The future of the Labour Party

[Hibbyradge]

So in that case patently obvious why Corbyn isn’t going for an election prior to the 31st October.

J

And why Johnson us desperate to do so.

[Bristolhibby]

And why Johnson us desperate to do so.

The opposition are waking up to what I’ve thought my entire life.

Whatever the Tories want. Do the opposite.

An opposition that is finally opposing.

Shame he didn’t do that with Article 50.

J

[Hibbyradge]

The opposition are waking up to what I’ve thought my entire life.

Whatever the Tories want. Do the opposite.

An opposition that is finally opposing.

Shame he didn’t do that with Article 50.

J

https://youtu.be/pBmuIHfFWdM
https://youtu.be/pBmuIHfFWdM

[Colr]

So in that case patently obvious why Corbyn isn’t going for an election prior to the 31st October.

J

Neck and neck?

[G B Young]

Must be a rare event for a Labour MP to join a Tory government, but MP John Mann has quit Labour to become the government's anti-Semitism csar:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mp-john-mann-quits-to-become-government-anti-semitism-tsar-hlrwb66z5

He fair puts the boot into Corbyn, who won't be wanting the anti-Semitism issue to return to the headlines just as he's trying to convince the electorate he's actually electable.

[G B Young]

Must be a rare event for a Labour MP to join a Tory government, but MP John Mann has quit Labour to become the government's anti-Semitism csar:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mp-john-mann-quits-to-become-government-anti-semitism-tsar-hlrwb66z5

He fair puts the boot into Corbyn, who won't be wanting the anti-Semitism issue to return to the headlines just as he's trying to convince the electorate he's actually electable.

From his resignation letter: "Anyone who has knocked on doors in Bassetlaw knows there is only one obstacle to winning what should be a landslide at the election and that obstacle is Jeremy Corbyn. I have therefore asked him to resign in order to let the party win power."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ED8MUaUWsAAjIuK.jpg:large

[ballengeich]

Must be a rare event for a Labour MP to join a Tory government, but MP John Mann has quit Labour to become the government's anti-Semitism csar:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mp-john-mann-quits-to-become-government-anti-semitism-tsar-hlrwb66z5

He fair puts the boot into Corbyn, who won't be wanting the anti-Semitism issue to return to the headlines just as he's trying to convince the electorate he's actually electable.

Given Russian history there's something ironic about the concept anti-Semitism czar.

However, you're right about it being something Corbyn hasn't adequately addressed.

[Colr]

Given Russian history there's something ironic about the concept anti-Semitism czar.

However, you're right about it being something Corbyn hasn't adequately addressed.

May God bless the Tzar and keep him.........far away from us!!

[Andy Bee]

Where McDonnell’s policy on rental housing goes if he is allowed into power. Berlin has already started down this road.
https://capx.co/illiberal-and-economically-illiterate-germanys-new-housing-policy/



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I watched him on the Andrew Marr show yesterday and he confirmed he'd bring in the right to buy for private landlord tenants, I realise it's probably a contentious issue but that's worrying. There's plenty normal working class people who have invested in a rental property instead of putting everything into a pension.

[marinello59]

I watched him on the Andrew Marr show yesterday and he confirmed he'd bring in the right to buy for private landlord tenants, I realise it's probably a contentious issue but that's worrying. There's plenty normal working class people who have invested in a rental property instead of putting everything into a pension.

I’d hazard a guess that there aren’t plenty of ‘normal working class people’ who have built up a portfolio of properties to live off though. And I’m not so sure that having one property would be a better investment than putting the money in to a pension fund given the tax incentives available.

[Ozyhibby]

I’d hazard a guess that there aren’t plenty of ‘normal working class people’ who have built up a portfolio of properties to live off though. And I’m not so sure that having one property would be a better investment than putting the money in to a pension fund given the tax incentives available.

Lots of self employed people don’t have access to company pension funds etc so have invested in a buy to let flat for their pension. And they are normal working class people. I know because I am one.
Whether it’s better or worse than a pension fund isn’t really the point.


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[marinello59]

Lots of self employed people don’t have access to company pension funds etc so have invested in a buy to let flat for their pension. And they are normal working class people. I know because I am one.
Whether it’s better or worse than a pension fund isn’t really the point.


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So the typical private let landlord is an ordinary working class person?

[Hibbyradge]

So the typical private let landlord is an ordinary working class person?

I don't know what the typical landlord is, but I have a flat I rent out in Edinburgh and literally millions of people have buy to let mortgages.

I know an ex-police officer who has 9 houses he rents out on the same basis. His only risk is not finding tenants to pay the mortgage etc. It's a fairly straightforward way to provide for your future.

[marinello59]

I don't know what the typical landlord is, but I have a flat I rent out in Edinburgh and literally millions of people have buy to let mortgages.

I know an ex-police officer who has 9 houses he rents out on the same basis. His only risk is not finding tenants to pay the mortgage etc. It's a fairly straightforward way to provide for your future.

With nine properties he isn't a normal working class punter is he? He's a capitalist. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

The ones I know are. There are likely plenty wealthy people as well. If people private property is not safe from the state, how do you think investment in the UK is going to go?
Should I have to sell my flat to my tenant at a discount? I don’t have a pension in place so is it fair that I would have to rely on the state pension?


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[Ozyhibby]

With nine properties he isn't a normal working class punter is he? He's a capitalist. :greengrin

If he was a police officer then he is very much working class.


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[Hibbyradge]

With nine properties he isn't a normal working class punter is he? He's a capitalist. :greengrin

Aren't we all? :wink:

[Peevemor]

If he was a police officer then he is very much working class.


I've known a few who weren't (not their family background in any case).

[Hibbyradge]

I've known a few who weren't (not their family background in any case).

I'm sure there are people of different classes in the police service.

My point is that there are loads of working class folk who are landlords and that guy, a member at Turnhouse Golf Club, is one of them.

[marinello59]

If he was a police officer then he is very much working class.


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If he owns nine properties and it provides an income then how can he be ''very much working class''? He's living off capital.

[Ozyhibby]

If he owns nine properties and it provides an income then how can he be ''very much working class''? He's living off capital.

So is everyone with a private pension as well then. Should they be forced to sell them at a discount as well?


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[marinello59]

So is everyone with a private pension as well then. Should they be forced to sell them at a discount as well?


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That's ridiculous.

Trying to portray this as an attack on working class people is interesting but perhaps we should start by defining what working class means these days? Because I know my parents did well to keep one property going let alone have the means to own nine.

[Ozyhibby]

That's ridiculous.

Trying to portray this as an attack on working class people is interesting but perhaps we should start by defining what working class means these days? Because I know my parents did well to keep one property going let alone have the means to own nine.

I’m a former joiner then taxi driver. Working class enough? Every penny I used to buy the property was borrowed and it was loss making for 10 years. I supported it through my wages. Now it is starting to give a small annual return but the real benefit won’t come until the mortgage has been paid off. It will then give me a small income towards my pension. After 8 years of owning it, it was still in negative equity but has now recovered and doing ok. Is it really fair that this property be taken from me?


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[marinello59]

I’m a former joiner then taxi driver. Working class enough? Every penny I used to buy the property was borrowed and it was loss making for 10 years. I supported it through my wages. Now it is starting to give a small annual return but the real benefit won’t come until the mortgage has been paid off. It will then give me a small income towards my pension. After 8 years of owning it, it was still in negative equity but has now recovered and doing ok. Is it really fair that this property be taken from me?


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We're discussing a guy with nine properties. Are you really arguing he is still working class.

[Hibbyradge]

If he owns nine properties and it provides an income then how can he be ''very much working class''? He's living off capital.

I'm not sure what defines a person as working class anymore, but surely investing for the future doesn't automatically make you middle class? :dunno:

Millions of working class folk have shares, unit trusts and property. That might make them a bit wealthier or more financially secure, but it doesn't change their social standing in that sense.

[Hibbyradge]

We're discussing a guy with nine properties. Are you really arguing he is still working class.

He has 9 mortgages too.

It's an interesting question though.

If a bus driver wins £10m on the lottery, packs in his job, and heads off to Thailand for a life in the sun, is he still working class?

[marinello59]

I'm not sure what defines a person as working class anymore, but surely investing for the future doesn't automatically make you middle class? :dunno:

Millions of working class folk have shares, unit trusts and property. That might make them a bit wealthier or more financially secure, but it doesn't change their social standing in that sense.

Nine properties owned . Lets go on the low side and say at a value of £180K each. So he has ownership of property worth roughly £1.6 million which I imagine gives him a decent return. Can you really argue that fits the profile of a traditional working class guy? At the very least he is now middle class and so his social standing has most definitely changed. However I'll discuss it later with my fellow members of the Tooting Popular Front and let you know their thoughts. :greengrin

[Smartie]

I don't know what the typical landlord is, but I have a flat I rent out in Edinburgh and literally millions of people have buy to let mortgages.

I know an ex-police officer who has 9 houses he rents out on the same basis. His only risk is not finding tenants to pay the mortgage etc. It's a fairly straightforward way to provide for your future.

I don't suppose he retired from the police after losing his leg in a motorbike accident did he? Does he live in Linlithgow and are the houses in Falkirk?

That's what happened to one of my mates from school.

Having an accident, receiving his police pension and an insurance payoff resulting in him being in a position where he had a decent amount of cash but restricted future career prospects at a relatively young age had many effects on him - a change to his social class was not one of those.

Be bought some houses, his wife works long hours. He's not the stereotypical wealthy landlord.

[DaveF]

I'm a member of a tennis club. Am I now a middle class twat ☺️

[marinello59]

He has 9 mortgages too.

It's an interesting question though.

If a bus driver wins £10m on the lottery, packs in his job, and heads off to Thailand for a life in the sun, is he still working class?



No. He's a lucky *******.

[Jack]

He has 9 mortgages too.

It's an interesting question though.

If a bus driver wins £10m on the lottery, packs in his job, and heads off to Thailand for a life in the sun, is he still working class?

Independently wealthy.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't suppose he retired from the police after losing his leg in a motorbike accident did he? Does he live in Linlithgow and are the houses in Falkirk?

That's what happened to one of my mates from school.

Having an accident, receiving his police pension and an insurance payoff resulting in him being in a position where he had a decent amount of cash but restricted future career prospects at a relatively young age had many effects on him - a change to his social class was not one of those.

Be bought some houses, his wife works long hours. He's not the stereotypical wealthy landlord.

No Smartie, that's not the same guy.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't suppose he retired from the police after losing his leg in a motorbike accident did he? Does he live in Linlithgow and are the houses in Falkirk?

That's what happened to one of my mates from school.

Having an accident, receiving his police pension and an insurance payoff resulting in him being in a position where he had a decent amount of cash but restricted future career prospects at a relatively young age had many effects on him - a change to his social class was not one of those.

Be bought some houses, his wife works long hours. He's not the stereotypical wealthy landlord.

And this policy will not give two hoots about his circumstances. His tenants will be only to happy at taking his properties from him. I’m sure the government will step in and look after him though.[emoji849]


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[Smartie]

No Smartie, that's not the same guy.

Looks like there might be more retired police officer landlords than first thought then......

[Peevemor]

Looks like there might be more retired police officer landlords than first thought then......

It's not really surprising. Maybe things have changed now but I know a few ex policeman who, having done their 25 years or whatever, retired fairly young and took other jobs (part & full time) while at the same time getting a decent pension - thus giving them extra cash to blow or invest as they saw fitt.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://youtu.be/9tXBC-71aZs

[Colr]

https://youtu.be/9tXBC-71aZs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ytoSJadmlIg

[Pretty Boy]

It's been interesting reading the debate over the last couple of pages. The issue of what constitutes 'working class' is an interesting one. One of my issues with the current Labour hierarchy is their desire to fight the battles of old, traditional ideas about the class system are outdated. Tony Blair, for all his faults, understood this and understood that he had to appeal to people who still considered themselves working class but in real terms were actually traditional middle class, flip that around and it also rings true.

With regards to property I think the issue doesn't really lie with individuals but rather with a system that has made property a commodity to be collected, traded and profited from rather than a basic human necessity. All the stats point to the same conclusion; that property prices continue to rise but ownership rates are stagnating. As of 2017 home ownership was at it's lowest level since the mid 80s and the private rented sector had doubled in just over a decade. Almost 50% of people in the 25-34 bracket are paying a private landlord for a house. As increasing numbers are locked out of the market more property remains in or ends up in fewer peoples hands. Airbnb and the likes only exacerbate that problem.

It's a conundrum that is far from simple to solve. No one who owns property is going to support anything that damages their equity or threatens their ability to find a tenant for their property. On the flip side the more people trapped in the month to month rent cycle the more exclusive owning property becomes and there is a smaller pool of people to trade property with.

[Andy Bee]

So is the conclusion that anyone that owns a rental property now middle class? I'm genuinely interested as I'd be the only middle class truck driver I know?:greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

So is the conclusion that anyone that owns a rental property is now middle class? I'm genuinely interested as I'd be the only middle class truck driver I know?:greengrin

I think it's actually an interesting question.

The idea of working and middle class is really pretty much redundant. Almost everyone who traditionally fell into either bracket has to work now but does simply working or having a certain occupation make someone 'working class'?

One of my Dads mates is a plumber, has a few guys working for him and he has branched out into other areas. His income is now comfortably in 6 figures a year, he owns multiple properties and is currently on holiday in the Seychelles. Does being a plumber to trade make him working class? Does his income and lifestyle make him middles class? Whilst he certainly didn't come from a traditionally middle class background, his child was privately educated and is currently studying at St Andrews Uni. He certainly doesn't appear to fall into the traditional working class bracket but does his background lock him out of being truly middle class?

[Andy Bee]

I think it's actually an interesting question.

The idea of working and middle class is really pretty much redundant. Almost everyone who traditionally fell into either bracket has to work now but does simply working or having a certain occupation make someone 'working class'?

One of my Dads mates is a plumber, has a few guys working for him and he has branched out into other areas. His income is now closing in on 6 figures a year, he owns multiple properties and is currently on holiday in the Seychelles. Does being a plumber to trade make him working class? Does his income and lifestyle make him middles class? Whilst he certainly didn't come from a traditionally middle class background, his child was privately educated and is currently studying at St Andrews Uni. He certainly doesn't appear to fall into the traditional working class bracket but does his background lock him out of being truly middle class?


I suppose it all depends on the persons character rather than the amount of money they have PB. If the guy walks about with a cravat, cigar and smoking jacket bragging about his share portfolio whilst reading the times then he could be construed as middle class. It's what the person wants other people to perceive is what I'm getting at. If you're proud of your working class roots and don't try and hide it then your working class no matter how much you earn, middle class can't be forced on someone just because of bank balance or property owned.

[Andy Bee]

They're now talking about a 4 day working week without any loss of pay, sounds absolutely fantastic but obviously totally unworkable. How many people now work a 9-5 5 day working week? How would that work for someone on a 0 hour contract? How would that factor into a small business budget when we're talking about effectively giving a 20% payrise?

[marinello59]

They're now talking about a 4 day working week without any loss of pay, sounds absolutely fantastic but obviously totally unworkable. How many people now work a 9-5 5 day working week? How would that work for someone on a 0 hour contract? How would that factor into a small business budget when we're talking about effectively giving a 20% payrise?

Next they will be talking about a minimum wage, 40 hour working weeks, guaranteed holidays and maternity pay. All unworkable ideas in their time.

[lapsedhibee]

They're now talking about a 4 day working week without any loss of pay, sounds absolutely fantastic but obviously totally unworkable. How many people now work a 9-5 5 day working week? How would that work for someone on a 0 hour contract? How would that factor into a small business budget when we're talking about effectively giving a 20% payrise?
Efficiency savings. They could knock at least a day off their own working week by getting rid of their current voting 'system'.

[Colr]

They're now talking about a 4 day working week without any loss of pay, sounds absolutely fantastic but obviously totally unworkable. How many people now work a 9-5 5 day working week? How would that work for someone on a 0 hour contract? How would that factor into a small business budget when we're talking about effectively giving a 20% payrise?
I haven’t worked 9 - 5 since I moved to London. 9 - 5:30 with half an hour lunch is the norm. You end up getting in early to avoid the worst of the rush hour.

Used to work fixed 35hours in Glasgow. 15 minute commute as well.

[Hibrandenburg]

They're now talking about a 4 day working week without any loss of pay, sounds absolutely fantastic but obviously totally unworkable. How many people now work a 9-5 5 day working week? How would that work for someone on a 0 hour contract? How would that factor into a small business budget when we're talking about effectively giving a 20% payrise?

It works well in some countries. If implemented correctly it could even do away with 0 hour contracts. If employers actually had problems recruiting more staff it would turn the tables on what essentially is an employer friendly market into an employee friendly market meaning employers would have to improve terms and conditions to attract candidates. Can't see what's wrong with that.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Next they will be talking about a minimum wage, 40 hour working weeks, guaranteed holidays and maternity pay. All unworkable ideas in their time.


A lot of these hard fought for rights will be under threat after Brexit I'd suggest

[MSK]

I haven’t worked 9 - 5 since I moved to London. 9 - 5:30 with half an hour lunch is the norm. You end up getting in early to avoid the worst of the rush hour.

Used to work fixed 35hours in Glasgow. 15 minute commute as well.I now work the best hours ever since my first job after leaving school, my brewery hours were 0730 until last keg delivered, could be 1300 hrs or 1900 hrs, but no weekend work. My current NHS hours are 0830-1630 Monday to Friday with one weekend in 8. My directorate would seriously struggle if we were to lose one working day per week, we are a specialised area and we are already under staffed with no scope for further recruitment.

[Ozyhibby]

I worked for a builder in Oz who worked four 10 hour shifts and had Friday off each week. All the guys loved it. Still a 40 hour week but a long weekend every weekend.


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[Pretty Boy]

I worked for a builder in Oz who worked four 10 hour shifts and had Friday off each week. All the guys loved it. Still a 40 hour week but a long weekend every weekend.


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I think in a lot of instances working less hours can definitely increase productivity.

I can only speak for myself but I am supposed to start at 9 every day but I go in for 8.20 because I work better in the morning. Between then and about 3 I get through a power of work, for the last 2 hours I am, by my own admission, a waste of space. I'd go as far as to say if my work paid me the same money to only work 8 until 2.30 every day they would get more out of me than paying me to work 9 to 5 with a half hour lunch every day. Alternatively working the same hours but a day less a week would likely focus my mind as well.

There's certainly limited data available from countries who have tried shorter working hours that suggests that I'm not alone in that.

[Smartie]

I've moved my business towards working this way.

Everyone gets a day off through the week - it helps when it comes to making doctor's appointments etc, it breaks up the working week and has people spending less time and money getting to work for the same number of hours work.

The other days are long but our workforce is mainly young and mainly female, they're able to cope with it and like it a lot.


On a slightly separate note, I had a meeting with my accountant yesterday and we were comparing notes on "young employees". There is a lot of pish spoken and written about "millennials" these days. We've both had a few apprentices join our teams over the past couple of years and we were noting how much of a breath of fresh air they are. Dilligent, hard-working, keen, interested and grateful for the opportunity.

[G B Young]

Following up Swinson's refusal to countenance a coalition with Labour (or the Tories), Chuka puts the boot into Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49714730

[JeMeSouviens]

This is odd. Harriet Harman's CLP have passed a motion saying she shouldn't try to be speaker and they will stand a candidate against her if she succeeds in getting appointed to the role.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/harriet-harman-urged-to-pull-out-of-commons-speaker-race-by-local-labour-party_uk_5d848247e4b0849d4726f452?xje

:dunno:

[JeMeSouviens]

HH responds:

https://twitter.com/HarrietHarman/status/1174969367529807875

Not backing down.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190920/71b2f83bdc3dfc2f2674764d3a012ea5.jpg

That’s what’s holding Labour back, not left wing enough.[emoji23]


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[Rocky]

If he was a police officer then he is very much working class.


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If he's making his money from accumulated capital then he's evidently not working class, regardless of his roots

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190920/71b2f83bdc3dfc2f2674764d3a012ea5.jpg

That’s what’s holding Labour back, not left wing enough.[emoji23]


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Laura Kuenssberg. :LOL:

[Ozyhibby]

Laura Kuenssberg. :LOL:

There’s not a woman in politics you don’t want to have a go at, is there.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Sources believe NEC will vote to oust Watson in morning + move will be backed by members + enough votes on conference floor to approve the move tomorrow afternoon ... move has come completely out of the blue for Watson’s team

[marinello59]

Sources believe NEC will vote to oust Watson in morning + move will be backed by members + enough votes on conference floor to approve the move tomorrow afternoon ... move has come completely out of the blue for Watson’s team

That’s exactly what a major party should be doing with an election due. What a shower of selfish self indulgent *******s. Stuff the country, they carry on with their civil war.

[Moulin Yarns]

That’s exactly what a major party should be doing with an election due. What a shower of selfish self indulgent *******s. Stuff the country, they carry on with their civil war.

You were doing well until you called them a major party. 😉

[marinello59]

You were doing well until you called them a major party. 😉

Fair point. They are racing towards fringe party status in Scotland and the Lib Dem’s..... the Lib Dem’s.... will hit them hard in England.

[Fife-Hibee]

There’s not a woman in politics you don’t want to have a go at, is there.[emoji23]


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I haven't really had a go at Nicola Sturgeon lately?

[Fife-Hibee]

That’s exactly what a major party should be doing with an election due. What a shower of selfish self indulgent *******s. Stuff the country, they carry on with their civil war.

They should have emptied him so much earlier than this. His entire purpose within the party from the very beginning was to undermine the leadership.

[marinello59]

They should have emptied him so much earlier than this. His entire purpose within the party from the very beginning was to undermine the leadership.

He wasn’t elected into position by a large number of party members then?

[Fife-Hibee]

He wasn’t elected into position by a large number of party members then?

Same could be said for Jeremy Corbyn. Doesn't stop you demanding that he be emptied though, despite being the leader of the party.

[marinello59]

Same could be said for Jeremy Corbyn. Doesn't stop you demanding that he be emptied though, despite being the leader of the party.

Where did I DEMAND that he be emptied ?
My point is that with an election coming soon indulging in civil war isn’t a very good idea. That’s not a comment on which side is right. They are letting those of us who want to see the Tories defeated down.

[Fife-Hibee]

Where did I DEMAND that he be emptied ?
My point is that with an election coming soon indulging in civil war isn’t a very good idea. That’s not a comment on which side is right. They are letting those of us who want to see the Tories defeated down.

The party was already in civil war as a result of Tom Watsons undermining of the leadership and official Labour Party policy. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him on. You can't have a general election where the party leader says one thing and the deputy leader 'intentionally' contradicts what is said to create the misleading impression that Labour doesn't know where it stands on policies.

[marinello59]

The party was already in civil war as a result of Tom Watsons undermining of the leadership and official Labour Party policy. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him on. You can't have a general election where the party leader says one thing and the deputy leader 'intentionally' contradicts what is said to create the misleading impression that Labour doesn't know where it stands on policies.

So you think the best thing they can do when they are already several points behind one of the most incompetent Governments in history is emphasise their own divisions. And that’s not self indulgent?
As an aside, given your own right wing views , why the dedication to Corbyn?

[Fife-Hibee]

So you think the best thing they can do when they are already several points behind one of the most incompetent Governments in history is emphasise their own divisions. And that’s not self indulgent?
As an aside, given your own right wing views , why the dedication to Corbyn?

Would they be several points behind if everybody within the Labour Party had been united behind the leader and official party policy, instead of allowing divisions to be created by a deputy leader who clearly has his own selfish ambitions to fulfil?

The issue with Labour isn't their official policy. The issue is that many are confused about what official Labour policy actually is, because they have a leader and a deputy leader saying different things.

Labours error isn't getting rid of Tom Watson, it's that they didn't do it early enough.

I don't buy into the tired outdated right wing/left wing rhetoric. I'll leave that to the political tribalists.

[Future17]

The party was already in civil war as a result of Tom Watsons undermining of the leadership and official Labour Party policy. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him on. You can't have a general election where the party leader says one thing and the deputy leader 'intentionally' contradicts what is said to create the misleading impression that Labour doesn't know where it stands on policies.

I kind of agree but, if I've understood this correctly, they're not replacing him, they're abolishing his post.

Not only will that not stop TW "undermining" Corbyn, it's also likely to increase the focus on others who disagree with him.

It's difficult to see what they're trying to achieve with this move ahead of a general election.

[Fife-Hibee]

I kind of agree but, if I've understood this correctly, they're not replacing him, they're abolishing his post.

Not only will that not stop TW "undermining" Corbyn, it's also likely to increase the focus on others who disagree with him.

It's difficult to see what they're trying to achieve with this move ahead of a general election.

I agree. They should have (in my opinion) launched him altogether as soon as his antics became obvious.

[lord bunberry]

On the subject of right to buy for private tenants I think it’s just a scare tactic. Something needs to be done about private landlords charging a fortune to private tenants. Rents should be capped at the same rate as the local authorities are charging. It’s not right imo that people are making money from people’s basic need to put a roof over their head. Renting is more expensive than getting a mortgage these days.

[RyeSloan]

On the subject of right to buy for private tenants I think it’s just a scare tactic. Something needs to be done about private landlords charging a fortune to private tenants. Rents should be capped at the same rate as the local authorities are charging. It’s not right imo that people are making money from people’s basic need to put a roof over their head. Renting is more expensive than getting a mortgage these days.

Demonising the greedy landlord is an age old tactic. It will win votes but does little, if anything, to resolve the underlying factors that have created, then exacerbated, the situation.

Labour are effectively suggesting state appropriation of private property (oh and 10% of all listed firms in the UK as well as a wee side show ‘for the workers’).

Here is a rather long but interesting piece on rent controls, why the answer is it black and white, but how some detailed case studies have shown that ultimately they do little for the people that they are supposedly mean to help (in other words just like most government interventions in the housing market)

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/rent-control/

[lord bunberry]

Demonising the greedy landlord is an age old tactic. It will win votes but does little, if anything, to resolve the underlying factors that have created, then exacerbated, the situation.

Labour are effectively suggesting state appropriation of private property (oh and 10% of all listed firms in the UK as well as a wee side show ‘for the workers’).

Here is a rather long but interesting piece on rent controls, why the answer is it black and white, but how some detailed case studies have shown that ultimately they do little for the people that they are supposedly mean to help (in other words just like most government interventions in the housing market)

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/rent-control/ (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/rent-control/)
It’s an interesting read, but it concentrates on the American market and talks of property developers not building houses for the rental market if rents are capped. Other than housing associations and local authorities in this country I’m not aware of anyone who builds houses for the rental market. The article also makes a few decent points regarding what landlords do in a capped rental market, but these are short term problems that would eventually be overcome p, leading to a more balanced rental market. I’ve no doubt it will lead to a drop in house prices, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

[marinello59]

Would they be several points behind if everybody within the Labour Party had been united behind the leader and official party policy, instead of allowing divisions to be created by a deputy leader who clearly has his own selfish ambitions to fulfil?

The issue with Labour isn't their official policy. The issue is that many are confused about what official Labour policy actually is, because they have a leader and a deputy leader saying different things.

Labours error isn't getting rid of Tom Watson, it's that they didn't do it early enough.

I don't buy into the tired outdated right wing/left wing rhetoric. I'll leave that to the political tribalists.

The timing is awful though, if Watson had to go then they should have done it earlier. It looks like we agree on that. The method being used stinks. A party within the party don’t like the man in position but they can’t remove him using established democratic party procedure so they move to just abolish the post. That really doesn’t look good.
I take your point about the left/right divide being less relevant. I don’t think the current split on constitutional lines we have just now is any less tribal though.

[G B Young]

I kind of agree but, if I've understood this correctly, they're not replacing him, they're abolishing his post.

Not only will that not stop TW "undermining" Corbyn, it's also likely to increase the focus on others who disagree with him.

It's difficult to see what they're trying to achieve with this move ahead of a general election.

Yes, such a wonderful unifying move on the eve of a party conference, which was already shaping up to be a Brexit battleground. Labour have no leg to stand on when it comes to slating the PM for removing the whip from rebel Tory MPs when this sort of Stalinist purge prevails. Don't like what an elected deputy leader says? Just abolish his job. Watson still has plenty of supporters so the Labour civil war looks set to rumble on. Who could ever take them seriously?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tom-watson-latest-labour-mps-fury-at-outrageous-bid-to-oust-partys-deputy-leader-a4242856.html

[Ozyhibby]

It’s an interesting read, but it concentrates on the American market and talks of property developers not building houses for the rental market if rents are capped. Other than housing associations and local authorities in this country I’m not aware of anyone who builds houses for the rental market. The article also makes a few decent points regarding what landlords do in a capped rental market, but these are short term problems that would eventually be overcome p, leading to a more balanced rental market. I’ve no doubt it will lead to a drop in house prices, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.


Every major builder in the UK builds for the rental market. Long before a block of flats has even begun to be built the sales teams are calling round the large lists of investors they have trying to get in early off plan sales. In some city centre blocks more than 50% of the development will be sold this way and the early sales are crucial for the developer getting the finance to build them in the first place. There are also massive build to rent developments starting now as well. These are developments of two bed flats or student accommodation which are usually owned by pension funds or private equity companies.

A drop in house prices is not necessarily a bad thing, I agree.


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[Ozyhibby]

Yes, such a wonderful unifying move on the eve of a party conference, which was already shaping up to be a Brexit battleground. Labour have no leg to stand on when it comes to slating the PM for removing the whip from rebel Tory MPs when this sort of Stalinist purge prevails. Don't like what an elected deputy leader says? Just abolish his job. Watson still has plenty of supporters so the Labour civil war looks set to rumble on. Who could ever take them seriously?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tom-watson-latest-labour-mps-fury-at-outrageous-bid-to-oust-partys-deputy-leader-a4242856.html

Wasn’t it Tom Watson who stopped the exodus of Labour MP’s to the TIG’s a few months back? If they force him out today will there now be a mass exodus to the Lib Dem’s?


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[Pretty Boy]

So leaders of both main parties have now decided they will just circumvent democracy when it suits them?

Tom Watson was elected in a separate contest from Corbyn. He has his own mandate. By all means propose a deputy leadership challenge but to simply attempt to abolish the position stinks. They should just abolish the position of leader of the party, Mr Nobody would probably provide more leadership than the current incumbent anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190921/75ede1ede466f7f545d00f9410a550c9.jpg


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[G B Young]

Wasn’t it Tom Watson who stopped the exodus of Labour MP’s to the TIG’s a few months back? If they force him out today will there now be a mass exodus to the Lib Dem’s?


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Lib Dems certainly stand to benefit yet further from more Labour infighting.

[southsider]

I am not a Labour voter but with fresh leadership I could be again. Corbyn is unelectable and his narrow views are a liability. Labour will never win a GE as the party has lost Scotland and the 50 odd MP's they once could count on.

[marinello59]

Corbyn steps in to stop the madness and kicks the motion to abolish the Deputy leader position in to the long grass. . What a mess Momentum made of this.

[Pretty Boy]

Corbyn steps in to stop the madness and kicks the motion to abolish the Deputy leader position in to the long grass. . What a mess Momentum made of this.

Credit where credits due. Good on him for stepping in and knocking this nonsense on the head.

[Ozyhibby]

Will see how it all plays out but this surely strengthens Watson and weakens Corbyn?


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[Ozyhibby]

Looks like Labour won’t decide whether to back remain or leave until after the GE. Lib Dem’s will be delighted.


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[jonty]

Credit where credits due. Good on him for stepping in and knocking this nonsense on the head.

not really. he's agreed to have the post reviewed, which IMO just seems like a stalling tactic.

[Ozyhibby]

not really. he's agreed to have the post reviewed, which IMO just seems like a stalling tactic.

Think it’s a case of he tried to get rid of Watson but realised he could end up facing a leadership election and bottled it.


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[lapsedhibee]

Think it’s a case of he tried to get rid of Watson but realised he could end up facing a leadership election and bottled it.


That's exactly what it looks like. As the leader of a major political party Corbyn is beyond pathetic.

[RyeSloan]

not really. he's agreed to have the post reviewed, which IMO just seems like a stalling tactic.

Maybe they should just rename themselves Momentum and be done with it?

[G B Young]

Credit where credits due. Good on him for stepping in and knocking this nonsense on the head.

As others have pointed out he hasn't knocked it on the head, he's decided to 'review' the role of deputy leader instead. I'd hazard a guess that any review proposals will be along the lines that the party leader will appoint his deputy rather than him being elected ie to ensure they have a 'yes' man or woman in place.

Given that Momentum's reason for existence is to back the Corbyn project I imagine the blessed Jeremy initially backed the move to scrap Watson's job, realised the negative publicity was going to completely overshadow anything positive they were hoping to flag up at the conference and made a damage limitation move. As ever with Corbyn, such a move has come only after the damage is already done. The guy's a buffoon.

Watson of course has wasted no time putting the boot in, describing the moves as a 'sectarian drive-by shooting':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100

[jonty]

I was pleased to see Corbyn attend the climate strike and talk some sense.
Then he goes and shoots himself in the foot with this nonsense. Wrong time, wrong place.

Its a wonder he makes it through the day.

[Fife-Hibee]

Watson of course has wasted no time putting the boot in, describing the moves as a 'sectarian drive-by shooting':

Which pretty much sums Watson up. He's been sticking the boot in non stop from the very beginning. Anything to prevent unity within the party. I think Corbyn realizes it's far too late to send him his P45 now.

[Fife-Hibee]

Sky News talking to John McTernan for 'balance' over the Labour issue. :faf:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sky News talking to John McTernan for 'balance' over the Labour issue. :faf:

He's always mouthing off on telly. Who the hell is he? He seems to be in the wrong party, supporting right wing positions on everything.

[Fife-Hibee]

AAV hits the nail on the head with this one in my opinion.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2740076369365592&id=185180654855189

[G B Young]

Which pretty much sums Watson up. He's been sticking the boot in non stop from the very beginning. Anything to prevent unity within the party. I think Corbyn realizes it's far too late to send him his P45 now.

Is that really his sole purpose though? Corbyn and his cohorts like to make a big play about how Labour is a 'broad church' and that they're focused on a 'kinder, gentler politics' yet unity within the party seems impossible to achieve. Like the Tories, it's a party at war with itself. Watson, like Corbyn, was elected by the party members and is therefore entitled to bring to the table the concerns of those members who don't slavishly follow the Corbyn doctrine. If Labour really was a broad church they would see fit to respect those views, not simply try to boot out anyone who isn't wedded to a hard-left agenda. I'm not especially impressed by Watson (his involvement in the baseless witch-hunt against the late Lord Brittan was a massive error of judgement), but he has acted as something of a standard bearer for those in the party who feel it no longer represents them.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is that really his sole purpose though? Corbyn and his cohorts like to make a big play about how Labour is a 'broad church' and that they're focused on a 'kinder, gentler politics' yet unity within the party seems impossible to achieve. Like the Tories, it's a party at war with itself. Watson, like Corbyn, was elected by the party members and is therefore entitled to bring to the table the concerns of those members who don't slavishly follow the Corbyn doctrine. If Labour really was a broad church they would see fit to respect those views, not simply try to boot out anyone who isn't wedded to a hard-left agenda. I'm not especially impressed by Watson (his involvement in the baseless witch-hunt against the late Lord Brittan was a massive error of judgement), but he has acted as something of a standard bearer for those in the party who feel it no longer represents them.

Being a broad church doesn't mean allowing your deputy leader to confuse the electorate by contradicting party policy. Regardless of how broad a church a party is, MPs still have to respect the official policy of the party they're working for.

It's one thing to disagree with party policy, but what Tom Watson has been doing goes far beyond disagreement. He has been laying out a manifesto that doesn't exist to purposely send mixed signals to potential Labour voters on where Labour actually stands. His purpose is clearly to make Labour unelectable as long as they don't stand for what he wants them to stand for.

[Mibbes Aye]

Being a broad church doesn't mean allowing your deputy leader to confuse the electorate by contradicting party policy. Regardless of how broad a church a party is, MPs still have to respect the official policy of the party they're working for.

It's one thing to disagree with party policy, but what Tom Watson has been doing goes far beyond disagreement. He has been laying out a manifesto that doesn't exist to purposely send mixed signals to potential Labour voters on where Labour actually stands. His purpose is clearly to make Labour unelectable as long as they don't stand for what he wants them to stand for.

So if an MP has to respect official party policy, perhaps you will stop slagging off Jo Swinson for erm, following official party policy :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

So if an MP has to respect official party policy, perhaps you will stop slagging off Jo Swinson for erm, following official party policy :wink:

Jo Swinson is the leader of the Liberal Democrats. It was Liberal Democrat policy to have an EU Referendum in the first place. There's also a difference between talking official party policy and actually genuinely supporting it.

It has already been well established that what comes out of Jo Swinsons mouth and her actual actions are completely contradictory.

[Mibbes Aye]

Jo Swinson is the leader of the Liberal Democrats. It was Liberal Democrat policy to have an EU Referendum in the first place. There's also a difference between talking official party policy and actually genuinely supporting it.

It has already been well established that what comes out of Jo Swinsons mouth and her actual actions are completely contradictory.

So she was publicly backing official party policy, so you won’t continue criticising her for it :agree:

[marinello59]

Being a broad church doesn't mean allowing your deputy leader to confuse the electorate by contradicting party policy. Regardless of how broad a church a party is, MPs still have to respect the official policy of the party they're working for.

It's one thing to disagree with party policy, but what Tom Watson has been doing goes far beyond disagreement. He has been laying out a manifesto that doesn't exist to purposely send mixed signals to potential Labour voters on where Labour actually stands. His purpose is clearly to make Labour unelectable as long as they don't stand for what he wants them to stand for.

Corbyn made a career out of opposing official party policy. Are you going to condemn him for that now then?

[Mibbes Aye]

Corbyn made a career out of opposing official party policy. Are you going to condemn him for that now then?

Between him and John McDonnell, they voted against the Party nearly a thousand times in the Commons.

It felt like a point of principle for them.

They have no right to criticise anyone for lack of loyalty.

And their supporters are like a bunch of toddlers let loose in a sweetie shop.

Power without responsibility, accompanied by rampant hypocrisy.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn made a career out of opposing official party policy. Are you going to condemn him for that now then?

Corbyn was never the deputy leader. Besides, there's nothing wrong with not agreeing with official party policy. It becomes a problem when you start telling potential party voters that the party stands for your policies and not the ones that are officially laid out in the manifesto.

It's not a difficult issue to grasp. Tom Watson has every right to say that he disagrees with Labours Party policy. What he doesn't have a right to do is pretend that it's his policies that the party stands for when they completely contradict what is officially laid out by the party.

[Fife-Hibee]

Between him and John McDonnell, they voted against the Party nearly a thousand times in the Commons.

It felt like a point of principle for them.

They have no right to criticise anyone for lack of loyalty.

And their supporters are like a bunch of toddlers let loose in a sweetie shop.

Power without responsibility, accompanied by rampant hypocrisy.

Accept it clearly isn't hypocrisy. Neither Corbyn or McDonnell ever claimed that it was their own stance that made up official Labour Party policy. Unlike Tom Watson has done.

[G B Young]

Being a broad church doesn't mean allowing your deputy leader to confuse the electorate by contradicting party policy. Regardless of how broad a church a party is, MPs still have to respect the official policy of the party they're working for.

It's one thing to disagree with party policy, but what Tom Watson has been doing goes far beyond disagreement. He has been laying out a manifesto that doesn't exist to purposely send mixed signals to potential Labour voters on where Labour actually stands. His purpose is clearly to make Labour unelectable as long as they don't stand for what he wants them to stand for.

Corbyn has been doing a first-class job of confusing the electorate without Watson's help :rolleyes: When it comes to official party policy on, say, Scottish independence or Brexit would the average punter have a clue where Labour stand given the contradictory statements that have come from Corbyn, McDonnell. Abbot, McCluskey et al, let alone Watson?

Personally I don't think Watson's wrong to use his profile to highlight concerns about the direction Labour is attempting to head or to defend those in the party who feel intimidated or bullied and for trying to ensure respect for all viewpoints (eg he has been a strong and effective voice in ensuring the anti-Semitism saga has been given the prominence it merits rather than allowing it to be swept under the carpet).

[Mibbes Aye]

Accept it clearly isn't hypocrisy. Neither Corbyn or McDonnell ever claimed that it was their own stance that made up official Labour Party policy. Unlike Tom Watson has done.

You will have to remind me how many times Watson has voted against his party. Is it four or five hundred times like Corbyn?

[Fife-Hibee]

You will have to remind me how many times Watson has voted against his party. Is it four or five hundred times like Corbyn?

MPs are entitled to go against the party whip if they're prepared to accept the ramifications for doing so, especially if they feel they're representing their constituents. Which Corbyn clearly was, otherwise he wouldn't have kept his seat.

But as i'll say again for the umpteenth time on here. Tom Watson as deputy leader was attempting to pass his own personal views off as official Labour Party policy.

Which as you know, are two completely different things.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn has been doing a first-class job of confusing the electorate without Watson's help :rolleyes: When it comes to official party policy on, say, Scottish independence or Brexit would the average punter have a clue where Labour stand given the contradictory statements that have come from Corbyn, McDonnell. Abbot, McCluskey et al, let alone Watson?

Personally I don't think Watson's wrong to use his profile to highlight concerns about the direction Labour is attempting to head or to defend those in the party who feel intimidated or bullied and for trying to ensure respect for all viewpoints (eg he has been a strong and effective voice in ensuring the anti-Semitism saga has been given the prominence it merits rather than allowing it to be swept under the carpet).

Has it ever occured to you that those accused of anti-semitism within the party feel intimidated and bullied? The media never gives them any sort of representation, so you never hear about it from their side of things.

[Mibbes Aye]

MPs are entitled to go against the party whip if they're prepared to accept the ramifications for doing so, especially if they feel they're representing their constituents. Which Corbyn clearly was, otherwise he wouldn't have kept his seat.

But as i'll say again for the umpteenth time on here. Tom Watson as deputy leader was attempting to pass his own personal views off as official Labour Party policy.

Which as you know, are two completely different things.

You didn't answer my question.

How many times has Tom Watson voted against Labour, compared to Jeremy Corbyn,

Is it a lot?

Or maybe not?

[marinello59]

Corbyn was never the deputy leader. Besides, there's nothing wrong with not agreeing with official party policy. It becomes a problem when you start telling potential party voters that the party stands for your policies and not the ones that are officially laid out in the manifesto.

It's not a difficult issue to grasp. Tom Watson has every right to say that he disagrees with Labours Party policy. What he doesn't have a right to do is pretend that it's his policies that the party stands for when they completely contradict what is officially laid out by the party.

So on the space of just one post you have already moved from saying MPs must respect the official policy of the party they are working for. You really couldn’t carry an argument in a bucket.

[Fife-Hibee]

So on the space of just one post you have already moved from saying MPs must respect the official policy of the party they are working for. You really couldn’t carry an argument in a bucket.

Yes, they must respect it. They can disagree with it, but they still have to respect the fact that the party they're working for has a set of policies that they may not always agree with.

Nothing wrong with my argument. What is your argument that it's ok for a deputy leader to pass their own personal views off as official party policy, when it isn't?

No doubt you'll attempt to hit back again with some whataboutery about Jeremy Corbyn, even although he's never been guilty of this.

[Fife-Hibee]

You didn't answer my question.

How many times has Tom Watson voted against Labour, compared to Jeremy Corbyn,

Is it a lot?

Or maybe not?

I didn't answer, because it's not relevant to the fact that he's been sending out false information regarding official Labour Party policy. Something that you and marinello59 keep deflecting from.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes, they must respect it. They can disagree with it, but they still have to respect the fact that the party they're working for has a set of policies that they may not always agree with.

Nothing wrong with my argument. What is your argument that it's ok for a deputy leader to pass their own personal views off as official party policy, when it isn't?

No doubt you'll attempt to hit back again with some whataboutery about Jeremy Corbyn, even although he's never been guilty of this.

So, just to be clear, you will retract, nay delete, all your posts having a go at Jo Swinson in 2008, Because any other course of action would make you an absolute hypocrite. And then, for those of us with a sufficient boredom threshold you can explain why you made those posts in the first place.

[Mibbes Aye]

I didn't answer, because it's not relevant to the fact that he's been sending out false information regarding official Labour Party policy. Something that you and marinello59 keep deflecting from.

You can’t answer if you want to keep your argument on track :-)

Go on, come on. You are calling out Tom Watson for all sorts. How many times has he voted against his party? How many times did Corbin vote against his party?

[Fife-Hibee]

So, just to be clear, you will retract, nay delete, all your posts having a go at Jo Swinson in 2008, Because any other course of action would make you an absolute hypocrite. And then, for those of us with a sufficient boredom threshold you can explain why you made those posts in the first place.

At no point in 2008 did Jo Swinson claim to disagree with the Lib Dem policy on having an EU Referendum. As i've said so many times already. It's ok for politicians to openly disagree with party policy, just as long as they're not trying to pass their own views off as official party policy, as this causes confusion for the electorate.

So not sure why you think i'd retract my posts regarding Jo Swinson, when she never even suggested at any point that she opposed an EU referendum.

[Fife-Hibee]

You can’t answer if you want to keep your argument on track :-)

Go on, come on. You are calling out Tom Watson for all sorts. How many times has he voted against his party? How many times did Corbin vote against his party?

If you think this is in anyway relevant to my argument, then you either don't understand the point i'm making, or you're intentionally acting as if you don't. What i'm talking about has absolutely nothing to do with votes and everything to do with a deputy leader attempting to hijack official party policy. This is just your weak attempt at deflection.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The absolute state of the Labour party. Long may they swim around in their own pish.

[Mibbes Aye]

If you think this is in anyway relevant to my argument, then you either don't understand the point i'm making, or you're intentionally acting as if you don't. What i'm talking about has absolutely nothing to do with votes and everything to do with a deputy leader attempting to hijack official party policy. This is just your weak attempt at deflection.

Okay, you are laying into Tom Watson, we see that. How many times has he voted against his own party?

Say compared with Jeremy Corbyn, who I am guessing is between 400-500 times, while accepting party finance and support at elections. Nothing hypocritical about that........

[marinello59]

Yes, they must respect it. They can disagree with it, but they still have to respect the fact that the party they're working for has a set of policies that they may not always agree with.

Nothing wrong with my argument. What is your argument that it's ok for a deputy leader to pass their own personal views off as official party policy, when it isn't?

No doubt you'll attempt to hit back again with some whataboutery about Jeremy Corbyn, even although he's never been guilty of this.

I haven't commented on Watson's actions, I commented on the stupidity of the timing to remove him and the method that Momentum chose. Watching both sides here ripping in to each other does nothing for those of us who would like to see an effective opposition to the Tories.
You are the one laying all the blame for this on Watson whilst making an argument for party loyalty. If you are going to change your definition of just what constitutes party loyalty from post to post then expect to be pulled up for it. As an aside has Watson clearly stated somewhere that his views are official party policy? You have repeated that claim several times so I know you will have some links to back that up. I'm no fan of Watson (to say the least) but his statements have been reported as him being at loggerheads with the leadership rather than being actual policy.

[marinello59]

Has it ever occured to you that those accused of anti-semitism within the party feel intimidated and bullied? The media never gives them any sort of representation, so you never hear about it from their side of things.

What about the racists? Nobody thinks about the racists.

[Colr]

The party was already in civil war as a result of Tom Watsons undermining of the leadership and official Labour Party policy. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him on. You can't have a general election where the party leader says one thing and the deputy leader 'intentionally' contradicts what is said to create the misleading impression that Labour doesn't know where it stands on policies.

Why single him out. It’s most of the PLP.

[G B Young]

The weekend just keeps getting better for Jeremy. Top aide (who wrote their 2017 manifesto) quits, claiming he has no faith in Labour to win an election and accusing Corbyn's team of 'blizzard of lies':

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/21/remain-mps-accuse-jeremy-corbyn-shutting-down-brexit-debate

[G B Young]

Has it ever occured to you that those accused of anti-semitism within the party feel intimidated and bullied? The media never gives them any sort of representation, so you never hear about it from their side of things.

You mean we should be thinking of the bullies' sensitivities before those of the victims? A novel approach.

Corbyn himself has been accused of fostering a culture of bullying and anti-Semitism. He and his cohorts get plenty of media time to put their side of things across yet their response has been generally woeful.

[Pretty Boy]

Well this has been a successful conference so far. Really giving the country confidence that this is a party ready to govern.

It's like a particularly chaotic university socialist society. It would be laughable if it wasn't for the fact it's so serious. Another 5+ years of Tory rule because the lunatics have taken over the asylum in Victoria Street.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Has it ever occured to you that those accused of anti-semitism within the party feel intimidated and bullied? The media never gives them any sort of representation, so you never hear about it from their side of things.

That's a truly horrific take.

[cabbageandribs1875]

labours latest 'pledge'


22540


wonder where they came up with that idea

[GlesgaeHibby]

Corbyn has now said that a Labour Brexit deal could be better than remaining in the EU. I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious watching this hopelessly inept 'opposition' strengthening the position of the worst government in living memory. What is it going to take for Labour to get rid of Corbyn? There is absolutely zero chance of the guy winning an election. Surely even the most ardent Corbyn supporter would countenance getting rid of him and replacing him with a moderate to avoid 5 more years of Tory rule.

[CloudSquall]

I have to laugh at how half arsed Corbyn's attempts are at hiding his desire to leave the EU.

[Mibbes Aye]

If you think this is in anyway relevant to my argument, then you either don't understand the point i'm making, or you're intentionally acting as if you don't. What i'm talking about has absolutely nothing to do with votes and everything to do with a deputy leader attempting to hijack official party policy. This is just your weak attempt at deflection.
Similar to M59 I would be interested in what evidence you have for your extravagant claims about Wataon.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/94641e347a30ff606f4678f6214955a1.jpg
More private property getting confiscated. We’ll be safer with a no deal brexit and Johnson. Scary.


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[CloudSquall]

More private property getting confiscated. We’ll be safer with a no deal brexit and Johnson. Scary.


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https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1175806077306359809

More cringe from Abbott on private schools.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1175806077306359809

More cringe from Abbott on private schools.

Utterly cringeworthy. We need the word "Fremdschämen" in the English language.

[Ozyhibby]

I can see labour ending up in third place in next election.


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[Pete]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/94641e347a30ff606f4678f6214955a1.jpg
More private property getting confiscated. We’ll be safer with a no deal brexit and Johnson. Scary.


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I wonder who you're speaking for when you say 'we' 🤣

Another excellent proposal.

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder who you're speaking for when you say 'we' [emoji1787]

Another excellent proposal.

Everyone who lives here. When a government starts confiscating private property, economic collapse is never far behind.


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[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/94641e347a30ff606f4678f6214955a1.jpg
More private property getting confiscated. We’ll be safer with a no deal brexit and Johnson. Scary.


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Won’t apply in Scotland, I assume.

[Frankhfc]

I can see labour ending up in third place in next election.


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Absolutely agree.

I've already switched from Labour to the Lib Dems. Labour are now very much the scary party.

Jo Swinson's Lib Dems are both dedicated Remainers and have good social policies without being extremist class warriors.

[RyeSloan]

I wonder who you're speaking for when you say 'we' [emoji1787]

Another excellent proposal.

Barring the charitable status element what exactly do you see as excellent about that proposal and why?

[Ozyhibby]

Won’t apply in Scotland, I assume.

Won’t apply in England either. They are making themselves unelectable. Brexit will now happen one way or another. And the Tories will get another 5 years. And Labour will blame everyone else.


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[Bristolhibby]

Absolutely agree.

I've already switched from Labour to the Lib Dems. Labour are now very much the scary party.

Jo Swinson's Lib Dems are both dedicated Remainers and have good social policies without being extremist class warriors.

You mean they have taken the middle ground? Exactly what Labour need to do if they want to get elected. If not they’ll continue to be a party of protest.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Barring the charitable status element what exactly do you see as excellent about that proposal and why?

The charitable bit is bob on. No way Public Schools should be getting tax breaks. They are very profitable and exclusive businesses.

The rest is nonsense. Reintegrating?!? Asset seizure?!?

That all sounds very “5 year plan” like.

Great noise to the choir, but mental in the real world.

Again another good idea butchered by the Party (Momentum).

J

[Ozyhibby]

The charitable bit is bob on. No way Public Schools should be getting tax breaks. They are very profitable and exclusive businesses.

The rest is nonsense. Reintegrating?!? Asset seizure?!?

That all sounds very “5 year plan” like.

Great noise to the choir, but mental in the real world.

Again another good idea butchered by the Party (Momentum).

J

They aren’t profitable at all. That’s the point. They only get charitable status because they are not companies. There are no shareholders and no dividends are paid.


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[Ozyhibby]

Unison moving to back remain in the vote this afternoon. Corbyn might get bounced into a remain position now.


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[Bangkok Hibby]

Won’t apply in England either. They are making themselves unelectable. Brexit will now happen one way or another. And the Tories will get another 5 years. And Labour will blame everyone else.


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Only 5 years?

[Bristolhibby]

They aren’t profitable at all. That’s the point. They only get charitable status because they are not companies. There are no shareholders and no dividends are paid.


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Well then the market forces that they teach and their alumni love should be borne to true effect.

J

[GlesgaeHibby]

Conference accepts sitting on the fence. Shambles.

[Hiber-nation]

Watched a wee bit earlier, caught McDonnell saying that Leonard will be First Minister of Scotland in 2021. Quite incredible really.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Scathing, but spot on from an anonymous Labour MP

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1176185057050075137?s=19

[GlesgaeHibby]

Watched a wee bit earlier, caught McDonnell saying that Leonard will be First Minister of Scotland in 2021. Quite incredible really.

Leonard will be lucky to finish 4th at the next Holyrood elections. Greens and lib Dems will fancy their chances against him.

[Hibbyradge]

Absolutely disgraceful. Brexit is the most serious issue the country has faced since WWII and Labour doesn't have a view about it.

They're going to get slaughtered.

[G B Young]

Scathing, but spot on from an anonymous Labour MP

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1176185057050075137?s=19

Spot on indeed.

[marinello59]

Yes, they must respect it. They can disagree with it, but they still have to respect the fact that the party they're working for has a set of policies that they may not always agree with.

Nothing wrong with my argument. What is your argument that it's ok for a deputy leader to pass their own personal views off as official party policy, when it isn't?

No doubt you'll attempt to hit back again with some whataboutery about Jeremy Corbyn, even although he's never been guilty of this.

Post 2871 Fife. Surely you are not going missing in action again when asked to prove your ‘facts.’

[Glory Lurker]

They're a bunch of dafties.

[marinello59]

Absolutely disgraceful. Brexit is the most serious issue the country has faced since WWII and Labour doesn't have a view about it.

They're going to get slaughtered.

Here’s the best bit. They are going to negotiate the deal they think is best for Britain. And then decide if they are going to support their own deal or not. It’s the poor redundant satire writers I feel sorry for.

[Hiber-nation]

It's normal to get angry, or even just cringe when you see clips of the Tory Party Conference. But this was Labour, my party for over 30 years. And it makes me even angrier seeing that farce today.

[weecounty hibby]

I've said it before on this thread but it's almost like they don't actually want to be elected into government. They always appear happiest when in opposition and able to get involved in protest politics. The Brexit disaster and this Tory government should have been an open goal for them but they just don't seem to want to take it. It's what happens when you have a serial protester instead of a real leader in charge

[G B Young]

Guardian headline sums it up: Labour elite wins a battle but it might just have lost the war

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/23/labour-elite-wins-a-battle-but-it-might-have-just-lost-the-war

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/94641e347a30ff606f4678f6214955a1.jpg
More private property getting confiscated. We’ll be safer with a no deal brexit and Johnson. Scary.


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Could apply the same approach to private housing - another area with enormous inequality and inherited wealth/status.

[Colr]

Won’t apply in England either. They are making themselves unelectable. Brexit will now happen one way or another. And the Tories will get another 5 years. And Labour will blame everyone else.


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5 years? It took Labour longer than that to get over Foot’s manifesto and that was middle of the road by comparison. 15 years of Tory government if they get Brexit through by Halloween.

[Hibrandenburg]

Here’s the best bit. They are going to negotiate the deal they think is best for Britain. And then decide if they are going to support their own deal or not. It’s the poor redundant satire writers I feel sorry for.

You really need to think around a couple of corners to understand what they mean, but once you have it actually makes sense taking into account how we got where we are now. It basically means we have to take a step backwards to enable us to go forward. There need to be tangible options on the ballot paper that rule out ambiguities that were in the first referendum. Corbyn is still a twat though :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

You really need to think around a couple of corners to understand what they mean, but once you have it actually makes sense taking into account how we got where we are now. It basically means we have to take a step backwards to enable us to go forward. There need to be tangible options on the ballot paper that rule out ambiguities that were in the first referendum. Corbyn is still a twat though :greengrin

Twat isn't in the swear filter :greengrin

Twat twat twat twat twat twat twat ****.

[Ozyhibby]

You really need to think around a couple of corners to understand what they mean, but once you have it actually makes sense taking into account how we got where we are now. It basically means we have to take a step backwards to enable us to go forward. There need to be tangible options on the ballot paper that rule out ambiguities that were in the first referendum. Corbyn is still a twat though :greengrin

And that should be no bother to explain on the doorstep.[emoji23]

Tories = leave, do or die

Libs, SNP = remain

Labour = take a look at this flow chart we have made.




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[JeMeSouviens]

You really need to think around a couple of corners to understand what they mean, but once you have it actually makes sense taking into account how we got where we are now. It basically means we have to take a step backwards to enable us to go forward. There need to be tangible options on the ballot paper that rule out ambiguities that were in the first referendum. Corbyn is still a twat though :greengrin

:agree:

Logical policy but rubbish politics.

[JeMeSouviens]

And that should be no bother to explain on the doorstep.[emoji23]

Tories = leave, do or die

Libs, SNP = remain

Labour = take a look at this flow chart we have made.




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If they can make “let the people decide” stick as a slogan they might get somewhere. Of course if any Leavers actually see the sort of soft brexit Labour favour they’ll run a mile.

[Hibrandenburg]

And that should be no bother to explain on the doorstep.[emoji23]

Tories = leave, do or die

Libs, SNP = remain

Labour = take a look at this flow chart we have made.




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We're ****ed if we ignore the answers to problems just because they're complicated. Can't believe I've found myself in the position of defending Labour. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

And that should be no bother to explain on the doorstep.[emoji23]

Tories = leave, do or die

Libs, SNP = remain

Labour = take a look at this flow chart we have made.


We'd be in sooooo much better a place today if voting in elections and referendums were restricted to only people who could follow a flow chart, or even basic if-then reasoning.

[Hibrandenburg]

We'd be in sooooo much better a place today if voting in elections and referendums were restricted to only people who could follow a flow chart, or even basic if-then reasoning.

Remove the age barrier and introduce an IQ restriction.

[southsider]

Could apply the same approach to private housing - another area with enormous inequality and inherited wealth/status.

That will be a real vote winner. Get real.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I see Corbyn has just pledged Labour to scrapping zero hour contracts in the workplace. Now that's a proper policy :applause:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Free prescritions in England :applause:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Barring the charitable status element what exactly do you see as excellent about that proposal and why?

Because private schools are not charities in any sense of the word. This is an outrageous piece of nepotism for the extremely wealthy.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Scrap The Trade Union Act of the Thatcher government. New Labour refused to do it. :applause:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Free childcare for all children and new Sure Start programme:applause:

[Hibernia&Alba]

A publicly owned generic drugs manufacturer. I've been advocating this for years and ahve mentioned it on here in the past. :applause:

[RyeSloan]

Because private schools are not charities in any sense of the word. This is an outrageous piece of nepotism for the extremely wealthy.

That’s what I asked the question specifically excluding the charitable status element! ;-)

[Hibernia&Alba]

That’s what I asked the question specifically excluding the charitable status element! ;-)


But that would be to ignore the most important part of the policy :wink:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm a Green voter/member, but it's good to see Labour returning to its traditional values. As much as the right wing media are desperate to get rid of him, his popularity amongst Labour members is undeniable; they love the guy, as he is an authentic alternative to the neoliberal timidity of the New Labour era. Vested interests and hereditary wealth and power are terrifed of a proper democratic socialist government and are throwing everything they can at Corbyn, just like did at Foot and Kinnock. Give me his policy proposals ahead of ten years of austerity every time. :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

Corbyn's message to Scotland appears to be that he likes what @thesnp has delivered in Scotland on free personal care, free tuition and free prescriptions so he's going to do the same down south.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Corbyn's message to Scotland appears to be that he likes what @thesnp has delivered in Scotland on free personal care, free tuition and free prescriptions so he's going to do the same down south.

To be fair, big Jezza was advocating those policies long before the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

A publicly owned generic drugs manufacturer. I've been advocating this for years and ahve mentioned it on here in the past. :applause:

Sounds good :agree:

They also voted for net zero carbon by 2030. Ambitious, but what's the point of paying lip service to emergency otherwise?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm a Green voter/member, but it's good to see Labour returning to its traditional values. As much as the right wing media are desperate to get rid of him, his popularity amongst Labour members is undeniable; they love the guy, as he is an authentic alternative to the neoliberal timidity of the New Labour era. Vested interests and hereditary wealth and power are terrifed of a proper democratic socialist government and are throwing everything they can at Corbyn, just as did at Foot and Kinnock. Give me his policy proposals ahead of ten years of austerity every time. :agree:

His policy proposals are guaranteeing Tory govt, just like Foot’s and Kinnocks before him. Policies without power is as much use as a chocolate fire guard.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Has he also committed the party to free dental care too? That really needs to happen. Dental care should once again be fully incorporated ino the NHS.

[Pete]

Excellent speech, excellent policies. 🏆

Cue the 'the figures don't add up' mob and the amateur economic expert brigade any minute to tell us that it isn't possible.

[Hibernia&Alba]

His policy proposals are guaranteeing Tory govt, just like Foot’s and Kinnocks before him. Policies without power is as much use as a chocolate fire guard.


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They said that at the last general election. I simply think that analysis is wrong and policy announcements like today's, which will benefit the vast majority, will be very popular. What he can't do is control the right wing press, which is using all its black arts against him and creating the usual scare stories and blatant lies.

Labour manifesto includes:

Free childcare for all
Abolition of zero hour contracts
A public owned drug manufacturer
A national investment bank
Ending benefit sanctions
Public house building programme
Free prescriptions

Tory manifesto includes:

Austerity
Hard Brexit
Tax cuts for the richest



Which would most people choose?

[Ozyhibby]

They said that at the last general election. I simply think that analysis is wrong and policy announcements like today's, which will benefit the vast majority, will be very popular. What he can't do is control the right wing press, which is using all its black arts against him and creating the usual scare stories and blatant lies.

Labour manifesto includes:

Free childcare for all
Abolition of zero hour contracts
A public owned drug manufacturer
A national investment bank
Ending benefit sanctions
Public house building programme
Free prescriptions

Tory manifesto includes:

Austerity
Hard Brexit
Tax cuts for the richest



Which would most people choose?

I wouldn’t worry so much about the right wing press, newspapers are old hat.
And while he done better against May in 2017, he still lost. And he’s miles behind in polls now.


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[Ozyhibby]

To be fair, big Jezza was advocating those policies long before the SNP.

Difference is you need power to deliver. Corbyn still miles away from power.


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[Ozyhibby]

A publicly owned generic drugs manufacturer. I've been advocating this for years and ahve mentioned it on here in the past. :applause:

How are they going to get the patents to produce these drugs? More property getting confiscated? Bit of a pattern developing.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

How are they going to get the parents to produce these drugs? More property getting confiscated? Bit of a pattern developing.


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Generic drugs are surely just as open to a public owned drug manufacturer as a private one. For example, there are dozens of brands of paracetamol and aspirin.

[Ozyhibby]

Generic drugs are surely just as open to a public owned drug manufacturer as a private one. For example, there are dozens of brands of paracetamol and aspirin.

Generic ones aren’t the problem, they are cheap as chips because the patents have run out.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Generic ones aren’t the problem, they are cheap as chips because the patents have run out.


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Well, generic drugs were specifically cited, meaning no 'confiscation' of anything.

[G B Young]

They said that at the last general election. I simply think that analysis is wrong and policy announcements like today's, which will benefit the vast majority, will be very popular. What he can't do is control the right wing press, which is using all its black arts against him and creating the usual scare stories and blatant lies.

Labour manifesto includes:

Free childcare for all
Abolition of zero hour contracts
A public owned drug manufacturer
A national investment bank
Ending benefit sanctions
Public house building programme
Free prescriptions

Tory manifesto includes:

Austerity
Hard Brexit
Tax cuts for the richest



Which would most people choose?

All pretty much irrelevant when any forthcoming election will be fought almost solely around Brexit, an issue where Labour are hopelessly divided.

[lord bunberry]

His policy proposals are guaranteeing Tory govt, just like Foot’s and Kinnocks before him. Policies without power is as much use as a chocolate fire guard.


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If that’s the case then people must be brainwashed as those policies would make the lives of the majority of people in this country better off. The media has fed the narrative that left wing policies will be the ruin of the country. It’s absolute bollocks, during the so called boom years the working classes continued to get poorer while the majority of wealth was siphoned off by the tiny minority. If the answer to poverty in this country isn’t stairing people in the face then there’s no hope for any of us. These are exactly the policies I will be voting for in an independent Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

Corbyn's message to Scotland appears to be that he likes what @thesnp has delivered in Scotland on free personal care, free tuition and free prescriptions so he's going to do the same down south.

Corbyn’s measure would be wrong then.

Free personal care came about under the Lab-Lib coalition, nothing to to with the SNP.

Free prescriptions were introduced after they had been introduced in Wales and Northern Ireland, so I guess they get first credit.

And 90% of prescriptions are free in England anyway.

Apart from that you are right.

[Mibbes Aye]

They said that at the last general election. I simply think that analysis is wrong and policy announcements like today's, which will benefit the vast majority, will be very popular. What he can't do is control the right wing press, which is using all its black arts against him and creating the usual scare stories and blatant lies.

Labour manifesto includes:

Free childcare for all
Abolition of zero hour contracts
A public owned drug manufacturer
A national investment bank
Ending benefit sanctions
Public house building programme
Free prescriptions

Tory manifesto includes:

Austerity
Hard Brexit
Tax cuts for the richest



Which would most people choose?

I understand your sentiment, I really do and there are things I agree with in Labour’s announced policy but even as a supporter and member there are things that simply don’t stack up.

What makes it it worse is the way you describe it. You’ve listed the Labour wish list, which is all motherhood and apple pie. How we fund it, well there is a question?

Then you don’t really list Tory policies, you just list accusations, and while I agree that what you have said is likely what they are about, we need harder evidence than that, we need to name it and shame it. They won’t campaign saying they are going to do ‘austerity’, it is up to the Opposition to nail down their domestic and fiscal policies and say what impact they will have.

If Labour, and I don’t want Corbyn as PM, but if Labour is to win power, then it missed a singular chance to posit as Remain. By dropping that it likely missed the goal. It is not impossible however. Nevertheless it is hard to see how he hangs onto power, even if he can scrap a majority, given the instinctive majority towards Remain in Parliament.

All things said, at least we can say we lived and voted in interesting times.......

[Hibernia&Alba]

I understand your sentiment, I really do and there are things I agree with in Labour’s announced policy but even as a supporter and member there are things that simply don’t stack up.

What makes it it worse is the way you describe it. You’ve listed the Labour wish list, which is all motherhood and apple pie. How we fund it, well there is a question?

Then you don’t really list Tory policies, you just list accusations, and while I agree that what you have said is likely what they are about, we need harder evidence than that, we need to name it and shame it. They won’t campaign saying they are going to do ‘austerity’, it is up to the Opposition to nail down their domestic and fiscal policies and say what impact they will have.

It should be funded by closing tax loopholes and progressive use of the taxation system. Corbyn today talked about doing just that. Remember, we managed to find £180 billion overnight to bail out the banks in 2008, yet we can't give hard pressed families and communities the public services they desperately need? Of course we can. The old Tory trope about public spending being impossible to fund was shattered during the financial crisis; the alchemy that is money creation was laid bare. Tony Benn used to say that no government in history has ever said they have no money for a war, and, as he brilliantly pout it, "if we can always find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people". They can never use the 'magic money tree' nonsense again. A magic money tree was found overnight to save banks that had acted criminally, and of course not one banker was held responsible in the courts. The last decade of hard right economics has done enormous economic damage.


As for Tory proposals, well, what are they?

Leave the EU by 31st October, even without a trade deal.

I remember Johnson, outside Downing Street, pledging to get broadband access to all parts of the UK. Great; hardly earth shattering, but welcome.

He promised 20,000 extras police officers. Fantastic, credit where it's due, only the Tories have cut police numbers by 40,000 since 2010.

He said something about infrastructure, but gave no concrete plans.

He mentioned tax cuts, but again no figures.

What else is he proposing?


Working and middle class people need to weigh up the policies and decide whether trickle down economics really works for them and their community. The race to the bottom of poverty pay, insecure work, and public service cuts. Think about the impact of leaving the EU with no trade deal. Think about whether Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Patel and what remains of the hard right of the Tory Party, now the pro-Europeans have been purged, cares about their family.

Take the fight to them with a positive, progressive agenda and constantly contrast it with the Tory commitment to supply side fallacies which have left us with food banks, increasing levels of poverty, a million people without a permanent home, a huge increase in homelessness, public services which are crumbling, huge student debt, benefit sanctions and the demonization of the poorest and weakest.

It all comes to down to the type of society and planet people want for their children. Be bold, take on the right wing media when it comes to funding, and constantly challenge the Tory record since 2010. As Tennyson put it, "come my friends, tis not too late to seek a newer world". There is still time for optimism to defeat cynicism, for philanthropy to defeat misanthropy. :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

It should be funded by closing tax loopholes and progressive use of the taxation system. Corbyn today talked about doing just that. Remember, we managed to find £180 billion overnight to bail out the banks in 2008, yet we can't give hard pressed families and communities the public services they desperately need? Of course we can. The old Tory trope about public spending being impossible to fund was shattered during the financial crisis; the alchemy that is money creation was laid bare. Tony Benn used to say that no government in history has ever said they have no money for a war, and, as he brilliantly pout it, "if we can always find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people". They can never use the 'magic money tree' nonsense again. A magic money tree was found overnight to save banks that had acted criminally, and of course not one banker was held responsible in the courts. The last decade of hard right economics has done enormous economic damage.


As for Tory proposals, well, what are they?

Leave the EU by 31st October, even without a trade deal.

I remember Johnson, outside Downing Street, pledging to get broadband access to all parts of the UK. Great; hardly earth shattering, but welcome.

He promised 20,000 extras police officers. Fantastic, credit where it's due, only the Tories have cut police numbers by 40,000 since 2010.

He said something about infrastructure, but gave no concrete plans.

He mentioned tax cuts, but again no figures.

What else is he proposing?


Working and middle class people need to weigh up the policies and decide whether trickle down economics really works for them and their community. The race to the bottom of poverty pay, insecure work, and public service cuts. Think about the impact of leaving the EU with no trade deal. Think about whether Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Patel and what remains of the hard right of the Tory Party, now the pro-Europeans have been purged, cares about their family.

Take the fight to them with a positive, progressive agenda and constantly contrast it with the Tory commitment to supply side fallacies which have left us with food banks, increasing levels of poverty, a million people without a permanent home, a huge increase in homelessness, public services which are crumbling, benefit sanctions and the demonization of the poorest and weakest.

It all comes to down to the type of society and planet people want for their children. Be bold, take on the right wing media when it comes to funding, and constantly challenge the Tory record since 2010. As Tennyson put it, "come my friends, tis not too late to seek a newer world". There is still time for optimism to defeat cynicism, for philanthropy to defeat misanthropy. :agree:

Love the fact you quoted Tennyson, thank you for raising the debate.

I don’t think we are on different pages, or at least not too many pages apart. I think we are in agreement on the falsehood of trickle down economics. I also think a lot of arguments Ed Miliband made have now been won, but he was too late and too out manoeuvred to reap the victory.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Love the fact you quoted Tennyson, thank you for raising the debate.

I don’t think we are on different pages, or at least not too many pages apart. I think we are in agreement on the falsehood of trickle down economics. I also think a lot of arguments Ed Miliband made have now been won, but he was too late and too out manoeuvred to reap the victory.

Tennyson's Ulysses is a favourite of mine. Not in the class of Homer's epic of the same name, but a good effort :greengrin

You're a Labour supporter, I'm not, but there are large areas of agreement that can be found on the left. My family have been Labour voters since the party was founded; when I was growing up it was Blair's neoliberal 'third way' and the Iraq war which convinced me Labour wasn't for me, and I've always voted Green and then joined. Corbyn's policies are much more my thing, and, though I will still vote Green, I would of course prefer a Labour government to a Tory one.

[G B Young]

It should be funded by closing tax loopholes and progressive use of the taxation system. Corbyn today talked about doing just that. Remember, we managed to find £180 billion overnight to bail out the banks in 2008, yet we can't give hard pressed families and communities the public services they desperately need? Of course we can. The old Tory trope about public spending being impossible to fund was shattered during the financial crisis; the alchemy that is money creation was laid bare. Tony Benn used to say that no government in history has ever said they have no money for a war, and, as he brilliantly pout it, "if we can always find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people". They can never use the 'magic money tree' nonsense again. A magic money tree was found overnight to save banks that had acted criminally, and of course not one banker was held responsible in the courts. The last decade of hard right economics has done enormous economic damage.


As for Tory proposals, well, what are they?

Leave the EU by 31st October, even without a trade deal.

I remember Johnson, outside Downing Street, pledging to get broadband access to all parts of the UK. Great; hardly earth shattering, but welcome.

He promised 20,000 extras police officers. Fantastic, credit where it's due, only the Tories have cut police numbers by 40,000 since 2010.

He said something about infrastructure, but gave no concrete plans.

He mentioned tax cuts, but again no figures.

What else is he proposing?



More than £13 billion pledged towards health and education earlier this month by Javid among a range of other initiatives IIRC. Can't be a bad thing.

[Ozyhibby]

More than £13 billion pledged towards health and education earlier this month by Javid among a range of other initiatives IIRC. Can't be a bad thing.

And the 2.7m landlords in the uk may not be keen on risking having their property confiscated by voting Labour even if they are so inclined.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

More than £13 billion pledged towards health and education earlier this month by Javid among a range of other initiatives IIRC. Can't be a bad thing.

Of course any improvement is welcome, but, as with police numbers, the spending promised doesn't even return us to 2008 levels. It's tinkering with neoliberalism; a bag of sweeties ahead of an election which can be confiscated at any time, when what we need is a fundamentally new approach.

[Sylar]

Which one of you are at the Labour Party Conference wearing a Hibs top???

[Willis1875]

Which one of you are at the Labour Party Conference wearing a Hibs top???

😂 Just spied that aswell

[Helensburghhibs]

Which one of you are at the Labour Party Conference wearing a Hibs top???

When you are keen to go. To killie but politics make time tight 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Which one of you are at the Labour Party Conference wearing a Hibs top???

Did he look like he had been through a tornado?

[degenerated]

Corbyn's message to Scotland appears to be that he likes what @thesnp has delivered in Scotland on free personal care, free tuition and free prescriptions so he's going to do the same down south.

Going to be challenging for Scottish labour as they have always been banging on about these things being benefits for the middle class

[marinello59]

Going to be challenging for Scottish labour as they have always been banging on about these things being benefits for the middle class

I don’t think free personal care will be a problem given that it was Labour who introduced it in Scotland.

[ronaldo7]

They said that at the last general election. I simply think that analysis is wrong and policy announcements like today's, which will benefit the vast majority, will be very popular. What he can't do is control the right wing press, which is using all its black arts against him and creating the usual scare stories and blatant lies.

Labour manifesto includes:

Free childcare for all
Abolition of zero hour contracts
A public owned drug manufacturer
A national investment bank
Ending benefit sanctions
Public house building programme
Free prescriptions

Tory manifesto includes:

Austerity
Hard Brexit
Tax cuts for the richest



Which would most people choose?

Maybe they could chisel it into stone. That might work. 🔨

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Which one of you are at the Labour Party Conference wearing a Hibs top???

Big G?

[Smartie]

Good grief.

Is one shambolic, leaderless, disorganised, lost cause in your life not enough?

Edit - lost cause is a bit strong. Institutions that could both benefit from the removal of a man in a key position possibly a bit more accurate.

[heretoday]

At last a Labour Party is putting forward Labour policies.
I just wish a more electable leader was in place.

[Colr]

Labour MP quoted as describing the party’s brexit strategy as like having a fork in a land of soup!

[Mon Dieu4]

Labour MP quoted as describing the party’s brexit strategy as like having a fork in a land of soup!

Noel Gallagher said that about Liam years ago

[Colr]

Noel Gallagher said that about Liam years ago

God!! Politicians can’t even come up with their own witticisms these days!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh dear. 😁


Labour can only contest 26 of the 59 Scottish Westminster seats

There are no Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidates (PPCs) for 33 seats in Scotland!!!

NO LABOUR CANDIDATE IN 33 OF SCOTLAND'S WESTMINSTER CONSTITUENCIES https://t.co/bi1HKjqJ9L via @wordpressdotcom

[Ozyhibby]

Oh dear. [emoji16]


Labour can only contest 26 of the 59 Scottish Westminster seats

There are no Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidates (PPCs) for 33 seats in Scotland!!!

NO LABOUR CANDIDATE IN 33 OF SCOTLAND'S WESTMINSTER CONSTITUENCIES https://t.co/bi1HKjqJ9L via @wordpressdotcom

Jo Swinson’s fault. Nap.


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[CloudSquall]

Oh dear. 😁


Labour can only contest 26 of the 59 Scottish Westminster seats

There are no Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidates (PPCs) for 33 seats in Scotland!!!

NO LABOUR CANDIDATE IN 33 OF SCOTLAND'S WESTMINSTER CONSTITUENCIES https://t.co/bi1HKjqJ9L via @wordpressdotcom

Crazy to think how far Labour have fallen in 12-13 years, no one could have predicted it.

[Ozyhibby]

Crazy to think how far Labour have fallen in 12-13 years, no one could have predicted it.

Forming an alliance with the Tories was not a good idea. Who knew? [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cataplana]

I am very interested in Labour's proposal to form a state owned pharmaceutical company, which will produce and supply generic medications for the NHS.

I can't see BigPharm taking it lieing down, and they are probably funding opposition to Labour big style.

I wonder what other radical proposals are bring hidden under the smokescreen of vitriol aimed at them. The Tories are as big a basket case.

Follow the money.

[weecounty hibby]

I am very interested in Labour's proposal to form a state owned pharmaceutical company, which will produce and supply generic medications for the NHS.

I can't see BigPharm taking it lieing down, and they are probably funding opposition to Labour big style.

I wonder what other radical proposals are bring hidden under the smokescreen of vitriol aimed at them. The Tories are as big a basket case.

Follow the money.
It is an interesting proposal but the issue is that generic medication is already made and sold very cheaply. Go and check out how little you have to pay for paracetamol. The high value ones are the newer ones, the more complex medicines and the ones still under patent. I can't see how they can get round patent law on a lot of these
Edit. Part of the problem is doctors prescribing these cheap medicines. I have seen on prescriptions basic painkillers that would cost pennies where if prescribed the cost will jump massively

[Cataplana]

It is an interesting proposal but the issue is that generic medication is already made and sold very cheaply. Go and check out how little you have to pay for paracetamol. The high value ones are the newer ones, the more complex medicines and the ones still under patent. I can't see how they can get round patent law on a lot of these
Edit. Part of the problem is doctors prescribing these cheap medicines. I have seen on prescriptions basic painkillers that would cost pennies where if prescribed the cost will jump massively

I agree generics are pretty cheap at the moment. I'd like to see more detail on their proposal , but at least they are thinking about it.

I think BigPharm would claw back losses, by putting a bigger premium on medicine which is still under patent.

I would also anticipate heavier marketing of non generic alternatives, and lots of scare stories about generic drugs, such as the one we have just seen on Zantac.

[Colr]

Edit. Part of the problem is doctors prescribing these cheap medicines. I have seen on prescriptions basic painkillers that would cost pennies where if prescribed the cost will jump massively

Why is that, do you think?

[Hibbyradge]

Why is that, do you think?

That's an interesting question.

I think some people feel that they've been properly diagnosed and treated if they leave the surgery with a piece of paper in their hands.

Maybe the patients pressurise the GP for a prescription because they have an exemption so they get even cheap over the counter medication for free.

Maybe there's a lack of information as to which medications are cheaply available.

:dunno:

I play golf with a number of retired GPs so I'll ask that question next week.

[Just Alf]

That's an interesting question.

I think some people feel that they've been properly diagnosed and treated if they leave the surgery with a piece of paper in their hands.

Maybe the patients pressurise the GP for a prescription because they have an exemption so they get even cheap over the counter medication for free.

Maybe there's a lack of information as to which medications are cheaply available.

:dunno:

I play golf with a number of retired GPs so I'll ask that question next week.My wife is prescribed, amongst a lot of other things, a LOT of paracetamol, one time when we ran out on holiday I had to travel around a number of places to buy it as no one place would sell me enough. :-(



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[Peevemor]

I am very interested in Labour's proposal to form a state owned pharmaceutical company, which will produce and supply generic medications for the NHS.

I can't see BigPharm taking it lieing down, and they are probably funding opposition to Labour big style.

I wonder what other radical proposals are bring hidden under the smokescreen of vitriol aimed at them. The Tories are as big a basket case.

Follow the money.In France there's no fixed price for prescriptions. Chemist's are paid directly by the state with, in the majority of cases, private health insurance paying a large part. Since 2015 doctors have been instructed to prescribe medication by it's scientific name as opposed using trade names and chemists are obliged, where possible/applicable, to issue geneneric products.

The pharmaceutical companies are still going strong.

[RyeSloan]

That's an interesting question.

I think some people feel that they've been properly diagnosed and treated if they leave the surgery with a piece of paper in their hands.

Maybe the patients pressurise the GP for a prescription because they have an exemption so they get even cheap over the counter medication for free.

Maybe there's a lack of information as to which medications are cheaply available.

:dunno:

I play golf with a number of retired GPs so I'll ask that question next week.

I think it’s related to the reimbursement costs to pharmacies rather than the prices charged for the drug.

[Hibbyradge]

My wife is prescribed, amongst a lot of other things, a LOT of paracetamol, one time when we ran out on holiday I had to travel around a number of places to buy it as no one place would sell me enough. :-(



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That makes sense. Obviously there isn't a stronger painkiller that your wife can use.

[Colr]

Interesting moves in London PPC selections of late. Momentum attempts at ousting non-left wing MPs failing mostly and centrist candidates like Andrew Adonis looking to take decent seats.

Ham fisted attempt by the leadership to ban a candidate leading against Corbyn’s old campaign advisor blowing up and looking bad for them.

Interesting!

[Hibbyradge]

I think it’s related to the reimbursement costs to pharmacies rather than the prices charged for the drug.

Yes, but a prescription in E&W costs £8 ish.

You could buy 800 paracetamol for that from ASDA (if you were allowed to) and they still make a profit.

[Colr]

Yes, but a prescription in E&W costs £8 ish.

You could buy 800 paracetamol for that from ASDA (if you were allowed to) and they still make a profit.

So admin and other on-costs, then?

[Hibbyradge]

So admin and other on-costs, then?

I've no idea, but the question was why do doctors prescribe medication which is cheaper to buy OTC.

[Colr]

I've no idea, but the question was why do doctors prescribe medication which is cheaper to buy OTC.

An example of the state being less efficient than the market.

The US system shows the opposite.

It’s almost as if a pragmatic mixed economy is a better approach than dogmatism

[Ozyhibby]

GP’s get healthy kick backs from drug companies to prescribe their brands.



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[RyeSloan]

GP’s get healthy kick backs from drug companies to prescribe their brands.



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Is there such a thing as branded paracetamol?

[Ozyhibby]

Is there such a thing as branded paracetamol?

Panadol?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191005/0c569d84f0703950ca7916e6dd4f7832.jpg


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[jonty]

Panadol?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191005/0c569d84f0703950ca7916e6dd4f7832.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.chemist-4-u.com/

30 Loratadine tablets - 70p

https://www.chemist-4-u.com/loratadine-10mg-tablets-x-30-p-brand-received-may-vary
Branded products can be found cheaper, but theres still massive savings to be had.

[Smartie]

The NHS is sadly quite easy to abuse and it is so regularly by politicians (especially), clinicians and patients.

Patients put a lot of pressure on doctors every day to do things they shouldn't and every now and again they will show weakness. My dad is an (almost retired) GP who brought us up with a fair amount of "tough love". He is a Fifer, occasionally abrasive, but not afraid to say it who it is.Sadly, GPs who stand their ground attract complaints - this can be anything from refusing to inappropriately prescribe antibiotics to advising people to pay for their own over the counter painkillers. GPs who buckle and do what patients tell them to get an easy life (for a while anyway - poor decision making rarely comes without consequences further down the line).

Politely refusing to prescribe such medications and telling patients they're better off buying it for 25p when they can have someone else pay £8 for it can quickly lead to a standing row - something you don't want with a waiting room full of patients, less than 10 minutes to spend with each of them and some genuinely ill people in need of attention, time, expertise and resource amongst them.

[Glory Lurker]

Interesting moves in London PPC selections of late. Momentum attempts at ousting non-left wing MPs failing mostly and centrist candidates like Andrew Adonis looking to take decent seats.

Ham fisted attempt by the leadership to ban a candidate leading against Corbyn’s old campaign advisor blowing up and looking bad for them.

Interesting!

Momentum are radge bams, but the "centrist" "left" are why we've got Trump and Brexit.

[Cataplana]

The NHS is sadly quite easy to abuse and it is so regularly by politicians (especially), clinicians and patients.

Patients put a lot of pressure on doctors every day to do things they shouldn't and every now and again they will show weakness. My dad is an (almost retired) GP who brought us up with a fair amount of "tough love". He is a Fifer, occasionally abrasive, but not afraid to say it who it is.Sadly, GPs who stand their ground attract complaints - this can be anything from refusing to inappropriately prescribe antibiotics to advising people to pay for their own over the counter painkillers. GPs who buckle and do what patients tell them to get an easy life (for a while anyway - poor decision making rarely comes without consequences further down the line).

Politely refusing to prescribe such medications and telling patients they're better off buying it for 25p when they can have someone else pay £8 for it can quickly lead to a standing row - something you don't want with a waiting room full of patients, less than 10 minutes to spend with each of them and some genuinely ill people in need of attention, time, expertise and resource amongst them.

It would be interesting to compare the amount of drugs picked up on repeat prescription in Scotland, compared to England. I suspect that having to pay for your drugs makes you more inclined to get the prescription stopped if they are not necessary.

Again, it's only a suspicion, but I think over prescription of medicine like Pregabalin means there is a surplus in the community, and they are being used as currency. Scotland seems to have many more deaths due to abuse of prescription drugs than England.

[Hibbyradge]

It would be interesting to compare the amount of drugs picked up on repeat prescription in Scotland, compared to England. I suspect that having to pay for your drugs makes you more inclined to get the prescription stopped if they are not necessary.

Again, it's only a suspicion, but I think over prescription of medicine like Pregabalin means there is a surplus in the community, and they are being used as currency. Scotland seems to have many more deaths due to abuse of prescription drugs than England.

Repeat prescriptions are a thing of the past here. They stopped in September. You need to request your prescription every month.

I'm not sure if that applies across the whole of England and Wales but I suspect it does.

This move alone will save the NHS hundreds of millions every year. My local pharmacist says they get bags and bags of unused medication returned every month. Add to that all the stuff that just gets binned and it's easy to understand the decision.

People do love the NHS, but even if they're not stealing from it, which some people are, they don't half take it for granted.

[Moulin Yarns]

Repeat prescriptions are a thing of the past here. They stopped in September. You need to request your prescription every month.

I'm not sure if that applies across the whole of England and Wales but I suspect it does.

This move alone will save the NHS hundreds of millions every year. My local pharmacist says they get bags and bags of unused medication returned every month. Add to that all the stuff that just gets binned and it's easy to understand the decision.

People do love the NHS, but even if they're not stealing from it, which some people are, they don't half take it for granted.

Are you sure? My sister in law is in West Yorkshire, had thyroid cancer and gets repeated thyroxine prescription. For life, can't live without it.

[Hibbyradge]

I should add, it costs only £104 for an annual prescription exemption certificate. Individual prescriptions now cost £9 so that's all anyone on 1 or more regular medications will pay.

Not free, but still very good. I wish people would protect the service by using it responsibly.

Does that make me right wing?

[Hibbyradge]

Are you sure? My sister in law is in West Yorkshire, had thyroid cancer and gets repeated thyroxine prescription. For life, can't live without it.

I'm 100% certain. I'm in Vale of York CCG. Maybe West Yorkshire is different.

https://www.valeofyorkccg.nhs.uk/your-health/changes-to-repeat-prescriptions-how-to-order/

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe your sister in law is covered by this clause;

"If you receive your medication in a monitored dosage system, for example a dosette box or a blister pack, this change will not affect you."

[Cataplana]

Repeat prescriptions are a thing of the past here. They stopped in September. You need to request your prescription every month.

I'm not sure if that applies across the whole of England and Wales but I suspect it does.

This move alone will save the NHS hundreds of millions every year. My local pharmacist says they get bags and bags of unused medication returned every month. Add to that all the stuff that just gets binned and it's easy to understand the decision.

People do love the NHS, but even if they're not stealing from it, which some people are, they don't half take it for granted.

When Bevan brought in the NHS, he wanted people to have the best. What he didn't envisage is that it would be all some people have, and that they would milk it for all it is worth.

[Moulin Yarns]

When Bevan brought in the NHS, he wanted people to have the best. What he didn't envisage is that it would be all some people have, and that they would milk it for all it is worth.

You've obviously never had to clean out an elderly relatives house after they have died. That's where the majority of returned medicines are found.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Interesting moves in London PPC selections of late. Momentum attempts at ousting non-left wing MPs failing mostly and centrist candidates like Andrew Adonis looking to take decent seats.

Ham fisted attempt by the leadership to ban a candidate leading against Corbyn’s old campaign advisor blowing up and looking bad for them.

Interesting!



Margaret Hodge is in their sights, labour friends of israel had to cancel their stall at the recent conference due to the level of abuse aimed at them, i wonder which group gave them the most abuse, and Corbyn certainly wont do anything about it

[Cataplana]

I should add, it costs only £104 for an annual prescription exemption certificate. Individual prescriptions now cost £9 so that's all anyone on 1 or more regular medications will pay.

Not free, but still very good. I wish people would protect the service by using it responsibly.

Does that make me right wing?

Think about who ultimately benefits from people collecting medication they don't need.

I woukdnt call cutting BigPharm's profits right wing. Go yourself Wolfie, Power to the People!

[JeMeSouviens]

Potentially significant power jostling in Labour as Karie Murphy (a key Len McLuskey ally and, along with Seamus Milne, one of the biggest obstacles to Lab going full Remain) has been elbowed aside out of Corbyn's team.