Brexit - what will happen next

[Hibrandenburg]

Dear dog! This has been doing the rounds on my Facebook feed and people are lapping it up. Where do you start?


What if............what if in 1939 a referendum were held as to whether we should surrender to Nazi Germany rather than fight to liberate Europe?

What if a British PM had said that in the Reich we would be 4300 shillings better off per head?

What if the PM had said that in exchange for surrendering the right to govern ourselves we could work anywhere in the Reich, perhaps making Panzers for deployment in the Eastern Front?

What if the PM had said that we could travel anywhere within the Reich - no passports, cheap holidays in occupied sunny south of France and Fascist Italy, rather than Blackpool or Bournemouth?

What if the PM had told us that Adolf Hitler would provide us with a nice cheap German car - the people's car - rather than having a British marque? That instead of pie and mash for dinner we could have more exotic foreign food and all it would cost was our freedom?

What if he said that hundreds of years of self-government was worth trading in for the chance to abolish exchange rates and borders within the Reich, and that we could eventually all trade using the Reichsmark instead of the pound?

What if the PM said we would all be worse off for a generation if we did not join the Reich, as rationing would be introduced and last until 1954, and that we would have to borrow money under the Marshall Plan, a loan that would not be paid off until 2006?
What would the people have said? The generation of the early 20th century? How would they have reacted?

This is why we voted for Brexit. Because No single generation has the right to give away the independence that their forefathers fought and died for.....

Because this is about more than economics.....

[Bristolhibby]

Dear dog! This has been doing the rounds on my Facebook feed and people are lapping it up. Where do you start?


What if............what if in 1939 a referendum were held as to whether we should surrender to Nazi Germany rather than fight to liberate Europe?

What if a British PM had said that in the Reich we would be 4300 shillings better off per head?

What if the PM had said that in exchange for surrendering the right to govern ourselves we could work anywhere in the Reich, perhaps making Panzers for deployment in the Eastern Front?

What if the PM had said that we could travel anywhere within the Reich - no passports, cheap holidays in occupied sunny south of France and Fascist Italy, rather than Blackpool or Bournemouth?

What if the PM had told us that Adolf Hitler would provide us with a nice cheap German car - the people's car - rather than having a British marque? That instead of pie and mash for dinner we could have more exotic foreign food and all it would cost was our freedom?

What if he said that hundreds of years of self-government was worth trading in for the chance to abolish exchange rates and borders within the Reich, and that we could eventually all trade using the Reichsmark instead of the pound?

What if the PM said we would all be worse off for a generation if we did not join the Reich, as rationing would be introduced and last until 1954, and that we would have to borrow money under the Marshall Plan, a loan that would not be paid off until 2006?
What would the people have said? The generation of the early 20th century? How would they have reacted?

This is why we voted for Brexit. Because No single generation has the right to give away the independence that their forefathers fought and died for.....

Because this is about more than economics.....

Jesus, I don’t even know where to begin. That analogy is so off I’m not even sure it makes sense as a parody.

J

[Chic Murray]

On the basis of two victories against small countries, they are going to make Mark Lawrenson Foreign Secretary and declare war on France. The first objective being to win back Calais.

[One Day Soon]

Dear dog! This has been doing the rounds on my Facebook feed and people are lapping it up. Where do you start?


What if............what if in 1939 a referendum were held as to whether we should surrender to Nazi Germany rather than fight to liberate Europe?

What if a British PM had said that in the Reich we would be 4300 shillings better off per head?

What if the PM had said that in exchange for surrendering the right to govern ourselves we could work anywhere in the Reich, perhaps making Panzers for deployment in the Eastern Front?

What if the PM had said that we could travel anywhere within the Reich - no passports, cheap holidays in occupied sunny south of France and Fascist Italy, rather than Blackpool or Bournemouth?

What if the PM had told us that Adolf Hitler would provide us with a nice cheap German car - the people's car - rather than having a British marque? That instead of pie and mash for dinner we could have more exotic foreign food and all it would cost was our freedom?

What if he said that hundreds of years of self-government was worth trading in for the chance to abolish exchange rates and borders within the Reich, and that we could eventually all trade using the Reichsmark instead of the pound?

What if the PM said we would all be worse off for a generation if we did not join the Reich, as rationing would be introduced and last until 1954, and that we would have to borrow money under the Marshall Plan, a loan that would not be paid off until 2006?
What would the people have said? The generation of the early 20th century? How would they have reacted?

This is why we voted for Brexit. Because No single generation has the right to give away the independence that their forefathers fought and died for.....

Because this is about more than economics.....


Reading that it is hard not to come to the conclusion that abolishing both Facebook and people might be the best plan.

You know, as a species we are peculiarly both genius and spectacularly dumb. I thought we would end up colonising space and developing into super-advanced immortal beings, transcending death and disease and living well beyond, or completely independently of, our corporeal bodies.

Now I'm beginning to wonder whether instead we might just colonise space, exporting stupidity and self-interest on an intergalactic scale, before accidentally wiping ourselves out in an argument over a flag or some words.

[JeMeSouviens]

Dear dog! This has been doing the rounds on my Facebook feed and people are lapping it up. Where do you start?


What if............what if in 1939 a referendum were held as to whether we should surrender to Nazi Germany rather than fight to liberate Europe?

What if a British PM had said that in the Reich we would be 4300 shillings better off per head?

What if the PM had said that in exchange for surrendering the right to govern ourselves we could work anywhere in the Reich, perhaps making Panzers for deployment in the Eastern Front?

What if the PM had said that we could travel anywhere within the Reich - no passports, cheap holidays in occupied sunny south of France and Fascist Italy, rather than Blackpool or Bournemouth?

What if the PM had told us that Adolf Hitler would provide us with a nice cheap German car - the people's car - rather than having a British marque? That instead of pie and mash for dinner we could have more exotic foreign food and all it would cost was our freedom?

What if he said that hundreds of years of self-government was worth trading in for the chance to abolish exchange rates and borders within the Reich, and that we could eventually all trade using the Reichsmark instead of the pound?

What if the PM said we would all be worse off for a generation if we did not join the Reich, as rationing would be introduced and last until 1954, and that we would have to borrow money under the Marshall Plan, a loan that would not be paid off until 2006?
What would the people have said? The generation of the early 20th century? How would they have reacted?

This is why we voted for Brexit. Because No single generation has the right to give away the independence that their forefathers fought and died for.....

Because this is about more than economics.....


This is one of those times when universal suffrage doesn't seem like such a hot idea.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was tempted to put this in "Good News Stories" :wink:

http://www.businessinsider.com/liam-fox-international-trade-theresa-may-customs-softest-possible-brexit-2018-7?r=UK&IR=T

[One Day Soon]

I was tempted to put this in "Good News Stories" :wink:

http://www.businessinsider.com/liam-fox-international-trade-theresa-may-customs-softest-possible-brexit-2018-7?r=UK&IR=T

Regardless of where you stand on Brexit, Indy, party politics or pretty much anything else, getting that tool out of office would be a win all round.

[JeMeSouviens]

After Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover. Business starting to throw its weight around (not before time imo).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44719656

[Lendo]

Dear dog! This has been doing the rounds on my Facebook feed and people are lapping it up. Where do you start?


What if............what if in 1939 a referendum were held as to whether we should surrender to Nazi Germany rather than fight to liberate Europe?

What if a British PM had said that in the Reich we would be 4300 shillings better off per head?

What if the PM had said that in exchange for surrendering the right to govern ourselves we could work anywhere in the Reich, perhaps making Panzers for deployment in the Eastern Front?

What if the PM had said that we could travel anywhere within the Reich - no passports, cheap holidays in occupied sunny south of France and Fascist Italy, rather than Blackpool or Bournemouth?

What if the PM had told us that Adolf Hitler would provide us with a nice cheap German car - the people's car - rather than having a British marque? That instead of pie and mash for dinner we could have more exotic foreign food and all it would cost was our freedom?

What if he said that hundreds of years of self-government was worth trading in for the chance to abolish exchange rates and borders within the Reich, and that we could eventually all trade using the Reichsmark instead of the pound?

What if the PM said we would all be worse off for a generation if we did not join the Reich, as rationing would be introduced and last until 1954, and that we would have to borrow money under the Marshall Plan, a loan that would not be paid off until 2006?
What would the people have said? The generation of the early 20th century? How would they have reacted?

This is why we voted for Brexit. Because No single generation has the right to give away the independence that their forefathers fought and died for.....

Because this is about more than economics.....

This might be one of the most stupid things ever written. I have no idea where to start with just how awful this analogy is. Time for Facebook to be consigned to the history books.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

After Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover. Business starting to throw its weight around (not before time imo).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44719656

Yeah there has been a notable ramping up. I think businesses were generally a bit nervous about getting involved in anything too 'political' and so gave the politicians the benefit of the doubt.

But obviously people are getting nervous, and the complete lack of confidence that has been created by the UK govt farce is making businesses minds up to weigh in.

There will also be politicians doing their best to provoke and cajole orgs to weigh in on their side - the SG have been doing it for a while now, encouraging and coralling orgs and businesses to weigh in on their side.

[Bristolhibby]

I wish that Business would have been as vocal as this in 2016.

Problem is there are some businesses who are happy to exit the EU like most media barons. They hold the mouthpiece of the U.K.

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I wish that Business would have been as vocal as this in 2016.

Problem is there are some businesses who are happy to exit the EU like most media barons. They hold the mouthpiece of the U.K.

J

It's an interesting lesson... I wonder if more will be more vocal in the future on political issues.

Still I'm not sure those that intervened publically in the Indy ref were universally applauded for it. I think the ST still doesn't speak to them!

[GlesgaeHibby]

Is today the day the Government collapses? May is in for a battering at Chequers. The fact that the final white paper was only issued to ministers yesterday shows how shambolic this whole Brexit fiasco has been.

[JeMeSouviens]

Lessons for Scotland from the last 12 months vis a vis the EU:

1. The integrity of the EU itself and its single market is paramount, above all else.
2. If you are a putative 3rd country (UK) you can have a trade deal but the EU will not fudge its rules even for short term financial gain if there is any risk of undermining the EU (see 1).
3. If you are a region within an EU member state (Catalunya) you can go and **** yourself as far as the EU is concerned. Not their problem.
4. If you are an EU member state (Ireland), no matter how small, the EU cannot do enough for you and will back you up to the hilt in any external dispute.

Food for thought.

[marinello59]

Yeah there has been a notable ramping up. I think businesses were generally a bit nervous about getting involved in anything too 'political' and so gave the politicians the benefit of the doubt.

But obviously people are getting nervous, and the complete lack of confidence that has been created by the UK govt farce is making businesses minds up to weigh in.

There will also be politicians doing their best to provoke and cajole orgs to weigh in on their side - the SG have been doing it for a while now, encouraging and coralling orgs and businesses to weigh in on their side.

So the SNP are asking business to speak up about the dangers of leaving a Union? I love how everybody has just swapped sides on this one. Project fear is now fair warning. :greengrin
It's a mess. I feel more contempt for May than I did for Thatcher and I never thought that would be possible. Weak and clueless.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So the SNP are asking business to speak up about the dangers of leaving a Union? I love how everybody has just swapped sides on this one. Project fear is now fair warning. :greengrin
It's a mess. I feel more contempt for May than I did for Thatcher and I never thought that would be possible. Weak and clueless.

Indeed they are, and have been. And the irony of that was not lost on many.. given how hard they tried to neutralise such dissent at Indy ref.

It may be a genie they struggle to get back in the bottle!

But, I would say leaving the EU with no substantial deal is almost certainly far more frightening to most orgs than the prospect of independence, with both Scotland and England as EU members as was proposed.

You are right about the similarities of both sides arguments in different circumstances. They will all just swap key messages come indyref2!

[Moulin Yarns]

Well the cabinet have agreed Brexit proposals tonight. Over to you Michel Barnier, kick it out.

[Slavers]

Well the cabinet have agreed Brexit proposals tonight. Over to you Michel Barnier, kick it out.

Why are you so keen for it to be kicked out?

[One Day Soon]

Well the cabinet have agreed Brexit proposals tonight. Over to you Michel Barnier, kick it out.

Not sure I'm following the logic here?

[Moulin Yarns]

Does anyone really think the UK government Brexit proposals agreed at checkers last night will be acceptable to the EU? I don't and that's why I expect it to be kicked back.

[Mibbes Aye]

Does anyone really think the UK government Brexit proposals agreed at checkers last night will be acceptable to the EU? I don't and that's why I expect it to be kicked back.

Been away with work and barely had a chance to keep up with this, while prioritising the World Cup :greengrin

My initial take is that the Chequers agreement is a ploy to flush out opposition from the Brexiteers, in the form of Cabinet resignations. I suspect that HMG, at least the civil servants at first and latterly the ministers, have realised that hard Brexit is catastrophic and soft Brexit is more or less impossible, so it's all about finding a way of presenting a package that doesn't involve much moving from where we are now, while portraying it as a hard-fought battle to secure the sovereignty of these British Isles (pass the sickbag).

We are on course to end up with the same regulatory framework we always had and less power to influence it. The French and Germans must be pissing themselves. It's the epitome of a foreign policy own goal. The EU may humour us, as it will lead to less disruption to the overall European ideal, but essentially it will be their pragmatic choice.

There's a great bit of dialogue in 'Yes Minister' or 'Yes Prime Minister' that very accurately sums up Britain's diplomacy with the continental nations. The day we held the referendum, we lost all that and found ourselves in a navel-gazing, petty and pointless stramash which threatens the prosperity of the whole nation, so that ideologues on the right and left can satisfy their pitiful indulgences about sovereignty or global capitalism.

[Moulin Yarns]

Been away with work and barely had a chance to keep up with this, while prioritising the World Cup :greengrin

My initial take is that the Chequers agreement is a ploy to flush out opposition from the Brexiteers, in the form of Cabinet resignations. I suspect that HMG, at least the civil servants at first and latterly the ministers, have realised that hard Brexit is catastrophic and soft Brexit is more or less impossible, so it's all about finding a way of presenting a package that doesn't involve much moving from where we are now, while portraying it as a hard-fought battle to secure the sovereignty of these British Isles (pass the sickbag).

We are on course to end up with the same regulatory framework we always had and less power to influence it. The French and Germans must be pissing themselves. It's the epitome of a foreign policy own goal. The EU may humour us, as it will lead to less disruption to the overall European ideal, but essentially it will be their pragmatic choice.

There's a great bit of dialogue in 'Yes Minister' or 'Yes Prime Minister' that very accurately sums up Britain's diplomacy with the continental nations. The day we held the referendum, we lost all that and found ourselves in a navel-gazing, petty and pointless stramash which threatens the prosperity of the whole nation, so that ideologues on the right and left can satisfy their pitiful indulgences about sovereignty or global capitalism.

****. I'm away for a lie down. Never thought I'd agree with you.

[Mibbes Aye]

****. I'm away for a lie down. Never thought I'd agree with you.

:faf:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Does anyone really think the UK government Brexit proposals agreed at checkers last night will be acceptable to the EU? I don't and that's why I expect it to be kicked back.

From what I've read, the proposals seem reasonable.

If the EU negotiating position is 'this is our view and we won't budge from it', then it's not really a negotiation is it? It would be an attempt to dictate terms.

I completely agree the EU should not, and would not agree to the more fantasies ideas of Brexit, but equally they have to a willing partner, and that means compromising on some areas. If they don't, then the UK should walk away imo.

Obviously that applies to the UK position too, and I'm surprisingly encouraged by the fact that the Brexit extremists seem to be the ones moaning loudest about this 'deal'.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Been away with work and barely had a chance to keep up with this, while prioritising the World Cup :greengrin

My initial take is that the Chequers agreement is a ploy to flush out opposition from the Brexiteers, in the form of Cabinet resignations. I suspect that HMG, at least the civil servants at first and latterly the ministers, have realised that hard Brexit is catastrophic and soft Brexit is more or less impossible, so it's all about finding a way of presenting a package that doesn't involve much moving from where we are now, while portraying it as a hard-fought battle to secure the sovereignty of these British Isles (pass the sickbag).

We are on course to end up with the same regulatory framework we always had and less power to influence it. The French and Germans must be pissing themselves. It's the epitome of a foreign policy own goal. The EU may humour us, as it will lead to less disruption to the overall European ideal, but essentially it will be their pragmatic choice.

There's a great bit of dialogue in 'Yes Minister' or 'Yes Prime Minister' that very accurately sums up Britain's diplomacy with the continental nations. The day we held the referendum, we lost all that and found ourselves in a navel-gazing, petty and pointless stramash which threatens the prosperity of the whole nation, so that ideologues on the right and left can satisfy their pitiful indulgences about sovereignty or global capitalism.

Don't agree with all of that, but I know the dialogue your referring to, and it's Brilliant! There's also another one that makes a funny but very un-pc list of European country's national characteristics, where he says something along the lines of Germany trying desperately hard to make amends and regain entry to the human race - it was the 70s I suppose 😁

[Chic Murray]

From what I've read, the proposals seem reasonable.

If the EU negotiating position is 'this is our view and we won't budge from it', then it's not really a negotiation is it? It would be an attempt to dictate terms.

I completely agree the EU should not, and would not agree to the more fantasies ideas of Brexit, but equally they have to a willing partner, and that means compromising on some areas. If they don't, then the UK should walk away imo.

Obviously that applies to the UK position too, and I'm surprisingly encouraged by the fact that the Brexit extremists seem to be the ones moaning loudest about this 'deal'.

Walk away to where?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Walk away to where?

Away from the negotiations, and out of the EU.

I'm not saying I want this, just that you can't seriously negotiate with someone who won't negotiate back.

But id prefer Brexit to be cancelled.

[Chic Murray]

Away from the negotiations, and out of the EU.

I'm not saying I want this, just that you can't seriously negotiate with someone who won't negotiate back.

But id prefer Brexit to be cancelled.

Fair does. Equally, you can't negotiate when the other side knows you have nowhere to go.

Im not using this as a yea, or nay answer, but the whole referendum was farcical, based on fag packet evidence. An informed debate, based on a semblance of evidence, rather than emotion, may have seen the UK better prepared for what came next.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Fair does. Equally, you can't negotiate when the other side knows you have nowhere to go.

Im not using this as a yea, or nay answer, but the whole referendum was farcical, based on fag packet evidence. An informed debate, based on a semblance of evidence, rather than emotion, may have seen the UK better prepared for what came next.

Exactly, which is why the UK walkig away might help to focus minds a touch - the EU won't concede much at the moment, because they don't really have to. Although the German coalition minister was this week break if cover, and got 'slapped down by the Commission for it - maybe the European view isn't as monolithic as it appears?

Agreed, it was a stupid debate far too open to corruption and jingoism.

[Mibbes Aye]

Don't agree with all of that, but I know the dialogue your referring to, and it's Brilliant! There's also another one that makes a funny but very un-pc list of European country's national characteristics, where he says something along the lines of Germany trying desperately hard to make amends and regain entry to the human race - it was the 70s I suppose 😁

'Yes Minister' and 'Yes Prime Minister' are some of the best-written TV ever. What's slightly scary is that the jokes still ring true today.

[Mibbes Aye]

Lessons for Scotland from the last 12 months vis a vis the EU:

1. The integrity of the EU itself and its single market is paramount, above all else.
2. If you are a putative 3rd country (UK) you can have a trade deal but the EU will not fudge its rules even for short term financial gain if there is any risk of undermining the EU (see 1).
3. If you are a region within an EU member state (Catalunya) you can go and **** yourself as far as the EU is concerned. Not their problem.
4. If you are an EU member state (Ireland), no matter how small, the EU cannot do enough for you and will back you up to the hilt in any external dispute.

Food for thought.

I think that's a reasonable summary.

I also think that people in the UK to a large degree fail to understand the commitment to the EU by France and Germany. It's almost become part of the political DNA. They started the EEC a long time before the UK joined and will continue it whatever the UK does.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

'Yes Minister' and 'Yes Prime Minister' are some of the best-written TV ever. What's slightly scary is that the jokes still ring true today.

Yeah, very perceptive.

Although it's maybe also a sad reflection on our politics that it hasn't progressed much since then!

[Hibs Class]

David Davis resigns... what happens next?

[cabbageandribs1875]

David Davis resigns... what happens next?


he's done the right thing(respect) imo, May has went for the soft brexit and i imagine brexiteers will be furious, no wonder ann widdecombe has ridiculed her :greengrin

[marinello59]

he's done the right thing(respect) imo, May has went for the soft brexit and i imagine brexiteers will be furious, no wonder ann widdecombe has ridiculed her :greengrin

I’m not so sure May will be PM for much longer. Just when you think she can’t make a bigger mess of things she does just that.

[weecounty hibby]

What a shambles. A referendum held with no plan at all for the future should it have been a yes vote. The main protagonists, Farage, Cameron, Johnson etc all scuttled off after as it was clearly unexpected and something they had bull****ted the country over all the way through with no plan to carry out a successful, well managed exit. The government are just making it up as they go along.

[Slavers]

The only plus side of going for the soft brexit option is that it had set a precedence for all future referendums, whereby the result of the referendum can largely be ignored.

If Scotland ever votes for independence then im sure all will be pleased when that referendum result gets ignored and we get a soft version of independence, where all big decisions for Scotland are decided by the UK government.

[Chic Murray]

The only plus side of going for the soft brexit option is that it had set a precedence for all future referendums, whereby the result of the referendum can largely be ignored.

If Scotland ever votes for independence then im sure all will be pleased when that referendum result gets ignored and we get a soft version of independence, where all big decisions for Scotland are decided by the UK government.

I don't want another Scottish referendum, but you're not comparing apples with apples.

It was put to the people with a clear statement of what would happen, and a timetable.

This could have happened with Brexit, if there had been any semblance of an opposition to scrutinise the referendum bill.

Classic Anglo Saxon "it'll be alright on the night" approach. Brits don't do planning well.

[Slavers]

I don't want another Scottish referendum, but you're not comparing apples with apples.

It was put to the people with a clear statement of what would happen, and a timetable.

This could have happened with Brexit, if there had been any semblance of an opposition to scrutinise the referendum bill.

Classic Anglo Saxon "it'll be alright on the night" approach. Brits don't do planning well.

The SNP didn't give the Scottish voter a clear plan either apart from it will be alright trust us... oil will trade at $133 a barrel.

[Bristolhibby]

The only plus side of going for the soft brexit option is that it had set a precedence for all future referendums, whereby the result of the referendum can largely be ignored.

If Scotland ever votes for independence then im sure all will be pleased when that referendum result gets ignored and we get a soft version of independence, where all big decisions for Scotland are decided by the UK government.

Indy vote was binding
Brexit was always advisory.

A point missed by many.

We don’t HAVE to Brexit.

J

[Chic Murray]

The SNP didn't give the Scottish voter a clear plan either apart from it will be alright trust us... oil will trade at $133 a barrel.

If that's the level you want to discuss it on, don't bother.

There was an extensive white paper and Bill after that, debated by the parliament.

What happened at Westminster wasn't a patch on that.

[Bristolhibby]

Boris Johnston has just resigned.

Things warming up now!

J

[grunt]

The SNP didn't give the Scottish voter a clear plan either apart from it will be alright trust us... oil will trade at $133 a barrel.

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/11/9348/0

[cabbageandribs1875]

I’m not so sure May will be PM for much longer. Just when you think she can’t make a bigger mess of things she does just that.



ditto



you can get odds on those replacing her

9/2 Sajid Javid
5/1 Michael Gove
13/2 Jacob Rees-Mogg
10/1 Jeremy Hunt
10/1 Boris Johnson
12/1 Dominic Raab
16/1 Andrea Leadsom

or even

28/1 Ruth Davidson


personally, i'd love Ruth Davidson to end up as PM....that would be fun

[Colr]

ditto



you can get odds on those replacing her

9/2 Sajid Javid
5/1 Michael Gove
13/2 Jacob Rees-Mogg
10/1 Jeremy Hunt
10/1 Boris Johnson
12/1 Dominic Raab
16/1 Andrea Leadsom

or even

28/1 Ruth Davidson

Can you be party leader without a seat in the Commons? Maybe they could get Ruth D into the lords.

I’m not surprised at the top two. If its down to MPs boiled egg head will get it. If there’s low votes for the brexit candidate it might spike their guns a bit but if its close the same old crap will rumble on. Maybe they need to split. Maybe Labour needs to split. Maybe we need PR to accommodate the range of perspecyives that exist now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Can you be party leader without a seat in the Commons? Maybe they could get Ruth D into the lords.

I’m not surprised at the top two. If its down to MPs boiled egg head will get it. If there’s low votes for the brexit candidate it might spike their guns a bit but if its close the same old crap will rumble on. Maybe they need to split. Maybe Labour needs to split. Maybe we need PR to accommodate the range of perspecyives that exist now.



i was indeed thinking that after hearing that Boris is Offski, but i'm sure they would think of a way round it :greengrin


as for the 2nd part in bold, Corbyn needs to stop surrounding himself with that momentum group, stop loving-up to the Russians(and terrorist groups he supports)....he might even have a chance then, i wouldn't bet on either events happening though

[Peevemor]

Boris Johnston has just resigned.

Things warming up now!

J

Crikey!

[RyeSloan]

Boris Johnston has just resigned.

Things warming up now!

J

Who would have thought it was possible to make May look ever worse than she does already?

Then we get this ‘cabinet backed’ plan...followed 3 days later by key members of said cabinet resigning over the plan!

Genius.

[Colr]

i was indeed thinking that after hearing that Boris is Offski, but i'm sure they would think of a way round it :greengrin


as for the 2nd part in bold, Corbyn needs to stop surrounding himself with that momentum group, stop loving-up to the Russians(and terrorist groups he supports)....he might even have a chance then, i wouldn't bet on either events happening though

Corbyn had some good policies but he just doesn’t look like he can reach beyond his core vote.

[Pretty Boy]

An opposition worth it's salt would have the Government calling an election by the weekend and running on a no Brexit/2nd referendum platform.

As it is she'll just about hang on because all the pressure is internal.

[grunt]

Corbyn had some good policies but he just doesn’t look like he can reach beyond his core vote.

I would guess that his support for Brexit has alienated some of his potential voter base. It's crazy - somewhere around 50% of the England and Wales electorate (the remainers) have no party to vote for if a general election is called.

[Bristolhibby]

I would guess that his support for Brexit has alienated some of his potential voter base. It's crazy - somewhere around 50% of the England and Wales electorate (the remainers) have no party to vote for if a general election is called.

Conversely I would vote Labour is if want in a Tory/Lib Dem heartland, especially if Labour went on an anti Brexit ticket.

The thing to remember is Brexit was binary. Parliamentary elections have a number of candidates where a first past the post system is in place. All the other votes not for the winning MP go in the bin.

Would Labour be able to run on an anti Brexit ticket?

I’m not so sure.

J

[heretoday]

I would guess that his support for Brexit has alienated some of his potential voter base. It's crazy - somewhere around 50% of the England and Wales electorate (the remainers) have no party to vote for if a general election is called.

Labour ought to have McDonnell as leader. He's far cleverer and more articulate than Corbyn.

[IGRIGI]

Tricky for Labour as if they go full anti Brexit they risk alienating the North East of England.

[grunt]

Tricky for Labour as if they go full anti Brexit they risk alienating the North East of England.

If the people of Sunderland would rather lose the jobs from Nisan than cancel Brexit, then perhaps they need someone to explain the consequences of Brexit more clearly to them. We lack politicians who have the courage and strength of character to stand up and tell the electorate that what 52% of them voted for is a mistake. IMO.

[Benny Brazil]

Politics in this country is in a right bloody mess

[CropleyWasGod]

Tricky for Labour as if they go full anti Brexit they risk alienating the North East of England.

My take on the North East voting for Brexit was that, for the first time in generations, they had a vote that actually meant something. A bit like the Scots pre-Devolution, they were used to their vote being perceived to be worthless. So, when the chance came to have a say, their collective thought was "what's the Government saying? Whatever they're saying, we'll vote against it..."

That may not be the case in the event of a second referendum, now that the full economic impact is being seen....

[GlesgaeHibby]

Is today the day the Government collapses? May is in for a battering at Chequers. The fact that the final white paper was only issued to ministers yesterday shows how shambolic this whole Brexit fiasco has been.

Few days late with my prediction, but the wheels well and truly coming off now. May heading for a vote of no confidence. Ruth as a replacement would be glorious - never seen a politician get a free ride up here the way she does from the press. On the relatively few times she is pressed, she flaps big time.

[Moulin Yarns]

Vote of no confidence on the cards. Meeting of 48+tories just now. Source, Laura kuensburg.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's like a kidnap situation. If you don't agree to a hard Brexit one of us will resign every day until you are last woman standing.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's like a kidnap situation. If you don't agree to a hard Brexit one of us will resign every day until you are last woman standing.

Nobody can win here though, as there isn't enough support within Tory party/parliament for a hard Brexit. May's Chequers plan also won't be accepted by EU.

So what next? General Election? Another referendum?

This madness is all the Tory parties creation. Ian Blackford called it spot on, 2 years to prepare the 'deal' she wants and 2 days for it all to fall apart.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Government shambles. As PB said an opposition party would be right on this normally, but Labour are as inept as the Tories right now.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nobody can win here though, as there isn't enough support within Tory party/parliament for a hard Brexit. May's Chequers plan also won't be accepted by EU.

So what next? General Election? Another referendum?

This madness is all the Tory parties creation. Ian Blackford called it spot on, 2 years to prepare the 'deal' she wants and 2 days for it all to fall apart.

I think he stole that line from Cornyn, who used it about 30 minutes before in the same debate!

[GlesgaeHibby]

I think he stole that line from Cornyn, who used it about 30 minutes before in the same debate!

It's a good line, whoever it belongs to!

[weecounty hibby]

The SNP didn't give the Scottish voter a clear plan either apart from it will be alright trust us... oil will trade at $133 a barrel.

You won't agree with this but the Scottish government white paper on independence, errors and all, makes the leave/Tory govt look like the Trumpton town council. No plans, no idea and nonsense rhetoric, £350m per week to the NHS anyone, totally embarrassing that folk in this country were taken in by this bunch of twats who still believe that there is an empire all falling over themselves to trade with the mother country and that the centre of the world is England.

[Just Alf]

It's clear the "Hard Brexiteers" are pushing their own agenda on this. The UK as a whole voted 52% for, 48% against so to my mind the combined population voted for a "Soft Brexit".

That's not taking into account that the leave side had illegal extra spending on the campaign... I wonder what the split would have been without that extra push from the leave side?



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

It's clear the "Hard Brexiteers" are pushing their own agenda on this. The UK as a whole voted 52% for, 48% against so to my mind the combined population voted for a "Soft Brexit".

That's not taking into account that the leave side had illegal extra spending on the campaign... I wonder what the split would have been without that extra push from the leave side?



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Well who knows really as the vote didn’t clarifying what Brexit was in the question that was asked.

However I honestly think that in general the vote should be considered at its simplest of terms...to leave the EU and therefore by implication most of its rules and restrictions.

So to some degree I see the hard Brexit point. That’s not to say I see it as correct but just as valid a position as the softies and even more valid than those who want to cancel or abandon as very clearly that wasn’t the decision of the vote.

It is however hilarious how pathetic all sides have been in the negotiations so far and the Tories most so. May has been waaay out of her depth the moment she took the job and is almost unbelievably incapable of managing any situation no matter one this grand!

Finally Brexit has woken up and we should see some fun and games now. I’m sure all sides think it’s still all to play for..[emoji1]

[grunt]

However I honestly think that in general the vote should be considered at its simplest of terms...to leave the EU and therefore by implication most of its rules and restrictions.

I can see how you can suggest that taking Brexit at its simplest makes sense.
But how then do you decide to just leave "most" of its rules?

[lord bunberry]

We should all be slightly worried tonight. What is unfolding before us has nothing to do with what’s good for any of us. It’s about what’s politically acceptable to a select few with a vested interest.

[grunt]

We should all be slightly worried tonight. What is unfolding before us has nothing to do with what’s good for any of us. It’s about what’s politically acceptable to a select few with a vested interest.
This is so very true.

Under every scenario of the Government's own impact assessments, the country will be worse off after Brexit.
The only question is how much worse off will we be?

Which reminds me - Davis should have been sacked after he lied to the parliament and to the country over the impact assessments.
It's appalling that he neither resigned nor was sacked over that episode.

[Chic Murray]

1922 committee forces a vote of no confidence in May, she resigns, cripes it's Boris in number 10!

[grunt]

1922 committee forces a vote of no confidence in May, she resigns, cripes it's Boris in number 10!He has to win the leadership election first. And she has to lose any confidence vote. Is it happening - no sign as yet?

[CropleyWasGod]

He has to win the leadership election first. And she has to lose any confidence vote. Is it happening - no sign as yet?BBC reporting that she left the 1922 Committee to loud applause.

I saw a graphic earlier today that suggested that BJ would lose a head-to-head contest with any of the main candidates. There isn't the support for him in the party.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

Some minister I’ve never heard of Chris Green, resigns.

J

[RyeSloan]

I can see how you can suggest that taking Brexit at its simplest makes sense.
But how then do you decide to just leave "most" of its rules?

By faffing about for two years? 🤪

[danhibees1875]

Tricky for Labour as if they go full anti Brexit they risk alienating the North East of England.

What if they run on a second referendum ticket?

One that is legally binding and is "leave in 2019, regardless of deal" or "remain"

Those who pushed hard for Brexit wouldn't be alianated then, it'd be there chance to finally force through what they initially wanted - assuming they still have a majority.

We can then just remain, having just elected a new government, and stop voting on things for a wee while.

[Pretty Boy]

I hope David Cameron feels guilty as sin right now. He caused this with his weakness, his panic about UKIP and gambling the countries future on a party dispute. From the other side the whole thing was about getting Gove or Johnson into number 10 from the outset. They were terrified when they realised they had won as they never really thought they would.

I've really no idea where we go from here. The only opposition to Brexit is from minority parties, a few erseholes who will be sheltered from the worst effects are going to force through a disastrous hard Brexit. Crazy.

[grunt]

I hope David Cameron feels guilty as sin right now. I don't know how he can live with himself.

[CapitalGreen]

I think he stole that line from Cornyn, who used it about 30 minutes before in the same debate!

I saw that, however in his defence, Blackford also tweeted it before the debate had started.

[Haymaker]

I don't know how he can live with himself.

I'm sure the large amount of money he makes giving speeches at universities over here helps him sleep at night.

He'll be fine.

[matty_f]

It's a complete shambles, the Tories are self-serving ********s and the whole thing came about from Cameron trying to appease some vocal and influential Tories and stop them defecting to UKIP. He gambled, it backfired, and we're all facing the consequences - even now we're at the mercy of some Etonian pricks' game playing to meet their own ends.

Corbyn had the opportunity to stick it to the Tories but his pro-Brexit stance has ****ed that up for them.

For a lot of folk, there are very few areas to notably differentiate between the parties, and with the leader of the opposition going along with the Brexit shambles it leaves folk with nowhere to go.

[Just Alf]

I see 2 Tory "vice chairs" have also resigned, I think it's quite telling that almost every quote mentions the the deal is bad for the party.... they do also mention "country" but not quite as much that I've read across the various news outlets.



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[cabbageandribs1875]

Sajid Javid 7/2 fav for next PM




tony blair 150/1

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I saw that, however in his defence, Blackford also tweeted it before the debate had started.

So maybe corbyn copied him then! It is a very good line, whoever came up with it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sajid Javid 7/2 fav for next PM




tony blair 150/1


The whole thing is a shameful farce, but I can't help but feel that May is actually stronger now, that she has faced them down and called their bluff about a leadership election.

It seems, as someone pointed out above, that there is no majority in parliament for a 'hard Brexit and so their only way of getting that is to force a GE and hope their vision wins a mandate, which would be hugely risky.

Also, the mood music coming from EU leaders seems to be softening a tad too- maybe May will come out of all this latest round of shenanigans stronger to deliver a fairly soft Brexit?

[Sylar]

Absolute scenes in Westminster today.

Raab stands up to deliver his speech on the White Paper. But nobody has had a chance to read it in advance! Bercow stops the session to allow physical copies to be brought in and tossed to MPs.

The hardened Brexiters won't be voting for it based on the quick skim I've given it.

[ronaldo7]

Absolute scenes in Westminster today.

Raab stands up to deliver his speech on the White Paper. But nobody has had a chance to read it in advance! Bercow stops the session to allow physical copies to be brought in and tossed to MPs.

The hardened Brexiters won't be voting for it based on the quick skim I've given it.

According to the labour front bench, the journalists were briefed, and given a copy earlier in the day.

Absolute shambles.

[marinello59]

Absolute scenes in Westminster today.

Raab stands up to deliver his speech on the White Paper. But nobody has had a chance to read it in advance! Bercow stops the session to allow physical copies to be brought in and tossed to MPs.

The hardened Brexiters won't be voting for it based on the quick skim I've given it.

May is obviously gambling on the remainers in the other parties voting for this as the least worst option available. That isn’t going to happen in large enough numbers.

[McD]

May is obviously gambling on the remainers in the other parties voting for this as the least worst option available. That isn’t going to happen in large enough numbers.


Whatever side anyone of us come down on, this is a complete shambles

[grunt]

Lloyd's of Brussels


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-44815084/lloyd-s-of-london-chief-executive-inga-beale-criticises-brexit-white-paper

[IGRIGI]

For me it has to be either fully staying in or fully out.

There is no point to a halfway house where we have to live by EU rules taking away any advantages of a full Brexit while at the same time giving up on any say we had in Europe.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Thersea May or May not. Less than convincing on the Andrew Marr Show. Trying to cover too many bases and points of view.

[Moulin Yarns]

So. Brexiteers get 3 or 4 ammendments to Brexit bill. Let's see what happens next.

[steakbake]

So. Brexiteers get 3 or 4 ammendments to Brexit bill. Let's see what happens next.

A no-deal Brexit. Crash the economy in 36 weeks... ********s like Rees Mogg and the other disaster capitalists will make a fortune.

[Moulin Yarns]

Amendments scraped through last night, majority of only 3 in two cases.

Now this is breaking this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

[JeMeSouviens]

Amendments scraped through last night, majority of only 3 in two cases.

Now this is breaking this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

3 Lab rebels saw the government/erg home: Kate Hoey, Frank Field & Graham Stringer. Plus Libs Farron & Cable were posted missing!

[JeMeSouviens]

Anna Soubry going for the Rees-Moggies big time!

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1018919534089076736

Fair play to her.

[Slavers]

Anna Soubry going for the Rees-Moggies big time!

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1018919534089076736

Fair play to her.

She claim its ideologically driven, yet it was a democratic vote. The irony is she is the MP that called voters racist for voting to leave, I think it is her who is driven by ideology.

She will be voted out soon enough.

[Sylar]

She claim its ideologically driven, yet it was a democratic vote. The irony is she is the MP that called voters racist for voting to leave, I think it is her who is driven by ideology.

She will be voted out soon enough.

I'm no fan of Soubry for a number of reasons but she's quite right in those she's attacking.

The loudest proponents of this self-destructive path that has no map are those who have immense inherited wealth and don't give a **** how many people lose their jobs.

The past few months has highlighted just how utterly stupid this entire situation is. And now the legitimacy of the entire thing has come into question today. It might well have been a "democratic vote", but it was founded on lies, misinformation and absolutely zero basis of fact on the part of Leave. The recent negotiations and folly of the government rhetoric make that glaringly obvious.

[JeMeSouviens]

She claim its ideologically driven, yet it was a democratic vote. The irony is she is the MP that called voters racist for voting to leave, I think it is her who is driven by ideology.

She will be voted out soon enough.

Ideology and democracy are not necessarily incompatible. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's hounded out of her constituency tout de suite.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ideology and democracy are not necessarily incompatible. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's hounded out of her constituency tout de suite.

Talking of ideology.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tim-farron-brexit-gay-sex-christian-faith-liberal-democrats-vince-cable-sherborne-abbey-a8450536.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1531818336

Excuse the pun, but when one of the anti-Brexiteers does something like that, we are truly ****ed.

[JeMeSouviens]

Talking of ideology.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tim-farron-brexit-gay-sex-christian-faith-liberal-democrats-vince-cable-sherborne-abbey-a8450536.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1531818336

Excuse the pun, but when one of the anti-Brexiteers does something like that, we are truly ****ed.

Alastair Carmichael has taken responsibility and apologised (there's a first :wink:). He's Lib chief whip. Apparently he thought Labour were abstaining (never! :wink:) so gave Tim'n'Vince the night off.

[Future17]

Alastair Carmichael has taken responsibility and apologised (there's a first :wink:). He's Lib chief whip. Apparently he thought Labour were abstaining (never! :wink:) so gave Tim'n'Vince the night off.

Farcical really. Had they voted the majority would have been one...and then this comes out...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44867866

[JeMeSouviens]

Farcical really. Had they voted the majority would have been one...and then this comes out...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44867866

Wow! He voted "by accident". On 2 out of 6 votes. :confused: By amazing coincidence, the 2 really close ones. :rolleyes:

How stupid do they think people are?

[JeMeSouviens]

Can't help thinking there should be a special place in hell reserved for these muppets:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/who-are-labour-leavers-who-just-bailed-out-theresa-may

[G B Young]

Can't help thinking there should be a special place in hell reserved for these muppets:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/who-are-labour-leavers-who-just-bailed-out-theresa-may

Corbyn's fault surely if he doesn't carry enough clout to get his MPs to vote with the party. His own party are no more impressive than the Tories when it comes to clarifying what they're looking for out of Brexit.

Amid the whole mind-numbing saga, I do find the media narrative rather tiresome, with every Brexit-related vote win for the Government described as 'surviving the vote' or 'avoiding defeat'. Doesn't matter whether the majority is a handful or in the hundreds, a vote is either 'won' or 'lost'. Had they lost last night's trade vote you wouldn't describe them as 'not quite winning'. Fact is, the defeat on the medical vote was the first Brexit-related vote the Government has lost in 2018 so whether they're squeaking by or steamrollering their opponents they're still, slowly but surely, overcoming the many hurdles which stand between them and finally relieving us all of this seemingly endless saga. Next March can't come soon enough!

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn's fault surely if he doesn't carry enough clout to get his MPs to vote with the party. His own party are no more impressive than the Tories when it comes to clarifying what they're looking for out of Brexit.

Amid the whole mind-numbing saga, I do find the media narrative rather tiresome, with every Brexit-related vote win for the Government described as 'surviving the vote' or 'avoiding defeat'. Doesn't matter whether the majority is a handful or in the hundreds, a vote is either 'won' or 'lost'. Had they lost last night's trade vote you wouldn't describe them as 'not quite winning'. Fact is, the defeat on the medical vote was the first Brexit-related vote the Government has lost in 2018 so whether they're squeaking by or steamrollering their opponents they're still, slowly but surely, overcoming the many hurdles which stand between them and finally relieving us all of this seemingly endless saga. Next March can't come soon enough!

Labour are struggling with most of the same problems as the Tories for sure. Happily for them it's not their problem at the moment.

I find the media narrative rather pointless given the endless focus on the minutiae of Tory infighting and the almost complete disregard for how actual negotiations with the EU are (not) going.

May is nothing if not dogged and determined to hang on but at some point she is going to have to go back to her party/parliament/the electorate with a deal that's either:

- basically Canada but special status for NI

or

- basically Norway

Both deals that she is currently adamant she won't accept.

So how the **** that works is anyone's guess. The only other options are a complete collapse of Brexit meaning we remain after all or crashing out with the catastrophic Rees-Mogg fantasy of no deal at all. I would have up until recently thought either of those had **** all chance of happening but you've got to wonder ...

[RyeSloan]

Labour are struggling with most of the same problems as the Tories for sure. Happily for them it's not their problem at the moment.

I find the media narrative rather pointless given the endless focus on the minutiae of Tory infighting and the almost complete disregard for how actual negotiations with the EU are (not) going.

May is nothing if not dogged and determined to hang on but at some point she is going to have to go back to her party/parliament/the electorate with a deal that's either:

- basically Canada but special status for NI

or

- basically Norway

Both deals that she is currently adamant she won't accept.

So how the **** that works is anyone's guess. The only other options are a complete collapse of Brexit meaning we remain after all or crashing out with the catastrophic Rees-Mogg fantasy of no deal at all. I would have up until recently thought either of those had **** all chance of happening but you've got to wonder ...

There will be a deal of some sort...too many vested interests on both sides for that not to happen and surely both the U.K. Govt and the EU are capable of coming up with some workable agreements once they have all of their pathetic posturing out of the way.

That said I’m happily ignoring all the Brexit media chat as it’s mind numbing stuff and still think that no matter what is agreed it won’t have half the impact (neg or pos) that the soothsayers predict (who can forget Gideon’s prediction of a recession within two years of the vote for example!)

Quite whether the deal will have been worth any of the hassle is another question of course!

[JeMeSouviens]

There will be a deal of some sort...too many vested interests on both sides for that not to happen and surely both the U.K. Govt and the EU are capable of coming up with some workable agreements once they have all of their pathetic posturing out of the way.

That said I’m happily ignoring all the Brexit media chat as it’s mind numbing stuff and still think that no matter what is agreed it won’t have half the impact (neg or pos) that the soothsayers predict (who can forget Gideon’s prediction of a recession within two years of the vote for example!)

Quite whether the deal will have been worth any of the hassle is another question of course!

It's not even happened yet and ...

https://i.imgur.com/ihr2xNB.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

There will be a deal of some sort...too many vested interests on both sides for that not to happen and surely both the U.K. Govt and the EU are capable of coming up with some workable agreements once they have all of their pathetic posturing out of the way.

That said I’m happily ignoring all the Brexit media chat as it’s mind numbing stuff and still think that no matter what is agreed it won’t have half the impact (neg or pos) that the soothsayers predict (who can forget Gideon’s prediction of a recession within two years of the vote for example!)

Quite whether the deal will have been worth any of the hassle is another question of course!

btw, I don't actually think there has been much posturing? The EU side has laid out the options, Canada, Norway, etc and the UK side has argued vehemently with itself. I suppose at least they have at last come up with a starting position for the EU to reject.

[RyeSloan]

It's not even happened yet and ...

https://i.imgur.com/ihr2xNB.jpg

Lol..you trying to wind me up by making points using short term GDP rates as supposed evidence? [emoji23]

The two year or so period until the powers that be get their crap in order was always going to suppress some activity. Once the deal is done it’s just as likely to bounce back or indeed speed up (to catch up) so any mild short term ticking down of GDP growth caused by that (we do of course never know the definitive reasons why GDP as measured moves one way or the other) is no evidence at all that the overall concept is a bad one or a good one.

We also will never know what the growth rates would have been without the vote. I could quite easily suggest that they would have been broadly similar

Then I would say a comparison to EU growth is just daft anyway as there is really no such thing. That figure can only be some horrible amalgam of rates from huge economies that have for years led the world (Germany) and huge economies that have flatlined for a decade (Italy). The average growth rate of that lot doesn’t really tell you anything.

[Colr]

So, what should we stockpile, then?

[bigwheel]

So, what should we stockpile, then?


weapons...let's batter our way to independence :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

weapons...let's batter our way to independence :greengrin

Plenty of weapons sitting round Theresa’s cabinet table.

[CropleyWasGod]

So, what should we stockpile, then?Tories.

There's a lot of meat on them.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Lol..you trying to wind me up by making points using short term GDP rates as supposed evidence? [emoji23]

The two year or so period until the powers that be get their crap in order was always going to suppress some activity. Once the deal is done it’s just as likely to bounce back or indeed speed up (to catch up) so any mild short term ticking down of GDP growth caused by that (we do of course never know the definitive reasons why GDP as measured moves one way or the other) is no evidence at all that the overall concept is a bad one or a good one.

We also will never know what the growth rates would have been without the vote. I could quite easily suggest that they would have been broadly similar

Then I would say a comparison to EU growth is just daft anyway as there is really no such thing. That figure can only be some horrible amalgam of rates from huge economies that have for years led the world (Germany) and huge economies that have flatlined for a decade (Italy). The average growth rate of that lot doesn’t really tell you anything.

Congratulations. You could not have exemplified the classic brexiter response if you had tried. When presented with evidence that Brexit is having a disastrous impact on the economy, simply rubbish the numbers. Simples.

Brexiters never offer any credible counter evidence to support their views because of course there isn’t any.

Much easier to pour scorn on the opposition argument.

There’s a big part of me wanting the brexiters to complete their negotiations. Let them crash the economy and then watch as they seek to blame the remainers for the mess.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bigwheel]

Plenty of weapons sitting round Theresa’s cabinet table.

[emoji23][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

[RyeSloan]

Congratulations. You could not have exemplified the classic brexiter response if you had tried. When presented with evidence that Brexit is having a disastrous impact on the economy, simply rubbish the numbers. Simples.

Brexiters never offer any credible counter evidence to support their views because of course there isn’t any.

Much easier to pour scorn on the opposition argument.

There’s a big part of me wanting the brexiters to complete their negotiations. Let them crash the economy and then watch as they seek to blame the remainers for the mess.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry but that’s just bollox. I’ve been pretty clear for a long time that GDP is a nonsense figure and using short term GDP numbers to make an economic point is pretty much pointless. Nothing to do with Brexit at all.

To quote Simon Kuznets himself:

The welfare of a nation can scarcely be inferred from a measurement of national income as defined by the GDP.

You could also read this:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/04/30/the-trouble-with-gdp

GDP, Productivity and Inflation figures are all highly unreliable and the way they are banded about as fact and then used to support one position or another is just down right folly and you would be well served to understand their significant limitations and frequent revisions before sounding off.

[RyeSloan]

Plenty of weapons sitting round Theresa’s cabinet table.

Aha that’s a cracker [emoji736] [emoji23]

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry but that’s just bollox. I’ve been pretty clear for a long time that GDP is a nonsense figure and using short term GDP numbers to make an economic point is pretty much pointless. Nothing to do with Brexit at all.

To quote Simon Kuznets himself:

The welfare of a nation can scarcely be inferred from a measurement of national income as defined by the GDP.

You could also read this:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/04/30/the-trouble-with-gdp (https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/04/30/the-trouble-with-gdp)

GDP, Productivity and Inflation figures are all highly unreliable and the way they are banded about as fact and then used to support one position or another is just down right folly and you would be well served to understand their significant limitations and frequent revisions before sounding off.


Unfortunately these are the best figures we have, there are no alternatives so they give the best available picture. Unless you can point to better alternatives, of course.

[RyeSloan]

Unfortunately these are the best figures we have, there are no alternatives so they give the best available picture. Unless you can point to better alternatives, of course.

But they are not and they do nothing of the sort to give ‘the best available picture’ that’s been known for a long time....as my quote above suggests it’s actually been known since the modern version of GDP was created.

There is plenty of alternatives and many minds greater than mine have been suggesting alternatives for quite some time.

Just a couple of the many many articles and papers that suggest alternatives:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/five-measures-of-growth-that-are-better-than-gdp/

https://howwegettonext.com/gdp-sucks-here-are-some-better-alternatives-88cf2bfec017

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry but that’s just bollox. I’ve been pretty clear for a long time that GDP is a nonsense figure and using short term GDP numbers to make an economic point is pretty much pointless. Nothing to do with Brexit at all.

To quote Simon Kuznets himself:

The welfare of a nation can scarcely be inferred from a measurement of national income as defined by the GDP.

You could also read this:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/04/30/the-trouble-with-gdp (https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/04/30/the-trouble-with-gdp)

GDP, Productivity and Inflation figures are all highly unreliable and the way they are banded about as fact and then used to support one position or another is just down right folly and you would be well served to understand their significant limitations and frequent revisions before sounding off.

Good, interesting article and the graph posted is but a mere snapshot of something that means nothing without a whole load of context.

Funny that I'm a fervent Remainer and you are portrayed as the ideological Brexiter :greengrin yet we seem in agreement on this.

Economics is constructed as a science when it's no such thing. It's educated guesswork that only validates itself by looking in the rear-view mirror IMO.

[RyeSloan]

Good, interesting article and the graph posted is but a mere snapshot of something that means nothing without a whole load of context.

Funny that I'm a fervent Remainer and you are portrayed as the ideological Brexiter :greengrin yet we seem in agreement on this.

Economics is constructed as a science when it's no such thing. It's educated guesswork that only validates itself by looking in the rear-view mirror IMO.

Yeah the propensity of economic indicators and forecasts to make political points is a bit of a bug near of mine. None more so than distilling a whole economy into one figure that few understand nor appreciate the severe limitations of.

Hee hee I did laugh at the thought of being an idealogical Brexiteer but as ever there seems to be no middle ground these days. Or being allowed to see the validity in some arguments for and against anything. You are either a full remoaner or Rees Mogg.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah the propensity of economic indicators and forecasts to make political points is a bit of a bug near of mine. None more so than distilling a whole economy into one figure that few understand nor appreciate the severe limitations of.

Hee hee I did laugh at the thought of being an idealogical Brexiteer but as ever there seems to be no middle ground these days. Or being allowed to see the validity in some arguments for and against anything. You are either a full remoaner or Rees Mogg.

Seems to be a thing in social media and maybe more generally.

You see it on threads about the club and you see it on political stuff. You are either one thing or another. Totally binary and no middle ground.

Real life is far more complex and nuanced, it's a shame that debate,whether on here or elsewhere, doesn't always reflect that.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seems to be a thing in social media and maybe more generally.

You see it on threads about the club and you see it on political stuff. You are either one thing or another. Totally binary and no middle ground.

Real life is far more complex and nuanced, it's a shame that debate,whether on here or elsewhere, doesn't always reflect that.

You're both BritNat Yoons to me! :na na::wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

You're both BritNat Yoons to me! :na na::wink:

You know I picture you in a semmit and a cheap kilt, face painted with blue woad, with a can of Tennent's SuperStrength in hand, listening to downloads of Lewis Grassic Gibbon novels while streaming Runrig albums :greengrin

As for RyeSloan and me, we are probably more similar than either of us would like to acknowledge :greengrin

Ultimately, it's pettiness that divides most of us. And principle, that can be overcome through compromise.

[JeMeSouviens]

You know I picture you in a semmit and a cheap kilt, face painted with blue woad, with a can of Tennent's SuperStrength in hand, listening to downloads of Lewis Grassic Gibbon novels while streaming Runrig albums :greengrin

As for RyeSloan and me, we are probably more similar than either of us would like to acknowledge :greengrin

Ultimately, it's pettiness that divides most of us. And principle, that can be overcome through compromise.

You take that back - I ****** hate Runrig! :grr:

[Mibbes Aye]

You take that back - I ****** hate Runrig! :grr:

Trust issue here, can I really take your word for it or are you really a Donny Munro-fanboy?

.Net deserves to know :agree:

[RyeSloan]

Ahh man there is no end to the Brexit horrors...now sandwiches are going to be ‘victims’

Loved this bit:

Responses from Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab have been slightly evasive on this issue. When asked by MPs whether the government was stockpiling food he said: "It would be wrong to describe it as the government doing stockpiling but we will look at this issue in the round and make sure that there is adequate food supply."


This has led to images being conjured of massive warehouses being filled with emergency rations to see the nation through as if on a war footing


Eh WTF? When asked he said it was WRONG to say stockpiling was happening yet still we somehow then immediately conjure up war time and massive warehouses with emergency rations in....seriously?!?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44960293

[JeMeSouviens]

Trust issue here, can I really take your word for it or are you really a Donny Munro-fanboy?

.Net deserves to know :agree:

I think he’s a bit of a fanny*, does that help? :dunno:


* Pete Wishart as well

[heretoday]

Norway-style Brexit, please.

EFTA rules.

[grunt]

Norway-style Brexit, please.

EFTA rules.
I'd rather have no Brexit at all, thank you very much.

[Geo_1875]

Norway-style Brexit, please.

EFTA rules.

When did Norway leave the EU?

[CropleyWasGod]

.

[Colr]

When did Norway leave the EU?

Norway has never been in the EU.

[Mr Grieves]

This is an interesting piece about how a no deal brexit would impact the import/export of food.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/27/this-is-what-no-deal-brexit-actually-looks-like

[JeMeSouviens]

This is at least a potentially significant opinion crossover:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-07-27/Should%20be%20second%20ref%20tracker%202-01.png

[JeMeSouviens]

Another one: I'm not sure if "Sky Data" has any track record as a pollster but they do say it was a properly weighted poll and they adhere to British Polling Council guidelines:

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374981.jpg

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374982.jpg

Encouraging numbers. :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

Reported in the Times today by Tim Shipman (who wrote the definitive book on the referendum from inside both campaigns, "All Out War"):


The government has demanded that companies and industry groups involved in Brexit planning sign non-disclosure agreements in an attempt to prevent alarming details leaking out.

That explains why the plan to publicise no-deal preparations throughout the summer has been canned. The original plan was scrapped after a meeting last week chaired by Philip Rycroft, the senior mandarin in the Brexit department. A source said: “People will **** themselves and think they want a new referendum or an election or think the Tory party shouldn’t govern again. MPs are saying: ‘If this is done badly, it could hurt us like sleaze did in the 1990s.’”

[lord bunberry]

Reported in the Times today by Tim Shipman (who wrote the definitive book on the referendum from inside both campaigns, "All Out War"):
Yet another example of the government doing what’s best for them politically, rather than what’s best for the country.

[Ryan69]

Another one: I'm not sure if "Sky Data" has any track record as a pollster but they do say it was a properly weighted poll and they adhere to British Polling Council guidelines:

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374981.jpg

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374982.jpg

Encouraging numbers. :aok:

Do you not actually believe the anti brexit media agenda make numbers up?

Its like the usual immigration has reduced rubbish they feed us.
4 year ago Romania gained freedom of movement...and theres about 1 million here. Bulgaria joined also.
So if immigration level from other countries was at approx 250,000....How is that even possible?

The media have their own agenda to influence people for what they want!

Its like every country that ever voted to leave the EU....was forced to keep voting till the correct result materialised.

Its an unelected dictatorship...that has never had an audited set of accounts.

Another thing too is that how can it be good for the economy?
A load of people that come here,work,send their money out the country....then claim all their tax back!
How can that be a good thing???

The EU is absolutely stiffing us...and how people cant see that is breathtaking!

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you not actually believe the anti brexit media agenda make numbers up?

Its like the usual immigration has reduced rubbish they feed us.
4 year ago Romania gained freedom of movement...and theres about 1 million here. Bulgaria joined also.
So if immigration level from other countries was at approx 250,000....How is that even possible?

The media have their own agenda to influence people for what they want!

Its like every country that ever voted to leave the EU....was forced to keep voting till the correct result materialised.

Its an unelected dictatorship...that has never had an audited set of accounts.

Another thing too is that how can it be good for the economy?
A load of people that come here,work,send their money out the country....then claim all their tax back!
How can that be a good thing???

The EU is absolutely stiffing us...and how people cant see that is breathtaking!

You'r undecided then? :wink:

[Ryan69]

You'r undecided then? :wink:

The UK is a far poorer country now...that when we were put into it undemocratically.

[CropleyWasGod]

The UK is a far poorer country now...that when we were put into it undemocratically.We weren't "put into it undemocratically". The government of the day, which we voted for, negotiated our entry.

Further, 2 years after we joined, we had a referendum on whether we should stay. The result was 2 to 1 in favour.

What's your evidence for saying we are much poorer than we were in 1973?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Ryan69]

We weren't "put into it undemocratically". The government of the day, which we voted for, negotiated our entry.

Further, 2 years after we joined, we had a referendum on whether we should stay. The result was 2 to 1 in favour.

What's your evidence for saying we are much poorer than we were in 1973?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

We entered a trade agreement....not dictatorship!

[Slavers]

Another one: I'm not sure if "Sky Data" has any track record as a pollster but they do say it was a properly weighted poll and they adhere to British Polling Council guidelines:

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374981.jpg

https://e3.365dm.com/18/07/1600x1200/skynews-sky-data-brexit_4374982.jpg

Encouraging numbers. :aok:

Polls are used to shape pubic opinion not reflect it. You only need to note how recent elections and referendum results have went against the polls to see that.

[CropleyWasGod]

We entered a trade agreement....not dictatorship!That's not really answering my question.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

Polls are used to shape pubic opinion not reflect it. You only need to note how recent elections and referendum results have went against the polls to see that.Are you saying that all opinion polls are controlled by the Government of the day? If you are, they're not making a very good job of it, given what you say about the polls being used to shape public opinion.

Btw, did you mean pubic opinion? Or did you make a **** of it? [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK is a far poorer country now...that when we were put into it undemocratically.

You're older than I thought, 1707 is a long time ago for you to remember :wink:

[PeeJay]

Its like every country that ever voted to leave the EU....was forced to keep voting till the correct result materialised.



NO - 3 countries have left the EU - two left after they gained independence from France - one left after it held a referendum ...

[Colr]

Given the advice notes from the government which were to be issued but were cancelled because they would scare the **** out of everyone, I wondered if the Scottish government had made any contingency plans to safeguard Scotland's food supply and access to medicines.

I haven’t heard anything on this and wondered if they were making plans to ensure that Scotland can protect itself and not lose out to England if there are shortages.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you not actually believe the anti brexit media agenda make numbers up?

Its like the usual immigration has reduced rubbish they feed us.
4 year ago Romania gained freedom of movement...and theres about 1 million here. Bulgaria joined also.
So if immigration level from other countries was at approx 250,000....How is that even possible?

The media have their own agenda to influence people for what they want!

Its like every country that ever voted to leave the EU....was forced to keep voting till the correct result materialised.

Its an unelected dictatorship...that has never had an audited set of accounts.

Another thing too is that how can it be good for the economy?
A load of people that come here,work,send their money out the country....then claim all their tax back!
How can that be a good thing???

The EU is absolutely stiffing us...and how people cant see that is breathtaking!

Are you here doing the fringe? :faf:

[JeMeSouviens]

Polls are used to shape pubic opinion not reflect it. You only need to note how recent elections and referendum results have went against the polls to see that.

Indyref polling was pretty much bang on. EUref polling consistently showed it would be close albeit most polls in the last week or so showed Remain slightly ahead.

Polling can be used to shape pubic (fnar) opinion, the client paying for the poll often gets to put the questions after all, but the standard VI ones are pretty good. They're rarely out by much. The mistake is to take a 1 or 2 % lead as gospel rather than indicating it's too close to call.

[Bristolhibby]

Given the advice notes from the government which were to be issued but were cancelled because they would scare the **** out of everyone, I wondered if the Scottish government had made any contingency plans to safeguard Scotland's food supply and access to medicines.

I haven’t heard anything on this and wondered if they were making plans to ensure that Scotland can protect itself and not lose out to England if there are shortages.

You obviously missed this then?

https://www.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

Anyhoo, back then Scotland was in the EU and would have continued to be along with the rUK, no border. Unlike what is happening on the island of Ireland.

This is totally different. You could say things have changed materially since then.

J

[Lendo]

Do you not actually believe the anti brexit media agenda make numbers up?

Its like the usual immigration has reduced rubbish they feed us.
4 year ago Romania gained freedom of movement...and theres about 1 million here. Bulgaria joined also.
So if immigration level from other countries was at approx 250,000....How is that even possible?

The media have their own agenda to influence people for what they want!

Its like every country that ever voted to leave the EU....was forced to keep voting till the correct result materialised.

Its an unelected dictatorship...that has never had an audited set of accounts.

Another thing too is that how can it be good for the economy?
A load of people that come here,work,send their money out the country....then claim all their tax back!
How can that be a good thing???

The EU is absolutely stiffing us...and how people cant see that is breathtaking!

This is absolute comedy gold.

1,000,000 Romanians! HAAHAHAHAH the actual figure is about 400,000 (and that actually included Bulgarians too). I'm sure you will say this is far too many.

Only three countries have ever left the EU.
Algeria: which was a member of the common market place due to it's connections with France. Their membership ceased in '62 when they gained their independence.
Greenland: Won home rule from Denmark in 1982. Voted 53 per cent to leave. Although their citizens remain EU citizens under Danish Law.
Saint Barthélemy: was a member of the EU due to connections with France. Ceased to be a member when Guadeloupe seceded.

Unelected Dictatorship? Please explain how.

The European Council: Heads of government from all member states. They meet every six months to decide on the directions the EU should be headed in - HEADS OF GOVERNMENT = ELECTED

The European Parliament: 750 MEP who are appointed to their position via European elections. Ken, the elections that only 34% of Brits actually vote in? ELECTED

The Council of the European Union: Made of up national ministers from member states. So Health issues we are represented by Matt Hancock MP, finance Philip Hammond MP. Again, all of these people that are representing you are ELECTED.

With regards to audited account i attach the following fact-check
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

The only thing I can agree with you on is that the media have their own agenda. Although I suspect we will disagree as to what direction that agenda is pointed

[Bristolhibby]

I know. Just because you don’t know how they are elected, does not make the assertion that the EU is unelected to be true.

The House of Lords on the other hand!

J

[JeMeSouviens]

The latest Brexity thing to put alongside soft, hard, clean, in-name-only Brexits - a "blind Brexit". Basically leave the EU without the faintest idea what the future relationship will be. :confused:

Given the last couple of years of kicking the cake down the road, I'd say this is probably quite a likely outcome. :rolleyes:


Robert Peston
9 mins ·
Facebook Creator
·
I cannot find a minister or Tory MP, outside of the PM’s immediate circle, who believes her Chequers Brexit plan is viable - partly because too many Tory MPs and members loathe it, and partly because its central elements on customs and goods trade are anathema to the EU’s negotiators.

So what next?

Well my understanding is that one of the Brexit campaign’s two big beasts, the environment secretary Michael Gove, has arrived at the perhaps startling view that the least worst option now is what some are styling “a blind Brexit”.

This would be to recognise that parliament is too divided and too much time has already been wasted for a detailed plan for our future relationship with the EU to be negotiated and agreed in time for the summits in October or December.

Instead the withdrawal agreement - which formalises a default plan to keep open the Northern Ireland border and around £40bn of divorce payments by the UK - would be ratified by EU leaders, together with the highest level guiding principles for the UK’s future relationship with the EU.

In other words, we would leave the EU not having a clue whether Brexit would ultimately involve membership of the single market like Norway, or the customs union like Turkey, or associate status like Ukraine or having a Canadian style free trade agreement.

To repeat, Brexit on 29 March 2019 would be blind.

So why would a Brexiter like Gove opt for the final nature of Brexit being fudged to the ultimate degree?

Well partly because - as the FT has reported - the Germany is signalling that such a general statement of intent is the best they are prepared to concede before Brexit day.

And also because the alternatives for him - including perhaps irresistible pressure for a referendum - would be far worse.

If Chequers is dead, there may well be a cross party majority of MPs and Lords who would back Norway-style membership of the single market and also membership of a customs union, what True Brexiters would see as reducing the UK to the status of EU vassal or serf forever.

And, as I say, there is also growing parliamentary and popular pressure for a Brexit plebiscite - which would bring the significant risk of Brexit being reversed.

Gove calculates that this pressure for a referendum would be stalled if it became impossible with a blind Brexit to argue that the PM had secured a bad deal - in that she would not have any deal worth the name.

So how likely is a blind Brexit?

Well lots of Gove’s erstwhile Brexiter chums would go bonkers if that is where the PM lands - because they would fear, legitimately, that if tough choices are fudged now, what they think of as true Brexit would never be achieved.

That said Gove will have allies among the pragmatists and Remainers in the parliamentary Tory party. And Corbyn’s divided Labour party might also welcome being let off the Brexit hook.

So perhaps we should start to brace ourselves for leaving the EU with our eyes shut.

[JeMeSouviens]

And a startlingly upbeat press release from Michel Barnier:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/news/ambitious-partnership-uk-after-brexit-2018-aug-02_en


The United Kingdom will leave the European Union on 29 March 2019. While we regretted the UK's departure, we respect its sovereign decision. Our task is now to organise the disentanglement of the UK from the EU's institutions and policies. And we also need to look towards the future.

After Brexit, the EU will remain a global player, with 440 million citizens, and one of the biggest world economies. The UK has been an EU member for 45 years. We share common values and have a number of common interests. The UK, which is a member of the G7 and the UN Security Council, can be an important partner of the EU, economically and strategically. In the current geopolitical context, we have an interest not only to strengthen the EU's role in the world but to cooperate with the UK as a close partner.

How can we achieve a new partnership?

First, we need to make sure that the UK's exit is orderly. 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is agreed. We will protect the rights of more than 4 million EU citizens living in the UK and British nationals in the EU. This was our first priority and a major point of vigilance for the European Parliament. The UK has also agreed to honour all its financial obligations undertaken as an EU member. A 21 month transition period will give businesses and administrations time to adapt, as the UK would stay in our Single Market and Customs Union until 31 December 2020.

However, 80% is not 100%. We still need to agree on important points, such as the protection of "geographical indications". This refers to the protection of local farm and food products like Scottish Whisky or Parmesan cheese, where EU protection has generated significant value for European farmers and producers. We need to find solutions for specific British territories, such as the UK's sovereign bases in Cyprus, and Gibraltar on which bilateral negotiations are ongoing between Spain and the UK.

The biggest risk caused by Brexit is on the island of Ireland. We need to make sure that Brexit does not create a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and that the Good Friday Agreement, which has brought peace and stability to Northern Ireland, will be protected. Today, the cooperation and exchanges between Ireland and Northern Ireland occur within the common framework of the EU. Since we will not know what the future relationship will bring by Autumn 2018, we need to have a "backstop" solution in the Withdrawal Agreement. The UK agrees with this, and both the EU and the UK have said that a better solution in the future relationship could replace the backstop. What the EU has proposed is that Northern Ireland remains in a common regulatory area for goods and customs with the rest of the EU. We are ready to improve the text of our proposal with the UK.

Secondly, we need to agree on the terms of our future relationship.

Let's be frank: as the UK has decided to leave the Single Market, it can no longer be as close economically to the rest of the EU. The UK wants to leave our common regulatory area, where people, goods, services and capital move freely across national borders. These are the economic foundations on which the EU was built. And the European Council – the 27 Heads of State or government – as well as the European Parliament have often recalled that these economic foundations cannot be weakened.

The UK knows well the benefits of the Single Market. It has contributed to shaping our rules over the last 45 years. And yet, some UK proposals would undermine our Single Market which is one of the EU's biggest achievements. The UK wants to keep free movement of goods between us, but not of people and services. And it proposes to apply EU customs rules without being part of the EU's legal order. Thus, the UK wants to take back sovereignty and control of its own laws, which we respect, but it cannot ask the EU to lose control of its borders and laws.

But I remain confident that the negotiations can reach a good outcome. It is possible to respect EU principles and create a new and ambitious partnership. That is what the European Council has already proposed in March. The EU has offered a Free Trade Agreement with zero tariffs and no quantitative restrictions for goods. It proposed close customs and regulatory cooperation and access to public procurement markets, to name but a few examples.

On security, the EU wants very close cooperation to protect our citizens and democratic societies. We should organise effective exchanges of intelligence and information and make sure our law enforcement bodies work together. We should cooperate to fight crime, money laundering and terrorist financing. We can cooperate on the exchange of DNA, fingerprints, or Passenger Name Records in aviation to better track and identify terrorists and criminals. We are also ready to discuss mechanisms for swift and effective extradition, guaranteeing procedural rights for suspects.

If the UK understands this, and if we quickly find solutions to the outstanding withdrawal issues, including the backstop for Ireland and Northern Ireland, I am sure we can build a future partnership between the EU and the United Kingdom that is unprecedented in scope and depth.


Basically this says sort out the Irish backstop that you already agreed to and you can have a Canada+ style deal. The question is really whether Theresa and chums can come up with an NI compromise that attracts enough Tory support to see off the inevitable revolt from the revolting Rees-Mogg and the DUP.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is absolute comedy gold.

1,000,000 Romanians! HAAHAHAHAH the actual figure is about 400,000 (and that actually included Bulgarians too). I'm sure you will say this is far too many.

Only three countries have ever left the EU.
Algeria: which was a member of the common market place due to it's connections with France. Their membership ceased in '62 when they gained their independence.
Greenland: Won home rule from Denmark in 1982. Voted 53 per cent to leave. Although their citizens remain EU citizens under Danish Law.
Saint Barthélemy: was a member of the EU due to connections with France. Ceased to be a member when Guadeloupe seceded.

Unelected Dictatorship? Please explain how.

The European Council: Heads of government from all member states. They meet every six months to decide on the directions the EU should be headed in - HEADS OF GOVERNMENT = ELECTED

The European Parliament: 750 MEP who are appointed to their position via European elections. Ken, the elections that only 34% of Brits actually vote in? ELECTED

The Council of the European Union: Made of up national ministers from member states. So Health issues we are represented by Matt Hancock MP, finance Philip Hammond MP. Again, all of these people that are representing you are ELECTED.

With regards to audited account i attach the following fact-check
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

The only thing I can agree with you on is that the media have their own agenda. Although I suspect we will disagree as to what direction that agenda is pointed

What you say is true, but the European Parliament is not a parliament in the sense we known it- it can, I think, only amend legislation.

And the Commission, who you leave out for some reason, are the only body who can initiate legislation, and they are appointed and fairly unaccountable.

I'm pro-remain, but the EU is very far from perfect. Neither, I might add is the UK or Scottish Parliaments, but the point in both these cases is you vote for the government and their policies, and they have a mandate.

The European government (the Commission) don't have as direct a mandate, hence the justifiable sense that the EU is unaccountable and plows it's own furrow, regardless of public opinion.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And a startlingly upbeat press release from Michel Barnier:

[url]https://ec.europa.eu/commission/news/ambitious-partnership-uk-after-brexit-2018-aug-02_en[/url


Basically this says sort out the Irish backstop that you already agreed to and you can have a Canada+ style deal. The question is really whether Theresa and chums can come up with an NI compromise that attracts enough Tory support to see off the inevitable revolt from the revolting Rees-Mogg and the DUP.

Interesting... that seems to be a bit further and more explicit than the EU have been before? I suspect some member states are starting to exert some pressure to get the deal done.

I share your scepticism that we are coherent enough to reciprocate though

[JeMeSouviens]

Pro-remain biased analysis of Yougov's latest Brexit polling by Peter Kellner (who used to run Yougov). The numbers are certainly starting to look better for a 2nd ref and eventual death of Brexit. :aok:


The second YouGov poll was conducted this month for the People’s Vote campaign among a sample of more than 10,000. It tells us eight key things about why the public is on the move


As many as 73% of voters, including 60% of Leave voters, now agree that “it is likely that many of the promises made by politicians in favour of leaving the EU will be broken”. Just 13% disagree.
By almost two-to-one (43-22%), voters fear that Brexit would harm rather than boost Britain’s economy.
Few voters expect Brexit would enable the UK to “take back control”. Just 21% believe the UK would in practice gain the freedom to decide its own rules and regulations; 51% think we “will have to obey many EU rules and regulations if British businesses are to continue to trade freely with other European countries”.
Free and frictionless trade is seen as vital. If forced to choose, 50% would opt for free trade rather than the right to impose immigration controls; just 29% give immigration controls a higher priority.
If Brexit goes ahead, fully 70% want EU citizens to continue to have either an absolute right to settle in the UK (16%) or freedom for workers and students to come to the UK (54%). Thus freedom of movement of labour is popular, even if untrammelled freedom of movement for people is not. As other EU countries in practice qualify freedom of movement by drawing precisely that distinction, EU immigration need not be a stumbling block to a new deal that enables the UK to remain a member of the EU.
Given these findings, it makes sense that, by 45-34%, voters now favour “a public vote on the outcome of the negotiations”.
Furthermore, YouGov went on to ask a completely new question: what should happen if talks break down and there is no deal between London and Brussels: “should the final decision be made by MPs voting in Parliament or the public voting in a new referendum?” 50% want a public vote, while just 25% opt for MPs voting in Parliament.
Even people who voted Leave tend to prefer a new referendum, by 39-34%.


There is clearly the potential for a broadly-based campaign this autumn for a People’s Vote, should the Brussels talks go badly. Across the spectrum, the message from voters is clear: if the government and Parliament can’t sort out Brexit, the people should.

https://infacts.org/massive-summer-polls-are-sending-clear-brexit-message/

[One Day Soon]

Pro-remain biased analysis of Yougov's latest Brexit polling by Peter Kellner (who used to run Yougov). The numbers are certainly starting to look better for a 2nd ref and eventual death of Brexit. :aok:



https://infacts.org/massive-summer-polls-are-sending-clear-brexit-message/


I ****ing hope so but I fear not. Too much momentum behind it now to be allowed to fail.

[JeMeSouviens]

I ****ing hope so but I fear not. Too much momentum behind it now to be allowed to fail.

I'm not so sure. I think there were 2 factors in favour of pushing it through: that people were genuinely sick to death and just wanted it over and that even the Remain side had a sort of oh well that's democracy, better get on with it, sort of attitude. I think the Rees-Moggy/ERG faction have overplayed their hand by pushing to reject all compromise, go for the kamikaze no deal and cry betrayal over anything May manages to come up with. Forcing things too close to catastrophe might just stir things up enough to kill it off.

[RyeSloan]

Are we there yet? Wow what a drag this Brexit thing has been.

Despite the polls and the Independent’s best efforts to pretend anyone is still bothered I seriously doubt a second ref will be held.

As it is I’ve been watching some of the comments coming out of Italy and their Euro scepticism appears to be rising by the day.

Firstly we see Claudio Borghi demanding Italian bond yields are capped at 150bps above German rates to prevent a collapse of the Euro. Which is an interesting demand which effectively is asking for Italian debt to be subsidised by the ECB directly (probably with printed money). This would takes the financial rigging of the Euro to a whole new level.

Now we see Salvini, days after bemoaning the cost of EU sanctions on Russia to his country, is using the bridge collapse to lambast the EU deficit rules and demand that the rules are ‘adjusted’ to ignore ever more spending...basically fudging the numbers on a grand scale.

I sense there is going to be a lot of agitation in the EU over how to deal with Italy...a country that after all has suffered massively from being in the Euro and is now looking like its rapidly moving towards wondering just why it’s worth sticking to a currency and rules that appear to make it poorer and unable to determine its own actions to resolve the situation.

I’m sure the Spanish and the Portuguese are looking in with many a vested interest on how this plays out while the Eurocrats tremble in the knowledge that Italy can’t be forced into a crushing decline like they imposed on Greece to save their bacon this time.

[JeMeSouviens]

Are we there yet? Wow what a drag this Brexit thing has been.

Despite the polls and the Independent’s best efforts to pretend anyone is still bothered I seriously doubt a second ref will be held.

As it is I’ve been watching some of the comments coming out of Italy and their Euro scepticism appears to be rising by the day.

Firstly we see Claudio Borghi demanding Italian bond yields are capped at 150bps above German rates to prevent a collapse of the Euro. Which is an interesting demand which effectively is asking for Italian debt to be subsidised by the ECB directly (probably with printed money). This would takes the financial rigging of the Euro to a whole new level.

Now we see Salvini, days after bemoaning the cost of EU sanctions on Russia to his country, is using the bridge collapse to lambast the EU deficit rules and demand that the rules are ‘adjusted’ to ignore ever more spending...basically fudging the numbers on a grand scale.

I sense there is going to be a lot of agitation in the EU over how to deal with Italy...a country that after all has suffered massively from being in the Euro and is now looking like its rapidly moving towards wondering just why it’s worth sticking to a currency and rules that appear to make it poorer and unable to determine its own actions to resolve the situation.

I’m sure the Spanish and the Portuguese are looking in with many a vested interest on how this plays out while the Eurocrats tremble in the knowledge that Italy can’t be forced into a crushing decline like they imposed on Greece to save their bacon this time.

1. There are noises about Italy leaving the Eurozone (Quitaly) but nobody is talking about them leaving the EU bar Brexiteers.
2. It's not the "Eurocrats" or "Brussels" that need to move to stop this. It's the Germans.
3. Rumblings about Italy and the Euro are not going to save Brexit's bacon as public opinion here really couldn't gaf. :na na:

[RyeSloan]

1. There are noises about Italy leaving the Eurozone (Quitaly) but nobody is talking about them leaving the EU bar Brexiteers.
2. It's not the "Eurocrats" or "Brussels" that need to move to stop this. It's the Germans.
3. Rumblings about Italy and the Euro are not going to save Brexit's bacon as public opinion here really couldn't gaf. :na na:

So the EU is ruled by Germany? Thought so [emoji13]

But I agree the UK public opinion on Brexit is not going to be moved by the Italians at this point but when you see Borghi saying ‘the situation [high bond yields spread] can’t be resolved, and it’s going to explode’ you do get the feeling that Italy is not exactly in love with the Euro.

And sure Italy exiting the EU seems a rather remote possibility but none the less with the third largest member showing such signs of dissatisfaction and a popularist government using the ongoing woes of the country as a stick to beat the EU with at every opportunity it will be interesting to see what develops from here.

[JeMeSouviens]

So the EU is ruled by Germany? Thought so [emoji13]

But I agree the UK public opinion on Brexit is not going to be moved by the Italians at this point but when you see Borghi saying ‘the situation [high bond yields spread] can’t be resolved, and it’s going to explode’ you do get the feeling that Italy is not exactly in love with the Euro.

And sure Italy exiting the EU seems a rather remote possibility but none the less with the third largest member showing such signs of dissatisfaction and a popularist government using the ongoing woes of the country as a stick to beat the EU with at every opportunity it will be interesting to see what develops from here.

The Eurozone is dominated by Germany and the Euro can't be fixed without German willingness to move.

You need to fix your Brexit-speak though. Everyone knows the EU is ruled by Brussels' faceless Eurocrats. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

The Eurozone is dominated by Germany and the Euro can't be fixed without German willingness to move.

You need to fix your Brexit-speak though. Everyone knows the EU is ruled by Brussels' faceless Eurocrats. :aok:

Ha ha well since Germany appears to be the sole winner in the Euro I doubt they want to move far from that position!

And I’ll bear in mind to drop a few faceless Eurocrat comments in the next time 🤪

It’s funny though that most people against Brexit to at least some degree seem to suggest the EU needs ‘reformed’ or the Euro ‘fixed’ while conveniently ignoring the huge difficulties in doing either.

In fact they also seem to ignore that the Euro is fundamentally one of the most bonkers currency set ups known to man and somehow it’s continued existence seems to be more important that the people that’s use its welfare.

Anyway I wasn’t intending to ramble on about the pros n cons...I was merely highlighting the continued strain within the EU and the Eurozone with one of its biggest founding nations.

[Hibrandenburg]

Are we there yet? Wow what a drag this Brexit thing has been.

Despite the polls and the Independent’s best efforts to pretend anyone is still bothered I seriously doubt a second ref will be held.

As it is I’ve been watching some of the comments coming out of Italy and their Euro scepticism appears to be rising by the day.

Firstly we see Claudio Borghi demanding Italian bond yields are capped at 150bps above German rates to prevent a collapse of the Euro. Which is an interesting demand which effectively is asking for Italian debt to be subsidised by the ECB directly (probably with printed money). This would takes the financial rigging of the Euro to a whole new level.

Now we see Salvini, days after bemoaning the cost of EU sanctions on Russia to his country, is using the bridge collapse to lambast the EU deficit rules and demand that the rules are ‘adjusted’ to ignore ever more spending...basically fudging the numbers on a grand scale.

I sense there is going to be a lot of agitation in the EU over how to deal with Italy...a country that after all has suffered massively from being in the Euro and is now looking like its rapidly moving towards wondering just why it’s worth sticking to a currency and rules that appear to make it poorer and unable to determine its own actions to resolve the situation.

I’m sure the Spanish and the Portuguese are looking in with many a vested interest on how this plays out while the Eurocrats tremble in the knowledge that Italy can’t be forced into a crushing decline like they imposed on Greece to save their bacon this time.

All of the EU will be following Brexit very closely and depending on how the UK fairs they will cut their cloth accordingly. I see a bright future for the EU:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Ha ha well since Germany appears to be the sole winner in the Euro I doubt they want to move far from that position!

And I’ll bear in mind to drop a few faceless Eurocrat comments in the next time 🤪

It’s funny though that most people against Brexit to at least some degree seem to suggest the EU needs ‘reformed’ or the Euro ‘fixed’ while conveniently ignoring the huge difficulties in doing either.

In fact they also seem to ignore that the Euro is fundamentally one of the most bonkers currency set ups known to man and somehow it’s continued existence seems to be more important that the people that’s use its welfare.

Anyway I wasn’t intending to ramble on about the pros n cons...I was merely highlighting the continued strain within the EU and the Eurozone with one of its biggest founding nations.

Didn't I read somewhere that the Bank of England were investigating in the Euro because they saw it as more stable than the dollar?

[RyeSloan]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Bank of England were investigating in the Euro because they saw it as more stable than the dollar?

Are you asking me to tell you if you have read something or not? 🤪

As it is from what I can see the foreign currency reserves split between the Euro and the USD appears to be relatively static. And anyway no foreign currency reserve would make too much sense without a hefty weighting in the USD...it is after all the worlds most dominant currency no matter which you look at it.

[grunt]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Bank of England were investigating in the Euro because they saw it as more stable than the dollar?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/treasury-shifts-cash-into-euros-ahead-of-brexit-kjmjzbx7r?shareToken=b9fdca3cd62b4e9de18be0b4fb710 9a6



The Bank of England has ploughed billions of the Treasury’s foreign currency reserves into euros since the Brexit referendum, in an apparent vote of confidence in the single currency. Figures from the Bank — which manages stocks of foreign currency on behalf of the Treasury — show that Britain now holds more euros than dollars in its reserves, reversing the position of June 2016.

[Callum_62]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OTJIez1oRZ4&feature=youtu.be


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/treasury-shifts-cash-into-euros-ahead-of-brexit-kjmjzbx7r?shareToken=b9fdca3cd62b4e9de18be0b4fb710 9a6

Thanks for posting that. I was coming to the conclusion that I'd dreamt it!

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45250070

The madness continues.

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-bombshell-majority-scots-13183878.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Brexit poll bombshell as majority of Scots say they'll back independence after Britain leaves EU
The survey also predicts a full-scale break up of British state with 52 per cent of voters in Northern Ireland backing a united Ireland in the wake of Brexit.

SHARE
BY TORCUIL CRICHTON
The polling data shows that 47% would back Independence after Brexit with 43 against(Image: Daily Record)
A majority of Scots will back *independence after Britain leaves the European Union, according to a *bombshell poll showing how Brexit could spell the end of the UK.

The poll, commissioned by a *pro-Remain campaign group, shows 47 per cent of Scots would vote for *Independence when Britain leaves the European Union while just 43 per cent would vote for Scotland to remain in the UK, with 10 per cent unsure.


This is a stunning reverse of voting intention if the UK Remains in the EU, with 47 per cent of people telling pollsters they would vote against Independence in that case and 43 per cent voting to go it alone.

The Brexit factor appears to have even more dramatic political consequences in Northern Ireland, with an incredible 52 per cent of voters saying they would back a united Ireland in the wake of Brexit.



Only 39 per cent would vote to remain as part of UK under those circumstances.

If Britain stayed within the EU, only 35 per cent of voters in Northern Ireland would support a united Ireland, according to the Best for Britain poll which campaigners are using to demonstrate the constitutional chaos Brexit could unleash on the UK.


Taking away any reference to Brexit, the independence question in Scotland remains on a knife-edge according to the poll of 1022 people conducted by Deltapoll.


Asked how they would vote if there were an independence referendum tomorrow, 47 per cent would be for remaining in the UK and
45 per cent for leaving, with eight per cent undecided.

Nearly half of Scottish voters, some 48 per cent, believe that the public mood has shifted since the Brexit referendum and that it would be would be wrong to leave the EU based on the 2016 result.

Some 31 per cent think it would be the right thing to leave anyway, and 21 per cent of voters don’t know.

In the Brexit referendum, Scotland voted 62 per cent to 38 per cent to Remain. The overall result across the UK was 52 per cent for Leave and 48 per cent for Remain.

In Northern Ireland, which voted 56 per cent to 44 per cent to Remain in the referendum the political impact of Brexit seems even more pronounced.

In the Northern Irish poll, 52 per cent of voters, would vote for a united Ireland outside of the UK if Britain leaves the EU.

The shock poll also showed that 56 per cent of voters would back a united Ireland if Britain left the European Union and a hard border existed.

Eloise Todd, the Best for Britain chief, says the polling evidence should be enough to make people stop and think again(Image: PA Archive)
READ MORE
Scotland CAN have another independence referendum - but not for 20 years says Jacob Rees-Mogg
Some 40 per cent would keep the Union and only four per cent didn’t know.

Eloise Todd, the Best for Britain chief, said the polling evidence should be enough to make people stop and think again. She added: “When people voted in 2016, they didn’t vote to break up the union and risk both Scotland and Northern Ireland voting for a different future outside the UK.

“This is compelling evidence as to why we need to stop and think again.

“The public deserve a say on the final deal, with the knowledge that if Brexit happens we could shatter the union *altogether.”

But polling guru Sir John Curtice sounded a note of caution.

The Strathclyde University politics professor said the poll showed the union did not look particularly secure irrespective of what happened with Brexit.

But SNP MP Stephen Gethins predicted Brexit would boost the *independence cause.

He said: “As the deeply damaging consequences of a ‘No deal’ Brexit become clearer, as Scotland’s economy continues to outperform the UK, and as people grow *increasingly concerned about the future under Westminster rule, support for Scotland’s ability to take its own *decisions in an independent country will only grow further.”

Labour MEP *Catherine Stihler insisted the poll revealed “a clear and present danger” to the future of the UK.

She said: “The Tories’ reckless gamble with the EU referendum and Theresa May’s disastrous handling of the negotiations are stretching the historic bonds that unite us.”

Stephen Gethins reckons Brexit will boost Nicola Sturgeon's chances of achieving Independence for Scotland(Image: Andy Buchanan/AFP/Getty Images)
Remain-backing Tory MP Dr Phillip Lee said: “No government, especially a *Conservative one, can legitimately pursue this course which will likely lead – perhaps not tomorrow or next year or over the next decade but nonetheless inexorably – to breaking our home union.

Nicola Sturgeon's pledge to boost 'wealth and wellbeing' of Scots communities
“The only legitimate course now is to suspend or revoke Article 50 and call a second referendum offering people a choice between the Leave the *Brexiteers want and remaining in the EU on a new deal.”

But Colin Clark, Scottish Conservative MP for Gordon, said the focus should be on securing the best deal for all parts of the UK as Britain leaves the EU.

He said: “The people of Scotland voted by a significant margin to remain part of the United Kingdom in 2014.

“The body of polling work since then does not suggest any meaningful change in that view.”

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-bombshell-majority-scots-13183878.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Brexit poll bombshell as majority of Scots say they'll back independence after Britain leaves EU
The survey also predicts a full-scale break up of British state with 52 per cent of voters in Northern Ireland backing a united Ireland in the wake of Brexit.

SHARE
BY TORCUIL CRICHTON
The polling data shows that 47% would back Independence after Brexit with 43 against(Image: Daily Record)
A majority of Scots will back *independence after Britain leaves the European Union, according to a *bombshell poll showing how Brexit could spell the end of the UK.

The poll, commissioned by a *pro-Remain campaign group, shows 47 per cent of Scots would vote for *Independence when Britain leaves the European Union while just 43 per cent would vote for Scotland to remain in the UK, with 10 per cent unsure.


This is a stunning reverse of voting intention if the UK Remains in the EU, with 47 per cent of people telling pollsters they would vote against Independence in that case and 43 per cent voting to go it alone.

The Brexit factor appears to have even more dramatic political consequences in Northern Ireland, with an incredible 52 per cent of voters saying they would back a united Ireland in the wake of Brexit.



Only 39 per cent would vote to remain as part of UK under those circumstances.

If Britain stayed within the EU, only 35 per cent of voters in Northern Ireland would support a united Ireland, according to the Best for Britain poll which campaigners are using to demonstrate the constitutional chaos Brexit could unleash on the UK.


Taking away any reference to Brexit, the independence question in Scotland remains on a knife-edge according to the poll of 1022 people conducted by Deltapoll.


Asked how they would vote if there were an independence referendum tomorrow, 47 per cent would be for remaining in the UK and
45 per cent for leaving, with eight per cent undecided.

Nearly half of Scottish voters, some 48 per cent, believe that the public mood has shifted since the Brexit referendum and that it would be would be wrong to leave the EU based on the 2016 result.

Some 31 per cent think it would be the right thing to leave anyway, and 21 per cent of voters don’t know.

In the Brexit referendum, Scotland voted 62 per cent to 38 per cent to Remain. The overall result across the UK was 52 per cent for Leave and 48 per cent for Remain.

In Northern Ireland, which voted 56 per cent to 44 per cent to Remain in the referendum the political impact of Brexit seems even more pronounced.

In the Northern Irish poll, 52 per cent of voters, would vote for a united Ireland outside of the UK if Britain leaves the EU.

The shock poll also showed that 56 per cent of voters would back a united Ireland if Britain left the European Union and a hard border existed.

Eloise Todd, the Best for Britain chief, says the polling evidence should be enough to make people stop and think again(Image: PA Archive)
READ MORE
Scotland CAN have another independence referendum - but not for 20 years says Jacob Rees-Mogg
Some 40 per cent would keep the Union and only four per cent didn’t know.

Eloise Todd, the Best for Britain chief, said the polling evidence should be enough to make people stop and think again. She added: “When people voted in 2016, they didn’t vote to break up the union and risk both Scotland and Northern Ireland voting for a different future outside the UK.

“This is compelling evidence as to why we need to stop and think again.

“The public deserve a say on the final deal, with the knowledge that if Brexit happens we could shatter the union *altogether.”

But polling guru Sir John Curtice sounded a note of caution.

The Strathclyde University politics professor said the poll showed the union did not look particularly secure irrespective of what happened with Brexit.

But SNP MP Stephen Gethins predicted Brexit would boost the *independence cause.

He said: “As the deeply damaging consequences of a ‘No deal’ Brexit become clearer, as Scotland’s economy continues to outperform the UK, and as people grow *increasingly concerned about the future under Westminster rule, support for Scotland’s ability to take its own *decisions in an independent country will only grow further.”

Labour MEP *Catherine Stihler insisted the poll revealed “a clear and present danger” to the future of the UK.

She said: “The Tories’ reckless gamble with the EU referendum and Theresa May’s disastrous handling of the negotiations are stretching the historic bonds that unite us.”

Stephen Gethins reckons Brexit will boost Nicola Sturgeon's chances of achieving Independence for Scotland(Image: Andy Buchanan/AFP/Getty Images)
Remain-backing Tory MP Dr Phillip Lee said: “No government, especially a *Conservative one, can legitimately pursue this course which will likely lead – perhaps not tomorrow or next year or over the next decade but nonetheless inexorably – to breaking our home union.

Nicola Sturgeon's pledge to boost 'wealth and wellbeing' of Scots communities
“The only legitimate course now is to suspend or revoke Article 50 and call a second referendum offering people a choice between the Leave the *Brexiteers want and remaining in the EU on a new deal.”

But Colin Clark, Scottish Conservative MP for Gordon, said the focus should be on securing the best deal for all parts of the UK as Britain leaves the EU.

He said: “The people of Scotland voted by a significant margin to remain part of the United Kingdom in 2014.

“The body of polling work since then does not suggest any meaningful change in that view.”

"An incredible 52 per cent" :tsk tsk:

[JeMeSouviens]

"An incredible 52 per cent" :tsk tsk:

The "incredible" 52% is for a United Ireland and that's including DKs - it's 57-43 ex DK. In the context of NI politics that *is* incredible.

[Mr Grieves]

"An incredible 52 per cent" :tsk tsk:

It's not exactly overwhelmingly decisive either way. It's interesting that some folk are willing to change their mind based on staying in the EU, maybe some people do care about brexit more than some posters on here would have you believe?

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not exactly overwhelmingly decisive either way. It's interesting that some folk are willing to change their mind based on staying in the EU, maybe some people do care about brexit more than some posters on here would have you believe?

The NI polling is particularly interesting in that the putative Brexit effect is so big, 60-40 against unification changes to 57-43 in favour.

But even in Scotland, with the polling being fairly even, only a small swing to Yes is needed. The overwhelming majority of voters can be in couldn't care less mode, but if a small chunk of swing voters do care it'll be enough to shift the total.

[lapsedhibee]

The "incredible" 52% is for a United Ireland and that's including DKs - it's 57-43 ex DK. In the context of NI politics that *is* incredible.

If you're happy to use 'incredible' to describe a tiny majority, what word would you use to describe the huge majorities sometimes returned in some overseas elections? Show a bit of respect for the language! :grr: :panic: :wink:

[Smartie]

The NI polling is particularly interesting in that the putative Brexit effect is so big, 60-40 against unification changes to 57-43 in favour.

But even in Scotland, with the polling being fairly even, only a small swing to Yes is needed. The overwhelming majority of voters can be in couldn't care less mode, but if a small chunk of swing voters do care it'll be enough to shift the total.

I can't believe people in Northern Ireland would change their mind - I thought you were a British Unionist or Irish Nationalist practically from birth?

I was aware that there was a general trend towards there being a Nationalist majority in Northern Ireland, but I thought it was more through breeding patterns over a long time than anyone actively changing their mind?

[Smartie]

It's not exactly overwhelmingly decisive either way. It's interesting that some folk are willing to change their mind based on staying in the EU, maybe some people do care about brexit more than some posters on here would have you believe?

My partner's Dad was incensed in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum. He's a Liberal Democrat and voted No in the Independence referendum.

He was/ is very unhappy about the idea of the UK leaving the EU, and in that immediate aftermath would have been in favour of Scottish Independence as a way to get back into the EU.

Over time though he's settled down a bit, and has come to terms with it a bit more (after me helping him come to terms with it by squarely laying the blame for us Scots leaving the EU on No voters like himself) and I'd be surprised if he cared enough to vote differently in an independence referendum.

I think that there are a good few Labour/ Conservative/ LibDem voters who would have voted No last time round who might over time at least re-think their position, but tbh everyone retreated so far into their bunkers I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to change their position on Scottish Independence this soon after the last referendum.

[JeMeSouviens]

If you're happy to use 'incredible' to describe a tiny majority, what word would you use to describe the huge majorities sometimes returned in some overseas elections? Show a bit of respect for the language! :grr: :panic: :wink:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/incredible

"2.Difficult to believe; extraordinary."

If you have followed NI politics for any length of time and you don't think a 57-43 majority for a United Ireland is "difficult to believe" or "extraordinary" then you are, frankly, barking!

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't believe people in Northern Ireland would change their mind - I thought you were a British Unionist or Irish Nationalist practically from birth?

I was aware that there was a general trend towards there being a Nationalist majority in Northern Ireland, but I thought it was more through breeding patterns over a long time than anyone actively changing their mind?

The polling also asked "Generally speaking do you consider yourself to come from a Nationalist or Unionist heritage?" which came out:

Unionist: 47
Nationalist: 42
Neither: 9

The 57-43 United-Ireland-in-EU-as-UK-Brexits result breaks down as:

Unionist: 15-85
Nationalist: 98-2
Neither: 73-27

Whereas the 60-40 NI-in-UK-remaining-in-EU breaks down as:

Unionist: 96-4
Nationalist: 15-85
Neither: 32-68


So Brexit makes a chunk of pragmatic Nationalists who would stay in the UK flip to a UI, plus a chunk of pragmatic Unionists are peeled off to support a UI and the middle ground without a dog in the fight flips from one side to the other.

[JeMeSouviens]

My partner's Dad was incensed in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum. He's a Liberal Democrat and voted No in the Independence referendum.

He was/ is very unhappy about the idea of the UK leaving the EU, and in that immediate aftermath would have been in favour of Scottish Independence as a way to get back into the EU.

Over time though he's settled down a bit, and has come to terms with it a bit more (after me helping him come to terms with it by squarely laying the blame for us Scots leaving the EU on No voters like himself) and I'd be surprised if he cared enough to vote differently in an independence referendum.

I think that there are a good few Labour/ Conservative/ LibDem voters who would have voted No last time round who might over time at least re-think their position, but tbh everyone retreated so far into their bunkers I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to change their position on Scottish Independence this soon after the last referendum.

The polling consistently suggests about 10% of each side has defected.

[lapsedhibee]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/incredible

"2.Difficult to believe; extraordinary."

If you have followed NI politics for any length of time and you don't think a 57-43 majority for a United Ireland is "difficult to believe" or "extraordinary" then you are, frankly, barking!

You didn't answer the question.

[Sylar]

My partner's Dad was incensed in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum. He's a Liberal Democrat and voted No in the Independence referendum.

He was/ is very unhappy about the idea of the UK leaving the EU, and in that immediate aftermath would have been in favour of Scottish Independence as a way to get back into the EU.

Over time though he's settled down a bit, and has come to terms with it a bit more (after me helping him come to terms with it by squarely laying the blame for us Scots leaving the EU on No voters like himself) and I'd be surprised if he cared enough to vote differently in an independence referendum.

I think that there are a good few Labour/ Conservative/ LibDem voters who would have voted No last time round who might over time at least re-think their position, but tbh everyone retreated so far into their bunkers I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to change their position on Scottish Independence this soon after the last referendum.

I think a knee-jerk reaction to the Brexit result for many was "give me another bloody Independence referendum, now!", but your partner's dad is probably representative of a lot of folk who voted No/No. And it's representative of me, too.

I was a No*/No, and I was so angry after the Brexit result became apparent that I adopted the mentality of "if we're going to be ****ed anyway, we might as well be ****ed under our own damned flag". But I no longer feel that way. The last thing we need here in Scotland is yet more uncertainty, and more unknowns. We'd be subject to the same non-information and wishful thinking that currently permeates much of the current Brexit discussions. The "We'll have x", and "We'll be able to do Y" bull**** is just that. Bull****. It requires both sides to agree, it requires negotiations. And we'd see the same debates and spin in any new Independence referendum.

"The EU will welcome us back in".
"No they won't. Because Spain..".
"But they will. They want us in".
"No they don't."

SNP: "We'll use a currency agreement!"
UK Govt/BoE: "Erm, naw ye willnae".
SNP: "But you need us - it JUST MAKES SENSE!".
UK Govt/BoE: "But you'll possibly be part of the EU, and we've already told them to **** off...sorry old chums!"

Both sides can argue and promise the world, but the Brexit negotiations just go to show that without any clad iron agreements beforehand, nobody would truly know what they're voting for. It remains an idealistic fantasty for me, and it would be disastrous for our economy. More so than the impacts of Brexit alone.

*My "no" in the Scottish referendum wasn't an actual vote, rather a "stance", as I was living in Surrey at the time.

[Hibrandenburg]

A recent poll on English leave voters highlights the gulf between leave voters in Scotland and England. 63% of English leave voters believe that losing Scotland is a price worth paying for Brexit.

[danhibees1875]

A recent poll on English leave voters highlights the gulf between leave voters in Scotland and England. 63% of English leave voters believe that losing Scotland is a price worth paying for Brexit.

With the other 37% saying it's a welcome bonus to leaving. :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=Hibrandenburg;5542818]A recent poll on English leave voters highlights the gulf between leave voters in Scotland and England. 63% of English leave voters believe that losing Scotland is a price worth paying for Brexit.[/QUOTE
I would suggest we let them vote next time round😀. Maybe it would also stop the nauseating sight of "celebrities" begging us not to go.

[Smartie]

[QUOTE=Hibrandenburg;5542818]A recent poll on English leave voters highlights the gulf between leave voters in Scotland and England. 63% of English leave voters believe that losing Scotland is a price worth paying for Brexit.[/QUOTE
I would suggest we let them vote next time round😀. Maybe it would also stop the nauseating sight of "celebrities" begging us not to go.

That's what I want.

The dynamic of the Independence movement would need to change to "we piss enough English people off and we gain our Independence" and it would be a formality. It would be a hilariously wretched spectacle for Scottish Unionists.

[Bristolhibby]

[QUOTE=weecounty hibby;5543068]

That's what I want.

The dynamic of the Independence movement would need to change to "we piss enough English people off and we gain our Independence" and it would be a formality. It would be a hilariously wretched spectacle for Scottish Unionists.

Just to follow this through (not that it will happen), the Unionists will have to persuade the English how much of a benefit Scotland is to the Union and how rich Scotland actually is. Paradoxically using the same arguments that the Yes campaign used, to KEEP Scotland.

J

[stokesmessiah]

Been reading this thread for a while now but not contributed before. Just really wanted to jump on and get people's opinions of how this is going to turn out now and also the process?

Personally, I am starting to th​ink we are going to end up with no deal and that is squarely on the shoulders of the tories who I think have been an absolute shambles throughout.

[lord bunberry]

Been reading this thread for a while now but not contributed before. Just really wanted to jump on and get people's opinions of how this is going to turn out now and also the process?

Personally, I am starting to th​ink we are going to end up with no deal and that is squarely on the shoulders of the tories who I think have been an absolute shambles throughout.

I’m also convinced there’s going to be a no deal. It will then go to a vote which will be rejected in the House of Commons. We’ll then be left in limbo as they argue about whether to have another vote.
It will be a complete mess imo.

[stokesmessiah]

I’m also convinced there’s going to be a no deal. It will then go to a vote which will be rejected in the House of Commons. We’ll then be left in limbo as they argue about whether to have another vote.
It will be a complete mess imo.

Yeah, that is where I am at too. There has been no direction on what we were doing from day 1 and that is really beginning to show.

What will Britain look like on its own outside of the EU? Will it be the apocalypse we are generally told it is going to be?

[Hibbyradge]

Yeah, that is where I am at too. There has been no direction on what we were doing from day 1 and that is really beginning to show.

What will Britain look like on its own outside of the EU? Will it be the apocalypse we are generally told it is going to be?

I don't know what it will look like, but I can't think how leaving would give a single benefit to us.

I really don't know what Johnston and Rees-Mogg see as the advantages of Brexit. Apart from personally, particularly in Johnson's case.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't know what it will look like, but I can't think how leaving would give a single benefit to us.

I really don't know what Johnston and Rees-Mogg see as the advantages of Brexit. Apart from personally, particularly in Johnson's case.

A lot of people will talk about it being Little Britain, Little Englander island mentality.

While that exists I think the reality is somewhat more prosaic. JRM and BJ are not unintelligent. They know fine well how much power and influence sits within the EU. I think the EU and the legislation and policy it has shaped has generally been a force for good for the UK, but if I was a UK politician I would recognise that I had a lot less power as a consequence of being in the EU. I would be happy with that, I think it’s in the common good but I can easily understand the ones who resent it. They came into politics to exercise power and make policy. The EU limits their ability to do so.

[Hibbyradge]

A lot of people will talk about it being Little Britain, Little Englander island mentality.

While that exists I think the reality is somewhat more prosaic. JRM and BJ are not unintelligent. They know fine well how much power and influence sits within the EU. I think the EU and the legislation and policy it has shaped has generally been a force for good for the UK, but if I was a UK politician I would recognise that I had a lot less power as a consequence of being in the EU. I would be happy with that, I think it’s in the common good but I can easily understand the ones who resent it. They came into politics to exercise power and make policy. The EU limits their ability to do so.

Yes, it's not about benefitting the UK populace, it's about getting more power for themselves.

To benefit themselves and their own political ideology.

Unfortunately, the same applies to Corbyn.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes, it's not about benefitting the UK populace, it's about getting more power for themselves.

To benefit themselves and their own political ideology.

Unfortunately, the same applies to Corbyn.

Agreed. My biggest issue with Corbyn is his anti-EU stance is based on his youth or younger years when there was an element within Labour that opposed the EEC because it was deemed to facilitate rampant capitalism.

The world moved on and while the EU certainly has encouraged market forces, it’s been with a social democratic mindset that comes naturally in Germany and France, whereas in the UK the two became mutually exclusive after the advent of Thatcher and Keith Joseph.

He’s trapped in a past that faded away a long time ago.

[RyeSloan]

Yes, it's not about benefitting the UK populace, it's about getting more power for themselves.

To benefit themselves and their own political ideology.

Unfortunately, the same applies to Corbyn.

But more power is what’s needed is it not?

I mean Scotland suffers (copyright R7) while we await those levers of power that are seemingly always just beyond the Scots grasp so it would appear more power is not always considered a bad thing by many people.

Anyway as for the recent q...I’m still very much in the comprehensive deal / huge fudge camp.

The EU will wait until the very last second (or beyond) to do the deal of course and the U.K. will almost surely be seen to ‘lose’ on at least one of the red lines but generally the deal will be acceptable to neither extreme of remain or leave which probably means a suitable compromise will, in general, be reached.

To some degree I’m still thinking that in 2-3 years most people will wonder what all the fuss was about and we’ll be carrying on our merry way regardless.

[Moulin Yarns]

But more power is what’s needed is it not?

I mean Scotland suffers (copyright R7) while we await those levers of power that are seemingly always just beyond the Scots grasp so it would appear more power is not always considered a bad thing by many people.

Anyway as for the recent q...I’m still very much in the comprehensive deal / huge fudge camp.

The EU will wait until the very last second (or beyond) to do the deal of course and the U.K. will almost surely be seen to ‘lose’ on at least one of the red lines but generally the deal will be acceptable to neither extreme of remain or leave which probably means a suitable compromise will, in general, be reached.

To some degree I’m still thinking that in 2-3 years most people will wonder what all the fuss was about and we’ll be carrying on our merry way regardless.

I think you have misunderstood.

It isn't the "taking back control" (copyright Boris) but individual powers, see the post he was replying to.


if I was a UK politician I would recognise that I had a lot less power as a consequence of being in the EU. I would be happy with that, I think it’s in the common good but I can easily understand the ones who resent it. They came into politics to exercise power and make policy. The EU limits their ability to do so

[Bangkok Hibby]

But more power is what’s needed is it not?

I mean Scotland suffers (copyright R7) while we await those levers of power that are seemingly always just beyond the Scots grasp so it would appear more power is not always considered a bad thing by many people.

Anyway as for the recent q...I’m still very much in the comprehensive deal / huge fudge camp.

The EU will wait until the very last second (or beyond) to do the deal of course and the U.K. will almost surely be seen to ‘lose’ on at least one of the red lines but generally the deal will be acceptable to neither extreme of remain or leave which probably means a suitable compromise will, in general, be reached.

To some degree I’m still thinking that in 2-3 years most people will wonder what all the fuss was about and we’ll be carrying on our merry way regardless.

In 2-3 years we'll be wondering why we voted for our hard fought workers rights to be handed back to the evil ones..Holiday entitlement, sick pay, TUPE protection etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

A lot of people will talk about it being Little Britain, Little Englander island mentality.

While that exists I think the reality is somewhat more prosaic. JRM and BJ are not unintelligent. They know fine well how much power and influence sits within the EU. I think the EU and the legislation and policy it has shaped has generally been a force for good for the UK, but if I was a UK politician I would recognise that I had a lot less power as a consequence of being in the EU. I would be happy with that, I think it’s in the common good but I can easily understand the ones who resent it. They came into politics to exercise power and make policy. The EU limits their ability to do so.

That's only because the UK has never really embraced the EU like other member states do. I'm struggling to think of another high profile UK politician other than Neil Kinnock who made a career in the EU. The only other UK politician who has made a name for himself in the rest of the EU is Farage but for all the wrong reasons.

[RyeSloan]

I think you have misunderstood.

It isn't the "taking back control" (copyright Boris) but individual powers, see the post he was replying to.

I’m not getting you...the post was about powers residing in the EU that limited U.K. policy makers when in office. I was merely pointing out that we see similar quotes from The Indy movement but about powers that reside with the U.K. there is definite parallels there.

[RyeSloan]

In 2-3 years we'll be wondering why we voted for our hard fought workers rights to be handed back to the evil ones..Holiday entitlement, sick pay, TUPE protection etc.

Who are the evil ones?

[makaveli1875]

In 2-3 years we'll be wondering why we voted for our hard fought workers rights to be handed back to the evil ones..Holiday entitlement, sick pay, TUPE protection etc.

Iv never had sick pay in my 20 years of working and we've been in the EU that whole time ...

[Callum_62]

Iv never had sick pay in my 20 years of working and we've been in the EU that whole time ...

Self employed?


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[makaveli1875]

Self employed?


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Nope , never been self employed . 6 years as a chef - no sick pay . 14 years as a tradesman - no sick pay .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's only because the UK has never really embraced the EU like other member states do. I'm struggling to think of another high profile UK politician other than Neil Kinnock who made a career in the EU. The only other UK politician who has made a name for himself in the rest of the EU is Farage but for all the wrong reasons.

I think maybe Chris Patten was a commissioner? But that only really reinforces your point.

Agree that Britain was never 100% in - I do genuinely think being an island has a big part to play in that.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Iv never had sick pay in my 20 years of working and we've been in the EU that whole time ...

But many do, and we know that these TYPE of hard fought rights, along with others I mentioned will be under attack

[RyeSloan]

But many do, and we know that these TYPE of hard fought rights, along with others I mentioned will be under attack

Under attack from the evil ones?

[Mibbes Aye]

That's only because the UK has never really embraced the EU like other member states do. I'm struggling to think of another high profile UK politician other than Neil Kinnock who made a career in the EU. The only other UK politician who has made a name for himself in the rest of the EU is Farage but for all the wrong reasons.

I think you’re right about a general unwillingness or lack of desire to embrace the EU as a political stage. There’s always been a bit of ‘close but not too close’ even amongst pro-Europeans, though that may reflect not wanting to be seen as totally committed because a good chunk of the population are anti, or wary at least.

Interestingly, Clegg was an MEP for a number of years before coming to Westminster and Mandelson was a commissioner. Both have their detractors as we know, but it’s hard to disagree that both were significant players in government over the last twenty years.

Apart from that I can only really think of George Robertson going to head up NATO. When Blair stepped down there was some talk of him going to the EU but that died a death when he got the Middle East role. I’m trying to remember what the chat was at the time and whether it was Brown or the Germans who made it clear it wasn’t happening. Maybe both.......

[Hibbyradge]

Nope , never been self employed . 6 years as a chef - no sick pay . 14 years as a tradesman - no sick pay .

You were entitled to it.

https://www.cipp.org.uk/news-publications/news/psprtetn.html

[Bangkok Hibby]

Under attack from the evil ones?

Indeed. I can hardly bring myself to type Tories but there you go

[Hibrandenburg]

I think maybe Chris Patten was a commissioner? But that only really reinforces your point.

Agree that Britain was never 100% in - I do genuinely think being an island has a big part to play in that.

Agree, the UK as a nation has always tried to take its way to the world. The island mentality crops up over a wide range of areas but is probably most obvious in our utterly abysmal and deserved reputation of not understanding our neighbour's languages and cultures.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you’re right about a general unwillingness or lack of desire to embrace the EU as a political stage. There’s always been a bit of ‘close but not too close’ even amongst pro-Europeans, though that may reflect not wanting to be seen as totally committed because a good chunk of the population are anti, or wary at least.

Interestingly, Clegg was an MEP for a number of years before coming to Westminster and Mandelson was a commissioner. Both have their detractors as we know, but it’s hard to disagree that both were significant players in government over the last twenty years.

Apart from that I can only really think of George Robertson going to head up NATO. When Blair stepped down there was some talk of him going to the EU but that died a death when he got the Middle East role. I’m trying to remember what the chat was at the time and whether it was Brown or the Germans who made it clear it wasn’t happening. Maybe both.......

Agree with pretty much all of that. I'd only add that if you asked most Europeans to name a significant UK MEP then I'm not sure any of them could come up with any other name than Farage.

[Mibbes Aye]

Agree with pretty much all of that. I'd only add that if you asked most Europeans to name a significant UK MEP then I'm not sure any of them could come up with any other name than Farage.

That would make sense, more’s the pity.

[ronaldo7]

Agree with pretty much all of that. I'd only add that if you asked most Europeans to name a significant UK MEP then I'm not sure any of them could come up with any other name than Farage.

David Martin (labour), and Alyn Smith (Snp) have been more involved (and I mean, involved) with the European Union, than Farage has ever been. The problems been the right wing in the UK, and I include the Bbc in this, promoting Farage and UKIP, beyond their capabilities, and their intolerance, towards immigration.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The Tories couldn't give flying for any deal whatsoever. They never have done, that's why a no deal Brexit will be the outcome. **** you Jimmy public, we're ok with our £millions.The speech doesn't even need writing " Despite our best efforts the United kingdom has failed to reach a trade agreement in principle with the EU "

I'm living in hope that this is the case as it's a big step closer to separation.

[Mr Grieves]

Iv never had sick pay in my 20 years of working and we've been in the EU that whole time ...

You ignoring the other things they mentioned? And you should be entitled to statutory sick pay?

[weecounty hibby]

Iv never had sick pay in my 20 years of working and we've been in the EU that whole time ...

You are 100% entitled to statutory sick pay. It may not be what you earn but you are due it if off sick
Edit. I see I was beaten to it. Not sure if you can backdate SSP but may be worth checking.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet Johan Lundgren (CEO of EasyJet) appears rather nonplussed by it all even calling Brexit ‘business as usual’ recently!

Suggesting affordable flights may become a thing of the past is just more scare mongering prior to you knowing any details of the agreements between the UK/EU on air travel.



Aww boo hoo for EasyJet...they have had to create an Austrian subsidiary to meet EU rules, should fit nicely with their UK and Swiss operations.

And does anyone really care if their pilots and staff are flying under UK or EU licences or if they need to be more creative in their rostering if UK staff are not allowed to be on OE registered planes? Clearly more overhead / hassle for EasyJet which may lower their earnings for a wee while but hardly the end of the competition in the ultra competitive world of low cost flights that would be needed to bring about your scenario of the demise of the affordable flight.

Easyjet have now informed all European crew that they will have to change all their licences to EU ones. The general consensus is now that we are heading for a hard Brexit and all that comes with it. The company are also reconsidering their stock market status. To comply with EU rules on business they will more than likely have to move at least half their stock to the EU market denying the UK Exchequer a sizable sum in revenue. You might not like easyjet and consider it no great loss to the UK but they will only be one of many to start moving jobs and finances out of the country to save their business.

[IGRIGI]

The scare stories have pushed me into supporting Brexit to be honest.

It's rather tiring watching/reading Nationalists who disregarded any negative about Scottish independence now batter the doomsday drum regarding Brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

The scare stories have pushed me into supporting Brexit to be honest.

It's rather tiring watching/reading Nationalists who disregarded any negative about Scottish independence now batter the doomsday drum regarding Brexit.

It's rather tiring continuously explaining to unionists that independence supporters see more benefit from having a hard border between Scotland and England than having one between Scotland and the rest of Europe.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's rather tiring continuously explaining to unionists that independence supporters see more benefit from having a hard border between Scotland and England than having one between Scotland and the rest of Europe.

True. But they are also quick to dismiss any story they didn't like as project fear. The two are a lot more similar than many like to admit.

[Hibbyradge]

The problem with people dismissing it as project fear is that there is is a total absence of project positive.

There was only lies, fake news and avoidance during the referendum from the leave campaign, and nothing has changed.

I've actually googled "benefits of Brexit" and found nothing.

No-one has been able to identify any European laws that they are desperate to lose and no-one has explained how we're going to stay as wealthy as we currently are, never mind get better off.

In fact, Johnson gave the game away when he said "****** business", when it was put to him that companies would suffer.

Supporting Brexit because you don't like the negative forecasts is about the stupidest reason for doing something I've heard, but at least it's a reason.

There are no others.

[Hibrandenburg]

The problem with people dismissing it as project fear is that there is is a total absence of project positive.

There was only lies, fake news and avoidance during the referendum from the leave campaign, and nothing has changed.

I've actually googled "benefits of Brexit" and found nothing.

No-one has been able to identify any European laws that they are desperate to lose and no-one has explained how we're going to stay as wealthy as we currently are, never mind get better off.

In fact, Johnson gave the game away when he said "****** business", when it was put to him that companies would suffer.

Supporting Brexit because you don't like the negative forecasts is about the stupidest reason for doing something I've heard, but at least it's a reason.

There are no others.

That about sums it up quite nicely. I'd only add that the campaign for independence had some genuine gripes.

Edit: I've just googled it myself and the standout positive result of Brexit would be "Europe running more smoothly without the awkward Brits". :faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

The scare stories have pushed me into supporting Brexit to be honest.

It's rather tiring watching/reading Nationalists who disregarded any negative about Scottish independence now batter the doomsday drum regarding Brexit.

You'll be supporting Brexit even more now that BMW have just announced the will close down their Oxford construction for at least a month on Brexit day.

[matty_f]

You'll be supporting Brexit even more now that BMW have just announced the will close down their Oxford construction for at least a month on Brexit day.
Project fear etc.

I'm still to hear a compelling good reason for coming out of the EU.

[Peevemor]

Project fear etc.

I'm still to hear a compelling good reason for coming out of the EU.

Blue passports. :agree:

[danhibees1875]

Project fear etc.

I'm still to hear a compelling good reason for coming out of the EU.

Being able to negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries such as US, Japan, China...

Full control over who gets into the country and where from, I think it's currently skewed to have a bias towards EU migrants.

Eliminate a layer of cost and beurocracy from decision making.

A step away from ending up being a one currency super union with differing political and economical needs.

The British fondness of queuing gets a boost at passport control.

I think they're the main pisitive reasons. Just trying to regurgitate from others to provide some sort of positives.

[Hibbyradge]

It'll boost UK tourism when sterling devalues as foreign travellers will come in their droves.

That's also great for UK hoteliers etc because they'll be able to increase prices as demand rises

Also great for the majority of UK citizens because we won't be able to afford to go abroad or have a staycation, so we can do something else with the cash instead.

As the economy shrinks, unemployment will rise and that's great news for businesses who will be able to lower wages. Good for civil servants too as Job Centre staff will have jobs for life again.

I'm sure there are more examples ...

[grunt]

This is what Brexit is all about.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Blue passports. :agree:

You mean the black ones from the 1970s? 😉

[RyeSloan]

You'll be supporting Brexit even more now that BMW have just announced the will close down their Oxford construction for at least a month on Brexit day.

They are brining forward their maintenance period as a precaution against a no deal Brexit. So same length of shut down just a different start date.

[Callum_62]

They are brining forward their maintenance period as a precaution against a no deal Brexit. So same length of shut down just a different start date.

Why do they need a precaution?


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[RyeSloan]

Why do they need a precaution?


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They say why in their press release statements.

[speedy_gonzales]

Why do they need a precaution?


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Potential supply chain issues?

[CropleyWasGod]

It'll boost UK tourism when sterling devalues as foreign travellers will come in their droves.

That's also great for UK hoteliers etc because they'll be able to increase prices as demand rises

Also great for the majority of UK citizens because we won't be able to afford to go abroad or have a staycation, so we can do something else with the cash instead.

As the economy shrinks, unemployment will rise and that's great news for businesses who will be able to lower wages. Good for civil servants too as Job Centre staff will have jobs for life again.

I'm sure there are more examples ...The Courts will be full of disaffected youth.

Huzzah for those employed in the justice system.

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[lord bunberry]

It'll boost UK tourism when sterling devalues as foreign travellers will come in their droves.

That's also great for UK hoteliers etc because they'll be able to increase prices as demand rises

Also great for the majority of UK citizens because we won't be able to afford to go abroad or have a staycation, so we can do something else with the cash instead.

As the economy shrinks, unemployment will rise and that's great news for businesses who will be able to lower wages. Good for civil servants too as Job Centre staff will have jobs for life again.

I'm sure there are more examples ...
Have you been living on the moon? Once the shackles of the EU are ripped away we’ll all be basking in the glow of more powerful hoovers. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

This is what Brexit is all about.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs.


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:agree: There are a few different strains of Brexiteer.

- old school British nationalists that can't stand the thought of Johnny Foreigner European having any say in Britain, eg. IDS, Rees-Mogg, David Davis and on the Labour side Kate Hoey, Frank Field.
- those who recognise that the Tory party's membership and parliamentary party is so infected with this pish that their ambitions depend on it. Boris the exemplar here, but Jeremy Hunts, Sajid Javid etc fit here too.
- those who want freed from the constraints of the EU's economic consensus, rabid low tax and no regulation Tories and unreconciled Stalinist lefties. So your Goves, Priti Patels, etc on the Tory side and Corbyn/McDonnell & co

The 3rd group are the danger and since, let's face it, it's going to be the Tories that have the power, heaven help us.

****.

[beensaidbefore]

This is what Brexit is all about.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs.


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Or a consequence of us not pulling together to get the best deal possible. The rest of Europe is in a far stronger position given we are all fighting amongst ourselves.

[beensaidbefore]

:agree: There are a few different strains of Brexiteer.

- old school British nationalists that can't stand the thought of Johnny Foreigner European having any say in Britain, eg. IDS, Rees-Mogg, David Davis and on the Labour side Kate Hoey, Frank Field.
- those who recognise that the Tory party's membership and parliamentary party is so infected with this pish that their ambitions depend on it. Boris the exemplar here, but Jeremy Hunts, Sajid Javid etc fit here too.
- those who want freed from the constraints of the EU's economic consensus, rabid low tax and no regulation Tories and unreconciled Stalinist lefties. So your Goves, Priti Patels, etc on the Tory side and Corbyn/McDonnell & co

The 3rd group are the danger and since, let's face it, it's going to be the Tories that have the power, heaven help us.

****.

Think you have missed a few off the list. The main one being controlling our own borders.

[JeMeSouviens]

Think you have missed a few off the list. The main one being controlling our own borders.

True, although the Brexit ideologues have never been that bothered about immigration. It was a big thing for UKIP, the Tory membership and a few Tories like May but not so much for Tory MPs in general. Although they absolutely realised it was a vote winner and flogged the hell out of it in the campaign they know Britain's economy needs it. So they will replace EU migrants with non-EU ones if push comes to shove.

[heretoday]

It'll be like 1972 again, except with mobile phones.

[JeMeSouviens]

More hints of what the *******s have in store ...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/liam-fox-trade-deal-scrap-european-union-food-standards-after-brexit-2018-9?r=US&IR=T

[Moulin Yarns]

The EU, "the checkers deal doesn't work"

Theresa May, "the checkers deal is the only deal on the table"

What a cluster fork!!!

[Hibbyradge]

The EU, "the checkers deal doesn't work"

Theresa May, "the checkers deal is the only deal on the table"

What a cluster fork!!!

Cheque.

:wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

This is a good write up of how May & co got themselves to where they are now.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/21/brexit-chequers-salzburg-irish-sea-customs-union