Brexit - what will happen next

[danhibees1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43484031

Cringe

Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous way to behave.

[Jackh]

Brexit means Brexit

[lord bunberry]

Brexit means Brexit
What does brexit mean though?

[Jackh]

What does brexit mean though?

Brexit.

[lord bunberry]

Brexit.
I thought you might say that. There will be lots of trading done before we leave the EU, so at this stage brexit is just a word. No one knows what it will mean for them and their chosen profession.

[danhibees1875]

I thought you might say that. There will be lots of trading done before we leave the EU, so at this stage brexit is just a word. No one knows what it will mean for them and their chosen profession.

A made-up word at that. A made-up word that means a made-up word. Isn't it obvious??

Throw some more food in to the rivers, that will get things to a satisfactory conclusion.

[Geo_1875]

Brexit means Blue Passports (Made in France).

[Saturday Boy]

Brexit means Blue Passports (Made in France).

I wonder if we’ll have to pay import duty on them 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Brexit means Blue Passports (Made in France).

Aye but they are saving £100m and creating 70 jobs.

Now the cynic in me says that not changing them would save £450m.

[marinello59]

I thought you might say that. There will be lots of trading done before we leave the EU, so at this stage brexit is just a word. No one knows what it will mean for them and their chosen profession.

Exactly. I wish it wasn’t happening but as with every change there will be winners and losers.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought you might say that. There will be lots of trading done before we leave the EU, so at this stage brexit is just a word. No one knows what it will mean for them and their chosen profession.

Pretty stupid thing to hold a referendum on then if nobody knows what it means.

[lord bunberry]

Pretty stupid thing to hold a referendum on then if nobody knows what it means.
It was absolute madness to hold a referendum.

[lapsedhibee]

It was absolute madness to hold a referendum.

Any evidence yet that Cambridge Analytica/Facebook were hired by Putin to bolster the leave campaign as part of a divide-and-rule strategy to take over the world?

[Lendo]

Any evidence yet that Cambridge Analytica/Facebook were hired by Putin to bolster the leave campaign as part of a divide-and-rule strategy to take over the world?

Leave.EU have just recently removed the page on their website where they proudly talked of their links with Cambridge Analytica.

[ronaldo7]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories didn't sell out the Fisher folk on the way out of the EU, as they did on the way in.

https://t.co/isgN2oi5rU

[lord bunberry]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories didn't sell out the Fisher folk on the way out of the EU, as they did on the way in.

https://t.co/isgN2oi5rU
I’ve very little sympathy for the fishermen. They were only thinking of themselves when they were voting to leave, and they did the same when they voted for the Tories in the last election. They couldn’t give a toss about the rest of us. I hope they’re successful in their fight, but they’ll have to get in line with the rest of us in the brexit scramble.

[Bristolhibby]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories didn't sell out the Fisher folk on the way out of the EU, as they did on the way in.

https://t.co/isgN2oi5rU

Haha, love that the Scottish Tories are suddenly making out they have found their big boy bollox.

Aye right, voting it down? You’ll do what your lords and masters tell ye, like good little children.

As an aside. EU access to U.K. waters for City of London passporting. Best believe that will be part of the deal.

J

[IGRIGI]

Haha, love that the Scottish Tories are suddenly making out they have found their big boy bollox.

Aye right, voting it down? You’ll do what your lords and masters tell ye, like good little children.

As an aside. EU access to U.K. waters for City of London passporting. Best believe that will be part of the deal.

J

Aye, will they f vote it down. Davidson has her eyes on the prize of the trough at Westminster, they will be booted back into line.

[lapsedhibee]

Leave.EU have just recently removed the page on their website where they proudly talked of their links with Cambridge Analytica.

:aok:

[Tyler Durden]

Any evidence yet that Cambridge Analytica/Facebook were hired by Putin to bolster the leave campaign as part of a divide-and-rule strategy to take over the world?

Not sure if it’s been mentioned here previously but yeah there kinda is...

Maybe not evidence but there is a £400k+ donation to the DUP leave campaign which remains unaccounted for and clear links between the DUP and Putin.

And Aaron Banks has openly admitted Leave used CA.

The Russian influence on Brexit isn’t a bigger story because it doesn’t suit our Tory media agenda. Simple

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned here previously but yeah there kinda is...

Maybe not evidence but there is a £400k+ donation to the DUP leave campaign which remains unaccounted for and clear links between the DUP and Putin.

And Aaron Banks has openly admitted Leave used CA.

The Russian influence on Brexit isn’t a bigger story because it doesn’t suit our Tory media agenda. Simple

:aok:

Ffs!!

[Hibrandenburg]

As predicted near the beginning of this thread our airline industry is going to come under the cosh and will have major obstacles to overcome to try and compete as a third party in the EU. Affordable flights may become a thing of the past for many.

[beensaidbefore]

I’ve very little sympathy for the fishermen. They were only thinking of themselves when they were voting to leave, and they did the same when they voted for the Tories in the last election. They couldn’t give a toss about the rest of us. I hope they’re successful in their fight, but they’ll have to get in line with the rest of us in the brexit scramble.

Let's be honest. Everyone voted with what worked best for then, bot just the fishermen. Fruit farmers,etc all voted remain due the ease of migrant workers etc.

[beensaidbefore]

As predicted near the beginning of this thread our airline industry is going to come under the cosh and will have major obstacles to overcome to try and compete as a third party in the EU. Affordable flights may become a thing of the past for many.

Surely companies like Easyjet/Ryan air need us as much as we need them? Would that not see a continuation of cheap flights etc?

[Hibrandenburg]

Surely companies like Easyjet/Ryan air need us as much as we need them? Would that not see a continuation of cheap flights etc?

The associated costs with running an airline from a third party country that will have British Airlines operating at an economical disadvantage to airline's from within Europe will slowly but surely put them out the market. UK airlines will have to pass the extra cost on to the passengers. In the case of EasyJet who do about 50% of their business outside the UK, this will be substantial. Internal UK flights will potentially also end up carrying some of the costs accrued within the EU.

[beensaidbefore]

The associated costs with running an airline from a third party country that will have British Airlines operating at an economical disadvantage to airline's from within Europe will slowly but surely put them out the market. UK airlines will have to pass the extra cost on to the passengers. In the case of EasyJet who do about 50% of their business outside the UK, this will be substantial. Internal UK flights will potentially also end up carrying some of the costs accrued within the EU.

Ah OK, thanks. I didn't take that from the article but have no reason to doubt your take on things. Would we be able to go tit for tat and charge tourists travelling here more? Can't imagine eg Spain will be too chuffed if eh policy sees holidaymakers heading for Tulisa/Egypt etc instead

Let's hope some kind of sensible solution can be reached.

[Mibbes Aye]

As predicted near the beginning of this thread our airline industry is going to come under the cosh and will have major obstacles to overcome to try and compete as a third party in the EU. Affordable flights may become a thing of the past for many.

:agree:

Sadly but realistically, it's things like this that might shift a vital few percent in public thinking.

Hopefully it works.

[grunt]

:agree:

Sadly but realistically, it's things like this that might shift a vital few percent in public thinking.

Hopefully it works.
I can't see it making any difference. There seems to be a vast number of people who want out "at any cost".

[Hibrandenburg]

I can't see it making any difference. There seems to be a vast number of people who want out "at any cost".

The problem is that they think "any cost" will only have to be paid for by other people. Once it hits them in their own pocket it will open their eyes. The costs of Brexit will take time to filter down and the true price will only be really apparent in a few years time.

[JeMeSouviens]

The problem is that they think "any cost" will only have to be paid for by other people. Once it hits them in their own pocket it will open their eyes. The costs of Brexit will take time to filter down and the true price will only be really apparent in a few years time.

True but they may just retarget the scapegoating onto non-eu migrants and politicians who sold out their Brexit fantasy.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah OK, thanks. I didn't take that from the article but have no reason to doubt your take on things. Would we be able to go tit for tat and charge tourists travelling here more? Can't imagine eg Spain will be too chuffed if eh policy sees holidaymakers heading for Tulisa/Egypt etc instead

Let's hope some kind of sensible solution can be reached.

It's not an article as such, it's a memo from the EU transport and air safety commission.

Your point is a valid one, UK airlines will offer alternatives that are cost effective which might save their UK market, but those markets will only be outbound markets because I can't see many citizens of Egypt, Tunisia or Morocco travelling to the UK for a bank holiday weekend. At present there's millions of tourists visiting the UK that might not do so due to complexity or cost, add to that that some politicians are actually considering a tourist tax on top then things will only deteriorate more. Mad times.

[RyeSloan]

As predicted near the beginning of this thread our airline industry is going to come under the cosh and will have major obstacles to overcome to try and compete as a third party in the EU. Affordable flights may become a thing of the past for many.

Yet Johan Lundgren (CEO of EasyJet) appears rather nonplussed by it all even calling Brexit ‘business as usual’ recently!

Suggesting affordable flights may become a thing of the past is just more scare mongering prior to you knowing any details of the agreements between the UK/EU on air travel.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet Johan Lundgren (CEO of EasyJet) appears rather nonplussed by it all even calling Brexit ‘business as usual’ recently!

Suggesting affordable flights may become a thing of the past is just more scare mongering prior to you knowing any details of the agreements between the UK/EU on air travel.

I would be in his shoes too, he has to be otherwise shares would take a nosedive. Imagine if the shareholders found out that nigh on all his pilots had been forced to change their international EU licences for UK EASA licences a few months before the Brexit vote. Or if his company were looking at transferring half his fleet onto an Austrian operators licence meaning half the corporation tax easyjet pays in the UK will now go into the Austrian Exchequer. Imagine if half his crew couldn't fly on half his aircraft due to registration legislation and meaning the simplified inter-changeable crew/aircraft policy that they use is no longer possible. He might be nonplussed on the inside but I'll bet he's crying like a yam on a Bulgarian balcony.

[RyeSloan]

I would be in his shoes too, he has to be otherwise shares would take a nosedive. Imagine if the shareholders found out that nigh on all his pilots had been forced to change their international EU licences for UK EASA licences a few months before the Brexit vote. Or if his company were looking at transferring half his fleet onto an Austrian operators licence meaning half the corporation tax easyjet pays in the UK will now go into the Austrian Exchequer. Imagine if half his crew couldn't fly on half his aircraft due to registration legislation and meaning the simplified inter-changeable crew/aircraft policy that they use is no longer possible. He might be nonplussed on the inside but I'll bet he's crying like a yam on a Bulgarian balcony.

Aww boo hoo for EasyJet...they have had to create an Austrian subsidiary to meet EU rules, should fit nicely with their UK and Swiss operations.

And does anyone really care if their pilots and staff are flying under UK or EU licences or if they need to be more creative in their rostering if UK staff are not allowed to be on OE registered planes? Clearly more overhead / hassle for EasyJet which may lower their earnings for a wee while but hardly the end of the competition in the ultra competitive world of low cost flights that would be needed to bring about your scenario of the demise of the affordable flight.

[WeeRussell]

Aww boo hoo for EasyJet...they have had to create an Austrian subsidiary to meet EU rules, should fit nicely with their UK and Swiss operations.

And does anyone really care if their pilots and staff are flying under UK or EU licences or if they need to be more creative in their rostering if UK staff are not allowed to be on OE registered planes? Clearly more overhead / hassle for EasyJet which may lower their earnings for a wee while but hardly the end of the competition in the ultra competitive world of low cost flights that would be needed to bring about your scenario of the demise of the affordable flight.

Is this before or after knowing any details of the agreements between the UK/EU on air travel?

[RyeSloan]

Is this before or after knowing any details of the agreements between the UK/EU on air travel?

I was merely responding to the points being made.

As it is I’m reasonably comfortable that whatever the outcome the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair will continue to provide competitive affordable flying to the U.K. masses.

[JeMeSouviens]

Michael Gove:


The striking thing is that, however people want to characterise the Brexit vote ... the characterisation of it as somehow having led to worse communal relations or a more hostile attitude to migration - that just isn’t borne out by the facts.

What ****** planet? :rolleyes:

[grunt]

I was merely responding to the points being made.

As it is I’m reasonably comfortable that whatever the outcome the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair will continue to provide competitive affordable flying to the U.K. masses.

Where does your comfort come from? Or is this simply wishful thinking?

[RyeSloan]

Where does your comfort come from? Or is this simply wishful thinking?

It comes from the fact that I believe there will be sensible measures put in place and the comments coming from the likes of EasyJet themselves:

"Structurally we now have everything in place that protects all of our flying rights both in Europe and the UK,"

“Finally, to ensure that we can use this new structure to continue to operate all of our flights after Brexit easyJet is working with the UK government, EU institutions and EU member states to ensure that flying rights between the UK and the EU are maintained.

“Given that consumers, airlines and politicians across the UK and Europe all want flights between the UK and EU to continue after Brexit we are confident there will be an agreement.”

[grunt]

It comes from the fact that I believe there will be sensible measures put in place and the comments coming from the likes of EasyJet themselves.Thanks for the reply. i hope you - and EasyJet - are right.

[heretoday]

This customs union thing is a fudge. Forget it.

It's Brexit so get on with it.

If it's a disaster we'll be back in ten years with another referendum to re-enter the EU - if they'll have us.

[Hibrandenburg]

This customs union thing is a fudge. Forget it.

It's Brexit so get on with it.

If it's a disaster we'll be back in ten years with another referendum to re-enter the EU - if they'll have us.

No, piss off you're all gits.

[Colr]

300bn negative swing in inward investment over the last 12 months.

Reported? Yer arse!

[RyeSloan]

300bn negative swing in inward investment over the last 12 months.

Reported? Yer arse!

Sheesh man do a bit of research before casting conspiracy aspersions.

FDI has had a huge swing only because 2016 was massively inflated due to major corporate deals. Not least SABMiller being bought by InBev for £100bn.

You simply can’t take FDI figures in isolation for that reason.

A much better assessment of business investment is GFCF which has been strong since the Brexit vote and indeed the last quarter of 2017 saw a record amount of business investment and an annualised rate of increase higher than any G7 country

Reported? Yer arse.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gross-fixed-capital-formation

[Mon Dieu4]

Dunno why I'm thinking this of all things an hour before the derby, but has anything been said about football transfers post brexit? I'm guessing EU players will have to get a work permit and will have to satisfy the criteria, just made it much harder to make signings

[Smartie]

Dunno why I'm thinking this of all things an hour before the derby, but has anything been said about football transfers post brexit? I'm guessing EU players will have to get a work permit and will have to satisfy the criteria, just made it much harder to make signings

Yes.

That's roughly how it worked in Football Manager.

And for European clubs, UK players would no longer count as EU players any more and would have to be included in any non-EU player quotas that exist.

Smart British footballers who fancy a jaunt on the continent when the economy in this country goes belly-up will be scanning their family trees for Irish grannies to get that valuable passport.

[Mon Dieu4]

Yes.

That's roughly how it worked in Football Manager.

And for European clubs, UK players would no longer count as EU players any more and would have to be included in any non-EU player quotas that exist.

Smart British footballers who fancy a jaunt on the continent when the economy in this country goes belly-up will be scanning their family trees for Irish grannies to get that valuable passport.

Thanks very much, Thought that would be the case, the way my brain works at times scares me, now onto the derby!!

[Smartie]

Thanks very much, Thought that would be the case, the way my brain works at times scares me, now onto the derby!!

Tbh I don't think anyone knows for sure yet how it will work out - it depends on what kind of a "deal" we make with the EU.

I don't see how footballers could be treated differently to any other workers though.

That looks to be the most likely way it will end up though, and it was quite interesting to see how Football Manager approached it.

[Colr]

This customs union thing is a fudge. Forget it.

It's Brexit so get on with it.

If it's a disaster we'll be back in ten years with another referendum to re-enter the EU - if they'll have us.
As younger people get the vote and the old *******s die off?

[ronaldo7]

This story is indicative of what Scotland can expect if they succumb to the Tory power grab.

Scottish hill farmers have been due cash from 2013, and the Tories have redistributed it to English and Welsh farmers instead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44085955

[speedy_gonzales]

This story is indicative of what Scotland can expect if they succumb to the Tory power grab.

Scottish hill farmers have been due cash from 2013, and the Tories have redistributed it to English and Welsh farmers instead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44085955
I've read that article more than once and I don't understand 100% what's going on, but is it not the case the monies from the EU is getting shared amongst all home countries to the possible detriment of Scottish farmers, and not just given to English & Welsh farmers instead as you've stated?
Apologies if I've misread something but it would appear the sitting government has an agreement to share all extra monies amongst all rather than make enhanced payments to the select few(arguably to those in need?).

[Just Alf]

I've read that article more than once and I don't understand 100% what's going on, but is it not the case the monies from the EU is getting shared amongst all home countries to the possible detriment of Scottish farmers, and not just given to English & Welsh farmers instead as you've stated?
Apologies if I've misread something but it would appear the sitting government has an agreement to share all extra monies amongst all rather than make enhanced payments to the select few(arguably to those in need?).

I think that's "sort of" right.... the EU identified that the Scottish farmers were under funded due to their location/infrastructure so set aside extra cash for them, as it's not a devolved matter the cash went to the UK government to distribute but they (UK Gov) then made a decision to share it out across the board, in effect helping some farmers that didn't need help to the same extent (they have lower costs as they were nearer key markets, cheaper fuel costs, more productive land etc etc) ..... that's my take on it reading from a few separate sources at least :agree:

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-food-medicine-shortage-doomsday-armageddon-david-davis-a8381076.html%3famp

'The supermarkets in Cornwall and Scotland will run out of food within a couple of days, and hospitals will run out of medicines within two weeks,' a source said

Enjoy the rest of your day! :greengrin

[Colr]

Rumours David Davis is going to resign.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Rumours David Davis is going to resign.

Wow, that would be interesting.

Maybe, just maybe the whole thing is unravelling...?

[Hibrandenburg]

The EU states are warned to already stop buying British made products.

[Killiehibbie]

The EU states are warned to already stop buying British made products.

Who has most to lose if everybody stopped buying from the other? I'd imagine the uk buys more from eu countries than it sells to them.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who has most to lose if everybody stopped buying from the other? I'd imagine the uk buys more from eu countries than it sells to them.

I've never understood this logic. The EU is in danger of losing its free trade with one EU country, the UK potentially the whole of the EU or 27 countries. That's only the start though, due to its size the EU could also use it's economic size and power to inhibit UK trade with third parties.

[Killiehibbie]

I've never understood this logic. The EU is in danger of losing its free trade with one EU country, the UK potentially the whole of the EU or 27 countries. That's only the start though, due to its size the EU could also use it's economic size and power to inhibit UK trade with third parties.
If the eu exports more to the uk than it imports it must lose out. Will they just pass the hat round for those directly affected?

[RyeSloan]

The EU states are warned to already stop buying British made products.

Warned by who?

And just British made products or services as well?

And if the products are made in the U.K. but by European owned companies are they to be warned not to buy these as well?

And if this is true are you saying that Airbus has been warned to make planes without wing and fuel systems?

In other words this is bollox isn’t it?

[JeMeSouviens]

If the eu exports more to the uk than it imports it must lose out. Will they just pass the hat round for those directly affected?

The overall balance isn't particularly useful.

1. The %age of the overall figure for UK trade to/from the EU vs any individual country within the EU27's trade to/from the UK is going to show it's much more important to the UK.
2. Trade coming to the UK is largely goods which, given there's very likely at least going to be a Canada style FTA, is probably going to be mostly protected from tariffs etc.
3. Trade going from the UK is largely services, particularly financial services, which isn't.
4. The threat of the single market unravelling is a much bigger driver for the EU than maintaining trade with the UK.

[Stranraer]

I see the Brexit secretary and the PM are at odds with each other and having a meeting today to try and resolve things. Would I be right in saying that David Davis was very much pro-Brexit?

[JeMeSouviens]

Wow, that would be interesting.

Maybe, just maybe the whole thing is unravelling...?

It's easy to forget that all this fannying about is *before* their negotiating position has got anywhere near the EU side.

[JeMeSouviens]

Davis has "won" apparently and forced the government's Irish border backstop position into a form they already know is unacceptable to the EU. :crazy:

[JeMeSouviens]

Davis has "won" apparently and forced the government's Irish border backstop position into a form they already know is unacceptable to the EU. :crazy:

The backstop now published and there's no end date, merely the "expectation" of an end date. So looks like Davis "lost" after all.

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian's rolling coverage ...


“It’s a sentence added for political expediency,” said one Whitehall source, adding that the EU could easily sign up to it. “They operate in the legal sphere.”

Asked whether it was plausible the deadline would be met, he added: “It’s taken us seven years to put 150,000 people on universal credit.”

If you don't laugh :faf: you'll :boo hoo:

[Colr]

The EU states are warned to already stop buying British made products.

Specifically, the Dutch car industry (didn’t know they had one) have been warned by their government.

[RyeSloan]

Specifically, the Dutch car industry (didn’t know they had one) have been warned by their government.

Nope. They have been reminded of the rules of origin and originating content rules.

Quite different from saying all EU states have been warned to stop buying U.K. products.

One is a reminder that U.K. car parts won’t contribute to the EU rules of origin requirement so manufactures need to be aware of the impact of that (which maybe some or possibly none depending on what percentage of their end product originates in the U.K.) the other indicates some sort of EU instruction to all states to stop buying all U.K. products which would effectively be an embargo.

[Hibbyradge]

https://twitter.com/garius/status/1004429475692544000?s=19

Some of the comments are very good too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nope. They have been reminded of the rules of origin and originating content rules.

Quite different from saying all EU states have been warned to stop buying U.K. products.

One is a reminder that U.K. car parts won’t contribute to the EU rules of origin requirement so manufactures need to be aware of the impact of that (which maybe some or possibly none depending on what percentage of their end product originates in the U.K.) the other indicates some sort of EU instruction to all states to stop buying all U.K. products which would effectively be an embargo.

That's only the start. Every company in the EU will now be weighing up the pros and cons of buying British goods or components.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gordon-brown-scotland-is-not-stable-or-secure-in-union-1-4749962

Trying to figure out his angle here.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gordon-brown-scotland-is-not-stable-or-secure-in-union-1-4749962

Trying to figure out his angle here.

Frankly, wgaf?

[Hibrandenburg]

Frankly, wgaf?

Many in Scotland who still hold his opinion to be important, quite a few of them on here.

[Hibbyradge]

Frankly, wgaf?

I agree with him and I'd be very surprised if many don't.

Scotland's place in the UK is threatened (even more) by Brexit and the way it's being handled.

I would think that Nicola Sturgeon will have enjoyed reading that.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gordon-brown-scotland-is-not-stable-or-secure-in-union-1-4749962

Trying to figure out his angle here.

I think he's having a go at the government for their mishandling of Brexit and adding weight to the remain argument.

[weecounty hibby]

I was pretty depressed heading to bed last night after switching off Question Time in a rage. While discussing Brexit two comments from the audience summed up the thinking of the electorate in England. One woman said " we need more Churchillian moments" left it at that and said nothing more and got a round of applause!! Next guy said " we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we should just pull up the anchor and sail away" again no builds or plan but again a round of applause! All bluster and rhetoric with no plan on what to actually do. Unfortunately the government are exactly the same as these audience members. Still thinking Brittania rules the waves and that the empire covers half the globe and they look upon England as the mother country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was pretty depressed heading to bed last night after switching off Question Time in a rage. While discussing Brexit two comments from the audience summed up the thinking of the electorate in England. One woman said " we need more Churchillian moments" left it at that and said nothing more and got a round of applause!! Next guy said " we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we should just pull up the anchor and sail away" again no builds or plan but again a round of applause! All bluster and rhetoric with no plan on what to actually do. Unfortunately the government are exactly the same as these audience members. Still thinking Brittania rules the waves and that the empire covers half the globe and they look upon England as the mother country.

I don't think for a minute that the government believes that, they're simply playing to their audience and like you say their audience is full of bluster with no idea of what the consequences are of what they think they want.

[RyeSloan]

I don't think for a minute that the government believes that, they're simply playing to their audience and like you say their audience is full of bluster with no idea of what the consequences are of what they think they want.

Is that not what almost all politicians do?

Labour is playing to the nationalise the country for free and for the workers audience with no regard to what the consequences are.

SNP have been doing the same on Indy for ever

The Tories instinctively look to propose policies that supports their core vote time and again

The greens bang on about anyone getting paid more than £27k as if they should be shot without considering just where a huge chunk in income tax revenue comes from and appear to believe we can all cycle and walk everywhere

To be fair it is hard to accuse the Lib Dem’s of this though as no one quite knows what they actually would pander to.

It’s kind of the nature of the beast but granted it’s pretty full on just now as all sides load up on rhetoric rather than ‘getting on with the day job’

[grunt]

I was pretty depressed heading to bed last night after switching off Question Time in a rage.
I am certain of one thing: BBCQT is not good for my health.



Next guy said " we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we should just pull up the anchor and sail away" From the panel Shami Chakrabarti replied, "Where to?" I thought that was a good swift response.

[stantonhibby]

I am certain of one thing: BBCQT is not good for my health.


From the panel Shami Chakrabarti replied, "Where to?" I thought that was a good swift response.


Yep....i think that was actually what the applause was for on that occasion

[Stranraer]

I was pretty depressed heading to bed last night after switching off Question Time in a rage. While discussing Brexit two comments from the audience summed up the thinking of the electorate in England. One woman said " we need more Churchillian moments" left it at that and said nothing more and got a round of applause!! Next guy said " we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we should just pull up the anchor and sail away" again no builds or plan but again a round of applause! All bluster and rhetoric with no plan on what to actually do. Unfortunately the government are exactly the same as these audience members. Still thinking Brittania rules the waves and that the empire covers half the globe and they look upon England as the mother country.

I get so wound up by Question Time that I stopped watching it. The last time I sat through a whole episode was when Alex Salmond was on the panel following the 2014 referendum. The Labour MP Caroline Flint said "you lost" to him and got a round of applause. Little did she know that in the 2015 election the following year Labour would be all but wiped out in Scotland.

[ronaldo7]

I believe Solihull voted leave. The irony in jaguar sending the discovery model to Slovenia won't be lost on them then.

This is not turning out well.

[JeMeSouviens]

The government has backed down in order to avoid losing to opposition + Tory rebs who threatened to vote for an amendment on a "meaningful vote" on the deal.

Robert Peston says:


May is conceding

1) that within seven days of May agreeing a Brexit deal, a motion to approve said deal must go to the Commons

2) that if there is no Brexit deal agreed by 30 November this year, the government must seek approval for its next course of action from MPs,

and 3) May will consider how to capture Grieve's other demand that MPs and Lords must be able to instruct the government on how to proceed should there be no Brexit deal by 15 Feb 2019.

Arguably this transfers considerable power to MPs over the shape of a future Brexit deal. And it probably means that a no-deal Brexit is no longer any kind of realistic prospect.

It means that if May really believes she was able to put negotiating pressure on the rest of the EU by threatening to Brexit without a deal, she has lost that leverage.

In other words, one of her favourite catchphrases - that no deal is better than a bad deal - is dead. And that will be official in just a few days, when the bill returns to the Lords.

Thank f for that.

[snooky]

I was pretty depressed heading to bed last night after switching off Question Time in a rage. While discussing Brexit two comments from the audience summed up the thinking of the electorate in England. One woman said " we need more Churchillian moments" left it at that and said nothing more and got a round of applause!! Next guy said " we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we should just pull up the anchor and sail away" again no builds or plan but again a round of applause! All bluster and rhetoric with no plan on what to actually do. Unfortunately the government are exactly the same as these audience members. Still thinking Brittania rules the waves and that the empire covers half the globe and they look upon England as the mother country.

Very similar to Trump's rhetoric. "Let's ditch the world and go back to when we were prosperous".
Prosperous - no. Preposterous - yes (unless you are a time traveller).

[steakbake]

The government has backed down in order to avoid losing to opposition + Tory rebs who threatened to vote for an amendment on a "meaningful vote" on the deal.

Robert Peston says:



Thank f for that.

A no deal Brexit is no leverage. It’s like me wanting to get out of my mortgage responsibilities by threatening to destroy my house.

[Colr]

Very similar to Trump's rhetoric. "Let's ditch the world and go back to when we were prosperous".
Prosperous - no. Preposterous - yes (unless you are a time traveller).

Similar message got some leverage in 1933 Germany.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A no deal Brexit is no leverage. It’s like me wanting to get out of my mortgage responsibilities by threatening to destroy my house.

Would it not be more like getting out of your mortgage, not paying back the sum borrowed, and doing some pretty major (but unspecified and expensive) damage to your house?

Ie nobody does well out of it.

Was reading a piece in guardian yesterday that said no deal is now very unlikely as there is no parliamentary majority for it - the trouble is there is no majority for anything else either.

[Sylar]

Somewhat unprecedented scenes in Westminster today, with the entire SNP cohort of MPs walking out in protest to last night's vote.

To the cheering and derision of all other sides of the house, of course.

Very unpleasant circumstances all around.

[Moulin Yarns]

Somewhat unprecedented scenes in Westminster today, with the entire SNP cohort of MPs walking out in protest to last night's vote.

To the cheering and derision of all other sides of the house, of course.

Very unpleasant circumstances all around.

Ian Blackford asked for the session to be held in private with no public gallery or press. As I understand it there are clear procedures and it should have gone straight to a vote with no debate.

John Bercow consulted with Parliamentary officer and decided the session would go ahead with the vote at the end.

John Bercow was wrong. Ian Blackford refused to sit and was barred from the days proceedings and the whole of the SNP group left the chamber.

[ronaldo7]

Ian Blackford asked for the session to be held in private with no public gallery or press. As I understand it there are clear procedures and it should have gone straight to a vote with no debate.

John Bercow consulted with Parliamentary officer and decided the session would go ahead with the vote at the end.

John Bercow was wrong. Ian Blackford refused to sit and was barred from the days proceedings and the whole of the SNP group left the chamber.

Bercow actually asked, blackford if he wanted the vote now, he said yes, and the bercow changed his mind, and said he'd have it after Pmq's, blackford challenged it, and was told to leave

[JeMeSouviens]

Somewhat unprecedented scenes in Westminster today, with the entire SNP cohort of MPs walking out in protest to last night's vote.

To the cheering and derision of all other sides of the house, of course.

Very unpleasant circumstances all around.

It's obviously a publicity stunt but last night, a UK gov minister spoke for the entire 15 mins allotted to discuss devolution parts of bill and took interventions only from Tories. Media says (almost) nothing. Today, SNP have protest stunt, issue is main headline on BBC news, etc.

Sometimes publicity stunts are useful.

[marinello59]

It's obviously a publicity stunt but last night, a UK gov minister spoke for the entire 15 mins allotted to discuss devolution parts of bill and took interventions only from Tories. Media says (almost) nothing. Today, SNP have protest stunt, issue is main headline on BBC news, etc.

Sometimes publicity stunts are useful.

This one certainly was. Well done to them.

[JimBHibees]

It's obviously a publicity stunt but last night, a UK gov minister spoke for the entire 15 mins allotted to discuss devolution parts of bill and took interventions only from Tories. Media says (almost) nothing. Today, SNP have protest stunt, issue is main headline on BBC news, etc.

Sometimes publicity stunts are useful.

Agree that should have been the story last night about not allowing a proper debate re devolved parliaments and brexit yet nothing or next to nothing. Our press really are horrific on occasion.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's obviously a publicity stunt but last night, a UK gov minister spoke for the entire 15 mins allotted to discuss devolution parts of bill and took interventions only from Tories. Media says (almost) nothing. Today, SNP have protest stunt, issue is main headline on BBC news, etc.

Sometimes publicity stunts are useful.

Ah yes, English votes for English laws is all good and well, but when issues affect Scotland they Tory party dominated the full 15 minutes allocated to devolution in the Brexit debate.

Now, what would happen if the Scottish Government formed new laws on devolved issues in the meantime that would conflict with rUK laws?

[southfieldhibby]

Somewhat unprecedented scenes in Westminster today, with the entire SNP cohort of MPs walking out in protest to last night's vote.

To the cheering and derision of all other sides of the house, of course.

Very unpleasant circumstances all around.

Not unprecedented. Donald Dewar marched 50 Scottish MPs out of HoC in 87 when he felt Scotland was being ignored.


It's obviously a publicity stunt but last night, a UK gov minister spoke for the entire 15 mins allotted to discuss devolution parts of bill and took interventions only from Tories. Media says (almost) nothing. Today, SNP have protest stunt, issue is main headline on BBC news, etc.

Sometimes publicity stunts are useful.

Don't think he did talk for the entire 15 minutes, he just didn't take any interjections from Scottish MPs.

[Sylar]

Not unprecedented. Donald Dewar marched 50 Scottish MPs out of HoC in 87 when he felt Scotland was being ignored.


Forgive me, I was <1 year old at that point and hadn't quite formulated my interest in politics by then :greengrin

I certainly can't recall it happening in more recent times. But thanks for setting the record straight! :agree:

[southfieldhibby]

Forgive me, I was <1 year old at that point and hadn't quite formulated my interest in politics by then :greengrin

I certainly can't recall it happening in more recent times. But thanks for setting the record straight! :agree:

No problem. The pedant in me also wants to suggest they didn't walk out in protest over last nights vote, but I'll resist ;-)

[Bristolhibby]

Well done the SNP. It’s an outrageous land grab here by Westminster, all under the cover of Brexit. Something Scotland as a whole didn’t vote for. More unintended consequence of Brexit.

Blackford making a very important point and defending the Scottish Parliament from being eroded. Which even if you are a devolution Max No voter, you must still be outraged.

This is not an SNP issue. This is the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament issue.

I wish other Scottish MPs from other parties did likewise.

J

[One Day Soon]

Have they been told yet whether they were outraged or disappointed or is that being left to each MP to decide?

[Bristolhibby]

Have they been told yet whether they were outraged or disappointed or is that being left to each MP to decide?

?

[Mibbes Aye]

It was pretty lame, let’s be honest.

PMQs is PMQs and is the opportunity for Parliament to try and hold the Prime Minister to account. There is no way that should be aborted because Blackford wants an immediate vote.

Blackford could have requested an emergency debate to follow PMQs and almost certainly would have got it, but instead we get a publicity stunt, much like the post-election stuff with the clapping and sitting in the official Opposition spaces. Stuff that makes the TV news but glosses over a lack of policy detail.

[One Day Soon]

?

Check out twitter or the news. SNP MPs left their instructions on the parliament benches when they walked out. :faf:

[Bristolhibby]

Check out twitter or the news. SNP MPs left their instructions on the parliament benches when they walked out. :faf:

Can’t see that. If there were instructions, so what?

A party making a unified point is making a point.

I still believe that this is an attack on the Scottish Parliament.

Post Brexit, Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green and SNP MSPs will all have less power than they currently have. The filibustering last night was terrible.

A sad day.

J

[southfieldhibby]

Check out twitter or the news. SNP MPs left their instructions on the parliament benches when they walked out. :faf:

Peak banter, if it was accurate. Look at the top of the order being touted by unionist Tory MPs.. see if it says PMQs or yesterday’s order of business.

Good effort though

[Moulin Yarns]

It was pretty lame, let’s be honest.

PMQs is PMQs and is the opportunity for Parliament to try and hold the Prime Minister to account. There is no way that should be aborted because Blackford wants an immediate vote.

Blackford could have requested an emergency debate to follow PMQs and almost certainly would have got it, but instead we get a publicity stunt, much like the post-election stuff with the clapping and sitting in the official Opposition spaces. Stuff that makes the TV news but glosses over a lack of policy detail.

Bercow asked if Ian Blackford wanted the vote at the end of the session or now. He said now and then Bercow called for him to leave.

[Mibbes Aye]

Bercow asked if Ian Blackford wanted the vote at the end of the session or now. He said now and then Bercow called for him to leave.

He told him to leave because he was stopping PMQs progressing.

[The Pointer]

Juvenile, attention seeking, tedious rabble. Their behaviour doesn't exactly help their case.

[JimBHibees]

Can’t see that. If there were instructions, so what?

A party making a unified point is making a point.

I still believe that this is an attack on the Scottish Parliament.

Post Brexit, Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green and SNP MSPs will all have less power than they currently have. The filibustering last night was terrible.

A sad day.

J

Totally agree wish some of the other parties had some principles also

Shameful there was no debate last night about devolved governments re brexit.

[Bristolhibby]

Juvenile, attention seeking, tedious rabble. Their behaviour doesn't exactly help their case.

OK. The way the message was delivered aside. Does the Westminster power grab not concern you?

These are devolved powers going straight to to Westminster from the EU rather than remaining with the Scottish Parliament.

It’s also a slap in the face of those who believe in Devolution rather than Independence.

J

[IGRIGI]

Jockholm Syndrome out in full force amongst the yoons today.

I honestly think if unionists caught someone from Westminster riding their wife they'd just go sit in the corner and have a chug about their worthlessness.

It's ****ing pathetic and one of the reasons why I'm glad not to be in Scotland anymore, the lack of balls on show is embarrassing.

[ronaldo7]

It was pretty lame, let’s be honest.

PMQs is PMQs and is the opportunity for Parliament to try and hold the Prime Minister to account. There is no way that should be aborted because Blackford wants an immediate vote.

Blackford could have requested an emergency debate to follow PMQs and almost certainly would have got it, but instead we get a publicity stunt, much like the post-election stuff with the clapping and sitting in the official Opposition spaces. Stuff that makes the TV news but glosses over a lack of policy detail.

The Bain principle is strong with this one.

He went to the government in the morning to ask for emergency legislation so they could debate the devolution aspect of the bill, instead of the 19 minutes listening to a Tory minister.

Bercow had told then last night, when the many points of order were heard, that they should use the rules of parliament to bring their argument to the fore.

When, blackford used those rules, he was wrongfully suspended from the house.

Don't leave, lead the UK they said.

In yer dreams.

[ronaldo7]

Check out twitter or the news. SNP MPs left their instructions on the parliament benches when they walked out. :faf:

Really?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's obviously a stunt, but as others have said it has worked - and filibustering is a stupid anachronism that is just not fair, or constructive so while I think some of the SNP's pettiness towards Westminster was childish attention seeking, I think in this instance they may have a point, or at least some justification.

[southfieldhibby]

Really?

No. It’s a lie.

[fulshie]

It was a stunt but its a stunt that has gained the attention of most non political minded Scots. If there hadn't been a walkout then the debate the Speaker said could happen at the end wouldn't have made the news and no one would be any wiser. Sometimes these sort of things have to have happen for the people to realise what is going on and to gain attention. Our democracy at Holyrood is without doubt being attacked and I for one think its an absolute outrage and I'm now happy that I'm hearing people who don't really care too much about politics say the same thing.

[johnbc70]

Great publicity stunt but ultimately what has it achieved? Has it lead to a new debate or progress in what caused the grievance in the first place? Maybe some fresh thinking was required to get a new approach agreed.

If some of us just walked out where we worked then I am sure some of us wouldn't have a job to go back to.

[grunt]

If some of us just walked out where we worked then I am sure some of us wouldn't have a job to go back to.

It’s really not the same thing at all, is it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

Great publicity stunt but ultimately what has it achieved? Has it lead to a new debate or progress in what caused the grievance in the first place? Maybe some fresh thinking was required to get a new approach agreed.

If some of us just walked out where we worked then I am sure some of us wouldn't have a job to go back to.

See the post above your post for your answer.

J

[One Day Soon]

It was a stunt but its a stunt that has gained the attention of most non political minded Scots. If there hadn't been a walkout then the debate the Speaker said could happen at the end wouldn't have made the news and no one would be any wiser. Sometimes these sort of things have to have happen for the people to realise what is going on and to gain attention. Our democracy at Holyrood is without doubt being attacked and I for one think its an absolute outrage and I'm now happy that I'm hearing people who don't really care too much about politics say the same thing.


Most people just don't give a ****. It's a non-story, except for political obsessives who desperately want it to be a story.

There should have been a third option: outraged/disappointed/heard it.

[Colr]

Does the Westminster power grab not concern you?

J

Westminster looks more like the Weimar Republic every day!!

[One Day Soon]

The Bain principle is strong with this one.

He went to the government in the morning to ask for emergency legislation so they could debate the devolution aspect of the bill, instead of the 19 minutes listening to a Tory minister.

Bercow had told then last night, when the many points of order were heard, that they should use the rules of parliament to bring their argument to the fore.

When, blackford used those rules, he was wrongfully suspended from the house.

Don't leave, lead the UK they said.

In yer dreams.


Aye, it's all tears and snotters.

[danhibees1875]

It was a stunt but its a stunt that has gained the attention of most non political minded Scots. If there hadn't been a walkout then the debate the Speaker said could happen at the end wouldn't have made the news and no one would be any wiser. Sometimes these sort of things have to have happen for the people to realise what is going on and to gain attention. Our democracy at Holyrood is without doubt being attacked and I for one think its an absolute outrage and I'm now happy that I'm hearing people who don't really care too much about politics say the same thing.

Has that actually happened though?

As with most politics, people who liked the SNP/independence are saying it has highlighted to the masses how unfairly we're treated and those who don't like SNP/independence are saying that it was a classless premeditated stunt.

There's the odd exception either way naturally, but on the whole I don't know if it's highlighted much to anyone. :dunno:

[Mibbes Aye]

The Bain principle is strong with this one.

He went to the government in the morning to ask for emergency legislation so they could debate the devolution aspect of the bill, instead of the 19 minutes listening to a Tory minister.

Bercow had told then last night, when the many points of order were heard, that they should use the rules of parliament to bring their argument to the fore.

When, blackford used those rules, he was wrongfully suspended from the house.

Don't leave, lead the UK they said.

In yer dreams.

You know and I know that you made that up.

The Bain principle is funny, another made-up nationalist thing to try and create and stoke difference. Which is why you only ever hear Nats mentioning it. It’s not a principle, that term gives it some sort of authority or legitimacy it simply doesn’t have.

There are plenty of examples of SNP and Labour politicians voting together at all levels of government.

But it doesn’t create resentment if you admit that, does it?

And lets be honest, nationalism relies on resentment, it’s the fuel you need to get your majority.

[johnbc70]

It's bound to be the hot topic of discussion in the offices, building sites and factories tomorrow. Love Island will be at the back of the queue!

[Bristolhibby]

Has that actually happened though?

As with most politics, people who liked the SNP/independence are saying it has highlighted to the masses how unfairly we're treated and those who don't like SNP/independence are saying that it was a classless premeditated stunt.

There's the odd exception either way naturally, but on the whole I don't know if it's highlighted much to anyone. :dunno:

For a non story, 1500 people have actually joined the SNP since PMQs this afternoon.

Pretty impressive IMHO.

J

[johnbc70]

It’s really not the same thing at all, is it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Why is that? If we all walked out every time something never went the way we wanted it then nothing would get done. As I said a point was made, but what progression was made on solving what caused the walkout in the first place?

[One Day Soon]

For a non story, 1500 people have actually joined the SNP since PMQs this afternoon.

Pretty impressive IMHO.

J

Sure they have.

[Colr]

For a non story, 1500 people have actually joined the SNP since PMQs this afternoon.

Pretty impressive IMHO.

J

This surely is the age of fat lies!

[Mibbes Aye]

For a non story, 1500 people have actually joined the SNP since PMQs this afternoon.

Pretty impressive IMHO.

J

Cool story bro.

[Hibrandenburg]

Great publicity stunt but ultimately what has it achieved? Has it lead to a new debate or progress in what caused the grievance in the first place? Maybe some fresh thinking was required to get a new approach agreed.

If some of us just walked out where we worked then I am sure some of us wouldn't have a job to go back to.

Correct, we really need to learn our place.

[One Day Soon]

Correct, we really need to learn our place.

'we'

[Hibrandenburg]

'we'

You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.

[Mibbes Aye]

Correct, we really need to learn our place.

Who is this ‘we’ you speak of? I’m not sure it’s you and me.

[One Day Soon]

You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.

'we' all think the same do we?

[Mibbes Aye]

You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.

Are you saying ‘we’ are homogenous and that the border hasn’t been a shifting line on a map, dictated by geographical features and whichever unelected tyrant/leader had the stronger army?

[Slavers]

Why is that? If we all walked out every time something never went the way we wanted it then nothing would get done. As I said a point was made, but what progression was made on solving what caused the walkout in the first place?

No progress.

What a way to show the rest world the Scottish political talent we have - storming out Westminster raging with injustice.

No sitting and waiting wanting to have dialogue even if it meant working beyond normal hours to get an agreement in place, no thoughts of compromise, no cooperation, no winners just more grievance, more Ill feeling and resentment between the SNP the rest of UK politics .

[Bristolhibby]

Cool story bro.

Thanks.

Well I was impressed. Glad you are too.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks.

I was impressed. Glad you are too.

J

Yeah, I wasn’t impressed, thought it was a cool story though :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

Are you saying ‘we’ are homogenous and that the border hasn’t been a shifting line on a map, dictated by geographical features and whichever unelected tyrant/leader had the stronger army?

Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.

It’s funny because you can read so many posts on here where people actively differentiate themselves from HOMFC fans and more especially The Rangers and Celtic fans.

Not seeing much homogenity there. Or shared traits.

And its it’s only been in the last two or three hundred years that the highlands and lowlands have been brought together in an enforced sense of nationhood, that funnily almost mirrors the rise of ‘Britishness’.

As for your statement about whether Scotland exists, you didn’t address my point that the ‘border’ has moved countless times depending on the balance of power between feuding monarchs and lords. Is that really how a nation should be defined? Where the line ended up being drawn, after it made more financial sense to trade rather than fight?

It merely reinforces the point that nationhood is a social construction which relies heavily on artificial differentiation and often the stoking of grievance and resentment.

People are better than that, or at least some of us think so.

[Bristolhibby]

Yeah, I wasn’t impressed, thought it was a cool story though :agree:

Fair one. Good to see people being inspired by politics.

J

[RyeSloan]

OK. The way the message was delivered aside. Does the Westminster power grab not concern you?

These are devolved powers going straight to to Westminster from the EU rather than remaining with the Scottish Parliament.

It’s also a slap in the face of those who believe in Devolution rather than Independence.

J

How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.

[Mibbes Aye]

How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.

I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s funny because you can read so many posts on here where people actively differentiate themselves from HOMFC fans and more especially The Rangers and Celtic fans.

Not seeing much homogenity there. Or shared traits.

And its it’s only been in the last two or three hundred years that the highlands and lowlands have been brought together in an enforced sense of nationhood, that funnily almost mirrors the rise of ‘Britishness’.

As for your statement about whether Scotland exists, you didn’t address my point that the ‘border’ has moved countless times depending on the balance of power between feuding monarchs and lords. Is that really how a nation should be defined? Where the line ended up being drawn, after it made more financial sense to trade rather than fight?

It merely reinforces the point that nationhood is a social construction which relies heavily on artificial differentiation and often the stoking of grievance and resentment.

People are better than that, or at least some of us think so.

Your view of nationalism is stuck in the 1930's. The driving force behind MY wish for independence and that of many others is not governed by the desire to distinguish ourselves from the rest of humanity steered by some sense of superiority, it's driven by a wish to have our voices heard. You're outdated ideals of international socialism took a bashing in the Brexit referendum when those areas that traditionally were the backbone of the Labour Party turned out to vote for nationalism before internationalism and showed that many of your previous comrades are in fact national socialists. That's a hard pill to swallow but swallow it you must. Your Labour party still continues to support nationalism with the exception of a few who made a principled stand today by resigning from their shadow cabinet posts. Contrary to that the SNP along with the lib dems and greens have continued to campaign for the UK stay in the European family. The Labour Party have lost their way and instead of listening to their core vote, they're busy trying not to lose ground to the right by courting their voters.

[Bristolhibby]

How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.

The EU powers we are talking about are devolved matters. There should be no debate. Devolved matters vest with the devolved institutions, not Westminster.

Not sure I understand the consistency across the U.K. argument. There currently isn’t consistency across the U.K. and there won’t be in Northern Ireland post Brexit.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Your view of nationalism is stuck in the 1930's. The driving force behind MY wish for independence and that of many others is not governed by the desire to distinguish ourselves from the rest of humanity steered by some sense of superiority, it's driven by a wish to have our voices heard. You're outdated ideals of international socialism took a bashing in the Brexit referendum when those areas that traditionally were the backbone of the Labour Party turned out to vote for nationalism before internationalism and showed that many of your previous comrades are in fact national socialists. That's a hard pill to swallow but swallow it you must. Your Labour party still continues to support nationalism with the exception of a few who made a principled stand today by resigning from their shadow cabinet posts. Contrary to that the SNP along with the lib dems and greens have continued to campaign for the UK stay in the European family. The Labour Party have lost their way and instead of listening to their core vote, they're busy trying not to lose ground to the right by courting their voters.

Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?

[RyeSloan]

The EU powers we are talking about are devolved matters. There should be no debate. Devolved matters vest with the devolved institutions, not Westminster.

Not sure I understand the consistency across the U.K. argument. There currently isn’t consistency across the U.K. and there won’t be in Northern Ireland post Brexit.

J


Of course there should be debate. Life isn’t black and white.

It’s also useful to know just what is being squabbled over. The majority of powers are being fully devolved or in non legislative ways. In fact when you remove defra from the equation there is only a handful of areas where the powers will be retained at U.K. level.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/government-analysis-intersection-eu-law-and-devolved-competence-–-scotland

Considering the unholy mess the EU has made of its agricultural policies is it any wonder that the U.K. might rightly think that just splintering the prop that CAP has provided all these years into pieces immediately might not be the best approach?

[Mibbes Aye]

Of course there should be debate. Life isn’t black and white.

It’s also useful to know just what is being squabbled over. The majority of powers are being fully devolved or in non legislative ways. In fact when you remove defra from the equation there is only a handful of areas where the powers will be retained at U.K. level.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/government-analysis-intersection-eu-law-and-devolved-competence-–-scotland (https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/government-analysis-intersection-eu-law-and-devolved-competence-–-scotland)

Considering the unholy mess the EU has made of its agricultural policies is it any wonder that the U.K. might rightly think that just splintering the prop that CAP has provided all these years into pieces immediately might not be the best approach?

I think ‘unholy mess’ is unfair. There was a lot of aggressive and successful lobbying by various vested interests over decades, and that hard work and those dark arts and deeds need recognised :greengrin

Plus, the politicking and lobbying resembles the papal court at the time of the Borgias and there’s nothing unholy about the papacy :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.


Have you not previously explained on here how you reject the idea of 'blood and soil nationalism?

The above seems like you are describing exactly that.

Otherwise, how else would you say 'we' share certain traits, culture, temprament or geography?

You say the Scots are homogenous, something I think is agree with to an extent, but is surely counter to the idea of civic nationalism where, as I understand it, anybody who lives here is 'Scottish? Other than sharing the same city or country, I'm not sure how that would sit with us being homogenous?

[RyeSloan]

I think ‘unholy mess’ is unfair. There was a lot of aggressive and successful lobbying by various vested interests over decades, and that hard work and those dark arts and deeds need recognised :greengrin

Plus, the politicking and lobbying resembles the papal court at the time of the Borgias and there’s nothing unholy about the papacy :greengrin

Hmm fair point, well made [emoji1303][emoji38]

[Mr Grieves]

There's your man that was responsible for 'The Vow', openly supporting independence now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/independence-is-the-means-to-a-greater-end-jt3lpsjkg

So there are people that care about devolution despite what some are saying.

[ronaldo7]

Sure they have.

Number of new @theSNP members since noon today is now 1,500...and rising. Welcome to all. If you haven’t signed up yet, you can do so here https://t.co/3oQxCOgvmI

[ronaldo7]

You know and I know that you made that up.

The Bain principle is funny, another made-up nationalist thing to try and create and stoke difference. Which is why you only ever hear Nats mentioning it. It’s not a principle, that term gives it some sort of authority or legitimacy it simply doesn’t have.

There are plenty of examples of SNP and Labour politicians voting together at all levels of government.

But it doesn’t create resentment if you admit that, does it?

And lets be honest, nationalism relies on resentment, it’s the fuel you need to get your majority.

I sat through it two nights ago, and watched it. I also watched Pmqs yesterday, unlike you.

The made up stuff seems to be coming from you and 1ds.

A simple look on Twitter, and you'll find the first minister, confirming the new arrivals to the SNP.

It's as a lie though eh.

I'll leave you to fight you're battles back in the 30's.

[JeMeSouviens]

You know and I know that you made that up.

The Bain principle is funny, another made-up nationalist thing to try and create and stoke difference. Which is why you only ever hear Nats mentioning it. It’s not a principle, that term gives it some sort of authority or legitimacy it simply doesn’t have.

There are plenty of examples of SNP and Labour politicians voting together at all levels of government.

But it doesn’t create resentment if you admit that, does it?

And lets be honest, nationalism relies on resentment, it’s the fuel you need to get your majority.

Are you seriously attempting to contend that the Labour tribe has any less resentment for its counterpart than the SNP tribe?

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc

I've given the answer (I think a couple of times). It's a basic power struggle. Both sides say that repatriated powers in devolved competencies should mainly go to Holyrood with certain exceptions where agreed UK frameworks make sense. The difference is the UK wants to impose them, the Scot gov wants to agree them.

But of course you already knew that ... :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc

Oh, forgot to say. This is plain wrong. The financial convergence rules affect membership of the Eurozone, not the EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6829e820-6f25-11e8-85ce-4c0c3fdda365

If the person behind 'the vow' now believes an independent Scotland is the best way forward what hope has the no campaign got?

[Moulin Yarns]

Hearing there could be an emergency debate on Withdrawal Bill and devolution next Monday as well as Urgent Statement today

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?

Arbitrary yes, meaningless no. You can't look around the world and seriously suggest that national identity doesn't exist or affect things? Christ, it's the long and short of Brexit for starters.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6829e820-6f25-11e8-85ce-4c0c3fdda365

If the person behind 'the vow' now believes an independent Scotland is the best way forward what hope has the no campaign got?

To be fair, he was paid to be behind the vow, but still quite a jaw dropping moment.

[ronaldo7]

Hearing there could be an emergency debate on Withdrawal Bill and devolution next Monday as well as Urgent Statement today

I've also heard someone is trying to fix a lock, whilst horses are bolting over the Westminster lawns.

[ronaldo7]

Arbitrary yes, meaningless no. You can't look around the world and seriously suggest that national identity doesn't exist or affect things? Christ, it's the long and short of Brexit for starters.

The teams at the world cup will no longer be mentioned by country, they'll just be groups of men, having a kick about.

All flags will be banned, nobody will win, as it's the taking part that matters. 😮

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6829e820-6f25-11e8-85ce-4c0c3fdda365

If the person behind 'the vow' now believes an independent Scotland is the best way forward what hope has the no campaign got?

An you copy and paste please. It’s a paid website?

Cheers

J

[G B Young]

It was pretty lame, let’s be honest.

PMQs is PMQs and is the opportunity for Parliament to try and hold the Prime Minister to account. There is no way that should be aborted because Blackford wants an immediate vote.

Blackford could have requested an emergency debate to follow PMQs and almost certainly would have got it, but instead we get a publicity stunt, much like the post-election stuff with the clapping and sitting in the official Opposition spaces. Stuff that makes the TV news but glosses over a lack of policy detail.

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done the nats, so proud of them :agree::thumbsup: the only political party in Scotland that sticks up for Scotland...FACT and end of

[JeMeSouviens]

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

Most people I know that I've spoken to on the subject (both Yes and No on Indy) would gladly see Brexit fail. I'd personally be delighted to see the UK continue as an EU member even though I think it would put Indy off for a few years at least.

[Northernhibee]

Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?

You see, the strange thing is that if Brexit does go ahead and Scotland could get assurances that they could re-enter the EU within a short term time scale I'd genuinely be more likely to vote yes on a second referendum as it's economic suicide to leave the EU in the way that we're seeming to do. My job like thousands of others would be heavily impacted by the lack of frictionless trade between borders on the continent. I actually campaigned for the no vote first time around as I felt that the left of centre case was stronger to remain in the UK than to leave.

However the way that the SNP and quite frankly the "Yes" campaign held themselves the first time around would make it a very difficult thing for me to do and may just even put me off the whole idea. I find the victim mantra being carried out frankly embarrassing and the walkout in PMQ's yesterday was childish and petulant and certainly doesn't represent their constituents. It's "I'm taking my ball home with me, nyah nyah" territory.

Whether it's article 50 being revoked or an independent Scotland, if there was to be a second referendum I'd be voting for the side that would more likely see us in the European Union, with my fingers crossed that a yes vote would do to the SNP what the Brexit referendum did to UKIP.

[WeeRussell]

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

[JeMeSouviens]

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

To be fair, GBY is actually a Tory so he's hardly going to complain about any of that. :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

To be fair, GBY is actually a Tory so he's hardly going to complain about any of that. :greengrin

haha I know (I mean it's fairly obvious!), I guess it was just a general rant :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

It kind of sums up folk like GB, when they stay silent when the bedroom tax, disability cuts, and the rape clause are introduced by the party he supports, he then gets all hot under the collar when people want a say on the devolution settlement.

[snooky]

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

[Mr Grieves]

Number of new @theSNP members since noon today is now 1,500...and rising. Welcome to all. If you haven’t signed up yet, you can do so here https://t.co/3oQxCOgvmI

Now 5000 new members. That was some publicity stunt!

[JeMeSouviens]

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

[Moulin Yarns]

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

The bit in bold. A lot of those, in my experience, have connections to the armed forces. Others are to be found in processions in a months time.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It kind of sums up folk like GB, when they stay silent when the bedroom tax, disability cuts, and the rape clause are introduced by the party he supports, he then gets all hot under the collar when people want a say on the devolution settlement.


indeed, it's Lame, Pitiful, and Embarrassing

[JeMeSouviens]

The bit in bold. A lot of those, in my experience, have connections to the armed forces. Others are to be found in processions in a months time.

Yep, both of those. Plus there are some like my own Mother who grew up in WW2 or its aftermath when I think there was a genuine "all in this together" Britishness.

[ronaldo7]

Now 5000 new members. That was some publicity stunt!

I heard her. Maybe some on here need to put their hearing aids in. 😂

[WeeRussell]

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

I'm not directing this at anyone on here but going by people I know, I think there is a significant number of people who took the No stance from an early stage, without being able to present a reason (you know the "Trust me it just won't work" type) and will now not backtrack on that.

I've seen a few move over in light of changing circumstances, but only a few. As I say, some just use the SNP/Nationlist jibes as their get-out as so many of the other pedalled arguments are dying out... often at the hands of those who created the reasons in the first place :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong - plenty of people have their reasons.. I just think there's also a big number of those who do not.

[snooky]

Yep, both of those. Plus there are some like my own Mother who grew up in WW2 or its aftermath when I think there was a genuine "all in this together" Britishness.

That's fair enough. I can fully understand her feeling that way. What annoys me about the whole Indy thing is the wide idea that we would break away from the rest of the UK in everything. The reality, IMO, is that nothing much would change (ignoring the Brexit problem for a minute). Life would go an more or less the way it is now. The only difference would be our finances and the distribution of them would be spread out differently. We would certainly be treated with a lot more respect from WM than we are just now for sure.

This is definitely not an ideal time for Indy2 however, after yesterday's performance in the HoC, I think the government are actually forcing the Indy movement's hand (whether intentionally or not, I don't know).

Yesterday they made it very plain that they regard Scotland as servile and insignificant. If we have Indy2 and lose, what will we have lost? We'll still be treated as servile and insignificant. If we win................????

[Scotty Leither]

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

Well I've joined the SNP today because of Brexit as I'm angry at potentially losing my EU citizenship, all because of a p1ssing contest between Johnson and Cameron. I certainly don't want to "see 'it' dragged over the line".

Does that count as gaining traction?

[WeeRussell]

Well I've joined the SNP today because of Brexit as I'm angry at potentially losing my EU citizenship, all because of a p1ssing contest between Johnson and Cameron. I certainly don't want to "see 'it' dragged over the line".

Does that count as gaining traction?

Welcome aboard.. and to the forum :aok:

[Slavers]

That's fair enough. I can fully understand her feeling that way. What annoys me about the whole Indy thing is the wide idea that we would break away from the rest of the UK in everything. The reality, IMO, is that nothing much would change (ignoring the Brexit problem for a minute). Life would go an more or less the way it is now. The only difference would be our finances and the distribution of them would be spread out differently. We would certainly be treated with a lot more respect from WM than we are just now for sure.

This is definitely not an ideal time for Indy2 however, after yesterday's performance in the HoC, I think the government are actually forcing the Indy movement's hand (whether intentionally or not, I don't know).

Yesterday they made it very plain that they regard Scotland as servile and insignificant. If we have Indy2 and lose, what will we have lost? We'll still be treated as servile and insignificant. If we win................????

Decades of austerity?
A divided nation?
Currency Issues?
No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU?
Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation.
No longer a member or Nato
huge debts with no lender of last resort.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU.

Still least that's the English telt

[RyeSloan]

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

It’s really quite simple. Indy or not there is no concept of a nation getting the government it wants...there will still be a large chunk of voters who would have voted for the party that is not in power.

So of I was a Labour voter and the SNP get into power nothing changes...I have a government in charge that has been forced on me by ‘others’.

I would suggest Quebec might also qualify on the ‘rejected a free offer’ camp. It’s also rather disingenuous to suggest Indy is a free offer...as the growth commission has shown there are very significant hurdles, risks and dangers associated with it and many folk have simply decided it’s, on the balance of probabilities, is just not worth it.

Finally the loathing might come from the fact, repeated ad-nauseam, that the very people it’s pertaining to represent have already voted on it and said No?

[Moulin Yarns]

Decades of austerity?
A divided nation?
Currency Issues?
No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU?
Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation.
No longer a member or Nato
huge debts with no lender of last resort.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU.

Still least that's the English telt

But apart from that what has Westminster ever done for us? :wink:

[Slavers]

But apart from that what has Westminster ever done for us? :wink:

Well why would we want to put ourselves through the decades of hardship that NONE of the nationalist want to discuss.

[One Day Soon]

I see yer Da's making up membership numbers again.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.mix96.co.uk/news/national/2607600/snp-membership-swells-after-mps-mass-walkout-in-westminster/

SNP membership has risen by over 5,000 in the 24-hours following a mass-walkout by its MPs in parliament, Sky News has learned.


great stuff, hopefully more walk-outs planned :thumbsup:



well done the 35

[WeeRussell]

Decades of austerity? As opposed to what?

A divided nation? As opposed to what?

Currency Issues? Is it 2014 again?

No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU? Aye?

Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation. haha using one of the reasons we don't want to be part of what's going on right now (intolerance towards immigrants) won't wash.

Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU. Ahhh.. you prefer us to beg the Tories and go on being ignored?

Still least that's the English telt - Sums up your argument perfectly.

[WeeRussell]

But apart from that what has Westminster ever done for us? :wink:

:aok:

[snooky]

It’s really quite simple. Indy or not there is no concept of a nation getting the government it wants...there will still be a large chunk of voters who would have voted for the party that is not in power.

So of I was a Labour voter and the SNP get into power nothing changes...I have a government in charge that has been forced on me by ‘others’.

I would suggest Quebec might also qualify on the ‘rejected a free offer’ camp. It’s also rather disingenuous to suggest Indy is a free offer...as the growth commission has shown there are very significant hurdles, risks and dangers associated with it and many folk have simply decided it’s, on the balance of probabilities, is just not worth it.

Finally the loathing might come from the fact, repeated ad-nauseam, that the very people it’s pertaining to represent have already voted on it and said No?

Quebec's situation is different to ours. For one thing, it's a Province not a country. Quebec get's more than it's fair share of funding from Canadian Government. Even though Quebec has less than a quarter of the population of Canada, national signs/instructions/official forms, etc. are written in French and English. (That's except in Quebec where signs have to be in French only :rolleyes: - I'm assuming that's still the case). Their vote for independence in 1995 was 51/49 for remaining in Canada. A chunk of the NO vote were from the many Quebec francophones who are bilingual and work for the government in Ottawa, Ontario.
The indy issues in Quebec (as with Catalonia) are somewhat different to Scotland and shouldn't really be compared unless you're using a very broad brush.
I should add, there are many pockets of francophones in Canada outwith Quebec, mostly in New Brunswick.

[Slavers]

Decades of austerity? As opposed to what?

A divided nation? As opposed to what?

Currency Issues? Is it 2014 again?

No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU? Aye?

Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation. haha using one of the reasons we don't want to be part of what's going on right now (intolerance towards immigrants) won't wash.

Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU. Ahhh.. you prefer us to beg the Tories and go on being ignored?

Still least that's the English telt - Sums up your argument perfectly.

Remember I voted No and that argument won the debate and vote in Indyref 1. You need to convince me about independence your reply is just more SNP nonsense.

[speedy_gonzales]

Quebec's situation is different to ours. For one thing, it's a Province not a country.

Whilst you are entirely correct, Joanne Cherry QC and MP recently compared the wish for Scotland to have its own immigration policy as opposed to a UK policy, similar to Quebec and Canada. She felt it perfectly acceptable to compare a province with a country for her argument.

[JeMeSouviens]

Whilst you are entirely correct, Joanne Cherry QC and MP recently compared the wish for Scotland to have its own immigration policy as opposed to a UK policy, similar to Quebec and Canada. She felt it perfectly acceptable to compare a province with a country for her argument.

Whatever about the history, in practical terms, Quebec, as a federal state, is considerably more powerful than Scotland, a devolved region within a unitary state.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.mix96.co.uk/news/national/2607600/snp-membership-swells-after-mps-mass-walkout-in-westminster/

SNP membership has risen by over 5,000 in the 24-hours following a mass-walkout by its MPs in parliament, Sky News has learned.


great stuff, hopefully more walk-outs planned :thumbsup:



well done the 35

I wonder if those disputing the numbers believe Hibs, when they say we've shifted 12.5k seasons, or just shout, Yer da. 😉

Poor wee souls. 😂

[speedy_gonzales]

Whatever about the history, in practical terms, Quebec, as a federal state, is considerably more powerful than Scotland, a devolved region within a unitary state.

It may well be, my post was only highlighting that if it's acceptable to compare Scotland to Quebec for one argument then it's only fair that others can also use them for comparisons.

[snooky]

It may well be, my post was only highlighting that if it's acceptable to compare Scotland to Quebec for one argument then it's only fair that others can also use them for comparisons.

That's what I meant when I said 'a very broad brush'. There are some similarities but there a lots of differences as well.
Like saying an apple, like an orange, is a fruit. Yes, but they're not the same.

[WeeRussell]

Remember I voted No and that argument won the debate and vote in Indyref 1. You need to convince me about independence your reply is just more SNP nonsense.

As strong as I think my side of the argument is, I think I’d have my work cut-out persuading someone, who thinks the world is being taken over by a cult led by satan, to change from sympathising with the tories to supporting independence.

I would ask though, which parts of austerity under the tories, not being in the EU, already being divided, and any of the rest of the above which I can’t recall from the top of my head (and can’t see on my mobile phone while typing) is just “snp nonsense”?

[CropleyWasGod]

As strong as I think my side of the argument is, I think I’d have my work cut-out persuading someone, who thinks the world is being taken over by a cult led by satin, to change from sympathising with the tories to supporting independence.

I would ask though, which parts of austerity under the tories, not being in the EU, already being divided, and any of the rest of the above which I can’t recall from the top of my head (and can’t see on my mobile phone while typing) is just “snp nonsense”?

That would indeed be a material change....

[WeeRussell]

That would indeed be a material change....

Haha very good ;)

Seen it as soon as I hit send. Now to ‘edit’ using a phone!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Haha very good ;)

Seen it as soon as I hit send. Now to ‘edit’ using a phone!!!

Don't. Hopefully, there will be some decent puns along to add to this...um.... thread. :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

Don't. Hopefully, there will be some decent puns along to add to this...um.... thread. :greengrin

Hahaha.. stop.

Or maybe one more..

[Moulin Yarns]

That would indeed be a material change....

The devil is in the detail.

[Moulin Yarns]

Depends how we cut our cloth

[One Day Soon]

Corbyn has an absolute ****load of members now - and he's going nowhere fast.

So, '5,000' new members - good luck with that.

[One Day Soon]

Darned annoying.

[snooky]

That would indeed be a material change....

(Hopefully not starting a pun-a-thon with this)....

A-ha, I cottoned on to that right away .

[WeeRussell]

This is why puns should be banned. Everyone is going to have to unravel these posts to get back on topic.

[One Day Soon]

This is why puns should be banned. Everyone is going to have to unravel these posts to get back on topic.

It's really needled you hasn't it?

[WeeRussell]

It's really needled you hasn't it?

Eye. That’s my point.

[One Day Soon]

That’s my point.

I know, I only just cottoned on.

[WeeRussell]

I know, I only just cottoned on.

You’ve genuinely got me in stitches with this patter.

[One Day Soon]

You’ve genuinely got me in stitches with this patter.

Aye well, your flannel's not too bad either.

[johnbc70]

If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past

What if I voted Greens in an independent Scotland, would I get a Green government, the one I wanted?

[WeeRussell]

What if I voted Greens in an independent Scotland, would I get a Green government, the one I wanted?

Not necessarily. We don’t all get individual governments based on our votes.

I suspect you knew that already though.

[johnbc70]

Not necessarily. We don’t all get individual governments based on our votes.

I suspect you knew that already though.

Yes I did, so I am still getting a government forced on me.

[jonty]

Ah, the good old, all-inclusive tories, telling Scottish MPs to contemplate suicide if they want their voices heard.


https://youtu.be/dalqOZW8u9o


During the debate SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford asked: "Mr Speaker, what options are available to us in this house to ensure that the Government understands real concern among people in Scotland at this unprecedented power grab, and how can we make sure that our voices are heard?"

In response, an MP can be heard shouting "suicide" back at Robertson.


disgusting.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you seriously attempting to contend that the Labour tribe has any less resentment for its counterpart than the SNP tribe?

Am I picking you up right - you're saying Labour supporteres and SNP supporters dislike each other in equal measures? I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases but the point I'm making is one value base is derived from differentiation and accusations of oppression and the other value base is more rooted in internationalism. Having said that, clearly a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and not every SNP supporter wants to blame the English for everything.


I've given the answer (I think a couple of times). It's a basic power struggle. Both sides say that repatriated powers in devolved competencies should mainly go to Holyrood with certain exceptions where agreed UK frameworks make sense. The difference is the UK wants to impose them, the Scot gov wants to agree them.

But of course you already knew that ... :rolleyes:

That's not the point I was making to RyeSloan. It was highlighting that if SNP is keen on self-determination, why does it want to continue being part of a union that would insist it followed its directives and legislation?


Oh, forgot to say. This is plain wrong. The financial convergence rules affect membership of the Eurozone, not the EU.

EU admissions criteria state that candidate demonstrate adherence to the aims of monetary and economic union, and everyone in the EU but not the Eurozone is obliged to join the Eurozone when they meet the criteria, bar Denmark and the UK IIRC. To be honest, if Scotland joined the EU as a member state I would probably want us using the Euro if possible.

[Hibrandenburg]

The bit in bold. A lot of those, in my experience, have connections to the armed forces. Others are to be found in processions in a months time.

I think myself and at least one other prominent supporter of independence on here kinda contradict that particular generalisation. In fact I'm toiling to think of another Scottish ex military mate who confirms your cliche. :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

That's fair enough. I can fully understand her feeling that way. What annoys me about the whole Indy thing is the wide idea that we would break away from the rest of the UK in everything. The reality, IMO, is that nothing much would change (ignoring the Brexit problem for a minute). Life would go an more or less the way it is now. The only difference would be our finances and the distribution of them would be spread out differently. We would certainly be treated with a lot more respect from WM than we are just now for sure.

This is definitely not an ideal time for Indy2 however, after yesterday's performance in the HoC, I think the government are actually forcing the Indy movement's hand (whether intentionally or not, I don't know).

Yesterday they made it very plain that they regard Scotland as servile and insignificant. If we have Indy2 and lose, what will we have lost? We'll still be treated as servile and insignificant. If we win................????

Decades of austerity?
A divided nation?
Currency Issues?
No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU?
Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation.
No longer a member or Nato
huge debts with no lender of last resort.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU.

Still least that's the English telt

What?!? As opposed to the decade of Austerity we have just had?

BTW the NATO one is utter tripe. It’s an area I know a bit about NATO will not be kicking Scotland out. We are the Southern part of the Greenland, Iceland, Scotland gap. We occupy far too important a strategic position.

Its one of the reasons Iceland is in the NORTH Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

[G B Young]

Most people I know that I've spoken to on the subject (both Yes and No on Indy) would gladly see Brexit fail. I'd personally be delighted to see the UK continue as an EU member even though I think it would put Indy off for a few years at least.

I imagine it depends on how interested in politics those you speak with are when it comes to something as mind-numbing as Brexit. I'm probably generalising, but I'd suggest a large majority of the Scottish population and that of the UK at large have long become bored to the back teeth with it and have simply lost interest. That's certainly where I'm at with it, despite having voted to remain in the EU and feeling genuinely shocked at the time that the Yes vote held sway two years ago.

It's undoubtedly a source of major frustration to the SNP that the post-Brexit uprising they anticipated in Scotland never materialised to any significant degree, hence this ongoing attempt to whip up some semblance of Scottish rage about the supposed 'power grab' (a phrase now almost as tiresome as 'hard Brexit cliff edge'). Unlike the more mature approach of the Welsh government, it's little more than a childish refusal to grant consent under any circumstance to the Brexit bill in the hope it will spark some sort of shift in those stubborn polling figures which show no change in the Scottish electorate's desire for independence. As far as I can see, the powers supposedly being 'taken away' were never under Scottish parliamentary control in the first place so this faux outrage is based on a manufactured grievance designed only to keep the independence fires flickering.

Like it or not, a majority of the UK electorate (including a not insignificant minority of just under 40% of the Scottish electorate which included a number of SNP supporters) exercised their democratic right to vote for a departure from the EU, but as with the 2014 independence referendum the SNP seem incapable of comprehending that their view of the world isn't shared by everyone.

[Bristolhibby]

Losing a battle dosent mean you’ve lost the war.

If that were the case there would be one election. Then we would all shut up shop for the rest of eternity.

J

[One Day Soon]

Losing a battle dosent mean you’ve lost the war.

If that were the case there would be one election. Then we would all shut up shop for the rest of eternity.

J


This is true, though there are probably a significant number of people right now who would happily settle for a moratorium on elections and referendums for the next five years or so...

[grunt]

This is true, though there are probably a significant number of people right now who would happily settle for a moratorium on elections and referendums for the next five years or so...

That’s possibly because they don’t realise the impact Brexit will have on their lives.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

That’s possibly because they don’t realise the impact Brexit will have on their lives.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or maybe they do but they're also pretty sick of ***** politics and ***** politicians. :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

I think myself and at least one other prominent supporter of independence on here kinda contradict that particular generalisation. In fact I'm toiling to think of another Scottish ex military mate who confirms your cliche. :greengrin

I realised it was a generalisation and I know some on both sides. Pity the yes supporters now live in Spain.

[One Day Soon]

I realised it was a generalisation and I know some on both sides. Pity the yes supporters now live in Spain.


As a No voter you won't find me on too many of the 12th July marches you alluded to...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As a No voter you won't find me on too many of the 12th July marches you alluded to...

I daresay there aren't many in these parts..😂

Bit no doubt it is a factor in some of the less enlightended parts of Scotland...And god, can you imagine the level of political discussion between those bowler hat wearing noel-hunts across west Lothian and Ayrshire? It will make us look like a Mensa convention!

[One Day Soon]

I daresay there aren't many in these parts..😂

Bit no doubt it is a factor in some of the less enlightended parts of Scotland...And god, can you imagine the level of political discussion between those bowler hat wearing noel-hunts across west Lothian and Ayrshire? It will make us look like a Mensa convention!


I was brought up a Catholic in a mixed marriage where the immediate background of the two families was Roman Catholic and Free Church of Scotland (both sides regular attenders). Doctrinally allergic to one another but in everyday terms never a harsh word spoken or a significant difference seen.

The bowler hatters of Ayrshire and West Lothian are vestigial fossils running on folk memory autopilot. They could no more explain meaningful religious differences than they could explain structural deficit, currency dependency or EU membership requirements. They're 'No' for a reason, but not necessarily a good one. Big mistake to assume that they are in any way representative of our No majority.

Are you suggesting we're less than the apogee of refined and informed debate? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I was brought up a Catholic in a mixed marriage where the immediate background of the two families was Roman Catholic and Free Church of Scotland (both sides regular attenders). Doctrinally allergic to one another but in everyday terms never a harsh word spoken or a significant difference seen.

The bowler hatters of Ayrshire and West Lothian are vestigial fossils running on folk memory autopilot. They could no more explain meaningful religious differences than they could explain structural deficit, currency dependency or EU membership requirements. They're 'No' for a reason, but not necessarily a good one. Big mistake to assume that they are in any way representative of our No majority.

Are you suggesting we're less than the apogee of refined and informed debate? :greengrin

Wouldn't it be brilliant if we could get the Huns to break into a chorus of "sing while you're transubstantiating!"

And it's also a mistake to discount any of the various factions in either Yes or No camp. There might not be that many left in the hardline Orange faction but then again, there probably wouldn't have been a majority against independence without them.

[JeMeSouviens]

Am I picking you up right - you're saying Labour supporteres and SNP supporters dislike each other in equal measures? I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases but the point I'm making is one value base is derived from differentiation and accusations of oppression and the other value base is more rooted in internationalism. Having said that, clearly a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and not every SNP supporter wants to blame the English for everything.


Ok, I picked you up wrong. I don't want to blame the English for anything. I blame the people of Scotland for outsourcing governing we should be doing ourselves and for becoming reliant on a public funding formula that's patently unfair to the detriment of others.



That's not the point I was making to RyeSloan. It was highlighting that if SNP is keen on self-determination, why does it want to continue being part of a union that would insist it followed its directives and legislation?


It seems fairly straightforward to me. Some things are best agreed at a supranational level. The EU is (to me) a much better compromise for Scotland than the UK.

Other theoretical compromise scenarios that might make as much or even more sense: a subsidiarity style Europe of powerful regions, a federal UK in the EU etc will never happen in my lifetime. We now only have a practical choice of devolved Scotland in Brexit UK or Indy Scotland in EU.



EU admissions criteria state that candidate demonstrate adherence to the aims of monetary and economic union, and everyone in the EU but not the Eurozone is obliged to join the Eurozone when they meet the criteria, bar Denmark and the UK IIRC. To be honest, if Scotland joined the EU as a member state I would probably want us using the Euro if possible.

Technically you're correct, but for EU accession, it's couched in woolly terms of aspiration and practically there's no way to make a country join the Euro if it doesn't want to (Sweden has been theoretically committed to join the Euro for over 20 years). If it does want to, then strict convergence criteria apply (although lots of them were waived for the original founding members which stored up trouble).

[snooky]

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/06/12/this-is-what-contempt-looks-like/

Even wee dugs ken what's goin' on. :coffee:

[JeMeSouviens]

Quite a nat-friendly front page from the Vowmeisters ... :hmmm:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DftisyEWkAAUQAg.jpg:large

[One Day Soon]

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/06/12/this-is-what-contempt-looks-like/

Even wee dugs ken what's goin' on. :coffee:


Wee dugs are the antithesis of kennin' what's goin' on - especially ginger wans.

[snooky]

Wee dugs are the antithesis of kennin' what's goin' on - especially ginger wans.

We all get accused of barking up the wrong tree, I suppose.
Each to his own. :greengrin

[snooky]

Quite a nat-friendly front page from the Vowmeisters ... :hmmm:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DftisyEWkAAUQAg.jpg:large

That worries me, TBH. Just the fact that it can be interpreted as nat-friendly.
Keeping friends close & enemies closer? :whistle:

[Northernhibee]

Am I picking you up right - you're saying Labour supporteres and SNP supporters dislike each other in equal measures? I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases but the point I'm making is one value base is derived from differentiation and accusations of oppression and the other value base is more rooted in internationalism. Having said that, clearly a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and not every SNP supporter wants to blame the English for everything

Actually, there was only 1% of difference between the share of Brexit vote within Labour and the SNP. 37% to 36%.

[Moulin Yarns]

Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

the noes Have it

majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

We're all doomed I tell ye

[ronaldo7]

Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

the noes Have it

majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

We're all doomed I tell ye

Labour MP's voted with the Tories, or abstained again?

[JeMeSouviens]

Warned by who?

And just British made products or services as well?

And if the products are made in the U.K. but by European owned companies are they to be warned not to buy these as well?

And if this is true are you saying that Airbus has been warned to make planes without wing and fuel systems?

In other words this is bollox isn’t it?

Saw this and thought of you ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact

[danhibees1875]

Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

the noes Have it

majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

We're all doomed I tell ye

Sorry if this a dense question, MPs have voted to not have a vote on the final deal?

What is the reasoning for that?

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry if this a dense question, MPs have voted to not have a vote on the final deal?

What is the reasoning for that?

The answer is impenetrable, let alone dense!

- Originally the government wanted no vote in parliament on the deal at all, the government would decide.

- Under pressure they conceded a vote, but the vote would be take it or leave it, ie. accept the deal or leave with no deal.

- this was amended by the Lords to accept the deal or direct the government to go and negotiate another one

- this was amended by the Commons to accept the deal or make a more or less meaningless statement

- this was ameneded again by the Lords to accept the deal or make a statement which could be amended by the Commons to turn into a direction to the government

- this was amended again (finally) to accept the deal or make a statement which might be amendable depending on what the speaker thinks


(I think)

The reasoning behind the government position is that if the EU knows parliament won't allow a crash out with no deal, they have every incentive to drive as hard a bargain as possible, hoping the UK will eventually have to throw the towel in and accept it or give up on Brexit and just remain after all.

(again, I think)

[danhibees1875]

The answer is impenetrable, let alone dense!

- Originally the government wanted no vote in parliament on the deal at all, the government would decide.

- Under pressure they conceded a vote, but the vote would be take it or leave it, ie. accept the deal or leave with no deal.

- this was amended by the Lords to accept the deal or direct the government to go and negotiate another one

- this was amended by the Commons to accept the deal or make a more or less meaningless statement

- this was ameneded again by the Lords to accept the deal or make a statement which could be amended by the Commons to turn into a direction to the government

- this was amended again (finally) to accept the deal or make a statement which might be amendable depending on what the speaker thinks


(I think)

The reasoning behind the government position is that if the EU knows parliament won't allow a crash out with no deal, they have every incentive to drive as hard a bargain as possible, hoping the UK will eventually have to throw the towel in and accept it or give up on Brexit and just remain after all.

(again, I think)

:dizzy:

Thanks. I can see the reasoning behind it now. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

Saw this and thought of you ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact

Sure. And the likelihood of a no deal Brexit?

No denial from me that a no deal Brexit will impact hard, I just think that it’s highly unlikely.

[grunt]

Sure. And the likelihood of a no deal Brexit?

No denial from me that a no deal Brexit will impact hard, I just think that it’s highly unlikely.

“It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European court of justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain.”

Even a “deal” will have a negative effect. This is madness.

[Billy Whizz]

As someone who doesn’t follow politics closely. Seen coverage of this march today. Is their a process where they can ask for another vote?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44586638

[Colr]

“**** business” according the uberlugner de Pfeffel.

[grunt]

“**** business” according the uberlugner de Pfeffel.

The first honest statement he's made in many, many years.

[Bristolhibby]

As someone who doesn’t follow politics closely. Seen coverage of this march today. Is their a process where they can ask for another vote?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44586638

Yes. When there are more MPs vote that will for one than won’t.

Not quite there yet.

J

[Colr]

Quite a big story if it plays out but not much on BBC on it

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash