The future of the Labour Party

[Bostonhibby]

I think every British party will endorse buying British, why wouldn't they :confused:Not very much to buy?

Aston Martin's all round could be an option, at least if one was lucky enough to get ones snout in the PPE trough early enough.



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[Crunchie]

And if every country did that then that would be terrible for Scottish business.


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Aye ok then Oz, let me know what quantity of Scottish produce you'd like us all to buy then :aok:

[Smartie]

I think every British party will endorse buying British, why wouldn't they :confused:

Because protectionism doesn’t work and never has.

[Crunchie]

Because protectionism doesn’t work and never has.

Nor does communism but you still get people supporting it. I like buying British and I'll continue to do so tyvm.

[Jack]

Not very much to buy?

Aston Martin's all round could be an option, at least if one was lucky enough to get ones snout in the PPE trough early enough.



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Aston Martin are Canadian owned.

[Bostonhibby]

Aston Martin are Canadian owned.B**ger, guess it'll just have to be good old Lincolnshire turnips or sugar beet for me, if the farmers can tempt anyone to pick them.[emoji6]

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[Just Alf]

Aston Martin are Canadian owned.Bring back the Hillman Imp!

[hibsbollah]

British jobs for British workers. Where have I heard that before. 😂

What Broony actually said was ‘British jobs for British workers’ but simultaneously ‘no to protectionism’ in the same day:dunno: which was just a classic example of him trying to ride two horses at the same time.

[Jack]

Bring back the Hillman Imp!

They would now be part of Chrysler Europe.

[Moulin Yarns]

Aye ok then Oz, let me know what quantity of Scottish produce you'd like us all to buy then :aok:

Oz has a point, if any country said that you could only buy produce from their own country every country would have limited food for example. We don't all want to eat a limited diet of salmon, Lanarkshire blue and whisky. 🤔😉

Scrap that, I'm all for it 😁

[Kato]

Oz has a point, if any country said that you could only buy produce from their own country every country would have limited food for example. We don't all want to eat a limited diet of salmon, Lanarkshire blue and whisky. 🤔😉

Scrap that, I'm all for it 😁

The UK would starve.

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK would starve.

Dig for victory.


3 word slogans rule 😉

[neil7908]

Trevor Phillips readmitted to the Labour Party on the sly, without any public apology:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/06/labour-lifts-trevor-phillips-suspension-for-alleged-islamophobia

So zero tolerance for anti semitism but some tolerance for Islamaphobia is the new Labour policy I guess?

[Keith_M]

We badly need immigration in Scotland so I can understand if they did that. We have less kids than the rest of the UK. Hopefully we can get free movement of eu citizens back. Lots of good young workers in who have lots of kids.


Well, Yes and No.


I realise I'm going to get stick for this but here goes...

I was walking along Victoria Road in Glasgow yesterday and there was a load of bags and stuff outside a building where it looked like there had been a forced eviction. Within minutes, a large group of Roma... including kids... suddenly appeared and were ripping open the carrier bags and taking all the junk like some mad group of seagulls.

The mess they left, just like in the streets they live, was just unbelievable.

If they were productive members of society, with useful skills and willing to work in normal jobs, then I'd welcome them with open arms. Sadly the vast majority of them seem to be anything but and don't look like changing anytime soon.

My experience of them in Munich was much worse (where they were involved in begging and masses of violent crimes), despite the state of Bavaria making massive efforts to offer education and training as a way into normal jobs and normal life.

[Just Alf]

Well, Yes and No.


I realise I'm going to get stick for this but here goes...

I was walking along Victoria Road in Glasgow yesterday and there was a load of bags and stuff outside a building where it looked like there had been a forced eviction. Within minutes, a large group of Roma... including kids... suddenly appeared and were ripping open the carrier bags and taking all the junk like some mad group of seagulls.

The mess they left, just like in the streets they live, was just unbelievable.

If they were productive members of society, with useful skills and willing to work in normal jobs, then I'd welcome them with open arms. Sadly the vast majority of them seem to be anything but and don't look like changing anytime soon.

My experience of them in Munich was much worse (where they were involved in begging and masses of violent crimes), despite the state of Bavaria making massive efforts to offer education and training as a way into normal jobs and normal life.

I've seen exactly that in Edinburgh, I've even seen 'them' getting off the bus at White Park in Gorgie and the next stop at the pub, ... to be fair, I work just off Easter Road and saw similar down there a while back.

I do have to say though '"the vast majority" of immigrants are totally trying to make a better place for themselves in Scotland a byproduct of which will be the government will be able to pay my pension when I retire.


Just to add there will always be scroungers:agree:

[overdrive]

I've seen exactly that in Edinburgh, I've even seen 'them' getting off the bus at White Park in Gorgie and the next stop at the pub, ... to be fair, I work just off Easter Road and saw similar down there a while back.

I do have to say though '"the vast majority" of immigrants are totally trying to make a better place for themselves in Scotland a byproduct of which will be the government will be able to pay my pension when I retire.


Just to add there will always be scroungers:agree:

It’s really bad around the George Square / Meadows area. I used to see them get dropped off in respectable clothes, change into more “raggy” clothes, beg for the day, then get picked up (back into nice clothes)

[CloudSquall]

Free movement of people was something I've seen the good and bad of and is something I struggle with in terms of being on board or not.


My mum worked in the airport and many workers from Eastern Europe worked two or three jobs for which workers could not be found, it was a hugely positive side to the free movement of trade and they integrated extremely well into airport life and the wider community.


My Dad however worked in construction where wages were severely undercut. Labourers living 6 or 7 a head to a two bedroom house didn't have the overheads a married man with a mortgage and two or three kids had and they were able to work for wages that Scottish workers had no way of matching.

[Jack]

Free movement of people was something I've seen the good and bad of and is something I struggle with in terms of being on board or not.


My mum worked in the airport and many workers from Eastern Europe worked two or three jobs for which workers could not be found, it was a hugely positive side to the free movement of trade and they integrated extremely well into airport life and the wider community.


My Dad however worked in construction where wages were severely undercut. Labourers living 6 or 7 a head to a two bedroom house didn't have the overheads a married man with a mortgage and two or three kids had and they were able to work for wages that Scottish workers had no way of matching.

I think your Dad's problem was with dodgy employers cutting wages rather than immigrants, who I assume were here legally.

[Ozyhibby]

I think your Dad's problem was with dodgy employers cutting wages rather than immigrants, who I assume were here legally.

The employers could only cut the wages though because the supply of labour went from a population of about 60 million people to about 600 million people. In construction there are zero employment protections. Everyone is self employed even if they have worked for the same employer for years. They can hire and fire at will. The wages we earned in Scotland dwarfed the wages earned in Poland, Lithuania etc and suddenly they had full access to jobs in the UK. The impact was very sudden and extremely negative. Wages in the sector have barely moved since 2004. When you massively increase the supply of anything without an increase in demand then the price will fall. That’s what happened to construction wages and it hasn’t recovered since.


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[CloudSquall]

I think your Dad's problem was with dodgy employers cutting wages rather than immigrants, who I assume were here legally.

Ozyhibby summarised the situation well, I'd just add that the majority of people like my Dad put no blame on the immigrants themselves, they would have done the same in their position.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ozyhibby summarised the situation well, I'd just add that the majority of people like my Dad put no blame on the immigrants themselves, they would have done the same in their position.

As they did in the 70's and 80's. The first wave of immigrant construction workers were Italians and Turks, shortly followed by Brits onto the building sites of Holland and Germany.

[hibsbollah]

As they did in the 70's and 80's. The first wave of immigrant construction workers were Italians and Turks, shortly followed by Brits onto the building sites of Holland and Germany.

…and if we’re going further back, 175 years ago they were Irish, the original cheapest construction workforce, built the late industrial revolution, modern Edinburgh and a certain bonnie football team.

[Hibrandenburg]

…and if we’re going further back, 175 years ago they were Irish, the original cheapest construction workforce, built the late industrial revolution, modern Edinburgh and a certain bonnie football team.

:agree: I guess the importing of cheap labour is an improvement on taking slaves, which was the preferred method of getting cheap labour previously.

[JeMeSouviens]

83% of Lab members support PR according to a Yougov poll. And since you’d assume all Libs and Greens would agree, what the **** are we waiting for?

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/182617637_10223424944483912_4027500251307770332_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=1VPmwT7WYNMAX9xgJFt&_nc_oc=AQnRLU9IvasW72eJk-6B0dwqx6Yp789caRW9PshmSekgKRkjxBnmU6dHzTTLQhlt7XE&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=97a5015d274e2ce835bd74bf77982f14&oe=60FB5765

[Ozyhibby]

83% of Lab members support PR according to a Yougov poll. And since you’d assume all Libs and Greens would agree, what the **** are we waiting for?

First past the post is all that is holding the Labour Party together. While PR might be good for progressive politics it would be bad for all the people who work for the Labour Party and all the mp’s. The party needs first past the post.


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[Hiber-nation]

A real eye opener of an appearance on Politics Live by Rosie Duffield in which she played nodding dog to the Tory panelist. If I hadn't recognised her I'd have been 100% convinced she was a Tory.

[JeMeSouviens]

First past the post is all that is holding the Labour Party together. While PR might be good for progressive politics it would be bad for all the people who work for the Labour Party and all the mp’s. The party needs first past the post.


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If they just want to be the opposition for ever, knock themselves out. :rolleyes:

[Crunchie]

A real eye opener of an appearance on Politics Live by Rosie Duffield in which she played nodding dog to the Tory panelist. If I hadn't recognised her I'd have been 100% convinced she was a Tory.
The woke brigade will be up in arms she used the phrase nitty gritty.

[CloudSquall]

A real eye opener of an appearance on Politics Live by Rosie Duffield in which she played nodding dog to the Tory panelist. If I hadn't recognised her I'd have been 100% convinced she was a Tory.

At what point do they actually oppose something?

If they had been the opposition to Trump they would've backed the wall out of fear of being seen as left wing.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210721/498121d679ac7a6ea7c18721eac13cb2.jpg
Much better news for Labour. Imagine there were no Lib Dem’s? Might be able to form a progressive govt. There are Lib Dem’s though and with first past the post, the Tories will remain safe.


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[Hiber-nation]

The woke brigade will be up in arms she used the phrase nitty gritty.

I don't recognise the phrase "woke brigade" and I'm afraid I've no idea what you're on about re the nitty gritty comment.

[Since90+2]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210721/498121d679ac7a6ea7c18721eac13cb2.jpg
Much better news for Labour. Imagine there were no Lib Dem’s? Might be able to form a progressive govt. There are Lib Dem’s though and with first past the post, the Tories will remain safe.


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I genuinely have no idea who votes for lib Dems. Soft Tories?

[Ozyhibby]

I genuinely have no idea who votes for lib Dems. Soft Tories?

I think it’s like all the unionists up here who claim not to vote Tory but then the Tories are the most popular unionist party the day after the election. People don’t like to tell you when they are a bit embarrassed.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I genuinely have no idea who votes for lib Dems. Soft Tories?

It's partly a very old residual Liberal vote, especially in far flung rural spots like Devon/Cornwall and the Northern Isles.

[hibsbollah]

It's partly a very old residual Liberal vote, especially in far flung rural spots like Devon/Cornwall and the Northern Isles.

Not any more in Cornwall/Devon sadly, solidly blue. That area is becoming more Tory as the rich retire out to their holiday homes and price out the young and those with kids, despite high levels of overall deprivation similar to places like Merseyside. In fact Cornwall has probably got a better economic case for increased devolution than Scotland does :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Not any more in Cornwall/Devon sadly, solidly blue. That area is becoming more Tory as the rich retire out to their holiday homes and price out the young and those with kids, despite high levels of overall deprivation similar to places like Merseyside. In fact Cornwall has probably got a better economic case for increased devolution than Scotland does :greengrin

Yeah, the Libs are (literally) dying everywhere, but they still get about 20% of the vote down in the SW, it's much better for them than average.

[CloudSquall]

I genuinely have no idea who votes for lib Dems. Soft Tories?


NE Fife and Islander weirdos, "honestly I'm really not a Tory" Swinson types in East DunBahhhhtunshire, and the complete and utter total knobs that populate Edinburgh West suburbs like Balerno*.


*I went to school there so I'm completely qualified to offend in this case :agree::greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

NE Fife and Islander weirdos, "honestly I'm really not a Tory" Swinson types in East DunBahhhhtunshire, and the complete and utter total knobs that populate Edinburgh West suburbs like Balerno*.


*I went to school there so I'm completely qualified to offend in this case :agree::greengrin

The whole of the Deanpark scheme will be up in arms at that comment 😂

[Santa Cruz]

NE Fife and Islander weirdos, "honestly I'm really not a Tory" Swinson types in East DunBahhhhtunshire, and the complete and utter total knobs that populate Edinburgh West suburbs like Balerno*.


*I went to school there so I'm completely qualified to offend in this case :agree::greengrin

Is East Dunbartonshire not an SNP seat?

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217627045_309193990989893_8961944578936823748_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QMo6nSoPss0AX9W_axL&tn=5m7pnQZ1SlTC4D2w&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bad81588faa9a77fb311be857073dd04&oe=60FD3BD3

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/219450242_4534323559935453_8977224124835849730_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=ePN1rZvOa1AAX9QF6sf&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c328f7339fb32d6783712b8fd21c9815&oe=60FD5CAF



the Sir Starmer effect

[ronaldo7]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217627045_309193990989893_8961944578936823748_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QMo6nSoPss0AX9W_axL&tn=5m7pnQZ1SlTC4D2w&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bad81588faa9a77fb311be857073dd04&oe=60FD3BD3

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/219450242_4534323559935453_8977224124835849730_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=ePN1rZvOa1AAX9QF6sf&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c328f7339fb32d6783712b8fd21c9815&oe=60FD5CAF



the Sir Starmer effect

We need to know where it's all gone. Isn't that the way these days. 🙅

[wookie70]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217627045_309193990989893_8961944578936823748_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QMo6nSoPss0AX9W_axL&tn=5m7pnQZ1SlTC4D2w&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bad81588faa9a77fb311be857073dd04&oe=60FD3BD3

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/219450242_4534323559935453_8977224124835849730_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=ePN1rZvOa1AAX9QF6sf&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c328f7339fb32d6783712b8fd21c9815&oe=60FD5CAF



the Sir Starmer effect

Acting like a Tory Lite Party isn't good for party funds, who would have guessed.

[cabbageandribs1875]

We need to know where it's all gone. Isn't that the way these days. ��


Acting like a Tory Lite Party isn't good for party funds, who would have guessed.

unfortunately post disappeared again, sigh..ah well


here's another one, the Sir Keef Starmer effect part 2141456817

JmRoyle #YNWA #BLM on Twitter: "Starmer has completely lost the plot: Ken Loach to be expelled from Labour Party." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/MyArrse/status/1419695234074791945?s=19&fbclid=IwAR3FhI1xs7pTAoGeKArHucWh6pT3ZJBZW2P_V3MtK sFnrnbPVfmkinIo4AQ)

and for the 278th time, i say...Sir Starmer was a big big mistake :greengrin



Astonishing thread pulls together five years of Labour right sabotage and war to destroy Corbyn and the left – SKWAWKBOX (https://skwawkbox.org/2021/07/24/astonishing-thread-pulls-together-five-years-of-labour-right-sabotage-and-war-to-destroy-corbyn-and-the-left/?fbclid=IwAR3ETaL7vPtvtXlRcE3sxxEj2n7MgaowQgXMjlSb 9Rs6oqhBoXfoUIymj8s)

[ronaldo7]

unfortunately post disappeared again, sigh..ah well


here's another one, the Sir Keef Starmer effect part 2141456817

JmRoyle #YNWA #BLM on Twitter: "Starmer has completely lost the plot: Ken Loach to be expelled from Labour Party." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/MyArrse/status/1419695234074791945?s=19&fbclid=IwAR3FhI1xs7pTAoGeKArHucWh6pT3ZJBZW2P_V3MtK sFnrnbPVfmkinIo4AQ)

and for the 278th time, i say...Sir Starmer was a big big mistake :greengrin



Astonishing thread pulls together five years of Labour right sabotage and war to destroy Corbyn and the left – SKWAWKBOX (https://skwawkbox.org/2021/07/24/astonishing-thread-pulls-together-five-years-of-labour-right-sabotage-and-war-to-destroy-corbyn-and-the-left/?fbclid=IwAR3ETaL7vPtvtXlRcE3sxxEj2n7MgaowQgXMjlSb 9Rs6oqhBoXfoUIymj8s)

I thought he was coming in to heal the wounds. A broad church it is not if they expel ken Loach.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/modernuklabour/status/1421416425432965120?s=21

He’s not wrong.


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[neil7908]

https://twitter.com/modernuklabour/status/1421416425432965120?s=21

He’s not wrong.


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Possibly. But if you've voted full fat Tory, why would you go Tory lite? Especially with issues like Brexit?

[Ozyhibby]

I see Labour have just come out in favour of ending Oil and Gas extraction. Big move.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I see Labour have just come out in favour of ending Oil and Gas extraction. Big move.


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Worried about being overtaken by the Scottish Green Party :wink: Next thing they'll be calling for a referendum on Scottish Independence :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I see Labour have just come out in favour of ending Oil and Gas extraction. Big move.


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It’s just one of the main planks of 2019s Green New Deal, originally drawn up by Rebecca Long Bailey and repackaged without the ‘baggage’. Important policy which needs to be sold as being economically beneficial for the sector in the long term.

[Ozyhibby]

Worried about being overtaken by the Scottish Green Party :wink: Next thing they'll be calling for a referendum on Scottish Independence :greengrin

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1423282360573829129?s=21


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[Jack]

I see Labour have just come out in favour of ending Oil and Gas extraction. Big move.


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I think Labour are going the same way as the, now irrelevant, Libdems. They know they can promise whatever they like knowing full well they'll never be in power to implement it.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1423282360573829129?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOfcourse not. And after that there will be another reason not to have it in the next parliament

Continue ad infinitum

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[The_Exile]

Labour are almost a complete irrelevance. Does anybody know what demographic they are even TRYING to represent?

Young voters (a constantly growing cohort rather than a constantly dying one) are much more green aware so the usual suspects will be even more of an irrelevance within the next couple of decades.

[ardecos]

NE Fife and Islander weirdos, "honestly I'm really not a Tory" Swinson types in East DunBahhhhtunshire, and the complete and utter total knobs that populate Edinburgh West suburbs like Balerno*.


*I went to school there so I'm completely qualified to offend in this case :agree::greengrin

In that case you should know that Balerno is not in Edinburgh West. It is in Edinburgh Southwest, Joanna Cherry territory.

[Northernhibee]

I think Labour are going the same way as the, now irrelevant, Libdems. They know they can promise whatever they like knowing full well they'll never be in power to implement it.

I wouldn’t be so sure. The last Survation poll had Labour only two points behind the Tories and although most polls had a difference of between four to six points, it’s slowly moving in the right direction in terms of the gap.

If I had to put a tenner and a chocolate biscuit on who’s forming the next Westminster government, I’d be saying Labour. Once Brexit reality can’t be written off as a “temporary glitch” you’ll see enough people change their minds.

[He's here!]

I wouldn’t be so sure. The last Survation poll had Labour only two points behind the Tories and although most polls had a difference of between four to six points, it’s slowly moving in the right direction in terms of the gap.

If I had to put a tenner and a chocolate biscuit on who’s forming the next Westminster government, I’d be saying Labour. Once Brexit reality can’t be written off as a “temporary glitch” you’ll see enough people change their minds.

Hope so as that would mean they'd turned things around in Scotland (they'll never win a general election with only one Scottish seat). At present that's hard to imagine though.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wouldn’t be so sure. The last Survation poll had Labour only two points behind the Tories and although most polls had a difference of between four to six points, it’s slowly moving in the right direction in terms of the gap.

If I had to put a tenner and a chocolate biscuit on who’s forming the next Westminster government, I’d be saying Labour. Once Brexit reality can’t be written off as a “temporary glitch” you’ll see enough people change their minds.

Admire your optimism but don't share it, sadly. The worst polling stat of all is that Johnson leads Starmer in "best PM" questions by about 20% on average. It's soul destroyingly awful.

[Smartie]

Admire your optimism but don't share it, sadly. The worst polling stat of all is that Johnson leads Starmer in "best PM" questions by about 20% on average. It's soul destroyingly awful.

Starmer is soul destroyingly awful though, he's just not quite as bad as Johnson.

I could see the Tories losing patience with Johnson over the next few years. Bluff and bluster will only ever get you so far - at some point you need to have a bit of substance.

Whilst I don't see Labour turning around Scotland initially, I could just about see England turning on Johnson and the Tories.

And if that were to happen, independence doesn't then seem to be as essential as it does right now...

:tin hat:

[JeMeSouviens]

Starmer is soul destroyingly awful though, he's just not quite as bad as Johnson.

I could see the Tories losing patience with Johnson over the next few years. Bluff and bluster will only ever get you so far - at some point you need to have a bit of substance.

Whilst I don't see Labour turning around Scotland initially, I could just about see England turning on Johnson and the Tories.

And if that were to happen, independence doesn't then seem to be as essential as it does right now...

:tin hat:

I sort of agree, but without further change we'd just need the desperate escape hatch a few years down the line.

The single biggest thing Unionists could do to underpin the Union (imo) would be to introduce electoral reform at Westminster. Not just the fact that Lab+Lib+Grn would have a chance at forming coalitions. Stopping the Tories being able to do wtf they like on 40% of the vote would be a big win. It would push the whole UK Overton window in the correct (right but not right :greengrin) direction and force Conservatism to come up with a much more sensible offer.

[Hibrandenburg]

Starmer is soul destroyingly awful though, he's just not quite as bad as Johnson.

I could see the Tories losing patience with Johnson over the next few years. Bluff and bluster will only ever get you so far - at some point you need to have a bit of substance.

Whilst I don't see Labour turning around Scotland initially, I could just about see England turning on Johnson and the Tories.

And if that were to happen, independence doesn't then seem to be as essential as it does right now...

:tin hat:

No, and that's what has kept us part of the UK since at least I was born. However the next Labour government is just another false dawn and stopgap before the next Etonian Tory government.

[Northernhibee]

I’d be interested to see what happens up here if it looks as if we might be able to get rid of the Tories.

I tend to think the SNP would offer to support Labour in some way or another - even on a vote by vote basis - in return for a binding second referendum.

Rampant sleaze and incompetence seen England turn on the Tories last time.

[Kato]

Rampant sleaze and incompetence seen England turn on the Tories last time.

It was the widespread reporting and coverage of the rampant sleaze and incompetence that saw England reject the Tories. That style of coverage isn't happening this time around and the reporting which does come around doesn't stick around more than 2 days.

Some Tory supporters revel in their Govt's sleaze or fob it off as "every Govt does it", which was a repeated claim by one Tory on here.



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[Ozyhibby]

It was the widespread reporting and coverage of the rampant sleaze and incompetence that saw England reject the Tories. That style of coverage isn't happening this time around and the reporting which does come around doesn't stick around more than 2 days.

Some Tory supporters revel in their Govt's sleaze or fob it off as "every Govt does it", which was a repeated claim by one Tory on here.



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And there is no Tony Blair on the horizon that would be acceptable to English voters.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/cop26-scottish-labour-demand-nicola-sturgeon-oppose-cambo-oil-field-following-ippc-report-3339119

I agree with Scottish Labour on this. We can’t just keep carrying on as we have been. Eventually we need to stop just setting targets and take some action.


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[Crunchie]

[QUOTE=Kato;6649736]It was the widespread reporting and coverage of the rampant sleaze and incompetence that saw England reject the Tories. That style of coverage isn't happening this time around and the reporting which does come around doesn't stick around more than 2 days.

Some Tory supporters revel in their Govt's sleaze or fob it off as "every Govt does it", which was a repeated claim by one Tory on here.

There are very few politicians nowadays from across all parties who will not be in it for themselves despite the front.
I'll give you Lord and Lady Kinnock those bastions of socialism and fierce critics of the upper house all their lives ( until they were offered a peerage that was ). Those 2 and their family have made millions from the EU gravy train and don't tell me that was all above board.

[Kato]

[QUOTE=Kato;6649736]It was the widespread reporting and coverage of the rampant sleaze and incompetence that saw England reject the Tories. That style of coverage isn't happening this time around and the reporting which does come around doesn't stick around more than 2 days.

Some Tory supporters revel in their Govt's sleaze or fob it off as "every Govt does it", which was a repeated claim by one Tory on here.

There are very few politicians nowadays from across all parties who will not be in it for themselves despite the front.
I'll give you Lord and Lady Kinnock those bastions of socialism and fierce critics of the upper house all their lives ( until they were offered a peerage that was ). Those 2 and their family have made millions from the EU gravy train and don't tell me that was all above board.

I thought you were ignoring me?

Anyway you've gone straight towards proving exactly what I'm saying, thanks.

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[Crunchie]

[QUOTE=Crunchie;6650544]

I thought you were ignoring me?

Anyway you've gone straight towards proving exactly what I'm saying, thanks.

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My pleasure :aok:

[The Modfather]

I wouldn’t be so sure. The last Survation poll had Labour only two points behind the Tories and although most polls had a difference of between four to six points, it’s slowly moving in the right direction in terms of the gap.

If I had to put a tenner and a chocolate biscuit on who’s forming the next Westminster government, I’d be saying Labour. Once Brexit reality can’t be written off as a “temporary glitch” you’ll see enough people change their minds.

Labour will need to come up with a detailed plan and vision if they are to get my vote. Plenty of other parties to vote for who are not the Tories. Are the Monster Raving Loony Party still around? They’re as serious and trustworthy as anyone these days 😀

Maybe if Labour had strongly opposed Brexit they could ride that ticket, but Corbyn was as non committal as he could be and tried to ride both horses out of self interest as long as he could IMO. They have the same problems as the union, picking out the negatives of the other side is easy, putting forward their own positive case and plan of what will be different is the bit they will struggle with.

[hibsbollah]

The future of the Labour Party will be without Ken Loach, expelled for his membership of the Labour Members Against the Witch-hunt group.

[ronaldo7]

The future of the Labour Party will be without Ken Loach, expelled for his membership of the Labour Members Against the Witch-hunt group.

Brilliant... Ken Loach refuses the OBE, is expelled by the leader, and a knight of the realm, in the "Labour" party.

The UK is ****ed.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour HQ have emailed all party members, advising them not to watch I, Daniel Blake under any circumstances


lol surely not but then again, that would be undemocratic

[ronaldo7]

This can't be right. Jackie Baillie would surely check the account she was tweeting. :dunno:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19530081.jackie-baillie-attack-snp-cited-fake-teacher-twitter-account/?ref=twtrec

[cabbageandribs1875]

minority north lanarkshire labour council are sooooo forward thinking, it's great glyphosate kills the pollinators though, huh ? love that cringey font with "Confirmed" though :hilarious

Twitter users mercilessly mock North Lanarkshire Labour over weedkiller row | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19530244.twitter-users-mercilessly-mock-north-lanarkshire-labour-weedkiller-row/?fbclid=IwAR0SM0XYQtkJsdmNVAlyRBe3LQVeUBMy9Qe4icq2 sYBKx_SXPiVrgNLkW40)

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh my, poor sir keef....

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/239709771_2925110677703651_272987237978694075_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=kFnggqi1doUAX9nYJPJ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=10f1bc40c1ff44abe1361b37219a39c1&oe=614A966B

[Ozyhibby]

oh my, poor sir keef....

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/239709771_2925110677703651_272987237978694075_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=kFnggqi1doUAX9nYJPJ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=10f1bc40c1ff44abe1361b37219a39c1&oe=614A966B

What do Labour stand for in Scotland that the SNP and Greens are not doing? Or if it’s support of the union then the Tories have that covered as well?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What do Labour stand for in Scotland that the SNP and Greens are not doing? Or if it’s support of the union then the Tories have that covered as well?


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55% of Scots didn't want independence. A huge percentage of the left wingers. Not my way of thinking but I know quite a few good socialists that voted no. Most said similar to the have more in common with working class liverpudlians or Londoners than upper class morningsiders

[bigwheel]

55% of Scots didn't want independence. A huge percentage of the left wingers. Not my way of thinking but I know quite a few good socialists that voted no. Most said similar to the have more in common with working class liverpudlians or Londoners than upper class morningsiders

The vote, pre Brexit, is almost incomparable with the issues of today. It Will be a significantly different yes/no debate next time around…and it’s true that the have vs have not debate will still resonate. Labour have got themselves backed into a pro union corner on it. Wonder if Scottish Labour will attempt to reset their voice.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The vote, pre Brexit, is almost incomparable with the issues of today. It Will be a significantly different yes/no debate next time around…and it’s true that the have vs have not debate will still resonate. Labour have got themselves backed into a pro union corner on it. Wonder if Scottish Labour will attempt to reset their voice.


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Do most polls still not have no ahead unfortunately

[bigwheel]

Do most polls still not have no ahead unfortunately

Certainly poll results have seen a drop in yes support …last one I saw had No ahead by 3 points

[Stairway 2 7]

Certainly poll results have seen a drop in yes support …last one I saw had No ahead by 3 points

Seems incomprehensible why no not lower after brexit

[Ozyhibby]

For Scottish Labour the Union is more important than any of their other policies. They don’t care if we have to have another 50 years of Tory dominated govt in Scotland, so long as we stay in the union. They say they want social justice, better employment rights etc but actively campaign for these powers to stay with the Tories in London. This is a party that does not know what it stands for these days.


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[bigwheel]

Seems incomprehensible why no not lower after brexit

It was reversed last year or so …when Yes was in the lead in most polls…seems to have softened as SNP have been challenged more on the economy and likely the economic uncertainty post pandemic

[CropleyWasGod]

It was reversed last year or so …when Yes was in the lead in most polls…seems to have softened as SNP have been challenged more on the economy and likely the economic uncertainty post pandemic

Yet some posters, who are against independence, tell us that there will be a post-Covid boom

I suppose it depends on what media you believe, and what your politics are. 😉

[Jack]

Seems incomprehensible why no not lower after brexit

There's a whole lot more Brexit gloom to come and a lot more serious than nae chicken fillets and milk shakes!

[Ozyhibby]

Watching Anas on the telly just now and he is making some decent points but his delivery is very poor. He seems to just drone on and on, firing out figures left right and centre but my eyes are glazing over listening to him and I’m interested in this sort of thing.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It was reversed last year or so …when Yes was in the lead in most polls…seems to have softened as SNP have been challenged more on the economy and likely the economic uncertainty post pandemic

Imo, it has reversed for 2 pandemic related reasons: vaccine procurement/rollout and UK borrowing to support furlough etc.

[ronaldo7]

For Scottish Labour the Union is more important than any of their other policies. They don’t care if we have to have another 50 years of Tory dominated govt in Scotland, so long as we stay in the union. They say they want social justice, better employment rights etc but actively campaign for these powers to stay with the Tories in London. This is a party that does not know what it stands for these days.


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With so many fans of the Rangers milling about these days, Bella are asking, Anas, and the Labour party if they associate themselves with the sectarian type openly sitting at zoom meetings with Glasgow councillors.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/09/07/whos-zoomin-who/

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/09/06/banging-the-drum/

[Ozyhibby]

With so many fans of the Rangers milling about these days, Bella are asking, Anas, and the Labour party if they associate themselves with the sectarian type openly sitting at zoom meetings with Glasgow councillors.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/09/07/whos-zoomin-who/

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/09/06/banging-the-drum/

Disgusting betrayal of what used to be Labour values by Scottish Labour. They really will sacrifice anything to protect the union.


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[Hibbyradge]

Disgusting betrayal of what used to be Labour values by Scottish Labour. They really will sacrifice anything to protect the union.


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I would imagine that Alba and the SNP would sacrifice anything and everything for independence.

[Hibbyradge]

And then this pops up in my feed;

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19565262.alba-party-kept-afloat-money-salmond-ppe-firm-loan/?ref=ebbn

[Ozyhibby]

And then this pops up in my feed;

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19565262.alba-party-kept-afloat-money-salmond-ppe-firm-loan/?ref=ebbn

The only good thing about Alba is it cleansed the SNP of the most of the nutcases within the party and their departure has put Cherry and McNeil’s gas at a peep. Good to see you giving them equivalence with Scottish Labour though.
I would hold the SNP to a much higher standard.


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[hibsbollah]

Disgusting betrayal of what used to be Labour values by Scottish Labour. They really will sacrifice anything to protect the union.


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To be fair to Scottish Labour, they can’t really police who turns up at a zoom meeting. If you are a member of the party you can attend one of these things and ask questions. They can, however, kick him out of the party if he has posted or hosted sectarian content. Unfortunately, the only people the Labour Party is kicking out of the party these days is anyone with links to….socialism.

[CropleyWasGod]

And then this pops up in my feed;

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19565262.alba-party-kept-afloat-money-salmond-ppe-firm-loan/?ref=ebbn

Any chance of posting the full article.?

[ronaldo7]

To be fair to Scottish Labour, they can’t really police who turns up at a zoom meeting. If you are a member of the party you can attend one of these things and ask questions. They can, however, kick him out of the party if he has posted or hosted sectarian content. Unfortunately, the only people the Labour Party is kicking out of the party these days is anyone with links to….socialism.

Gone are the days when the Tories hiked a tax by 10% and the Labour party went into meltdown. If you look at the messaging on here about the NI Tax increase, it's all sweetness and light.

[hibsbollah]

Gone are the days when the Tories hiked a tax by 10% and the Labour party went into meltdown. If you look at the messaging on here about the NI Tax increase, it's all sweetness and light.

Starmer did fine at PMQs today. Was nice and aggressive. Until Bawjaws saw the opportunity to attack him back by asking him how Labour would fund it. Corbyn proposed free personal care under a National Care Service, all caters paid a living wage of £10 and a doubling of those entitled to state provision. A big threat to the care homes system who are making billions. You can argue the wisdom of that policy(personally I loved it), but it was at least there to be shot at. The suspicion, sadly, is Starmers policy wouldn’t be too much different from Johnson’s. Basically, the care crisis is due to one thing, selfishness and greed. Without addressing that, and putting the needs of the old person first, it will never be solved.

[JeMeSouviens]

I see that the new "Health and Social Care Levy" will have the same regressive quality as NI, ie. the rate falls away to a weeny 2% above £50K. And of course, it's only paid on earned income, not savings and dividends. Ideal for rich *******s. :rolleyes:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11D34/production/_120421037_ni-nc.png

[CropleyWasGod]

I see that the new "Health and Social Care Levy" will have the same regressive quality as NI, ie. the rate falls away to a weeny 2% above £50K. And of course, it's only paid on earned income, not savings and dividends. Ideal for rich *******s. :rolleyes:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11D34/production/_120421037_ni-nc.png

The rate of Income Tax on dividends is being increased by 1.25 percentage points. That's a 16.67% increase for those who are Basic Rate taxpayers.

[He's here!]

Starmer did fine at PMQs today. Was nice and aggressive. Until Bawjaws saw the opportunity to attack him back by asking him how Labour would fund it. Corbyn proposed free personal care under a National Care Service, all caters paid a living wage of £10 and a doubling of those entitled to state provision. A big threat to the care homes system who are making billions. You can argue the wisdom of that policy(personally I loved it), but it was at least there to be shot at. The suspicion, sadly, is Starmers policy wouldn’t be too much different from Johnson’s. Basically, the care crisis is due to one thing, selfishness and greed. Without addressing that, and putting the needs of the old person first, it will never be solved.

Starmer has always been too cautious since he became leader but Labour appear to have no idea how they would raise funds for the NHS backlog, which allows Johnson to bat off any criticism by simply pointing out that Starmer has no plan of his own. As you say, Starmer's problem is is that much of what the Tories are proposing is not dissimilar to New Labour/Blair commitments, which leaves Starmer with little to actually disagree with.

[Glory Lurker]

The rate of Income Tax on dividends is being increased by 1.25 percentage points. That's a 16.67% increase for those who are Basic Rate taxpayers.

I'd be interested to know how many sole occupant basic rate tax payers there are who get dividends.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd be interested to know how many sole occupant basic rate tax payers there are who get dividends.

Most small owner-managed companies work on the principle of "basic salary/high dividends".

How many are there? Don't know that, but taking contractors alone, there are more than a million.... https://www.contracteye.co.uk/contractor_numbers_uk.shtml

There is an argument to say that that sector is under-taxed. On the flip side, it got ignored by Sunak last year, so this is another kick in the teeth for them.

[ronaldo7]

Ah Anas.

https://twitter.com/OprosUK/status/1435933592559964160

[Stairway 2 7]

Only one poll but..

@PoliticsForAlI
·
25m
BREAKING: Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 35 (+1)
CON: 33 (-5)
LIB: 10 (+2)

Via
@YouGov

[Rocky]

Only one poll but..

@PoliticsForAlI
·
25m
BREAKING: Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 35 (+1)
CON: 33 (-5)
LIB: 10 (+2)

Via
@YouGov

The Tories will just send some gunboats into the English channel and it'll swing back.

[neil7908]

The Tories will just send some gunboats into the English channel and it'll swing back.

Yup. That announcement was perfect as a distraction from their looney left tax rise. God help us if they really get backed into a corner, they might start a war.

[Hibbyradge]

Any chance of posting the full article.?

Sorry, I've used all my freebies this week already.

[Hibbyradge]

I would hold the SNP to a much higher standard.


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What wouldn't the SNP sacrifice for independence?

[Hibbyradge]

Ah Anas.

https://twitter.com/OprosUK/status/1435933592559964160

Never in doubt.

Regardless of how the MSM tries to portray NS, she understandably remains popular.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that independence is still a long way off and the challenges aren't getting any easier.

The pound, a central bank, finance generally and oil are all huge issues which need resolved properly and the electorate reassured.

You guys will be closer to it, but from where I sit, another referendum just now would be lost. Mind you, apart from one guy, I'm the only person who supports independence that I know down here so maybe my "feed" is skewed.

[Hibbyradge]

Ideal for rich *******s. :rolleyes:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11D34/production/_120421037_ni-nc.png

Presumably it's also ideal for wealthy folk who aren't *******s?

[lapsedhibee]

Presumably it's also ideal for wealthy folk who aren't *******s?

It's not ideal for wealthy folk who believe in fair taxation.

[Jack]

Never in doubt.

Regardless of how the MSM tries to portray NS, she understandably remains popular.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that independence is still a long way off and the challenges aren't getting any easier.

The pound, a central bank, finance generally and oil are all huge issues which need resolved properly and the electorate reassured.

You guys will be closer to it, but from where I sit, another referendum just now would be lost. Mind you, apart from one guy, I'm the only person who supports independence that I know down here so maybe my "feed" is skewed.

These days you don't really have to say anything and if you do the more bland the better. Alternatively you can make rash promises paint them on the side of a bus and the jobs a good un!

Everyone celebrates and if it all goes pear shaped in a couple of years time nobody picks up on it!

[Hibbyradge]

It's not ideal for wealthy folk who believe in fair taxation.

I agree, but it's not ideal for anyone who believes in fair taxation.

[JeMeSouviens]

Presumably it's also ideal for wealthy folk who aren't *******s?

No, because they'd like to live in a fairer society and don't mind paying their share.

[Hibbyradge]

These days you don't really have to say anything and if you do the more bland the better. Alternatively you can make rash promises paint them on the side of a bus and the jobs a good un!

Everyone celebrates and if it all goes pear shaped in a couple of years time nobody picks up on it!

Indeed, but the serious Brexit questions never really required answering because the answers were so blindingly obvious.

Unfortunately, much for of the electorate didn't care.

The SNP faces a different electorate. Racism and xenophobia are not anywhere near the levels we saw during the Brexit referendum and the questions I highlighted can not be glossed over on the side of a bus.

Obviously there are those who don't need answers and will be happy to "fix it later" if necessary, but the MSM woll make sure they dominate the debate, again unlike how they behaved during Brexit.

[Hibbyradge]

No, because they'd like to live in a fairer society and don't mind paying their share.

Yes, agreed.

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed, but the serious Brexit questions never really required answering because the answers were so blindingly obvious.

Unfortunately, much for of the electorate didn't care.

The SNP faces a different electorate. Racism and xenophobia are not anywhere near the levels we saw during the Brexit referendum and the questions I highlighted can not be glossed over on the side of a bus.

Obviously there are those who don't need answers and will be happy to "fix it later" if necessary, but the MSM woll make sure they dominate the debate, again unlike how they behaved during Brexit.

The ability of the mainstream media to dominate debate these days is much diminished.


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[Pretty Boy]

The ability of the mainstream media to dominate debate these days is much diminished.


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Arguably less so among the demographic the SNP most have to win over though.

[hibsbollah]

Arguably less so among the demographic the SNP most have to win over though.

:agree: If you’re under 50, IT savvy and aware of how new media works, you can sometimes be under the misapprehension that the big right wing newspaper titles don’t matter to modern politics. Sadly I think they matter more and more, as they become more shrill, more intolerant and more desperate to scare their grey readership against change.

[Kato]

:agree: If you’re under 50, IT savvy and aware of how new media works you can imagine the Mail The Express The Times and The Torygraph you can sometimes be under the apprehension they don’t matter to modern politics. Sadly I think they matter more and more, as they become more shrill, more intolerant and more desperate to scare their grey readership against change.

You don't have to buy them, just go past them in any shop and even subliminally the message about the dreaded "migrants" seep in.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree: If you’re under 50, IT savvy and aware of how new media works, you can sometimes be under the misapprehension that the big right wing newspaper titles don’t matter to modern politics. Sadly I think they matter more and more, as they become more shrill, more intolerant and more desperate to scare their grey readership against change.

The good thing is, they are all losing money hand over fist and they may not all make it to the next referendum.


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[Hibbyradge]

The ability of the mainstream media to dominate debate these days is much diminished.


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Do you think so? What has happened that has changed things?

My view is that the MSM works ceaselessly, and successfully, to firstly determine the agenda and secondly, to influence their readers' opinions.

[Hibbyradge]

The good thing is, they are all losing money hand over fist and they may not all make it to the next referendum.


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You love a bit of wishful thinking, Ozy. :greengrin:

First, they have little influence and when it's pointed out that they really do, they're about to die.

Of course, neither are true.

And then we've got television...

[neil7908]

:agree: If you’re under 50, IT savvy and aware of how new media works, you can sometimes be under the misapprehension that the big right wing newspaper titles don’t matter to modern politics. Sadly I think they matter more and more, as they become more shrill, more intolerant and more desperate to scare their grey readership against change.

Have to remember as well that although they are targeted at an older audience, they are online themselves and have a very strong presence. Papers might be going the way of the dinosaur but the institutions and individuals behind them are not going anywhere.

[CloudSquall]

:agree: If you’re under 50, IT savvy and aware of how new media works, you can sometimes be under the misapprehension that the big right wing newspaper titles don’t matter to modern politics. Sadly I think they matter more and more, as they become more shrill, more intolerant and more desperate to scare their grey readership against change.

My grandparents in their 70s hold the Daily Express up there with the Bible, anything it prints is automatically taken as gospel and HAS to be true.


They've became increasingly more and more right wing and it's pretty difficult to see how to counter it with people with that age and reading habit.

[Ozyhibby]

You love a bit of wishful thinking, Ozy. :greengrin:

First, they have little influence and when it's pointed out that they really do, they're about to die.

Of course, neither are true.

And then we've got television...

A quick google search showed the Scotsman had a circulation of about 100k in 2014 and about 14k now. That has to help the Indy cause?


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[hibsbollah]

Have to remember as well that although they are targeted at an older audience, they are online themselves and have a very strong presence. Papers might be going the way of the dinosaur but the institutions and individuals behind them are not going anywhere.

Someone told me the Daily Mail was the most popular news website on the planet. I believe in terms of hit this is statistically true. Maybe mean spiritedness is our new export?? Is this what the Tories mean by Global Britain?

[Ozyhibby]

Someone told me the Daily Mail was the most popular news website on the planet. I believe in terms of hit this is statistically true. Maybe mean spiritedness is our new export?? Is this what the Tories mean by Global Britain?

I think I’ve read that before as well but it’s website is very different from its newspaper. The website is very heavy on celebrity tittle tattle while the paper is very heavy on being racist ****bags. There is a bit of overlap.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Someone told me the Daily Mail was the most popular news website on the planet. I believe in terms of hit this is statistically true. Maybe mean spiritedness is our new export?? Is this what the Tories mean by Global Britain?

BBC dwarfs the rest cnn 2nd. Daily mail is 4th depressingly but I think that's because its got us and Australian version, for your daily dose of ***** and hate

BBC 1.4 billion hits a month

cnn 800

NY Times, Daily Mail, The Guardian, Fox News, Yahoo ,Finance, WashPo, CNBC ,Express all 400 billion

[hibsbollah]

I think I’ve read that before as well but it’s website is very different from its newspaper. The website is very heavy on celebrity tittle tattle while the paper is very heavy on being racist ****bags. There is a bit of overlap.


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My favourite DM story

April 2012: The Christian Science Monitor reported that MailOnline had misused an opinion piece published in Egypt's Al-Ahram newspaper and translated into English by Al Arabiya. The original article claimed "Egypt's parliament was considering a piece of legislation sponsored by Islamists to allow men to have sex with their wives after their death." The Daily Mail, according to Monitor staff writer Dan Murphy, "distorted the original claim from a proposal to a done deal: 'Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives', the tabloid claimed, apparently having misunderstood the original Al Arabiya translation."[51]

[Hibbyradge]

A quick google search showed the Scotsman had a circulation of about 100k in 2014 and about 14k now. That has to help the Indy cause?


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Hopefully, but it isn't likely to fold though which is my point.

It would be interesting to find out how much of an online readership they have.

[Hibbyradge]

My favourite DM story

April 2012: The Christian Science Monitor reported that MailOnline had misused an opinion piece published in Egypt's Al-Ahram newspaper and translated into English by Al Arabiya. The original article claimed "Egypt's parliament was considering a piece of legislation sponsored by Islamists to allow men to have sex with their wives after their death." The Daily Mail, according to Monitor staff writer Dan Murphy, "distorted the original claim from a proposal to a done deal: 'Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives', the tabloid claimed, apparently having misunderstood the original Al Arabiya translation."[51]

Can Islamist men have sex on earth after they have died as well as with the 40 virgins waiting them in heaven?

I might convert.

This very poor gag applies to the original quote, not the Same distorted version.

[Keith_M]

My favourite DM story

April 2012: The Christian Science Monitor reported that MailOnline had misused an opinion piece published in Egypt's Al-Ahram newspaper and translated into English by Al Arabiya. The original article claimed "Egypt's parliament was considering a piece of legislation sponsored by Islamists to allow men to have sex with their wives after their death." The Daily Mail, according to Monitor staff writer Dan Murphy, "distorted the original claim from a proposal to a done deal: 'Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives', the tabloid claimed, apparently having misunderstood the original Al Arabiya translation."[51]


I get the point you're making, but the actual story is quite shocking in itself.

[hibsbollah]

I get the point you're making, but the actual story is quite shocking in itself.

Yes it is, it seemingly had no chance of ever being made law in Egypt, but just the fact that there are folk that mad in elected positions is quite sobering. (I still think if it wasn’t true the Mail would have made it up).

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210911/f74962a9243b4e740c81702451503b71.jpg

Working with the Tories is fine in Sarwar’s Scottish Labour.


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[lucky]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210911/f74962a9243b4e740c81702451503b71.jpg

Working with the Tories is fine in Sarwar’s Scottish Labour.


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Shocking decision only union delegates voted against allowing them to stand. This decision coming after appointing James Kelly as General Secretary shows Labour are still not listening and will continue to be irrelevant in Scottish politics

[Hiber-nation]

Shocking decision only union delegates voted against allowing them to stand. This decision coming after appointing James Kelly as General Secretary shows Labour are still not listening and will continue to be irrelevant in Scottish politics

I must have missed that appointment. Truly astonishing. What the hell do they think they'll achieve by it?

[ronaldo7]

I must have missed that appointment. Truly astonishing. What the hell do they think they'll achieve by it?

They won't have to have chairs at meetings.

[ronaldo7]

The Welsh branch office and Plaid Cymru are looking to work together on a cooperation deal.

Ah Anas, look what you could have won.

[Keith_M]

Yes it is, it seemingly had no chance of ever being made law in Egypt, but just the fact that there are folk that mad in elected positions is quite sobering. (I still think if it wasn’t true the Mail would have made it up).


:aok:

[Keith_M]

The Herald has quite a scathing article about Starmer...


The message is clear: Starmer isn't working (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19579961.iain-macwhirter-message-clear-starmer-isnt-working/)

[Moulin Yarns]

The Welsh branch office and Plaid Cymru are looking to work together on a cooperation deal.

Ah Anas, look what you could have won.



'Mon Welsh Labour 😉

[Hiber-nation]

I've been watching Starmer era Labour politicians in TV interviews for a while now and I honestly can't remember the last time any of them answered a question. Even the Tories have provided more straight answers which shows you how Labour are performing.

[ronaldo7]

Middlesbrough by election. Local issues puts Labour third.

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1438844755933282308

[ronaldo7]

Keir gives the Left a right hook.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-set-axe-labour-25034745?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

"Keir Starmer is aiming to tighten his grip on Labour with sweeping changes to party rules governing leadership elections, policy-making and the power base of MPs.

Under plans being put to trade union chiefs this week - ahead of the Labour Party conference in Brighton - the leadership proposes switching back to the electoral college system for electing leaders.

It would mean that any election for a new leader would see the vote split three ways between MPs, trade unions and grassroots members of Constituency Labour Parties (CLPs).

This would be a big shift away from the 'one member one vote' system which saw Jeremy Corbyn storm to power.There has been a backlash from the left, including from the powerful Unite union.

The TSSA union calling it "the sort of thing associated with Victorian Tories”.

[hibsbollah]

Keir gives the Left a right hook.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-set-axe-labour-25034745?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

"Keir Starmer is aiming to tighten his grip on Labour with sweeping changes to party rules governing leadership elections, policy-making and the power base of MPs.

Under plans being put to trade union chiefs this week - ahead of the Labour Party conference in Brighton - the leadership proposes switching back to the electoral college system for electing leaders.

It would mean that any election for a new leader would see the vote split three ways between MPs, trade unions and grassroots members of Constituency Labour Parties (CLPs).

This would be a big shift away from the 'one member one vote' system which saw Jeremy Corbyn storm to power.There has been a backlash from the left, including from the powerful Unite union.

The TSSA union calling it "the sort of thing associated with Victorian Tories”.

I really thought OMOV was here to stay. It’s also completely against what he said when he was elected. Starmer doing his best Emperor Palpatine impression.

[Jack]

Labour abstaining on the pensions triple lock vote. Another chance to show the nasty party up for what they are avoided.

Looks like Sir Keir has taken up residence on Brother Jeremy's fence.

[ronaldo7]

I really thought OMOV was here to stay. It’s also completely against what he said when he was elected. Starmer doing his best Emperor Palpatine impression.

Gets elected under the OMOV system, and then kicks it into touch when it suits him. :rolleyes:

[He's here!]

Keir gives the Left a right hook.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-set-axe-labour-25034745?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

"Keir Starmer is aiming to tighten his grip on Labour with sweeping changes to party rules governing leadership elections, policy-making and the power base of MPs.

Under plans being put to trade union chiefs this week - ahead of the Labour Party conference in Brighton - the leadership proposes switching back to the electoral college system for electing leaders.

It would mean that any election for a new leader would see the vote split three ways between MPs, trade unions and grassroots members of Constituency Labour Parties (CLPs).

This would be a big shift away from the 'one member one vote' system which saw Jeremy Corbyn storm to power.There has been a backlash from the left, including from the powerful Unite union.

The TSSA union calling it "the sort of thing associated with Victorian Tories”.

Sensible move from Starmer IMHO. Milliband carries the can for scrapping the electoral college system and ushering in the calamity of the Corbyn era which (once the initial 'Magic Grandad' facade had worn off) culminated in Labour's most humiliating election result in nearly a century. When you consider the Tories had already been in power for a decade, for them to not only retain that power but to do so with a landslide beggared belief and was a damning indictment on Labour's ineptitude under Corbyn.

I'm not saying Starmer will prove to be the answer, but he's had a hell of mess to clear up and is having to effectively reset the party.

[hibsbollah]

Sensible move from Starmer IMHO. Milliband carries the can for scrapping the electoral college system and ushering in the calamity of the Corbyn era which (once the initial 'Magic Grandad' facade had worn off) culminated in Labour's most humiliating election result in nearly a century. When you consider the Tories had already been in power for a decade, for them to not only retain that power but to do so with a landslide beggared belief and was a damning indictment on Labour's ineptitude under Corbyn.

I'm not saying Starmer will prove to be the answer, but he's had a hell of mess to clear up and is having to effectively reset the party.

You have a woeful ignorance of Labour Party history.

[He's here!]

You have a woeful ignorance of Labour Party history.

I don't think anyone needs much of a grasp of Labour Party history to point out that 2019 was their worst general election defeat in 84 years.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think anyone needs much of a grasp of Labour Party history to point out that 2019 was their worst general election defeat in 84 years.


It was more the electoral college history ignorance I was referring to.
But you are a self confessed Conservative party voter, aren’t you?
So not massively surprising.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish Labour blaming the voters again.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/96cd56855ff47db290eb095aea2ff7f4.jpg

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-conference-scots-engage-keir-25047975.amp?__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Caught some of FMQs for the first time in a long while today. Sarwar very impressive I thought. Demolished Sturgeon over the Calmac ferries shambles.

[Moulin Yarns]

Caught some of FMQs for the first time in a long while today. Sarwar very impressive I thought. Demolished Sturgeon over the Calmac ferries shambles.

Did he manage to get his monotonous voice into 2nd gear?

[Ozyhibby]

Caught some of FMQs for the first time in a long while today. Sarwar very impressive I thought. Demolished Sturgeon over the Calmac ferries shambles.

Was it enough to shift some votes from the Tories to Labour? That’s the only votes he’s competing for while he continues to put the union above everything else. While he thinks we are better off under the Tories rather than a left of centre government in an independent Scotland it will be hard to take him serious as a Labour leader.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

It was more the electoral college history ignorance I was referring to.
But you are a self confessed Conservative party voter, aren’t you?
So not massively surprising.

Milliband's legacy to Labour was to leave it with a method of electing a leader that made it all but impossible to win a general election ie handing power not to Labour MPs but to party members. Corbyn might have appealed to old-school Labour activists, but they don't reflect the ordinary electorate. Far left figures like Corbyn will always play well to those claiming to represent the party's soul, but once he was exposed as just a curmudgeonly old Commie with a hefty dollop of anti-Semitism on his shoulder the party was on the road to electoral disaster. It's all very well harking back to Labour values, but it'll never win you power.

Rather than his plans to revive the electoral college system, I'd stay Starmer currently deserves more criticism for his failure to stand up for Rosie Duffield, who has effectively been hounded out of attending the party conference by transgender activists. A sorry state of affairs, reminiscent of Jewish Labour MPs being offered bodyguards to attend the conference in recent years.

Oh, and he'll doubtless take flak for believing an 11,500 essay on his hopes and dreams for the party is going to provide much electoral cut-through:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58654046

[He's here!]

Was it enough to shift some votes from the Tories to Labour? That’s the only votes he’s competing for while he continues to put the union above everything else. While he thinks we are better off under the Tories rather than a left of centre government in an independent Scotland it will be hard to take him serious as a Labour leader.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does he really put the union above everything else? Strikes me that he reflects the views of the other half of the country who'd prefer see the Scottish government taken to task on issues that matter rather than those who indulge their incompetence by putting independence above everything else.

Whether he shifts any votes remains to be seen. I just thought he spoke well today.

[Jack]

Caught some of FMQs for the first time in a long while today. Sarwar very impressive I thought. Demolished Sturgeon over the Calmac ferries shambles.

I watched it all. He didn't do well at all and was found out for not doing his homework. (Edit. Again!)

Do we know who writes his scripts?

[ronaldo7]

Does he really put the union above everything else? Strikes me that he reflects the views of the other half of the country who'd prefer see the Scottish government taken to task on issues that matter rather than those who indulge their incompetence by putting independence above everything else.

Whether he shifts any votes remains to be seen. I just thought he spoke well today.

With the Labour party spending twice as much as your party on the 2014 referendum, he's got to get his monies worth.

[hibsbollah]

Starmer abandons electoral college reform the morning of the conference.

[heretoday]

Starmer should go. Get a nice female person in.

[Stairway 2 7]

With the biggest open goal ever of boris, brexit and covid disaster in the UK. Starmer focuses on infighting and 14,000 word essays, the man's a welt and not fit to have his first name

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scots-politicians-should-consent-to-major-decisions-on-defence?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

Some smart thinking within Labour. It will be shouted down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scots-politicians-should-consent-to-major-decisions-on-defence?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

Some smart thinking within Labour. It will be shouted down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know you don't disagree with me, but if only there was some way Scotland could be sure of it's view being respected in such matters!

I actually think this is emblematic of the pointlessness of trying to find a "third way" in the Scottish question. How would this ever, ever happen? It's dreamland stuff. Why in the name of the wee man would England allow a population of 5.4 million a sway on such things? Wake up and smell your cereal.

[Pretty Boy]

I read exerts of the Starmer 'essay' and it was just a big pile of nothing.

I was cautiously optimistic when he was 1st elected but that was misplaced. When Blair won the day by taking the centre ground and throwing in a few lefty sops it was smart politics in it's time. Many won't agree with the policies or the outcome but much like the SNP now he built an election winning machine.

That's not the way to counter the current situation now. It need something radical, genuinely socialist and set apart from the Tories. It needs to attract those who currently feel disenfranchised. Basically it needs Corbynesque policies (and I accept he isn't that radically socialist in reality) but presented by someone with less baggage and a bit of a smarter image.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/242638844_1308265699630438_8231560417007807511_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=xaDFLVYHZK0AX8RvnST&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=2fa8935d115181dbd3d64b4b169614db&oe=6176574E

in under two decades Tories and Labour will be sharing conferences :cb won't be of any concern to an independent Scotland right enough, but still

[hibsbollah]

I read exerts of the Starmer 'essay' and it was just a big pile of nothing.

I was cautiously optimistic when he was 1st elected but that was misplaced. When Blair won the day by taking the centre ground and throwing in a few lefty sops it was smart politics in it's time. Many won't agree with the policies or the outcome but much like the SNP now he built an election winning machine.

That's not the way to counter the current situation now. It need something radical, genuinely socialist and set apart from the Tories. It needs to attract those who currently feel disenfranchised. Basically it needs Corbynesque policies (and I accept he isn't that radically socialist in reality) but presented by someone with less baggage and a bit of a smarter image.

What we need;

Policies, could include…

Green New Deal
Social Care Service
Employee Rights
Universal Credit uplift made permanent
Mass House building programme
Private Sector rent controls
Inheritance Tax
Second Home owner Tax
Universal funded broadband for low income families


What we’ve got

More factional infighting. From a candidate who was elected on a programme of ending factional infighting.

[ronaldo7]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/242638844_1308265699630438_8231560417007807511_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=xaDFLVYHZK0AX8RvnST&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=2fa8935d115181dbd3d64b4b169614db&oe=6176574E

in under two decades Tories and Labour will be sharing conferences :cb won't be of any concern to an independent Scotland right enough, but still

They share plenty platforms as it is. Red to blue doesn't seem to bother some of our labour "socialists".

[Stairway 2 7]

Keir Starmer on Marr says he won’t nationalise utilities despite one of his leadership pledges being that “public services should be in public hands. Hes not sure what he wants

Opens the can of worms that is trans debate
Marr: Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Keir Starmer: “It is something that shouldn’t be said, it is not right.”

[DaveF]

Keir Starmer on Marr says he won’t nationalise utilities despite one of his leadership pledges being that “public services should be in public hands. Hes not sure what he wants

He had bit of a mare on that. Common Ownership, blah, blah...37 billion government.

[Stairway 2 7]

He had bit of a mare on that. Common Ownership, blah, blah...37 billion government.

Yep tied himself in knots

[ballengeich]

Keir Starmer on Marr says he won’t nationalise utilities despite one of his leadership pledges being that “public services should be in public hands. Hes not sure what he wants

Opens the can of worms that is trans debate
Marr: Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Keir Starmer: “It is something that shouldn’t be said, it is not right.”
The closest he came to a yes or no in response to any of the questions.

[Santa Cruz]

Keir Starmer on Marr says he won’t nationalise utilities despite one of his leadership pledges being that “public services should be in public hands. Hes not sure what he wants

Opens the can of worms that is trans debate
Marr: Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Keir Starmer: “It is something that shouldn’t be said, it is not right.”

I don't think many voters would want utilities nationalised, it would feel like a backward step. The industry got out of control, we don't need 70 energy suppliers. Is there not some middle ground to be had, maybe keeping a manageable number of no more than 10 and making OFGEM a Gov Dept with better regulation accountable to Ministers and in turn the public?

Angela Raynor, lol, her overuse of "****" she needs to work on her diplomacy skills, she's not a shop steward anymore. I like her but she won't progress in politics, certainly not a government if she doesn't change her style of delivery.

[Ozyhibby]

Keir Starmer on Marr says he won’t nationalise utilities despite one of his leadership pledges being that “public services should be in public hands. Hes not sure what he wants

Opens the can of worms that is trans debate
Marr: Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Keir Starmer: “It is something that shouldn’t be said, it is not right.”

That’s the thing with Starmer. What do he actually want to be PM for? What is it that he wants to do? I don’t think he actually knows.
He’ll survive until 2023 when he’ll lose the election. That will see Johnson safely to 2028.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

That’s the thing with Starmer. What do he actually want to be PM for? What is it that he wants to do? I don’t think he actually knows.
He’ll survive until 2023 when he’ll lose the election. That will see Johnson safely to 2028.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's too busy attacking Labour when he has an open goal with a disaster of a tory party. He must have took a lot of time writing his 14,000 word essay and it actually says nothing of note, that sums him up

[lapsedhibee]

He's too busy attacking Labour when he has an open goal with a disaster of a tory party. He must have took a lot of time writing his 14,000 word essay and it actually says nothing of note, that sums him up

Why is there almost universal reference to the number of words in his written output? I've not read it but it's almost as if the length itself marks it out as something bad. Whereas being governed by people who communicate (and, by the sound of some them, think) in 3-word slogans has worked out really well.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why is there almost universal reference to the number of words in his written output? I've not read it but it's almost as if the length itself marks it out as something bad. Whereas being governed by people who communicate in 3-word slogans has worked out really well.

Because anything over 200 words you expect it to say something. 14,000 and zero of note is ridiculous egotistical pish. The fact also that he's said about 0 words that have packed a punch attacking the most incompetent PM ever.

[He's here!]

Starmer should go. Get a nice female person in.

As long as it isn't that vile, attention-seeking eejit Raynor.

Nandy would be excellent IMHO.

[He's here!]

Starmer abandons electoral college reform the morning of the conference.

The watered down compromise still pretty much closes the door on another Corbyn and will continue to enrage the hard left when it's debated today.

[He's here!]

I've wondered before if his title counts against Starmer. Unfair if so:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58690937

[Ozyhibby]

As long as it isn't that vile, attention-seeking eejit Raynor.

Nandy would be excellent IMHO.

Cooper is still their best option. She was before Starmer and remains so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack]

All Labour need to get behind one leader. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

[Northernhibee]

As long as it isn't that vile, attention-seeking eejit Raynor.

Nandy would be excellent IMHO.

She’s great. Refusing to retract calling Johnson **** until he retracts previous statements, also called him a racist, sexist misogynist.

Calling it as it is. Refreshing.

[Pretty Boy]

Raynor calling Johnson et al **** is probably the most I have agreed with a comment made by a politician in years. She was maybe a bit too reserved for my tastes tbh. Good on her.

[hibsbollah]

The watered down compromise still pretty much closes the door on another Corbyn and will continue to enrage the hard left when it's debated today.

The rule change certainly would close the door on ‘another Corbyn’, in fact it would close the door on any other candidate except Sir Keir Starmer. He was the only candidate to get the support of over 25% of MPs last time. It’s just ridiculous it’s even being discussed, trying to gerrymander his power like Vladimir Putin, it’s not like there’s not other pressing concerns in the country at the moment :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Promise that got him elected as leader last year- ‘I will support public ownership of rail, mail, energy and water’.

9am Starmer- ‘No to nationalizing the gas sector’
1pm Conference votes a overwhelming Yes to nationalizing the gas sector.

Polls show 65% of the UK public support nationalizing the gas sector.

[Northernhibee]

Raynor calling Johnson et al **** is probably the most I have agreed with a comment made by a politician in years. She was maybe a bit too reserved for my tastes tbh. Good on her.

She was great at PMQs too. Her Full Disclosure interview with James O'Brien is a great watch.

Labour need to put her front and centre and let her tell her story. Relatable, unguarded, fiery and someone who would win over a lot of voters.

[Santa Cruz]

Promise that got him elected as leader last year- ‘I will support public ownership of rail, mail, energy and water’.

9am Starmer- ‘No to nationalizing the gas sector’
1pm Conference votes a overwhelming Yes to nationalizing the gas sector.

Polls show 65% of the UK public support nationalizing the gas sector.

Are you not in favour of nationalising public services, it's just it wasn't on your list of priorities in your earlier post? I'm interested in folks views on this. Do you know why there is support for the gas sector but no mention of electricity?

[Santa Cruz]

She was great at PMQs too. Her Full Disclosure interview with James O'Brien is a great watch.

Labour need to put her front and centre and let her tell her story. Relatable, unguarded, fiery and someone who would win over a lot of voters.

Knows her stuff from her trade union days and would fight for better pay and conditions for many undervalued workers. Needs to be a bit more savvy imo, if all politicians hurled insults and abuse in Parliament, I think we'd rightly be asking questions. I don't expect she'll apologise, I just think she wastes her talents by doing that.

[hibsbollah]

Are you not in favour of nationalising public services, it's just it wasn't on your list of priorities in your earlier post? I'm interested in folks views on this. Do you know why there is support for the gas sector but no mention of electricity?

I am flattered that you or anyone actually pays attention to what i post :greengrin but yes i missed it out and i do think nationalising the public utilities is one of the things i think would make life better for people. Thats not because I am ideologically wedded to it, i just think empirical evidence shows you'll get better value AND performance as a consumer if these key ASSETS exist for the benefit of users not shareholders. Its basic socialism. Youre allowed to have a public and a private sector. Its not extremism. And also I believe in there is a sort of sanctity to the electoral process where if you stand on a platform you should deliver on that platform; Starmer committed himself explicitly to public ownership of the key sectors we've talked about and won the trust of the labour members for a policy that is massively popular in the country, now he's abandoning that promise and its totally unnewsworthy, i dont think Kuennsberg or the beeb have mentioned it once.

I would imagine that you gov polled about nationalising gas specifically as distinct from electricity because of the recent news about gas price instability, ie-its newsworthy so they run a poll. Its nothing new really in terms of polling; if you present people with a left wing policy its usually very popular with them, but if its presented or explained as Labour's policy (or more especially a Corbyn era policy) it immediately suffers by association by 10-20 points. Theres a big gap between political values and political association, and i think thats easily explained by who controls the message.

[Pretty Boy]

I am flattered that you or anyone actually pays attention to what i post :greengrin but yes i missed it out and i do think nationalising the public utilities is one of the things i think would make life better for people. Thats not because I am ideologically wedded to it, i just think empirical evidence shows you'll get better value AND performance as a consumer if these key ASSETS exist for the benefit of users not shareholders. Its basic socialism. Youre allowed to have a public and a private sector. Its not extremism. And also I believe in there is a sort of sanctity to the electoral process where if you stand on a platform you should deliver on that platform; Starmer committed himself explicitly to public ownership of the key sectors we've talked about and won the trust of the labour members for a policy that is massively popular in the country, now he's abandoning that promise and its totally unnewsworthy, i dont think Kuennsberg or the beeb have mentioned it once.

I would imagine that you gov polled about nationalising gas specifically as distinct from electricity because of the recent news about gas price instability, ie-its newsworthy so they run a poll. Its nothing new really in terms of polling; if you present people with a left wing policy its usually very popular with them, but if its presented or explained as Labour's policy (or more especially a Corbyn era policy) it immediately suffers by association by 10-20 points. Theres a big gap between political values and political association, and i think thats easily explained by who controls the message.

I think nationalisation has a bad name because absolutely everything is referenced to British Rail, which has long been a standing joke in the British psyche. The fact the consumer experience on the train isn't really all that much better and certainly not cheaper in the age of so called competitive franchises is neither here nor there for many.

Similar with the Corbyn pledge about broadband. The immediate response was to wheel out a load of tech journos screaming 'but but it will stifle innovation'. Bollocks. The policy was that everyone should have a basic broadband service as it is to all intents and purposes a necessity now. If people wanted to pay for an enhanced product they would still have been free to do so. That would have meant innovation was still not only desirable but essential.

It's almost like people are scared of the state taking responsibility for providing essential services and giving people a high basic standard of living.

[Santa Cruz]

I am flattered that you or anyone actually pays attention to what i post :greengrin but yes i missed it out and i do think nationalising the public utilities is one of the things i think would make life better for people. Thats not because I am ideologically wedded to it, i just think empirical evidence shows you'll get better value AND performance as a consumer if these key ASSETS exist for the benefit of users not shareholders. Its basic socialism. Youre allowed to have a public and a private sector. Its not extremism. And also I believe in there is a sort of sanctity to the electoral process where if you stand on a platform you should deliver on that platform; Starmer committed himself explicitly to public ownership of the key sectors we've talked about and won the trust of the labour members for a policy that is massively popular in the country, now he's abandoning that promise and its totally unnewsworthy, i dont think Kuennsberg or the beeb have mentioned it once.

I would imagine that you gov polled about nationalising gas specifically as distinct from electricity because of the recent news about gas price instability, ie-its newsworthy so they run a poll. Its nothing new really in terms of polling; if you present people with a left wing policy its usually very popular with them, but if its presented or explained as Labour's policy (or more especially a Corbyn era policy) it immediately suffers by association by 10-20 points. Theres a big gap between political values and political association, and i think thats easily explained by who controls the message.

Cheers for explaining. I think we may have discussed on another thread about different types of voters. I think there's a percentage like yourself that are really quite passionate about politics. I think there's a percentage like me, interested but not overly invested in it. Then a percentage of disenfranchised "politically homeless" voters. I wouldn't describe myself as a true socialist, certainly not when it comes to nationalising public services, I'm not convinced that creates enough economic growth. I also think consumers get better value where competition exists. I am in favour of the socialist aspects we currently have being vastly improved, like the NHS, Social Care, Benefits and Education. I would also like to see more affordable social housing.

I wonder if the poll would have been the same had it been held a few months ago before the Energy crisis.

Why would the BBC not mention Starmer abandoning policies, I thought there was a perception they were biased towards the Tory's?

[hibsbollah]

I think nationalisation has a bad name because absolutely everything is referenced to British Rail, which has long been a standing joke in the British psyche. The fact the consumer experience on the train isn't really all that much better and certainly not cheaper in the age of so called competitive franchises is neither here nor there for many.

Similar with the Corbyn pledge about broadband. The immediate response was to wheel out a load of tech journos screaming 'but but it will stifle innovation'. Bollocks. The policy was that everyone should have a basic broadband service as it is to all intents and purposes a necessity now. If people wanted to pay for an enhanced product they would still have been free to do so. That would have meant innovation was still not only desirable but essential.

It's almost like people are scared of the state taking responsibility for providing essential services and giving people a high basic standard of living.

Agree. French state owned railway SNCF is modern fast and cheaper than the UK, even in the USA Amtrak which is a great system to travel on is a sort of private public partnership where profits are re-invested. Travel on state owned railways all over the world and the experience is better. A lot of people have given up travelling by train in this country, franchising has been a nightmare. A lot of peoples memories of British rail are shaped by the fact that it was just a long time ago; service and technology has changed since then! But we still have the BR=crap sandwiches narrative.

Universal broadband provision for families? I absolutely loved it at the time it was launched, but post pandemic, with families with poor wifi being unable to access the teams and zoom calls that was the only education the schools were providing for months? Would have been an Absolute godsend. Is it socialism? I dunno but If Boris had launched it and called it 'levelling up' i bet it would have got an easy ride from the press.

[Just Alf]

Cheers for explaining. I think we may have discussed on another thread about different types of voters. I think there's a percentage like yourself that are really quite passionate about politics. I think there's a percentage like me, interested but not overly invested in it. Then a percentage of disenfranchised "politically homeless" voters. I wouldn't describe myself as a true socialist, certainly not when it comes to nationalising public services, I'm not convinced that creates enough economic growth. I also think consumers get better value where competition exists. I am in favour of the socialist aspects we currently have being vastly improved, like the NHS, Social Care, Benefits and Education. I would also like to see more affordable social housing.

I wonder if the poll would have been the same had it been held a few months ago before the Energy crisis.

Why would the BBC not mention Starmer abandoning policies, I thought there was a perception they were biased towards the Tory's?He did got pulled up for it on the Marr show this morning to be fair, I think he had a poor interview to be honest, he started off a bit 'table thumping' in manner as if he was trying to get his message out regardless of the question, then was floundering a bit with some of the questions... thing is I can see some grains of optimism in what's being said... just can't see any hope of delivery...

[hibsbollah]

Why would the BBC not mention Starmer abandoning policies, I thought there was a perception they were biased towards the Tory's?

For me, theres no question that Starmer has had a very easy ride from the media. But bias is a subjective thing?

[Since90+2]

Angela Rayner is brilliant. Not afraid to speak her mind and says exactly what a good proportion of the population think.

Whether or not she's the right person to win enough votes to get Labour back into power is another thing. I hope she is.

[He's here!]

Angela Rayner is brilliant. Not afraid to speak her mind and says exactly what a good proportion of the population think.

Whether or not she's the right person to win enough votes to get Labour back into power is another thing. I hope she is.

Starmer should have stuck by his decision to sack her after the Hartlepool by-election humiliation. But after initially showing commendable strength when dealing with anti-Semitism he's become increasingly weak when faced with confrontation. This is childish stuff from Rayner, which she's previously been forced to apologise for. Labour need to offer more than just name-calling if they want to be taken seriously, and this sort of thing is hardly going to win over the wavering Tory voters they desperately need to recruit.

[hibsbollah]

Starmer should have stuck by his decision to sack her after the Hartlepool by-election humiliation. But after initially showing commendable strength when dealing with anti-Semitism he's become increasingly weak when faced with confrontation. This is childish stuff from Rayner, which she's previously been forced to apologise for. Labour need to offer more than just name-calling if they want to be taken seriously, and this sort of thing is hardly going to win over the wavering Tory voters they desperately need to recruit.

Your solution for what the Labour Party ‘should do’ for the benefit of his team is pretty similar to me giving advice as to what the current Hearts manager ‘should do’ for the best of his team; ie-I’m not exactly a critical friend.

I think you want a Labour Party which isn’t far removed from the Tories, which is the party you vote for. But that’s not really healthy for democracy is it?

[Kato]

People dieing, people struggling to make ends meet, people struggling to find a worthwhile place in the world but the most important thing is not to make "childish" remarks.

This is from people who bow and scrape to a woman because she inherited a metal hat from her Dad.

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[hibsbollah]

People dieing, people struggling to make ends meet, people struggling to find a worthwhile place in the world but the most important thing is not to make "childish" remarks.

This is from people who bow and scrape to a woman because she inherited a metal hat from her Dad.

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I file it together with Dawn Butler being expelled from the HOC for calling Boris Johnston a liar and refusing to retract it. Also see any debate with a racist when you call them a racist. Theres predictable (mock) outrage, 'How DARE you call me a racist (for being racist) How DARE you call him a liar (for being a liar), how dare you call him **** (for being, well you know). The reactionary right are full of it. And the racism, or the lying, which by any objective measure is far far worse than the calling out, is ignored, and the apparent crime of calling out bad behaviour. Its astonishing to me that Johnston has not had to apologise for the letterbox thing, or the watermelon smiles thing, or the repeated lying. Its just kind of where we are.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/27/shadow-minister-quits-over-starmers-minimum-wage-stance?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/27/shadow-minister-quits-over-starmers-minimum-wage-stance?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


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His team wanting to be still seen as working class although he has a knighthood. Well it would help if he wasn't an establishment center right prick.

https://mobile.twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1442554547889659905

The idiot is happy to call for 15 pound when it gives him a good photo op in link above. But across the board no chance, his big business backers wouldn't like that. There is a reason the media don't attack starmer and that is because he wouldn't touch big business interests, as shown with his flapping on privatisation of gas. Get us out this union, the two main leaders are a joke

[Stairway 2 7]

BREAKING: Shadow minister Andy McDonald has quit the shadow cabinet - claiming he was asked to argue against a £15 an hour national minimum wage and statutory sick pay at the living wage

[Kato]

Policies aside.

Out of the last two leaders of the Labour party they couldn't have picked two characters more likely to do their oppositions work for them. I get they have a problem with getting even the most rational of the press to give them a fair hearing sometimes but as personalities the Tories may as well have planted they pair them themselves.

[Stairway 2 7]

Jeremy Corbyn: Keir Starmer wants to prop up the wealthy and the powerful
Labour membership and trade unions are under attack because they want social change

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-keir-starmer-labour-leader-prop-up-wealth-powerful-1220451

[Kato]

Jeremy Corbyn: Keir Starmer wants to prop up the wealthy and the powerful
Labour membership and trade unions are under attack because they want social change

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-keir-starmer-labour-leader-prop-up-wealth-powerful-1220451" the Bank of England created £450bn in just eight months last year,*and billionaire wealth increased*globally by more than 50 per cent between March 2020 and March 2021."

Sums

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210927/7fb8e56d749d857a3dd6ae96eeba36c1.jpg

Labour putting itself before the interests of the country.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Career politicians would never vote for that unfortunately.

An aside I just read Ken loach one of our greatest directors, was expelled from the Labour Party in their socialist purge. What a shame a genius and an important voice worth listening to, worth 1000 starters, murrays or mandelsons

[Pretty Boy]

One of the take aways from the Corbyn era was that with the right message you can invigorate and engage younger voters. A group traditionally disenfranchised and least likely to vote.

In 2017 he amassed more than 12M votes. 3M more than Blair in 05, 4M more than Brown in 10 and 3M more than Miliband in 15. Even in the disastrous 2019 election he got more popular votes than any of those named above and broke the 10M barrier. Both his elections were without the traditional heartlands in Scotland as well.

Of course the flip side is the threat of Corbyn such as it was also mobilised the vote of his opponents. The Tory popular vote reads:

19 - 13.9M
17 - 13.6M
15 - 11.3M
10 - 10.7M
05 - 8.7M

It seems the more of a socialist the Labour leader is perceived or painted as the more certain demographics run for cover and negate the gains Labour may make. With that in mind it makes anyone who really cares about the Labour movement shutting down a discussion on PR very odd.

It's a shame the socialist experiment has been so ruthlessly obliterated and abandoned. The interesting thing to watch in future years is what happens to the Tory vote as future generations have less and less to protect. Why vote for the Conservatives when you have nothing to conserve? As homeownership collapse amongst the under 40s, wages and pensions stagnate against a rising cost of living and key services become ever more strained there is little I can see on offer from a party ultimately rooted in preserving the status quo.

It's callous to say Labour can take advantage of such a situation. That sounds opportunistic. What it does present though is an opportunity for Labour to lay out an alternative and a radical one at that. There isn't one on offer from any other mainstream party in the UK. Sadly it seems the current incumbent at the head of the party prefers to preserve the aforementioned status quo. The Labour Party had always been an evolving entity, desperately scrambling back to the centre ground and the comfort blanket of late 90s Blairism isn't evolution, it's madness at a time when a fresh approach is so desperately needed.

[hibsbollah]

BREAKING: Shadow minister Andy McDonald has quit the shadow cabinet - claiming he was asked to argue against a £15 an hour national minimum wage and statutory sick pay at the living wage

What is really interesting about this story is what the leadership DOES think the minimum wage should be. And what they think sick pay should be. Even setting SSP at living wage levels, while an improvement on the disgraceful £96 a week you get currently, still puts the UK below what the rest of western Europe pay. If they’re willing to command shadow ministers not to campaign for a £15ph minimum wage, they must think the priority is keeping social security spending and wage inflation down. Really? ****ing unbelievable at a time when the poor in society have never been in a more precarious position. And he’s got the nerve to get on his soapbox about the Boris universal credit cut, when he’d probably do the same himself. Charlatan.

[Hiber-nation]

A complete and utter mess even by Labour standards. Was this a plan by Starmer to force McDonald out as he was obviously deemed more trouble than he was worth? The split in the party is wider than ever.

[Hibbyradge]

On Friday, Andy McDonald MP, as the Shadow Cabinet member responsible for Employment Rights, was very happy to jointly launch, with Angela Rayner, this Labour Party Press Release calling for the immediate increase in the Minimum Wage to £10.00 an hour!

Today, three days later, he resigns because Sir Keir wouldn’t let him go to a meeting to publicly support a 50% increase in that rate!

If affordable, a Minimum Wage of £15.00 an hour would be great, but, what has changed in the three days since the launch of the Press Release to cause this Shadow Minister to believe that such a massive hike would be credible or implementable for small businesses, in particular, in the current economic circumstances?

Even though I’m no uncritical cheerleader for Sir Keir, this is obviously a shameless attempt by the Corbynistas to undermine him a couple of days before his big speech, which, I suspect, might very well play right into the Leader’s hands!

[hibsbollah]

On Friday, Andy McDonald MP, as the Shadow Cabinet member responsible for Employment Rights, was very happy to jointly launch, with Angela Rayner, this Labour Party Press Release calling for the immediate increase in the Minimum Wage to £10.00 an hour!

Today, three days later, he resigns because Sir Keir wouldn’t let him go to a meeting to publicly support a 50% increase in that rate!

If affordable, a Minimum Wage of £15.00 an hour would be great, but, what has changed in the three days since the launch of the Press Release to cause this Shadow Minister to believe that such a massive hike would be credible or implementable for small businesses, in particular, in the current economic circumstances?

Even though I’m no uncritical cheerleader for Sir Keir, this is obviously a shameless attempt by the Corbynistas to undermine him a couple of days before his big speech, which, I suspect, might very well play right into the Leader’s hands!

The current minimum wage is a bawhair under £9. A measly £1 a hour increase, while better than nothing, will do very little to mitigate the winter in front of the 40% of universal credit recipients who work and are about to see £20 a week taken off them. Before we start talking about food, heating increases we’re aware of from watching the news.

Your premise seems to be that it’s weird and somehow duplicitous to say i want the Tories to increase it to £10 but at the same time I attend a meeting where i and others think that, you know what, a Labour Govt should aspire for more than that. I don’t think it is.

[Ozyhibby]

The current minimum wage is a bawhair under £9. A measly £1 a hour increase, while better than nothing, will do very little to mitigate the winter in front of the 40% of universal credit recipients who work and are about to see £20 a week taken off them. Before we start talking about food, heating increases we’re aware of from watching the news.

Your premise seems to be that it’s weird and somehow duplicitous to say i want the Tories to increase it to £10 but at the same time I attend a meeting where i and others think that, you know what, a Labour Govt should aspire for more than that. I don’t think it is.

Unless it gets elected the figure doesn’t matter a jot what figure the Labour Party settles on. They could make it £100 an hour for all the difference it makes.


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[ballengeich]

If affordable, a Minimum Wage of £15.00 an hour would be great, but, what has changed in the three days since the launch of the Press Release to cause this Shadow Minister to believe that such a massive hike would be credible or implementable for small businesses, in particular, in the current economic circumstances?


According to the site below average full-time wage is £31,400. I don't know whether that's a basic figure or includes overtime, bonuses etc, but it does include people who're on a lot more than the average so I reckon the majority get less than the average.

https://standout-cv.com/pages/average-uk-salary#:~:text=The%20average%20full-time%20salary%20in%20the%20UK%20also,increase%20fr om%202019%E2%80%99s%20figures%20%28including%20gig %20economy%20workers%29

£15 per hour for 35 hours a week for 52 weeks comes to £27,300 per year. For 40 hours per week it's £31,200. Is a minimum so close to the current average, and above what the majority of full-timers currently earn, a practical policy? I don't think so.

[Stairway 2 7]

On Friday, Andy McDonald MP, as the Shadow Cabinet member responsible for Employment Rights, was very happy to jointly launch, with Angela Rayner, this Labour Party Press Release calling for the immediate increase in the Minimum Wage to £10.00 an hour!

Today, three days later, he resigns because Sir Keir wouldn’t let him go to a meeting to publicly support a 50% increase in that rate!

If affordable, a Minimum Wage of £15.00 an hour would be great, but, what has changed in the three days since the launch of the Press Release to cause this Shadow Minister to believe that such a massive hike would be credible or implementable for small businesses, in particular, in the current economic circumstances?

Even though I’m no uncritical cheerleader for Sir Keir, this is obviously a shameless attempt by the Corbynistas to undermine him a couple of days before his big speech, which, I suspect, might very well play right into the Leader’s hands!
Utter nonsense £10 is expected by the tories not what Labour should be pushing for. I remember when the original minimum wage the media was full of horror stories, small companies would go bust and the economy would toil. A couple who works full time shouldn't just be surviving. We get snooty about American workers poor conditions but I noticed NY is matching california in bringing in $15 minimum wage £11ish. I think alot of new labour hate the left more than the right which is frightening

[Pretty Boy]

Utter nonsense £10 is expected by the tories not what Labour should be pushing for. I remember when the original minimum wage the media was full of horror stories, small companies would go bust and the economy would toil. A couple who works full time shouldn't just be surviving. We get snooty about American workers poor conditions but I noticed NY is matching california in bringing in $15 minimum wage £11ish. I think alot of new labour hate the left more than the right which is frightening

I'd argue expecting someone to have a decent standard of living on £9 something an hour these days is less realistic than a minimum wage of £15 an hour. Even upping the current minimum wage to £10 an hour is window dressing. If the Tories are going for £10 an hour then Labour should be striving to better that. That should be a given.

Of course we could always have a serious conversation about UBI and ensure everyone has enough to take care of the basics.......

[Jack]

I recall the Socialist Workers Party have been putting posters up demanding a minimum wage of £10 an hour for what seems forever! A good 10 years anyway.

[hibsbollah]

According to the site below average full-time wage is £31,400. I don't know whether that's a basic figure or includes overtime, bonuses etc, but it does include people who're on a lot more than the average so I reckon the majority get less than the average.

https://standout-cv.com/pages/average-uk-salary#:~:text=The%20average%20full-time%20salary%20in%20the%20UK%20also,increase%20fr om%202019%E2%80%99s%20figures%20%28including%20gig %20economy%20workers%29

£15 per hour for 35 hours a week for 52 weeks comes to £27,300 per year. For 40 hours per week it's £31,200. Is a minimum so close to the current average, and above what the majority of full-timers currently earn, a practical policy? I don't think so.

I wouldn’t worry unduly, if the opposition front benchers can’t attend fringe meetings where the subject is merely up for debate, 2 years from election and 7 points behind in the polls, it’s a long way from making it to statute. It’s not just the NMW for over 25s that was being discussed, families can’t actually afford to live on sick pay as it currently stands. Why is the minimum wage so much lower for 18-21 yos (£6.56 my daughter currently earns) when they can have similar living costs to over 21s?

Personally I think it’s way more impractical to allow the huge increases in personal wealth and salary increases that the top 5% are currently enjoying. (Ex Tory councilor and BBC chief Tim Davies salary announcement yesterday a case in point). I wonder if that’ll be front and centre in tomorrow’s speech?

[Moulin Yarns]

The current minimum wage is a bawhair under £9. A measly £1 a hour increase, while better than nothing, will do very little to mitigate the winter in front of the 40% of universal credit recipients who work and are about to see £20 a week taken off them. Before we start talking about food, heating increases we’re aware of from watching the news.

Your premise seems to be that it’s weird and somehow duplicitous to say i want the Tories to increase it to £10 but at the same time I attend a meeting where i and others think that, you know what, a Labour Govt should aspire for more than that. I don’t think it is.

The measly £1 uplifting is £2,080 a year for someone on a 40 hour contract. I know that that won't be most people on minimum wage. But it's a lot of money for people at that level.

[hibsbollah]

The measly £1 uplifting is £2,080 a year for someone on a 40 hour contract. I know that that won't be most people on minimum wage. But it's a lot of money for people at that level.

…but many of those people are on Universal credit. Losing £20 a week x 52 weeks,well I’m sure you can do the maths. And because UC is paid on the gross final amount, you actually have to work on average 9 hours a week extra to regain the £20 you’ve had taken from your UC. Add the fuel bills and cost of living increases and inflationary pressures will have wiped out a £1 per hour uplift in early 2022 for most people, far less whenever the next election is called. The point is the wider economic pressures, not of course Starmers fault, will make even that £1 per hour uplift redundant very quickly.

And as you say, almost nobody is contracted at 40 hours a week at the minimum wage. You’re far more likely to be in the gig economy rushing to multiple jobs, or doing 25 hours a week and looking after your kids because you can’t afford to pay for childcare.

[Pretty Boy]

I was just doing a bit of digging around to create a hypothetical scenario to see how far the minimum wage as it currently stands really stretches,

Imagine a guy of 25, lives on his own in Edinburgh and earns minimum wage.

Minimum wage, rather than living wage for his age group is £8.91 per hour, say 40 hours a week and factor in holidays and the like we will go for his gross salary being £18500. If we assume they pay 3% pension contributions then they pay £555 a year towards that, £1072 in national insurance and £1073 in tax. A search on RightMove suggests renting a one bedroom flat can set you back anywhere between £650 and £1300 in Edinburgh, lets go conservative and say £700 a month. Lets say that flat is in council tax band B that's £1398.27 per year less a 25% single person discount. Let's say they can't afford a car but need to use public transport to work so buy a Ridacard from Lothian Buses, that's £56 a month. I have a 2 bedroom flat and my fixed rate gas and electricity was £45 a month. That's been increased to £68 in light of the current energy situation but we'll call it £40 a month for a one bedroom In terms of other things lets accept that a smartphone is now an essential, I have a bog standard Huawei which is about as cheap as contract phones come, that's £21 a month. I think it can also be argued a broadband connection is close to an essential. A quick comparison suggests you can get 10mb speed for £16.99 a month so lets assume we only want the very basics.

Gross Pay - £18500
Pension - £555
NI - £1072
Income Tax - £1073
Rent - £8400
Council tax - £1048
Travel - £672
Gas and electric - £480
Phone - £252
Internet - £204
After tax and expenses - £4744

Or split another way £395 a month to buy clothes and food. That also then needs to meet the costs of things like a TV or streaming subscription, socialising, football, gym memberships, holidays etc. Of course none of those are essentials but we are surely striving to give people a decent standard of living through working rather than a crash course in survival?

Suddenly £15 an hour doesn't look so daft to me. That requires us to abandon the thinking that has been drummed into us for decades about trickle down economics and wealth creators though.......

[Ozyhibby]

I was just doing a bit of digging around to create a hypothetical scenario to see how far the minimum wage as it currently stands really stretches,

Imagine a guy of 25, lives on his own in Edinburgh and earns minimum wage.

Minimum wage, rather than living wage for his age group is £8.91 per hour, say 40 hours a week and factor in holidays and the like we will go for his gross salary being £18500. If we assume they pay 3% pension contributions then they pay £555 a year towards that, £1072 in national insurance and £1073 in tax. A search on RightMove suggests renting a one bedroom flat can set you back anywhere between £650 and £1300 in Edinburgh, lets go conservative and say £700 a month. Lets say that flat is in council tax band B that's £1398.27 per year less a 25% single person discount. Let's say they can't afford a car but need to use public transport to work so buy a Ridacard from Lothian Buses, that's £56 a month. I have a 2 bedroom flat and my fixed rate gas and electricity was £45 a month. That's been increased to £68 in light of the current energy situation but we'll call it £40 a month for a one bedroom In terms of other things lets accept that a smartphone is now an essential, I have a bog standard Huawei which is about as cheap as contract phones come, that's £21 a month. I think it can also be argued a broadband connection is close to an essential. A quick comparison suggests you can get 10mb speed for £16.99 a month so lets assume we only want the very basics.

Gross Pay - £18500
Pension - £555
NI - £1072
Income Tax - £1073
Rent - £8400
Council tax - £1048
Travel - £672
Gas and electric - £480
Phone - £252
Internet - £204
After tax and expenses - £4744

Or split another way £395 a month to buy clothes and food. That also then needs to meet the costs of things like a TV or streaming subscription, socialising, football, gym memberships, holidays etc. Of course none of those are essentials but we are surely striving to give people a decent standard of living through working rather than a crash course in survival?

Suddenly £15 an hour doesn't look so daft to me. That requires us to abandon the thinking that has been drummed into us for decades though about trickle down economics and wealth creators though.......

We are clearly not getting it right on wage levels when the tax payer has to top up the wage of people working full time.


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[Pretty Boy]

We are clearly not getting it right on wage Leo’s when the tax payer has to top up the wage of people working full time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree:

I think it really is that simple. Something is going wrong somewhere if a person or a family in full time work need significant help from the govt to make ends meet.

One other thing I didn't mention in my previous post was the cost of childcare for families. I'm just back at work from paternity leave (a paltry 2 weeks but that's another gripe) after the birth of my 2nd child. At some point in the coming months we will have to have the discussion about my partner returning to work. Last time out we were looking at anywhere between £800 and £1300 a month for nursery fees if she went back full time. That made no sense financially so she returned part time, my salary is such that we get by and don't get any universal credit or whatever but it's tight. That's another instance were there is a disincentive to working.

I'm not sitting here being totally prescriptive that the minimum wage must be £15 and hour and childcare must be free. However I would argue it's the kind of discussion the Labour Party as a movement should be driving. If they are not then they have lost their way badly. There are all kinds of creative ways the costs to small and medium sized businesses could be offset. Giving people a bit more money in their pocket to go out and spend is good for business and good for the economy, it makes sense.

[Hibbyradge]

I'd argue expecting someone to have a decent standard of living on £9 something an hour these days is less realistic than a minimum wage of £15 an hour. Even upping the current minimum wage to £10 an hour is window dressing. If the Tories are going for £10 an hour then Labour should be striving to better that. That should be a given.

Of course we could always have a serious conversation about UBI and ensure everyone has enough to take care of the basics.......

I agree, but my point is about Macdonald's resigning because the leader is proposing exactly what he was campaigning for only hours earlier.

[Hibbyradge]

I wouldn’t worry unduly, if the opposition front benchers can’t attend fringe meetings where the subject is merely up for debate, 2 years from election and 7 points behind in the polls, it’s a long way from making it to statute.



Yet Andy Macdonald resigns because of it!

[SHODAN]

https://i.imgur.com/kVkhhkv.jpg

[Smartie]

:agree:

I think it really is that simple. Something is going wrong somewhere if a person or a family in full time work need significant help from the govt to make ends meet.

One other thing I didn't mention in my previous post was the cost of childcare for families. I'm just back at work from paternity leave (a paltry 2 weeks but that's another gripe) after the birth of my 2nd child. At some point in the coming months we will have to have the discussion about my partner returning to work. Last time out we were looking at anywhere between £800 and £1300 a month for nursery fees if she went back full time. That made no sense financially so she returned part time, my salary is such that we get by and don't get any universal credit or whatever but it's tight. That's another instance were there is a disincentive to working.

I'm not sitting here being totally prescriptive that the minimum wage must be £15 and hour and childcare must be free. However I would argue it's the kind of discussion the Labour Party as a movement should be driving. If they are not then they have lost their way badly. There are all kinds of creative ways the costs to small and medium sized businesses could be offset. Giving people a bit more money in their pocket to go out and spend is good for business and good for the economy, it makes sense.

I'm not going to argue that there's not something far wrong, but I think we need to be a bit careful about the generalisation that all business owners are on colossal salaries and are brutally exploiting their staff.

I've just taken your fag packet calculations a bit further and worked out that instead of being able to take anything out of my business, by immediately raising all of my employees' wages to £15 per hour I'd have to find about £30k per year to stick into the business, not pay myself, and work full time. I don't have any savings to dig into, so that would be a business that simply wouldn't be able to operate. It's certainly not much incentive for the likes of myself to go to Uni for 6 years, carry out extensive postgraduate training, take the risk of buying a business for etc, especially not when there are offers on the table to drive an HGV for north of £50k per year.

Would my staff rather work where they do for the pay they do or not have that job? I guess you'd need to ask them that. My team seem to cut their cloth accordingly - the nature of what we do is that they are mostly female and young. One or two still live with their parents, a few have recently moved in with boyfriends etc. Interestingly enough, I'm the only one that lives in Edinburgh - and I can only afford to still live there because I'm on an interest only mortgage that I took out in 2007 when I had a better job than I do now. And even that is just a 2 bedroom flat. There's no way that I can afford to stay in the city when I next move, as a second child would realistically necessitate. Folk who can afford to live in Edinburgh don't apply for jobs at my business - we get people who live in West Lothian and who commute in, as they know that is how they can manage a lifestyle on the wage on offer (we can get onto the increasing cost of commuting in due course, I'm sure).

The issue is the cost of rent and mortgages relative to those wages. Your fag packet calculations look very different when single man has a sensible outgoing for his accommodation. None of us like to think we're part of the problem and we all prefer to point the finger at some bogeyman (preferably faceless) but the truth is that any of us who are on that property ladder and live in fear of the value of our house going down are to blame. How many people wouldn't, given an unexpected windfall, invest it in property and gouge more out for their own personal benefit at the cost of someone else, somewhere else somewhere further down the chain?


Something needs to change, no doubt. But whatever it is, will be pretty unpalatable and will have undesirable consequences. I've really been falling out of love with Edinburgh and Scotland in recent years as I look upon it as a cruel, unfair place where the gap between the haves and the have nots seems to be ridiculously wide. I look at my staff and see the job they do for what they are paid - and they are talented, pleasant grafters. I'd like to pay them more. Funnily enough, in general they seem to be much happier with their lot in life than me...

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not going to argue that there's not something far wrong, but I think we need to be a bit careful about the generalisation that all business owners are on colossal salaries and are brutally exploiting their staff.

I've just taken your fag packet calculations a bit further and worked out that instead of being able to take anything out of my business, by immediately raising all of my employees' wages to £15 per hour I'd have to find about £30k per year to stick into the business, not pay myself, and work full time. I don't have any savings to dig into, so that would be a business that simply wouldn't be able to operate. It's certainly not much incentive for the likes of myself to go to Uni for 6 years, carry out extensive postgraduate training, take the risk of buying a business for etc, especially not when there are offers on the table to drive an HGV for north of £50k per year.

Would my staff rather work where they do for the pay they do or not have that job? I guess you'd need to ask them that. My team seem to cut their cloth accordingly - the nature of what we do is that they are mostly female and young. One or two still live with their parents, a few have recently moved in with boyfriends etc. Interestingly enough, I'm the only one that lives in Edinburgh - and I can only afford to still live there because I'm on an interest only mortgage that I took out in 2007 when I had a better job than I do now. And even that is just a 2 bedroom flat. There's no way that I can afford to stay in the city when I next move, as a second child would realistically necessitate. Folk who can afford to live in Edinburgh don't apply for jobs at my business - we get people who live in West Lothian and who commute in, as they know that is how they can manage a lifestyle on the wage on offer (we can get onto the increasing cost of commuting in due course, I'm sure).

The issue is the cost of rent and mortgages relative to those wages. Your fag packet calculations look very different when single man has a sensible outgoing for his accommodation. None of us like to think we're part of the problem and we all prefer to point the finger at some bogeyman (preferably faceless) but the truth is that any of us who are on that property ladder and live in fear of the value of our house going down are to blame. How many people wouldn't, given an unexpected windfall, invest it in property and gouge more out for their own personal benefit at the cost of someone else, somewhere else somewhere further down the chain?


Something needs to change, no doubt. But whatever it is, will be pretty unpalatable and will have undesirable consequences. I've really been falling out of love with Edinburgh and Scotland in recent years as I look upon it as a cruel, unfair place where the gap between the haves and the have nots seems to be ridiculously wide. I look at my staff and see the job they do for what they are paid - and they are talented, pleasant grafters. I'd like to pay them more. Funnily enough, in general they seem to be much happier with their lot in life than me...

Of course it's not as simple as stating all business owners are inherently evil and exploitative and if we just give everyone £15 an hour it solves all our problems with no consequence. I hoped I had acknowledged that by suggesting that it was the responsibility of government, or in this case the opposition, to get creative and mitigate the costs to business, particularly small and medium sized ones.

I think we all know that the issue with that is it would involve upsetting some people higher up the ladder than you or I. People who have influence and can make life exceptionally difficult for a politician and their party if they are too disruptive.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210927/7fb8e56d749d857a3dd6ae96eeba36c1.jpg

Labour putting itself before the interests of the country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Their membership was massively in favour (79% of CLP vote) but the unions have blocked it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not going to argue that there's not something far wrong, but I think we need to be a bit careful about the generalisation that all business owners are on colossal salaries and are brutally exploiting their staff.

I've just taken your fag packet calculations a bit further and worked out that instead of being able to take anything out of my business, by immediately raising all of my employees' wages to £15 per hour I'd have to find about £30k per year to stick into the business, not pay myself, and work full time. I don't have any savings to dig into, so that would be a business that simply wouldn't be able to operate. It's certainly not much incentive for the likes of myself to go to Uni for 6 years, carry out extensive postgraduate training, take the risk of buying a business for etc, especially not when there are offers on the table to drive an HGV for north of £50k per year.

Would my staff rather work where they do for the pay they do or not have that job? I guess you'd need to ask them that. My team seem to cut their cloth accordingly - the nature of what we do is that they are mostly female and young. One or two still live with their parents, a few have recently moved in with boyfriends etc. Interestingly enough, I'm the only one that lives in Edinburgh - and I can only afford to still live there because I'm on an interest only mortgage that I took out in 2007 when I had a better job than I do now. And even that is just a 2 bedroom flat. There's no way that I can afford to stay in the city when I next move, as a second child would realistically necessitate. Folk who can afford to live in Edinburgh don't apply for jobs at my business - we get people who live in West Lothian and who commute in, as they know that is how they can manage a lifestyle on the wage on offer (we can get onto the increasing cost of commuting in due course, I'm sure).

The issue is the cost of rent and mortgages relative to those wages. Your fag packet calculations look very different when single man has a sensible outgoing for his accommodation. None of us like to think we're part of the problem and we all prefer to point the finger at some bogeyman (preferably faceless) but the truth is that any of us who are on that property ladder and live in fear of the value of our house going down are to blame. How many people wouldn't, given an unexpected windfall, invest it in property and gouge more out for their own personal benefit at the cost of someone else, somewhere else somewhere further down the chain?


Something needs to change, no doubt. But whatever it is, will be pretty unpalatable and will have undesirable consequences. I've really been falling out of love with Edinburgh and Scotland in recent years as I look upon it as a cruel, unfair place where the gap between the haves and the have nots seems to be ridiculously wide. I look at my staff and see the job they do for what they are paid - and they are talented, pleasant grafters. I'd like to pay them more. Funnily enough, in general they seem to be much happier with their lot in life than me...


Why can't you charge your customers more in order to pay your staff more? Presumably if the minimum wage was increased that would apply to your competitors also. Is it competition from lower wage economies abroad?

[hibsbollah]

I'm not going to argue that there's not something far wrong, but I think we need to be a bit careful about the generalisation that all business owners are on colossal salaries and are brutally exploiting their staff.

I've just taken your fag packet calculations a bit further and worked out that instead of being able to take anything out of my business, by immediately raising all of my employees' wages to £15 per hour I'd have to find about £30k per year to stick into the business, not pay myself, and work full time. I don't have any savings to dig into, so that would be a business that simply wouldn't be able to operate. It's certainly not much incentive for the likes of myself to go to Uni for 6 years, carry out extensive postgraduate training, take the risk of buying a business for etc, especially not when there are offers on the table to drive an HGV for north of £50k per year.

Would my staff rather work where they do for the pay they do or not have that job? I guess you'd need to ask them that. My team seem to cut their cloth accordingly - the nature of what we do is that they are mostly female and young. One or two still live with their parents, a few have recently moved in with boyfriends etc. Interestingly enough, I'm the only one that lives in Edinburgh - and I can only afford to still live there because I'm on an interest only mortgage that I took out in 2007 when I had a better job than I do now. And even that is just a 2 bedroom flat. There's no way that I can afford to stay in the city when I next move, as a second child would realistically necessitate. Folk who can afford to live in Edinburgh don't apply for jobs at my business - we get people who live in West Lothian and who commute in, as they know that is how they can manage a lifestyle on the wage on offer (we can get onto the increasing cost of commuting in due course, I'm sure).

The issue is the cost of rent and mortgages relative to those wages. Your fag packet calculations look very different when single man has a sensible outgoing for his accommodation. None of us like to think we're part of the problem and we all prefer to point the finger at some bogeyman (preferably faceless) but the truth is that any of us who are on that property ladder and live in fear of the value of our house going down are to blame. How many people wouldn't, given an unexpected windfall, invest it in property and gouge more out for their own personal benefit at the cost of someone else, somewhere else somewhere further down the chain?


Something needs to change, no doubt. But whatever it is, will be pretty unpalatable and will have undesirable consequences. I've really been falling out of love with Edinburgh and Scotland in recent years as I look upon it as a cruel, unfair place where the gap between the haves and the have nots seems to be ridiculously wide. I look at my staff and see the job they do for what they are paid - and they are talented, pleasant grafters. I'd like to pay them more. Funnily enough, in general they seem to be much happier with their lot in life than me...

I don’t think anyone is generalizing business owners in that way. Neither did the last Labour leadership, the most left wing political party in a generation. It’s just not something you hear in discourse, just the opposite in fact.

[hibsbollah]

Yet Andy Macdonald resigns because of it!

There’s a photo doing the rounds on social media of Starmer holding a placard saying ‘Fight for £15’ at a demo, which was used in the cheeky scamps election campaign :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

There’s a photo doing the rounds on social media of Starmer holding a placard saying ‘Fight for £15’ at a demo, which was used in the cheeky scamps election campaign :rolleyes:

McDonalds.

[Stairway 2 7]

Matt Dathan
@matt_dathan
In an interview w/
@thetimes
, Nick Thomas-Symonds:
- Announces return to Tony Blair's "tough on crime, tough on causes of crime" mantra

- Vows to continue Govt's controversial deportation flights if Lab wins power

- Vows never to bring back free movement

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-revives-blairs-policy-on-crime-jsv5vhv0n

[Kato]

Matt Dathan
@matt_dathan
In an interview w/
@thetimes
, Nick Thomas-Symonds:
- Announces return to Tony Blair's "tough on crime, tough on causes of crime" mantra

- Vows to continue Govt's controversial deportation flights if Lab wins power

- Vows never to bring back free movement

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-revives-blairs-policy-on-crime-jsv5vhv0nThey sound like a version of the Tory party. Not quite as far-right/klepto as the current incumbents but a "polite" version.

No way does this dogwhistling win votes in Scotland.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

Why can't you charge your customers more in order to pay your staff more? Presumably if the minimum wage was increased that would apply to your competitors also. Is it competition from lower wage economies abroad?

There's quite a lot to this, as I tend to try not to give away what I do for a living on here...

I am drafting a letter about a fee increase right now, although that is mainly to attempt to cover the increase in our cost base over the past year, which we have so far (unsuccessfully) attempted to absorb.

There is only so far you can go with fee increases and still expect people to pay though - especially in healthcare when the NHS is part of the competition. You can't compete with the NHS on price, so you have to try something different, and in the current climate it is challenging to provide excellent service, although at least we are attempting to provide a service at all...

Same applies really when it comes to attracting staff, we (I) accept that we cannot afford to pay the most, so we have to accept that some folk will choose competitors. We pay more than most competitors but the "money people" who want the most will go elsewhere. Money is "a" factor for most people but not "the" factor, and as I say, our staff cut their cloth and appear comfortable with the situation. Up to now we don't lose people to go elsewhere for more money. We try to make them happy at work and hope they'll stay for a while because of that, and it tends to work. Most leave when babies happen, or they have to move for their partner's work, and we have to constantly juggle the workforce to accommodate such changes.

It gets a bit tricky when folk want to get on the property ladder, but most of my staff appear to accept that they need to club together with a partner, make a few sacrifices for a while and accept that the property ladder starts at the bottom so they find places they can afford.

That ain't Edinburgh any more.

I think I worry about it more than them, they're just getting on with making it happen.

[Pretty Boy]

They sound like a version of the Tory party. Not quite as far-right/klepto as the current incumbents but a "polite" version.

No way does this dogwhistling win votes in Scotland.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

The last part is a huge issue.

I'm not sold on independence. Give me a democratic socialist govt in Westminster for an extended period and I can be tempted to stay. I'm not even sold on the vision we have for independence, it doesn't seem anywhere near radical enough and whilst I accept it gives us the power to change things ourselves the mechanics of that will take years, possibly decades.

When I see this running for the centre (centre right?) ground by Labour though I wonder what other alternative we have. Governed by Tories or governed by some watered down nominally Labour Party who are determined to appear as all things to all men but really appeal to almost no one.

I don't think I'll be holding my nose and voting SNP again anytime soon but there is nothing from Starmer to tempt me back onside with Labour either.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Takes me back to the days when Eric Heffer pointlessly stormed out of a conference in the 80's

[Smartie]

I don’t think anyone is generalizing business owners in that way. Neither did the last Labour leadership, the most left wing political party in a generation. It’s just not something you hear in discourse, just the opposite in fact.

Labour have lost the trust of an awful lot of people though.

Business owners will look at valid ideas like the living wage and see that incorrectly implemented it has the potential to scupper their own business and livelihood.

Sadly that will lead to moronic acts, such as trusting Tories.

Although I'd imagine that Labour should probably focus on winning back their own heartlands first before they start trying to gain the support of business. Starmer probably disagrees, by the looks of things.

I believe it's a myth that left wing policies and successful business are incompatible, in fact I reckon what we're seeing is the end game of capitalism. Far too much money and power is concentrated with too few, and that's never a healthy state of affairs. It will normally require some pretty radical thinking - and for a large number of people to realise that they're on the opposite side of a line to the one that they think they're on, and that rather than taking away, the solution gives them much more.

[Kato]

The last part is a huge issue.

I'm not sold on independence. Give me a democratic socialist govt in Westminster for an extended period and I can be tempted to stay. I'm not even sold on the vision we have for independence, it doesn't seem anywhere near radical enough and whilst I accept it gives us the power to change things ourselves the mechanics of that will take years, possibly decades.

When I see this running for the centre (centre right?) ground by Labour though I wonder what other alternative we have. Governed by Tories or governed by some watered down nominally Labour Party who are determined to appear as all things to all men but really appeal to almost no one.

I don't think I'll be holding my nose and voting SNP again anytime soon but there is nothing from Starmer to tempt me back onside with Labour either.Am in the same ballpark. No great affinity or affection to any party but don't expect much change from the main UK ones while they are chasing populism.

I'm reminded that when polled blind Labour policies under Corbyn came out on top. Something unsettling is happening between parties and the public that they are willing to vote in theives and charlatans over a party with whom they agree.

That unsettling thing, imo, is the grip the media down south have on the electorates' psyche. They vote emotionally and common sense goes out the window.
There is no sense or sign that this is going to change soon.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

There's quite a lot to this, as I tend to try not to give away what I do for a living on here...

I am drafting a letter about a fee increase right now, although that is mainly to attempt to cover the increase in our cost base over the past year, which we have so far (unsuccessfully) attempted to absorb.

There is only so far you can go with fee increases and still expect people to pay though - especially in healthcare when the NHS is part of the competition. You can't compete with the NHS on price, so you have to try something different, and in the current climate it is challenging to provide excellent service, although at least we are attempting to provide a service at all...

Same applies really when it comes to attracting staff, we (I) accept that we cannot afford to pay the most, so we have to accept that some folk will choose competitors. We pay more than most competitors but the "money people" who want the most will go elsewhere. Money is "a" factor for most people but not "the" factor, and as I say, our staff cut their cloth and appear comfortable with the situation. Up to now we don't lose people to go elsewhere for more money. We try to make them happy at work and hope they'll stay for a while because of that, and it tends to work. Most leave when babies happen, or they have to move for their partner's work, and we have to constantly juggle the workforce to accommodate such changes.

It gets a bit tricky when folk want to get on the property ladder, but most of my staff appear to accept that they need to club together with a partner, make a few sacrifices for a while and accept that the property ladder starts at the bottom so they find places they can afford.

That ain't Edinburgh any more.

I think I worry about it more than them, they're just getting on with making it happen.

Thanks - appreciate you not wanting to be too public.

[He's here!]

Unless it gets elected the figure doesn’t matter a jot what figure the Labour Party settles on. They could make it £100 an hour for all the difference it makes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed. It's a symbolic vote at best. Pie in the sky nonsense to make the party's left wing feel good about themselves and cement in their heads the myth that Labour occupy the moral high ground. You'd think from the way they frame this that all businesses were run by ruthless, exploitative bullies. The reality is that to hike the minimum wage by such an unrealistic extent would likely finish many ordinary business owners off.

It's classic Labour, allowing a party conference to be dominated by in-fighting. I watched Lisa Nandy speak about the wearisome quest to re-establish Labour's identity after four successive election defeats. She's one of the few who sees the bigger picture, whereas the likes of their deputy leader betrays only a puerile lack of awareness of why so many ordinary voters (including swathes of former Labour voters) would rather vote for '****' than her party. If you make no attempt to understand your opponents, and more importantly why so many people vote for them, how can you ever hope to beat them?

[ronaldo7]

Matt Dathan
@matt_dathan
In an interview w/
@thetimes
, Nick Thomas-Symonds:
- Announces return to Tony Blair's "tough on crime, tough on causes of crime" mantra

- Vows to continue Govt's controversial deportation flights if Lab wins power

- Vows never to bring back free movement

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-revives-blairs-policy-on-crime-jsv5vhv0n

They've gone full Tory Lite.

The only thing they forgot was the mugs.

25140

[Hiber-nation]

I've given up being angry about Labour's ineptitude. It's far more rewarding to have a good laugh at how toe-curlingly embarrassing the conference has been, not forgetting the awful Starmer and Reeves TV interviews the other day.

[One Day Soon]

I've given up being angry about Labour's ineptitude. It's far more rewarding to have a good laugh at how toe-curlingly embarrassing the conference has been, not forgetting the awful Starmer and Reeves TV interviews the other day.

You can add David Lammy being skewered on Trans issues on Radio 4 this morning to that list. Though to be fair I think Trans rights are set to become the next culture war issue that will explode slowly but surely across most parties.

[hibsbollah]

You can add David Lammy being skewered on Trans issues on Radio 4 this morning to that list. Though to be fair I think Trans rights are set to become the next culture war issue that will explode slowly but surely across most parties.

I believe he was trying to say that it wasn’t an important issue compared to covid, the economy, education, and he didn’t understand why it was an issue being discussed, I totally agree with him :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

I believe he was trying to say that it wasn’t an important issue compared to covid, the economy, education, and he didn’t understand why it was an issue being discussed, I totally agree with him :dunno:

Agree. The number of people who give a monkeys about this issue is absolutely tiny bit they are very noisy and passionate about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

Agree. The number of people who give a monkeys about this issue is absolutely tiny bit they are very noisy and passionate about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That’s definitely true. I was using various forms of social media, Twitter, Facebook etc and trans rights was a very hot topic, but since giving up the social media I’ve barely heard a word about it. I’m glad I don’t have to try and sort it all out as no matter what happens you’re going to have a lot of angry people.

[One Day Soon]

I believe he was trying to say that it wasn’t an important issue compared to covid, the economy, education, and he didn’t understand why it was an issue being discussed, I totally agree with him :dunno:

Whatever he was trying to say was rather lost in the almost literally hysterical tone of his responses. He's the fourth or fifth Labour frontbencher I've heard being completely derailed by this in interviews and that is going to continue until they develop a position that doesn't end up with them sounding like they are defending the 'bodies with vaginas' stuff.

Objectively it is of course not as important an issue as the others listed - although that depends on who you are, clearly some women feel it is very important. Politically it is already being weaponised against Labour and it's absolutely going to get a lot worse because it is a perfect culture war theme for the Tories to run on until such time as both the substance and the language of the implementation of trans rights is developed in such a way that it is not perceived to be happening at the expense of women's rights.