Brexit - what will happen next

[ronaldo7]

Does anyone have the figures of what ruk sells into, Scotland, and why we'd want to stop buying from ruk, after Indy?

These are figures from 2013.

The Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.

I'm sure there are more up to date figures, but I wonder why people from the rUK wouldn't want to sell their products to ,Scotland, after Indy, after all, they sell more to us than we sell to them.

[ronaldo7]

Treeza's deal will cost us plenty according to the new figures produced by the SG.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/publication/2018/11/scotlands-place-europe-assessment-uk-governments-proposed-future-relationship-eu/documents/00543356-pdf/00543356-pdf/govscot%3Adocument


No children were harmed, or conceived during the making of this document.

[HibbyDave]

European courts of justice are hearing a case to decide if article50 can be repealed by the uk without consent of the other member states.
Decision expected soon. This would give UK MP’s another option in the big vote on December 11.

[ronaldo7]

Strong and Stable she said, and yet the Tories can't even make space for the National journalists. It seems only those and such as those are invited.


https://t.co/SckZCv6Lte

[Bristolhibby]

i take very little notice of the snp and have no idea what they're latest gimmick is. What is their latest or most recent one?

Fully informed of all potential solutions then?

J

[Hibernia&Alba]

If it's boiling down to a straight choice of whether or not Scotland stands with our closest neighbours who're part of the same island group - England, Wales and Northern Ireland or separates off in a different direction altogether with Germany and France then I'll very happily stick with my fellow islanders. Doesn't make me or others like me any less Scottish just because we believe that partnership with our nearest neighbours is the correct action.

My point was about the impact of EU withdrawal on the UK, not about Scottish independence. :confused:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But it isn't only about 'weight and gravitas'; it's about mutual cooperation and mutual benefits. Outside the EU the UK will find itself out of the sphere of influence in many respects. We are no longer a world superpower; the EU was our vehicle to stay in the loop. In the EU we ARE one of the big boys; outside of it we are alone. Diplomacy on the big issues will involve the USA, the EU, Russia and China. When you talk of 'domination', perhaps the Tory right wing will now push forward in making us the 51st American state, as they have always preferred, so that we can keep a seat at the table with the big boys.

While i largely agree with your point, i think you hugely oberstate the role of the eu in foreign affairs. It is a well known trope in international relations that the eu is an economic giant but a political pygmy. NATO remains the ultimate global power, especially in europe.

[Hibernia&Alba]

While i largely agree with your point, i think you hugely oberstate the role of the eu in foreign affairs. It is a well known trope in international relations that the eu is an economic giant but a political pygmy. NATO remains the ultimate global power, especially in europe.

But NATO is a military alliance. In terms of international diplomacy, the EU is the power block through which the UK is heard, in conjunction with the permanent seat on the UN security council. Outside the EU we will find ourselves on the margins, along with other mid-sized countries.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Does anyone have the figures of what ruk sells into, Scotland, and why we'd want to stop buying from ruk, after Indy?

These are figures from 2013.

The Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.

I'm sure there are more up to date figures, but I wonder why people from the rUK wouldn't want to sell their products to ,Scotland, after Indy, after all, they sell more to us than we sell to them.

Is that not exactly the same childish use of stats that leavers made about the EU?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But NATO is a military alliance. In terms of international diplomacy, the EU is the power block through which the UK is heard, in conjunction with the permanent seat on the UN security council. Outside the EU we will find ourselves on the margins, along with other mid-sized countries.

To an extent, but only in quite limited circumstances. It doesnt take into account that the EU has a very limited foreign policy and capability, and also that individual countries and the EU will continue to work with the uk, and vice versa.

The UK still has more clout at the un than the eu (for what it is worth), and is still rhe closest ally of the US, not to mention the rest of the English speaking world.

And you cant dismiss nato because they are a military alliance, diplomacy not backed by economic and or military power is fairly worthless.

Anyway it is a moot point, and there is no right answer, its a matter of opinion.

[Hibernia&Alba]

To an extent, but only in quite limited circumstances. It doesnt take into account that the EU has a very limited foreign policy and capability, and also that individual countries and the EU will continue to work with the uk, and vice versa.

The UK still has more clout at the un than the eu (for what it is worth), and is still rhe closest ally of the US, not to mention the rest of the English speaking world.

And you cant dismiss nato because they are a military alliance, diplomacy not backed by economic and or military power is fairly worthless.

Anyway it is a moot point, and there is no right answer, its a matter of opinion.

We will find ourselves in the same position as Canada, Australia and New Zealand: wealthy advanced nations nobody pays any attention to. The Commonwealth has no international clout at all. The UK is no longer a superpower in its own right, despite the wishful thinking of the right wing of the Tory Party. We are going to learn our true place in the world is a mid-ranking power of little relevance, which will come as a shock to many.

[CropleyWasGod]

We will find ourselves in the same position as Canada, Australia and New Zealand: wealthy advanced nations nobody pays any attention to. The Commonwealth has no international clout at all. The UK is no longer a superpower in its own right, despite the wishful thinking of the right wing of the Tory Party. We are going to learn our true place in the world is a mid-ranking power of little relevance, which will come as a shock to many.

Playing Devil's Advocate, would the ANZAC situation not be a blessed relief? Get rid of Trident and just get on with being.

Personally, I'm not interested in how the rest of the world sees the UK politically.

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We will find ourselves in the same position as Canada, Australia and New Zealand: wealthy advanced nations nobody pays any attention to. The Commonwealth has no international clout at all. The UK is no longer a superpower in its own right, despite the wishful thinking of the right wing of the Tory Party. We are going to learn our true place in the world is a mid-ranking power of little relevance, which will come as a shock to many.

I think you are wrong. The uk is a second tier global power, one of the few countries with power projection capabilities, a close ally of the biggest superpower, a close ally of europes other major global player france, and a global giant in the world of international finance, espionage and intelligence, a leading contributor to nato, one of only five nations to have a permanent seat on the security council, and one of a small number to have nuclear arms. Added to our place as a top ten global economy, and significant levels of soft power, it is a powerful combination.

These things are true indepdently of our EU membership.

Of course influence in the eu will diminish, but it is not the EU that those countries bordering russia are looking to for security, particularly as russia has Germany dangling on the end of one, soon to be two, gas pipelines.

[Saturday Boy]

Playing Devil's Advocate, would the ANZAC situation not be a blessed relief? Get rid of Trident and just get on with being.

Personally, I'm not interested in how the rest of the world sees the UK politically.

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Torry government getting rid of trident?

There’s optimism and then there’s optimism 😄

[Hibernia&Alba]

Playing Devil's Advocate, would the ANZAC situation not be a blessed relief? Get rid of Trident and just get on with being.

Personally, I'm not interested in how the rest of the world sees the UK politically.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I actually think that's a fair point, CWG. We will need to embrace the reality, as it will be the only the game in town. We will be Norway but with more people; and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as Norway is always measured as a very happy society. Like them, we will also be at the geographical, political and economic margins of Europe. It may come as a shock to many, however: this is the end of centuries of Britain being of global significance. We no longer have an empire; we no longer have the biggest navy in the world; we are no longer worthy of our place at the top table; something which will only become more evident outsider the EU as China and India grow. The EU was our vehicle of maintaining global relevance - that was a big reason for entering the EEC. We in the UK will need to re-adjust, accepting that we will be diplomatically more marginal and economically poorer.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think you are wrong. The uk is a second tier global power, one of the few countries with power projection capabilities, a close ally of the biggest superpower, a close ally of europes other major global player france, and a global giant in the world of international finance, espionage and intelligence, a leading contributor to nato, one of only five nations to have a permanent seat on the security council, and one of a small number to have nuclear arms. Added to our place as a top ten global economy, and significant levels of soft power, it is a powerful combination.

These things are true indepdently of our EU membership.

Of course influence in the eu will diminish, but it is not the EU that those countries bordering russia are looking to for security, particularly as russia has Germany dangling on the end of one, soon to be two, gas pipelines.

The big decisions will be taken in Washington, Brussels, Beijing and Moscow. London/Edinburgh will find themselves very marginal. Our method of being heard internationally was in conjunction with Berlin, Paris, Rome etc.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The big decisions will be taken in Washington, Brussels, Beijing and Moscow. London/Edinburgh will find themselves very marginal. Our method of being heard internationally was in conjunction with Berlin, Paris, Rome etc.

Washington, Beijing, moscow, absolutely. Brussels is nowhere near that level in international affairs (actually not true, as nato is of course hqd there, but in terms of the eu, it barely features as a global player)

Germany are voluntary absent due to their horrendous history, italy are significant, as are France. The uk will remain in that second tier of nations - not a superpower, you are absolutely right, but there with france, Canada, turkey, Japan etc as tier 2 nations.

And as nato continues to deliver europes security needs, the uk will remain very central to that for the forseeable future.

The uk has lost its plave at the top table since ww2, i agree. But the EU has never had a place at the top table. The two things are not that strongly linked.

And the uk will continue to work bilterally with european countries and of course with the usa. I literally cant think of a single major foreign policy issue that happened through the EU.

And you continue to ignore nato, the single biggest and most powerful player in international affairs.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Washington, Beijing, moscow, absolutely. Brussels is nowhere near that level in international affairs (actually not true, as nato is of course hqd there, but in terms of the eu, it barely features as a global player)

Germany are voluntary absent due to their horrendous history, italy are significant, as are France. The uk will remain in that second tier of nations - not a superpower, you are absolutely right, but there with france, Canada, turkey, Japan etc as tier 2 nations.

And as nato continues to deliver europes security needs, the uk will remain very central to that for the forseeable future.

The uk has lost its plave at the top table since ww2, i agree. But the EU has never had a place at the top table. The two things are not that strongly linked.

And the uk will continue to work bilterally with european countries and of course with the usa. I literally cant think of a single major foreign policy issue that happened through the EU.

There I disagree strongly. The EU is now 28 countries of 400 million people - more than the USA and Russia. The EU economy is enormous - a single market and customs union of 400 million - and it contains many of the 'old world' global powers -UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal. We in the UK are about lose our voice and voting power as one of the strongest nations in a hugely influential block. I think CWG makes a valid point that we may at last come to terms with our true status in the world, which could be what we need in the long run. However, the price of being another Canada and Australia is our marginalisation in the big decisions, and I think everyone can agree that the economic hit isn't good for anyone.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There I disagree strongly. The EU is now 28 countries of 400 million people - more than the USA and Russia. The EU economy is enormous - a single market and customs union of 400 million - and it contains many of the 'old world' global powers -UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal. We in the UK are about lose our voice and voting power as one of the strongest nations in a hugely influential block. I think CWG makes a valid point that we may at last come to terms with our true status in the world, which could be what we need in the long run. However, the price of being another Canada and Australia is our marginalisation in the big decisions, and I think everyone can agree that the economic hit isn't good for anyone.

Fair enough, good discussion 👍

[ronaldo7]

Is that not exactly the same childish use of stats that leavers made about the EU?

I got that direct quote from the state broadcaster, so on this occasion you may be correct.

Still waiting on someone telling me why we'd stop buying and selling from ruk when we're Indy, and vice versa.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I got that direct quote from the state broadcaster, so on this occasion you may be correct.

Still waiting on someone telling me why we'd stop buying and selling from ruk when we're Indy, and vice versa.

We wouldn't, in tye same way that we wont stop buying and selling to / from the EU.

But there wouldn't be 'frictionless trade' to borrow a phrase, and goods would become more expensive / less competitive, and many companies may review their supply chains and hq locations.

You cant have it both ways. If leaving the EU single market is a bad thing (i think we would both agree it is) then leaving the UK single market will also be a bad thing.

Thats not to say it isnt worth doing - people can and do believe in independence for many reasons, and many will believe short term pain is worth it for long term gain, just as many leavers believe. But nobody can, or should honestly say that leaving the UK will be painless or simple, because it wouldn't be. Just like leaving the EU isnt / wont be.

[Bristolhibby]

Washington, Beijing, moscow, absolutely. Brussels is nowhere near that level in international affairs (actually not true, as nato is of course hqd there, but in terms of the eu, it barely features as a global player)

Germany are voluntary absent due to their horrendous history, italy are significant, as are France. The uk will remain in that second tier of nations - not a superpower, you are absolutely right, but there with france, Canada, turkey, Japan etc as tier 2 nations.

And as nato continues to deliver europes security needs, the uk will remain very central to that for the forseeable future.

The uk has lost its plave at the top table since ww2, i agree. But the EU has never had a place at the top table. The two things are not that strongly linked.

And the uk will continue to work bilterally with european countries and of course with the usa. I literally cant think of a single major foreign policy issue that happened through the EU.

And you continue to ignore nato, the single biggest and most powerful player in international affairs.

Lybia. The Americans were very much in the back seat of that particular Middle Eastern disaster.

J

[Bristolhibby]

We wouldn't, in tye same way that we wont stop buying and selling to / from the EU.

But there wouldn't be 'frictionless trade' to borrow a phrase, and goods would become more expensive / less competitive, and many companies may review their supply chains and hq locations.

You cant have it both ways. If leaving the EU single market is a bad thing (i think we would both agree it is) then leaving the UK single market will also be a bad thing.

Thats not to say it isnt worth doing - people can and do believe in independence for many reasons, and many will believe short term pain is worth it for long term gain, just as many leavers believe. But nobody can, or should honestly say that leaving the UK will be painless or simple, because it wouldn't be. Just like leaving the EU isnt / wont be.

What about leaving the U.K. single market and rejoining / never leaving (as we go Independent in the transition phase) the EU single market?

J

[Tornadoes70]

There I disagree strongly. The EU is now 28 countries of 400 million people - more than the USA and Russia. The EU economy is enormous - a single market and customs union of 400 million - and it contains many of the 'old world' global powers -UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal. We in the UK are about lose our voice and voting power as one of the strongest nations in a hugely influential block. I think CWG makes a valid point that we may at last come to terms with our true status in the world, which could be what we need in the long run. However, the price of being another Canada and Australia is our marginalisation in the big decisions, and I think everyone can agree that the economic hit isn't good for anyone.

This is exactly what you and the snp are all about. Becoming just another little country being ruled by the big boys within the EU. Give up on Trident, our armed forces and every part of sovereignty among virtually every other aspect of vital governance. Independence? I would deem it to be asking to be cuckolded in the political sense.

I also would add that you and some other snp followers are sinisterly using the tories as a metaphor against other groups of voters and/or folks within the UK, at least it certainly appears that way.

I pray the snp cuckolds never get their way.

[danhibees1875]

"the SNP cuckolds" - I hope that catches on. :greengrin

Did you make that up yourself?

Has it not already been shown how small countries do have their voices heard within the EU?

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is exactly what you and the snp are all about. Becoming just another little country being ruled by the big boys within the EU. Give up on Trident, our armed forces and every part of sovereignty among virtually every other aspect of vital governance. Independence? I would deem it to be asking to be cuckolded in the political sense.

I also would add that you and some other snp followers are sinisterly using the tories as a metaphor against other groups of voters and/or folks within the UK, at least it certainly appears that way.

I pray the snp cuckolds never get their way.

It's a good rant. Just one wee problem with it: I've never voted SNP in my life and voted against independence in the referendum. Where does that leave your theory?

It may have slipped your notice, but we are discussing the UK leaving the EU, not the SNP. For my part, I haven't mentioned independence.

[PeeJay]

What about leaving the U.K. single market and rejoining / never leaving (as we go Independent in the transition phase) the EU single market?

J

If Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU (at some time in the future as it certainly will not be straight away!) all trade deals with "RuK" will then be negotiated by the EU NOT by Scotland ...

[Callum_62]

This is exactly what you and the snp are all about. Becoming just another little country being ruled by the big boys within the EU. Give up on Trident, our armed forces and every part of sovereignty among virtually every other aspect of vital governance. Independence? I would deem it to be asking to be cuckolded in the political sense.

I also would add that you and some other snp followers are sinisterly using the tories as a metaphor against other groups of voters and/or folks within the UK, at least it certainly appears that way.

I pray the snp cuckolds never get their way.

How do you know this?

you have repeated countless times that you have no interest in the SNP

Pretty opinionated about them for someone who has no interest

Im curious why you are so attached to Trident?


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[Hibernia&Alba]

How do you know this?

you have repeated countless times that you have no interest in the SNP

Pretty opinionated about them for someone who has no interest

Im curious why you are so attached to Trident?


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I don't think he's even reading the posts he's replying to. We are discussing the impact of Brexit on the UK as a whole, yet he keeps talking about the SNP.

[Bristolhibby]

If Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU (at some time in the future as it certainly will not be straight away!) all trade deals with "RuK" will then be negotiated by the EU NOT by Scotland ...

Sounds good to me. Just hope England (and it is England leading the way, we all can see that) doesn’t jump off a cliff this March. I’d also be looking for an Ireland / Northern Ireland type relationship that would be possible.

Whatever solution works there will work in Indy Scotland / Rump border.

J

[McSwanky]

Independence for England! It's the only way! :greengrin

[Curried]

Independence for England! It's the only way! :greengrin


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpK5zwUVIAAzAWS.jpg:large

[Fife-Hibee]

May has rolled her banking friends out for the great big rescue.

Where have we seen this before?

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46377309

Pretty grim stuff.

[stoneyburn hibs]

May has rolled her banking friends out for the great big rescue.

Where have we seen this before?

Exactly, let's get the sensationalist headlines into the media. The BoE completely toeing the party line.

[Fife-Hibee]

Did May just say this deal would be great for Scottish exports? Deary me.

[ronaldo7]

We wouldn't, in tye same way that we wont stop buying and selling to / from the EU.

But there wouldn't be 'frictionless trade' to borrow a phrase, and goods would become more expensive / less competitive, and many companies may review their supply chains and hq locations.

You cant have it both ways. If leaving the EU single market is a bad thing (i think we would both agree it is) then leaving the UK single market will also be a bad thing.

Thats not to say it isnt worth doing - people can and do believe in independence for many reasons, and many will believe short term pain is worth it for long term gain, just as many leavers believe. But nobody can, or should honestly say that leaving the UK will be painless or simple, because it wouldn't be. Just like leaving the EU isnt / wont be.

The "UK internal market", is a post 2014 manufactured fabrication for the UKGOV to hide behind. You only have to look at the costs of joining the "National grid", in different parts of the UK to see that.

As for your last para, I won't say Indy is going to be painless, but worth it in the end.

It's coming, it's only a matter of time. :wink: :saltireflag

[Fife-Hibee]

Bank: UK economy may shrink by 8% if no-deal

Couldn't agree more. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The "UK internal market", is a post 2014 manufactured fabrication for the UKGOV to hide behind. You only have to look at the costs of joining the "National grid", in different parts of the UK to see that.

As for your last para, I won't say Indy is going to be painless, but worth it in the end.

It's coming, it's only a matter of time. :wink: :saltireflag

Well im sure all of the financial companies based in edinburgh but with 90% of their customers in england would disagree with you, but im sure you know better.

>inserts childish one-liner and lots of emjois to really hammer home point<

[Moulin Yarns]

I see Theresa May didn't follow convention by having the local mp or msp at todays visit to the leather factory. You know, the one that already exports to 60 countries worldwide without having to wait for Brexit.

[Hibernia&Alba]

At least we seem to be finally having an honest debate about the economic impact of Brexit, even if it's far too late. The Bank of England says May's deal would shrink the economy by just under 4% over fifteen years; no deal Brexit would shrink the economy by just under 10% over the same period.

There is no Brexit scenario the Bank can forsee in which the economy will improve for a couple of decades. The poorer you are, the bigger the hit you will take.

Magic.

[RyeSloan]

At least we seem to be finally having an honest debate about the economic impact of Brexit, even if it's far too late. The Bank of England says May's deal would shrink the economy by just under 4% over fifteen years; no deal Brexit would shrink the economy by just under 10% over the same period.

There is no Brexit scenario the Bank can forsee in which the economy will improve for a couple of decades. The poorer you are, the bigger the hit you will take.

Magic.

The bank has made no such forecast as they are at pains to stress these are assumptions and scenarios. [emoji12]

[Hibernia&Alba]

The bank has made no such forecast as they are at pains to stress these are assumptions and scenarios. [emoji12]

They are also at pains to stress that they cannot find any 'assumption or scenario' in which Brexit will be beneficial to the UK economy. :wink:

[RyeSloan]

They are also at pains to stress that they cannot find any 'assumption or scenario' in which Brexit will be beneficial to the UK economy. :wink:

Did they not ask Rees Mogg? [emoji23]

[Hibernia&Alba]

Did they not ask Rees Mogg? [emoji23]


Yes, the hereditary multi-millionaire with a safe parliamentary seat for as long as he wants it, will shed a tear for us all.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

At least we seem to be finally having an honest debate about the economic impact of Brexit, even if it's far too late. The Bank of England says May's deal would shrink the economy by just under 4% over fifteen years; no deal Brexit would shrink the economy by just under 10% over the same period.

There is no Brexit scenario the Bank can forsee in which the economy will improve for a couple of decades. The poorer you are, the bigger the hit you will take.

Magic.

Youre right, and it is a little disappointing. However, i do wonder if it is too late...?

I think no deal and no brexit remain possibilities at the moment. Or maybe that is wishful thinking...

[Hibrandenburg]

Youre right, and it is a little disappointing. However, i do wonder if it is too late...?

I think no deal and no brexit remain possibilities at the moment. Or maybe that is wishful thinking...

The day after the referendum I said Brexit won't actually happen. I still feel the same.

[ronaldo7]

Well im sure all of the financial companies based in edinburgh but with 90% of their customers in england would disagree with you, but im sure you know better.

>inserts childish one-liner and lots of emjois to really hammer home point<

Reaches for project fear emoji, but it's been used that much it's disappeared.

[Slavers]

The day after the referendum I said Brexit won't actually happen. I still feel the same.

Sadly you I think you are correct. The Brexit vote went against a very dark force that will never ever give up its power.

Just look at all the other nations who have previously voted to leave all of them have been made to go back and vote again until they vote to stay.

Quite amazing how the corporate media, central bankers and politicians have attacked the vote and tried to turn it around since the result was known.

Dark days ahead the next 25 years will see the luciferian death cult start another major war most likely with either Russia or China. Once those powers are destroyed and the Europeans have been wiped out again, the technology that will be in place means then the one world government will be completed. Democracy will become a relic from a very distant time in history.

[ronaldo7]

I see Theresa May didn't follow convention by having the local mp or msp at todays visit to the leather factory. You know, the one that already exports to 60 countries worldwide without having to wait for Brexit.

Mundell sent the message to the wrong MP. An hour before they arrived, Mhairi black got the message that they were arriving in her constituency, it's a pity the leather factory was in another constituency in renfrewshire.

They've not got a clue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sadly you I think you are correct. The Brexit vote went against a very dark force that will never ever give up its power.

Just look at all the other nations who have previously voted to leave all of them have been made to go back and vote again until they vote to stay.

Quite amazing how the corporate media, central bankers and politicians have attacked the vote and tried to turn it around since the result was known.

Dark days ahead the next 25 years will see the luciferian death cult start another major war most likely with either Russia or China. Once those powers are destroyed and the Europeans have been wiped out again, the technology that will be in place means then the one world government will be completed. Democracy will become a relic from a very distant time in history.
Whit?

https://media.giphy.com/media/hGwvzBNwXDwlO/giphy.gif

[Callum_62]

Sadly you I think you are correct. The Brexit vote went against a very dark force that will never ever give up its power.

Just look at all the other nations who have previously voted to leave all of them have been made to go back and vote again until they vote to stay.


What other nations?



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[Callum_62]

Reaches for project fear emoji, but it's been used that much it's disappeared.

By the current governments own assessment we will all be poorer

Although at pains not to say we are worse off economically under all scenarios compared to now thats what there own analysis showed, and almost all experts agree with this

If this indeed comes to fruition and folk start losing there jobs etc - i wonder if the group of brexiteers will admit they were wrong....or just blame the Scottish Government....


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[G B Young]

May has rolled her banking friends out for the great big rescue.

Where have we seen this before?

The Bank of England's forecast was in response to a request for a Brexit impact assessment by the Treasury Select Committee, which comprises a cross-party group of 11 MPs, only four of whom are Conservative. Not sure how that equates to May 'rolling out' her banking friends.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Bank of England's forecast was in response to a request for a Brexit impact assessment by the Treasury Select Committee, which comprises a cross-party group of 11 MPs, only four of whom are Conservative. Not sure how that equates to May 'rolling out' her banking friends.And, if those are her friends,......... [emoji849]

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[ronaldo7]

The Bank of England's forecast was in response to a request for a Brexit impact assessment by the Treasury Select Committee, which comprises a cross-party group of 11 MPs, only four of whom are Conservative. Not sure how that equates to May 'rolling out' her banking friends.

I don't think it's a secret that Theresa and friends, have a timeline over the next few weeks. Who's turn it is, to come out in favour of her deal. CBI, check. Day visit to Scotland, check. Day visit to, Wales, and NI, check. Bankers, check.

The list is endless, the trouble is, most people can see through it.

[heretoday]

Everything's going to be fine. Relax, folks.

[ronaldo7]

By the current governments own assessment we will all be poorer

Although at pains not to say we are worse off economically under all scenarios compared to now thats what there own analysis showed, and almost all experts agree with this

If this indeed comes to fruition and folk start losing there jobs etc - i wonder if the group of brexiteers will admit they were wrong....or just blame the Scottish Government....


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They're blaming the SG already and have been for a while. Firstly we were all bad boys because we wanted the single market and customs union, and we wouldn't "row in behind Theresa".

They're now saying we want a no deal. (Mundell)

They're making it up as they go along. Just not very well.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I don't think it's a secret that Theresa and friends, have a timeline over the next few weeks. Who's turn it is, to come out in favour of her deal. CBI, check. Day visit to Scotland, check. Day visit to, Wales, and NI, check. Bankers, check.

The list is endless, the trouble is, most people can see through it.

It's desperate. The Daily Mail led with the great news that key Brexiter Andrea Leadsom is going to support May's deal as if that was some sort of major victory. The fact that those, even in her cabinet, aren't 100% behind the deal tells you it has no chance. No amount of visits and repeating sound bites ad nauseum is going to change the outcome for May.

[Bristolhibby]

Also, why when they talk about Scotland, they trot out the Fishermen and Farmers? As if they contribute to 100% of the Scottish economy.

Incidentally does anyone know what the Farming and Fishing Industries contribute by way of the Scottish GDP as a percentage?

I’d wager there are many more industries that contribute much more who will have to take a haircut due to this Brexit nonsense.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

The Bank of England's forecast was in response to a request for a Brexit impact assessment by the Treasury Select Committee, which comprises a cross-party group of 11 MPs, only four of whom are Conservative. Not sure how that equates to May 'rolling out' her banking friends.

1 "independent", 5 Labour MPs (2-3 soft Conservatives).

[Fife-Hibee]

It's desperate. The Daily Mail led with the great news that key Brexiter Andrea Leadsom is going to support May's deal as if that was some sort of major victory. The fact that those, even in her cabinet, aren't 100% behind the deal tells you it has no chance. No amount of visits and repeating sound bites ad nauseum is going to change the outcome for May.

The BBC was also pushing the line that this was a "huge boost" for Theresa May's deal.

The Daily Mail also suggested that May said she was going to block EU fleets from entering Scots waters. (Without actually putting it in quotes)
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/tmcfp-768x546.jpg

When in reality, she won't be "blocking" anything. The only thing that would prevent EU fleets from entering those waters is the outcome of no-deal brexit. Which would be utterly disastrous for the fishing industry. Considering our largest export market for fish is the EU.

The Daily Mail is an absolute joke. But auld bumbling fools still continue to buy it, because they don't know what an internet connection is. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Also, why when they talk about Scotland, they trot out the Fishermen and Farmers? As if they contribute to 100% of the Scottish economy.

Incidentally does anyone know what the Farming and Fishing Industries contribute by way of the Scottish GDP as a percentage?

I’d wager there are many more industries that contribute much more who will have to take a haircut due to this Brexit nonsense.

J

There was an article I read in a Sunday Newspaper that said the fishing industry accounts for a whopping 0.1% GDP and employs around 0.12% of the workforce. If only real businesses had the same voice in this debacle.

[G B Young]

1 "independent", 5 Labour MPs (2-3 soft Conservatives).

You forgot about the SNP's Stewart Hosie.

Basically a relatively balanced composition reflecting the make-up of the Commons.

[G B Young]

The BBC was also pushing the line that this was a "huge boost" for Theresa May's deal.

The Daily Mail also suggested that May said she was going to block EU fleets from entering Scots waters. (Without actually putting it in quotes)


When in reality, she won't be "blocking" anything. The only thing that would prevent EU fleets from entering those waters is the outcome of no-deal brexit. Which would be utterly disastrous for the fishing industry. Considering our largest export market for fish is the EU.

The Daily Mail is an absolute joke. But auld bumbling fools still continue to buy it, because they don't know what an internet connection is. :rolleyes:

Damn those pesky auld folk. What could they possibly have to offer society? Imagine not having an internet connection! They truly must be worthless.

[Fife-Hibee]

A CNN report than you would never see from the BBC:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaT0Bc23-ic&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3p6P4YUepp6N7wo7dS6SeR_JZUKvpA49FI-zLlEXYf0N2ZuddzApXvGuQ

[Moulin Yarns]

Sadly you I think you are correct. The Brexit vote went against a very dark force that will never ever give up its power.

Just look at all the other nations who have previously voted to leave all of them have been made to go back and vote again until they vote to stay.

Quite amazing how the corporate media, central bankers and politicians have attacked the vote and tried to turn it around since the result was known.

Dark days ahead the next 25 years will see the luciferian death cult start another major war most likely with either Russia or China. Once those powers are destroyed and the Europeans have been wiped out again, the technology that will be in place means then the one world government will be completed. Democracy will become a relic from a very distant time in history.

OK, let's look at ALL the other nations that have 'voted' to leave, shall we?

Algeria? Not even part of Europe, but ceased being a member of the Common Market in 1962 when it gained Independence from France. NO VOTE.

Greenland? As part of Denmark it joined in 1973. After gaining Home Rule 53% voted to leave in 1982.

And the biggy Saint Barthélemy???? Where? It's in the Caribbean, was a dependency of Guadeloupe!! OK, Guadeloupe is a French Overseas Territory, so is a member of the EU, but mighty Saint Barthélemy seceded in 2007 following a referendum.

I think you might have noticed the flaw in your argument, None held further referendums and have left. If you know differently feel free to correct me. :wink:

[G B Young]

I don't think it's a secret that Theresa and friends, have a timeline over the next few weeks. Who's turn it is, to come out in favour of her deal. CBI, check. Day visit to Scotland, check. Day visit to, Wales, and NI, check. Bankers, check.

The list is endless, the trouble is, most people can see through it.

See through what? A packed fortnight of activity targeted at mustering support for the deal she believes is the right one? Sounds like a pretty transparent strategy that any politician in a similar position would adopt. Tempting as it probably was to take a fortnight off and hope that in her absence the bickering factions had imploded, she's surely entitled to fight her corner?

Was the Bank of England likely to predict that a no deal exit would result in anything other than volatility? I don't think May needed to deploy any smoke and mirrors to extract that prediction.

[Fife-Hibee]

What could they possibly have to offer society?

Chaos. Making sure that they ruin the futures of the younger generations before their last few years are up. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

A CNN report than you would never see from the BBC:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaT0Bc23-ic&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3p6P4YUepp6N7wo7dS6SeR_JZUKvpA49FI-zLlEXYf0N2ZuddzApXvGuQ

Beat me to it :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour, Greens, Libs and SNP bring forward joint motion at Holyrood rejecting deal and no-deal. Well done to all, great to see Scottish pols working together. :top marks

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtLTHF6X4AAoPxJ.jpg

[Hibbyradge]

Chaos. Making sure that they ruin the futures of the younger generations before their last few years are up. :rolleyes:

Poor stuff from you, FH.

[McSwanky]

Labour, Greens, Libs and SNP bring forward joint motion at Holyrood rejecting deal and no-deal. Well done to all, great to see Scottish pols working together. :top marks

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtLTHF6X4AAoPxJ.jpg

Pretty much political consensus in Scotland then, how many MSPs is that out of 129?

Westminster, take note.

Edit: FFS, I totally forgot the the Tories got so many seats last time around. 31? Who is voting for these people?

[CropleyWasGod]

Chaos. Making sure that they ruin the futures of the younger generations before their last few years are up. :rolleyes:

Seriously? :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

TV debate, Theresa 'Brexit is happening' and Jeremy 'there is no stopping Brexit'

Who will win? More to the point who will argue for no Brexit?

[JeMeSouviens]

TV debate, Theresa 'Brexit is happening' and Jeremy 'there is no stopping Brexit'

Who will win? More to the point who will argue for no Brexit?

Dead deal vs utter fantasy deal. It'd be more useful if they debated jam recipes. :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

Poor stuff from you, FH.


Seriously? :rolleyes:

Then tell me. What else is it?

What other motives would they have? They're robbing young people of the opportunities that they had when they were younger and for what? They've lived through their own prime. Brexit may not effect them much, but it's going to be hell for future generations. They deserve better.

[weecounty hibby]

A CNN report than you would never see from the BBC:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaT0Bc23-ic&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3p6P4YUepp6N7wo7dS6SeR_JZUKvpA49FI-zLlEXYf0N2ZuddzApXvGuQ
An unbiased report from a major news network. How very sad that it needs overseas reporters to reflect the mood of the majority in Scotland.

[CropleyWasGod]

Then tell me. What else is it?

What other motives would they have? They're robbing young people of the opportunities that they had when they were younger and for what? They've lived through their own prime. Brexit may not effect them much, but it's going to be hell for future generations. They deserve better.Do you seriously think that the older generation are deliberately making life difficult for their children and grandchildren?

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[Fife-Hibee]

Do you seriously think that the older generation are deliberately making life difficult for their children and grandchildren?

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Well they have a habit of doing the direct opposite of the younger generations, so I would say that they are. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Well they have a habit of doing the direct opposite of the younger generations, so I would say that they are. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from it.It's not the only logical conclusion at all.

How about the idea that they have their own opinion , and that they are expressing it, as is their right?

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[G B Young]

Well they have a habit of doing the direct opposite of the younger generations, so I would say that they are. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from it.

Yep, that sounds like the only logical conclusion to me.

Perish the thought that an 'old' person should still regard themselves as capable of forming a valid opinion of their own. They really should just hurry up and turn up their toes so that the much wiser youngsters can get on with things.

[G B Young]

Dead deal vs utter fantasy deal. It'd be more useful if they debated jam recipes. :rolleyes:

Agreed. I can only assume May is confident of making Corbyn look more clueless than usual given her first-hand expertise on the deal, but otherwise what are they actually going to 'debate'? They trade pre-scripted soundbites across the Commons most days so more of the same will be of little benefit to anyone.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's not the only logical conclusion at all.

How about the idea that they have their own opinion , and that they are expressing it, as is their right?

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If their opinion is that leaving is somehow good for the future, i'd be interested to know just how they arrived at that conclusion. I doubt that is something that we'll ever know though.


Yep, that sounds like the only logical conclusion to me.

Perish the thought that an 'old' person should still regard themselves as capable of forming a valid opinion of their own. They really should just hurry up and turn up their toes so that the much wiser youngsters can get on with things.

Have you asked any of them why they voted for this? If so, what reasons did they give you?

[Callum_62]

If their opinion is that leaving is somehow good for the future, i'd be interested to know just how they arrived at that conclusion. I doubt that is something that we'll ever know though.



Have you asked any of them why they voted for this? If so, what reasons did they give you?

Immigration was the overriding reason on the few old folk i know


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[Fife-Hibee]

Immigration was the overriding reason on the few old folk i know


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Yet, the immigrants they claim not to like, are rarely ever from the EU and will probably increase in number now due to the lack of skilled EU nationals. Surely a valid opinion should be an informed one? Not based on a few headings they read on the front cover of the Daily Mail.

[CropleyWasGod]

If their opinion is that leaving is somehow good for the future, i'd be interested to know just how they arrived at that conclusion. I doubt that is something that we'll ever know though.



Have you asked any of them why they voted for this? If so, what reasons did they give you?Perhaps you should ask them in the event of another referendum, and work to change their minds.

Writing them off as misguided or, as you have done, vindictive, is a sure way of ensuring that they will vote exactly the same way next time.

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[Callum_62]

Yet, the immigrants they claim not to like, are rarely ever from the EU and will probably increase in number now due to the lack of skilled EU nationals. Surely a valid opinion should be an informed one? Not based on a few headings they read on the front cover of the Daily Mail.

Funnily enough my retort was “there no even from the EU”

[emoji1751]*[emoji3603]


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[weecounty hibby]

Agreed. I can only assume May is confident of making Corbyn look more clueless than usual given her first-hand expertise on the deal, but otherwise what are they actually going to 'debate'? They trade pre-scripted soundbites across the Commons most days so more of the same will be of little benefit to anyone.
It wont be a debate on Brexit, more the first round in the campaign for the next General election. It is a waste of time having a public debate as the decision is now out of the publics hands, only MPs now have a say. May will be trying to show the UK that look at the other option you have if you dont vote for me at the next election. I believe it is one of the reasons that SNP/Libdems/Plaid etc will not be represented. I think she will make Corbyn look like the incompetent, dithering, protest leader that he is. To be honest I dont fancy any of the options so will, as usual, vote for a party who always puts Scotland first

[weecounty hibby]

Perhaps you should ask them in the event of another referendum, and work to change their minds.

Writing them off as misguided or, as you have done, vindictive, is a sure way of ensuring that they will vote exactly the same way next time.

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Totally agree with that. Fife-Hibee would appear to have the same political beliefs as me which I consider to be a good starting position. But we need to converse with and persuade the no voters rather than labelling them and chastising them. Even tho they were wrong:greengrin
At the last Indyref i managed to persuade a number of work colleagues and friends into voting yes by debate and discussion. There were some of them who will never change their minds but that doesnt mean that I will stop trying nor will I fall out with them.

[Hibbyradge]

If their opinion is that leaving is somehow good for the future, i'd be interested to know just how they arrived at that conclusion. I doubt that is something that we'll ever know though.

Have you asked any of them why they voted for this? If so, what reasons did they give you?

I volunteer as a befriender for Age UK. I currently visit an 86 yo gent who voted to leave the EU.

He did so because, having grown up during the war, he was uncomfortable with the power and authority that he perceived Germany is/was getting.

There's plenty research which shows that education was a factor in the demographics of the vote. As was geography.

The idea that anyone voted to spite the younger generations is risible, not to mention ageist.

[McD]

Yet, the immigrants they claim not to like, are rarely ever from the EU and will probably increase in number now due to the lack of skilled EU nationals. Surely a valid opinion should be an informed one? Not based on a few headings they read on the front cover of the Daily Mail.


I’m replying to your last comment but your whole trail of comments about older people is arrogant and dismissive of other people’s right to have opinions different to your own.


Is there a cut a cut off point where I, you, and everyone can expect to be told that their opinion is now outdated, ill informed and vindictive? The age of 55? 60? Or is it just older people who disagree with you who are cast in such light?

There are some people of that generation who don’t have internet access. But there are many who do, and who are aware of opinions beyond those found in the daily mail. Both ends of the spectrum, and every step in between, are entitled to possess and vote their opinion as they see fit - it’s called democracy, which your comments seem to sweep aside because they dare to think differently from you.

Im quite certain there are large elements of these generations who voted to remain, I take it you are insulting them by dismissing them due to their age also?

[Callum_62]

Is there ever been a time in semi recent history that immigrants haven’t been the problem?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Is there ever been a time in semi recent history that immigrants haven’t been the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot since 1875

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[Just Alf]

Is there ever been a time in semi recent history that immigrants haven’t been the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDepends...

If you mean the actual situation, then no, time and time again reports and analysis show that they add value to the economy, basically meaning a wee bit less financial pressure on the rest of the population.

If its soundbites etc unrelated to reality then yes we hear it quite a lot.

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[James310]

Yet, the immigrants they claim not to like, are rarely ever from the EU and will probably increase in number now due to the lack of skilled EU nationals. Surely a valid opinion should be an informed one? Not based on a few headings they read on the front cover of the Daily Mail.

Did you think those that voted No in IndyRef 'shat it'?

[Just Alf]

Not since 1875

Sent from my SM-A520F using TapatalkNailed it... I spent sooo much time typing on my phone with my answer ! :-)



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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Agreed. I can only assume May is confident of making Corbyn look more clueless than usual given her first-hand expertise on the deal, but otherwise what are they actually going to 'debate'? They trade pre-scripted soundbites across the Commons most days so more of the same will be of little benefit to anyone.

I dont see the point, unless we are getting a vote!

Plus, how can may win, given corbyn can just say pie in the sky things like 'id have gotten a better deal'.

[ACLeith]

Immigration was the overriding reason on the few old folk i know


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What is your age threshold for being classed as "old"? Is it physical ? Or an attitude of mind?

[Callum_62]

What is your age threshold for being classed as "old"? Is it physical ? Or an attitude of mind?

Talking about my dads age 60 plus


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[ACLeith]

Talking about my dads age 60 plus


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O dear there's no hope for me then. I think of your dad as a youngster 😱
But a wee hint - don't jump to conclusions about how I voted or my attitude to my grandchildren or young folk in general

[Callum_62]

O dear there's no hope for me then. I think of your dad as a youngster [emoji33]
But a wee hint - don't jump to conclusions about how I voted or my attitude to my grandchildren or young folk in general

What are you talking about?

Whos jumping to conclusions on anything?

I said the older folk i talked to there over riding decision was based on immigration

Thats facts, not assumptions - sure your no confusing me with another post?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Talking about my dads age 60 plus


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDeary me

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[Callum_62]

Deary me

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Deary me what?

I talked to the older folk in my family - whats A senior citizen age these days likes?


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[ACLeith]

What are you talking about?

Whos jumping to conclusions on anything?

I said the older folk i talked to there over riding decision was based on immigration

Thats facts, not assumptions - sure your no confusing me with another post?


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Almost all the "old" folk I have spoken to about the vote voted Remain and feel generally positive about the mix of folk in our society. All about our own experiences but don't tar everyone of certain age the same way.

[Callum_62]

Almost all the "old" folk I have spoken to about the vote voted Remain and feel generally positive about the mix of folk in our society. All about our own experiences but don't tar everyone of certain age the same way.

Who tarred anyone?

Your the one making assumptions on my thinking

I simply stated my experience with a group of people i know

I didnt go on a rant about anyone else. Thats my experience - i don’t take that and apply it to everyone over 60 [emoji23]


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[CropleyWasGod]

Deary me what?

I talked to the older folk in my family - whats A senior citizen age these days likes?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't know anyone under the age of 80 who voted to leave.

60 is sure as hell not old.[emoji38]

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[Callum_62]

I don't know anyone under the age of 80 who voted to leave.

60 is sure as hell not old.[emoji38]

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My dad did - but then hes an idiot [emoji23]

60 is senior citizen age right?

I just know theyve been using random trains because they get them for £2 now or something [emoji23][emoji23]

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[Hibbyradge]

My dad did - but then hes an idiot [emoji23]

60 is senior citizen age right?

I just know theyve been using random trains because they get them for £2 now or something [emoji23][emoji23]

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State pension is paid at minimum age 65. It's going up to 68 and will increase again soon.

There are many people still working in their 70s.

[Callum_62]

State pension is paid at minimum age 65. It's going up to 68 and will increase again soon.

There are many people still working in their 70s.

I better update my life expectancy aspirations [emoji23]

Just because the state pension age is rising doesn’t change the definition of older does it?


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[Hibbyradge]

I better update my life expectancy aspirations [emoji23]

Just because the state pension age is rising doesn’t change the definition of older does it?


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I think there's a number of aspects which change the definition of old.

Attitude, life expectancy, mobility, activity and social interaction to name a few.

60 is not old.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/sixty-new-40-healthy-living-5525916

[The Tubs]

I’m thirty-nine and consider myself as well over the hill.

[CropleyWasGod]

My dad did - but then hes an idiot [emoji23]

60 is senior citizen age right?

I just know theyve been using random trains because they get them for £2 now or something [emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'd keep quiet if I were you. FH will be sending out a hit squad for your folks.[emoji16]

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[Moulin Yarns]

Then tell me. What else is it?

What other motives would they have? They're robbing young people of the opportunities that they had when they were younger and for what? They've lived through their own prime. Brexit may not effect them much, but it's going to be hell for future generations. They deserve better.

Well, here is an older person that voted remain, retired early and has no children to worry about.

I voted remain for the best future for our country.

I retired early to give someone else a chance to work.

I didn't have children because the world is fu ck Ed.

How do I fit in with your blinkered view?

[Callum_62]

I think there's a number of aspects which change the definition of old.

Attitude, life expectancy, mobility, activity and social interaction to name a few.

60 is not old.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/sixty-new-40-healthy-living-5525916

60 middle aged? How many folk live to 120?

The life expectancy in scotland is 77 for males


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[Callum_62]

Well, here is an older person that voted remain, retired early and has no children to worry about.

I voted remain for the best future for our country.

I retired early to give someone else a chance to work.

I didn't have children because the world is fu ck Ed.

How do I fit in with your blinkered view?

You must the most important part - what age is older?

[emoji23]


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[Bristolhibby]

Immigration was the overriding reason on the few old folk i know


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As mentioned here.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/racist-nan-definitely-going-to-bother-20160623109718

[Hibbyradge]

60 middle aged? How many folk live to 120?

The life expectancy in scotland is 77 for males


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FFS Callum! :faf:

Middle aged doesn't mean the middle of your lifespan.

[Moulin Yarns]

You must the most important part - what age is older?

[emoji23]


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Old enough to know better 😉

[Callum_62]

FFS Callum! :faf:

Middle aged doesn't mean the middle of your lifespan.

Ah, sorry - your saying it means any age where your mobile, fit, healthy?

Why cant it mean middle of your expected lifespan?


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[Callum_62]

As mentioned here.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/racist-nan-definitely-going-to-bother-20160623109718

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] absolutely correct

“Even if it took her 30 mins to get her coat on” [emoji23]


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[Hibrandenburg]

The vote amongst my older friends was split fairly evenly, however most of those who voted to leave voted so on fake news. Fake news is not a new phenomena, there's always been fake news and it's reasonable to say that in the past it was rarely questioned or at the very least those questioning it didn't have a platform to do so. The internet and social media in particular have changed that, like Mulder and Scully used to say "the truth is out there".

The demographic breakdown of the referendum shows that the over 50's voted to leave and the under 50's to stay, there's no arguing with that. The question is why? I don't believe they did it to spite the young uns, more likely because they've been sold decades of bullmanure from sources that they consider or considered to be gospel.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading/14/11/

[Fife-Hibee]

Well, here is an older person that voted remain, retired early and has no children to worry about.

I voted remain for the best future for our country.

I retired early to give someone else a chance to work.

I didn't have children because the world is fu ck Ed.

How do I fit in with your blinkered view?

I said old people voted to leave, I never said all of them did.

So my view isn't "blinkered" as you put it. The older demographic voted to leave. This is a fact, not a "blinkered" opinion.

[Hibbyradge]

Ah, sorry - your saying it means any age where your mobile, fit, healthy?

Why cant it mean middle of your expected lifespan?


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Google is your friend. Try it.

[Callum_62]

Google is your friend. Try it.

60+ isnt so far off then for old age

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/ff6d68d5e18c0e9653ab62b70a67ae20.jpg


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[Hibbyradge]

I said old people voted to leave, I never said all of them did.

So my view isn't "blinkered" as you put it. The older demographic voted to leave. This is a fact, not a "blinkered" opinion.

The blinkered opinion was that people voted to leave to spite younger people and because they didn't have to live with the consequences.

[Hibbyradge]

60+ isnt so far off then for old age

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/ff6d68d5e18c0e9653ab62b70a67ae20.jpg


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Good. Now you understand what middle age is.

Middle age is getting later as we live longer.

[CropleyWasGod]

Good. Now you understand what middle age is.

Middle age is getting later as we live longer....which will give us even more time to ruin the lives of our kids. [emoji6]

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[Fife-Hibee]

The blinkered opinion was that people voted to leave to spite younger people and because they didn't have to live with the consequences.

It will be bad for young people. Many of the hard-brexit mentality brigade won't be around in 5-10 years time. Or do you disagree?

[Callum_62]

Good. Now you understand what middle age is.

Middle age is getting later as we live longer.

So 65ish is old age....60+ isnt too far off then

Just out if interest i text my mate who is a few years younger than me - what age do you think is old? No context was given

50 he said

Told him no to bother visiting The Holy Ground [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

It will be bad for young people. Many of the hard-brexit mentality brigade won't be around in 5-10 years time. Or do you disagree?

People’s viewpoints and perspectives change as they age. Old people having different views from the younger generation has been around far longer than anyone on here has lived.

Also the proportion of the population that is ‘old’ is growing not falling. And I doubt you will know what proportion of those ‘new olds’ will be part of the hard Brexit brigade or not. Nor what percentage of them would need to be Europhiles to change the dynamic of your already rather broad and large homogeneous group...

Which leaves me thinking that someone who is assuming what a very large group of people will think in 15 years time, and then pinning their hopes on it being what they are thinking now, is a probably someone on a fools errand.

[Fife-Hibee]

People’s viewpoints and perspectives change as they age. Old people having different views from the younger generation has been around far longer than anyone on here has lived.

Also the proportion of the population that is ‘old’ is growing not falling. And I doubt you will know what proportion of those ‘new olds’ will be part of the hard Brexit brigade or not. Nor what percentage of them would need to be Europhiles to change the dynamic of your already rather broad and large homogeneous group...

Which leaves me thinking that someone who is assuming what a very large group of people will think in 15 years time, and then pinning their hopes on it being what they are thinking now, is a probably someone on a fools errand.

Previous generations did not have access to the kind of media platforms we have now. Of course peoples views can change as they age. However, the next generation of seniors will know how to access a multitude of information at their finger tips. They're not going to be limited by one way propaganda. That's a major difference.

[RyeSloan]

Previous generations did not have access to the kind of media platforms we have now. Of course peoples views can change as they age. However, the next generation of seniors will know how to access a multitude of information at their finger tips. They're not going to be limited by one way propaganda. That's a major difference.

As so the new old will be wiser than the old old and the new old will just happen to have a similar perspective to you now because of that?

[Fife-Hibee]

As so the new old will be wiser than the old old and the new old will just happen to have a similar perspective to you now because of that?

I'm simply pointing out evolutionary changes in the way that we access information, whether you agree with it on principle or not. I personally believe it's foolish to assume that the current trend will continue as it is, with such major changes.

[Bristolhibby]

As so the new old will be wiser than the old old and the new old will just happen to have a similar perspective to you now because of that?

I think he has a point. My only fear is there is a new technology that we (I’m in my late 30s) will be locked out of and be bamboozled with.

Think ready player one type VR, holo suites, AI, etc.

J

[RyeSloan]

I'm simply pointing out evolutionary changes in the way that we access information, whether you agree with it on principle or not. I personally believe it's foolish to assume that the current trend will continue as it is, with such major changes.

Aside from the fact that many old old can and do already access such media I’m merely suggesting it’s foolish to predict what those trends will do in terms of people’s voting perspectives in 15 years time and the impact they will have on how the ‘old’ vote (in this case re the EU).

Anyhoo I think May gets her vote on 11 Dec so think I’ll tune back out until then as I’m Brexited oot already since the ‘deal’ was published.

[RyeSloan]

I think he has a point. My only fear is there is a new technology that we (I’m in my late 30s) will be locked out of and be bamboozled with.

Think ready player one type VR, holo suites, AI, etc.

J

I’d probably spend your time worrying about more important things to be honest [emoji12]

Not being able to use a VR headset is unlikely to impact your cognitive abilities to create a considered and informed opinion no matter how old you get [emoji106][emoji2532][emoji1]

[James310]

I think the deal will be rejected in Parliament, we will have a few days of panic and constitutional crisis before MPs will decide we need a second vote. We will ask for an extension to the March 29th deadline which the EU will happily give us. Second referendum around Easter time, a narrow remain vote will come through this time and we go back to where we were.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the deal will be rejected in Parliament, we will have a few days of panic and constitutional crisis before MPs will decide we need a second vote. We will ask for an extension to the March 29th deadline which the EU will happily give us. Second referendum around Easter time, a narrow remain vote will come through this time and we go back to where we were.

Said similar the day after the vote. Only thing I'd add now is that right wing parties will gain support and we'll see a violent right wing backlash.

[Hibbyradge]

It will be bad for young people. Many of the hard-brexit mentality brigade won't be around in 5-10 years time. Or do you disagree?

It will be bad for everyone, but that's not the point. You said that older folk deliberately voted to leave to spite younger people.

That is abject nonsense.

[G B Young]

I'm simply pointing out evolutionary changes in the way that we access information, whether you agree with it on principle or not. I personally believe it's foolish to assume that the current trend will continue as it is, with such major changes.

I hadn't realised you were serious with your ageist agenda. Your generalisations about 'old' people are discriminatory and depressing in an era where inclusion and diversity are what I'd suggest most right-minded people are striving for. Whether or not folk have internet access seems an extraordinary barometer by which to measure their worth to society and I'd suggest the internet (social media in particular), has the capacity to inflict as much damage on a user's viewpoint as it does to enhance it. Everyone, young, old or somewhere in between was entitled to vote however they saw fit. You may not agree with the majority who voted to leave the EU but to suggest that the older folk who did so were motivated by spite for the younger generation is mind-boggling.

[JeMeSouviens]

I hadn't realised you were serious with your ageist agenda. Your generalisations about 'old' people are discriminatory and depressing in an era where inclusion and diversity are what I'd suggest most right-minded people are striving for. Whether or not folk have internet access seems an extraordinary barometer by which to measure their worth to society and I'd suggest the internet (social media in particular), has the capacity to inflict as much damage on a user's viewpoint as it does to enhance it. Everyone, young, old or somewhere in between was entitled to vote however they saw fit. You may not agree with the majority who voted to leave the EU but to suggest that the older folk who did so were motivated by spite for the younger generation is mind-boggling.

Agree with this. The internet is very much a double edged sword when it comes to the flow of information. The curriculum for excellence has as its underpinning developing critical faculties. I hope it works because I think in general my generation are moderately hopeless!

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the deal will be rejected in Parliament, we will have a few days of panic and constitutional crisis before MPs will decide we need a second vote. We will ask for an extension to the March 29th deadline which the EU will happily give us. Second referendum around Easter time, a narrow remain vote will come through this time and we go back to where we were.

Yes please!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Yes please!

Or a 2nd vote that still narrowly goes with leave but Scotland overwhelmingly votes remain again.

I don't know where we'd be if the remain vote was something like 80-85% in Scotland and we were still dragged out. Surely a constitutional crisis ?

[Smartie]

Or a 2nd vote that still narrowly goes with leave but Scotland overwhelmingly votes remain again.

I don't know where we'd be if the remain vote was something like 80-85% in Scotland and we were still dragged out. Surely a constitutional crisis ?

Yes and no.

I voted the way I did in 2014 (yes) because I see Scotland and England as very different places, with different needs and wants that in my opinion cannot be reconciled. Both can have their own way, but they cannot be together in Union.

If we respect the "No" vote from 2014 we just have to suck this up. We've made our bed, now we must lie in it. The 55% won, and only one of the costs of that victory is the Scotland being subjected to the Brexit omnishambles against it's will - only it's not against our will, as we signed up for our future to be decided in this way.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hilary Benn (Dad no doubt birling in grave) has put down an amendment rejecting May's deal and no deal. Seems to be going to be supported by Labour and SNP front benches so has a good chance of being carried.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hilary Benn (Dad no doubt birling in grave) has put down an amendment rejecting May's deal and no deal. Seems to be going to be supported by Labour and SNP front benches so has a good chance of being carried.

I read this last night and it has support across all parties, even tories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46390395

[lord bunberry]

Or a 2nd vote that still narrowly goes with leave but Scotland overwhelmingly votes remain again.

I don't know where we'd be if the remain vote was something like 80-85% in Scotland and we were still dragged out. Surely a constitutional crisis ?

From what I’ve been reading on social media a lot of independence supporters are planning on boycotting any second EU referendum. The argument seems to be that no matter how we vote in Scotland we will get whatever England decides. I’ve have a fair bit of sympathy with that view, but I would probably vote as I’d hate to think leave would win again because we didn’t vote. I’m still undecided though.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Hilary Benn (Dad no doubt birling in grave) has put down an amendment rejecting May's deal and no deal. Seems to be going to be supported by Labour and SNP front benches so has a good chance of being carried.

Sensible move, and can see this being supported.

As another poster alluded to above, we're heading towards May's deal being rejected and a second referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

Donald Tusk at the G20 saying if Parliament rejected the deal there is a chance of no deal or no Brexit.

Please do the sensible thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

TM the PM told sky news that she can't see an alternative to her deal..

Open your effing eyes you idiot.

[Moulin Yarns]

According to Theresa May nobody has put up an alternative plan and only her deal protects jobs.

In other news she is meeting the crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

[Moulin Yarns]

Words fail me!

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1068474398594818049?s=19

[Slavers]

Words fail me!

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1068474398594818049?s=19

You'd like to get her under the mistletoe and wish her a Very merry Christmas!

[Moulin Yarns]

Hilary Benn (Dad no doubt birling in grave) has put down an amendment rejecting May's deal and no deal. Seems to be going to be supported by Labour and SNP front benches so has a good chance of being carried.

https://twitter.com/hilarybennmp/status/1068209119683928067?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1068478176987414528?s=19

[grunt]

If we respect the "No" vote from 2014 we just have to suck this up. We've made our bed, now we must lie in it. The 55% won, and only one of the costs of that victory is the Scotland being subjected to the Brexit omnishambles against it's will - only it's not against our will, as we signed up for our future to be decided in this way.Sorry but I beg to differ. The "staying in the EU" argument was a major factor for me voting No in 2014. How I regret that decision! The EU referendum result is as clear a material change in circumstances as it is possible to imagine. So as far as I'm concerned, the 2014 vote is history. We vote again in #indyref2 and this time I get it right.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry but I beg to differ. The "staying in the EU" argument was a major factor for me voting No in 2014. How I regret that decision! The EU referendum result is as clear a material change in circumstances as it is possible to imagine. So as far as I'm concerned, the 2014 vote is history. We vote again in #indyref2 and this time I get it right.

Out of interest, does your Yes vote depend on being a way out of Brexit for Scotland or would you vote Yes next time* even if Brexit is cancelled?


* which admittedly would probably be a bit further off given it would invalidate the "material change" mandate.

[Fife-Hibee]

Out of interest, does your Yes vote depend on being a way out of Brexit for Scotland or would you vote Yes next time* even if Brexit is cancelled?


* which admittedly would probably be a bit further off given it would invalidate the "material change" mandate.

No chance of brexit being cancelled now. It would trigger wide scale riots across England and give rise to UKIP. I can see the issue looping back to parliament several times over, until a hard brexit becomes the ultimate outcome.

[Moulin Yarns]

Apparently honouring the results of a vote doesn't extend to her Prime ministerness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46394431

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46394431)



Theresa May has refused to rule out another Commons vote on her Brexit deal if MPs reject it the first time.

[grunt]

Out of interest, does your Yes vote depend on being a way out of Brexit for Scotland or would you vote Yes next time* even if Brexit is cancelled?

* which admittedly would probably be a bit further off given it would invalidate the "material change" mandate.Difficult to answer in a few words, as it's a complicated issue. Suffice to say, I was a marginal "No" in 2014, and I was swayed by the EU thing, and concerns over Scotland's ability to be economically self-sufficient. The EU referendum vote has changed all that, and my current thinking is based on a different set of values - I no longer want to be a part to the bigoted, racist, xenophobic English view of the world. In the years since 2014, I have grown to appreciate the values and outlook of the Scottish Government. So that's a "Yes", whatever happens with Brexit.


No chance of brexit being cancelled now. It would trigger wide scale riots across England and give rise to UKIP. I can see the issue looping back to parliament several times over, until a hard brexit becomes the ultimate outcome. I hope and pray that you are wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

No chance of brexit being cancelled now. It would trigger wide scale riots across England and give rise to UKIP. I can see the issue looping back to parliament several times over, until a hard brexit becomes the ultimate outcome.

I think the riots stuff is overblown. The demographic of the Leave voter is overwhelmingly old and Tory. Can you imagine Boris or Rees Mogg leading a riot?

If the result of the meaningful vote is as humiliating as most are predicting and there is a no no-deal amendment then we could very well end up in 2nd ref territory because I think the Brexiteers will fancy their chances of winning again rather than settling for Norway. I think/hope/pray they'll lose but I think it could be very close again.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i really do wish the dancing queen would stop saying 'this is what the UK voted for' every 2 mins, the vote was for Brexit, and Brexit MEANS Brexit, not just wee bits here and there, it means Brexit, something i don't understand is why some are suggesting there might not be a Brexit :confused: she goes on about 'this is about delivering what the people of the UK voted for' so why the **** does she make threats about there possibly not being a Brexit at all if her deal is voted down by westminster :rolleyes: just get the **** on with it, Brexit.....................then look forward to Indy2 being a mega-massive YES even sooner than planned :greengrin




oh and P.S. Ram yer happy St Andrew's day message tess hen

[Fife-Hibee]

I think the riots stuff is overblown. The demographic of the Leave voter is overwhelmingly old and Tory. Can you imagine Boris or Rees Mogg leading a riot?

:shhhsh!:
You're not allow to say that on here. :wink:
There may not be riots, but there is nothing to stop them ticking UKIP on the ballot paper.


If the result of the meaningful vote is as humiliating as most are predicting and there is a no no-deal amendment then we could very well end up in 2nd ref territory because I think the Brexiteers will fancy their chances of winning again rather than settling for Norway. I think/hope/pray they'll lose but I think it could be very close again.

I don't think the brexiteers will want to see it again, even if they think they could win. They will just argue that they have already won and that we should "just get on with it". Regardless of whether the deal is accepted or rejected in parliament, I just can't see an EU referendum re-run.

[JeMeSouviens]

Difficult to answer in a few words, as it's a complicated issue. Suffice to say, I was a marginal "No" in 2014, and I was swayed by the EU thing, and concerns over Scotland's ability to be economically self-sufficient. The EU referendum vote has changed all that, and my current thinking is based on a different set of values - I no longer want to be a part to the bigoted, racist, xenophobic English view of the world. In the years since 2014, I have grown to appreciate the values and outlook of the Scottish Government. So that's a "Yes", whatever happens with Brexit.

I hope and pray that you are wrong.

Thanks, interesting answer.

[JeMeSouviens]

:shhhsh!:
You're not allow to say that on here. :wink:
Their may not be riots, but there is nothing to stop them ticking UKIP on the ballot paper.



I don't think the brexiteers will want to see it again, even if they think they could win. They will just argue that they have already won and that we should "just get on with it". Regardless of whether the deal is accepted or rejected in parliament, I just can't see an EU referendum re-run.

I think you're allowed to say it (there's a ton of polling evidence to back it up after all). It's attributing malign motives to them that tends to go down badly. :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

I think you're allowed to say it (there's a ton of polling evidence to back it up after all). It's attributing malign motives to them that tends to go down badly. :wink:

Perhaps it's just the area I live in. There's a lot of angry auld snobby folk around. But then again, I am in the western end of Edinburgh. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/_PaulMonaghan/status/1068278489785266181?s=19

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/_PaulMonaghan/status/1068278489785266181?s=19

Don't get too excited, GDP != tax revenue

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think there was any consciously malign motive for the way certain demographics voted in the EU or independence referendums.

I would argue there is a 'pulling up the drawbridge' mentality among a sizable section of the boomer generation though; particularly in areas such as pensions, housing and education. I suppose the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is the default position for many.

[weecounty hibby]

Difficult to answer in a few words, as it's a complicated issue. Suffice to say, I was a marginal "No" in 2014, and I was swayed by the EU thing, and concerns over Scotland's ability to be economically self-sufficient. The EU referendum vote has changed all that, and my current thinking is based on a different set of values - I no longer want to be a part to the bigoted, racist, xenophobic English view of the world. In the years since 2014, I have grown to appreciate the values and outlook of the Scottish Government. So that's a "Yes", whatever happens with Brexit.
Great answer and one that I hope and pray that would be replicated across Scotland. Since 2014 and even more so with the Brexit fiasco my attitude has definitely hardened toward being independent as a nation. I just can't see that overall there would be a downside to it

[ronaldo7]

See through what? A packed fortnight of activity targeted at mustering support for the deal she believes is the right one? Sounds like a pretty transparent strategy that any politician in a similar position would adopt. Tempting as it probably was to take a fortnight off and hope that in her absence the bickering factions had imploded, she's surely entitled to fight her corner?

Was the Bank of England likely to predict that a no deal exit would result in anything other than volatility? I don't think May needed to deploy any smoke and mirrors to extract that prediction.

People can see through her bluff, and bluster. Deal, what deal, she's kicking the can down the road, or trying to.

Her backbenchers will have the blades out soon enough

[Fife-Hibee]

People can see through her bluff, and bluster. Deal, what deal, she's kicking the can down the road, or trying to.

Her backbenchers will have the blades out soon enough

Her deal is deliberately bad. She was a hard brexiteer the whole damn time. Yet people still believe she was a soft remainer, simply because she said that she was. Because you know.... Theresa May is known for her honesty and transparency, apparently.

[ronaldo7]

Her deal is deliberately bad. She was a hard brexiteer the whole damn time. Yet people still believe she was a soft remainer, simply because she said that she was. Because you know.... Theresa May is known for her honesty and transparency, apparently.

Not in Scotland, apparently. :wink:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3559945/glasgow-theresa-may-cnn-buchanan-street/

[Fife-Hibee]

Not in Scotland, apparently. :wink:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3559945/glasgow-theresa-may-cnn-buchanan-street/

Glad to see the sun decided to report on it after I had a right good go at them over Twitter. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps it's just the area I live in. There's a lot of angry auld snobby folk around. But then again, I am in the western end of Edinburgh. :wink:As am I.

Yep, the mean streets of Davidson's Mains can be hell for youngsters. Full of Hell's Grannies, who have nothing better to do than make life **** for everyone else. A scourge on society, and the sooner they die off the better....

So that more old people can take their place.

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[danhibees1875]

As am I.

Yep, the mean streets of Davidson's Mains can be hell for youngsters. Full of Hell's Grannies, who have nothing better to do than make life **** for everyone else. A scourge on society, and the sooner they die off the better....

So that more old people can take their place.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Yes, but we'll be smarterer old folk. :agree:


Anyway, the sooner we just cancel the whole shebang and put constitutional matters to rest for a wee while the better for all IMO.

[Fife-Hibee]

As am I.

Yep, the mean streets of Davidson's Mains can be hell for youngsters. Full of Hell's Grannies, who have nothing better to do than make life **** for everyone else. A scourge on society, and the sooner they die off the better....

So that more old people can take their place.

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You're being foolish if you think that's what I meant. Either that, or you're one of those hyperactive "jump the gun" types. Looking to twist or skew anything a person has to say to justify a sense of feeling offended.

Odd behaviour, but definitely more common in modern society.

[CropleyWasGod]

You're being foolish if you think that's what I meant. Either that, or you're one of those hyperactive "jump the gun" types. Looking to twist or skew anything a person has to say to justify a sense of feeling offended.

Odd behaviour, but definitely more common in modern society.Given what you said about old people voting to spite the young, is it any wonder that people might want to take the piss?

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[Saturday Boy]

I’m 60 in a few weeks.

I’m not sure if that’s old, but I’d never considered being spiteful or vindictive towards young people.

I’m looking forward to giving it a try now 😄

[McD]

You're being foolish if you think that's what I meant. Either that, or you're one of those hyperactive "jump the gun" types. Looking to twist or skew anything a person has to say to justify a sense of feeling offended.

Odd behaviour, but definitely more common in modern society.


you said that old people had voted leave to spite the younger generations, in what way has that been twisted?


(apart from some gentle pisstaking)

[grunt]

I’m 60 in a few weeks.

Don't forget to apply https://www.mygov.scot/older-persons-bus-pass/

[Fife-Hibee]

Given what you said about old people voting to spite the young, is it any wonder that people might want to take the piss?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I put the idea out there to be challenged and was met with knee jerk reactions. The way I see it, if somebody says something that is so outrageously wrong, then it would be rather easy to debunk using factual information, as opposed to petty emotional outbursts. But that's just my perspective.

[Saturday Boy]

Don't forget to apply https://www.mygov.scot/older-persons-bus-pass/

Thanks. I checked out my local council website.

It helpfully says that you can apply two weeks in advance and that your card can take three weeks to arrive.

Typical East Lothian, already cheated out of a week and I’ve not even applied yet 😄

[CropleyWasGod]

I put the idea out there to be challenged and was met with knee jerk reactions. The way I see it, if somebody says something that is so outrageously wrong, then it would be rather easy to debunk using factual information, as opposed to petty emotional outbursts. But that's just my perspective.

No you didn't.

You put it out there and, when you were challenged, said that it was the "only logical conclusion". I think it's for you to support your claim with facts and evidence.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[JoeT]

I'm getting to the point that there probably isn't any middle ground. All or nothing. Deal is a crappy compromise that nobody seems to want. Lets go for a new referendum where we either stay and no change or we go and put 2 fingers up and deploy the navy in the Channel.....

[Bristolhibby]

No chance of brexit being cancelled now. It would trigger wide scale riots across England and give rise to UKIP. I can see the issue looping back to parliament several times over, until a hard brexit becomes the ultimate outcome.

See I can see the opposite happening.

Bring it on. If these right wingers are pissed off then we are doing something right.

Bring on the Angry Gammon!

J

[Bristolhibby]

Difficult to answer in a few words, as it's a complicated issue. Suffice to say, I was a marginal "No" in 2014, and I was swayed by the EU thing, and concerns over Scotland's ability to be economically self-sufficient. The EU referendum vote has changed all that, and my current thinking is based on a different set of values - I no longer want to be a part to the bigoted, racist, xenophobic English view of the world. In the years since 2014, I have grown to appreciate the values and outlook of the Scottish Government. So that's a "Yes", whatever happens with Brexit.

I hope and pray that you are wrong.

Good man!

We will get there in the end.

J

[lord bunberry]

I put the idea out there to be challenged and was met with knee jerk reactions. The way I see it, if somebody says something that is so outrageously wrong, then it would be rather easy to debunk using factual information, as opposed to petty emotional outbursts. But that's just my perspective.
I think you’re wrong that the older generation voted to spite the young, but I do believe lots of them voted no without considering the long term consequences for the generations that will follow them. I suppose it’s fair enough as everyone votes the way they do for selfish reasons. I firmly believe that independence would’ve been so good for this country and we wouldn’t currently be going through the shambles we are now if we’d voted yes. My daughter will now not be able to enjoy the freedom of movement that we all enjoyed.

[HibbyDave]

European court of Justice decision is due to be published on Tuesday.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think you’re wrong that the older generation voted to spite the young, but I do believe lots of them voted no without considering the long term consequences for the generations that will follow them. I suppose it’s fair enough as everyone votes the way they do for selfish reasons. I firmly believe that independence would’ve been so good for this country and we wouldn’t currently be going through the shambles we are now if we’d voted yes. My daughter will now not be able to enjoy the freedom of movement that we all enjoyed.Taking up the freedom of movement issue.

In the event of Brexit, and Independence within the EU, would your daughter not lose the right to work in rUK? That's the kind of stuff that makes this such a cluster****.

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[matty_f]

:shhhsh!:
You're not allow to say that on here. :wink:
There may not be riots, but there is nothing to stop them ticking UKIP on the ballot paper.



.

You are allowed to say it, just expect folk to disagree (which they're also allowed to do).

[James310]

Taking up the freedom of movement issue.

In the event of Brexit, and Independence within the EU, would your daughter not lose the right to work in rUK? That's the kind of stuff that makes this such a cluster****.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

She could well lose that right, but that's conveniently ignored. Independence will obviously have some benefits but I think like Brexit there will be lots to come out in the wash if we ever get there. If people think Brexit is complicated and we never knew what we voted for then Independance will be 10 times worse. It's incumbent on the parties to be clear if there is an IndyRef2 what they are actually voting for.

[grunt]

In the event of Brexit, and Independence within the EU, would your daughter not lose the right to work in rUK? I guess she'd have to weigh up the value of free movement within 27 mostly outward looking welcoming countries, or free movement within England. Tough choice.



That's the kind of stuff that makes this such a cluster****.Indeed. It's quite incredible to consider the depths to which the Tories have sunk us in three short years.

[weecounty hibby]

She could well lose that right, but that's conveniently ignored. Independence will obviously have some benefits but I think like Brexit there will be lots to come out in the wash if we ever get there. If people think Brexit is complicated and we never knew what we voted for then Independance will be 10 times worse. It's incumbent on the parties to be clear if there is an IndyRef2 what they are actually voting for.
Can't be much clearer than "the vow" the day before the referendum vote. About as honest as the Boris bus. In your opinion it will be 10 X worse. In my opinion it won't. And thats about as scientific as your assertion above

[James310]

I guess she'd have to weigh up the value of free movement within 27 mostly outward looking welcoming countries, or free movement within England. Tough choice.


Indeed. It's quite incredible to consider the depths to which the Tories have sunk us in three short years.

You make it sound like England and its people are the devil incarnate. Don't tar a whole country with the same brush because there are some idiots. We have our fair share in this country as well. Suggests you have an issue with English people?

There will be far more Scots living and working in England than there will be in the rest of the EU.

[CropleyWasGod]

I guess she'd have to weigh up the value of free movement within 27 mostly outward looking welcoming countries, or free movement within England. Tough choice.


Indeed. It's quite incredible to consider the depths to which the Tories have sunk us in three short years. Yeah I get that. But to remove England completely from the equation seems utterly bonkers. Not to mention the loss of English and Welsh talent to our own economy.

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[Fife-Hibee]

A wee translation of Theresa May's St Andrew's Day message for anyone who missed it. :cb


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVhkbI1fakk

[grunt]

You make it sound like England and its people are the devil incarnate. Don't tar a whole country with the same brush because there are some idiots. We have our fair share in this country as well. Suggests you have an issue with English people?

There will be far more Scots living and working in England than there will be in the rest of the EU.
You are quite possibly correct. But then I am English myself and i work 4 days a week in England. So who knows?

[CropleyWasGod]

You are quite possibly correct. But then I am English myself and i work 4 days a week in England. So who knows?Boom [emoji16]

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[grunt]

Yeah I get that. But to remove England completely from the equation seems utterly bonkers. Not to mention the loss of English and Welsh talent to our own economy.Oh I agree. But it wasn't our decision to put up a barrier between England and the EU. So I guess we'll just have to do the best we can.

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh I agree. But it wasn't our decision to put up a barrier between England and the EU. So I guess we'll just have to do the best we can.You're first up against Hadrian's Wall, by the way [emoji6]

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[weecounty hibby]

You are quite possibly correct. But then I am English myself and i work 4 days a week in England. So who knows?

No you can't be, everybody knows that the folk who want independence and don't necessarily see the English as our brothers is an anti English, foaming at the mouth Robbie the Pict type. Great comeback by the way!!

[grunt]

You're first up against Hadrian's Wall, by the way [emoji6]Thank you. Although it would depend which day of the week you came looking for me as to which side i was on.

And I mean side as geographic position not side as in position in a conflict.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thank you. Although it would depend which day of the week you came looking for me as to which side i was on.

And I mean side as geographic position not side as in position in a conflict.And I meant you're building it [emoji16]

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[Fife-Hibee]

Yeah I get that. But to remove England completely from the equation seems utterly bonkers. Not to mention the loss of English and Welsh talent to our own economy.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Scotland has plenty of talents of it's own and nobody is talking about removing England completely from the equation. That's the sort of over the top rhetoric we got in 2014 with talks of family and friends being blocked off from each other for all eternity. People will continue to migrate back and forth between Scotland and England. It's just that it won't be borderless. We're not rebuilding Hadrians wall. Trade and migration will continue, as it will be in the interests of England and Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

Taking up the freedom of movement issue.

In the event of Brexit, and Independence within the EU, would your daughter not lose the right to work in rUK? That's the kind of stuff that makes this such a cluster****.

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I wasn’t necessarily talking about working, I was thinking more about university and travelling. Travelling will obviously still be possible, but it certainly won’t be the same as we’ve enjoyed. I just think it’s a huge step backwards in a continent that’s trying to look forward. People in Britain seem to recoil when more integration is suggested, but for me the more integration the better. I want independence for Scotland, not because I believe we would be better on our own, I want it because I want us to be part of a modern society and be rid of the backward looking attitudes that have taken over these islands.

[lord bunberry]

One phrase from the First World War that seems to spring to my mind a lot these days is shackled to a corpse. That’s a bit how I feel now.

[CropleyWasGod]

Scotland has plenty of talents of it's own and nobody is talking about removing England completely from the equation. That's the sort of over the top rhetoric we got in 2014 with talks of family and friends being blocked off from each other for all eternity. People will continue to migrate back and forth between Scotland and England. It's just that it won't be borderless. We're not rebuilding Hadrians wall. Trade and migration will continue, as it will be in the interests of England and Scotland.I think you have missed my point.

I was talking about a scenario where Scotland is in the EU, and England isn't. In that situation, freedom of movement would be an issue. And it's the type of question that would need to be addressed to convince people to vote Yes.

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[weecounty hibby]

I think you have missed my point.

I was talking about a scenario where Scotland is in the EU, and England isn't. In that situation, freedom of movement would be an issue. And it's the type of question that would need to be addressed to convince people to vote Yes.

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But it's acceptable to deny FOM to the other European countries just as long as it's not to England? Let's not forget which of the European countries is becoming insular and seems to want to become isolated. I'll give you a clue, it's not Scotland

[Fife-Hibee]

I think you have missed my point.

I was talking about a scenario where Scotland is in the EU, and England isn't. In that situation, freedom of movement would be an issue. And it's the type of question that would need to be addressed to convince people to vote Yes.

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No, I understand that. There wouldn't be freedom of movement between Scotland and England, just as there wouldn't be freedom of movement between England and other EU member states. However, no freedom of movement doesn't mean no migration back and forth, it just means that there will be border checks in place to check who is just visiting and who meets the criteria to live and work in Scotland/England.

We need to be realistic about this. There is no ideal situation that is going to please everybody. But as things quite often are in politics, things generally never turn out as dramatic as people think they're going to be.

A borderless relationship with England with England outside the EU and Scotland inside simply isn't going to happen. It's not an option. I think it's important that it's made clear from the very start.

[CropleyWasGod]

But it's acceptable to deny FOM to the other European countries just as long as it's not to England? Let's not forget which of the European countries is becoming insular and seems to want to become isolated. I'll give you a clue, it's not ScotlandLost me.

Scotland in the EU would have FOM. England, outside the EU, wouldn't have FOM.
Therefore Scotland and England wouldn't have FOM with each other.

Or have I misunderstood?

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[CropleyWasGod]

No, I understand that. There wouldn't be freedom of movement between Scotland and England, just as there wouldn't be freedom of movement between England and other EU member states. However, no freedom of movement doesn't mean no migration back and forth, it just means that there will be border checks in place to check who is just visiting and who meets the criteria to live and work in Scotland/England.

We need to be realistic about this. There is no ideal situation that is going to please everybody. But as things quite often are in politics, things generally never turn out as dramatic as people think they're going to be.

A borderless relationship with England with England outside the EU and Scotland inside simply isn't going to happen. It's not an option. I think it's important that it's made clear from the very start.Your last sentence is key. Because, otherwise, this is exactly the kind of issue that will be subject to the rhetoric and dodgy headlines.

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[James310]

You are quite possibly correct. But then I am English myself and i work 4 days a week in England. So who knows?

You can be anyone you want on an anonymous Internet forum. Strange outlook to have if you are English but each to their own.

[G B Young]

Her deal is deliberately bad. She was a hard brexiteer the whole damn time. Yet people still believe she was a soft remainer, simply because she said that she was. Because you know.... Theresa May is known for her honesty and transparency, apparently.

So, as Home Secretary, rather than simply state she supported Brexit from the off, she publicly nailed her colours to the Remain campaign (including a speech to her party conference in favour of staying in the EU), but all the while secretly supporting a Yes vote which might give her an outside chance of becoming Prime Minister and therefore put her in a position to front up the thankless task of trying to secure an exit deal.

Yep, that sounds like the only logical conclusion to me :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

You can be anyone you want on an anonymous Internet forum. Strange outlook to have if you are English but each to their own.Not sure if it is that strange. There was a stat during the Indy debate that suggested 30% of English people living in Scotland would vote for independence.

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[weecounty hibby]

Lost me.

Scotland in the EU would have FOM. England, outside the EU, wouldn't have FOM.
Therefore Scotland and England wouldn't have FOM with each other.

Or have I misunderstood?

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Perhaps I misunderstood. It looked to me like you were saying that it would be bad if we had no FOM to England. But not fussed by the fact that we will have no FOM to the other 27 states due to Brexit

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It looked to me like you were saying that it would be bad if we had no FOM to England. But not fussed by the fact that we will have no FOM to the other 27 states due to BrexitYou did. No worries.

Blame the (2nd time tonight I've said it) clusterfork.


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[James310]

Not sure if it is that strange. There was a stat during the Indy debate that suggested 30% of English people living in Scotland would vote for independence.

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Nothing wrong with wanting independence and being English, but the post pointed at a problem with England and the English.

[Fife-Hibee]

So, as Home Secretary, rather than simply state she supported Brexit from the off, she publicly nailed her colours to the Remain campaign (including a speech to her party conference in favour of staying in the EU), but all the while secretly supporting a Yes vote which might give her an outside chance of becoming Prime Minister and therefore put her in a position to front up the thankless task of trying to secure an exit deal.

Yep, that sounds like the only logical conclusion to me :wink:

If she had came out as a hard brexiteer while still Home Secretary, she would never had gotten the support she needed to become Prime Minister. Her eyes were on the prize and she was prepared to say whatever she needed to say in order to obtain it. Being soft on the EU was the best position she could take in order to gain support from tory brexiteers and tory remainers in her party. She was never quite in, but never quite out either because that was her way into Number 10. She never really spoke out in full support of the EU with any real degree of enthusiasm. But then again, listening to Theresa May say anything, is like listening to a dead souless corpse with zero sense of emotion.

Securing a good deal wasn't a thankless task, it was an opportunity that she made thankless. She spent far more time pandering to her tory collegues in Number 10 than she did looking for a sensible compromise at Brussels.

As I say, it was entirely intentional.

[Fife-Hibee]

You can be anyone you want on an anonymous Internet forum. Strange outlook to have if you are English but each to their own.

Why is it a strange outlook? Why should a persons political believes be determined purely by their national identity? Whether a person is English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Polish, Romainian etc should be uttely irrelevant. They want what is best for the country that they reside in.

[James310]

Why is it a strange outlook? Why should a persons political believes be determined purely by their national identity? Whether a person is English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Polish, Romainian etc should be uttely irrelevant. They want what is best for the country that they reside in.

It suggested more than politcial beliefs, it suggested a problem with a nation and its people.

Must have picked it up wrong though so my bad.

[CropleyWasGod]

It suggested more than politcial beliefs, it suggested a problem with a nation and its people.

Must have picked it up wrong though so my bad.You could have asked him yourself, but he's off building the wall. [emoji16]

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[Fife-Hibee]

It suggested more than politcial beliefs, it suggested a problem with a nation and its people.

Must have picked it up wrong though so my bad.

Taking issue with another countries political beliefs when it impacts the country you reside in, is political?

[grunt]

It suggested more than politcial beliefs, it suggested a problem with a nation and its people.

Must have picked it up wrong though so my bad.

What I was trying to describe was my disappointment with the behaviour and beliefs of many (the majority of those who voted) of the citizens of the country I was born in, as evidenced by the EU referendum result and the subsequent little englander attitudes which have been demonstrated. Those beliefs do not represent the country I was born in, and I don't want to be a part of a country that acts that way. Of course I recognise that not everyone in England feels that way, but it seems to be the majority. And crucially, it is the beliefs and behaviours of those in government.


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[Bristolhibby]

No, I understand that. There wouldn't be freedom of movement between Scotland and England, just as there wouldn't be freedom of movement between England and other EU member states. However, no freedom of movement doesn't mean no migration back and forth, it just means that there will be border checks in place to check who is just visiting and who meets the criteria to live and work in Scotland/England.

We need to be realistic about this. There is no ideal situation that is going to please everybody. But as things quite often are in politics, things generally never turn out as dramatic as people think they're going to be.

A borderless relationship with England with England outside the EU and Scotland inside simply isn't going to happen. It's not an option. I think it's important that it's made clear from the very start.

What like what isn’t going to happen on the Island of Ireland.

What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

I put the idea out there to be challenged and was met with knee jerk reactions. The way I see it, if somebody says something that is so outrageously wrong, then it would be rather easy to debunk using factual information, as opposed to petty emotional outbursts. But that's just my perspective.

I challenged you a while back but you chose to ignore it.

[Fife-Hibee]

What like what isn’t going to happen on the Island of Ireland.

What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

J

I don't see Ireland remaining completely borderless. There is going to need to be something in place, they're just trying to put the issue back for as long as possible, because they all know that it's imminent.

What's good for England is good for the Scots? :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

I challenged you a while back but you chose to ignore it.

I responded to you. You used yourself as an example and I was very clear that I was not referring to every senior in existence. At no point did I suggest that all seniors are the same.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The auld dudes are feeling maligned, the young dudes should be more considerate.

I'm stuck in the middle.

[Callum_62]

The auld dudes are feeling maligned, the young dudes should be more considerate.

I'm stuck in the middle.

Does that make you middle ages? :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

Scotland has plenty of talents of it's own and nobody is talking about removing England completely from the equation. That's the sort of over the top rhetoric we got in 2014 with talks of family and friends being blocked off from each other for all eternity. People will continue to migrate back and forth between Scotland and England. It's just that it won't be borderless. We're not rebuilding Hadrians wall. Trade and migration will continue, as it will be in the interests of England and Scotland.

Of course it will.

Everything will remain the same :greengrin

Typical brigadoon snp mentality or at least the one it wishes to portray.

Nothing would ever be the same again within the four nations of the United Kingdom for we would become a foreign nation of our island parts.

Please refrain from playing the pied piper and trying to fool folk. Tell them the abject truth of separatism and some might respect you for it.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Does that make you middle ages? :greengrin

Naw, I'm far too young for that 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Well, here is an older person that voted remain, retired early and has no children to worry about.

I voted remain for the best future for our country.

I retired early to give someone else a chance to work.

I didn't have children because the world is fu ck Ed.

How do I fit in with your blinkered view?


I responded to you. You used yourself as an example and I was very clear that I was not referring to every senior in existence. At no point did I suggest that all seniors are the same.

All you said was about not all older people voting leave, but your original post also claimed it was to spite younger folks, I have done what I can for future generations by freeing up a job, and having no children I will not be drain on them in old age and I will die all alone and not be found for several months.

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course it will.

Everything will remain the same :greengrin

Typical brigadoon snp mentality or at least the one it wishes to portray.

Nothing would ever be the same again within the four nations of the United Kingdom for we would become a foreign nation of our island parts.

Please refrain from playing the pied piper and trying to fool folk. Tell them the abject truth of separatism and some might respect you for it.

I'm loving your logic,
we would become a foreign nation of our island parts shouldn't that be the other 3 nations are the ones that would become "foreign" to us?

As for the emotional language of separatism, you forget that those that advocate a release from the perceived dependency on Westminster are not separatist but are patriots.

Oh aye, and ye forgot yer sign-off....

Mon the pointless Scottish Labour :wink:

[weecounty hibby]

Of course it will.

Everything will remain the same :greengrin

Typical brigadoon snp mentality or at least the one it wishes to portray.

Nothing would ever be the same again within the four nations of the United Kingdom for we would become a foreign nation of our island parts.

Please refrain from playing the pied piper and trying to fool folk. Tell them the abject truth of separatism and some might respect you for it.

What about you telling the truth? You even changed your user name and got rid of the daft " 'mon Scottish Labour" signature that you used to have. You say you have no interest in the SNP but you mention them in every single post. You also talk about respect, what about going back and answering the direct questions you got asked in thread after thread after thread answering with bland nonsense slogans instead.

[ronaldo7]

Thanks. I checked out my local council website.

It helpfully says that you can apply two weeks in advance and that your card can take three weeks to arrive.

Typical East Lothian, already cheated out of a week and I’ve not even applied yet 😄

I applied 2 weeks early, and got it through within about 4 days. It was activated and ready to use...Result.

[ronaldo7]

This is exactly what you and the snp are all about. Becoming just another little country being ruled by the big boys within the EU. Give up on Trident, our armed forces and every part of sovereignty among virtually every other aspect of vital governance. Independence? I would deem it to be asking to be cuckolded in the political sense.

I also would add that you and some other snp followers are sinisterly using the tories as a metaphor against other groups of voters and/or folks within the UK, at least it certainly appears that way.

I pray the snp cuckolds never get their way.

Alternatively, you could go into coalitions with them all over Scotland as Labour has. Or even just brazenly fund them eh. Better together alive and kicking.

https://t.co/XSJY4zLa4x

Any idea what Labour's position on Brexit is this week end?

[G B Young]

If she had came out as a hard brexiteer while still Home Secretary, she would never had gotten the support she needed to become Prime Minister. Her eyes were on the prize and she was prepared to say whatever she needed to say in order to obtain it. Being soft on the EU was the best position she could take in order to gain support from tory brexiteers and tory remainers in her party. She was never quite in, but never quite out either because that was her way into Number 10. She never really spoke out in full support of the EU with any real degree of enthusiasm. But then again, listening to Theresa May say anything, is like listening to a dead souless corpse with zero sense of emotion.

Securing a good deal wasn't a thankless task, it was an opportunity that she made thankless. She spent far more time pandering to her tory collegues in Number 10 than she did looking for a sensible compromise at Brussels.

As I say, it was entirely intentional.

Undisguised hard Brexiteer Boris was the early favourite to succeed Cameron post-Brexit until Gove undermined him so I'm not sure why May would have had to pretend to be a remainer to have a chance of the leadership (or was Gove in on her hustle??). Her whole dastardly plot would also have depended entirely on the leave vote holding sway and thus prompting Cameron to resign - a risky double assumption given that a remain vote was the odds on favourite.

Let's just say I'm a little dubious that a strategy so full of ifs and buts could have been 'entirely intentional'.

[matty_f]

Not sure if it is that strange. There was a stat during the Indy debate that suggested 30% of English people living in Scotland would vote for independence.

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My mum is English, and she supported independence.

[Callum_62]

Any update on how immigrants get there tax back?


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[G B Young]

Alternatively, you could go into coalitions with them all over Scotland as Labour has. Or even just brazenly fund them eh. Better together alive and kicking.

https://t.co/XSJY4zLa4x

Any idea what Labour's position on Brexit is this week end?

No more idea than I have had throughout the whole saga (as Corbyn seems to jump from one standpoint to another depending on which way the wind appears to be blowing), though I see John McDonnell is today ruling out any prospect of a coalition with the SNP come the next election, claiming he thinks Labour will win it with a handsome majority. Perish the thought...though were such a thing ever to occur it would see me switch my stance on independence to yes!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Please refrain from playing the pied piper and trying to fool folk. Tell them the abject truth of separatism and some might respect you for it.




mon scottish labour, the scottish tories bagman

[cabbageandribs1875]

another resigns
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249


Science and universities minister Sam Gyimah quit after Mrs May said the UK was pulling out of Galileo.
The UK wanted to stay part of it but the EU said it would be banned from extra-secure elements of the project.
Mr Gyimah said it was a foretaste of the "brutal negotiations" to come.



can't be many tories left in westminster now shirly

[jonty]

another resigns
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249


Science and universities minister Sam Gyimah quit after Mrs May said the UK was pulling out of Galileo.
The UK wanted to stay part of it but the EU said it would be banned from extra-secure elements of the project.
Mr Gyimah said it was a foretaste of the "brutal negotiations" to come.



can't be many tories left in westminster now shirly
Thunderbolt and lightening, very very frightening me.

[RyeSloan]

another resigns
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249


Science and universities minister Sam Gyimah quit after Mrs May said the UK was pulling out of Galileo.
The UK wanted to stay part of it but the EU said it would be banned from extra-secure elements of the project.
Mr Gyimah said it was a foretaste of the "brutal negotiations" to come.



can't be many tories left in westminster now shirly

It’s interesting language that he uses:

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", Mr Gyimah said in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning.

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

Which may make some wonder why you want to be a part of such a group in the first place....

[Smartie]

Nothing wrong with wanting independence and being English, but the post pointed at a problem with England and the English.

I'm Scottish and have lived in Scotland all my life.

I believe that England should be independent of the rest of the U.K. and happily pursue it's own path without having to worry about issues such as the Irish border and what Scots think and want.

I tend not to have a problem with English people of any political persuasion, whilst I disagree with their isolationist right wing element I respect their right to run their country as they wish.

I have more of "a problem" with the Scottish majority who continue to want to be dictated to and have their futures chosen for them by this very different group of people.

Is this so unusual?

[JeMeSouviens]

It’s interesting language that he uses:

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", Mr Gyimah said in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning.

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

Which may make some wonder why you want to be a part of such a group in the first place....

Sorry, but this is rubbish. The UK is the former member wanting special access to facilities of the club from the outside. Of course that’s going to be on terms set by the rest of the members.

[Future17]

It’s interesting language that he uses:

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", Mr Gyimah said in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning.

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

Which may make some wonder why you want to be a part of such a group in the first place....

Does it really though?

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry, but this is rubbish. The UK is the former member wanting special access to facilities of the club from the outside. Of course that’s going to be on terms set by the rest of the members.

:agree: It's the gym membership story in a nutshell.