The future of the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

With labour on less seats than SNP the only way they can lead an administration is if they have support from other councillors outwith their party, otherwise the SNP could just do it as the biggest party?

Correct, and there is no way they have the votes without the Tories. This is a Better Together council.


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[Moulin Yarns]

SNP and Labour co-leaders have been appointed to run Dumfries and Galloway Council

https://t.co/5fmdkw2Db9

No coalitions Sarwar???

Maybe the Northern Ireland assembly could learn from their near neighbours. DUP?? 🤔

[ronaldo7]

Neil Findlay, ex labour MSP.

"I am appalled to see West Lothian Labour councillors voting Tories into office - the tory party is the enemy of my class. They inflicted decades of pain on my community leaving a legacy of unemployment, ill health, and poverty. It is shameful that they have been voted in by labour".

I wonder when the penny will drop with Neil.

#youyesyet

[degenerated]

Apparently it is a minority Labour administration in West Lothian, not a LabCon partnership

https://twitter.com/camiglasgowsgp/status/1529031758796177409?s=21&t=a5Gl72je8d9DR0oIY0X2sw



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/61566985f80ad5d61348f2ce8ef0db5e.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSure it is. That's why the deputy provost is a Tory and other Tories have been given executive councillor roles.

[ronaldo7]

Sure it is. That's why the deputy provost is a Tory and other Tories have been given executive councillor roles.

No deals Sarwar will be pleased though.

[degenerated]

No deals Sarwar will be pleased though.Looks like Edinburgh is going the same way.

[ronaldo7]

Looks like Edinburgh is going the same way.

He's wanting a coalition on cosla to put pressure on the SG. Nothing wrong with doing that, but he'll have to own the deals, or admit he's lost control of his party.

[degenerated]

He's wanting a coalition on cosla to put pressure on the SG. Nothing wrong with doing that, but he'll have to own the deals, or admit he's lost control of his party.I don't think he's lost control, I doubt he was ever against joining up with the Tories and lib Dems. They would do it Scottish parliament too if they numbers stacked up.

[SHODAN]

Thing is one day they're going to try and do it at a national level, and given how Labour's core up here is mostly now older centrist pro-union types I don't think there'd be much of a protest.

We better hope and pray the Greens win enough seats to push things over the line next election or we'll be looking at Deputy First Minister Ross.

[ronaldo7]

I don't think he's lost control, I doubt he was ever against joining up with the Tories and lib Dems. They would do it Scottish parliament too if they numbers stacked up.

And the labour affiliated unions. I suppose they just step into line and take their orders from the Tories.

Interesting times ahead.

[hibsbollah]

And the labour affiliated unions. I suppose they just step into line and take their orders from the Tories.

.

Absolutely no chance.

[The_Exile]

We better hope and pray the Greens win enough seats to push things over the line next election or we'll be looking at Deputy First Minister Ross.

This is where we need a concerted push to get young people into voting booths. We (under 40's) by far and away outnumber the older voters now but there's just not the turnout there to confidently say things will change. We desperately need a significant jump in the turnout from younger voters, otherwise it'll be the status quo for a long time yet.

[Smartie]

Is there any point in us having the party system we have over what they have in Northern Ireland, where they seem to have only nationalist and unionist parties of varying levels of bampotness?

[ronaldo7]

Absolutely no chance.

😂😂😂

[SHODAN]

This is where we need a concerted push to get young people into voting booths. We (under 40's) by far and away outnumber the older voters now but there's just not the turnout there to confidently say things will change. We desperately need a significant jump in the turnout from younger voters, otherwise it'll be the status quo for a long time yet.

Tories and partly Labour know they've lost young voters so the primary strategy is to discourage or make it harder to vote (hence ID and manual registration etc).

Electronic voting via app should be an option in elections in addition to in-person and snail mail. I don't buy this crap about it being not secure because if it wasn't we wouldn't do all our banking via app.

[ronaldo7]

Richard Leonard was the Leader of British Labour in Scotland. You'd think when he was asking us to promote him to the post of FM, he'd at least understand how Government works.

https://twitter.com/GrahamP58/status/1530532183504523264

[Stairway 2 7]

Pippa Crerar
@PippaCrerar
·
NEW: Labour sources have confirmed that Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner have now received questionnaires from Durham Constabulary

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-council-urged-by-labour-msp-mercedes-villalba-to-reverse-ban-on-strip-clubs-3725921

I think Mercedes villalba could be one of Scotlands better politicians, socialist and doing good work fighting high rents. Anyway hope she wins here in this stupid decision to close strippers and put 100 women out of work and underground

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-council-urged-by-labour-msp-mercedes-villalba-to-reverse-ban-on-strip-clubs-3725921

I think Mercedes villalba could be one of Scotlands better politicians, socialist and doing good work fighting high rents. Anyway hope she wins here in this stupid decision to close strippers and put 100 women out of work and underground

She's brilliant.

I've been following her on social media for a while and watched her speak in parliament a few times.

Bright, witty, principled and uses her questions wisely. Labour in Scotland need more like her in positions of prominence.

[neil7908]

"Poll says Keir Starmer worse choice for PM than Boris Johnson"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/11/poll-says-keir-starmer-worse-choice-for-pm-than-boris-johnson

Can we finally admit Starmer is an uninspiring leader? Or are we still blaming Corbyn for all of Labour's problems, even Starmer's personal approval ratings?

[Ozyhibby]

"Poll says Keir Starmer worse choice for PM than Boris Johnson"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/11/poll-says-keir-starmer-worse-choice-for-pm-than-boris-johnson

Can we finally admit Starmer is an uninspiring leader? Or are we still blaming Corbyn for all of Labour's problems, even Starmer's personal approval ratings?

Two things can be true at the same time. Starmer is pretty useless but Corbyn would have been a disaster.


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[Santa Cruz]

Two things can be true at the same time. Starmer is pretty useless but Corbyn would have been a disaster.


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Have to agree.

[Paul1642]

Speaking someone with no party alignment, Starmer is the first labour leader in quite a long time I feel that I could vote for and would potentially make a good PM. Naturally the party’s nutters therefore feel the need to hit the self destruct button and slander him form within. If labour could find some unity they would have a very good chance at the next General Election.

[Ozyhibby]

Speaking someone with no party alignment, Starmer is the first labour leader in quite a long time I feel that I could vote for and would potentially make a good PM. Naturally the party’s nutters therefore feel the need to hit the self destruct button and slander him form within. If labour could find some unity they would have a very good chance at the next General Election.

That last sentence should be a Labour Party motto.


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[neil7908]

Speaking someone with no party alignment, Starmer is the first labour leader in quite a long time I feel that I could vote for and would potentially make a good PM. Naturally the party’s nutters therefore feel the need to hit the self destruct button and slander him form within. If labour could find some unity they would have a very good chance at the next General Election.

Sorry but this is exactly what I'm talking about. The general public think Boris Johnson is a better leader than Starmer. That isn't a internal party issue, it's not due to evil lefty Corbynites, this is the view of voters who have had over 2 years of exposure to him as leader.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sorry but this is exactly what I'm talking about. The general public think Boris Johnson is a better leader than Starmer. That isn't a internal party issue, it's not due to evil lefty Corbynites, this is the view of voters who have had over 2 years of exposure to him as leader.

Yep using conjecture saying well I'd vote for him is pointless. The fact that more people think boris would be a better leader is wild. He's as powerful as a wet farm. Why is he not ripping boris to pieces every day.

It's truly pathetic. He's the establishment choice as you can see by the easy time in the press. But labour are sleepwalking into blowing there biggest ever chance. With brexit and partygate, the next election should be a landslide for labour, it won't be

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.

[hibsbollah]

. Starmer is pretty useless but Corbyn would have been a disaster.


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He would have been ‘a disaster’ for those wanting a functioning health service, or homelessness, or a working train network. It depends who you are and where your priorities lie. For the sake of online discussion, it would also have been ‘a disaster’ for those who parrot the ‘left is unelectable in the U.K. line so there’s no point even trying line’. That argument would have been put to bed probably for a generation.

The truth about the Labour Party is Starmer pulled a con on the Labour Party membership, standing on a platform of Corbyns policies but with Tory hair and tie. Those policies have been abandoned one by one without any media comment. I think some of us could have stomached all this vacuous lack of morals if he was actually looking like winning and would deliver Boris to the incinerator of history.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.

The Tories will replace Johnson later this year as well so that by the time the election comes they will claim they are the party of change. And they will win.


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[hibsbollah]

Speaking someone with no party alignment, Starmer is the first labour leader in quite a long time I feel that I could vote for and would potentially make a good PM. Naturally the party’s nutters therefore feel the need to hit the self destruct button and slander him form within. If labour could find some unity they would have a very good chance at the next General Election.

The point is, even among the ‘could swing either way’ constituent you are in the minority, and unbelievably more people in the U.K. EVEN NOW, think Boris would be better than Starmer. It’s a joke.

When Corbyn was riding 8% poll leads over Johnson, we were told that was because of how awful the Tory Govt was , and Labour should really be rocking a 20% lead because of the historically terrible Tories. So why is Starmer not held to the same standard now? The answer is obvious, he’s a convenient idiot.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/george-osborne-labour-would-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-tories-if-jeremy-corbyn-wasnt-leader

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tony-blair-labour-should-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-conservatives

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.

That's just ridiculous national socialists ffs. Boris and Sunak are hated by the right for being financially left. I'd say they are financially centre right. The party as a whole are more populist than right. They would do anything to be in power.

Imagination is at record levels and has grown each of the last 5 years. Almost 20% of the workforce is now foreign born. The ********s that voted brexit didn't want this as especially since the increase is people of colour rather than European.

Starmer is to blame, he never attacks. All through covid he pretty much agreed with everything boris said and he's barely landed a punch about partygate, he should be livid like us.

Blackford is the opposition leader in Westminster. His videos get the hits online because he says what we feel. Snp would walk the uk election if they were a uk party

[Stairway 2 7]

The point is, even among the ‘could swing either way’ constituent you are in the minority, and unbelievably more people in the U.K. EVEN NOW, think Boris would be better than Starmer. It’s a joke.

When Corbyn was riding 8% poll leads over Johnson, we were told that was because of how awful the Tory Govt was , and Labour should really be rocking a 20% lead because of the historically terrible Tories. So why is Starmer not held to the same standard now? The answer is obvious, he’s a convenient idiot.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/george-osborne-labour-would-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-tories-if-jeremy-corbyn-wasnt-leader

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tony-blair-labour-should-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-conservatives

Totally agree. Corbyn had the full might of the media against him, whilst they quite like Starmer. Sleepwalking into a disaster by keeping Sir Starmer

[hibsbollah]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.

There are two Englands now. Quite well represented by the two by-elections coming up in a couple of weeks, Wakefield and Honiton. Each one contains a different type of betrayed Tory, the working class one who wanted less immigration more NHS cash and get his country back, and a middle class one who didn’t think he’d be getting sewage in the babbling brook, his European colleagues leaving education and health in droves and draconian Rwanda/right to protest curbs. There’s enough of these peed off Tory voters to give these by elections seats to Labour and the Lib Dems which will buy both toothless opposition leaders a bit more time.

[lapsedhibee]

Totally agree. Corbyn had the full might of the media against him, whilst they quite like Starmer.

Lol. The 'billionaire press' quite likes Starmer and wouldn't mind at all if Labour won the next general election.

Maybe Starmer keeps quieter than Corbyn so that the media have fewer opportunities to demonise him.

[Stairway 2 7]

Lol. The 'billionaire press' quite likes Starmer and wouldn't mind at all if Labour won the next general election.

Maybe Starmer keeps quieter than Corbyn so that the media have fewer opportunities to demonise him.

Your spot on although your not trying to be. The billionaire press are quite happy for it to swing between centre right labour and centre but more to the right tories. The sun et al backed Blair and they will back Starmer if they think he'll win. He's about as establishment as they come, especially since he's purged the left like a void lad. They want us to think we've a choice but we vote between two of their choosing.

Corbyn and Sturgeon give them the fear

[Hiber-nation]

Rachel Reeves on BBC just now. Has she ever answered a question in her life? Gets worse every time I see her.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.This certainly is how it feels just now, I don't think it has always been like that in living memory.

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[Just Alf]

Rachel Reeves on BBC just now. Has she ever answered a question in her life? Gets worse every time I see her.I was watching and thinking the exact same, really hacked me off :agree:
also I notice the Tories now seem to have to call the Good Friday agreement the "Belfast Good Friday agreement " every single time it's mentioned, even if that's 5 times in a sentence!

[lapsedhibee]

I notice the Tories now seem to have to call the Good Friday agreement the "Belfast Good Friday agreement " every single time it's mentioned, even if that's 5 times in a sentence!

It that just to try to enhance the unionist/nationalist divide in some way or is there another point to it?

[He's here!]

Sums him up:

'Settle for Starmer. You've had worse.'
Starmer could do better | Robert Hutton | The Critic Magazine (https://thecritic.co.uk/starmer-could-do-better/)

[Hibrandenburg]

That's just ridiculous national socialists ffs. Boris and Sunak are hated by the right for being financially left. I'd say they are financially centre right. The party as a whole are more populist than right. They would do anything to be in power.

Imagination is at record levels and has grown each of the last 5 years. Almost 20% of the workforce is now foreign born. The ********s that voted brexit didn't want this as especially since the increase is people of colour rather than European.

Starmer is to blame, he never attacks. All through covid he pretty much agreed with everything boris said and he's barely landed a punch about partygate, he should be livid like us.

Blackford is the opposition leader in Westminster. His videos get the hits online because he says what we feel. Snp would walk the uk election if they were a uk party

If you're thinking Jack Boots and Blitzkrieg National Socialism then yes it's ridiculous, but that's where National Socialism ends and not where it starts. UK politics for the last few years has been driven by xenophobia and a jump to the right that has resulted in the Tories sweeping to power driven by policy that is popular because the electorate in England wanted rid of foreigners and wanted ethnic Brits (whatever that means) to be treated preferentially to EU citizens who by means of European law were entitled to the same as British born citizens. That is by definition National Socialism and as always with National Socialism it just doesn't work because it's based on lazy stereotyping of foreigners that portray them as the root cause of all things bad whereas in reality immigrants are normally a very productive part of society. At some point things take a downward spiral because to maintain the illusion that those in power are selling, they need to be seen to be taking measure to counter their imaginary enemy and these measures increasingly become more and more extreme. We're currently deporting immigrants to camps in Africa, how much further down the line to fascism do we need to go before as a nation we realise what we've become?

[Stairway 2 7]

If you're thinking Jack Boots and Blitzkrieg National Socialism then yes it's ridiculous, but that's where National Socialism ends and not where it starts. UK politics for the last few years has been driven by xenophobia and a jump to the right that has resulted in the Tories sweeping to power driven by policy that is popular because the electorate in England wanted rid of foreigners and wanted ethnic Brits (whatever that means) to be treated preferentially to EU citizens who by means of European law were entitled to the same as British born citizens. That is by definition National Socialism and as always with National Socialism it just doesn't work because it's based on lazy stereotyping of foreigners that portray them as the root cause of all things bad whereas in reality immigrants are normally a very productive part of society. At some point things take a downward spiral because to maintain the illusion that those in power are selling, they need to be seen to be taking measure to counter their imaginary enemy and these measures increasingly become more and more extreme. We're currently deporting immigrants to camps in Africa, how much further down the line to fascism do we need to go before as a nation we realise what we've become?

I don't think Rwanda will happen in any more than symbolic numbers. The EU have been doing the same in Tunisia for years and both are disgusting but comparing now to national Socialism is in very poor taste.

Saying I'm just talking about the start of nazism and not the horrific end is ridiculous. It's like calling someone Ted bundy but pre killing bundy.

Immigration has grown every year since brexit. But they are coming more from India Pakistan and Nigeria rather than Europe now. Immigrants are great for a nation and a net benefit

The cabinet are seen as left wing and socialist by the nutter backbenchers. Too much locking down during covid, introducing furlough, the windfall tax and mass infrastructure projects.


Guardian said after after one Sunak budget it was the most left wing in years
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/rishi-sunak-mini-budget-leftwing-labour-coronavirus-public-spending-state-ownership-political-agenda

Was called a socialist for the last budget too
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rishi-sunak-conservative-tom-tugendhat-peter-bone-people-b2006926.html%3famp

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think Rwanda will happen in any more than symbolic numbers. The EU have been doing the same in Tunisia for years and both are disgusting but comparing now to national Socialism is in very poor taste.

Saying I'm just talking about the start of nazism and not the horrific end is ridiculous. It's like calling someone Ted bundy but pre killing bundy.

Immigration has grown every year since brexit. But they are coming more from India Pakistan and Nigeria rather than Europe now. Immigrants are great for a nation and a net benefit

The cabinet are seen as left wing and socialist by the nutter backbenchers. Too much locking down during covid, introducing furlough, the windfall tax and mass infrastructure projects.


Guardian said after after one Sunak budget it was the most left wing in years
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/rishi-sunak-mini-budget-leftwing-labour-coronavirus-public-spending-state-ownership-political-agenda

Was called a socialist for the last budget too
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rishi-sunak-conservative-tom-tugendhat-peter-bone-people-b2006926.html%3famp

You're making my point for me, we have a Nationalist government making socialist policies.

[James310]

If you're thinking Jack Boots and Blitzkrieg National Socialism then yes it's ridiculous, but that's where National Socialism ends and not where it starts. UK politics for the last few years has been driven by xenophobia and a jump to the right that has resulted in the Tories sweeping to power driven by policy that is popular because the electorate in England wanted rid of foreigners and wanted ethnic Brits (whatever that means) to be treated preferentially to EU citizens who by means of European law were entitled to the same as British born citizens. That is by definition National Socialism and as always with National Socialism it just doesn't work because it's based on lazy stereotyping of foreigners that portray them as the root cause of all things bad whereas in reality immigrants are normally a very productive part of society. At some point things take a downward spiral because to maintain the illusion that those in power are selling, they need to be seen to be taking measure to counter their imaginary enemy and these measures increasingly become more and more extreme. We're currently deporting immigrants to camps in Africa, how much further down the line to fascism do we need to go before as a nation we realise what we've become?

Yet pretty much all the surveys and studies show the UK is one of the least racist countries in Europe, if not the world.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/03/this-map-shows-the-most-racist-countries-in-europe-and-how-britain-ranks-6612608/


https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46369046.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16550355797540&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet pretty much all the surveys and studies show the UK is one of the least racist countries in Europe, if not the world.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/03/this-map-shows-the-most-racist-countries-in-europe-and-how-britain-ranks-6612608/


https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46369046.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16550355797540&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

It's not what they say that counts, rather how they vote.

[Stairway 2 7]

You're making my point for me, we have a Nationalist government making socialist policies.

I'd think Jews living in the uk today who had relatives that lived in Germany in the 30s and 40s would say the comparison is insulting tbh

Tories are ***** but you lose the argument when saying they are Nazis, they also aren't socialist but mind neither were the nazis

[James310]

It's not what they say that counts, rather how they vote.

So if there was an election tomorrow and Labour won as per all the polls are predicting then everything you say would still be correct or wrong?

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd think Jews living in the uk today who had relatives that lived in Germany in the 30s and 40s would say the comparison is insulting tbh

Tories are ***** but you lose the argument when saying they are Nazis, they also aren't socialist but mind neither were the nazis

But I'm not the one comparing our current government to another that is responsible for the holocaust, you've done that. I've simply stated that the UK electorate were happy to elect a government that sells itself as both nationalist and socialist, which you have already confirmed in your posts.

[Hibrandenburg]

So if there was an election tomorrow and Labour won as per all the polls are predicting then everything you say would still be correct or wrong?

That would wholly deoend upon what policies they were elected on.

[Just Alf]

It that just to try to enhance the unionist/nationalist divide in some way or is there another point to it?Dunno, it was so obvious he was doing it, forgotten his name but anytime previously he talked about it, it was just the GF agreement, just seemed to jar as he said it multiple times.


Edit... Brando Lewis.

[Hibbyradge]

Two things can be true at the same time. Starmer is pretty useless but Corbyn would have been a disaster.


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Corbyn was a disaster.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61781601

Personally not worried about the declaration being late. It’s the fact that these people think it’s ok to keep accepting these gifts. He should be sacked.


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[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61781601

Personally not worried about the declaration being late. It’s the fact that these people think it’s ok to keep accepting these gifts. He should be sacked.


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I’d find it hard to resist a trip to The British Kebab Awards personally. But Mr. Mandelstarmer doesn’t seem your typical doner diner.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61772917.amp

[heretoday]

I don't think Starmer is the problem, the English working class are the problem, they've moved so far to the right that believing that pensioners should have enough to live on, kids should have a decent education and the health service should be well funded, now makes you part of the looney left. They've bought into the every man for themself philosophy and that with a huge pinch of xenophobia. No left wing leader stands a chance against a Tory party that has morphed into a mixture of UKIP and 1970's BNP, the Tories aren't the Tories anymore, they're National Socialists wearing Savile Row suits. Only thus can you explain why policies like demonising foreign nationals and creating concentration camps for immigrants in Africa are receiving popular support.

I agree.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61781601

Personally not worried about the declaration being late. It’s the fact that these people think it’s ok to keep accepting these gifts. He should be sacked.


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It's not against the rules to accept gifts so, no, he shouldn't be sacked for doing so.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's not against the rules to accept gifts so, no, he shouldn't be sacked for doing so.

Shouldn't be sacked but the whole thing needs looked at. Why is he getting tickets for thousands of pounds and 1500 paintings given to him, or gifts from companies.


Surely Shouldn't be accepting anything for free as it could bring influence

[Hibbyradge]

Shouldn't be sacked but the whole thing needs looked at. Why is he getting tickets for thousands of pounds and 1500 paintings given to him, or gifts from companies.


Surely Shouldn't be accepting anything for free as it could bring influence

I'm not sure if that it's fair to ban people from accepting gifts, but you're right, it would make the issue clear. However, the rules would need to be changed before anyone could be accused of breaking them.

[wookie70]

I'm not sure if that it's fair to ban people from accepting gifts, but you're right, it would make the issue clear. However, the rules would need to be changed before anyone could be accused of breaking them.

I think they should be under the same rules as Civil Servants. The Code states that: civil servants must not accept gifts or hospitality or receive other benefits from anyone which might reasonably be seen to compromise their personal judgement or integrity.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not sure if that it's fair to ban people from accepting gifts, but you're right, it would make the issue clear. However, the rules would need to be changed before anyone could be accused of breaking them.

I think it's absolutely fair to ban them from getting gifts from any company for any amount. Could say no more than £100 from private non family members. They get a good enough wage and have the possibility of too much influence

[Mon Dieu4]

I think it's absolutely fair to ban them from getting gifts from any company for any amount. Could say no more than £100 from private non family members. They get a good enough wage and have the possibility of too much influence

My work has a conflicts of interest department, you can accept anything up to the value of £25, anything above that you need to decline and let that team know

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220613/dc8d4e610c1d36627a3e25eb12d8d467.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Jessica Elgot@jessicaelgot

Starmer's spokesman has declined to say whether Labour would cancel the Rwanda policy if in government, though deeply critical of the policy's cost and efficiency. But declines to clarify if Starmer believes it is morally wrong.

FFS, show some courage, man.

[hibsbollah]

FFS, show some courage, man.

Starmer's spokesman has declined to say whether Labour would cancel the Rwanda policy if in government, though deeply critical of the policy's cost and efficiency. But declines to clarify if Starmer believes it is morally wrong. Jessica Elgot.

Profoundly depressing. But Starmers advisors clearly think that the 29% of Labour voters that support the Rwanda policy need comfort more than the 71% who disapprove. I don't understand it, no support for the rail strikes show yet again Starmer is wedded to the 'centre'':rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220615/71c37a217488c22144124021daa41343.jpg
Labour now backing hard brexit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

It's bizarre that with a government that can at best be described as shambolic we have an opposition leader who refuses to oppose. Get him to **** and get someone in who will do the job properly. The UK needs a strong Labour movement, be that in power or opposition.

I could almost handle the ruling out rejoining the EU and single market if it was with a view to implementing 'lexit'. Euroscepticism was an accepted left wing principle in the not so distant past. Starmer has no interest in that though, it's pandering to the weird ethno nationalism that has swept across parts of the UK, particularly aimed at those in the old Labour heartlands. Refusing to oppose a blatantly immoral anti immigration policy and talking about 'making Brexit work'. It's pathetic.

[ronaldo7]

It's been some day for the opposition. David Lammy, in answer to a question on sky news if the party will support an Indyref2, he says, no, we're a unionist party. Will the branch office in Scotland support this, asks the interviewer, yes says Lammy.

Branch office it is then. 😱

[hibsbollah]

It's bizarre that with a government that can at best be described as shambolic we have an opposition leader who refuses to oppose. Get him to **** and get someone in who will do the job properly. The UK needs a strong Labour movement, be that in power or opposition.

I could almost handle the ruling out rejoining the EU and single market if it was with a view to implementing 'lexit'. Euroscepticism was an accepted left wing principle in the not so distant past. Starmer has no interest in that though, it's pandering to the weird ethno nationalism that has swept across parts of the UK, particularly aimed at those in the old Labour heartlands. Refusing to oppose a blatantly immoral anti immigration policy and talking about 'making Brexit work'. It's pathetic.

This thing about criticising an evil policy for being 'shambolic' or 'disorganised' is it not only spectacularly misses the point, it actually solidifies the acceptance of neo-fascist policies by saying all it needs is a bit more organisation, crisper suits and better hair, and labour would do it too.

[Ozyhibby]

It's been some day for the opposition. David Lammy, in answer to a question on sky news if the party will support an Indyref2, he says, no, we're a unionist party. Will the branch office in Scotland support this, asks the interviewer, yes says Lammy.

Branch office it is then. [emoji33]

https://twitter.com/yesscot/status/1537105924334227456?s=12


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scorrie]

It's bizarre that with a government that can at best be described as shambolic we have an opposition leader who refuses to oppose. Get him to **** and get someone in who will do the job properly. The UK needs a strong Labour movement, be that in power or opposition.

I could almost handle the ruling out rejoining the EU and single market if it was with a view to implementing 'lexit'. Euroscepticism was an accepted left wing principle in the not so distant past. Starmer has no interest in that though, it's pandering to the weird ethno nationalism that has swept across parts of the UK, particularly aimed at those in the old Labour heartlands. Refusing to oppose a blatantly immoral anti immigration policy and talking about 'making Brexit work'. It's pathetic.

Spot on. The easiest government to oppose but is **** scared of the Daily Mail. If they’re clever, Lib Dems could clean up here

[Hiber-nation]

Spot on. The easiest government to oppose but is **** scared of the Daily Mail. If they’re clever, Lib Dems could clean up here

Aye they are a joke. "We're a bit like Tories but we don't lie as much as them (honest) so vote for us".

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair, they know where the votes are and I think public opinion on the way forward is becoming very different to what people in Scotland want. And when it comes to winning a UK general election, he has to go where the votes are. If that means ignoring what we think up here then it’s probably a smart move.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

Aye they are a joke. "We're a bit like Tories but we don't lie as much as them (honest) so vote for us".

The legacy of Corbyn should have been that genuinely left wing policies were back on the table for Labour. Presented by someone in a better fitting suit with nicer hair and a bit more palatable to the tabloid press but putting forward comparable policy to Corbyn, McDonnell and, to be fair to him, Ed Miliband as well. In fact that was what a big chunk of the rhetoric from Starmer was during the leadership contest. I'll go as far as to admit I was partially fooled by it.

The reality is that Starmer wants to present himself as a better dressed, better groomed and more organised version of Johnson. He refused to go on the attack during covid, refuses to go on the attack about a failed Brexit and is refusing to go on the attack about an inherently evil plan to 'send them back' beyond commenting on it being a bit disorganised.

He's just another neoliberal stooge and, almost comically, still seemingly unelectable. For all Blair's many faults at least people actually wanted to vote for him.

[neil7908]

This thing about criticising an evil policy for being 'shambolic' or 'disorganised' is it not only spectacularly misses the point, it actually solidifies the acceptance of neo-fascist policies by saying all it needs is a bit more organisation, crisper suits and better hair, and labour would do it too.

This. Its honestly the easiest policy in the world for any party on the left to criticise.

It's horrendously immoral, doesn't work and is hugely expensive. Australia is spending around $812m on housing 239 people in Papua New Guinea this year. That's $3.4m per person, per year.

It's honestly becoming a joke how many issues Labour seems unable to take a firm position on. They are morally bankrupt and the joke is that the right wing press still hate Starmer, and if BJ goes the Tories will win the next election.

[Stairway 2 7]

The Times
@thetimes
🔺 EXCLUSIVE: Sir Keir Starmer is preparing a speech about immigration in which he will rule out bringing back free movement with Europe if Labour wins the next election

[ronaldo7]

David Lammy of Scottish branch office fame is investigated under the MPs code of conduct in declaring financial interests to the value of £27,000

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-lammy-investigated-under-mps-conduct-rules/ar-AAYEBL5?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f18060822339443caf3f82a361d0e313

[Stonewall]

This. Its honestly the easiest policy in the world for any party on the left to criticise.

It's horrendously immoral, doesn't work and is hugely expensive. Australia is spending around $812m on housing 239 people in Papua New Guinea this year. That's $3.4m per person, per year.

It's honestly becoming a joke how many issues Labour seems unable to take a firm position on. They are morally bankrupt and the joke is that the right wing press still hate Starmer, and if BJ goes the Tories will win the next election.

Labour’s problem is that a lot of their target voters think it’s a good policy.

I think they have a huge problem. If you are traditionally the party who look after the interests of the working class and you response to globalisation and immigration is that it’s a fact of life and they’re going to have to live with it you’re leaving yourself wide open to charlatans and populists like Johnson and Farage who tell people that “I’m on you side”.

The populists know that many traditional Labour voters, unlike the people running the party, are socially conservative and play up to this.

[ronaldo7]

Labour Front Benchers Banned From Joining Picket Lines Amid Rail Strikes

Go Sir Keir.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-front-benchers-banned-from-picket-lines-amid-rail-strikes

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour Front Benchers Banned From Joining Picket Lines Amid Rail Strikes

Go Sir Keir.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-front-benchers-banned-from-picket-lines-amid-rail-strikes

The Tories have dragged UK politics so far to the right, that for Labour to take the centre ground they have to go Thatcherite. The UK political landscape is buggered.

[hibsbollah]

Labour Front Benchers Banned From Joining Picket Lines Amid Rail Strikes

Go Sir Keir.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-front-benchers-banned-from-picket-lines-amid-rail-strikes

It’s got an Orwellian, Newspeak feel to it. ‘However, we must show LEADERSHIP, so to that end cabinet members are reminded not to be on picket lines’…What does that even mean??! Is Leadership now a synonym for strike-phobia? Can someone remind these ***** why the party was formed in the first place?

[ronaldo7]

It’s got an Orwellian, Newspeak feel to it. ‘However, we must show LEADERSHIP, so to that end cabinet members are reminded not to be on picket lines’…What does that even mean??! Is Leadership now a synonym for strike-phobia? Can someone remind these ***** why the party was formed in the first place?

The Tories have got them boxed in. Sir Keir is too scared to move lest he gets painted as a militant revolutionist. Chance would be a fine thing. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Stop laughing at the back.


https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1538960620787322880

[Hibernia&Alba]

Stop laughing at the back.


https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1538960620787322880

Indeed. What is the point of a Labour Party that will not support striking working men and women during a cost of living crisis; that won't promise to reverse an illegal and obscene policy of sending refugees to Rwanda; that won't commit to reversing Tory benefit cuts; that won't commit to a more progressive taxation system? Just a few examples. I understand they are terrified of being vilified by the Tory press and Tory media pundits, but, unless you stand for something different than the Tories, Labour is meaningless. Under our first past the post Westminster system parties must be broad coalitions, and it's understandable Labour don't want to scare away middle England; but the cost of that is not standing for anything and losing core support, as we've seen in Scotland. They are constantly on the defensive and never seem to make a positive and optimistic case for a progressive alternative.

[ronaldo7]

Indeed. What is the point of a Labour Party that will not support striking working men and women during a cost of living crisis; that won't promise to reverse an illegal and obscene policy of sending refugees to Rwanda; that won't commit to reversing Tory benefit cuts; that won't commit to a more progressive taxation system? Just a few examples. I understand they are terrified of being vilified by the Tory press and Tory media pundits, but, unless you stand for something different than the Tories, Labour is meaningless. Under our first past the post Westminster system parties must be broad coalitions, and it's understandable Labour don't want to scare away middle England; but the cost of that is not standing for anything and losing core support, as we've seen in Scotland. They are constantly on the defensive and never seem to make a positive and optimistic case for a progressive alternative.

His focus groups are telling him he needs to win middle England. If he can move a couple of seats in Scotland it's a bonus.

They don't really stand for anything to do with Warrington woman any more. Berkshire blonde is more their thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Starmer to snub the durham miners gala. First time a Labour Party leader will have not appeared!!

[Hibrandenburg]

Starmer to snub the durham miners gala. First time a Labour Party leader will have not appeared!!

It's almost as if Labour have filled the vacuum in the centre right left by the Tories.

[SHODAN]

Starmer to snub the durham miners gala. First time a Labour Party leader will have not appeared!!

He is actually going to get them PASOKed at this rate.

[cabbageandribs1875]

said it when starmer got the gig, labour need to disband and the left start their own party :agree: get the unions to stop feeding Starmer their members well earned contributions :agree:


(1) RD Hale on Twitter: "Sir Keir Starmer is now telling his frontbenchers to apologise or face disciplinary action for attending the rail strike. What has the Labour Party become?" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/RickyDHale/status/1539721625226170368)

[ronaldo7]

BA workers want the 10% pay cut they took during the pandemic reversed. Labour and David Lammy won't stand with them.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1540991059718819840

[wookie70]

BA workers want the 10% pay cut they took during the pandemic reversed. Labour and David Lammy won't stand with them.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1540991059718819840

Surely the remaining Labour voters in Scotland must be considering who to vote for. They are not the workers party, we need a new one

[Since90+2]

Surely the remaining Labour voters in Scotland must be considering who to vote for. They are not the workers party, we need a new one

I think the issue is there isn't an alternative option for traditional labour voters. Not one that is likely to be elected anyway.

[neil7908]

BA workers want the 10% pay cut they took during the pandemic reversed. Labour and David Lammy won't stand with them.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1540991059718819840

I know it's been said as a joke many times but they really are just Tory lite under Starmer.

I guess that will get them elected and I have no doubt they will govern better than the current lot but that's hardly a high bar to set!

The chances of them enacting meaningful policies that will in any serious way help the working class and less fortunate seems extremely remote as it stands.

[hibsbollah]

I know it's been said as a joke many times but they really are just Tory lite under Starmer.

I guess that will get them elected and I have no doubt they will govern better than the current lot but that's hardly a high bar to set!

The chances of them enacting meaningful policies that will in any serious way help the working class and less fortunate seems extremely remote as it stands.

I think most of us on this thread are of a similar mind about Starmer. Those who liked him have either changed their mind or stayed off the thread, or don’t care about Labours progress enough to contribute, which is fair enough.

There’s a couple of polls that make interesting reading. The first one is voting intention through Politico.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

That gives Labour a sustained 6 point lead since January, so that’s 6 months with a poll lead that would give an opposition party a lot of confidence. On the surface pretty impressive, and although I often complain that Corbyns poll numbers were actually a lot better than the press reported, the truth is he never achieved that in opposition. The best he did was 3 or 4 months in late 2017 when he had a 3 point ish lead, and then it was neck and neck for a few months into early 2018. There was the odd outlier here and there where they had 8 point leads, but nothing sustained for a period of months.

But then look at Starmers current approval rating. It’s awful, UK voters clearly absolutely hate him and it’s been getting worse. For no obvious xternal reason. He’s had no scandals to rival Boris, a compliant press and he has successfully suppressed internal dissent from the left. But he’s gone from less than 20% thinking he’s doing badly in May 2020 to over 50% a couple of years later. It’s spectacularly bad. He has a similar amount of all voters think he’s doing badly as did Corbyn in 2017-2019. But it’s the speed of the decline that’s remarkable without a clear reason. And I never ever hear anything in the media about these approval ratings.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/keir-starmer-approval-rating

So what we have is Labour polling consistently well for 6 months, with a decent lead that should be replicated in a general election, but with an historically unpopular leader who stands for nothing. They’re only leading because of the disaster on the opposite side of the HoC. Added to that, even if the Tories do continue to shoot themselves in the foot and Labour retains a lead, the worry is that in posh constituencies anti Boris votes will go to Lib Dems instead and in red wall seats the kind of swing he got in Wakefield won’t be enough. And Scotland is a lost cause without a SNP scandal or other unexpected collapse.

It also shows how weak our collective National faith is in politics generally.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well said Brian, but they won't say it or act on it if in charge


rty
@UKLabour
· Jun 26
Under this Tory government, Britain’s growth has ground to a halt.

And they are too distracted by their own failings to deal with it.

Labour has a plan to tackle the cost of living crisis and build a stronger, more secure economy


@ProfBrianCox
·
11h
The reason the UK will have the lowest growth in the G7 next year is Brexit. We're not going to reverse the decline until we begin to remove the barriers - economic, social, scientific - that we chose to erect with the rest of our continent. That's not rocket science. Just say

[hibsbollah]

BA workers want the 10% pay cut they took during the pandemic reversed. Labour and David Lammy won't stand with them.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1540991059718819840

Pictures on Lammas own social media of him on a FE college picket line in 2018, with ‘Proud to join members on UCU picket line’ prominent, exposes the total hypocrisy of Lammys position and the diktat of the leadership on this issue.

[ronaldo7]

Pictures on Lammas own social media of him on a FE college picket line in 2018, with ‘Proud to join members on UCU picket line’ prominent, exposes the total hypocrisy of Lammys position and the diktat of the leadership on this issue.

It's the situation the BA workers find themselves in. They're just looking for their pay to be reinstated after the pandemic. Surely labour can at least back that.

[Smartie]

It's the situation the BA workers find themselves in. They're just looking for their pay to be reinstated after the pandemic. Surely labour can at least back that.

If they can't, then I think everything from the centre to the left need to have a long hard think about who and what they stand for. The disbanding (or desertion) of some of the major parties may be necessary with possibly new ones being formed.

I can't help but think there's a colossal opportunity being missed. You can stop short of being a full blown commie by understanding that sometimes workers have a legitimate grievance and deserve to have someone fighting their corner. Enough people will have either gone through hard times, be going through hard times or be about to go through hard times for there to be a decent amount of empathy that could and should be tapped into.

You'd like to think that the UK had more to offer politically than just different severities of right wing English nationalism.

[He's here!]

Starmer to snub the durham miners gala. First time a Labour Party leader will have not appeared!!

I don't think that's true? IIRC Milliband was the first Labour leader to attend in about 25 years.

[He's here!]

His focus groups are telling him he needs to win middle England. If he can move a couple of seats in Scotland it's a bonus.

They don't really stand for anything to do with Warrington woman any more. Berkshire blonde is more their thing.

Labour lost their deposit in Tiverton (which I think is in Devon?), albeit partly due to tactical voting for the Lib Dems, while the turnout in former 'Red Wall' Wakefield was only 39% so it's not as though wavering Tories are flocking to Starmer across the country.

Labour have a major rebuilding job to do post-Corbyn, just as the Tories will once Johnson is finally ousted, and it's clear they need somebody with more charisma than Starmer to lead it. In saying that, if the Tories are nuts enough to persevere with Johnson until the 2024 election I guess Starmer might just become the least-worst option as PM.

[ronaldo7]

Labour lost their deposit in Tiverton (which I think is in Devon?), albeit partly due to tactical voting for the Lib Dems, while the turnout in former 'Red Wall' Wakefield was only 39% so it's not as though wavering Tories are flocking to Starmer across the country.

Labour have a major rebuilding job to do post-Corbyn, just as the Tories will once Johnson is finally ousted, and it's clear they need somebody with more charisma than Starmer to lead it. In saying that, if the Tories are nuts enough to persevere with Johnson until the 2024 election I guess Starmer might just become the least-worst option as PM.

The Tory vote stayed at home imo, not like them, but it did help the Labour place man, who lost a number of votes himself I believe. The Tories will get their act together before the next UK election. Whether Labour can is another matter.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know it's been said as a joke many times but they really are just Tory lite under Starmer.

I guess that will get them elected and I have no doubt they will govern better than the current lot but that's hardly a high bar to set!

The chances of them enacting meaningful policies that will in any serious way help the working class and less fortunate seems extremely remote as it stands.

I wasn't joking, under this Labour leadership it's looking more and more like they are trying to fill the centre right void left by the Tories who have morphed into the Brexit Party/70's BNP.

A Labour Party that can't or won't support workers in what is definitely justifiable industrial action, should remove the word "labour" from their party's name.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think the tories are that far right compared to many government, they are populist and will do anything to stay in power. They are hated by the right in the backbenches, accused of being fiscally socialist.

They grandstand on immigration like Rwanda. But at the same time are very much a government of immigration, immigration has raised every year they have been in and is at record levels.

They have spent billions on infrastructure, nationalising the railways, furlough, windfall tax

Here is the guardian saying the tories being more left than usual should let Labour be more left than usual. Although the opposite has happened, keir is confused as he agrees with many of the policies
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/rishi-sunak-mini-budget-leftwing-labour-coronavirus-public-spending-state-ownership-political-agenda

A number of articles with tories complaining that the gov is socialist.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/rishi-sunak-embraces-socialism-again-with-a-windfall-tax-for-uk#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rishi-sunak-conservative-tom-tugendhat-peter-bone-people-b2006926.html%3famp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/27/boris-johnson-no-socialist-spending-make-labour-job-harder

I agree with the last one although fiscally right of centre, it's mental to call them left wing. But the point is if Labour stay centre right there plans will overlap, like when they said the windfall cash this month was their idea first. Its an opportunity to have a real left wing choice

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think the tories are that far right compared to many government, they are populist and will do anything to stay in power. They are hated by the right in the backbenches, accused of being fiscally socialist.

They grandstand on immigration like Rwanda. But at the same time are very much a government of immigration, immigration has raised every year they have been in and is at record levels.

They have spent billions on infrastructure, nationalising the railways, furlough, windfall tax

Here is the guardian saying the tories being more left than usual should let Labour be more left than usual. Although the opposite has happened, keir is confused as he agrees with many of the policies
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/rishi-sunak-mini-budget-leftwing-labour-coronavirus-public-spending-state-ownership-political-agenda

A number of articles with tories complaining that the gov is socialist.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/rishi-sunak-embraces-socialism-again-with-a-windfall-tax-for-uk#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rishi-sunak-conservative-tom-tugendhat-peter-bone-people-b2006926.html%3famp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/27/boris-johnson-no-socialist-spending-make-labour-job-harder

I agree with the last one although fiscally right of centre, it's mental to call them left wing. But the point is if Labour stay centre right there plans will overlap, like when they said the windfall cash this month was their idea first. Its an opportunity to have a real left wing choice

I agree. There are two things this govt stand for. Filling the pockets of their chums and themselves with public money and keeping the show on the road by keeping Johnson.
Everything else is about serving those aims. Left or right makes no difference to them. Democracy is just an issue they have to deal with and if they have to undermine it to stay in power then they will have no problem doing so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree. There are two things this govt stand for. Filling the pockets of their chums and themselves with public money and keeping the show on the road by keeping Johnson.
Everything else is about serving those aims. Left or right makes no difference to them. Democracy is just an issue they have to deal with and if they have to undermine it to stay in power then they will have no problem doing so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think trump was similar, not smart enough to have an ideology just a narcissist. Can be dangerous though as you say they can be bought by the highest bidder. It will be frightening to see how far they will stoop to stay in power. Must be the worst cabinet we've ever had

[Hibernia&Alba]

What is the purpose of a Labour Party that won't support striking working people during a cost of living crisis? They are so terrified of attacks from the Tory press, so desperate to appease middle England, they abandon the thing the party was formed to do: represent the case of working people. These Blairites are a waste of space. If you can't support railway workers at a time like this, go and be Tories.


https://youtu.be/gOuud0FcMYU

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think that's true? IIRC Milliband was the first Labour leader to attend in about 25 years.

Corbyn addressed the miner's gala each year between 2016 and 2019. Milliband was the first to address the gala since Kinnock but other leaders have attended.

Considering Blair and brown were 2 of the leaders not invited to speak you can understand why. 😉

[hibsbollah]

What is the purpose of a Labour Party that won't support striking working people during a cost of living crisis? They are so terrified of attacks from the Tory press, so desperate to appease middle England, they abandon the thing the party was formed to do: represent the case of working people. These Blairites are a waste of space. If you can't support railway workers at a time like this, go and be Tories.


https://youtu.be/gOuud0FcMYU

He's now apologised and claims he 'misheard the question'. But still hasn't clarified whether or not he supports BA workers action to reverse a pay cut, they are not even demanding a pay increase. I was concerned about Labours direction under Starmer, who was elected on a strong pro-union mainfesto, but actually refusing to support strikes for workers getting pay cuts in a time of 11% inflation is beyond what I even expected.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He's now apologised and claims he 'misheard the question'. But still hasn't clarified whether or not he supports BA workers action to reverse a pay cut, they are not even demanding a pay increase. I was concerned about Labours direction under Starmer, who was elected on a strong pro-union mainfesto, but actually refusing to support strikes for workers getting pay cuts in a time of 11% inflation is beyond what I even expected.

Misheard the question? So is Lammy now supporting the RMT workers?

[He's here!]

Misheard the question? So is Lammy now supporting the RMT workers?

Seems to be the excuse of the day. Swinney used it as well to cover his blushes earlier.

[Hibrandenburg]

What is the purpose of a Labour Party that won't support striking working people during a cost of living crisis? They are so terrified of attacks from the Tory press, so desperate to appease middle England, they abandon the thing the party was formed to do: represent the case of working people. These Blairites are a waste of space. If you can't support railway workers at a time like this, go and be Tories.


https://youtu.be/gOuud0FcMYU

:applause:

[wookie70]

Lammy is just another mouth top hire. He will blow with whatever wind takes him in the direction of more power or cash.

[weecounty hibby]

Two Labour councillors in Edinburgh suspended for refusing to back the Tories. That says all you need to know about the modern Labour party. Won't back striking workers but will back the Tories to the extent they'll suspend councillors for not doing so

[Hibrandenburg]

Two Labour councillors in Edinburgh suspended for refusing to back the Tories. That says all you need to know about the modern Labour party. Won't back striking workers but will back the Tories to the extent they'll suspend councillors for not doing so

Link please!

[weecounty hibby]

Link please!

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20243849.edinburgh-labour-suspend-two-councillors-tory-deal-opposition/

All over twitter as well. Dont see the usual unionist msm saying much about it tho

[ronaldo7]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20243849.edinburgh-labour-suspend-two-councillors-tory-deal-opposition/

All over twitter as well. Dont see the usual unionist msm saying much about it tho

Anas told us they didn't do a deal. How did they get suspended if their wasnt a deal. 😂

8 week suspension. Is their name Alex Edwards.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20243849.edinburgh-labour-suspend-two-councillors-tory-deal-opposition/

All over twitter as well. Dont see the usual unionist msm saying much about it tho


Thanks, I can feel my Labour ancestors birling in their graves.

[degenerated]

Thankfully labour exist to tell us what we need..

https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1542267244553637888?t=UnP5Sy5qW6F-BLhW3Sl7iQ&s=19

[Ozyhibby]

Thankfully labour exist to tell us what we need..

https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1542267244553637888?t=UnP5Sy5qW6F-BLhW3Sl7iQ&s=19

We need help…[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

jessicaelgot
Exc - Labour plans a major offensive to spike Tories’ guns on “coalition of chaos.” He will vow no Indy ref and no deal with SNP - saying Labour would rather govern as a minority than give any quarter to the SNP. Pledge likely to be sealed at party conference

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/01/labour-never-strike-deal-snp-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=share_btn_tw

[hibsbollah]

jessicaelgot
Exc - Labour plans a major offensive to spike Tories’ guns on “coalition of chaos.” He will vow no Indy ref and no deal with SNP - saying Labour would rather govern as a minority than give any quarter to the SNP. Pledge likely to be sealed at party conference

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/01/labour-never-strike-deal-snp-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=share_btn_tw

Drives me ****ing mental. The Mandelstarmer Labour Party is the most timid, craven pointless force in British politics. When a loose centre left grouping is ACTUALLY within grasp, he just moves to the right every time, as if The Daily Mail are ever going to stop talking nonsense. Don’t run, fight the case.

[Ozyhibby]

jessicaelgot
Exc - Labour plans a major offensive to spike Tories’ guns on “coalition of chaos.” He will vow no Indy ref and no deal with SNP - saying Labour would rather govern as a minority than give any quarter to the SNP. Pledge likely to be sealed at party conference

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/01/labour-never-strike-deal-snp-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=share_btn_tw

Didn’t they say they wouldn’t form coalitions with Tories in the recent council elections? [emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting wee snippet at the bottom of that article:


However, there are likely to be further tensions over Labour’s approach to constitutional reform in the UK, spearheaded by a strategy from Gordon Brown.

That is now expected to be delayed – perhaps even until September. Brown’s interim strategy was presented to the shadow cabinet before Easter but it divided opinion among shadow ministers – some of whom were dissatisfied with how the proposed settlement would affect English regions.

So Broon's plan being watered down even before it sees the light of day. Quelle surprise.

[JeMeSouviens]

Drives me ****ing mental. The Mandelstarmer Labour Party is the most timid, craven pointless force in British politics. When a loose centre left grouping is ACTUALLY within grasp, he just moves to the right every time, as if The Daily Mail are ever going to stop talking nonsense. Don’t run, fight the case.

Obviously learning nothing from the Mick Lynch experience. Having said that, a ML approach requires a bit of wit and actually being able to think and react in real time to what's being asked. Which is probably beyond 99% on the front benches. :rolleyes:

[He's here!]

jessicaelgot
Exc - Labour plans a major offensive to spike Tories’ guns on “coalition of chaos.” He will vow no Indy ref and no deal with SNP - saying Labour would rather govern as a minority than give any quarter to the SNP. Pledge likely to be sealed at party conference

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/01/labour-never-strike-deal-snp-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=share_btn_tw

That's good to hear. Some decisive talk from Starmer at last. Started well with the clampdown on anti-Semitism but it's all been half-baked stuff since then.

This gives me more confidence in voting Labour though.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Drives me ****ing mental. The Mandelstarmer Labour Party is the most timid, craven pointless force in British politics. When a loose centre left grouping is ACTUALLY within grasp, he just moves to the right every time, as if The Daily Mail are ever going to stop talking nonsense. Don’t run, fight the case.

Starmer is terrified of the right wing media and pundits and will do anything to appease. Constantly on the back foot against their cynicism, Starmer fails to make the positive case for progressive change. This awful government keeps on presenting Labour with open goals, but they shy away. Labour should be using the mounting strikes to hammer the government on the cost of living crisis, yet they are constantly put on the defensive by the Tories, who portray Labour as in favour of public disruption. It's really pathetic.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's good to hear. Some decisive talk from Starmer at last. Started well with the clampdown on anti-Semitism but it's all been half-baked stuff since then.

This gives me more confidence in voting Labour though.

Labour are more interested in not upsetting voters like you than they are in addressing the concerns of the millions of natural Labour supporters who desperately need Labour to fight their corner. The swing voters will quickly forgive the Tories and return to supporting them, but the core Labour vote become disaffected in the long term, as happened in Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

That's good to hear. Some decisive talk from Starmer at last. Started well with the clampdown on anti-Semitism but it's all been half-baked stuff since then.

This gives me more confidence in voting Labour though.

Decisive talk? Admitting the best Labour can achieve with him in charge is minority government?


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[He's here!]

Decisive talk? Admitting the best Labour can achieve with him in charge is minority government?


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Or a strong statement of intent? ie that Labour is confident of a winning a majority by itself. As things stand they really just need to tread water to do so as the Tories continue to do their job for them. And I guess there's an outside chance Beergate will see Starmer forced to make way for a leader with some charisma, which would really enhance their electability.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or a strong statement of intent? ie that Labour is confident of a winning a majority by itself. As things stand they really just need to tread water to do so as the Tories continue to do their job for them. And I guess there's an outside chance Beergate will see Starmer forced to make way for a leader with some charisma, which would really enhance their electability.

Plus show up Johnson even more for not doing likewise. If I was a Lab supporter I’d have my fingers crossed Durham polis come up with the goods.

[ronaldo7]

Or a strong statement of intent? ie that Labour is confident of a winning a majority by itself. As things stand they really just need to tread water to do so as the Tories continue to do their job for them. And I guess there's an outside chance Beergate will see Starmer forced to make way for a leader with some charisma, which would really enhance their electability.

Step forward, Ian Murray. 😆

[ronaldo7]

Those Labour party followers need to get in line. Go Anas.

https://twitter.com/marcuscarslaw1/status/1542842616802418688

https://twitter.com/SonOfScotland1/status/1542817508704518146

[Hibbyradge]

What is the purpose of a Labour Party that won't support striking working people during a cost of living crisis? They are so terrified of attacks from the Tory press, so desperate to appease middle England, they abandon the thing the party was formed to do: represent the case of working people. These Blairites are a waste of space. If you can't support railway workers at a time like this, go and be Tories.


https://youtu.be/gOuud0FcMYU

My heart agrees with most of your sentiments, and I do find myself having to hold my nose at some of Labour's decisions, but what's the point of a political party with aspirations to govern and change the direction that the country is heading, if it can't get elected?

I've not been following the news, or this forum, nearly as much as I used to because doing so was having serious negative effects on me.

Losing Indy, Brexit, Trump, Covid, refugees to Africa and Johnson to name a few things, have worn me down.

We must get the Tories out, whatever that takes. That's the prize we have to strive for. Don't give the press any ammunition particularly when Labour's position is irrelevant in any practical sense.

I hate this lot more than I hated Thatcher and that's something I never thought was possible. Losing again is unthinkable.

[Bostonhibby]

My heart agrees with most of your sentiments, and I do find myself having to hold my nose at some of Labour's decisions, but what's the point of a political party with aspirations to govern and change the direction that the country is heading, if it can't get elected?

I've not been following the news, or this forum, nearly as much as I used to because doing so was having serious negative effects on me.

Losing Indy, Brexit, Trump, Covid, refugees to Africa and Johnson to name a few things, have worn me down.

We must get the Tories out, whatever that takes. That's the prize we have to strive for. Don't give the press any ammunition particularly when Labour's position is irrelevant in any practical sense.

I hate this lot more than I hated Thatcher and that's something I never thought was possible. Losing again is unthinkable.Once more, my views, and position on my political party are aligned with what you say here.

Pragmatism is required as the price to maybe shift this toxic, nasty government we have.

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[Hibbyradge]

Decisive talk? Admitting the best Labour can achieve with him in charge is minority government?


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Speaking on Friday morning in Wakefield, Sir Keir told BBC Breakfast: “This is a huge swing to Labour and vindicates how for the last two years we have been changing the Labour Party to make it into that confident party, that party that is facing the voters and is laser like focused on the issues that effect them and that’s why people have put their faith in Simon, put their faith in our Labour party.

“Now we have had the sort of swing that not only puts us on track not just for a Labour government but a majority Labour government. This is hugely significant for the Labour party. This is evidence we are on course for a Labour government.”

[Moulin Yarns]

Speaking on Friday morning in Wakefield, Sir Keir told BBC Breakfast: “This is a huge swing to Labour and vindicates how for the last two years we have been changing the Labour Party to make it into that confident party, that party that is facing the voters and is laser like focused on the issues that effect them and that’s why people have put their faith in Simon, put their faith in our Labour party.

“Now we have had the sort of swing that not only puts us on track not just for a Labour government but a majority Labour government. This is hugely significant for the Labour party. This is evidence we are on course for a Labour government.”

I heard that and thought 'Labour has just won a solid Labour seat they held for almost 90 years from a tory protest vote! Yeah, if that swing is repeated across the UK, including Scotland, then Labour will win the next election, but!!!! The SNP will still win a huge number of seats in Scotland so rethink your chances! '

[Hibbyradge]

I heard that and thought 'Labour has just won a solid Labour seat they held for almost 90 years from a tory protest vote! Yeah, if that swing is repeated across the UK, including Scotland, then Labour will win the next election, but!!!! The SNP will still win a huge number of seats in Scotland so rethink your chances! '

I agree, but I just wanted to point out that Starmer is, in fact, talking about winning a majority.

My mate here hopes Scotland gets independence but is fearful that they'll be saddled with the Tories for ever.

[Hibrandenburg]

My heart agrees with most of your sentiments, and I do find myself having to hold my nose at some of Labour's decisions, but what's the point of a political party with aspirations to govern and change the direction that the country is heading, if it can't get elected?

I've not been following the news, or this forum, nearly as much as I used to because doing so was having serious negative effects on me.

Losing Indy, Brexit, Trump, Covid, refugees to Africa and Johnson to name a few things, have worn me down.

We must get the Tories out, whatever that takes. That's the prize we have to strive for. Don't give the press any ammunition particularly when Labour's position is irrelevant in any practical sense.

I hate this lot more than I hated Thatcher and that's something I never thought was possible. Losing again is unthinkable.

The point in any government is to lead. If the Labour Party constantly try and latch on to UK public opinion, then the Labour Party will constantly edge further right. Socialism isn't dead, it just needs to be revived in a form that fits our contemporary society. People need to be persuaded and reassured that looking after the wellbeing of the community equates to looking after number 1. It's Labour's job to persuade the electorate that socialism is what the country needs and then prove it, getting elected on a conservative ticket and then introducing socialist policy via the back door only confirms that they are untrustworthy. If they can't provide socialism by selling socialism then there is no point in Labour.

[hibsbollah]

The point in any government is to lead. If the Labour Party constantly try and latch on to UK public opinion

I agree with the post you made, but this bit is the misnomer. Left wing policies ARE popular, Starmer IS refusing to commit himself to positions on labour relations, NHS funding, taxation, public ownership that ARE popular :dunno:
It’s like someone who spends most of his spare time down their golf club listening to actual Tories talking about what THEY want has been appointed an economic advisor and just assumes that represents British public opinion. It doesn’t.

The slightly more banal truth is probably that Starmer and those who advise him aren’t interested in fundamentally changing British culture and society and never will be.

[ronaldo7]

Speaking on Friday morning in Wakefield, Sir Keir told BBC Breakfast: “This is a huge swing to Labour and vindicates how for the last two years we have been changing the Labour Party to make it into that confident party, that party that is facing the voters and is laser like focused on the issues that effect them and that’s why people have put their faith in Simon, put their faith in our Labour party.

“Now we have had the sort of swing that not only puts us on track not just for a Labour government but a majority Labour government. This is hugely significant for the Labour party. This is evidence we are on course for a Labour government.”

I think you're getting ahead of yourself D.

General election 2019, labour got 17,219 Votes, last week they got 13,166 Votes.

Turnout in the by election was only 39% against the one in 2019 at over 60%. The Tories stayed at home.

[Hibbyradge]

I think you're getting ahead of yourself D.

General election 2019, labour got 17,219 Votes, last week they got 13,166 Votes.

Turnout in the by election was only 39% against the one in 2019 at over 60%. The Tories stayed at home.

I posted a quote.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree with the post you made, but this bit is the misnomer. Left wing policies ARE popular, Starmer IS refusing to commit himself to positions on labour relations, NHS funding, taxation, public ownership that ARE popular :dunno:
It’s like someone who spends most of his spare time down their golf club listening to actual Tories talking about what THEY want has been appointed an economic advisor and just assumes that represents British public opinion. It doesn’t.

The slightly more banal truth is probably that Starmer and those who advise him aren’t interested in fundamentally changing British culture and society and never will be.

"The slightly more banal truth is probably..."

That's exactly the type of thing the Daily Mail etc would level their opponents. Made to sound like it's a fact when it's a biased opinion/slur.

I doubt that you're right. You might be, but we won't know until Labour are in power so maybe we should wait until then before writing him off.

I didn't want Corbyn as leader because it was obvious to a blind man on a charging horse that he couldn't get elected.

Starmer has a chance.

[ronaldo7]

I posted a quote.

Sorry, I thought you were getting back on the starmer saddle.

Just wanted to point out the big swing didn't really occur they way he said.

[hibsbollah]

"The slightly more banal truth is probably..."

That's exactly the type of thing the Daily Mail etc would level their opponents. Made to sound like it's a fact when it's a biased opinion/slur.

I doubt that you're right. You might be, but we won't know until Labour are in power so maybe we should wait until then before writing him off.

I didn't want Corbyn as leader because it was obvious to a blind man on a charging horse that he couldn't get elected.

Starmer has a chance.

You're ignoring the personal approval polling, it's not hyperbole to say Starmer has already failed at selling himself to the UK. He 'has a chance' , and has a lead in the polls merely because he's up against Boris Johnson.

On Europe, I recall your position very clearly. You are very pro Europe, as am I. Starmer has explicitly ruled out even a discussion about revisiting the Brexit deal, 'we have to make Brexit work' and claims that the real problem is Johnsons team aren't 'tough enough' negotiators with Europe. Labour have NEVER been this Eurosceptic. Thats just one example of why I don't believe this opposition can be trusted to do anything it says it's going to do in power, aside from chase it for its own sake. That's the Mandelson blueprint. Radge, how can you reconcile being a pro European and voting for an anti European party? (As ever with Starmer, we never hear any actual policy proposals, but that's what the statements say certainly).

[Hibbyradge]

You're ignoring the personal approval polling, it's not hyperbole to say Starmer has already failed at selling himself to the UK. He 'has a chance' , and has a lead in the polls merely because he's up against Boris Johnson.

On Europe, I recall your position very clearly. You are very pro Europe, as am I. Starmer has explicitly ruled out even a discussion about revisiting the Brexit deal, 'we have to make Brexit work' and claims that the real problem is Johnsons team aren't 'tough enough' negotiators with Europe. Labour have NEVER been this Eurosceptic. Thats just one example of why I don't believe this opposition can be trusted to do anything it says it's going to do in power, aside from chase it for its own sake. That's the Mandelson blueprint. Radge, how can you reconcile being a pro European and voting for an anti European party? (As ever with Starmer, we never hear any actual policy proposals, but that's what the statements say certainly).

Your first paragraph is exactly why Labour can't show its hand until manifesto time.

The policy stance the party is taking is designed to keep the media quiet. If they said, for example, that they wanted to revisit or even have a discussion about Europe, it would be exaggerated and used to win back the votes they're losing, particularly in "red wall" constituencies.

I don't want to hear any radical policies from Labour yet. Why give the Tories and the media something to attack and the opportunity to divert the attention from their own terrible failings?

If they openly supported the rail workers, they'd be portrayed as not fit to govern, happy to be in the pocket of the unions, despite the inconvenience and disruption it's making to commuters lives.

I live in York Outer. I want rid of the Tories. Who else can I vote for?

[He's here!]

You're ignoring the personal approval polling, it's not hyperbole to say Starmer has already failed at selling himself to the UK. He 'has a chance' , and has a lead in the polls merely because he's up against Boris Johnson.

On Europe, I recall your position very clearly. You are very pro Europe, as am I. Starmer has explicitly ruled out even a discussion about revisiting the Brexit deal, 'we have to make Brexit work' and claims that the real problem is Johnsons team aren't 'tough enough' negotiators with Europe. Labour have NEVER been this Eurosceptic. Thats just one example of why I don't believe this opposition can be trusted to do anything it says it's going to do in power, aside from chase it for its own sake. That's the Mandelson blueprint. Radge, how can you reconcile being a pro European and voting for an anti European party? (As ever with Starmer, we never hear any actual policy proposals, but that's what the statements say certainly).

I imagine the fact Starmer more or less led the 'remoaner' faction (Corbyn sat on the fence, although fair to say he is a strong Euro sceptic) while Johnson's Get Brexit Done mantra had huge success in Red Wall seats is what underpins his pro-Brexit volte face?

[hibsbollah]

I imagine the fact Starmer more or less led the 'remoaner' faction (Corbyn sat on the fence, although fair to say he is a strong Euro sceptic) while Johnson's Get Brexit Done mantra had huge success in Red Wall seats is what underpins his pro-Brexit volte face?

…that IS the rationale, but ignores the reality that the majority of Labour voters especially in urban areas are emphatically Remainers. It’s an attempt to move the whole debate to the right and courting the grey vote, while assuming the Left have nowhere else to go, it’s the same rationale that the ‘Socialist’s’ of Mitterands party in France and Clinton era Republicans got wrong too.

[He's here!]

…that IS the rationale, but ignores the reality that the majority of Labour voters especially in urban areas are emphatically Remainers. It’s an attempt to move the whole debate to the right and courting the grey vote, while assuming the Left have nowhere else to go, it’s the same rationale that the ‘Socialist’s’ of Mitterands party in France and Clinton era Republicans got wrong too.

I guess then that it's about weighing up which stance is most likely to win Labour an election. Labour had more 'traditional' governents when I was a kid in the 70s but for most voters today the only elected Labour government they'll recall is Blair's New Labour. Post-Corbyn they seem to be trying to recapture that magic dust, minus the charismatic leadership.

[hibsbollah]

I can't really argue with any of this from Neal Lawson. Tactical ineptitude and moral vacuity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/03/talk-to-the-snp-keir-starmer-tory

[Hibbyradge]

I can't really argue with any of this from Neal Lawson. Tactical ineptitude and moral vacuity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/03/talk-to-the-snp-keir-starmer-tory

Remember the posters of Ed Milliband (I think) in Alex Salmond's top pocket?

[Moulin Yarns]

I can't really argue with any of this from Neal Lawson. Tactical ineptitude and moral vacuity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/03/talk-to-the-snp-keir-starmer-tory

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-labour-leader-anas-sarwar-bids-to-improve-working-between-uk-and-scottish-governments


So which is it? Don't talk or talk. The 2 faces of Labour! And I know Labour are not in government but it kind of explains why.

[hibsbollah]

Remember the posters of Ed Milliband (I think) in Alex Salmond's top pocket?

Yes, and they will always keep doing the same smears regardless of your response! That’s the point, it’s the nature of the Tory press. That’s the point the article is trying to make, you can’t disprove something that hasn’t happened yet.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-labour-leader-anas-sarwar-bids-to-improve-working-between-uk-and-scottish-governments


So which is it? Don't talk or talk. The 2 faces of Labour! And I know Labour are not in government but it kind of explains why.

In reality he wants the SG to do the UK govts bidding. Devolution under threat from this guy. Where is his plan that Gordon Brown was going to prepare for him?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220704/6ec004c166d9c51570b4d3d9c4c44133.jpg


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220704/6ec004c166d9c51570b4d3d9c4c44133.jpg


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So does labour think we are better off with Brexit going forward?

[Hibbyradge]

Yes, and they will always keep doing the same smears regardless of your response! That’s the point, it’s the nature of the Tory press. That’s the point the article is trying to make, you can’t disprove something that hasn’t happened yet.

Yes, the media will accuse Labour of all sorts, but there's no point giving them it on a plate.

He's obviously, and understandably, trying to distance himself from the accusation that voting Labour will lead to the break up of the UK.

The likelihood is that Labour will not win an overall majority so whatever Starmer says now, will be irrelevant in reality, because he will have to speak to whomever he needs to be PM.

[Hibbyradge]

So does labour think we are better off with Brexit going forward?

I'm hoping he's banned the cameras because he'll have his fingers firmly crossed!

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/edinburgh-council-leader-apologises-to-lidl-staff-over-twitter-outburst

Labour’s disdain for working people.


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[degenerated]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/edinburgh-council-leader-apologises-to-lidl-staff-over-twitter-outburst

Labour’s disdain for working people.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCammy day is having a howler. Abusive rants at shop workers, suspending councillors who didn't support giving Tories big jobs and appointing a racist as his transport convener.

[ronaldo7]

Labour on Friday.. We'll not be speaking to the SNP whatever the outcome

Labour on Monday, We'll put in place a law which states the UK and Scottish Govs have to speak with each other. :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Labour on Friday.. We'll not be speaking to the SNP whatever the outcome

Labour on Monday, We'll put in place a law which states the UK and Scottish Govs have to speak with each other. :rolleyes:

That's 2 separate issues, no?

[ronaldo7]

That's 2 separate issues, no?

Is it?

So if Labour are a minority government after the next GE, and we already have a Scottish government with the SNP in charge. What then?

[grunt]

We'll put in place a law which states the UK and Scottish Govs have to speak with each other. :rolleyes:
This is a nonsense. You can't legislate for co-operation.

[Colr]

So does labour think we are better off with Brexit going forward?

Would the EU want us back after all the damage and hostility?

French must be thinking de Gaulle was right all along. Reckon the best we’d get is a Norway deal.

[Ozyhibby]

This is a nonsense. You can't legislate for co-operation.

Let’s face it, he’s not a serious politician and thinks Scottish people are stupid. This guy thinks we are too dumb to recognise all his coalitions with the Tories in Scotland’s councils.


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/edinburgh-council-leader-apologises-to-lidl-staff-over-twitter-outburst

Labour’s disdain for working people.


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Has he said that on behalf of the whole Labour Movement or because he has been a bit of an arse??

[Ozyhibby]

I see Sarwar is trotting out the old Labour faithful of abolishing the HoL. This is always popular with Labour politicians while in opposition but never comes with any concrete commitments and the minute they are in power they start ramming full of old Labour stalwarts.
The man really thinks Scottish people are stupid.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220704/936b587aeb10e1e910212e559c0885cd.jpg


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[Jack]

I see Sarwar is trotting out the old Labour faithful of abolishing the HoL. This is always popular with Labour politicians while in opposition but never comes with any concrete commitments and the minute they are in power they start ramming full of old Labour stalwarts.
The man really thinks Scottish people are stupid.


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Seems even more wasted as he is a member if the Scottish Parliament with not even tenuous links to the HoL - unless his ambition is to join up with Ruthie!

Labour leaders in Scotland really do have a blind spot about what is within their remit and his speech writer is an idiot.

[Hibbyradge]

Is it?

So if Labour are a minority government after the next GE, and we already have a Scottish government with the SNP in charge. What then?

Of course it's different, Ronnie. There's a clear distinction.

There are any number of possibilities that can arise after a GE. 2 hung parliaments, Tories in WM and hung in Scotland etc etc.

It's about governments talking to each other, not political parties, and not just for the short term.

[Glory Lurker]

What does this co-operation idea look like? What's the framework? What's the dispute resolution? Is he suggesting there will be circumstances where Westminster will need to do what Holyrood wants?

[Ozyhibby]

What does this co-operation idea look like? What's the framework? What's the dispute resolution? Is he suggesting there will be circumstances where Westminster will need to do what Holyrood wants?

What are the penalties for non compliance? Will NS or BJ be arrested?


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[ronaldo7]

Of course it's different, Ronnie. There's a clear distinction.

There are any number of possibilities that can arise after a GE. 2 hung parliaments, Tories in WM and hung in Scotland etc etc.

It's about governments talking to each other, not political parties, and not just for the short term.

Do they not do that just now?

I'm sure a framework already exists between Westminster and Holyrood. The civil servants already have channels open. We may not like what each other is saying, but to try and make something from it, as Sarwar is doing just beggars belief.

He's not got the authority to do it anyway.

This Anas Sarwar, I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him.

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1543974741739978759

[degenerated]

Do they not do that just now?

I'm sure a framework already exists between Westminster and Holyrood. The civil servants already have channels open. We may not like what each other is saying, but to try and make something from it, as Sarwar is doing just beggars belief.

He's not got the authority to do it anyway.

This Anas Sarwar, I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him.

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1543974741739978759Frankie Boyle nails it....25998

[neil7908]

Frankie Boyle nails it....25998

It's funny because it's true. I have voted for a range of parties on the left, often choosing which one based on the particular election and candidate in question.

I have always voted Labour at the General Election. That's Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

But I won't be voting for this version of the party under Starmer.

I understand he is moving his party to a position of capturing voters in middle England. He wants to win the election and this might be his might be his best strategy.

But it's one that belittles and tramples on voters in Scotland. His Labour are bending over backwards to attract centre right or right wing voters in middle England at the expense of friendly voters in Scotland.

And I just can't get on board with that.

[Ozyhibby]

It's funny because it's true. I have voted for a range of parties on the left, often choosing which one based on the particular election and candidate in question.

I have always voted Labour at the General Election. That's Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

But I won't be voting for this version of the party under Starmer.

I understand he is moving his party to a position of capturing voters in middle England. He wants to win the election and this might be his might be his best strategy.

But it's one that belittles and tramples on voters in Scotland. His Labour are bending over backwards to attract centre right or right wing voters in middle England at the expense of friendly voters in Scotland.

And I just can't get on board with that.

To be fair, what we vote for has never mattered when it comes to UK elections. Unless you win in England then you don’t win. That’s where both parties have to focus all their policies.
Scotland doesn’t matter a jot to either of them.


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[Since90+2]

It's funny because it's true. I have voted for a range of parties on the left, often choosing which one based on the particular election and candidate in question.

I have always voted Labour at the General Election. That's Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

But I won't be voting for this version of the party under Starmer.

I understand he is moving his party to a position of capturing voters in middle England. He wants to win the election and this might be his might be his best strategy.

But it's one that belittles and tramples on voters in Scotland. His Labour are bending over backwards to attract centre right or right wing voters in middle England at the expense of friendly voters in Scotland.

And I just can't get on board with that.

I get what you're saying, but there is only ever going to be either a Conservative or Labour government, does the end not justify the means?

Starmer might be using the Trojan horse theory to get into power as he knows a left wing party just won't.

If it's either Tory or Labour at Westminster, that's a no brainer for me.

[Ozyhibby]

I get what you're saying, but there is only ever going to be either a Conservative or Labour government, does the end not justify the means?

Starmer might be using the Trojan horse theory to get into power as he knows a left wing party just won't.

If it's either Tory or Labour at Westminster, that's a no brainer for me.

To beat the Tories we must become the Tories. [emoji106]


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[degenerated]

It's funny because it's true. I have voted for a range of parties on the left, often choosing which one based on the particular election and candidate in question.

I have always voted Labour at the General Election. That's Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

But I won't be voting for this version of the party under Starmer.

I understand he is moving his party to a position of capturing voters in middle England. He wants to win the election and this might be his might be his best strategy.

But it's one that belittles and tramples on voters in Scotland. His Labour are bending over backwards to attract centre right or right wing voters in middle England at the expense of friendly voters in Scotland.

And I just can't get on board with that.The old argument that labour could never win without Scotland would appear to be a myth. Starmer and his top table couldn't care less about us up here.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220704/8c75d26277df9de8efcd71177045d797.jpg


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[Since90+2]

To beat the Tories we must become the Tories. [emoji106]


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In a UK wide election Labour have to take the centre ground. They will not be elected on a left wing ticket
, what other option do they have?

[Ozyhibby]

In a UK wide election Labour have to take the centre ground. They will not be elected on a left wing ticket
, what other option do they have?

I agree. Labour has to become what the south of England will vote for.


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[degenerated]

In a UK wide election Labour have to take the centre ground. They will not be elected on a left wing ticket
, what other option do they have?Surely it's their job to convince the electorate that their beliefs and policies are better than those on offer from the other side, not just pretend to be the other side.

[James310]

I agree. Labour has to become what the south of England will vote for.


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Not true, in 1997 the Tory's won more seats than Labour in the South East and South West and Labour still won a landslide victory.

[Colr]

I agree. Labour has to become what the south of England will vote for.


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“Red wall?”

[James310]

“Red wall?”

In 1997, 2001 and 2005 the Tory's won more seats than Labour across the South East and South West and Labour still won each election.

[Hibbyradge]

To beat the Tories we must become the Tories. [emoji106]


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To win the election you must win votes.

Or you can accept a future of protesting on the sidelines for eternity.

[Ozyhibby]

To win the election you must win votes.

Or you can accept a future of protesting on the sidelines for eternity.

That last sentence is where Scotland finds itself.


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[Kato]

To win the election you must win votes.

Or you can accept a future of protesting on the sidelines for eternity.They will have done their demographics and know what they have to say to win votes. Going after the 'xenophobic' is just business to them. There is also an element of being savvy. If Labour so much as point a toe towards Europe the Boris and Boris's Flying Monkeys would swceam and scweam and scweam about nothing else until the next election - as in, that would be all they have to say and it would be endless. T
Another 2-3 years of brexit gaslighting and "patriot" loons droning on around the flame. Labour will just be talking about the govts record for the time being.

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[Kato]

That last sentence is where Scotland finds itself.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat is true. Tactics or whatever its the English Labour Party fighting the next election. In fact if they called themselves that in England it would fly quite well. The spirit of Internationalism is long gone.

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[neil7908]

I get what you're saying, but there is only ever going to be either a Conservative or Labour government, does the end not justify the means?

Starmer might be using the Trojan horse theory to get into power as he knows a left wing party just won't.

If it's either Tory or Labour at Westminster, that's a no brainer for me.

For me that isn't quite true. In the 2016 US election you were voting for either Trump or Clinton. In that scenario, although Clinton wasn't my favourite politician ever, I would absolutely have voted for her.

In the UK though we vote for an MP to represent us, and there is no reason why a coalition government from parties on the left couldn't be formed.

Well actually, the reason it couldn't be is that the Starmer has gone out of his way to rule it out for one particular party. A party that attracts a lot of votes in Scotland, and one that has traditionally had fairly similar aims and ambitions.

But now he's saying to anyone in Scotland who votes SNP in a UK election that he will ignore us, and all to gain centre right voters in middle England who will turn on him anyway. He is setting a trap to ensure we as voters feel we have to back Labour or our votes will be wasted. It's been a deliberate tactic of his to push me and others to vote for his party, not by offering us anything, but by threatening to take away the power of our vote.

And I'm deeply, deeply unhappy with someone who should be a champion of the left gleefully taking this tactic to win over the Daily Mail.

Its almost as if he'll do anything to get elected.

And isn't that one of the biggest issues with the current lot? They have no ideology, no beliefs, no vision except to get in power. The way Starmer has behaved since taking leadership gives me very little faith in him to govern fairly.

So I'm out. But he will probably become PM due to how terrible the Tories are, do a middling job for one term but still find the right wing press and voters he desperately coverts turn on him immediately and boot him out straight away.

[Hibbyradge]

That last sentence is where Scotland finds itself.


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Indeed, which is why I support independence.

But I don't live in Scotland anymore and I'm desperate to get rid of the Tories and there are millions of people like me.

Unless Labour makes itself popular with the electorate, we'll never get them out.

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220704/8c75d26277df9de8efcd71177045d797.jpg


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Ban acronyms.

[Bristolhibby]

Would the EU want us back after all the damage and hostility?

French must be thinking de Gaulle was right all along. Reckon the best we’d get is a Norway deal.

TBF that’s waaay better than what we currently have.

J

[Bristolhibby]

For me that isn't quite true. In the 2016 US election you were voting for either Trump or Clinton. In that scenario, although Clinton wasn't my favourite politician ever, I would absolutely have voted for her.

In the UK though we vote for an MP to represent us, and there is no reason why a coalition government from parties on the left couldn't be formed.

Well actually, the reason it couldn't be is that the Starmer has gone out of his way to rule it out for one particular party. A party that attracts a lot of votes in Scotland, and one that has traditionally had fairly similar aims and ambitions.

But now he's saying to anyone in Scotland who votes SNP in a UK election that he will ignore us, and all to gain centre right voters in middle England who will turn on him anyway. He is setting a trap to ensure we as voters feel we have to back Labour or our votes will be wasted. It's been a deliberate tactic of his to push me and others to vote for his party, not by offering us anything, but by threatening to take away the power of our vote.

And I'm deeply, deeply unhappy with someone who should be a champion of the left gleefully taking this tactic to win over the Daily Mail.

Its almost as if he'll do anything to get elected.

And isn't that one of the biggest issues with the current lot? They have no ideology, no beliefs, no vision except to get in power. The way Starmer has behaved since taking leadership gives me very little faith in him to govern fairly.

So I'm out. But he will probably become PM due to how terrible the Tories are, do a middling job for one term but still find the right wing press and voters he desperately coverts turn on him immediately and boot him out straight away.

What he says now and what he has to do post GE are two completely different things.

The SNP price could well be Customs Union, Single Market and Freedom of Movement.

Might be moot as we have Independence by then.

Either way, Labour and Starmer will need the support of SNP MPs.

J

[James310]

What he says now and what he has to do post GE are two completely different things.

The SNP price could well be Customs Union, Single Market and Freedom of Movement.

Might be moot as we have Independence by then.

Either way, Labour and Starmer will need the support of SNP MPs.

J

What do the SNP have that Labour would want?

He just has to say do you want to vote with me and Labour to pass progressive center left policy, or do you want to vote with the Tory's to oppose me? Imagine this place if the SNP started voting with the Tory's! I guess they could abstain at every vote but that would seem pointless.

[neil7908]

What do the SNP have that Labour would want?

He just has to say do you want to vote with me and Labour to pass progressive center left policy, or do you want to vote with the Tory's to oppose me? Imagine this place if the SNP started voting with the Tory's! I guess they could abstain at every vote but that would seem pointless.

Why would the SNP prop up a party that can't get a majority of its own accord and refuses to even consider speaking with them?

To form a government Labour would need to get enough votes initially to support Starmer as PM. And if he doesn't care to even speak to that party that will represent the vast majority of voting Scots, why would SNP even consider voting to form a Labour Government when they had no say in policy? The SNP hold all the cards - one move and they can bring down the Labour government. No way that will hold for a full term. It wouldn't even get off the ground for the reason above.

A hung parliament with no formal coalition would just mean another vote. That can't be laid on the SNP. It would 100% be on Labour for not even discussing coalition.

[James310]

Why would the SNP prop up a party that can't get a majority of its own accord and refusing to even consider speaking with them?

To form a government they would need to get enough votes initially to support Starmer as PM. And if he doesn't care to even speak to that party that will represent the vast majority of voting Scots, why would they even consider voting to form a Labour government?

A hung parliament with no formal coalition would just mean another vote. That can't be laid on the SNP. It would 100% be on Labour for not even discussing coalition.

Well the alternative to propping up Labour is not propping them up and voting with the Tory party. That would be unthinkable for the SNP, would never happen.

But again he would say you can vote with me and Labour for progressive left policy, or vote with the Tory's? If they choose to abstain and it forces another election and the Tory's get back in well....

So actually if you really want rid of the Tory's and a potential overall majority then the Labour message in Scotland is vote Labour, a vote for the SNP will be wasted.

[Glory Lurker]

Well the alternative to propping up Labour is not propping them up and voting with the Tory party. That would be unthinkable for the SNP, would never happen.

But again he would say you can vote with me and Labour for progressive left policy, or vote with the Tory's? If they choose to abstain and it forces another election and the Tory's get back in well....

So actually if you really want rid of the Tory's and a potential overall majority then the Labour message in Scotland is vote Labour, a vote for the SNP will be wasted.

No, what he is saying is "Scotland, you either vote Labour or you **** off".

[Bristolhibby]

What do the SNP have that Labour would want?

He just has to say do you want to vote with me and Labour to pass progressive center left policy, or do you want to vote with the Tory's to oppose me? Imagine this place if the SNP started voting with the Tory's! I guess they could abstain at every vote but that would seem pointless.

50 odd MPs. Labour will struggle to get an overall majority. SNP will be the King makers. Even if they (Scotland) we’re on our way out the door.

I’d push for PR and HOL reform also.

J

[James310]

50 odd MPs. Labour will struggle to get an overall majority. SNP will be the King makers. Even if they (Scotland) we’re on our way out the door.

I’d push for PR and HOL reform also.

J

Disagree, as I say he just has to say do you want to vote with me for progressive left policy or do you want to vote it down with the Tory's? What would the SNP do, vote with the Tory's?

[Hibbyradge]

Disagree, as I say he just has to say do you want to vote with me for progressive left policy or do you want to vote it down with the Tory's? What would the SNP do, vote with the Tory's?

They don't have to commit to supporting any party or policy.

They can keep Labour out of power and they can abstain on votes.

The Tories will offer plenty to the other parties if it's a hung parliament, and that includes the SNP.

Who would the SNP agree to support if the Tories offered an indy ref on the SNP's terms and Labour didn't? :dunno:

In a coalition, they could bring down their partners at any time. They'll get plenty from Labour if that scenario arises.

[James310]

They don't have to commit to supporting any party or policy.

They can keep Labour out of power and they can abstain on votes.

The Tories will offer plenty to the other parties if it's a hung parliament, and that includes the SNP.

Who would the SNP agree to support if the Tories offered an indy ref on the SNP's terms and Labour didn't? :dunno:

In a coalition, they could bring down their partners at any time. They'll get plenty from Labour if that scenario arises.

In no world are the Tory's offering IndyRef2, although stranger things have happened I guess.

If they keep Labour out of power that means they are keeping the Tory's in power. If Labour have the most seats but not an overall majority then they do as I say, vote for us or vote for the Tory's...what you going to do Nicola Sturgeon, vote for the Tory's?

If they abstained and it forced another election which gave the Tory's an overall majority then you can see the headlines already, SNP give power back to the Tory's.

Sure lots of scenarios but I don't think the SNP hold as many cards as is being made out. The worst would be multiple hung parliaments, so the Scottish Labour message will be to get Labour an overall majority and to chuck the Tory's out of Downing Street then vote Labour, a SNP vote is a wasted vote in Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

Disagree, as I say he just has to say do you want to vote with me for progressive left policy or do you want to vote it down with the Tory's? What would the SNP do, vote with the Tory's?

Means not a jot if your aim is independence.

Lifeboats are ready and waiting. Trying to right some of the mess that the U.K. is in would be a parting gift from the Scots. Scottish independence, closer EU alignment and PR. Brilliant.

J

[Ozyhibby]

If I were the SNP and an Indyref was off the table I’d push for Scotland to get the same deal as NI. In the SM and CU. Would mean a bit of infrastructure at the border but would be well worth it and it’s only a couple of roads. Takes border out the Irish Sea so they are happy (as happy as they ever get, I suppose).
There would also need to be proper devolution of all taxes.
Anyone think SNP voters want the party to just vote for any party in London without getting major concessions for Scotland must have rocks in their head. The days where we think all we have is a choice between Tories and Starmers Tory light have long gone. Labour will need to come up with something very attractive if the want to be in govt.
They know it. They’re not that stupid.

[Smartie]

No, what he is saying is "Scotland, you either vote Labour or you **** off".

I took his message as “**** off Scotland”.

As usual.

To be fair, I intend to tell his party to **** off, as usual.

And I’m there to be won over any time he likes, if he gets his policies and messaging right.

[ronaldo7]

When Rees mogg tells us that Labour are now following the Tories on Brexit, you know the games a bogey for Labour in Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

If I were the SNP and an Indyref was off the table I’d push for Scotland to get the same deal as NI. In the SM and CU. Would mean a bit of infrastructure at the border but would be well worth it and it’s only a couple of roads. Takes border out the Irish Sea so they are happy (as happy as they ever get, I suppose).
There would also need to be proper devolution of all taxes.
Anyone think SNP voters want the party to just vote for any party in London without getting major concessions for Scotland must have rocks in their head. The days where we think all we have is a choice between Tories and Starmers Tory light have long gone. Labour will need to come up with something very attractive if the want to be in govt.
They know it. They’re not that stupid.

There are around 6 A class roads, including the M6 that cross the border and maybe double that as B or C roads. If we need infrastructure at the border at all, I'm sure it could be done electronically.

[JeMeSouviens]

If I were the SNP and an Indyref was off the table I’d push for Scotland to get the same deal as NI. In the SM and CU. Would mean a bit of infrastructure at the border but would be well worth it and it’s only a couple of roads. Takes border out the Irish Sea so they are happy (as happy as they ever get, I suppose).
There would also need to be proper devolution of all taxes.
Anyone think SNP voters want the party to just vote for any party in London without getting major concessions for Scotland must have rocks in their head. The days where we think all we have is a choice between Tories and Starmers Tory light have long gone. Labour will need to come up with something very attractive if the want to be in govt.
They know it. They’re not that stupid.

The EU (apart from Ireland) don't like the protocol because it opens up potential holes in the integrity of the single market. The Irish managed to pull off a great deal for themselves (and NI) using the leverage of the Good Friday agreement. Obviously peace is a big deal but the economic benefits wouldn't have escaped them either.

No chance for us, there's no friendly government looking after our interests. :rolleyes:

[degenerated]

There are around 6 A class roads, including the M6 that cross the border and maybe double that as B or C roads. If we need infrastructure at the border at all, I'm sure it could be done electronically.Didn't labour promise to put guards on the border?

[Smartie]

Didn't labour promise to put guards on the border?

Border guards to keep the scrounging Scots out would probably go down quite well in Red Wall areas, so I wouldn't rule it out.

[Bristolhibby]

Border guards to keep the scrounging Scots out would probably go down quite well in Red Wall areas, so I wouldn't rule it out.

Travel up on my Scottish passport and back on my British one.

“Straight through Bristolhibby!”

J

[Stairway 2 7]

Tony_Diver
·

In other news (!) I understand Durham Police met with the Crown Prosecution Service earlier this afternoon to discuss whether Keir Starmer will be fined over beergate

[Hibbyradge]

In no world are the Tory's offering IndyRef2, although stranger things have happened I guess.

If they keep Labour out of power that means they are keeping the Tory's in power. If Labour have the most seats but not an overall majority then they do as I say, vote for us or vote for the Tory's...what you going to do Nicola Sturgeon, vote for the Tory's?

If they abstained and it forced another election which gave the Tory's an overall majority then you can see the headlines already, SNP give power back to the Tory's.

Sure lots of scenarios but I don't think the SNP hold as many cards as is being made out. The worst would be multiple hung parliaments, so the Scottish Labour message will be to get Labour an overall majority and to chuck the Tory's out of Downing Street then vote Labour, a SNP vote is a wasted vote in Scotland.

The kingmaker in a hung parliament has a lot more power than you think.

If Labour were the biggest party, but refused to give the SNP an acceptable deal, they could simply allow a minority government.

They could support Labour on a vote by vote basis.

There are all sorts of possible scenarios, each affording different options for the SNP.hf

And don't kid yourself, while it most likely won't come to that, the SNP would vote with the Tories if it was obviously in their best interests them to do so. And rightly so. While they may have principles, they're politicians, and they're not naive.

Winning independence for Scotland is the big prize and they're not going to let party politics stand in the way of their attempts to achieve it, regardless of what might be said publicly pre GE.

[Ozyhibby]

The kingmaker in a hung parliament has a lot more power than you think.

If Labour were the biggest party, but refused to give the SNP an acceptable deal, they could simply allow a minority government.

They could support Labour on a vote by vote basis.

There are all sorts of possible scenarios, each affording different options for the SNP.hf

And don't kid yourself, while it most likely won't come to that, the SNP would vote with the Tories if it was obviously in their best interests them to do so. And rightly so. While they may have principles, they're politicians, and they're not naive.

Winning independence for Scotland is the big prize and they're not going to let party politics stand in the way of their attempts to achieve it, regardless of what might be said publicly pre GE.

That can’t be true, Anas Sarwar is telling anyone who’ll listen that the SNP will just line up as lobby fodder for Labour?


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[JeMeSouviens]

That can’t be true, Anas Sarwar is telling anyone who’ll listen that the SNP will just line up as lobby fodder for Labour?


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In that scenario, they can vote with Lab enough not to bring down a minority government while effectively abstaining to block Lab doing anything they don't particularly support and/or wring out concessions for Scotland on a vote by vote basis. Could get very frustrating for Lab.

[Bristolhibby]

In that scenario, they can vote with Lab enough not to bring down a minority government while effectively abstaining to block Lab doing anything they don't particularly support and/or wring out concessions for Scotland on a vote by vote basis. Could get very frustrating for Lab.

See the DUP in Teresa Mays last tenure.

Only difference is the DUP are swivel eyed loons and stand for practically everything I hate.

J

[stu in nottingham]

Didn't labour promise to put guards on the border?

Ed Miliband did.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28053031

[Stairway 2 7]

Hugo Gye
@HugoGye
·
11m
EXC
@theipaper


Tories trail Labour by 10 points in new
@BMGResearch
poll - taken even before the current chaos erupted.

Shows Starmer is potentially on course for a majority - pending Durham Police, and events in the Conservative party.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-10-point-lead-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-approval-1725579

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer starts by wishing England well in the euros but not NI.[emoji849]


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[Hibernian Verse]

Starmer starts by wishing England well in the euros but not NI.[emoji849]


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There's a four letter word rhyming with bank that you could use to describe him.

[degenerated]

There's a four letter word rhyming with bank that you could use to describe him.You're right there. 26002

[He's here!]

Tony_Diver
·

In other news (!) I understand Durham Police met with the Crown Prosecution Service earlier this afternoon to discuss whether Keir Starmer will be fined over beergate

Wonder what odds you'd get on Johnson and Starmer resigning on the same day.

[Jones28]

You're right there. 26002

Thats a vote winner for labour in Scotland - you know, the same Scotland that's dominated by the SNP.

[stokesmessiah]

Starmer cleared over “beergate”

[Moulin Yarns]

Starmer cleared over “beergate”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62095955

.

[He's here!]

Starmer cleared over “beergate”

It's hard to know whether this is good or bad news for Labour. Yes they can claim the moral high ground but it also guarantees that bar some unforeseen calamity Starmer will lead them into the next General Election.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's hard to know whether this is good or bad news for Labour. Yes they can claim the moral high ground but it also guarantees that bar some unforeseen calamity Starmer will lead them into the next General Election.

Bad.

There was at least as much moral high ground in Starmer going "honourably" and now they're stuck with him as you say.

[ronaldo7]

I see he reiterated his stance on no deals with the SNP, before or after a GE.

Hell mend him.

[hibsbollah]

It's hard to know whether this is good or bad news for Labour. Yes they can claim the moral high ground but it also guarantees that bar some unforeseen calamity Starmer will lead them into the next General Election.

Bad. 28 approve 54 disapprove of how he’s doing as leader. He was just as unpopular as Boris until this week when BJs disapproval went to 71%, but broadly speaking the public have been disliking them both equally as much for ages.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/keir-starmer-approval-rating

[Just Alf]

I see he reiterated his stance on no deals with the SNP, before or after a GE.

Hell mend him.I'm amazed no interviewer follows up with 'but you seem happy to negotiate deals with Conervatives in Edinburgh for example?'

actually, maybe I shouldn't be amazed, seems.a.lot of double standards these days .

[ronaldo7]

I'm amazed no interviewer follows up with 'but you seem happy to negotiate deals with Conervatives in Edinburgh for example?'

actually, maybe I shouldn't be amazed, seems.a.lot of double standards these days .

They're happy to put cash into tory party members bank accounts by voting them into positions of power all over Scotland, but mention doing a deal with the SNP, and they run for the hills. The 4th estate have shown themselves inadequate when it comes to getting to the truth or holding politicians feet to the fire.

It also stems from positions of power within the British establishment in places like the BBC.

You only have to look at those in power in that institution to see.

[Jack]

I'm amazed no interviewer follows up with 'but you seem happy to negotiate deals with Conervatives in Edinburgh for example?'

actually, maybe I shouldn't be amazed, seems.a.lot of double standards these days .

You'd have to give him English examples of this happening. I'm not entirely sure Starmer gives a flying thingy about what happens in Scotland.

[Bostonhibby]

Bad. 28 approve 54 disapprove of how he’s doing as leader. He was just as unpopular as Boris until this week when BJs disapproval went to 71%, but broadly speaking the public have been disliking them both equally as much for ages.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/keir-starmer-approval-ratingHe should follow Bozo and the clown prince Sunak's example and get himself a conviction or two, very popular at grass roots level it seems.

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[Moulin Yarns]

He should follow Bozo and the clown prince Sunak's example and get himself a conviction or two, very popular at grass roots level it seems.

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A particular song from Oliver Twist jumped into my head.

You gotta get a conviction or two 😂

[lucky]

They're happy to put cash into tory party members bank accounts by voting them into positions of power all over Scotland, but mention doing a deal with the SNP, and they run for the hills. The 4th estate have shown themselves inadequate when it comes to getting to the truth or holding politicians feet to the fire.

It also stems from positions of power within the British establishment in places like the BBC.

You only have to look at those in power in that institution to see.

Local council agreements won’t register anywhere in the U.K. political picture. Come the next general election it will be either a Labour or Tory PM. The SNP will do well in Scotland but won’t win the election in the U.K. If no party has an overall majority the SNP will have a choice to make and that is either back Labour or allow the Tories back in. I’m not sure the people of Scotland would be forgiving if they allowed the Tories back in.

I don’t think either party would support a section 30 request. The Tories because of the unionist support and Labour because it would likely mean a Tory government again. The reality is that the right to hold a referendum should be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and that maybe that’s a deal that can be done. Then the next Scottish Parliamentary election could be fought on that issue and if the majority of MSPs wanted to hold a referendum then so be it.

[ronaldo7]

Local council agreements won’t register anywhere in the U.K. political picture. Come the next general election it will be either a Labour or Tory PM. The SNP will do well in Scotland but won’t win the election in the U.K. If no party has an overall majority the SNP will have a choice to make and that is either back Labour or allow the Tories back in. I’m not sure the people of Scotland would be forgiving if they allowed the Tories back in.

I don’t think either party would support a section 30 request. The Tories because of the unionist support and Labour because it would likely mean a Tory government again. The reality is that the right to hold a referendum should be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and that maybe that’s a deal that can be done. Then the next Scottish Parliamentary election could be fought on that issue and if the majority of MSPs wanted to hold a referendum then so be it.

Disagree with your first sentence, it's already registered in Scotland.

On your substantive point on what the SNP have to do...back labour or let the Tories in. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.

Unless a prospective PM "has the confidence of the house", either through their own majority, or as a coalition, they don't get to be PM.

This could result in the incumbent tory PM Staying on, as no replacement can be found.

Thems the rules Im afraid.

Sir Keir, has already said no deals with the SNP, before or after, so this is on him really.

[Since90+2]

When was the last time a leader at Westminster had a good approval rating?

Sturgeon has one as she has a cult like following and some of her supporters literally think she can do no wrong.

Starmer will win Labour the next election.

[Ozyhibby]

When was the last time a leader at Westminster had a good approval rating?

Sturgeon has one as she has a cult like following and some of her supporters literally think she can do no wrong.

Starmer will win Labour the next election.

Or maybe Sturgeon has one because she is doing a good job and she is popular?


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[marinello59]

Or maybe Sturgeon has one because she is doing a good job and she is popular?


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Sturgeon is certainly popular with her own party faithful but doing a good job? A slightly less worse job than Westminster at best. How depressing is that?

[ronaldo7]

Labour party thread goes all SNP.

Depressing.

[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon is certainly popular with her own party faithful but doing a good job? A slightly less worse job than Westminster at best. How depressing is that?

In your opinion.


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[marinello59]

In your opinion.


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I think that’s how it works , it’s all opinion on here. :greengrin

[Just_Jimmy]

When was the last time a leader at Westminster had a good approval rating?

Sturgeon has one as she has a cult like following and some of her supporters literally think she can do no wrong.

Starmer will win Labour the next election.I live in England and I doubt it. Even after all that, plenty think that poor Boris was a victim of a witch hunt.

If the Tories win the next election then the game is up but I think they will.

I'll say that if they don't, it'll be by default rather than Starmer "winning". I like him and I want him to kick on and lead but I feel that he's too passive.

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[Just_Jimmy]

In your opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd that of many people. The simple fact is there's not enough political competition in Scotland now and long term governments become stale.

However, I'd rather live under the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon than under the Tories that's for sure.

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[ronaldo7]

I think most of us knew what's been going on, just some late arrivals to get the message.

Siobhain McDonagh let’s the cat out the bag. Anas Sarwar pretends to despise Tories when in fact he’s collaborating with them to lock out SNP.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1546828342317432842

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Labour party thread goes all SNP.

Depressing.

Indeed. The SNP are far more worried about Labour getting their act together than the Tories are.

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed. The SNP are far more worried about Labour getting their act together than the Tories are.

Lucky for them, it’s not looking likely.[emoji23]


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Lucky for them, it’s not looking likely.[emoji23]


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Perhaps. Still true though.

[Ozyhibby]

I think most of us knew what's been going on, just some late arrivals to get the message.

Siobhain McDonagh let’s the cat out the bag. Anas Sarwar pretends to despise Tories when in fact he’s collaborating with them to lock out SNP.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1546828342317432842

That’s outrageous.[emoji35]


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[hibsbollah]

Rachel Reeves promises 'ironclad discipline' with the public finances, (what's harder than ironclad? Platinum-clad maybe?) In a further move away from the Mick Lynch agenda. Will be interesting in these times of 11%+ inflation and 20%+ food price increases whether this position remains justifiable, or evenelectorally sensible?

If you work in English local govt and want a pay rise, the sad truth is Sunak sounds like your best bet.