The future of the Labour Party

[marinello59]

I think we're a more broad church than that. :wink:

Of course you are. :wink:

[steakbake]

I'll be disappointed that if this Labour campaign ends in failure, that a bland Tory lite version of the party reappears. It has been fascinating to see a genuine alternative to the Tories over the last few weeks.

There needs to be a proper alternative.

[ronaldo7]

Just watched the Labour party election broadcast. If I took a shot every time they mentioned Nicola Sturgeon or a Referendum, I'd be hammered.

They really are trying to out tory the tories.

[ronaldo7]

You only see what you want to see, that Labour manifesto is a right wing document alright. :faf: It's pretty hysterical watching the contortions that you're having to go through now to keep your Red Tory jibe going. Seems that trying to control all discussion is the way ahead from the SNP faithful. Don't mention Indendence, even though it's the main reason the SNP exist and the SNP have said the referundum is an issue. Don't mention Nicola Sturgeon even though she is one of the main figures in this election. Don't mention devolved issues as they are not relevant even though they are highlighted in the SNP's campaign literature. Don't mention terrorism unless it's on a timetable approved by SNP devotees. This is civic Nationalism?
Nicola might have let some of you wee scamps have a wee pretendy rebellion on the land reform issue so you could counter accusations of never ever criticising SNP policy but happily the rest of us can pretty much say what we want. :wink:

I mentioned the election broadcast, not the manifesto. Did you watch it? You're getting quite good at putting words into others posts:wink:

You're the one mentioning Red Tories (again). You need to up your game 59. My mention of trying to out tory the tories, was a reference to the continual carping of rape clause ruth, and her Independence mantra.

Kezia and SLAB have seen Ruthie going over the horizon, and she wants to catch up. Time you did.:greengrin

What's going on 59, you've deleted your post:faf:

[marinello59]

I mentioned the election broadcast, not the manifesto. Did you watch it? You're getting quite good at putting words into others posts:wink:

You're the one mentioning Red Tories (again). You need to up your game 59. My mention of trying to out tory the tories, was a reference to the continual carping of rape clause ruth, and her Independence mantra.

Kezia and SLAB have seen Ruthie going over the horizon, and she wants to catch up. Time you did.:greengrin

I'd actually deleted my post as you were replying as it wasn't my best. Never mind, stuck with it now. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I'd actually deleted my post as you were replying as it wasn't my best. Never mind, stuck with it now. :greengrin

:greengrin it's some rant, right enough.:na na:

[High-On-Hibs]

Labour now neck and neck with the Conservatives based on current polling. It's a shame really. Imagine how well Corbyn would be doing right now if it hadn't been for the constant mud slinging from other so called "Labour" MPs. They'll be absolutely furious if he wins.

[ACLeith]

Labour now neck and neck with the Conservatives based on current polling. It's a shame really. Imagine how well Corbyn would be doing right now if it hadn't been for the constant mud slinging from other so called "Labour" MPs. They'll be absolutely furious if he wins.
In recent times polls have been wrong more often than right, in general tending to underestimate the conservative vote - deliberate use of non capital letter there.

Won't be surprised if Friday morning continues that trend, sadly

[JimBHibees]

Labour now neck and neck with the Conservatives based on current polling. It's a shame really. Imagine how well Corbyn would be doing right now if it hadn't been for the constant mud slinging from other so called "Labour" MPs. They'll be absolutely furious if he wins.

There would be a certain irony if Corbyn ends up as PM given the majority of his MP's wanted him out. Hope it happens but cant see it somehow. Polls arent really representative especially when you have the appalling first past the post system in a general election.

[Hibbyradge]

Labour now neck and neck with the Conservatives based on current polling. It's a shame really. Imagine how well Corbyn would be doing right now if it hadn't been for the constant mud slinging from other so called "Labour" MPs. They'll be absolutely furious if he wins.

No they won't. They'll be delighted that they've kept their seats.

Every Labour Party member who I know, pro or anti Corbyn, wants him to win.

The idea that Labour MPs would want the Tories to win power is utterly ludicrous.

[JeMeSouviens]

In recent times polls have been wrong more often than right, in general tending to underestimate the conservative vote - deliberate use of non capital letter there.

Won't be surprised if Friday morning continues that trend, sadly

The different pollsters are adjusting the results in different ways.

Current spread is a 1% Tory lead with Survation to a 12% Tory lead with Comres. If everyone who says they'll vote does we look like getting a hung parliament. If enough can't be arsed - Tory landslide.

In Scotland, latest polls have been:

Yougov: SNP 41, Lab 25, Con 26
Survation: 40, 25, 27
Panelbase: 42, 20, 30
Ipsos-MORI: 43, 25, 25

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No they won't. They'll be delighted that they've kept their seats.

Every Labour Party member who I know, pro or anti Corbyn, wants him to win.

The idea that Labour MPs would want the Tories to win power is utterly ludicrous.

Also correct me if im wrong, but surely the mudslinging was a result of, as opposed to the cause of, the polls being so bad, and so many thought they would lose.

[Hibbyradge]

Also correct me if im wrong, but surely the mudslinging was a result of, as opposed to the cause of, the polls being so bad, and so many thought they would lose.

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.

It has been a remarkable turnaround, i find myself pretty sanguine about him taking office, and part of me kinda wants to see him win just for the sheer unlikeliness of it - and to see if an outsider really can 'drain the swamp' to steal a phrase and shake things up at Westminster.

Also there must be a wider point, that the left maybe isnt as dead as many ( hands-up, i include myself in this) had thought. If nothing else, corbyn has breathed life into that, which in turn has breathed life into this cointry's political discourse, which is hopefully a good thing.

[Betty Boop]

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.
After months and countless posts slagging the man off ? Unbelievable !

[hibsbollah]

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.

That is quite a turnaround :faf:

[Colr]

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.

Knives must be out for May if she does any worst that a significantly increased majority. Looks like Gordon Brown wasn't so dumb after all!!

[Hibbyradge]

After months and countless posts slagging the man off ? Unbelievable !

:faf:

Surely you must be pleased that I've been won round? Isn't that what you'd want to happen?

Or did you just want to keep him all to yourself? :greengrin

Edit: I still don't think he's a great politician, and I wish he wasn't leader, but he is, and he's the best option we've got in this election.

[Hibbyradge]

That is quite a turnaround :faf:

It is.

I would temper it somewhat by pointing out that I was arguing in his favour compared to Theresa May, not necessarily wholly for the man himself, but that's a small distinction at this stage.

Having said that, I'm happy to eat as much humble pie as you want to feed me. You stuck by him when all I saw was an electoral catastrophe in the making.

I've never thought of myself as someone who is easily swayed, so, as you say, it really is remarkable.

[snooky]

Knives must be out for May if she does any worst that a significantly increased majority. Looks like Gordon Brown wasn't so dumb after all!!

Got a lovely letter from that eejit this morning urging me to vote Labour.
TBH, if there's one person that would encourage me to vote anything else BUT Labour, it's him.
He'll probably lose more potential voters than the other way around.
He's worse than Arthur Askey in refusing to accept his day is long gone.
PFO, Gordon.

[pacoluna]

I'd actually deleted my post as you were replying as it wasn't my best. Never mind, stuck with it now. :greengrin
what party do you vote for? Any nationalist puts their view forward on this you seem to lay sly digs.

[marinello59]

what party do you vote for? Any nationalist puts their view forward on this you seem to lay sly digs.

There's nothing sly about my digs, I am upfront with my criticism.
I held my nose and voted SNP last time. I support Independence but I am no nationalist, civic or otherwise. What do you care anyway? you have stated enough times that you have no interest in debate and winning people over.

[lucky]

Indeed. Corbyn's personal ratings were so poor, that most politicos thought Labour would be virtually wiped out.

Theresa May's "dementia tax", her attack on pensions, and her dreadful media (non) performances, have turned voters away from her. At the same time, Corbyn has done remarkably well despite heavy onslaught.

It's an incredible turnaround, even if Labour doesn't win.

I found myself arguing strongly with some people in favour of Corbyn yesterday. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that a few weeks ago.

Your position is extremely common. Lots believed the rubbish that was written and said about Corbyn and subsequently seen he is a strong politician with a caring heart. He stands up against the media onslaught but rarely gets angry. He's looks like he's developing in a PM in waiting, hopefully not to long.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your position is extremely common. Lots believed the rubbish that was written and said about Corbyn and subsequently seen he is a strong politician with a caring heart. He stands up against the media onslaught but rarely gets angry. He's looks like he's developing in a PM in waiting, hopefully not to long.

I agree he has looked very statesmanlike during this campaign. They have polished him up a bit too, amd he has distanced himself from some of his more radical views.

[pacoluna]

There's nothing sly about my digs, I am upfront with my criticism.
I held my nose and voted SNP last time. I support Independence but I am no nationalist, civic or otherwise. What do you care anyway? you have stated enough times that you have no interest in debate and winning people over.
I have no interest in trying to win pensioners over who hold the key. As I said before I Think a generational shift will guarantee independence, during that shift is when I will debate more constructively. I'm willing to be patient.

[Slavers]

I have no interest in trying to win pensioners over who hold the key. As I said before I Think a generational shift will guarantee independence, during that shift is when I will debate more constructively. I'm willing to be patient.

This must an example of the 'inclusive' independent Scotland I often hear about.

[pacoluna]

This must an example of the 'inclusive' independent Scotland I often hear about.
hows it not inclusive, I one day too will be a pensioner.

[Slavers]

hows it not inclusive, I one day too will be a pensioner.

Not including them in your discussions about independence.

Id say as people get older the usually become more wise and less driven by ideology. I think the chances of Scottish independence will be the same in 35 years time than it is now.

[hibsbollah]

It is.

I would temper it somewhat by pointing out that I was arguing in his favour compared to Theresa May, not necessarily wholly for the man himself, but that's a small distinction at this stage.

Having said that, I'm happy to eat as much humble pie as you want to feed me. You stuck by him when all I saw was an electoral catastrophe in the making.

I've never thought of myself as someone who is easily swayed, so, as you say, it really is remarkable.

Theres far too much emphasis on personality in todays politics, which the obsession with polling numbers exacerbate. Corbyns labour have all the policies I identify with in their manifesto, so its a no brainer I'm going to vote for him and I knew I would two and a bit years ago. But JC is not Jesus, although he has the same inititals. Neither is he Judas with an IRA past and an Arafat headscarf. He's just a man.


Im still broadly pessimistic about Thursday. The polling numbers are a guide, nothing more. The Tories could easily still walk away on Friday morning with a 150 seat majority, because of the large numbers of undecided who's stated biggest concern is security and terrorism. Theres a lot of polling evidence this time that Labour are doing better than normal on security, because the discussion has gone towards police numbers and investment, which everyone knows May is weak on. Nobody knows who the large number of newly registered voters will swing to. Yougov are predicting they will mostly go Labour, which is why their projections are much closer (3-4 behind%) than the other pollsters. But have you ever been canvassed on the phone? I havent. Neither has anyone I know. The pollsters sometimes use survey groups of a 1000 or less, sometimes by phone, often online. They've been wrong so often I'm stunned that they seem to drive so much emotion and drama. As it happens, partly because of the mess he inherited up here in Scotland, I dont think he can win. The best I think the 'left' can hope for is a hung parliament, and UK Labour entering some sort of formal or informal agreement with the other progressive parties including the SNP to work together in consensus, either in coalition or more likely as an opposition to block legislation. Which would mean sidelining the current ridiculous Scottish Labour leadership up here in any negotiations, which is all Dugdale et al deserve really.

Im just happy there's some hope with two days to go.

[marinello59]

I have no interest in trying to win pensioners over who hold the key. As I said before I Think a generational shift will guarantee independence, during that shift is when I will debate more constructively. I'm willing to be patient.

I sort of agree with you about patience. However the Brexit vote has forced a quicker vote than many of us, including the SNP leadership would have wanted. There's No voters who could be won over to Yes and others who may not have voted who could be motivated to do so if a positive reason for voting Yes was being consistently put forward by all. I find it frustrating that so much energy is wasted on the negative, it won't win a single voter over.
I'm not so sure that a generational shift towards Independence is guaranteed. Scotland has at various times been solid Conservative, Labour and now SNP. A Labour win at Westminster, unlikely this time but more likely in five years time, will be another real game changer for many.

[pacoluna]

I sort of agree with you about patience. However the Brexit vote has forced a quicker vote than many of us, including the SNP leadership would have wanted. There's No voters who could be won over to Yes and others who may not have voted who could be motivated to do so if a positive reason for voting Yes was being consistently put forward by all. I find it frustrating that so much energy is wasted on the negative, it won't win a single voter over.
I'm not so sure that a generational shift towards Independence is guaranteed. Scotland has at various times been solid Conservative, Labour and now SNP. A Labour win at Westminster, unlikely this time but more likely in five years time, will be another real game changer for many.

Nationalists won't just turn to unionism because of Labour getting in gvment, they are part of the problem. This is a movement that belongs to no party.

[pacoluna]

Not including them in your discussions about independence.

Id say as people get older the usually become more wise and less driven by ideology. I think the chances of Scottish independence will be the same in 35 years time than it is now.

Today's pensioners by a heavy majority are not for turning, I'm being inclusive by respecting that.

[marinello59]

Nationalists won't just turn to unionism because of Labour getting in gvment, they are part of the problem. This is a movement that belongs to no party.

That's where your own prejudice comes in to play, there are many of us who don't automatically think Unionist when they look at other parties. The Labour Movement can be just as attractive a proposition to new young voters as nationalism has been to your generation.

[pacoluna]

That's where your own prejudice comes in to play, there are many of us who don't automatically think Unionist when they look at other parties. The Labour Movement can be just as attractive a proposition to new young voters as nationalism has been to your generation.
Nationalist influence will be passed down generations in Scotland just like the "Labour movement" was.

[ronaldo7]

I thought the Labour party had guaranteed the Barnett formula in the Vow?

It seems Labour now want to abolish it. Carwyn Jones, the Leader of Labour in Wales indicating Barnett is on the way out, as "That's what the manifesto says"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40161600

[marinello59]

Nationalist influence will be passed down generations in Scotland just like the "Labour movement" was.

So you support an Independent Scotland because your parents did?
Everything is subject to change, it's ridiculous to believe that the SNP won't eventually meet the same fate as Labour before them in eventually losIng their dominant position in Scotland. Who knows who will replace them? It's kind of arrogant to think that the next generation won't come up with their own solutions. Remember Independence on its own will change nothing.

[marinello59]

I thought the Labour party had guaranteed the Barnett formula in the Vow?

It seems Labour now want to abolish it. Carwyn Jones, the Leader of Labour in Wales indicating Barnett is on the way out, as "That's what the manifesto says"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40161600

It's odd that he has chosen to break ranks on this one but you can see why he has, it doesn't really work for Wales. Is it actually in their manifesto? :confused:

[ronaldo7]

It's odd that he has chosen to break ranks on this one but you can see why he has, it doesn't really work for Wales. Is it actually in their manifesto? :confused:

It seems Labour in Wales, Scotland, and the UK have different wording in their documents.

[pacoluna]

So you support an Independent Scotland because your parents did?
Everything is subject to change, it's ridiculous to believe that the SNP won't eventually meet the same fate as Labour before them in eventually losIng their dominant position in Scotland. Who knows who will replace them? It's kind of arrogant to think that the next generation won't come up with their own solutions. Remember Independence on its own will change nothing.
SNP will remain in power for as long as the union lasts.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So you support an Independent Scotland because your parents did?
Everything is subject to change, it's ridiculous to believe that the SNP won't eventually meet the same fate as Labour before them in eventually losIng their dominant position in Scotland. Who knows who will replace them? It's kind of arrogant to think that the next generation won't come up with their own solutions. Remember Independence on its own will change nothing.

In this era of flash-mass movements, youth with an attention span based on twitter and youtube, and uncertain economics, im surprised anyone would confidently predict the next five years, never mind generations into the future.

Also, the ageing population could have a distorting effect - wr could easily have another 5 or 10 general elections where a large chunk of the voting population are either baby boomers, ot those who stand to inherit considerable property wealth from baby-boomers, which could have an impact.

[marinello59]

SNP will remain in power for as long as the union lasts.

That's the level of complacency and arrogance that saw New Labour decline in Scotland and the Tories before them. The SNP are not the Yes campaign, their less than impressive record in Goverment in Scotland will see them start to lose ground. Throw in an attractive alternative and anything can happen.

[hibsbollah]

SNP will remain in power for as long as the union lasts.

That's a crazy arrogant assumption. If the last 12 months should have taught anybody anything is that old cliché about a week in politics being a long time. The only thing that's absolutely certain is that everything will always change.

[pacoluna]

That's the level of complacency and arrogance that saw New Labour decline in Scotland and the Tories before them. The SNP are not the Yes campaign, their less than impressive record in Goverment in Scotland will see them start to lose ground. Throw in an attractive alternative and anything can happen.
As explained before the comparison is invalid. This is not about party politics it's about our Constitutional beliefs. The SNP are the beneficiaries of this movement, a movement that will only gain numbers. As long as the SNP are the only large pro independence party they will continue to get the nationalist vote, the only way the SNP will ever be defeated is if unionist parties amalgamated.

[pacoluna]

That's a crazy arrogant assumption. If the last 12 months should have taught anybody anything is that old cliché about a week in politics being a long time. The only thing that's absolutely certain is that everything will always change.

Nationalists have a voice now, a movement and it won't go away .

[marinello59]

As explained before the comparison is invalid. This is not about party politics it's about our Constitutional beliefs. The SNP are the beneficiaries of this movement, a movement that will only gain numbers. As long as the SNP are the only large pro independence party they will continue to get the nationalist vote, it's simple really.

No, it's not that simple. Independence may be our preferred option but their are other attractive options out there. You can't deny that if the Tories were removed from power it would make Independence less attractive to many and may even seem pointless to future generations.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nationalists have a voice now, a movement and it won't go away .

Do you really believe that the yes movement would be anyhting without the SNP?

I think you are downplaying their importance, their know how, their discipline and of course, their money.

[marinello59]

That's a crazy arrogant assumption. If the last 12 months should have taught anybody anything is that old cliché about a week in politics being a long time. The only thing that's absolutely certain is that everything will always change.

You have put that much better than I did.

[pacoluna]

No, it's not that simple. Independence may be our preferred option but their are other attractive options out there. You can't deny that if the Tories were removed from power it would make Independence less attractive to many and may even seem pointless to future generations.
Nationalists don't believe in WM regardless of who's in power. It will only gain momentum as said before. I agree that there are many who vote SNP through policies however the vast majority is purely down to their constitutional beliefs and of course a mixture of both.

[Colr]

I'll be disappointed that if this Labour campaign ends in failure, that a bland Tory lite version of the party reappears. It has been fascinating to see a genuine alternative to the Tories over the last few weeks.

There needs to be a proper alternative.

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

[ronaldo7]

That's the level of complacency and arrogance that saw New Labour decline in Scotland and the Tories before them. The SNP are not the Yes campaign, their less than impressive record in Goverment in Scotland will see them start to lose ground. Throw in an attractive alternative and anything can happen.

I'll continue to remind to of that record if you keep saying it's less than impressive.:greengrin

In The Beginning
Record health funding – over £13 billion in 2017, £3.6 billion more than when we took office.
Free, high quality childcare has been increased to 16 hours a week for all 3 and 4 year old’s – up from 12.5 hours in 2007 – and extended to 2 year olds from low income households, saving families up to £2,500 per child per year in total.
More people in employment in Scotland than the pre-recession high point, outperforming the UK on female employment and inactivity rates.
Higher exam passes up by a third since 2007, and we’re investing record amounts in schools to close the attainment gap. £120 million will go direct to schools this year alone.
We exceeded our world-leading target to reduce emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 – six years early.
1.3 million older and disabled people*benefit from free public transport through the National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme – now extended to help disabled veterans.
Target to build 30,000*affordable homes exceeded, with an investment of £1.7 billion.
Free tuition protected, saving students in Scotland up to £27,000 compared to the cost of studying in England.
To help protect jobs and businesses through the recession, we’ve slashed or abolished business rates for 100,000 premises – saving small businesses £1.2 billion to date.
78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Prescription charges abolished. In England, patients are forced to pay £8.40 per item.
Road Equivalent Tariff rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides, cutting fares by around 40%.
178,000 low income households helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund since it was established in 2013.
By keeping Scottish Water in public hands customers pay less for a better service – charges for the average household bill are £39 lower than in England and Wales.*
We’ve kept Council Tax down. Bills are lower in Scotland than in England – by between £300 and £400.
We’re leading the way on fair pay. Scotland has the highest proportion of employees in the UK paid at least the Living Wage.
16 and 17 year olds now have the right to vote in Scottish Parliament and local government elections.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Scotland, with one of the most progressive equal marriage laws in the world, has been rated the best country in Europe for LGBTI equality and human rights for the second year running.
We’re standing up for Scottish industry. We have secured a future for Scottish steel, the last remaining aluminium smelter at Lochaber, and Ferguson shipyard too.

[pacoluna]

Do you really believe that the yes movement would be anyhting without the SNP?

I think you are downplaying their importance, their know how, their discipline and of course, their money.

We need each other that's evident. It's why they are in power and have been for ten years.

[pacoluna]

In this era of flash-mass movements, youth with an attention span based on twitter and youtube, and uncertain economics, im surprised anyone would confidently predict the next five years, never mind generations into the future.

Also, the ageing population could have a distorting effect - wr could easily have another 5 or 10 general elections where a large chunk of the voting population are either baby boomers, ot those who stand to inherit considerable property wealth from baby-boomers, which could have an impact.
You seem rattled by the the youth of today. More engaged than ever.

[Mon Dieu4]

That's a crazy arrogant assumption. If the last 12 months should have taught anybody anything is that old cliché about a week in politics being a long time. The only thing that's absolutely certain is that everything will always change.

Welcome back you big communist!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You seem rattled by the the youth of today. More engaged than ever.

Ah, the arrogance of youth. Thinking they are the first people to do everything, and no generation ever before was like them. but there is nothing new under the sun, amd every generation jas felt like that. Nationalism is just the current political incarnation.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We need each other that's evident. It's why they are in power and have been for ten years.

I think that would be the very definition of an asymmetric relationship.

Make no mistake, the nationalist movement would still be sitting in a caravan on Calton Hill if it weren't for the SNP. You 'grass roots' guys ( im not evrn sure what that means, is it the political equivalent of artisan bread?) are piggy-backing on the SNPs success.

[ronaldo7]

Alistair Weir, the Vice chair of Labour in Stirling has thrown his weight behind Ruth Davidson.

I wonder why Kezia's not intervened in this one?

[marinello59]

Alistair Weir, the Vice chair of Labour in Stirling has thrown his weight behind Ruth Davidson.

I wonder why Kezia's not intervened in this one?

I read his letter, it's just odd. Looks like he has just thrown his toys out of the pram because he didn't get his own way rather than any genuine principled stand. Dugdale will be lucky to still be in post this time next week.

[JimBHibees]

Alistair Weir, the Vice chair of Labour in Stirling has thrown his weight behind Ruth Davidson.

I wonder why Kezia's not intervened in this one?

You've got to be kidding.

[ronaldo7]

You've got to be kidding.

Nope.

He said that due to the 4 Labour councillors forming a coalition with the SNP, he'd be supporting Ruth and co.

[pacoluna]

Ah, the arrogance of youth. Thinking they are the first people to do everything, and no generation ever before was like them. but there is nothing new under the sun, amd every generation jas felt like that. Nationalism is just the current political incarnation.

you wish. even with majority of pensioners on your side you will still oppose a 2nd referendum.. wonder why?

[pacoluna]

I think that would be the very definition of an asymmetric relationship.

Make no mistake, the nationalist movement would still be sitting in a caravan on Calton Hill if it weren't for the SNP. You 'grass roots' guys ( im not evrn sure what that means, is it the political equivalent of artisan bread?) are piggy-backing on the SNPs success.

you seem upset.

[Betty Boop]

Jezza still drawing massive crowds. :flag:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

you wish. even with majority of pensioners on your side you will still oppose a 2nd referendum.. wonder why?

I oppose it because we just had one, the side i voted for lost but it was agreed before hand, in good faith, that all sides would respect the result. That the push for a second ref began the very next day, always struck me as backsliding and acting in bad faith.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

you seem upset.

Why would i be upset?

You grass roots guys are like a student politics club, full of righteous indignation, your own importance and frothing at the mouth, sure of your imminent victory.

If scotland votes for indy, or more likely imo arrives there via a slow amd incremental process, thats fine.

But im fairly sure it wont happen because a bunch of students marched with some scotland flags through glasgow.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Jezza still drawing massive crowds. :flag:

He offers hope to millions of people who are suffering. Sadly, I don't think it will be enough, but the Labour manifesto deserves far more than a Tory landslide. Labour is speaking up for traditional Labour areas and principles for the first time since John Smith was leader, which terrifies the neoliberal consensus. However, if it's a heavy defeat, just watch the right wingers in the PLP immediately make their move to drag Labour back to Blairism, which will once again turn off traditional Labour areas.

[easty]

Diane Abbot been replaced this morning.

http://news.sky.com/story/diane-abbott-stepping-aside-as-shadow-home-secretary-for-period-of-ill-health-10906891

[Hibernia&Alba]

Diane Abbot been replaced this morning.

http://news.sky.com/story/diane-abbott-stepping-aside-as-shadow-home-secretary-for-period-of-ill-health-10906891

Perhaps she is genuinely unwell, but she's also useless. Her reputation for not studying her brief is well known, and she's made an arse of herself numerous times.

[pacoluna]

Why would i be upset?

You grass roots guys are like a student politics club, full of righteous indignation, your own importance and frothing at the mouth, sure of your imminent victory.

If scotland votes for indy, or more likely imo arrives there via a slow amd incremental process, thats fine.

But im fairly sure it wont happen because a bunch of students marched with some scotland flags through glasgow.
why do you think jeremy corbyn is on the verge of the biggest upset in political history? nothing to do with "students", full of righteous indignation frothing at the mouth as you would like to call it, in other words a movement.

[snooky]

Perhaps she is genuinely unwell, but she's also useless. Her reputation for not studying her brief is well known, and she's made an arse of herself numerous times.

While it's a shame about her health, she is a loose canon and as far as Labour is concerned, she is better being well away from the battlefront.

[marinello59]

Perhaps she is genuinely unwell, but she's also useless. Her reputation for not studying her brief is well known, and she's made an arse of herself numerous times.

Her Sky appearance the other day was a real train wreck, apparently booked directly by herself rather than through Labour Party channels. She looked extremely stressed through out though, it would not surprise me if there were other causes to her poor performance than mere incompetence. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

[JimBHibees]

Her Sky appearance the other day was a real train wreck, apparently booked directly by herself rather than through Labour Party channels. She looked extremely stressed through out though, it would not surprise me if there were other causes to her poor performance than mere incompetence. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

You can be sure the press, tories and voters wont though.

[ballengeich]

Perhaps she is genuinely unwell, but she's also useless. Her reputation for not studying her brief is well known, and she's made an arse of herself numerous times.

She's similar to Corby, but less sleekit.

[marinello59]

You can be sure the press, tories and voters wont though.

Probably not.
Here's Bella Caledonia's take on it.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/07/dog-whistle-politics-serve-no-one/

[snooky]

Probably not.
Here's Bella Caledonia's take on it.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/07/dog-whistle-politics-serve-no-one/

An eye-opener for anybody who has been going about with their eyes shut (or half shut).
Democracy is on its knees.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Her Sky appearance the other day was a real train wreck, apparently booked directly by herself rather than through Labour Party channels. She looked extremely stressed through out though, it would not surprise me if there were other causes to her poor performance than mere incompetence. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

Despite finding her quite irritating and disagreeing with a lot of what she says, I do feel quite sorry for her and the press she gets is a bit unfair. She's clearly out of her depth and only getting so much air time is because so many people have deserted the shadow cabinet. I'd guess her poor performances are a combination of stress and incompetence.

[High-On-Hibs]

:faf:

Surely you must be pleased that I've been won round? Isn't that what you'd want to happen?

Or did you just want to keep him all to yourself? :greengrin

Edit: I still don't think he's a great politician, and I wish he wasn't leader, but he is, and he's the best option we've got in this election.

So do you suddenly believe in Corbyns policies now?

[JimBHibees]

Probably not.
Here's Bella Caledonia's take on it.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/07/dog-whistle-politics-serve-no-one/

Couldnt agree more with that article. The personalised abuse has become the norm encouraged by an emboldened right wing press who appear to be untouchable. Truly shameful.

[JeMeSouviens]

No, it's not that simple. Independence may be our preferred option but their are other attractive options out there. You can't deny that if the Tories were removed from power it would make Independence less attractive to many and may even seem pointless to future generations.

I'm sure there will be short term fluctuation but the basic principle that Scotland should govern itself won't go away. Even at the height of post-war Britishness in the 50s, 2M Scots signed a covenant seeking Home Rule. Unless the UK can adapt itself to provide genuine Scottish self government, I think independence is inevitable eventually.

Edit: and the SNP might not be the vehicle that gets us there, cf. the Irish Parliamentary Party.

[High-On-Hibs]

Been hearing that there is a planned "revolt" by the PLP straight after the election, regardless of the outcome. Will be interesting to see how true that is.

[marinello59]

Been hearing that there is a planned "revolt" by the PLP straight after the election, regardless of the outcome. Will be interesting to see how true that is.

Regardless of the result? Where did you hear this?

[High-On-Hibs]

Regardless of the result? Where did you hear this?

Apparently being reported by the financial times. But it could be complete rubbish. Will just have to wait and see.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Been hearing that there is a planned "revolt" by the PLP straight after the election, regardless of the outcome. Will be interesting to see how true that is.

Labour MP for Barrow, John Woodcock, has said he would demand his party seek a new leader if Labour wins the election. Unbelievable given Corbyn initially won against the odds, survived a leadership challenge AND (a big if) if he somehow pulls of the most remarkable GE election victory parasites like Woodcock will be out to knife him in the back again.

[Hibbyradge]

So do you suddenly believe in Corbyns policies now?

Who said anything about his policies?

[Betty Boop]

Jack Monroe on Diane Abbot


https://cookingonabootstrap.com/2017/06/07/we-need-to-talk-about-diane-abbott-now-explicit-content/

[Colr]

Jack Monroe on Diane Abbot


https://cookingonabootstrap.com/2017/06/07/we-need-to-talk-about-diane-abbott-now-explicit-content/

She's got a point.

[hibsbollah]

Jack Monroe on Diane Abbot


https://cookingonabootstrap.com/2017/06/07/we-need-to-talk-about-diane-abbott-now-explicit-content/

What a great article. Why is it that in this case, the sympathy that would normally follow a fellow human being too ill to work is suspended because she's a politician? And if it is stress-related, I thought these days that the stigma that used to follow mental illness around had been replaced by empathy? Not in this case. I suspect some of the extra nastiness that follows her around is because some people just dont like a successful black woman who speaks up about things she believes in.

[JeMeSouviens]

What a great article. Why is it that in this case, the sympathy that would normally follow a fellow human being too ill to work is suspended because she's a politician? And if it is stress-related, I thought these days that the stigma that used to follow mental illness around had been replaced by empathy? Not in this case. I suspect some of the extra nastiness that follows her around is because some people just dont like a successful black woman who speaks up about things she believes in.

I might be wrong but I think it's because there's a cynical belief that she's not really ill and has in fact been sidelined before she can do any further political damage to Labour's prospects.

[Colr]

I might be wrong but I think it's because there's a cynical belief that she's not really ill and has in fact been sidelined before she can do any further political damage to Labour's prospects.

She has seemed very below par over the last months. She's clearly not stupid so there must be something behind it - even if that's just being scunnered by the whole process.

She also doesn't present as middle class enough to a media which increasingly despises the working class and is keen to see anyone exceeding their background put back in their lace so they can continue to stick up all the opportunities in this country.

[marinello59]

She has seemed very below par over the last months. She's clearly not stupid so there must be something behind it - even if that's just being scunnered by the whole process.

She also doesn't present as middle class enough to a media which increasingly despises the working class and is keen to see anyone exceeding their background put back in their lace so they can continue to stick up all the opportunities in this country.

There was something wrong during the Sky appearance the other day, definitely. I'm not a great fan of hers but a lot of the abuse she gets is well over the top and is racially motivated. She has had that for years, it would bring anybody down. I hope she gets well soon.

[steakbake]

There was something wrong during the Sky appearance the other day, definitely. I'm not a great fan of hers but a lot of the abuse she gets is well over the top and is racially motivated. She has had that for years, it would bring anybody down. I hope she gets well soon.

Totally agree - the press have vilified her. There's lots of denials that it is racially motivated (there usually is), but there are far worse politicians who deserve a far harder time that get treated with more courtesy and respect.

[Hibbyradge]

I might be wrong but I think it's because there's a cynical belief that she's not really ill and has in fact been sidelined before she can do any further political damage to Labour's prospects.

I've seen tweets saying that her friends think she had no say in the sidelining.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What a great article. Why is it that in this case, the sympathy that would normally follow a fellow human being too ill to work is suspended because she's a politician? And if it is stress-related, I thought these days that the stigma that used to follow mental illness around had been replaced by empathy? Not in this case. I suspect some of the extra nastiness that follows her around is because some people just dont like a successful black woman who speaks up about things she believes in.

As jezza said, if you put yourself out there, you have to accept the gyp that goes with it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

She has seemed very below par over the last months. She's clearly not stupid so there must be something behind it - even if that's just being scunnered by the whole process.

She also doesn't present as middle class enough to a media which increasingly despises the working class and is keen to see anyone exceeding their background put back in their lace so they can continue to stick up all the opportunities in this country.

You think? Shes a very spoken lawyer and politician, very middle class

[overdrive]

There was something wrong during the Sky appearance the other day, definitely. I'm not a great fan of hers but a lot of the abuse she gets is well over the top and is racially motivated. She has had that for years, it would bring anybody down. I hope she gets well soon.

She looked absent minded, as if she wasn't really there. She reminded me a bit of my wife's grandmother who suffers from Alzheimers (I'm not saying that's what is wrong with her) with the sort of vacant look on her face.

[marinello59]

As jezza said, if you put yourself out there, you have to accept the gyp that goes with it.

Nobody should have to accept a lot of the stuff she gets.

[heretoday]

Totally agree - the press have vilified her. There's lots of denials that it is racially motivated (there usually is), but there are far worse politicians who deserve a far harder time that get treated with more courtesy and respect.

Hear hear.

[JeMeSouviens]

Totally agree - the press have vilified her. There's lots of denials that it is racially motivated (there usually is), but there are far worse politicians who deserve a far harder time that get treated with more courtesy and respect.

True. She's obv arsed up a couple of interviews but any worse than Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Michael Fallon, May herself? I don't think so.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nobody should have to accept a lot of the stuff she gets.

I maybe dont know the full extent of the stuff she does get, but the abuse she got for being a hypocrite was fair enough.

I dont mind her, used to think ahe was quite good on this week but she looks out of her depth with the home office brief.

[Colr]

You think? Shes a very spoken lawyer and politician, very middle class

Her father was a welder.

[RIP]

I think that after the GE our Hibby will face internal pressure due to her adoption of the Darling/Brown 'Better Together' Unionist campaign strategy. That pair are still pulling the strings in Scotland with their laboratory creation Scotland in Union. A Blairite collusion with the Tory and LibDem elite against the Nats is favoured over a Corbyn socialist campaign in this country.

[CapitalGreen]

I maybe dont know the full extent of the stuff she does get, but the abuse she got for being a hypocrite was fair enough.

I dont mind her, used to think ahe was quite good on this week but she looks out of her depth with the home office brief.

Do you perhaps mean criticism or do you really think someone should be abused for their views on education?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Her father was a welder.

But shes not - upward mobility in action.

Just think what she would have achieved if it hadn't been for all those racists amd sexists keeping her down eh.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Do you perhaps mean criticism or do you really think someone should be abused for their views on education?

Yes, i stand corrected- i did mean criticism.

I generally dont count internet abuse, as everyone seems to get it and i dont personally use them so i dont really see it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'll continue to remind to of that record if you keep saying it's less than impressive.:greengrin

In The Beginning
Record health funding – over £13 billion in 2017, £3.6 billion more than when we took office.
Free, high quality childcare has been increased to 16 hours a week for all 3 and 4 year old’s – up from 12.5 hours in 2007 – and extended to 2 year olds from low income households, saving families up to £2,500 per child per year in total.
More people in employment in Scotland than the pre-recession high point, outperforming the UK on female employment and inactivity rates.
Higher exam passes up by a third since 2007, and we’re investing record amounts in schools to close the attainment gap. £120 million will go direct to schools this year alone.
We exceeded our world-leading target to reduce emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 – six years early.
1.3 million older and disabled people*benefit from free public transport through the National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme – now extended to help disabled veterans.
Target to build 30,000*affordable homes exceeded, with an investment of £1.7 billion.
Free tuition protected, saving students in Scotland up to £27,000 compared to the cost of studying in England.
To help protect jobs and businesses through the recession, we’ve slashed or abolished business rates for 100,000 premises – saving small businesses £1.2 billion to date.
78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Prescription charges abolished. In England, patients are forced to pay £8.40 per item.
Road Equivalent Tariff rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides, cutting fares by around 40%.
178,000 low income households helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund since it was established in 2013.
By keeping Scottish Water in public hands customers pay less for a better service – charges for the average household bill are £39 lower than in England and Wales.*
We’ve kept Council Tax down. Bills are lower in Scotland than in England – by between £300 and £400.
We’re leading the way on fair pay. Scotland has the highest proportion of employees in the UK paid at least the Living Wage.
16 and 17 year olds now have the right to vote in Scottish Parliament and local government elections.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Scotland, with one of the most progressive equal marriage laws in the world, has been rated the best country in Europe for LGBTI equality and human rights for the second year running.
We’re standing up for Scottish industry. We have secured a future for Scottish steel, the last remaining aluminium smelter at Lochaber, and Ferguson shipyard too.

Wow!

You've criticised people elsewhere for copy and pasting, but you seem to have fallen victim to it yourself. And it's not like I haven't warned you before :greengrin.

Repeating mindless propaganda will backfire unless you give it a bit of critical analysis. Just pasting stats won't convince people.

The first line in your propaganda doesn't make sense.

You say you are spending £3.6bn more on health than when you took office.

I am not going to quibble about that amount, if you say it's true then I will believe you.

What's the actual impact of that extra money though?

The SNP government sets measures and indicators for how the Scottish NHS performs.

On its key measures and targets - things like how long you wait in A+E, how long you are kept in hospital when fit to go home - the government isn't meeting its targets, it's actually getting worse.

There's no point spending £3.6 billion of our money to make things worse, is there? Who is taking responsibility?

These are measures the SNP government set and prioritised. They wanted to put additional funding into.

They aren't being met but we are chucking billions of pounds extra into failure.

Is that really something you want as the first line in your list of achievements?

Are me and you really paying more for this government to waste our money making things worse?

You must agree, their own figures say we are?

Two other general points about your grand list.

You list the number of people in receipt of free personal care.

That was a policy brought in to law under Labour and it's a universal benefit for any over-65 in receipt of social care.

The number of people who benefit is nothing to do with the SNP, it's simply a case of being old enough and needing care. It's a bit shameful and fraudulent to claim otherwise. I'm not sure what I expect from the SNP but I would have hoped for a bit of honesty?

Other general point is a bit embarassing. Your list is full of comparisons to England.

I expect a bit better.

I know a lot of things aren't good in England. I also know that a lot of things in Scotland aren't very good.

It feels like a cop-out to say that things are slightly worse in England, when your party has had several years to make things better here.

It also feels a cop-out that you aren't owning responsibility for ten years of government and decision-making.

When does someone take a bit of responsibility?

I'm always wary about political claims that either list absolute amounts (your NHS spending claims) or are comparative (your benchmarking against England).

Neither actually speak to the impact. It doesn't actually matter if we spend an extra however many billion, if it's not getting us to see a nurse or GP in time (truth is it's paying for locums and agency nurses who are covering the recruitment crisis).

And our performance targets are shocking.

Saying it's better than England is like being the team who just avoided relegation boasting, "...They are abysmal,... but we were only dreadful"

Is that the SNP vision. Really?

When will someone take responsibility?

[Pete]

The future of the Labour Party? The future is bright.

I think a lot of the Blairite/progress types will get on the bandwagon so to speak after finding out that Mr Corbyn is indeed electable.

The old ways of doing things are disappearing and the young have spoken... Corbyn is now cool for reasons I can't even begin to understand because I'm over 40. It's been an extremely clever campaign in some ways but when you think about it all that's happened is that the old propaganda machines such as the bias media outlets have been ignored. Youngsters aren't stupid and can see right through these people but above all they don't like being preached to and told what's right for them by the establishment. That will never change.

The Unionist vote in Scotland needs to be harnessed through strong leadership and judging the ever changing mood.

I'm confident that it will and the work starts now as far as I'm concerned. This feels like the mid nineties again regarding political momentum.

[ronaldo7]

Wow!

You've criticised people elsewhere for copy and pasting, but you seem to have fallen victim to it yourself. And it's not like I haven't warned you before :greengrin.

Repeating mindless propaganda will backfire unless you give it a bit of critical analysis. Just pasting stats won't convince people.

The first line in your propaganda doesn't make sense.

You say you are spending £3.6bn more on health than when you took office.

I am not going to quibble about that amount, if you say it's true then I will believe you.

What's the actual impact of that extra money though?

The SNP government sets measures and indicators for how the Scottish NHS performs.

On its key measures and targets - things like how long you wait in A+E, how long you are kept in hospital when fit to go home - the government isn't meeting its targets, it's actually getting worse.

There's no point spending £3.6 billion of our money to make things worse, is there? Who is taking responsibility?

These are measures the SNP government set and prioritised. They wanted to put additional funding into.

They aren't being met but we are chucking billions of pounds extra into failure.

Is that really something you want as the first line in your list of achievements?

Are me and you really paying more for this government to waste our money making things worse?

You must agree, their own figures say we are?

Two other general points about your grand list.

You list the number of people in receipt of free personal care.

That was a policy brought in to law under Labour and it's a universal benefit for any over-65 in receipt of social care.

The number of people who benefit is nothing to do with the SNP, it's simply a case of being old enough and needing care. It's a bit shameful and fraudulent to claim otherwise. I'm not sure what I expect from the SNP but I would have hoped for a bit of honesty?

Other general point is a bit embarassing. Your list is full of comparisons to England.

I expect a bit better.

I know a lot of things aren't good in England. I also know that a lot of things in Scotland aren't very good.

It feels like a cop-out to say that things are slightly worse in England, when your party has had several years to make things better here.

It also feels a cop-out that you aren't owning responsibility for ten years of government and decision-making.

When does someone take a bit of responsibility?

I'm always wary about political claims that either list absolute amounts (your NHS spending claims) or are comparative (your benchmarking against England).

Neither actually speak to the impact. It doesn't actually matter if we spend an extra however many billion, if it's not getting us to see a nurse or GP in time (truth is it's paying for locums and agency nurses who are covering the recruitment crisis).

And our performance targets are shocking.

Saying it's better than England is like being the team who just avoided relegation boasting, "...They are abysmal,... but we were only dreadful"

Is that the SNP vision. Really?

When will someone take responsibility?


I bet yer beilin that the NHS has more cash now that anytime under your lot. More people, and better care.

You just can't handle that we're better than you.

The only people I've mentioned re copy and pasting, is the Labour party on Tuition fees, free school meals, and austerity, just like the SNP manifesto:aok:

[marinello59]

You just can't handle that we're better than you.



That is one of the funniest lines I have read on any debate on here. Top notch stuff R7. :faf:

[McD]

I bet yer beilin that the NHS has more cash now that anytime under your lot. More people, and better care.

You just can't handle that we're better than you.

The only people I've mentioned re copy and pasting, is the Labour party on Tuition fees, free school meals, and austerity, just like the SNP manifesto:aok:


You're quick to take others to task for not answering your posts, yet you've ignored everything said to you here except the copy and paste comment.

Below your usual standards R7.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/10/victory-hope-youth-turnout-election-politics

Gary Younge, one of the very few writers in the Guardian who wasn't campaigning against Corbyn during the election. A great article worth reading if only for the prescient Orwell quote.

[marinello59]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/10/victory-hope-youth-turnout-election-politics

Gary Younge, one of the very few writers in the Guardian who wasn't campaigning against Corbyn during the election. A great article worth reading if only for the prescient Orwell quote.

I'm one of those that Corbyn has proved wrong, I really did not get what was happening with him until well in to the election campaign. That's an excellent article. Corbyn has given hope to all of us who felt that the Labour Party had totally lost touch with its roots.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm one of those that Corbyn has proved wrong, I really did not get what was happening with him until well in to the election campaign. That's an excellent article. Corbyn has given hope to all of us who felt that the Labour Party had totally lost touch with its roots.

Ditto.

What I've noticed as well is rather than adopting a 'told you so' attitude and cold shouldering those of us who doubted him is that the Corbyn supporters have generally seem ready to welcome people into the fold with open arms.

I could even be tempted to part with my membership fee for the 1st time in 6 years.

[jacomo]

Ditto.

What I've noticed as well is rather than adopting a 'told you so' attitude and cold shouldering those of us who doubted him is that the Corbyn supporters have generally seem ready to welcome people into the fold with open arms.

I could even be tempted to part with my membership fee for the 1st time in 6 years.


Future is bright if Labour unite.

Corbyn has his faults but these were amplified by his PLP who just didn't back him.

I've spoken to Labour MPs who genuinely resented the surge in membership. Absolutely insane.

Odious creep Chris Leslie is already sniping from the side lines today. He's out. The others better smarten up and fast.

[Mibbes Aye]

I bet yer beilin that the NHS has more cash now that anytime under your lot. More people, and better care.

You just can't handle that we're better than you.

The only people I've mentioned re copy and pasting, is the Labour party on Tuition fees, free school meals, and austerity, just like the SNP manifesto:aok:

It's not better care.

Your own stats show it hasn't improved and instead it's got worse.

So all those extra billions are being wasted.

That's our money. What a shambles.

[ronaldo7]

It's not better care.

Your own stats show it hasn't improved and instead it's got worse.

So all those extra billions are being wasted.

That's our money. What a shambles.

:faf:

We've been over this numerous times MA. Your expletives are getting more of a shambles, shocking, and abysmal.:wink: See what I did there.:greengrin

You don't seem to think the NHS in SCOTLAND is not doing too well, although after all of the improvements since your lot were in power in 2007, the patient satisfaction record says otherwise.

If you want other comparisons, take a look at NHS Wales, where your lot are in power, then come back and tell me we're Abysmal, shocking and a shambles.


"There is a wide split in satisfaction between England, Wales and Scotland.
Wales sits bottom of the heap, with barely half of people (51%) - either very or quite satisfied.
That compared with 65% in England and 75% in Scotland, where there has been a huge surge in the past year"

[Mibbes Aye]

:faf:

We've been over this numerous times MA. Your expletives are getting more of a shambles, shocking, and abysmal.:wink: See what I did there.:greengrin

You don't seem to think the NHS in SCOTLAND is not doing too well, although after all of the improvements since your lot were in power in 2007, the patient satisfaction record says otherwise.

If you want other comparisons, take a look at NHS Wales, where your lot are in power, then come back and tell me we're Abysmal, shocking and a shambles.


"There is a wide split in satisfaction between England, Wales and Scotland.
Wales sits bottom of the heap, with barely half of people (51%) - either very or quite satisfied.
That compared with 65% in England and 75% in Scotland, where there has been a huge surge in the past year"

You are doing it again.

It doesn't matter what things are like in comparison to Wales.

What matters is that the SNP says things like A+E waiting times and delayed discharge levels are a priority. And all that extra money hasn't made things better. Things have got worse.

That's failure isn't it? A lost decade and billions of our money squandered.

[Mibbes Aye]

And while we are at it ronaldo7, I seem to recently recall you hounding another poster repeatedly (Southsideharp Bhoy perhaps?) because you didn't feel he answered your question.

I'm only asking this for a second time. Why are you claiming free personal care as an SNP achievement?

That's a lie, isn't it. It was introduced under Labour.

[cabbageandribs1875]

as a very regular user of NHS services in scotland, i can only say..... keep up the good work :agree:





proud

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And while we are at it ronaldo7, I seem to recently recall you hounding another poster repeatedly (Southsideharp Bhoy perhaps?) because you didn't feel he answered your question.

I'm only asking this for a second time. Why are you claiming free personal care as an SNP achievement?

That's a lie, isn't it. It was introduced under Labour.

He did, although i actuallydid answer his question, i just didnt do it straight away.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And while we are at it ronaldo7, I seem to recently recall you hounding another poster repeatedly (Southsideharp Bhoy perhaps?) because you didn't feel he answered your question.

I'm only asking this for a second time. Why are you claiming free personal care as an SNP achievement?

That's a lie, isn't it. It was introduced under Labour.

Because he has copied and pasted a list from somewhere, he doesnt think about his replies, he just regurgitates SNP / scottish govt lines.

[ronaldo7]

You are doing it again.

It doesn't matter what things are like in comparison to Wales.

What matters is that the SNP says things like A+E waiting times and delayed discharge levels are a priority. And all that extra money hasn't made things better. Things have got worse.

That's failure isn't it? A lost decade and billions of our money squandered.

I know you don't want Wales referenced. They're run by your lot. Now that's a shambles.

As for a&e. Best performing in the UK. #proud.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-resign-general-election-john-mcdonnell-a7153196.html

That was less than a year ago.

I guess losing to the worst Tory leader in living memory by a mere 60 seats doesn't count. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Because he has copied and pasted a list from somewhere, he doesnt think about his replies, he just regurgitates SNP / scottish govt lines.

:boo hoo:

[Mibbes Aye]

I know you don't want Wales referenced. They're run by your lot. Now that's a shambles.

As for a&e. Best performing in the UK. #proud.

You cant answer a thing, can you?

Third time, only because you kept hounding others when you had your party checklist handy.

You claimed free personal care as an SNP achievement. It was brought in under Labour.

Do you want to admit you lied or were you just deceived by the propaganda you were asked to forward on.

The first makes you a liar, the second makes you look stupid.

Sorry mate, but that's a tough choice.

[ronaldo7]

I'll continue to remind to of that record if you keep saying it's less than impressive.:greengrin

In The Beginning
Record health funding – over £13 billion in 2017, £3.6 billion more than when we took office.
Free, high quality childcare has been increased to 16 hours a week for all 3 and 4 year old’s – up from 12.5 hours in 2007 – and extended to 2 year olds from low income households, saving families up to £2,500 per child per year in total.
More people in employment in Scotland than the pre-recession high point, outperforming the UK on female employment and inactivity rates.
Higher exam passes up by a third since 2007, and we’re investing record amounts in schools to close the attainment gap. £120 million will go direct to schools this year alone.
We exceeded our world-leading target to reduce emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 – six years early.
1.3 million older and disabled people*benefit from free public transport through the National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme – now extended to help disabled veterans.
Target to build 30,000*affordable homes exceeded, with an investment of £1.7 billion.
Free tuition protected, saving students in Scotland up to £27,000 compared to the cost of studying in England.
To help protect jobs and businesses through the recession, we’ve slashed or abolished business rates for 100,000 premises – saving small businesses £1.2 billion to date.
78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Prescription charges abolished. In England, patients are forced to pay £8.40 per item.
Road Equivalent Tariff rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides, cutting fares by around 40%.
178,000 low income households helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund since it was established in 2013.
By keeping Scottish Water in public hands customers pay less for a better service – charges for the average household bill are £39 lower than in England and Wales.*
We’ve kept Council Tax down. Bills are lower in Scotland than in England – by between £300 and £400.
We’re leading the way on fair pay. Scotland has the highest proportion of employees in the UK paid at least the Living Wage.
16 and 17 year olds now have the right to vote in Scottish Parliament and local government elections.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Scotland, with one of the most progressive equal marriage laws in the world, has been rated the best country in Europe for LGBTI equality and human rights for the second year running.
We’re standing up for Scottish industry. We have secured a future for Scottish steel, the last remaining aluminium smelter at Lochaber, and Ferguson shipyard too.


You cant answer a thing, can you?

Third time, only because you kept hounding others when you had your party checklist handy.

You claimed free personal care as an SNP achievement. It was brought in under Labour.

Do you want to admit you lied or were you just deceived by the propaganda you were asked to forward on.

The first makes you a liar, the second makes you look stupid.

Sorry mate, but that's a tough choice.


The bits in bold.

Where in my post does it say it was "introduced" by the SNP? I'll let you into a wee secret MA, it doesn't. The achievement is continuing and improving on the services left by your lot, and all with a budget that's being reduced by the Tories.

I seem to recall the SLAB leader trying to introduce means testing on bus passes. How is Jolo doing these days?

You stay classy though.

[Slavers]

When people say our NHS is better run than the English NHS i think its a bad comparison. The population of England compared to Scotland mean it's easier to manage health care for just 5+million people In Scotland than it is to manage health care for 53+ million people in England?

I don't see that it's a fair comparison or that you can claim political points by saying 'well we manage the health care for our 5 million better than you do for your 53 million', Its petty IMO

[marinello59]

The bits in bold.

Where in my post does it say it was "introduced" by the SNP? I'll let you into a wee secret MA, it doesn't. The achievement is continuing and improving on the services left by your lot, and all with a budget that's being reduced by the Tories.

I seem to recall the SLAB leader trying to introduce means testing on bus passes. How is Jolo doing these days?

You stay classy though.



It's free personal care unless you enter a home. Then the savings and the house go. No cap. I think they call that a dementia tax down South.

[ronaldo7]

It's free personal care unless you enter a home. Then the savings and the house go. No cap. I think they call that a dementia tax down South.

Nobody said it wasn't, unless someone's lying of course.

If any other poster needs information on it, they can get it here.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Support-Social-Care/Support/Older-People/Free-Personal-Nursing-Care

[marinello59]

Nobody said it wasn't, unless someone's lying of course.

If any other poster needs information on it, they can get it here.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Support-Social-Care/Support/Older-People/Free-Personal-Nursing-Care

Just pointing out that once you enter a care home then the bills run in to £1000s. It's something I was unaware of and I'm guessing a lot of others know nothing of.

[ronaldo7]

Just pointing out that once you enter a care home then the bills run in to £1000s. It's something I was unaware of and I'm guessing a lot of others know nothing of.

It's why financial planning if you own a house is a must for some.:wink:

[lord bunberry]

Just pointing out that once you enter a care home then the bills run in to £1000s. It's something I was unaware of and I'm guessing a lot of others know nothing of.
I'm surprised you didn't know about that. For years I've heard stories of people transferring their house to their children to avoid potential costs of being in a home. Local authorities have been trying to clamp down on it for a long time now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

their was an article a few months back mentioning that the NHS in scotland was 93% efficient ...or something like that ?, and i can't for the life of me find the damn article :rolleyes: whatever it was, this country was the bestest anyway :greengrin so there

[ronaldo7]

their was an article a few months back mentioning that the NHS in scotland was 93% efficient ...or something like that ?, and i can't for the life of me find the damn article :rolleyes: whatever it was, this country was the bestest anyway :greengrin so there

I hope that figure is compared to Scotland, or you'll be in trouble.:greengrin

[marinello59]

I'm surprised you didn't know about that. For years I've heard stories of people transferring their house to their children to avoid potential costs of being in a home. Local authorities have been trying to clamp down on it for a long time now.

I knew there was a cost. I just didn't realise the extent of it.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I'm surprised you didn't know about that. For years I've heard stories of people transferring their house to their children to avoid potential costs of being in a home. Local authorities have been trying to clamp down on it for a long time now.

It's not as easy as just transferring your house though - that risks deliberate deprivation of assets.

[lord bunberry]

It's not as easy as just transferring your house though - that risks deliberate deprivation of assets.
:agree: I know that. That's why I mentioned local authorities trying to clamp down on it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I'm surprised you didn't know about that. For years I've heard stories of people transferring their house to their children to avoid potential costs of being in a home. Local authorities have been trying to clamp down on it for a long time now.


and i seriously hope something is done about that :agree: being on the right side of the law and brought up the proper way my sister and i lost out on many thousands because we done things the right(moral) way in regards to our mother going in to care, we were all aware for years of the 'dodges' that some others do, my sister was a supervisor for domiciliary care with the council and we knew all the procedures for owned homes/ good care homes, the money didn't matter a toss to us, the level of care for our mother did, so we managed to get her in to a new home that opened in broxburn(our mum was their first client) where the fees were £900/ WEEK, the deal was the council made up the difference on weekly fees with our mums pension entitlements etc taken into account, then after she died we sold the house within 3 months, we lost many thousands because my sister done the morally right thing and we accepted a lot less for the house so we could pay the council back all fees within 2 months of our mother passing away, our parents never had a debt in their entire lives and we weren't wanting them having any debt even after death, i can't even print what i think of those that plan in advance to dodge care fees :bitchy:



.... and relax

[cabbageandribs1875]

I hope that figure is compared to Scotland, or you'll be in trouble.:greengrin


oh it was, trust me.....i wouldn't bring it up otherwise :greengrin can't find the link in my indy2 bookmarks folder :( wales and england were 86% and 89%(or vice versa) :hmmm:

[lord bunberry]

and i seriously hope something is done about that :agree: being on the right side of the law and brought up the proper way my sister and i lost out on many thousands because we done things the right(moral) way in regards to our mother going in to care, we were all aware for years of the 'dodges' that some others do, my sister was a supervisor for domiciliary care with the council and we knew all the procedures for owned homes/ good care homes, the money didn't matter a toss to us, the level of care for her did, so we managed to get her in to a new home that opened in broxburn(our mum was their first client) where the fees were £900/ WEEK, the deal was the council made up the difference on weekly fees with our mums pension entitlements etc taken into account, then after she died we sold the house within 3 months, we lost many thousands because my sister done the morally right thing and we accepted a lot less for the house so we could pay the council back all fees within 2 months of our mother passing away, our parents never had a debt in their entire lives and we weren't wanting them having any debt even after death, i can't even print what i think of those that plan in advance to dodge care fees :bitchy:
I would hope that eventually people aren't put in the position of having to even think of dodging care fees. I'd hate to think everything I have worked for wasn't going to go to my daughter when I die. Thankfully it's not something I have to worry about for a while.

[Mibbes Aye]

The bits in bold.

Where in my post does it say it was "introduced" by the SNP? I'll let you into a wee secret MA, it doesn't. The achievement is continuing and improving on the services left by your lot, and all with a budget that's being reduced by the Tories.

I seem to recall the SLAB leader trying to introduce means testing on bus passes. How is Jolo doing these days?

You stay classy though.

All you needed to do was take your 'copy and paste',

78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge


and add this: "That was introduced under Labour, not the SNP"

Quick question - that would have been more honest, wouldn't it?

Appreciate it if you just give us all a 'Yes' or 'No' answer on that one.

Man up, I dare you.

But you already didn't. You just post stuff without any idea if it's accurate or not.

That's poor and I'm calling you out.

Your posts are bad and lazy in that they seem to parrot whatever the party line tweets. And you just recycle it on here. I don't think I've ever read anything you could claim as your own thoughts or words.

The claim on free personal care stinks. I can deal with differing opinions but I don't like lies.

And any time you want to post about A+E waiting times or delayed discharge figues, I'll be here.

You talked about extra money going to the NHS. By the SNP's own measures, things have gotten worse.

What have you done with those extra billions of our money?

Why have things got worse?

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-vows-oust-theresa-10601306


jeremy corbyn plans to oust theresa may 'within a matter of days'

the labour leader has revealed exclusively to the sunday mirror that he plans to use the queens speech as his first opportunity to topple the floundering PM


no no jeremy, you can't oust theresa may, a vote was held and she won, YOU lost, fair and square, and besides..the labour voters would simply not accept this, would they ? :confused: i mean, NO means NO jeremy :agree: just ask labour voters :dunno:

[ronaldo7]

All you needed to do was take your 'copy and paste',

78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge


and add this: "That was introduced under Labour, not the SNP"

Quick question - that would have been more honest, wouldn't it?

Appreciate it if you just give us all a 'Yes' or 'No' answer on that one.

Man up, I dare you.

But you already didn't. You just post stuff without any idea if it's accurate or not.

That's poor and I'm calling you out.

Your posts are bad and lazy in that they seem to parrot whatever the party line tweets. And you just recycle it on here. I don't think I've ever read anything you could claim as your own thoughts or words.

The claim on free personal care stinks. I can deal with differing opinions but I don't like lies.

And any time you want to post about A+E waiting times or delayed discharge figues, I'll be here.

You talked about extra money going to the NHS. By the SNP's own measures, things have gotten worse.

What have you done with those extra billions of our money?

Why have things got worse?

So, the post never at any time said all the policies were "Introduced" by the SNP did it? You just made that up didn't you. The achievements, and there are many, evolved over time in government.

I wonder who started the NHS or will I have to include a line in the achievements of more money and people, that it was the Labour party too.

The figures on free personal care are fact, not lies. You'll need to look closer to home for those.

I suppose that extra money going into the NHS could have gone back to Westminster though. That £1.4Billion. Who did that again?

And for what it's worth, whether you're lurking around the corner, "waiting for me", I'll still be posting here for a while. Thanks

[marinello59]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-vows-oust-theresa-10601306


jeremy corbyn plans to oust theresa may 'within a matter of days'

the labour leader has revealed exclusively to the sunday mirror that he plans to use the queens speech as his first opportunity to topple the floundering PM


no no jeremy, you can't oust theresa may, a vote was held and she won, YOU lost, fair and square, and besides..the labour voters would simply not accept this, would they ? :confused: i mean, NO means NO jeremy :agree: just ask labour voters :dunno:

Was there drink involved in this one. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Joke right wing panel on Andrew Marr this morning. Corbyn gets interviewed by Marr, but the panel ? Toby Young, right wing journo hack, long term anti Corbyn Guardian hack Polly Toynbee, and George ****ing Osborne!! Balance please.

JC still floating the idea in the Mirror that he can kill the queens speech and beat the numbers. Unlikely but worth going along with the pretence.

[hibsbollah]

Joke right wing panel on Andrew Marr this morning. Corbyn gets interviewed by Marr, but the panel ? Toby Young, right wing journo hack, long term anti Corbyn Guardian hack Polly Toynbee, and George ****ing Osborne!! Balance please.

JC still floating the idea in the Mirror that he can kill the queens speech and beat the numbers. Unlikely but worth going along with the pretence.

...and now Michael Fallon and Michael Heseltine! Astonishing. It's the Tory show.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Joke right wing panel on Andrew Marr this morning. Corbyn gets interviewed by Marr, but the panel ? Toby Young, right wing journo hack, long term anti Corbyn Guardian hack Polly Toynbee, and George ****ing Osborne!! Balance please.

JC still floating the idea in the Mirror that he can kill the queens speech and beat the numbers. Unlikely but worth going along with the pretence.

Polly Toynbee - right wing? Come on...

[Colr]

Joke right wing panel on Andrew Marr this morning. Corbyn gets interviewed by Marr, but the panel ? Toby Young, right wing journo hack, long term anti Corbyn Guardian hack Polly Toynbee, and George ****ing Osborne!! Balance please.

JC still floating the idea in the Mirror that he can kill the queens speech and beat the numbers. Unlikely but worth going along with the pretence.
To y Young came across as another right wing bully. Hesteltine was good.

[hibsbollah]

Polly Toynbee - right wing? Come on...

I never said she's 'right wing'. She's been a brutal critic of Corbyn for the last two years.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-vows-oust-theresa-10601306


jeremy corbyn plans to oust theresa may 'within a matter of days'

the labour leader has revealed exclusively to the sunday mirror that he plans to use the queens speech as his first opportunity to topple the floundering PM


no no jeremy, you can't oust theresa may, a vote was held and she won, YOU lost, fair and square, and besides..the labour voters would simply not accept this, would they ? :confused: i mean, NO means NO jeremy :agree: just ask labour voters :dunno:

He might be able to topple May, but he can't become PM.

[Pretty Boy]

Joke right wing panel on Andrew Marr this morning. Corbyn gets interviewed by Marr, but the panel ? Toby Young, right wing journo hack, long term anti Corbyn Guardian hack Polly Toynbee, and George ****ing Osborne!! Balance please.

JC still floating the idea in the Mirror that he can kill the queens speech and beat the numbers. Unlikely but worth going along with the pretence.

Osbourne has gone slightly up in my estimation, albeit from a rock bottom starting point, with his pretty savage attacks on May since taking up his role at the Standard.

[Hibbyradge]

Osbourne has gone slightly up in my estimation, albeit from a rock bottom starting point, with his pretty savage attacks on May since taking up his role at the Standard.

It's tempting to think like that, but his attacks are more from a schadenfreude angle than a political one.

Remember, he wanted to savagely cut Tax Credits.

[Pretty Boy]

It's tempting to think like that, but his attacks are more from a schadenfreude angle than a political one.

Remember, he wanted to savagely cut Tax Credits.

By up in my estimation I did mean he had gone from 'morally repugnant' to 'occasionally mildly amusing shameless opportunist'.

[Hibbyradge]

By up in my estimation I did mean he had gone from 'morally repugnant' to 'occasionally mildly amusing shameless opportunist'.

:faf:

[Mibbes Aye]

So, the post never at any time said all the policies were "Introduced" by the SNP did it? You just made that up didn't you. The achievements, and there are many, evolved over time in government.

I wonder who started the NHS or will I have to include a line in the achievements of more money and people, that it was the Labour party too.

The figures on free personal care are fact, not lies. You'll need to look closer to home for those.

I suppose that extra money going into the NHS could have gone back to Westminster though. That £1.4Billion. Who did that again?

And for what it's worth, whether you're lurking around the corner, "waiting for me", I'll still be posting here for a while. Thanks

Lets make it simple.

You can't claim free personal care as an achievement. It was brought in by Labour. And the number of people in receipt is nothing to do with the SNP.

And when you've decided just how much extra money you think is being spent on the NHS, perhaps you can tell us why it's made things worse. Because the SNP is missing its own targets and wasting our money doing so.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Lets make it simple.

You can't claim free personal care as an achievement. It was brought in by Labour. And the number of people in receipt is nothing to do with the SNP.

And when you've decided just how much extra money you think is being spent on the NHS, perhaps you can tell us why it's made things worse. Because the SNP is missing its own targets and wasting our money doing so.

Pretty much every govt can claim record investment in the NHS, just by going with inflation. Its a piece of spin.

[marinello59]

Pretty much every govt can claim record investment in the NHS, just by going with inflation. Its a piece of spin.

:top marks
It's not how much is spent, it's how it's spent. There was plenty spent on the NHS 24 computer system, millions of it wasted.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:top marks
It's npt how much is spent, it's how it's spent. There was plenty spent on the NHS 24 computer system, millions of it wasted.

There are also millions being spent keeping local hospitals open that aremt that good. But because the SNP campaigned on a 'keep local hospitals open' ticket, they arent being closed, or downgraded which they should be.

[ronaldo7]

Scottish NHS.

More doctors per head of population, although there are difficulties filling vacancies in rural areas. 100 new GP training posts created each year.

More nurses, with band 5's the best paid in the UK.

Over 12,000 more people employed in our NHS since 2007.

Patient satisfaction showing 90% of people rating their care as good or excellent.

Our core A&E has the best performance in the Uk for the last 25 months.

New elective care centres planned.

If all of these indicators were on the slide, as they are in other parts of the UK, I could understand why people would be up in arms.

The pressures on the NHS are enormous, however with all of the above and more, it beggars belief that with a shrinking WM budget we're continuing to do as well as we are.

Alternatively we could just shut hospitals though.:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Osbourne has gone slightly up in my estimation, albeit from a rock bottom starting point, with his pretty savage attacks on May since taking up his role at the Standard.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/george-osbornes-revenge-best-served-ice-cold?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is spot on :faf:

[Betty Boop]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/george-osbornes-revenge-best-served-ice-cold?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is spot on :faf:

Maybot and the Maybotniks ! :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Scottish NHS.

More doctors per head of population, although there are difficulties filling vacancies in rural areas. 100 new GP training posts created each year.

More nurses, with band 5's the best paid in the UK.

Over 12,000 more people employed in our NHS since 2007.

Patient satisfaction showing 90% of people rating their care as good or excellent.

Our core A&E has the best performance in the Uk for the last 25 months.

New elective care centres planned.

If all of these indicators were on the slide, as they are in other parts of the UK, I could understand why people would be up in arms.

The pressures on the NHS are enormous, however with all of the above and more, it beggars belief that with a shrinking WM budget we're continuing to do as well as we are.

Alternatively we could just shut hospitals though.:rolleyes:

There is reams of data that shows patient outcomes are significantly better when they are treated at large, regional centres of excellence versus local hospitals. Everybody knows it. Yet people get all dewy-eyed about remvoing 'their' local hospital, amd unfortunately too many politicians prey on that sentiment.

Anyway, i actually dont think the SNP have done a bad job on the NHS to date, but i do think their reluctance to deal with the fundamental issues will start to show, amd already is.

I actually quite admired May for grasping the nettle on social care (although at a bad time, in a bad way) - its a debate we all need to have - what we expect from the NHS and what we are prepared to pay for - unfortunately politicians want to spend too muxh time scoring points.

It should, imo, be lifted out of partisan politics - the kind of thing a non-partisan second chamber might be useful for, because holyroods committees are pretty rubbish.

[hibsbollah]

Survation now has Labour 6 points ahead, 8 point upward swing since June 8th.
Incredible.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-now-has-a-six-point-lead-over-the-tories-new-poll-finds/ar-BBCssDl?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

[ronaldo7]

There is reams of data that shows patient outcomes are significantly better when they are treated at large, regional centres of excellence versus local hospitals. Everybody knows it. Yet people get all dewy-eyed about remvoing 'their' local hospital, amd unfortunately too many politicians prey on that sentiment.

Anyway, i actually dont think the SNP have done a bad job on the NHS to date, but i do think their reluctance to deal with the fundamental issues will start to show, amd already is.

I actually quite admired May for grasping the nettle on social care (although at a bad time, in a bad way) - its a debate we all need to have - what we expect from the NHS and what we are prepared to pay for - unfortunately politicians want to spend too muxh time scoring points.

It should, imo, be lifted out of partisan politics - the kind of thing a non-partisan second chamber might be useful for, because holyroods committees are pretty rubbish.

I don't think you'd get much dissent to that on the streets tbh. The parties on the other hand.

[Mibbes Aye]

Scottish NHS.

More doctors per head of population, although there are difficulties filling vacancies in rural areas. 100 new GP training posts created each year.

More nurses, with band 5's the best paid in the UK.

Over 12,000 more people employed in our NHS since 2007.

Patient satisfaction showing 90% of people rating their care as good or excellent.

Our core A&E has the best performance in the Uk for the last 25 months.

New elective care centres planned.

If all of these indicators were on the slide, as they are in other parts of the UK, I could understand why people would be up in arms.

The pressures on the NHS are enormous, however with all of the above and more, it beggars belief that with a shrinking WM budget we're continuing to do as well as we are.

Alternatively we could just shut hospitals though.:rolleyes:

They're not indicators, they are meaningless. You're at it again :greengrin.

Why bother saying we have more GPs than England when you acknowledge that actually we don't have enough. During the SNP's time GP numbers have stayed the same but there are 20% more over-65s as patients. And a third of GPs are over 50. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see why that may be a problem.

It's no wonder there are so many practices closing their lists or having to be taken under direct NHS control. Sturgeon has to accept responsibility for a failing system - she was health minister and then First Minister and things have got worse on her watch. There are less practices with bigger lists.

You talk about the NHS employing extra staff as a good thing. What evidence do you have that's made any positive difference?

Because funnily enough, the measures your SNP government uses show things are getting worse.

They don't talk about extra staff being a positive indicator, and in fairness to them they shouldn't. That would be inane.

They talk about A+E waiting times and delayed discharge as being meaningful indicators. That's what they say they should be judged on.

And that's what they are failing on.

[Just Alf]

If only the SNP would change their A&E targets back to match the other 3 UK countries.... Then Scotland would be hitting target! .... sorted.

[ronaldo7]

They're not indicators, they are meaningless. You're at it again :greengrin.

Why bother saying we have more GPs than England when you acknowledge that actually we don't have enough. During the SNP's time GP numbers have stayed the same but there are 20% more over-65s as patients. And a third of GPs are over 50. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see why that may be a problem.

It's no wonder there are so many practices closing their lists or having to be taken under direct NHS control. Sturgeon has to accept responsibility for a failing system - she was health minister and then First Minister and things have got worse on her watch. There are less practices with bigger lists.

You talk about the NHS employing extra staff as a good thing. What evidence do you have that's made any positive difference?

Because funnily enough, the measures your SNP government uses show things are getting worse.

They don't talk about extra staff being a positive indicator, and in fairness to them they shouldn't. That would be inane.

They talk about A+E waiting times and delayed discharge as being meaningful indicators. That's what they say they should be judged on.

And that's what they are failing on.

This has got to be one of your best.:faf:

You're right, we don't have enough GP's, that's why we're training more. If we hadn't, you'd have an argument, as it stands, more money, more people, better hospitals, and new elective centres in the NHS, in a country where more people are needing health care, and the age of the population increases.

Maybe we should just close hospitals and reduce staff. Less staff are sure to get those waiting lists down.:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's infuriating to see Blairite pundits who have spent the past year traducing Corbyn, publicly sticking their beaks in and saying what Labour should do next. If they had a sliver of integrity they would admit they have been proved dead wrong and acknowledge it's time for them to shut their gobs.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's infuriating to see Blairite pundits who have spent the past year traducing Corbyn, publicly sticking their beaks in and saying what Labour should do next. If they had a sliver of integrity they would admit they have been proved dead wrong and acknowledge it's time for them to shut their gobs.

I understand your concerns, but it needs to be remembered that Blair and the blairites did more to deliber labour values to people than corbyn, so far, has managed to do.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I understand your concerns, but it needs to be remembered that Blair and the blairites did more to deliber labour values to people than corbyn, so far, has managed to do.

Pundits on the Blairite right, like Toynbee, war criminal Campbell, Lance Price, Mandelson, that **** McTernan, etc have spent the past year in cahoots with the right wing press, undermining Corbyn. They fully bought into the rhetoric of his 'unelectable' policies and how Labour was about to be wiped out as a major party. They fomented the efforts to depose him. Day after day they wrote and spoke about the end of the world under Corbyn. Now, with a 40 per cent vote share and more MPs, they turn up again like nothing has happened; like they didn't say any of those things and did nothing wrong. They have no shame and no credibility.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Pundits on the Blairite right, like Toynbee, war criminal Campbell, Lance Price, Mandelson, that **** McTernan, etc have spent the past year in cahoots with the right wing press, undermining Corbyn. They fully bought into the rhetoric of his 'unelectable' policies and how Labour was about to be wiped out as a major party. They fomented the efforts to depose him. Day after day they wrote and spoke about the end of the world under Corbyn. Now, with a 40 per cent vote share and more MPs, they turn up again like nothing has happened; like they didn't say any of those things and did nothing wrong. They have no shame and no credibility.

I get that, and i agree some on your list are how you describe.

But lots of them also know what they are talking about, amd for all self congratulation going on, corbyn wad unable to un seat a weak PM, at a time of economic difficulty, who had just delivered the worst manifesto / campaing in modern british political history. They still won 60 odd seats more than corbyn.

Maybe you guys should accept that campbell et al do have something to offer, anf listen to them and start healing the factions that so often hamper the left?

[Hibernia&Alba]

I get that, and i agree some on your list are how you describe.

But lots of them also know what they are talking about, amd for all self congratulation going on, corbyn wad unable to un seat a weak PM, at a time of economic difficulty, who had just delivered the worst manifesto / campaing in modern british political history. They still won 60 odd seats more than corbyn.

Maybe you guys should accept that campbell et al do have something to offer, anf listen to them and start healing the factions that so often hamper the left?

But it's the right wing of the party that sought to destroy Corbyn from day one, despite his huge democratic mandate as party leader. The factionalism is a consequence of their decision to oppose the elected leader come what may. Had they used their time better, by refraining from constant attacks and doomsday predictions, Labour could have done far better. Corbyn won 40 per cent of vote despite hostility from almost all sections of the media (including New Labour) in addition to most of his own backbenchers. There was hardly anybody getting a public platform who was speaking up for the manifesto, yet it proved enormously popular. They might have won sixty more seats, but the Tories only won two per cent more of the vote, despite having everything in their favour, including a twenty point lead when the election was called. Had the so called progressive sections of the media and the PLP behaved better, Labour could have won.

It is now incumbent upon the 'unelectable' brigade to get behind the programme, surely. They can't continue with their wrecking strategy of an elected leader.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But it's the right wing of the party that sought to destroy Corbyn from day one, despite his huge democratic mandate as party leader. The factionalism is a consequence of their decision to oppose the elected leader come what may. Had they used their time better, by refraining from constant attacks and doomsday predictions, Labour could have done far better. Corbyn won 40 per cent of vote despite hostility from almost all sections of the media (including New Labour) in addition to most of his own backbenchers. There was hardly anybody getting a public platform who was speaking up for the manifesto, yet it proved enormously popular. They might have won sixty more seats, but the Tories only won two per cent more of the vote, despite having everything in their favour, including a twenty point lead when the election was called. Had the so called progressive sections of the media and the PLP behaved better, Labour could have won.

It is now incumbent upon the 'unelectable' brigade to get behind the programme, surely. They can't continue with their wrecking strategy of an elected leader.

Possibly true yeah, but lets not pretend corbyn and his pals didnt also make a career or sniping amd criticising the most successful labour electoral machine ever.

If there is another election, labour need to win a lot of seats they didnt win this time. The way to do that maybe to make a compromise with the centrists?

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn

[overdrive]

She looked absent minded, as if she wasn't really there. She reminded me a bit of my wife's grandmother who suffers from Alzheimers (I'm not saying that's what is wrong with her) with the sort of vacant look on her face.

I see Diane Abbott has now said her medical condition is Type 2 Diabetes. That would fit in with my absent mindedness observation as short-term memory loss is a symptom of Type 2 Diabetes.

[Betty Boop]

Tim Farron resigns as leader of Lib Dems.

[Colr]

Tim Farron resigns as leader of Lib Dems.

Not quite sure that I understand his statement. Is he saying he can't be a Christian and stand up for gay rights?

[Betty Boop]

Not quite sure that I understand his statement. Is he saying he can't be a Christian and stand up for gay rights?
More or less.

[Just Alf]

More or less.

Quite unchristian of him then....

[Colr]

Quite unchristian of him then....

Not to say illiberal!

[Just Alf]

Not to say illiberal!

Indeed! :agree:

[overdrive]

Surely if he considers his religious beliefs to be at odds with the values of the Lib Dems then he can't really be a Lib Dem never mind its Leader.

[High-On-Hibs]

Embarrassing


https://www.facebook.com/ray.forbes.69/videos/1744324645583689/

[lord bunberry]

Apparently Jezza is going to be appearing at Glastonbury.

[heretoday]

I see Diane Abbott has now said her medical condition is Type 2 Diabetes. That would fit in with my absent mindedness observation as short-term memory loss is a symptom of Type 2 Diabetes.

May is type 1 diabetic which doesn't get mentioned often.

[ronaldo7]

Embarrassing


https://www.facebook.com/ray.forbes.69/videos/1744324645583689/

Nice to see Scottish Labour have put up their best.:greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

May is type 1 diabetic which doesn't get mentioned often.

Unfortunately that doesnt explain her own dismal campaign!

Its a good point though.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Embarrassing


https://www.facebook.com/ray.forbes.69/videos/1744324645583689/

Horrific. Elected to Westminster, appointed Shadow Secretary of State and hasn't 'had time' to form her opinion on the role devolved administrations should have in the Brexit negotiations.

[lucky]

Terrible interview but it's clear that the devolved administrations won't be part of negotiations. But she'll learn form this and get better at doing the media

[snooky]

Horrific. Elected to Westminster, appointed Shadow Secretary of State and hasn't 'had time' to form her opinion on the role devolved administrations should have in the Brexit negotiations.

They'll be dancing in the streets of Raith after that interview. :ostrich:

[Betty Boop]

Inspiring! :flag:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSEmuPMwvMQ

[hibsbollah]

Inspiring! :flag:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSEmuPMwvMQ

Build bridges not walls:aok:

[Pete]

Inspiring! :flag:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSEmuPMwvMQ

This is happening:thumbsup:

[Betty Boop]

This is happening:thumbsup:


Build bridges not walls:aok:

Exciting stuff ! :greengrin

[lucky]

Corbyn is growing from strength to strength as he takes politics to the many not the few. If he can topple May before Christmas there could be a Labour landslide. They reckon he spoke to 200k live at Glastonbury. So to answer OPs original question I think the Labour parties future is secure. Anyone wanting to hear Jeremy address a huge crowd should get down to Durham on the 08/07/17 for the Miners gala day.

[ronaldo7]

Labour MP's up to their old tricks again. Abstaining on their own amendment.

Trouble at mill tonight with in fighting again, and front bench sackings. Allegedly:greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

Corbyn is growing from strength to strength as he takes politics to the many not the few. If he can topple May before Christmas there could be a Labour landslide. They reckon he spoke to 200k live at Glastonbury. So to answer OPs original question I think the Labour parties future is secure. Anyone wanting to hear Jeremy address a huge crowd should get down to Durham on the 08/07/17 for the Miners gala day.

Corbyn drives me nuts. He talks so much sense but then consistently makes so many bad decisions. Off he goes again tonight sacking front benchers for voting for an amendment to stay in the single market. I suspect many of the young voters who turned up to vote Labour a few weeks did so in the hope that it would be a vote for a softer brexit and remaining in the single market.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn drives me nuts. He talks so much sense but then consistently makes so many bad decisions. Off he goes again tonight sacking front benchers for voting for an amendment to stay in the single market. I suspect many of the young voters who turned up to vote Labour a few weeks did so in the hope that it would be a vote for a softer brexit and remaining in the single market.

Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The referendum was clear. If he is seen to want to create an escape plan for a 'referendum retake' he risks alienating the voters in ex industrial areas who like his policies but who also voted 60%+ for brexit. He's better doing and saying very little on the subject. It's a nightmare for any leader.

[Colr]

Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The referendum was clear. If he is seen to want to create an escape plan for a 'referendum retake' he risks alienating the voters in ex industrial areas who like his policies but who also voted 60%+ for brexit. He's better doing and saying very little on the subject. It's a nightmare for any leader.

The referendum was bloody not clear!

[hibsbollah]

The referendum was bloody not clear!

It wasn't a draw, was it? :greengrin

Im very pro EU, I'm just pointing out the impossibility of everyone's position that the result has caused.

[pacoluna]

Corbyn drives me nuts. He talks so much sense but then consistently makes so many bad decisions. Off he goes again tonight sacking front benchers for voting for an amendment to stay in the single market. I suspect many of the young voters who turned up to vote Labour a few weeks did so in the hope that it would be a vote for a softer brexit and remaining in the single market.

Kezia dugdale tells us that Scottish Labour absolutely want to remain in the single market...

All but one Scottish Labour mps don't vote for amendment to remain in the single market...

How does that add up?

[Glory Lurker]

Kezia dugdale tells us that Scottish Labour absolutely want to remain in the single market...

All but one Scottish Labour mps don't vote for amendment to remain in the single market...

How does that add up?

In fairness to them, they'll still be exhausted at all the efforts they've been making to put Mundell and the other North British Tories on the spot about the DUP deal (the Lib Dems will be similarly exhausted). That's what oppositions do.

[lucky]

Tonight was an attempt by the Labour right to undermine Corbyn. But I believe it's part if of a wider plot by progress to undermine him. There will be stories in this weekends press about what Dugdale is trying to force through in Scotland. For me some of Progress/Blairites would rather have May as PM than Corbyn.

[lucky]

Kezia dugdale tells us that Scottish Labour absolutely want to remain in the single market...

All but one Scottish Labour mps don't vote for amendment to remain in the single market...

How does that add up?

That's her position not the SLP. The UK voted to leave( wrong in my book) we must respect that decision. Time the Nationalist respected both referendums

[pacoluna]

That's her position not the SLP. The UK voted to leave( wrong in my book) we must respect that decision. Time the Nationalist respected both referendums

What's this got to do with nationalists? It's every unionist in Scotland's diversion tactic. My point once again is kezia and Scottish Labour are nothing but a branch.

There is a thousand different pathways we can take with leaving the EU, to dismiss the single market etc and not debate about it is ridiculous. May called a snap election to enable her approach for a hard brexit and she lost her majority.

As a nationalist I respect that Scotland as a nation overwhelmingly voted to remain.

[500miles]

I voted remain, but even I can see that this was nothing more than a plot to undermine Corbyn. It had no chance of passing, and would've driven working class Labour voters back to UKIP.

Quite frankly,I feel like Ummuna is more comfortable with the status quo than Labour being in power.

[lucky]

What's this got to do with nationalists? It's every unionist in Scotland's diversion tactic. My point once again is kezia and Scottish Labour are nothing but a branch.

There is a thousand different pathways we can take with leaving the EU, to dismiss the single market etc and not debate about it is ridiculous. May called a snap election to enable her approach for a hard brexit and she lost her majority.

As a nationalist I respect that Scotland as a nation overwhelmingly voted to remain.

And Scotland also voted to remain in the U.K.

[pacoluna]

And Scotland also voted to remain in the U.K.
surely that cant be the default answer to every disaster that the uk government takes us though "scotland voted to remain part of the UK" .
So effing what! does that mean we cant have an influence on the process in particular with BREXIT considering we didn't want to leave it! just sit back and let it play out :grr: .

[Geo_1875]

And Scotland also voted to remain in the U.K.

Because we were told that the only way we could remain in the EU was by remaining in the UK. How's that working out?

[Betty Boop]

Corbyn drives me nuts. He talks so much sense but then consistently makes so many bad decisions. Off he goes again tonight sacking front benchers for voting for an amendment to stay in the single market. I suspect many of the young voters who turned up to vote Labour a few weeks did so in the hope that it would be a vote for a softer brexit and remaining in the single market.
What do you expect him to do ? They went against the whip therefore they're sacked, that's how it goes.

[pacoluna]

What do you expect him to do ? They went against the whip therefore they're sacked, that's how it goes.
:rolleyes: the same people that call the The SNP authoritarian.

[CropleyWasGod]

:rolleyes: the same people that call the The SNP authoritarian.

I'm no lover of the Labour Party, but if a member is told (as part of their job) to vote a certain way, they have to face the consequences. It's the same in any party. If they prefer to vote with their consciences, they would be better off as an independent member.

[pacoluna]

I'm no lover of the Labour Party, but if a member is told (as part of their job) to vote a certain way, they have to face the consequences. It's the same in any party. If they prefer to vote with their consciences, they would be better off as an independent member.
This is my point, Kezia dugdale and scottish labour have continuously told us they will fight to remain in the single market. How can they lie to the electorate in scotland knowing fine well that they are nothing more than a branch and will have no influence in corbyns party. Its the exact same with ruth davidson and her " we will defy may" comments. It a whole lot of horse ****. They do their utmost to protect the union when in scotgov but to sweat fa to protect scotland when in WM. Its a disgrace.

[marinello59]

:rolleyes: the same people that call the The SNP authoritarian.

SNP members are not even allowed to be publically critical of each other, let alone vote against party policy.

[pacoluna]

SNP members are not even allowed to be publically critical of each other, let alone vote against party policy.
yes 59 deflect away.

[marinello59]

yes 59 deflect away.

That's not deflection, it's just pointing out that every single party has its rules. Thats the way it works.

[pacoluna]

That's not deflection, it's just pointing out that every single party has its rules. Thats the way it works.
so you have nothing to say about kezia and scottish labour telling the scottish electorate they absolutely believe in remaining in the single market?

[marinello59]

so you have nothing to say about kezia and scottish labour telling the scottish electorate they absolutely believe in remaining in the single market?

To be honest Labour Party policy has been so muddled on this it's been hard keep up. What did it say in the Labour manifesto?

[pacoluna]

To be honest Labour Party policy has been so muddled on this it's been hard keep up. What did it say in the Labour manifesto?



Scrap Tory Brexit White Paper and place an emphasis on retaining the benefits of single market access.


Yet as said before only one scottish labour MP backed amendment regarding single market, and we know what has happened to the front benchers of labour who backed the amendment.

[marinello59]

Scrap Tory Brexit White Paper and place an emphasis on retaining the benefits of single market access.

.

That's rather different from demanding we retain single market membership which we can't actually do and is pretty much in line with what Corbyn has been saying all along. I don't like it but I can see why he takes that line. Brexit is happening, all we can do now is hope for the best deal.
What happens afterwards in Scotland regarding a referundum is a separate issue of course.

[pacoluna]

That's rather different from demanding we retain single market membership which we can't actually do and is pretty much in line with what Corbyn has been saying all along. I don't like it but I can see why he takes that line. Brexit is happening, all we can do now is hope for the best deal.
What happens afterwards in Scotland regarding a referundum is a separate issue of course.
Well why put it in her manifesto if she knows placing an emphasis on on remaining in the single market is undeliverable?

[marinello59]

Well why put it in her manifesto if she knows placing an emphasis on on remaining in the single market is undeliverable?

That's not what the manifesto said according to you. It said to place an emphasis on retaining the benefits of the single market which may be achievable.

[pacoluna]

That's not what the manifesto said according to you. It said to place an emphasis on retaining the benefits of the single market which may be achievable.
which they haven't :confused: what emphasis have they placed on the benefits of retaining access to the single market?? its evident that most people who voted labour in scotland really cant answer this.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's rather different from demanding we retain single market membership which we can't actually do and is pretty much in line with what Corbyn has been saying all along. I don't like it but I can see why he takes that line. Brexit is happening, all we can do now is hope for the best deal.
What happens afterwards in Scotland regarding a referundum is a separate issue of course.

Who can't? Scotland or the UK. The former is probably impossible but we'll never know as no ****er will actually ask. The latter is definitely possible, like Norway or Switzerland. And is exactly what we should be doing as damage limitation.

Sadly, Corbyn, like May, is a Brexiteer in Remain clothing. :rolleyes: Though admittedly for rather different reasons.

[Glory Lurker]

Sadly, Corbyn, like May, is a Brexiteer in Remain clothing. :rolleyes: Though admittedly for rather different reasons.

:agree: It's a bosses Europe, don't you know? Imposing all these improved working conditions on us, er.... and what have better health and safety standards ever done for, um....... Sure, they've helped the environment, but really only the bourgeois have the luxury of having so little to worry about that they have mind space to care about flowers and stuff...

A much more likeable rocket than that May woman, but fully-fuelled on the launch pad all the same.

[ronaldo7]

This is my point, Kezia dugdale and scottish labour have continuously told us they will fight to remain in the single market. How can they lie to the electorate in scotland knowing fine well that they are nothing more than a branch and will have no influence in corbyns party. Its the exact same with ruth davidson and her " we will defy may" comments. It a whole lot of horse ****. They do their utmost to protect the union when in scotgov but to sweat fa to protect scotland when in WM. Its a disgrace.

To be fair to Kezia, she's had more postions on Brexit than most politicians, so she's bound to chime with the Tories at some time.

The point you make is a fair one, and the Labour party have been split once again on the subject Kezia said she'd support the Scottish Government on. Either her MP's have gone against her wishes or they've not.

You can't have Ian Murray voting one way, and the other six Labour MP's voting the other, and say you're supporting access to the single market. It's just not on.

The feeble ferteen on the other hand will always do what they're told by Theresa.

[Colr]

Sadly, Corbyn, like May, is a Brexiteer in Remain clothing. :rolleyes: Though admittedly for rather different reasons.

My local MP was one of the ones sacked and she campaigned stongly from a remain/softest possible brexit stance and increased her vote significantly. London MPs would be daft not to do this. She's actually one of the better Labour MPs (although I didn't vote for her myself).

Labour have in no way squared of their Brexit position but are content to be opportunistic by allowing the Tories to do the public infighting whilst Labour sits back.

They would have similar issues, though, and can't square the fact that it is very pro-imigrant whilst one of the main reasons their core voters voted leave was because of the threat from immigrants (except in London).

Corbyn, I think, is only interetsed in alliances with other socialists and Europe is not left wind enough for him so are aligned with the "enemy".

[ronaldo7]

Labour in Wales (the government) have decided to increase tuition fees for students to £9,295pa.

This after saying in their manifesto, they'd abolish them. That'll be Labour austerity then.:rolleyes:

https://t.co/oxw8F9NmYI

[Hibbyradge]

Labour in Wales (the government) have decided to increase tuition fees for students to £9,295pa.

This after saying in their manifesto, they'd abolish them. That'll be Labour austerity then.:rolleyes:

https://t.co/oxw8F9NmYI

The new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies cogently argues the case that tuition fees should not be scrapped, but that maintenance grants should be restored, that the interest on student loans should be drastically reduced and that more cash should be pumped into early education - all measures that will reduce inequality in educational opportunities between the haves and the have-nots!

Maybe the Labour Party can rethink their policies on university education before the next General Election!

"Students from the poorest backgrounds are leaving university with the most debt thanks to the Tories decision to scrap maintenance grants, a new IFS report reveals today. The least well off students will graduate owing more than £57,000 to the Government in tuition fees and loans.

The research claims the controversial changes to tuition fees in 2012 actually made the poorest graduates better off to the tune of around £1,500. But George Osborne’s decision in 2015 to replace the maintenance grant with a loan has helped wipe away that benefit, and most students will now be paying off their debts into their 50s.

But the IFS has some warning words for Labour too, suggesting its focus on abolition tuition fees altogether (at £11bn the biggest ticket item in its manifesto) was misguided. It says the main beneficiaries from reducing fees “would be high-earning graduates, as they are the ones making the highest repayments under the current system”. The real issue is the jacking up of interest rates to 6%, as well as the ditching of maintenance grants, the think tank says. Coincidentally, it’s 10 years to the day since tuition fees were introduced.

Some in Labour argued before the manifesto that restoring grants and slashing interest rates, as well pumping the cash into early years education, would help the poorest much more than a middle class subsidy like abolishing fees. TUC research shows among young people who voted Labour, the NHS was more important than abolition of fees. But is it too late for the party to change tack?"

[Colr]

The free fees in Scotland are achieved by stripping the FE sector. Not a great help to social mobility especially given the much publicised failings of the Scottish school system.

[ronaldo7]

The new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies cogently argues the case that tuition fees should not be scrapped, but that maintenance grants should be restored, that the interest on student loans should be drastically reduced and that more cash should be pumped into early education - all measures that will reduce inequality in educational opportunities between the haves and the have-nots!

Maybe the Labour Party can rethink their policies on university education before the next General Election!

"Students from the poorest backgrounds are leaving university with the most debt thanks to the Tories decision to scrap maintenance grants, a new IFS report reveals today. The least well off students will graduate owing more than £57,000 to the Government in tuition fees and loans.

The research claims the controversial changes to tuition fees in 2012 actually made the poorest graduates better off to the tune of around £1,500. But George Osborne’s decision in 2015 to replace the maintenance grant with a loan has helped wipe away that benefit, and most students will now be paying off their debts into their 50s.

But the IFS has some warning words for Labour too, suggesting its focus on abolition tuition fees altogether (at £11bn the biggest ticket item in its manifesto) was misguided. It says the main beneficiaries from reducing fees “would be high-earning graduates, as they are the ones making the highest repayments under the current system”. The real issue is the jacking up of interest rates to 6%, as well as the ditching of maintenance grants, the think tank says. Coincidentally, it’s 10 years to the day since tuition fees were introduced.

Some in Labour argued before the manifesto that restoring grants and slashing interest rates, as well pumping the cash into early years education, would help the poorest much more than a middle class subsidy like abolishing fees. TUC research shows among young people who voted Labour, the NHS was more important than abolition of fees. But is it too late for the party to change tack?"

That's my point. Maybe they could have worked up a strategy prior to putting it into their manifesto, and then, when they lose the election, they increase the fees.

It's just not cricket old man.:greengrin

[pacoluna]

Laird using her Qs to attack the SNP in scottish questions at WM instead of attacking Mundell. They are an absolute shambles... will they never learn.

"labour voters probably now googling to find out who laird actually is"

[High-On-Hibs]

Laird using her Qs to attack the SNP in scottish questions at WM instead of attacking Mundell. They are an absolute shambles... will they never learn.

"labour voters probably now googling to find out who laird actually is"

They all are. Every unionist MP sent back from Scotland to Westminster is using all their time and questions to stick the knife into the SNP. For unionists, then don't seem to be too concerned about the wider issues impacting the whole of the UK.

[ronaldo7]

Interesting piece here in the Scotsman regarding the tactics used by Labour during the recent GE.

https://t.co/paKFFw78ly

"Scottish Labour’s campaign strategy ‘tacitly’ helped the Conservatives increase their vote in Scotland at the general election, a report by a left-wing pressure group has found. A paper by the Campaign for Socialism (CFS) said Scottish Labour strategists were “stuck in a Better Together mindset” and did not effectively challenge the Conservatives’ record at Westminster ahead of the snap election on June 6. The report by former MSP Lesley Brennan argued that by focusing attacks on the SNP, the Tories increased their vote by 5,500 on average across constituencies north of the border - enough for them to win 13 seats, their highest total since 1983".

[marinello59]

Interesting piece here in the Scotsman regarding the tactics used by Labour during the recent GE.

https://t.co/paKFFw78ly

"Scottish Labour’s campaign strategy ‘tacitly’ helped the Conservatives increase their vote in Scotland at the general election, a report by a left-wing pressure group has found. A paper by the Campaign for Socialism (CFS) said Scottish Labour strategists were “stuck in a Better Together mindset” and did not effectively challenge the Conservatives’ record at Westminster ahead of the snap election on June 6. The report by former MSP Lesley Brennan argued that by focusing attacks on the SNP, the Tories increased their vote by 5,500 on average across constituencies north of the border - enough for them to win 13 seats, their highest total since 1983".

So it's still Labours fault that the SNP lost so many voters to the Tories? These 'interesting' articles must be a real comfort to the faithful. :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

So it's still Labours fault that the SNP lost so many voters to the Tories? These 'interesting' articles must be a real comfort to the faithful. :greengrin
I think what it's saying is that with a better campaign Labour could have picked up more of the lost SNP votes.

[marinello59]

I think what it's saying is that with a better campaign Labour could have picked up more of the lost SNP votes.

That's fair comment. The SNP really need to address just why they lost voters to the Tories though rather than taking comfort in Labour's failings.

[ronaldo7]

So it's still Labours fault that the SNP lost so many voters to the Tories? These 'interesting' articles must be a real comfort to the faithful. :greengrin


That's fair comment. The SNP really need to address just why they lost voters to the Tories though rather than taking comfort in Labour's failings.

Can we not just focus on the facts. :rolleyes: You seem to want everything to be about the SNP these days.:wink: This is about what Labour did, on a Labour thread. :aok:

I'm sure the SNP will have a root and branch investigation into what went wrong with their election campaign.

[marinello59]

Can we not just focus on the facts. :rolleyes: You seem to want everything to be about the SNP these days.:wink: This is about what Labour did, on a Labour thread. :aok:

I'm sure the SNP will have a root and branch investigation into what went wrong with their election campaign.

The facts? Post some then rather than 'interesting' opinion pieces. I am sure you shared it because of your concern for the Labour Party though. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

The facts? Post some then rather than 'interesting' opinion pieces. I am sure you shared it because of your concern for the Labour Party though. :wink:

I posted it as an "Interesting piece".

I do like to keep up with the Labour shenanigans though.

[marinello59]

I posted it as an "Interesting piece".

I do like to keep up with the Labour shenanigans though.

I look forward to you posting up an 'interesting' piece that doesn't fit in with your world view then. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

I look forward to you posting up an 'interesting' piece that doesn't fit in with your world view then. :wink:

Don't be daft...Dafty.:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

People will believe what they want to believe, and confirmation bias is the name of the game on this thread, but there is no simple, convenient explanation for how the electorate voted last month.

This article, for example says that the SNP lost votes to Labour because of United's leadership campaign.

"And in Scotland, the left-wing union’s membership backed Labour ahead of the SNP for the first time in years.

Our survey showed that there has been an increase in Labour’s vote among Unite members - particularly in Scotland. For the first time in recent years, Labour is ahead of the SNP amongst our members,” the report says."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/unite-the-union-election-campaign-powered-the-corbyn-surge-leaked-report-shows_uk_597128f3e4b0e79ec1983c23

[hibsbollah]

Thoughtful article from a left wing perspective (warning: no SNP-Scot Labour bun fight content)

https://medium.com/@DarrellChaloner/corbyn-and-free-movement-e1f23ddd38cc

[cabbageandribs1875]

a stunningly accurate article about corbyn and the fantasy party's manifesto, although articles like this really should have been in the media at the time the loony party offered the fantasy manifesto to the nation in the lead-up to the GE, ,instead of running along with the corbyn tidal wave of hooked young voters :agree:


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4106655/jeremy-corbyns-broken-pledge-over-student-debt-is-a-tough-lesson-for-his-young-supporters/

[Colr]

Interesting

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/corbyn-coup-on-scottish-labour-fails-1-4514756

[hibsbollah]

Interesting

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/corbyn-coup-on-scottish-labour-fails-1-4514756

I only think it's interesting in terms of how it's being reported. Ian Murray, when he's mentioned his own leadership at all, has been critical of it. So theres a well known context. There is a vote to decide the PLP chair candidate, Murray wins the vote, continues. It's called democracy.

Voters and members will vote for the candidate that they think best represents them, as has always been the case. Momentum will continue to campaign online for left wing candidates. It's no 'coup' attempt :faf:

https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/corbynism-and-scottish-labour.html?m=1

[danhibees1875]

a stunningly accurate article about corbyn and the fantasy party's manifesto, although articles like this really should have been in the media at the time the loony party offered the fantasy manifesto to the nation in the lead-up to the GE, ,instead of running along with the corbyn tidal wave of hooked young voters :agree:


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4106655/jeremy-corbyns-broken-pledge-over-student-debt-is-a-tough-lesson-for-his-young-supporters/

Is that what passes as a good article?

The article didn't even quote JC saying he'd wipe off the debt (maybe because no quotes exist, at a guess). Cheap lazy stereotypes to insult students, make something up that Corbyn didn't promise and then proceeded to criticise him as if he did.

I was then expecting a plethora of broken promises being exposed, but the author gave up after his first poor attempt.

I don't know if the stuff below it was linked/by the same author but on the basis that it all read in a similar tone I'm assuming it was. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder about people trying to improve the world (why bother with electric cars on the basis that people at one time thought diesel was the better option) and his "jokes" about masterbating over Emily Ratajkowski wasn't what you'd expect from a high end news source like the sun.

[Pete]

Lots of desperate articles and people with various opinions tying themselves in knots trying to make sense of stats but it's a lot simpler than people think.

Youngsters aren't "hooked" or stupid, they are social media savvy and are working in the gig economy while giving over half their income to private landlords...a lifestyle that offers no security and only makes the rich richer. When I say young, I don't just mean teenagers as "generation rent" includes people in their twenties and thirties.

It's all about the policies and Corbyns vision gives real hope to those people. It's not fake and it's not unrealistic either...and one thing that's certain is that it's definitely happening.

The funny thing is that once it does, the vast majority of us will all be happier. :aok:

[Colr]

Labour party are all over the place, the Tories are all over the place. All three parties at WM are run by old middle class journeymen.

We need a Macron.

[Moulin Yarns]

A fun read.

http://derekbateman.scot/2017/08/28/a-trip-up-north/

[Future17]

Labour party are all over the place, the Tories are all over the place. All three parties at WM are run by old middle class journeymen.

We need a Macron.

Bake-off starts tonight.