Brexit - what will happen next

[JeMeSouviens]

Bercow is in a battle royal!

... and absolutely loving it!

Voting now on Grieve amendment.

[JeMeSouviens]

Rebels win again - 308 to 297.

[Moulin Yarns]

Speaker John Bercow selects the new Grieve amendment!

(I knew he wouldn't let me down.) :wink:

Result of the vote

Aye 308

No 297


The government loses the amendment. If the Brexit vote goes against the Theresa May deal then the government must come back with an alternative plan in 3 days.

[Callum_62]

Wonder if shel delay the vote again....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

It's the hope that kills you ...

[Hibbyradge]

There's still a long way to go ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

[JeMeSouviens]

There's still a long way to go ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b62PRo8hKs

[hibsbollah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b62PRo8hKs

Yeah but just after that scene the good guys get a solid doing from the orcs.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah but just after that scene the good guys get a solid doing from the orcs.

Just a temporary setback :wink:

[hibsbollah]

Just a temporary setback :wink:

The object is to throw Theresa May's ring into a volcanic pit of lava. Sounds like a plan.

[Hibbyradge]

The object is to throw Theresa May's ring into a volcanic pit of lava. Sounds like a plan.

Nae need!

I'd started thinking about what to have for my tea, but I've suddenly lost my appetite.

[JeMeSouviens]

The object is to throw Theresa May's ring into a volcanic pit of lava. Sounds like a plan.

Maybe Jeremy could take a bite out of it?

(Have I taken that too far?)

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe Jeremy could take a bite out of it?

(Have I taken that too far?)

Oh man!

I just summed up the courage to come back to this thread after the horror of Bollah's post and now this. :bitchy:

The day was going so well too ...

[hibsbollah]

Maybe Jeremy could take a bite out of it?

(Have I taken that too far?)

Leave now. And never come back. #smeagol voice.

[hibsbollah]

I think I've finally found aTory MP I could socialise with;

From Politics Home...

At Theresa May’s Downing St drinks tonight to woo Tory MPs over her Brexit deal, Tracey Crouch talked about football for most of it and then left early to go to the gym. Maybe they should make her sports minister.

[BroxburnHibee]

She'll lose the vote then extend article 50. No time to do anything else.

New referendum looking more and more likely.

[Colr]

I think I've finally found aTory MP I could socialise with;

From Politics Home...

At Theresa May’s Downing St drinks tonight to woo Tory MPs over her Brexit deal, Tracey Crouch talked about football for most of it and then left early to go to the gym. Maybe they should make her sports minister.

She used to be but resigned on a point of principle!

She’s a Spurs fan

[JeMeSouviens]

She used to be but resigned on a point of principle!

She’s a Spurs fan

I thought that was hibsbollah's point. Maybe I've been reverse whooshed. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

V interesting piece from Paul Mason on what's going on in Labour and what they should do next:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/01/brexit-labour-must-let-its-members-decide-its-next-step

[hibsbollah]

V interesting piece from Paul Mason on what's going on in Labour and what they should do next:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/01/brexit-labour-must-let-its-members-decide-its-next-step

Yep, agree with all of that. I like Paul Mason.

[hibsbollah]

I thought that was hibsbollah's point. Maybe I've been reverse whooshed. :confused:

It was a quote lifted from Politics Home, I thought it was pretty funny, although im guessing they didnt actually know she used to be Sports Minister!

[Hibbyradge]

Yep, agree with all of that. I like Paul Mason.

:woohoo:

Genuine common ground at last! :greengrin

[The Modfather]

Yep, agree with all of that. I like Paul Mason.

Would rather hear Paul Mersons take on Brexit 😀

[hibsbollah]

:woohoo:

Genuine common ground at last! :greengrin


:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

[PeeJay]

:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

Surely the answer to this is that a qualified (supra-) majority is required - say 65-70% in favour one way or the other - most people I know here in Europe (sic) don't understand why this wasn't the case with the first referendum - after all the vote wasn't on whether a bypass should be built or not, was it? The whole country has to be in favour of a decision of this magnitude (or as much of it as reasonably possible) - difficult to push this through now though after the initial mistake has been made - who would accept it?

[RyeSloan]

:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

Ahh yes so the Leavers will be Gammons if they lose another referendum, what then has that made the but remainers since they lost the last Ref?

Maybe I’m misreading your post but you appear to be saying it’s absolutely OK to challenge the first ref because you were against its result but next time around if the leave vote loses they would be nothing more than Trumpesque tub thumpers...

And I don’t think they would need to ‘nurture’ a grievance that they weren’t listened to if Brexit is cancelled they would be 100% correct!

It’s not the people who voted Leave fault that the politicians have made such a pigs ear of doing so after all.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ahh yes so the Leavers will be Gammons if they lose another referendum, what then has that made the but remainers since they lost the last Ref?

Maybe I’m misreading your post but you appear to be saying it’s absolutely OK to challenge the first ref because you were against its result but next time around if the leave vote loses they would be nothing more than Trumpesque tub thumpers...

And I don’t think they would need to ‘nurture’ a grievance that they weren’t listened to if Brexit is cancelled they would be 100% correct!

It’s not the people who voted Leave fault that the politicians have made such a pigs ear of doing so after all.

Some Leavers are already nothing more than Trumpesque tub thumpers... Just look at what happened to Anna Soubry and the hard line 'Yellow vest' brigade starting to take to the streets

[Just Alf]

Ahh yes so the Leavers will be Gammons if they lose another referendum, what then has that made the but remainers since they lost the last Ref?

Maybe I’m misreading your post but you appear to be saying it’s absolutely OK to challenge the first ref because you were against its result but next time around if the leave vote loses they would be nothing more than Trumpesque tub thumpers...

And I don’t think they would need to ‘nurture’ a grievance that they weren’t listened to if Brexit is cancelled they would be 100% correct!

It’s not the people who voted Leave fault that the politicians have made such a pigs ear of doing so after all.I took it that if the vote was to be reversed then the "winners" would do well to learn the lessons of the 1st time around, Brexit looks to be failing precisely because they ignored the losers and pretended as if 100% of the population had voted leave.

If there is a turnaround then a lot of work needs to be done to review the current relationship with the EU



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Ahh yes so the Leavers will be Gammons if they lose another referendum, what then has that made the but remainers since they lost the last Ref?


I think one of the requirements of being a Gammon is that you are furiously unaware that you are one. So its hard to say. Im trying to think of a Remainer gammon. Anna Soubry and Ian Murray maybe.

[hibsbollah]

I took it that if the vote was to be reversed then the "winners" would do well to learn the lessons of the 1st time around, Brexit looks to be failing precisely because they ignored the losers and pretended as if 100% of the population had voted leave.

If there is a turnaround then a lot of work needs to be done to review the current relationship with the EU



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

You read my post accurately:aok:

[Jack]

:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

If it was up to me I'd say that the result of the second referendum was that the voters were better informed on what Brexit actually was therefore the remain vote was valid.

I'd also line up all the still leave voters and shoot them!

If the vote was the same as the last one, Scotland remain, rUk to leave, Scotland should declare UDI.







Maybe shooting all the leave voters was a step to far. Maybe just round then up, take them to Wales and allow Wales to leave on its own.

[JeMeSouviens]

I took it that if the vote was to be reversed then the "winners" would do well to learn the lessons of the 1st time around, Brexit looks to be failing precisely because they ignored the losers and pretended as if 100% of the population had voted leave.

If there is a turnaround then a lot of work needs to be done to review the current relationship with the EU



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The bit in bold actually understates it, it's more like pretended 100% voted for the hard end of the Brexit spectrum. Mind you, the Tories are captive to their membership, who *are* (pretty much) 100% at the hard end of the Brexit spectrum.

I'm not sure we can really review the current relationship with the EU that much. It's basically a collection of international treaties, you can't just unilaterally change them. We can start to attempt to build a consensus for reform but I'm far from convinced we could get a consensus about what we want let alone what the rest of the EU would get behind.

[heretoday]

If we did have a second referendum would the results be binding on the government? Or would we have to have a "best of three"?
That's assuming Remain wins no 2 which is by no means guaranteed.
I'd imagine most Leave voters would be so enraged at having to go again they'd be even more determined in their views. And quite a lot of Remainers would think it a bit rich that the establishment was asking us all to "get it right this time".
A lot hangs on whether a significant number of us are better informed about the EU now than we were in 2016 and would like the chance to change our vote i.e. to Remain.
I'm not sure that is the case. I'm certainly better informed about one thing. Our politicians have no idea what they are doing.

[Ozyhibby]

I think if there is another vote then the type of leave we are asked to vote on should be on the ballot paper.
If it’s a hard brexit then say so.
Many were seduced by the thought that we would have an amazing trade deal while getting rid of the democratic deficit that exists with the EU. That no longer exists and it should be made clear what we are voting on next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

Yes, it's an absolute Shambles and the future looks uncertain regardless of what happens in March.

For the parties, there are any number of possibilities.

Either Labour or the Tories could split depending on what happens.

If Labour get it right, and keep us in the EU, they stand to benefit enormously.

The Libdems could be huge winners if Labour blow their chance and go down the Lexit route.

UKIP might strengthen again, mostly at the expense of the Tories, and that could lead to a Labour majority.

I think there would be a rise in the organised right, but it would be a temporary threat.

Lessons would have to be learned from the Scottish referendum and the way that galvanised the SNP vote in the following GE.

And, regardless of which party was in power, the problem of people feeling disenfranchised and left behind would have to be addressed. No, not addressed, solved.

Clearly, the Labour Party with a radical programme would be the obvious choice. I find that an exciting prospect.

But here's the rub, if Labour press on with Brexit, they'll lose my support, possibly for ever.

And then there's Scotland. If Labour saves the day, their support will increase again. Get it wrong and Independence is almost a certainty.

I'm just rambling and typing my thoughts as I have them. I have no solutions.

However, the right wing aren't going to just go away again if we leave the EU. Whatever happens, they're getting stronger and their voices are louder.

They might be angrier if we don't leave, but I'd rather face them from within the EU than if we were isolated out of it.

[JeMeSouviens]

:greengrin

But if you are a Remain supporter like you and I, or a Remain supporting politician, there is a question you need to ask yourself. (and i havent seen it discussed much);

Assuming a new referendum takes place, and assuming the result is different this time round, say 55-45 for Remain, and Brexit in its current form gets stopped or delayed, How are you going to reflect the views of the 45%? The 45% that was 52% in 2016? It would be nice, as a Remainer, to pretend this worldview does not exist, and shut it out or ignore it. You could say, its easy, there are new realities now, the new result supercedes the old result, game over. But I dont think there are going to be any easy answers for UK politicians from this point on. The Leavers arent going to roll over and accept they are misguided. Theyre going to get even more gammon flavoured. Nurture a grievance that theyve not been listened to. Probably get a lot more like Trump, or reactionary tubthumpers like the DUP. The March of the Gammons:no way:

It's not one universal worldview though, is it?

The Leavers who perceive immigrants are taking their jobs and getting preferential treatment in housing and so on are not the same as the Leavers who think Britain should be buccaneering off around the world doing swashbuckling trade deals or the Leavers who perceive the EU as a capitalist club that's foiling the revolution.

I think the absolute worst thing we could do is appease the Gammons and pretend we can Remain but toughen up on immigration and get the EU to reform the FoM rules. The message from the Remain side in ref#1, particularly Cameron and ******** Tories was that immigration is a downside that's worth putting up with. We absolutely need to tackle the perception that immigration in general and FoM in particular are negative things head on:

- FoM is a benefit for us - and not just for the young who'd live and work abroad, loads aspire to retire abroad in better climates, for example.
- sell the positives, eg. NHS will grind to a halt without staff
- level on the alternatives, there will still be just as many immigrants, just from different places. What do you think India will want as the price of a trade deal?

I also think in a ref#2 where the Leave side is TM and the Tory govt, Remain has a real opportunity to be the side that benefits from people fed up with austerity and Tories in general.

[JeMeSouviens]

If we did have a second referendum would the results be binding on the government? Or would we have to have a "best of three"?
That's assuming Remain wins no 2 which is by no means guaranteed.
I'd imagine most Leave voters would be so enraged at having to go again they'd be even more determined in their views. And quite a lot of Remainers would think it a bit rich that the establishment was asking us all to "get it right this time".
A lot hangs on whether a significant number of us are better informed about the EU now than we were in 2016 and would like the chance to change our vote i.e. to Remain.
I'm not sure that is the case. I'm certainly better informed about one thing. Our politicians have no idea what they are doing.

Apart from folk switching sides, there are also:

- another 3 years' worth of young voters added to the roll, overwhelmingly pro-EU
- a bunch of "meh" Remainers who thought the ref#1 was a foregone conclusion and didn't bother to vote. Motivation will be higher this time.

I think any new Ref has to be on concrete outcomes: No deal, TM's deal, Norway+, Remain. If people know exactly what they'll get then the result has more force I think. Personally I think it should just be TM's deal (the negotiated outcome of the mandate from ref#1) vs Remain (the status quo).

It's like if you tried to delete everything on your hard drive. You will be asked "Are you sure (Y/N)?".

[Hibrandenburg]

A second referendum will only prolong the madness indefinitely. The only way to move on is a hard Brexit. Once the harsh reality of post Brexit Britain is hammered home to Brexiteers then maybe they'll finally understand the consequences, then it's cap in hand time.

[JeMeSouviens]

A second referendum will only prolong the madness indefinitely. The only way to move on is a hard Brexit. Once the harsh reality of post Brexit Britain is hammered home to Brexiteers then maybe they'll finally understand the consequences, then it's cap in hand time.

The hard Brexiteers won't ever understand that. It'll always be because Remoaners were in charge, or immigrants deliberately queued up their lorries, or the EU were mean to us ... :rolleyes:

[heretoday]

A second referendum will only prolong the madness indefinitely. The only way to move on is a hard Brexit. Once the harsh reality of post Brexit Britain is hammered home to Brexiteers then maybe they'll finally understand the consequences, then it's cap in hand time.

Yeah. After several years of discomfort we'll be chapping on the EU door to be allowed back in.

There is always the possibility that it could be a success of course. Indeed, other countries may move to follow our example. Who can say?

It's all speculation isn't it?

[Moulin Yarns]

Blimey is all I can say.


https://twitter.com/GaryGibbonBlog/status/1083395948347240448?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

Some sense in the middle of the Theresa Mayhem

https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1083405802487066624?s=19

[beensaidbefore]

Every politician has a part to play in this mess. Having someone leading the negotiations who doesn't believe in the principle is simply bonkers. The fact that people in this country are doing all they can to make sure we get a ***** deal is a disgrace.

[danhibees1875]

I think if there is another vote then the type of leave we are asked to vote on should be on the ballot paper.
If it’s a hard brexit then say so.
Many were seduced by the thought that we would have an amazing trade deal while getting rid of the democratic deficit that exists with the EU. That no longer exists and it should be made clear what we are voting on next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what I think might end up happening. The vote on the deal will lose, the government won't have a second option prepared within the time frame after failing to get any concessions from Europe and we'll then have a "no deal or no Brexit" referendum.

What happens afterwards is anyone's guess, but I can't see it being amicable regardless. In fact, the only positive I can think of in favour of Brexit is that the only way out of this mess would be to try it and it actually working out okay.

[grunt]

The fact that people in this country are doing all they can to make sure we get a ***** deal is a disgrace.
Perhaps a ***** deal is all that's available.

[beensaidbefore]

Perhaps a ***** deal is all that's available.

If we had pulled together from the start I think we would have been in a far better position now. If my auntie and all that, but I'm just saddened by the whole thing. It seems that party politics and point scoring is more important than getting our heads together and doing the best for everyone.

[grunt]

If we had pulled together from the start I think we would have been in a far better position now.
There's no way I'm going to lift a finger to assist the country commit economic suicide.

[cabbageandribs1875]

What are the chances of Labour making ground in Scotland against the SNP given their stance on Brexit and general performance?



SCOTTISH Labour will be wiped out at the next election if Jeremy Corbyn (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Jeremy+Corbyn&topic_id=9010)fails to oppose Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Brexit&topic_id=8997), a new poll has revealed.
50 comments (https://www.thenational.scot/news/17343657.scottish-labour-facing-post-brexit-election-wipeout/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR0yFhoGZvkKgkMMY0-RCLjslRdVjBAzCavUzz6YEL0RfMhWhKJe2yCRd6s#comments-anchor)
The YouGov survey of 2196 Scots, carried out for the People’s Vote campaign, suggests support for Richard Leonard and colleagues would plummet to just 15%, with a quarter of Labour voters switching to the SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=SNP&topic_id=9019).
One Labour MP described the shock news as a “real wake up call” for Corbyn.
The poll, carried out as part of a UK-wide survey of 25000 people, found that currently, the SNP have the support of 40% of voters, while the Tories are on 25%, Labour on 21% and the LibDems (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=LibDems&topic_id=9011) on 8%.
But the poll suggested that if Labour voted “with the Tories to bring about Brexit,” their share of the vote would slump 6 points to 15%, 28 points behind the SNP, who would move up to 43%, And even if Corbyn gives his MPs a free vote on Theresa May (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Theresa+May&topic_id=9022)’s Brexit deal, support would still collapse to around 16%.
In both situations the Tory vote share remains roughly the same.
Labour’s Ged Killen, who narrowly won Rutherglen and Hamilton West from the SNP in 2017, said his party would be punished if they failed to oppose Brexit: “This poll is a real wake-up call for the Labour leadership and is a warning not to appease the Government (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Government&topic_id=9004) over Brexit.



personally, i'm disgusted Slab would even get in to double figures

[Hibbyradge]

SCOTTISH Labour will be wiped out at the next election if Jeremy Corbyn (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Jeremy+Corbyn&topic_id=9010)fails to oppose Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Brexit&topic_id=8997), a new poll has revealed.
50 comments (https://www.thenational.scot/news/17343657.scottish-labour-facing-post-brexit-election-wipeout/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR0yFhoGZvkKgkMMY0-RCLjslRdVjBAzCavUzz6YEL0RfMhWhKJe2yCRd6s#comments-anchor)
The YouGov survey of 2196 Scots, carried out for the People’s Vote campaign, suggests support for Richard Leonard and colleagues would plummet to just 15%, with a quarter of Labour voters switching to the SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=SNP&topic_id=9019).
One Labour MP described the shock news as a “real wake up call” for Corbyn.
The poll, carried out as part of a UK-wide survey of 25000 people, found that currently, the SNP have the support of 40% of voters, while the Tories are on 25%, Labour on 21% and the LibDems (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=LibDems&topic_id=9011) on 8%.
But the poll suggested that if Labour voted “with the Tories to bring about Brexit,” their share of the vote would slump 6 points to 15%, 28 points behind the SNP, who would move up to 43%, And even if Corbyn gives his MPs a free vote on Theresa May (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Theresa+May&topic_id=9022)’s Brexit deal, support would still collapse to around 16%.
In both situations the Tory vote share remains roughly the same.
Labour’s Ged Killen, who narrowly won Rutherglen and Hamilton West from the SNP in 2017, said his party would be punished if they failed to oppose Brexit: “This poll is a real wake-up call for the Labour leadership and is a warning not to appease the Government (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Government&topic_id=9004) over Brexit.



personally, i'm disgusted Slab would even get in to double figures






I can't comment on the precise figures, but it seems clear that Labour will suffer a heavy loss of support, and not just in Scotland, if they don't oppose Brexit.

I can't imagine that the party will allow that to happen.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I can't comment on the precise figures, but it seems clear that Labour will suffer a heavy loss of support, and not just in Scotland, if they don't oppose Brexit.

I can't imagine that the party will allow that to happen.

Vacancy:

Political party desperately seeks leader.
The successful candidate will not only be the leader of the opposition, he/she will also act on what the large majority of party members want etc etc.

[Ozyhibby]

Get a new leader (Yvette Cooper?), oppose brexit and offer to revoke article 50 and labour wins a landslide victory in GE.
Don’t and suffer a humiliating defeat to this Tory govt.
Seems mad that they are going for the latter but that’s the Labour Party. Happy in opposition.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

SCOTTISH Labour will be wiped out at the next election if Jeremy Corbyn (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Jeremy+Corbyn&topic_id=9010)fails to oppose Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Brexit&topic_id=8997), a new poll has revealed.
50 comments (https://www.thenational.scot/news/17343657.scottish-labour-facing-post-brexit-election-wipeout/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR0yFhoGZvkKgkMMY0-RCLjslRdVjBAzCavUzz6YEL0RfMhWhKJe2yCRd6s#comments-anchor)
The YouGov survey of 2196 Scots, carried out for the People’s Vote campaign, suggests support for Richard Leonard and colleagues would plummet to just 15%, with a quarter of Labour voters switching to the SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=SNP&topic_id=9019).
One Labour MP described the shock news as a “real wake up call” for Corbyn.
The poll, carried out as part of a UK-wide survey of 25000 people, found that currently, the SNP have the support of 40% of voters, while the Tories are on 25%, Labour on 21% and the LibDems (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=LibDems&topic_id=9011) on 8%.
But the poll suggested that if Labour voted “with the Tories to bring about Brexit,” their share of the vote would slump 6 points to 15%, 28 points behind the SNP, who would move up to 43%, And even if Corbyn gives his MPs a free vote on Theresa May (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Theresa+May&topic_id=9022)’s Brexit deal, support would still collapse to around 16%.
In both situations the Tory vote share remains roughly the same.
Labour’s Ged Killen, who narrowly won Rutherglen and Hamilton West from the SNP in 2017, said his party would be punished if they failed to oppose Brexit: “This poll is a real wake-up call for the Labour leadership and is a warning not to appease the Government (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Government&topic_id=9004) over Brexit.



personally, i'm disgusted Slab would even get in to double figures






Why would Labour pander to a couple of seats in Scotland when there's more to lose in England if they do so?

[1875godsgift]

Why would Labour pander to a couple of seats in Scotland when there's more to lose in England if they do so?

Because if Scotland gains Independence they lose their traditional Scottish power base in parliament forever?

[Curried]

Because if Scotland gains Independence they lose their traditional Scottish power base in parliament forever?

So what? Regardless of which partly holds the majority in Scotland it makes no meaningful difference to the outcome at Westminster.
This is arguably the most important reason why Scotland should be free to make its own decisions - like most normal countries.

[Bristolhibby]

Because if Scotland gains Independence they lose their traditional Scottish power base in parliament forever?

Labour need to plan not to have Scottish MPS anyway.

They only have 7 out of 59 MPs. In 2015 they had 1!

J

[McSwanky]

Blimey is all I can say.


https://twitter.com/GaryGibbonBlog/status/1083395948347240448?s=19

This, for me, is another big sign that the traditional Tory vs Labour political divide is becoming less and less relevant to the British people. It won't surprise me at all if both of those parties break up and new, more relevant, blocs form over the next decade.

[Moulin Yarns]

And now they have cancelled pancake day.

[JeMeSouviens]

As for that self-styled Frodo, David Cameron, we are still unable to quantify how wrong his plan to destroy the ring has gone, other than to say the Shire is now primarily a vast Orc brothel.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/11/brexit-britain-john-bercow-car-sticker

[JimBHibees]

If we had pulled together from the start I think we would have been in a far better position now. If my auntie and all that, but I'm just saddened by the whole thing. It seems that party politics and point scoring is more important than getting our heads together and doing the best for everyone.

How would that have made any difference? Government with a miniscule majority backed by DUP, there was alwaus going to be huge scrutiny on the deal she came back with.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/11/brexit-britain-john-bercow-car-sticker

I can't believe Marina Hyde has stolen my thing of making Brexit into Tolkein metaphors :grr: ****in' plagiarism

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't believe Marina Hyde has stolen my thing of making Brexit into Tolkein metaphors :grr: ****in' plagiarism

Wonder what her username is?

ltgf!

[Ozyhibby]

Yes your type underneath their surface are all about rounding up the perceived outsiders or anyone who doesn't agree with you should be rounded up and expelled.

How very progressive and inclusive off you.

We reach out to our yellow vest brothers and sisters in France and across Europe! Mon the European spring!

Viva La vest!!!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who pays into a Pention? :wink:

Some getting arrested now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46849939

[Slavers]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They need a wee bit help with their marketing I'll give you that!

[grunt]

They need a wee bit help with their marketing I'll give you that!

And their spelling.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's hard to get any more populist than that. :faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

They need a wee bit help with their marketing I'll give you that!

I can't disagree with that. Your pals need to be educated, that's obvious. Where was it printed? Need a better proof reader.

[Future17]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The highlight of that for me is "fake laws". :-)

[Slavers]

I can't disagree with that. Your pals need to be educated, that's obvious. Where was it printed? Need a better proof reader.

I dinnae Ken where it was printed. How do I Ken that it was not you or one of your pals who done it to try and dirty the vests image in public?

[GlesgaeHibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/06d905d1ffa53f36fc0575c4b624b3d1.jpg

Some of the things these yellow vest brothers of yours stand for are really quite disgusting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow.

Somebody needs to teach them the difference between for and against :faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

I dinnae Ken where it was printed. How do I Ken that it was not you or one of your pals who done it to try and dirty the vests image in public?

I'll give you the usual gammon answer that they like to use when their lies are exposed.

"But it's the kind of thing yous would do/say".

[Moulin Yarns]

I dinnae Ken where it was printed. How do I Ken that it was not you or one of your pals who done it to try and dirty the vests image in public?

That will be number 19 on your list. :wink:

[grunt]

How do I Ken that it was not you or one of your pals who done it to try and dirty the vests image in public?
I think they hardly need any help on that front, they manage that very well themselves.

[matty_f]

I dinnae Ken where it was printed. How do I Ken that it was not you or one of your pals who done it to try and dirty the vests image in public?

Wow.

[Slavers]

Wow.

People have been saying that to me all my life!

[Ozyhibby]

People have been saying that to me all my life!

I don’t doubt it.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

37%.... The percentage of the population that voted leave (in its various forms).... How is having a 2nd referendum on the actual deal non-democratic?



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

People have been saying that to me all my life!
That's the first one of your posts that I've believed. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Who'd have thought it. The right honourable, sir Edward Leigh, is now voting for Theresa Mays deal, after being a euro sceptic for 40 years, he's now seen the light.

He was made a privy councillor, only a couple of weeks ago.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's the first one of your posts that I've believed. :greengrin

If only I could add a smiley

[Hibbyradge]

If only I could add a smiley

: greengrin :

Without the spaces.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yet another clanger from the Maybot in extracts of her speech for today released early:


When the people of Wales voted by a margin of 0.3%, on a turnout of just over 50%, to endorse the creation of the Welsh assembly, that result was accepted by both sides and the popular legitimacy of that institution has never seriously been questioned ...

Imagine if an anti-devolution House of Commons had said to the people of Scotland or Wales that despite voting in favour of a devolved legislature, parliament knew better and would over-rule them. Or else force them to vote again.

Guess which party opposed the creation of the Welsh Assembly because they said the result didn't represent a sufficient mandate? Guess which backbench Tory MP for Maidenhead voted against its creation in the House of Commons *after the referendum*? And guess which party was advocating a 2nd referendum to abolish the Welsh Assembly as late as 2005?

You couldn't make this stuff up. :rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

Yet another clanger from the Maybot in extracts of her speech for today released early:



Guess which party opposed the creation of the Welsh Assembly because they said the result didn't represent a sufficient mandate? Guess which backbench Tory MP for Maidenhead voted against its creation in the House of Commons *after the referendum*? And guess which party was advocating a 2nd referendum to abolish the Welsh Assembly as late as 2005?

You couldn't make this stuff up. :rolleyes:

Unbelievable isn’t it?

J

[Since90+2]

Unbelievable isn’t it?

J

Other MPs who voted against the creation of the assembly after the referendum include Iain Duncan Smith , David Davis ,Liam Fox and John Redwood.

So they are happy to go on about the "will of the people" when it suits them but seek to overturn a referendum result when they don't like the result.

[JeMeSouviens]

First resignation of the week in - a Tory whip who's a Brexiteer and wants to vote against the deal.

Suspect we could be in for dozens by this time on Wednesday. :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

That May stuff on Wales is pretty damning.

Just as well there isn't another party leader in favour of Brexit going around pretending not to be.

Or another one claiming to be pro-European apart from when they were threatening to remove the rights of European citizens if they didn't get what they wanted from the EU post independence.

They are currently all, without exception, crap.

Populism has taken hold like political rabies and and is relentlessly corroding everything. Putin must be laughing his ar5e off.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/fe5c42341ab12792ad188367c13d0247.jpg
This is how the vote is expected to go tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

Other MPs who voted against the creation of the assembly after the referendum include Iain Duncan Smith , David Davis ,Liam Fox and John Redwood.

So they are happy to go on about the "will of the people" when it suits them but seek to overturn a referendum result when they don't like the result.The "will of the people"

I always have a wry smile when they say that... 37% of the population voted for leave in its various forms so if they really believed in the will of the people they'd offer all the people that referendum so they can decide if they still want to leave (or still can't be bothered voting etc) knowing what they know now, including the leave deal that's apparently all thats achievable.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Jack Hackett]

That May stuff on Wales is pretty damning.

Just as well there isn't another party leader in favour of Brexit going around pretending not to be.

Or another one claiming to be pro-European apart from when they were threatening to remove the rights of European citizens if they didn't get what they wanted from the EU post independence.

They are currently all, without exception, crap.

Populism has taken hold like political rabies and and is relentlessly corroding everything. Putin must be laughing his ar5e off.

:agree:

Immediately thought of this when I read that :greengrin


https://youtu.be/1tYAiLW0IwA

[GlesgaeHibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/fe5c42341ab12792ad188367c13d0247.jpg
This is how the vote is expected to go tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fingers crossed the defeat is of that scale. Deserves all she gets.

[Bristolhibby]

:agree:

Immediately thought of this when I read that :greengrin


https://youtu.be/1tYAiLW0IwA

Who needs a Cold War, when you can destabilise countries through their electoral systems.

Enemies are too busy arguing amongst themselves to oppose you. A smart strategy that doesn’t cost a single Russian life.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Lab sources telling journos that confidence vote will be tabled tomorrow if May loses big.

[Moulin Yarns]

European MEPs ask us to reconsider Brexit


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-meps-european-parliament-final-say-peoples-vote-second-referendum-a8723066.html

[JeMeSouviens]

House of Lords “regrets” the deal and “emphatically rejects” no deal by 321 - 152.

No legal effect.

[JeMeSouviens]

Record for government defeat in a whipped vote is 166, from 1924. Can May break this record? :cb

[James310]

Record for government defeat in a whipped vote is 166, from 1924. Can May break this record? :cb

I reckon it could be over 200.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/17c2ed48d64817871fe411a7d4c9f07b.jpg
It’s getting worse for May.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Strange mix of Brexit and football here https://www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk/uncategorized/mps-do-your-duty/

[lapsedhibee]

Strange mix of Brexit and football here https://www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk/uncategorized/mps-do-your-duty/

Never take football club statements seriously if they're full of grocers' apostrophes. Even The Flat Slug at Level 5 doesn't do that.

[Callum_62]

If they numbers are anywhere near accurate What an absolute waste of time pulling the original vote


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

So I think I've got it; at 7pm four amendments get voted on; Labour amendment (saying the deals crap because of employees rights and customs union), SNP/PC amendment (saying it's crap because it's crap for Scotland Wales) and two daft Tory amendments, one wet one gammon, neither of which the EU will ever accept on the backstop. If any of the first 4 win a majority, all the remaining amendments get shelved and we go straight to a vote on Mays deal.

[steakbake]

So I think I've got it; at 7pm four amendments get voted on; Labour amendment (saying the deals crap because of employees rights and customs union), SNP/PC amendment (saying it's crap because it's crap for Scotland Wales) and two daft Tory amendments, one wet one gammon, neither of which the EU will ever accept on the backstop. If any of the first 4 win a majority, all the remaining amendments get shelved and we go straight to a vote on Mays deal.

Pretty much.

Then she'll lose the vote by over 200 and whatever happens next is really anyone's guess...

[JeMeSouviens]

So I think I've got it; at 7pm four amendments get voted on; Labour amendment (saying the deals crap because of employees rights and customs union), SNP/PC amendment (saying it's crap because it's crap for Scotland Wales) and two daft Tory amendments, one wet one gammon, neither of which the EU will ever accept on the backstop. If any of the first 4 win a majority, all the remaining amendments get shelved and we go straight to a vote on Mays deal.

My reading is:

If (1) or (2) passed then there would be no further votes. No hope of either passing though.

If (3) passes there will be no vote on (4), but either (3) or (4) passing will not stop the main vote on the motion (amended).

[bingo70]

What happens after tonight's vote then?

No deal Brexit, A new 'peoples' vote, general election or the whole Brexit idea gets binned?

Is that all the possibilities?

[JeMeSouviens]

Pretty much.

Then she'll lose the vote by over 200 and whatever happens next is really anyone's guess...

About the only thing you can guarantee with May is that she'll soldier on regardless. Her middle name should be changed to "Untenable".

[JeMeSouviens]

What happens after tonight's vote then?

No deal Brexit, A new 'peoples' vote, general election or the whole Brexit idea gets binned?

Is that all the possibilities?

Or the deal is reheated and brought back in a couple of weeks time with the WA unchanged and a new PD leading towards a permanent CU (Corbyn would probably back that) or Norway or, knowing May, probably with the PD unchanged as well. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

My reading is:

If (1) or (2) passed then there would be no further votes. No hope of either passing though.

If (3) passes there will be no vote on (4), but either (3) or (4) passing will not stop the main vote on the motion (amended).

Ah that's right, the final two amendments won't affect the material outcome of Mays vote.

[hibsbollah]

Reading the Corbyn amendment, it seems identical to the Hilary Benn one which was shelved for tactical reasons a few days ago:confused:

[grunt]

EXPLAINED: The Brexit amendments MPs are set to vote on tonight and what they all mean

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/101119/explained-brexit-amendments-mps-are-set-vote-tonight-and

[hibsbollah]

EXPLAINED: The Brexit amendments MPs are set to vote on tonight and what they all mean

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/101119/explained-brexit-amendments-mps-are-set-vote-tonight-and

The Baron amendment is primary school stuff. Pretending the Norn Ireland headache doesn't exist.

[WhileTheChief..]

What happens after tonight's vote then?

No deal Brexit, A new 'peoples' vote, general election or the whole Brexit idea gets binned?

Is that all the possibilities?

I don’t know for sure but I’d have thought we go straight to a no deal exit on March 29.

In fact, that’s surely what must happen? Unless of course we just ignore the vote and kick things into touch.

The referendum didn’t ask if we wanted a hard or soft Brexit or anything else. It asked only if we should leave or remain and the country voted as it did.

We should leave with no deal on March 29.

My gut reaction however is that May will step down, another Tory leader contest is held followed by another general election.

We’ll then be in the same boat again as neither of the two main parties have a stance on the question, they’re both split on it.

Eventually things will get postponed and life will go on with us arguing about leaving or remaining for the next 10 years plus.

[lapsedhibee]

Or the deal is reheated and brought back in a couple of weeks time with the WA unchanged and a new PD leading towards a permanent CU (Corbyn would probably back that) or Norway or, knowing May, probably with the PD unchanged as well. :rolleyes:

Typical Leaver behaviour. Keep rerunning a vote until they get the answer they want.

[hibsbollah]

Vote simulator on the guardian website was fun. I predict a 225 vote landslide against the deal.

[grunt]

We should leave with no deal on March 29. I don't understand how anyone can say this with a straight face.

[Jack Hackett]

This deserves a watch


https://youtu.be/9fx9DdxiB3k

[WhileTheChief..]

I don't understand how anyone can say this with a straight face.

You don’t need to.

Just the way I see it. On a subject as big and diverse as this you’re going to come across many different views.

I hardly agree with anything being said on this thread but I enjoy reading different points of view.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Vote simulator on the guardian website was fun. I predict a 225 vote landslide against the deal.

Whips now trying to get Tories who will be voting against the deal to abstain, so it may not quite be a landslide of that scale.

Mind you, I can't imagine constituents being very forgiving of any MP that chooses to abstain on such a crucial vote.

[Callum_62]

Whips now trying to get Tories who will be voting against the deal to abstain, so it may not quite be a landslide of that scale.

Mind you, I can't imagine constituents being very forgiving of any MP that chooses to abstain on such a crucial vote.

Politics eh, absolutely schoolboy stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Mind you, I can't imagine constituents being very forgiving of any MP that chooses to abstain on such a crucial vote.
There doesn't seem to be any accountability in modern UK politics. MPs seem to be able to say what they like, lie, whatever, and there's no comeback on them. With both of the two main parties both pro-Brexit, the two party system seems broken in the UK.

[GlesgaeHibby]

There doesn't seem to be any accountability in modern UK politics. MPs seem to be able to say what they like, lie, whatever, and there's no comeback on them. With both of the two main parties both pro-Brexit, the two party system seems broken in the UK.

Agree, although Labour are playing a dangerous game given all the polls suggest they will get crucified if they don't oppose Brexit.

[grunt]

Agree, although Labour are playing a dangerous game given all the polls suggest they will get crucified if they don't oppose Brexit.
Who is your English Remain voter going to vote for? Lib Dem? I doubt it. These Remain voters have nowhere to go unless one of the big two parties change their position on Brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

Agree, although Labour are playing a dangerous game given all the polls suggest they will get crucified if they don't oppose Brexit.

They are gambling that their voters have nowhere else to go. To some extent in an fptp system that's true, but I think they're missing that their voters might just stay at home.

[Hibernia&Alba]

No deal Brexit looks a certainty now, which is what the Eurosceptic hardliners in the Tory Party have wanted all along. The only way that looks avoidable is to postpone the departure date, but May has given herself no room for manoeuvre by promising Brexit will happen March 29th come what may. There isn't time to put forward a different departure plan, should tonight's vote go against the government, which seems certain.

[grunt]

No deal Brexit looks a certainty now, which is what the Eurosceptic hardliners in the Tory Party have wanted all along. The only way that looks avoidable is to postpone the departure date, but May has given herself no room for manoeuvre by promising Brexit will happen March 29th come what may. There isn't time to put forward a different departure plan, should tonight's vote go against the government, which seems certain.Parliament will not allow this to happen.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Parliament will not allow this to happen.

But there is no consensus for any form of Brexit and no time to re-negotiate anything (not that the EU will offer anything more) once tonight's deal is rejected.

[grunt]

But there is no consensus for any form of Brexit and no time to re-negotiate anything (not that the EU will offer anything more) once tonight's deal is rejected.No sane MP (I know) will allow the UK to crash out of the EU without a deal, and nor will the EU. The deadline will be extended.

(Fingers crossed!!!)

[RyeSloan]

I don't understand how anyone can say this with a straight face.

Why not?

The vote was to leave, the politicians have been unable to come up with a ‘deal’ on what that looks like so the default is to leave with no deal.

Hardly anyone’s preferred outcome but it at least supports the basic tenant of the original vote which was of course to leave!

A few twists and turns for this sorry saga still to go though so what happens next is anyone’s guess...

[Hibernia&Alba]

No sane MP (I know) will allow the UK to crash out of the EU without a deal, and nor will the EU. The deadline will be extended.

(Fingers crossed!!!)

That looks the only option, though the Brexiteers will go bonkers.

[grunt]

That looks the only option, though the Brexiteers will go bonkers.
They've not got far to go then.

[Just Alf]

You don’t need to.

Just the way I see it. On a subject as big and diverse as this you’re going to come across many different views.

I hardly agree with anything being said on this thread but I enjoy reading different points of view.You make a good point, there are so many views on this.

The bottom line, for me at least, is that since the 37% of the population voted leave we've had almost two years of negotiations, extra info etc, when you hear that many of that 37% don't agree (some wanted Canada+ others some Norwegian thing and others a complete break) then what do we as a country actually want? Tonight's vote will be interesting.

I believe that the most democratic way forward would be for the government to return to the people with a binding vote.

This will give us all a chance to vote on the reality we find ourselves, we know already that some of the 37% have changed their minds when lies/exaggerations have been exposed but equally there will be those that now want to leave and others who didn't vote may want their voice heard this time around. Anything else is undemocratic.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

They've not got far to go then.

:tee hee:

[Just Alf]

Why not?

The vote was to leave, the politicians have been unable to come up with a ‘deal’ on what that looks like so the default is to leave with no deal.

Hardly anyone’s preferred outcome but it at least supports the basic tenant of the original vote which was of course to leave!

A few twists and turns for this sorry saga still to go though so what happens next is anyone’s guess...I don't get that?

You want to buy my car

OK £10k

Nah.. 8k

Nope 10k

On and on for 2 years

Then...

Nah, sorry... You then walk away, no deal was agreed so we both remain exactly as we were before we started.

Summat like that anyway :-)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

No sane MP (I know) will allow the UK to crash out of the EU without a deal, and nor will the EU. The deadline will be extended.

(Fingers crossed!!!)

I agree with this. The majority of MPs would mobilise and the Tory cabinet wouldn't want to walk straight into ND either. But I was equally confident the original referendum would be Remain, and no way was Trump going to beat Clinton a few hours before the result, so what do any of us know really.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I don't get that?

You want to buy my car

OK £10k

Nah.. 8k

Nope 10k

On and on for 2 years

Then...

Nah, sorry... You then walk away, no deal was agreed so we both remain exactly as we were before we started.

Summat like that anyway :-)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I think of the analogy of a domestic break up:

Him: I want to leave.
Her: I don't want you to go.
Him: I'm leaving
Her: Okay, if that's what you really want
Him: It is, so I'm off, but I'm going on my own terms.
Her: Meaning?
Him: I still want to get to use the house when I like, you to do my ironing, and the odd bit of hanky panky would be nice.
Her: Are you taking the piss?
Him: No, these are my terms; reject them and I'll leave anyway.
Her: I reject them.
Him: I'm leaving. Get back to me when you've accepted my terms.....

[RyeSloan]

I don't get that?

You want to buy my car

OK £10k

Nah.. 8k

Nope 10k

On and on for 2 years

Then...

Nah, sorry... You then walk away, no deal was agreed so we both remain exactly as we were before we started.

Summat like that anyway :-)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Ha ha yeah yeah maybe although no one was trading anything here and there was no precondition to a deal in terms of the UK leaving.

So more like a couple splitting up and not agreeing the divorce settlement before they go their separate ways but split up they will do regardless. Which is probably as poor an analogy as yours [emoji1787]

In this case it was probably in the best interests for both parties to agree one but in the absence of them doing so then the date to leave is set and therefore we leave.

Not that I’m minded to think that’s the smartest move but to me it at least delivers to what was voted for and then forces the politicos to sort the mess out...as it is there just seems to be endless grandstanding from all angles which is serving no one any good at all.

Anyhoo I suppose we’ll find out soon enough but it will be interesting to see if the UK does seem headed out the no deal door if the EU suddenly start offering some concessions....quite whether May can hang on that long or hold that line domestically is another question of course.

So basically I’m saying who knows what is gonna happen but wow was a spectacular mess it has been and still I s! [emoji2957]

[cleanyman]

Theresa slaying Jezza there

[grunt]

Nah, sorry... You then walk away, no deal was agreed so we both remain exactly as we were before we started.
Summat like that anyway :-)


Him: I'm leaving. Get back to me when you've accepted my terms.....


So more like a couple splitting up and not agreeing the divorce settlement before they go their separate ways but split up they will do regardless. Which is probably as poor an analogy as yours [emoji1787]

In this case it was probably in the best interests for both parties to agree one but in the absence of them doing so then the date to leave is set and therefore we leave.
What? Are you serious??

No deal doesn't mean that everything stays the same??? If we leave with no deal, there's no agreements in place to govern the way we do business. Everything stops until we can make arrangements to get things going again.

No deal = economic suicide.

[cleanyman]

What? Are you serious??

No deal doesn't mean that everything stays the same??? If we leave with no deal, there's no agreements in place to govern the way we do business. Everything stops until we can make arrangements to get things going again.

No deal = economic suicide.

The term no deal didn't exist until after the vote

Lets get on with it

OOT

[grunt]

Even Leave.EU own website warned against No Deal.

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

They said:



One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected.

[hfc rd]

Apologies if already posted, but what time do we find out the results?

The whole thing has just been a complete mess, the moment the idiots in this country voted to leave the EU!

[Hibernia&Alba]

What? Are you serious??

No deal doesn't mean that everything stays the same??? If we leave with no deal, there's no agreements in place to govern the way we do business. Everything stops until we can make arrangements to get things going again.

No deal = economic suicide.

It certainly would be.

[cleanyman]

Apologies if already posted, but what time do we find out the results?

The whole thing has just been a complete mess, the moment the idiots in this country voted to leave the EU!

How sanctimonious of you

And 7.30

[hibsbollah]

How sanctimonious of you

And 7.30

I don't think you know what 'sanctimonious' means. Nothing sanctimonious about it, just say you disagree with him:rolleyes:

[hfc rd]

How sanctimonious of you

And 7.30


Nights like this would not have happened though.

[cleanyman]

I don't think you know what 'sanctimonious' means. Nothing sanctimonious about it, just say you disagree with him:rolleyes:

I would say calling people idiots is indeed rather santimonious

As is your post by the way

[Callum_62]

Apologies if already posted, but what time do we find out the results?

The whole thing has just been a complete mess, the moment the idiots in this country voted to leave the EU!

About 15 mins time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

****, power cut in the House of Commons! Instead of just pressing their buttons to vote, the hundreds of MPs are having to go a wee walk through a 'human turnstyle' sort of arrangement to have their votes counted. Some electrician's for his jotters.

[Pretty Boy]

166 votes is the target for worst defeat for a sitting government. It could be the 1st 'victory' teflon Theresa has had in a while.

[hibsbollah]

Vote simulator on the guardian website was fun. I predict a 225 vote landslide against the deal.

230 votes!!! I was close.

[grunt]

166 votes is the target for worst defeat for a sitting government. It could be the 1st 'victory' teflon Theresa has had in a while.Beat that no problem.

[Callum_62]

230 loss

What was the point of the 5 week delay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I would say calling people idiots is indeed rather santimonious

As is your post by the way

It's not. If anything, your post was more sanctimonious complaining about his post.

[hfc rd]

No surprise by the number of that loss

[Pretty Boy]

Right time to get rid of this motley crew. Over to you Jeremy.

[Hibrandenburg]

More than 2 3rds against. She's now throwing her teddy around.

[Callum_62]

May says there will be space made tomorrow if no confidence vote tabled tonight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GlesgaeHibby]

Right time to get rid of this motley crew. Over to you Jeremy.

She has laid down gauntlet. He will bottle it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

230 votes!!! I was close.

Hawl, Robin Day, not bad at all :aok:

[Pretty Boy]

They have to take this back to the public either as a peoples vote or a general election. No one is getting what they want with the current shambles.

[Pretty Boy]

She has laid down gauntlet. He will bottle it.

He surely can't. It's an open goal now.

[Hibernia&Alba]

May says there will be space made tomorrow if no confidence vote tabled tonight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DUP will back Tories in a confidence vote, but it will be close, given the maths in the Commons. But then Brexit still looms for her.

[Callum_62]

They have to take this back to the public either as a peoples vote or a general election. No one is getting what they want with the current shambles.

Whats the point of a GE?

SNP were voted in on a mandate on indyref2 - which was just rejected by the UK Gov


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn no confidence motion called for tomorrow.

[Callum_62]

No confidence vote tabled by Corbyn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GlesgaeHibby]

He surely can't. It's an open goal now.

Wow. He actually did it.

[stoneyburn hibs]

And after all that Corbyn won't win a vote of no confidence.

[Hibernia&Alba]

And after all that Corbyn won't win a vote of no confidence.

The DUP loonies/bigots will ensure the government survives.

[cabbageandribs1875]

You make a good point, there are so many views on this.

The bottom line, for me at least, is that since the 37% of the population voted leave we've had almost two years of negotiations, extra info etc, when you hear that many of that 37% don't agree (some wanted Canada+ others some Norwegian thing and others a complete break) then what do we as a country actually want? Tonight's vote will be interesting.

I believe that the most democratic way forward would be for the government to return to the people with a binding vote.

This will give us all a chance to vote on the reality we find ourselves, we know already that some of the 37% have changed their minds when lies/exaggerations have been exposed but equally there will be those that now want to leave and others who didn't vote may want their voice heard this time around. Anything else is undemocratic.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


democracy ? a democratic vote was taken in 2016 :confused: there should be no but but buts, as a Scottish Nationalist i also accept there was a democratic vote against my personal wishes in 2014, unless i've missed a but but but re-vote in the last four years, leave means leave but if another UK election takes place in the next few years to rejoin the EU then great, it's widely accepted that leave voters were lied to....just like the no voters were lied to in 2014, as much as i dislike theresa may(and her fellow tories) i think her deal should actually be accepted by the remainers, imo of course, us voters in Scotland will probably be getting a seperate vote to rejoin the EU in the next few months which of course will also include independence from westminster :)

[Pretty Boy]

Wow. He actually did it.

He had to and he's done it with a pretty accurate and damning critique of May and the government. I'm impressed by him.

Actually winning the no confidence vote is the hard part as the DUP hate him.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I would say calling people idiots is indeed rather santimonious

As is your post by the way


fair point :agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

The DUP loonies/bigots will ensure the government survives.

Sadly and probably with some more sweeteners just to make sure.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The DUP deciding the fate of the country. This is the lamentable situation we've arrived at.

[Pretty Boy]

Sadly and probably with some more sweeteners just to make sure.

A duty reduction on sashes and Buckfast?

[RyeSloan]

A duty reduction on sashes and Buckfast?

And flutes! [emoji3]

[Callum_62]

The DUP said if she had won tonight they would have voted AGAINST May in a no confidence vote [emoji1751]*[emoji3603]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stoneyburn hibs]

A duty reduction on sashes and Buckfast?

😁 That really wouldn't be a shock.

[grunt]

Wow. He actually did it.Well, he's won himself a penalty.
Whether he can actually score from it remains to be seen.

[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190115/7cddf2f281d32a1a2908eb68b9562758.jpg

At a time when the lack of backbone (and over riding instinct for self preservation) characterises politics, this made me smile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Andrew Neil is being hilarious with the lizard like Tory minister who is refusing to answer the question and in general looks like he needs to make a Levein style run for the cludgie.

[GlesgaeHibby]

The DUP deciding the fate of the country. This is the lamentable situation we've arrived at.

Scottish Labour encouraging Tory votes led to this mess.

[hibsbollah]

He had to and he's done it with a pretty accurate and damning critique of May and the government. I'm impressed by him.

Actually winning the no confidence vote is the hard part as the DUP hate him.

Sinn Fein not taking up their seats, and facilitating this craziness is looking more like pure selfishness and a shafting of most of their constituents.

[Jack Hackett]

Andrew Neil is being hilarious with the lizard like Tory minister who is refusing to answer the question and in general looks like he needs to make a Levein style run for the cludgie.

Utterly cringeworthy interview. This man is part of the government ffs

[hibsbollah]

Utterly cringeworthy interview. This man is part of the government ffs

He's scared to speak. An absolute embarrassment.

[neil7908]

The DUP deciding the fate of the country. This is the lamentable situation we've arrived at.

Absolutely. And we have the audacity to laugh at Trump and the state of American politics.

[Hibernia&Alba]

BBC graphic has the vote as Ayes and Noes. Everyone knows it's Ayes and Naws; what's happening th standards?

[Radium]

Sinn Fein not taking up their seats, and facilitating this craziness is looking more like pure selfishness and a shafting of most of their constituents.

In fairness, it is a principled position that their supporters are absolutely clear about.

I would like them to be involved but accept why they are not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibby70]

Utterly cringeworthy interview. This man is part of the government ffs

Who is he?

[hibsbollah]

Hawl, Robin Day, not bad at all :aok:

John Curtice gets his predictions wrong every time and is never off the telly :grr:

[lapsedhibee]

He's scared to speak. An absolute embarrassment.
Who was it?

[Jack Hackett]

Who is he?

Health Minister Matthew Hancock

[hibsbollah]

Who is he?

Health minister Hancock. Looks like he's just had a ketamine sandwich.

[Jack Hackett]

Who was it?

He's still continuing the interview and he's being ripped a new one

[Jack Hackett]

Over now, but that was frightening in terms of how utterly clueless they are

Enough of that... I'm away to massacre some aliens on Destiny 2 and relieve some of the tension

[lapsedhibee]

Health Minister Matthew Hancock

Ta.

[Radium]

https://youtu.be/SR7JwVjWByM

Alternative to someone just stonewalling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

There is no majority for anything in Parliament.

No Deal is horrific. We must go to the people to decide.

Mays Deal (what ever it ends up after 3 days) or no Brexit.

J

[hibsbollah]

Sammy Wilson of the DUP fresh from his role in trainspotting 2s singsong, confirm they will vote for May in tomorrows confidence vote, even though they clearly have no confidence in her.

[Ryan91]

Over now, but that was frightening in terms of how utterly clueless they are

Enough of that... I'm away to massacre some aliens on Destiny 2 and relieve some of the tension

It's been clear since the result of the vote was announced that the Tories were completely clueless and had no definitive position, instead attempting to appease the likes of Rees-Mogg and Boris

This shambles does call for some good old griding, who knows maybe I'll get some decent drops this week?

[Mon Dieu4]

The fact that this DUP dude on the BBC thinks that the EU will have to give a better deal because of this says it all

[Callum_62]

Sammy Wilson of the DUP fresh from his role in trainspotting 2s singsong, confirm they will vote for May in tomorrows confidence vote, even though they clearly have no confidence in her.

“To allow her to keep delivering BREXIT”
[emoji23][emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ryan91]

Sammy Wilson of the DUP fresh from his role in trainspotting 2s singsong, confirm they will vote for May in tomorrows confidence vote, even though they clearly have no confidence in her.

If I were in their position, I would too, she'd hapilly bend over backwards to appease them

[hibsbollah]

Mandelson given the opportunity by Neil to give Corbyn a kicking, he doesn't take it. Unity is strength, comrade.

[Ryan91]

The fact that this DUP dude on the BBC thinks that the EU will have to give a better deal because of this says it all

Utterly clueless bunch of fannies, when idiots like that are propping up the Government you really do start to wonder

[James310]

What annoys me is we have wasted one month as it was clear this deal would be defeated in December. Theresa May is to blame for this as a blind man could see it was going to get defeated, we have now wasted a month of precious time where the way forward could have been debated.

[hibsbollah]

Boris. Bring On The Clown.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If I were in their position, I would too, she'd hapilly bend over backwards to appease them

That's a hideous mental image.

[hibsbollah]

Did he just say 'bank it'??
Boy thinks he's Noel Edmonds.

[hibsbollah]

Six former Rebecca Long Bailey answers the questions. She's quite competent. But I could have done without her saying 'yes' to that question about still leaving.

[Ryan91]

That's a hideous mental image.

Now that I think about it, yeah. Sorry.

[Hibrandenburg]

The fact that this DUP dude on the BBC thinks that the EU will have to give a better deal because of this says it all

My German wife spat out her Schnaps when he sais that.

[Pretty Boy]

Well at least everything is strong and stable.

[JeMeSouviens]

Twitter political chat is May to soldier on but CU red line stays so she seems to be sticking with her plan of picking off Lab backbenchers scared of no deal. Surely there aren’t enough?

On Lab side, they think they will lose no-con but will have multiple attempts, so no ref2 support imminent.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well at least everything is strong and stable.

No chaos with Ed Milliband thankfully!

[Bristolhibby]

Labour going to push a new referendum (not a second one).

C’mon let’s do this!

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour going to push a new referendum (not a second one).

C’mon let’s do this!

J

Says who?

[danhibees1875]

Labour going to push a new referendum (not a second one).

C’mon let’s do this!

J

What's the significance of new rather than second?

[Bristolhibby]

Says who?

BBC or Sky, can’t remember I have been flicking.

J

[Bristolhibby]

What's the significance of new rather than second?

Because this is a new vote on Mays (amended) deal v No Brexit.

Not the advisory, non legally binding deal that took place to gauge the public’s opinion back in June 2016.

Fingers crossed.

[danhibees1875]

Because this is a new vote on Mays (amended) deal v No Brexit.

Fingers crossed.

:aok:

Thought that would be it, thanks.

[Bristolhibby]

BBC or Sky, can’t remember I have been flicking.

J

Here it is.

https://twitter.com/bethrigby/status/1085285296948826113?s=21

J

[Colr]

Labour going to push a new referendum (not a second one).

C’mon let’s do this!

J

Wonder if Corbyn will actively campaign to leave this time or just hide on his allotment until its all over.

[JeMeSouviens]

Here it is.

https://twitter.com/bethrigby/status/1085285296948826113?s=21

J

100 backbenchers ain’t enough. Ref2 needs the Lab front bench or govt seeking a panicky way out.

[JeMeSouviens]

£ jumps on the vote. Traders think no brexit more likely.

[grunt]

Here it is.

https://twitter.com/bethrigby/status/1085285296948826113?s=21

J
Thanks.

[JeMeSouviens]

Chris Grayling cements his reputation as the thickest of the thick by saying CU means accepting freedom of movement.

The ****wit’s ****wit.

[Ozyhibby]

May wins vote of confidence tomorrow but after that she is in trouble. The minute she breaks towards either no deal or 2nd ref then the tori’s will split and vote no confidence. Can’t see how she survives unless labour agree to go for 2nd ref and agree to keep her in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

£ jumps on the vote. Traders think no brexit more likely.

Should have had a bet on the £ rising as the result was inevitable.

[McSwanky]

May wins vote of confidence tomorrow but after that she is in trouble. The minute she breaks towards either no deal or 2nd ref then the tori’s will split and vote no confidence. Can’t see how she survives unless labour agree to go for 2nd ref and agree to keep her in.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI didn't think the Tories could do another vote of no confidence for 12 months after the last one?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

I didn't think the Tories could do another vote of no confidence for 12 months after the last one?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

That was for Tory leadership among her MPs. This one is no confidence in the govt, voted by all MPs.

[hibsbollah]

In fairness, it is a principled position that their supporters are absolutely clear about.

I would like them to be involved but accept why they are not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.

[WhileTheChief..]

No deal should have been the govt’s position from day one, it was always leading to this.

The scale of the defeat, I think, strengthens the UKs position.

With so little time remaining until it happens you’ll suddenly (before March29) see Europe come back with concessions that are tolerable to Westminster.

They did did the same with the Dutch and the Irish previously, in basic terms, and always leave it to the last minute.

A no deal exit is probably just as bad for the EU as it is for us. The ball is in their court now and the minimum they will offer is an extension.

[Ozyhibby]

That was for Tory leadership among her MPs. This one is no confidence in the govt, voted by all MPs.

Yip, labour could call for a vote of no confidence every day if they like and would do if they knew some Tories would split.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

If the EU won’t budge at all and this is all they will offer, then what’s the point in another referendum or General Election.

If we vote to leave again, or if the Tories or Labour win with a majority will that change the EU’s stance?

To avoid a no deal exit they would have to make concessions as tonight has demonstrated that Westminster, whoever was in charge, wouldn’t accept it.

So other than a vote for us or Remain, whatever else happens, to avoid a no deal, the EU has to move?

What am I missing?

[Ozyhibby]

If the EU won’t budge at all and this is all they will offer, then what’s the point in another referendum or General Election.

If we vote to leave again, or if the Tories or Labour win with a majority will that change the EU’s stance?

To avoid a no deal exit they would have to make concessions as tonight has demonstrated that Westminster, whoever was in charge, wouldn’t accept it.

So other than a vote for us or Remain, whatever else happens, to avoid a no deal, the EU has to move?

What am I missing?

To properly avoid a no deal requires a vote in parliament to change the law. At that point article 50 would need revoked. Then it’s up to us to sort out what we actually want before implementing it again. That will never happen though and we will remain in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

To properly avoid a no deal requires a vote in parliament to change the law. At that point article 50 would need revoked. Then it’s up to us to sort out what we actually want before implementing it again. That will never happen though and we will remain in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if I understand you correctly, it boils down to either a no deal exit or start from scratch with either the current govt/ Prime Minister or new ones?

[Smartie]

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.

Just to clarify - by "not taking their seats" do they get voted in but just not go along to Westminster?

Is there anything stopping them pitching up tomorrow?

Even though I understand their reasons for not taking their seats, I can't see how it would be in their interests on a point of principle not to turn up tomorrow and it would send out a huge message if they did.

What would this mean numerically regarding the vote?

[Andy Bee]

Just to clarify - by "not taking their seats" do they get voted in but just not go along to Westminster?

Is there anything stopping them pitching up tomorrow?

Even though I understand their reasons for not taking their seats, I can't see how it would be in their interests on a point of principle not to turn up tomorrow and it would send out a huge message if they did.

What would this mean numerically regarding the vote?


They need 7 votes for the no confidence, there's 7 Sinn Fein MPs :hmmm:

[blaikie]

They need 7 votes for the no confidence, there's 7 Sinn Fein MPs :hmmm:

I just can’t see 7 SF MPs swearing allegiance to the monarch!!

[Future17]

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.

Zero chance of that happening IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the EU won’t budge at all and this is all they will offer, then what’s the point in another referendum or General Election.

If we vote to leave again, or if the Tories or Labour win with a majority will that change the EU’s stance?

To avoid a no deal exit they would have to make concessions as tonight has demonstrated that Westminster, whoever was in charge, wouldn’t accept it.

So other than a vote for us or Remain, whatever else happens, to avoid a no deal, the EU has to move?

What am I missing?

I think you're missing the point that it's a fundamental principle of the EU treaty that people are allowed free movement and the right to work anywhere within the member states. Brexit was about stopping that and that will never be acceptable for them. Sure they might still offer concessions on trade but there's no way they'll budge on their fundamental principles, if they did then the EU is dead in the water.

[Hibbyradge]

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.

I would ******ing love that. :faf:

Unfortunately, there's zero chance of it happening. :boo hoo:

[hibsbollah]

I would ******ing love that. :faf:

Unfortunately, there's zero chance of it happening. :boo hoo:

I get the historical symbolism. They don't take up their seats because their predecessors were murdered by the British state, and they don't recognize Westminster as the centre of power in Ulster. But I don't understand why they aren't pressurised more for not reconsidering their position in this unique situation, in which Norn Ireland is right at the centre of the mess.

[Just Alf]

No deal should have been the govt’s position from day one, it was always leading to this.

The scale of the defeat, I think, strengthens the UKs position.

With so little time remaining until it happens you’ll suddenly (before March29) see Europe come back with concessions that are tolerable to Westminster.

They did did the same with the Dutch and the Irish previously, in basic terms, and always leave it to the last minute.

A no deal exit is probably just as bad for the EU as it is for us. The ball is in their court now and the minimum they will offer is an extension.Thing is, they did give the UK concessions like the Dutch/Irish situations, Cameron secured a deal where we were exempt from paying towards future EU bailouts had better control over benefits to EU workers and the new treaty would also have specifically exempted us from closer political ties... All while remaining in the Customs Union. Westminster rejected it and the rest is history.

The EU position has been pretty much set in stone, for the important things at least, ever since then.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

I get the historical symbolism. They don't take up their seats because their predecessors were murdered by the British state, and they don't recognize Westminster as the centre of power in Ulster. But I don't understand why they aren't pressurised more for not reconsidering their position in this unique situation, in which Norn Ireland is right at the centre of the mess.

That's pragmatic, but it's beyond political possibility.

They can't, and won't, swear allegiance to the queen.

[Ozyhibby]

If you want to remain in Eu then you need the govt to win today. Labour Party need to move towards a people’s vote and that can only happen if they lose today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

I get the historical symbolism. They don't take up their seats because their predecessors were murdered by the British state, and they don't recognize Westminster as the centre of power in Ulster. But I don't understand why they aren't pressurised more for not reconsidering their position in this unique situation, in which Norn Ireland is right at the centre of the mess.

It’s an almost century old position. To take up seats they’d have to swear allegiance to the queen. Irish republicanism has split over abstentionism in 1926 (Fianna Fail from Sinn Fein) and 1986 (led to Continuity IRA). They would be loathe to give the dissidents the boost of “betrayal”.

Plus a hard brexit brings the chance of a possible border poll.

[hibsbollah]

That's pragmatic, but it's beyond political possibility.

They can't, and won't, swear allegiance to the queen.

Cross their fingers behind their back?:confused:

[Hibbyradge]

Cross their fingers behind their back?:confused:

"Only kidding" :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

If the EU won’t budge at all and this is all they will offer, then what’s the point in another referendum or General Election.

If we vote to leave again, or if the Tories or Labour win with a majority will that change the EU’s stance?

To avoid a no deal exit they would have to make concessions as tonight has demonstrated that Westminster, whoever was in charge, wouldn’t accept it.

So other than a vote for us or Remain, whatever else happens, to avoid a no deal, the EU has to move?

What am I missing?

The pain of no deal might be equal on both sides but (apart from Ireland) it would be spread much thinner on the EU side and concentrated on the UK side.

The EU thinks that when max disruption kicks off in a matter of weeks the Uk will come crawling back to the table.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.


Would be funny but they will never pledge allegiance to the queen.