Brexit - what will happen next

[Moulin Yarns]

That is only the first thing, because the EU habe decided it is the first thing. But money is obviously more important to the EU than protecting its citizens.

So did the UK offer to settle this issue before negotiations, therefore lifting it out of the politics of the situation?

And if so, who refused?

I am saying your esteemed leader did NOT offer this, I don't habe :wink: to prove anything. You are the one saying they DID offer, but you need to prove it.

It is impossible to prove something didn't happen, so the onus is on you to prove it did.

PS I can't believe I've got myself into this stupid debate with you about something that didn't happen

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I am saying your esteemed leader did NOT offer this, I don't habe :wink: to prove anything. You are the one saying they DID offer, but you need to prove it.

It is impossible to prove something didn't happen, so the onus is on you to prove it did.

PS I can't believe I've got myself into this stupid debate with you about something that didn't happen

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.politico.eu/article/uk-theresa-may-pre-brexit-expats-plan-nixed-by-german-chancellor-angela-merkel-negotiations-european-union-residence/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

So do you accept it did happen?

And do you accept that the EU blocked it?

[ronaldo7]

Fair points, not quite sure she can be called "crazy" though - there is after all a certain "method in her madness" regarding the GE - as she clearly has a better hand in negotiations with a larger HoC majority (if it comes to pass that is) - seems to me that what she fails to realize (for some reason beyond me) is that, despite her claims to the contrary, the "country" really is not united behind her at all. So: is she aware of this and is simply lying to you all, or is she unaware of this and truly believes the country is united behind her - not sure what is worse of the two?

The Uk is split in many directions, whatever May thinks. Many may be behind her, but not in the way she thinks. :greengrin If she continues in the language she used yesterday, she will end up with more battles than she can cope with.

Now is the time for cool heads, unfortunately, not many of them are in the UK Brexit team.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.politico.eu/article/uk-theresa-may-pre-brexit-expats-plan-nixed-by-german-chancellor-angela-merkel-negotiations-european-union-residence/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

So do you accept it did happen?

And do you accept that the EU blocked it?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/why-theresa-may-must-end-the-uncertainty-for-eu-nationals/


They might be given permission to remain, she says, but not until the EU offers the same assurances to Brits living on the Continent. With this, the Prime Minister has put the skids under every EU national living here. This was never supposed to be what Brexit was about. But oddly, under Theresa May, it is now. 23/7/16

http://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-under-pressure-over-eu-citizens-residency-rights-brexit-negotiations/


Theresa May has come under pressure from within her own party to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the U.K. at an early stage in the Brexit negotiations.

May’s government is opposed to unilaterally guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens, instead seeking “reciprocal rights” — an expectation that EU countries will secure the status of British citizens living within their borders, in return for the U.K.’s own guarantees 7/2/17

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/why-theresa-may-must-end-the-uncertainty-for-eu-nationals/



http://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-under-pressure-over-eu-citizens-residency-rights-brexit-negotiations/


I think both of those links predate the stories i linked to by quite a few months, so have been superceded.

Sorry, i think your position is wrong here.

So are you going to lambast the EU and Merkel for playing politics with peoples lives, amd putting the institutions' interests above those of the citizens?

[Moulin Yarns]

I think both of those links predate the stories i linked to by quite a few months, so have been superceded.

Sorry, i think your position is wrong here.

So are you going to lambast the EU and Merkel for playing politics with peoples lives, amd putting the institutions' interests above those of the citizens?

No. The EU is taking the right position, IMO, whereby they represent the 27 countries that will remain when the Tory Government cuts of its nose to spite its face. Just like you will support TM the PM and her position in trying to get the best for London and the south east,

[ronaldo7]

As a Brit I don't find that offensive, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with it.

:agree: The penny has finally dropped for the Uber Brexiteers. They're now ramping up the rhetoric to try and get good ole Blighty onboard.

For all the screaming and shouting from the MSM about the pesky EU plotters, most folk can see though all the Brit Bull.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No. The EU is taking the right position, IMO, whereby they represent the 27 countries that will remain when the Tory Government cuts of its nose to spite its face. Just like you will support TM the PM and her position in trying to get the best for London and the south east,

Ah, ok so when the Eu refuses to discuss the rights of people it is right.

You then blame the UK for playing politics with these people, as a result of the EUs refusal.

Seems unfair to me.

But you do at least accept that it did happen, amd the EU said no?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:agree: The penny has finally dropped for the Uber Brexiteers. They're now ramping up the rhetoric to try and get good ole Blighty onboard.

For all the screaming and shouting from the MSM about the pesky EU plotters, most folk can see though all the Brit Bull.

Well we will find out in june wont we.

[ronaldo7]

Well we will find out in june wont we.

June is not the time.

We won't know the outcome of Brexit for a while yet, unless you know otherwise?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

June is not the time.

We won't know the outcome of Brexit for a while yet, unless you know otherwise?

You said people are starting to see through the bull.

Well the people will deliver a verdict (albeit an intermediate one) in june.

I never mentioned the outcome of brexit, you did.

[ronaldo7]

:agree: The penny has finally dropped for the Uber Brexiteers. They're now ramping up the rhetoric to try and get good ole Blighty onboard.

For all the screaming and shouting from the MSM about the pesky EU plotters, most folk can see though all the Brit Bull.


Well we will find out in june wont we.


June is not the time.

We won't know the outcome of Brexit for a while yet, unless you know otherwise?


You said people are starting to see through the bull.

Well the people will deliver a verdict (albeit an intermediate one) in june.

I never mentioned the outcome of brexit, you did.

I see you trying to put out fires all over the place, but do try and keep up mate.

I mentioned the Uber Brexiteers, on the....Brexit thread. What's the problem with that?

We'll find out naff all about Brexit in June. Or are you involved in Theresa's inner circle of friends and confidants?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I see you trying to put out fires all over the place, but do try and keep up mate.

I mentioned the Uber Brexiteers, on the....Brexit thread. What's the problem with that?

We'll find out naff all about Brexit in June. Or are you involved in Theresa's inner circle of friends and confidants?

You stated anove that people are starting to see through the brexit bull.

I said we will see in june, as the voters habe a chance to deliver an (admittedly interim) verdict on the peolle responsible for your 'brexit bull' in June, so giving us an idea as to whether or not people see it as 'brexit bull'.

You disagree, thats fine.

[ronaldo7]

You stated anove that people are starting to see through the brexit bull.

I said we will see in june, as the voters habe a chance to deliver an (admittedly interim) verdict on the peolle responsible for your 'brexit bull' in June, so giving us an idea as to whether or not people see it as 'brexit bull'.

You disagree, thats fine.

It was Brit Bull. You've now quoted my words wrongly on 3 occasions.

I wish you would read posts before responding.

Time to take a break bud.:aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It was Brit Bull. You've now quoted my words wrongly on 3 occasions.

I wish you would read posts before responding.

Time to take a break bud.:aok:

You are very good at avoiding admitting you are wrong by picling up on little points and congratulating yourself.

Thats two threads today where you have been demonstrably wrong amd then resorted to childish comebacks to try and get the upper hand.

But i suppose when you habe nothing to say on the substance of an argument because you have lost it, a sarky, faux-patronising response and a smiley is all you have left.

Political discourse from the twitter generation.

[Hibrandenburg]

I dont have the actual quotes to hand, but to paraphrase, she said May was living in a dream world, and that many in Britain are suffering from illusions.

Obviously i read this in an english language paper (Guardian) so i accept that there may be elements of 'lost in translation' to it all that you will be able to spot better than i could, given i speak zero German.

Not just lost in translation but completely fictional. I've just spent some time raking through the German press and it seems that the source of the UK media's fabrication and twisting of facts comes from 2 quotes.

The first is from the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier who said "The UK shouldn't be under the illusion that the Brexit process will be painless". Now that's pretty much just stating the facts and is hardly what I'd call threatening.

The second would appear to come from a speech from Merkel where she warns that "The UK will not be allowed to cherry pick what parts of the EU they like". Now again that's just facts and the way it is and not exactly a declaration of war like the UK press would like you to believe.

You now need to ask yourself why are they suddenly reporting what is no better than fake news and upping the anti against the EU so close to a UK General Election? In reality it's the Tories using aggressive anti EU rhetoric to win votes from the extreme right in the GE and not the other way round like they'd have us believe. Pretty disgusting when you think about it.

[Hibrandenburg]

:agree: The penny has finally dropped for the Uber Brexiteers. They're now ramping up the rhetoric to try and get good ole Blighty onboard.

For all the screaming and shouting from the MSM about the pesky EU plotters, most folk can see though all the Brit Bull.

You're understanding of events is spot on, however I fear your trust in Joe Public to see through the propaganda is misplaced. You don't have to look further than this thread to see that. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not just lost in translation but completely fictional. I've just spent some time raking through the German press and it seems that the source of the UK media's fabrication and twisting of facts comes from 2 quotes.

The first is from the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier who said "The UK shouldn't be under the illusion that the Brexit process will be painless". Now that's pretty much just stating the facts and is hardly what I'd call threatening.

The second would appear to come from a speech from Merkel where she warns that "The UK will not be allowed to cherry pick what parts of the EU they like". Now again that's just facts and the way it is and not exactly a declaration of war like the UK press would like you to believe.

You now need to ask yourself why are they suddenly reporting what is no better than fake news and upping the anti against the EU so close to a UK General Election? In reality it's the Tories using aggressive anti EU rhetoric to win votes from the extreme right in the GE and not the other way round like they'd have us believe. Pretty disgusting when you think about it.

Fair enough, i read it in the guardian, which is anti brexit, anti tory and fairly anti UK govt!

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair enough, i read it in the guardian, which is anti brexit, anti tory and fairly anti UK govt!

Even the Guardian wants to sell papers.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Even the Guardian wants to sell papers.

Of course it does, but not generally to rabid tories.

[Hibrandenburg]

Of course it does, but not generally to rabid tories.

You just read it!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You just read it!

And im not a rabid tory.

I just dont subscribe to some of the groupthink here that UK=bad and Europe=good.

The EU are not good, amd the UK is not bad, there are only interests, positioning and posturing from both sides.

But we will never agree, so you go back to beimg brainwashed by the german media, ill continue to be brainwashed by the UK media (particuatly that tory rag the guardian) and we can agree to disagree!

[ronaldo7]

You are very good at avoiding admitting you are wrong by picling up on little points and congratulating yourself.

Thats two threads today where you have been demonstrably wrong amd then resorted to childish comebacks to try and get the upper hand.

But i suppose when you habe nothing to say on the substance of an argument because you have lost it, a sarky, faux-patronising response and a smiley is all you have left.

Political discourse from the twitter generation.

For the love of Theresa.

You need to take a wee lie doon pal. I habe:wink: enjoyed your broad-brush approach today, however I'm not going to be picling:wink: up any of your points, amd:wink: will just go back to twitter where I belong.

Cheers amigo.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting discussion on This Week tonight.

Cutting through all the stuff about who said what and why, the guest from the FT basically said that there would be -

A divorce bill of around 30-50bn paid over a period of years
A generous free trade deal for the UK
But, continuing UK mbrshp of single market beyond 2020 as part of a transitional deal until the comprehensive deal is agreed.

That wouls seem pretty reasonable, i just wish we could avoid what he called 'protracted trencg warfare' that wr are going to have to wade through for the next 13 months or so.

[Hibrandenburg]

Interesting discussion on This Week tonight.

Cutting through all the stuff about who said what and why, the guest from the FT basically said that there would be -

A divorce bill of around 30-50bn paid over a period of years
A generous free trade deal for the UK
But, continuing UK mbrshp of single market beyond 2020 as part of a transitional deal until the comprehensive deal is agreed.

That wouls seem pretty reasonable, i just wish we could avoid what he called 'protracted trencg warfare' that wr are going to have to wade through for the next 13 months or so.

I didn't see the programme so can't comment, but I'd be interested to know why this guy would think there will be a generous free trade deal?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I didn't see the programme so can't comment, but I'd be interested to know why this guy would think there will be a generous free trade deal?

He wad from the FT so maybe had a particuarly business-centric view, but basicallu because that wad in everyones best interssts.

I dont think he meant as good terms as staying in, but rather something punative enough to satisfy Europeans, not so punative as to pi55 off corporate interests or to make the deal too harsh for us.

Oh and of course we would pay for that access. I suppose money talks!

Its on iplayer, it was a good discussion actually.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't see it either, but a wee read of the FT online is the fun way to start the day :greengrin

https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

[Hibrandenburg]

I didn't see it either, but a wee read of the FT online is the fun way to start the day :greengrin

https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

Any chance of a copy n paste job? It won't let us riff-raff in.

[Moulin Yarns]

Any chance of a copy n paste job? It won't let us riff-raff in.

It is nothing to do with the TV interview, just a bit of crystal ball gazing.


https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

The furore over the comprehensive and partisan leak to a German newspaper of the events of the Brexit dinner between Theresa May, Jean-Claude Juncker and their retinues, a leak widely blamed on the European Commission president’s combative chief of staff Martin Selmayr, may lead to a different dynamic at the next gathering.

















Scene: Downing Street. Present: May, Juncker, Selmayr, Michel Barnier, the lead EU negotiator, David Davis, the UK’s Brexit minister, and Nick Timothy, Mrs May’s chief of staff.
@NickJTimothy: Looking forward to second Brexit dinner. Hope goodwill prevails, trust restored.
@MartinSelmayr: Greetings from Downing Street. I’ll be live tweeting our private dinner with secessionist May government.
@FAZ.net #WeKilledVaroufakis
@MartinSelmayr: Downing Street looking shabby, worse than last time. Brexit already taking toll on economy. Cannot be a success. Doubt many can even afford a BMW.
@MartinSelmayr: May and her team subdued and fearful as Juncker arrives. Quiescent nods as he strides manfully into the room. We control process. Time on our side.
@NickJTimothy: Since confidentiality may be breached, I will live tweet an unvarnished account.
@NickJTimothy Greetings from No 10 where strong and stable PM is laying down the law. Juncker stumbles at door, is he drunk already?
@NickJTimothy: PM says no phones at the table and no live tweeting.
@MartinSelmayr: May says no tweeting from the table.
@JunckerEU says we cannot discuss tweeting arrangements until the exit bill is agreed. #27asone
@MartinSelmayr May wearing some kind of designer boiler suit, smoking cigar and going on about her finest hour. Delusional.
@MartinSelmayr: Shocked at British lack of preparations. Food lukewarm; wine below room temperature. Blue Nun. Am 10 times more sceptical than when I arrived.
@MartinSelmayr May asks Davis to pass the salt, he does not hear. May clearly furious. Doubt he will survive.
@JunckerEU May says she has credible intel that western govts and Belgian hackers are trying to influence the outcome of UK election.
@MartinSelmayr: May says EU trying to influence UK election. PARANOIA. It’s the French and German elections we are trying to influence.
@NickJTimothy: Juncker pulls out 1,000-page Serbia accession treaty to show complexity of the negotiations. May pulls out Magna Carta.
@MartinSelmayr: Juncker brandishes 4,000-page trade treaty with Canada. May produces Treaty of Versailles. Juncker pulls out first Gutenberg Bible.
@NickJTimothy Getting hard to eat with all these documents on table. Can barely see Selmayr over the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. Hope he’s not tweeting.
@DavidDavisMP: Barnier says exit bill could be €70bn. We say €30bn. He says maybe €65bn; we say €35bn. Moving towards compromise.
@MartinSelmayr Exit bill now exceeds €100bn. Brexit cannot be a success. Will soon be a disunited Kingdom. #UKisnewGreece
@MartinSelmayr May says Brexit a vote for UK to take back control of its future. Juncker says it was a vote for Europe to take back control of Gibraltar.
@NickJTimothy PM building bonds with Barnier. Talks about shared love of mountain walks. PM asks if he has walked in the Bernese Oberland.
@MartinSelmayr May threatens to take Barnier to Reichenbach Falls. UK is now resorting to menace.
@DavidDavisMP: When EU says Brexit cannot be a success, they mean it can’t be seen to be a success. Barnier says UK can get better deal as long as EU can say it’s a bad deal.
@NickJTimothy PM v pleased with Barnier points. Agrees with all except part about EU calling it a bad deal.
@MartinSelmayr: We will crush you. Brexit cannot succeed. London is the new Athens. No deal is better than a good deal. #Scotlandindyref2
@MartinSelmayr Officials tell May to call Tsipras, find out how this story ends. #AcropolisNow
@MichelBarnier: Constructive meeting. Better atmosphere.
@MartinSelmayr: Call Merkel as we leave. Tell her to be stark und stabil.

[Hibrandenburg]

It is nothing to do with the TV interview, just a bit of crystal ball gazing.


https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

The furore over the comprehensive and partisan leak to a German newspaper of the events of the Brexit dinner between Theresa May, Jean-Claude Juncker and their retinues, a leak widely blamed on the European Commission president’s combative chief of staff Martin Selmayr, may lead to a different dynamic at the next gathering.

















Scene: Downing Street. Present: May, Juncker, Selmayr, Michel Barnier, the lead EU negotiator, David Davis, the UK’s Brexit minister, and Nick Timothy, Mrs May’s chief of staff.
@NickJTimothy: Looking forward to second Brexit dinner. Hope goodwill prevails, trust restored.
@MartinSelmayr: Greetings from Downing Street. I’ll be live tweeting our private dinner with secessionist May government.
@FAZ.net #WeKilledVaroufakis
@MartinSelmayr: Downing Street looking shabby, worse than last time. Brexit already taking toll on economy. Cannot be a success. Doubt many can even afford a BMW.
@MartinSelmayr: May and her team subdued and fearful as Juncker arrives. Quiescent nods as he strides manfully into the room. We control process. Time on our side.
@NickJTimothy: Since confidentiality may be breached, I will live tweet an unvarnished account.
@NickJTimothy Greetings from No 10 where strong and stable PM is laying down the law. Juncker stumbles at door, is he drunk already?
@NickJTimothy: PM says no phones at the table and no live tweeting.
@MartinSelmayr: May says no tweeting from the table.
@JunckerEU says we cannot discuss tweeting arrangements until the exit bill is agreed. #27asone
@MartinSelmayr May wearing some kind of designer boiler suit, smoking cigar and going on about her finest hour. Delusional.
@MartinSelmayr: Shocked at British lack of preparations. Food lukewarm; wine below room temperature. Blue Nun. Am 10 times more sceptical than when I arrived.
@MartinSelmayr May asks Davis to pass the salt, he does not hear. May clearly furious. Doubt he will survive.
@JunckerEU May says she has credible intel that western govts and Belgian hackers are trying to influence the outcome of UK election.
@MartinSelmayr: May says EU trying to influence UK election. PARANOIA. It’s the French and German elections we are trying to influence.
@NickJTimothy: Juncker pulls out 1,000-page Serbia accession treaty to show complexity of the negotiations. May pulls out Magna Carta.
@MartinSelmayr: Juncker brandishes 4,000-page trade treaty with Canada. May produces Treaty of Versailles. Juncker pulls out first Gutenberg Bible.
@NickJTimothy Getting hard to eat with all these documents on table. Can barely see Selmayr over the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. Hope he’s not tweeting.
@DavidDavisMP: Barnier says exit bill could be €70bn. We say €30bn. He says maybe €65bn; we say €35bn. Moving towards compromise.
@MartinSelmayr Exit bill now exceeds €100bn. Brexit cannot be a success. Will soon be a disunited Kingdom. #UKisnewGreece
@MartinSelmayr May says Brexit a vote for UK to take back control of its future. Juncker says it was a vote for Europe to take back control of Gibraltar.
@NickJTimothy PM building bonds with Barnier. Talks about shared love of mountain walks. PM asks if he has walked in the Bernese Oberland.
@MartinSelmayr May threatens to take Barnier to Reichenbach Falls. UK is now resorting to menace.
@DavidDavisMP: When EU says Brexit cannot be a success, they mean it can’t be seen to be a success. Barnier says UK can get better deal as long as EU can say it’s a bad deal.
@NickJTimothy PM v pleased with Barnier points. Agrees with all except part about EU calling it a bad deal.
@MartinSelmayr: We will crush you. Brexit cannot succeed. London is the new Athens. No deal is better than a good deal. #Scotlandindyref2
@MartinSelmayr Officials tell May to call Tsipras, find out how this story ends. #AcropolisNow
@MichelBarnier: Constructive meeting. Better atmosphere.
@MartinSelmayr: Call Merkel as we leave. Tell her to be stark und stabil.

:faf: Thanks, there's some crackers in there.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It is nothing to do with the TV interview, just a bit of crystal ball gazing.


https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

The furore over the comprehensive and partisan leak to a German newspaper of the events of the Brexit dinner between Theresa May, Jean-Claude Juncker and their retinues, a leak widely blamed on the European Commission president’s combative chief of staff Martin Selmayr, may lead to a different dynamic at the next gathering.

















Scene: Downing Street. Present: May, Juncker, Selmayr, Michel Barnier, the lead EU negotiator, David Davis, the UK’s Brexit minister, and Nick Timothy, Mrs May’s chief of staff.
@NickJTimothy: Looking forward to second Brexit dinner. Hope goodwill prevails, trust restored.
@MartinSelmayr: Greetings from Downing Street. I’ll be live tweeting our private dinner with secessionist May government.
@FAZ.net #WeKilledVaroufakis
@MartinSelmayr: Downing Street looking shabby, worse than last time. Brexit already taking toll on economy. Cannot be a success. Doubt many can even afford a BMW.
@MartinSelmayr: May and her team subdued and fearful as Juncker arrives. Quiescent nods as he strides manfully into the room. We control process. Time on our side.
@NickJTimothy: Since confidentiality may be breached, I will live tweet an unvarnished account.
@NickJTimothy Greetings from No 10 where strong and stable PM is laying down the law. Juncker stumbles at door, is he drunk already?
@NickJTimothy: PM says no phones at the table and no live tweeting.
@MartinSelmayr: May says no tweeting from the table.
@JunckerEU says we cannot discuss tweeting arrangements until the exit bill is agreed. #27asone
@MartinSelmayr May wearing some kind of designer boiler suit, smoking cigar and going on about her finest hour. Delusional.
@MartinSelmayr: Shocked at British lack of preparations. Food lukewarm; wine below room temperature. Blue Nun. Am 10 times more sceptical than when I arrived.
@MartinSelmayr May asks Davis to pass the salt, he does not hear. May clearly furious. Doubt he will survive.
@JunckerEU May says she has credible intel that western govts and Belgian hackers are trying to influence the outcome of UK election.
@MartinSelmayr: May says EU trying to influence UK election. PARANOIA. It’s the French and German elections we are trying to influence.
@NickJTimothy: Juncker pulls out 1,000-page Serbia accession treaty to show complexity of the negotiations. May pulls out Magna Carta.
@MartinSelmayr: Juncker brandishes 4,000-page trade treaty with Canada. May produces Treaty of Versailles. Juncker pulls out first Gutenberg Bible.
@NickJTimothy Getting hard to eat with all these documents on table. Can barely see Selmayr over the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. Hope he’s not tweeting.
@DavidDavisMP: Barnier says exit bill could be €70bn. We say €30bn. He says maybe €65bn; we say €35bn. Moving towards compromise.
@MartinSelmayr Exit bill now exceeds €100bn. Brexit cannot be a success. Will soon be a disunited Kingdom. #UKisnewGreece
@MartinSelmayr May says Brexit a vote for UK to take back control of its future. Juncker says it was a vote for Europe to take back control of Gibraltar.
@NickJTimothy PM building bonds with Barnier. Talks about shared love of mountain walks. PM asks if he has walked in the Bernese Oberland.
@MartinSelmayr May threatens to take Barnier to Reichenbach Falls. UK is now resorting to menace.
@DavidDavisMP: When EU says Brexit cannot be a success, they mean it can’t be seen to be a success. Barnier says UK can get better deal as long as EU can say it’s a bad deal.
@NickJTimothy PM v pleased with Barnier points. Agrees with all except part about EU calling it a bad deal.
@MartinSelmayr: We will crush you. Brexit cannot succeed. London is the new Athens. No deal is better than a good deal. #Scotlandindyref2
@MartinSelmayr Officials tell May to call Tsipras, find out how this story ends. #AcropolisNow
@MichelBarnier: Constructive meeting. Better atmosphere.
@MartinSelmayr: Call Merkel as we leave. Tell her to be stark und stabil.

That is good!

[Betty Boop]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/374b5959b4ac295f5bc9d43f18eaf37e30ca0a91/0_0_480_507/master/480.jpg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&

[HiBremian]

It is nothing to do with the TV interview, just a bit of crystal ball gazing.


https://www.ft.com/content/873f471c-30a8-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

The furore over the comprehensive and partisan leak to a German newspaper of the events of the Brexit dinner between Theresa May, Jean-Claude Juncker and their retinues, a leak widely blamed on the European Commission president’s combative chief of staff Martin Selmayr, may lead to a different dynamic at the next gathering.

















Scene: Downing Street. Present: May, Juncker, Selmayr, Michel Barnier, the lead EU negotiator, David Davis, the UK’s Brexit minister, and Nick Timothy, Mrs May’s chief of staff.
@NickJTimothy: Looking forward to second Brexit dinner. Hope goodwill prevails, trust restored.
@MartinSelmayr: Greetings from Downing Street. I’ll be live tweeting our private dinner with secessionist May government.
@FAZ.net #WeKilledVaroufakis
@MartinSelmayr: Downing Street looking shabby, worse than last time. Brexit already taking toll on economy. Cannot be a success. Doubt many can even afford a BMW.
@MartinSelmayr: May and her team subdued and fearful as Juncker arrives. Quiescent nods as he strides manfully into the room. We control process. Time on our side.
@NickJTimothy: Since confidentiality may be breached, I will live tweet an unvarnished account.
@NickJTimothy Greetings from No 10 where strong and stable PM is laying down the law. Juncker stumbles at door, is he drunk already?
@NickJTimothy: PM says no phones at the table and no live tweeting.
@MartinSelmayr: May says no tweeting from the table.
@JunckerEU says we cannot discuss tweeting arrangements until the exit bill is agreed. #27asone
@MartinSelmayr May wearing some kind of designer boiler suit, smoking cigar and going on about her finest hour. Delusional.
@MartinSelmayr: Shocked at British lack of preparations. Food lukewarm; wine below room temperature. Blue Nun. Am 10 times more sceptical than when I arrived.
@MartinSelmayr May asks Davis to pass the salt, he does not hear. May clearly furious. Doubt he will survive.
@JunckerEU May says she has credible intel that western govts and Belgian hackers are trying to influence the outcome of UK election.
@MartinSelmayr: May says EU trying to influence UK election. PARANOIA. It’s the French and German elections we are trying to influence.
@NickJTimothy: Juncker pulls out 1,000-page Serbia accession treaty to show complexity of the negotiations. May pulls out Magna Carta.
@MartinSelmayr: Juncker brandishes 4,000-page trade treaty with Canada. May produces Treaty of Versailles. Juncker pulls out first Gutenberg Bible.
@NickJTimothy Getting hard to eat with all these documents on table. Can barely see Selmayr over the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive. Hope he’s not tweeting.
@DavidDavisMP: Barnier says exit bill could be €70bn. We say €30bn. He says maybe €65bn; we say €35bn. Moving towards compromise.
@MartinSelmayr Exit bill now exceeds €100bn. Brexit cannot be a success. Will soon be a disunited Kingdom. #UKisnewGreece
@MartinSelmayr May says Brexit a vote for UK to take back control of its future. Juncker says it was a vote for Europe to take back control of Gibraltar.
@NickJTimothy PM building bonds with Barnier. Talks about shared love of mountain walks. PM asks if he has walked in the Bernese Oberland.
@MartinSelmayr May threatens to take Barnier to Reichenbach Falls. UK is now resorting to menace.
@DavidDavisMP: When EU says Brexit cannot be a success, they mean it can’t be seen to be a success. Barnier says UK can get better deal as long as EU can say it’s a bad deal.
@NickJTimothy PM v pleased with Barnier points. Agrees with all except part about EU calling it a bad deal.
@MartinSelmayr: We will crush you. Brexit cannot succeed. London is the new Athens. No deal is better than a good deal. #Scotlandindyref2
@MartinSelmayr Officials tell May to call Tsipras, find out how this story ends. #AcropolisNow
@MichelBarnier: Constructive meeting. Better atmosphere.
@MartinSelmayr: Call Merkel as we leave. Tell her to be stark und stabil.

Brilliant. stark und stabil. Just say it in German and the whole tory election strategy becomes the joke that it is.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Bank of England, looking forward. Signs are not too good.

Mark Carney,

This year will be "a more challenging time for British households" and "wages won't keep up with prices", he said.
He was upbeat about wage growth beyond 2017 - but only if the government secures a "smooth" exit from the EU.
It came as the bank trimmed UK economic growth forecasts for 2017 from 2% to 1.9% and held interest rates at 0.25%.
The bank, unveiling its Quarterly Inflation Report, also raised its forecast for inflation this year to 2.8% from its February forecast of 2.4%.
Interest rates are set by the Bank's Monetary Policy Committee (MPC), which is tasked with keeping inflation at 2%

https://t.co/QJS7dtY4q9

[Slavers]

Bank of England, looking forward. Signs are not too good.

Mark Carney,

This year will be "a more challenging time for British households" and "wages won't keep up with prices", he said.
He was upbeat about wage growth beyond 2017 - but only if the government secures a "smooth" exit from the EU.
It came as the bank trimmed UK economic growth forecasts for 2017 from 2% to 1.9% and held interest rates at 0.25%.
The bank, unveiling its Quarterly Inflation Report, also raised its forecast for inflation this year to 2.8% from its February forecast of 2.4%.
Interest rates are set by the Bank's Monetary Policy Committee (MPC), which is tasked with keeping inflation at 2%

https://t.co/QJS7dtY4q9

Imagine how bad it would be if Scotland went independent :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Imagine how bad it would be if Scotland went independent :greengrin


Heaven forbid an independent country did better than the UK....

https://www.ft.com/content/5748f922-8d87-3f40-a710-33370cf68140

[marinello59]

Imagine how bad it would be if Scotland went independent :greengrin

I prefer to imagine how good it would be. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Imagine how bad it would be if Scotland went independent :greengrin

Imagine having to make all those decisions, without asking your neighbours to do it for you. How very grown up eh.:wink:

[Slavers]

I prefer to imagine how good it would be. :greengrin

Then why can't the same apply to brexit. Why is one a disaster and the other land of milk and honey?

Brexit could be the same success as the independent Scotland you imagine.

[Slavers]

Imagine having to make all those decisions, without asking your neighbours to do it for you. How very grown up eh.:wink:

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.

[grunt]

This is the Brexit thread. Independence discussion is here http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?319792-Indy-Ref-2
But since you're here. ..
It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.
Depends on what type of union you're talking about. The UK was supposed to be a union of equals - it isn't.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU. Again, it depends on what you get from that representation. Scotland's 56 MPs at Westminster gets us no influence whatsoever.
We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this. It's not the number of MPs that is the issue, it's the nature of the union. The EU doesn't "rule" its member states. In large part they are free to make their own decisions. Not the case in the UK, where Scotland is governed by the majority in Westminster. "Now is not the time", remember?
For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.No doubt there are some who think this. But you'll need to look long and hard to find any official statement from the SNP that says this. Sturgeon in particular is careful to never say anything against the English. This is a Daily Mail myth.

[ronaldo7]

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.


So much wrong with this post, however since Grunt has eviscerated it, I'll leave it at that.:thumbsup:

One thing I would ask you to do is read this. https://t.co/5BubBZSvc1

Your comment on anti English sentiment leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Just Alf]

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.

I always enjoy the debate on here and sometimes think we should have a .net "question time" event in the Perevere one night, but, but..... That last paragraph, sigh.... You DO know that's the exact opposite for what the party stands for? The English (and others) SNP members wouldn't recognise that feeling in the current party.

Thinking on it, the last person to come out with that line face to face was when I was down south having a pint with a work colleague, he was a UKIP'r and genuinely thought SNP = BNP as that's what the English versions of the mail etc always seemed to imply.

[Slavers]

So much wrong with this post, however since Grunt has eviscerated it, I'll leave it at that.:thumbsup:

One thing I would ask you to do is read this. https://t.co/5BubBZSvc1

Your comment on anti English sentiment leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So does being referred to as a unionist by fellow countrymen but that doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth it seems.

[ronaldo7]

So does being referred to as a unionist by fellow countrymen but that doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth it seems.

It's in the name. There are different hues of unionist. I'll give you that.

[grunt]

So does being referred to as a unionist by fellow countrymen ...Why does this bother you? Are you not in favour of the union with England? Forgive me if I've picked you up incorrectly.

[Slavers]

Why does this bother you? Are you not in favour of the union with England? Forgive me if I've picked you up incorrectly.

We don't need these divisive terms in Scotland. I see a persecution of unionist in an independent Scotland - Much like predicted persecution of EU nationals in England.

[CropleyWasGod]

We don't need these divisive terms in Scotland. I see a persecution of unionist in an independent Scotland - Much like predicted persecution of EU nationals in England.

Would it help if the Conservatives dropped the term from their name?

[Moulin Yarns]

The Conservative And Party :confused:

How can you be conservative and party?? Maybe shouldn't Labour the point. Perhaps too liberal an idea, might need a democratic decision.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Conservative And Party :confused:

:greengrin

David Mundell and..... Partayyyyyy

Man, you're so Green at times.

[Moulin Yarns]

:greengrin

David Mundell and..... Partayyyyyy

Man, you're so Green at times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng

[grunt]

A speech and a half from Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil leader in Ireland.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-by-ff-leader-micheal-martin-at-dail-seanad-session-with-michel-barnier/


Last year’s referendum was an ugly and negative affair. No amount of warm words and earnest statements can cover this up. There was no strategy for implementing Brexit, there was just a strategy for winning the vote through a combination of bluster and aggression. It was not a positive assertion of sovereignty; it was the culmination of 30 years of an increasingly corrosive scapegoating of Europe and immigrants for the home-grown divisions in British society.

Those false prophets who promised an economic bonanza are now claiming that they have defied the critics and Britain is booming. This is nonsense. Public borrowing and taxes have already risen since the vote and the long-term damage to employment and standards of living is becoming ever more certain.

Fundamentally, the narrow Brexit majority represented a rejection of strong rule-based cooperation between states. It asserted a narrow vision of sovereignty which developed in the 19th Century and directly led to the two bloodiest wars in history.

Let there be no doubt about where Ireland stands. We want nothing to do with a backward-looking idea of sovereignty. We remain absolutely committed to the ideals of the European Union.

We see the Union for what it is – the most successful international organisation in world history.

And while the extremes of right and left join together to attack it, they have no credible response to the fact that every member state has secured a significant rise in living standards and a continent once defined by conflict is today defined by cooperation.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.

Oh no, not again. :rolleyes:

Scotland gave up *all* of its sovereignty by joining the UK. Scotland has no say in UK government unless it has individual members of the governing party and they have no responsibility to act in the Scottish national interest (if such a thing can even be said to exist in the UK). In fact, on the contrary, they are mandated to act in UK national interest even if that were detrimental to Scotland.

By contrast, every country in the EU has guaranteed representation on the Council of Ministers. Voices which are specifically mandated to act in their national interest to find co-operative solutions with their European partners.

As for the anti-English sentiment stuff, frankly that's just offensive rubbish. There is nothing anti-anybody else about just wanting to be a proper country that runs its own affairs. Like, you know, *all the other ones*.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Oh no, not again. :rolleyes:

Scotland gave up *all* of its sovereignty by joining the UK. Scotland has no say in UK government unless it has individual members of the governing party and they have no responsibility to act in the Scottish national interest (if such a thing can even be said to exist in the UK). In fact, on the contrary, they are mandated to act in UK national interest even if that were detrimental to Scotland.

By contrast, every country in the EU has guaranteed representation on the Council of Ministers. Voices which are specifically mandated to act in their national interest to find co-operative solutions with their European partners.

As for the anti-English sentiment stuff, frankly that's just offensive rubbish. There is nothing anti-anybody else about just wanting to be a proper country that runs its own affairs. Like, you know, *all the other ones*.

It seems that increasingly, the EU's positions trump those of member states too i would say.

And England and Wales also gave up their sovereignty, hence shared soveriegnty.

I think the EU is heading that way, or at least the EU wants to.

I see the arguments of indy, but i increasingly dont see the benefit in the EU.

[grunt]

It seems that increasingly, the EU's positions trump those of member states too i would say.
Can you give an example of this please?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Can you give an example of this please?

Punishing countries who want to leave?

The EURO?

Some would have said TTIP?

Numerous regulations that will benefit some over others.

[Peevemor]

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

Eh? You are joking?


For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.

Nonsense. Anti English/SE rule maybe, but not anti-English.

[Peevemor]

Punishing countries who want to leave?

The EURO?

Some would have said TTIP?

It's not about punishing countries, it's about being clear on what leaving means.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's not about punishing countries, it's about being clear on what leaving means.

Yeah, quite clear that they will be punished, to protect the integrity and benefits of the EU, even if that has consequences for member state economies, which it may well do.

Hence the interests of the EU are put above industries, jons etc.

Even if you change the word punish to consequences, those consequences arent to the benefit of membet states. The EU had become an entity in its own right- an above-nation state, much like the UK.

I voted to remain by the way, but blank sheet.of paper if we become indy, its not a club i would like to see Scotland join.

[WeeRussell]

It's called being part of a union. You give up some of your sovereign status as a nation to form a union with other nations.

We get better represented at Westminster now that we would as an independent Scotland in the EU.

We have more of a say in the how the UK is now than we would have in the EU being 'independent'. The number of MP'S wed have in each scenario proves this.

For me the Scottish nationalist movement is born through anti English sentiment and it's still in the core of the movement although it will never now be admitted but scratch the surface enough and yill find the sane old ' sending them home ti think again' mindset.

In my experience it works in the opposite direction. I never, and I mean never, hear anyone in support of independence giving it "We want away from those English b*******s" etc etc. But I do hear the line you've just pedalled out from anti-indy people fairly regularly. I think it stops people from looking at the real case for independence, or at least serves as a convenient (albeit poor) excuse for those not willing to entertain it.

There will be more people offended by being labelled "anti english", than there will be english people offended by a plausible cause for Scottish independence.

[JeMeSouviens]

It seems that increasingly, the EU's positions trump those of member states too i would say.

And England and Wales also gave up their sovereignty, hence shared soveriegnty.

I think the EU is heading that way, or at least the EU wants to.

I see the arguments of indy, but i increasingly dont see the benefit in the EU.

Wales didn't have any to give up*. The population imbalance is such that England completely dominates the UK. Plus the seat of government and all the main institutions of state are in London.

By contrast, Germany only represents 15% of the EU population and the institutions are located in a smaller, less powerful capital.

There is undoubtedly a tendency among some European politicians towards closer integration but it's still a 100 million miles away from the situation we find ourselves in as a region of the UK. I doubt there is much appetite for any closer integration around in Europe for the foreseeable anyway. Which is probably a good thing as I think it had run ahead of where popular consent for it lies, at least in most countries.


* I thought most of the guff about Scottish Educational standards was just propaganda but, given the grasp of history around here, I'm starting to have doubts. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah, quite clear that they will be punished, to protect the integrity and benefits of the EU, even if that has consequences for member state economies, which it may well do.

Hence the interests of the EU are put above industries, jons etc.

Even if you change the word punish to consequences, those consequences arent to the benefit of membet states. The EU had become an entity in its own right- an above-nation state, much like the UK.

I voted to remain by the way, but blank sheet.of paper if we become indy, its not a club i would like to see Scotland join.

If you cancel your gym membership the consequences are that you can't use the gym. It's not punishment, it's just a fact of life. Either you're in or you're out unless you strike a deal to pay for some amenities.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Wales didn't have any to give up*. The population imbalance is such that England completely dominates the UK. Plus the seat of government and all the main institutions of state are in London.

By contrast, Germany only represents 15% of the EU population and the institutions are located in a smaller, less powerful capital.

There is undoubtedly a tendency among some European politicians towards closer integration but it's still a 100 million miles away from the situation we find ourselves in as a region of the UK. I doubt there is much appetite for any closer integration around in Europe for the foreseeable anyway. Which is probably a good thing as I think it had run ahead of where popular consent for it lies, at least in most countries.


* I thought most of the guff about Scottish Educational standards was just propaganda but, given the grasp of history around here, I'm starting to have doubts. :wink:

I take your point on wales, but in theory at least, they still choose to be part of the UK.

You are right about germany, but our of 27 nation states the five biggest (excl us) make up over half the pop i think, and scotlabd would be the 18th or 19th biggest country out of 27, and comprise a lot less than the 9% of the pop we do in the UK.

Its all just preference, there is no right or wrong answer, i agree that the UK is too centralised, and i agree that it needs reform also. There is no perfect solution. But i wouldn't want us to junp straight into the Eu, id want us to take a long, hard look at what we as a country wanted to do and not rush into anything based on party lines.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you cancel your gym membership the consequences are that you can't use the gym. It's not punishment, it's just a fact of life. Either you're in or you're out unless you strike a deal to pay for some amenities.

That analogy seems a tad reductive.

[JimBHibees]

A speech and a half from Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil leader in Ireland.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-by-ff-leader-micheal-martin-at-dail-seanad-session-with-michel-barnier/

Excellent speech.

[JeMeSouviens]

I take your point on wales, but in theory at least, they still choose to be part of the UK.

You are right about germany, but our of 27 nation states the five biggest (excl us) make up over half the pop i think, and scotlabd would be the 18th or 19th biggest country out of 27, and comprise a lot less than the 9% of the pop we do in the UK.

Its all just preference, there is no right or wrong answer, i agree that the UK is too centralised, and i agree that it needs reform also. There is no perfect solution. But i wouldn't want us to junp straight into the Eu, id want us to take a long, hard look at what we as a country wanted to do and not rush into anything based on party lines.

I would be in favour of EU membership but I'd actually like to see it endorsed by a separate referendum. EEA membership (aka Norway option) which puts us fully inside the single market would be a good transitional arrangement in my view.

[JeMeSouviens]

A speech and a half from Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil leader in Ireland.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-by-ff-leader-micheal-martin-at-dail-seanad-session-with-michel-barnier/

Don't know if you saw this one last year?

https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-of-fianna-fail-leader-micheal-martin-on-the-uk-eu-referendum/


The issue of Scotland’s position has already been placed to the fore by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. The future of Scotland within the UK is a matter for the people of Scotland. However the future of Scotland within the EU should it leave the UK is a matter which concerns all EU states.

I and my party believe that it would be unacceptable for Scotland to be treated as a normal candidate country should it seek to remain as a member of the EU. It currently implements all EU laws. It manifestly would not need to be reviewed for its standards of governance and ability to implement EU laws. It has a strong administration, a distinct legal system and an absolute commitment to European ideals.

Scotland is strong enough to advocate for itself, but Ireland should be its friend and demand fair play should it seek to remain in the EU.

[grunt]

Don't know if you saw this one last year?

https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-of-fianna-fail-leader-micheal-martin-on-the-uk-eu-referendum/No I didn't see that, thanks for posting.
Have to say I'm warming to the guy!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would be in favour of EU membership but I'd actually like to see it endorsed by a separate referendum. EEA membership (aka Norway option) which puts us fully inside the single market would be a good transitional arrangement in my view.

Agree with that, and agree about the referendum.

[Hibrandenburg]

That analogy seems a tad reductive.

Maybe, but you can guarantee it will be the basis of negotiations.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe, but you can guarantee it will be the basis of negotiations.

Only with the gym demanding we pay for new equipment after oir membership!

In all seriousness, whem i left the gym they bombarded me with offers and incentives to stay and then rejoin

This is obviously thsy way they run gyms on the continent- demand exit fees, gold will and five you a quicl punishment beating to encourage others not to leave.

[Hibrandenburg]

Only with the gym demanding we pay for new equipment after oir membership!

In all seriousness, whem i left the gym they bombarded me with offers and incentives to stay and then rejoin

This is obviously thsy way they run gyms on the continent- demand exit fees, gold will and five you a quicl punishment beating to encourage others not to leave.

No, we just want our towels back that you hired and you still have a bar tab to clear.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No, we just want our towels back that you hired and you still have a bar tab to clear.

Ha ha, aye good luck with that!

[makaveli1875]

No, we just want our towels back that you hired and you still have a bar tab to clear.

in the event of a yes vote in indyref2 would you be happy for scotland to be hit with a ludicrous divorce/exit bill from the UK ?

[Hibrandenburg]

in the event of a yes vote in indyref2 would you be happy for scotland to be hit with a ludicrous divorce/exit bill from the UK ?

I'd be happy for Scotland to pay it's fair share provided we get a fair cut of the joint assets.

[makaveli1875]

I'd be happy for Scotland to pay it's fair share provided we get a fair cut of the joint assets.

i didnt ask if you were happy to pay a fair share , i asked if you'd be happy to pay a ludicrous amount ?

[Hibrandenburg]

i didnt ask if you were happy to pay a fair share , i asked if you'd be happy to pay a ludicrous amount ?

If it was the conditions set out when joining the union then yes! I wish people would get out of their heads that the EU intends to give the UK some kind of financial fine. All they're saying is that the UK has to stick to the article 50 terms that they signed up to when they joined. This was all known prior to the Brexit vote so I'm astounded that it seems to have come as a surprise to the government.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If it was the conditions set out when joining the union then yes! I wish people would get out of their heads that the EU intends to give the UK some kind of financial fine. All they're saying is that the UK has to stick to the article 50 terms that they signed up to when they joined. This was all known prior to the Brexit vote so I'm astounded that it seems to have come as a surprise to the government.


Article 50 in full - dont see anything about financial liabilities?


Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

< Prev

[makaveli1875]

If it was the conditions set out when joining the union then yes! I wish people would get out of their heads that the EU intends to give the UK some kind of financial fine. All they're saying is that the UK has to stick to the article 50 terms that they signed up to when they joined. This was all known prior to the Brexit vote so I'm astounded that it seems to have come as a surprise to the government.

What were the article 50 terms ? its been quoted as anything between £30 billion and £100 billion so what were the terms that the UK signed upto ? was it £30 billion or 100 surely it must be in black and white somewhere

it looks to me like the EU are just making it up as they go along and trying to screw us for all they can

[Hibrandenburg]

Article 50 in full -


Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

< Prev

Pretty straight forward really.

[Hibrandenburg]

What were the article 50 terms ? its been quoted as anything between £30 billion and £100 billion so what were the terms that the UK signed upto ? was it £30 billion or 100 surely it must be in black and white somewhere

it looks to me like the EU are just making it up as they go along and trying to screw us for all they can

Paragraph 3. means that the UK will have to abide by any obligations it has until either agreement is found or after 2 years at the latest. The UK has announced its intention to leave but put simply it's subscription still has another 2 years to run.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Pretty straight forward really.

Straight forward like.... being made up as we go along?

[Bristolhibby]

I'm a member of a squash club. The club comes out to all members to get us to fund a new court and bar. We all agree to fund it.

Contracts are let, budgets are set and work is underway.

I decide I want to leave the club. The club says that I agreed to part fund the new court and bar way before I decided to leave and that contractors are needing to be paid. I'm not being fined for leaving. I just have to pay up what I promised to fund.

At some point in the future I might get a discounted guest membership for occasional use. However that's for me to negotiate, as I really want to use the bar once and a while.

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Paragraph 3. means that the UK will have to abide by any obligations it has until either agreement is found or after 2 years at the latest. The UK has announced its intention to leave but put simply it's subscription still has another 2 years to run.

But the brexit bill isnt about two years of members subs. Its about trying to fill the enormous, UK shaped hole in its budgets for the next however many years.

I read para 3 as saying all treaty obligations cease at the date of agreement or 2 years from notification. Nothing about contiune to help fund the EU after we have left.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm a member of a squash club. The club comes out to all members to get us to fund a new court and bar. We all agree to fund it.

Contracts are let, budgets are set and work is underway.

I decide I want to leave the club. The club says that I agreed to part fund the new court and bar way before I decided to leave and that contractors are needing to be paid. I'm not being fined for leaving. I just have to pay up what I promised to fund.

At some point in the future I might get a discounted guest membership for occasional use. However that's for me to negotiate, as I really want to use the bar once and a while.

J

I dont knoe many clubs that operate like that!

Ok, so if Scotland became independent, would you be happy for us to pay for trident renewal amd to thw two QE2 carriers for the lifetime of their use, because we were party to them being commissioned?

[Hibrandenburg]

But the brexit bill isnt about two years of members subs. Its about trying to fill the enormous, UK shaped hole in its budgets for the next however many years.

I read para 3 as saying all treaty obligations cease at the date of agreement or 2 years from notification. Nothing about contiune to help fund the EU after we have left.

And who exactly is saying we have to? There will be ongoing projects that the UK has committed to beyond the 2 years, are you saying it's OK for them to now welch on those projects that they committed to?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And who exactly is saying we have to? There will be ongoing projects that the UK has committed to beyond the 2 years, are you saying it's OK for them to now welch on those projects that they committed to?

Thats the same principle you are arguing for, isnt it?

I think the UK should pay its dues for the next 2 years. After that, its all points to be negotiated over. But i dont feel we are obliged, although morally i think we should pay something, as long as we get things in return.

Which, incidentally is what i think will end up happening. The EU has more cards, but the UK has some good ones too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats the same principle you are arguing for, isnt it?

I think the UK should pay its dues for the next 2 years. After that, its all points to be negotiated over. But i dont feel we are obliged, although morally i think we should pay something, as long as we get things in return.

Which, incidentally is what i think will end up happening. The EU has more cards, but the UK has some good ones too.

The outstanding debt must be paid. Regarding ongoing commitments thereafter it would jeopardise any chance of a deal if the UK was to welch on these commitments. Whether this Tory government actually wants a deal is a different story altogether.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The outstanding debt must be paid. Regarding ongoing commitments thereafter it would jeopardise any chance of a deal if the UK was to welch on these commitments. Whether this Tory government actually wants a deal is a different story altogether.

What debt though?

[Hibrandenburg]

What debt though?

A mixture of various things. The dues they have to pay as an EU member, the 7 year financial planning that Cameron signed up to and all other commitments the UK has made.

[RyeSloan]

I'd be happy for Scotland to pay it's fair share provided we get a fair cut of the joint assets.

Britains NET liabilities are £2.1trn...you saying you are happy for Scotland to pay its's fair share but just how much of that £2.1trn are you happy to pay?

[Hibrandenburg]

Britains NET liabilities are £2.1trn...you saying you are happy for Scotland to pay its's fair share but just how much of that £2.1trn are you happy to pay?

I'd have to see the breakdown of how that was accumulated.

[RyeSloan]

I'd have to see the breakdown of how that was accumulated.

Said Nicola to Theresa [emoji23]

Not being funny but when people say they are happy to pay something they normally know how much it would be...[emoji57]

[Mr Grieves]

What were the article 50 terms ? its been quoted as anything between £30 billion and £100 billion so what were the terms that the UK signed upto ? was it £30 billion or 100 surely it must be in black and white somewhere


Oh, the uncertainty!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A mixture of various things. The dues they have to pay as an EU member, the 7 year financial planning that Cameron signed up to and all other commitments the UK has made.

Ok, so even though none of that is in artixle 50, because the EU says we owe them, we have to pay?

I dont see that happening somehow.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ok, so even though none of that is in artixle 50, because the EU says we owe them, we have to pay?

I dont see that happening somehow.

Now that's a pretty silly comment. It'll all be on record and if the UK has signed up to it then the UK should pay for it. Do you seriously think the EU will enter into new deals with the UK if the UK welches on the old ones?

[ronaldo7]

Now that's a pretty silly comment. It'll all be on record and if the UK has signed up to it then the UK should pay for it. Do you seriously think the EU will enter into new deals with the UK if the UK welches on the old ones?

We have to honour the commitments made for all budgets we signed up to including pensions.

It's simple really.

[makaveli1875]

We have to honour the commitments made for all budgets we signed up to including pensions.

It's simple really.

Do you actually know what we signed up to or are you just guessing ?

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you actually know what we signed up to or are you just guessing ?

The UK signed up to the EU's 7 year budget and will be obliged to pay it's dues until at least 2020. Our obligations don't stop there though and the UK will be paying into the EU pension fund until at least 2030, the payments will gradually reduce but they'll still have to be made.

I didn't get an answer from SH but maybe you'll oblige. Do you think the EU will make any new deals with the UK if we welch on the old deals we've already made?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Now that's a pretty silly comment. It'll all be on record and if the UK has signed up to it then the UK should pay for it. Do you seriously think the EU will enter into new deals with the UK if the UK welches on the old ones?

A silly comment?

So you would go into a negotiation alllwing the other side to determine what your exit bill should be? Now THAT would be silly.

I have never said wr shouldnt pay what are genuine and legitimate bills, we ahould do that - but we should negotiate hard before we agree.

We also need to get our share of the assets, which given we are ine of very few net contributors, should be worth a pretty penny and will go some way to offset our liabilities.

To answer your question, no of course not. But that ls not what im suggesting, or what anyone is.

Do you think that scotland would, if it left the UK, be liable for our share of trident renewal and the new carriers for their lifetime?

[ronaldo7]

Do you actually know what we signed up to or are you just guessing ?

I know that we've signed up to commitments in the last EU budget, which will cost money, including peoples pensions.

Are you saying we should just walk away, and not pay our share?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The UK signed up to the EU's 7 year budget and will be obliged to pay it's dues until at least 2020. Our obligations don't stop there though and the UK will be paying into the EU pension fund until at least 2030, the payments will gradually reduce but they'll still have to be made.

I didn't get an answer from SH but maybe you'll oblige. Do you think the EU will make any new deals with the UK if we welch on the old deals we've already made?

Ive answered above.

Ok, so given the EU sre going to drive such a hard bargain, what leverage do the EU habe to force us to acccept these liabilities?

And what are your thoughts on scotlands commitments to rUK?

[grunt]

We also need to get our share of the assets, which given we are ine of very few net contributors, should be worth a pretty penny and will go some way to offset our liabilities.What assets do you suppose there would be, that we're due a share of?

[grunt]

Ok, so given the EU sre going to drive such a hard bargain, what leverage do the EU habe to force us to acccept these liabilities?Do you want to be part of a country that doesn't honour its debts? What would that say about the UK, do you think?

[Moulin Yarns]

What assets do you suppose there would be, that we're due a share of?


The eleventh floor of an office block in Luxembourg :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What assets do you suppose there would be, that we're due a share of?

Have you ever been to Brussels?

Lots and lots of property and estate. And of course across Europe, and the world. An enormous amount, that will be worth billions. As one of the EC members and a net contributor, id say our share would be substantial.

Possibly the Europort at Rotterdam (dont know how that is owned).

Any cash reserves, the food mountain, and probably all manner of other things we dont know about.

[makaveli1875]

The UK signed up to the EU's 7 year budget and will be obliged to pay it's dues until at least 2020. Our obligations don't stop there though and the UK will be paying into the EU pension fund until at least 2030, the payments will gradually reduce but they'll still have to be made.

I didn't get an answer from SH but maybe you'll oblige. Do you think the EU will make any new deals with the UK if we welch on the old deals we've already made?

Iv honestly got no idea , i think if we pay in your words a 'fair share' then theres no reason why they wouldnt make deals . i wouldnt call £100 billion a fair share though . That to me is a complete p155 take

[Hibrandenburg]

A silly comment?

So you would go into a negotiation alllwing the other side to determine what your exit bill should be? Now THAT would be silly.

I have never said wr shouldnt pay what are genuine and legitimate bills, we ahould do that - but we should negotiate hard before we agree.

We also need to get our share of the assets, which given we are ine of very few net contributors, should be worth a pretty penny and will go some way to offset our liabilities.

To answer your question, no of course not. But that ls not what im suggesting, or what anyone is.

Do you think that scotland would, if it left the UK, be liable for our share of trident renewal and the new carriers for their lifetime?

Again it depends on the deal. If we were to get part of the assets then yes. But can you seriously see the rest UK (Westminster) parting with those assets? Even if they did there'd be a strong movement in an independent Scotland to pay off our share then scrap the Nukes. Another alternative would be to negotiate a joint defence deal.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Do you want to be part of a country that doesn't honour its debts? What would that say about the UK, do you think?

No. If you read above, youll see ive stated that above many times.

[grunt]

Have you ever been to Brussels?

Lots and lots of property and estate. And of course across Europe, and the world.

Possibly the Europort at Rotterdam (dont know how that is owned)This is why the divorce analogy doesn't work.

[grunt]

No. If you read above, youll see ive stated that above many times.Oh, I'm sorry. When you said ...


... what leverage do the EU habe to force us to acccept these liabilities?I thought you meant that we wouldn't pay what was owed.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ive answered above.

Ok, so given the EU sre going to drive such a hard bargain, what leverage do the EU habe to force us to acccept these liabilities?

And what are your thoughts on scotlands commitments to rUK?

If hard came to hard there are various legal mechanisms that could be used to ensure the UK pays it's dues. Also the fact that the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK will be a deciding factor.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Again it depends on the deal. If we were to get part of the assets then yes. But can you seriously see the rest UK (Westminster) parting with those assets? Even if they did there'd be a strong movement in an independent Scotland to pay off our share then scrap the Nukes. Another alternative would be to negotiate a joint defence deal.

So in theory yes, but obviously it woyld be subject to negotiation? I think thats fair, and is where i think the UK is with regards the EU.

Its all to be negotiated, but i fully expect no deal to mean nothing goes to brussels from us. Its one of our main points of leverage, and one we should and will use as much as possible.

[grunt]

Also the fact that the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK will be a deciding factor.LOL. This wasn't the Leave argument! Just the opposite, in fact.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is why the divorce analogy doesn't work.

I dont think i ever made that analogy?

[Hibrandenburg]

Iv honestly got no idea , i think if we pay in your words a 'fair share' then theres no reason why they wouldnt make deals . i wouldnt call £100 billion a fair share though . That to me is a complete p155 take

I'll all be documented and will be brought to the table. There might be some haggling goes on but there will be a bill to be paid.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Oh, I'm sorry. When you said ...

I thought you meant that we wouldn't pay what was owed.

So you ignored all the other times i said we should.

Well you wetr wrong to think that.

My point above is that its negotiatiob. The EU's leverage is the deal we want. Our leverage is the money they want. You do know how negotiation works?

[grunt]

Its all to be negotiated, but i fully expect no deal to mean nothing goes to brussels from us. Its one of our main points of leverage, and one we should and will use as much as possible.Your use of the word leverage reminded me of this recent article.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/05/03/brexit-this-is-what-having-no-leverage-looks-like

[grunt]

So you ignored all the other times i said we should.

Well you wetr wrong to think that.

My point above is that its negotiatiob. The EU's leverage is the deal we want. Our leverage is the money they want. You do know how negotiation works?You say we should pay, and then you say we shouldn't. And then you ask if I know how negotiation works?? LOL.

[Hibrandenburg]

So you ignored all the other times i said we should.

Well you wetr wrong to think that.

My point above is that its negotiatiob. The EU's leverage is the deal we want. Our leverage is the money they want. You do know how negotiation works?

What cards do the UK have in their hand other than the "we're not paying" one?

[grunt]

I dont think i ever made that analogy?Of course you did. In implying that we should get a share of the property owned by the EC around the world. That's exactly what you were doing.

Look I don't mind discussing this stuff with you, but it's a bit annoying when you contradict yourself completely and then blame me.

[grunt]

What cards do the UK have in their hand other than the "we're not paying" one?Can I suggest you have a look at the article I linked to in post #1618.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If hard came to hard there are various legal mechanisms that could be used to ensure the UK pays it's dues. Also the fact that the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK will be a deciding factor.

There arent really. If its not written in treaty, its mot binding amd international law is more theoretical than actual.

Bit on trade deals and law, id agree and that is obviously the EUs main leverage. Thats where a deal will be struck imo - corporate interests and self interest will i think ensure that

[Hibrandenburg]

Can I suggest you have a look at the article I linked to in post #1618.

So if we bring a Downton Abbey box set, a vinyl version of the Rolling Stones "Start me up" and 2 season tickets to Old Trafford we should be quids in and get access to the single market? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Are we forgetting the 'divorce' payment will have to be agreed, or substantially agreed, before talks start on the trade deals tarrifs etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

There arent really. If its not written in treaty, its mot binding amd international law is more theoretical than actual.

Bit on trade deals and law, id agree and that is obviously the EUs main leverage. Thats where a deal will be struck imo - corporate interests and self interest will i think ensure that

But it is written in treaty? :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Are we forgetting the 'divorce' payment will have to be agreed, or substantially agreed, before talks start on the trade deals tarrifs etc.

You not a Dolly Parton fan then GF? Damn, you've edited :greengrin

[makaveli1875]

What cards do the UK have in their hand other than the "we're not paying" one?

Nobody really knows what cards the UK or the EU are holding right now or how they intend to play them . I guess all will be revealed in the coming months/years

[Hibrandenburg]

Nobody really knows what cards the UK or the EU are holding right now or how they intend to play them . I guess all will be revealed in the coming months/years

LOL, of course they do. Access to the world's biggest market to name just one.

[makaveli1875]

LOL, of course they do. Access to the world's biggest market to name just one.

so 27 european countries represents a bigger market than the rest of the world combined ? come on now

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What cards do the UK have in their hand other than the "we're not paying" one?

Thats a major one, obviously. The fact the EU demand ot is agree first suppprts this, that the EU are worried about it.

Access to the city money markets, fisheries, access to a large consumer market, foreign policy, military and diplomatic clout, security services cooperation, police cooperation, not wantimg to have a major economy on its doorstep that can undercut its rules and its members, academic and research collaboration, keeping good relations with its neighbour.

Look, i am not saying the UK has the upper hand, far from it. The EU holds most of the cards, absolutely. Which is why the UK needs to maximise those it does have.

And despite the fact that the UK is a declining power, it is still a power on the global stage - the UK and France carry the weight of the EUs foreign policy and military ambitions, amd for an organisatiob that had long been characterised in foreign policy as 'economic giant, political pygmy', that will matter. With EU members feeling threatened by an aggressive and expansionist neighbourto their east, this will diminish the EU.

Obviously all of those things also aplly to the UK, and the uk will lose out for sure, at least in the short term - we probably already are. Bit its not as one sided as junker at al wpuld habe people believe.

Also, i fully expect the back channels of international relations will be open, and we will ne circumventing the commission amd negotiators as much as possible, speaking to the member states and pressing the realpolitik of the situation.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But it is written in treaty? :confused:

Does Article 50 not clearly state that all EU treaties cease to aplly on date of leaving, or two years from notification?

Yup - article 50 section 3.

If it was as cut and dry as you suggest, there wpuldnt be any negotiation, it would be a fait accompli

[Hibrandenburg]

so 27 european countries represents a bigger market than the rest of the world combined ? come on now

It's the biggest tariff free market in the world, sat on our doorstep and we've just decided to leave it. Of course the rest of the world is bigger but they're not united and we'll have to strike up deals with all of them. That said there was nothing stopping us dealing with the rest of the world previously or haven't you ever bought goods with "made in china" on them?

[makaveli1875]

It's the biggest tariff free market in the world, sat on our doorstep and we've just decided to leave it. Of course the rest of the world is bigger but they're not united and we'll have to strike up deals with all of them. That said there was nothing stopping us dealing with the rest of the world previously or haven't you ever bought goods with "made in china" on them?

its hardly tariff free , it costs 10's of billions a year to be a member and hundreds of billions if you dare to leave

[Hibrandenburg]

Does Article 50 not clearly state that all EU treaties cease to aplly on date of leaving, or two years from notification?

Yup - article 50 section 3.

If it was as cut and dry as you suggest, there wpuldnt be any negotiation, it would be a fait accompli

Then we're back to the question of does the uk get a deal if it doesn't honour the previous ones.

[Hibrandenburg]

its hardly tariff free , it costs 10's of billions a year to be a member and hundreds of billions if you dare to leave

It's tariff free for businesses and citizens. I can buy or sell what I want in the EU without being walloped with import/export charges.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Then we're back to the question of does the uk get a deal if it doesn't honour the previous ones.

Exactly. I think the answer is no.

The converse obviously being that without a satisfactory deal, the EU doesnt get a bolt.

See, we have just done the negotiations in one morning...!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's the biggest tariff free market in the world, sat on our doorstep and we've just decided to leave it. Of course the rest of the world is bigger but they're not united and we'll have to strike up deals with all of them. That said there was nothing stopping us dealing with the rest of the world previously or haven't you ever bought goods with "made in china" on them?

I thought that the EU doesnt allow its members to strike unilateral trade deals with other states?

[ronaldo7]

https://t.co/P7ASUAqqG0

I might just keep this one handy for Indyref 2.

Boris telling all and sundry that the EU will have to pay the Uk a departure bill, due for the assets we've accrued.

Bank of England, here we come.:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought that the EU doesnt allow its members to strike unilateral trade deals with other states?

Whilst in theory that is the case, in practice the UK deals via the EU and has easy access to many markets because of this. Something else that will be lost after we exit.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://t.co/P7ASUAqqG0

I might just keep this one handy for Indyref 2.

Boris telling all and sundry that the EU will have to pay the Uk a departure bills due to the assets we've accrued.

Bank of England, here we come.:wink:

I don't believe a word that comes out of that guy's mouth. Now if he writes it on the side of a bus then that's a completely different matter.

[makaveli1875]

https://t.co/P7ASUAqqG0

I might just keep this one handy for Indyref 2.

Boris telling all and sundry that the EU will have to pay the Uk a departure bill, due for the assets we've accrued.

Bank of England, here we come.:wink:

are you going to use it in your party SNP political broadcast :wink:

[ronaldo7]

are you going to use it in your party SNP political broadcast :wink:

I'm sure Boris will come in handy sometime.

[Moulin Yarns]

I had an interesting chat with a man who has returned to Scotland after 18 years living in the hills above the Costa del Sol where he ran a chain of hotels, bars and restaurants. Post brexit referendum the spending power of ex-pats dropped by a third, his costs increased and his profits therefore dropped. he was expecting to lose the reciprocal health benefits and have to buy private health insurance abroad.

All of these things combined to convince him to sell up and return to the UK, one of the first things he asked me was about the EU workers in the hospitality industry, if they feel unwelcome and they also return home, where will bars and restaurants find the equivalent labour force in the UK? It doesn't exist, these are skilled jobs. He would expect bars and restaurants may have to close due to staff shortages.

I didn't ask what his politics were, so don't think he was coming at it from a particular party point of view, he was just totally pissed off at the whole Brexit thing.

[JeMeSouviens]

Remoaner speculation has it that this is the start of a Tory Brexiteer plot to deliberately crash the talks while blaming the EU:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-david-davis-britain-walk-out-talks-eu-demands-100bn-a7747086.html

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Remoaner speculation has it that this is the start of a Tory Brexiteer plot to deliberately crash the talks while blaming the EU:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-david-davis-britain-walk-out-talks-eu-demands-100bn-a7747086.html

Apparently there is a big stooshie among the 'united' EU27 about who pays the UKs share - supposedly France amd Germany have said no to plugging the budget gap, but no countries are willing to accept the cuts that must come from 10% (or whatever percentage) less money in the pot.

I would say its quite a strong opening gambit to threaten to walk away - our expectations are all so low now anyway. The UK has to try to sieze some initiative as the talks begin.

Im not clear what anyone would have to gain from deliberately crashing the negotiations though?

[JeMeSouviens]

Apparently there is a big stooshie among the 'united' EU27 about who pays the UKs share - supposedly France amd Germany have said no to plugging the budget gap, but no countries are willing to accept the cuts that must come from 10% (or whatever percentage) less money in the pot.

I would say its quite a strong opening gambit to threaten to walk away - our expectations are all so low now anyway. The UK has to try to sieze some initiative as the talks begin.

Im not clear what anyone would have to gain from deliberately crashing the negotiations though?

A low tax, low regulation, small state, no welfare country is the wet dream of the hard Brexit Tory right.

[grunt]

To all those who believe that immigration is the cause of the UK's problems, here's some night time reading.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea039.pdf

It's a briefing paper put together by the Centre for Economic Performance, part of the LSE.
For those who don't want to read the whole 14 pages, here's the conclusion.


It is very difficult to find much evidence that immigration has had a negative effect on many sectors of the UK economy. Any adverse experiences of UK-born workers with regard to jobs and wages are much more closely associated with the biggest economic crash for more than 80 years. But, it should be said, neither is there much evidence of large positive effects of immigration. So on the evidence on its economic costs (or benefits), it is hard to make a case that immigration should be a big feature of this election. But it almost certainly is.

It should be impossible to discuss immigration in the election without thinking about what will happen as Brexit looms. Yet none of the parties has outlined a clear view of how to deal with the consequences of ending free movement of labour from the EU.

Net immigration seems to have fallen over the past year, but for reasons that the government has very little control over: increased emigration and a fall in the number of Britons returning to the UK. This underlines how difficult it is to target a net immigration count.

At the national level, any falls in EU immigration are likely to lead to lower living standards for the UK-born. This is partly because immigrants help to reduce the deficit: they are more likely to work and pay tax; and they are less likely to use public services as they are younger and better educated than the UK-born. It is also partly due to the positive effects of EU immigrants on productivity.

There is a wide consensus that trade and foreign investment will also fall after Brexit, both of which would reduce UK incomes. Lower immigration is a third channel that will push UK living standards lower. How large any fall would be depends on by how much immigration will fall. This, of course, is unknown.

[Colr]

To all those who believe that immigration is the cause of the UK's problems, here's some night time reading.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea039.pdf

It's a briefing paper put together by the Centre for Economic Performance, part of the LSE.
For those who don't want to read the whole 14 pages, here's the conclusion.

Most immigration is non-EU, so why do we need toleave the EUtocontrol immigration? Theycould stop non-EU immigration tomorrow butson't. Ever get the feelingyou where being lied to?

[Mikey]

Not sure which thread to put this in as there are so many politics ones on the go :greengrin

Anyway, I see Nick Clegg has said that a vote for the Conservatives will mean an extra £1m a week having to be spent on the NHS because of staffing issues.

But that goes for every job that's largely done by them pesky foreigners. They're driven out and the jobs that Brits don't want to do will have to start paying more to entice them, and that means prices go up. The last bit wasn't explained to the people who were conned into voting Leave a year ago.

It doesn't matter which party is in power, unless Brexit is reversed it's going to happen across just about every industry.

Farage and Johnson have a lot to answer for.

[snooky]

Not sure which thread to put this in as there are so many politics ones on the go :greengrin

Anyway, I see Nick Clegg has said that a vote for the Conservatives will mean an extra £1m a week having to be spent on the NHS because of staffing issues.

But that goes for every job that's largely done by them pesky foreigners. They're driven out and the jobs that Brits don't want to do will have to start paying more to entice them, and that means prices go up. The last bit wasn't explained to the people who were conned into voting Leave a year ago.

It doesn't matter which party is in power, unless Brexit is reversed it's going to happen across just about every industry.

Farage and Johnson have a lot to answer for.

Can you still be hung for treason?
:hmmm: Just wonderin' like.

[Slavers]

Not sure which thread to put this in as there are so many politics ones on the go :greengrin

Anyway, I see Nick Clegg has said that a vote for the Conservatives will mean an extra £1m a week having to be spent on the NHS because of staffing issues.

But that goes for every job that's largely done by them pesky foreigners. They're driven out and the jobs that Brits don't want to do will have to start paying more to entice them, and that means prices go up. The last bit wasn't explained to the people who were conned into voting Leave a year ago.

It doesn't matter which party is in power, unless Brexit is reversed it's going to happen across just about every industry.

Farage and Johnson have a lot to answer for.

I don't think many will complain about being paid higher wages.

[Mikey]

I don't think many will complain about being paid higher wages.

They will when they go to spend it.

[Slavers]

They will when they go to spend it.

It depends on what they spend their money on. I can picture them now raging, damn It, I get paid more money and have more of it to spend. If they spend It wisely then surely being paid more for the work you do is a positive.

There is an argument that free movement of people benefits the mega rich due to them being able to keep wages low.

[High-On-Hibs]

It depends on what they spend their money on. I can picture them now raging, damn It, I get paid more money and have more of it to spend. If they spend It wisely then surely being paid more for the work you do is a positive.

There is an argument that free movement of people benefits the mega rich due to them being able to keep wages low.

I believe he's referring to inflation. Their wages will go up, but the cost of living will rise faster.

[Slavers]

I believe he's referring to inflation. Their wages will go up, but the cost of living will rise faster.

Inflation was on the cards anyway as soon as the central banks started with QE. So why suppress wages with cheap labour when inflation was a given to happen when they hit the printing press with our money.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure which thread to put this in as there are so many politics ones on the go :greengrin

Anyway, I see Nick Clegg has said that a vote for the Conservatives will mean an extra £1m a week having to be spent on the NHS because of staffing issues.

But that goes for every job that's largely done by them pesky foreigners. They're driven out and the jobs that Brits don't want to do will have to start paying more to entice them, and that means prices go up. The last bit wasn't explained to the people who were conned into voting Leave a year ago.

It doesn't matter which party is in power, unless Brexit is reversed it's going to happen across just about every industry.

Farage and Johnson have a lot to answer for.

£1 million a week is about 59p per NHS employee and £2.36 a month. If you're a nurse I wouldn't go buying that yacht just yet.

[RyeSloan]

£1 million a week is about 59p per NHS employee and £2.36 a month. If you're a nurse I wouldn't go buying that yacht just yet.

It's basically nothing.

The NHS will never have enough money...it's about time we started talking about what it should deliver and for how much rather than just total spend...like all things now though the actual issue is just buried in rhetoric and politics.

When the NHS was introduced it cost about £15bn in today's money...not sure of the total cost now but it's well north of £100bn.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking softer ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/philip-hammond-brexit-talks-brussels-uk-eu

Thank ****, if the Indyref lifeboat has been torpedoed.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Looking softer ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/philip-hammond-brexit-talks-brussels-uk-eu

Thank ****, if the Indyref lifeboat has been torpedoed.

Sounds like everyone is getting s bit more reasonable anf sensible.

I saw ladt week that london will be allowed to keep passporting rights too, albeit with EU oversight.

[Hibbyradge]

This appeared on my Facebook.

The article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:

THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
[Translation by Paula Kirby]
If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country?

Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point.

In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.

The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem.

Already prices are rising in the shops, already inflation is on the up. Investors are holding back. Economic growth has slowed. And that’s before the Brexit negotiations have even begun. With her unnecessary general election, Prime Minister Theresa May has already squandered an eighth of the time available for them. How on earth an undertaking as complex as Brexit is supposed to be agreed in the time remaining is a mystery.

Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line.

The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government.

EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt.

British society is now more divided than at any time since the English civil war in the 17th century, a fact that was demonstrated anew in the general election, in which a good 80% of the votes were cast for the two largest parties. Neither of these parties was offering a centrist programme: the election was a choice between the hard right and the hard left. The political centre has been abandoned, and that is never a good sign. In a country like Great Britain, that for so long had a reputation for pragmatism and rationality, it is grounds for real concern. The situation is getting decidedly out of hand.

After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover.

[Peevemor]

This appeared on my Facebook.

The article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:

THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
[Translation by Paula Kirby]

In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.


I saw this yesterday too. I don't agree with the bit in bold. Had Cameron not promised the referendum then UKIP would have taken a lot of the Tory vote and they probably wouldn't have been re-elected. This was the main reason IMO.

[PeeJay]

This appeared on my Facebook.

The article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:

THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE ....


Spot on article, although no doubt many Brits will view it differently - BTW - Chrisian Zaschke (article author) is the London correspondent for the Süddeutsche Zeitung (Munich) - so its originally a German article not Swiss! We don't want them Swiss claiming this too ... Grueüzi! :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Spot on article, although no doubt many Brits will view it differently - BTW - Chrisian Zaschke (article author) is the London correspondent for the Süddeutsche Zeitung (Munich) - so its originally a German article not Swiss! We don't want them Swiss claiming this too ... Grueüzi! :greengrin

I was about to say I'm not sure the Swiss have too much room to comment given they have got themselves into an unholy mess trying to accommodate a binding referendum vote for immigration quotas and a bilateral treaty of freedom of movement with the EU.

... and made the party that produced this the largest in the federal parliament:

http://www.adjete.com/photo/art/default/745183-911976.jpg?v=1289456956

Much as I love the place, Switzerland is not without issues of its own.

[Hibbyradge]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCm9aeoWsAAfwjD.jpg

[PeeJay]

I was about to say I'm not sure the Swiss have too much room to comment given they have got themselves into an unholy mess trying to accommodate a binding referendum vote for immigration quotas and a bilateral treaty of freedom of movement with the EU.

... and made the party that produced this the largest in the federal parliament:

http://www.adjete.com/photo/art/default/745183-911976.jpg?v=1289456956

Much as I love the place, Switzerland is not without issues of its own.

Yeah, I'm in Switzerland quite often - this poster was a real eye opener, among the many other "issues" the Swiss have ...

[Colr]

I was about to say I'm not sure the Swiss have too much room to comment given they have got themselves into an unholy mess trying to accommodate a binding referendum vote for immigration quotas and a bilateral treaty of freedom of movement with the EU.

... and made the party that produced this the largest in the federal parliament:

http://www.adjete.com/photo/art/default/745183-911976.jpg?v=1289456956

Much as I love the place, Switzerland is not without issues of its own.

That's appalling!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's appalling!!

Its pretty blatant eh!

[ronaldo7]

That's us off then, and it seems we've agreed to organise the talks in exactly the way the EU have been saying for months.

https://t.co/DGh1zZljKK

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's us off then, and it seems we've agreed to organise the talks in exactly the way the EU have been saying for months.

https://t.co/DGh1zZljKK

That is quite funny. I bet we made them negotiate really hard to get exactly what they wanted though...

[ronaldo7]

That is quite funny. I bet we made them negotiate really hard to get exactly what they wanted though...

I like this one better.:greengrin

https://t.co/0QYHkXF07b

[easty]

https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/877092313553666048

[Colr]

I saw this yesterday too. I don't agree with the bit in bold. Had Cameron not promised the referendum then UKIP would have taken a lot of the Tory vote and they probably wouldn't have been re-elected. This was the main reason IMO.

Even though UKIPs growth strategy was to build their working class vote which would have eroded Labour's presence?

[RyeSloan]

Even though UKIPs growth strategy was to build their working class vote which would have eroded Labour's presence?

Indeed...the GE saw the UKIP vote, in general, go 50/50 to the Tories and Labour so the perceived wisdom that all UKIPers were right wing Tory ultras would seem to have been somewhat misplaced.

[ronaldo7]

Power bonanza, or No powers at all. The secretary of state for Scotland seems a bit muddled.

Section 11 of the bill effectively means the Scottish parliament can't legislate on repatriated EU laws in devolved areas without the UK GOV permission.

https://t.co/W5p2yHR9t6

[easty]

I like this -

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattzarb/status/886882615181135873

[High-On-Hibs]

Looks like the UK government are preparing to undermine the entirety of the Scottish Parliament to force through their hard brexit plans that the vast majority of people never really voted for. Got to love that UK democracy that we feel the need to cling on to.

[Slavers]

Looks like the UK government are preparing to undermine the entirety of the Scottish Parliament to force through their hard brexit plans that the vast majority of people never really voted for. Got to love that UK democracy that we feel the need to cling on to.

Yep what we really need is a left wing socialist dictatorship to set us all free.

[steakbake]

It's terrible living in this dictatorship.

I do hope the rest of the world looking on will start sanctions to try and free our imprisoned and trapped people.

Maybe Geldoff will do a concert or something...

[High-On-Hibs]

Yep what we really need is a left wing socialist dictatorship to set us all free.

I suppose you prefer the ring wing capitalist neoliberal dictatorship. Like a left wing dictatorship but with less equality. :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

I suppose you prefer the ring wing capitalist neoliberal dictatorship. Like a left wing dictatorship but with less equality. :rolleyes:


I'm against any form of dictatorship be it the EU kind or any other.

[High-On-Hibs]

I'm against any form of dictatorship be it the EU kind or any other.

So you're against the British tory dictatorship also then? Or is it only a dictatorship when it suits your own political angle?

[Glory Lurker]

It's not going to happen.

[ronaldo7]

I've always found David Martin MEP to be a straight hitter.

Good article here on Brexit, the Scottish Government, and our future.

https://t.co/2kiT0JLdVa

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/scottish-government-warned-to-prepare-for-brexit-shocks-jb35qx3j9

No matter your political persuasion this should concern you.

[Mr Grieves]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15596498.No_deal_Brexit____to_trigger_a_new_vote_o n_Union___/

"Earlier this year, James Chapman, a former aide to David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, claimed the department had undertaken such analysis, which showed Scotland and the north-east of England would be worst hit by leaving the EU.

In response to a subsequent Freedom of Information request, the department yesterday said it would neither confirm nor deny it had undertaken such analysis because to do so could undermine the Brussels talks and provoke a “reactionary” response from stakeholders north of the Border, which could damage Britain’s economy."

So there's apparently government reports showing that Scotland will be worst hit by Brexit. Is it too much to hope that Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories would maybe use their new found influence to do something about this? Or is it party and the UK first at the expense of Scottish jobs? :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15596498.No_deal_Brexit____to_trigger_a_new_vote_o n_Union___/

"Earlier this year, James Chapman, a former aide to David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, claimed the department had undertaken such analysis, which showed Scotland and the north-east of England would be worst hit by leaving the EU.

In response to a subsequent Freedom of Information request, the department yesterday said it would neither confirm nor deny it had undertaken such analysis because to do so could undermine the Brussels talks and provoke a “reactionary” response from stakeholders north of the Border, which could damage Britain’s economy."

So there's apparently government reports showing that Scotland will be worst hit by Brexit. Is it too much to hope that Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories would maybe use their new found influence to do something about this? Or is it party and the UK first at the expense of Scottish jobs? :rolleyes:

Hmmm, let me think ... :hmmm:

I would think the Tories will be delighted with anything that hammers Scotland (which would be Sturgeon's fault anyway). An emaciated economy is more likely to cling on to the union. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

I saw something yesterday about whether Brexit could be stopped and it got me wondering, so I'm putting this out there for comments, is it feasible?

I don't know if many minds have changed within the hallowed halls of Westminster since the Brexit Referendum and the subsequent poorly called election, but, is it possible/feasible for an MP to bring a private members bill calling for a vote to halt negotiations due to lack of time, agreement, clarity, hobnob biscuits, anything at all, and all parties agree to a free vote.

So, is it possible? and how would it be seen in the EU?

I'm guessing it might be possible although I gather getting a Private member bill debated is fraught with difficulties. As for the EU, it would show the UK as weak, unstable and could end in a few years with the EU hammering us when the current agreements come up for renogation.

Anyways, any experts out there?

[lord bunberry]

I saw something yesterday about whether Brexit could be stopped and it got me wondering, so I'm putting this out there for comments, is it feasible?

I don't know if many minds have changed within the hallowed halls of Westminster since the Brexit Referendum and the subsequent poorly called election, but, is it possible/feasible for an MP to bring a private members bill calling for a vote to halt negotiations due to lack of time, agreement, clarity, hobnob biscuits, anything at all, and all parties agree to a free vote.

So, is it possible? and how would it be seen in the EU?

I'm guessing it might be possible although I gather getting a Private member bill debated is fraught with difficulties. As for the EU, it would show the UK as weak, unstable and could end in a few years with the EU hammering us when the current agreements come up for renogation.

Anyways, any experts out there?
I can’t see it happening. Most politicians seem to have agreed that the referendum result is binding and it would be undemocratic to try and reverse it. Another vote would be the only way to reverse it now.

[Hibrandenburg]

I can’t see it happening. Most politicians seem to have agreed that the referendum result is binding and it would be undemocratic to try and reverse it. Another vote would be the only way to reverse it now.

I think the Tories are trying their hardest to ensure that the outcome of any negotiations are so bad that when it comes to ratifying the deal in parliament it will get rejected and that a second referendum will be the only way to solve the resulting stalemate.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I saw something yesterday about whether Brexit could be stopped and it got me wondering, so I'm putting this out there for comments, is it feasible?

I don't know if many minds have changed within the hallowed halls of Westminster since the Brexit Referendum and the subsequent poorly called election, but, is it possible/feasible for an MP to bring a private members bill calling for a vote to halt negotiations due to lack of time, agreement, clarity, hobnob biscuits, anything at all, and all parties agree to a free vote.

So, is it possible? and how would it be seen in the EU?

I'm guessing it might be possible although I gather getting a Private member bill debated is fraught with difficulties. As for the EU, it would show the UK as weak, unstable and could end in a few years with the EU hammering us when the current agreements come up for renogation.

Anyways, any experts out there?

Its an interesting question... i think there are a few possible scenarios, although i wouldnt say any were likely, as such.

Give the political volatility we now have, i certainly would not bet against it.

Even leaving aside the obvious parliamentary block or the government falling, there is also likrly to be a few years of transition in which a new government might take a difderent stance

Id say the EU would be delighted to have the UK stay. It woyld vindicate their approach to the negotiations, and it would solidify the EU more than ever - if one of the biggest, military and economic powers cant leave, nobody can. Whether that would be a good thing for tge EU or not is a different question.

I really dont think it is out of the question - we have not hit the peak panic period yet imo, and if business and corporate interests make enough of a stink, both here and in Europe, it could still be stopped, watered-down or put to another vote, whixh would be fascinating.

[lord bunberry]

I think the Tories are trying their hardest to ensure that the outcome of any negotiations are so bad that when it comes to ratifying the deal in parliament it will get rejected and that a second referendum will be the only way to solve the resulting stalemate.
I wouldn’t bet against that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Its an interesting question... i think there are a few possible scenarios, although i wouldnt say any were likely, as such.

Give the political volatility we now have, i certainly would not bet against it.

Even leaving aside the obvious parliamentary block or the government falling, there is also likrly to be a few years of transition in which a new government might take a difderent stance

Id say the EU would be delighted to have the UK stay. It woyld vindicate their approach to the negotiations, and it would solidify the EU more than ever - if one of the biggest, military and economic powers cant leave, nobody can. Whether that would be a good thing for tge EU or not is a different question.

I really dont think it is out of the question - we have not hit the peak panic period yet imo, and if business and corporate interests make enough of a stink, both here and in Europe, it could still be stopped, watered-down or put to another vote, whixh would be fascinating.

I'm not sure what needs to happen for the peak panic threshold to be reached. The pound is worth less than it was pre Brexit meaning your money is worth less than it was, inflation is at its highest in years meaning what you buy with that devalued money costs more and real wages are decreasing meaning you have less of that devalued money to buy those more expensive goods with. If people still can't see the writing on the wall then there's only more disaster ahead.

[Colr]

I can’t see it happening. Most politicians seem to have agreed that the referendum result is binding and it would be undemocratic to try and reverse it. Another vote would be the only way to reverse it now.

Libs might, Chukka could or maybe the Nottinghamshire Tories.

[Colr]

I'm not sure what needs to happen for the peak panic threshold to be reached. The pound is worth less than it was pre Brexit meaning your money is worth less than it was, inflation is at its highest in years meaning what you buy with that devalued money costs more and real wages are decreasing meaning you have less of that devalued money to buy those more expensive goods with. If people still can't see the writing on the wall then there's only more disaster ahead.

Just walking around the shops and restuarants, the High Street looks to me in recession mode. Everyone is cutting back that I know.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not sure what needs to happen for the peak panic threshold to be reached. The pound is worth less than it was pre Brexit meaning your money is worth less than it was, inflation is at its highest in years meaning what you buy with that devalued money costs more and real wages are decreasing meaning you have less of that devalued money to buy those more expensive goods with. If people still can't see the writing on the wall then there's only more disaster ahead.

Perhaps your perception is a bit skewed being so far away, but certainly with regards my work, companies will panic a bit more fhe closer any 'deadline' (whatever that deadline leads to) gets and no agreement or arrangements have been made. We are nowhere near that point yet.

Nobody is panicking yet imo.

Dont get me wrong, companies are concerned, but in some cases they are still working out ramifications and trying to put in contingency. The panic will rise the closer the 'change' gets.

Im no economist, but i dont think my money has been devalued, unless im trying to buy euros or dollars. Being worth less on FX markets doesnt mean the pound in my poxket is worth less i dont think? And i think inflation and wage squeeze may or may not be related to brexit, someone who knows more about economics can answer that.

[Colr]

Perhaps your perception is a bit skewed being so far away, but certainly with regards my work, companies will panic a bit more fhe closer any 'deadline' (whatever that deadline leads to) gets and no agreement or arrangements have been made. We are nowhere near that point yet.

Nobody is panicking yet imo.

Dont get me wrong, companies are concerned, but in some cases they are still working out ramifications and trying to put in contingency. The panic will rise the closer the 'change' gets.

Im no economist, but i dont think my money has been devalued, unless im trying to buy euros or dollars. Being worth less on FX markets doesnt mean the pound in my poxket is worth less i dont think? And i think inflation and wage squeeze may or may not be related to brexit, someone who knows more about economics can answer that.

Anything we import is more expensive so it does affect the pounds in your pocket.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Anything we import is more expensive so it does affect the pounds in your pocket.

Yeah via inflation, but not directly devaluing the pound in my pocket. Not everything is imported afterall.

But im no economist, i just think we arr still in the calm before the storm, and certainly nobody is panicking, despite what some would like to think.

[grunt]

Just walking around the shops and restuarants, the High Street looks to me in recession mode. Everyone is cutting back that I know.
Indeed. And businesses are not investing. Not many businesses will open new factories, launch new products while there is so much uncertainty. All the business activity that I see is companies arranging to set up in Europe. There's a huge amount of activity in London around moves to relocate financial services overseas.

The UK seems to be shooting itself in the foot, strangling itself and jumping off a cliff all at the same time. Monumentally stupid.

[Colr]

Indeed. And businesses are not investing. Not many businesses will open new factories, launch new products while there is so much uncertainty. All the business activity that I see is companies arranging to set up in Europe. There's a huge amount of activity in London around moves to relocate financial services overseas.

The UK seems to be shooting itself in the foot, strangling itself and jumping off a cliff all at the same time. Monumentally stupid.

Seems other people are seeing the downturn as well

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/19/pound-stuck-132-against-dollar-ahead-high-street-figures-unilever/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/19/uk-retail-sales-slump-september-inflation-wages

[grunt]

Seems other people are seeing the downturn as well

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/19/pound-stuck-132-against-dollar-ahead-high-street-figures-unilever/Indeed. And here's the CEO of Goldman Sachs on his recent trip to Frankfurt

https://twitter.com/lloydblankfein/status/920995573368545280

[IGRIGI]

I was quite open to Brexit, I didnt vote however I could see many advantages to being outside of the EU and I really disliked the way Brussels acts on many topics and where the EU seems to be going.

However, I'm now quite concerned given the fact May is getting played like a banjo and is literally begging for any deal she can try to spin at home.

It's almost unbelievable how she's mucked this up given the position the Tories where in previously.

[RyeSloan]

I was quite open to Brexit, I didnt vote however I could see many advantages to being outside of the EU and I really disliked the way Brussels acts on many topics and where the EU seems to be going.

However, I'm now quite concerned given the fact May is getting played like a banjo and is literally begging for any deal she can try to spin at home.

It's almost unbelievable how she's mucked this up given the position the Tories where in previously.

I'm still completely relaxed about Brexit.

The EU never does anything quickly and always relies on brinksmanship when cutting its deals, both internally and externally, so the 'talks' were always going to drag on in a half stalemate for a long time.

Deal, no deal, half a deal the sky is not going to fall down either way.

[JeMeSouviens]

Former top civil servant in Dept for International Trade (Liam Fox's dept) writes in the Observer:


There is no credible free trade deal outcome able to deliver the guaranteed market access, shared regulation and consumer protection that Britain needs. Wishful thinking does not create well-paid jobs, pay taxes or fund public services.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/19/wishful-brexit-thinking-will-not-create-jobs-or-fund-public-services

What would he know though, eh? :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

New location for the EMA, is Amsterdam, and 900 jobs.

https://t.co/3gyhAhlGpu

Paris wins the right to host European Banking authority.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

New location for the EMA, is Amsterdam, and 900 jobs.

https://t.co/3gyhAhlGpu

Interesting... Amsterdam is very commutable from SE England, amd two thirds of EMA staff said they would not move abroad with their job. Seems a sensible compromise, and one that will keep job losses to a minimum.

The real loss of the EMA are the tens of thousands of hotel nights that come with it, but im sure London can cope with loaing them.

Not a bad outcome for the UK i think (obviously losing itnis bad, buy the losses will be mitigated by this move).

[ronaldo7]

Interesting... Amsterdam is very commutable from SE England, amd two thirds of EMA staff said they would not move abroad with their job. Seems a sensible compromise, and one that will keep job losses to a minimum.

The real loss of the EMA are the tens of thousands of hotel nights that come with it, but im sure London can cope with loaing them.

Not a bad outcome for the UK i think (obviously losing itnis bad, buy the losses will be mitigated by this move).

I'm sure some will want to commute, but their taxes won't be collected here.

900 jobs, 322 Million Euro budget, and 40,000 business visits per year. Someone, somewhere will paint this as a UK win.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm sure some will want to commute, but their taxes won't be collected here.

Im not sure they pay much tax. Special rate of 11% i believe for employees of European institutions.

Anyway surely you pay tax in your country of residence, not employment?

I see the banking authority has moved to Paris too. Also very commutable from London. Apparently staff and companies arent keen on moving to Frankfurt generally (not seen as a global city) bit obviously Paris doesnt habe that problem!

[ronaldo7]

Im not sure they pay much tax. Special rate of 11% i believe for employees of European institutions.

Anyway surely you pay tax in your country of residence, not employment?

I see the banking authority has moved to Paris too. Also very commutable from London. Apparently staff and companies arent keen on moving to Frankfurt generally (not seen as a global city) bit obviously Paris doesnt habe that problem!

I'm not sure if that'll be the case after we leave the EU.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/index_en.htm

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not sure if that'll be the case after we leave the EU.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/index_en.htm

Sounds like you're not really sure about anything?

Are SNP Central being a bit slow in sending out their infobites to the activists? Or can you just not be arsed looking up something for yourself?

[Hibrandenburg]

Im not sure they pay much tax. Special rate of 11% i believe for employees of European institutions.

Anyway surely you pay tax in your country of residence, not employment?

I see the banking authority has moved to Paris too. Also very commutable from London. Apparently staff and companies arent keen on moving to Frankfurt generally (not seen as a global city) bit obviously Paris doesnt habe that problem!

At present the UK has double taxation agreements with EU countries meaning you can't be taxed twice. You either pay tax and social security on the country of residence or the country you're employed in. If that's the case after Brexit we'll have to wait and see what gets negotiated. A recent German ruling designed to stop Ryanair ripping off local social security and health care agencies also states that these costs must be paid in the country where the employee starts and finishes his work. It's all crystal ball stuff until the negotiations are completed.

[Mibbes Aye]

At present the UK has double taxation agreements with EU countries meaning you can't be taxed twice. You either pay tax and social security on the country of residence or the country you're employed in. If that's the case after Brexit we'll have to wait and see what gets negotiated. A recent German ruling designed to stop Ryanair ripping off local social security and health care agencies also states that these costs must be paid in the country where the employee starts and finishes his work. It's all crystal ball stuff until the negotiations are completed.

It's this level of detail that makes me think Brexit can't work, it will take forever to work out.

Business doesn't want it, unions don't want it, finance doesn't want it, half the population and their elected representatives don't want it. Our European partners don't seem to want it.

It's been shown that the NHS won't be £350m better off a week.

The argument for leaving was a false prospectus, based on lies. The public should be allowed to vote again, based on facts.

[ronaldo7]

Sounds like you're not really sure about anything?

Are SNP Central being a bit slow in sending out their infobites to the activists? Or can you just not be arsed looking up something for yourself?

Pathetic post from you as usual.

[Mibbes Aye]

Pathetic post from you as usual.

As usual?

I've asked you many times to argue your case, in your own words, rather than posting links or resorting to snidy comments.

The floor is yours to make your case as to why nationalism is a relevant argument in the 21st century. Go for it, or explain why you won't?

Serious question, when you converted (you posted on here that you did), did you get signed up and then get emailed a list of headlines you should post? Genuinely, is that what they ask of you?

[ronaldo7]

As usual?

I've asked you many times to argue your case, in your own words, rather than posting links or resorting to snidy comments.

The floor is yours to make your case as to why nationalism is a relevant argument in the 21st century. Go for it, or explain why you won't?

Serious question, when you converted (you posted on here that you did), did you get signed up and then get emailed a list of headlines you should post? Genuinely, is that what they ask of you?

Pathetic.

The thread is about Brexit, and I posted a response to another poster regarding the possibilities, or not of the tax implications, post brexit. You decided to attack me personally as is your want.

Get over yourself, and stay on the subject matter please.

[hibsbollah]

As usual?

I've asked you many times to argue your case, in your own words, rather than posting links or resorting to snidy comments.

The floor is yours to make your case as to why nationalism is a relevant argument in the 21st century. Go for it, or explain why you won't?

Serious question, when you converted (you posted on here that you did), did you get signed up and then get emailed a list of headlines you should post? Genuinely, is that what they ask of you?

I dont think Ronaldo has a monopoly on snidey comments, your own post was dripping with sarcasm and fairly rude. Hes allowed to post links to exemplify his position on things, unless the rules of the board have changed recently?

[steakbake]

It's this level of detail that makes me think Brexit can't work, it will take forever to work out.

Business doesn't want it, unions don't want it, finance doesn't want it, half the population and their elected representatives don't want it. Our European partners don't seem to want it.

It's been shown that the NHS won't be £350m better off a week.

The argument for leaving was a false prospectus, based on lies. The public should be allowed to vote again, based on facts.

I agree but I simply can't see that happening. Labour are as sold on a hard Brexit as the Tories. The LibDems are irrelevant. The question then becomes what next?

I'm guessing just over half of the population here will meekly get on with their porridge as brands like Scotch and whisky are hawked to any old country that will give us a trade deal. Still, at least Nippy is put in her place.

It's ****ing woeful.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I remembered hearing an FT journo at the outsrt of Brexit saying that despite all of the tooing and froing, we would end up paying around 40bn amd we would get a deal only slightly worse than we have now. That prediction is looking increasingly prescient.

[WeeRussell]

Sounds like you're not really sure about anything?

Are SNP Central being a bit slow in sending out their infobites to the activists? Or can you just not be arsed looking up something for yourself?

Wow.

Surprised you didn't get at least a polite warning for that. Utterly needless response to a post which simply referred to a link as evidence of a comment about tax. You then call the guy out demanding he explains why nationalism is relevant in this century, when it wasn't even relevant in what he posted :confused:

Does he need to open every reply he makes with an essay explaining his political views before he's allowed to supply comment or a link?

Dear dear.. pathetic indeed.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Wow.

Surprised you didn't get at least a polite warning for that. Utterly needless response to a post which simply referred to a link as evidence of a comment about tax. You then call the guy out demanding he explains why nationalism is relevant in this century, when it wasn't even relevant in what he posted :confused:

Does he need to open every reply he makes with an essay explaining his political views before he's allowed to supply comment or a link?

Dear dear.. pathetic indeed.


said poster has a serious problem with other posters posting links :agree: i for one like links to articles, i can then make my own mind up if i like what's in the link or not, if i see a link online that i fully agree with then i'l post it instead of wasting time on typing ink, if others don't like that then use the ignore function

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So apparently a deal has been done on irish border - which is slightly impenetrable given the (very deliberately) vague language... but leaving aside the irish issue, huge ramifications for Scotland.

Im not a huge fan of Sturgeon's, nor am i a tub-thumping nat, but i dont see how the UK govt can defend a separate Brexit deal for NI and then deny it to us or Wales?

I suspect that the UK goct are hoping the problem is smoothed by any post-brexit trade deal, but still it is playing with fire.

Personally, i think the only logical (although obviouspy not problem-free solution) was to tell Ireland tough, offer NI a referendum on reunification and ask them to make their choice, in or out. But obviously that would bring down the government here. What am unhappy comin together of political circumstances!

Getting rid of NI and letting it become an Irish problem would be a bonus from brexit imo...

[JeMeSouviens]

NS obv reads your posts SH_B ;-)


Nicola Sturgeon‏Verified account
@NicolaSturgeon
52m52 minutes ago

If one part of UK can retain regulatory alignment with EU and effectively stay in the single market (which is the right solution for Northern Ireland) there is surely no good practical reason why others can’t.

[JeMeSouviens]

...

Nicola Sturgeon‏Verified account
@NicolaSturgeon

Right now, Ireland is powerfully demonstrating the importance of being independent when it comes to defending your vital national interests

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

NS obv reads your posts SH_B ;-)

Of course she does....!

This does highlight the slight problem in that when you have been moaning amd finding fault with everything, it kinda dilutes your message a bit when it really matters.

But what a state.

We now face the prospect of indy2 back on the table, in amongst this - and us possibly having to choose to go for Brexit, or an even more difficult separation with the UK.

Oh how i miss the dull days of the 90s and early 00s, with their sensible third-way consensus.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

...

Im not sure i get this though.

Demonstrating its power by demanding a larger, economically important neighbour doesnt cut it off?

And they are only able to because the EU has given them permission as it suits their agenda too.

Hardly aspirational for an indy Scotland to habe to run its foreign policy past the EU Commission.

I dont blame ireland by the way, but finding the ball land at your feet fortuitously in a game between two giants to which you are, to one degree or another, beholden, is hardly a robust and independent foreign policy.

[JeMeSouviens]

Im not sure i get this though.

Demonstrating its power by demanding a larger, economically important neighbour doesnt cut it off?

And they are only able to because the EU has given them permission as it suits their agenda too.

Hardly aspirational for an indy Scotland to habe to run its foreign policy past the EU Commission.

I dont blame ireland by the way, but finding the ball land at your feet fortuitously in a game between two giants to which you are, to one degree or another, beholden, is hardly a robust and independent foreign policy.

It's from the perspective of Scotland now vs Ireland now. Ireland has an important voice as an EU member state. Scotland has to suck up whatever England wants.

(I fully acknowledge that's what we voted for, btw, but I don't have to like it.)

[CropleyWasGod]

Sadiq Khan weighing in with a similar opinion:-

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/sadiq-khan-london-could-get-similar-deal-to-northern-ireland-to-protect-tens-of-thousands-of-jobs-a3709886.html


And what say the DUP?

[JeMeSouviens]

sadiq khan weighing in with a similar opinion:-

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/sadiq-khan-london-could-get-similar-deal-to-northern-ireland-to-protect-tens-of-thousands-of-jobs-a3709886.html


and what say the dup?

"never!"

[CropleyWasGod]

"never!"

Maybe I'm not as smart as HMG..... but surely they think these things through. They can't have taken a decision on NI without thinking of the obvious reaction from Scotland, London and the DUP.

:confused:

[lord bunberry]

England should leave the uk.

[lord bunberry]

Maybe I'm not as smart as HMG..... but surely they think these things through. They can't have taken a decision on NI without thinking of the obvious reaction from Scotland, London and the DUP.

:confused:
You give them far too much credit. With the Irish border problems solved, the government maintains its majority.

[IGRIGI]

May is getting played like a banjo, I hope she holds out so negotiations on Scottish independence go through her, Salmond and the crew would have a field day.

[grunt]

Maybe I'm not as smart as HMG..... but surely they think these things through. They can't have taken a decision on NI without thinking of the obvious reaction from Scotland, London and the DUP.

:confused:They think they can get away with it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's from the perspective of Scotland now vs Ireland now. Ireland has an important voice as an EU member state. Scotland has to suck up whatever England wants.

(I fully acknowledge that's what we voted for, btw, but I don't have to like it.)

Ok, i take your point.

Althougj one could just as easily say that scottidh govt with strong relationships in london (and no few MPs) could also be having plenty of influence- the trouble with setting yourself against something from the outset is it leaves you with no leverage and nowhere else to go. But we digress!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

May is getting played like a banjo, I hope she holds out so negotiations on Scottish independence go through her, Salmond and the crew would have a field day.

Why would salmond be involved?!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You give them far too much credit. With the Irish border problems solved, the government maintains its majority.

I think they are gambling that the final deal will solve the issue (or as near as dammit) - i agree its a huge gamble though!

[IGRIGI]

Why would salmond be involved?!

Just to get it wrapped right roond ye's :greengrin:

[xyz23jc]

Just to get it wrapped right roond ye's :greengrin:

:greengrin:thumbsup::agree::top marks

[BroxburnHibee]

What a shambles this is.

DUP playing Theresa for a mug again.

Wonder how much more from the magic money tree they're looking for.

[weecounty hibby]

Shambles, total ****ing shambles. No plan, no ideas, no strategy, no clue how to negotiate and who with, they are dragging the UK into something they have no idea how it will work and the biggest losers will be Scotland. Farage, Johnson et all should be shot for dragging us into this with their little Englander, the Empire is still great attitudes and totally **** all to back it up.

[ronaldo7]

One of the good things to come from today's debacle, was, that it shows that a differentiated settlement for different parts of the UK, can be made to work. The Uk gov have just given the green light to parts of the UK working differently to others. Only political grievance will not allow it to happen.

If only the Scottish government had thought of this eh.

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/12/9234

[Colr]

What a shambles this is.

DUP playing Theresa for a mug again.

Wonder how much more from the magic money tree they're looking for.

Got on the trainhome thinking it was closer to getting sorted, by the time I get off the other end it was back to chaos again.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:greengrin:thumbsup::agree::top marks

Good contribution 🖒

[Hibrandenburg]

Shambles, total ****ing shambles. No plan, no ideas, no strategy, no clue how to negotiate and who with, they are dragging the UK into something they have no idea how it will work and the biggest losers will be Scotland. Farage, Johnson et all should be shot for dragging us into this with their little Englander, the Empire is still great attitudes and totally **** all to back it up.

Everyday confirms all the worst fears and predictions of the experts that were made before the vote but still the good ship Brexit steams on relentlessly whilst taking on more and more water and the band plays on.

[weecounty hibby]

Everyday confirms all the worst fears and predictions of the experts that were made before the vote but still the good ship Brexit steams on relentlessly whilst taking on more and more water and the band plays on.
The worrying thing is that there are still ordinary folk out there, mostly in England, that still think that everything will be ok and that there will be pots of gold for all at the end of the fantasy trade deals that they hope for. There is absolutely nothing that I hav seen since the referendum that suggests that the economy will improve, services will be better,or anything else that was promised by the leavers. The DUP a bunch of bigots that you wouldnt trust to run a raffle have suddenly become the most powerful people in the UK. You couldn't make that up. NI voted to stay but the ****ers hold all the aces and are demanding a hard Brexit but have managed to get £1 billion investment to prop up a failed government. ****ed up doesn't even begin to describe the situation

[Glory Lurker]

Just to get it wrapped right roond ye's :greengrin:


I’ve had a rubbish day, but lol’d at that! Thanks! :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

The worrying thing is that there are still ordinary folk out there, mostly in England, that still think that everything will be ok and that there will be pots of gold for all at the end of the fantasy trade deals that they hope for. There is absolutely nothing that I hav seen since the referendum that suggests that the economy will improve, services will be better,or anything else that was promised by the leavers. The DUP a bunch of bigots that you wouldnt trust to run a raffle have suddenly become the most powerful people in the UK. You couldn't make that up. NI voted to stay but the ****ers hold all the aces and are demanding a hard Brexit but have managed to get £1 billion investment to prop up a failed government. ****ed up doesn't even begin to describe the situation

IMHO, they are not demanding a hard Brexit. They are demanding exactly the same Brexit as the rest of the UK. All they care about is being Brutish, not Irish.

That in turn could lead us to the lesser of all evils, a Norway style soft Brexit for the whole of the UK, while remaining in the Single Market.

Short of staying in it’s the next best outcome for the UK.

Bizarre that we may get Soft Brexit because of some nutty NI Loons.

J

[-Jonesy-]

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/88/88c603f1488aa25ad4b1d810e00d6512f23b50593deb8ed2cd 953f5815494013.jpg

[Bristolhibby]

It is no longer whether Northern Ireland will leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. It is whether the rest of the UK will now leave the EU on the same terms as Northern Ireland. Given what seems to have been conceded, there is only one way for Northern Ireland not to have a special status – and that is for all the UK to remain in the customs union.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It is no longer whether Northern Ireland will leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. It is whether the rest of the UK will now leave the EU on the same terms as Northern Ireland. Given what seems to have been conceded, there is only one way for Northern Ireland not to have a special status – and that is for all the UK to remain in the customs union.

Good point. And if not, then surely scotland, wales and london shpuld get the same deal?!

I honestly dont see how this circle can be squared without telling the irish tough, its a hard border.

Which bizarrely, is the the outcome that precisely nobody wants. Very strange...!