in opposition, especially after 12 years and running against a deeply unpopular government.

[neil7908]

This article perfectly encapsulates my current deep frustration with Labour under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/decriminalise-legalise-cannabis-sadiq-khan-drug-commission-wes-streeting-b1015100.html?amp

I'm not raising the matter of cannabis decriminalisation per se (although it baffles me that this issue isn't really spoken about in the UK given how many states in the US and other parts of the world have moved on from the war on drugs mentality).

But the below line, if true is so telling about what the party has become:

"At the time, Mr Streeting reportedly told a WhatsApp group of Labour MPs: “Does this make it more or less likely that we win a general election?”

Issues are no longer about right and wrong, what will help the country or those less well off. Everything is viewed through a prism of winning. And that strikes me as exactly what Boris has done his whole life. Do whatever it takes to win.

The question then is once you get power, what do you do? You have no moral compass or ideology to guide, and I'm unclear why suddenly getting into power will change the desire to win.

The question posed above about winning a General Election is just a true now as it will be the day after a Labour Government is formed.

The suggestion that a ruthless policy of moving right to win an election, only to suddenly adopt more traditional Labour values in power does not stack up.

[Hibrandenburg]

This article perfectly encapsulates my current deep frustration with Labour under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/decriminalise-legalise-cannabis-sadiq-khan-drug-commission-wes-streeting-b1015100.html?amp

I'm not raising the matter of cannabis decriminalisation per se (although it baffles me that this issue isn't really spoken about in the UK given how many states in the US and other parts of the world have moved on from the war on drugs mentality).

But the below line, if true is so telling about what the party has become:

"At the time, Mr Streeting reportedly told a WhatsApp group of Labour MPs: “Does this make it more or less likely that we win a general election?”

Issues are no longer about right and wrong, what will help the country or those less well off. Everything is viewed through a prism of winning. And that strikes me as exactly what Boris has done his whole life. Do whatever it takes to win.

The question then is once you get power, what do you do? You have no moral compass or ideology to guide, and I'm unclear why suddenly getting into power will change the desire to win.

The question posed above about winning a General Election is just a true now as it will be the day after a Labour Government is formed.

The suggestion that a ruthless policy of moving right to win an election, only to suddenly adopt more traditional Labour values in power does not stack up.

Mick Lynch said pretty much this in a recent interview.

[Pretty Boy]

This article perfectly encapsulates my current deep frustration with Labour under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/decriminalise-legalise-cannabis-sadiq-khan-drug-commission-wes-streeting-b1015100.html?amp

I'm not raising the matter of cannabis decriminalisation per se (although it baffles me that this issue isn't really spoken about in the UK given how many states in the US and other parts of the world have moved on from the war on drugs mentality).

But the below line, if true is so telling about what the party has become:

"At the time, Mr Streeting reportedly told a WhatsApp group of Labour MPs: “Does this make it more or less likely that we win a general election?”

Issues are no longer about right and wrong, what will help the country or those less well off. Everything is viewed through a prism of winning. And that strikes me as exactly what Boris has done his whole life. Do whatever it takes to win.

The question then is once you get power, what do you do? You have no moral compass or ideology to guide, and I'm unclear why suddenly getting into power will change the desire to win.

The question posed above about winning a General Election is just a true now as it will be the day after a Labour Government is formed.

The suggestion that a ruthless policy of moving right to win an election, only to suddenly adopt more traditional Labour values in power does not stack up.

It's the limitations of a 4 or 5 year parliament sadly. That shouldn't be read as anti democratic point. It's just an acceptance that as opposition a party are fighting to get into power and in government they are fighting to stay there. There is little opportunity of pushing through and genuinely radical or reformative legislation that changes the fundamentals of how we operate as a country, particularly in terms of economics.

If Starmer, or whoever else, has to sacrifice the basic principles of the Labour Party and the basic tenets of what the movement are about to gain power then it's foolish to believe he can immediately U turn when in power and push through radical legislation. His eyes are always going to be on winning the next election and that means continuing to pander to voters and a press who will never countenance Labour in power as a socialist party.

[Hibbyradge]

It's the limitations of a 4 or 5 year parliament sadly. That shouldn't be read as anti democratic point. It's just an acceptance that as opposition a party are fighting to get into power and in government they are fighting to stay there. There is little opportunity of pushing through and genuinely radical or reformative legislation that changes the fundamentals of how we operate as a country, particularly in terms of economics.

If Starmer, or whoever else, has to sacrifice the basic principles of the Labour Party and the basic tenets of what the movement are about to gain power then it's foolish to believe he can immediately U turn when in power and push through radical legislation. His eyes are always going to be on winning the next election and that means continuing to pander to voters and a press who will never countenance Labour in power as a socialist party.

Those are valid points, but the analogy of a huge oil tanker slowing before it turns around is appropriate here.

The only way to stop this horrible slide to the right is to elect a Labour government. In the UK obvs. Scotland has other options.

[The Modfather]

Those are valid points, but the analogy of a huge oil tanker slowing before it turns around is appropriate here.

The only way to stop this horrible slide to the right is to elect a Labour government. In the UK obvs. Scotland has other options.

Is the fundamental issue that voting in Labour only slows the slide to the right, it doesn’t stop it for the points PB made in the post above.

Vive le revolution! I wish there was a viable alternative centre left part out there. One that’s manifesto was more like a business plan. Elect us and we will do x because here is the business case for it and and the benefits will be y. They also be open and upfront during their term, we said we would do x for y reasons. Variable z means we have to do do this to x to still achieve y. Politics doesn’t have to be the current self serving, lying, self harm state that is the norm. Say what you will do, do what you say. Apply agile project management principles to running the country in an open and transparent way and surely that’s politics the majority can get on board with rather than, independence aside, spoiling my ballot paper being the best option.

[Glory Lurker]

Get rid of the House of Lords.

Just bringing the discussion to a thread about a party that claims to want to get rid of it, has had ample opportunity to do so, but still hasn't.

[Colr]

Get rid of the House of Lords.

Just bringing the discussion to a thread about a party that claims to want to get rid of it, has had ample opportunity to do so, but still hasn't.

Not just the HoL which will be toast if Johnson stuffs it full of acolytes who have paid and entrance fee to the Tory party.

He lied to the Queen and she did NOTHING. The constitutional monarchy is a myth. She has no actual power and has no interest in holding the government to the rules.

The monarchy needs to go. We need an elected head of state with a clearly defined role within a written consitution .

This will never happen which is why Scotland needs to go its own way.

[He's here!]

'Starmer: Labour can no longer be a party of protest':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62369125

[cabbageandribs1875]

:hilarious

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/296167008_2581199938686364_4452016768381424772_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=5COGykcBmykAX9pM5xA&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT-NY1MXYvgCEfXvq9ZIZYUKnIKpZjAjtpR3y7n7xcHgDA&oe=62EC52BB

[JeMeSouviens]

Is the fundamental issue that voting in Labour only slows the slide to the right, it doesn’t stop it for the points PB made in the post above.

Vive le revolution! I wish there was a viable alternative centre left part out there. One that’s manifesto was more like a business plan. Elect us and we will do x because here is the business case for it and and the benefits will be y. They also be open and upfront during their term, we said we would do x for y reasons. Variable z means we have to do do this to x to still achieve y. Politics doesn’t have to be the current self serving, lying, self harm state that is the norm. Say what you will do, do what you say. Apply agile project management principles to running the country in an open and transparent way and surely that’s politics the majority can get on board with rather than, independence aside, spoiling my ballot paper being the best option.

Electoral reform to PR would make a massive difference. Tories that can win with 40% are much more right wing than Tories who have to get near 50%. The whole Overton window would shift markedly toward sanity.

[Stairway 2 7]

@RedfieldWilton
·
Truss leads Starmer for the first time.

First time since March that a Conservative leads Starmer.

At this moment, which of the following individuals do voters think would be the better PM for the United Kingdom? (31 July)

Truss 37% (+4)
Starmer 36% (+2)

[Stairway 2 7]

People still prefer labour but not Starmer

RedfieldWilton
· 2h
Labour leads by 4%, narrowest lead since 5 June.

Westminster Voting Intention (31 July):

Labour 38% (-3)
Conservative 34% (+1)
Liberal Democrat 12% (–)
Green 7% (+2)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (+1)

[Pretty Boy]

It's almost like alienating your core support isn't a good idea.......

[Moulin Yarns]

Nandy and a couple of other front benchers join BT picket line in defiance of the boss

[hibsbollah]

Nandy and a couple of other front benchers join BT picket line in defiance of the boss

They are briefing against Nandy the same way as they briefed against Long Bailey before her sacking, and Corbyn before the whip was removed. Almost wore for word, being ‘dumbfounded’ and rewriting narratives. Coincidentally the two leadership candidates and the previous leader. When someone as centerfield as Nandy is being painted as some sort of radical you know everything’s gone a bit Stranger Things…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/01/bt-and-openreach-strike-lisa-nandy-visits-picket-line-in-wigan

[Pretty Boy]

It's amazing that in Greater Manchester Andy Burnham is re-regulating the transport infrastructure so that it is integrated, fares are capped and timetables and the like are brought back under public control and it barely merits a mention in the mainstream news. By modern standards it's a pretty radical move and it will at a stroke remove rip off fares of up to £4 for a single journey.

It's not radically left wing, it's just a common sense policy that will actually help ordinary people. I was always ambivalent to Burnham. He was painted as the Blairite candidate, somewhat unfairly imo, when he stood for leader and there does sometimes seem a bit off the trying to be all things to all men about him. However he has undoubtedly, again only imo, shifted left in his time as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

I'm not suggesting he would personally be the man for Labour but someone like with that ability to deliver genuinely helpful policy and act in a pragmatic but still principled manner. He was also the architect of a thwarted plan to provide social care on NHS terms and free at the point of use. That is verging on radical nowadays.

Someone desperately trying to appeal to his opponents with a view to gaining power at any cost is always going to come across as transparent and untrustworthy. That might not be an issue when you are trying to appeal to Tories but it's a recipe for defeat when you wilfully alienate core Labour voters. It's why Starmer will almost certainly never be PM.

[Ozyhibby]

It's amazing that in Greater Manchester Andy Burnham is re-regulating the transport infrastructure so that it is integrated, fares are capped and timetables and the like are brought back under public control and it barely merits a mention in the mainstream news. By modern standards it's a pretty radical move and it will at a stroke remove rip off fares of up to £4 for a single journey.

It's not radically left wing, it's just a common sense policy that will actually help ordinary people. I was always ambivalent to Burnham. He was painted as the Blairite candidate, somewhat unfairly imo, when he stood for leader and there does sometimes seem a bit off the trying to be all things to all men about him. However he has undoubtedly, again only imo, shifted left in his time as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

I'm not suggesting he would personally be the man for Labour but someone like with that ability to deliver genuinely helpful policy and act in a pragmatic but still principled manner. He was also the architect of a thwarted plan to provide social care on NHS terms and free at the point of use. That is verging on radical nowadays.

Someone desperately trying to appeal to his opponents with a view to gaining power at any cost is always going to come across as transparent and untrustworthy. That might not be an issue when you are trying to appeal to Tories but it's a recipe for defeat when you wilfully alienate core Labour voters. It's why Starmer will almost certainly never be PM.

Didn’t Burnham ‘lend’ Corbyn the votes so that he could run for Labour leader in 2015? If so, he also has a dodgy political antenna.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

Didn’t Burnham ‘lend’ Corbyn the votes so that he could run for Labour leader in 2015? If so, he also has a dodgy political antenna.




How so?

[Just_Jimmy]

@RedfieldWilton
·
Truss leads Starmer for the first time.

First time since March that a Conservative leads Starmer.

At this moment, which of the following individuals do voters think would be the better PM for the United Kingdom? (31 July)

Truss 37% (+4)
Starmer 36% (+2)That is ****ing unbelievable.

It's the lunatics running the asylum. It's the only explanation left. It's a massive social experiment and at some point someone is going to turn the lights on and say let's review what you all did...

I cannot and never will understand or comprehend how anyone, anywhere looks at Boris Johnson and now Liz ****ing Truss and thinks they are fit to be prime minister.

I've no doubt she'll win... and win an election but the games bust. Its beyond saving and the country is ****ed.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Just_Jimmy]

It's amazing that in Greater Manchester Andy Burnham is re-regulating the transport infrastructure so that it is integrated, fares are capped and timetables and the like are brought back under public control and it barely merits a mention in the mainstream news. By modern standards it's a pretty radical move and it will at a stroke remove rip off fares of up to £4 for a single journey.

It's not radically left wing, it's just a common sense policy that will actually help ordinary people. I was always ambivalent to Burnham. He was painted as the Blairite candidate, somewhat unfairly imo, when he stood for leader and there does sometimes seem a bit off the trying to be all things to all men about him. However he has undoubtedly, again only imo, shifted left in his time as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

I'm not suggesting he would personally be the man for Labour but someone like with that ability to deliver genuinely helpful policy and act in a pragmatic but still principled manner. He was also the architect of a thwarted plan to provide social care on NHS terms and free at the point of use. That is verging on radical nowadays.

Someone desperately trying to appeal to his opponents with a view to gaining power at any cost is always going to come across as transparent and untrustworthy. That might not be an issue when you are trying to appeal to Tories but it's a recipe for defeat when you wilfully alienate core Labour voters. It's why Starmer will almost certainly never be PM.I voted for him to be mayor both terms. Mainly because I hoped it would give him a platform in the way Boris used his time as London mayor.

So far he's promised loads and delivered little. However, he's fighting against a central government that will not engage at any level.

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[Smartie]

That is ****ing unbelievable.

It's the lunatics running the asylum. It's the only explanation left. It's a massive social experiment and at some point someone is going to turn the lights on and say let's review what you all did...

I cannot and never will understand or comprehend how anyone, anywhere looks at Boris Johnson and now Liz ****ing Truss and thinks they are fit to be prime minister.

I've no doubt she'll win... and win an election but the games bust. Its beyond saving and the country is ****ed.

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Truss and Starmer are a truly abominable pair of potential PMs.

The difference between them that I can see is that Truss is busy playing to her crowd, whereas Starmer is busy abandoning his.

I'd take some convincing that there isn't a very sizeable homeless majority stuck somewhere wondering what on Earth they are to do about it.

[Pretty Boy]

Truss and Starmer are a truly abominable pair of potential PMs.

The difference between them that I can see is that Truss is busy playing to her crowd, whereas Starmer is busy abandoning his.

I'd take some convincing that there isn't a very sizeable homeless majority stuck somewhere wondering what on Earth they are to do about it.

I think in Scotland many in that homeless group have found their way to the SNP.

The SNP aren't by any stretch left wing, even centre left is pushing it. However they do have something resembling a social conscience on various issues and more than that their ability to appeal to and mobilise both their core and 'borrowed' vote means they are an election winning machine.

There is also the hope for many currently voting for them that they are a means to an end. I voted for the SNP several times but had to hold my nose to do so. I certainly don't support their prescription to the same economic consensus that is failing across the world and their failings on council tax and land reform leave me cold. And it wasn't because I strongly support independence, it was because I hoped (evidently forlornly) that it might boot Labour up the arse in Scotland or a by product of independence would be a new democratic socialist party that had vibes of Scandinavia about it. I think deep down I always believed the UK would come to it's senses and realise this dangerous lurch right was economic and social madness but increasingly it seems that isn't going to happen and indeed we are told Labour has to go fully centre right to compete now. Some might be comforatble with that but I'm not. At least you know where you stand with a full fat Tory. After not voting for the last couple of elections as my own personal expression of dissatisfaction with all the major parties I now feel obliged to vote SNP again. I still don't support them, I'm still lukewarm to independence but I just don't see any other alternative. With the UK the political landscape is a known and I don't like it, in iScotland it's a risk and an unknown; it could be a comparable **** show but there is always the hope, perhaps misplaced, that something better could spring up.

[hibsbollah]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/02/voting-intention-con-34-lab-35-27-28-july

Really worrying. It’s almost like this 6 weeks of extreme right wing Tory cock measuring is exactly what the U.K. electorate want. Just a 1 point labour lead now.

[bigwheel]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/02/voting-intention-con-34-lab-35-27-28-july

Really worrying. It’s almost like this 6 weeks of extreme right wing Tory cock measuring is exactly what the U.K. electorate want. Just a 1 point labour lead now.

It’s depressing that . I’d suggest it says as much about the ineffectiveness of Labour as an opposition as it does about the the electorate…

[neil7908]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/02/voting-intention-con-34-lab-35-27-28-july

Really worrying. It’s almost like this 6 weeks of extreme right wing Tory cock measuring is exactly what the U.K. electorate want. Just a 1 point labour lead now.

I'm waiting for the onslaught that Corbyn received when he was facing 'the worst Government in memory' and not deemed to be far enough ahead in the polls.

There can be no doubt Starmer has been given a fairly easy ride and for Labour to be in this position now, after 12 years of Tory rule and all that has come with it is an absolute disgrace.

[OldEast]

It’s depressing that . I’d suggest it says as much about the ineffectiveness of Labour as an opposition as it does about the the electorate…

They could sweep the liberals back to at least a coalition government as an alternative to voting tory but no, plenty are perfectly happy with the tories. Labour is losing it's grip in England because the electorate is now more right wing than ever, thanks to gullibility and the media but that's another topic.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm waiting for the onslaught that Corbyn received when he was facing 'the worst Government in memory' and not deemed to be far enough ahead in the polls.

There can be no doubt Starmer has been given a fairly easy ride and for Labour to be in this position now, after 12 years of Tory rule and all that has come with it is an absolute disgrace.

If Corbyn had won we would have left the Ukrainians high and dry. That alone shows he was unfit for office.


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[hibsbollah]

If Corbyn had won we would have left the Ukrainians high and dry. That alone shows he was unfit for office.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rubbish. Are you aware we don’t have a presidential system? If a Corbyn administration were in the current scenario we would have fulfilled our NATO commitments as part of normal cabinet collective responsibility. The Defence and Foreign Secretaries would have been playing a lead role. The main thing is we would have paid the nurses, had a second Brexit referendum by now and taxed the oligarchs.

[Berwickhibby]

Rubbish. Are you aware we don’t have a presidential system? If a Corbyn administration were in the current scenario we would have fulfilled our NATO commitments as part of normal cabinet collective responsibility. The Defence and Foreign Secretaries would have been playing a lead role. The main thing is we would have paid the nurses, had a second Brexit referendum by now and taxed the oligarchs.

Hold on to your hat …. I could not agree with you more

[Ozyhibby]

Rubbish. Are you aware we don’t have a presidential system? If a Corbyn administration were in the current scenario we would have fulfilled our NATO commitments as part of normal cabinet collective responsibility. The Defence and Foreign Secretaries would have been playing a lead role. The main thing is we would have paid the nurses, had a second Brexit referendum by now and taxed the oligarchs.

Even if you are correct, England would never vote for that. It’s a fairytale. They are not even interested in Starmer’s Tory-lite.


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[Pretty Boy]

Even if you are correct, England would never vote for that. It’s a fairytale. They are not even interested in Starmer’s Tory-lite.


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Almost 13 million people did vote for it in 2017. The vast majority of them in England.

Starmer, Brown, Miliband and post 2001 Blair could only dream of those numbers. With the exception of Starmer they all had Scotland onside as well.

[Ozyhibby]

Almost 13 million people did vote for it in 2017. The vast majority of them in England.

Starmer, Brown, Miliband and post 2001 Blair could only dream of those numbers. With the exception of Starmer they all had Scotland onside as well.

That’s no good if the other side has a larger number.
It looks like Corbyn got out the vote for both sides.

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[Pretty Boy]

That’s no good if the other side has a larger number.
It looks like Corbyn got out the vote for both sides.

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So what's the alternative? Abandon any sense of principle and alienate your own core vote so that Mr & Mrs Centrist either stay at home or vote for you because they 'fancy a change'?

It seems even that ludicrous position is failing Starmer.

[Ozyhibby]

So what's the alternative? Abandon any sense of principle and alienate your own core vote so that Mr & Mrs Centrist either stay at home or vote for you because they 'fancy a change'?

It seems even that ludicrous position is failing Starmer.

I’m not saying Starmer is right either. He doesn’t really have a position on anything. He hasn’t explained to anyone why they should vote for Labour. On every position he just seems to say the Tories are terrible, we’ll do the same.
I’m saying you can have a centre left policy position that is not as extreme as Corbyn but also is clear in what it will do for ordinary people in the UK.


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[hibsbollah]

Hold on to your hat …. I could not agree with you more

I always liked you :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

So what's the alternative? Abandon any sense of principle and alienate your own core vote so that Mr & Mrs Centrist either stay at home or vote for you because they 'fancy a change'?

It seems even that ludicrous position is failing Starmer.

It might not be that ludicrous. After two years of a Truss PMship following three years of Johnson's, there might be large numbers of people content to vote for simply an adult - any adult, irrespective of whether he/she has particularly deeply held political beliefs.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-mp-code-of-conduct-breach-b2138481.html

Not very good from a former head of cps

[Kato]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-mp-code-of-conduct-breach-b2138481.html

Not very good from a former head of cpsTypical Tory.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Typical Tory.

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😆 👏

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220811/2541f9d4368052ff1405c79c282d64e5.png
Am I missing something?


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220811/2541f9d4368052ff1405c79c282d64e5.png
Am I missing something?


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Place of birth according to Wikipedia.

[Ozyhibby]

Place of birth according to Wikipedia.

Ah ok, not a place many people associate him with.


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[grunt]

Place of birth according to Wikipedia.


Ah ok, not a place many people associate him with.
Interesting little detail, isn't it? A sign that someone has written an article based on online research rather than from actually knowing the man.

[He's here!]

Labour retakes North Lanarkshire Council as SNP councillor defects:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62504528

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour retakes North Lanarkshire Council as SNP councillor defects:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62504528

Defects??

[He's here!]

Defects??

So it says.

[DaveF]

Defects??

Yep. Elected in May on an SNP ticket and jumped to Labour just before the vote.

[He's here!]

As Starmer holidays Gordon Brown assumes role of leader of the Opposition:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/11/starmer-holidays-gordon-brown-assumes-role-leader-opposition/

[Berwickhibby]

Yep. Elected in May on an SNP ticket and jumped to Labour just before the vote.

But it highlights another SNP sex pest having to resign 🙄

[ronaldo7]

Labour retakes North Lanarkshire Council as SNP councillor defects:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62504528

British unionist party vote in Labour provost. 🍊

[Ozyhibby]

Is Sarwar doing a joint show at festival today with Douglas Ross?


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[DaveF]

Is Sarwar doing a joint show at festival today with Douglas Ross?


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Yep, the chuckle brothers were on at 1pm today. True brothers in arms.

[Paul1642]

As Starmer holidays Gordon Brown assumes role of leader of the Opposition:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/11/starmer-holidays-gordon-brown-assumes-role-leader-opposition/

I didn’t realise he was even still in politics. He I’m has talked more sense and shown more backbone in the last few days than Starmer has in his whole time as leader, but it can’t easily forget the role he played in creating a might mess that has put the Tory’s in power ever since.

Is there no one younger and more relevant able to take charge?

[grunt]

Is there no one younger and more relevant able to take charge?

Angela Rayner?

[OldEast]

Angela Rayner?

Great legs

[GlesgaeHibby]

I didn’t realise he was even still in politics. He I’m has talked more sense and shown more backbone in the last few days than Starmer has in his whole time as leader, but it can’t easily forget the role he played in creating a might mess that has put the Tory’s in power ever since.

Is there no one younger and more relevant able to take charge?

It was Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems that put the tories in power, not Gordon Brown and Labour.

[Jack]

It was Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems that put the tories in power, not Gordon Brown and Labour.

It's always someone else's fault Labour aren't/didn't get in power.

Nothing to do with Labour being crap at the time and being unable persuade enough of the electorate to vote for them.

[Paul1642]

It was Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems that put the tories in power, not Gordon Brown and Labour.

It was labour who made themselves unelectable for at least a generation. The Tory’s have managed to comfortably stay in power for years whilst being generally pretty dire. If labour hadn’t made such a momentous mess of their last term in government and been a laughing stock of an opposition they would have been back in power years ago.

[cabbageandribs1875]

:)

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/298806599_468750868593463_4867874960975396642_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=cXUVr0LWiHgAX9u6BGW&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-AI0wbjg2IwFm085tWKyEhPspSSh0qhmD8bPWMVS3IRg&oe=62FDC947

[Smartie]

I didn’t realise he was even still in politics. He I’m has talked more sense and shown more backbone in the last few days than Starmer has in his whole time as leader, but it can’t easily forget the role he played in creating a might mess that has put the Tory’s in power ever since.

Is there no one younger and more relevant able to take charge?

I’m no apologist for Gordon Brown but I’d take issue with the suggestion that he created the mess that put the Tories in power.

There was a world banking crisis, a huge recession and it was easy for the Tories to pin the fact that folk were feeling a bit poorer on him and Labour.

My main issue with the Blair /Brown era was the Iraq war and all that surrounded it, but that’s another story for another day.

I wasn’t a huge fan of them at the time (and I’m still not) but compared to the likes of Truss, Sunak and Johnson I yearn for the competence of Campbell, Blair and Brown and find that when I hear them speak these days I find they put the current lot to shame.

It’s sad that Brown chooses to focus his energies on fighting against independence.

[Ozyhibby]

It was labour who made themselves unelectable for at least a generation. The Tory’s have managed to comfortably stay in power for years whilst being generally pretty dire. If labour hadn’t made such a momentous mess of their last term in government and been a laughing stock of an opposition they would have been back in power years ago.

Decision to invade Iraq not only damaged the Labour Party but also is at the root of all the trouble we are having around the world just now.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Decision to invade Iraq not only damaged the Labour Party but also is at the root of all the trouble we are having around the world just now.


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Sadly and paradoxically, the tories could send troops into any country in the world and they'd gain votes.

[He's here!]

I’m no apologist for Gordon Brown but I’d take issue with the suggestion that he created the mess that put the Tories in power.

There was a world banking crisis, a huge recession and it was easy for the Tories to pin the fact that folk were feeling a bit poorer on him and Labour.

My main issue with the Blair /Brown era was the Iraq war and all that surrounded it, but that’s another story for another day.

I wasn’t a huge fan of them at the time (and I’m still not) but compared to the likes of Truss, Sunak and Johnson I yearn for the competence of Campbell, Blair and Brown and find that when I hear them speak these days I find they put the current lot to shame.

It’s sad that Brown chooses to focus his energies on fighting against independence.

Brown was a first-rate chancellor. Think I'm right in saying that in his 10 years at No 11 the UK did not have a single quarter of negative growth.

[hibsbollah]

Brownt was a first-rate chancellor. Think I'm right in saying that in his 10 years at No 11 the UK did not have a single quarter of negative growth.

I have no quarrel with the argument that he did a good job. But states are at the mercy of markets, and all politicians are the recipients of either good luck or bad luck in that respect. The UK economy grew then because the conditions were right and it crashed because the conditions were right for that too.

[Just Alf]

I’m no apologist for Gordon Brown but I’d take issue with the suggestion that he created the mess that put the Tories in power.

There was a world banking crisis, a huge recession and it was easy for the Tories to pin the fact that folk were feeling a bit poorer on him and Labour.

My main issue with the Blair /Brown era was the Iraq war and all that surrounded it, but that’s another story for another day.

I wasn’t a huge fan of them at the time (and I’m still not) but compared to the likes of Truss, Sunak and Johnson I yearn for the competence of Campbell, Blair and Brown and find that when I hear them speak these days I find they put the current lot to shame.

It’s sad that Brown chooses to focus his energies on fighting against independence.
Brown was a first-rate chancellor. Think I'm right in saying that in his 10 years at No 11 the UK did not have a single quarter of negative growth.
I have no quarrel with the argument that he did a good job. But states are at the mercy of markets, and all politicians are the recipients of either good luck or bad luck in that respect. The UK economy grew then because the conditions were right and it crashed because the conditions were right for that too.Pretty much agree with all.of the above.

I can easily imagine Brown as a Labour first minister in an independent Scotland at some point.

[Ozyhibby]

Brown was a first-rate chancellor. Think I'm right in saying that in his 10 years at No 11 the UK did not have a single quarter of negative growth.

Did a fine job on bank regulation.[emoji106] [emoji849]


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[He's here!]

I have no quarrel with the argument that he did a good job. But states are at the mercy of markets, and all politicians are the recipients of either good luck or bad luck in that respect. The UK economy grew then because the conditions were right and it crashed because the conditions were right for that too.

Yep and things did go awry for him after he moved into No 10 for the reasons you mention. The UK economy would have taken a hit at that time no matter who was in government tho. No question some of the current problems we face can be traced back to his time in office but by and large he was a more talented operator than most whose dedication to the role was without question. He rarely, if ever, took a proper holiday.

[He's here!]

Pretty much agree with all.of the above.

I can easily imagine Brown as a Labour first minister in an independent Scotland at some point.

Too old now but he's still head and shoulders above any UK political leader these days.

[Just Alf]

Too old now but he's still head and shoulders above any UK political leader these days.I might have a slight disagreement regarding a certain First Minister :greengrin but on the whole, I tend to agree

[Ozyhibby]

Too old now but he's still head and shoulders above any UK political leader these days.

He’s already been rejected by England so no point dreaming of him coming back. If they don’t like him then it can’t happen.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

this man would will be turning in his grave at the thought of this 'scottish' political group, the Conservative & Labour unionist we're one and the same amalgamation party


Keir Hardie, born on this day, 15th of August 1856 in Newhouse, Lanarkshire, was the Scot who broke the mould of British politics.

“It is essential to the well-being of the wage earner that he, in his corporate capacity as a citizen, should own and control the sources of the supply from which he draws food, raiment, fuel and shelter.”

He’s no doubt birling in his grave at the state of Labour today and the red Tory in charge.


borrowed from fb




https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/299731507_469348365200380_726915529885466524_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=uhg6ZJnLMRcAX_y81jz&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT89ffeT8LQwI0_ZtSif93i4Fi_uXkjbhJsbv7D2o28S ZQ&oe=62FEEF44

[ronaldo7]

Slow and steady Starmer steering a course to...

Labour lost nearly 100,000 members in 2021 and ended the year with a £5 million financial deficit, the party's newly-published accounts show.

A mass exodus of supporters saw the party's membership – which stood at 523,332 at the end of 2020 – fall to 432,213 by the close of 2021.

[Keith_M]

Slow and steady Starmer steering a course to...

Labour lost nearly 100,000 members in 2021 and ended the year with a £5 million financial deficit, the party's newly-published accounts show.

A mass exodus of supporters saw the party's membership – which stood at 523,332 at the end of 2020 – fall to 432,213 by the close of 2021.


Can't be certain, obviously, but wouldn't be surprised if a large number of those now leaving were Corbynistas that joined the party en-masse (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/explaining-the-pro-corbyn-surge-in-labours-membership/) around 2015/16

[ronaldo7]

Can't be certain, obviously, but wouldn't be surprised if a large number of those now leaving were Corbynistas that joined the party en-masse (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/explaining-the-pro-corbyn-surge-in-labours-membership/) around 2015/16

I'd think that's a fair assessment, although given one of the more prominent Labour guys on here has said he's left the party, it could be a bit of both.

[Andy Bee]

I'd think that's a fair assessment, although given one of the more prominent Labour guys on here has said he's left the party, it could be a bit of both.

I'd wager there's a lot of Labour affiliated TU members have cancelled their Labour subs as well, I know I did because of the lack of TU support.

[Keith_M]

I'd wager there's a lot of Labour affiliated TU members have cancelled their Labour subs as well, I know I did because of the lack of TU support.


Yeah, I'd imagine there's a few done similar, in light of recent events.

[hibsbollah]

Yeah, I'd imagine there's a few done similar, in light of recent events.

I cancelled my membership without fanfare a while back when I realised what was going on nationally. I got an email today from my local group saying they are shortly going to vote on whether the local MP is to be re-selected or if there's going to be an open contest to be voted on by Labour Party members. And if I rejoin by next week I get to vote. Im swaying, just because it would be funny to pay £4 for a month, rejoin, vote against him to continue and cancel my membership again.

Maybe i've got too much time on my hands.

[stokesmessiah]

I do think that Mick Lynch might take the plunge into politics, this enough is enough movement seems to be gaining some traction.

Wonder if something like that did happen, will it do to the Labour Party what UKIP done to the Tory’s.

[Stairway 2 7]

Good thread summarising the first enough is enough rally. Good words by Mike lynch, I'd doubt sir Starmer was in attendance

https://mobile.twitter.com/chakrabortty/status/1559994162010800130

[hibsbollah]

London strikes: Sadiq Khan accuses government of ‘deliberately provoking’ unions – business live (theguardian.com) (https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/aug/19/london-transport-tfl-tube-bus-rail-strike-uk-retail-sales-rise-ftse-100-business-live)

Sadiq Khan ups the ante here; again like Andy Burnham hes going in way harder than the Labour leadership.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/17/profiteering-bosses-workers-inflation-unite-sharon-graham-labour

Unite’s leader, Sharon Graham, is leading the charge against 21st-century corporations. Why isn’t Labour following suit?

[Ozyhibby]

https://ianssmart.blogspot.com/2022/08/we-need-to-talk-about-scots.html?m=1

Labour blogger.[emoji849]


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[degenerated]

https://ianssmart.blogspot.com/2022/08/we-need-to-talk-about-scots.html?m=1

Labour blogger.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think he's from the Oswald Mosley wing of the Labour party. 26139

[Kato]

I think he's from the Oswald Mosley wing of the Labour party. 26139There are some strange people about.

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[superfurryhibby]

Can't be certain, obviously, but wouldn't be surprised if a large number of those now leaving were Corbynistas that joined the party en-masse (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/explaining-the-pro-corbyn-surge-in-labours-membership/) around 2015/16

There was a fantastic grass roots campaign to attract members and it worked. The Starmer regime has alienated many Socialists from the party that once had a Socialist agenda. No wonder, Starmer and his cronies are rotten to the core.

[ronaldo7]

Remember, Anas telling us they don't do deals with Tories...Conservative Cllr Bob Burgess - Wishaw voted in by roll call of Labour Councillors name by name, one by one across NLC

[He's here!]

Eddie Izzard hoping to become a Labour MP:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-62687966

[hibsbollah]

Labour vs Full Fact, who’s right?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/26/labour-energy-price-cap-freeze-is-5bn-off-target-says-full-fact

[Stairway 2 7]

Hugh Grant the latest kiddy on lefty to criticise antisemitism in the Labour left, tit
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/hugh-grant-backs-chief-rabbi-mirvis-criticises-jeremy-corbyn-609671

Joins James OBrien who accused them of Holocaust denial disgustingly.
https://mobile.twitter.com/simonmaginn/status/1563824911369502722

Also said he couldn't chose between Corbyn and boris, then spends the next years like Grant slamming boris rightly. OBrien is like most guardian writers they rightly attack the tories, but when a real chance of change like Corbyn comes then they don't want to know. What would our energy bills be now if Corbyn had won

[hibsbollah]

Hugh Grant the latest kiddy on lefty to criticise antisemitism in the Labour left, tit
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/hugh-grant-backs-chief-rabbi-mirvis-criticises-jeremy-corbyn-609671

Joins James OBrien who accused them of Holocaust denial disgustingly.
https://mobile.twitter.com/simonmaginn/status/1563824911369502722

Also said he couldn't chose between Corbyn and boris, then spends the next years like Grant slamming boris rightly. OBrien is like most guardian writers they rightly attack the tories, but when a real chance of change like Corbyn comes then they don't want to know. What would our energy bills be now if Corbyn had won

He was out campaigning with Luciana Berger, who left Labour to join Change UK and then the Lib Dems, so it’s not a surprise that he would say that to a rabidly pro-apartheid Israeli regime paper like the JP. What is weird is that this kind of political disloyalty is apparently tolerated by Labour Central Office in right wing Labour MPs, but there is always a furious reaction if there’s any talk of cooperation with the Greens or radical leftists, who of course must be killed off completely.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeAylett/status/1562882276723400705

@GeorgeAylett
In August 2022 the TUC demanded a £15 minimum wage ‘as soon as possible’.

In response, Keir Starmer said that he supported a £10 minimum wage. Even the Conservatives have outflanked him by demanding a £10.50 minimum wage.

Starmer is useless

[grunt]

Is the Labour Party getting ready for an election?

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1565006498295578625?s=20&t=_-vTR2SKFc6n5UwqBUmY0w

[hibsbollah]

Is the Labour Party getting ready for an election?

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1565006498295578625?s=20&t=_-vTR2SKFc6n5UwqBUmY0w

There’s been ten months now of a sustained Labour voting intention lead, now up to 10 points according to politico. Despite Starmers poor ratings the Tiries look incapable of recovering their popularity.

[Stairway 2 7]

PeoplePolling
·
1h
NEW: Westminster Voting Intention poll (30 Aug):

🔴 LAB: 42% (+2 from 22 Aug)
🔵 CON: 25% (-1)
🟠 LDM: 10% (-1)
🟢 GRN: 7% (+1)
🟡 SNP: 5% (-1)

All changes are within the margin of error. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W35_full.pdf

[hibsbollah]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/03/time-get-behind-working-people-fix-national-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR14ubW6ial1f6j4m3d_7EBKvnJ0cbLnmhvR1iO9 yX39X1wxRTacuG0PhGU

Starmer in the Telegraph today, ‘I would provide a functioning NHS’.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/03/time-get-behind-working-people-fix-national-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR14ubW6ial1f6j4m3d_7EBKvnJ0cbLnmhvR1iO9 yX39X1wxRTacuG0PhGU

Starmer in the Telegraph today, ‘I would provide a functioning NHS’.

"It's time to get behind workers", well unless they are on a picket line.

[hibsbollah]

Most right wing cabinet in history installed in an undemocratic transfer of power. Starmers last statement was 3 days ago in an op Ed in the daily telegraph, apart from a tweet that he was visiting a primary school in Barnet.

Where is he?

[Ozyhibby]

Most right wing cabinet in history installed in an undemocratic transfer of power. Starmers last statement was 3 days ago in an op Ed in the daily telegraph, apart from a tweet that he was visiting a primary school in Barnet.

Where is he?

He’s a lazy leader.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Most right wing cabinet in history installed in an undemocratic transfer of power. Starmers last statement was 3 days ago in an op Ed in the daily telegraph, apart from a tweet that he was visiting a primary school in Barnet.

Where is he?

Right now, opposite the latest tory pm at PMQS.

[hibsbollah]

Right now, opposite the latest tory pm at PMQS.

Yes , Ohhhkay:greengrin Where HAS he been then?

Im watching it.

[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/national-anthem-to-be-sung-at-labour-conference-for-first-time-in-years-12701663

Do they usually open with Jerusalem and the Red Flag or does that come at the end?

[lucky]

https://news.sky.com/story/national-anthem-to-be-sung-at-labour-conference-for-first-time-in-years-12701663

Do they usually open with Jerusalem and the Red Flag or does that come at the end?

Red Flag at the end of the conference, there has never been anything sung at the start of the conference.

[degenerated]

Some interesting reading here

https://www.ajiunit.com/article/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party/

[He's here!]

Red Flag at the end of the conference, there has never been anything sung at the start of the conference.

Jerusalem definitely gets sung but think that's usually at the end as well.

Comrade Corbyn unhappy at the national anthem being sung today:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/sep/25/singing-of-national-anthem-at-labour-party-conference-very-odd-says-jeremy-corbyn-video

[Stairway 2 7]

Some interesting reading here

https://www.ajiunit.com/article/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party/

Brutal but expected. The establishment would never allow Corbyn to disrupt the gravy train. Do these people think we have it better now than if they had backed Corbyn. I see the upper echelons of tories and Labour as the old firm boardroom, outwardly hating each other but in reality making deals

That's why I despise people like Alistair Campbell, James OBrien and mandelson piping up the last 3 years making a living criticising (rightly) the tories. James OBrien said he'd rather abstain in the general election than vote Corbyn, then makes millions complaining about the tory government that came in, tit.

[Stairway 2 7]

Jerusalem definitely gets sung but think that's usually at the end as well.

Comrade Corbyn unhappy at the national anthem being sung today:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/sep/25/singing-of-national-anthem-at-labour-party-conference-very-odd-says-jeremy-corbyn-video

It's boak inducing. Surprised labour don't change their red flag to a union jack nowadays, Starmer has UJ undies I heard

[Moulin Yarns]

It's boak inducing. Surprised labour don't change their red flag to a union jack nowadays, Starmer has UJ undies I heard

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1573984987157782528?s=19

UJ you say? 🤔

[hibsbollah]

It used to be the Labour orthodoxy that there are a range of different views and complex baggage with the monarchy, empire and militarism, and if you want a broad church you don’t impose these things on people. Are republicans welcome in the Labour Party? I have no idea anymore. Corbyn is absolutely right, it’s odd. Should we sing GSTK when entering government buildings? At premier league games? At school? Why at the party conference?

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1573984987157782528?s=19

UJ you say? 🤔

God I hadn't seen that when posting. That's embarrassing

[He's here!]

It's boak inducing. Surprised labour don't change their red flag to a union jack nowadays, Starmer has UJ undies I heard

Is this a permanent move though? As Lisa Nandy says it seems reasonable to open the event with a tribute to someone who devoted 70 years to public service. Is that really 'odd' or out of step with the current national sentiment? It doesnt appear clear tho if the anthem will now become an annual fixture.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is this a permanent move though? As Lisa Nandy says it seems reasonable to open the event with a tribute to someone who devoted 70 years to public service. Is that really 'odd' or out of step with the current national sentiment? It doesnt appear clear tho if the anthem will now become an annual fixture.

A statement would have been fine, singing God save the king for Charlie weeks later is to show how British and Royal the Labour party is