The future of the Labour Party

[makaveli1875]

This labour leadership contest is turning out as, who hates Scotland more.

Back in yer box type politics from the supposed international socialists.

When have any of them said they hate Scotland?

[xyz23jc]

When have any of them said they hate Scotland?

Actions Comrade... Actions!:agree:

[makaveli1875]

Actions Comrade... Actions!:agree:

OK what actions have they taken that display hatred of Scotland

[weecounty hibby]

OK what actions have they taken that display hatred of Scotland
How would you describe advocating taking the same stance as Spain with the Catalans to Britain with Scots? You know, random beatings in the street of peaceful demonstrators and throwing political leaders in jail. This was suggested by more than one of them. We now have one saying she hates the SNP, by extension that is approximately 45% of the electorate and over 125,000 Scottish citizens

[makaveli1875]

How would you describe advocating taking the same stance as Spain with the Catalans to Britain with Scots? You know, random beatings in the street of peaceful demonstrators and throwing political leaders in jail. This was suggested by more than one of them. We now have one saying she hates the SNP, by extension that is approximately 45% of the electorate and over 125,000 Scottish citizens

Wow I had to look that 1 up. I can't imagine she meant beating people up and throwing Sturgeon in jail but you never know with socialists.

[Ozyhibby]

Wow I had to look that 1 up. I can't imagine she meant beating people up and throwing Sturgeon in jail but you never know with socialists.

Violence is always used to sustain socialism.


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[G B Young]

Wow I had to look that 1 up. I can't imagine she meant beating people up and throwing Sturgeon in jail but you never know with socialists.

:greengrin

Nandy was ill advised in what she said, but as you say she clearly didn't advocate violence. She was referring to the vast majority who had no interest in a Catalan indepdence referendum. The unofficial one which took place was boycotted by most voters and attracted only about a 40% turnout.

[Cataplana]

Violence is always used to sustain socialism.


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In what way?

[Ozyhibby]

In what way?

Has any socialist state not had to resort to violence to ensure its survival?


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[weecounty hibby]

:greengrin

Nandy was ill advised in what she said, but as you say she clearly didn't advocate violence. She was referring to the vast majority who had no interest in a Catalan indepdence referendum. The unofficial one which took place was boycotted by most voters and attracted only about a 40% turnout.
Where was the part in her speech where she said it was only about the vast majority and made the clear difference. Did she condemn the sending in of civil guard to break up peaceful protests while praising the Spanish government?
It just seems that they have seen the Tories being relatively successful with the anti SNP and independence rhetoric and they seem to want to take it further. Completely missing the point that a heap of the SNP support are ex Labour folk who were completely disillusioned with Labour. We now have one of them saying they hate the SNP! Well you know what that means me, she actually said she hates me. I am an SNP member so she hates me. That is a pathetic attempt at grabbing unionist votes and will probably alienate more people from her cause. Labour have a huge talent vacuum and this contest just shows how big that vacuum is

[JeMeSouviens]

:greengrin

Nandy was ill advised in what she said, but as you say she clearly didn't advocate violence. She was referring to the vast majority who had no interest in a Catalan indepdence referendum. The unofficial one which took place was boycotted by most voters and attracted only about a 40% turnout.

It had a 43% turnout in terms of counted votes but thousands were intimidated or beaten to stop them voting, ballot boxes were confiscated and couldn't be counted and polling stations were forced to close. And of course it was boycotted by the No side. To say the "vast majority" have no interest in a referendum is total nonsense. Polls have consistently shown support at 70-80% to hold a referendum even if the voting intention in that referendum hovers around 50/50.

But yes, you're correct that she wasn't advocating violence. She was rather ridiculously trying to hold up Catalonia as an example of somewhere that a "sister party" of Labour had seen off the nationalist scourge. In fact the PSC's vote has tanked in Catalonia over the last decade, going to the pro-indy ERC on one side and the more hardline unionist Ciutadans party on the other.

Nandy clearly had not a scooby what she was on about.

[G B Young]

It had a 43% turnout in terms of counted votes but thousands were intimidated or beaten to stop them voting, ballot boxes were confiscated and couldn't be counted and polling stations were forced to close. And of course it was boycotted by the No side. To say the "vast majority" have no interest in a referendum is total nonsense. Polls have consistently shown support at 70-80% to hold a referendum even if the voting intention in that referendum hovers around 50/50.

But yes, you're correct that she wasn't advocating violence. She was rather ridiculously trying to hold up Catalonia as an example of somewhere that a "sister party" of Labour had seen off the nationalist scourge. In fact the PSC's vote has tanked in Catalonia over the last decade, going to the pro-indy ERC on one side and the more hardline unionist Ciutadans party on the other.

Nandy clearly had not a scooby what she was on about.

Fair enough. You're clearly better read than me on this and I'm happy to accept what you say about the referendum polling. Whenever I have happened to read about this issue recently though it seems the majority are against independence:

https://www.thelocal.es/20191028/catalonias-remainers-the-silent-majority-who-dont-want-independence

The intimidation and violence shown towards those who took part in the unofficial referendum seems baffling and surely served only to give oxygen to the cause of the seperatists. Better surely just to have let it go ahead and then ignore the 'result'.

[G B Young]

Where was the part in her speech where she said it was only about the vast majority and made the clear difference. Did she condemn the sending in of civil guard to break up peaceful protests while praising the Spanish government?
It just seems that they have seen the Tories being relatively successful with the anti SNP and independence rhetoric and they seem to want to take it further. Completely missing the point that a heap of the SNP support are ex Labour folk who were completely disillusioned with Labour. We now have one of them saying they hate the SNP! Well you know what that means me, she actually said she hates me. I am an SNP member so she hates me. That is a pathetic attempt at grabbing unionist votes and will probably alienate more people from her cause. Labour have a huge talent vacuum and this contest just shows how big that vacuum is

Can't disagree with you there.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're complaining about a policy they've scrapped?

I’m pointing out they had a policy for eight years that they headlined in their manifesto.

A policy that benefitted the middle classes the most and benefitted the poorest not at all.

And a policy that led to council budgets being cut by hundreds of millions. And the impact of those cuts was felt the most by the weakest, the marginalised and the vulnerable, because they were most reliant on the support and services that local authorities could provide.

Tory playbook politics, and the fact it took them eight years to be shamed into stopping middle-class bribes tells its own story.

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair enough. You're clearly better read than me on this and I'm happy to accept what you say about the referendum polling. Whenever I have happened to read about this issue recently though it seems the majority are against independence:

https://www.thelocal.es/20191028/catalonias-remainers-the-silent-majority-who-dont-want-independence

The intimidation and violence shown towards those who took part in the unofficial referendum seems baffling and surely served only to give oxygen to the cause of the seperatists. Better surely just to have let it go ahead and then ignore the 'result'.

For some deeply inexplicable reason, the UK and Spanish media only seem to report the polls that show No with a lead. Amazing coincidence most probably!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHaX89PXUAAZ7UL.png


Agree they should've ignored it and they could have charged the Catalan government ministers with misuse of public funds or whatever rather than the faintly ridiculous sounding "sedition" and "rebellion".

[Mibbes Aye]

One which was fully funded by the Scottish government. In fact one independent report from spice said it was over funded.

I'm sure all parties had it in their manifestos in the end. That includes the third party in Scotland.

That’s funny because COSLA claimed it had cost councils hundreds of millions of pounds. Given COSLA indirectly represent all parties I wonder who is telling the truth.

And that is before we get to councils being threatened that their block grant would be cut if they didn’t implement the freeze. And it would be cut by far more than they could realistically increase council tax by.

Dont get me wrong - it was very clever politics. Take the credit for the freeze, and it was the local authorities who had to make the painful decisions. And take the blame when the libraries closed, when the day centres for adults with learning disabilities closed, when the lunch clubs for frail elderly people closed down, when the bins stopped being collected, when the budgets for fixing the pavements got cut, when subsidies for buses that went to the hospital or the GP practice got lost.

All the things that local authorities had to cut, because they are legally obliged to do other things, so anything that isn’t a statutory obligation has to go.

And all so that the SNP could offer a bribe to the middle classes. It is not exactly progressive is it? A tax freeze that benefits you more and more depending on how big your house is. A tax freeze that doesn’t apply if you are very poor. But a tax freeze that means if you are poor, then services you rely on are depleted or taken away completely.

[grunt]

I’m pointing out they had a policy for eight years that they headlined in their manifesto.

A policy that benefitted the middle classes the most and benefitted the poorest not at all.

And a policy that led to council budgets being cut by hundreds of millions. And the impact of those cuts was felt the most by the weakest, the marginalised and the vulnerable, because they were most reliant on the support and services that local authorities could provide.

Tory playbook politics, and the fact it took them eight years to be shamed into stopping middle-class bribes tells its own story.
I'm always wary of arguing with you because you clearly know more about these issues than I do. But I would expect that the SNP would reply by saying that the Council Tax freeze was in their manifesto, so they were doing what the voters wanted, "middle class" or not. And how do the poorest not benefit? Doesn't everyone over 18 pay the Council tax?

Further, I'm sure I read that the SNP stated that the freeze was funded, so that Local Authorities would not be affected by the reduction in the CT. But maybe they were lying.

Edit to add that I see you've answered these comments before I even posted them.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm always wary of arguing with you because you clearly know more about these issues than I do. But I would expect that the SNP would reply by saying that the Council Tax freeze was in their manifesto, so they were doing what the voters wanted, "middle class" or not. And how do the poorest not benefit? Doesn't everyone over 18 pay the Council tax?

Further, I'm sure I read that the SNP stated that the freeze was funded, so that Local Authorities would not be affected by the reduction in the CT. But maybe they were lying.

Edit to add that I see you've answered these comments before I even posted them.

People on low incomes or benefits, or those living with disabilities or impairments, pay a reduced council tax, and in the hardest-afflicted cases are exempt altogether.

In both relative and absolute terms, the freeze benefitted the better-off more than it helped the worse-off. But the double whammy was that the freeze hit non-statutory council services and they are services that had a greater uptake from he marginalisied, the frail and the weak. If you are on a comfortable middle-class salary you don’t need to go to the library to get internet access to register for benefits. If you aren’t frail elderly you don’t need to request the council that someone takes your wheelie bin out to the kerb for you. If you are financially not able to afford a car and to drive then you sort of need a bus that takes you to the hospital or the GP. You need safe, maintained pavements and street lighting just to get to the local shop for what will probably be over-priced bread or milk.

As for the funding thing, yes, I answered that. COSLA represent all councils, not one political party. And yes, I think the Scottish Government was not telling the truth about the funding settlement.

[JeMeSouviens]

People on low incomes or benefits, or those living with disabilities or impairments, pay a reduced council tax, and in the hardest-afflicted cases are exempt altogether.

In both relative and absolute terms, the freeze benefitted the better-off more than it helped the worse-off. But the double whammy was that the freeze hit non-statutory council services and they are services that had a greater uptake from he marginalisied, the frail and the weak. If you are on a comfortable middle-class salary you don’t need to go to the library to get internet access to register for benefits. If you aren’t frail elderly you don’t need to request the council that someone takes your wheelie bin out to the kerb for you. If you are financially not able to afford a car and to drive then you sort of need a bus that takes you to the hospital or the GP. You need safe, maintained pavements and street lighting just to get to the local shop for what will probably be over-priced bread or milk.

As for the funding thing, yes, I answered that. COSLA represent all councils, not one political party. And yes, I think the Scottish Government was not telling the truth about the funding settlement.

Was the CTF not partly a toys-out-the-pram response to the parliament rejecting the SNP's local* income tax? It reflects pretty badly on the SNP that we still have council tax after all these years, tbh.


*actually not local.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm always wary of arguing with you because you clearly know more about these issues than I do. But I would expect that the SNP would reply by saying that the Council Tax freeze was in their manifesto, so they were doing what the voters wanted, "middle class" or not. And how do the poorest not benefit? Doesn't everyone over 18 pay the Council tax?

Further, I'm sure I read that the SNP stated that the freeze was funded, so that Local Authorities would not be affected by the reduction in the CT. But maybe they were lying.

Edit to add that I see you've answered these comments before I even posted them.

Meant to add, it shouldn’t be a case of thinking you are arguing with me. You made reasonable points and I was happy to read them, I have made points back. That’s all.

I don’t get the sense that you have an unswerving agenda that you can’t see beyond, so I am genuinely happy to debate. I don’t presume that I am always in the right to be honest :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Presenting council tax as something only middle class people pay is probably why the Labour Party lost so heavily.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Was the CTF not partly a toys-out-the-pram response to the parliament rejecting the SNP's local* income tax? It reflects pretty badly on the SNP that we still have council tax after all these years, tbh.


*actually not local.

Aha, yes, what ever happened to progressive reform of taxation at Holyrood level?

This isn’t a dig at the SNP, I think there is a paucity of debate across the spectrum. Maybe it actually needs a separate thread.

What does progressive taxation look like? What should it look like?

Income tax is relatively straightforward. One can argue about thresholds and the problems of marginal tax but it feels like the principle of being taxed on what you earn is accepted.

Council tax is a bit of a mess to say the least, and doesn’t appear to be that equitable when you get into the detail.

We have VAT, which studies suggest costs poorer households more of their income than wealthier ones.

And that is before we get into capital gains, inheritance tax etc.

[Hibbyradge]

Presenting council tax as something only middle class people pay is probably why the Labour Party lost so heavily.


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I don't think anyone has done that and it certainly wasn't a factor in Labour losing support.

[Mibbes Aye]

Presenting council tax as something only middle class people pay is probably why the Labour Party lost so heavily.


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Dont think anyone has done that :confused:

What has been said is that the freeze had a big impact on non-statutory council services, and those services had more uptake from people on low incomes and those with care and support needs.

Said it earlier, given how it played out you would have thought Peter Lilley or Michael Howard had introduced it, not the supposed ‘Wha’s Like Us’, supposedly progressive, supposedly civic nationalist, supposedly ‘left of centre’ SNP.

Shameful policy and shameful it took so long for them to rescind it.

[Ozyhibby]

Dont think anyone has done that :confused:

What has been said is that the freeze had a big impact on non-statutory council services, and those services had more uptake from people on low incomes and those with care and support needs.

Said it earlier, given how it played out you would have thought Peter Lilley or Michael Howard had introduced it, not the supposed ‘Wha’s Like Us’, supposedly progressive, supposedly civic nationalist, supposedly ‘left of centre’ SNP.

Shameful policy and shameful it took so long for them to rescind it.

The public were desperate for that policy after years of above inflation rises in council tax. It might be described as shameful to keep expecting the public to keep paying ever higher bills. Eventually the public will have their say at the ballot box.
If any political party wants to raise taxes in a democracy they better make sure they sell it to the public. Labour failed to do this year after year and eventually paid the price.


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[ronaldo7]

That’s funny because COSLA claimed it had cost councils hundreds of millions of pounds. Given COSLA indirectly represent all parties I wonder who is telling the truth.

And that is before we get to councils being threatened that their block grant would be cut if they didn’t implement the freeze. And it would be cut by far more than they could realistically increase council tax by.

Dont get me wrong - it was very clever politics. Take the credit for the freeze, and it was the local authorities who had to make the painful decisions. And take the blame when the libraries closed, when the day centres for adults with learning disabilities closed, when the lunch clubs for frail elderly people closed down, when the bins stopped being collected, when the budgets for fixing the pavements got cut, when subsidies for buses that went to the hospital or the GP practice got lost.

All the things that local authorities had to cut, because they are legally obliged to do other things, so anything that isn’t a statutory obligation has to go.

And all so that the SNP could offer a bribe to the middle classes. It is not exactly progressive is it? A tax freeze that benefits you more and more depending on how big your house is. A tax freeze that doesn’t apply if you are very poor. But a tax freeze that means if you are poor, then services you rely on are depleted or taken away completely.

So cosla are the truth tellers, and spice are telling porkies. Gotcha.👍

The tax had risen over 60% in the previous labour/lib Dem coalition years.

I wonder why all parties then got onboard with the policy, they must have seen something in it eh.

Yes their were stipulations about where some of the money was to be spent, like cash to close the gap on attainment.
I'd rather that, than have councils move money from budgets to give cash to the orange order, rather than fix the roads.

Each to their own though.

[Mibbes Aye]

The public were desperate for that policy after years of above inflation rises in council tax. It might be described as shameful to keep expecting the public to keep paying ever higher bills. Eventually the public will have their say at the ballot box.
If any political party wants to raise taxes in a democracy they better make sure they sell it to the public. Labour failed to do this year after year and eventually paid the price.


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The public were desperate for a freeze in council tax that hurt services for the poorest and most marginalised?

Are you sure?

[Ozyhibby]

The public were desperate for a freeze in council tax that hurt services for the poorest and most marginalised?

Are you sure?

What do you think was most responsible for the SNP win in 2007? Independence wasn’t really a big issue then.


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[1875godsgift]

Dont think anyone has done that :confused:

What has been said is that the freeze had a big impact on non-statutory council services, and those services had more uptake from people on low incomes and those with care and support needs.

Said it earlier, given how it played out you would have thought Peter Lilley or Michael Howard had introduced it, not the supposed ‘Wha’s Like Us’, supposedly progressive, supposedly civic nationalist, supposedly ‘left of centre’ SNP.

Shameful policy and shameful it took so long for them to rescind it.

So does that mean that public spending in Scotland is lower than the rest of the UK?

Shameful if that's true.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200129/4b8c9c91fb4878acb0ea3c30e3018c12.plist

Don’t think Labour are ready to start thinking about winning just yet.


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[Cataplana]

Has any socialist state not had to resort to violence to ensure its survival?


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In what way? Can you explain which states have used violence, and how they differ to state control in non socialist countries.

Think about France, Britain, Nicaragua, Cuba for example.

[JeMeSouviens]

RLB quoted by Alex Massie in the Times:


“when we devolved power to Scotland and Wales they were never meant to be a satellite government with Westminster being the king and them being servile under the bottom. They were meant to be on an equal footing.”

Eh? Can she really be that ignorant? :confused:

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200129/4b8c9c91fb4878acb0ea3c30e3018c12.plist

Don’t think Labour are ready to start thinking about winning just yet.


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Labour was right but the voters were wrong.

The voters just need this explained to them.

[Mibbes Aye]

So does that mean that public spending in Scotland is lower than the rest of the UK?

Shameful if that's true.

You should maybe clarify what you mean by public spending.

There is a lot of legally-required spend on benefits, health and social services that all adds up to 'public spending' in Scotland. It generally indicates a high proportion of socio-economic deprivation and health inequalities.

It is shameful that there are such massive inequalities between Shettleston and Newton Mearns, let alone Shettleston and Maidenhead.

[Mibbes Aye]

What do you think was most responsible for the SNP win in 2007? Independence wasn’t really a big issue then.


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Really?

The public were desperate for a council tax freeze in 2007?

I voted then, I can barely remember what my council tax bill was, but it was nowhere on the list of my voting priorities.

[Ozyhibby]

Really?

The public were desperate for a council tax freeze in 2007?

I voted then, I can barely remember what my council tax bill was, but it was nowhere on the list of my voting priorities.

Did you vote for the SNP? If your council tax bill was no problem then you may not have.
For a lot of people the year on year above inflation council tax rises were causing significant difficulties. And they are not all middle class. Lots of working class people pay council tax as well.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Did you vote for the SNP? If your council tax bill was no problem then you may not have.
For a lot of people the year on year above inflation council tax rises were causing significant difficulties. And they are not all middle class. Lots of working class people pay council tax as well.


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Evidence of people woting for the SNP due to their proposed council tax freeze in the 2007 manifesto.

Whenever you want.

[Ozyhibby]

Evidence of people woting for the SNP due to their proposed council tax freeze in the 2007 manifesto.

Whenever you want.

If you think it had no effect then fair enough, I doubt I’m going to convince you.
The council tax freeze was a popular policy. Popular enough that they won again in 2011 after promising to continue it for the whole of the next parliament. By this time Labour were copying it but would only promise to freeze it for two years. They were wiped out.


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[Hibbyradge]

Did you vote for the SNP? If your council tax bill was no problem then you may not have.
For a lot of people the year on year above inflation council tax rises were causing significant difficulties. And they are not all middle class. Lots of working class people pay council tax as well.


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I very much doubt that the council tax freeze made any difference to the electorate's decisions.

What's the average council tax in Edinburgh is, maybe £1700 p.a., £2000?

Raising it in line with inflation would be equivalent to about £1 per week. Even if you're a top rate payer, it would only have been £2.

That's no vote winner.

Ironically, it would be much easier for Labour to address if that had been the reason they lost so heavily.

[G B Young]

Thornberry's remarks show the classic blind spot that seems to affect practically all British politicians:

“Tories wrapped up in nationalist clothing”

Like actual Tories aren't, to-a-person, jingoistic flag twirlers with a positively galactic superiority complex. It's quite incredible.

I see she's now apologised. Don't imagine it will make much difference. It was strong (and as you say pretty ignorant) stuff to come out with which will tend to stick:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51311286

[JeMeSouviens]

I see she's now apologised. Don't imagine it will make much difference. It was strong (and as you say pretty ignorant) stuff to come out with which will tend to stick:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51311286

Fair play to her for that at least.

[jonty]

All the council tax freeze was to kick the increase down the road. as soon as the freeze was removed it jumped 21% (to more than it would have been on a 3% increase).
And the subsequent 3% increases result in more £ per year.

Wonder what the council did with their bumper payments through 17/18





What's the average council tax in Edinburgh is, maybe £1700 p.a., £2000?

Depends on the band
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands/1

Fife arent that far behind them
https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax/council-tax-bands-and-charges

[Smartie]

I see she's now apologised. Don't imagine it will make much difference. It was strong (and as you say pretty ignorant) stuff to come out with which will tend to stick:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51311286

I was really unimpressed with her comments but in fairness her apology seems genuine and it should be accepted.

[Hibbyradge]

All the council tax freeze was to kick the increase down the road. as soon as the freeze was removed it jumped 21% (to more than it would have been on a 3% increase).
And the subsequent 3% increases result in more £ per year.

Wonder what the council did with their bumper payments through 17/18



Depends on the band
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands/1

Fife arent that far behind them
https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax/council-tax-bands-and-charges

I understand that. I was looking for the average.

[grunt]

I was really unimpressed with her comments but in fairness her apology seems genuine and it should be accepted.

I'm struggling with this somewhat. Yes her apology seemed genuine, but then so too did her hatred in her original rant. So I then wonder if she's really sorry for what she said, or sorry for the fact it was reported so widely. I can't unhear her speech and frankly the apology doesn't change my views on her.

[lapsedhibee]

I understand that. I was looking for the average.

Quarter of properties are in Bands E-H, but can't find any info about average.

[Hibbyradge]

Quarter of properties are in Bands E-H, but can't find any info about average.

Thanks. It doesn't matter anyway. The point remains that council tax rises are relatively small in cash terms so a manifesto pledge to freeze them wouldn't do much to increase vote share.

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks. It doesn't matter anyway. The point remains that council tax rises are relatively small in cash terms so a manifesto pledge to freeze them wouldn't do much to increase vote share.

That's why I don't understand why anyone would obsess about the freeze.

[Hiber-nation]

I understand that. I was looking for the average.

Is this what you're after?

https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Local-Government-Finance/DatasetsCouncilTax/Average1920

[Smartie]

I'm struggling with this somewhat. Yes her apology seemed genuine, but then so too did her hatred in her original rant. So I then wonder if she's really sorry for what she said, or sorry for the fact it was reported so widely. I can't unhear her speech and frankly the apology doesn't change my views on her.

One of the responses I saw was a sequence of 3 tweets by Mark Lazarowicz. He very clearly explained the justifications he might have to hate the SNP - but that he didn’t hate them, and that she was wrong to either hate them or say she did.

I’d like to think she - rather than be concerned only with the consequences of her actions - got a chance to reflect on her words, listen to the entirely justified criticism and realise quite quickly that she was wrong to speak the way she did, whether she believes her words or not.

[G B Young]

That’s funny because COSLA claimed it had cost councils hundreds of millions of pounds. Given COSLA indirectly represent all parties I wonder who is telling the truth.

And that is before we get to councils being threatened that their block grant would be cut if they didn’t implement the freeze. And it would be cut by far more than they could realistically increase council tax by.

Dont get me wrong - it was very clever politics. Take the credit for the freeze, and it was the local authorities who had to make the painful decisions. And take the blame when the libraries closed, when the day centres for adults with learning disabilities closed, when the lunch clubs for frail elderly people closed down, when the bins stopped being collected, when the budgets for fixing the pavements got cut, when subsidies for buses that went to the hospital or the GP practice got lost.

All the things that local authorities had to cut, because they are legally obliged to do other things, so anything that isn’t a statutory obligation has to go.

And all so that the SNP could offer a bribe to the middle classes. It is not exactly progressive is it? A tax freeze that benefits you more and more depending on how big your house is. A tax freeze that doesn’t apply if you are very poor. But a tax freeze that means if you are poor, then services you rely on are depleted or taken away completely.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-hypocrisy-of-deploring-inequality-while-snp-priorities-make-it-worse-brian-wilson-1-5083996

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-hypocrisy-of-deploring-inequality-while-snp-priorities-make-it-worse-brian-wilson-1-5083996

Be good if unionist keep listening to voices like Brian Wilson.[emoji6]




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[Hibbyradge]

Be good if unionist keep listening to voices like Brian Wilson.[emoji6]




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I've no idea why unionists listening to a unionist is good for the nationalists.

Surely you'd want them to listen to the nationalists? Particularly as Yes isn't in the lead.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/6a08dda147eddb5c010e498a20c49b1a.plist


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[Curried]

I've no idea why unionists listening to a unionist is good for the nationalists.

Surely you'd want them to listen to the nationalists? Particularly as Yes isn't in the lead.


Not according to the most recent YouGov Poll on 30 Jan which has Yes on 51%.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/30/scottish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/6a08dda147eddb5c010e498a20c49b1a.plist


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Starmer well ahead with the CLPs. Haven’t heard a dickie bird from the SWP cabal that’s taken over my one!!

[Ozyhibby]

Not according to the most recent YouGov Poll on 30 Jan which has Yes on 51%.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/30/scottish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi

Not hard to see why Unions are getting behind independence when you see the lead Yes has among people of working age.


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[Curried]

Not hard to see why Unions are getting behind independence when you see the lead Yes has among people of working age.


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:agree:

62% of 18-24 year-olds, and 67% of 25-49 year-olds, now displaying a preference for independence suggest there's an inevitability about it.....assuming this cohort don't turn into their parents!

[Colr]

:agree:

62% of 18-24 year-olds, and 67% of 25-49 year-olds, now displaying a preference for independence suggest there's an inevitability about it.....assuming this cohort don't turn into their parents!

I haven’t turned into my parents but it seems like a lot of my generation have done!!

I’d be interested in seeing similar stats for Norn Irn.

Wales, of course, will be happy to do whatever England tells them to do.

[Ozyhibby]

I haven’t turned into my parents but it seems like a lot of my generation have done!!

I’d be interested in seeing similar stats for Norn Irn.

Wales, of course, will be happy to do whatever England tells them to do.

There isn’t in Northern Ireland. Their political affiliations don’t really change with age. There is now a nationalist majority due to demographic changes.

In Scotland, the over 65’s are just more attached to the union. I can’t see the 59% of under 65’s in favour of Yes suddenly changing to No the minute they get to 65. The difference is just too big.

In general elections the older populations leans toward Tory but it is a gradual shift as you go up the age groups. In Scotland it is just the over 65’s who support the union. That’s pretty rare and it doesn’t bode well for the union.


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[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/6a08dda147eddb5c010e498a20c49b1a.plist


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What's the thinking behind the process to elect a new leader having to be drawn out over such a phenomenal length of time? I gather the result won't actually be declared until April!! Way longer than a general election.

Do the other parties stretch these things out to such an extent?

Meanwhile, Labour are lumbered with Corbyn continuing to chunter away at the despatch box, tilting at the same old windmills as though the election never happened.

[Colr]

What's the thinking behind the process to elect a new leader having to be drawn out over such a phenomenal length of time? I gather the result won't actually be declared until April!! Way longer than a general election.

Do the other parties stretch these things out to such an extent?

Meanwhile, Labour are lumbered with Corbyn continuing to chunter away at the despatch box, tilting at the same old windmills as though the election never happened.

In previous contests I seem to recall and interim taking over. I’m sure Harriet Harman did one time.

It’s pathetic to see that twat Corbyn still getting air time.

[G B Young]

In previous contests I seem to recall and interim taking over. I’m sure Harriet Harman did one time.

It’s pathetic to see that twat Corbyn still getting air time.

Yep she was interim leader twice following the resignations of Brown and Miliband, both of whom resigned immediately after losing elections - unlike that limpet Corbyn.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/voters-feel-no-enthusiasm-or-affection-for-snp-says-lisa-nandy-1-5085375/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Lisa Nandy showing how in touch with Scotland she is.


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[heretoday]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/voters-feel-no-enthusiasm-or-affection-for-snp-says-lisa-nandy-1-5085375/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Lisa Nandy showing how in touch with Scotland she is.


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She's not very smart.

[Northernhibee]

Starmer and Rayner could topple Boris at the next election. Passionate but not radical. Interesting lives outside of politics too. Real life experience.

If Wrong-Daily gets in they will soon fall out of official opposition to third largest party.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/mattsingh_/status/1226998579908300801?s=21

Thread worth reading on Lord Ashcroft poll on why Labour lost.

Couple of things stand out.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200212/6014e450b618998b47bfa6fa59b3b176.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200212/b6bcf2bf78073d3258bbec4f913765cc.jpg


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/mattsingh_/status/1226998579908300801?s=21

Thread worth reading on Lord Ashcroft poll on why Labour lost.



Was literally just about to post that. Lots of interesting stuff in it ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQcyP_HXsAAkUjc?format=jpg&name=large

[Northernhibee]

Was literally just about to post that. Lots of interesting stuff in it ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQcyP_HXsAAkUjc?format=jpg&name=large


It wasn't even student politics, that.

Common sense dictates that the way you announce a policy is as follows:



Identify an issue that affects peoples day to day lives
Highlight why the opposition party have worsened or created that issue
Highlight the lack of planning of what your opponent is going to do
Announce your policy
Explain why your policy will improve peoples day to day lives


It's really, really simple.

The "free broadband" came out of nowhere and felt almost laughable and played into the hands of the "Corbyn and his magic money tree" brigade. The fact that Wrong-Daily has come out and said that she sees no faults in the leadership of Corbyn is worrying, if she's elected leader the Tories are in power for twenty years more minimum.

[Ozyhibby]

Thornberry out the leadership race.


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[heretoday]

I'm sorry Thornberry is out. Looking at the four of them she's the only one I'd enjoy going for a pint with! She's a bit old school and could have matched Johnson at the dispatch box. The others are kind of narrow-ersed types.

[Frankhfc]

I'm sorry Thornberry is out. Looking at the four of them she's the only one I'd enjoy going for a pint with! She's a bit old school and could have matched Johnson at the dispatch box. The others are kind of narrow-ersed types.

Thornberry was a sneering elitist snob of the worst kind and epitomised Labour's descent into obscurity.

Corbyn's policies of nationalision and a leader who has mainstream appeal combined with likeability would deliver in spades.

[heretoday]

Thornberry was a sneering elitist snob of the worst kind and epitomised Labour's descent into obscurity.

Corbyn's policies of nationalision and a leader who has mainstream appeal combined with likeability would deliver in spades.

Well clearly we don't agree!

[Ozyhibby]

Thornberry was a sneering elitist snob of the worst kind and epitomised Labour's descent into obscurity.

Corbyn's policies of nationalision and a leader who has mainstream appeal combined with likeability would deliver in spades.

That’s the big takeaway from the election? That everyone wants nationalisation? [emoji23][emoji23]


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[Frankhfc]

Well clearly we don't agree!

Yep, but there's nothing wrong in disagreeing with other people as long as its kept civil enough. Life would be very dull indeed if we all had the same opinion.

Corbyn's big policies were well received in general, however, the press and his own failings weren't enough to carry him forward. A leader with far greater charisma and likeability very well could though. Thornberry doesn't possess such attributes. Looking forward to seeing who does win the contest and what they can bring to table as we need a strong opposition no matter who you vote for.

[Cataplana]

Seems to be a real whiff of "ee bah goom" about the candidates standing to replace Corbyn. Personally, they'll struggle to get my vote as long as they continue to talk about how far they have "coom", what their plans for the "*****ry" are, and looking for stronger "goon control."

I find it incredibly patronising when people affect an accent to fit in with a particular group. Listen carefully and you'll hear them lapse into Received Pronounciation when they think nobody is listening. Thick Northerner accent when delivering the punchlines, but able to speak clearly and correctly whenever asked to give proper explanations.

[Future17]

Seems to be a real whiff of "ee bah goom" about the candidates standing to replace Corbyn. Personally, they'll struggle to get my vote as long as they continue to talk about how far they have "coom", what their plans for the "*****ry" are, and looking for stronger "goon control."

I find it incredibly patronising when people affect an accent to fit in with a particular group. Listen carefully and you'll hear them lapse into Received Pronounciation when they think nobody is listening. Thick Northerner accent when delivering the punchlines, but able to speak clearly and correctly whenever asked to give proper explanations.

I do that and my wife gives me stick for it. The thing is, I rarely know it's happening. I hear the way the person I'm seeking to communicate with speaks and I automatically adapt to mirror it. I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily and it's actually hugely beneficial in my job.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Just heard RLB on Andrew Marr with her leadership pitch. Although she comes across as a confident and consistent performer, she seems to have a dilemma trying to distance herself from the continuity Corbyn candidate, when her political baggage that she carries shows her very much to be that. I am not sure that someone else, saying the same thing, is enough of a shift for the disaffected voters to come back to Labour.

[Cataplana]

I do that and my wife gives me stick for it. The thing is, I rarely know it's happening. I hear the way the person I'm seeking to communicate with speaks and I automatically adapt to mirror it. I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily and it's actually hugely beneficial in my job.

I'm guilty of what you describe myself. The thing is, if it applied to the two women I saw on telly this morning they'd have been talking like Andrew Marr, not a minor character on Coronation Street.

They put me in mind of Lulu whenever she remembers the Glasgow accent she lost in 1966.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that we have descended into the same talk about a female politician's accent. I can't remember the name of the short lived LibDem leader that got a load of stick on here for having a 'put on'accent, now it seems their real accent is seen as something to ridicule. You couldn't make it up, it's almost as if their policies don't matter any more.

Now Keir Stammer, there's an accent that every Labour voter can relate to. :greengrin

[Cataplana]

I see that we have descended into the same talk about a female politician's accent. I can't remember the name of the short lived LibDem leader that got a load of stick on here for having a 'put on'accent, now it seems their real accent is seen as something to ridicule. You couldn't make it up, it's almost as if their policies don't matter any more.

Now Keir Stammer, there's an accent that every Labour voter can relate to. :greengrin

No, I wasn't singling out the females, as Budgen is just as guilty.

It is not the accent that is important it is whether it is genuine. It makes the politician appear less trustworthy.

[Moulin Yarns]

No, I wasn't singling out the females, as Budgen is just as guilty.

It is not the accent that is important it is whether it is genuine. It makes the politician appear less trustworthy.

Both Rebecca Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner are from Greater Manchester, I wouldn't expect them to speak in anything other than a northern accent. Does Keir Starmer have a 'London ' accent?

Who is Budgen? Richard Burgon? Born in Leeds.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let's have a wee laugh.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/05/inside-rebecca-long-bailey-and-angela-rayner-flat-share-where-something-is-brewing

[Cataplana]

Both Rebecca Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner are from Greater Manchester, I wouldn't expect them to speak in anything other than a northern accent. Does Keir Starmer have a 'London ' accent?

Who is Budgen? Richard Burgon? Born in Leeds.

You know what? I dont really care, it was a wry observation, that's all.

Yeah, it was Burgon, thanks for the heads up.

Just for the record though, nobody was singling out females.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, I wasn't singling out the females, as Budgen is just as guilty.

It is not the accent that is important it is whether it is genuine. It makes the politician appear less trustworthy.

I grew up on the council estates of East Lothian, when I joined the army I got the nickname "Captain Caveman" because nobody could understand me. My accent evolved, it wasn't intentional but I guess having to constantly repeat yourself becomes a chore. It doesn't mean I've forgotten my roots or think I'm better in anyway, it's just another sign that I've evolved and adapted to my environment, nothing more, nothing less.

[Northernhibee]

A staggering video put up by Momentum this morning showing RLB speaking to a Brexit voting couple, Im guessing to blame Brexit for the Labour collapse rather than Corbyn.

What’s worst is that the couple pin waiting times for a GP on immigrants and RLB fails to challenge that.

For what is in effect a stage managed campaign video it’s an absolute howler.

[Cataplana]

I grew up on the council estates of East Lothian, when I joined the army I got the nickname "Captain Caveman" because nobody could understand me. My accent evolved, it wasn't intentional but I guess having to constantly repeat yourself becomes a chore. It doesn't mean I've forgotten my roots or think I'm better in anyway, it's just another sign that I've evolved and adapted to my environment, nothing more, nothing less.

A similar experience to mine. I wouldnt dream of affecting my old accent to impress or curry favour though.

I still suffer in London though, where despite my attempts to speak slowly and enunciate correctly, I am still greeted by a fixed grin and much nodding by the time I reach the end of my first sentence.

My feeling is that these politicians, Jo Swinson was another, put on an accent to impress those they see as their voters

Well, a whole load of Tories won seats in the north without the need to pretend to be the same as the voters they were appealing to. Maybe it's just another example of Labour totally missing the point.

I have to say, it doesn't seem to be something that happens in Scottish politics, maybe because politicians up here learned from Thatcher's cringeworthy attempts to "get down with the Jockos."

A staggering video put up by Momentum this morning showing RLB speaking to a Brexit voting couple, Im guessing to blame Brexit for the Labour collapse rather than Corbyn.

What’s worst is that the couple pin waiting times for a GP on immigrants and RLB fails to challenge that.

For what is in effect a stage managed campaign video it’s an absolute howler.

Hard not to credit the Tories election victory to Brexit when it was the central slogan of their campaign.

[Smartie]

Most Scottish politicians adopt that nondescript generic Scottish accent that defies region and social class.

Occasionally you get the Gove and Swinson types who realise that they need to appeal to a greater number of voters down South and get elocution lessons to make themselves sound frankly ridiculous.

I don’t have that much of a problem with folk who alter their accents depending on circumstances. It would be ridiculous for me to converse with Lords and Ladies at my work in the same vernacular that I use to demand Paul Heckingbottom’s departure from Hibernian.

[Cataplana]

Most Scottish politicians adopt that nondescript generic Scottish accent that defies region and social class.

Occasionally you get the Gove and Swinson types who realise that they need to appeal to a greater number of voters down South and get elocution lessons to make themselves sound frankly ridiculous.

I don’t have that much of a problem with folk who alter their accents depending on circumstances. It would be ridiculous for me to converse with Lords and Ladies at my work in the same vernacular that I use to demand Paul Heckingbottom’s departure from Hibernian.

I suppose Stewart Cosgrove is a prime example, he talks like someone from Letham when he's on with Tam, but has a much softer accent when taking part in arts programmes.

[Moulin Yarns]

I suppose Stewart Cosgrove is a prime example, he talks like someone from Letham when he's on with Tam, but has a much softer accent when taking part in arts programmes.

He has to bring a balance to the rough accent from Tam.

[Hibbyradge]

I like my accent, but I think it softens when I haven't been to Edinburgh or seen my mates for a while.

I'm very broad Edinburgh when I come back from being up the road for a weekend.

[Cataplana]

He has to bring a balance to the rough accent from Tam.

:greengrin

[Northernhibee]

Hard not to credit the Tories election victory to Brexit when it was the central slogan of their campaign.

Nah, much as the Tories stuck to soundbites, the Labour campaign was beyond atrocious.

To this day I still don't know if Corbyn was for or against EU membership, for or against a second referendum in Scotland and other key issues such as that. You don't get protests that start "WHAT DO WE WANT?" "We don't know!".

[Smartie]

Just came into this debate halfway through.

Really impressed with Starmer so far.

[Northernhibee]

Who is the best Labour leader of the last fifty years?

Wrong Daily’s answer to that - of the last fifty years - was Atlee.

Genuinely thick as mince.

[Hibbyradge]

Who is the best Labour leader of the last fifty years?

Wrong Daily’s answer to that - of the last fifty years - was Atlee.

Genuinely thick as mince.

Ridiculous.

[Cataplana]

Who is the best Labour leader of the last fifty years?

Wrong Daily’s answer to that - of the last fifty years - was Atlee.

Genuinely thick as mince.

What did Atlee ever do for us?

[G B Young]

Corbyn's 'posh Commie' advisory team beginning to disband:

https://www.ft.com/content/dc552842-5289-11ea-8841-482eed0038b1

I see he's described as "the scion of a Scottish aristocratic dynasty". Could it be that for all Corbyn's bluster about standing up for the many, the reason he was so decisively rejected at the ballot box is because he and his team were utterly out of touch with those he claimed to represent? Seamus Milne (educated at Winchester College and Oxford) is hardly what you'd regard as a man of the people, while Corbyn himself is of relatively affluent stock himself.

Not saying privately-educated folk who were brought up in comfortable circumstances can't connect with the many (Jim Morrison and Joe Strummer spring to mind) but it's pretty damning that Labour's 'red wall' was brought down by working class voters who felt Boris Johnson understood their needs better than Corbyn.

[Hiber-nation]

Who is the best Labour leader of the last fifty years?

Wrong Daily’s answer to that - of the last fifty years - was Atlee.

Genuinely thick as mince.

He died more than 50 years ago!!

[HiBremian]

When did Atlee ever do for us?

Fixed that for you :greengrin

[Cataplana]

Fixed that for you :greengrin

Thank you. :aok:

I am now coming to terms with the fact that the second world war finished more than 50 years ago. It seems like yesterday, the way people talk.

[Northernhibee]

He died more than 50 years ago!!

Long-Bailey isn’t fit to work in the Westminster gift shop - if Momentum pish her through then Cummings is running the UK for at least twenty years

[AndyM_1875]

Long-Bailey isn’t fit to work in the Westminster gift shop - if Momentum pish her through then Cummings is running the UK for at least twenty years

I'm a former Labour member and unfortunately you're correct. She's continuity Corbyn, out of touch and hopeless and won't apologise or criticise the overloaded manifesto.
Also hate to say it but her accent will go down like a bucket of vomit with many of the people Labour need to vote for them as they'll think she sounds like a barmaid from the Rovers Return.

Starmer is racing ahead however and it looks like he'll be leader by April. Hopefully the first thing he'll do is show the door to Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbot and Burgon who have all been an absolute liability.
Starmer might well win the votes needed to drag Labour back (at least in England and Wales) and he's getting support from the left of the party (who appear to have finally realised it's not much fun getting gubbed in elections) as well as the centrists and looks like a leader and someone who could actually call out BoJo's nonsense and lies.

Although even though she has shown her ignorance of Scottish politics, Nandy's an interesting character and her time may well come.

[Colr]

I'm a former Labour member and unfortunately you're correct. She's continuity Corbyn, out of touch and hopeless and won't apologise or criticise the overloaded manifesto.
Also hate to say it but her accent will go down like a bucket of vomit with many of the people Labour need to vote for them as they'll think she sounds like a barmaid from the Rovers Return.

Starmer is racing ahead however and it looks like he'll be leader by April. Hopefully the first thing he'll do is show the door to Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbot and Burgon who have all been an absolute liability.
Starmer might well win the votes needed to drag Labour back (at least in England and Wales) and he's getting support from the left of the party (who appear to have finally realised it's not much fun getting gubbed in elections) as well as the centrists and looks like a leader and someone who could actually call out BoJo's nonsense and lies.

Although even though she has shown her ignorance of Scottish politics, Nandy's an interesting character and her time may well come.

Agree with all of that. Starmer is smart and has played his hand to attract centre and left. He could do with some charisma but I think he’ll be good at disection boris’s bull****. I hope he will bring in Yvette Cooper for similar effect. He could do with working on his charisma, though!!

Nandy looked good but she has been a bit niave to walk into the trans elephant trap that the press set her up for. RLB would be a disaster.

Deputy leader list is a bit ****, though.

[Colr]

Ballots are out.

Don’t understand why this is taking so long and why Corbyn hasn’t stepped down in favour of an interim like Hariett Harman as in the last two emptying of the duds.

[Ozyhibby]

Ballots are out.

Don’t understand why this is taking so long and why Corbyn hasn’t stepped down in favour of an interim like Hariett Harman as in the last two emptying of the duds.

He’s still hoping to have control if RLB get the gig.


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[G B Young]

Ballots are out.

Don’t understand why this is taking so long and why Corbyn hasn’t stepped down in favour of an interim like Hariett Harman as in the last two emptying of the duds.

It's absurd. More than a month of this still to go. Hardly the way to be 'holding the PM to account' by taking four months to find a new leader.

My impression of Corbyn is that he's actually a bit dim. Either that or he has a huge ego and sees no reason why leading Labour to their worst General Election result in nearly a century would in any way oblige him to to step down with immediate effect. I note, in fact, that he's lobbying for a spot in the new shadow cabinet - not something you can imagine many other party leaders past their sell-by date having the brass neck to do. The sad thing is that were RLB to become leader she'd probably agree to keep him on board, bearing in mind that she gave him 'ten out of ten' when asked about his leadership skills in the wake of their election trouncing.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's absurd. More than a month of this still to go. Hardly the way to be 'holding the PM to account' by taking four months to find a new leader.

My impression of Corbyn is that he's actually a bit dim. Either that or he has a huge ego and sees no reason why leading Labour to their worst General Election result in nearly a century would in any way oblige him to to step down with immediate effect. I note, in fact, that he's lobbying for a spot in the new shadow cabinet - not something you can imagine many other party leaders past their sell-by date having the brass neck to do. The sad thing is that were RLB to become leader she'd probably agree to keep him on board, bearing in mind that she gave him 'ten out of ten' when asked about his leadership skills in the wake of their election trouncing.

It's more simple than that. The party machinery is currently in the hands of his hard left chums. They are trying to keep it that way hoping for a smooth transition to RLB. They will lose Corbyn but not Corbynism (they hope).

[Colr]

It's more simple than that. The party machinery is currently in the hands of his hard left chums. They are trying to keep it that way hoping for a smooth transition to RLB. They will lose Corbyn but not Corbynism (they hope).

Not if my vote makes a difference - mind you it made **** all difference in the last two leadships elections.

[Cataplana]

Not if my vote makes a difference - mind you it made **** all difference in the last two leadships elections.

Democracy, bloody hell.

[Colr]

Democracy, bloody hell.

I blame the Chartists!!

[Cataplana]

I blame the Chartists!!

Splitters!

[G B Young]

It's more simple than that. The party machinery is currently in the hands of his hard left chums. They are trying to keep it that way hoping for a smooth transition to RLB. They will lose Corbyn but not Corbynism (they hope).

Machinery is an apt word when referring to Corbynism. It's like a pre-programmed, unbending mantra that requires no upgrade even in the event of a calamitous general election pasting. The ideology is everything, unelectability a mere inconvenience. Corbyn himself was pre-set in the generalised way he responded to any question that focused on issues he didn't want to talk about eg Q: Do you condemn anti-Semitism in the Labour Party? A: I am against all forms of racism.

[G B Young]

Nandy the only candidate to put her head above the parapet when it comes to criticising the Corbyn regime:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51752969

I'd vote for her if I had a choice although the whole contest seems almost to have fizzled into irrelevance it's been dragging on so long. Still the best part of a month to go. What more is there to be said?!

[Moulin Yarns]

At least the labour party are actually working towards a new leader, where are the libdems in their replacement for Jo swinson?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-51782054

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Every single time that Corbyn gets up to speak at PMQ, he is embodying the beaten past for the Labour Party. Effective opposition is currently effectively no opposition and once again JC gets the big things wrong because of focusing on the small things. Believing that he is taking a principled stance in not standing down right now is naive and a dereliction of leadership.

[Colr]

Apparently, the ballot is not going smoothly.

Lots of people not receiving their paper/email.

I got mine right at the start but my partner still hasn’t got a ballot yet.

[weecounty hibby]

How can it possibly have taken so long to elect a leader of a party. The longer it goes on the more inept they look as a party. Corbyn still in charge, still doing PMQs. And this is someone who took a complete pumping in the election and had a dreadful credibility rating. It will take the Labour party years to recover from the Corbyn leadership and they are not getting off to a good start

[Colr]

How can it possibly have taken so long to elect a leader of a party. The longer it goes on the more inept they look as a party. Corbyn still in charge, still doing PMQs. And this is someone who took a complete pumping in the election and had a dreadful credibility rating. It will take the Labour party years to recover from the Corbyn leadership and they are not getting off to a good start

I’m wondering why he hasn’t stepped down. Brown and Milliband both did with Harman taking over as interim to oversee the election - which she did very ably.

[Hibbyradge]

I’m wondering why he hasn’t stepped down. Brown and Milliband both did with Harman taking over as interim to oversee the election - which she did very ably.

Who would have deputised?

[Mibbes Aye]

Who would have deputised?

As Tom Watson had stepped down, I think that Emily Thornberry would have got the gig, which is horrendous to think of, but she has deputised at PMQs and holds the shadow for one of the ‘Great Offices of State’. I don’t think McDonnell would think it prudent to have taken on the role, likewise Abbott. 5he problem was that Thornberry put herself forward as a candidate.

The other option would have been to go down the ‘senior statesman’ route - Harriet Harman again or Ed Miliband. I think it would actually have been refreshing to see Miliband challenging Johnson at the despatch box and I think Harman would have skewered him. But the party has its apparatuses and processes, and many of those are locked down by Corbynites and Momentum activists, so there was never a chance of that.

[Hibbyradge]

As Tom Watson had stepped down, I think that Emily Thornberry would have got the gig, which is horrendous to think of, but she has deputised at PMQs and holds the shadow for one of the ‘Great Offices of State’. I don’t think McDonnell would think it prudent to have taken on the role, likewise Abbott. 5he problem was that Thornberry put herself forward as a candidate.

The other option would have been to go down the ‘senior statesman’ route - Harriet Harman again or Ed Miliband. I think it would actually have been refreshing to see Miliband challenging Johnson at the despatch box and I think Harman would have skewered him. But the party has its apparatuses and processes, and many of those are locked down by Corbynites and Momentum activists, so there was never a chance of that.

Exactly. There's no chance the sell out, Blairite neoliberals were going to be given the reigns back, even if it was only for a few months.

[Mibbes Aye]

Exactly. There's no chance the sell out, Blairite neoliberals were going to be given the reigns back, even if it was only for a few months.

Yup, what did they ever do for us apart from three terms in government of progressive social policy........

[weecounty hibby]

Exactly. There's no chance the sell out, Blairite neoliberals were going to be given the reigns back, even if it was only for a few months.

I'm not sure if that was tongue in cheek or not but if not that is the attitude that will keep Labour in opposition for years to come. I'm no Labour supporter and actually didn't really like Blair but by Christ I'd take him any day over the bunch that are in power right now

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not sure if that was tongue in cheek or not but if not that is the attitude that will keep Labour in opposition for years to come. I'm no Labour supporter and actually didn't really like Blair but by Christ I'd take him any day over the bunch that are in power right now

I was being sarcastic.

[weecounty hibby]

I was being sarcastic.

Hard to tell with some of the Labour folk. A smiley to help me out in future would be appreciated 👍

[Hibbyradge]

Hard to tell with some of the Labour folk. A smiley to help me out in future would be appreciated 👍

I thought my words were so dripping with caustic bitterness and sarcasm that my meaning would be obvious.

Now that you've given me cause to read them again, I've realised you're right. Someone in the Labour Party could easily have said that in all seriousness so anyone not knowing my general political stance could have thought I was serious. You have my apologies.

Regarding Tony Blair, in the last 40 years, he's been my favourite PM and by a long, long way.

[Mibbes Aye]

I thought my words were so dripping with caustic bitterness and sarcasm that my meaning would be obvious.

Now that you've given me cause to read them again, I've realised you're right. Someone in the Labour Party could easily have said that in all seriousness so anyone not knowing my general political stance could have thought I was serious. You have my apologies.

Regarding Tony Blair, in the last 40 years, he's been my favourite PM and by a long, long way.

I think in fairness to you and in fairness to WCH’s post it is worth getting into it.

If any of us are or have been a member of the Labour movement, not necessarily a Constituency Labour Party member i.e. the area of the parliamentary seat, then one recognises that it is a broad spectrum. It is a wide and varied bunch of views, rather more so in recent years with Momentum, but always prone to periods of entryism in its history. Cite Militant at this point :greengrin

Generally though, the movement is people united by common goals - social justice, tackling poverty, improving attainment in health and education, addressing inequality - and these common goals can be achieved ina great deal of regard by the power that the state has, through legislation, taxation, benefits and social policy.

Within that, there are very disparate viewpoints. What isn’t in doubt is that from the mid-eighties, Labour has to move massively and with much internal resistance, to make itself electable. It took years and years and also relied on voter fatigue with an eighteen-year Tory administration to get to that point. It seems like Labour has always needed that factor in an innately small-c conservative nation - post-war fatigue for Attlee, long Tory dominance and the lingering shame of Suez for Wilson, and then a Tory party self-inflagrating for Blair.

When Labour has been electable it has done marvellous things.

The achievements under Attlee, the acivevements under Wilson, even the achievements under Callaghan in his limited and constrained time were progressive and ultimately irreversible. The achievements under Blair and Brown in terms of social policy were massive.

Like you say HR, the revisionist cause for the far-leftists will never die away. They won’t stop being furious that Blair won and enacted good policies while their candidates failed at GEs or hustings.

[Ozyhibby]

Just realised today budget response is likely to be delivered by Corbyn. Absolutely useless from Labour.[emoji849]


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[Betty Boop]

Just realised today budget response is likely to be delivered by Corbyn. Absolutely useless from Labour.[emoji849]


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On the contrary a great response from Jezza.

[G B Young]

Just realised today budget response is likely to be delivered by Corbyn. Absolutely useless from Labour.[emoji849]


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It's an irrelevance what Corbyn has to say these days. It's only when I catch a rare sighting of him on TV that I remember he's still Labour leader. The lights may still be on but nobody's listening.

[Mibbes Aye]

Just realised today budget response is likely to be delivered by Corbyn. Absolutely useless from Labour.[emoji849]


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Yes, it is the convention that the LOTO delivers the budget response, for whatever reason.

I was working today and only caught some segments of his response on TV news but he didn't come across as great.

Made worse by Sunak being able to present a budget with an impression of the spending taps being turned on. While a cold analysis by the IFS will be helpful, the Tories can easily spin this in a positive light for now and Corbyn simply isn't able to adequately hold them to account.

[Hibbyradge]

Oh Jeremy Corbyn ...☹️

https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1237828010407088135?s=09

[G B Young]

Caught a glimpse of the lesser spotted Jezza earlier still trying to cling to the punctured liferaft of Corbynism and claiming that the fact the world hasn't got enough ventilators to cope with a global pandemic proves that his scattergun spending election policy was right all along :greengrin

He was, I think, the most useless party leader in my lifetime, but at least he gave me a laugh before he bows out next week.

[Colr]

Tories up 9% Labour down 5%.

Is that what Magic Grandad winning the argument looks like?

[greenlex]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party right there. A knight of the realm as leader.

[Northernhibee]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party these days. A knight of the realm as leader.

Son of a nurse and toolmaker, poorer background than Corbyn. Worked hard to become a barrister and specialised in human rights (unlike Wrong Daily who went into corporate law).

Far more credible than the other candidates and a good result. Momentum crybabies out in force on social media today. When the Tory enablers are upset it can only be a good thing.

[Colr]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party right there. A knight of the realm as leader.

He earned that title.

[Pretty Boy]

Son of a nurse and toolmaker, poorer background than Corbyn. Worked hard to become a barrister and specialised in human rights (unlike Wrong Daily who went into corporate law).

Far more credible than the other candidates and a good result. Momentum crybabies out in force on social media today. When the Tory enablers are upset it can only be a good thing.

Spot on. We can debate the honours system all day but Starmer earned his position.

The suggestion from some seems to be that he should have 'known his place' and stuck to the local polytechnic. No one seems to hate social mobility more than socialists.

[Northernhibee]

Momentum with a horrendous statement about how they’ll hold him to account etc etc etc.

If it was revealed that Momentum was in fact a Tory idea my eyebrow would remain unraised.

[SideBurns]

I'm not a Labour man, but people need an electable Labour party or we'll end up with a repeat (or worse) of the 17 years of Tory rule from 1979. You can be as romantically idealist about a genuine Socialist government all you like, but the reality is the British public won't put a left wing party into power. It was the lesson Labour learned in the 90s, and needs to remember now. I quite like Starmer, he always comes across well and I think he might just have the ability to lead a revival.

[Bostonhibby]

Right appointment for me, if they can squeeze monentum out soon and become an effective representative opposition again I will actively support my party again.

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[G B Young]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party right there. A knight of the realm as leader.

It's that kind of mindset which has seen Labour lose the last four elections. It's not only rich or posh folk who are awarded knighthoods and if you look at Starmer's biography he's deserving of the honour. If anything he's from a significantly less priviliged background than Corbyn yet gets tarred by the Momentum nutjobs as 'too posh' because of the title in front of his name.

[G B Young]

I'm not a Labour man, but people need an electable Labour party or we'll end up with a repeat (or worse) of the 17 years of Tory rule from 1979. You can be as romantically idealist about a genuine Socialist government all you like, but the reality is the British public won't put a left wing party into power. It was the lesson Labour learned in the 90s, and needs to remember now. I quite like Starmer, he always comes across well and I think he might just have the ability to lead a revival.

We'll already be close to 15 years by the time the next election comes around.

Yes, Starmer appears to be the first sensible choice as Labour leader in many years. Remains to be seen if he's actually a good leader of course, but he's already setting the right tone by pledging to work with the government on coronavirus and not to use it as a vehicle for political point scoring. He'll also hopefully have the good sense to steer Labour gently back towards the central ground where they might actually be taken seriously again.

Corbyn, on the other hand, bowed out with a deranged claim that the global pandemic has proved that his policies were right all along. A lesson in how not to take your leave as party leader, if we needed any reminding about his haplessness. Classic far left attempt to portray themselves as the true winners even in the wake of crushing defeat.

[Beefster]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party right there. A knight of the realm as leader.

He’s a ‘knight of the realm’ as a direct result of his work as a barrister and DPP. If that disqualifies someone from being a Leader of the Opposition then we deserve everything we get when we’ve got incompetent twats running the country.

[Colr]

Right appointment for me, if they can squeeze monentum out soon and become an effective representative opposition again I will actively support my party again.

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Johanna Baxter and Gurinder Singh Josan have been chosen to replace Corbynites Navendu Mishra and Claudia Webbe as local party representatives on the NEC.

This is an excellent result. Hopefully, Jennie Formby will be heading for the exit now as well!!

[SideBurns]

We'll already be close to 15 years by the time the next election comes around.

Yes, Starmer appears to be the first sensible choice as Labour leader in many years. Remains to be seen if he's actually a good leader of course, but he's already setting the right tone by pledging to work with the government on coronavirus and not to use it as a vehicle for political point scoring. He'll also hopefully have the good sense to steer Labour gently back towards the central ground where they might actually be taken seriously again.

Corbyn, on the other hand, bowed out with a deranged claim that the global pandemic has proved that his policies were right all along. A lesson in how not to take your leave as party leader, if we needed any reminding about his haplessness. Classic far left attempt to portray themselves as the true winners even in the wake of crushing defeat.

Aye, scary how quickly the years seem to pass as you get older! I'd prefer a more left wing government than the one led by Blair, but the fact is the Labour party can't help the people they represent by languishing in perpetual opposition; especially when the Tories have the sort of majority Corbyn's disastrous leadership handed to them in December.

[Curried]

Will be very interesting see if/how this London lawyer can increase Labours vote share in Scotland.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUy6HpEWkAAuKxU?format=jpg&name=small

[Beefster]

Will be very interesting see if/how this London lawyer can increase Labours vote share in Scotland.

I’m not sure concentrating on how a kid from a working class family managed to get knighted for his professional achievements before becoming a leading politician is much of a strategy fwiw.

[Smartie]

Will be very interesting see if/how this London lawyer can increase Labours vote share in Scotland.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUy6HpEWkAAuKxU?format=jpg&name=small

If Labour’s vote share in Scotland is to increase then it will need the importance of Scotland to the Labour Party to be understood by the London part of the party.

The fact that he’s a lawyer is neither here nor there and during the campaign Starmer seemed to be the most conciliatory towards Scotland and make the least daft comments.

The mentioning of his knighthood and his occupation on this thread demonstrate exactly where the Labour Party have gone wrong. He is a working class lad who has grafted, clearly had ability, been given an opportunity, achieved great things but most importantly wants everyone to be able to do what he’s done.

The sneering at him is disgraceful. The Labour Party have stopped being a party of opportunity and they’ve needed to rectify that situation for some time. Hopefully he’ll do just that. There are many people across the UK who possess his ability but will never get opportunities under the Tories, and Tories are all we’ll ever get whilst Momentum hold the influence they do.

[Kato]

The sneering at him is disgraceful. The Labour Party have stopped being a party of opportunity and they’ve needed to rectify that situation for some time. Hopefully he’ll do just that. There are many people across the UK who possess his ability but will never get opportunities under the Tories,.

Very well put. I'm unsure as to whether the calibre of person or politician exists in Scottish Labour for them to have a resurgence but that could be said for the SNP 16-20 years ago.

If the new labour leader wants to engineer a genuinely effective Scottish Labour Party there a mass of deadwood to get rid of in personnel and attitudes.

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[Bristolhibby]

Aye, scary how quickly the years seem to pass as you get older! I'd prefer a more left wing government than the one led by Blair, but the fact is the Labour party can't help the people they represent by languishing in perpetual opposition; especially when the Tories have the sort of majority Corbyn's disastrous leadership handed to them in December.

This. The saying “don’t let the best get in the way of acceptable”, springs to mind. No use hanging onto principles that the British public are not interested in.

Labour will do no good if they languish in Opposition with “great principles” while the gaslighting Tories have a clear reign post COVID to dismantle the state.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Very well put. I'm unsure as to whether the calibre of person or politician exists in Scottish Labour for them to have a resurgence but that could be said for the SNP 16-20 years ago.

If the new labour leader wants to engineer a genuinely effective Scottish Labour Party there a mass of deadwood to get rid of in personnel and attitudes.

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Here’s a wild idea.

Embrace Independence.

Labour would surge!

Think long term. If I’m English Labour, how can I bring the Right Wing Brexiteers round to my way of thinking. Maybe having a successful Left leaning country on our Northern border.

J

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Will be very interesting see if/how this London lawyer can increase Labours vote share in Scotland.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUy6HpEWkAAuKxU?format=jpg&name=small

A smart Glasgow lawyer and a middle class, well heeled oil economist didn't do too badly for their party?

[Pretty Boy]

Solid start from him on Marr this morning.

No one could accuse him of being 'out leftied' with his comments on key workers and who and what the economy has to prioritise in future.

"They were last and now they've got to be first."

"I think it is inevitable that we have to ask those that have more to pay more," he said.

"When we are through there is going to have to be a reckoning, we are going to have to do things differently."

Also clear he will be asking questions about and pushing for an exit strategy. Stated he will support the government were appropriate, won't oppose for opposings sake but will ask difficult questions to hold them to account.

[JeMeSouviens]

If Labour’s vote share in Scotland is to increase then it will need the importance of Scotland to the Labour Party to be understood by the London part of the party.

The fact that he’s a lawyer is neither here nor there and during the campaign Starmer seemed to be the most conciliatory towards Scotland and make the least daft comments.

The mentioning of his knighthood and his occupation on this thread demonstrate exactly where the Labour Party have gone wrong. He is a working class lad who has grafted, clearly had ability, been given an opportunity, achieved great things but most importantly wants everyone to be able to do what he’s done.

The sneering at him is disgraceful. The Labour Party have stopped being a party of opportunity and they’ve needed to rectify that situation for some time. Hopefully he’ll do just that. There are many people across the UK who possess his ability but will never get opportunities under the Tories, and Tories are all we’ll ever get whilst Momentum hold the influence they do.

A meme came past me this morning trying to blame him for Jimmy Savile! FFS!

[Northernhibee]

A meme came past me this morning trying to blame him for Jimmy Savile! FFS!

Trending on Twitter. Sadly that's the sort of thing, however untrue it may be, that will stick with certain voters.

What people should be asking themselves is; if Rees-Mogg is profiting from Brexit and also profiting from Coronavirus, why do you think he cares about the money in you and your families pockets?

Deflection by any means necessary.

[heretoday]

Sir Keir Starmer is elected leader. Everything that is wrong with the party right there. A knight of the realm as leader.

That's enough of that "commie" talk, thank you.

[Colr]

That's enough of that "commie" talk, thank you.

Working class people! Know your limits!! Stay in your place!!

[Colr]

Good to see some diversity will be guaranteed with at least one ginger on the front bench.

The Tories have no gingers at all. Racist *******s!!

[lucky]

I think it’s a good result for the party and country. Labour needed a leader who is credible. He at least acts and talks like a leader of a political party rather than a protest movement. Momentum will eventually learn most people grow out of student politics. I’d rather have a party that delivers 50% on a radical agenda in government than a party always in opposition and delivers nothing

[grunt]

I think it’s a good result for the party and country. Labour needed a leader who is credible. He at least acts and talks like a leader of a political party rather than a protest movement. Momentum will eventually learn most people grow out of student politics. I’d rather have a party that delivers 50% on a radical agenda in government than a party always in opposition and delivers nothingVery good points. :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

Strong initial start from Starmer with the appointments to the ‘great offices of state’ plus Ashworth at Health. Game on.

[Northernhibee]

I was delighted that Nandy got a seat in the shadow cabinet as she's very impressive, and equally impressed that he's not given Long-Bailey a place in it to appease the Corbynites. If he can show that the lunatic element to Labour don't have his ear then he'll be able to make inroads into the north of England.

[HibernianJK]

https://ia601500.us.archive.org/11/items/theworkofthelabourpartysgovernanceandlegalunitinre lationtoantisemitism201420192020/The%20Work%20of%20the%20Labour%20Party%E2%80%99s%2 0Governance%20and%20Legal%20Unit%20in%20Relation%2 0to%20Antisemitism%2C%202014%20-%202019%20%282020%29.pdf

Hopefully the link works. Surprised not to see anything regarding this even with all the COVID-19 talk. It’s absolutely shocking having seen many extracts from this as to what went on. Institutional bullying, racism, sexism and could well say corporate sabotage from a select group within the Labour Party hierarchy leading up to the 2017 election. Groups actively angry and disappointed at how well Labour did. There are many many people who come out of this very badly. The 2017 election may well have went differently if it weren’t for these people and yet I don’t see much national coverage on it.

I always heard about how it was the nasty Labour left who were the bullies. However they are the ones who come out of this the best.

[G B Young]

https://ia601500.us.archive.org/11/items/theworkofthelabourpartysgovernanceandlegalunitinre lationtoantisemitism201420192020/The%20Work%20of%20the%20Labour%20Party%E2%80%99s%2 0Governance%20and%20Legal%20Unit%20in%20Relation%2 0to%20Antisemitism%2C%202014%20-%202019%20%282020%29.pdf

Hopefully the link works. Surprised not to see anything regarding this even with all the COVID-19 talk. It’s absolutely shocking having seen many extracts from this as to what went on. Institutional bullying, racism, sexism and could well say corporate sabotage from a select group within the Labour Party hierarchy leading up to the 2017 election. Groups actively angry and disappointed at how well Labour did. There are many many people who come out of this very badly. The 2017 election may well have went differently if it weren’t for these people and yet I don’t see much national coverage on it.

I always heard about how it was the nasty Labour left who were the bullies. However they are the ones who come out of this the best.

Haven't read it, but is there an indication of who actually compiled it or how objective it is? I note that the Labour Party's lawyers have advised against submitting it to the EHRC, which to me indicates its something pulled together by accolytes of the blessed Jeremy to paint Corbyn in a more sympathetic light.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antisemitism-smear-campaign-by-corbyn-allies-n0lmgcx2x

I'd be minded to wait for the EHRC investigation to be completed before lending too much credence to this.

[HibernianJK]

Haven't read it, but is there an indication of who actually compiled it or how objective it is? I note that the Labour Party's lawyers have advised against submitting it to the EHRC, which to me indicates its something pulled together by accolytes of the blessed Jeremy to paint Corbyn in a more sympathetic light.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antisemitism-smear-campaign-by-corbyn-allies-n0lmgcx2x

I'd be minded to wait for the EHRC investigation to be completed before lending too much credence to this.

Have you read any of the WhatsApp messages that have been quoted in the report? They are disgusting. I don’t really care who pulled it together after reading them.

[G B Young]

Have you read any of the WhatsApp messages that have been quoted in the report? They are disgusting. I don’t really care who pulled it together after reading them.

I've read through a couple of media reports which quote some of the messages, but they don't really mean a lot when they're so subjective (ie only the ones critical of Corbyn are included). Who's to say how vile the messages from the other side of the Labour divide were? Has all the hallmarks of a badly managed smear campaign and seems especially petty in the current climate.

I think the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism probably sum up pretty accurately what's behind this:

The organisation's chief executive, Gideon Falter, said: "In the dying days of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, the Labour Party appears to have invested in a desperate last-ditch attempt to deflect and discredit allegations of anti-Semitism.
"Rather than properly dealing with cases of anti-Semitism and the culture of anti-Jewish racism that prevailed during Mr Corbyn's tenure, the party has instead busied itself trawling through 10,000 of its own officials' e-mails and WhatsApp messages in an attempt to imagine a vast anti-Corbyn conspiracy and to continue its effort to smear whistleblowers."

[wookie70]

They are back to being Tory lite so will never get my vote again. I will now vote SNP or the leading nationalist 0arty for the remainder of my life or until independence, whatever comes soonest. Corbyn was Labours last hope imo. May well be the last good person we see in charge of labour

[marinello59]

They are back to being Tory lite so will never get my vote again. I will now vote SNP or the leading nationalist 0arty for the remainder of my life or until independence, whatever comes soonest. Corbyn was Labours last hope imo. May well be the last good person we see in charge of labour

They will still be well to the left of the SNP. I’ve supported Independence my whole adult life but when this crisis is all over we may well have a very different question to deal with which will require a very different answer. Nothing is ever going to be the same again.

[Ozyhibby]

Still no meaningful opposition from Labour? Is Starmer just going to sit this crisis out? Govt failing badly and not a peep from him.


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[lapsedhibee]

Still no meaningful opposition from Labour? Is Starmer just going to sit this crisis out? Govt failing badly and not a peep from him.


Probably understands that if he doesn't tiptoe around everything at the moment he'll get absolutely slaughtered by the usual suspects for being unpatriotic etc.

[Ozyhibby]

Probably understands that if he doesn't tiptoe around everything at the moment he'll get absolutely slaughtered by the usual suspects for being unpatriotic etc.

The patriotic thing to do is hold this failing govt to account.


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[hibsbollah]

Still no meaningful opposition from Labour? Is Starmer just going to sit this crisis out? Govt failing badly and not a peep from him.


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On Wednesday he was on a tour of all the major networks demanding the government come up with an exit strategy and move quicker on testing. It was hard to miss.

[Ozyhibby]

On Wednesday he was on a tour of all the major networks demanding the government come up with an exit strategy and move quicker on testing. It was hard to miss.

Did he have a day off yesterday?


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[Hibbyradge]

Did he have a day off yesterday?


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I don't think this crisis is ending anytime soon.

A measured response is what's required, not a knee jerk which would allow the Tories to move the focus into the Labour Party.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think this crisis is ending anytime soon.

A measured response is what's required, not a knee jerk which would allow the Tories to move the focus into the Labour Party.

Not sure I’m keen on a guy who wants to just wait and see how it all pans out.


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[hibsbollah]

Not sure I’m keen on a guy who wants to just wait and see how it all pans out.


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You're asking what he was doing yesterday, when he was making multiple speeches on the Govt response 48 hours ago. No opposition leader is on the networks every day. It wouldn't be welcome. I think you're being a bit silly here.

[Beefster]

Did he have a day off yesterday?


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So your real assertion is that, by not appearing in the media or press that you saw yesterday, ‘he’s sitting the crisis out’ and that we haven’t heard ‘a peep’ from him?

It might be easier just to admit that you were wrong. It’s hard enough watching the politicians in charge of both governments every day without having to watch opposition politicians just oppose or pontificate on a daily basis for the sake of it.

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure I’m keen on a guy who wants to just wait and see how it all pans out.


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Of course, that's what he's doing.

You've taken against him for whatever reason and there's nothing anyone can say that will change that.

Fair enough, but you've got nothing left to offer the discussion in that case.

[wookie70]

They will still be well to the left of the SNP. I’ve supported Independence my whole adult life but when this crisis is all over we may well have a very different question to deal with which will require a very different answer. Nothing is ever going to be the same again.

I'll swallow voting for them to get Independence then hopefully a progressive party with Corbyn like policies will take Scotland forward.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/coronavirus-deaths-labour-criticise-government-starmer?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Will they listen?


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[Ozyhibby]

Decent showing by Starmer today. Needs to be on the TV more often keeping up the pressure. His front bench team need to be doing the same.


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Three weeks in and he is showing more leadership than Corbyn did during his entire tenure.

[Berwickhibby]

Three weeks in and he is showing more leadership than Corbyn did during his entire tenure.

:aok: totally agree

[lapsedhibee]

Three weeks in and he is showing more leadership than Corbyn did during his entire tenure.

He's so much quicker on his feet than Corbyn in the HoC. At last there's a chance that Johnson won't get away with deflecting and spraffing Latin at PMQs.

[SideBurns]

He's just a more impressive figure in the public arena. Part of Corbyn's problem was that at times he was making important points, but wasn't very good at articulating them. I can understand how, initially, his left wing credentials caught fire amongst Labour supporters who saw a chance to return to genuine socialism, but Corbyn personally, and much of what he stood for, was unelectable.

I'm reminded of the 1983 election, when The Sun put a picture of Michael Foot in a donkey jacket on its front page with a headline something like 'Do you want this man to be Prime Minister?'. He might well have been a great PM, but it was too easy for the influential Tory tabloids to portray him as a shambolic character, and we were subjected to another 4 years of Thatcherism.

[Curried]

Excellent start for Sir Keir.

I’m sure Ricky and Jackie will do their best to ensure Ian and the Red Tories’ of Morningside keep the last red flag flying in Scotchland for a few remaining months.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/resources/images/11327757.png?type=article-full

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1256263269905510402

[lapsedhibee]

Ricky and Jackie

Weren't they 'Francie & Josie' about 100 years ago? Golly that act was unfunny.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Composed and to the point showing at PMQ by Starmer today. Simple straight forwards fact based questions holding the government to account, rather than trying to wage class war every day.

[Ozyhibby]

Composed and to the point showing at PMQ by Starmer today. Simple straight forwards fact based questions holding the government to account, rather than trying to wage class war every day.

He’s v good at PMQ’s so far. Just needs to be on TV a bit more.


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[lapsedhibee]

Composed and to the point showing at PMQ by Starmer today. Simple straight forwards fact based questions holding the government to account, rather than trying to wage class war every day.

Yes, I thought he perhaps unnerved Johnson into announcing a new testing target without necessarily having planned to do that yesterday (though it might equally well have been scripted by Cummings to ramp up a numbers furore, as having the electorate arguing about numbers is apparently Cummings' favourite tactic to distract it from focusing on anything else). Johnson's wifflewaffle and airjabbing doesn't really work without the braying mob behind him, and over the next weeks and months Starmer's going to show him up for the thin politician he is. Fat *******, but thin politician.

[Curried]

“What can we do to ensure that we exit lockdown as One United Kingdom just as we entered it” - Sir Keir Starmer’s question to the PM today (11/5/20).

No wonder labour is deed in Scotland….what a complete tool.

[Hibrandenburg]

From what I've seen of him he's been very impressive and has a statesmanlike air about him. First impression is he'd make a good Prime Minister and could even help Scottish labour win back some seats. However that would be as always merely temporary until the next Anglocentric buffoon is forced upon us.

[jonty]

Finally it seems, a worthy leader of the opposition



Ian Dunt @IanDunt
17m

Starmer doing quite significant damage to Johnson over his record on care homes right now parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/c2…

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
7m

That was brutal. Each question valid and specific. No credible answer to any of them.
Ian Dunt
@IanDunt

It's quite clear - you could have predicted it months ago - what the Starmer/Johnson dynamic will be: lawyerly specifics vs broad-brushstroke warbling. That'll do for those disposed to support Johnson anyway. But it will not for those who are not.

[Pretty Boy]

Finally it seems, a worthy leader of the opposition

He absolutely destroyed Johnson there. Without the baying toffs behind him his bluster is shown up for what it is.

It was clinical from Starmer. No shouting or drama just clinical with clear arguments and facts to hand to back it up.

[Peevemor]

He absolutely destroyed Johnson there. Without the baying toffs behind him his bluster is shown up for what it is.

It was clinical from Starmer. No shouting or drama just clinical with clear arguments and facts to hand to back it up.As I said before, I have never voted Labour but I'm happy Starmer got the job. Britain needs a strong Labour Party.

[SideBurns]

As I said before, I have never voted Labour but I'm happy Starmer got the job. Britain needs a strong Labour Party.

This is precisely my position.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Finally it seems, a worthy leader of the opposition

Noted that The Sun don't like the way that their man is being held to account.

[G B Young]

A noteable step on the long road back to mainstream appeal for Labour as Momentum inevitably starts to collapse in on itself post-Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52694053

And with the blessed Jeremy having now returned to backbench obscurity it's his brother who's making the news, getting arrested at an anti-lockdown protest:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52693383/coronavirus-jeremy-corbyn-s-brother-arrested-at-anti-lockdown-protest-in-london

[Pretty Boy]

A noteable step on the long road back to mainstream appeal for Labour as Momentum inevitably starts to collapse in on itself post-Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52694053

And with the blessed Jeremy having now returned to backbench obscurity it's his brother who's making the news, getting arrested at an anti-lockdown protest:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52693383/coronavirus-jeremy-corbyn-s-brother-arrested-at-anti-lockdown-protest-in-london

Piers Corbyn has been a fairly prominent climate change denier for some time. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest to see him involved in this kind of nonsense. He manages the rare trick of appealing to the lunatic extremes of both the left and the right depending on the topic.

[Pete]

A noteable step on the long road back to mainstream appeal for Labour as Momentum inevitably starts to collapse in on itself post-Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52694053

And with the blessed Jeremy having now returned to backbench obscurity it's his brother who's making the news, getting arrested at an anti-lockdown protest:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52693383/coronavirus-jeremy-corbyn-s-brother-arrested-at-anti-lockdown-protest-in-london

This post is poor on almost every level.

We can start wherever you want.

[Future17]

I don't think Richard Leonard actually knows why he's criticising this guy:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52690635

[HibernianJK]

I don't think Richard Leonard actually knows why he's criticising this guy:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52690635

Strange article. It’s as if Leonard is desperate to find someone breaching rules. It’s hardly unnecessary travel.

[Tomsk]

Strange article. It’s as if Leonard is desperate to find someone breaching rules. It’s hardly unnecessary travel.

Leonard, and by extension the party, continues to struggle for relevance and attention in post-referendum Scotland. The modest gains the party briefly enjoyed after May's election were swept away in a tide of anti-Boris/anti-Brexit protest in December. Leonard is only the latest in a long line of incompetent leaders in Scotland, each implausibly but actually worse than the previous one. Until Labour finds someone with energy, charisma, conviction, ideas and a bit of courage they will remain what they've become, irrelevant, background noise.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8327255/Man-people-New-Labour-leader-Sir-Keir-owns-seven-acres-land-Surrey-worth-10m.html

This story is wonderfully desperate.

He bought a field behind his parents house so they could keep rescue donkeys. The *******.

[marinello59]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8327255/Man-people-New-Labour-leader-Sir-Keir-owns-seven-acres-land-Surrey-worth-10m.html

This story is wonderfully desperate.

He bought a field behind his parents house so they could keep rescue donkeys. The *******.

A sign of just how effective he has proved against their man Boris already. He should take this type of crap as a compliment.

[Future17]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8327255/Man-people-New-Labour-leader-Sir-Keir-owns-seven-acres-land-Surrey-worth-10m.html

This story is wonderfully desperate.

He bought a field behind his parents house so they could keep rescue donkeys. The *******.


A sign of just how effective he has proved against their man Boris already. He should take this type of crap as a compliment.

If the DM dislikes him, he's in with a shout of getting my vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

A sign of just how effective he has proved against their man Boris already. He should take this type of crap as a compliment.

For sure. That is about as ugly and poor an article that you could ever wish to see. If I was pro-Boris I would be ashamed of that. Even Cummings can’t think that sort of spiel works.

[JimBHibees]

I don't think Richard Leonard actually knows why he's criticising this guy:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52690635

Why is he criticising him when it indicates travel was work related? Very odd

[G B Young]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8327255/Man-people-New-Labour-leader-Sir-Keir-owns-seven-acres-land-Surrey-worth-10m.html

This story is wonderfully desperate.

He bought a field behind his parents house so they could keep rescue donkeys. The *******.

I'd actually have thought the Mail wouldn't mind Starmer too much with him being a peer of the realm. As you say, that's really poor stuff.

[G B Young]

Leonard, and by extension the party, continues to struggle for relevance and attention in post-referendum Scotland. The modest gains the party briefly enjoyed after May's election were swept away in a tide of anti-Boris/anti-Brexit protest in December. Leonard is only the latest in a long line of incompetent leaders in Scotland, each implausibly but actually worse than the previous one. Until Labour finds someone with energy, charisma, conviction, ideas and a bit of courage they will remain what they've become, irrelevant, background noise.

More likely the handful of Labour seats were so quickly lost again due to anti-Corbyn sentiment. The anti-Brexit vote will certainly have accounted for the Tories losing over half their Scottish MPs though.

You're right about Scottish Labour and Leonard.. An ongoing irrelevance and I'd be amazed if Starmer doesn't make some serious moves to address the issue over the next few years as Labour will remain unelectable if they can't rekindle support in Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

First signs that KS is turning the tide?

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 47% (-3)
LAB: 35% (+4)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
GRN: 3% (-2)

via
@RedfieldWilton, 15 May
Chgs. w/ 06 May


Must confess I'd never heard of Redfield Wilton but they are British Polling Council accredited so it should be kosher enough.

[lapsedhibee]

I'd actually have thought the Mail wouldn't mind Starmer too much with him being a peer of the realm As you say, that's really poor stuff.

Is he?

[Berwickhibby]

I'd actually have thought the Mail wouldn't mind Starmer too much with him being a peer of the realm. As you say, that's really poor stuff.

He is only a peer as it came with the job, like the commissioner of the Met and a Lt General in the army....he has no seat in the Lords

[G B Young]

Is he?


My mistake. I'm not actually au fait with the terminology here but I'm guessing that having been knighted he's a knight of the realm rather than a peer (ie a lord)?

[lapsedhibee]

He is only a peer as it came with the job like the commissioner of the Met and a Lt General in the army....he has no seat in the Lords
What? :dunno:

[Berwickhibby]

What? :dunno:

It's a title granted to every head of the DPP

[lapsedhibee]

It's a title granted to every head of the DPP

What title? Are you talking about his knighthood, or something else? :dunno:

[Berwickhibby]

What title? Are you talking about his knighthood, or something else? :dunno:

Yes...got it for being head of DPP.... New Years honour.... if memory is correct head of DPP always get a title or gong of some sort... he was not born titled is my point

[lapsedhibee]

My mistake. I'm not actually au fait with the terminology here but I'm guessing that having been knighted he's a knight of the realm rather than a peer (ie a lord)?

Exactly. He's a knight, not a peer. He no more gets to sit in the HoL than David Gray.

[Berwickhibby]

Exactly. He's a knight, not a peer. He no more gets to sit in the HoL than David Gray.

My terminology was also wrong...he is not a peer but a knight/Sir, I did know he did not have a seat in the Lords

[Mibbes Aye]

Exactly. He's a knight, not a peer. He no more gets to sit in the HoL than David Gray.

If anyone decides to stop David Gray sitting in the House of Lords, I swear I’ll do time.

[Ozyhibby]

Impressive days work from Starmer yesterday, getting two govt climb downs. [emoji106]


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[Berwickhibby]

Impressive days work from Starmer yesterday, getting two govt climb downs. [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He will get my vote at next General Election

[SHODAN]

First signs that KS is turning the tide?

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 47% (-3)
LAB: 35% (+4)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
GRN: 3% (-2)

via
@RedfieldWilton, 15 May
Chgs. w/ 06 May


Must confess I'd never heard of Redfield Wilton but they are British Polling Council accredited so it should be kosher enough.

My worry is we now have an extremely large "solid Conservative" voting group of around 40% of the population who will vote Tory irregardless from now on. Labour's voting base is far more volatile.

[Ozyhibby]

My worry is we now have an extremely large "solid Conservative" voting group of around 40% of the population who will vote Tory irregardless from now on. Labour's voting base is far more volatile.

The level of unemployment and the depth of recession we are about to head into means that nothing can be taken for granted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

My worry is we now have an extremely large "solid Conservative" voting group of around 40% of the population who will vote Tory irregardless from now on. Labour's voting base is far more volatile.

It would be a great help if the Lib Dems packed up their tents and admitted they're a lost cause. I mean, it's not even like they offer anything distinctively liberal and haven't for ages. They're just an anachronism that refuses to completely die and gives the Tories that wee boost.

[grunt]

The level of unemployment and the depth of recession we are about to head into means that nothing can be taken for granted.
And Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder how all the Corbyn fans on here and elsewhere feel knowing that they more than anything else helped deliver this Johnson govt? Especially when they see Starmer perform at the dispatch box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

I wonder how all the Corbyn fans on here and elsewhere feel knowing that they more than anything else helped deliver this Johnson govt? Especially when they see Starmer perform at the dispatch box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A trained chimpanzee would destroy Boris at
the Dispatch box

[JeMeSouviens]

A trained chimpanzee would destroy Boris at
the Dispatch box

Yeah, I think that was his point ;-)

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I think that was his point ;-)

[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I wonder how all the Corbyn fans on here and elsewhere feel knowing that they more than anything else helped deliver this Johnson govt? Especially when they see Starmer perform at the dispatch box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What a stupid piece of analysis. The people that voted Tory ‘delivered’ the Johnson government


Anyone genuinely interested in delivering a future Labour government should follow Keir Starmers message throughout his election campaign that factionalism must stop. On a personal level I am massively enthused by the green new deal policy relaunch the other day, as well as his performance at PMQs (although The Guardian called yesterday ‘a draw’, I thought it was anything but).

Boris is clearly irritated by his good press, hence the ironic jibe he made about ‘forensic’ Starmer.

[Hibbyradge]

A trained chimpanzee would destroy Boris at
the Dispatch box

Corbyn couldn't...

[lapsedhibee]

On a personal level I am massively enthused by the green new deal policy relaunch the other day, as well as his performance at PMQs (although The Guardian called yesterday ‘a draw’, I thought it was anything but).

Boris is clearly irritated by his good press, hence the ironic jibe he made about ‘forensic’ Starmer.


I was expecting a draw in the Monty Python sense, but as it turned out there wasn't really any blood. Whenever that haappens between those two, it probably counts as a moral victory for Johnson.

[hibsbollah]

I was expecting a draw in the Monty Python sense, but as it turned out there wasn't really any blood. Whenever that haappens between those two, it probably counts as a moral victory for Johnson.

By putting his first four (I think) questions on the surcharge on migrant workers in the NHS, he’s clearly identifying himself with opposing a policy that is massively stupid, massively unpopular and which has shown up the hypocrisy of the PM. There’s a strong possibility that the Tories will have to make a U turn on this, or at least put additional financial measures in to help these people. If this happens, Starmer will be seen to have forced the U turn. Of course, Blackford got weighed in too.

[lapsedhibee]

By putting his first four (I think) questions on the surcharge on migrant workers in the NHS, he’s clearly identifying himself with opposing a policy that is massively stupid, massively unpopular and which has shown up the hypocrisy of the PM. There’s a strong possibility that the Tories will have to make a U turn on this, or at least put additional financial measures in to help these people. If this happens, Starmer will be seen to have forced the U turn. Of course, Blackford got weighed in too.

In addition to which, Johnson misled about how much money the surcharge raised for the NHS. Great tactic to have Hancock sledging Starmer though. :faf:

[Tomsk]

By putting his first four (I think) questions on the surcharge on migrant workers in the NHS, he’s clearly identifying himself with opposing a policy that is massively stupid, massively unpopular and which has shown up the hypocrisy of the PM. There’s a strong possibility that the Tories will have to make a U turn on this, or at least put additional financial measures in to help these people. If this happens, Starmer will be seen to have forced the U turn. Of course, Blackford got weighed in too.

U-turn complete. Surcharge for both NHS and care workers lifted.

Good start by Starmer. He's thrown a six and is on the board. I am genuinely encouraged.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/bf4aca9ba09035fbb96a9354644b6b75.plist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/bf4aca9ba09035fbb96a9354644b6b75.plist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:aok: well done Sir Keir

[hibsbollah]

:faf: I’m quite pleased with that prediction. Boris clearly read my post and shat his pants and U turned sometime within half an hour of me posting.

[Bristolhibby]

What a stupid piece of analysis. The people that voted Tory ‘delivered’ the Johnson government


Anyone genuinely interested in delivering a future Labour government should follow Keir Starmers message throughout his election campaign that factionalism must stop. On a personal level I am massively enthused by the green new deal policy relaunch the other day, as well as his performance at PMQs (although The Guardian called yesterday ‘a draw’, I thought it was anything but).

Boris is clearly irritated by his good press, hence the ironic jibe he made about ‘forensic’ Starmer.

It’s always been a problem with the “Left”. Infighting, factions and cronyism.

The “Right” always finds it easier to unite around a single focal point and to hold their nose better.

Acceptable being the enemy of perfect.

Spanish Civil war being a perfect example.

J

[Bristolhibby]

My worry is we now have an extremely large "solid Conservative" voting group of around 40% of the population who will vote Tory irregardless from now on. Labour's voting base is far more volatile.

Then you will have guys like this dude.

https://twitter.com/dominiquetaegon/status/1262776339645562880?s=21

[G B Young]

Corbyn couldn't...

He couldn't even get the better of May.

[BroxburnHibee]

U-turn complete. Surcharge for both NHS and care workers lifted.

Good start by Starmer. He's thrown a six and is on the board. I am genuinely encouraged.

Amazing what a functioning opposition can achieve.

[stantonhibby]

Amazing what a functioning opposition can achieve.

Very true!

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah, I think that was his point ;-)

That made me laugh.

[CropleyWasGod]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else. It was tucked away on Page 10 of the Sunday Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/report-blames-scottish-labours-failure-on-brexit-corbyn-and-backing-the-union-5mg7zd5rr

[hibsbollah]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else. It was tucked away on Page 10 of the Sunday Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/report-blames-scottish-labours-failure-on-brexit-corbyn-and-backing-the-union-5mg7zd5rr

In the last three Westminster elections;

2010: Labour 41 seats, SNP 6.
2015: Labour 1 SNP 56.
2019: Labour 1 SNP 46.

The 2015 cataclysm preceded both Corbyn and Brexit, so that analysis is lacking historical perspective.