The future of the Labour Party

[Hibbyradge]

It makes no odds really because I won't vote for Labour until post independence.

And that's my point. Why say something potentially harmful when there's little or nothing to be gained from it?

The vast majority of people who would approve if he said that he'd go on a picket line, will vote Labour when push comes to shove.

I'm like you in that if I was still in Scotland, I'd be voting SNP until Independence, but I don't have that option here.

[hibsbollah]

The world is very different than when the Labour Party was established.

Corbyn said he was a pacifist, there were pictures of him on the front page of the Sun or Mail or both, of his head on a chicken. Those photos were circulating on social media.

That's what you get for being honest. A few folk thinking you're a hero (they would have thought that anyway), loads of folk cringing with embarrassment, and the rest laughing at you.

I have no doubt Corbyn would have said that he'd be on the picket line. I also have no doubt that his showing in the polls would have dropped as a result.

I thought you didn’t want to debate Corbyn :faf:
I take the point, of course. But the tension between electability and authenticity is an old problem.

[Jack]

Sir Kier could of said something along the lines of

I support the nurses, the wider NHS and wider public sector services they should be paid as much as we can afford. There appears to be many billions being pumped into the NHS just now, much of it unaccounted for. It would be good to see it being spent in the right places.

[Hibbyradge]

I thought you didn’t want to debate Corbyn :faf:
I take the point, of course. But the tension between electability and authenticity is an old problem.

I know and you have my apologies, but the example was just too compelling!

I didn't criticise him, if that's anything to cling on to? :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Brave or daft?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-labour-leader-anas-sarwar-23711812

[Santa Cruz]

Brave or daft?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-labour-leader-anas-sarwar-23711812

It will be interesting to see how having an MSP who lives in the Constituency affects the vote. Having an FM as your MSP brings some gravitas. She will win the seat easily. I would think Sarwar will scoop the list seat. I will be eagerly watching to see if he closes the gap.

[Betty Boop]

It will be interesting to see how having an MSP who lives in the Constituency affects the vote. Having an FM as your MSP brings some gravitas. She will win the seat easily. I would think Sarwar will scoop the list seat. I will be eagerly watching to see if he closes the gap.
I think Sarwar will do wel, there is a huge Asian community in the Southside of Glasgow,where he was born and raised.

[CropleyWasGod]

It will be interesting to see how having an MSP who lives in the Constituency affects the vote. Having an FM as your MSP brings some gravitas. She will win the seat easily. I would think Sarwar will scoop the list seat. I will be eagerly watching to see if he closes the gap.

I hadn't realised that he was allowed to do that as well. Not as much of a gamble as I had originally thought, then.:rolleyes:

It will be fascinating, though. Much of it might depend on how NS comes out of the inquiries. If she is smelling of roses, and increases her majority, that might undermine AS right from the start of the new Parliament. And vice versa.

It will also be interesting to see to what extent the smears used against him in the leadership contest will come back into play. I hope that will be zero.

[Santa Cruz]

I think Sarwar will do wel, there is a huge Asian community in the Southside of Glasgow,where he was born and raised.

I certainly hope so.

[Santa Cruz]

I hadn't realised that he was allowed to do that as well. Not as much of a gamble as I had originally thought, then.:rolleyes:

It will be fascinating, though. Much of it might depend on how NS comes out of the inquiries. If she is smelling of roses, and increases her majority, that might undermine AS right from the start of the new Parliament. And vice versa.

It will also be interesting to see to what extent the smears used against him in the leadership contest will come back into play. I hope that will be zero.

Unless I have misunderstood how it works, I would have thought he can win the list seat. He's not long in the post and will be realistic about the election result for the Party. Going forward his job is to rebuild the public's support and win seats back in future elections in Scotland and the UK.

[hibsbollah]

Unless I have misunderstood how it works, I would have thought he can win the list seat. He's not long in the post and will be realistic about the election result for the Party. Going forward his job is to rebuild the public's support and win seats back in future elections in Scotland and the UK.

I’m pretty sure you can stand for constituency, lose, and then get in the list backdoor. But pointing that out would spoil the ‘Mano a mano’ tone of the article :greengrin

I think Labour only hold 3 constituency seats of the 73, so there’s no safe seats that he could parachute in on. Probably not a stupid decision to go into an urban Glasgow seat and fight on an anti Nicola platform, knowing that the list is in the background if he fails.

[Santa Cruz]

I’m pretty sure you can stand for constituency, lose, and then get in the list backdoor. But pointing that out would spoil the ‘Mano a mano’ tone of the article :greengrin

I think Labour only hold 3 constituency seats of the 73, so there’s no safe seats that he could parachute in on. Probably not a stupid decision to go into an urban Glasgow seat and fight on an anti Nicola platform, knowing that the list is in the background if he fails.

Cheers. I think even after 20 odd years, the list vote still confuses many voters (obvs include myself). :greengrin

[Keith_M]

I think Sarwar will do wel, there is a huge Asian community in the Southside of Glasgow,where he was born and raised.


I certainly hope so.


So you're suggesting people should vote for a candidate because they're the same (or similar) race?


I'm sure there's a word for that...

[Hibrandenburg]

So you're suggesting people should vote for a candidate because they're the same (or similar) race?


I'm sure there's a word for that...

I'm glad I read to the end of the thread before making a very similar comment.

[lapsedhibee]

So you're suggesting people should vote for a candidate because they're the same (or similar) race?


I'm sure there's a word for that...

Maybe not suggesting that people should, but that they do? Might that be true? :dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe not suggesting that people should, but that they do? Might that be true? :dunno:

I think it's true, but I don't believe it's necessarily racist to do so.

Voting positively for someone who you think will represent your views, and campaign on the issues that are important to you, isn't racist.

Voting against someone because of their race or colour would be.

[Santa Cruz]

So you're suggesting people should vote for a candidate because they're the same (or similar) race?


I'm sure there's a word for that...

" I think Sarwar will do well...." "I certainly hope so". was my response to that.

[Betty Boop]

So you're suggesting people should vote for a candidate because they're the same (or similar) race
I'm sure there's a word for that...
Wind your neck in, I never said 'should'. I'm sure there's also a word for you....

[hibsbollah]

Wind your neck in, I never said 'should'. I'm sure there's also a word for you....

Nicola got 15 odd thousand votes 61% last time, on a 49% turnout.
Labour got 5 odd (with a different Muslim candidate, incidentally) the Tories 3 odd. So Sarwar would have to swing a third of the SNP vote his way plus somehow pick up more of the Tory vote and a significant amount of non voters (which in almost all cases means the very poor).

I’m not sure that’s possible.

[ronaldo7]

Surely one of the labour peeps on here knows what happened to Hollie Cameron?

[Keith_M]

" I think Sarwar will do well...." "I certainly hope so". was my response to that.


On first reading, I thought your response was to the (apparent) suggestion of people voting for him as an Asian candidate.

I accept that I misunderstood, so I apologise for that

:aok:

[Keith_M]

Wind your neck in, I never said 'should'. I'm sure there's also a word for you....


Thank you for your consideration regarding my neck. I can assure you it's just fine

:aok:


However, you're the one that made the link between Sarwar and an 'Asian Vote'.


If I'd said, 'Govanhill has a lot of white people, so Sturgeon should be OK', would that have been acceptable?

:dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

Thank you for your consideration regarding my neck. I can assure you it's just fine

:aok:


However, you're the one that made the link between Sarwar and an 'Asian Vote'.


If I'd said, 'Govanhill has a lot of white people, so Sturgeon should be OK', would that have been acceptable?

:dunno:

It would be, if we were an disadvantaged minority in an Asian country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's true, but I don't believe it's necessarily racist to do so.

Voting positively for someone who you think will represent your views, and campaign on the issues that are important to you, isn't racist.

Voting against someone because of their race or colour would be.

I think the assumption that people will vote a certain way because of their ethnicity can at least be considered as racial stereotyping.

[Keith_M]

It would be, if we were an disadvantaged minority in an Asian country.


The Employees of Sarwar's family firm, the ones that he refuses to pay a Living Wage to, are mostly Asian, so I can't imagine they see him in quite the same light that people not familiar with the area are suggesting.

There's a fair number of exploitative companies in the area, many run by very well off Asian businessmen, so the idea that voting for one of them just because he's Asian could only be racial bias, and very little else.

[Hibbyradge]

The Employees of Sarwar's family firm, the ones that he refuses to pay a Living Wage to, are mostly Asian, so I can't imagine they see him in quite the same light that people not familiar with the area are suggesting.

There's a fair number of exploitative companies in the area, many run by very well off Asian businessmen, so the idea that voting for one of them just because he's Asian could only be racial bias, and very little else.

It's about minorities voting for someone they think is best place to represent their interests. That's not racist.

It's also not sexist if a woman voted for a woman because she might understand the issues better than a man.

[lucky]

Surely one of the labour peeps on here knows what happened to Hollie Cameron?

She refused to follow party policy during the election campaign or if she was elected. Was given two opportunities to agree to this but said no and gave an interview to the The National against party advice as such she no longer had the support of the SEC selection panel and was then removed as a candidate.

[Keith_M]

It's about minorities voting for someone they think is best place to represent their interests. That's not racist.

It's also not sexist if a woman voted for a woman because she might understand the issues better than a man.


But you're blatantly ignoring the reasons why Sarwar may not be that person and purely base it upon the colour of his skin.

Regarding the gender example: Was Maggie Thatcher a great example of someone that pushed the notion of representation for women and women's rights, or was she a woman that climbed the ladder then pulled it up behind her?

Your argument is very idealistic but not based on reality.

[lucky]

Sarwar is following the same route as many of the existing SNP cabinet. Stand in seats repeatedly and get elected on the list. Build a profile and defeat the incumbent. I appreciate it’s going to difficult unseat Nicola Sturgeon but who thought Salmond would lose his seat and face a criminal trial over sex allegations.

[Hibbyradge]

But you're blatantly ignoring the reasons why Sarwar may not be that person and purely base it upon the colour of his skin.

Regarding the gender example: Was Maggie Thatcher a great example of someone that pushed the notion of representation for women and women's rights, or was she a woman that climbed the ladder then pulled it up behind her?

Your argument is very idealistic but not based on reality.

Hang on, Sarwar's suitability or not isn't for you to determine! It's a valid political argument, but it misses the point.

If he's as bad as you say, he won't be supported. I also doubt that many people would vote Labour if they supported the Tories or the SNP purely because of his skin colour.

Your point about Thatcher is irrelevant. What she did when she won power is a different issue to my point regarding why individuals may cast their vote.

The list of MPs who have let their supporters down is enormous.

[Santa Cruz]

" I think Sarwar will do well...." "I certainly hope so". was my response to that.

Apologies to Betty B. I was rushing when I posted and just re-read my post. I meant - was my response to the poster, not "my response to that" (sounded a bit rude). I understood the point BB was making that AS may well appeal to voters in a constituency that have no interest in the SNP. 49% turnout in a seat where the FM is standing strikes me as quite low. Regardless of her majority I would have expected a bigger turnout.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Apologies to Betty B. I was rushing when I posted and just re-read my post. I meant - was my response to the poster, not "my response to that" (sounded a bit rude). I understood the point BB was making that AS may well appeal to voters in a constituency that have no interest in the SNP. 49% turnout in a seat where the FM is standing strikes me as quite low. Regardless of her majority I would have expected a bigger turnout.

I know where you're coming from but you have to know the consistency that Sturgeon represents. Its home to not only a vast Asian population but also a very significant and noticeable Roma community. Any inner city seat in the UK with that type of make up will always have a low turnout irrespective of who is standing.
.

[Santa Cruz]

I know where you're coming from but you have to know the consistency that Sturgeon represents. Its home to not only a vast Asian population but also a very significant and noticeable Roma community. Any inner city seat in the UK with that type of make up will always have a low turnout irrespective of who is standing.
.

Interesting RH. Knew nothing about her constituency. Cheers for info.

[ronaldo7]

She refused to follow party policy during the election campaign or if she was elected. Was given two opportunities to agree to this but said no and gave an interview to the The National against party advice as such she no longer had the support of the SEC selection panel and was then removed as a candidate.

Thanks for that. I'd heard those in Glasgow Kelvin were not very happy about a new candidate being foisted on them by the SEC. I noticed this doing the rounds.

Reinstate Hollie Cameron in Glasgow Kelvin
SCROLL TO THE END TO SIGN

On International Women’s Day, Hollie Cameron, a young, working-class, Scottish socialist woman was informed by the Scottish Executive Committee (SEC) of the Labour Party that they were withdrawing the party’s endorsement of her candidacy for the Glasgow Kelvin constituency in the upcoming Holyrood elections.

We call on the Scottish Executive Committee (SEC) to overturn its decision and reinstate Hollie as the democratically elected Scottish Labour candidate for Glasgow Kelvin.

Having been successfully interviewed by the SEC, Hollie was democratically elected by members from across Labour’s broad church as Glasgow Kelvin’s candidate, with no votes against. During Hollie’s campaign for selection for the Glasgow Regional List and for Glasgow Kelvin constituency, her position as a 2014 Yes voter and her current views on the constitutional question were made clear. However, the focus of Hollie’s campaign was to be on a socialist coronavirus and climate recovery for Scotland.

Hollie took part in an interview with a journalist at The National outlining her perspective on the constitution and the democratic rights of people in Scotland. Running in a constituency where over 60% voted for pro-independence parties at the last Holyrood elections, the aim of this interview was to get Labour’s message to a significant constituency who have stopped listening to the party.

Following the publication of the interview, Hollie was called to an interview with the SEC and was subsequently informed that her candidacy would no longer be endorsed by Scottish Labour. As at the time of writing, we have not been told the basis in the party rule book on which this meeting was called and the decision made. As at the time of writing, neither Hollie nor the CLP has received written confirmation of the outcome and the reasons for it.

Glasgow Kelvin CLP secretary was then informed that a candidate will be imposed on the constituency. This is a further attack on the CLPs democratic right to decide its candidate.

We call on the SEC to reinstate Hollie immediately.

[Moulin Yarns]

The local Facebook news page has a post from someone asking who the Labour councillor is for highland Perthshire. Lots of funny comments followed.

We have a Tory, SNP and independent councillor and there is only one Labour Councillor in the whole of Perth and Kinross.

[allmodcons]

I'm not seeing much in the Scottish Press :rolleyes: about the mass resignation of almost all officers at Glasgow Kelvin CLP.

Why would that be I wonder?

Imagine the furore had it been SNP Glasgow Kelvin.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not seeing much in the Scottish Press :rolleyes: about the mass resignation of almost all officers at Glasgow Kelvin CLP.

Why would that be I wonder?

Imagine the furore had it been SNP Glasgow Kelvin.

Things That The Labour Left Do And Think is just one of the things that news editors don’t put in the news, unless youve got no other choice. Or it’s Owen Jones.

Also

Any news about unions. They don’t exist.

Any narrative links between severe weather stories and Climate Change.

Any stories from Africa that don’t involve babies crying or large crowds of angry men waving sticks or clubs.

[hibsbollah]

Bent coppers.

[ronaldo7]

I'm not seeing much in the Scottish Press :rolleyes: about the mass resignation of almost all officers at Glasgow Kelvin CLP.

Why would that be I wonder?

Imagine the furore had it been SNP Glasgow Kelvin.

It's only 11 executive members of the branch. Nothing to see here.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/11-executive-clp-members-resign-after-scottish-labour-bans-candidate-from-standing

[Keith_M]

It's only 11 executive members of the branch. Nothing to see here.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/11-executive-clp-members-resign-after-scottish-labour-bans-candidate-from-standing


'The decision came as a panel from Labour’s Scottish executive committee said they were not satisfied that Ms Cameron would follow the party whip, citing her comments which suggested that she “respects the right” to have a second referendum on independence.'

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour Party to back the move by the tory government to take over the running of Liverpool Council 🙄

Leader of the opposition now known as deputy leader of the Conservatives

[Hibbyradge]

Labour Party to back the move by the tory government to take over the running of Liverpool Council 🙄

Leader of the opposition now known as deputy leader of the Conservatives

I'm not sure Liverpool councillors can expect much else given that their officials stand accused of corruption, bribery and witness intimidation.

I doubt that many of them expect the running of the council just to be handed back to them while the scale of the corruption is investigated.

Out of interest, what action do you think he should advocate or support? What action would the SNP or Greens take, I wonder.

I had a look to see what the SWP would want to happen in the situation.

Obviously they want to resist the government, but their alternative? None.

Except, unsurprisingly, "resist with protests and strikes".

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure Liverpool councillors can expect much else given that their officials stand accused of corruption, bribery and witness intimidation.

I doubt that many of them expect the running of the council just to be handed back to them while the scale of the corruption is investigated.

Out of interest, what action do you think he should advocate or support? What action would the SNP or Greens take, I wonder.

I had a look to see what the SWP would want to happen in the situation.

Obviously they want to resist the government, but their alternative? None.

Except, unsurprisingly, "resist with protests and strikes".

I think that if there is criminality then the councillors should face court action, which would, under normal circumstances lead to bi-elections. If that is for the whole council then so be it.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm not sure Liverpool councillors can expect much else given that their officials stand accused of corruption, bribery and witness intimidation.

I doubt that many of them expect the running of the council just to be handed back to them while the scale of the corruption is investigated.

Out of interest, what action do you think he should advocate or support? What action would the SNP or Greens take, I wonder.

I had a look to see what the SWP would want to happen in the situation.

Obviously they want to resist the government, but their alternative? None.

Except, unsurprisingly, "resist with protests and strikes".

How do you think Labour would react if Johnson decided to take control over Scotland and remove devolution again?
Why has a series of by elections not been set up? Surely that's the way to do it. Lock up the criminals and replace them on the council

[Hibbyradge]

How do you think Labour would react if Johnson decided to take control over Scotland and remove devolution again?
Why has a series of by elections not been set up? Surely that's the way to do it. Lock up the criminals and replace them on the council

If this was a Labour or SNP government, they'd do exactly the same. They're not going to take over the council for ever. There will be elections once the scale of the corruption has been investigated and operations put back on kilter.

Similar interventions have taken place in other councils but this hits the headlines because of its size and the fact that it's politically sensitive.

If the intention was to scrap the council and run it for ever, it would be totally unjustifiable. Unfortunately for the people of Liverpool, the previous incumbents have made this situation a possibility.

[Santa Cruz]

If this was a Labour or SNP government, they'd do exactly the same. They're not going to take over the council for ever. There will be elections once the scale of the corruption has been investigated and operations put back on kilter.

Similar interventions have taken place in other councils but this hits the headlines because of its size and the fact that it's politically sensitive.

If the intention was to scrap the council and run it for ever, it would be totally unjustifiable. Unfortunately for the people of Liverpool, the previous incumbents have made this situation a possibility.

Are there not LA elections in England on 6 May?

[Hibbyradge]

Are there not LA elections in England on 6 May?

I doubt that the police investigation into LCC will be completed by then.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are there not LA elections in England on 6 May?

https://liverpool.gov.uk/council/voting-and-elections/may-elections-2021/

[Hibbyradge]

https://liverpool.gov.uk/council/voting-and-elections/may-elections-2021/

There you go. I thought they'd been postponed.

[Santa Cruz]

https://liverpool.gov.uk/council/voting-and-elections/may-elections-2021/

Ta. Solution to the problem then hopefully.

[Ozyhibby]

Ta. Solution to the problem then hopefully.

Doubt it. UK govt taking over for 3 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Doubt it. UK govt taking over for 3 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thin end of the wedge. Take democracy away from local level to central government. (SNP are as guilty with police Scotland)

[Ozyhibby]

Thin end of the wedge. Take democracy away from local level to central government. (SNP are as guilty with police Scotland)

Weren’t the police forces responsible to the Scottish govt before the merger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Weren’t the police forces responsible to the Scottish govt before the merger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, there were local police boards, including councillors.

[Chorley Hibee]

The Labour Party don't want socialist candidates for Mayor in Liverpool, but they are perfectly happy with a Tory Government (steeped in corruption) taking over Liverpool City Council.

Laughable!

[Hibbyradge]

The Labour Party don't want socialist candidates for Mayor in Liverpool, but they are perfectly happy with a Tory Government (steeped in corruption) taking over Liverpool City Council.

Laughable!

The left don't want moderate Labour Party members as leader. They'd prefer a Tory government.

That's not laughable. It's reprehensible.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/166580034_3462713883830599_2396013561336513293_o.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=0WxP87UhwhMAX8kOBYh&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=7468f03ccb3287a452bf245d6d1bf8fb&oe=6084D563

[hibsbollah]

The left don't want moderate Labour Party members as leader. They'd prefer a Tory government.

.

They really wouldn’t. This is pure fantasy.

[hibsbollah]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/166580034_3462713883830599_2396013561336513293_o.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=0WxP87UhwhMAX8kOBYh&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=7468f03ccb3287a452bf245d6d1bf8fb&oe=6084D563

She’s not been that visible, it sounds a bit classless to say so but she suffers from just looking a bit weird in a Miliband type way. Still, it’s easier sacking her than admitting it’s your fault your party is 13% points behind in the polls and giving the worst government ever a free pass.

[Hibbyradge]

They really wouldn’t. This is pure fantasy.

Someone on this thread said that when Blair became leader, they moved their vote to the Greens. That's helping the Tories.

Others have said that they won't vote Labour now that Starmer is leader. Same applies.

Furthermore, I've read people saying "why bother having red Tories and tarnishing the Labour Party's reputation. It would be better to have the real ones".

[Hibbyradge]

She’s not been that visible, it sounds a bit classless to say so but she suffers from just looking a bit weird in a Miliband type way. Still, it’s easier sacking her than admitting it’s your fault your party is 13% points behind in the polls and giving the worst government ever a free pass.


This government is pulling the country out of a horrific pandemic and, sadly, is reaping the benefits.

The last Labour leader gave Labour its worst ever election result against an even worse Tory government with a weak leader.

Isn't it funny how the tables have turned for you and I.

[hibsbollah]

This government is pulling the country out of a horrific pandemic and, sadly, is reaping the benefits.

The last Labour leader gave Labour its worst ever election result against an even worse Tory government with a weak leader.

Isn't it funny how the tables have turned for you and I.

:greengrin Supporting a ‘weaker than nuns piss’ leader in hope over expectation? You’re probably right.

[Hibbyradge]

:greengrin Supporting a ‘weaker than nuns piss’ leader in hope over expectation? You’re probably right.

If I'd heard you refer to Corbyn like that before, I'd have been an even bigger fan boy! :wink:

[lucky]

I think Stammers tactics, wrongly, has been to do very little against the government during the pandemic and look to crank it up this year and towards the election.

[Hibbyradge]

I think Stammers tactics, wrongly, has been to do very little against the government during the pandemic and look to crank it up this year and towards the election.

I think that's exactly what the tactic is, and it's exactly the right one.

Every single attack from Labour just now would be turned around. "We're trying to save people's lives here and you're more interested in bickering about xyz/scoring political points/ playing to the gallery etc etc etc."

The next election is nearly 4 years away. Once Covid isn't the only show in town, people will start worrying about other things. That's when we can better judge the Labour Party's performance and electoral chances.

[SHODAN]

The left don't want moderate Labour Party members as leader. They'd prefer a Tory government.

That's not laughable. It's reprehensible.

Controlled opposition.

[neil7908]

I think that's exactly what the tactic is, and it's exactly the right one.

Every single attack from Labour just now would be turned around. "We're trying to save people's lives here and you're more interested in bickering about xyz/scoring political points/ playing to the gallery etc etc etc."

The next election is nearly 4 years away. Once Covid isn't the only show in town, people will start worrying about other things. That's when we can better judge the Labour Party's performance and electoral chances.

Personally I disagree. The Government have made (or not made in terms of lockdown) decisions that killed people and caused deeper damage to our economy.

It's strange imo to suggest that the opposition shouldn't make a big deal out of literal life or death policy failings but expect that people will get behind them in a couple of years when the argument is about minor tax policy etc.

Corbyn was hammered for not taking advantage of the Tories given the shambles they were in. Not sure how it as should be different for Keir.

Any momentum he had is gone given his approval has dropped. There will always be calls that it's not the right time e.g we are in the recovery phase, the economy is fragile etc.

[Hibbyradge]

Personally I disagree. The Government have made (or not made in terms of lockdown) decisions that killed people and caused deeper damage to our economy.

It's strange imo to suggest that the opposition shouldn't make a big deal out of literal life or death policy failings but expect that people will get behind them in a couple of years when the argument is about minor tax policy etc.

Corbyn was hammered for not taking advantage of the Tories given the shambles they were in. Not sure how it as should be different for Keir.

Any momentum he had is gone given his approval has dropped. There will always be calls that it's not the right time e.g we are in the recovery phase, the economy is fragile etc.

People know how incompetent the government has been, but their approval ratings are high because they're making folk safe.

Attacking them now will not win over the folk who voted Tory last time and that has to be the aim.

[JeMeSouviens]

This might be viewed as a little localist, :greengrin , but I think one by product of Starmer's listless hands-off approach to attacking Johnson is that it must be making SLab's Holyrood campaign that bit harder. What's the point of a Labour party that isn't absolutely livid about that prick in Downing St? How can they go at the SNP when they can't lay a glove on the worst UK govt ever?

[Ozyhibby]

This might be viewed as a little localist, :greengrin , but I think one by product of Starmer's listless hands-off approach to attacking Johnson is that it must be making SLab's Holyrood campaign that bit harder. What's the point of a Labour party that isn't absolutely livid about that prick in Downing St? How can they go at the SNP when they can't lay a glove on the worst UK govt ever?

And after Better Together the last thing Slab need is to be seen as working with the Tories.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

She’s not been that visible, it sounds a bit classless to say so but she suffers from just looking a bit weird in a Miliband type way. Still, it’s easier sacking her than admitting it’s your fault your party is 13% points behind in the polls and giving the worst government ever a free pass.


absolutely :agree: i thought at the time Starmer was the wrong choice, nothings changed my mind

[cabbageandribs1875]

And after Better Together the last thing Slab need is to be seen as working with the Tories.


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not publicly anyway :cbunless it's council elections, they've shown they don't have a problem working with each other, even though council elections have stuff all to do with any independence referendum

[Ozyhibby]

not publicly anyway :cbunless it's council elections, they've shown they don't have a problem working with each other, even though council elections have stuff all to do with any independence referendum

Only a matter of time before they merge in Scotland.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Only a matter of time before they merge in Scotland.


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i've been saying that for the last several years :)

[wookie70]

People know how incompetent the government has been, but their approval ratings are high because they're making folk safe.

Attacking them now will not win over the folk who voted Tory last time and that has to be the aim.

I'm not sure people do know and will likely never be bothered to find out. The Tories won because of Brexit and folk are not willing to change their colours on that and won't be in 4 years time imo particularly when the other choice is someone who seems to agree with those in power.

Letting the government off with some monumental failures and what certainly looks like blatant corruption in terms of procurement is very different from opposing for opposition sake. When this all blows over Starmer can't really refer back to all those failings, the government will get a bounce and they will be able to hark back to Labour agreeing with much that they did for the first year or two of their tenure. Combine that with huge numbers of rabid Brexit supporters who are desperate to be proven right and I think the UK will be Tory controlled for a good few years yet

To paraphrase - For evil to prosper, it is only necessary for Labour Leaders to abstain.

[Hibrandenburg]

People know how incompetent the government has been, but their approval ratings are high because they're making folk safe.

Attacking them now will not win over the folk who voted Tory last time and that has to be the aim.

You could argue that the Scottish government have been even more efficient in keeping people safe, that didn't stop Labour having a pop at Sturgeon. Will that win over SNP supporters?

[Ozyhibby]

Will be interesting in the debate this week if Sarwar focuses on attacking the Tories or the SNP. That will tell you a lot about the current Labour Party.
Will be tough enough for NS with Sarah Smith in the unionist line up as well.

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[Hibbyradge]

It won't tell you anything about the Labour Party except that they're trying to win people over.

They're in opposition. Of course they're going to have a go at the biggest party.

Suggestions that the Tories and Labour will merge is childish nonsense and loses you credibility.

I'd be voting SNP if I was back up the road, but jeezo, enough with that pish.

In fact, you attack Labour so much, maybe it's only a matter of time before you'll be voting Tory. :rolleyes:

[Crunchie]

Will be interesting in the debate this week if Sarwar focuses on attacking the Tories or the SNP. That will tell you a lot about the current Labour Party.
Will be tough enough for NS with Sarah Smith in the unionist line up as well.

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why wouldn't they hold the sitting govt to account?

[Hibbyradge]

You could argue that the Scottish government have been even more efficient in keeping people safe, that didn't stop Labour having a pop at Sturgeon. Will that win over SNP supporters?

Precisely. It won't.

[Hibrandenburg]

Precisely. It won't.

So don't you find it a little hypocritical when Starmer calls for Sturgeon to resign if she has broken ministerial code but not when Westminster Tories do the same or worse?

[Hibbyradge]

So don't you find it a little hypocritical when Starmer calls for Sturgeon to resign if she has broken ministerial code but not when Westminster Tories do the same or worse?

I don't find it hypocritical of Labour. The Tories are the hypocrites.

Labour seems to be behaving inconsistently, certainly, and I don't understand why more wasn't more made of Johnson being found guilty.

I also don't know why there's at different approach generally in Scotland from that a Westminster.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't find it hypocritical of Labour. The Tories are the hypocrites.

Labour seems to be behaving inconsistently, certainly, and I don't understand why more wasn't more made of Johnson being found guilty.

I also don't know why there's at different approach generally in Scotland from that a Westminster.

Get your general argument, 'radge, but come on, Starmer was well out of order calling for Sturegon to resign for even an unintentional code breach.

[Hibbyradge]

Get your general argument, 'radge, but come on, Starmer was well out of order calling for Sturegon to resign for even an unintentional code breach.

I didn't read what he said other than what was reported on here, but I understood he said "if" she had misled parliament she should resign. I think most people thought the same, including Sturgeon herself.

I didn't realise that he said that she should go even if it was unintentional. Did he really?

Didn't Labour abstain on the VONC?

[Hibrandenburg]

I didn't read what he said other than what was reported on here, but I understood he said "if" she had misled parliament she should resign. I think most people thought the same, including Sturgeon herself.

I didn't realise that he said that she should go even if it was unintentional. Did he really?

Didn't Labour abstain on the VONC?

What you say he said is true. However why doesn't the same logic apply to his Tory rivals who have been proven to have misled parliament?

[Hibbyradge]

What you say he said is true. However why doesn't the same logic apply to his Tory rivals who have been proven to have misled parliament?

That's what I asked. I don't understand that, at all.

[lapsedhibee]

I didn't realise that he said that she should go even if it was unintentional. Did he really?


He didn't specifically use the word 'unintentional', but think his meaning was clear: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/19/sturgeon-should-resign-if-she-broke-ministerial-code-says-starmer

[Ozyhibby]

He didn't specifically use the word 'unintentional', but think his meaning was clear: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/19/sturgeon-should-resign-if-she-broke-ministerial-code-says-starmer

His meaning was clear alright. If your Scottish you should go but if not then it’s a thumbs up from Keir.


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[Hibbyradge]

He didn't specifically use the word 'unintentional', but think his meaning was clear: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/19/sturgeon-should-resign-if-she-broke-ministerial-code-says-starmer

What's the difference between breaching the ministerial code and misleading parliament?

The way I read it, Starmer says a minister should resign if they are found guilty of the former, not the latter.

[lapsedhibee]

What's the difference between breaching the ministerial code and misleading parliament?

The important difference is that one is far, far worse than the other.

Which one is far, far worse depends on which one Sturegon is found to have committed, or maybe committed, by Ross, Davidson and Fraser. Starmer didn't go nearly as far as those clowns, but he could have done much better. Wouldn't say hypocritical, but definitely (as I think you're conceding) double standards applied.

[Hibbyradge]

The important difference is that one is far, far worse than the other.

Which one is far, far worse depends on which one Sturegon is found to have committed, or maybe committed, by Ross, Davidson and Fraser. Starmer didn't go nearly as far as those clowns, but he could have done much better. Wouldn't say hypocritical, but definitely double standards applied.

I prefer "inconsistent". 😁

I have to assume that they must have thought their approach was politically expedient.

There's no way for us to find out if they were the best tactics or not. There's absolutely no point asking on here!

[Ozyhibby]

What's the difference between breaching the ministerial code and misleading parliament?

The way I read it, Starmer says a minister should resign if they are found guilty of the former, not the latter.

Aren’t you breaking the minesterial code if you mislead parliament?


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[lapsedhibee]

Aren’t you breaking the minesterial code if you mislead parliament?



Perhaps only if you don't correct your mistake at the earliest opportunity.

[Hibbyradge]

Aren’t you breaking the minesterial code if you mislead parliament?


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I don't know. Maybe intention needs to be established.

That's why I asked the question.

[wookie70]

What's the difference between breaching the ministerial code and misleading parliament?

The way I read it, Starmer says a minister should resign if they are found guilty of the former, not the latter.

Both have been proven to have been broken by senior Tories recently without Starmer bothering a jot. He is misleading the country calling himself leader of the opposition and seems more bothered sticking his nose into Scottish business while he abstains in the Parliament he actually serves in.

[Ozyhibby]

Thought Sarwar was good tonight and seems serious about coming 2nd. If he backs it up over next 37 days then he might just make Labour relevant again. Early days yet though.


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[Keith_M]

Thought Sarwar was good tonight and seems serious about coming 2nd. If he backs it up over next 37 days then he might just make Labour relevant again. Early days yet though.




Given the fact that May's election is widely perceived to be about Indyref2, I'd be surprised if large numbers of unionists* switch to Labour from the Tories.

It's not impossible, but it seems that a lot of people see the Tories are their best hope as the Remain** party.




* No offence intended

** OK, that one was actually a p1ss take. ;-)

[hibsbollah]

Both have been proven to have been broken by senior Tories recently without Starmer bothering a jot. He is misleading the country calling himself leader of the opposition and seems more bothered sticking his nose into Scottish business while he abstains in the Parliament he actually serves in.

To be fair Angela Rayner has written to him this morning again asking for the list of companies given ‘fast track’ covid contracts to be published, they’ve refused so far.

[wookie70]

To be fair Angela Rayner has written to him this morning again asking for the list of companies given ‘fast track’ covid contracts to be published, they’ve refused so far.

Glad to hear that. There is so much that they need to be called out for. Johnson should be investigated by the Police for the money given to his fancy women when he was cheating on his ill wife. How any Public Servant can get away without at least declaring that is unbelievable and it is a bigger crime imo than the expenses scandal.

Far too little was made of Patel's bullying too. As a Civil Servant the thought of the PM not having an issue with a proven bully really grinds my gears. She is absolute poison, was caught being poisonous repeatedly and still comes away with hardly a ticking off. That on top of some really dodgy holidays.

I was just watching the story about the Nightclub fire in Rumania that led to a fall of government and the scandals and corruption that was unearthed by the journalist and couldn't help think we are well on our road to that type of Government but unfortunately don't have the superb journalist that unearthed the scandal. Storyville on the BBC is well worth a watch

[Keith_M]

Regarding the likelihood of accepting a Vaccine passport in the UK, Keir Starmer has said it would be unlikely because of the 'British Instinct'.

Does anybody else think he's sounding more like a Tory every day?

[lucky]

Regarding the likelihood of accepting a Vaccine passport in the UK, Keir Starmer has said it would be unlikely because of the 'British Instinct'.

Does anybody else think he's sounding more like a Tory every day?

As he the leader of the opposition in the British parliament why would he not mention Britain? If he just said English then the fake outrage on here would go through the roof. It’s only in the minds of Nats that Labour and Tories are close or similar. The only policy they share is they are both against the break up of the U.K.

There are many more right wingers in the Scottish Nationalist camp than in the Labour Party. It is often over looked that many on the right see independence as way of controlling Scotland and England separately through capitalism and continue the race to the bottom.

[Hibbyradge]

As he the leader of the opposition in the British parliament why would he not mention Britain? If he just said English then the fake outrage on here would go through the roof. It’s only in the minds of Nats that Labour and Tories are close or similar. The only policy they share is they are both against the break up of the U.K.

There are many more right wingers in the Scottish Nationalist camp than in the Labour Party. It is often over looked that many on the right see independence as way of controlling Scotland and England separately through capitalism and continue the race to the bottom.

As much as I support the campaign for independence, the idea that the SNP are somehow the bastion of left wing politics in Scotland is a bit hard to swallow.

You just need to read some of the comments from SNP supporters on this forum to realise that it's the broadest of all political churches.

I've read comments from posters who in one minute are calling for unions to be taken down a peg or two (or words to that effect), but in the next accusing Labour of being the same as the Tories!

Of course it's nonsense, but to have positioned themselves like this in people's minds is brilliant politics by the SNP.

[Keith_M]

As he the leader of the opposition in the British parliament why would he not mention Britain? If he just said English then the fake outrage on here would go through the roof. It’s only in the minds of Nats that Labour and Tories are close or similar. The only policy they share is they are both against the break up of the U.K.

There are many more right wingers in the Scottish Nationalist camp than in the Labour Party. It is often over looked that many on the right see independence as way of controlling Scotland and England separately through capitalism and continue the race to the bottom.


It's got nothing to do with Scotland v England..., it's more that the phrase he chose to use sounded more like something that Rees-Mogg or Bojo would have come out with.

It's actually reminded me of when Bojo answered a question in PMQs by rabbiting on about 'Freedom loving Brits' who 'invented Freedom of Speech and Democracy', or some crap like that.

He was being interviewed by The Telegraph, and seems to have tailored his responses to sound like their favoured Tories.

[Hibbyradge]

It's got nothing to do with Scotland v England..., it's more that the phrase he chose to use sounded more like something that Rees-Mogg or Bojo would have come out with.

It's actually reminded me of when Bojo answered a question in PMQs by rabbiting on about 'Freedom loving Brits' who 'invented Freedom of Speech and Democracy', or some crap like that.

He was being interviewed by The Telegraph, and seems to have tailored his responses to sound like their favoured Tories.

If he's trying to win votes from people who put an X against the Tory candidate last time, how could he have improved the phrase?

[Keith_M]

If he's trying to win votes from people who put an X against the Tory candidate last time, how could he have improved the phrase?


He could try just using standard speech and give an honest answer.

I'm not convinced that appealing to the lowest elements of British Nationalism is the way forward and I genuinely don't believe that many people that voted Tory last time out are going to be swayed by crap like that.

[Hibbyradge]

He could try just using standard speech and give an honest answer.

I'm not convinced that appealing to the lowest elements of British Nationalism is the way forward and I genuinely don't believe that many people that voted Tory last time out are going to be swayed by crap like that.

I'll translate..."I don't know".

Is Nicola Sturgeon appealing to the lower elements of Scottish Nationalism when she talks about Scotland and Scottish values? :dunno:

I don't understand your objection to anyone talking about British instincts. Frankly, I don't think you understand why you feel that way either.

[660]

I'll translate..."I don't know".

Is Nicola Sturgeon appealing to the lower elements of Scottish Nationalism when she talks about Scotland and Scottish values? :dunno:

I don't understand your objection to anyone talking about British instincts. Frankly, I don't think you understand why you feel that way either.

What is the 'British Instinct' in this context? Instinct suggests an innate superiority to me. Values are an entirely different thing.

[Hibbyradge]

What is the 'British Instinct' in this context? Instinct suggests an innate superiority to me. Values are an entirely different thing.

I don't see it as superiority, just what folk are used to. Cultural if you will.

I'm not sure what the defining line between values and instincts is.

If he'd said "British values", I imagine the complaint from Keith would have been the same.

[Santa Cruz]

I don't see it as superiority, just what folk are used to. Cultural if you will.

I'm not sure what the defining line between values and instincts is.

If he'd said "British values", I imagine the complaint from Keith would have been the same.

That's how I read it, cultural as in what people in the UK recognised as normal/expected freedoms in our society pre pandemic.

[Smartie]

I think both Boris and Starmer are right.

Obviously it’s a generalisation and doesn’t apply to all citizens but there is something inherently British about a sneering superiority complex and a belief that rules apply to other people. You can either deny it, leading to unrealistic rules being adopted or you can accept that there’s something in it and end up with situations where rules might actually work.

When so say British, I mean English but in the eyes of the likes of Boris and Starmer they are the same thing.

Obviously they’re not, and one of the main reasons I believe in independence is because I just think the outlook of English and Scottish people has become too different. I don’t believe it always was but it is now and the gap is only widening.

Covid restrictions rely on the compliance of the public they are being used on and the compliance in the UK in general will always be poor. The lack of self-awareness here is excruciating, with us having drifted to a position where losing the god given right to go to the pub for a while can be likened to living in North Korea.

Our freedom has been hard won and many people have paid a huge sacrifice for it along the way. We should appreciate it more rather than take it for granted. And we should be grateful to be able to criticise the clumsy use of language of our leaders - the fact that we are able to get stuck in so freely is something that is actually great about being British.

[Kato]

He could try just using standard speech and give an honest answer.

I'm not convinced that appealing to the lowest elements of British Nationalism is the way forward and I genuinely don't believe that many people that voted Tory last time out are going to be swayed by crap like that.They've been persuaded by crap like that so far.

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[greenlex]

Regarding the likelihood of accepting a Vaccine passport in the UK, Keir Starmer has said it would be unlikely because of the 'British Instinct'.

Does anybody else think he's sounding more like a Tory every day?
He’s a Sir. Part of the institution. I was pulled up for suggesting he would be a poor Labour choice for leader when appointed. I stand by it. He doesn’t have me, you or any other working class brits in his thoughts. He’s now part of a outdated and antiquated class system.

[wookie70]

Regarding the likelihood of accepting a Vaccine passport in the UK, Keir Starmer has said it would be unlikely because of the 'British Instinct'.

Does anybody else think he's sounding more like a Tory every day?

I have no idea what that even means but he is definitely upping the Union Flag, superiority power play.

To me British instinct or Values are similar and translate to mean how the English see themselves. That is pretty much the opposite of how every other nation views them. As a nation I would say they are selfish, self-centred, arrogant with little reason to be, servient to those with more money/class and about all else have completely no self awareness.

Imagine a saying like "We are all Jock Tamson's bairns" being popular in England right now. That probably says much about the chasm that the cultural divide has become and that to me is why Independence, for a nation of outward thinking, welcoming citizens that thrives on taking the pish out itself, is now the popular viewpoint.

[Santa Cruz]

He’s a Sir. Part of the institution. I was pulled up for suggesting he would be a poor Labour choice for leader when appointed. I stand by it. He doesn’t have me, you or any other working class brits in his thoughts. He’s now part of a outdated and antiquated class system.

I think a lot of people have a problem with him being a Sir. I personally think it's a pointless system, but recognise others feel proud when they receive one, as presumably some will have done something in public life deserving of acknowledgement. Is it just title's you think are outdated or all honours?

[greenlex]

I think a lot of people have a problem with him being a Sir. I personally think it's a pointless system, but recognise others feel proud when they receive one, as presumably some will have done something in public life deserving of acknowledgement. Is it just title's you think are outdated or all honours?

All of the current system. British Empire and colonialism is long gone. All the titles should go with them. The biggest problem with them is the cronies that give them to each other usually politically motivated rather than a civic award.

[Santa Cruz]

All of the current system. British Empire and colonialism is long gone. All the titles should go with them. The biggest problem with them is the cronies that give them to each other usually politically motivated rather than a civic award.

Aye, I suspect that's the true in many cases. I was surprised to read Jeane Freeman has an OBE, unless she's handed it back and I'm not aware of that, or perhaps she was proud to be recognised for her civic duties.

[cabbageandribs1875]

rhona kilpatrick on Twitter: "@jackiebmsp Hi @jackiebmsp I am a doctor and have been operating on patients cancer since last March. Our patients are never ‘refused’ treatment, they are offered the best and most appropriate for them as an individual (a decision between a large number of experienced staff) - not changed!" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/rhonakilpatrick/status/1377002430374809600?s=19&fbclid=IwAR26TcA5ZlWTcAK02ol5zsgorl6pbdm8gOgBr6Sfv RJMgVApAVSXDvGSeWc)


Baillie at it again, she lies like a tory...and votes like one as well

[Santa Cruz]

rhona kilpatrick on Twitter: "@jackiebmsp Hi @jackiebmsp I am a doctor and have been operating on patients cancer since last March. Our patients are never ‘refused’ treatment, they are offered the best and most appropriate for them as an individual (a decision between a large number of experienced staff) - not changed!" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/rhonakilpatrick/status/1377002430374809600?s=19&fbclid=IwAR26TcA5ZlWTcAK02ol5zsgorl6pbdm8gOgBr6Sfv RJMgVApAVSXDvGSeWc)


Baillie at it again, she lies like a tory...and votes like one as well

The doctor appears to be in a different HB to the case highlighted by Sanwar where the patient had to go to England for Cancer treatment. I heard the FM say that was of course wrong that was happening and it neither makes Jackie Bailie a liar or a Tory.

[weecounty hibby]

The doctor appears to be in a different HB to the case highlighted by Sanwar where the patient had to go to England for Cancer treatment. I heard the FM say that was of course wrong that was happening and it neither makes Jackie Bailie a liar or a Tory.
I have since read that the person referred to by Sarwar would have gone to England for specialist treatment anyway, dunno for sure about that but perhaps just using that as a political football. It happens all the time if it is specialist treatment. When my daughter was in Yorkhill we stayed in Ronald Mcdonald house and we met folk there whose kids were in the hospital and they came from Nottingham and Belfast.

[Santa Cruz]

I have since read that the person referred to by Sarwar would have gone to England for specialist treatment anyway, dunno for sure about that but perhaps just using that as a political football. It happens all the time if it is specialist treatment. When my daughter was in Yorkhill we stayed in Ronald Mcdonald house and we met folk there whose kids were in the hospital and they came from Nottingham and Belfast.

Yeah that happens so people are offered the best available specialist treatment. I watched an interview with the lady's daughter Sarwar was referring to. She was initially denied treatment by her HB and then faced reluctance by them to be referred for treatment in England. The daughter said they had to fight for her right to treatment.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Baillie again... :agree: and if the Lab/tory coalition prevail even more services will be lost

Jackie Baillie told to apologise for using Vale of Leven as 'political football' | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19204871.jackie-baillie-told-apologise-using-vale-leven-political-football/?fbclid=IwAR0zyviMTrc_1qKSfq1hI6w4ySjo4avrPQITYFUy tiN4jht7gCc7EZMwZTo)

In a video posted to Twitter, Baillie says she will do “everything I can” to protect services at the Vale of Leven. The video opens by saying that there has been a “lot of fear and anxiety” caused by the loss of the A&E at the hospital, but makes no mention of the fact that it was a Labour government which had overseen its removal.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/keir-starmer-ill-take-my-mask-off-and-show-why-i-should-be-prime-minister

Interesting article. What I'm trying to understand is why Labour will back the abolition of the Fixed Term Parliament Act? Overall it seems a bad idea to me to let the ruling party pick and choose when to have an election, but from the article it sounds like Labour are aware of the trap waiting for them but are not only walking into it, but actually help set it up?

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/keir-starmer-ill-take-my-mask-off-and-show-why-i-should-be-prime-minister

Interesting article. What I'm trying to understand is why Labour will back the abolition of the Fixed Term Parliament Act? Overall it seems a bad idea to me to let the ruling party pick and choose when to have an election, but from the article it sounds like Labour are aware of the trap waiting for them but are not only walking into it, but actually help set it up?

Repealing the FTPA is in both parties' manifestos, so its going to the bin. It takes more power away from the commons and gives it to the cabinet (theoretically) and the prime Minister (in practice). Its a risky move for Labour to support it, they are banking on not being in permanent opposition. Repealing the Act would mean a massive boost to the power of the sitting PM; it only requires a Govt to be more popular than the opposition for a couple of months in any given 5 year period to retain power. Behind in the polls? No problem. Wait until the most opportune moment, maybe announce a series of tax cuts, a war or a nice bit of increase in public spending, call a quick election, win it, and then do what the **** you want for 4 more years.

Labour have other plans; cutting the voting age to 16, oppose Tory boundary changes and also put in place automatic voter registration which will enfranchise everyone and put millions of extra voters (mostly younger and poorer) on the electoral roll.

But i agree with you, if i were Labour id oppose the repeal.

[neil7908]

Repealing the FTPA is in both parties' manifestos, so its going to the bin. It takes more power away from the commons and gives it to the cabinet (theoretically) and the prime Minister (in practice). Its a risky move for Labour to support it, they are banking on not being in permanent opposition. Repealing the Act would mean a massive boost to the power of the sitting PM; it only requires a Govt to be more popular than the opposition for a couple of months in any given 5 year period to retain power. Behind in the polls? No problem. Wait until the most opportune moment, maybe announce a series of tax cuts, a war or a nice bit of increase in public spending, call a quick election, win it, and then do what the **** you want for 4 more years.

Labour have other plans; cutting the voting age to 16, oppose Tory boundary changes and also put in place automatic voter registration which will enfranchise everyone and put millions of extra voters (mostly younger and poorer) on the electoral roll.

But i agree with you, if i were Labour id oppose the repeal.

Must admit I hadn't realised it was in their manifesto. I just don't understand, wherever you sit on the political spectrum, why anyone would want this.

As you say, it gives huge power to the PM, be they Labour or Conservative, to chuck a few bungs at the electorate, announce a snap election and secure a new term.

[hibsbollah]

Must admit I hadn't realised it was in their manifesto. I just don't understand, wherever you sit on the political spectrum, why anyone would want this.

As you say, it gives huge power to the PM, be they Labour or Conservative, to chuck a few bungs at the electorate, announce a snap election and secure a new term.

I hadnt either, neither the 16 yo enfranchisement thing.

[CloudSquall]

Labour on course to lose the Hartlepool by-election according to the recent polls:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1379199218137587712


If I'm doing it right, now is not the time to win by-elections vs the Tories while they are saving the world from the virus?



:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour on course to lose the Hartlepool by-election according to the recent polls:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1379199218137587712


If I'm doing it right, now is not the time to win by-elections vs the Tories while they are saving the world from the virus?



:greengrin
Disaster for uk politics. Even if Scotland could have an exit route in the future, the thought of boris destroying lives for an extra five years is very sad.

[Mr Grieves]

Labour on course to lose the Hartlepool by-election according to the recent polls:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1379199218137587712


If I'm doing it right, now is not the time to win by-elections vs the Tories while they are saving the world from the virus?



:greengrin

From the same poll, the people of Hartlepool would support free broadband, renationalising Royal Mail and a big pay rise for nurses....and they will vote for the Tories :dunno:

[SHODAN]

Labour on course to lose the Hartlepool by-election according to the recent polls:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1379199218137587712


If I'm doing it right, now is not the time to win by-elections vs the Tories while they are saving the world from the virus?



:greengrin

But Keith's really right wing and stuff now, the British public love that, right?

[Ozyhibby]

From the same poll, the people of Hartlepool would support free broadband, renationalising Royal Mail and a big pay rise for nurses....and they will vote for the Tories :dunno:

English nationalism has taken hold though. Those things won’t matter on polling day.


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[Hibbyradge]

Coming in here must be what it's like if you had the misfortune to visit Tory Party HQ with all the folk celebrating the Tories' successes and popularity.

Frankly, it makes the skin crawl.

Just shows that they've got a great future in Scotland should independence ever be achieved.

[hibsbollah]

all the folk celebrating the Tories' successes and popularity.

Frankly, it makes the skin crawl.

Just shows that they've got a great future in Scotland should independence ever be achieved.

Source? I don’t see a single post like that.

The problem here is there is now a sustained gulf in national opinion polls. Starmer and Rayner have been in Hartlepool multiple times campaigning (I know, because they keep sending me videos of themselves) and it looks like it’s had a negative impact, if anything. Hartlepool is the easiest red wall seat going for Labour, the whole strategy has been to win those voters back and be as rude as possible to the left/pro Europe wing of the party, and it’s backfired, because he doesn’t look credible. In fact, I think he’s now totally unelectable.

[The Harp Awakes]

Source? I don’t see a single post like that.

The problem here is there is now a sustained gulf in national opinion polls. Starmer and Rayner have been in Hartlepool multiple times campaigning (I know, because they keep sending me videos of themselves) and it looks like it’s had a negative impact, if anything. Hartlepool is the easiest red wall seat going for Labour, the whole strategy has been to win those voters back and be as rude as possible to the left/pro Europe wing of the party, and it’s backfired, because he doesn’t look credible. In fact, I think he’s now totally unelectable.

I think that's been a fatal mistake by Starmer. Clearly he's trying to make Labour more electable to centre ground voters but he was a key part of the Corbyn shadow cabinet and now he is rubbishing everything they ever did. Makes him appear untrustworthy. It's also not sensible, considering the grass routes of the Labour movement is well left of centre. He's ending up appealing to nobody and for that reason looks like being unelectable.

[lapsedhibee]

Source? I don’t see a single post like that.

The problem here is there is now a sustained gulf in national opinion polls. Starmer and Rayner have been in Hartlepool multiple times campaigning (I know, because they keep sending me videos of themselves) and it looks like it’s had a negative impact, if anything. Hartlepool is the easiest red wall seat going for Labour, the whole strategy has been to win those voters back and be as rude as possible to the left/pro Europe wing of the party, and it’s backfired, because he doesn’t look credible. In fact, I think he’s now totally unelectable.


I think that's been a fatal mistake by Starmer. Clearly he's trying to make Labour more electable to centre ground voters but he was a key part of the Corbyn shadow cabinet and now he is rubbishing everything they ever did. Makes him appear untrustworthy. It's also not sensible, considering the grass routes of the Labour movement is well left of centre. He's ending up appealing to nobody and for that reason looks like being unelectable.

Shirley he's currently trying to win over people who voted Tory last time round. Do you think he's likely to do that by going full Corbyn? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

Shirley he's currently trying to win over people who voted Tory last time round. Do you think he's likely to do that by going full Corbyn? :dunno:

Didn’t Hartlepool vote Labour in 2019?


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[hibsbollah]

Shirley he's currently trying to win over people who voted Tory last time round. Do you think he's likely to do that by going full Corbyn? :dunno:

No, I don’t.

But in terms of policy, Starmer could be to the left of Corbyn, we have no idea :faf: there’s been literally no policies. We can only judge based on his general messaging, which isn’t reflecting the platform (‘No More Factionalism’) that he was elected on.

[wookie70]

No, I don’t.

But in terms of policy, Starmer could be to the left of Corbyn, we have no idea :faf: there’s been literally no policies. We can only judge based on his general messaging, which isn’t reflecting the platform (‘No More Factionalism’) that he was elected on.

I'd take a guess he is slightly to the right of Blair. Labour are a busted flush anyway but Starmer is making it worse.

Such a tough gig being Labour leader as it appears the only way to be PM is to have more blue than red in your political bloodstream. Hopefully, a John Smith character can come out the woodwork but no-one obvious imo. Andy Burnham is no John Smith but he could have the personality and credentials if all of Labour got behind him.

For voters like me who did bleed red it must be impossible in England now. Easy in Scotland though. Vote SNP and Green as a second choice and then concentrate on a Scottish Labour Party, with Corbyn like policies on Social Justice, Nationalisation and Green matters etc, when we get Independence. That type of Government could actually have enough terms to create a different society. In England at best you will only get Labour repairing the damage the Tories have done to the fabric of Society but they never quite get back to previous levels so it is a downward spiral. The future, for England, at least is blue in colour and mood.

[neil7908]

Shirley he's currently trying to win over people who voted Tory last time round. Do you think he's likely to do that by going full Corbyn? :dunno:

Unfortunately the evidence is showing that he's not winning any of them over (or not enough anyway) and is also losing support from the left of his own party.

It’s now over a year since he's been in power. Corbyn had already faced a leadership challenge by now.

[Kato]

Shirley he's currently trying to win over people who voted Tory last time round. Do you think he's likely to do that by going full Corbyn? :dunno:

Going half-Johnson isn't working either and is, imho, a strange way for a Labour leader to go.

[lapsedhibee]

Going half-Johnson isn't working either and is, imho, a strange way for a Labour leader to go.

Can only think that he is hoping that Johnson and puppets eventually implode in a mess of sleaze and corruption and he is still there waiting decently in the wings to step in and pick up the pieces. Can't see exactly how being traditional Labour of any flavour is getting him in to power any time soon - England is just too Tory, and up till now the worse the Tories have behaved the more the English electorate seems to have lapped them up.

[JeMeSouviens]

Going half-Johnson isn't working either and is, imho, a strange way for a Labour leader to go.

:agree:

There's nothing more off-putting than the obviously phony.

[Hibbyradge]

Didn’t Hartlepool vote Labour in 2019?


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It did, but with 15% less support than in 2017.

This means that it needs less than a 5% swing for the Tories to win.

[Keith_M]

It did, but with 15% less support than in 2017.

This means that it needs less than a 5% swing for the Tories to win.



That's honestly quite incredible. I would never have imagined Hartlepool as somewhere that would vote in a Tory MP.

I honestly find it quite disturbing that Labour in England seem to be losing it's traditional heartlands to the Conservative party

[Renfrew_Hibby]

That's honestly quite incredible. I would never have imagined Hartlepool as somewhere that would vote in a Tory MP.

I honestly find it quite disturbing that Labour in England seem to be losing it's traditional heartlands to the Conservative party

The clear dividing line in England is urban/metropolitan versus town/rural. In most cities whether north or south, labour is on the rise and dominate but places like Hartlepool are lost, a very similar tale to the way the Democratic and Republican vote lands in the US.

Thankfully over time, the world over, smaller towns and rural areas are slowly depopulating and metropolitan regions continue to ever expand. The state of Georgia us a good case study as the rural counties fall away and the urban centre of Atlanta sucks up the next generation.

Urban values are different to rural ones, the Republicans know this and recognise that they may be unelectable in the very near future.

[neil7908]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-jesus-house-stephen-timms-b1827556.html

I wonder if Keir will be adopting a zero tolerance approach to homophobia as well as anti semitism? Visiting that particular church in the first place was a huge error of judgement which he has now apologised for. But one of his MPs seems to disagree. We'll see if any action is taken but I won't hold my breath.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-jesus-house-stephen-timms-b1827556.html

I wonder if Keir will be adopting a zero tolerance approach to homophobia as well as anti semitism? Visiting that particular church in the first place was a huge error of judgement which he has now apologised for. But one of his MPs seems to disagree. We'll see if any action is taken but I won't hold my breath.

Won’t that make most churches and mosques off limits?


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[Keith_M]

Won’t that make most churches and mosques off limits?



Agreed.

I also think it's possible they're making a bit too much out of this one, as it very much looks like the church in question simply has a different view on things like gay marriage, because of their religious beliefs.

I might disagree with them but it doesn't necessarily make them evil.

[hibsbollah]

The clear dividing line in England is urban/metropolitan versus town/rural. In most cities whether north or south, labour is on the rise and dominate but places like Hartlepool are lost, a very similar tale to the way the Democratic and Republican vote lands in the US.

Thankfully over time, the world over, smaller towns and rural areas are slowly depopulating and metropolitan regions continue to ever expand. The state of Georgia us a good case study as the rural counties fall away and the urban centre of Atlanta sucks up the next generation.

Urban values are different to rural ones, the Republicans know this and recognise that they may be unelectable in the very near future.

The rural/urban schism is a good point and underreported. The same thing is happening in France, rural areas and some parts of the south very pro LePen, urban areas and suburbs mostly 90% against her.

[hibsbollah]

Good opinion piece here in the form of an open letter.

https://westenglandbylines.co.uk/open-letter-to-keir-starmer-leader-of-the-opposition/?fbclid=IwAR16_1D6tQZVsTH3EEw_5XgS9EYGiDHYCWlaHxnf Tyd--b7Mo6sUPwXrHfo

[Smartie]

Good opinion piece here in the form of an open letter.

https://westenglandbylines.co.uk/open-letter-to-keir-starmer-leader-of-the-opposition/?fbclid=IwAR16_1D6tQZVsTH3EEw_5XgS9EYGiDHYCWlaHxnf Tyd--b7Mo6sUPwXrHfo

I really like that, totally agree with the tone of it albeit I'm not in 100% agreement with the "to discuss and seek agreement on the elements of constitutional change" part, which I think is a bit unrealistic in the current climate.

I'm a bit fed up of arguing with people who I fundamentally agree with on pretty much everything other than Scottish independence. We might fall 70/30 and 30/70 either way on it, yet bicker as if we are polar opposites on everything. It's giving the Tories a free run at destroying what is most important and I think this open letter encapsulates that sentiment better than anything else I've read in recent times.

[Hibbyradge]

That's honestly quite incredible. I would never have imagined Hartlepool as somewhere that would vote in a Tory MP.

I honestly find it quite disturbing that Labour in England seem to be losing it's traditional heartlands to the Conservative party

It's very sad.

The seat would probably have gone to the Tories in 2019, but fortunately for Labour, the Brexit Party took over 10k votes, 2.5 times more than the winning margin.

If they lose this time, Starmer will be blamed by his opponents, of course, but it's been on the cards. Brexit and now C19, have not been friends to Labour.

Some of that was self inflicted.

[Hibbyradge]

Good opinion piece here in the form of an open letter.

https://westenglandbylines.co.uk/open-letter-to-keir-starmer-leader-of-the-opposition/?fbclid=IwAR16_1D6tQZVsTH3EEw_5XgS9EYGiDHYCWlaHxnf Tyd--b7Mo6sUPwXrHfo

That's very interesting and its suggested initiative is one that I would support.

I also think the Labour Party should embrace PR, but that's probably for another thread.

[hibsbollah]

I really like that, totally agree with the tone of it albeit I'm not in 100% agreement with the "to discuss and seek agreement on the elements of constitutional change" part, which I think is a bit unrealistic in the current climate.

I'm a bit fed up of arguing with people who I fundamentally agree with on pretty much everything other than Scottish independence We might fall 70/30 and 30/70 either way on it, yet bicker as if we are polar opposites on everything. It's giving the Tories a free run at destroying what is most important and I think this open letter encapsulates that sentiment better than anything else I've read in recent times.

:agree: And the stat that 57% voted for ‘liberal’ parties in 2019 forming a consensus is always worth remembering.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's very interesting and its suggested initiative is one that I would support.

I also think the Labour Party should embrace PR, but that's probably for another thread.

:agree:

I think they should agree on a PR system (STV for me I think) and form a one off electoral pact for the next GE with the Libs and Greens to get it implemented. I actually think that would be the single best thing they could do to prevent Indy as well, but that's another thread from the other thread. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I thought he was pretty good at PMQs today...I wish he’d gone in for the jugular when the Hancock Dido Harding stuff became apparent almost 12 months ago, but better late than never...

‘ I know the prime minister is launching an inquiry. That inquiry isn't even looking at the lobbying rules.

"I'm not sure it's (the Govt led inquiry) looking at very much at all, because every day there's further evidence of the sleaze that's now at the heart of this Conservative government."

[hibsbollah]

The polls are not just sustained misery for Labour now, they’re getting worse.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/04/16/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-13-14-apr

[Hibbyradge]

The polls are not just sustained misery for Labour now, they’re getting worse.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/04/16/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-13-14-apr

I'm still clinging to the hope that this is a vaccine bounce and that when it fades, along with the "sleaze" inroads Labour should be making, those numbers will change dramatically.

No choice really.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210416/a4de0ac121495a49adda7b928b44cccd.jpg

Wonder if this is why they are failing in Scotland? Almost everyone thinks Sarwar has performed ok so far but the polling numbers have not moved at all. Could just be a case of being on the wrong side of an important issue.


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[SHODAN]

The polls are not just sustained misery for Labour now, they’re getting worse.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/04/16/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-13-14-apr

The real danger for Labour is the Greens pulling level with them, which isn't completely out of the question.

[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210416/a4de0ac121495a49adda7b928b44cccd.jpg

Wonder if this is why they are failing in Scotland? Almost everyone thinks Sarwar has performed ok so far but the polling numbers have not moved at all. Could just be a case of being on the wrong side of an important issue.


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I've heard this too, but can't really find much that he's actually said. I watched both the leaders debates, and he was rather inept other than a couple of points to Dross.

I suppose he could be a slow burner.

[hibsbollah]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210416/a4de0ac121495a49adda7b928b44cccd.jpg

Wonder if this is why they are failing in Scotland? Almost everyone thinks Sarwar has performed ok so far but the polling numbers have not moved at all. Could just be a case of being on the wrong side of an important issue.


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I’ve come to the conclusion that Sarwars only hope is to change tack, support the referendum, and allow individual MPs a ‘free vote’ on the subject. Which he won’t of course. You can be as good a salesman as you like but if folk don’t like the product...

[SHODAN]

I’ve come to the conclusion that Sarwars only hope is to change tack, support the referendum, and allow individual MPs a ‘free vote’ on the subject. Which he won’t of course. You can be as good a salesman as you like but if folk don’t like the product...

Sarwar will do nothing that Labour HQ don't let him do. Their only hope is to break away but remain "affiliated" with the main party, and even then I'd half expect the UK party to stand candidates in Scotland anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve come to the conclusion that Sarwars only hope is to change tack, support the referendum, and allow individual MPs a ‘free vote’ on the subject. Which he won’t of course. You can be as good a salesman as you like but if folk don’t like the product...

If he does that he has a chance of picking up list votes and coming 2nd. If not, then he’s not going to improve at all on where they would have got under Leonard.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Starmer kicked out of pub by Landlord


Keir Starmer kicked out of Bath pub by furious landlord - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-kicked-out-of-bath-pub-by-furious-landlord/?fbclid=IwAR348CZNICefFL_acF-E6OBmujAvf73YlaAkl2FrrgKZ4bUD08PgLf_GK3k)



the first time i've agreed with Starmer...and probably the last :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Starmer kicked out of pub by Landlord


Keir Starmer kicked out of Bath pub by furious landlord - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-kicked-out-of-bath-pub-by-furious-landlord/?fbclid=IwAR348CZNICefFL_acF-E6OBmujAvf73YlaAkl2FrrgKZ4bUD08PgLf_GK3k)



the first time i've agreed with Starmer...and probably the last :greengrin

I read that as Starmer Kicked out of Pub Bath and was slightly disappointed :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Starmer kicked out of pub by Landlord


Keir Starmer kicked out of Bath pub by furious landlord - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-kicked-out-of-bath-pub-by-furious-landlord/?fbclid=IwAR348CZNICefFL_acF-E6OBmujAvf73YlaAkl2FrrgKZ4bUD08PgLf_GK3k)



the first time i've agreed with Starmer...and probably the last :greengrin
He was going full Peggy Mitchell when he was chucking him out. :greengrin

[Kato]

Starmer kicked out of pub by Landlord


Keir Starmer kicked out of Bath pub by furious landlord - LBC (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-kicked-out-of-bath-pub-by-furious-landlord/?fbclid=IwAR348CZNICefFL_acF-E6OBmujAvf73YlaAkl2FrrgKZ4bUD08PgLf_GK3k)



the first time i've agreed with Starmer...and probably the last :greengrinThe landlord was on tv this morning. A smug idiot, nothing worse than a misinformed pedant.

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[neil7908]

The landlord was on tv this morning. A smug idiot, nothing worse than a misinformed pedant.

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Whole thing sounds like a stitch up. Did the co owner that invited Starmer not known the other co owner would be there, and the kind of views they hold?

[Kato]

Whole thing sounds like a stitch up. Did the co owner that invited Starmer not known the other co owner would be there, and the kind of views they hold?The guy who flipped knew "someone from the Labour Party" was coming but thought it was a local councillor or somesuch.

Whatever his views they should be engaged with and challenged. How you can discuss anything with a trumpet like that is beyond me though, "lock downs don't work", "it's a coincidence that the numbers fell", "Sweden didn't have restrictions" and the usual "it was just old people who died anyway." An utter arse.

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[Bristolhibby]

Definitely not going back there when I’m next out in Bath. Bit of a weird pub anyway. Used to be a bikers pub, cleaned up a bit.

There’s a brilliant Gin bar down the street called the Canary. That gets my vote.

While I’m at it, there’s some superb boozers in Bath and lots of variety.

The guy sounds a clown and his co-owner was quick to point out that this is not the view of the Raven as a whole.

J

[lucky]

I’ve come to the conclusion that Sarwars only hope is to change tack, support the referendum, and allow individual MPs a ‘free vote’ on the subject. Which he won’t of course. You can be as good a salesman as you like but if folk don’t like the product...

A week later and the polls have moved for Sarwar, his message is getting through. He’s a great salesman but how many actually believe him.

[hibsbollah]

A week later and the polls have moved for Sarwar, his message is getting through. He’s a great salesman but how many actually believe him.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/04/22/scottish-voting-intention-16-20-apr

Yes, It’s a 4% jump, Tories down 3%. I’m not sure that itself means his stance on the referendum is spot on, it’s a performance bounce that reflects the 6th April leaders debate.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/176672503_3840301096017344_471400240479169437_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=B0IEqpRl1z0AX9KEtOr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=a606d8e32b0dd642a8e040a66b728de3&oe=60AC5F9F


:agree: sadly some BLiS voters will be only too happy to help Boris

[Hibbyradge]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/176672503_3840301096017344_471400240479169437_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=B0IEqpRl1z0AX9KEtOr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=a606d8e32b0dd642a8e040a66b728de3&oe=60AC5F9F


:agree: sadly some BLiS voters will be only too happy to help Boris

Do you mean some folk are pro-union and anti-SNP?

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10931022_10206551619769964_439926165578374530_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ba80b0&_nc_ohc=FLrbg40NAtgAX9kPd9P&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=43200c95310cd2d06cd261d3fee23226&oe=60AEAE21

[Hibbyradge]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10931022_10206551619769964_439926165578374530_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ba80b0&_nc_ohc=FLrbg40NAtgAX9kPd9P&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=43200c95310cd2d06cd261d3fee23226&oe=60AEAE21

Love the 1979 reference!

[Jack]

All the Labour/Sarwar Facebook adverts I'm seeing are asking voters to give their second vote to Labour. I think its incredibly sad that such an influential party in Scotlands past is basically scratching about for scraps.

I won't vote for them, constituency or list, anytime in the near future but I'd still like to see them do better and at least become the official opposition.

[Future17]

I thought yesterday was the first time Starmer impressed at PMQs. To follow that up with a photo op in John Lewis is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Hibbyradge]

To follow that up with a photo op in John Lewis is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Why so?

[lapsedhibee]

I thought yesterday was the first time Starmer impressed at PMQs. To follow that up with a photo op in John Lewis is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Possibly feels that taking the piss out of Johnson, as well as asking him difficult questions, in public, will help him lose his rag again? :dunno:

[Future17]

Why so?

Just a matter of opinion, but I think it made him look like he considered the whole thing to be a joke. It was like he was publicly celebrating skewering Johnson the day before.

I can't really describe it other than to say it seemed really immature and unprofessional.

[Future17]

Possibly feels that taking the piss out of Johnson, as well as asking him difficult questions, in public, will help him lose his rag again? :dunno:

Johnson had already turned the John Lewis thing into a joke. Starmer looked to me like he was joining in on the gag.

[lapsedhibee]

Johnson had already turned the John Lewis thing into a joke. Starmer looked to me like he was joining in on the gag.

Johnson made a joke of it hoping, as usual, that would be enough to make the issue go away. Starmer perhaps just making sure that it didn't. Could well be argued that turning up your nose at/looking down your nose at John Lewis will do more damage than financial shenanigans to the PM who's 'an ordinary bloke you could go for a pint with'.

[Future17]

Johnson made a joke of it hoping, as usual, that would be enough to make the issue go away. Starmer perhaps just making sure that it didn't. Could well be argued that turning up your nose at/looking down your nose at John Lewis will do more damage than financial shenanigans to the PM who's 'an ordinary bloke you could go for a pint with'.

It's possible. Hibsbollah made a good point on here the other day about the aspirational nature of John Lewis for some people which could fit with that narrative.

My gut feeling when I saw the pics of Starmer in JL was that he found the whole thing funny. That was in contrast to his PMQ performance from the day prior, which is the first time I've seen him switch out of "lawyer-mode" for any sustained period.

I wanted Starner to be a good leader of a good opposition, but I can't take to him. I actually feel his previous role as a prosecutor is holding him back, which is ironic in some ways given the political climate.

[Hibbyradge]

Just a matter of opinion, but I think it made him look like he considered the whole thing to be a joke. It was like he was publicly celebrating skewering Johnson the day before.

I can't really describe it other than to say it seemed really immature and unprofessional.

Looked to me like he was saying "I'm not an elitist snob like Johnson" whilst giving the press another opportunity to keep talking about it.

[Keith_M]

Looked to me like he was saying "I'm not an elitist snob like Johnson" whilst giving the press another opportunity to keep talking about it.


Same here.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looked to me like he was saying "I'm not an elitist snob like Johnson" whilst giving the press another opportunity to keep talking about it.

I agree with F17.

He was getting somewhere (finally) with the deadly serious "corrupt PM has questions to answer" line and he's turned it into knockabout banter about snobby wallpaper or whatever.

[Bostonhibby]

Looked to me like he was saying "I'm not an elitist snob like Johnson" whilst giving the press another opportunity to keep talking about it.That's how I see it as well. A bit better from him at the moment. He's got a lot to shoot at.

Nearly said shooting fish in a barrel but we probably can't afford to do that now given what the nasty party have delivered for the fishermen recently.

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[Future17]

Looked to me like he was saying "I'm not an elitist snob like Johnson" whilst giving the press another opportunity to keep talking about it.

By fondling some rolls of wallpaper and not even buying anything? :greengrin

You're probably right about prolonging the story, which is bad for Johnson. I just don't think this particular incident did anything positive for Starmer.

Anyone who gets the relevance of where he was will see it as either making light of Johnson's actions or cheap political opportunism. It's not exactly statesmanslike.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree with F17.

He was getting somewhere (finally) with the deadly serious "corrupt PM has questions to answer" line and he's turned it into knockabout banter about snobby wallpaper or whatever.

How it plays with you or I, or anyone who posts in the Holy Ground, is pretty much irrelevant.

It's how it plays with those people who are potentially Labour voters, but voted Tory last time.

They're not snobs, but they won't like being made to feel like they're lesser because they either shop at the likes of JL or aspire to.

Having said that, I think Starmer was making Johnson the joke and reminding people of why. You can argue that he could have made more of the gaff with a different approach, although I haven't heard how yet, but it certainly didn't set him back. Johnson is damaged by the affair.

[lucky]

If Labour loses heavily in the English council elections and Hartlepool by-election then Stammer will be gone. A lot of the unions are ready to move on him and McCluskey is desperate to take him out. All is not well in the Labour Party

[Ozyhibby]

If Labour loses heavily in the English council elections and Hartlepool by-election then Stammer will be gone. A lot of the unions are ready to move on him and McCluskey is desperate to take him out. All is not well in the Labour Party

Hardly a surprise when nobody know what they stand for these days and their leader in Scotland can’t even discuss the biggest issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

All is not well in the Labour Party

Twas ever thus.

[hibsbollah]

Michelle probing Starmer on Today on what the key difference between Labour and Conservative policies are. He utterly, totally failed. Desperate.

[Colr]

Michelle probing Starmer on Today on what the key difference between Labour and Conservative policies are. He utterly, totally failed. Desperate.

Had to switch off. The economy question was an open goal and he just blustered about equality rather than answer.

Should have put Lisa Nandy up.

[lucky]

Hardly a surprise when nobody know what they stand for these days and their leader in Scotland can’t even discuss the biggest issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s just not true, Sarwar has been clear he does not support independence or another referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

That’s just not true, Sarwar has been clear he does not support independence or another referendum.

That's Sarwar 's view, but what is the official policy?

Monica Lennon supports a referendum, the candidate who was bumped also supported a referendum.


There is no clear message.

[hibsbollah]

That's Sarwar 's view, but what is the official policy?

Monica Lennon supports a referendum, the candidate who was bumped also supported a referendum.


There is no clear message.

Sarwars policy of is the official policy, but there are various shades of opinion, from hostility to neutrality to cautious support as a chance to put the whole issue to bed, to supporting and campaigning for a yes vote as Labour in a post independence Scotland. And that’s just the candidates.

[hibsbollah]

Had to switch off. The economy question was an open goal and he just blustered about equality rather than answer.

Should have put Lisa Nandy up.

His first clear blue water between red and blue rosette? ‘Well we’re going to work closely with business’.

[neil7908]

Latest poll in Hartlepool doesn't look good for Starmer:

NEW – Hartlepool leadership ratings:

Johnson / Starmer

Net Rating: +23% (+4) / -18% (-4)
Favourable 51% (+2) / 22% (-2)
Unfavourable 28% (-2) / 40% (+2)

517 interviewed by phone for @GMB, aged 18+ living in H’pool, 23-29 Apr. Changes w/ 29 Mar-3 Apr.

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest poll in Hartlepool doesn't look good for Starmer:

NEW – Hartlepool leadership ratings:

Johnson / Starmer

Net Rating: +23% (+4) / -18% (-4)
Favourable 51% (+2) / 22% (-2)
Unfavourable 28% (-2) / 40% (+2)

517 interviewed by phone for @GMB, aged 18+ living in H’pool, 23-29 Apr. Changes w/ 29 Mar-3 Apr.

Starmer's insipid performance aside, how in the name of holy **** is Johson getting +23? Who are these morons? :confused:

[Bristolhibby]

Starmer's insipid performance aside, how in the name of holy **** is Johson getting +23? Who are these morons? :confused:

They hung a monkey for being a French spy FFS! Seems like nothings changed.

J

[neil7908]

Starmer's insipid performance aside, how in the name of holy **** is Johson getting +23? Who are these morons? :confused:

Had a quick read of the data and it looks like The Brexit Party got 25.6% in the 2019 election. Likely all of those votes are now going to the Tories.

[weecounty hibby]

Scotland will be governed by these *******s for decades to come whether we like it or not. Labour are stuffed and it will take years for any other centre left party to take hold. Only way out of the right wing xenophobic insular nightmare that is the Tories is to become an independent nation. I feel sorry for the more moderate folk in England but they sadly seem to be in the minority

[hibsbollah]

Had a quick read of the data and it looks like The Brexit Party got 25.6% in the 2019 election. Likely all of those votes are now going to the Tories.

...and which shows the utter insanity of trying to pretend to be eurosceptic and flag waving party when these voters were never ever going to be persuaded. Shore up your core vote and win over previously non voters and young people? No, let’s be hopelessly inauthentic instead. I hope Labour win Hartlepool, a rough ersed edgy working class community that should be an automatic Labour hold , but it seems like it’s going to an entitled upper class Tory farmer candidate who has been brought in from outside the area instead. That’s the world we’re in.

[Hibbyradge]

Had a quick read of the data and it looks like The Brexit Party got 25.6% in the 2019 election. Likely all of those votes are now going to the Tories.

:agree:

[ronaldo7]

If Labour loses heavily in the English council elections and Hartlepool by-election then Stammer will be gone. A lot of the unions are ready to move on him and McCluskey is desperate to take him out. All is not well in the Labour Party

I don't think he'll consider going if he loses hartlepool. He was on the BBC this morning, and when asked directly if he'd resign if he loses hartlepool, he refused to answer. Saying he'd lots of work to do.

What's the situation on trident in the Labour party these days. Scotland says no, London says yes?

[Hibrandenburg]

Starmer's insipid performance aside, how in the name of holy **** is Johson getting +23? Who are these morons? :confused:

I think you really already know the answer to your question.

[Hibbyradge]

...and which shows the utter insanity of trying to pretend to be eurosceptic and flag waving party when these voters were never ever going to be persuaded. Shore up your core vote and win over previously non voters and young people? No, let’s be hopelessly inauthentic instead. I hope Labour win Hartlepool, a rough ersed edgy working class community that should be an automatic Labour hold , but it seems like it’s going to an entitled upper class Tory farmer candidate who has been brought in from outside the area instead. That’s the world we’re in.

That is the world we live in and it's depressing.

However, if the electorate is moving to the right, and they clearly are if they're voting for the buffoon, there's no logic in saying that Labour would do better if they were more left wing. That's just plain daft. I know you didn't say that.

However, I don't know what, or who, is going to make Labour more attractive. I'm done in with it now.

Best thing for you guys is to get independence and leave us in the clutches of the Tories for ever.

At least I'll get a European passport and the option to return.

[hibsbollah]

That is the world we live in and it's depressing.

However, if the electorate is moving to the right, and they clearly are if they're voting for the buffoon, there's no logic in saying that Labour would do better if they were more left wing. That's just plain daft. I know you didn't say that.

However, I don't know what, or who, is going to make Labour more attractive. I'm done in with it now.

Best thing for you guys is to get independence and leave us in the clutches of the Tories for ever.

At least I'll get a European passport and the option to return.

It’s a hard one for me. I’m a Labour Party member. If I was in Edinburgh Central I’d vote for Maddie Kirkman, a brilliant candidate and campaigner for disabled rights, a massively important and ignored issue I’d happily campaign for. But as it is I’m probably going to vote against the party I’m a member of, and I’m hoping for some sort of left wing or progressive resurgence post independence that I can actually get behind.

[neil7908]

That is the world we live in and it's depressing.

However, if the electorate is moving to the right, and they clearly are if they're voting for the buffoon, there's no logic in saying that Labour would do better if they were more left wing. That's just plain daft. I know you didn't say that.

However, I don't know what, or who, is going to make Labour more attractive. I'm done in with it now.

Best thing for you guys is to get independence and leave us in the clutches of the Tories for ever.

At least I'll get a European passport and the option to return.

You have my sympathies. I liked Corbyn and thought he got a hard time but ultimately he failed and although I must admit I enjoy the occasional dig at Starmer, I actually think he's a decent leader, who, like Corbyn, is fighting a near insurmountable battle.

Even if Tony Blair v2.0 was around (by that I mean someone who clearly was able to engage a huge chunk of English voters), I'm still not sure that would be enough. It just feels like the Tories will rule for years to come and I don't see a path out of this, except independence.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you really already know the answer to your question.

Well, yes, but you would think some of them might be waking up by now. What's it going to take?

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s a hard one for me. I’m a Labour Party member. If I was in Edinburgh Central I’d vote for Maddie Kirkman, a brilliant candidate and campaigner for disabled rights, a massively important and ignored issue I’d happily campaign for. But as it is I’m probably going to vote against the party I’m a member of, and I’m hoping for some sort of left wing or progressive resurgence post independence that I can actually get behind.

I think that's where a lot of folk are at. A progressive left wing party would flourish in an independent Scotland. Not only would many SNP voters return to their default political ideology on the left, but many Tory voters from working class backgrounds who only vote Tory because of the union, would also be up for grabs once the unionist boat had sailed. The centre ground in an independent Scotland would be much further left than at present.

[JeMeSouviens]

You have my sympathies. I liked Corbyn and thought he got a hard time but ultimately he failed and although I must admit I enjoy the occasional dig at Starmer, I actually think he's a decent leader, who, like Corbyn, is fighting a near insurmountable battle.

Even if Tony Blair v2.0 was around (by that I mean someone who clearly was able to engage a huge chunk of English voters), I'm still not sure that would be enough. It just feels like the Tories will rule for years to come and I don't see a path out of this, except independence.

Electoral reform and an electoral pact to get to it. Labour needs to bite that bullet asap.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think that's where a lot of folk are at. A progressive left wing party would flourish in an independent Scotland. Not only would many SNP voters return to their default political ideology on the left, but many Tory voters from working class backgrounds who only vote Tory because of the union, would also be up for grabs once the unionist boat had sailed. The centre ground in an independent Scotland would be much further left than at present.

Don't know about "much", but I think certainly "a bit". It remains to be seen how egalitarian we will be when we have to pay for it. However, one of the encouraging things about Salmond's (hopefully complete) failure with Alba is that there seems to be almost no appetite for gammonry.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Dick Darling begging Tory voters to give list votes to the friends of the conservative party(BLiS) :agree:

Alistair Darling tells Tory voters: Anas Sarwar 'shares your priorities' | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19277167.alistair-darling-tells-tory-voters-anas-sarwar-shares-priorities/?fbclid=IwAR2JmFrHxzbRhRwKHwG73qWkRtPlO00ckfs09k-l7lJGBpV9a3mFv1XaRJw)


FORMER Better Together chief Alistair Darling has intervened in the Holyrood (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/holyrood/) election, telling Tory supporters that Anas Sarwar "shares your priorities".
The ex-chancellor, who worked closely with the Conservatives to keep Scotland in the UK in 2014, called on voters in Tory-held seats to give their second vote to Scottish Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) this week.

He has written to voters in Tory-held seats, making a direct appeal to them to give their second vote – on the regional list section of the ballot – to Labour.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't know about "much", but I think certainly "a bit". It remains to be seen how egalitarian we will be when we have to pay for it. However, one of the encouraging things about Salmond's (hopefully complete) failure with Alba is that there seems to be almost no appetite for gammonry.

There's plenty of appetite for gammonry (like that word) in Scotland. Most of them are feeding their faces in the unionist trough at present but I'm sure they'll find enough to turn pink at in an independent Scotland and maybe even find common ground with the nationalist gammons.

[Hibbyradge]

Dick Darling begging Tory voters to give list votes to the friends of the conservative party(BLiS) :agree:

Alistair Darling tells Tory voters: Anas Sarwar 'shares your priorities' | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19277167.alistair-darling-tells-tory-voters-anas-sarwar-shares-priorities/?fbclid=IwAR2JmFrHxzbRhRwKHwG73qWkRtPlO00ckfs09k-l7lJGBpV9a3mFv1XaRJw)


FORMER Better Together chief Alistair Darling has intervened in the Holyrood (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/holyrood/) election, telling Tory supporters that Anas Sarwar "shares your priorities".
The ex-chancellor, who worked closely with the Conservatives to keep Scotland in the UK in 2014, called on voters in Tory-held seats to give their second vote to Scottish Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) this week.

He has written to voters in Tory-held seats, making a direct appeal to them to give their second vote – on the regional list section of the ballot – to Labour.

It's an election, isn't it? He's trying to win votes.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[weecounty hibby]

Dick Darling begging Tory voters to give list votes to the friends of the conservative party(BLiS) :agree:

Alistair Darling tells Tory voters: Anas Sarwar 'shares your priorities' | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19277167.alistair-darling-tells-tory-voters-anas-sarwar-shares-priorities/?fbclid=IwAR2JmFrHxzbRhRwKHwG73qWkRtPlO00ckfs09k-l7lJGBpV9a3mFv1XaRJw)


FORMER Better Together chief Alistair Darling has intervened in the Holyrood (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/holyrood/) election, telling Tory supporters that Anas Sarwar "shares your priorities".
The ex-chancellor, who worked closely with the Conservatives to keep Scotland in the UK in 2014, called on voters in Tory-held seats to give their second vote to Scottish Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) this week.

He has written to voters in Tory-held seats, making a direct appeal to them to give their second vote – on the regional list section of the ballot – to Labour.
And that just reiterates how hopelessly out of touch Labour are in Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

It's an election, isn't it? He's trying to win votes.

Sounds like a good idea to me.
It might be a good idea to win votes, but it’s unusual for anyone from Labour to say that they share the same ideals as tories.

[Hibbyradge]

It might be a good idea to win votes, but it’s unusual for anyone from Labour to say that they share the same ideals as tories.

Isn't he talking about the union?

[Hibrandenburg]

Isn't he talking about the union?

Yes he is, but isn't he then saying that the other ideologies that separate the Tories and Labour pale into insignificance compared to the union?

[hibsbollah]

That is the world we live in and it's depressing.

However, if the electorate is moving to the right, and they clearly are if they're voting for the buffoon, there's no logic in saying that Labour would do better if they were more left wing. That's just plain daft. I know you didn't say that.

However, I don't know what, or who, is going to make Labour more attractive. I'm done in with it now.

Best thing for you guys is to get independence and leave us in the clutches of the Tories for ever.

At least I'll get a European passport and the option to return.

left/right in terms of UK politics is just meaningless now. Labour isn’t even centrist anymore, there’s no policies but lots of centre right English nationalist messaging. The Tories want high public spending now :dunno: how does that fit? Boris is almost leading some sort of populist right wing nationalist party with strong state high tax tendencies.

It’s kind of like France, where you have a choice between free market Thatcherism in the form of Macron or slick fascism with a smile with Le Pen. For a lot of people there’s no choice at all.

[Keith_M]

...

Best thing for you guys is to get independence and leave us in the clutches of the Tories for ever.

At least I'll get a European passport and the option to return.



Here, you can have a wee flag as well...


24638

[Hibbyradge]

Yes he is, but isn't he then saying that the other ideologies that separate the Tories and Labour pale into insignificance compared to the union?

In a way, yes. It's fundamental to him and Labour.

He wants to have the ideological arguments in the UK not in 2 separate countries.

I hope the SNP sweep the board, but I understand the need to get people to vote for your candidate.

[heretoday]

By fondling some rolls of wallpaper and not even buying anything? :greengrin

You're probably right about prolonging the story, which is bad for Johnson. I just don't think this particular incident did anything positive for Starmer.

Anyone who gets the relevance of where he was will see it as either making light of Johnson's actions or cheap political opportunism. It's not exactly statesmanslike.
Personally, I find J Lewis quite expensive.
You'll find me at Richard F Mackay.

[Hibbyradge]

Here, you can have a wee flag as well...


24638

Jeezo.

[Keith_M]

Jeezo.


You'd better get used to it, it's the future!


:greengrin

[Jack]

That’s just not true, Sarwar has been clear he does not support independence or another referendum.

I can understand his and the Labour position that it wants the UK to remain a union but I don't think I'll ever understand their position against a referendum. The right to self determination is a basic human right. To deny that is to deny democracy.

[Ozyhibby]

I can understand his and the Labour position that it wants the UK to remain a union but I don't think I'll ever understand their position against a referendum. The right to self determination is a basic human right. To deny that is to deny democracy.

With Pabour only having 3 out of the last 11 elections in the UK, I’m not sure why they think that Scotland is better of under the Tories?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/181755666_4027813150608819_5609459944199260081_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=QoaVmlQo_qgAX9NjaV9&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=6d382f41d3e5f8b33926bf7460a8f4af&oe=60B895F3

apologies if already done

[neil7908]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/181755666_4027813150608819_5609459944199260081_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=QoaVmlQo_qgAX9NjaV9&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=6d382f41d3e5f8b33926bf7460a8f4af&oe=60B895F3

apologies if already done

Ouch. Even with the Brexit Party no longer present, and the Tories hoovering up their votes, Labour have still dropped from their 2019 showing.

That must be very worrying for Starmer and the wider party. It doesn't look like Tory sleaze is going to be a sufficient attack method.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/181755666_4027813150608819_5609459944199260081_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=QoaVmlQo_qgAX9NjaV9&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=6d382f41d3e5f8b33926bf7460a8f4af&oe=60B895F3

apologies if already done

Hartlepool is reflective of many English, white 'working class' constituencies. Politically, there has been a huge shift to the right in these areas sadly, with Labour's support being decimated.

In Scotland left of centre politics is still hugely popular. Politics in Scotland and England are on completely different paths and the union is clearly unsustainable.

Sturgeon is spot on with her focus for Scotland in the next 5 years; pandemic recovery then indyref 2 and independence which is not just a preference now, it is a necessity.

[Hibbyradge]

Yep, very poor from them. I sent them a tweet complaining about it. Ooh, I feel so rebellious!

More seriously, my subscription is due again but I'm having second thoughts. I probably will stump up, but I'll let them stew for a while. That'll show them. 😁

Edit: That's strange, I thought I'd quoted bollah but no quote and no original post. :hmmm:

[JeMeSouviens]

Yep, very poor from them. I sent them a tweet complaining about it. Ooh, I feel so rebellious!

More seriously, my subscription is due again but I'm having second thoughts. I probably will stump up, but I'll let them stew for a while. That'll show them. 😁

Edit: That's strange, I thought I'd quoted bollah but no quote and no original post. :hmmm:

Those weren't the droids you were looking for. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

those weren't the droids you were looking for. :wink:

fact!

[hibsbollah]

Yep, very poor from them. I sent them a tweet complaining about it. Ooh, I feel so rebellious!

More seriously, my subscription is due again but I'm having second thoughts. I probably will stump up, but I'll let them stew for a while. That'll show them. 😁

Edit: That's strange, I thought I'd quoted bollah but no quote and no original post. :hmmm:

I moved it to the more relevant thread :agree:

[SHODAN]

If I lived in Hartlepool I'd be voting for the NIP, or the Greens. Send a message out, or maybe start a push to replace Labour with an actual left-wing party via the FPTP threshold.

[SHODAN]

Hartlepool is reflective of many English, white 'working class' constituencies. Politically, there has been a huge shift to the right in these areas sadly, with Labour's support being decimated.

In Scotland left of centre politics is still hugely popular. Politics in Scotland and England are on completely different paths and the union is clearly unsustainable.

Sturgeon is spot on with her focus for Scotland in the next 5 years; pandemic recovery then indyref 2 and independence which is not just a preference now, it is a necessity.

I wouldn't be so sure. Right-wing populism up here has by-and-large been subdued by the SNP, which have somehow managed to tick the nationalist and left-wing box at the same time, but it still exists. The rise of Alba and the anti-woke brigade is showing the consensus is starting to crack.

[Ozyhibby]

I wouldn't be so sure. Right-wing populism up here has by-and-large been subdued by the SNP, which have somehow managed to tick the nationalist and left-wing box at the same time, but it still exists. The rise of Alba and the anti-woke brigade is showing the consensus is starting to crack.

Has there been a ‘rise’ of Alba? We’ll have to wait till Saturday afternoon to know for sure but it just looks like a few old men having a hissy fit so far. As for the rest of those parties, they’ll get no more of a share of the votes than crackpot parties usually get in elections.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

a few old men having a hissy fit

21st century politics in a nutshell.

[Hibbyradge]

I moved it to the more relevant thread :agree:

Understood. I've never read any of that thread. I'm sure I had a valid reason for avoiding it, but I can't remember what it was! :hilarious

Too late now so I'll just wait till Friday morning to see what happened.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I genuinely don't understand what it is that made Corbyn manifestly 'unelectable', despite being within a 1.3% swing of winning a general election, while the term has literally never been used about Starmer, much as it was never used against Milliband, or Brown.

genuine question - is Starmer more electable than Corbyn? if so, what is it that this quality of 'electability' consists of?

[bawheid]

I genuinely don't understand what it is that made Corbyn manifestly 'unelectable', despite being within a 1.3% swing of winning a general election, while the term has literally never been used about Starmer, much as it was never used against Milliband, or Brown.

genuine question - is Starmer more electable than Corbyn? if so, what is it that this quality of 'electability' consists of?

He’s got a Sir in front of his name. Works for some people in England. Only thing I can think of because can’t see anything else.

[Smartie]

Separate note - WhatsApp discussion amongst a few of my uni mates last night.

Quite a lot of support for Sarwar. The general tone of the group would be middle aged with kids, university educated, risk averse. Not exactly flag waving nationalist/unionist, probably mainly small c conservative.

Generally speaking anti-independence and very anti Boris' tories. None are exactly delighted about the whole thing at the moment but many people choosing Scottish labour this time and consider Sarwar to be "the best of a bad bunch".

[hibsbollah]

I genuinely don't understand what it is that made Corbyn manifestly 'unelectable', despite being within a 1.3% swing of winning a general election, while the term has literally never been used about Starmer, much as it was never used against Milliband, or Brown.

genuine question - is Starmer more electable than Corbyn? if so, what is it that this quality of 'electability' consists of?

He rocks a tie better.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-56938468?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6093b9bf70ea3b02f01245b0%26Sarwar%20de livers%20his%20postal%20vote%262021-05-06T09%3A41%3A21.491Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f8fd8e8e-8801-487f-bab7-a5e416c23f92&pinned_post_asset_id=6093b9bf70ea3b02f01245b0&pinned_post_type=share


Anas Sarwar doesn't understand how you do postal voting 🤔 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-56938468?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6093b9f830a9c902dd518334%26Snowy%20sce nes%20in%20Scotland%262021-05-06T10%3A02%3A01.899Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:875a88d8-c13f-4eec-87b8-486e1cacb5e1&pinned_post_asset_id=6093b9f830a9c902dd518334&pinned_post_type=share


Meanwhile, just 10 miles away from me.

[weecounty hibby]

Hartlepool has shown that the Labour party are irrelevant. They are not an opposition party at the moment and just follow the Tory lead. Why bother voting Labour when you can just vote Tory and get the same thing anyway. Even the STUC are beginning to see the light and disagree on indeyref2. As someone who absolutely detests the Tories and everything they stand for it is sad to see. Hopefully last night Scotland showed that we want something different and better

[hibsbollah]

It’s a historically awful result on a number of levels; 16% swing red to blue, a comfy 6000+ majority, losing a seat won twice by laughable/unelectable/dangerous Corbyn or Miliband or any other leader, ever, but... What makes this worse is Starmers whole strategy for over a year has been to reach out to this kind of seat SPECIFICALLY . Hes no longer anti Brexit, he’s abandoned his libertarianism and his internationalism, embraced the flag, and has made repeated visits to the seat, always with the pint in his hand.

And then you have centrist grandees like Polly Toynbee falling over themselves to excuse this performance, offer excuses, offer ‘context’ when all the context should point in the opposite direction, that this is a seat he should have strolled. The absence of proper criticism from the likes of the Guardian suggests he’ll be in power for years yet. He has his party behind him, he tolerates no dissent, he has a compliant press letting him off the hook for letting Boris off the hook. But regardless, the public don’t like him because he’s a fraud.