The future of the Labour Party

[Hibbyradge]

It's a terrible result, worse than I thought it would be, but I think there was a whole number of factors at play and that it's not simply an anti Starmer reaction.

I certainly don't believe that folk have decided to vote "for the real thing" because Labour have moved too far to the right.

One thing that I think is very significant is the fact that so many people moved away from Labour to vote for the Brexit Party and there is now a need to back that up.

Once people make a decision, take a stand or perform an action, they face an interpersonal pressure to behave in a consistent manner with what they have said or done previously.

In simple terms, it's easier the second time.

I believe that this has been a factor in Labour's demise in Scotland too, although the lure of Independence is very significant.

The one certainty is that the Party needs to radically change, how exactly I don't know, but I doubt it has the ability or vision to move away from the historical battle between left and right wings.

This discussion will continue for a long time. Thankfully, I'm golfing this morning!

[Northernhibee]

It's a terrible result, worse than I thought it would be, but I think there was a whole number of factors at play and that it's not simply an anti Starmer reaction.

I certainly don't believe that folk have decided to vote "for the real thing" because Labour have moved too far to the right.

One thing that I think is very significant is the fact that do many people moved away from Labour to vote for the Brexit Party and there is now a need to back that up.

Once people make a decision, take a stand or perform an action, they face an interpersonal pressure to behave in a consistent manner with what they have said or done previously.

In simple terms, it's easier the second time.

I believe that this has been a factor in Labour's demise in Scotland too, although the lure of Independence is very significant.

The one certainty is that the Party needs to radically change, how exactly I don't know, but I doubt it has the ability or vision to move away from the historical battle between left and right wings.

This discussion will continue for a long time. Thankfully, I'm golfing this morning!

It's quite true, back in 2014 I was a member of Scottish Labour and campaigned to remain in the UK (I wanted to remain in both the EU and the UK as at the time it was what I considered to be by far best for Scottish business). I left the Labour party in 2019 when it was clear that Corbyn was bleeding votes and couldn't decide if he was for or against a second EU referendum.

In the 2019 GE I voted for SNP for the first time which was not an easy thing to do. I still have a few problems with the SNP but yesterday voted for them without a thought about it. That first switch though wasn't easy and it worries me that it will take the absolute ****show that's going to happen before people consider switching back.

[SHODAN]

Going centre-right doesn't work.
Going to the left doesn't work.
Opposing Brexit doesn't work.
Being neutral on Brexit doesn't work.
Going British nationalist doesn't work.
Supporting Brexit doesn't work.

The public simply do not see the point of Labour any more. They have made their mind up here and down south about who is going to win their elections for the forseeable future. I'd be voting Green if I lived down there.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Going centre-right doesn't work.
Going to the left doesn't work.
Opposing Brexit doesn't work.
Being neutral on Brexit doesn't work.
Going British nationalist doesn't work.
Supporting Brexit doesn't work.

The public simply do not see the point of Labour any more. They have made their mind up here and down south about who is going to win their elections for the forseeable future. I'd be voting Green if I lived down there.
Going to the left was working absolutely fine. The PLP were the ones who made sure it didn't work, and Corbyn didn't help himself - but going to the left is the only credible option. You can't move beyond left and right - that is what the lib dems are for. There's a reason they have died a death, and trying to emulate their politics will condemn the labour party to the same fate. The only positive to tale from this is that it might be what the workers' movement needs.

People who want the labour party to move beyond the left-right dichotomy are, IMO, in the wrong party, and committing vandalism to the legacy of those who founded it and fought it's most important battles.

[cabbageandribs1875]

tellin yi


get shot of Starmer :aok: or split

[Hibbyradge]

Going to the left was working absolutely fine. The PLP were the ones who made sure it didn't work, and Corbyn didn't help himself - but going to the left is the only credible option. You can't move beyond left and right - that is what the lib dems are for. There's a reason they have died a death, and trying to emulate their politics will condemn the labour party to the same fate. The only positive to tale from this is that it might be what the workers' movement needs.

People who want the labour party to move beyond the left-right dichotomy are, IMO, in the wrong party, and committing vandalism to the legacy of those who founded it and fought it's most important battles.

The old right left struggle within the Labour Party has produced 3 election wins in coming up for 50 years. If you're happy with that return, that's fine.

I'm most certainly not but unless Labour does something different, that number will continue to grow.

I don't want to support a party who is happy coming second, or third, in elections so no, I'm not a member.

[Hibbyradge]

tellin yi


get shot of Starmer :aok: or split

The left won't split from Labour.

Not openly anyway. #militant

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour at least doing slightly better in Wales, very early doors though


14 of 60 seats.
Counting under way.31 seats needed for majority



LABLabour
8seats

CONConservative
5seats

PCPlaid Cymru
1seat

LDLiberal Democrat
0seats

INDIndependent
0seats

REFReform UK
0

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/07/hartlepool-labour-lack-vision-corbyn-starmer?fbclid=IwAR2lyApDWggW-f_p6Yh_CrWG46sYk3odd_d-DF5Yf6JDkDsAWUhA9SeVPPU

[Northernhibee]

Khalid Mahmood - who was until a few weeks ago a shadow defence minister - says: "A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party."They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.
"The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world.
"A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn’t going to fix that.
"We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing."

What absolute *****. The reason Labour are doing so badly is that they're not doing anything. People have lost livelihoods, homes, even lives through austerity and the mismanagement of COVID. We're seeing rampant cronyism and the breaking of ministerial code and yet Starmer wants to wrap himself up in a Union Jack and say nothing. A party that stands for nothing and falls for everything, every single trap that the Tories have laid for Labour in the last few years they've stumbled into.

Maybe if they listened to people as to what they want from their Labour party, adopted that as their direction and united behind it they'd get somewhere. As it is, I have literally no idea what they want, how they will do it or when they will get there.

It doesn't matter if it's left wing or central politics they go for. Pick one, get behind it and follow through with it. Challenge the government. Be an actual opposition.

[Ozyhibby]

Going centre-right doesn't work.
Going to the left doesn't work.
Opposing Brexit doesn't work.
Being neutral on Brexit doesn't work.
Going British nationalist doesn't work.
Supporting Brexit doesn't work.

The public simply do not see the point of Labour any more. They have made their mind up here and down south about who is going to win their elections for the forseeable future. I'd be voting Green if I lived down there.

Does Starmer have a team behind him at all? When Blair came in, it felt like a project with about 20 odd people all working flat out to make Labour electable. Don’t get that impression with Starmer. Seems to be just him?


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[hibsbollah]

Does Starmer have a team behind him at all? When Blair came in, it felt like a project with about 20 odd people all working flat out to make Labour electable. Don’t get that impression with Starmer. Seems to be just him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mandelson. Which says it all.

[Future17]

Mandelson. Which says it all.

That explains why he was blaming Corbyn for Hartlepool.

[Bostonhibby]

What absolute *****. The reason Labour are doing so badly is that they're not doing anything. People have lost livelihoods, homes, even lives through austerity and the mismanagement of COVID. We're seeing rampant cronyism and the breaking of ministerial code and yet Starmer wants to wrap himself up in a Union Jack and say nothing. A party that stands for nothing and falls for everything, every single trap that the Tories have laid for Labour in the last few years they've stumbled into.

Maybe if they listened to people as to what they want from their Labour party, adopted that as their direction and united behind it they'd get somewhere. As it is, I have literally no idea what they want, how they will do it or when they will get there.

It doesn't matter if it's left wing or central politics they go for. Pick one, get behind it and follow through with it. Challenge the government. Be an actual opposition.[emoji106]

Nail, hammer, heid.



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[neil7908]

Starmer clearly not learning. Now the chat is moving HQ out of London.

But what do you stand for? What are your policies? We know you aren't Jeremy Corbyn, we know who aren't a big fan of sleaze but want is your vision?

This just seems another version of wrapping yourself in the Union Jack and wearing a tie - empty gestures that will convince no one.

[neil7908]

What absolute *****. The reason Labour are doing so badly is that they're not doing anything. People have lost livelihoods, homes, even lives through austerity and the mismanagement of COVID. We're seeing rampant cronyism and the breaking of ministerial code and yet Starmer wants to wrap himself up in a Union Jack and say nothing. A party that stands for nothing and falls for everything, every single trap that the Tories have laid for Labour in the last few years they've stumbled into.

Maybe if they listened to people as to what they want from their Labour party, adopted that as their direction and united behind it they'd get somewhere. As it is, I have literally no idea what they want, how they will do it or when they will get there.

It doesn't matter if it's left wing or central politics they go for. Pick one, get behind it and follow through with it. Challenge the government. Be an actual opposition.

Agreed. That's embarrassing. They are literally the only people left voting for you and you've just given them the middle finger in the most Trumpian way possible. He and his party seem to think the best way to win is being Tory lite and pishing on their supporters.

[Hibrandenburg]

Starmer clearly not learning. Now the chat is moving HQ out of London.

But what do you stand for? What are your policies? We know you aren't Jeremy Corbyn, we know who aren't a big fan of sleaze but want is your vision?

This just seems another version of wrapping yourself in the Union Jack and wearing a tie - empty gestures that will convince no one.

Unfortunately wrapping themselves in the Union Flag and wearing a tie whilst offering empty gestures has worked wonders for their opposition.

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://youtu.be/lFN02Lt-2BY

"We have changed".

Changed into what? It's a reversion to Blair and Thatcherism-light. Give the electorate something to believe in. If people want Tory values, they can vote Tory, but what's the alternative path? Power for its own sake is meaningless.

[Glory Lurker]

But, but you have more in common with a worker in Hartlepool than you do with a crofter on Skye. Thanks for that, Labour.

[cabbageandribs1875]

labour have done very well in wales

Welsh Parliament election 2021 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cqwn14k92zwt/welsh-parliament-election-2021)


Labour are within grasp of making history in Wales, as they edge closer to a majority in the Senedd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57009547). On Friday night, the party had secured 28 seats, despite a strong battle from the Conservatives. The party would need 31 to secure a majority in the Welsh Parliament, something no party has ever managed in its history. The final results will be announced on Saturday, when the last of the regional seats will be declared


pity plaid cymru couldn't pick up more Tory seats

[Callum_62]

Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party
Total seats
0
Change
0


LOL - a version of them running in all devolved parliaments?

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[Ozyhibby]

Starmer reminds me of Brown. Waited so long to be leader that by the time he got there, he had forgot why he wanted to be leader.


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[Crunchie]

Starmer reminds me of Brown. Waited so long to be leader that by the time he got there, he had forgot why he wanted to be leader.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's no comparison there at all, Starmer is a rookie compared to Brown. I doubt he's been an MP as long as Brown was deputy PM.

[lucky]

All 3 parties have done well where they are seen as the government and probably have been give a bounce due to the supposed good handling of the pandemic.

In Scotland, Labour are squeezed by Nationalism v Unionism, Sarwar was clear he was against another referendum but tried to only talk about other issues. Labour have a choice either support a referendum or go full unionist. I’ve never understood why any political party would shy away from listening to the people. If the U.K. is so great for Scotland then win the debate, argument and vote like 2014. I voted no in 2014 but have never classed myself as a unionist. If fact I hate the labels of Unionist and Nationalist, for me its like we are bringing Northern Irish politics to Scotland.

In England, Labour have done poorly because Stanmer has refused to act like an opposition leader. He has failed to criticise or even offer an alternative view on how the country should be run. England voting Tory will achieve Scottish independence because it will fuel a stronger feeling of a democratic deficit because regardless of what Scotland votes we get England’s result.

In Wales, Labour are on course to equal their best ever results in the Welsh assembly. Again I’d argue that’s done to Mark Drafford being front and centre of Welsh life dealing with Covid-19.

[Hibrandenburg]

Clive Lewis just now on BBC news: "We shouldn't be listening to people like Peter Mandelson, the guy who doesn't know the difference between mushy peas and Guacamole". :faf:

[Pretty Boy]

I think Labour are in a tricky position as the areas and people that once made up their core voter base become increasingly diffuse.

In Scotland that sees some people holding their noses and voting SNP and others doing the same and voting Tory. Much like with the EU referendum the Labour Party taking a non position is costing them votes on both sides. There was surely a position for a party to promote a progressive, left wing, internationalist Scotland within a federal UK? A party that is committed to a reformed union whilst still accepting it is the right of the electorate in Scotland to choose. We are way past the point of no return for that option now though.

On a wider point what was once the 'working class' is increasingly disparate. There are people living in absolute or relative poverty across the UK who evidently want change. People can point out that they are looking to the wrong people and venting their anger in the wrong direction, that often verges into mocking from self proclaimed liberals and lefties. It's a change the Labour Party looks increasingly unable to provide. Corbyn had a lot of the right ideas but his rhetoric was outdated and his baggage, real or perceived, made him doomed to failure. The current leadership seem intent on trying to plot a centrist course that, much like their non stance on the issues mentioned above, is costing them votes on all sides.

The other side of the equation is a lot of people from traditional Labour families now have middle class lifestyles on middle class wages. Of course the broad Labour movement has always had a healthy membership among the better off who have a social conscience, however this is a different question. How does Labour marry the wants of a tradesman done good with a couple of buy to let properties in his portfolio from a Labour family with someone working 2 jobs to try and pay the rent and feed their kids? It's a conundrum, especially with a hostile press and and increasingly hostile public.

What I want to see is someone young and angry. Someone who points out the folly of neoliberalism and paints a picture of a better future with a clear concise democratic socialist alternative. Let's talk about UBI, restoring social housing stocks, tackling drug deaths through progressive reform, a national care service, a gradual and controlled return of key industries to state ownership, decentralised local government dealing with specific local issues etc etc.

I'm not holding my breath.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Seems the future for the Labour Party will be dictated by how long it takes the Tory Party to revert to type.

[hibsbollah]

‘Keir is going to take full responsibility for the failure’ says a spokesman....

By sacking the deputy leader as campaign coordinator.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

You couldn’t make it up.

[Mon Dieu4]

‘Keir is going to take full responsibility for the failure’ says a spokesman....

By sacking the deputy leader as campaign coordinator.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

You couldn’t make it up.

Don't worry it will all be fine, Ian Murray has just announced Gordon Brown will chair a look into a new way forward for Scotland, we are saved

[weecounty hibby]

Ian Murray has just said that Gordon Brown is going to lead a group to look at the constitution. And they wonder why they are irrelevant in Scotland and loads of England. Gordon ****ing Brown!! A liar and yesterday's man by a long distance. Remember his vow? Not a bit of it delivered. He will likely propose the same again.

[Hibernia&Alba]

‘Keir is going to take full responsibility for the failure’ says a spokesman....

By sacking the deputy leader as campaign coordinator.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

You couldn’t make it up.

It doesn't look good.

[neil7908]

‘Keir is going to take full responsibility for the failure’ says a spokesman....

By sacking the deputy leader as campaign coordinator.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

You couldn’t make it up.

Wow, just wow.

I'm sorry but that's absolutely pathetic. I've never fancied him much but I think it's clear already he doesn't have what it takes.

[Pretty Boy]

What a ****ing mess.

The country needs a strong Labour Party and it hasn't had one for far too long.

[bawheid]

What a ****ing mess.

The country needs a strong Labour Party and it hasn't had one for far too long.

What country?

[Pretty Boy]

What country?

The UK.

And in future an independent Scotland most definitely does.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Raynor sacked for not clearly delivering the message that it is not clear that the Labour Party have. Looks like the Labour Party have to sink a bit further down before hitting rock bottom. Starmer and Douglas Ross are already both teetering on the cusp of irrelevance.

[Colr]

It doesn't look good.

It doesn’t . I’m hoping this isn’t a kneejerk reaction but part of a wider restructuring which retains her talents.

Going through the ahadow cabinet list, frankly, they’ve been a bit ****.

I would say only Lisa Nandy and Jonathan Ashworth have done well over the last year and some of them haven’t been heard of at all.

Thangam Debounaire is useless at housing which should have gone to John Healey and I was surprised to learn that Emily Thornberry is in the shadow cabinet at all. I thought she might have emigated.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/183509346_10160338526744179_3438836247465366918_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=3AKXws3J3lgAX8wUhb_&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=ffd5db8f37c965559eb30e91ee301c45&oe=60BEAC71

[Hibbyradge]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/183509346_10160338526744179_3438836247465366918_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=3AKXws3J3lgAX8wUhb_&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=ffd5db8f37c965559eb30e91ee301c45&oe=60BEAC71

Nice poster but bollocks.

Is Keir Starmer posh, btw?

[Moulin Yarns]

Sir Keir Starmer

Knight of the Long Knives


https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1391498909235752961?s=19

[Future17]

Sir Keir Starmer

Knight of the Long Knives


https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1391498909235752961?s=19

Tough job for Rayner - shadowing a man who doesn't cast one.

[cabbageandribs1875]

how will this go down with Labour voters :dunno:

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/184522484_4246843075367147_7613961560006116968_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=8C8wgP2vJ4cAX-owi5a&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d7e2c75b3f9ca37383fb7c133b29c787&oe=60C043D3

[Callum_62]

Forget new labour - labour are now the new tories

The tories are the new ukip

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

how will this go down with Labour voters :dunno:

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/184522484_4246843075367147_7613961560006116968_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=8C8wgP2vJ4cAX-owi5a&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d7e2c75b3f9ca37383fb7c133b29c787&oe=60C043D3

Reeves isn’t a ‘centrist’, she’s solidly right wing. Definitely to the right of old style wet or soft Tories. Her record speaks for itself. Starmer looking more and more a Mandelson puppet.

[Moulin Yarns]

You take a step to left, then a jump to the right 😉

[Hibbyradge]

how will this go down with Labour voters :dunno:

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/184522484_4246843075367147_7613961560006116968_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=8C8wgP2vJ4cAX-owi5a&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d7e2c75b3f9ca37383fb7c133b29c787&oe=60C043D3

I imagine a lot of Labour voters will laugh at the pathetic and underhanded tactic of using an article against their Party which is nearly 8 years old.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-rachel-reeves-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[stantonhibby]

I imagine a lot of Labour voters will laugh at the pathetic and underhanded tactic of using an article against their Party which is nearly 8 years old.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-rachel-reeves-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


Indeed

[CapitalGreen]

I imagine a lot of Labour voters will laugh at the pathetic and underhanded tactic of using an article against their Party which is nearly 8 years old.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-rachel-reeves-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Would you say it’s a similarly pathetic and underhand tactic as using an event from 42 years ago against the SNP?

[Future17]

Would you say it’s a similarly pathetic and underhand tactic as using an event from 42 years ago against the SNP?

:greengrin

[CloudSquall]

Would you say it’s a similarly pathetic and underhand tactic as using an event from 42 years ago against the SNP?

New balls please :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Would you say it’s a similarly pathetic and underhand tactic as using an event from 42 years ago against the SNP?

Did someone try to pretend that it had just happened, in the same way the 8 year old Labour Party article was used? If so, that would be extremely pathetic and underhanded.

Or was it always made clear that it was in 1979 that the SNP helped us get Thatcher? That would be accurate and honest.

[Hibbyradge]

New balls please :greengrin

Indeed.

[Future17]

Did someone try to pretend that it had just happened, in the same way the 8 year old Labour Party article was used? If so, that would be extremely pathetic and underhanded.

Or was it always made clear that it was in 1979 that the SNP helped us get Thatcher? That would be accurate and honest.

Is the Reeves article not relevant once again because of her promotion?

I didn't see anyone claiming she'd just stated the opinion in question, but apologies if I've picked it up wrongly.

[neil7908]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-polls-corbyn-labour-b1845588.html?amp

Starmer now less popular than Corbyn at the same point in his tenure. Corbyn had already faced a leadership challenge by this point - I wonder how long until Keir is challenged?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-polls-corbyn-labour-b1845588.html?amp

Starmer now less popular than Corbyn at the same point in his tenure. Corbyn had already faced a leadership challenge by this point - I wonder how long until Keir is challenged?

I think Andy Burnham has already made some 'You know where I am' noises. From within the parliamentary group, I'm not sure Labour have an inspirational leader capable of appealing to both the metropolitans and at the same time the forgotten towns of England.
Lord Adonis yesterday calling for Blair to make a comeback...

[Hibbyradge]

Is the Reeves article not relevant once again because of her promotion?

I didn't see anyone claiming she'd just stated the opinion in question, but apologies if I've picked it up wrongly.

The poster said "I wonder how this will go down with Labour voters" leaving the reader with the headline. There was no mention of her promotion and no explanation after my criticism.

It's the sort of sneaky trick I'd expect of Gove or Farage.

Or Trump.

And I support the SNP.

[Since90+2]

Andy Burnham is a top politician. If he gets the gig and can't turn Labour around then nobody will.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Andrew Adonis on Twitter: "The Tories now have a 15 point lead Time for Blair" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1393112607133941764?s=19&fbclid=IwAR2O2PodLnkrZHoasim2J-X59Gbjp_nXiTqR8-TTYjS7bMj24VsKtQbkumQ)


The Tories now have a 15 point lead






oh my, poor Sir Keir he must be doing something wrong, the Corrupt one has plenty more time before calling for another GE with that lead, but then again he's giving himself more power to call one whenever he likes anyway

[hibsbollah]

This link was posted on Keir Starmers Facebook page this afternoon. The content is deeply unpleasant and racist, but when the leader of HMs opposition flags up this kind of weirdness to (I assume) make a political point at a time when Israel is under scrutiny??

Bizarre. Who actually does the Labour Party’s PR anymore?

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/passengers-in-car-convoy-filmed-yelling-f-the-jews-rape-their-daughters/?fbclid=IwAR1mdIlcnpDKsWCXluDHVteMqxZII80XCLAebN48 zRTTOXoTGHcgohK1L6E

[Crunchie]

This link was posted on Keir Starmers Facebook page this afternoon. The content is deeply unpleasant and racist, but when the leader of HMs opposition flags up this kind of weirdness to (I assume) make a political point at a time when Israel is under scrutiny??

Bizarre. Who actually does the Labour Party’s PR anymore?

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/passengers-in-car-convoy-filmed-yelling-f-the-jews-rape-their-daughters/?fbclid=IwAR1mdIlcnpDKsWCXluDHVteMqxZII80XCLAebN48 zRTTOXoTGHcgohK1L6E
All racism should be called out by everyone, no buts.

[He's here!]

What a ****ing mess.

The country needs a strong Labour Party and it hasn't had one for far too long.

:aok:

I've seen the phrase 'Long Corbyn' used to describe what Labour are suffering from at present and while that's probably part of the problem, in my view you can trace their malaise back to appointing the 'wrong Miliband'.

Burnham's a bit of a tw*t I'd say, but the outstanding candidate for me is Lisa Nandy. Super sharp and one of the few English MPs who has done her homework on Scotland. I caught her on Question Time last week and she took apart that SNP puppet Kate Forbes.

[Hiber-nation]

:aok:

I've seen the phrase 'Long Corbyn' used to describe what Labour are suffering from at present and while that's probably part of the problem, in my view you can trace their malaise back to appointing the 'wrong Miliband'.

Burnham's a bit of a tw*t I'd say, but the outstanding candidate for me is Lisa Nandy. Super sharp and one of the few English MPs who has done her homework on Scotland. I caught her on Question Time last week and she took apart that SNP puppet Kate Forbes.

Hmmmm....I thought she made a bit of a fool of herself. Again. Completely in denial when it comes to Independence.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57267384


This is more like it from Sarwar. His fence-sitting 'strategy' during the election did him no favours but I'm quietly hopeful he can start to really stick it to the Scottish government on issues which actually matter and where they have been found sorely wanting (ie those which can't just wished away by draping them in a saltire). This particular scandal is a very sad one and one which I know Sarwar has personally devoted a lot of time to.

[bawheid]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57267384


This is more like it from Sarwar. His fence-sitting 'strategy' during the election did him no favours but I'm quietly hopeful he can start to really stick it to the Scottish government on issues which actually matter and where they have been found sorely wanting (ie those which can't just wished away by draping them in a saltire). This particular scandal is a very sad one and one which I know Sarwar has personally devoted a lot of time to.

:agree: Mon Scottish Labour!

[Ozyhibby]

Given he performed worse than Richard Leonard, he could do with a bit of a boost.


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[Moulin Yarns]

:agree: Mon Scottish Labour!

Why had that not occurred to me before :rolleyes:

Neither wonder he is so insulting about the Scottish Greens, The party Scottish Labour wishes they were. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Why had that not occurred to me before :rolleyes:

:greengrin

It was in my mind, but I was giving it till the end of the month just in case a reference to Luciferians slipped out. :wink:

[He's here!]

Given he performed worse than Richard Leonard, he could do with a bit of a boost.


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Kezia Dugdale was the Labour leader at the previous Holyrood election.

I'm confident Sarwar will prove to be a significant upgrade on her and it would be hard to for him not to be a major improvement on Richard Leonard who was utterly anonymous.

[Ozyhibby]

Kezia Dugdale was the Labour leader at the previous Holyrood election.

I'm confident Sarwar will prove to be a significant upgrade on her and it would be hard to for him not to be a major improvement on Richard Leonard who was utterly anonymous.

Apologies, I forgot how often they change leader. So he done worse than Dugdale. Impressive.


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[Santa Cruz]

Apologies, I forgot how often they change leader. So he done worse than Dugdale. Impressive.


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...after 2 months as the new Party leader, give him a chance, he's got off to a good start, I like him and I haven't been that taken with any Scottish Labout Leader since Donald Dewar.

[He's here!]

...after 2 months as the new Party leader, give him a chance, he's got off to a good start, I like him and I haven't been that taken with any Scottish Labout Leader since Donald Dewar.

Agreed. Sarwar's the real deal in my view. I thought he should have come out far more forcefully in support of the union during the election campaign because the SNP had effectively billed it as a dry run referendum and any attempt to flag up non-independence issues was doomed to failure. The Tories were significantly more successful in that respect, but may have 'maxed' their support. Based on Scotland's more traditional voting history, what could really undermine the SNP is a more popular Labour party and I hope Sarwar will start to make inroads there. Sturgeon attempted to damn him with faint praise by billing him as a Mr nice guy but fingers crossed he'll show her he's got teeth.

[Ozyhibby]

Agreed. Sarwar's the real deal in my view. I thought he should have come out far more forcefully in support of the union during the election campaign because the SNP had effectively billed it as a dry run referendum and any attempt to flag up non-independence issues was doomed to failure. The Tories were significantly more successful in that respect, but may have 'maxed' their support. Based on Scotland's more traditional voting history, what could really undermine the SNP is a more popular Labour party and I hope Sarwar will start to make inroads there. Sturgeon attempted to damn him with faint praise by billing him as a Mr nice guy but fingers crossed he'll show her he's got teeth.

It’s a difficult sell for him when the trade union movement is moving in the direction of independence and a third of Labour voters back Indy as well. He is telling organised Labour that they are better off with the Tories?


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[Moulin Yarns]

what could really undermine the SNP is a more popular Labour party and I hope Sarwar will start to make inroads there. Sturgeon attempted to damn him with faint praise by billing him as a Mr nice guy but fingers crossed he'll show her he's got teeth.

The only chance that the Labour Party in Scotland will have to undermine the SNP would be to support indyref2.

Sarwar has pinned his flag to the union, and that's not going to bring back the Labour vote.

All IMHO

[Santa Cruz]

It’s a difficult sell for him when the trade union movement is moving in the direction of independence and a third of Labour voters back Indy as well. He is telling organised Labour that they are better off with the Tories?


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I thought the STUC backed the right to hold a referendum, but wanted Devo Max on the Ballot paper?

[ronaldo7]

Agreed. Sarwar's the real deal in my view. I thought he should have come out far more forcefully in support of the union during the election campaign because the SNP had effectively billed it as a dry run referendum and any attempt to flag up non-independence issues was doomed to failure. The Tories were significantly more successful in that respect, but may have 'maxed' their support. Based on Scotland's more traditional voting history, what could really undermine the SNP is a more popular Labour party and I hope Sarwar will start to make inroads there. Sturgeon attempted to damn him with faint praise by billing him as a Mr nice guy but fingers crossed he'll show her he's got teeth.

This is the same guy who voted for tory austerity when he was at Westminster. The real deal right enough. ✊

[hibsbollah]

Sarwar's the real deal in my view.

Ok, but what does that actually mean? What policies does he have that you like? Im comfortable that he has spoken well in televised debates, but what are the actual policies that you like that weren't there before? Or is it more that you just want a party that defends the UK that isnt the Tories?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok, but what does that actually mean? What policies does he have that you like? Im comfortable that he has spoken well in televised debates, but what are the actual policies that you like that weren't there before? Or is it more that you just want a party that defends the UK that isnt the Tories?

https://youtu.be/ya3js1lquD8

That might help you with the 'Real Deal' 😉


I look forward to hearing what the answer is. 🤔

[hibsbollah]

https://youtu.be/ya3js1lquD8

That might help you with the 'Real Deal' 😉


I look forward to hearing what the answer is. 🤔

That is extremely creepy. Especially when he kisses the baw

[He's here!]

Ok, but what does that actually mean? What policies does he have that you like? Im comfortable that he has spoken well in televised debates, but what are the actual policies that you like that weren't there before? Or is it more that you just want a party that defends the UK that isnt the Tories?

I find it ironic how often SNP supporters (and apologies if you're not one) attempt to discredit any of the blessed Nicola's rivals by claiming their parties are a policy vacuum. What policies do most people associate with the SNP apart from independence (which for me is a cause rather than a policy)? 'Judge me on my education record'. Is that not what Sturgeon asked us to do? If voters judged her on that policy alone she'd have been long gone.

As for Sarwar, I think he can make headway as we emerge (fingers crossed) from this pandemic. While rising inflation will be a challenge, we're unquestionably heading towards a major UK economic boom period, during which I suspect independence will become less of an attraction when people start to realise they might actually prefer to be part of that boom instead of backing a half baked independence 'plan' which after all these years has yet to even decide which currency an independent Scotland would use.

There's only so far spitting out the words 'UK Tory government' and the 'people of Scotland' will take you and once we finally see the back of the daily Sturgeon show (thinly disguised as a Covid update) a rival leader with a bit of clout and a perspective beyond blaming Westminster for all our ills will have the opportunity to cut through.

[Moulin Yarns]

I find it ironic how often SNP supporters (and apologies if you're not one) attempt to discredit any of the blessed Nicola's rivals by claiming their parties are a policy vacuum. What policies do most people associate with the SNP apart from independence (which for me is a cause rather than a policy)? 'Judge me on my education record'. Is that not what Sturgeon asked us to do? If voters judged her on that policy alone she'd have been long gone.

As for Sarwar, I think he can make headway as we emerge (fingers crossed) from this pandemic. While rising inflation will be a challenge, we're unquestionably heading towards a major UK economic boom period, during which I suspect independence will become less of an attraction when people start to realise they might actually prefer to be part of that boom instead of backing a half baked independence 'plan' which after all these years has yet to even decide which currency an independent Scotland would use.

There's only so far spitting out the words 'UK Tory government' and the 'people of Scotland' will take you and once we finally see the back of the daily Sturgeon show (thinly disguised as a Covid update) a rival leader with a bit of clout and a perspective beyond blaming Westminster for all our ills will have the opportunity to cut through.

At least there is a reply, didn't answer the question with anything other than


Mon scottish labour 😉

[hibsbollah]

I find it ironic how often SNP supporters (and apologies if you're not one) attempt to discredit any of the blessed Nicola's rivals by claiming their parties are a policy vacuum. What policies do most people associate with the SNP apart from independence (which for me is a cause rather than a policy)? 'Judge me on my education record'. Is that not what Sturgeon asked us to do? If voters judged her on that policy alone she'd have been long gone.

As for Sarwar, I think he can make headway as we emerge (fingers crossed) from this pandemic. While rising inflation will be a challenge, we're unquestionably heading towards a major UK economic boom period, during which I suspect independence will become less of an attraction when people start to realise they might actually prefer to be part of that boom instead of backing a half baked independence 'plan' which after all these years has yet to even decide which currency an independent Scotland would use.

There's only so far spitting out the words 'UK Tory government' and the 'people of Scotland' will take you and once we finally see the back of the daily Sturgeon show (thinly disguised as a Covid update) a rival leader with a bit of clout and a perspective beyond blaming Westminster for all our ills will have the opportunity to cut through.

I appreciate the response, even if you didn’t answer the question :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I appreciate the response, even if you didn’t answer the question :greengrin

🤔😂

[northstandhibby]

I find it ironic how often SNP supporters (and apologies if you're not one) attempt to discredit any of the blessed Nicola's rivals by claiming their parties are a policy vacuum. What policies do most people associate with the SNP apart from independence (which for me is a cause rather than a policy)? 'Judge me on my education record'. Is that not what Sturgeon asked us to do? If voters judged her on that policy alone she'd have been long gone.

As for Sarwar, I think he can make headway as we emerge (fingers crossed) from this pandemic. While rising inflation will be a challenge, we're unquestionably heading towards a major UK economic boom period, during which I suspect independence will become less of an attraction when people start to realise they might actually prefer to be part of that boom instead of backing a half baked independence 'plan' which after all these years has yet to even decide which currency an independent Scotland would use.

There's only so far spitting out the words 'UK Tory government' and the 'people of Scotland' will take you and once we finally see the back of the daily Sturgeon show (thinly disguised as a Covid update) a rival leader with a bit of clout and a perspective beyond blaming Westminster for all our ills will have the opportunity to cut through.

Its not working. Its failed.

We in Scotland want to build a better future for everyone not just the few. Its a no brainer.

[degenerated]

Ok, but what does that actually mean? What policies does he have that you like? Im comfortable that he has spoken well in televised debates, but what are the actual policies that you like that weren't there before? Or is it more that you just want a party that defends the UK that isnt the Tories?I don't think it really matters what policies Scottish Labour have they are never going to be in a position to implement them.
By taking such a staunch position on the union they are a party that have essentially ensured that half the electorate won't vote for them and they aren't quite staunch enough for the larger part of the dwindling number that they and the Tories are courting.



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[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it really matters what policies Scottish Labour have they are never going to be in a position to implement them.
By taking such a staunch position on the union they are a party that have essentially ensured that half the electorate won't vote for them and they aren't quite staunch enough for the larger part of the dwindling number that they and the Tories are courting.



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It’s worse than that. Their position of putting loyalty to the union above all else means that the are willing to sacrifice every other belief they have. They say the want better workers rights but would rather employment law remained with the Tories at Westminster. They want to help the poor but also want the benefits system run by the Tories in London. There is not a single tax that Scottish Labour want repatriated to Scotland. They are happy to talk about a fairer society but are happy to work to prevent it ever happening. They are the conservatives useful idiots in Scotland. Sarwar just the latest to put loyalty to the union above loyalty to the people of Scotland.


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[Hibrandenburg]

It’s worse than that. Their position of putting loyalty to the union above all else means that the are willing to sacrifice every other belief they have. They say the want better workers rights but would rather employment law remained with the Tories at Westminster. They want to help the poor but also want the benefits system run by the Tories in London. There is not a single tax that Scottish Labour want repatriated to Scotland. They are happy to talk about a fairer society but are happy to work to prevent it ever happening. They are the conservatives useful idiots in Scotland. Sarwar just the latest to put loyalty to the union above loyalty to the people of Scotland.


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I've made no secret about the fact I think a Labour party in post independent Scotland would do well, but what about a breakaway Pro-independence Labour party pre-independence? Would they be able to win a significant amount of votes and mix up the Scottish Parliament a bit?

[Santa Cruz]

I don't think it really matters what policies Scottish Labour have they are never going to be in a position to implement them.
By taking such a staunch position on the union they are a party that have essentially ensured that half the electorate won't vote for them and they aren't quite staunch enough for the larger part of the dwindling number that they and the Tories are courting.



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I don't think you can say that with any certainty. If the SNP don't win the next Referendum, Sturgeon will step down. that's when they'll start losing votes. A fair percentage of voters will start looking elsewhere at the next election. No party remains in power for eternity despite a number of posters telling us we're stuck with the Tory's for ever, change always comes eventually, one way or another.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think you can say that with any certainty. If the SNP don't win the next Referendum, Sturgeon will step down. that's when they'll start losing votes. A fair percentage of voters will start looking elsewhere at the next election. No party remains in power for eternity despite a number of posters telling us we're stuck with the Tory's for ever, change always comes eventually, one way or another.

Most of us work in a time frame a lot less than eternity. Tories may not last an eternity in England but it’s close. They have dominated my whole life and it’s not looking like it will end soon. The only way for Scotland to choose a different path is to choose to run our own affairs rather than sub contract it out to England.


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[degenerated]

I don't think you can say that with any certainty. If the SNP don't win the next Referendum, Sturgeon will step down. that's when they'll start losing votes. A fair percentage of voters will start looking elsewhere at the next election. No party remains in power for eternity despite a number of posters telling us we're stuck with the Tory's for ever, change always comes eventually, one way or another.If the pro independence movement loses another referendum I doubt it would make much difference in the level of support for the SNP, whether or not Sturgeon is there.

I think it's fairly safe to say we won't see a Labour government in a devolved Scotland for a very long time, it's far more likely we see one in an independent Scotland.

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[Santa Cruz]

If the pro independence movement loses another referendum I doubt it would make much difference in the level of support for the SNP, whether or not Sturgeon is there.

I think it's fairly safe to say we won't see a Labour government in a devolved Scotland for a very long time, it's far more likely we see one in an independent Scotland.

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Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I don't think you can underestimate the Sturgeon effect though, there's really not anyone who stands out in the SNP as having her political skills or public appeal.

I suspect, and I accept you won't agree and I could well be wrong, we will see a different gov pretty soon if they lose the ref. Quite possibly a coalition of Labour/Green.

[degenerated]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I don't think you can underestimate the Sturgeon effect though, there's really not anyone who stands out in the SNP as having her political skills or public appeal.

I suspect, and I accept you won't agree and I could well be wrong, we will see a different gov pretty soon if they lose the ref. Quite possibly a coalition of Labour/Green.I get that she is popular but i just don't think that a very large number people will stop wanting Scotland to become a proper country just because she isn't at the helm.

Unionism is underpinned by 2 key demographics - the elderly and the staunch brigade. The latter are more likely to vote conservative than labour, except tactically as we have just seen. The former are being replaced on the electoral role by younger adults who are far more likely to support independence.

The support for the SNP is unlikely to fall below a level that would enable either of the two main unionist parties to govern on their own therefore I conclude that short of a coalition then there's little chance of seeing Labour in a position of power in Scotland. Although, that said I wouldn't be surprised if they did coalesce with the Tories if the arithmetic was right.

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[Santa Cruz]

I get that she is popular but i just don't think that a very large number people will stop wanting Scotland to become a proper country just because she isn't at the helm.

Unionism is underpinned by 2 key demographics - the elderly and the staunch brigade. The latter are more likely to vote conservative than labour, except tactically as we have just seen. The former are being replaced on the electoral role by younger adults who are far more likely to support independence.

The support for the SNP is unlikely to fall below a level that would enable either of the two main unionist parties to govern on their own therefore I conclude that short of a coalition then there's little chance of seeing Labour in a position of power in Scotland. Although, that said I wouldn't be surprised if they did coalesce with the Tories if the arithmetic was right.

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We have different views, we'll never agree on this but that's quite normal, Mr SC was a nationalist before I even knew it was a thing.

[Crunchie]

We have different views, we'll never agree on this but that's quite normal, Mr SC was a nationalist before I even knew it was a thing.
The SNP complacency being in in power so long will be their undoing eventually. You only have to listen to some of their politicians and some of the posts on here.

Labour are one good leader away from a resurrection, Ruth Davidson and the rise of the Conservative vote is a clear example of that.

As you rightly say no one party is in power forever, the seethe on here when it happens will be a sight to behold :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I don't think it really matters what policies Scottish Labour have they are never going to be in a position to implement them.
By taking such a staunch position on the union they are a party that have essentially ensured that half the electorate won't vote for them and they aren't quite staunch enough for the larger part of the dwindling number that they and the Tories are courting.



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‘Never’ is a long time. It was only 12 years ago that Labour was the largest party in Scotland and had held that ‘unassailable’ position for 55 years. All you need is some political vision, some smart decision making and political orthodoxy and complacency gets turned upside down.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't vote for Nicola Sturgeon. And I don't really vote for the SNP. I vote for whichever politician or political party will deliver independence. Right now that looks like Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP so they get my vote.

[degenerated]

The SNP complacency being in in power so long will be their undoing eventually. You only have to listen to some of their politicians and some of the posts on here.

Labour are one good leader away from a resurrection, Ruth Davidson and the rise of the Conservative vote is a clear example of that.

As you rightly say no one party is in power forever, the seethe on here when it happens will be a sight to behold :greengrinWhat exactly did Ruth Davidson achieve?

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[degenerated]

‘Never’ is a long time. It was only 12 years ago that Labour was the largest party in Scotland and had held that ‘unassailable’ position for 55 years. All you need is some political vision, some smart decision making and political orthodoxy and complacency gets turned upside down.Labour held that unassailable position pre the massive rise in support for independence, that isn't going away any time soon, if at all.
Even with a leader with political vision and smart decision making, which I can't see any evidence of in Scottish Labour, they are still only appealing to half the electorate.

The only place I see labour actually being successful is in an independent Scotland.

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[Crunchie]

What exactly did Ruth Davidson achieve?

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You need to ask? She made them the second biggest party at Holyrood doubling the amount of MSP's for one.

[hibsbollah]

Labour held that unassailable position pre the massive rise in support for independence, that isn't going away any time soon, if at all.
Even with a leader with political vision and smart decision making, which I can't see any evidence of in Scottish Labour, they are still only appealing to half the electorate.

The only place I see labour actually being successful is in an independent Scotland.

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You might be right. That’s still not ‘never’ is it? :greengrin There is nothing to say that the Labour Party in Scotland will always be a unionist party, it’s only historical accident that’s made it so. Labour moving to an ambivalent or even supportive position on independence would require less of a shift than abandoning clause 4, for example.

[degenerated]

You need to ask? She made them the second biggest party at Holyrood doubling the amount of MSP's for one.And it made absolutely no difference whatsoever

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[Ozyhibby]

You might be right. That’s still not ‘never’ is it? :greengrin There is nothing to say that the Labour Party in Scotland will always be a unionist party, it’s only historical accident that’s made it so. Labour moving to an ambivalent or even supportive position on independence would require less of a shift than abandoning clause 4, for example.

Their trade union backers are already moving that way.

http://www.stuc.org.uk/media-centre/news/1590/stuc-congress-confirms-support-for-scottish-self-determination-but-rejects-super-majority-manoeuvring


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[Santa Cruz]

Their trade union backers are already moving that way.

http://www.stuc.org.uk/media-centre/news/1590/stuc-congress-confirms-support-for-scottish-self-determination-but-rejects-super-majority-manoeuvring


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They want Devo Max on the ballot paper?

[He's here!]

I get that she is popular but i just don't think that a very large number people will stop wanting Scotland to become a proper country just because she isn't at the helm.

Unionism is underpinned by 2 key demographics - the elderly and the staunch brigade. The latter are more likely to vote conservative than labour, except tactically as we have just seen. The former are being replaced on the electoral role by younger adults who are far more likely to support independence.

The support for the SNP is unlikely to fall below a level that would enable either of the two main unionist parties to govern on their own therefore I conclude that short of a coalition then there's little chance of seeing Labour in a position of power in Scotland. Although, that said I wouldn't be surprised if they did coalesce with the Tories if the arithmetic was right.

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I think you might be surprised. Remove Sturgeon as the figurehead and there's not much there. The slimy Angus Robertson? Unlikely to prove widely popular. And if she lets the creepy Patrick Harvie loose in cabinet to stir up the transgender potboiler then things could really start to unravel.

As for your second point, I wouldn't describe myself as elderly or staunch. I'm just perfectly content to be part of the UK and have never understood why leaving it is seen as such a necessity for some. I think that's a view shared by many so-called 'Unionists'.

[Ozyhibby]

They want Devo Max on the ballot paper?

Does anyone have that as a policy? Not sure that has any support at all?


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[Crunchie]

And it made absolutely no difference whatsoever

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That could be argued, but the 13 MP's returned to Westminster definitely made a difference, it kept the dreaded tory in power.

[ronaldo7]

Does anyone have that as a policy? Not sure that has any support at all?


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I can see Gordon Brown colluding with Prince William, and the electoral Commission to get it placed on the ballot paper.

In all seriousness, the Labour party will try to push it, even although they walked away from any chance to devolve any meaningful powers at the Smith commission. Either that or they'll come up with having to have some sort of super majority to become independent.

[Santa Cruz]

Does anyone have that as a policy? Not sure that has any support at all?


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If there's no support then the SNP has nothing to lose by adding it to the ballot paper. They say it's up to the people of Scotland to decide, so they should give us all options to consider.

[Jack]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I don't think you can underestimate the Sturgeon effect though, there's really not anyone who stands out in the SNP as having her political skills or public appeal.

I suspect, and I accept you won't agree and I could well be wrong, we will see a different gov pretty soon if they lose the ref. Quite possibly a coalition of Labour/Green.

The opposition parties said that about Salmond, his charismatic leadership was what held the SNP together and got 45% of the country believing him.

He went and Sturgeon was too weak, lacked leadership. Turns out the opposition and MSM were wrong again and the SNP keep winning elections with figures other parties could only dream about in their respective parliaments, the same with her approval rating.

As the leader of a country she's still relatively young but I have no doubt there are others being prepared for leadership. Its what competent parties do rather than pick the next no hoper on a shortening list of available candidates.

[Ozyhibby]

If there's no support then the SNP has nothing to lose by adding it to the ballot paper. They say it's up to the people of Scotland to decide, so they should give us all options to consider.

Why is it on the SNP to put an option on the ballot paper they don’t support? That would be weird?


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[Moulin Yarns]

That could be argued, but the 13 MP's returned to Westminster definitely made a difference, it kept the dreaded tory in power.

13 out of 80 MPs majority really didn't keep the tories in power.

[Ozyhibby]

13 out of 80 MPs majority really didn't keep the tories in power.

Think it was May’s govt who didn’t have that big a majority. Don’t think the Tories have 13 now.


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[He's here!]

I appreciate the response, even if you didn’t answer the question :greengrin

Scottish Labour Party manifesto's easy enough to find:

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/national-recovery-plan/

By and large these are strong and progressive policies, without the mind-numbing insistence on a referendum plonked in the middle of it.

[He's here!]

13 out of 80 MPs majority really didn't keep the tories in power.

In 2017 it most certainly did. Theresa May had Scotland (or more accurately Ruth Davidson) for keeping her clinging to power. I think they went from having one MP to 13. Without that, even the ill-fated pact with the DUP wouldn't have been enough to give her a working majority.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish Labour Party manifesto's easy enough to find:

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/national-recovery-plan/

By and large these are strong and progressive policies, without the mind-numbing insistence on a referendum plonked in the middle of it.

Lots of vague goals but no clear policies.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of vague goals but no clear policies.


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I think having a clear goal to finish in the top 3 is pretty ambitious 🤔😉

[Crunchie]

13 out of 80 MPs majority really didn't keep the tories in power.
You had me thinking there but as has been said I think you'll find it did :aok:

[Crunchie]

In 2017 it most certainly did. Theresa May had Scotland (or more accurately Ruth Davidson) for keeping her clinging to power. I think they went from having one MP to 13. Without that, even the ill-fated pact with the DUP wouldn't have been enough to give her a working majority.
That's how I remembered it :aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

You had me thinking there but as has been said I think you'll find it did :aok:

Yep, I misunderstood the post was referring to a generation ago. 😉

[Santa Cruz]

Why is it on the SNP to put an option on the ballot paper they don’t support? That would be weird?


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Because they maintain it's up to the people of Scotland to decide what future they want, it's not about them says Sturgeon, if that's the case, why not give us all options?

[Ozyhibby]

Because they maintain it's up to the people of Scotland to decide what future they want, it's not about them says Sturgeon, if that's the case, why not give us all options?

An option nobody is proposing or promoting? Who is going to campaign for it? Should the SNP also put other options on like military dictatorship? Feudal system? Communism? How many options should be on this ballot?


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[Kato]

An option nobody is proposing or promoting? Who is going to campaign for it? Should the SNP also put other options on like military dictatorship? Feudal system? Communism? How many options should be on this ballot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is the bit in bold not covered by the "No" option?

[Santa Cruz]

An option nobody is proposing or promoting? Who is going to campaign for it? Should the SNP also put other options on like military dictatorship? Feudal system? Communism? How many options should be on this ballot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, last post on this, conscious I'm continually repeating the same point and because the options you listed there are ridic. You posted the STUC were backing Indy, or at least implied that. They're not, from what I've read they back the right to hold a referendum and they would like Devo Max on the Ballot Paper.

[Ozyhibby]

So, last post on this, conscious I'm continually repeating the same point and because the options you listed there are ridic. You posted the STUC were backing Indy, or at least implied that. They're not, from what I've read they back the right to hold a referendum and they would like Devo Max on the Ballot Paper.

I said the stuc are moving towards ambivalence which appears to be the case?


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[degenerated]

Why is it on the SNP to put an option on the ballot paper they don’t support? That would be weird?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAn option that the unionists were firmly against the last time around.

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[degenerated]

Because they maintain it's up to the people of Scotland to decide what future they want, it's not about them says Sturgeon, if that's the case, why not give us all options?It's not deliverable, that's why it can't be included. It can only be a viable option if England wants it.

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[degenerated]

Is the bit in bold not covered by the "No" option?:greengrin

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[cabbageandribs1875]

An option that the unionists were firmly against the last time around.

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unionists now desperately want more options to try dilute the yes vote


1. do you want to live in a prosperous iScotland, respected the world over
2. do you want to be controlled by Westminster Tories for a few decades...or longer


aye/nay


Mmmm let me think about it

[ronaldo7]

So, last post on this, conscious I'm continually repeating the same point and because the options you listed there are ridic. You posted the STUC were backing Indy, or at least implied that. They're not, from what I've read they back the right to hold a referendum and they would like Devo Max on the Ballot Paper.

In fairness, his options are things which could be delivered.

We've already got devo max according to the unionists.

[hibsbollah]

Scottish Labour Party manifesto's easy enough to find:

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/national-recovery-plan/

By and large these are strong and progressive policies, without the mind-numbing insistence on a referendum plonked in the middle of it.

Which policies do you like?

[lucky]

So, last post on this, conscious I'm continually repeating the same point and because the options you listed there are ridic. You posted the STUC were backing Indy, or at least implied that. They're not, from what I've read they back the right to hold a referendum and they would like Devo Max on the Ballot Paper.

This is the STUC position and was confirmed at congress last month

[Santa Cruz]

This is the STUC position and was confirmed at congress last month

Sorry, I'm not clear. The STUC confirmed they back Independence or Devo Max as an alternative?

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry, I'm not clear. The STUC confirmed they back Independence or Devo Max as an alternative?

The resolution at their congress was pretty lengthy but I think the summary is that they back the right of Holyrood to hold an indyref, they would like a devo max option on the ballot and they don't take a position on which option to choose at present.

[Moulin Yarns]

No place on the Scottish labour front bench for Richard Leonard. Jackie Baillie gets 3 jobs.

[Santa Cruz]

No place on the Scottish labour front bench for Richard Leonard. Jackie Baillie gets 3 jobs.

She'll cope. Look at Sturgeon, she does about 12 jobs, or however many cabinet positions there is these days.:na na:

[Santa Cruz]

The resolution at their congress was pretty lengthy but I think the summary is that they back the right of Holyrood to hold an indyref, they would like a devo max option on the ballot and they don't take a position on which option to choose at present.

Thanks.

[hibsbollah]

Starmer is being interviewed on Piers Morgan’s ITV gaff tomorrow.

[Future17]

Starmer is being interviewed on Piers Morgan’s ITV gaff tomorrow.

Was on tonight apparently:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57321990

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/sarwar-leaders-forum-could-get-labour-back-into-power


Sarwar proposes a talking shop to get scottish labour back into power. It's almost like they don't already talk to each other already? If they don't then why not? Could it be because Labour in London has no interest in what happens to Labour in Scotland or Wales?

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/sarwar-leaders-forum-could-get-labour-back-into-power


Sarwar proposes a talking shop to get scottish labour back into power. It's almost like they don't already talk to each other already? If they don't then why not? Could it be because Labour in London has no interest in what happens to Labour in Scotland or Wales?

And why make the call publicly? Why not just get in touch with them all privately?


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[Moulin Yarns]

And why make the call publicly? Why not just get in touch with them all privately?


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Probably because his number is blocked 😉

[neil7908]

Was on tonight apparently:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57321990

And the vision of the future for Keir Starmer's Labour is... Tony Blair's New Labour 2.0. Great stuff 🙄

[CloudSquall]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/sarwar-leaders-forum-could-get-labour-back-into-power


Sarwar proposes a talking shop to get scottish labour back into power. It's almost like they don't already talk to each other already? If they don't then why not? Could it be because Labour in London has no interest in what happens to Labour in Scotland or Wales?

“People in Sheffield have the same aspirations for their families as those in Glasgow, Swansea or London,"


Ok, and what makes these shared aspirations so different to those of the citizens of Oslo, Budapest, and Madrid that we need a political union with rUK and not with Norway etc?


This type of argument only goes to prove that for Labour nationalism is bad if the border is at Gretna but the best thing since sliced bread if the border is at Dover.

[He's here!]

Was on tonight apparently:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57321990


I think Starmer is a decent enough bloke at heart and I thought he got off to a sound start as Labour leader by really getting in about the poisonous scourge of anti-Semitism which took such root under Corbyn's watch. However, like many of the so-called 'metropolitan elite' he brought a lot of baggage with him in relation to to his smug 'I know better than the electorate' stance on Brexit and as such many leave-voting Labour voters simply won't warm to him. While his background suggests otherwise, I also suspect his title gives him an air of elitism/poshness among the hard Left.

I've said it before, but they Lisa Nandy's the one they should have turned to.

[Santa Cruz]

I think Starmer is a decent enough bloke at heart and I thought he got off to a sound start as Labour leader by really getting in about the poisonous scourge of anti-Semitism which took such root under Corbyn's watch. However, like many of the so-called 'metropolitan elite' he brought a lot of baggage with him in relation to to his smug 'I know better than the electorate' stance on Brexit and as such many leave-voting Labour voters simply won't warm to him. While his background suggests otherwise, I also suspect his title gives him an air of elitism/poshness among the hard Left.

I've said it before, but they Lisa Nandy's the one they should have turned to.

I was hoping the NHS England CEO would go back to politics when his current role ended, he was quite impressive when speaking at the UK Briefings, more so than the numpty politicians. Not to be, I'm sure I read he's of to the Lord's.

[He's here!]

Jeez, it's this sort of ill-advised stunt from the Labour woke brigade that makes Starmer's attempts to regain some respect for the party all the more challenging:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-dawn-butler-gets-wrong-about-stonewall

[Moulin Yarns]

Jeez, it's this sort of ill-advised stunt from the Labour woke brigade that makes Starmer's attempts to regain some respect for the party all the more challenging:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-dawn-butler-gets-wrong-about-stonewall

Ha, ha. Spectacular fail :greengrin

[He's here!]

Ha, ha. Spectacular fail :greengrin

Not directly linked to the future of the Labour Party, but this latest from Stonewall is mind-boggling (in my view). I've cut and pasted it from the Associated Press website which for some reason I can't link to:

Stonewall has advised organisations to replace the term mother with “parent who has given birth” to help boost their ranking on an equality leaderboard.
The LGBT+ charity has advised employers wishing to be included on their Workplace Equality Index that they must remove all gendered language, and allow those who self-identify as a woman to use female toilets and changing rooms. The word “father” is also to be avoided, as part of the push towards gender-neutral language.

[degenerated]

The Scottish branch office revert to type quite quickly again.


Anas Sarwar, manifesto commitment from a month ago.

"We support further devolution of powers to Holyrood including borrowing and employment rights"

Ana's Sarwar today, as he follows the well trodden path and falls into line behind the Tories.

"Employment powers are incredibly serious issues which shouldn’t be *bandied around…we’re seeing SNP pick a predictable political fight"

Little wonder they are where they are.

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[Ozyhibby]

The Scottish branch office revert to type quite quickly again.


Anas Sarwar, manifesto commitment from a month ago.

"We support further devolution of powers to Holyrood including borrowing and employment rights"

Ana's Sarwar today, as he follows the well trodden path and falls into line behind the Tories.

"Employment powers are incredibly serious issues which shouldn’t be *bandied around…we’re seeing SNP pick a predictable political fight"

Little wonder they are where they are.

Sent from my CPH2009 using Tapatalk

Any party of the left which gives voters the nod and the wink that voting Tory is ok where they can beat the SNP is finished anyway.


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[hibsbollah]

Jeez, it's this sort of ill-advised stunt from the Labour woke brigade that makes Starmer's attempts to regain some respect for the party all the more challenging:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-dawn-butler-gets-wrong-about-stonewall

How does the ‘woke brigade’ differ from the ‘woke wolves’? Or is it just a steaming pile of *****?

[G B Young]

Great win for the Lib Dems in yesterday's by-election but perhaps the most shocking aspect of the result was the Labour showing. 622 votes! The party's worst ever by-election performance. Couple that with them losing Hartlepool to the Tories last month for the first time in the constituency's history and you begin to seriously wonder whether there IS any future for the Labour Party.

Sure there will have been a lot of tactical voting, similar to what we saw in Scotland to thwart an SNP majority, but Starmer must nevertheless be wondering if the party's support base is collapsing from under him.

[Moulin Yarns]

Great win for the Lib Dems in yesterday's by-election but perhaps the most shocking aspect of the result was the Labour showing. 622 votes! The party's worst ever by-election performance. Couple that with them losing Hartlepool to the Tories last month for the first time in the constituency's history and you begin to seriously wonder whether there IS any future for the Labour Party.

Sure there will have been a lot of tactical voting, similar to what we saw in Scotland to thwart an SNP majority, but Starmer must nevertheless be wondering if the party's support base is collapsing from under him.

4th, behind the Greens :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

Great win for the Lib Dems in yesterday's by-election but perhaps the most shocking aspect of the result was the Labour showing. 622 votes! The party's worst ever by-election performance. Couple that with them losing Hartlepool to the Tories last month for the first time in the constituency's history and you begin to seriously wonder whether there IS any future for the Labour Party.

Sure there will have been a lot of tactical voting, similar to what we saw in Scotland to thwart an SNP majority, but Starmer must nevertheless be wondering if the party's support base is collapsing from under him.

I read somewhere that there are 600 Labour Party members in the constituency as well. If you are a Labour type you can only hope that tactical voting has taken place. If not they are in a worse state than first thought

[Just Alf]

622 votes, probably lucky to get their deposit back!

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[He's here!]

622 votes, probably lucky to get their deposit back!

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They failed to get their deposit back. That's got to be unprecedented.

[hibsbollah]

4th, behind the Greens :greengrin

It’s really a triumph for progressive tactical voting. The Tory vote fell 20%, which mostly went to the LDs directly and wiped out the Tory majority, but the remaining 10% swing which gave that big 8000 majority came from ex Labour voters voting tactically, and Green voters doing the same (the Green vote actually went down from the last election in that constituency which is surprising since polls are showing their support among the young going up massively at the expense of Labour since 2019). As the Tories are becoming ever more extreme and no proper opposition looking likely any time soon, the progressive alliance idea is the only hope if you’re a left leaning English voter.

[He's here!]

It’s really a triumph for progressive tactical voting. The Tory vote fell 20%, which mostly went to the LDs directly and wiped out the Tory majority, but the remaining 10% swing which gave that big 8000 majority came from ex Labour voters voting tactically, and Green voters doing the same (the Green vote actually went down from the last election in that constituency which is surprising since polls are showing their support among the young going up massively at the expense of Labour since 2019). As the Tories are becoming ever more extreme and no proper opposition looking likely any time soon, the progressive alliance idea is the only hope if you’re a left leaning English voter.

And yet if you don't regard independence as 'progressive' and admit to having voted tactically in the Holyrood elections to register that view you get shot down by the nationalist posters on here :wink:

I'm also a bit surprised the Green vote went down as the core issue around this by-election was the continued disruption/destruction of the countryside by construction of the high-speed rail link (a project which the Lib Dems actually backed nationally but campaigned against locally). Perhaps a tactical 'protest' switch to the Lib Dems by so many Tory voters was an easier step for them to make than voting Green.

[Crunchie]

Bercow has joined Labour :faf:

[ronaldo7]

Bercow has joined Labour :faf:

Bercow for leader. 👍

[heretoday]

Bercow for leader. 👍

He'd certainly drown out everyone else!

[neil7908]

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy Burnham?

I think he has a bit of a cheek asking for compensation from Sturgeon when it's his own people who have led the massive surge in cases from the new Delta variant. Maybe the rest of England should be asking Manchester for compensation due to extension of lockdown?

[Ozyhibby]

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy Burnham?

I think he has a bit of a cheek asking for compensation from Sturgeon when it's his own people who have led the massive surge in cases from the new Delta variant. Maybe the rest of England should be asking Manchester for compensation due to extension of lockdown?

I still think of him as the idiot who asked his mp supporters to back a Corbyn candidacy in order that left wing voices could be heard in the 2015 Labour leadership campaign. No Burnham, no Corbyn. We would all have been better off.


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[Hiber-nation]

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy Burnham?

I think he has a bit of a cheek asking for compensation from Sturgeon when it's his own people who have led the massive surge in cases from the new Delta variant. Maybe the rest of England should be asking Manchester for compensation due to extension of lockdown?

Double standards my arse. Hopeless on the Nick Robinson programme.

[hibsbollah]

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy Burnham?

I think he has a bit of a cheek asking for compensation from Sturgeon when it's his own people who have led the massive surge in cases from the new Delta variant. Maybe the rest of England should be asking Manchester for compensation due to extension of lockdown?

Much like Starmer before he became leader, he’s done and said a range of things in his career that could be seen as a sign that’s he’s from either wing of the party. Says he’s a socialist but an ‘aspirational’ socialist. He’s very keen on devolving power away from Westminster, but also very keen on stamping out ‘nationalism’, which he seems to talk about a lot. Very dodgy green credentials, supports the expansion of airports, ‘clean’ coal etc. Understands football, did good stuff post Hillsborough. Progressive on social issues, but likes his soldiering; voted for Iraq War and against an investigation into it, support trident replacement, threatened to resign if Labour supported leaving NATO. Mr North.

[hibsbollah]

It’s really a triumph for progressive tactical voting. The Tory vote fell 20%, which mostly went to the LDs directly and wiped out the Tory majority, but the remaining 10% swing which gave that big 8000 majority came from ex Labour voters voting tactically, and Green voters doing the same (the Green vote actually went down from the last election in that constituency which is surprising since polls are showing their support among the young going up massively at the expense of Labour since 2019). As the Tories are becoming ever more extreme and no proper opposition looking likely any time soon, the progressive alliance idea is the only hope if you’re a left leaning English voter.

Discussion on this subject now hosted by Owen Jones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k8jsLvXy56U&feature=youtu.be

[Crunchie]

Discussion on this subject now hosted by Owen Jones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k8jsLvXy56U&feature=youtu.be

Owen Jones the compulsive liar? Oh let’s all listen to him right enough 🙄

[He's here!]

Bercow has joined Labour :faf:

Jeez, more of another nail in the party's coffin than an asset I'd say.

[Stick]

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy Burnham?

I think he has a bit of a cheek asking for compensation from Sturgeon when it's his own people who have led the massive surge in cases from the new Delta variant. Maybe the rest of England should be asking Manchester for compensation due to extension of lockdown?

You could turn it the other way. Is he really suggesting that the first minister of our country, who is doing her best to protect our citizens, should consult with an English council before making an urgent health announcement. How self important is he if he thinks that his area is more important than our country. Show some respect, tosser.

[Keith_M]

Jeez, more of another nail in the party's coffin than an asset I'd say.


Why?

[Colr]

You could turn it the other way. Is he really suggesting that the first minister of our country, who is doing her best to protect our citizens, should consult with an English council before making an urgent health announcement. How self important is he if he thinks that his area is more important than our country. Show some respect, tosser.

I wonder if she notified WM?

[degenerated]

I wonder if she notified WM?I would imagine she would have.

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[degenerated]

Why?A guy that joined the Tories when Thatcher was leader thinking his natural home is now the Labour party tells a story about how far right both have shifted over the years.

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[Jack]

I wonder if she notified WM?

If she did, and I suspect there is at least some form of liaison between the two, then it would be upto WM to advise Burnham.

I personally think he's coming across as a typical hate SNP Labour person. It seems quite widespread in that party.

[Stick]

I wonder if she notified WM?

I’m sure it was mentioned yesterday that wm had been advised, I think it was Ivan NcKee on the tely although it could have been John Swinney, can’t remember which.

[Just_Jimmy]

If she did, and I suspect there is at least some form of liaison between the two, then it would be upto WM to advise Burnham.

I personally think he's coming across as a typical hate SNP Labour person. It seems quite widespread in that party.as apposed to NS who's used the pandemic as a political tool to stick it to England at every opportunity?

not really my views but there's always two sides to it.

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[Ozyhibby]

If she did, and I suspect there is at least some form of liaison between the two, then it would be upto WM to advise Burnham.

I personally think he's coming across as a typical hate SNP Labour person. It seems quite widespread in that party.

Attacking NS is popular in England and he wants to be PM sometime. Smart move from him.


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[Jack]

as apposed to NS who's used the pandemic as a political tool to stick it to England at every opportunity?

not really my views but there's always two sides to it.

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Even if that were true what does it have to do with Labour?

[Crunchie]

A guy that joined the Tories when Thatcher was leader thinking his natural home is now the Labour party tells a story about how far right both have shifted over the years.

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It’s nothing ty do with his natural home as you call it, more to do with him not gettting a peerage. He’s a bitter little man who is no more a Labour voter than BJ himself

[Just Alf]

as apposed to NS who's used the pandemic as a political tool to stick it to England at every opportunity?

not really my views but there's always two sides to it.

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I know folk say that a lot, this is a bad example though....

Scot gov says essential only travel those areas.

Uk gov guidelines say essential only travel to those areas

:confused:

[Hibbyradge]

A guy that joined the Tories when Thatcher was leader thinking his natural home is now the Labour party tells a story about how far right both have shifted over the years.

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Along with the electorate.

[G B Young]

Why?

Limelight-loving bragger who thinks he's smarter than he is. Totally over-stepped his role as speaker and made an erse of himself over Brexit.

[degenerated]

Along with the electorate.The whole political spectrum has shifted to the right.
I seem to remember there being quite a good chapter about the shift in Owen Jones book the Establishment and how they get it away with it.

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[Colr]

Attacking NS is popular in England and he wants to be PM sometime. Smart move from him.


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Not if he is counting on winning votes in Scotland. The ba’bag.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6599361]Attacking NS is popular in England and he wants to be PM sometime. Smart move from him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

Attacking Sturgeon and attacking the SNP are essentially the same thing though. Not sure whether she has been rattled or not as she never gave her normal condescending wee laugh before replying. It is to her credit though, that getting the better of her seems to count as a political achievement within the context of UK politics.

[He's here!]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6599361]Attacking NS is popular in England and he wants to be PM sometime. Smart move from him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

Attacking Sturgeon and attacking the SNP are essentially the same thing though. Not sure whether she has been rattled or not as she never gave her normal condescending wee laugh before replying. It is to her credit though, that getting the better of her seems to count as a political achievement within the context of UK politics.

Or she might just overestimate her political clout by trying to claim Burnham sees her as some sort of scalp?

[Hibbyradge]

[QUOTE=NORTHERNHIBBY;6599647]

Or she might just overestimate her political clout by trying to claim Burnham sees her as some sort of scalp?

Is she?

[G B Young]

Discussion on this subject now hosted by Owen Jones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k8jsLvXy56U&feature=youtu.be

Or it could be that since Corbyn departed the scene Johnson is simply having to work harder to keep the south of England on board? When Corbynism was still a thing all he had to do was dangle the threat of Marxism before them to ensure their votes. Now that they see him directing his energies towards a 'levelling up' agenda in the north they feel emboldened to make their disapproval known by voting Lib Dem (a 'safe' protest vote that probably wouldn't translate to a general election).

[hibsbollah]

Or it could be that since Corbyn departed the scene Johnson is simply having to work harder to keep the south of England on board? When Corbynism was still a thing all he had to do was dangle the threat of Marxism before them to ensure their votes. Now that they see him directing his energies towards a 'levelling up' agenda in the north they feel emboldened to make their disapproval known by voting Lib Dem (a 'safe' protest vote that probably wouldn't translate to a general election).

‘On board??’ The hedge fund belt were never on board with Starmer, or any other Labour leader and they never will be. The interesting conversation isn’t how far right Labour can go to chase a chimera of appealing to Tories, but the possibility of the majority of U.K. citizens that are, you know, actually not Tories, voting negatively for a positive outcome.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=NORTHERNHIBBY;6599647]

Or she might just overestimate her political clout by trying to claim Burnham sees her as some sort of scalp?

Either way, constants attacks from south of the borders do her no harm. Keep them coming. Sarwar must need a bit of help from the big boys.


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[Jack]

[QUOTE=He's here!;6599658]

Either way, constants attacks from south of the borders do her no harm. Keep them coming. Sarwar must need a bit of help from the big boys.


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I wonder if Burham let Sarwar know he was going to rip in to Sturgeon.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

[QUOTE=He's here!;6599658]

Either way, constants attacks from south of the borders do her no harm. Keep them coming. Sarwar must need a bit of help from the big boys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's one of the biggest shifts that taking potshots at the leader of the SNP and hoping that they land is now credible political currency. Albeit that I don't have a lot of time for her politics, not accepting that she is an accomplished political animal is pure folly.

[neil7908]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6599814]

It's one of the biggest shifts that taking potshots at the leader of the SNP and hoping that they land is now credible political currency. Albeit that I don't have a lot of time for her politics, not accepting that she is an accomplished political animal is pure folly.

It's as clear a sign as ever that Labour have given up completely in Scotland and are now just playing for the 'blue wall' English voters.

Interesting that Muslim Labour voters are now also complaining about being insulted, ignored and Islamaphobia being tolerated.

No interest in a broad coalition anymore.

[Stairway 2 7]

[QUOTE=NORTHERNHIBBY;6599840]

It's as clear a sign as ever that Labour have given up completely in Scotland and are now just playing for the 'blue wall' English voters.

Interesting that Muslim Labour voters are now also complaining about being insulted, ignored and Islamaphobia being tolerated.

No interest in a broad coalition anymore.

Was it the same sign when he was arguing with boris for days when put into lockdown. Probably likes the limelight but tries to stick up for his area it seems

[Kato]

Or it could be that since Corbyn departed the scene Johnson is simply having to work harder to keep the south of England on board? When Corbynism was still a thing all he had to do was dangle the threat of Marxism before them to ensure their votes.

Do you see the electorate as stupid as to believe this?

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

[QUOTE=neil7908;6599842]

Was it the same sign when he was arguing with boris for days when put into lockdown. Probably likes the limelight but tries to stick up for his area it seems

I think that he has got more about him than liking the limelight. Conviction politicians are hard to find nowadays but IMO Andy Burnham is one of them. That he has had to leave mainstream politics to become one is interesting though.

[Stick]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6599814]

I wonder if Burham let Sarwar know he was going to rip in to Sturgeon.

Interesting point from the excellent John Robertson this morning:-
In September 2020 an Elvis Festival in Bridgend, Wales, was cancelled, preventing fans from Bolton near Manchester, from attending and incurring considerable costs. Bridgend council leader Huw David (Labour) said: “There will be no Elvis here meeting them, they will be met by South Wales Police force and action will be taken against people who break the law.”

Mayor Andy Burnham (Labour) did not protest that the Welsh Government had not consulted him and there have been no attempts to sue Bridgend Council.

[Hibbyradge]

Do you see the electorate as stupid as to believe this?

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Certainly. A lot of the electorate even believe that Covid-19 is real!

[Hiber-nation]

Limelight-loving bragger

I honestly thought you were referring to Burnham there.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=Jack;6599818]

Interesting point from the excellent John Robertson this morning:-
In September 2020 an Elvis Festival in Bridgend, Wales, was cancelled, preventing fans from Bolton near Manchester, from attending and incurring considerable costs. Bridgend council leader Huw David (Labour) said: “There will be no Elvis here meeting them, they will be met by South Wales Police force and action will be taken against people who break the law.”

Mayor Andy Burnham (Labour) did not protest that the Welsh Government had not consulted him and there have been no attempts to sue Bridgend Council.

In Manchester in the last year, 3660 households have become homeless, and Andy Burnham wants to take the Scottish Gov to court with council funds.

Priorities eh.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=Stick;6599935]

In Manchester in the last year, 3660 households have become homeless, and Andy Burnham wants to take the Scottish Gov to court with council funds.

Priorities eh.

I would imagine that fingers and toes will be crossed at SNP HQ that he does indeed take the people of Scotland to court.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Andy Pandy is today suggesting minimal travel in and out of infected areas...



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/204445596_4169919936398139_4896366586935608638_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=nmuP2IDi1IQAX8fIsgq&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=27a91c77a71ff203880449d4adb24ad1&oe=60D6AB60

[neil7908]

Andy Pandy is today suggesting minimal travel in and out of infected areas...



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/204445596_4169919936398139_4896366586935608638_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=nmuP2IDi1IQAX8fIsgq&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=27a91c77a71ff203880449d4adb24ad1&oe=60D6AB60

Maybe he'll sue himself?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57584936

Mon Scottish Labour 😁, well, at least one who is hopefully the future of Scottish Labour.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57584936

Mon Scottish Labour [emoji16], well, at least one who is hopefully the future of Scottish Labour.

It’s time Scottish Labour started down this road. They need to get back to standing up for their constituents rather than always attacking the SNP.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210627/df1534a55c5dd7b0ff0af0ecfd997e37.jpg
Sarwar not making any progress so far.


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[hibsbollah]

It’s time Scottish Labour started down this road. They need to get back to standing up for their constituents rather than always attacking the SNP.


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If anything vaguely progressive comes out of the Labour Party at the moment, the media especially the bbc, trails it as coming from ‘a previous key ally of Jeremy Corbyn’, which is supposed to give it an ‘extreme’ label. If it’s a policy that takes the party back 20 years and was designed by Peter Mandelson, it is described as ‘modernising’.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sir Keef getting it tight from labour voters, again

Starmer shredded – for finally calling for action on Hancock, after he had already resigned – SKWAWKBOX (https://skwawkbox.org/2021/06/26/starmer-shredded-for-finally-calling-for-action-on-hancock-after-he-had-already-resigned/?fbclid=IwAR207FyivI91IG4zHBne1OftpLCJe7RAB2DlZ620 fyfX-n8dlK3RDEkN3Tk)

Mass responses and quote tweets hammer ‘Captain Hindsight’ – who said only in February that he didn’t want then-Health Sec to resign

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-keir-starmers-leadership-in-turmoil-as-poll-finds-69-of-members-would-prefer-andy-burnham-in-charge-12345377

More problems for Starmer.


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[Northernhibee]

Labour hold Batley and Spen.

Bookies had the Tory *******s as favourites.

Interesting result that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour hold Batley and Spen.

Bookies had the Tory *******s as favourites.

Interesting result that.

Brilliant one less of those poisonous *******s that expected to walk it. Hopefully when the British nationalism fades from an admittedly great vaccine roll out. Also the chest pumping from brexit should fade when they realise its a disaster. Hopefully then people figure out boris and his evil gang for what they are

[JeMeSouviens]

Every time I think Galloway can’t possibly be any more of a dick he outdoes himself. ****.

:rolleyes:

[He's here!]

Labour hold Batley and Spen.

Bookies had the Tory *******s as favourites.

Interesting result that.

Phew, made it by a whisker. Just 300 votes. Labour lost a lot of votes to Galloway, but that should at least buy Starmer a bit of breathing space as there were a lot of harder left Labour types privately hoping they'd lose. Suspect the Hancock story breaking so close to the vote may have cost the Tories mind you.

I see Galloway is taking legal action to have the result overturned. He's never far from controversy.

[He's here!]

Brilliant one less of those poisonous *******s that expected to walk it. Hopefully when the British nationalism fades from an admittedly great vaccine roll out. Also the chest pumping from brexit should fade when they realise its a disaster. Hopefully then people figure out boris and his evil gang for what they are

The Tories weren't actually expected to walk it. It was a Labour seat and the forecast was that Galloway might hoover up enough of the Muslim vote to split the Labour vote and give the Tories a chance to come through the gap in the middle.

To be fair, the Tory candidate appears to have been a pretty decent local bloke (although with a name like Ryan Stephenson you can't help but think of that tattooed yam) and the poisonous element of the campaign looks to have come from Galloway not the Tories.

I did worry that by fielding Jo Cox's sister Labour were trying too hard to pull on the heartstrings of voters when she has next to no political experience, but it looks to have paid off and it must be a very emotional day for Jo Cox's family. Well done to her.

[Stairway 2 7]

I meant the tories themselves expected to walk it. Also David Davies and Andy Burnham were asked what a defeat means to Labour after hartlepool. By many media posts today a lots saying they only won because Labour's candidate and greens stepping aside, although not mentioning Galloway splitting the vote. I think many in Labour thought it might be a tory win, asking what happens to starmer in defeat. Galloway is an absolute parody of himself now, egotistical arse of a man

[hibsbollah]

A wins a win. Voting intention is static across the UK, Tories 18 points clear according to Yougov. There wasn’t a move away from Labour to the Tories in the constituency, was just very similar to 2019 and 2017, Labour do slightly worse this time but adding Galloway and Leadbetters votes together gives you almost exactly Labours 2017 totals.

Look at Starmers personal ratings though.

Absolutely through the floor.

Without some sort of change he’s clearly unelectable.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/does-keir-starmer-looks-like-a-prime-minister-in-waiting

[ronaldo7]

A wins a win. Voting intention is static across the UK, Tories 18 points clear according to Yougov. There wasn’t a move away from Labour to the Tories in the constituency, was just very similar to 2019 and 2017, Labour do slightly worse this time but adding Galloway and Leadbetters votes together gives you almost exactly Labours 2017 totals.

Look at Starmers personal ratings though.

Absolutely through the floor.

Without some sort of change he’s clearly unelectable.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/does-keir-starmer-looks-like-a-prime-minister-in-waiting

I predict a relaunch.

He's clearly not managed to set the Heather on fire. A few bland statements on what he/labour stand for these days, and hope for the best.

I see Jayda Fransen did as well in Batley as she did in Glasgow. #pleasing

[hibsbollah]

I predict a relaunch.

He's clearly not managed to set the Heather on fire. A few bland statements on what he/labour stand for these days, and hope for the best.

I see Jayda Fransen did as well in Batley as she did in Glasgow. #pleasing

50 votes :faf: Well beaten by the monster loonies. In a seat with racial tension you couldn’t have handpicked better for the fascist vote.

It’s peculiar that despite clearly having problems with the extreme right, that doesn’t translate to the ballot box in England. Maybe those people think they are already well represented by Boris? But it never really has in the past either. And then you look at France…

[Kato]

50 votes :faf: Well beaten by the monster loonies. In a seat with racial tension you couldn’t have handpicked better for the fascist vote.

It’s peculiar that despite clearly having problems with the extreme right, that doesn’t translate to the ballot box in England. Maybe those people think they are already well represented by Boris? But it never really has in the past either. And then you look at France…We have a PM who is a racist. Why vote for a little grocers when a big huge dept store is already in power?

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[SHODAN]

We have s PM who is a racist. Why vote for a little grocers when we a big huge dept store is already in power?

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Yup. The Tories now are what UKIP were ten years ago.

[Pretty Boy]

What is the point in George Galloway these days?

I've never really liked him. His shout them down and don't let them get a word in edgeways approach to discussion doesn't really do it for me. I'd argue it disguised his limited abilities both ideologically and intellectually. All that said though there were times he was worth listening to.

In recent years though he seems to flit between stirring up racial tensions, charging about like a right wing loony in Scotland and now presenting himself as some radical left alternative in Yorkshire.

There's obviously a desperation for money, relevance or both but it's just sad to watch.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the point in George Galloway these days?

I've never really liked him. His shout them down and don't let them get a word in edgeways approach to discussion doesn't really do it for me. I'd argue it disguised his limited abilities both ideologically and intellectually. All that said though there were times he was worth listening to.

In recent years though he seems to flit between stirring up racial tensions, charging about like a right wing loony in Scotland and now presenting himself as some radical left alternative in Yorkshire.

There's obviously a desperation for money, relevance or both but it's just sad to watch.

Money will be the driving force now. You can raise a lot of it to fund campaigns.


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[ballengeich]

We have a PM who is a racist. Why vote for a little grocers when a big huge dept store is already in power?

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The make-up of the cabinet says otherwise. If you said he has a belief in the superiority of English culture and society to others I think that would be more accurate.

[Kato]

The make-up of the cabinet says otherwise. If you said he has a belief in the superiority of English culture and society to others I think that would be more accurate.Not sure about that one, someone can have a mixture of peoples and cultures in their workforce and still be racist.

I dont think his beliefs or the differences he sees in culture or superiority of such carry much nuance.

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[He's here!]

What is the point in George Galloway these days?

I've never really liked him. His shout them down and don't let them get a word in edgeways approach to discussion doesn't really do it for me. I'd argue it disguised his limited abilities both ideologically and intellectually. All that said though there were times he was worth listening to.

In recent years though he seems to flit between stirring up racial tensions, charging about like a right wing loony in Scotland and now presenting himself as some radical left alternative in Yorkshire.

There's obviously a desperation for money, relevance or both but it's just sad to watch.

He was a really fine speaker in his day. Very powerful rhetoric on Iraq and he was also cracking value when he and Brian Wilson did the Just Say Naw tour in 2014.

These days I think he almost comes across as not the full shilling (might be wrong but did he not take a pretty serious beating in a street attack? Did he perhaps sustain a head injury?). As you say, a bit sad to watch.

[He's here!]

The make-up of the cabinet says otherwise. If you said he has a belief in the superiority of English culture and society to others I think that would be more accurate.

I remember laughing when watching some grumpy Corbyn diehards geting interviewed after Starmer took office. In response to it being pointed out that Johnson had appointed the most ethnically diverse cabinet in history one retorted in apparent seriousness that they weren't 'the right kind of ethnically diverse people'.

[Stairway 2 7]

I remember laughing when watching some grumpy Corbyn diehards geting interviewed after Starmer took office. In response to it being pointed out that Johnson had appointed the most ethnically diverse cabinet in history one retorted in apparent seriousness that they weren't 'the right kind of ethnically diverse people'.

I can understand in that one of the point of diversity in public jobs is to make people think it could be them too. For example rishi is a billionaire who'd chose the economy over peoples lives every time. Priti is a ball hair from being evil and enjoys nothing more than "sending people home ". Javid is going to come in and make Hancock look like someone who was overly safety first minded, which is an achievement. Kwazi's main drive is to roll back benefits and keep Britain out eu.

So even though bame people are more likely to be left wing.
I suppose it shows they can have horrible right wing *******s too

[Crunchie]

I can understand in that one of the point of diversity in public jobs is to make people think it could be them too. For example rishi is a billionaire who'd chose the economy over peoples lives every time. Priti is a ball hair from being evil and enjoys nothing more than "sending people home ". Javid is going to come in and make Hancock look like someone who was overly safety first minded, which is an achievement. Kwazi's main drive is to roll back benefits and keep Britain out eu.

So even though bame people are more likely to be left wing.
I suppose it shows they can have horrible right wing *******s too

Or maybe you name callers are just plain wrong in your assertions.

[Northernhibee]

The more I think about the result on Thursday night the more I think it’s an acceptable result for Labour - winning albeit on a notably reduced majority, but it’s a terrible result for the Tories. Two seats in a row that they expected to walk lost and all the impact of the Hartlepool result long gone.

Johnson looks more and more exposed at PMQs and if they want to put it down to Hancock’s behaviour then there’s a whole bucket full of Tories behaving badly to pick from and highlight before any other by-elections.

[Crunchie]

The more I think about the result on Thursday night the more I think it’s an acceptable result for Labour - winning albeit on a notably reduced majority, but it’s a terrible result for the Tories. Two seats in a row that they expected to walk lost and all the impact of the Hartlepool result long gone.

Johnson looks more and more exposed at PMQs and if they want to put it down to Hancock’s behaviour then there’s a whole bucket full of Tories behaving badly to pick from and highlight before any other by-elections.
No Government are expected to win by elections, it's par for the course for the opposition to skate them. It shows you how bad the opposition are if they're scraping by with such a poor Government.

[He's here!]

I can understand in that one of the point of diversity in public jobs is to make people think it could be them too. For example rishi is a billionaire who'd chose the economy over peoples lives every time. Priti is a ball hair from being evil and enjoys nothing more than "sending people home ". Javid is going to come in and make Hancock look like someone who was overly safety first minded, which is an achievement. Kwazi's main drive is to roll back benefits and keep Britain out eu.

So even though bame people are more likely to be left wing.
I suppose it shows they can have horrible right wing *******s too

Or just MPs whose political beliefs don't align with your own?

For truly 'evil' try the likes of Robert Mugabe or Idi Amin.

[Crunchie]

Or just MPs whose political beliefs don't align with your own?

For truly 'evil' try the likes of Robert Mugabe or Idi Amin.
:aok: The way they bang on you'd think they live under a military junta, it's quite laughable reading actually :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Or just MPs whose political beliefs don't align with your own?

For truly 'evil' try the likes of Robert Mugabe or Idi Amin.

No plenty conservative mp are reasonable and balanced although I don't agree with their politics. They have been bombed out of the cabinet and the populist right dregs of conservatism have taken over.

[Smartie]

:aok: The way they bang on you'd think they live under a military junta, it's quite laughable reading actually :greengrin

There are people in the UK who wouldn’t know differently if they lived under a military junta though.

I’m sure it’s comfortable enough in your “I’m alright Jack” towers, safe in the knowledge that Patel isn’t going to rock up on your doorstep in her little uniform for a photo opportunity as you get sent back to wherever they think it is that you came from.

There is a certain irony regarding your strong opinions re what happened in 1979 with the SNP / Labour / Tories that you can now, as an avowed Labour man, accept the nastiest excesses of today’s Tory party so comfortably.

[Crunchie]

There are people in the UK who wouldn’t know differently if they lived under a military junta though.

I’m sure it’s comfortable enough in your “I’m alright Jack” towers, safe in the knowledge that Patel isn’t going to rock up on your doorstep in her little uniform for a photo opportunity as you get sent back to wherever they think it is that you came from.

There is a certain irony regarding your strong opinions re what happened in 1979 with the SNP / Labour / Tories that you can now, as an avowed Labour man, accept the nastiest excesses of today’s Tory party so comfortably.

Not sure what you're banging on about but every UK citizen is safe in this country. I'm not an avowed Labour man btw, bot voted them since Blair and can't see me doing it again anytime soon with the politicians they have on offer.

[hibsbollah]

The more I think about the result on Thursday night the more I think it’s an acceptable result for Labour - winning albeit on a notably reduced majority, but it’s a terrible result for the Tories. Two seats in a row that they expected to walk lost and all the impact of the Hartlepool result long gone.

Johnson looks more and more exposed at PMQs and if they want to put it down to Hancock’s behaviour then there’s a whole bucket full of Tories behaving badly to pick from and highlight before any other by-elections.

Majority reduced by 90% from 2017, vote share down from 43% to 35%, hung on by fingernails because of a uniquely charismatic candidate in the constituency who had public sympathy? Starmer lowest approval ratings ever?

It’s really not acceptable, and is only being portrayed as such by those who are pretending the new leadership isn’t less popular than the previous one. Because that would be admitting they were wrong.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure what you're banging on about but every UK citizen is safe in this country.

www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-uni-lecturer-faces-deportation-13094732



I'm sure they will disagree with that!! And there are many others.

[hibsbollah]

Not sure what you're banging on about but every UK citizen is safe in this country.

Did you miss Windrush on your way past?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did you miss Windrush on your way past?

Obviously just a breeze 😉

[Crunchie]

Did you miss Windrush on your way past?
Everyone agrees that was an almighty balls up, but thanks for reminding us :aok:.

[Crunchie]

www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-uni-lecturer-faces-deportation-13094732



I'm sure they will disagree with that!! And there are many others.
I'm sure just as in any other country in the world there will be individual cases that slip through the net, I've no idea if that is one of them but no system is perfect and is why every party tinkers with it, including Labour.
I think the only party in the world that won't have illegals deported from their country will be the SNP, if we ever get indy it will be an open border policy.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm sure just as in any other country in the world there will be individual cases that slip through the net, I've no idea if that is one of them but no system is perfect and is why every party tinkers with it, including Labour.
I think the only party in the world that won't have illegals deported from their country will be the SNP, if we ever get indy it will be an open border policy.

We badly need immigration in Scotland so I can understand if they did that. We have less kids than the rest of the UK. Hopefully we can get free movement of eu citizens back. Lots of good young workers in who have lots of kids.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sure just as in any other country in the world there will be individual cases that slip through the net, I've no idea if that is one of them but no system is perfect and is why every party tinkers with it, including Labour.
I think the only party in the world that won't have illegals deported from their country will be the SNP, if we ever get indy it will be an open border policy.

We could certainly do with some fruit pickers right now. I passed one of the largest soft fruits producers fields on Tuesday and it was empty when the place was usually a hive of activity in June and July.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/03/keir-starmer-takes-on-tories-with-buy-british-economic-plan?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Back to the 1970’s ‘buy British’ economic policy.


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[Jack]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/03/keir-starmer-takes-on-tories-with-buy-british-economic-plan?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Back to the 1970’s ‘buy British’ economic policy.


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It's a start and 100 years ahead of the torys!

[hibsbollah]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/03/keir-starmer-takes-on-tories-with-buy-british-economic-plan?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Back to the 1970’s ‘buy British’ economic policy.


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He’ll be wanting to bring back the Corn Laws next.

[Crunchie]

It's a start and 100 years ahead of the torys!
I think every British party will endorse buying British, why wouldn't they :confused:

[ronaldo7]

He’ll be wanting to bring back the Corn Laws next.

British jobs for British workers. Where have I heard that before. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

I think every British party will endorse buying British, why wouldn't they :confused:

Because free trade has made us all wealthier over the last 40 years. Maybe buy Scottish? Or buy Edinburgh?


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[Crunchie]

Because free trade has made us all wealthier over the last 40 years. Maybe buy Scottish? Or buy Edinburgh?


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I always make a point of buying Scottish when I can, I wish more would do the same.

[Ozyhibby]

I always make a point of buying Scottish when I can, I wish more would do the same.

And if every country did that then that would be terrible for Scottish business.


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