The future of the Labour Party

[Hibrandenburg]

LOL, I might be a dafty but that Labour vote is heading right where I said it would, down to the levels of the SWP.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190802/f28535753507296f2470b9474cc4eee6.jpg
Although they lost the seat, last night was decent for the Tories. To win the seat the Lib Dem’s needed Plaid and the greens to stand down which won’t be repeated at a general election.
Johnson and his advisors will be looking at that and thinking, with Labour vote collapsing, that they have a chance in a GE.


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That should be sending shockwaves through the Labour party. Labour were never going to win but to collapse to 5.3% of the vote in Wales is mental. How much longer will members watch the party crash and burn whilst Corbyn continues to fiddle the Internationale? Especially at this time, Boris Johnson should be having to make compromises to the left to secure votes for the Tories. Instead we are now in a situation where the most right-wing conservative government in my lifetime will have to lurch even further right to win back votes from the Brexit Party. The country has gone mad.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190802/04a7b3e94ae4395b59954e707b504201.jpg
Corbyn’s by-election record is horrendous for an opposition party.


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[CloudSquall]

Boris must fancy his chances if he goes further right and picks up the majority of Brexit Party votes while Labour and lib Dems split the Remain vote.

[heretoday]

Maybe the SNP should stand in England and Wales.

If it didn't win the election it would surely make a better attempt at being an opposition.

There were folk suggesting just that thing before the last election. I think it was the Sturgeon factor more than anything.

[ronaldo7]

That should be sending shockwaves through the Labour party. Labour were never going to win but to collapse to 5.3% of the vote in Wales is mental. How much longer will members watch the party crash and burn whilst Corbyn continues to fiddle the Internationale? Especially at this time, Boris Johnson should be having to make compromises to the left to secure votes for the Tories. Instead we are now in a situation where the most right-wing conservative government in my lifetime will have to lurch even further right to win back votes from the Brexit Party. The country has gone mad.

Labour smash the, Monster raving looney party into 5th place.

I had hope for Corbyn, but he's out of his depth imo.

[G B Young]

Would have lost their deposit if they’d got below 5%.

For the biggest party in Wales that is mind-boggling. They only got 4% more of the vote than the Monster Raving Looney Party.

Sure, they were never going to come close to winning the seat but while Boris can at least console himself with the fact that had the Brexit Party not fielded a candidate the Tories would likely have won, Labour have no such life raft to cling to. As others have said, if Corbyn had any intelligence he'd stand down for the good of his party and to give them some electoral credibility - although it may already be too late for that given that the Lib Dems have moved firmly into pole position as the party of Remain.

Johnson has already wiped the floor with Corbyn in the Commons, will only continue to do so after the summer recess and, should he manage to get the UK out of Europe as promised, he'll be odds-on to crush Labour in a spring 2020 election.

[Colr]

But the Labour party will still not learn from that. They will still blame the right wingers within the party and the nasty Tory press. Anything but actually looking at the facts that they have a poor leader who no one trusts and a confused policy on Brexit amongst other things. See posts above for evidence

Magic Grandad is right. He has always been right. It’s the world that needs to change.

[JeMeSouviens]

For the biggest party in Wales that is mind-boggling. They only got 4% more of the vote than the Monster Raving Looney Party.

Sure, they were never going to come close to winning the seat but while Boris can at least console himself with the fact that had the Brexit Party not fielded a candidate the Tories would likely have won, Labour have no such life raft to cling to. As others have said, if Corbyn had any intelligence he'd stand down for the good of his party and to give them some electoral credibility - although it may already be too late for that given that the Lib Dems have moved firmly into pole position as the party of Remain.

Johnson has already wiped the floor with Corbyn in the Commons, will only continue to do so after the summer recess and, should he manage to get the UK out of Europe as promised, he'll be odds-on to crush Labour in a spring 2020 election.

To be fair, it's not exactly a Labour heartland, they usually get around 15% in this constituency.

Tactical anti-Brexit switchers to Libs should definitely worry them though.

[Colr]

LOL, I might be a dafty but that Labour vote is heading right where I said it would, down to the levels of the SWP.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190802/f28535753507296f2470b9474cc4eee6.jpg
Although they lost the seat, last night was decent for the Tories. To win the seat the Lib Dem’s needed Plaid and the greens to stand down which won’t be repeated at a general election.
Johnson and his advisors will be looking at that and thinking, with Labour vote collapsing, that they have a chance in a GE.


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If they deliver Brexit, the Farage vote will go straight back to them.

I don’t like it but it looks as if going with Johnson was the right think to do for them.

[Colr]

For the biggest party in Wales that is mind-boggling. They only got 4% more of the vote than the Monster Raving Looney Party.

Sure, they were never going to come close to winning the seat but while Boris can at least console himself with the fact that had the Brexit Party not fielded a candidate the Tories would likely have won, Labour have no such life raft to cling to. As others have said, if Corbyn had any intelligence he'd stand down for the good of his party and to give them some electoral credibility - although it may already be too late for that given that the Lib Dems have moved firmly into pole position as the party of Remain.

Johnson has already wiped the floor with Corbyn in the Commons, will only continue to do so after the summer recess and, should he manage to get the UK out of Europe as promised, he'll be odds-on to crush Labour in a spring 2020 election.

It also shows that the Libs, Greens should cooperate with each other but NOT labour

[G B Young]

To be fair, it's not exactly a Labour heartland, they usually get around 15% in this constituency.

Tactical anti-Brexit switchers to Libs should definitely worry them though.

Agreed, although it's still a pretty humiliating drop-off to fourth place and only 5% of the vote. It would be reasonable IMHO to suggest that there's more than just tactical voting at play and that Corbyn's unelectability is now a significant factor for voters.

[JeMeSouviens]

Agreed, although it's still a pretty humiliating drop-off to fourth place and only 5% of the vote. It would be reasonable IMHO to suggest that there's more than just tactical voting at play and that Corbyn's unelectability is now a significant factor for voters.

Yeah, that too.

[Ozyhibby]

If they deliver Brexit, the Farage vote will go straight back to them.

I don’t like it but it looks as if going with Johnson was the right think to do for them.

Delivering brexit still looks almost impossible from here.


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[Colr]

Delivering brexit still looks almost impossible from here.


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Only if you consider the consequences!!

What's the betting that Corbyn wants to take us through Schumpeter's Gale as well as it's a left wing concept.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Lucky kick on amigo. The RMT will re affiliate to Labour. I had many good comrades in ASLEF

[GORDONSMITH7]

It also shows that the Libs, Greens should cooperate with each other but NOT labour

I think that the Liberals have shown that they cooperate better with the Tories don't you think.Look at Tory light Jo Swinton's voting record while helping the real Tories, in coalition, inflict the brutal so called austerity measures. Their latest surge is based on a single issue and I predict will be ephemeral. I am old enough to remember David Steel after a by election victory telling Liberals to get to work to prepare for power. Oh really, O'Reilly.

BIG G

[Colr]

I think that the Liberals have shown that they cooperate better with the Tories don't you think.Look at Tory light Jo Swinton's voting record while helping the real Tories, in coalition, inflict the brutal so called austerity measures. Their latest surge is based on a single issue and I predict will be ephemeral. I am old enough to remember David Steel after a by election victory telling Liberals to get to work to prepare for power. Oh really,O'Reilly.

BIG G

Labour make a lot of the Liberals voting record in coalition. Its a fair target as it shows how limited their influence was. I don’t think they’ll do it again as it has damages their reputation and opens them to the accusation that they enables austerity which is probably fair criticism.

When Brexit happens, Corbyn will have enabled that and Labour will find that hard to shake off as well.

[Hibbyradge]

I think that the Liberals have shown that they cooperate better with the Tories don't you think.Look at Tory light Jo Swinton's voting record while helping the real Tories, in coalition, inflict the brutal so called austerity measures. Their latest surge is based on a single issue and I predict will be ephemeral. I am old enough to remember David Steel after a by election victory telling Liberals to get to work to prepare for power. Oh really, O'Reilly.

BIG G

I wish Labour were enjoying a surge in popularity, ephermal or otherwise.

Unfortunately with Corbyn at the helm, that hope is forlorn.

If Hibs had a manager who fully believed in the "Hibs way", talked a good game and bled green, but wasn't winning, he'd be dumped quicker than you could say "Franck Sauzee".

However, in the case of the Labour Party, it seems purity and principles are more important than actually achieving anything.

[Hibbyradge]

I saw this on Twitter;

"9 days in the job and Boris Johnson has so far: tanked the pound; lost a by-election; squandered Billions on a No-Deal Brexit no-one voted for; and toured the UK prompting widespread calls for its break-up.

So, I expect Labour is now making big gains in the polls...?"

[Just Jimmy]

Tell me where i'm wrong then? Go on.

What's the great Yvette Cooper going to do if she becomes PM? She going to wave a magic wand that keeps the UK in the EU without creating a major backlash?

How is she going to achieve that? Please tell me.you can't fix anything from the opposite side of the house. politics is about winning elections, if you don't win you can't do a damn thing.

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[GORDONSMITH7]

I will be back to this thread when as I predict Labour are in power (possibility in coalition with the left leaning SNP) as opposed to Tory light Liberals. DIALECTICS google and take a deep breath. I am meanwhile off to ER. now to buy splendid tops for my grandkids and go to the game with them. Oz, Colr,Young your plans ?

BIG G

[Colr]

I will be back to this thread when as I predict Labour are in power (possibility in coalition with the left leaning SNP) as opposed to Tory light Liberals. DIALECTICS google and take a deep breath. I am meanwhile off to ER. now to buy splendid tops for my grandkids and go to the game with them. Oz, Colr,Young your plans ?

BIG G

Off to Buildbase to look for doors.

[G B Young]

I will be back to this thread when as I predict Labour are in power (possibility in coalition with the left leaning SNP) as opposed to Tory light Liberals. DIALECTICS google and take a deep breath. I am meanwhile off to ER. now to buy splendid tops for my grandkids and go to the game with them. Oz, Colr,Young your plans ?

BIG G

Was working yesterday. What did you think of Hibs? A work in progress or cause for concern?

Scottish Labour now 'small and irrelevant' I see...

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17815117.former-scottish-labour-minister-admits-party-39-small-irrelevant-39/

[G B Young]

The disconnect between Labour's Islington branch and Scottish Labour widens:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/labour-independence-row-as-richard-leonard-rejects-claim-party-wouldn-t-block-referendum-1-4978394

Leonard may be powder puff but Corbyn and McDonnell are clueless about Scotland, hence the fact Corbynism failed to even register north of the border.

[Fife-Hibee]

This little squabble between London Labour and their northern British branch is rather quite amusing.

If London Labour can work out how democracy works, then why can't their northern British branch?

[weecounty hibby]

Hopefully this leads to a Scottish Labour Party that is separate from the UK Labour Party. In time if that happened I believe they would eventually back independence as I think they would end up as the main party of government within an Independent Scotland, much like the Tories are in England

[Colr]

Hopefully this leads to a Scottish Labour Party that is separate from the UK Labour Party. In time if that happened I believe they would eventually back independence as I think they would end up as the main party of government within an Independent Scotland, much like the Tories are in England

Distinct identities are crucial. Tories realised this eventually although their pissing the recent successful work up the wall at the moment.

[Fife-Hibee]

How can Richard Leonard (leader of the Scottish Labour branch for those who have never heard of him) sit in front of a camera and state unchalleneged that "Scotland doesn't want another independence referendum", a clip that the BBC can then play back over and over again to reinforce the idea that Scotland doesn't want another one?

Why is that allowed to happen?

[mjhibby]

Boris must fancy his chances if he goes further right and picks up the majority of Brexit Party votes while Labour and lib Dems split the Remain vote.

I wonder if labour and the lib Dems might be sensible and not contest constituency's where the party with the lower vote could stop the other party winning the seat. Would stop Boris winning a majority. I doubt it but if they don't the Tories will hoover up the brexit vote and get a majority. Drastic times need drastic measures.

[Fife-Hibee]

I wonder if labour and the lib Dems might be sensible and not contest constituency's where the party with the lower vote could stop the other party winning the seat. Would stop Boris winning a majority. I doubt it but if they don't the Tories will hoover up the brexit vote and get a majority. Drastic times need drastic measures.

Nope. Jo Swinson has made it very clear that they won't work with Labour to prevent a NO deal brexit. Instead they're telling traditional Labour voters to vote Lib Dem instead. Creating the split they want.

[mjhibby]

Nope. Jo Swinson has made it very clear that they won't work with Labour to prevent a NO deal brexit. Instead they're telling traditional Labour voters to vote Lib Dem instead. Creating the split they want.

She is deluded if she thinks that will happen. You'd like to think folk would vote tactically but I doubt it. She getting carried away with a by-election result where everything went for them. If she really wants to put the country first then she has to think outside the box. If their intransigence inflicts Boris on the country they should be ashamed. This is a unique situation we are in and if we go bail out with no deal then a lot of brexit voters will vote for Boris. After three years of absolute political shenanigans we need to get the Tories out by whatever means. A few targeted seats could make a huge difference. The election will be seen as the second referendum. The only way to stop Boris is to unite the remain vote.

[HiBremian]

How can Richard Leonard (leader of the Scottish Labour branch for those who have never heard of him) sit in front of a camera and state unchalleneged that "Scotland doesn't want another independence referendum", a clip that the BBC can then play back over and over again to reinforce the idea that Scotland doesn't want another one?

Why is that allowed to happen?

Watched Reporting Scotland tonight for the first time in months. News for 7 year olds. Something as obvious as asking “what happens when Scotland DOES want indyref2?” (as in now) is just too complicated for BBC Scotland.


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[Ozyhibby]

She is deluded if she thinks that will happen. You'd like to think folk would vote tactically but I doubt it. She getting carried away with a by-election result where everything went for them. If she really wants to put the country first then she has to think outside the box. If their intransigence inflicts Boris on the country they should be ashamed. This is a unique situation we are in and if we go bail out with no deal then a lot of brexit voters will vote for Boris. After three years of absolute political shenanigans we need to get the Tories out by whatever means. A few targeted seats could make a huge difference. The election will be seen as the second referendum. The only way to stop Boris is to unite the remain vote.

The Lib Dem’s would do a deal, it’s Labour who won’t.


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[GORDONSMITH7]

Labour make a lot of the Liberals voting record in coalition. Its a fair target as it shows how limited their influence was. I don’t think they’ll do it again as it has damages their reputation and opens them to the accusation that they enables austerity which is probably fair criticism.

When Brexit happens, Corbyn will have enabled that and Labour will find that hard to shake off as well.

Tory light barstewards were complicit in hammering into the ground,people including disabled people. Working people will not forgive them for their involvement with the Tories in screwing folk. Austerity what a misnamed attack to pay for the crisis of banks to bail them out, have they ever experienced for a moment their actions including plumb in the mooth and worst offender Swinton.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

The Lib Dem’s would do a deal, it’s Labour who won’t.


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Why should they who collaberated with Tories to batter workers and their families. See my previous post about a possible Labour/SNP anti Right wing Tory Government. I said it on here first. If it does the usuals on here, can buy me a pint in the Hibs Club or Tamsons. I won't miss you.

BIG G

[Mibbes Aye]

Tory light barstewards were complicit in hammering into the ground,people including disabled people. Working people will not forgive them for their involvement with the Tories in screwing folk. Austerity what a misnamed attack to pay for the crisis of banks to bail them out, have they ever experienced for a moment their actions including plumb in the mooth and worst offender Swinton.

BIG G

No offence but you really are a slaver.

You roll in here with your ‘neoliberal Blairites’ this and ‘Tory light barstewards’ that. No attempt at debate, just some meaningless slogans and usually a cheap jibe at the poster you are quoting if you disagree with them.

And then some self-serving stuff about being a Labour Party member before Keir Hardie and some schtick about amigos and calling yourself Bomber. Up your game please, other folk make the effort.

I don’t really know Jo Swinson but dismissing her as ‘plumb in the mooth’ also makes you sound very embittered and angry. You do sound embittered and angry generally to be honest, but again, reducing it to personal attacks like that makes any point you are trying to make that so much weaker.

Perhaps most importantly, you calling people things like neoliberal Blairites suggests you have no understanding of either term, as there are fundamental contradictions between the two ideologies they represent. Maybe you heard someone else use the phrase and it sounded like a neat criticism but it is embarrassing that someone who I assume is trying to make what they feel are serious political points and can’t recognise the seismic differences between neoliberalism and Blairism.

What is more telling is that anyone would think it is relevant to even talk about Blairites in 2019, let alone as a pejorative term. The world moved on a long time ago. It feels like there are still some folk embittered that it took a centrist Labour leader to succeed electorally, just as it did with Wilson and just as it will almost certainly always do.

[GORDONSMITH7]

No offence but you really are a slaver.

You roll in here with your ‘neoliberal Blairites’ this and ‘Tory light barstewards’ that. No attempt at debate, just some meaningless slogans and usually a cheap jibe at the poster you are quoting if you disagree with them.

And then some self-serving stuff about being a Labour Party member before Keir Hardie and some schtick about amigos and calling yourself Bomber. Up your game please, other folk make the effort.

I don’t really know Jo Swinson but dismissing her as ‘plumb in the mooth’ also makes you sound very embittered and angry. You do sound embittered and angry generally to be honest, but again, reducing it to personal attacks like that makes any point you are trying to make that so much weaker.

Perhaps most importantly, you calling people things like neoliberal Blairites suggests you have no understanding of either term, as there are fundamental contradictions between the two ideologies they represent. Maybe you heard someone else use the phrase and it sounded like a neat criticism but it is embarrassing that someone who I assume is trying to make what they feel are serious political points and can’t recognise the seismic differences between neoliberalism and Blairism.

What is more telling is that anyone would think it is relevant to even talk about Blairites in 2019, let alone as a pejorative term. The world moved on a long time ago. It feels like there are still some folk embittered that it took a centrist Labour leader to succeed electorally, just as it did with Wilson and just as it will almost certainly always do.
The irony is not lost on me. The Blairites(or centrists, moderates as you and the scabby S**, Daily Mail, Express and other fun loving rags call them) who voted with Blair to support the illegal monstrous mass murder in Iraq and the subsequent rise of ISIS and are still in Parliament, all who voted in the vote of no confidence in Corbyn.
I have never used the term neoliberal Blairites on here or anywhere else. You made that rubbish up, didn't you. Disprove me. You cannot. I await your reply,however will not hold my breath. Make things up Maybe you cannae help yourself. Maybe no.
You don't really know Jo Swinton, quelle surprise,oh really, O'Reilly. neither do 99.999% of the population, however a 2 second google of her disgraceful voting record with the disgusting Tory Government whilst in Quisling coalition with them should set the record straight. Try it and get back to the progressives on here s'il vous plait.

F*** the Hearts.

BIG G

[Colr]

The irony is not lost on me. The Blairites(or centrists, moderates as you and the scabby S**, Daily Mail, Express and other fun loving rags call them) who voted with Blair to support the illegal monstrous mass murder in Iraq and the subsequent rise of ISIS and are still in Parliament, all who voted in the vote of no confidence in Corbyn.
I have never used the term neoliberal Blairites on here or anywhere else. You made that rubbish up, didn't you. Disprove me. You cannot. I await your reply,however will not hold my breath. Make things up Maybe you cannae help yourself. Maybe no.
You don't really know Jo Swinton, quelle surprise,oh really, O'Reilly. neither do 99.999% of the population, however a 2 second google of her disgraceful voting record with the disgusting Tory Government whilst in Quisling coalition with them should set the record straight. Try it and get back to the progressives on here s'il vous plait.

F*** the Hearts.

BIG G

Oh, yeh. Iraq.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's what "Red Tory" Tony Blair achieved;

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

We should add to that "Returned Trade Union rights to GCHQ and softened the Tory's anti union legislation".

Does that list mention the Good Friday Agreement at all?

How many of those things would have been done by a Conservative government?

[lapsedhibee]

Here's what "Red Tory" Tony Blair achieved;


Good Friday Agreement?
Edit - ah, already added. :agree:

[Hibbyradge]

Good Friday Agreement?
Edit - ah, already added. :agree:

👍

[G B Young]

Tory light barstewards were complicit in hammering into the ground,people including disabled people. Working people will not forgive them for their involvement with the Tories in screwing folk. Austerity what a misnamed attack to pay for the crisis of banks to bail them out, have they ever experienced for a moment their actions including plumb in the mooth and worst offender Swinton.

BIG G

You may know more about her than me but in what way is Jo Swinson 'plumb in the mooth' (by which I assume you mean 'posh')? I checked out her biog and she 'attended a state school in East Dunbartonshire'. Hardly on a par with, say, Eton educated Tam Dayell or the 'toff' background of Tony Benn, to cite a couple of Jeremy Corbyn's role models. Jeremy himself, as a quick scan of his early life reveals, enjoyed a distinctly upper middle class upbringing while his puppet master Seamus Milne is as 'plumb in the mooth' as they come, having boarded at the exclusive Winchester College.

Arch 'Blairite' Gordon Brown, incidentally, attended Kirkcaldy High School.

[JeMeSouviens]

You may know more about her than me but in what way is Jo Swinson 'plumb in the mooth' (by which I assume you mean 'posh')? I checked out her biog and she 'attended a state school in East Dunbartonshire'. Hardly on a par with, say, Eton educated Tam Dayell or the 'toff' background of Tony Benn, to cite a couple of Jeremy Corbyn's role models. Jeremy himself, as a quick scan of his early life reveals, enjoyed a distinctly upper middle class upbringing while his puppet master Seamus Milne is as 'plumb in the mooth' as they come, having boarded at the exclusive Winchester College.

Arch 'Blairite' Gordon Brown, incidentally, attended Kirkcaldy High School.

She does speak with an affected accent, whether that's a deliberate attempt to sound less Scots or just a by-product of living in England I don't know. Michael Gove is the same.

Corbyn's inner circle are mainly toffs turned Communists.

[ronaldo7]

You may know more about her than me but in what way is Jo Swinson 'plumb in the mooth' (by which I assume you mean 'posh')? I checked out her biog and she 'attended a state school in East Dunbartonshire'. Hardly on a par with, say, Eton educated Tam Dayell or the 'toff' background of Tony Benn, to cite a couple of Jeremy Corbyn's role models. Jeremy himself, as a quick scan of his early life reveals, enjoyed a distinctly upper middle class upbringing while his puppet master Seamus Milne is as 'plumb in the mooth' as they come, having boarded at the exclusive Winchester College.

Arch 'Blairite' Gordon Brown, incidentally, attended Kirkcaldy High School.

I took the plum in the mooth comment to mean get continual changing of dialect when speaking to different parts of the UK.

I've certainly noticed it.

[Hibbyradge]

I took the plum in the mooth comment to mean get continual changing of dialect when speaking to different parts of the UK.

I've certainly noticed it.

Erm, it turns out that I do that.

When I've been back in Edinburgh for a few days, which I am quite regularly, the guys I knock about with in York don't understand me when I return cos my accent gets broader again. :greengrin

Not exactly plumb in the mouth, likesay, but still.

[ronaldo7]

Erm, it turns out that I do that.

When I've been back in Edinburgh for a few days, which I am quite regularly, the guys I knock about with in York don't understand me when I return cos my accent gets broader again. :greengrin

Not exactly plumb in the mouth, likesay, but still.

Yours is more, foot in the mouth. 😲

[Fife-Hibee]

She does speak with an affected accent, whether that's a deliberate attempt to sound less Scots or just a by-product of living in England I don't know. Michael Gove is the same.

Corbyn's inner circle are mainly toffs turned Communists.

I heard they both went to the same speech school in order to sound more "British".

[Hibbyradge]

Yours is more, foot in the mouth. 😲

Sadly, this is often the case. 😥

[Mibbes Aye]

The irony is not lost on me. The Blairites(or centrists, moderates as you and the scabby S**, Daily Mail, Express and other fun loving rags call them) who voted with Blair to support the illegal monstrous mass murder in Iraq and the subsequent rise of ISIS and are still in Parliament, all who voted in the vote of no confidence in Corbyn.
I have never used the term neoliberal Blairites on here or anywhere else. You made that rubbish up, didn't you. Disprove me. You cannot. I await your reply,however will not hold my breath. Make things up Maybe you cannae help yourself. Maybe no.
You don't really know Jo Swinton, quelle surprise,oh really, O'Reilly. neither do 99.999% of the population, however a 2 second google of her disgraceful voting record with the disgusting Tory Government whilst in Quisling coalition with them should set the record straight. Try it and get back to the progressives on here s'il vous plait.

F*** the Hearts.

BIG G

I actually think it was Fife Hibee who used the exact phrase ‘neoliberal Blairites’ so I apologise for that. It is hard to distinguish between the two of you at times.

I will stand by every other word though and the main point especially, which is Labour would be in a lot better place if we didn’t have ideologues and obsessives who think using the word ‘Blairites’ is relevant or even pejorative in 2019.

It really is just bitterness that it took a centrist Labour leader to win elections, same as with Wilson. And winning elections led to the raft of positive that Hibbyradge just described.

[SHODAN]

Hopefully this leads to a Scottish Labour Party that is separate from the UK Labour Party. In time if that happened I believe they would eventually back independence as I think they would end up as the main party of government within an Independent Scotland, much like the Tories are in England

I've thought for a while now that the best way forward for Labour would be an independent "Democratic Socialist Party of Scotland" that sided with the rUK party in government etc but was neutral on independence (i.e. had no party line and members/representatives could say/vote as they like). Would reel in a lot of voters from all three of the other main parties - maybe even myself.

[Future17]

Erm, it turns out that I do that.

When I've been back in Edinburgh for a few days, which I am quite regularly, the guys I knock about with in York don't understand me when I return cos my accent gets broader again. :greengrin

Not exactly plumb in the mouth, likesay, but still.

I do it too; it's a positive as it means your brain is predisposed to adapting in order to communicate better with whoever you're talking to.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190808/389a3a0a6dc2f90b4e5e88e9fe4c9567.jpg

Corbyn’s masterplan working a treat (if your Boris Johnson).[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

I've thought for a while now that the best way forward for Labour would be an independent "Democratic Socialist Party of Scotland" that sided with the rUK party in government etc but was neutral on independence (i.e. had no party line and members/representatives could say/vote as they like). Would reel in a lot of voters from all three of the other main parties - maybe even myself.Always thought that as well, not that's its scientific but when I'm out to the pub or at a game with different groups of mates and this is discussed the majority feel like they're 'Scottish Labour voters in waiting' and are only voting SNP as a means to an end.

Still think the SNP would win the honeymoon election mind....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

I took the plum in the mooth comment to mean get continual changing of dialect when speaking to different parts of the UK.

I've certainly noticed it.

You may be right. Although the expression I'm more familiar with is 'bools in the mooth' rather than a plum - and I've always taken it to mean it's a way of talking associated with the upper classes.

Can't say I've listened to Swinson speaking very often. She strikes me as quite strident of tone, but as somebody else has pointed out it's maybe no bad thing to modify your accent depending on who you're addressing in order to put your message across as clearly as possible.

FWIW the Free Dictionary defines plum in the mouth as:

speak with a plum in (one's) mouthTo speak in a manner that is indicative of a high social class. Primarily heard in UK.He spoke with such a plum in his mouth that none of us working-class sods could stand to listen to him.

[ronaldo7]

I do it too; it's a positive as it means your brain is predisposed to adapting in order to communicate better with whoever you're talking to.

How's yer Oz, or how about yer Yankee? 😆

Do you do it when speaking to a group of Americans, new zealanders, Australians.

I'd guess not, unless I'm mistaken, of course.

The point about Swinson, is that she changes, daily. It's not really needed.

[ronaldo7]

No offence but you really are a slaver.

You roll in here with your ‘neoliberal Blairites’ this and ‘Tory light barstewards’ that. No attempt at debate, just some meaningless slogans and usually a cheap jibe at the poster you are quoting if you disagree with them.

And then some self-serving stuff about being a Labour Party member before Keir Hardie and some schtick about amigos and calling yourself Bomber. Up your game please, other folk make the effort.

I don’t really know Jo Swinson but dismissing her as ‘plumb in the mooth’ also makes you sound very embittered and angry. You do sound embittered and angry generally to be honest, but again, reducing it to personal attacks like that makes any point you are trying to make that so much weaker.

Perhaps most importantly, you calling people things like neoliberal Blairites suggests you have no understanding of either term, as there are fundamental contradictions between the two ideologies they represent. Maybe you heard someone else use the phrase and it sounded like a neat criticism but it is embarrassing that someone who I assume is trying to make what they feel are serious political points and can’t recognise the seismic differences between neoliberalism and Blairism.

What is more telling is that anyone would think it is relevant to even talk about Blairites in 2019, let alone as a pejorative term. The world moved on a long time ago. It feels like there are still some folk embittered that it took a centrist Labour leader to succeed electorally, just as it did with Wilson and just as it will almost certainly always do.

I'm sure it was you who was asking for all personal abuse to be reigned in.

Maybe I'm just a slaver though.

Shakes head smiley.

[weecounty hibby]

Always thought that as well, not that's its scientific but when I'm out to the pub or at a game with different groups of mates and this is discussed the majority feel like they're 'Scottish Labour voters in waiting' and are only voting SNP as a means to an end.

Still think the SNP would win the honeymoon election mind....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
I'm the same, I vote SNP primarily as I want an independent Scotland and they are most likely to deliver that. Would probably vote for them first time round for continuity but would then more than likely be looking at a Labour party. If Scottish Labour threw their weight behind independence they may even get my vote earlier!

[SHODAN]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190808/389a3a0a6dc2f90b4e5e88e9fe4c9567.jpg

Corbyn’s masterplan working a treat (if your Boris Johnson).[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Majority on less than a third of the vote. System's bent.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190808/389a3a0a6dc2f90b4e5e88e9fe4c9567.jpg

Corbyn’s masterplan working a treat (if your Boris Johnson).[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Boris bounce on one side and Swinson bounce on the other.


SNP bounce because, just because.

[GORDONSMITH7]

How's yer Oz, or how about yer Yankee? 😆

Do you do it when speaking to a group of Americans, new zealanders, Australians.

I'd guess not, unless I'm mistaken, of course.

The point about Swinson, is that she changes, daily. It's not really needed.

Lulu is a case in point R. In Scotland, which she is not very often, the wee twee accent is used, on say the One Show, transformation. I remember Scots champion swimmer David Wilkie, of whom all Scots were rightly proud of, look him up kids on here,being interviewed after a relatively short spell in the USA, sounding like Al Pecino. My brother has been in Leighton Buzzard since 1968. Spoke with him last night. Thick unaffected Musselburgh accent. Tam has other splendid atributes too. Voted Labour consistantly in a Tory constituency and put a wedge every year for many decades on Hibernian FC winning the League. He told me last night that he had got 100/1 for his annual bet and was absoluty delighted.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190808/389a3a0a6dc2f90b4e5e88e9fe4c9567.jpg

Swinson’s masterplan working a treat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fixed that for you. :aok:

[G B Young]

I actually think it was Fife Hibee who used the exact phrase ‘neoliberal Blairites’ so I apologise for that. It is hard to distinguish between the two of you at times.

I will stand by every other word though and the main point especially, which is Labour would be in a lot better place if we didn’t have ideologues and obsessives who think using the word ‘Blairites’ is relevant or even pejorative in 2019.

It really is just bitterness that it took a centrist Labour leader to win elections, same as with Wilson. And winning elections led to the raft of positive that Hibbyradge just described.

Is 'neoliberal Blairite' even an insult? I don't mind admitting I wouldn't have a clue what it meant if I heard someone described as such!

Blair, as I'm sure he would admit privately, made a massive error of judgement over Iraq but as you say he presided over three general election victories (the last of which came some two years after the Iraq invasion), something only Thatcher has achieved in living memory. Anyone who sat up on the night of 1997 election will always remember seeing the Tories wiped out in Scotland (although presumably in the eyes of the Corbynistas they were merely replaced by 'red' Tories).

Labour would certainly be in a better place if they could unshackle themselves from their luddite 'purity before power' faction.

[G B Young]

This little squabble between London Labour and their northern British branch is rather quite amusing.

If London Labour can work out how democracy works, then why can't their northern British branch?

No sign of them making up any time soon:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49279594

[Fife-Hibee]

Is 'neoliberal Blairite' even an insult? I don't mind admitting I wouldn't have a clue what it meant if I heard someone described as such!

Blair, as I'm sure he would admit privately, made a massive error of judgement over Iraq but as you say he presided over three general election victories (the last of which came some two years after the Iraq invasion), something only Thatcher has achieved in living memory. Anyone who sat up on the night of 1997 election will always remember seeing the Tories wiped out in Scotland (although presumably in the eyes of the Corbynistas they were merely replaced by 'red' Tories).

Labour would certainly be in a better place if they could unshackle themselves from their luddite 'purity before power' faction.

What people generally fail to realize is that as rosey as the UK economy seemed at the time under Blair, he was using an unsustainable model and knew exactly when to jump ship. Gordon Brown takes the flack for the economic turmoil. But in truth, it was inevitable regardless of who took over.

[Hibbyradge]

What people generally fail to realize is that as rosey as the UK economy seemed at the time under Blair, he was using an unsustainable model and knew exactly when to jump ship. Gordon Brown takes the flack for the economic turmoil. But in truth, it was inevitable regardless of who took over.

Did I imagine a world recession and global credit crunch?

Maybe I had a mental illness at the time.

[Fife-Hibee]

Did I imagine a world recession and global credit crunch?

Maybe I had a mental illness at the time.

A recession that they had every bit as much of a hand in as other major economies across the world. Funny how world wide recessions have a way of hitting 99% of us in the pocket while benefiting the 1% who we rather stupendously put our trust in to run the economy.

[marinello59]

Did I imagine a world recession and global credit crunch?

Maybe I had a mental illness at the time.


You mean the one that was sparked in to life by the USA sub-prime mortgage crisis? That one?

[weecounty hibby]

You mean the one that was sparked in to life by the USA sub-prime mortgage crisis? That one?
The fact that the banks regulated themselves was a huge part to play in it though. Championed by Brown and Blair. Banks were almost at a stage where they were more powerful than countries. And when they went pop they almost bright countries to their knees

[GORDONSMITH7]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

[Just Alf]

Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

The fact that the banks regulated themselves was a huge part to play in it though. Championed by Brown and Blair. Banks were almost at a stage where they were more powerful than countries. And when they went pop they almost bright countries to their knees

I’m not so sure that Blair had much say in the regulation of the American mortgage market. The banks did think they were untouchable though. Who can forget Salmond holding up the RBS as an example to the world. Politicians of all colours were happy to go along with it and precious few of them saw the crash coming.

[Moulin Yarns]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

Only 7pm? What time did you knock off work?

[GORDONSMITH7]

Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Splendid perspective Alf. Heve you been working on that.

BIG G

[Just Alf]

.... And again.... Sigh.....

You have so much to offer but for some reason......


Ah what the hell why bother...




Sigh.....



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

What would you say to those of us who do wish to see a more left leaning Government who are left looking on in despair as Labour engages in what looks like civil war? Those of us outside the party don’t care who blames who, we want to see a unified party capable of winning an election.
I’m not so sure you’ll get a left wing Goverment by joining up with the centre right SNP though. Corbyn himself isn’t even that far to the left of his predecessor.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Only 7pm? What time did you knock off work?

I knocked off work 10 years ago. Retired with
splendid pensions after 40 years of non stop work. And to you 12 year auld knocker. Hope you have many decades of pleasure whatever you do. You asked, I replyed. Get on with it.
BIG G

[Moulin Yarns]

I knocked off work 10 years ago. Retired with
splendid pensions after 40 years if non stop work. And you 12 year auld knocker. Hope you have many years of whatever you do. You asked, I replyed. Get on with it.
BIG G

OK. So the pub has been open for a few hours!!!

[weecounty hibby]

I’m not so sure that Blair had much say in the regulation of the American mortgage market. The banks did think they were untouchable though. Who can forget Salmond holding up the RBS as an example to the world. Politicians of all colours were happy to go along with it and precious few of them saw the crash coming.
I get what your saying about American banks but a lot of the issues were with our bigger banks, i.e. RBS buying up what they saw as investment opportunities. ABN Amro being a classic example. No due diligence done because they didn't have to.

[GORDONSMITH7]

OK. So the pub has been open for a few hours!!!

Bam. Get on with your life my splendid friend.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

I get what your saying about American banks but a lot of the issues were with our bigger banks, i.e. RBS buying up what they saw as investment opportunities. ABN Amro being a classic example. No due diligence done because they didn't have to.

Spot on mate. It is there for all to see.

BIG G

[Moulin Yarns]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

I have read this a few times and still don't understand what you say. Run it through Google translate and it appears to be swahili, or tennents.

Realise that it is probably stella or carling.

[Hibbyradge]

You mean the one that was sparked in to life by the USA sub-prime mortgage crisis? That one?

Possibly.

Were there many others?

[The Modfather]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

Have you taken on Tornadoes70 mantle of bizarre rants?

[weecounty hibby]

Spot on mate. It is there for all to see.

BIG G

I can't stand Tony Blair, never did but I don't have a lot of time for Corbyn either. Blair was electable for all his many faults, Corbyn is unelectable.

[GORDONSMITH7]

I can't stand Tony Blair, never did but I don't have a lot of time for Corbyn either. Blair was electable for all his many faults, Corbyn is unelectable.

Well repeated multi thousands of times by Labour right wing careerists and Blairites,see above, the billionaire Tory press and hanger on apologists for their own reasons. It will be a utter embarrassment for the Establishment with all the tools that they control, when this **** flies in their faces. Believe me not only them but everyone taken in by this unstopsble propaganda, that has never been seen in my lifetime, will look daft. Wake up for goodness sake.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well repeated multi thousands of times by Labour right wing careerists,see above, the billionaire Tory press and hanger on apologists for their own reasons. It will be a utter embarrassment for the Establishment with all the tools that they control, when this **** flies in thier faces. Believe me not only them but everyone taken in by this unstopsble propahanda will look daft.

What is a propohanda? And is it really unstopsble?

[GORDONSMITH7]

What is a propohanda? And is it really unstopsble?

I go to Easter Road with two 15 year auld grandkids. I have intelligent conversions with them. Fancy joining us in the FF lower. I will buy you a big juice of yer choice with ice. I take it you actually attend ER year in year out.

BIG G

[The Modfather]

I go to Easter Road with two 15 year auld grandkids. I have intelligent conversions with them. Fancy joining us in the FF lower. I will buy you a big juice of yer choice with ice. I take it you actually attend ER year in year out.

BIG G

Do you speak to your grandkids in the 3rd person or just online?

[Hibbyradge]

Well repeated multi thousands of times by Labour right wing careerists and Blairites,see above, the billionaire Tory press and hanger on apologists for their own reasons. It will be a utter embarrassment for the Establishment with all the tools that they control, when this **** flies in their faces. Believe me not only them but everyone taken in by this unstopsble propaganda, that has never been seen in my lifetime, will look daft. Wake up for goodness sake.

That's all very reassuring.

Can you offer any evidence of why Corbyn will win? Any polls? Any sense of a change in attitudes?

Or is it just blind hope? (Or blind drunk if you prefer 😁👍)

[Moulin Yarns]

I go to Easter Road with two 15 year auld grandkids. I have intelligent conversions with them. Fancy joining us in the FF lower. I will buy you a big juice of yer choice with ice. I take it you actually attend ER year in year out.

BIG G

Do you speak to them in the same unintelligible garbled guff you do on this thread?

[GORDONSMITH7]

That's all very reassuring.

Can you offer any evidence of why Corbyn will win? Any polls? Any sense of a change in attitudes?

Or is it just blind hope? (Or blind drunk if you prefer 😁👍)

Splendid intelligent interjection. I thank you.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

Do you speak to them in the same unintelligible garbled guff you do on this thread?

Splendid intelligent interjection. I thank you.

BIG G

[lapsedhibee]

Do you speak to them in the same unintelligible garbled guff you do on this thread?

You're only saying that because you're a Tory careerist puppet whose strings are being pulled by the billionaire MSM.

[mjhibby]

I can't stand Tony Blair, never did but I don't have a lot of time for Corbyn either. Blair was electable for all his many faults, Corbyn is unelectable.

This is the reality facing labour. The only way Corbyn will be prime minister is in a minority govt with the lib Dems and the SNP where there will be a price to pay for power. Every poll suggests that labour would win a majority with a decent leader and clear policies. Momentum won't do anything till they are forced to. The Labour party has wasted nearly ten years with unelectable leaders. To have the power to change things you have to be in power first. How hard is it for folk to understand. It's great dreaming of utopia but unless you can sell your vision to the electorate it's whistling in the dark.

[Fife-Hibee]

The Lib Dems will not be forming any alliance with Labour. Their only purpose is to ensure that Labour lose enough votes to them so that the Conservatives take a comfortable majority.

We're seeing this effect reflected in the polls. Jo Swinson will be delighted.

[Moulin Yarns]

You're only saying that because you're a Tory careerist puppet whose strings are being pulled by the billionaire MSM.

🤣

[marinello59]

I get what your saying about American banks but a lot of the issues were with our bigger banks, i.e. RBS buying up what they saw as investment opportunities. ABN Amro being a classic example. No due diligence done because they didn't have to.

I’m not disagreeing. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Splendid intelligent interjection. I thank you.

BIG G

It was a question.

[G B Young]

She does speak with an affected accent, whether that's a deliberate attempt to sound less Scots or just a by-product of living in England I don't know. Michael Gove is the same.

Corbyn's inner circle are mainly toffs turned Communists.

Gove's accent is a very curious one. I recall being surprised to hear he was Scottish when he first came to prominence. And yet he was born in Edinburgh and raised in Aberdeen, attending a state primary before winning a scholarship to Robert Gordon's according to Wiki. Mind you (also according to Wiki) his upbringing sounds rather mixed up (starting with the fact he originally went by another name altogether):

Graeme Logan was born in Edinburgh and originally named by his biological mother,[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-14) whom he mistook for a number of years as an unmarried Edinburgh student but who was in fact a 23-year-old cookery demonstrator.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) At the age of four months Logan was adopted by a Labour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK))-supporting couple in Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen), Ernest and Christine Gove, by whom he was brought up.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-SuppLab-16) After he joined the Gove family, Logan's name was changed to Michael Andrew Gove.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) His adoptive father, Ernest, ran a fish processing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_processing) business and his adoptive mother, Christine, was a lab assistant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab_assistant) at the University of Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Aberdeen), before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-michaelgove.com-17) In Aberdeen, Gove was educated at a state school (Kittybrewster Primary School), and later won a scholarship to the independent Robert Gordon's College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gordon%27s_College)

[G B Young]

I cannae be arsed, the splendid UKyoungconsetvativeToryboy, Colr,Hibbyradge , Maybby Oz(Bomber does not get it that Oz is a Tory boy)and others. To be fair your political perspectives are rather shallow. Deeply shallow.
LABOUR / SNP Government, would your Tory heads explode? Just asking likes.

Better things to do.

BIG G

Doesn't sound as though Sturgeon would embrace that prospect with open arms:

"I’m no great fan of Jeremy Corbyn. I think his lack of leadership on Brexit in particular … well, if we do crash out without a deal, he will bear almost as much responsibility as Theresa May or Boris Johnson. I can’t see the SNP going into formal coalition with Labour."

[JeMeSouviens]

Gove's accent is a very curious one. I recall being surprised to hear he was Scottish when he first came to prominence. And yet he was born in Edinburgh and raised in Aberdeen, attending a state primary before winning a scholarship to Robert Gordon's according to Wiki. Mind you (also according to Wiki) his upbringing sounds rather mixed up (starting with the fact he originally went by another name altogether):

Graeme Logan was born in Edinburgh and originally named by his biological mother,[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-14) whom he mistook for a number of years as an unmarried Edinburgh student but who was in fact a 23-year-old cookery demonstrator.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) At the age of four months Logan was adopted by a Labour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK))-supporting couple in Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen), Ernest and Christine Gove, by whom he was brought up.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-SuppLab-16) After he joined the Gove family, Logan's name was changed to Michael Andrew Gove.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) His adoptive father, Ernest, ran a fish processing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_processing) business and his adoptive mother, Christine, was a lab assistant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab_assistant) at the University of Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Aberdeen), before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-michaelgove.com-17) In Aberdeen, Gove was educated at a state school (Kittybrewster Primary School), and later won a scholarship to the independent Robert Gordon's College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gordon%27s_College)

Gove used to sound Scottish - even for a UK audience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLHyLC2DqI

[Fife-Hibee]

Gove used to sound Scottish - even for a UK audience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLHyLC2DqI

Jo Swinson 10 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmYSg8gET70

Jo Swinson 6 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SJZTisJPBQ

Two peas in a pod. Their politics are as fake as their accents.

[marinello59]

Gove's accent is a very curious one. I recall being surprised to hear he was Scottish when he first came to prominence. And yet he was born in Edinburgh and raised in Aberdeen, attending a state primary before winning a scholarship to Robert Gordon's according to Wiki. Mind you (also according to Wiki) his upbringing sounds rather mixed up (starting with the fact he originally went by another name altogether):

Graeme Logan was born in Edinburgh and originally named by his biological mother,[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-14) whom he mistook for a number of years as an unmarried Edinburgh student but who was in fact a 23-year-old cookery demonstrator.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) At the age of four months Logan was adopted by a Labour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK))-supporting couple in Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen), Ernest and Christine Gove, by whom he was brought up.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-SuppLab-16) After he joined the Gove family, Logan's name was changed to Michael Andrew Gove.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-:1-15) His adoptive father, Ernest, ran a fish processing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_processing) business and his adoptive mother, Christine, was a lab assistant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab_assistant) at the University of Aberdeen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Aberdeen), before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gove#cite_note-michaelgove.com-17) In Aberdeen, Gove was educated at a state school (Kittybrewster Primary School), and later won a scholarship to the independent Robert Gordon's College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gordon%27s_College)

Gove took elocution lessons to rid himself of the Doric.

[Future17]

How's yer Oz, or how about yer Yankee? 😆

Do you do it when speaking to a group of Americans, new zealanders, Australians.

I'd guess not, unless I'm mistaken, of course.

The point about Swinson, is that she changes, daily. It's not really needed.

If exposed to those accents for a long enough period of time then I would.

I don't think I've ever heard Swinson speak so can't comment on her specifically.

[ronaldo7]

If exposed to those accents for a long enough period of time then I would.[/B]

I don't think I've ever heard Swinson speak so can't comment on her specifically.

I'd agree with that, and accept that living in a country for long enough, you get a twang to your dialect. Some folk don't want the bother of having to repeat themselves, so polish up the accent and start dropping the R's etc.

Swinson has come to light in the last few weeks due to her winning the Lib Dems leadership campaign, and it does seem, (to me anyway) that she's poshing up her accent.

You can clearly hear the drawl now.:wink:

Maybe she practiced with this...

22402

[JeMeSouviens]

Nihilists For Independence
@Nihilists4Indy

Not a fan of
@scottishlabour
but you've got to hand it to them, they are very committed to launching themselves into the void.

:greengrin

[G B Young]

Gove used to sound Scottish - even for a UK audience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLHyLC2DqI

Still a slightly curious accent, or maybe it's just his rather awkward manner. I actually think he's an intelligent and able politician but even though politics has been described as 'showbiz for ugly people' there's something about his appearance/delivery that will always see him fall just short when it comes to the top job.

[Fife-Hibee]

Still a slightly curious accent, or maybe it's just his rather awkward manner. I actually think he's an intelligent and able politician but even though politics has been described as 'showbiz for ugly people' there's something about his appearance/delivery that will always see him fall just short when it comes to the top job.

I just don't know what you mean. :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oQ_tbf6j2A

[marinello59]

If exposed to those accents for a long enough period of time then I would.

I don't think I've ever heard Swinson speak so can't comment on her specifically.

Aye. I think there’s a wee bit of “I kent your faither “ goes on when it comes to Scots whose accent changes after leaving Scotland. I had Uncles who left Buckie to work in factories down in Watford. Their everyday accent was like Denis Law’s but five minutes back in Buckie saw them speaking broad Doric again It wasn’t any sort of affectation, it was a natural switch between the two.
Some people are just more susceptible to other accents. If I talk to someone from Newcastle for more than five minutes I’m already on my way to having a Geordie accent. That might be down to me moving up and down the U.K. several times as a kid and an adult though so nothing ever fully stuck. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Aye. I think there’s a wee bit of “I kent your faither “ goes on when it comes to Scots whose accent changes after leaving Scotland. I had Uncles who left Buckie to work in factories down in Watford. Their everyday accent was like Denis Law’s but five minutes back in Buckie saw them speaking broad Doric again It wasn’t any sort of affectation, it was a natural switch between the two.
Some people are just more susceptible to other accents. If I talk to someone from Newcastle for more than five minutes I’m already on my way to having. Geordie accent. That might be down to me moving up and down the U.K. several times as a kid and an adult though so nothing ever fully stuck. :greengrin

Thankfully my wife, who is from Inverurie, does this too or I'd never know what she was on about. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Proof that your accent can change after 5 minutes of leaving your country. :agree:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkUMFk4yTo

[ronaldo7]

Fresh turmoil at the branch office, as Brian Roy, Scottish Labours General secretary resigns.

Popcorn is nearly finished. New batch required.

[Moulin Yarns]

Fresh turmoil at the branch office, as Brian Roy, Scottish Labours General secretary resigns.

Popcorn is nearly finished. New batch required.

Sorry to be a doom monger but this was planned for a while. Wanted a fresh challenge, presumably one that will be achievable.

[marinello59]

Thankfully my wife, who is from Inverurie, does this too or I'd never know what she was on about. :greengrin

My wife has a crystal clear south Hebridean accent. I still don’t know what’s she’s on about at times.

[Future17]

My wife has a crystal clear south Hebridean accent. I still don’t know what’s she’s on about at times.

Yeah, I don't know what my wife is on about most or the time but it has nothing to do with accent.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah, I don't know what my wife is on about most or the time but it has nothing to do with accent.

I learned my wife's language a couple of years ago, after 40 years of marriage.

K2tog yo p2 k2 ssk wyab.

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye. I think there’s a wee bit of “I kent your faither “ goes on when it comes to Scots whose accent changes after leaving Scotland. I had Uncles who left Buckie to work in factories down in Watford. Their everyday accent was like Denis Law’s but five minutes back in Buckie saw them speaking broad Doric again It wasn’t any sort of affectation, it was a natural switch between the two.
Some people are just more susceptible to other accents. If I talk to someone from Newcastle for more than five minutes I’m already on my way to having a Geordie accent. That might be down to me moving up and down the U.K. several times as a kid and an adult though so nothing ever fully stuck. :greengrin

I think it's simply about being understood. There's only so many times that having to repeat yourself you can take. I spent nearly 14 years in the army in a British Regiment and did develop a Squaddie accent, but it's not just a phenomena that effects Scots, all the lads from Manchester, Liverpool Yorkshire, Wales, Ireland and even Geordies mellowed into the melting pot accent. I learnt German for the same reason, simply to be understood. Apparently it's a sign of intelligence:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I think it's simply about being understood. There's only so many times that having to repeat yourself you can take. I spent nearly 14 years in the army in a British Regiment and did develop a Squaddie accent, but it's not just a phenomena that effects Scots, all the lads from Manchester, Liverpool Yorkshire, Wales, Ireland and even Geordies mellowed into the melting pot accent. I learnt German for the same reason, simply to be understood. Apparently it's a sign of intelligence:greengrin

When I was in Oz I would deliberately change my accent to avoid repeating myself. Once you are there for a while it becomes natural. I also speak differently when I’m in the pub to when I’m in a meeting at work or coaching kids footy. It’s natural.
I think it’s more important to judge the substance of Gove or Swinson. Obsessing over their accents is silly.


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[Fife-Hibee]

When I was in Oz I would deliberately change my accent to avoid repeating myself. Once you are there for a while it becomes natural. I also speak differently when I’m in the pub to when I’m in a meeting at work or coaching kids footy. It’s natural.
I think it’s more important to judge the substance of Gove or Swinson. Obsessing over their accents is silly.


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There's a fair gap between Scotland and Oz though. Imagine people not understanding the Scottish accent in England in 2019. Or perhaps they do understand it, but an English accent it just more politically appealing to them?

[Bristolhibby]

I find my accent thickens when I come back to Edinburgh. My wife asks me “why are you talking like that”.

A few days back in England and it settles back down to my normal.

It’s never been particularly strong but it’s there. Which is surprising as I moved to England when I was 8. My brother who was 4 at the time, sounds like a Somerset farmer.

J

[lord bunberry]

I think it's simply about being understood. There's only so many times that having to repeat yourself you can take. I spent nearly 14 years in the army in a British Regiment and did develop a Squaddie accent, but it's not just a phenomena that effects Scots, all the lads from Manchester, Liverpool Yorkshire, Wales, Ireland and even Geordies mellowed into the melting pot accent. I learnt German for the same reason, simply to be understood. Apparently it's a sign of intelligence:greengrin
It’s definitely about being understood for most normal people. If I spoke the way I speak to my mates to foreign people in the taxi they wouldn’t have a clue what I was saying. I must be getting the hang of it because an English guy on holiday refused to believe I was Scottish.

[ronaldo7]

Sorry to be a doom monger but this was planned for a while. Wanted a fresh challenge, presumably one that will be achievable.

Not what David Clegg is saying.

Bust up between him and Richard the leopard heart last week tipped the scales

[G B Young]

Not what David Clegg is saying.

Bust up between him and Richard the leopard heart last week tipped the scales

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/it-feels-like-end-labour-18875278

[G B Young]

Proof that your accent can change after 5 minutes of leaving your country. :agree:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkUMFk4yTo

Steve McLaren did similar when he went to manage in Holland I seem to recall.

[G B Young]

There's a fair gap between Scotland and Oz though. Imagine people not understanding the Scottish accent in England in 2019. Or perhaps they do understand it, but an English accent it just more politically appealing to them?

I don't think it's really down to distance or as simple as having a 'Scottish' or 'English' accent. It often just comes down to regional expressions or dialect. There can be a big difference between an Edinburgh accent and one from north-east Scotland, for example, in particular when you've not come across everyday Doric expressions before. Newcastle is also only a shortish hop from Edinburgh but the dialect is radically different.

[Future17]

There's a fair gap between Scotland and Oz though. Imagine people not understanding the Scottish accent in England in 2019. Or perhaps they do understand it, but an English accent it just more politically appealing to them?

I'm guessing you mean "a" Scottish accent rather than "the" Scottish accent, as there's a broad range of accents across the country. I've worked with Scottish people who I've struggled to understand initially; with one Orcadian guy I was struggling for about a year!

[Smartie]

I'm guessing you mean "a" Scottish accent rather than "the" Scottish accent, as there's a broad range of accents across the country. I've worked with Scottish people who I've struggled to understand initially; with one Orcadian guy I was struggling for about a year!

Scottish politicians have an irritating habit of developing a neutral, non-regional one-size-fits-all Scottish accent that allows them to be recognisably Scottish and fairly well understood without giving away where they might be from.

That accent might reasonably referred to as "the accent".

[G B Young]

Leonard rumoured to be resigning as Scottish Labour 'implodes':

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-labour-in-crisis-summit-as-party-implodes-1-4981518

[Smartie]

Leonard rumoured to be resigning as Scottish Labour 'implodes':

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-labour-in-crisis-summit-as-party-implodes-1-4981518

Can we not get Tornadoes back in temporarily to give us his take on this development?

[weecounty hibby]

Leonard rumoured to be resigning as Scottish Labour 'implodes':

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-labour-in-crisis-summit-as-party-implodes-1-4981518
Bring back Jim Murphy, he was an absolute hoot. The problem for Labour on Scotland is that they just don't seem to have any talent. Or a plan to be honest

[Bristolhibby]

Not being wide, but who is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party?

J

[CloudSquall]

Not being wide, but who is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party?

J

Richard Leonhard, tried and failed twice to be elected on the constituency vote so got in on the list.

[Fife-Hibee]

Not being wide, but who is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party?

J

Jeremy Corbyn.

[Ozyhibby]

Bring back Jim Murphy, he was an absolute hoot. The problem for Labour on Scotland is that they just don't seem to have any talent. Or a plan to be honest

That’s going to be the hardest thing for better together 2. There are no big hitters from Labour or the Tories who are Scottish.


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[lapsedhibee]

That’s going to be the hardest thing for better together 2. There are no big hitters from Labour or the Tories who are Scottish.


Shirley Brown will be main man again?

[G B Young]

Shirley Brown will be main man again?

I think that barnstorming eve of poll speech he gave back in 2014 was his last great hurrah. It all felt a bit tired when he attempted something similar before the Brexit referendum.

Murphy was just one in a long line of hopeless Scottish Labour leaders (he wasn't even an MSP IIRC) but he was an effective and passionate campaigner in 2014. Got egged for his troubles in Kirkcaldy I recall.

[xyz23jc]

I think that barnstorming eve of poll speech he gave back in 2014 was his last great hurrah. It all felt a bit tired when he attempted something similar before the Brexit referendum.

Murphy was just one in a long line of hopeless Scottish Labour leaders (he wasn't even an MSP IIRC) but he was an effective and passionate campaigner in 2014. Got egged for his troubles in Kirkcaldy I recall.

Hopefully he'll be getting more of the same wherever he goes..... Absolute cretin of a man! Stupid woman indeed! :wink:

[CloudSquall]

I think the size of the electorate that would be swayed by a "big hitter" isn't big enough anymore to have any impact on a result, although it doesn't really matter given there are no "big hitters" to be used next time around.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s going to be the hardest thing for better together 2. There are no big hitters from Labour or the Tories who are Scottish.


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It’ll be wall to wall Ruth.

[CloudSquall]

It’ll be wall to wall Ruth.

The media will continue to give her a free pass, I've yet to see her be pressed by the Scottish media with anything close to a hard question.

[G B Young]

Jeremy's master plan already rejected and no bl**dy wonder. The guy's approach, or lack of it, to Brexit has been a shambles. Who in their right mind would see him as the man to sort things out?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/lib-dems-and-anna-soubry-reject-corbyn-caretaker-government

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2019/08/my-plan-prevent-no-deal-brexit

Doubt the Labour Party will listen to this. They would rather go down with purity.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Jeremy's master plan already rejected and no bl**dy wonder. The guy's approach, or lack of it, to Brexit has been a shambles. Who in their right mind would see him as the man to sort things out?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/lib-dems-and-anna-soubry-reject-corbyn-caretaker-government

So lets see.... the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Greens and even some remain tories are prepared to open a dialog with Corbyn to try and prevent a hard brexit...

But not the Lib Dems....

Funny that eh?

[G B Young]

So lets see.... the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Greens and even some remain tories are prepared to open a dialog with Corbyn to try and prevent a hard brexit...

But not the Lib Dems....

Funny that eh?

This isn't about Brexit for Corbyn. It's all about weaseling his way into a position of influence by any means possible.

[Fife-Hibee]

This isn't about Brexit for Corbyn. It's all about weaseling his way into a position of influence by any means possible.

So?

I thought the Lib Dems were all for preventing a no deal by any means necessary. Surely a temporary Corbyn government shouldn't sway them from preventing an outcome that would be permanent?

Unless of course, they aren't anti-brexit at all and just jumped on an opportunistic bandwagon to increase their vote share. Something they're notorious for doing.

[Moulin Yarns]

So?

I thought the Lib Dems were all for preventing a no deal by any means necessary. Surely a temporary Corbyn government shouldn't sway them from preventing an outcome that would be permanent?

Unless of course, they aren't anti-brexit at all and just jumped on an opportunistic bandwagon to increase their vote share. Something they're notorious for doing.

Let's be honest, for a change, the libdem, along with the snp, green party of England and Wales, plaid and the Scottish Green Party have never wavered from being anti Brexit, it is the Labour Party who have changed their minds with the wind.

[Fife-Hibee]

Let's be honest, for a change, the libdem, along with the snp, green party of England and Wales, plaid and the Scottish Green Party have never wavered from being anti Brexit, it is the Labour Party who have changed their minds with the wind.

The libdems just did waver from being anti Brexit by turning down the only way that could possibly prevent it. The libdems have no choice but to work with Corbyn's Labour if they want to prevent a hard brexit. But they don't. Their rhetoric doesn't match their actions. Again, something the party are well known for.

[SHODAN]

This latest nonsense from the "Liberal" Democrats shows that Swinson and the rest of them are just Tory-lites who yearn for the good old days of when they sold themselves out implementing austerity.

[Moulin Yarns]

The libdems just did waver from being anti Brexit by turning down the only way that could possibly prevent it. The libdems have no choice but to work with Corbyn's Labour if they want to prevent a hard brexit. But they don't. Their rhetoric doesn't match their actions. Again, something the party are well known for.

She is clear she wants to work with others in parliament, she does not think a Corbyn led caretaker government is going to get the support across Parliament.

[Fife-Hibee]

She is clear she wants to work with others in parliament, she does not think a Corbyn led caretaker government is going to get the support across Parliament.

Well it certainly won't get the support across Parliament if the libdems aren't prepared to put the UK before their own internal party politics.

[JeMeSouviens]

She is clear she wants to work with others in parliament, she does not think a Corbyn led caretaker government is going to get the support across Parliament.

It's not about implementing Lab policy. It's just legislate against no deal, get an extension from the EU and then call an election.

All of the oppo parties and the few non-insane-Tories should be saying, "wgaf who the temp PM is, just get get this done."

Any of them who don't have that attitude can **** RIGHT OFF, imo.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well it certainly won't get the support across Parliament if the libdems aren't prepared to put the UK before their own internal party politics.

The article said that she will put forward her ideas in a speech tomorrow. We should wait for that before dismissing her as pro Brexit

[SHODAN]

It's not about implementing Lab policy. It's just legislate against no deal, get an extension from the EU and then call an election.

All of the oppo parties and the few non-insane-Tories should be saying, "wgaf who the temp PM is, just get get this done."

Any of them who don't have that attitude can **** RIGHT OFF, imo.

Yup, exactly. Bet if it was Boris wanting to be caretaker PM to stop Corbyn imposing a no-deal Brexit Swinson and CUK would be all for it.

[Ozyhibby]

If Corbyn amended his plan to say the would have another referendum first and the GE he would prob get the support he needs. He would then lose heavily at the GE if there is no threat of brexit though so he won’t.


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[lord bunberry]

The Libdems showing their true colours now. If they really wanted to stop brexit or stop no deal they’d be all over this plan.

[GORDONSMITH7]

She is clear she wants to work with others in parliament, she does not think a Corbyn led caretaker government is going to get the support across Parliament.

She gave uncondition support to the Tory bassas. Pushing trough brutal cuts affecting poor and dissbled,when she was in a position of power. Tory lite ****hoose.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

If Corbyn amended his plan to say the would have another referendum first and the GE he would prob get the support he needs. He would then lose heavily at the GE if there is no threat of brexit though so he won’t.


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There won't be a general election before Brexit. Rebel tories will back any method to prevent a no deal brexit, but they won't back a general election until after October the 31st. Corbyn needs those rebel tories on his side, so that's why he isn't throwing a general election into the mix.

[G B Young]

It's not about implementing Lab policy. It's just legislate against no deal, get an extension from the EU and then call an election.

All of the oppo parties and the few non-insane-Tories should be saying, "wgaf who the temp PM is, just get get this done."

Any of them who don't have that attitude can **** RIGHT OFF, imo.

The reason Corbyn is the worst possible choice for temporary PM is because he's even more divisive than Boris - not least among his own party. Anyone stepping into that role amid the Brexit shambles needs to at least have a hope of commanding respect across Parliament.

[Moulin Yarns]

The reason Corbyn is the worst possible choice for temporary PM is because he's even more divisive than Boris - not least among his own party. Anyone stepping into that role amid the Brexit shambles needs to at least have a hope of commanding respect across Parliament.

Maybe that's Swinson's plan :hmmm:

[G B Young]

Well it certainly won't get the support across Parliament if the libdems aren't prepared to put the UK before their own internal party politics.

Which parties are putting the UK before party politics? Each is using Brexit to gain leverage for their own agendas.

[Ozyhibby]

Best for the temp PM role would be someone like Grieve who will be leaving at the end of this parliament anyway and his motives will be to stop brexit and that’s it. Corbyn won’t be able to put his personal ambitions aside though.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Best for the temp PM role would be someone like Grieve who will be leaving at the end of this parliament anyway and his motives will be to stop brexit and that’s it. Corbyn won’t be able to put his personal ambitions aside though.


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Corbyn offers route to prevent no deal brexit. Lib Dems say naw, we don't like Corbyn.

So you accuse Corbyn of not putting his personal ambitions aside?

What about Jo Swinsons personal ambition to see the tories remain in power for as long as possible?

[G B Young]

Corbyn offers route to prevent no deal brexit. Lib Dems say naw, we don't like Corbyn.

So you accuse Corbyn of not putting his personal ambitions aside?

What about Jo Swinsons personal ambition to see the tories remain in power for as long as possible?

As per my earlier post, it seems very few politicians are putting their personal ambitions aside. If they were, Parliament would have come together to agree a deal. Instead, a multitude of players in this whole sorry drama have exploited the opportunity to shape their own agendas.

[Fife-Hibee]

As per my earlier post, it seems very few politicians are putting their personal ambitions aside. If they were, Parliament would have come together to agree a deal. Instead, a multitude of players in this whole sorry drama have exploited the opportunity to shape their own agendas.

Including Jo Swinson. Who clearly has no intention of standing in the way of a tory hard brexit.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Including Jo Swinson. Who clearly has no intention of standing in the way of a tory hard brexit.

Let's face it Fife amigo she is a total political lightweight. Perhaps if she showed the same hatred of Cameron as Corbyn she would not have served and voted in Cabinet to batter working families, disabled and students. What a fop to the Tories and Big Business friends. The arse will fall out of her 'Yes we can be the biggest party in Parliament after the next election'. Dream on Tory apologist.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

Let's face it Fife amigo she is a total political lightweight. Perhaps if she showed the same hatred of Cameron as Corbyn she would not have served and voted in Cabinet to batter working families, disabled and students. What a fop to the Tories and Big Business friends. The arse will fall out of her 'Yes we can be the biggest party in Parliament after the next election'. Dream on Tory apologist.

BIG G

Agreed. I've noticed a worrying trend over the past few years though. It seems that the more a politician is unable to answer questions and the more u-turns they perform, the more people seem to think that they're "good for the country".

Ruth Davidson has been flopping all over the place ever since she took over the tory Scottish branch, yet still continues to have her "admirers" in Scotland for some bizarre reason.

Now you have Jo Swinson who is even worse in this regard, yet the Lib Dems shoot up in the polls, just by pretending (badly) to be a remain party. People could back a genuine remain party like the Greens, but instead they're all hopping on the bandwagon and getting behind the 'jump in bed with the biggest dick' party.

[Curried]

Just watched Jeremy Corbyn’s "Vision for Britain" speech in Corby, and thought he came across very well.

All Jam Tomorrow, but I quite liked his proposal for:



free UNI tuition
a commitment to protect the NHS
a pledge to build 500,000 new council houses (not sure the time scale)
the nationalisation of the rail, post and water
higher taxes for rich ****s


Interestingly, the constitutional question wasn’t raised once.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/374564cab1ff8755124f07837d5c3f7e.jpg
Corbyn’s strategy still going well I see?


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[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/374564cab1ff8755124f07837d5c3f7e.jpg
Corbyn’s strategy still going well I see?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Lib Dem strategy certainly appears to be working. Bojo Swinson will be delighted.

[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/374564cab1ff8755124f07837d5c3f7e.jpg
Corbyn’s strategy still going well I see?


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In days gone by it would have been remarkable for the main opposition party to lag so far behind a government which has taken such flak for so long, but with Corbyn leading Labour it's something that simply doesn't surprise anyone any more.

This sums him up well:

https://www.cityam.com/jeremy-corbyn-is-an-architect-of-brexit/

[CloudSquall]

Bojo almost wiping out the Brexit Party threat and the remain vote split, Conservatives must be gasping for an election.

[Colr]

Bojo almost wiping out the Brexit Party threat and the remain vote split, Conservatives must be gasping for an election.

Corbyn is an equivocating weasel on Brexit.

If he can’t be trusted to lead on that issue what can he be trusted on.

The man is just shifty and manipulative - and he’s not even very good at it.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn is an equivocating weasel on Brexit.

If he can’t be trusted to lead on that issue what can he be trusted on.

The man is just shifty and manipulative - and he’s not even very good at it.

You've just described Jo Swinson. But I don't see people who stick the boot into Corbyn stick the boot into her. Despite her best efforts to keep the vote split.

[Colr]

You've just described Jo Swinson. But I don't see people who stick the boot into Corbyn stick the boot into her. Despite her best efforts to keep the vote split.

LibDems have been consistent in their position on Brexit.

[CloudSquall]

So after saying he wouldn't block a 2nd independence referendum, Corbyn did a u-turn and was reported to have said it would now be blocked, only to clarify that he would only "ask" the Scottish parliament not to ask for one.

All clear? :greengrin

[Colr]

So after saying he wouldn't block a 2nd independence referendum, Corbyn did a u-turn and was reported to have said it would now be blocked, only to clarify that he would only "ask" the Scottish parliament not to ask for one.

All clear? :greengrin

You can’t trust Corbyn. He’s a duplicitous, equivocating weasel.

[GORDONSMITH7]

LibDems have been consistent in their position on Brexit.

The most consistent that Tory lite, including the lightweight Jo Swinton, have been was in supporting the Tories in coalition legislating for attacks on the most vulnerable in society and workers and their families through so called austerity measures, at the behest of the banks and big business who caused the 2008 crash. Consistantly pathetic.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

LibDems have been consistent in their position on Brexit.

They were also consistent of tuition fees and many other things, until they were put in a position of influence.

Let's just say they're consistent liars.

[GORDONSMITH7]

They were also consistent of tuition fees and many other things, until they were put in a position of influence.

Let's just say they're consistent liars.

Liberals and the Brexit Party gained during the EU elections based on one issue. I predict that is ephemeral and will evaporate for both. The Liberals were complicit with the Tories. The we were only taking orders guv pish does not hold water.

BIG G

[Colr]

They were also consistent of tuition fees and many other things, until they were put in a position of influence.

Let's just say they're consistent liars.

They all lie. Corbyn lies. If your looking for a pure mouthpiece of truth you won’t find it in politics......

[Colr]

Liberals and the Brexit Party gained during the EU elections based on one issue. I predict that is ephemeral and will evaporate for both. The Liberals were complicit with the Tories. The we were only taking orders guv pish does not hold water.

BIG G

But Labour are utter **** (I say that as a member).

The Libs are the only other option. I agree that I would rather the Libs gone into coalition with Labour in 2010, though.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190901/e4127ccd5c34cc5859c91bc792267125.jpg
Long term plan coming along nicely. [emoji849]
There is nothing more likely in British politics to bring about a right wing govt than a left wing Labour leader.


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[ballengeich]

Long term plan coming along nicely. [emoji849]
There is nothing more likely in British politics to bring about a right wing govt than a left wing Labour leader.


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Long term plan you say? A medium term party tactic perhaps.

[Hibbyradge]

Long term plan you say? A medium term party tactic perhaps.

What do you mean?

A medium term tactic to be less popular than the worst Tory government in living history?

I may have misunderstood, so apologies if that's the case.

[GORDONSMITH7]

But Labour are utter **** (I say that as a member).

The Libs are the only other option. I agree that I would rather the Libs gone into coalition with Labour in 2010, though.

I think you may be a highland dancer amigo, considering your rather tired anti Labour Party posts. I am a member of North Edinburgh and Leith Constituency Labour Party, membership number L1304487 and your CLP and membership number? I will wager with anyone that there is no reply from colr. We all await with baited breath Comrade.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190901/e4127ccd5c34cc5859c91bc792267125.jpg
Long term plan coming along nicely. [emoji849]
There is nothing more likely in British politics to bring about a right wing govt than a left wing Labour leader.


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So what do you suggest? A party that is supposed to be left wing, replace their left wing leader for another "moderate"?

A "moderate" like Jo Swinson? Cause clearly "moderates" have proven themselves trustworthy over the years. :faf:

[Colr]

Bojo almost wiping out the Brexit Party threat and the remain vote split, Conservatives must be gasping for an election.

And Labour just naively helping him do it.

General election now is Johnson’s best chance of delivering Brexit and getting a majority!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.ft.com/content/dc17d7ee-ccab-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

Labour’s plan to confiscate private property. This is why people would prefer a no deal brexit under Johnson than a hard left Corbyn govt. The flight of cash from the UK would cripple the economy if he wins.


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[Hibbyradge]

I think you may be a highland dancer amigo, considering your rather tired anti Labour Party posts. I am a member of North Edinburgh and Leith Constituency Labour Party, membership number L1304487 and your CLP and membership number? I will wager with anyone that there is no reply from colr. We all await with baited breath Comrade.

BIG G

I don't know about ColR, but I'm a twice ex-member of the Labour Party and I agree with him.

Labour are s***.

Why Corbyn wants a General Election, only he and Seamus Milne can tell you and I doubt very much that Corbyn really knows.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.ft.com/content/dc17d7ee-ccab-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

Labour’s plan to confiscate private property. This is why people would prefer a no deal brexit under Johnson than a hard left Corbyn govt. The flight of cash from the UK would cripple the economy if he wins.


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Can you copy and paste the article, please, Ozy. It's behind a pay wall.

[Ozyhibby]

Can you copy and paste the article, please, Ozy. It's behind a pay wall.

Here’s the Mail version of the same story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7417191/John-McDonnell-declare-war-buy-let-landlords-giving-tenants-chance-buy-property.html




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[Hibbyradge]

Here’s the Mail version of the same story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7417191/John-McDonnell-declare-war-buy-let-landlords-giving-tenants-chance-buy-property.html




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Oh yuck, the Mail.

Thanks though 😁

[Ozyhibby]

Oh yuck, the Mail.

Thanks though [emoji16]

That’s why I posted the FT version. [emoji6] When I read it it wasn’t behind the paywall but now it is for some reason.


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[Hibbyradge]

https://www.ft.com/content/dc17d7ee-ccab-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

Labour’s plan to confiscate private property. This is why people would prefer a no deal brexit under Johnson than a hard left Corbyn govt. The flight of cash from the UK would cripple the economy if he wins.


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A housing policy like that would piss off the landlords, but I guess a good percentage of them wouldn't vote Labour anyway.

It might, however, attract some of the tenants who can't get on the housing ladder.

The stock market issue is similar, but both will have the right wing press in a lather.

[Ozyhibby]

A housing policy like that would piss off the landlords, but I guess a good percentage of them wouldn't vote Labour anyway.

It might, however, attract some of the tenants who can't get on the housing ladder.

The stock market issue is similar, but both will have the right wing press in a lather.

It’s def populist enough to win some votes but it will kill investment in the uk. Why would you buy a property or business in the uk when it can be taken off you by the govt?



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[Hibbyradge]

It’s def populist enough to win some votes but it will kill investment in the uk. Why would you buy a property or business in the uk when it can be taken off you by the govt?



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I'm not sure that individuals buying flats to rent out can be classed as investing in the UK.

In any case, it's just a headline of a possible policy. We have no details of how it would work or to whom it might apply.

Buy to let would stop overnight and that's in no-one's interest. Who is going to buy a flat to rent out at, say a market value of £150k, if they're going to be forced to sell it immediately for £125k.

Current landlords would start off-loading their properties as soon as such a policy was announced, thereby crashing the housing market.

For a policy like that to work, there would have to be time limits, sliding scales of discounts, and general safeguards.

It's an interesting topic for academic debate, but as we all know, it will never become reality.

[Smartie]

The funny thing is though that as a punter with no interest in that industry it sounds like an idea worth considering.

Nobody can really admit that the housing market is functioning properly or fairly at present, but it seems like there is nothing that can be done to address the matter that is fair.

I mention that industry as being one that I have no interest in, because I have heard similar(ish) suggestions about what Labour would like to do to my "industry" and it would be along similar lines. This would be deeply unpopular, horrifically unfair and absolutely terrible for the public, even though they would very easily be convinced that it would be a good idea.

[Ozyhibby]

Labour now saying they won’t allow a general election. They might just be getting smart. Maybe.


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[ballengeich]

What do you mean?

A medium term tactic to be less popular than the worst Tory government in living history?

I may have misunderstood, so apologies if that's the case.

We may be at cross purposes here - I was thinking that about Johnson rather than Corbyn gaining an advantage from the current situation.

[ballengeich]

Here’s the Mail version of the same story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7417191/John-McDonnell-declare-war-buy-let-landlords-giving-tenants-chance-buy-property.html




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While there's an intellectual consistency in extending the right to buy from public to private landlords, concentration should be on increasing public rental stocks rather than decreasing private availability. Having lived in a street which gradually deteriorated as the proportion of the residents with no long-term stake in the area increased, I've sympathy for some of the motivation. I believe Glasgow puts restrictions on the proportion of properties in an area which can be used for multiple occupation. That might be worth extending.

[lucky]

The most consistent that Tory lite, including the lightweight Jo Swinton, have been was in supporting the Tories in coalition legislating for attacks on the most vulnerable in society and workers and their families through so called austerity measures, at the behest of the banks and big business who caused the 2008 crash. Consistantly pathetic.

BIG G

She was the work and pension minister who implemented the coalition policy’s on the vulnerable people. She’s a much bigger danger that Corbyn will ever be

[GORDONSMITH7]

Labour now saying they won’t allow a general election. They might just be getting smart. Maybe.


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Where? Source?

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

Where? Source?

BIG G

It was a shadow minister on the lunch time news. I can’t remember his name. I’ve not seen it followed up so maybe speaking out of turn.


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[GORDONSMITH7]

It was a shadow minister on the lunch time news. I can’t remember his name. I’ve not seen it followed up so maybe speaking out of turn.


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I woke up listening to Radio 4's Today....work about the house....The World at One.....BBC news at One......messages at Tesco....etc, etc, including watching the dangerous figure of Political fun, Boris outside Downing Street.
I think you may have misheard or heard what you perhaps wanted to hear?

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

I woke up listening to Radio 4's Today....work about the house....The World at One.....BBC news at One......messages at Tesco....etc, etc, including watching the dangerous figure of Political fun, Boris outside Downing Street.
I think you may have misheard or heard what you perhaps wanted to hear?

BIG G

There’s a guy on newsnight just now saying the same. He’s shadow Northern Ireland Secretary. To be fair he is as muddled as Corbyn when giving an answer.


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[JeMeSouviens]

There’s a guy on newsnight just now saying the same. He’s shadow Northern Ireland Secretary. To be fair he is as muddled as Corbyn when giving an answer.


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He managed to totally confuse Emily Maitlis but I’m sure he (Tony Lloyd) and Mary Creagh both ruled out Labour voting for an election until No Deal is off the table.

Farage will be licking his chops at the betrayal narrative he gets from another delay.

[Ozyhibby]

He managed to totally confuse Emily Maitlis but I’m sure he (Tony Lloyd) and Mary Creagh both ruled out Labour voting for an election until No Deal is off the table.

Farage will be licking his chops at the betrayal narrative he gets from another delay.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190902/c263192b9444d7d8422362d5bbbb156f.jpg



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[GORDONSMITH7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190902/c263192b9444d7d8422362d5bbbb156f.jpg



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Ozy your anti Labour fixation will be exposed in the next few months. I hope you will apologies for this Tory nonsense because I will not miss you and other suspects on this thread. Nighty,night Comrade.

BIG G

[G B Young]

What a clueless buffoon Corbyn is. How can fail so consistently to get himself on the same page as the party he's supposed to be leading? He must be Boris Johnson's biggest asset!

"Despite Corbyn's claim to be ready for a general election, Shadow Northern Ireland secretary Tony Lloyd later told Newsnight Labour would vote against any government plans to hold one before 31 October.
Asked whether Labour would vote against having an election before 31 October, he said: "That is absolutely right…we will stop a no-deal Brexit."
He said Labour "will not have Boris Johnson dictate the terms of an election that crashes this country out with no deal".
Labour backbencher Mary Creagh also said her understanding from speaking to senior members of her party was that Labour would not support a vote for a general election before 31 October."

[Hibbyradge]

Ozy your anti Labour fixation will be exposed in the next few months. I hope you will apologies for this Tory nonsense because I will not miss you and other suspects on this thread. Nighty,night Comrade.

BIG G

Eh, whit?

:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

Ozy your anti Labour fixation will be exposed in the next few months. I hope you will apologies for this Tory nonsense because I will not miss you and other suspects on this thread. Nighty,night Comrade.

BIG G

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]




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[Hiber-nation]

Corbyn's rallying call last night in a speech to some of his comrades was absolutely tragic.

[G B Young]

Ozy your anti Labour fixation will be exposed in the next few months. I hope you will apologies for this Tory nonsense because I will not miss you and other suspects on this thread. Nighty,night Comrade.

BIG G

How is a member of Corbyn's cabinet contradicting his party leader 'Tory nonsense'?

[G B Young]

Corbyn's rallying call last night in a speech to some of his comrades was absolutely tragic.

I saw some of that and actually failed to understand what point (if any) he was trying to make. Like all his speeches it seemed to drift all over the shop, covering every topic under the sun. Utterly directionless, just like him.

[Pretty Boy]

How is a member of Corbyn's cabinet contradicting his party leader 'Tory nonsense'?

I think the suggestion is more that being aware of this contradiction and pointing it out is 'Tory nonsense'.

Quite how that is the case whan a shadow minister openly contradicts his party leader in a TV interview is beyond me though.

[lapsedhibee]

Ozy your anti Labour fixation will be exposed in the next few months. I hope you will apologies for this Tory nonsense because I will not miss you and other suspects on this thread. Nighty,night Comrade.

BIG G

You're aiding and abetting the re-election of a Johnson government with chat like that.

[GORDONSMITH7]

I think the suggestion is more that being aware of this contradiction and pointing it out is 'Tory nonsense'.

Quite how that is the case whan a shadow minister openly contradicts his party leader in a TV interview is beyond me though.

There is no contradiction whatsoever. What Corbyn said in Salford, 'Mr Corbyn said his first priority was to "bring the country back from the brink" and do everything possible to prevent no deal, before then pushing for an election. The gleeful allegations on here are fake news.

BIG G

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190902/c263192b9444d7d8422362d5bbbb156f.jpg



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Oh dear, that'll be 20 years hard labour in the Siberian salt mines for you comrade.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Oh dear, that'll be 20 years hard labour in the Siberian salt mines for you comrade.

Deary me that could have come straight from a Daily Mail editorial.

BIG G

[Hibrandenburg]

Deary me that could have come straight from a Daily Mail editorial.

BIG G

Probably, but they'd be hoping folks would take them seriously.

[G B Young]

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/covers/full/1503_big.jpg

:hilarious

[Since90+2]

Labour will be absolutely wiped out in Scotland if a GE is called.

They have became pretty much unelectable.

[Colr]

Eh, whit?

:faf:

You’re fixated!! It’s gaslighting!!

[Colr]

What a clueless buffoon Corbyn is. How can fail so consistently to get himself on the same page as the party he's supposed to be leading? He must be Boris Johnson's biggest asset!

"Despite Corbyn's claim to be ready for a general election, Shadow Northern Ireland secretary Tony Lloyd later told Newsnight Labour would vote against any government plans to hold one before 31 October.
Asked whether Labour would vote against having an election before 31 October, he said: "That is absolutely right…we will stop a no-deal Brexit."
He said Labour "will not have Boris Johnson dictate the terms of an election that crashes this country out with no deal".
Labour backbencher Mary Creagh also said her understanding from speaking to senior members of her party was that Labour would not support a vote for a general election before 31 October."

I’m not sure that I get it. Are they saying they will allow a no deal brexit rather than fight an election to stop it? That’s not what I thought they were saying before.

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not sure that I get it. Are they saying they will allow a no deal brexit rather than fight an election to stop it? That’s not what I thought they were saying before.

No, I don't think so. The suggestion has been that Johnson will call an election for Oct 14th. Then, if Labour vote for it, once he's got parliament dissolved there's nothing to stop him changing the date to after Oct 31st.

So Labour are saying they will only vote for a GE once they are certain they have stopped no deal (presumably via the Hillary Benn extension bill coming tomorrow).

[The Harp Awakes]

Labour will be absolutely wiped out in Scotland if a GE is called.

They have became pretty much unelectable.

I think there's a fair chance of that. From a nationalist/independence viewpoint what I'm bothered about is where the Labour defectors votes go?

There will be those like my good mate Gordon, who will stick with their Party, some won't vote and some will vote Lib Dem. Irritatingly, many of the loyalist/Rangers minded Labour voters will vote Tory rather than for a nationalist party (SNP/Geens).

To get independence, the Nationalists need to win over disaffected Labour voters and to a lesser extent Lib Dems to the Yes movement. If we see a collapse in the Labour vote, a surge in the SNP/Green vote and a significant reduction in the Tory vote in Scotland at the next GE, independence might just be within grasp.

[G B Young]

No, I don't think so. The suggestion has been that Johnson will call an election for Oct 14th. Then, if Labour vote for it, once he's got parliament dissolved there's nothing to stop him changing the date to after Oct 31st.

So Labour are saying they will only vote for a GE once they are certain they have stopped no deal (presumably via the Hillary Benn extension bill coming tomorrow).

If that's the case then why let Corbyn loose on the podium last night before the party strategy was agreed? It's a recurring theme with Labour under Corbyn, having to clear up the muddle he gets into over virtually every issue of electoral importance. The guy is a dud.

[Colr]

No, I don't think so. The suggestion has been that Johnson will call an election for Oct 14th. Then, if Labour vote for it, once he's got parliament dissolved there's nothing to stop him changing the date to after Oct 31st.

So Labour are saying they will only vote for a GE once they are certain they have stopped no deal (presumably via the Hillary Benn extension bill coming tomorrow).

I think Hillary Ben’s vote comes first, doesn’t it. So if its successful, Boris will call an election anyway to force through Brexit and Labour will agree to that. If it fails, we’ll have no deal brexit and no election.

[JeMeSouviens]

If that's the case then why let Corbyn loose on the podium last night before the party strategy was agreed? It's a recurring theme with Labour under Corbyn, having to clear up the muddle he gets into over virtually every issue of electoral importance. The guy is a dud.

Oh god knows. People used to say Labour had a clever policy of "constructive ambiguity" but the alternative shambles theory is equally plausible imo.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think Hillary Ben’s vote comes first, doesn’t it. So if its successful, Boris will call an election anyway to force through Brexit and Labour will agree to that. If it fails, we’ll have no deal brexit and no election.

The Benn bill won't get through final stages until the end of the week (compressing months of normal parliamentary procedure into a couple of days).

Whatever happens we're getting an election, they only have a majority of 1 after all. If Benn fails, Johnson will probably want it to be very shortly after Oct 31 so that no deal has happened and Farage is neutralised, but the food shortages haven't started to really bite yet.

[Colr]

The Benn bill won't get through final stages until the end of the week (compressing months of normal parliamentary procedure into a couple of days).

Whatever happens we're getting an election, they only have a majority of 1 after all. If Benn fails, Johnson will probably want it to be very shortly after Oct 31 so that no deal has happened and Farage is neutralised, but the food shortages haven't started to really bite yet.

Completely see the sense in that strategy especially as the Brexit mob have lost a lot of support to the Tories since Johnson took over.

TBH for all the protesting from some, pushing Brexit through looks like the only option for the Tories. They started the whole process and they will need to finish it. It will have long term implications for the country and their party but with a majority, they will have 5 years to recover and refocus.

You can see why they are going down this route.

[JeMeSouviens]

Completely see the sense in that strategy especially as the Brexit mob have lost a lot of support to the Tories since Johnson took over.

TBH for all the protesting from some, pushing Brexit through looks like the only option for the Tories. They started the whole process and they will need to finish it. It will have long term implications for the country and their party but with a majority, they will have 5 years to recover and refocus.

You can see why they are going down this route.

You can in a short term desperation sense. The big danger for them is that they are going to write off a generation of young millenials to soothe the anger they've stirred up among the gammons.

[G B Young]

The Benn bill won't get through final stages until the end of the week (compressing months of normal parliamentary procedure into a couple of days).

Whatever happens we're getting an election, they only have a majority of 1 after all. If Benn fails, Johnson will probably want it to be very shortly after Oct 31 so that no deal has happened and Farage is neutralised, but the food shortages haven't started to really bite yet.

That sounds about right. In such a scenario Johnson would be entitled to expect to be returned with a decent working majority as the PM who 'delivered' Brexit.

The Benn bill looks pretty much certain to pass though so any sort of clarity remains some way off.

[G B Young]

You can in a short term desperation sense. The big danger for them is that they are going to write off a generation of young millenials to soothe the anger they've stirred up among the gammons.

I think, living in Scotland, that we can sometimes overlook just how strong pro-Brexit feelings remain elsewhere. It's not just the 'gammons' (who, when set in the context of the wider world, are relatively few in number), it's ordinary punters who you see banging the drum for it whenever you see the news teams out and about in the towns and cities of England, or if you watch programmes like Question Time.

Have the Tories ever really attracted a 'young' vote anyway?

[JeMeSouviens]

I think, living in Scotland, that we can sometimes overlook just how strong pro-Brexit feelings remain elsewhere. It's not just the 'gammons' (who, when set in the context of the wider world, are relatively few in number), it's ordinary punters who you see banging the drum for it whenever you see the news teams out and about in the towns and cities of England, or if you watch programmes like Question Time.

Have the Tories ever really attracted a 'young' vote anyway?

I think there's always been a tendency for the young to vote Labour and perhaps some of them to switch to Tory as they take on mortgages, kids etc. But the problem with youth has got worse and worse for the Tories and they know they need to do something about it. That was what the Cameron/Osbourne project was all about.

Brexit has largely reversed any progess they made. This is from Ipsos/MORI's summation of the 2017 results:


Age was even more of a dividing factor than in 2015 (and the biggest we’ve seen since our records began in 1979). All the swing to Labour was among under 44s (and highest of all among 25-34s), while there was a swing to the Conservatives among over 55s. This is the biggest age gap we’ve seen in elections going back to the 1970s. Although (as in previous elections) the swing among women and men overall was similar, there was a difference between young men and young women. Among 18-24 year olds, Labour increased its vote share much more among women than men.

And similar from Yougov:


In electoral terms, age seems to be the new dividing line in British politics. The starkest way to show this is to note that, amongst first time voters (those aged 18 and 19), Labour was forty seven percentage points ahead. Amongst those aged over 70, the Conservatives had a lead of fifty percentage points.


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2017-06-13/Age-01.png

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2017-06-13/Age%20predictor-01.png

[Colr]

Yup. But young people keep getting older and replenishing the supply of old farts.

[Ozyhibby]

Yup. But young people keep getting older and replenishing the supply of old farts.

That’s was always the case previously, except the young who are getting old now don’t own their own homes. This changes their outlook considerably. Owning your own home is usually the largest store of wealth for most people and the thing they most seek to protect when switching to Tory.
I bought my first home when I was 21. How many young folk can do that nowadays?


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[Colr]

That’s was always the case previously, except the young who are getting old now don’t own their own homes. This changes their outlook considerably. Owning your own home is usually the largest store of wealth for most people and the thing they most seek to protect when switching to Tory.
I bought my first home when I was 21. How many young folk can do that nowadays?


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Good point and successive governments and councils have done less that **** all about it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Pippa Crerar
@PippaCrerar

Corbyn and other Opposition leaders believe they can both block no deal *and* get an election. Labour insiders are convinced they have ways of preventing no deal even during a general election campaign. But MPs very nervous.

Oh Gawd.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh Gawd.

He’s dumb enough to think he can.


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[GORDONSMITH7]

Unlike most on here I watched the whole G7 report back from Boris the Bufoon.
No matter the clips for the News outlets, Corbyn hammered him big time, followed by Ian Blackford of the SNP, getting the boot in too. Splendid. Boris is truely atrocious. Watching a Tory MP actually crossing to the opposition benches live was remarkable.

BIG G

[G B Young]

There is no contradiction whatsoever. What Corbyn said in Salford, 'Mr Corbyn said his first priority was to "bring the country back from the brink" and do everything possible to prevent no deal, before then pushing for an election. The gleeful allegations on here are fake news.

BIG G

I've sometimes thought there's a curious correlation between the Corbynistas and Trumpists. Embracing Trump's 'fake news' mantra to bypass uncomfortable truths is certainly a trait shared by both.

In fact...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/jeremy-corbyn-not-boris-johnson-is-britains-trump/

[cabbageandribs1875]

want a GE............look what we could get in westminster, we could maybe escape brexit for Bankruptcy instead :greengrin

22481

[Ozyhibby]

want a GE............look what we could get in westminster, we could maybe escape brexit for Bankruptcy instead :greengrin

22481

Might be just enough for some middle class Scots to switch from No to Yes?


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Might be just enough for some middle class Scots to switch from No to Yes?


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it's the pensioners in Scotland that need to be made aware of what's going to be happening to their pensions after brexit, that triple lock will be the first to go, the MSM appear reluctant to keep informing them of that, if indeed a lot even reach the new tory retirement age that is, a lot of pensioners in this country are not even aware they receive one of the lowest pension in the EU as it is, that's the group we need from NO to YES :agree:

[Colr]

I've sometimes thought there's a curious correlation between the Corbynistas and Trumpists. Embracing Trump's 'fake news' mantra to bypass uncomfortable truths is certainly a trait shared by both.

In fact...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/jeremy-corbyn-not-boris-johnson-is-britains-trump/

All Populists as are the Faragist freaks that have taken over the Tory party.

[GORDONSMITH7]

I've sometimes thought there's a curious correlation between the Corbynistas and Trumpists. Embracing Trump's 'fake news' mantra to bypass uncomfortable truths is certainly a trait shared by both.

In fact...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/jeremy-corbyn-not-boris-johnson-is-britains-trump/

UKYoungconservative, the right wing Tory supporting Spectator, gies a break.

BIG G

[Ozyhibby]

Where McDonnell’s policy on rental housing goes if he is allowed into power. Berlin has already started down this road.
https://capx.co/illiberal-and-economically-illiterate-germanys-new-housing-policy/



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[Hibbyradge]

An ICM poll suggests that support for the Brexit party would double from 9 per cent to 18 per cent if an election takes place after Halloween.

The poll, commissioned by Represent Us — which is pushing for a second Brexit referendum — found the Conservatives’ lead over Labour would evaporate in those circumstances.

The ICM poll suggests the Tories would beat Labour by 37 per cent against 30 per cent in an October election, while the two parties would be neck and neck on 28 per cent in a November poll.

[Bristolhibby]

An ICM poll suggests that support for the Brexit party would double from 9 per cent to 18 per cent if an election takes place after Halloween.

The poll, commissioned by Represent Us — which is pushing for a second Brexit referendum — found the Conservatives’ lead over Labour would evaporate in those circumstances.

The ICM poll suggests the Tories would beat Labour by 37 per cent against 30 per cent in an October election, while the two parties would be neck and neck on 28 per cent in a November poll.

So in that case patently obvious why Corbyn isn’t going for an election prior to the 31st October.

J