Brexit - what will happen next

[Ryan91]

Note that David Davis has come out this morning and had said that the government has not done any impact assessment on what Brexit will do to the Economy.

Unreal.

[hibsbollah]

Note that David Davis has come out this morning and had said that the government has not done any impact assessment on what Brexit will do to the Economy.

Unreal.

It's becoming more and more obvious that two games are being played; Barnier trying to find out the Brits negotiating position, and the Brits basing all their statements in terms of power games within the Conservative Party.

[lord bunberry]

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/938387738998530054/video/1
sums things up for me.

[RyeSloan]

Note that David Davis has come out this morning and had said that the government has not done any impact assessment on what Brexit will do to the Economy.

Unreal.

Without any inclination of the trade deal or transition arrangements (remember the EU won't start talks on that until they have the divorce money agreed) just what 'impact assessment' can be completed?

To model an outcome you need at least some parameters to apply or you end up making wild and inaccurate 'assessments' be that good or bad.

Despite all the expected noise and bluster, brinkmanship and hand wringing the expectation still has to be that both sides will come to some sort of semi sensible and sane agreement that will limit economic impacts to both parties.

With that in mind I see little value in some economists plugging fantasy figures into a made up model to come up with some numbers that are sure to be wrong anyway (see Carney's 'emergency' rate cut as for why that doesn't really work)

[Future17]

Without any inclination of the trade deal or transition arrangements (remember the EU won't start talks on that until they have the divorce money agreed) just what 'impact assessment' can be completed?

To model an outcome you need at least some parameters to apply or you end up making wild and inaccurate 'assessments' be that good or bad.

Despite all the expected noise and bluster, brinkmanship and hand wringing the expectation still has to be that both sides will come to some sort of semi sensible and sane agreement that will limit economic impacts to both parties.

With that in mind I see little value in some economists plugging fantasy figures into a made up model to come up with some numbers that are sure to be wrong anyway (see Carney's 'emergency' rate cut as for why that doesn't really work)

I would have thought part of deciding what represents a "good" deal for Britain would be assessing the impact of that deal. It would make sense to have considered (at least) the most likely permutations before agreeing to anything.

Whether or not the Government, particularly in its current state, would want any such assessments being made public is another question.

[RyeSloan]

I would have thought part of deciding what represents a "good" deal for Britain would be assessing the impact of that deal. It would make sense to have considered (at least) the most likely permutations before agreeing to anything.

Whether or not the Government, particularly in its current state, would want any such assessments being made public is another question.

True and to some degree I agree [emoji16]

But the concept of being able to plug in certain agreements to get a quantifiable impact on the wider economy can surely only be done on a broad brush approach.

The government have stated they have done sectorial analysis which will highlight those sectors that have a bigger or lesser dependence on the current arrangements, that data should be good enough to inform any deal discussions.

However it's a total minefield. Agriculture clearly has a huge reliance on the EU but it can be argued that this makes it highly inefficient and subsidy dependent. Removing such subsidies might cause a lot of short term pain in the industry itself but ultimately drive consolidation and efficiency that boosts its economic impact. Multiply that across each and every EU rule, regulation and trade agreement and you get something that really can't be measured accurately by any model ever no matter one based on so many current unknowns.

[weecounty hibby]

Just watched a programme on the channel tunnel. An English trucker said that Brexit would be a good thing as foreign truckers would be held in customs for up to a day. He didn't seem to realise that is exactly what will happen to him when he goes in the other direction!!! Blinkered doesn't begin to describe some of these people.

[Bristolhibby]

Just watched a programme on the channel tunnel. An English trucker said that Brexit would be a good thing as foreign truckers would be held in customs for up to a day. He didn't seem to realise that is exactly what will happen to him when he goes in the other direction!!! Blinkered doesn't begin to describe some of these people.

Morons is another word.

J

[hibsbollah]

Note that David Davis has come out this morning and had said that the government has not done any impact assessment on what Brexit will do to the Economy.

Unreal.

What's Unreal is the Commons committee has voted (or at least the Tory and DUP members have) that David Davis is not in contempt. He's systematically lied, six times in a year, that 58 sectoral impact assessments were being done. In fact, just in October, he said they were all completed. Yesterday it turns out, under cross examination, that no such things took place. It's like the kid who claims to have done his homework every night and then owns up the day before the exam. How did he think he was going to get away with it? How may other things have just been made up as he goes along? And how is our politics in such a state where such brazen lying is no longer an automatic resignation issue? And what's happened to Boris? He's just disappeared.

Edit... Boris pops up, making a speech in defence of British foreign policy and making Saudi out to be the victims in Yemen.

[lord bunberry]

What's Unreal is the Commons committee has voted (or at least the Tory and DUP members have) that David Davis is not in contempt. He's systematically lied, six times in a year, that 58 sectoral impact assessments were being done. In fact, just in October, he said they were all completed. Yesterday it turns out, under cross examination, that no such things took place. It's like the kid who claims to have done his homework every night and then owns up the day before the exam. How did he think he was going to get away with it? How may other things have just been made up as he goes along? And how is our politics in such a state where such brazen lying is no longer an automatic resignation issue? And what's happened to Boris? He's just disappeared.

Edit... Boris pops up, making a speech in defence of British foreign policy and making Saudi out to be the victims in Yemen.
I suspect the studies have been done, but publishing the findings would be more damaging than being called a liar.

[HappyAsHellas]

I suspect the studies have been done, but publishing the findings would be more damaging than being called a liar.

Apparently the studies run to some 800 pages of which our esteemed negotiator read 2 chapters.

To be fair it would probably be a boring read.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Apparently the studies run to some 800 pages of which our esteemed negotiator read 2 chapters.

To be fair it would probably be a boring read.

Do they really need 800 pages when it could be summed up in a few words: 'The economy is ****ed'.

[wpj]

What's Unreal is the Commons committee has voted (or at least the Tory and DUP members have) that David Davis is not in contempt. He's systematically lied, six times in a year, that 58 sectoral impact assessments were being done. In fact, just in October, he said they were all completed. Yesterday it turns out, under cross examination, that no such things took place. It's like the kid who claims to have done his homework every night and then owns up the day before the exam. How did he think he was going to get away with it? How may other things have just been made up as he goes along? And how is our politics in such a state where such brazen lying is no longer an automatic resignation issue? And what's happened to Boris? He's just disappeared.

Edit... Boris pops up, making a speech in defence of British foreign policy and making Saudi out to be the victims in Yemen.

Exactly my feelings on the matter, DD lied and is not being held accountable for the lies. It is unreal what the MPs are getting away with at the moment, DD and Boris would have been sacked in most previous governments if their "leader" had any balls but May has proved time and time again she is a weak leader. Don't get me started on that Rees Mog

https://me.me/i/im-jacob-rees-mogg-conservative-mp-for-payoff-north-east-somerset-5805223

[Hibrandenburg]

Just listened to Farage being outraged at the deal which will give EU citizens living in the UK more rights than UK citizens. You can't make **** like this up. UK citizens would have the same rights as EU citizens if you hadn't orchestrated Brexit you plonker.

[Colr]

Just listened to Farage being outraged at the deal which will give EU citizens living in the UK more rights than UK citizens. You can't make **** like this up. UK citizens would have the same rights as EU citizens if you hadn't orchestrated Brexit you plonker.

Michael Gove argues that when we are free to make our own legislation animals will have better and more rights so why not people?

Farage use to be liberal but is turning into a pound shop Mussolini.

[Hibrandenburg]

Farage use to be liberal but is turning into a pound shop Mussolini.

He's always been a fascist, his nice chap in pub act was just that, a transparent act.

[speedy_gonzales]

Apparently the studies run to some 800 pages of which our esteemed negotiator read 2 chapters.

To be fair it would probably be a boring read.

Just a small point on the above, David Davis was indeed given 2 chapters from the 800+ page document but elected not to read them :rolleyes:

BBC reporter Norman Smiths Twitter (https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/938349251293216768)

Actuall BBC News article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854)

[hibsbollah]

Im still trying to work out what the main points of todays agreement are. If you have a British passport but live in France, it looks like you have NO freedom of movement around the EU anymore. If you are French with a EU passport living in the UK and have a Pakistani husband you can bring him and his close family members to the UK. (I guess this is what stimulated Farage's hilarious righteous anger today). Anything else?

[Mibbes Aye]

True and to some degree I agree [emoji16]

But the concept of being able to plug in certain agreements to get a quantifiable impact on the wider economy can surely only be done on a broad brush approach.

The government have stated they have done sectorial analysis which will highlight those sectors that have a bigger or lesser dependence on the current arrangements, that data should be good enough to inform any deal discussions.

However it's a total minefield. Agriculture clearly has a huge reliance on the EU but it can be argued that this makes it highly inefficient and subsidy dependent. Removing such subsidies might cause a lot of short term pain in the industry itself but ultimately drive consolidation and efficiency that boosts its economic impact. Multiply that across each and every EU rule, regulation and trade agreement and you get something that really can't be measured accurately by any model ever no matter one based on so many current unknowns.

You are Keith Joseph and I claim my £10 :greengrin

Though I do agree with your broader point about impact assessments :agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Im still trying to work out what the main points of todays agreement are. If you have a British passport but live in France, it looks like you have NO freedom of movement around the EU anymore. If you are French with a EU passport living in the UK and have a Pakistani husband you can bring him and his close family members to the UK. (I guess this is what stimulated Farage's hilarious righteous anger today). Anything else?

Constructive ambiguity is what it is being called. Its classic EU negotiation, brinkmanship, last minute hick-up with deal hanging by a thread, with it all being salvaged atbthe ladt minute with all sides happy.

To be fair, it seems a pretty reasonable compromise - kinda makes you wonder why it took 18 months to get to it though.

[hibsbollah]

Constructive ambiguity is what it is being called. Its classic EU negotiation, brinkmanship, last minute hick-up with deal hanging by a thread, with it all being salvaged atbthe ladt minute with all sides happy.

To be fair, it seems a pretty reasonable compromise - kinda makes you wonder why it took 18 months to get to it though.

I know it's being called that, but it's not constructive or ambiguous if, like a friend of mine, youve lost your right to travel freely from his home in France to Italy a few hours away. No detail but lots of assumptions. It could be that Farages anger, May's smug pleasure or the DUPs worry are manufactured responses.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know it's being called that, but it's not constructive or ambiguous if, like a friend of mine, youve lost your right to travel freely from his home in France to Italy a few hours away. No detail but lots of assumptions. It could be that Farages anger, May's smug pleasure or the DUPs worry are manufactured responses.

:agree: Looks like I'll be forced to take on German citizenship if I want to keep my job as it involves travelling around Europe. My retirement plans have also taken a knock and simply travelling home over land will likely become a severe pain in the arse as things stand. Utter madness.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I know it's being called that, but it's not constructive or ambiguous if, like a friend of mine, youve lost your right to travel freely from his home in France to Italy a few hours away. No detail but lots of assumptions. It could be that Farages anger, May's smug pleasure or the DUPs worry are manufactured responses.

Wow. So its bad deal? You do realise that a deal for two blocs repreaenting 65million and 400million people respectively might not work perfectly for every individual?

Anyway i didnt negotiate the deal, take it up with messrs May and Junker.

Given where we were a couple of days ago, it seems a decent compromise. And its not a deal yet, until everything else is agreed amd its turned into a legal treaty.

[hibsbollah]

Wow. So its bad deal? You do realise that a deal for two blocs repreaenting 65million and 400million people respectively might not work perfectly for every individual?

Anyway i didnt negotiate the deal, take it up with messrs May and Junker.

Given where we were a couple of days ago, it seems a decent compromise. And its not a deal yet, until everything else is agreed amd its turned into a legal treaty.

No need for the fake surprise 'wow'. Or the irony. I was asking for clarity about what the proposal/agreement/deal actually entails. I have two practical examples of what the deal means for people. You haven't provided any. Which suggests you don't have any more clarity than me as to whether it's good or bad.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No need for the fake surprise 'wow'. Or the irony. I was asking for clarity about what the proposal/agreement/deal actually entails. I have two practical examples of what the deal means for people. You haven't provided any. Which suggests you don't have any more clarity than me as to whether it's good or bad.

This whole conversation started because i said it was 'constructive ambiguity', the phrase you took issue with. Its not supposed to be clear, thats the whole point. Its vague enough that everyone can take what they want from it - classic EU fudge to allow us to move on to the next phase in negotiations.

As for your two pals, i dont know about that im afraid - but the comment about this not being about the status of your two pals, amd being about bigger issues still stands.

So if you know about the deal and its implications, what do you need clarity on?

Well i know that the deal has moved us on past the sticking points, without throwing NI back into violence, and without drawing arbitrary borders within out country (at least for the time being). I also know that for the first time in months, maybe years, all sides of political spectrum, remain/brexit, amd the EU and British govts are all happy - that is a good outcome in my book, and so im happy that i know enough to know its a good deal.

[Mr White]

Feels like it's time to finally apply for an Irish passport. I think I'd prefer to remain an EU citizen all things considered.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Feels like it's time to finally apply for an Irish passport. I think I'd prefer to remain an EU citizen all things considered.

Well you support a club founded by irishmen, so why not embrace your irishness too 😉

[Mr White]

Well you support a club founded by irishmen, so why not embrace your irishness too 😉

In a word... cost. I looked into it years ago but just about puked at the fees back then :greengrin

I'll need to dig deep... and hope my mum knows where her birth and marriage certificates are. That could be a challenge actually.

[lord bunberry]

Wow. So its bad deal? You do realise that a deal for two blocs repreaenting 65million and 400million people respectively might not work perfectly for every individual?

Anyway i didnt negotiate the deal, take it up with messrs May and Junker.

Given where we were a couple of days ago, it seems a decent compromise. And its not a deal yet, until everything else is agreed amd its turned into a legal treaty.

It’s a terrible deal. Compared to what we have right now it’s a huge step back. I realise you’re trying to make the best of a bad situation, but this is just the beginning of everything getting harder and worse for everyone. The EU don’t want to look weak and the UK government are being led by people who couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery.
What a ****ing shambles.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It’s a terrible deal. Compared to what we have right now it’s a huge step back. I realise you’re trying to make the best of a bad situation, but this is just the beginning of everything getting harder and worse for everyone. The EU don’t want to look weak and the UK government are being led by people who couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery.
What a ****ing shambles.

Agreed. But the status quo is not an option anymore, that ship jas sailed. It literally is now about making the best of a situation that i certainly didnt vote for. In that context, im pleased we have moved on to the nitty gritty of the discussions.

But i do absolutely take your point.

[Glory Lurker]

The UK is the least powerful nation in western Europe. Beside us, Ireland is a collusus. Malta and Luxembourg could safely chuck sand in our eye.

[hibsbollah]

This whole conversation started because i said it was 'constructive ambiguity', the phrase you took issue with. Its not supposed to be clear, thats the whole point. Its vague enough that everyone can take what they want from it - classic EU fudge to allow us to move on to the next phase in negotiations.

As for your two pals, i dont know about that im afraid - but the comment about this not being about the status of your two pals, amd being about bigger issues still stands.

So if you know about the deal and its implications, what do you need clarity on?

Well i know that the deal has moved us on past the sticking points, without throwing NI back into violence, and without drawing arbitrary borders within out country (at least for the time being). I also know that for the first time in months, maybe years, all sides of political spectrum, remain/brexit, amd the EU and British govts are all happy - that is a good outcome in my book, and so im happy that i know enough to know its a good deal.

Youve missed my point, again, but since you're obviously not interested in engaging with any other angle than your own, just move on.

[RyeSloan]

You are Keith Joseph and I claim my £10 :greengrin

Though I do agree with your broader point about impact assessments :agree:

Ha ha well I doubt my ramblings on here will have the same impact as some of Joseph's [emoji12]

[Bristolhibby]

Agreed. But the status quo is not an option anymore, that ship jas sailed. It literally is now about making the best of a situation that i certainly didnt vote for. In that context, im pleased we have moved on to the nitty gritty of the discussions.

But i do absolutely take your point.

Put the final deal to a vote and the ship hasn’t sailed.

I’d be up for that

J

[ronaldo7]

Thank god for the Irish. :greengrin When the DUP, and the hard brexiteers get hold of the devil in the detail, we'll be back to a cliff edge.

https://t.co/cUA3Sks0Lt

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Put the final deal to a vote and the ship hasn’t sailed.

I’d be up for that

J

Maybe yeah - but thats unlikely.

[Mr White]

Thank god for the Irish. :greengrin When the DUP, and the hard brexiteers get hold of the devil in the detail, we'll be back to a cliff edge.

https://t.co/cUA3Sks0Lt

As the Irish government pointed out this week it's ironic that the DUP have such a big say in all this since NI voted to remain in the EU, they don't represent the majority of the Northern Irish electorate on the issue. Not that that'll concern them in the slightest of course as they have no problem twisting and blocking democracy.

[Moulin Yarns]

How difficult is it to build a bridge between northern Ireland and Scotland. No borders

[Moulin Yarns]

Northern Ireland will still be able to get Irish passport due to the good Friday agreement. They will still have access to full EU citizenship!!!!

And the rest of the UK can get lost.

EU and Japan have just signed the largest free trade agreement. Nice one leave campaign.

[Glory Lurker]

Northern Ireland will still be able to get Irish passport due to the good Friday agreement. They will still have access to full EU citizenship!!!!

And the rest of the UK can get lost.


Thank god we voted no in 14.

On the NI angle though, “our” bunch are effectively kicking it in to the long grass in the hope something works out over the next year that allows a final deal to be made, like the last 1000 years were drunk. The EU are hoping that there’ll be a change in direction/ government that is happy to keep us in the single market.

[Colr]

Northern Ireland will still be able to get Irish passport due to the good Friday agreement. They will still have access to full EU citizenship!!!!

And the rest of the UK can get lost.

EU and Japan have just signed the largest free trade agreement. Nice one leave campaign.

I hope we can have UK wide regulatory alignment on that one, then.

I’m very keen to get an EU passport.

[McD]

I hope we can have UK wide regulatory alignment on that one, then.

I’m very keen to get an EU passport.


Wasnt that what the DUP have said, that they won’t vote for a deal where NI are treated differently to the rest of the UK?

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood that

[Mr White]

Wasnt that what the DUP have said, that they won’t vote for a deal where NI are treated differently to the rest of the UK?

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood that

They'd probably be quite happy to scrap the rule that anyone born in NI is entitled to ROI citizenship. Thankfully it's out of their hands.

[-Jonesy-]

Wasnt that what the DUP have said, that they won’t vote for a deal where NI are treated differently to the rest of the UK?

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood that

So long as it's different enough to allow them to ban same sex marriage and abortion.

Utter cretins

[Moulin Yarns]

We will get to have 'iconic' blue passports again. At what cost to the country? http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

FWIW I discovered my 1978 'iconic' blue passport, and it is decidedly not blue.

[hibsbollah]

We will get to have 'iconic' blue passports again. At what cost to the country? http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

FWIW I discovered my 1978 'iconic' blue passport, and it is decidedly not blue.

It's kind of black/blue, wasn't it? On the other hand, anything to remove maroon things from the planet should be applauded. Hurrah for the Conservative Party!

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest polling on Brexit:

http://www.comresglobal.com/polls/18394/

43% favour a 2nd ref and if held, Remain ahead 55% - 45%

31% confident of a good deal, 65% not confident.

[lord bunberry]

I know it’s an advert, but every time I see it, it sums up my attitude to brexit
https://youtu.be/V-1UNaA92fg

https://youtu.be/V-1UNaA92fg

[RyeSloan]

I know it’s an advert, but every time I see it, it sums up my attitude to brexit
https://youtu.be/V-1UNaA92fg

https://youtu.be/V-1UNaA92fg

That's we shouldn't be tied to Europe and that we could trade and interact freely with the rest of the world ourselves? [emoji12]

[lord bunberry]

That's we shouldn't be tied to Europe and that we could trade and interact freely with the rest of the world ourselves? [emoji12]

No, that what makes our country what it is, is diversity and the influence of immigration 😜

[RyeSloan]

No, that what makes our country what it is, is diversity and the influence of immigration [emoji12]

Many things make our country what it is...you may be right that some of that is due to diversity and immigration, assuming of course you are meaning a positive 'what it is'


However the advert does make an interesting point in that many nationalities mentioned in it are clearly outside of the EU...just like the fact that there was many more non EU immigrants v EU immigrants into the U.K. last year.

So the EU is clearly not the be all and end all when it comes to immigration as the 173,000 non EU arrivals shows.

It's also interesting to note that immigration of that scale was unheard of for the 3 decades prior to around 2000. The idea that somehow the nation has to have 250k+ people migrating to the UK every year would have sounded rather daft and maybe even destabilise to most people back then (see Labours deliberate lies re the succession of the Easter European countries to the EU). It seems that the last decade and a half has turned that on its head and now any suggestion that maybe the numbers are too high is seen as some sort of UKIP mentalist.

AnywAy my point here is that Brexit will not end migration (nor indeed will it wipe almost 10% off Scotlands GDP!) and it's maybe a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise (be that from the remainder or leave camps).

[grunt]

AnywAy my point here is that Brexit will not ... wipe almost 10% off Scotlands GDP!Who is saying this? The Scottish Government's paper released today looks at a fall of between 2.7% and 8.5% of GDP depending on which of the damaging scenarios we end up with.

Why would anyone deliberately choose to reduce the nation's wealth? Well I guess one might decide to do that if there were other benefits of Brexit. It's just that no one seems to want to say what those benefits might be.

Government impact assessment here http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00530160.pdf

[ronaldo7]

Who is saying this? The Scottish Government's paper released today looks at a fall of between 2.7% and 8.5% of GDP depending on which of the damaging scenarios we end up with.

Why would anyone deliberately choose to reduce the nation's wealth? Well I guess one might decide to do that if there were other benefits of Brexit. It's just that no one seems to want to say what those benefits might be.

Government impact assessment here http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00530160.pdf

One government has been doing the day job then. :wink:

Impact assessments from the Uk gov will be forthcoming soon. :rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

One government has been doing the day job then. :wink:

Impact assessments from the Uk gov will be forthcoming soon. :rolleyes:

As an interesting comparison what was equivalent report at the time of Independence?

[ronaldo7]

As an interesting comparison what was equivalent report at the time of Independence?

Who's Independence?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As an interesting comparison what was equivalent report at the time of Independence?

Aw, dont go there mate! 😣

[johnbc70]

Aw, dont go there mate! 😣

Maybe for another time.

[johnbc70]

Who's Independence?

I think you know exactly what I mean. But let's leave it for another day, if and when we get another vote.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe for another time.

I was being tongue in cheek, obviously its not for me to tell anyone what to post!

[ronaldo7]

I think you know exactly what I mean. But let's leave it for another day, if and when we get another vote.

I think you'll find yourself somewhere in here. Mate.

https://t.co/txUWZTPH5H

[johnbc70]

I think you'll find yourself somewhere in here. Mate.

https://t.co/txUWZTPH5H

That says nothing of any significance. You seem to like posting links of other people's opinions and playing them as facts. Are the opinions of others not valid because they don't match your view of the world.

[ronaldo7]

I think you know exactly what I mean. But let's leave it for another day, if and when we get another vote.


That says nothing of any significance. You seem to like posting links of other people's opinions and playing them as facts. Are the opinions of others not valid because they don't match your view of the world.

Whereas, you seem to think people know what you're on about, without you having said anything. Top trolling "Mate".

Have a nice evening, and when you get up, try and keep this thread on Brexit, theirs a long way to go. We wouldn't want to muddy the waters, would we.:greengrin

[johnbc70]

Whereas, you seem to think people know what you're on about, without you having said anything. Top trolling "Mate".

Have a nice evening, and when you get up, try and keep this thread on Brexit, theirs a long way to go. We wouldn't want to muddy the waters, would we.:greengrin

You claimed to not know what I was on about, yet you did as your link proved that. Strange.

But I agree let's stick to Brexit, plenty of time for debate if we ever get another Indy vote.

[ronaldo7]

You claimed to not know what I was on about, yet you did as your link proved that. Strange.

But I agree let's stick to Brexit, plenty of time for debate if we ever get another Indy vote.

I guessed, after all, it's the only thing Tories go on about these days. :wink:

[johnbc70]

I guessed, after all, it's the only thing Tories go on about these days. :wink:

Good one, although I suppose guessing is something your party does quite a lot of so sticking to form there.

[ronaldo7]

Good one, although I suppose guessing is something your party does quite a lot of so sticking to form there.

And my guess was spot on eh. Just like the guess of your true blue credentials. :faf:

And a tory, mentioning other parties guessing is the best one though.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good one, although I suppose guessing is something your party does quite a lot of so sticking to form there.

What's your thoughts on the Scottish governments Brexit economic assessments?

[johnbc70]

What's your thoughts on the Scottish governments Brexit economic assessments?

Looks grim, wish we had voted remain.

[grunt]

Looks grim, wish we had voted remain.We did.

[xyz23jc]

We did.


:top marksTouche! Guess JohnBC70 has done a Mundell! :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

:top marksTouche! Guess JohnBC70 has done a Mundell! :greengrin

The Secretary of hate for Scotland.

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/deidre-brock-mundell-is-caught-knitting-on-the-job

[Hiber-nation]

The Secretary of hate for Scotland.

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/deidre-brock-mundell-is-caught-knitting-on-the-job

Correct link here :wink:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/deidre-brock-mundell-is-caught-knitting-on-the-job-1-4659747

[RyeSloan]

What's your thoughts on the Scottish governments Brexit economic assessments?

I skim read the document yesterday (yes I was very bored [emoji23]).

Completely and utterly one sided view. Not sure you can take anything seriously when it completely fails to at least point out the other sides argument then present sensible counter positions to persuade the reader why the conclusions reached are sensible and measured.

I was hoping for a reasoned position and some clear conclusions but it's just a rather poorly presented list of presumed and assumed benefits of the EU without any consideration what so ever that it must be impossible for absolutely every single thing the EU means brings benefit to Scotland.

Ultimately however for its headline numbers it seems to heavily rely on other work which is then mashed into another special model, grandly titled the Scottish Government Global Econometric Model, to model the models and end up at the -8.5% figure in 2030 largely through an obscure extrapolation of productivity loss.

An extrapolation that takes some believing, not least because they are based on HM Treasury figures (who along with the BoE /ONS have been rather woeful at predicting productivity numbers one year ahead no matter over a decade. In fact the ONS lowered their annual predictions to 0.2% in October after over estimating for years and then published figures in Jan saying the last quarter had seen productivity growth of 0.9%, the highest since 2011! ).

The figures then of course assume a reduction in trade openness (type and scale undefined on the paper) when clearly over 10 - 15 years there may well be significant extra opportunity for trade and of course the EU 'free trade' is actually a huge protectionist bloc!

Finally the paper appears to unquestionably support EU spending like the CAP, probably one of the least productive subsidy regimes ever without ever even briefly contemplating that it may actually be possible to manage such funds much more productively than the EU does.


It does however yet again show the SNP fully supporting further EU integration in a energy union, banking union, capital markets union and a digitise single market...there really does seem to be no end to the SNP's desire to see the EU centralise everything.

So safe to say I'm not really convinced by this latest crystal ball effort no matter how grand a name they have given their model.

[WeeRussell]

I skim read the document yesterday (yes I was very bored [emoji23]).

Completely and utterly one sided view. Not sure you can take anything seriously when it completely fails to at least point out the other sides argument then present sensible counter positions to persuade the reader why the conclusions reached are sensible and measured.

I was hoping for a reasoned position and some clear conclusions but it's just a rather poorly presented list of presumed and assumed benefits of the EU without any consideration what so ever that it must be impossible for absolutely every single thing the EU means brings benefit to Scotland.

Ultimately however for its headline numbers it seems to heavily rely on other work which is then mashed into another special model, grandly titled the Scottish Government Global Econometric Model, to model the models and end up at the -8.5% figure in 2030 largely through an obscure extrapolation of productivity loss.

An extrapolation that takes some believing, not least because they are based on HM Treasury figures (who along with the BoE /ONS have been rather woeful at predicting productivity numbers one year ahead no matter over a decade. In fact the ONS lowered their annual predictions to 0.2% in October after over estimating for years and then published figures in Jan saying the last quarter had seen productivity growth of 0.9%, the highest since 2011! ).

The figures then of course assume a reduction in trade openness (type and scale undefined on the paper) when clearly over 10 - 15 years there may well be significant extra opportunity for trade and of course the EU 'free trade' is actually a huge protectionist bloc!

Finally the paper appears to unquestionably support EU spending like the CAP, probably one of the least productive subsidy regimes ever without ever even briefly contemplating that it may actually be possible to manage such funds much more productively than the EU does.


It does however yet again show the SNP fully supporting further EU integration in a energy union, banking union, capital markets union and a digitise single market...there really does seem to be no end to the SNP's desire to see the EU centralise everything.

So safe to say I'm not really convinced by this latest crystal ball effort no matter how grand a name they have given their model.

That’s a very detailed and damming summary for a skim-read.

[Mr Grieves]

I skim read the document yesterday (yes I was very bored [emoji23]).

Completely and utterly one sided view. Not sure you can take anything seriously when it completely fails to at least point out the other sides argument then present sensible counter positions to persuade the reader why the conclusions reached are sensible and measured.

I was hoping for a reasoned position and some clear conclusions but it's just a rather poorly presented list of presumed and assumed benefits of the EU without any consideration what so ever that it must be impossible for absolutely every single thing the EU means brings benefit to Scotland.

Ultimately however for its headline numbers it seems to heavily rely on other work which is then mashed into another special model, grandly titled the Scottish Government Global Econometric Model, to model the models and end up at the -8.5% figure in 2030 largely through an obscure extrapolation of productivity loss.

An extrapolation that takes some believing, not least because they are based on HM Treasury figures (who along with the BoE /ONS have been rather woeful at predicting productivity numbers one year ahead no matter over a decade. In fact the ONS lowered their annual predictions to 0.2% in October after over estimating for years and then published figures in Jan saying the last quarter had seen productivity growth of 0.9%, the highest since 2011! ).

The figures then of course assume a reduction in trade openness (type and scale undefined on the paper) when clearly over 10 - 15 years there may well be significant extra opportunity for trade and of course the EU 'free trade' is actually a huge protectionist bloc!

Finally the paper appears to unquestionably support EU spending like the CAP, probably one of the least productive subsidy regimes ever without ever even briefly contemplating that it may actually be possible to manage such funds much more productively than the EU does.


It does however yet again show the SNP fully supporting further EU integration in a energy union, banking union, capital markets union and a digitise single market...there really does seem to be no end to the SNP's desire to see the EU centralise everything.

So safe to say I'm not really convinced by this latest crystal ball effort no matter how grand a name they have given their model.

Out of interest, has anyone produced an economic assessment that shows the positives of Brexit? One that tells us how these opportunities we always hear about are going to grow our economy?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Out of interest, has anyone produced an economic assessment that shows the positives of Brexit? One that tells us how these opportunities we always hear about are going to grow our economy?

Dont think so, they are probably too hypothetical.

[Moulin Yarns]

Out of interest, has anyone produced an economic assessment that shows the positives of Brexit? One that tells us how these opportunities we always hear about are going to grow our economy?

If I remember rightly it was written on the side of a bus, something about £350m and the NHS.

[RyeSloan]

Out of interest, has anyone produced an economic assessment that shows the positives of Brexit? One that tells us how these opportunities we always hear about are going to grow our economy?

The problem with any assessment is the models used. Economic predictions are inherently risky and very often wrong.

A few short articles that point this out in general and with a Brexit slant and why such papers and particularly the projected numbers like the SG has just produced should be taken with a huge dose of salt.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/its-time-to-junk-the-flawed-economic-models-that-make-the-world-a-dangerous-place


https://themarketmogul.com/problem-economic-models/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/how-the-uk-can-benefit-from-a-free-trade-future-after-brexit-even-outside-the-single-market-84171

[Hibrandenburg]

The Irish know what's going on.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-is-a-collective-english-mental-breakdown-1.3356258?mode=amp

[JimBHibees]

The Irish know what's going on.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-is-a-collective-english-mental-breakdown-1.3356258?mode=amp

Very good article and further emphasises how depressing the brexit vote was.

[Hibrandenburg]

Corbyn now rules out 2nd referendum. This will cost Labour votes in Scotland.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn now rules out 2nd referendum. This will cost Labour votes in Scotland.


...and in London, and anywhere metropolitan with a big student population. But its just the opposite in Hartlepool or Lincolnshire or Kent, where Labour are counting on the working class Brexit vote in dozens of close constituencies. I wish he had called for a second referendum too, but it's a political calculation. Keep your head down on Brexit makes a lot of sense.

I'll be expecting Messrs Blair, Ummuna and Mandelson to be given plenty of column inches attacking Corbyn on Europe in the smart papers next week.

Edit, a pedant adds, he didn't absolutely rule it out. He's just 'not calling for one' and won't be calling for one. There might be wriggle room later on if he wants to change tack.

[RyeSloan]

...and in London, and anywhere metropolitan with a big student population. But its just the opposite in Hartlepool or Lincolnshire or Kent, where Labour are counting on the working class Brexit vote in dozens of close constituencies. I wish he had called for a second referendum too, but it's a political calculation. Keep your head down on Brexit makes a lot of sense.

I'll be expecting Messrs Blair, Ummuna and Mandelson to be given plenty of column inches attacking Corbyn on Europe in the smart papers next week.

Edit, a pedant adds, he didn't absolutely rule it out. He's just 'not calling for one' and won't be calling for one. There might be wriggle room later on if he wants to change tack.

It's doubtful he will though. Corbyn is clearly comfortable with leaving the EU...in fact he probably needs the UK to do so if he ever has a prayer of implanting his government intervention agenda. Not having the EU rules around such things will be a boon to any party wanting to renationalise and launch a grand industrial policy.

[One Day Soon]

May and Corbyn are paddling the same canoe on Brexit - there's no policy difference between them. They'll happily burn British jobs for narrow party advantage. Not a principled political bone in either of their bodies.

Corbyn claims to want a 'jobs first Brexit' but can't tell us what that actually means, largely because it doesn't mean anything.

When Rees-Mogg on one side and Paul Mason on the other have become influential voices you know you're screwed.

[ronaldo7]

May and Corbyn are paddling the same canoe on Brexit - there's no policy difference between them. They'll happily burn British jobs for narrow party advantage. Not a principled political bone in either of their bodies.

Corbyn claims to want a 'jobs first Brexit' but can't tell us what that actually means, largely because it doesn't mean anything.

When Rees-Mogg on one side and Paul Mason on the other have become influential voices you know you're screwed.

Better together, in other words. :greengrin

[Saturday Boy]

Better together, in other words. :greengrin

I see what you did there 😉

[One Day Soon]

Better together, in other words. :greengrin


They're happy to drag the UK out of its biggest single export market for narrow party advantage.

Sturgeon wants to drag Scotland out of its biggest single market - the rest of the UK - for narrow party advantage.

Cretins the lot of them.

[JeMeSouviens]

They're happy to drag the UK out of its biggest single export market for narrow party advantage.

Sturgeon wants to drag Scotland out of its biggest single market - the rest of the UK - for narrow party advantage.

Cretins the lot of them.

I think I'm actually finding it harder to get over Brexit than the Indyref. Scottish independence has a point. Move Scotland from being part of a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism to a modern small European country. Brexit is more like take a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism and drop it over an angst ridden cliff.

And not that it would be my preferred way to get there but if the UK really does plonk itself outside the SM & CU, then it really shouldn't be that difficult to come up with a sound economic strategy for iScotland. The long term advantage of being the English speaking bridge to a market of 500M people is gold. I'm not discounting the short term economic pain of getting there, btw, but compared to the long term pain of going down with hard-Brexit titanic UK, as the backwater of the backwater ... ****** mental. :confused::boo hoo::bitchy:

[CropleyWasGod]

I think I'm actually finding it harder to get over Brexit than the Indyref. Scottish independence has a point. Move Scotland from being part of a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism to a modern small European country. Brexit is more like take a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism and drop it over an angst ridden cliff.

And not that it would be my preferred way to get there but if the UK really does plonk itself outside the SM & CU, then it really shouldn't be that difficult to come up with a sound economic strategy for iScotland. The long term advantage of being the English speaking bridge to a market of 500M people is gold. I'm not discounting the short term economic pain of getting there, btw, but compared to the long term pain of going down with hard-Brexit titanic UK, as the backwater of the backwater ... ****** mental. :confused::boo hoo::bitchy:

That's where I am too.

Now that we are staring into the abyss, EU-wise, the Indyref arguments are almost small-fry for me. Being outside the EU scares me more than being part of a UK that's still a member.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think I'm actually finding it harder to get over Brexit than the Indyref. Scottish independence has a point. Move Scotland from being part of a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism to a modern small European country. Brexit is more like take a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism and drop it over an angst ridden cliff.

And not that it would be my preferred way to get there but if the UK really does plonk itself outside the SM & CU, then it really shouldn't be that difficult to come up with a sound economic strategy for iScotland. The long term advantage of being the English speaking bridge to a market of 500M people is gold. I'm not discounting the short term economic pain of getting there, btw, but compared to the long term pain of going down with hard-Brexit titanic UK, as the backwater of the backwater ... ****** mental. :confused::boo hoo::bitchy:

I think its a fair point.

Even for those who dont particularly agree with indy, at least it has an obvious, tangible point to it - scots habing their own country and being in charge of ourselves again.

While i suppose brexit could be termed the same way, it seems a much more flimsy appeal (maybe thats becausd im Scottish, not english?)

However it also does make the pain of separation negotiations quite obvious, and removing scotland from the union would be worse than brexit imo. In the short term i mean, long term i think the threat/opportunity balance is fairly neutral.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think its a fair point.

Even for those who dont particularly agree with indy, at least it has an obvious, tangible point to it - scots habing their own country and being in charge of ourselves again.

While i suppose brexit could be termed the same way, it seems a much more flimsy appeal (maybe thats becausd im Scottish, not english?)

However it also does make the pain of separation negotiations quite obvious, and removing scotland from the union would be worse than brexit imo. In the short term i mean, long term i think the threat/opportunity balance is fairly neutral.

Yeah, maybe it looks different if you're English? From here it just looks like a colossal waste of time and money to give the Rees-Moggs of the world a last little vestigial imperial thrill.

Take the point re negotiations but at least you'd think we'd have a much clearer (read any ****** clue whatsoever) idea of our goals from them. Future trading relationship is whatever the rUK/EU negotiate, monetary union is obv off the cards this time. There is debt/assets and the relocation of trident.

The pain of short term economic disentanglement combined with removal of Barnett is not to be airily dismissed though. It's a leap away from certain deathly decline but scary nonetheless.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yeah, maybe it looks different if you're English? From here it just looks like a colossal waste of time and money to give the Rees-Moggs of the world a last little vestigial imperial thrill.

Take the point re negotiations but at least you'd think we'd have a much clearer (read any ****** clue whatsoever) idea of our goals from them. Future trading relationship is whatever the rUK/EU negotiate, monetary union is obv off the cards this time. There is debt/assets and the relocation of trident.

The pain of short term economic disentanglement combined with removal of Barnett is not to be airily dismissed though. It's a leap away from certain deathly decline but scary nonetheless.

Yeah, i agree that any SG negotiating team would be far better, amd better equipped than our current HMGvt team.

Absolutely not, and there would be enormous risks and upheaval imo. Then we woyld possibly have to negotiate with the EU also.

I do wonder if something is going to happeb derail brexit though, the mood music seems to be changing.

Hypothetically, if May was about to be ousted, couls she as PM unilaterally withdraw the A50 letter amd stop the whole thing? I doubt she would, but it might be the only way to rescue her premiership from complete rubbish to something quite monumental and historic...

[hibsbollah]

So Barniers statement this evening has the effect of the actual Brexit divorce after transition as being autumn of 2020, if my maths is right?

[PeeJay]

So Barniers statement this evening has the effect of the actual Brexit divorce after transition as being autumn of 2020, if my maths is right?

Here in Europe (sic), we have the date as December 31, 2020 ... (starting from exit date March 31, 2019 + 21 months) ... your maths are wrong methinks ... so, it's winter not autumn :greengrin

[grunt]

That's where I am too.

Now that we are staring into the abyss, EU-wise, the Indyref arguments are almost small-fry for me. Being outside the EU scares me more than being part of a UK that's still a member.
This is me. I couldn't support Indy14 because of the economic arguments.
But they've disappeared from my concerns now - not least because of the opportunities mentioned by
JeMeSouviens above.
But mainly because I don't wish to have anything to do with the narrow minded bigoted xenophobic racists that turning over the Brexit has uncovered.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah, i agree that any SG negotiating team would be far better, amd better equipped than our current HMGvt team.

Absolutely not, and there would be enormous risks and upheaval imo. Then we woyld possibly have to negotiate with the EU also.

I do wonder if something is going to happeb derail brexit though, the mood music seems to be changing.

Hypothetically, if May was about to be ousted, couls she as PM unilaterally withdraw the A50 letter amd stop the whole thing? I doubt she would, but it might be the only way to rescue her premiership from complete rubbish to something quite monumental and historic...

Even if it puts Indy back 10 years - I ****** hope so!

[grunt]

I do wonder if something is going to happeb derail brexit though, the mood music seems to be changing. i can't see it. The Daily Mail and the BBCQT hordes would literally take to the streets.

[hibsbollah]

Here in Europe (sic), we have the date as December 31, 2020 ... (starting from exit date March 31, 2019 + 21 months) ... your maths are wrong methinks ... so, it's winter not autumn :greengrin

:aok: plenty of time to arrange a controlled escape to the continent then.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

i can't see it. The Daily Mail and the BBCQT hordes would literally take to the streets.

Yeah you are probably right, but its just a wee feeling i get. I think there could well be a sting in the tail.

More likely we just end up with some stupid halfway house Norway style deal.

[Colr]

...and in London, and anywhere metropolitan with a big student population. But its just the opposite in Hartlepool or Lincolnshire or Kent, where Labour are counting on the working class Brexit vote in dozens of close constituencies. I wish he had called for a second referendum too, but it's a political calculation. Keep your head down on Brexit makes a lot of sense.

I'll be expecting Messrs Blair, Ummuna and Mandelson to be given plenty of column inches attacking Corbyn on Europe in the smart papers next week.

Edit, a pedant adds, he didn't absolutely rule it out. He's just 'not calling for one' and won't be calling for one. There might be wriggle room later on if he wants to change tack.

He doesn’t need to do anything. This is the Tories doing and he can just sit back and let them tear themselves apart over it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

He doesn’t need to do anything. This is the Tories doing and he can just sit back and let them tear themselves apart over it.

Hes done that so far and its got him... level in the polls.

I really do feel labour are missing a trick here.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah you are probably right, but its just a wee feeling i get. I think there could well be a sting in the tail.

More likely we just end up with some stupid halfway house Norway style deal.

You mean the best case scenario.

[Hibrandenburg]

This is me. I couldn't support Indy14 because of the economic arguments.
But they've disappeared from my concerns now - not least because of the opportunities mentioned by
JeMeSouviens above.
But mainly because I don't wish to have anything to do with the narrow minded bigoted xenophobic racists that turning over the Brexit has uncovered.

Nobody can say that the writing wasn't on the wall before the last Indy referendum. The whole political landscape in England has taken a massive leap to the right in the last 10 years and in a united UK that means Scotland are dragged along with them. My opinion was then that it was Scotland's last chance to leave the union on semi amicable terms, if it's going to happen now then it will get extremely nasty.

[grunt]

Nobody can say that the writing wasn't on the wall before the last Indy referendum.

It may well have been. To my eternal shame I missed it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

It may well have been. To my eternal shame I missed it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Fair doos, at least you have now recognised it, many still believe that a Westminster government whether left or right give two hoots about what the Scottish electorate want.

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be

For those sceptical of the Scottish government analysis

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You mean the best case scenario.

Im not so sure that it is.

The problem is its neither one thing or another. Its the worst of both worlds.

For all i dont want or agree with brexit, one of its undoubted upsides would be the ability to make bilateral agreements with other countries. Any deal that prevents this would not be a good deal.

Before i get jumped on, no im not saying that this ability is better than the internal market, but in any situation there are positives and negatives. That would be one of the positives imo.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nobody can say that the writing wasn't on the wall before the last Indy referendum. The whole political landscape in England has taken a massive leap to the right in the last 10 years and in a united UK that means Scotland are dragged along with them. My opinion was then that it was Scotland's last chance to leave the union on semi amicable terms, if it's going to happen now then it will get extremely nasty.

I dont think the landscape has taken a massive leap to the right. England has always been a small 'c' conservative, right of centre country at its heart. Its nearly 40 years since we voted in Thatcher. Brexit isnt about the right or fhe left all that much imo, as is shown by corbyns support for it.

The EU is probably the greatest practical example of (neo?) liberal exonomics put into practice anywhere in the world. The left in this country have opposed it for a good chunk of its existence and it is overwhelmingly supported by corporates, finance, banking etc. Brexiting can be just as much a left wing vote - particuarly when those poorer, more left voting areas voted for it against the wishes of the 'metropolitcan, liberal elite'.

Imo its good, old fashioned populism, mixed in with a good dose of english/british jingoism and foreigner bashing (lets not forget that wales and circa 40% of us jocks voted for it too) with more than a dash of terrible political leadership, fractured politics within the tories amd complacency thrown-in to really spice it up.

Also, to give a bit of balance, many of the reasons for voting for Brexit are legitimate ones. If i lived in some left behind post industrial dump, id be a pit peeved off with my country transferring wealth to eastern europe, at the same time as seeing millions of east europeans move here and compete with me for low-paid work, houses etc.

If the new Labour govt has paid more heed to these concerns instead of arrogantly dismissing them, resentment might not habe built up to the same extent. But thats all moot now.

[One Day Soon]

I think I'm actually finding it harder to get over Brexit than the Indyref. Scottish independence has a point. Move Scotland from being part of a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism to a modern small European country. Brexit is more like take a fading, failing post-imperial bag of neuroticism and drop it over an angst ridden cliff.

And not that it would be my preferred way to get there but if the UK really does plonk itself outside the SM & CU, then it really shouldn't be that difficult to come up with a sound economic strategy for iScotland. The long term advantage of being the English speaking bridge to a market of 500M people is gold. I'm not discounting the short term economic pain of getting there, btw, but compared to the long term pain of going down with hard-Brexit titanic UK, as the backwater of the backwater ... ****** mental. :confused::boo hoo::bitchy:


I've lost any residual faith I had in all our politicians and parties - and the electorate who voted for these idiots and this crap.

Brexit must be the stupidest piece of political self harm in our history. Hard left and Hard right Brexiteers are conspiring to trash our economic prospects for a mixture of narrow party advantage and sectarian political purposes while casually fuelling and enabling racism and xenophobia in the process. May and Corbyn are beneath contempt.

Sturgeon's answer is to pour petrol on the flames of the Brexit economic vandalism by removing us from our biggest single marketplace - exiting the UK despite all the questions on currency, structural deficit and EU membership remaining unanswered. Taking the Brexit self-harm wounds and carefully and deliberately opening them even more deeply with a different weapon. A Kamikaze strategy as blinkered and narrow as that of the UK political joyriders.

What does that leave? Vince Cable and Willie Rennie? God help us.

A political party and leader that brought forward a credible long term growth strategy aimed at closing our deficit, increasing productivity and making our economy competitive - together with a guarantee of no more constitutional bollocks for the next twenty years - would get my vote in a heartbeat. Even if it was Sturgeon and the SNP.

They should all be focused on growth, obsessed by it in fact. Without that to close the deficit those supporting the Union aren't making a convincing case for the status quo delivering economic success and those in favour of independence are advocating a leap into public services destruction and high tax mayhem. Close the gap and we can have a real debate.

We've wasted the last ten years in Scotland on obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP. We're about to waste the next ten years in the UK obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to David Cameron, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.

In the words of Charlton Heston: "God damn you. God damn you all to hell"

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've lost any residual faith I had in all our politicians and parties - and the electorate who voted for these idiots and this crap.

Brexit must be the stupidest piece of political self harm in our history. Hard left and Hard right Brexiteers are conspiring to trash our economic prospects for a mixture of narrow party advantage and sectarian political purposes while casually fuelling and enabling racism and xenophobia in the process. May and Corbyn are beneath contempt.

Sturgeon's answer is to pour petrol on the flames of the Brexit economic vandalism by removing us from our biggest single marketplace - exiting the UK despite all the questions on currency, structural deficit and EU membership remaining unanswered. Taking the Brexit self-harm wounds and carefully and deliberately opening them even more deeply with a different weapon. A Kamikaze strategy as blinkered and narrow as that of the UK political joyriders.

What does that leave? Vince Cable and Willie Rennie? God help us.

A political party and leader that brought forward a credible long term growth strategy aimed at closing our deficit, increasing productivity and making our economy competitive - together with a guarantee of no more constitutional bollocks for the next twenty years - would get my vote in a heartbeat. Even if it was Sturgeon and the SNP.

They should all be focused on growth, obsessed by it in fact. Without that to close the deficit those supporting the Union aren't making a convincing case for the status quo delivering economic success and those in favour of independence are advocating a leap into public services destruction and high tax mayhem. Close the gap and we can have a real debate.

We've wasted the last ten years in Scotland on obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP. We're about to waste the next ten years in the UK obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to David Cameron, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.

In the words of Charlton Heston: "God damn you. God damn you all to hell"

Your 'lost decades' is my main problem with this too. Financial crash has already given me a decade of hampered opportunities in my more productive years, brexit will be another decade, and as you say, indy would most likely be another decade. Im not prepared to vote for that just to give some politicians their moment in the sun. Im a proud Scot, but im not prepared to sacrifice my productive life to give a parliament and a government that we already have, more power. We had our once in a generation opportunity, and we chose not to take it. Its now a question for the next generation, if they can ever sort out the mess we are currently bequeathing to them.

Id vote for anybody that offered that too - how i long for New Labour now.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've lost any residual faith I had in all our politicians and parties - and the electorate who voted for these idiots and this crap.

Brexit must be the stupidest piece of political self harm in our history. Hard left and Hard right Brexiteers are conspiring to trash our economic prospects for a mixture of narrow party advantage and sectarian political purposes while casually fuelling and enabling racism and xenophobia in the process. May and Corbyn are beneath contempt.

Sturgeon's answer is to pour petrol on the flames of the Brexit economic vandalism by removing us from our biggest single marketplace - exiting the UK despite all the questions on currency, structural deficit and EU membership remaining unanswered. Taking the Brexit self-harm wounds and carefully and deliberately opening them even more deeply with a different weapon. A Kamikaze strategy as blinkered and narrow as that of the UK political joyriders.

What does that leave? Vince Cable and Willie Rennie? God help us.

A political party and leader that brought forward a credible long term growth strategy aimed at closing our deficit, increasing productivity and making our economy competitive - together with a guarantee of no more constitutional bollocks for the next twenty years - would get my vote in a heartbeat. Even if it was Sturgeon and the SNP.

They should all be focused on growth, obsessed by it in fact. Without that to close the deficit those supporting the Union aren't making a convincing case for the status quo delivering economic success and those in favour of independence are advocating a leap into public services destruction and high tax mayhem. Close the gap and we can have a real debate.

We've wasted the last ten years in Scotland on obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP. We're about to waste the next ten years in the UK obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to David Cameron, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.

In the words of Charlton Heston: "God damn you. God damn you all to hell"

Do you (honestly) think the SG with its present set of powers can do anything more than tinker at the edges of economic growth?

And even if they could, they are about to be well and truly hamstrung by having the Brexiteers' dream immigration policy thrust upon them while inward investment tanks. Who is going to want to invest in Scotland when they could go to Ireland and a market of 500M? Who's going to jump through hoops to live in guaranteed Declinoville, Scotland? Declining population, diminishing economy, ageing demographic. It all spells ****ed any way you slice it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont think the landscape has taken a massive leap to the right. England has always been a small 'c' conservative, right of centre country at its heart. Its nearly 40 years since we voted in Thatcher. Brexit isnt about the right or fhe left all that much imo, as is shown by corbyns support for it.

The EU is probably the greatest practical example of (neo?) liberal exonomics put into practice anywhere in the world. The left in this country have opposed it for a good chunk of its existence and it is overwhelmingly supported by corporates, finance, banking etc. Brexiting can be just as much a left wing vote - particuarly when those poorer, more left voting areas voted for it against the wishes of the 'metropolitcan, liberal elite'.

Imo its good, old fashioned populism, mixed in with a good dose of english/british jingoism and foreigner bashing (lets not forget that wales and circa 40% of us jocks voted for it too) with more than a dash of terrible political leadership, fractured politics within the tories amd complacency thrown-in to really spice it up.

Also, to give a bit of balance, many of the reasons for voting for Brexit are legitimate ones. If i lived in some left behind post industrial dump, id be a pit peeved off with my country transferring wealth to eastern europe, at the same time as seeing millions of east europeans move here and compete with me for low-paid work, houses etc.

If the new Labour govt has paid more heed to these concerns instead of arrogantly dismissing them, resentment might not habe built up to the same extent. But thats all moot now.

It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.

[Just Alf]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be

For those sceptical of the Scottish government analysisWhat worries me about it is how, when asked what analysis the government had undertaken regarding Brexit they stated there was none.... Yet they actually had this already commissioned... "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing"

Now, I know it appears a bit onesided on the negative view at the moment, but surely the fully completed briefing could have also included any positive analysis???

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.

Ill wait till we see what happens with regulation and workers rights - i think there is a lot of scaremongering going on with that - ultinately it will become a domestic political issue.

I agree the EU has been a success, amd i agree it is in the mould of third-way liberalism, which has gone majorly oit of fashion in this country, alas. However as you know, liberlism is not 'the left' (despite the terms being confused by the US lexicon).

I suppose beexit was a bit of a perfect storm in that it united disaffected left voters with angry right voters, hence why its been so pernicious and why we have a complete vacuum of political leadership in our two main parties.

[One Day Soon]

Do you (honestly) think the SG with its present set of powers can do anything more than tinker at the edges of economic growth?

And even if they could, they are about to be well and truly hamstrung by having the Brexiteers' dream immigration policy thrust upon them while inward investment tanks. Who is going to want to invest in Scotland when they could go to Ireland and a market of 500M? Who's going to jump through hoops to live in guaranteed Declinoville, Scotland? Declining population, diminishing economy, ageing demographic. It all spells ****ed any way you slice it.


Yes I do and so does Nicola Sturgeon. She regularly talks about delivering growth and within the existing powers. Actually they all do. So no-one and no party gets a pass.

[One Day Soon]

Ill wait till we see what happens with regulation and workers rights - i think there is a lot of scaremongering going on with that - ultinately it will become a domestic political issue.

I agree the EU has been a success, amd i agree it is in the mould of third-way liberalism, which has gone majorly oit of fashion in this country, alas. However as you know, liberlism is not 'the left' (despite the terms being confused by the US lexicon).

I suppose beexit was a bit of a perfect storm in that it united disaffected left voters with angry right voters, hence why its been so pernicious and why we have a complete vacuum of political leadership in our two main parties.


The extremist horseshoe.

One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The extremist horseshoe.

One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.

One Day Soon, hopefully 😃

[One Day Soon]

One Day Soon, hopefully 😃


Amen, middle-aged Brother or Sister.

[Slavers]

It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.

A success except for the 40% youth unemployment in areas across the EU or for the people of Greece.

[JeMeSouviens]

A success except for the 40% youth unemployment in areas across the EU or for the people of Greece.

The single market (what we were talking about) can't take the blame for fiscal irresponsibility, the global financial crash of 2008 and the subsequent austerity in the Eurozone.

https://assets.weforum.org/editor/Wx1Gd3717RYh8w7LeTEBfGLy3XBObIki2pVK8-oADX0.png

[One Day Soon]

The single market (what we were talking about) can't take the blame for fiscal irresponsibility, the global financial crash of 2008 and the subsequent austerity in the Eurozone.

https://assets.weforum.org/editor/Wx1Gd3717RYh8w7LeTEBfGLy3XBObIki2pVK8-oADX0.png


Indeed. Feq me that graph is big though.

[JeMeSouviens]

What worries me about it is how, when asked what analysis the government had undertaken regarding Brexit they stated there was none.... Yet they actually had this already commissioned... "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing"

Now, I know it appears a bit onesided on the negative view at the moment, but surely the fully completed briefing could have also included any positive analysis???

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


Asked why the prime minister was not making the analysis public, a DExEU source told BuzzFeed News: "Because it's embarrassing."

Would be :faf: if not so :boo hoo:

The positive analysis was factored in, in fact they make pretty wildly optimistic assumptions about the number of trade deals they're going to be able to conclude:


On the plus side, the analysis assumes in all scenarios that a trade deal with the US will be concluded, and that it would benefit GDP by about 0.2% in the long term. Trade deals with other non-EU countries and blocs, such as China, India, Australia, the Gulf countries, and the nations of Southeast Asia would add, in total, a further 0.1% to 0.4% to GDP over the long term.

[JeMeSouviens]

Indeed. Feq me that graph is big though.

:cb

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Would be :faf: if not so :boo hoo:

The positive analysis was factored in, in fact they make pretty wildly optimistic assumptions about the number of trade deals they're going to be able to conclude:

To be fair to HMG, they did publish pretty similar analysis to this during the ref - so its not exactly been a secret!

[hibsbollah]

The extremist horseshoe.

One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.

Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.

That's a very arrogant response.

I assure you i understand politics very well, both theoretical and applied.

I cant help but be struck by the irony of an unreconstructed socialist accusing others of being left behind by the 21st century. How many of your socialist bastions habe made it into the 21st centrury again?

[hibsbollah]

That's a very arrogant response.

I assure you i understand politics very well, both theoretical and applied.

I cant help but be struck by the irony of an unreconstructed socialist accusing others of being left behind by the 21st century. How many of your socialist bastions habe made it into the 21st centrury again?

It wasnt intended to be a dig at you personally, I just find the theory absolute garbage. "Stalin was left wing, Hitler was right wing, they were both murderous, hence their ideologies are essentially the same". I want someone to explain to me how this works in the world of logic. And Im not sure i would personally describe myself as a 'socialist', unreconstructed or not, because in a world of global capital such labels dont mean that much anymore. I believe in wealth redistribution within the confines of a mixed (public and private) economy, as opposed to the militant extremism we have now with a rampant private sector hoovering up all aspects of public life. Kind of a northern european model. Regardless, I suspect you are using 'socialist' as an insult as opposed to accurately representing me so i get that:aok:

[One Day Soon]

Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.


Have you ever had any sustained involvement in politics rather than just talking about it? If you had you would know exactly what is meant.

We don't have GCSEs here - never have done.

There are many clarion calls for people who have been 'left behind by twentieth first century politics'. This isn't one of them. The notion - and the fact - that the extreme right and left eventually conspire on the far fringes for at least transitional purposes has been in common political usage since as early as the 1980s - certainly in the Trade Unions. It gained a formal label more recently.

As far as I can see the only people who don't want to redistribute wealth or do anything about power being in the hands of the few are those who are happy to conspire in a powerless, oppositionalist agenda safe in the knowledge that they can talk, look and sound radical without any actual danger of effecting change. The current Labour Party is a wet dream for the Tories.

In the context of this discussion perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Brexit vote and the subsequent looney-tunes runaway train being driven by May and Corbyn is perfectly sensible and reasonable. It's not at all a horseshoe of zealot right-wing freaks like Rees-Mogg and dishonest West haters like Corbyn and MacDonald carefully working together to ensure an economically damaging Brexit for their own narrow political purposes.

Any party leader who is 'playing it clever' by not getting involved in the Brexit mess is demonstrating that they are spectacularly unfit for office - and doing so with the defining issue of the next twenty or thirty years. We need a statesman or woman and instead we've got Wolfie Faquing Smith.

[hibsbollah]

Have you ever had any sustained involvement in politics rather than just talking about it? If you had you would know exactly what is meant.

We don't have GCSEs here - never have done.

There are many clarion calls for people who have been 'left behind by twentieth first century politics'. This isn't one of them. The notion - and the fact - that the extreme right and left eventually conspire on the far fringes for at least transitional purposes has been in common political usage since as early as the 1980s - certainly in the Trade Unions. It gained a formal label more recently.

As far as I can see the only people who don't want to redistribute wealth or do anything about power being in the hands of the few are those who are happy to conspire in a powerless, oppositionalist agenda safe in the knowledge that they can talk, look and sound radical without any actual danger of effecting change. The current Labour Party is a wet dream for the Tories.

In the context of this discussion perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Brexit vote and the subsequent looney-tunes runaway train being driven by May and Corbyn is perfectly sensible and reasonable. It's not at all a horseshoe of zealot right-wing freaks like Rees-Mogg and dishonest West haters like Corbyn and MacDonald carefully working together to ensure an economically damaging Brexit for their own narrow political purposes.

Any party leader who is 'playing it clever' by not getting involved in the Brexit mess is demonstrating that they are spectacularly unfit for office - and doing so with the defining issue of the next twenty or thirty years. We need a statesman or woman and instead we've got Wolfie Faquing Smith.

Yes, I worked in politics for a long time, at policy level and also at project delivery level, although ive spoken to people that are more qualified than me that know less, and people less qualified than me that know more. But i'll definitely call out things that I think are stupid regardless, such as the notion you describe about confluence between extreme right and left being in any way relevant to whats going on at Brexit level and in UK politics today.

Brexit is a Tory Party 'party'. You are aware Corbyn campaigned to Remain dont you? That he was the most visible pro-remain campaigner prior to the vote, as assessed by the LSE when looking at media coverage of the referendum? I have an email from his office prior to the referendum practically begging me to vote to stay in the EU. You are banging on as if he and the Tories were in cahoots. Its just total fantasy, and I think you are letting your violent dislike of him overtake your critical faculties. In fact, I think you KNOW that Brexit is solely a result of Cameron's crazy ego-driven mistake of trying to unite his fractured Party by calling a referendum he thought he'd win. And also, it is a result of the Leave vote. Thats a fact, that a UK wide party like Labour cant ignore. I accept that as an individual, Corbyn is probably extremely conflicted about the EU, in part because of the whole troika carry on and the imposition of neo liberal policies and breakup of state institutions imposed on Greece, just as an example. But he campaigned for Remain, and when the referendum was lost he's tried to steer a middle ground, as discussed before, of trying to placate two very different kinds of Labour voter. Corbyn is not a big player in the Brexit story.

And as ive said previously, I am mortified by the whole notion of Brexit and hope there are some more twists before 1st January 2022 (if that's the actual post transition date). Its not over yet.

[Hibbyradge]

https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, I worked in politics for a long time, at policy level and also at project delivery level, although ive spoken to people that are more qualified than me that know less, and people less qualified than me that know more. But i'll definitely call out things that I think are stupid regardless, such as the notion you describe about confluence between extreme right and left being in any way relevant to whats going on at Brexit level and in UK politics today.

Brexit is a Tory Party 'party'. You are aware Corbyn campaigned to Remain dont you? That he was the most visible pro-remain campaigner prior to the vote, as assessed by the LSE when looking at media coverage of the referendum? I have an email from his office prior to the referendum practically begging me to vote to stay in the EU. You are banging on as if he and the Tories were in cahoots. Its just total fantasy, and I think you are letting your violent dislike of him overtake your critical faculties. In fact, I think you KNOW that Brexit is solely a result of Cameron's crazy ego-driven mistake of trying to unite his fractured Party by calling a referendum he thought he'd win. And also, it is a result of the Leave vote. Thats a fact, that a UK wide party like Labour cant ignore. I accept that as an individual, Corbyn is probably extremely conflicted about the EU, in part because of the whole troika carry on and the imposition of neo liberal policies and breakup of state institutions imposed on Greece, just as an example. But he campaigned for Remain, and when the referendum was lost he's tried to steer a middle ground, as discussed before, of trying to placate two very different kinds of Labour voter. Corbyn is not a big player in the Brexit story.

And as ive said previously, I am mortified by the whole notion of Brexit and hope there are some more twists before 1st January 2022 (if that's the actual post transition date). Its not over yet.

Whilst I agree with most of that, I simply can't agree that Corbyn campaigned on anything before the referendum. He was sat firmly on the fence taking great care not to upset anyone either side.

[Hibbyradge]

Whilst I agree with most of that, I simply can't agree that Corbyn campaigned on anything before the referendum. He was sat firmly on the fence taking great care not to upset anyone either side.

He campaigned, alright.

It's just that his words lacked passion and conviction, and that he talked about issues which were of limited interest to the audience.

I heard him and I remember being hugely disappointed.

He actually said on TV that his support for staying in the EU was 7/10. That'll mobilise the electorate, right enough.

I would go as far as saying that his deliberately half hearted "support" for remain, had no positive effect. At best.

His current position, flying in the face of conference policies and membership opinion, is incredibly frustrating. Labour is allowing the Tories to do what they want.

If that's a short term political tactic helping the Party to win power and keep us in the EU, then I'll be happy and may even rejoin.

Unfortunately, I expect the worst.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes I do and so does Nicola Sturgeon. She regularly talks about delivering growth and within the existing powers. Actually they all do. So no-one and no party gets a pass.

Forgot to answer this. I don't think she really believes that (or if she does she's deluding herself). I think it's part of the SNP strategy to portray Scotland as already an all but fully functioning country with a government in waiting. I get why they do that but it still makes me :rolleyes: a fair bit.

[One Day Soon]

Forgot to answer this. I don't think she really believes that (or if she does she's deluding herself). I think it's part of the SNP strategy to portray Scotland as already an all but fully functioning country with a government in waiting. I get why they do that but it still makes me :rolleyes: a fair bit.


Cannot deal with this right now. I'm in TDD Purdah.

[JeMeSouviens]

Cannot deal with this right now. I'm in TDD Purdah.

Where's your commitment man? Tomato sauce crisps on white bread over the chance to stick it to Sturgeon. Poor show.

[ronaldo7]

As things start to heat up, it was always about the Irish border, until the next bump in the road.

https://t.co/2Gb94IqFab

[ronaldo7]

After the Tories rubbished the Scottish Governments analysis on the impacts of brexit as scaremongering, they finally release their own figures, and low, and behold. They're as bad as we thought.

The Tories have not got a ***** clue.

[Colr]

It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.

JC would like a union of soviet republics.

[JeMeSouviens]

After the Tories rubbished the Scottish Governments analysis on the impacts of brexit as scaremongering, they finally release their own figures, and low, and behold. They're as bad as we thought.

The Tories have not got a ***** clue.

They're actually worse! So much for the Scottish Tories' trumpeted influence at Westminster, they are clearly well out of the loop.

[IGRIGI]

They're actually worse! So much for the Scottish Tories' trumpeted influence at Westminster, they are clearly well out of the loop.

It's hilarious and infuriating at the same time that the DUP had May by the baws for NI yet the Scottish Tories with more MPs sat with their thumbs up their arse.

[ronaldo7]

Please stay, they said. Lead, don't leave, they said.

Now, get into that room and don't come out until you're told. :rolleyes:

https://t.co/7bCMEDDvO1

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There were rumours doing the rounds earlier that the PM has "capitulated" to her right wing colleagues and is now seriously considering leaving with no deal?

If thats true (big if), surely to god its just a negotiation position/ tactic amd not a considered position?

[Bristolhibby]

There were rumours doing the rounds earlier that the PM has "capitulated" to her right wing colleagues and is now seriously considering leaving with no deal?

If thats true (big if), surely to god its just a negotiation position/ tactic amd not a considered position?

Have we not been here before? I refer you to the Island of Ireland and the good Friday agreement.

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Have we not been here before? I refer you to the Island of Ireland and the good Friday agreement.

J

Possibly, that seems like a long time ago!

[lord bunberry]

There were rumours doing the rounds earlier that the PM has "capitulated" to her right wing colleagues and is now seriously considering leaving with no deal?

If thats true (big if), surely to god its just a negotiation position/ tactic amd not a considered position?
I really can’t see how we can leave with any sort of deal under the Tories. The right wing of the party aren’t going to be happy with any deal, and while they hold most of the power, they don’t have enough power to force a no deal scenario through parliament. There has to be a general election.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I really can’t see how we can leave with any sort of deal under the Tories. The right wing of the party aren’t going to be happy with any deal, and while they hold most of the power, they don’t have enough power to force a no deal scenario through parliament. There has to be a general election.

Yeah, wr couldnt have hand-written a more perfect scenario for chaos if we were writing a play about a slightly far-fetched political scenario that brought down a country or something like that.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-confirms-brexit-strategy-as-pandering-to-shouty-northern-*******s-20171218141137

[lord bunberry]

Yeah, wr couldnt have hand-written a more perfect scenario for chaos if we were writing a play about a slightly far-fetched political scenario that brought down a country or something like that.
That’s what it looks like from the outside looking in. I’d love to be a fly on the wall at a cabinet meeting. Who’s really in charge of the Tory Party? May is like a hearts manager after a derby defeat, she’s living on borrowed time.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That’s what it looks like from the outside looking in. I’d love to be a fly on the wall at a cabinet meeting. Who’s really in charge of the Tory Party? May is like a hearts manager after a derby defeat, she’s living on borrowed time.

Agreed. She seems to be the closest thing they have to a consensus choice in that party. Both sides probably think she is still a bit maleable, hence she isnt pushed out because both wings fear that the alternative could be worse. In that sense, i suppose it could be argued she is doing quite well at staying upright on that particular tightrope.

The consequences for tge country is the weakest leader ive ever seen by quite some distance, and political paralysis at a time when we can ill-afford it. Its reallu poor stuff, and if the chaos does translate into some shambolic exit from the EU, i suspect a Scotxit will not come long after (or would that be a Scoentry?)

[xyz23jc]

Agreed. She seems to be the closest thing they have to a consensus choice in that party. Both sides probably think she is still a bit maleable, hence she isnt pushed out because both wings fear that the alternative could be worse. In that sense, i suppose it could be argued she is doing quite well at staying upright on that particular tightrope.

The consequences for tge country is the weakest leader ive ever seen by quite some distance, and political paralysis at a time when we can ill-afford it. Its reallu poor stuff, and if the chaos does translate into some shambolic exit from the EU, i suspect a Scotxit will not come long after (or would that be a Scoentry?)

Wid it no be a ScoOot or a ScotFree anyhoo! :greengrin:na na:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Wid it no be a ScoOot or a ScotFree anyhoo! :greengrin:na na:

😁

[Bristolhibby]

I believe it’s called Independence.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Agreed. She seems to be the closest thing they have to a consensus choice in that party. Both sides probably think she is still a bit maleable, hence she isnt pushed out because both wings fear that the alternative could be worse. In that sense, i suppose it could be argued she is doing quite well at staying upright on that particular tightrope.

The consequences for tge country is the weakest leader ive ever seen by quite some distance, and political paralysis at a time when we can ill-afford it. Its reallu poor stuff, and if the chaos does translate into some shambolic exit from the EU, i suspect a Scotxit will not come long after (or would that be a Scoentry?)

:agree:

The Conservatives have historically been good at doing their dirty work in private and presenting a united front to the public, whilst finding a weak point to exploit in their opponents, hence their dominance in UK politics in the twentieth century.

That dynamic seems to have been lost to an extent, probably originating in the deposal of Thatcher and then magnified in the Major years by the anti-Euros. My sense is that Cameron papered over the cracks but that was always a sticking plaster. There's no denying now how irrevocably split they are as a party. As with any ideological difference, it seems to drive people to extremes.

In many respects, they probably need a May just now. Someone who is straddling that internal divide, albeit clumsily. Replacing her with someone strongly advocating Brexit or non-Brexit would split the party.

The true measure of how weak they are is that they are unable to attack Corbyn on Europe. He's a diehard leaver leading a party where more members voted to remain in Europe than voted him in as leader. That would be a rich and ruthless seam to exploit under normal circumstances but the Tory schism means they can't go there.

[hibsbollah]

He's a diehard leaver

Factually incorrect, although if you read a lot of Nick Cohen or similar hysterics you could be forgiven for believing it. Corbyn has always been tepid about the EU project but understands the economic benefits its brought and campaigned hard for Remain as did most of his MPs. It beggars belief that we have to keep going over this again and again.

[Mibbes Aye]

Factually incorrect, although if you read a lot of Nick Cohen or similar hysterics you could be forgiven for believing it. Corbyn has always been tepid about the EU project but understands the economic benefits its brought and campaigned hard for Remain as did most of his MPs. It beggars belief that we have to keep going over this again and again.

No it's not.

He campaigned for leaving in the 1975 referendum. He opposed the ratification of Maastricht and Lisbon and backed a leave referendum in 2011. In the 2016 referendum, he chose not to publicly back a 'remain' vote and he never 'campaigned hard', that's a joke.

No hysterics here, just someone who knows their party history. As I recall, you posted on here saying Labour hadn't done anything progressive in government since Attlee. I posted several dozen progressive Acts under Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown and you never replied.

I don't think Labour is your party, but I get you are a Corbyn fanboy and maybe signed up as a consequence. He didn't campaign for leaving, only because that would have ripped the party even further open.

More Labour Party members want to stay in Europe than voted for Corbyn.

Why isn't he accepting the democratic will and fighting for what Labour supporters explicitly want?

[hibsbollah]

No it's not.

He campaigned for leaving in the 1975 referendum. He opposed the ratification of Maastricht and Lisbon and backed a leave referendum in 2011. In the 2016 referendum, he chose not to publicly back a 'remain' vote and he never 'campaigned hard', that's a joke.

No hysterics here, just someone who knows their party history. As I recall, you posted on here saying Labour hadn't done anything progressive in government since Attlee. I posted several dozen progressive Acts under Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown and you never replied.

I don't think Labour is your party, but I get you are a Corbyn fanboy and maybe signed up as a consequence. He didn't campaign for leaving, only because that would have ripped the party even further open.

More Labour Party members want to stay in Europe than voted for Corbyn.

Why isn't he accepting the democratic will and fighting for what Labour supporters explicitly want?

:faf: Pathetic response. Firstly, Corbyn. I'm not talking about 1975,im talking about 2016, when he campaigned hard for it. I know the Blairite narrative is that he deliberately campaigned to lose, but I watched it very closely because I'm more interested in politics than you are, trust me. And your Blairrite narrative is bullcrap.

Secondly, the personal stuff. I can't remember the actual 'progressive acts' post I made you're referring to, but it was years ago. It'd be fun to dredge up the rantings and ravings you posted about Corbyn when he inherited the leadership, full of totally inaccurate predictions about cataclysmic maasive defeat, calling him a 'fud' repeatedly and so on, but your months of grumpy silence for months after the general election speaks volumes. You felt a bit silly. I get it.

And do me a favour and leave off the 'Labours not your party' and 'corbyn fanboy' chat. It just makes you sound a bit of a dick.

The Tories caused Brexit. Corbyn didn't.

[Mibbes Aye]

:faf: Pathetic response. Firstly, Corbyn. I'm not talking about 1975,im talking about 2016, when he campaigned hard for it. I know the Blairite narrative is that he deliberately campaigned to lose, but I watched it very closely because I'm more interested in politics than you are, trust me. And your Blairrite narrative is bullcrap.

Secondly, the personal stuff. I can't remember the actual 'progressive acts' post I made you're referring to, but it was years ago. It'd be fun to dredge up the rantings and ravings you posted about Corbyn when he inherited the leadership, full of totally inaccurate predictions about cataclysmic maasive defeat, calling him a 'fud' repeatedly and so on, but your months of grumpy silence for months after the general election speaks volumes. You felt a bit silly. I get it.

And do me a favour and leave off the 'Labours not your party' and 'corbyn fanboy' chat. It just makes you sound a bit of a dick.

The Tories caused Brexit.

Is this what you're reduced to?

[hibsbollah]

Is this what you're reduced to?

:dunno:

Care to elaborate? I think you are a) wrong and b) being classless in the way you engage with people you disagree with (ie-me). If you want to talk politics, fine.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn made it clear that if we stayed in the EU, it should be changed.

Superficially he argued to stay in the EU, but at the same time he was critical of it.

That's not campaigning hard.

That's pointing out faults which, in practical terms, helped the leave campaign.

[Mibbes Aye]

:dunno:

I think you are being classless in the way you engage with people you disagree with .


:faf: Pathetic response.

I watched it very closely because I'm more interested in politics than you are, trust me. And your Blairrite narrative is bullcrap.

It'd be fun to dredge up the rantings and ravings you posted about Corbyn when he inherited the leadership, full of totally inaccurate predictions about cataclysmic maasive defeat, calling him a 'fud' repeatedly and so on, but your months of grumpy silence for months after the general election speaks volumes. You felt a bit silly. I get it.

It just makes you sound a bit of a dick.



Are you drunk?

And are you accusing me of being 'classless' - that's a socialist compliment :greengrin

I've posted your comments that led to me saying "Is this what you're reduced to?" because they're not really debate, are they? They're just insults.

If you want to dredge my posts feel free. I know I never called Corbyn a 'fud' and I certainly didn't stop posting after the GE. Are you mistaking me for someone else?

I like your comment where you say you are more interested in politics than me, ..."Trust me...". I guess we will never know, but I think we both got our original degrees in politics, just going by what's been posted so apologies if wrong.

You are better than the personal insults, I suspect, and I reckon you're probably good company for a pint.

But you never did answer my questions about why Corbyn won't follow what his members want or whether you joined up on the back of Momentum - and my point about what Labour has done since Attlee wasn't 'years ago'. Surely you can recognise the great steps towards equality, opportunity and social justice that were made under the four Labour PMs who followed Clem?

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn made it clear that if we stayed in the EU, it should be changed.

Superficially he argued to stay in the EU, but at the same time he was critical of it.

That's not campaigning hard.

That's pointing out faults which, in practical terms, helped the leave campaign.

I disagree. Particularly the last sentence. Most people are conflicted about some aspects of Europe. Do we really think the council of ministers, for example, is a paragon of democracy? The way Corbyn answered the 'How enthusiastic are you about Europe' question as '7/10' was politically sensible, honest, and probably likely to endear him to an objective Remain voter than if he had said 10/10. Europe DOES need reform. But pointing that out, whilst at the same time saying you believe in staying in because things like Employment Rights and Equality legislation are far more important than any negatives, doesn't mean you are helping the leave campaign.

I've already referenced the LSE study on Corbyns campaign visibility and the contents of my inbox during that period in previous posts so I won't repeat myself on that.

Turning your question around, do you think the EU should continue exactly as it is, without any reform at all? And do you think if a remain campaigner had said that during the campaign he wouldnt have been completely slaughtered by the media?

[Hibbyradge]

I disagree. Particularly the last sentence. Most people are conflicted about some aspects of Europe. Do we really think the council of ministers, for example, is a paragon of democracy? The way Corbyn answered the 'How enthusiastic are you about Europe' question as '7/10' was politically sensible, honest, and probably likely to endear him to an objective Remain voter than if he had said 10/10. Europe DOES need reform. But pointing that out, whilst at the same time saying you believe in staying in because things like Employment Rights and Equality legislation are far more important than any negatives, doesn't mean you are helping the leave campaign.

I've already referenced the LSE study on Corbyns campaign visibility and the contents of my inbox during that period in previous posts so I won't repeat myself on that.

Turning your question around, do you think the EU should continue exactly as it is, without any reform at all? And do you think if a remain campaigner had said that during the campaign he wouldnt have been completely slaughtered by the media?

If I'm trying to sell you my house, car, a job or a political and economic union, I would point out the good aspects only, regardless if I thought that there were faults. I can't think of anyone who would do differently because they don't want to put the buyer off.

Corbyn didn't do that. He may have been explaining to those on the left who had qualms, but he most certainly was not encouraging the majority. The effect of what he said was the exact opposite.

To answer your final question, I would have said something along the lines of, "While the EU may not be perfect, yet, it's absolutely vital that we stay a part of it because of all the benefits it offers us", and then I'd list them.

He's a politician. He could have easily done that and a lot more succinctly than I just did.

But he chose not to.

[hibsbollah]

Are you drunk?

And are you accusing me of being 'classless' - that's a socialist compliment :greengrin

I've posted your comments that led to me saying "Is this what you're reduced to?" because they're not really debate, are they? They're just insults.

If you want to dredge my posts feel free. I know I never called Corbyn a 'fud' and I certainly didn't stop posting after the GE. Are you mistaking me for someone else?

I like your comment where you say you are more interested in politics than me, ..."Trust me...". I guess we will never know, but I think we both got our original degrees in politics, just going by what's been posted so apologies if wrong.

You are better than the personal insults, I suspect, and I reckon you're probably good company for a pint.

But you never did answer my questions about why Corbyn won't follow what his members want or whether you joined up on the back of Momentum - and my point about what Labour has done since Attlee wasn't 'years ago'. Surely you can recognise the great steps towards equality, opportunity and social justice that were made under the four Labour PMs who followed Clem?

I was politics and languages, so you're half right.

I don't have a problem with answering direct questions, but I remember you bringing up the Attlee thing during the election, and I remember being irritated, thinking 'that jolly green ****ing giant felly is one poster who always seems to avoid answering MY questions!' Pot ****ing kettle, and so on :greengrin But... To answer your question in a roundabout way, over the years I have been consistently disappointed by the Labour Party in Government. And since Attlee I would say no Labour Govt has done itself justice in sticking to the spirit of its mandate. Small steps but disappointing ones. That doesn't make it not 'my party'.

And the Why Doesn't He Do What His Members Want question? Because although Labour members wanted to Remain, They Lost. We Lost. And now he has to balance what the party want with what the wider country wanted. And sadly but crucially, how the press would react and how the people that read that press would react. The country isn't split along left right lines when it comes to Brexit. Its more about young/old, educated/uneducated, urban/rural. Traveled/not traveled. Labour can't represent that Subtlety properly. But you know that, I think, you don't need me to answer your question. You just don't like the answer!

I found your earlier post just as insulting as mine (being a 'Corbyn fan boy' is way worse than being a dick, isn't it?!). I think you have a habit of reading posts and making assumptions about me as a person. Im actually fairly neutral about Corbyn as a candidate, fairly unspectacular as a public speaker,(although has grown to the role in the dispatch box), not serious enough about the media, etc. It's the policy I'm interested in. Probably shouldn't have called you out for sounding like a dick :greengrin No permanent offence caused either way I trust.

Anyway, I'll bow out now, thread hijack really, what Labour does or doesn't say about Brexit isnt the main event, its a Tory show because they're the ones in power.

[hibsbollah]

If I'm trying to sell you my house, car, a job or a political and economic union, I would point out the good aspects only, regardless if I thought that there were faults. I can't think of anyone who would do differently because they don't want to put the buyer off.

Corbyn didn't do that. He may have been explaining to those on the left who had qualms, but he most certainly was not encouraging the majority. The effect of what he said was the exact opposite.

To answer your final question, I would have said something along the lines of, "While the EU may not be perfect, yet, it's absolutely vital that we stay a part of it because of all the benefits it offers us", and then I'd list them.

He's a politician. He could have easily done that and a lot more succinctly than I just did.

But he chose not to.

I think he did say something very close to that :dunno: 'it's not perfect but because of the massive benefits to working people it's vital we stay in' or something. I'd rather he also referenced the hundreds of millions of ERDF ESF and Objective One status money over the years being absolutely vital to deprived areas like Merseyside North East England and Cornwall, all of whom subsequently votes Leave, but he didn't.

But maybe he just wasn't very effective sometimes? I mean, it's not like he's got perfect judgement. If he wasnt, a lot of other political luminaries werent either. Blair, Mandelson, Kenneth Clarke, lots of other Remain big hitters. Why are they never castigated for running a useless campaign and it being all their fault?

It's all about perception.

[Hibbyradge]

I think he did say something very close to that :dunno: 'it's not perfect but because of the massive benefits to working people it's vital we stay in' or something. I'd rather he also referenced the hundreds of millions of ERDF ESF and Objective One status money over the years being absolutely vital to deprived areas like Merseyside North East England and Cornwall, all of whom subsequently votes Leave, but he didn't.

But maybe he just wasn't very effective sometimes? I mean, it's not like he's got perfect judgement. If he wasnt, a lot of other political luminaries werent either. Blair, Mandelson, Kenneth Clarke, lots of other Remain big hitters. Why are they never castigated for running a useless campaign and it being all their fault?

It's all about perception.

Corbyn was the Labour leader. People wanted to hear his views.

At best, Blair and Mandelson were yesterday's news. At worst they were toxic and I don't know what profile Clarke was given.

I heard Corbyn several times and on each occasion I was frustrated and disappointed. You will say that I was predisposed to think badly of him, but that wouldn't be true regarding the EU referendum.

I don't think he's good for the Labour Party and I don't think he'll ever win a GE, but that doesn't mean I disagree with all his political views.

I would have liked to have heard an unambiguous and strong pro-EU message from him, I was desperate for it, but he didn't give one.

[Mibbes Aye]

I was politics and languages, so you're half right.

I don't have a problem with answering direct questions, but I remember you bringing up the Attlee thing during the election, and I remember being irritated, thinking 'that jolly green ****ing giant felly is one poster who always seems to avoid answering MY questions!' Pot ****ing kettle, and so on :greengrin But... To answer your question in a roundabout way, over the years I have been consistently disappointed by the Labour Party in Government. And since Attlee I would say no Labour Govt has done itself justice in sticking to the spirit of its mandate. Small steps but disappointing ones. That doesn't make it not 'my party'.

And the Why Doesn't He Do What His Members Want question? Because although Labour members wanted to Remain, They Lost. We Lost. And now he has to balance what the party want with what the wider country wanted. And sadly but crucially, how the press would react and how the people that read that press would react. The country isn't split along left right lines when it comes to Brexit. Its more about young/old, educated/uneducated, urban/rural. Traveled/not traveled. Labour can't represent that Subtlety properly. But you know that, I think, you don't need me to answer your question. You just don't like the answer!

I found your earlier post just as insulting as mine (being a 'Corbyn fan boy' is way worse than being a dick, isn't it?!). I think you have a habit of reading posts and making assumptions about me as a person. Im actually fairly neutral about Corbyn as a candidate, fairly unspectacular as a public speaker,(although has grown to the role in the dispatch box), not serious enough about the media, etc. It's the policy I'm interested in. Probably shouldn't have called you out for sounding like a dick :greengrin No permanent offence caused either way I trust.

Anyway, I'll bow out now, thread hijack really, what Labour does or doesn't say about Brexit isnt the main event, its a Tory show because they're the ones in power.

I asked a simple question as to why the Labour leader wouldn't respect the majority of his members and follow their will democratically.

You've yet to answer that.

You've also failed to acknowledge the good deeds of the four Labour PMs that followed Attlee. I suspect you can't because you talk about "small steps"when in fact they've enacted legislation that changed our country.

Just out of interest, did you join the Labour Party recently?

[hibsbollah]

I asked a simple question as to why the Labour leader wouldn't respect the majority of his members and follow their will democratically.

You've yet to answer that.

You've also failed to acknowledge the good deeds of the four Labour PMs that followed Attlee. I suspect you can't because you talk about "small steps"when in fact they've enacted legislation that changed our country.

Just out of interest, did you join the Labour Party recently?

Christ :rolleyes: I did answer your first question, fairly clearly. In fact, it's the section of my answer that you put in bold, so I'm baffled that youre trying to call me out for not doing so. It's a complicated answer, because it's a complex question. But maybe you didn't bother reading it properly?

Im not acknowledging the 'good deeds' (what is this wording anyway? We're not talking alms to the poor or curing leprosy) because I don't know what to what specific legislation you're referring. I've told you post war Labour Governments have, in my view, failed to live up to expectations laid on them. That's my opinion.

No I didn't join recently. But it's a cheeky question, because it's not 'just out of interest'. It presumes that you have the right to judge my loyalty to something. And you absolutely don't. I actually think you're desperate to pigeon hole me as something, in this case as an 'entryist', and hence a'trot' or something similar, because it avoids having to deal with my opinions.

Let the rest of the folk on here get on with discussing Brexit, eh no?

[hibsbollah]

I would have liked to have heard an unambiguous and strong pro-EU message from him, I was desperate for it, but he didn't give one.

Yeah, me too.

[steakbake]

Corbyn has been against the EU almost for his entire political life. If he hadn’t been leader of the Labour Party at the time of the referendum, he would have most likely thrown his lot in behind Leave, like Hoey, Stewart and Galloway and other Lexit types. All this dissembling over being in “a” customs union not “the” customs union and a jobs first Brexit is absurd. The seven tests is a mirage. Starmer talks a good game but his hands are tied by party policy. When Brexit happens, it will be with the assistance of, not in spite of Labour.

[ronaldo7]

The Better together mob couldn't be bothered to turn up at a meeting in Kirkcaldy to discuss the impact of Brexit to Scotland.

Maybe wee Hugh Gaffney was out having a Chinese meal.

https://t.co/B96p4pLt9N

[Hibbyradge]

Nearly 2 years since the referendum and we're only at the suggestion stage! :bitchy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43131446

[Ryan69]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

Will save a good few billion too.


We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

Will save a good few billion too.


We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.

:rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

Will save a good few billion too.


We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.

Does it?

High-tariff imports means the UK consumer pays more. High-tariff exports means the UK producer loses out through reduced competitiveness.

[Lendo]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

Will save a good few billion too.


We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.


This one of those "fishing" posts surely?!? If not it is genuinely one of the most idiotic things I've ever read.

[Ryan69]

This one of those "fishing" posts surely?!? If not it is genuinely one of the most idiotic things I've ever read.


Let me guess....Your a remoaner?

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

How do you work that out? Requiring crippling tarriffs with every country we want to trade with is better than a negotiated deal

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

The EU are not belittling the UK with demands, they are working for the best arrangement for the member states as one member has chosen to abandon all agreements

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

Ah yes, the days of 'Empire' let's go back to that shall we? as for unelected buffoons, they seem to be doing alright in the negotiations, a lot better than 'our' team

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

CWG already answered this one.

Will save a good few billion too.

So long as it goes to the NHS as promised, eh?

We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.

I'll agree, the best tellies etc. come from the far east, because we certainly can't manufacture the things we used to do

[JeMeSouviens]

I see that some of the core Brexit crowd are floating ditching the Good Friday Agreement in order to get their nice hard Brexit. :rolleyes:

****s.

[JeMeSouviens]

Surely leaving with no deal would be the best option?

Who are the EU to belittle the UK with their demands.

We survived and prospered long enough before these unelected buffoons arrived.

If they want to impose high tariffs on goods from them...we do exactly the same! Then it cancels it out surely.

Will save a good few billion too.


We get more goods of better quality from Asia and America anyway.

1. seriously?
2. they are not belittling anyone, they are setting out the terms for access to *their* market.
3. but in those days over 30 of our nearest neighbours hadn't organised themselves into a free trade area for goods and services
4. 2 wrongs don't make a right you know and in this case, protectionism on both sides will just lead to a decrease in trade, everyone will lose but the proportional impact on the UK will be worse
5. no it won't
6. no we don't

[IGRIGI]

It will be interesting to see if Italy's election outcome will have an effect on negotiations.

The Centre Right is pretty much guaranteed victory if the polls are to be believed and it is neck and neck between Berlusconi's Forza Italia and Salvini's Lega Nord as to who will be the biggest within the coalition. Lega Nord are big Eurosceptics and would push for an Italian exit if they don't get the necessary reforms and changes in the EU.

[Hibbyradge]

Let me guess....Your a remoaner?

What an ignorant remark.

[Mibbes Aye]

Poor PMQs from Corbyn today. He went for all his six questions on Brexit yet he achieved the remarkable result of making May sound more assured, which takes some doing.

PMQs is theatre but Corbyn was slow and ponderous. He ended up with silly ad hominems towards Boris Johnson, which didn't even end up in a question and gave May an easy scoring point.

I thought Andrew Sparrow, the Guardian political columnist who covers PMQs was spot on.

Someone with the stature of Robin Cook would be skewering this government on Brexit.

And he wasn't even claiming to be Labour Party Leader when he was roasting the Tories from the Opposition Bench.

[Lendo]

Let me guess....Your a remoaner?

yep

[Lendo]

What an ignorant remark.

I’m still not 100% sure this is real. The awful grammar and the easily refuted points make me think it’s someone just taking the piss.

[Hibbyradge]

I’m still not 100% sure this is real. The awful grammar and the easily refuted points make me think it’s someone just taking the piss.

Every chance. I hadn't read the poster's previous stupid remarks when I responded to the childish "remoaner" name calling.

There are a few names we see for a while who post clearly controversial remarks, but then they disappear again.

They're also never seen on the MB at the same time. They must know what they're doing otherwise the admins would have them hunted.

That time will come.

[IWasThere2016]

Poor PMQs from Corbyn today. He went for all his six questions on Brexit yet he achieved the remarkable result of making May sound more assured, which takes some doing.

PMQs is theatre but Corbyn was slow and ponderous. He ended up with silly ad hominems towards Boris Johnson, which didn't even end up in a question and gave May an easy scoring point.

I thought Andrew Sparrow, the Guardian political columnist who covers PMQs was spot on.

Someone with the stature of Robin Cook would be skewering this government on Brexit.

And he wasn't even claiming to be Labour Party Leader when he was roasting the Tories from the Opposition Bench.

:agree: A great loss to British Politics.

[Bristolhibby]

This one of those "fishing" posts surely?!? If not it is genuinely one of the most idiotic things I've ever read.

I think he is serious!

😱

[HiBremian]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/4900974c8de42647b5788409fae700d6.jpg

I guess now that the Post Office are issuing the stamps, we all need to accept that Brexit is happening.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Good piece in the guardian today about how if labour shift their position to pro-customs union (and even pro single-market?) Then in a brilliantly ironic twist, it would be the left of the tory party whose MPs would all of a sudden be the power brokers.

Starting to sound a bit more promising?

[HiBremian]

Good piece in the guardian today about how if labour shift their position to pro-customs union (and even pro single-market?) Then in a brilliantly ironic twist, it would be the left of the tory party whose MPs would all of a sudden be the power brokers.

Starting to sound a bit more promising?

It’s interesting too that Keir Starmer is quoted as accepting single market membership if the EU tweek their immigration policy. I’m not someone who blogs very often, but On the day the article 50 letter was delivered I had a look at the arithmetic of MPs’ personal views on remain/leave. Even before the 2017 election there was a strong remain majority.

http://richardgrassick.com/remainer-brexiteer-tactics


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s interesting too that Keir Starmer is quoted as accepting single market membership if the EU tweek their immigration policy. I’m not someone who blogs very often, but On the day the article 50 letter was delivered I had a look at the arithmetic of MPs’ personal views on remain/leave. Even before the 2017 election there was a strong remain majority.

http://richardgrassick.com/remainer-brexiteer-tactics


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Interesting read Richard.

[Hibrandenburg]

Watched the Corbyn speech earlier and can't help but think his vision on Brexit is no different to May's in that he also wants to have his cake and eat it. Can't help but think the Tories and Labour are fighting about which deal with the EU will be least damaging to the country. That says everything you need to know about this whole mess.

[hibsbollah]

Watched the Corbyn speech earlier and can't help but think his vision on Brexit is no different to May's in that he also wants to have his cake and eat it. Can't help but think the Tories and Labour are fighting about which deal with the EU will be least damaging to the country. That says everything you need to know about this whole mess.

Its a lot different to May's. She has never confirmed a definite intention of wanting a customs union as favoured option, from what i can remember. I'm exceptionally pleased with his position, which will undoubtedly not be well received by Dennis Skinner and the like, who will need to show their constituents, at least publically, a eurosceptic face.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/labour-wins-plaudits-from-uk-business-after-brexit-speech

[hibsbollah]

It’s interesting too that Keir Starmer is quoted as accepting single market membership if the EU tweek their immigration policy. I’m not someone who blogs very often, but On the day the article 50 letter was delivered I had a look at the arithmetic of MPs’ personal views on remain/leave. Even before the 2017 election there was a strong remain majority.

http://richardgrassick.com/remainer-brexiteer-tactics


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, thats accurate :agree: and shows the schism in the Tory party on the European question, and also the divergence in the Labour Party between its supporters and its elected representatives. Most Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted Leave, but only ten of those MPs (something like 4%) are Leavers!

https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6

[Hibbyradge]

Most Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted Remain, but only ten of those MPs (something like 4%) are Remainers!

https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6

Have you not confused your leavers and remainers, there?

You've certainly confused me.

[hibsbollah]

Have you not confused your leavers and remainers, there?

You've certainly confused me.

:blush: Sorry, edited now :greengrin hopefully you got the point.

[Hibbyradge]

:blush: Sorry, edited now :greengrin hopefully you got the point.

I did although I thought maybe I'd missed something.

We'll see how the party's policy sits with the electorate over the coming weeks.

I think a sizeable chunk of leavers have changed their minds so the fall out from those constituencies may be less than their MOs fear.

I imagine that Labour carried out comprehensive polling in advance of today's speech.

[Hibrandenburg]

Its a lot different to May's. She has never confirmed a definite intention of wanting a customs union as favoured option, from what i can remember. I'm exceptionally pleased with his position, which will undoubtedly not be well received by Dennis Skinner and the like, who will need to show their constituents, at least publically, a eurosceptic face.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/labour-wins-plaudits-from-uk-business-after-brexit-speech

It's different in content but the presumption that the EU are going to make a bespoke agreement with the UK that will allow both free trade and restriction of free movement is utopian.

[Bristolhibby]

Listened to 5Live yesterday and had some Hard Brexit guy and Labour for leave.

Who were complaining about a halfway Brexit, that they said Jezza was advocating.

One texted pointed out that Brexit itself was voted 52% to 48% so it imply a that the resulting Brexit should be a halfway house.

Suits me.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

Listened to 5Live yesterday and had some Hard Brexit guy and Labour for leave.

Who were complaining about a halfway Brexit, that they said Jezza was advocating.

One texted pointed out that Brexit itself was voted 52% to 48% so it imply a that the resulting Brexit should be a halfway house.

Suits me.

J

Seems to me that most politicians are forgetting that the EU really don't care what the U.K. wants or what kind of Brexit they would like. From an EU perspective there are a couple of options on the table and the U.K. will have to choose one. That Corbyn now also seems to think that some kind of bespoke agreement can be made or that the U.K. can pick n mix what parts of the EU membership it would like to keep is worrying. I think Corbyn probably knows this and his speech yesterday was simply trying to drive a further wedge between pro and contra EU Tories.

[Bristolhibby]

Seems to me that most politicians are forgetting that the EU really don't care what the U.K. wants or what kind of Brexit they would like. From an EU perspective there are a couple of options on the table and the U.K. will have to choose one. That Corbyn now also seems to think that some kind of bespoke agreement can be made or that the U.K. can pick n mix what parts of the EU membership it would like to keep is worrying. I think Corbyn probably knows this and his speech yesterday was simply trying to drive a further wedge between pro and contra EU Tories.

A Brexit in name only works for me. If it keeps little Englander distracted.

It also keeps the Good Friday Agreement alive.

It will also quash the border issue for Indy2, as Ireland / Northern Ireland will have already provided a workable answer.

IScotland getting a fast track back in to the EU.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

A Brexit in name only works for me. If it keeps little Englander distracted.

It also keeps the Good Friday Agreement alive.

It will also quash the border issue for Indy2, as Ireland / Northern Ireland will have already provided a workable answer.

IScotland getting a fast track back in to the EU.

J

Sorry BH but the "Little Englander" may be poorly educated but they're not completely stupid. The scenario you paint would only lead to a further drift to the right and that would spell disaster. All sorts of horrible ĺittle creatures like Farage and worse would find themselves swept to the forefront of British politics.

[Bristolhibby]

Sorry BH but the "Little Englander" may be poorly educated but they're not completely stupid. The scenario you paint would only lead to a further drift to the right and that would spell disaster. All sorts of horrible ĺittle creatures like Farage and worse would find themselves swept to the forefront of British politics.

Remember for every Brexit voter down here, there’s almost one of me to match them.

It’s not all Brexit down here, despite the 53-47 split to leave. So all is not lost.
For me the vote result shows compromise is required in the solution. Not hard over either way. A soft Brexit would respect the will of the people. The Norway/Switzerland model that was oft touted.

A Hard Brexit would not be reflective of the 48% of the population who wanted to stay anyway.

This is not digital.

J

[Glory Lurker]

Looks like the EU paper being released tomorrow is going to bring NI back to the fore of deliberations.

[Colr]

Remember for every Brexit voter down here, there’s almost one of me to match them.

It’s not all Brexit down here, despite the 53-47 split to leave. So all is not lost.
For me the vote result shows compromise is required in the solution. Not hard over either way. A soft Brexit would respect the will of the people. The Norway/Switzerland model that was oft touted.

A Hard Brexit would not be reflective of the 48% of the population who wanted to stay anyway.

This is not digital.

J

By pursuing hard brexit, i think the tories are signing their own electoral death warrant.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Remember for every Brexit voter down here, there’s almost one of me to match them.

It’s not all Brexit down here, despite the 53-47 split to leave. So all is not lost.
For me the vote result shows compromise is required in the solution. Not hard over either way. A soft Brexit would respect the will of the people. The Norway/Switzerland model that was oft touted.

A Hard Brexit would not be reflective of the 48% of the population who wanted to stay anyway.

This is not digital.

J

Agree with this. There is a mandate to leave (unfortunately) but it is not the thumping, settled will. The consensus would therefore surely be around a Norway style situation?

The EU dont really care because they are putting the politics of the EU ahead of the economics of free trade etc (as is their right to do).

However, i have to say i do understand the point that a halfway house is the worst of all options, because being able to do deals with the rest of the world will be one of the Brexit benefits.

Leaving aside the remain/leave discussion, i think what angers me so much is that our govt have done such a bad job negotiating. The EU have a firm position, and for good or ill they are sticking to it.

Wr need a govt with a clear vision, who can then work from that - id have more respect for our govt if they actually did tell the EU whistle, broke off negotiations and told them they arent getting anymore money after we leave - at leadt it eould show some conviction and a clear plan.

At tge moment we have the worst of all negotiating positions because we cannot use our strengths, and are magnifying oir weaknesses.

Total effing balls-up.

[IGRIGI]

They need May out pronto, couldn't fight her way out a wet paper bag and she's getting pummelled from all angles (apologies for the images that brings up).

I'd honestly prefer a hard Brexit government led by Farage and Rees Mogg that had the balls to negotiate hard with the EU.

[Bristolhibby]

They need May out pronto, couldn't fight her way out a wet paper bag and she's getting pummelled from all angles (apologies for the images that brings up).

I'd honestly prefer a hard Brexit government led by Farage and Rees Mogg that had the balls to negotiate hard with the EU.

😱

[ronaldo7]

I see the Scottish Tories, have done the job for their London masters, and voted against the continuity bill at Holyrood.

Standing up for Scotland. 😃

[IGRIGI]

I see the Scottish Tories, have done the job for their London masters, and voted against the continuity bill at Holyrood.

Standing up for Scotland. 😃

People go all snowflake like when the word quisling is used in regards to unionists however for that shower of ***** it's the only adequate word.

[Bristolhibby]

People go all snowflake like when the word quisling is used in regards to unionists however for that shower of ***** it's the only adequate word.

The clues in their name “The Conservative and Unionist Party”.

They will conserve the status quo (which normally and historically preserves the advantage and privileges of the establishment) and Conserve the Union, to the detriment of anything else.

They are natuatally a party of fear. Fear change, fear difference, fear Europe.

Conservatives the world over need to realise that their Western democracies are generally good places to live. The world changes, slowly but surely, and “they” are not out to get you.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

I see the Scottish Tories, have done the job for their London masters, and voted against the continuity bill at Holyrood.

Standing up for Scotland. 😃

Did Labs & Libs vote with the SNP then? Colour me amazed! :confused:

[ronaldo7]

Did Labs & Libs vote with the SNP then? Colour me amazed! :confused:

Yup, and the Greens. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

Agree with this. There is a mandate to leave (unfortunately) but it is not the thumping, settled will. The consensus would therefore surely be around a Norway style situation?

The EU dont really care because they are putting the politics of the EU ahead of the economics of free trade etc (as is their right to do).

However, i have to say i do understand the point that a halfway house is the worst of all options, because being able to do deals with the rest of the world will be one of the Brexit benefits.

Leaving aside the remain/leave discussion, i think what angers me so much is that our govt have done such a bad job negotiating. The EU have a firm position, and for good or ill they are sticking to it.

Wr need a govt with a clear vision, who can then work from that - id have more respect for our govt if they actually did tell the EU whistle, broke off negotiations and told them they arent getting anymore money after we leave - at leadt it eould show some conviction and a clear plan.

At tge moment we have the worst of all negotiating positions because we cannot use our strengths, and are magnifying oir weaknesses.

Total effing balls-up.r

i don’t think we have any strengths in this case and I agree with you that the EU have a firm position. They don’t need nor want to do the UK any favours and don’t need to offer us anything.

Any concessions to the UK are off-set by sending a message to the rest of the Eurozone that exiting is a painful exercise. Timely given the rise of nationalist and far-right parties across Europe.

The history of post-war European politics is a story of economic and business collaboration between Germany and France that helps avoid war or conflict, alongside a bureaucratic expansionism that rightly or wrongly strengthened the powers of the European Commission and the European Parliament.

Britain is a bit of a bystander who only got involved to further our own cause and in the spirit of the memorable ‘Yes Prime Minister’ sketch to create division :greengrin

The negotiations seem to be a battle amongst the UK team between civil servants, who would be instinctively but cautiously ‘Remain’ and the ideologues within the Tory leavers. May has to offer enough to the Leavers otherwise she will risk losing a vote of confidence. The civil servants and the sensible Tories won’t let her go where the leavers want her to go.

At some point there will need to be either a general election or a leadership election. The Conservatives are historically great at straddling differences within the party but there is only so long May can straddle this fence. It’s a pity Corbyn isn’t grasping the nettle on this but he isn’t committed to the European Union.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

r

i don’t think we have any strengths in this case and I agree with you that the EU have a firm position. They don’t need nor want to do the UK any favours and don’t need to offer us anything.

Any concessions to the UK are off-set by sending a message to the rest of the Eurozone that exiting is a painful exercise. Timely given the rise of nationalist and far-right parties across Europe.

The history of post-war European politics is a story of economic and business collaboration between Germany and France that helps avoid war or conflict, alongside a bureaucratic expansionism that rightly or wrongly strengthened the powers of the European Commission and the European Parliament.

Britain is a bit of a bystander who only got involved to further our own cause and in the spirit of the memorable ‘Yes Prime Minister’ sketch to create division :greengrin

The negotiations seem to be a battle amongst the UK team between civil servants, who would be instinctively but cautiously ‘Remain’ and the ideologues within the Tory leavers. May has to offer enough to the Leavers otherwise she will risk losing a vote of confidence. The civil servants and the sensible Tories won’t let her go where the leavers want her to go.

At some point there will need to be either a general election or a leadership election. The Conservatives are historically great at straddling differences within the party but there is only so long May can straddle this fence. It’s a pity Corbyn isn’t grasping the nettle on this but he isn’t committed to the European Union.

Hard to disagree with that! Although i do think britain had some cards to play, they just werent played very well.

[Colr]

Hard to disagree with that! Although i do think britain had some cards to play, they just werent played very well.

The crappest Tory government in history kept in place by the second crappest Labour party.

[snooky]

The crappest Tory government in history kept in place by the second crappest Labour party.

Nutshell :agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The crappest Tory government in history kept in place by the second crappest Labour party.

Yeah, although dont say that to the momentum lot. They all seem to think corbyn is doing a brilliant job.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think both sides of the Tory divide are stalling, hoping that the EU will do their job for them.

Softheads - the UK negotiating position will be so derided in actual talks that we'll have to cave to avoid economic armageddon.
Hardheads - the UK negotiating position will be so derided in actual talks that we'll have to flounce off in the huff with no deal to save face.

It's the only plausible scenario I can come up with as to why they have allowed themselves to get to where they are.

Could go either way from here I think. :dunno:

[xyz23jc]

I see the Scottish Tories, have done the job for their London masters, and voted against the continuity bill at Holyrood.

Standing up for Scotland. 😃

"A
pragmatic, realistic plan which gives us the basis for the next round of negotiations......."

Cudnae mak it up!:confused::greengrin

[Colr]

Yeah, although dont say that to the momentum lot. They all seem to think corbyn is doing a brilliant job.

I like the idea of momentum. With the right leader they will sweep into power.

[Pete]

Yeah, although dont say that to the momentum lot. They all seem to think corbyn is doing a brilliant job.

Contrary to popular belief, we know that people have different opinions about this refreshing new version of Labour and we respect that.

Even if those opinions happen to be a load of pish ;-)

[JeMeSouviens]

Brilliantly concise dissection of May’s latest here:

https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/969568655007731712

Warning - hide sharp objects before starting.

[Glory Lurker]

Vacuous. If this was a cup tie, the EU would put their under-13s out.

[Hibbyradge]

Bad news: May confirms EU Digital Single Market exit, meaning the return of mobile roaming charges, etc.

Good news: Soon you won't be able to get any cheap flights to Europe anyway, so probably won't affect you.

[One Day Soon]

People go all snowflake like when the word quisling is used in regards to unionists however for that shower of ***** it's the only adequate word.

That's because its bat5hit to apply it in this context.

[One Day Soon]

Contrary to popular belief, we know that people have different opinions about this refreshing new version of Labour and we respect that.

Even if those opinions happen to be a load of pish ;-)


Perhaps the centrists should enter and make a refreshing new version of the SWP now that its members seem to have found a new home in New Old Labour. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland still plans to stay in European borderless Customs Union


https://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/scottish-government-gives-go-ahead-bridge-linking-northern-ireland-scotland-150679

[RyeSloan]

Scotland still plans to stay in European borderless Customs Union


https://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/scottish-government-gives-go-ahead-bridge-linking-northern-ireland-scotland-150679

A 23 mile bridge across the Irish Sea!

Never ever gonna happen. Excluding the fact that crossing such a structure in the frequent poor weather sounds like a rather scary prospect it makes little sense as it would make landfall in Scotland no where near any major road infrastructure or population centres.

Some quality reporting as well:

“The one major stumbling block in negotiations could be the large cost of such a project”

Well no **** Sherlock!

[marinello59]

Scotland still plans to stay in European borderless Customs Union


https://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/scottish-government-gives-go-ahead-bridge-linking-northern-ireland-scotland-150679

Maybe the Scottish Government could start by improving the transport infrastructure to our own Islands first.

[Colr]

They need May out pronto, couldn't fight her way out a wet paper bag and she's getting pummelled from all angles (apologies for the images that brings up).

I'd honestly prefer a hard Brexit government led by Farage and Rees Mogg that had the balls to negotiate hard with the EU.

The way t do that and solve a whole load of other problems would be to get Corbyn out pronto. Can’t see it happening, though.

[ronaldo7]

The words of the PM of Luxembourg, perfectly capturing Brexit.

"They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out, and want a load of opt-ins".

As the days pass, the Tories, both Scots, and English, have not got a clue.

[Moulin Yarns]

A 23 mile bridge across the Irish Sea!

Never ever gonna happen. Excluding the fact that crossing such a structure in the frequent poor weather sounds like a rather scary prospect it makes little sense as it would make landfall in Scotland no where near any major road infrastructure or population centres.

Some quality reporting as well:

“The one major stumbling block in negotiations could be the large cost of such a project”

Well no **** Sherlock!


Maybe the Scottish Government could start by improving the transport infrastructure to our own Islands first.

Obviously it all the SNP's idea, but not really, it has been investigated before with tunnels considered at the end of the 19th century


The construction of a bridge or a tunnel has often been discussed and a proposal was also contained in the 2015 DUP manifesto.

[JeMeSouviens]

Transition deal agreed. Which is good.

UK caves on Irish backstop, EU citizens' rights for new arrivals and fishing ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/18/uk-appears-to-abandon-bid-for-immediate-return-of-fisheries-control-after-brexit-michael-gove

Scottish Fishermens' Federation greeting about it already. Who'd have thought they'd get sold out, eh? :rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Transition deal agreed. Which is good.

UK caves on Irish backstop, EU citizens' rights for new arrivals and fishing ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/18/uk-appears-to-abandon-bid-for-immediate-return-of-fisheries-control-after-brexit-michael-gove

Scottish Fishermens' Federation greeting about it already. Who'd have thought they'd get sold out, eh? :rolleyes:

Yeah good news, although i have to admit that after the russian spat, im increasingly uneasy over brexit, and i wish someone would come out and scupper the whole thing

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah good news, although i have to admit that after the russian spat, im increasingly uneasy over brexit, and i wish someone would come out and scupper the whole thing

:agree:

[hibsbollah]

Transition deal agreed. Which is good.

UK caves on Irish backstop, EU citizens' rights for new arrivals and fishing ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/18/uk-appears-to-abandon-bid-for-immediate-return-of-fisheries-control-after-brexit-michael-gove

Scottish Fishermens' Federation greeting about it already. Who'd have thought they'd get sold out, eh? :rolleyes:

Im not really understanding why the SNP are so angry about the announcement today, since they (and all of us who voted Remain) were in effect always voting for a continuation of the CFP :dunno: It was a bridge that always needed crossing at some point. I suppose if the Tories now get a kicking in the Aberdeenshire constituencies as a result, it's a price worth paying.

The fishing industry lobby is just a massive pain in the jacksie. Stripped the sea almost to extinction through greed and then moaned about the implications of doing so.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Im not really understanding why the SNP are so angry about the announcement today, since they (and all of us who voted Remain) were in effect always voting for a continuation of the CFP :dunno: It was a bridge that always needed crossing at some point. I suppose if the Tories now get a kicking in the Aberdeenshire constituencies as a result, it's a price worth paying.

The fishing industry lobby is just a massive pain in the jacksie. Stripped the sea almost to extinction through greed and then moaned about the implications of doing so.

I dont know a lot about fishing, and i have to admit it is an industry that has often puzzled me too. As you say, they fished the stocks into oblivion, and as far as my lay eye can see, have needed strixt quotas (they seem to habe collevtively moaned about every single set of quotas imposed) to keep their industry alive and preserve stocks at all.

Im sure there is an alternative view, and id be interested to hear it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Im not really understanding why the SNP are so angry about the announcement today, since they (and all of us who voted Remain) were in effect always voting for a continuation of the CFP :dunno: It was a bridge that always needed crossing at some point. I suppose if the Tories now get a kicking in the Aberdeenshire constituencies as a result, it's a price worth paying.

The fishing industry lobby is just a massive pain in the jacksie. Stripped the sea almost to extinction through greed and then moaned about the implications of doing so.

I think the SNP's problem is the Tories lured away some of their NE voters on a false promise. So it's more of a "telt ye" thing than anything else.

[IGRIGI]

Can't wait to see Ruth "What's she like?!?!" Davidson try to charm her way out of this one.

[RyeSloan]

I think the SNP's problem is the Tories lured away some of their NE voters on a false promise. So it's more of a "telt ye" thing than anything else.

The SNP position is its usual oxymoron over the EU...greetin’ about not getting powers it explicitly states wants to remain with the EU.

As for the fishermen...well it’s pretty clear they are unhappy with the transition period proposals but If, as seems likely, at the end of the period full powers are returned to the UK on fishing then I can’t really see there issue. It’s called a transition period for a reason!

[JeMeSouviens]

The SNP position is its usual oxymoron over the EU...greetin’ about not getting powers it explicitly states wants to remain with the EU.

As for the fishermen...well it’s pretty clear they are unhappy with the transition period proposals but If, as seems likely, at the end of the period full powers are returned to the UK on fishing then I can’t really see there issue. It’s called a transition period for a reason!

That's a slightly tangential point here, ie. it's more of a general background greet than the specific greet du jour hibsbollah was asking about.

As per others above, I know next to f all about the fishing industry but, from their point of view, they would have considerably more political leverage over Holyrood than Westminster (where it's now clear they have absolutely zilchio). Westminster may have full control after 2020, but who would bet against them using that control to bargain away access rights to fishing grounds for whatever they perceive as more beneficial to their heartland.

[RyeSloan]

That's a slightly tangential point here, ie. it's more of a general background greet than the specific greet du jour hibsbollah was asking about.

As per others above, I know next to f all about the fishing industry but, from their point of view, they would have considerably more political leverage over Holyrood than Westminster (where it's now clear they have absolutely zilchio). Westminster may have full control after 2020, but who would bet against them using that control to bargain away access rights to fishing grounds for whatever they perceive as more beneficial to their heartland.

From what I can see the financial impact of fishing on the UK economy is absolutely tiny. 0.044% of GDP. With about 14,000 people employed directly and similar in processing.

So in bare economic terms it’s really not worth too much bother. Clearly however it supports specific communities and ‘ways of life’ that are of importance from a historic perspective, and they are a pretty vocal tiny minority so I’m sure it will continue to get coverage.

[Moulin Yarns]

The SNP position is its usual oxymoron over the EU...greetin’ about not getting powers it explicitly states wants to remain with the EU.

As for the fishermen...well it’s pretty clear they are unhappy with the transition period proposals but If, as seems likely, at the end of the period full powers are returned to the UK on fishing then I can’t really see there issue. It’s called a transition period for a reason!

And then there's the future to look forward to....

https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/cfp/international/agreements_en

[JeMeSouviens]

From what I can see the financial impact of fishing on the UK economy is absolutely tiny. 0.044% of GDP. With about 14,000 people employed directly and similar in processing.

So in bare economic terms it’s really not worth too much bother. Clearly however it supports specific communities and ‘ways of life’ that are of importance from a historic perspective, and they are a pretty vocal tiny minority so I’m sure it will continue to get coverage.

Agreed. But the Brexiteers made a big deal out of talking up fishing. They can hardly complain if others make a big deal that they aren't walking the walk and their natural order is to sell the fishermen out again.

[RyeSloan]

Agreed. But the Brexiteers made a big deal out of talking up fishing. They can hardly complain if others make a big deal that they aren't walking the walk and their natural order is to sell the fishermen out again.

Nobody has sold anybody out yet though have they?

What I have read is that during the transition phase the EU quota’s etc will still largely apply to give all interested parties time to adjust and plan for when they don’t.

OK so some fishermen seemed to think they would somehow be exempt from that process but I’ve seen nothing to suggest that post transition that fishing won’t be fully a UK matter in UK waters.

In other words much ado about nothing from my (albeit limited) perspective.

[ronaldo7]

Im not really understanding why the SNP are so angry about the announcement today, since they (and all of us who voted Remain) were in effect always voting for a continuation of the CFP :dunno: It was a bridge that always needed crossing at some point. I suppose if the Tories now get a kicking in the Aberdeenshire constituencies as a result, it's a price worth paying.

The fishing industry lobby is just a massive pain in the jacksie. Stripped the sea almost to extinction through greed and then moaned about the implications of doing so.

This is an extract from "Scotland's place in Europe", and it details that we wouldn't be in the CFP. It may have been lost in the brexit fog of the last year or so.

127. Fisheries and agriculture - EFTA EEA countries are not within the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) or the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and most agricultural and fish products traded from EFTA EEA countries to the EU are subject to tariffs. Our proposal would, therefore, give Scotland greater opportunity to develop and administer Scottish specific agricultural and fisheries policies. We set out in Chapter Four our expectation that responsibility for these policies will remain fully devolved to Scotland following the UK's exit from the EU, providing the Scottish Government with much more direct policy-making tools to ensure outcomes appropriate to our needs in these two critical sectors. In particular, we are clear that under this option we would not remain within the Common Fisheries Policy. However, one of the challenges of this differentiated option is the potential application of tariffs to agricultural and fisheries products; and to mitigate this, in the first instance, we would press the UK Government to negotiate for tariff-free access to the European Single Market for those products.

[xyz23jc]

This is an extract from "Scotland's place in Europe", and it details that we wouldn't be in the CFP. It may have been lost in the brexit fog of the last year or so.

127. Fisheries and agriculture - EFTA EEA countries are not within the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) or the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and most agricultural and fish products traded from EFTA EEA countries to the EU are subject to tariffs. Our proposal would, therefore, give Scotland greater opportunity to develop and administer Scottish specific agricultural and fisheries policies. We set out in Chapter Four our expectation that responsibility for these policies will remain fully devolved to Scotland following the UK's exit from the EU, providing the Scottish Government with much more direct policy-making tools to ensure outcomes appropriate to our needs in these two critical sectors. In particular, we are clear that under this option we would not remain within the Common Fisheries Policy. However, one of the challenges of this differentiated option is the potential application of tariffs to agricultural and fisheries products; and to mitigate this, in the first instance, we would press the UK Government to negotiate for tariff-free access to the European Single Market for those products.

This'll be part o' thi 'Bonanza of Powers' 'promised' by Fluffy and the 13 earbenders then, eh? Where's that JC JPG? Better together Ya c****! :greengrin

[Mr Grieves]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43484031

Cringe

[Mr Grieves]

So that's the continuity bills passed overwhelmingly in both the Scottish and Welsh parliaments, can you guess which party voted against?

Could be interesting to see where this goes. Will the UK government challenge this and what are the ramifications for devolution?