Brexit - what will happen next

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't want to give the impression that I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. But you do keep saying things I disagree with! :)

I know nothing about how the EU works, but I would have laid good money on no trade deal being agreed within the 2 year timescale. The government is supposed to know this stuff, but they gaily went to press with their timetable. So why are they making objectives they (should) know they can't keep? What's going on here?


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Its prob more like 18 mths, as a new trade agreement would habe to be ratified by all 27 member states, and also some regional governments. They are scheduling 6 mths for that i think.

Definitely one of the drae backs of the EU system, especially when Wallonia could effectively scupper the whole deal.

Or for that matter, so could spain if they didnt want it to apply to Gibraltar and the UK refuses to allow them to be excluded.

As SiMar says, brinkmanship will be at play on both side and they will wait until the last possible moment before a deal is agreed.

[grunt]

Definitely one of the drae backs of the EU system, especially when Wallonia could effectively scupper the whole deal.

Depends on your perspective. I've heard SNP friends hailing the ability of smaller nations to have their say as being a strength of the EU. A true Union of equals.

Certainly when compared to the position of Scotland within the UK, where regardless of the SNP majority at Westminster (56 out of 59 seats?) those seats count for nothing in getting Scotland's views taken into account in matters affecting Scotland. Viz Scotlands opposition to triggering A50.


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Depends on your perspective. I've heard SNP friends hailing the ability of smaller nations to have their say as being a strength of the EU. A true Union of equals.

Certainly when compared to the position of Scotland within the UK, where regardless of the SNP majority at Westminster (56 out of 59 seats?) those seats count for nothing in getting Scotland's views taken into account in matters affecting Scotland. Viz Scotlands opposition to triggering A50.


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That's a reasonable argument to make. It just seems unwieldy.

[RyeSloan]

I don't want to give the impression that I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. But you do keep saying things I disagree with! :)

I know nothing about how the EU works, but I would have laid good money on no trade deal being agreed within the 2 year timescale. The government is supposed to know this stuff, but they gaily went to press with their timetable. So why are they making objectives they (should) know they can't keep? What's going on here?


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Ha ha dinnae worry the feelings mutual 🤣

To be honest though on this occasion I'm not overly disagreeing with your point...I've already said suggesting a full trade deal with the EU was likely in the two year time line was a bit daft but reading the article there is quite a bit of extrapolation going on in terms of interpreting what was said to suit the piece. And naw I'm still not getting what Easter eggs have to do with any of it [emoji38]

Anyway it's not something I'm that bothered about...Davis is a bit of a c ock and the government have shown they are still struggling to come up with a coherent message that much Is clear. On the flip side though the EU and Juncker in particular seem more interested in protecting their political ideals than anything else so not seeing anyone making much sense so far!

[ronaldo7]

Your choice. :greengrin

Personally, I feel more of an affinity with someone in Berlin rather than Basildon, or someone from Grenoble rather than Great Yarmouth.

Choices eh.:aok:




How many people do you know from Grenoble? Why do they feel closer than the people you know from Great Yarmouth?

Affinity...a natural liking for and understanding of someone or something.

I'm sure you can work it out MA.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Post Brexit deals with the old commonwealth countries more difficult as they've moved on.

https://t.co/C5RFI7KN2F

Mihir Sharma, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, said “an absurd amount of Commonwealth nostalgia” has informed the pre- and post-Brexit referendum debate in the UK. “Using the Commonwealth to generate the kind of economic relationships that Britain would like is simply not going to happen,” he said. “The economies of other Commonwealth countries are no longer basket cases.” India’s economy is growing at about 7 per cent a year.

[Slavers]

[QUOTE=Mibbes Aye;4999987]

Affinity...a natural liking for and understanding of someone or something.

I'm sure you can work it out MA.:greengrin

Is it because they are not English?

[PeeJay]

Your choice. :greengrin

Personally, I feel more of an affinity with someone in Berlin rather than Basildon, or someone from Grenoble rather than Great Yarmouth.

Choices eh.:aok:

Would you care to qualify that?

[Moulin Yarns]

The European Parliament approves a motion setting out its position on the forthcoming Brexit negotiations by 516 votes to 133 with 50 abstentions. MEPs will not participate directly in exit talks but must ratify the final deal.
A series of amendments to the main motion – mostly tabled by UKIP – were rejected.
The resolution backs the “phased” approach to negotiation favoured by EU leaders, and says the UK should be considered liable for financial commitments it made as a member.
It says any transitional arrangements should be time-limited to three years and overseen by the EU’s Court of Justice.
It also says:


UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in Britain should receive “reciprocal” treatment Sensible
the final deal should not include a “trade-off” between trade and security co-operation Sensible

the UK should adhere to EU environmental and anti-tax evasion standards to get close trade ties Obviously

the European Banking Authority and European Medicines Agency should be moved out of London There go the jobs, tax etc

the UK should pay towards costs for the EU that “arise directly from its withdrawal” Obviously

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The European Parliament approves a motion setting out its position on the forthcoming Brexit negotiations by 516 votes to 133 with 50 abstentions. MEPs will not participate directly in exit talks but must ratify the final deal.
A series of amendments to the main motion – mostly tabled by UKIP – were rejected.
The resolution backs the “phased” approach to negotiation favoured by EU leaders, and says the UK should be considered liable for financial commitments it made as a member.
It says any transitional arrangements should be time-limited to three years and overseen by the EU’s Court of Justice.
It also says:


UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in Britain should receive “reciprocal” treatment Sensible
the final deal should not include a “trade-off” between trade and security co-operation Sensible

the UK should adhere to EU environmental and anti-tax evasion standards to get close trade ties Obviously

the European Banking Authority and European Medicines Agency should be moved out of London There go the jobs, tax etc

the UK should pay towards costs for the EU that “arise directly from its withdrawal” Obviously



Losing both the EMA and the EBA are blows, no doubt about it.

I know however that a good bit of the EMAs work os carried out by the UK regulator's staff, so what will happen there is anyones guess.

They all seem fairly sensible and non-contentious.

[johnbc70]

Quotes are all over the place. We have R7 above saying he is happy to be in a union with England, at that point I knew something was wrong!

Anyway point was why do you have an affinity with people from France and Germany rather than your near neighbours down the road?

I would say I have more in common with my colleagues in Leeds who I visit on a regular basis than I would have with people from a different culture and country.

[ronaldo7]

Is it because they are not English?




Would you care to qualify that?

Sorry HT nothing to do with English people. I wonder why you would think so?

My English Mum, Aunts, Grandfather, and my Irish Grandmother would be very angry if they thought this was about Blood and soil.

The reasons I gave the areas that I did, was that they'd still be members of the European Union in a couple of years time, and the others wouldn't.

That's why I have an affinity with them.

Those thinking otherwise maybe need to take a look at themselves.

While I've got your attention, Home team, can you respond to my questions at post 852 of this thread, this is the second time of asking. You may have just missed it, but I'd be obliged if you could answer some questions, rather than just asking them. Cheers.

[HiBremian]

Quotes are all over the place. We have R7 above saying he is happy to be in a union with England, at that point I knew something was wrong!

Anyway point was why do you have an affinity with people from France and Germany rather than your near neighbours down the road?

I would say I have more in common with my colleagues in Leeds who I visit on a regular basis than I would have with people from a different culture and country.

French mother, German wife, perhaps that has something to do with it. Even so, I've spent 40 years of my life in England, have many friends there, my kids were born there. But even my Newcastle-based daughter said she woke up on June 24th feeling like she was in a foreign country. She's right. In many ways we are culturally closer to much of Europe than to Brexit UK, certainly for younger people who have got used to travelling across open borders.

I respect that many people feel "British" though, and that they have more in common with folks down south. I just don't accept that it can only be expressed through Unionism. A british confederation of independent nations would surely satisfy most scot/brits faced with an identity crisis, as well as hopefully securing a principle of economic cooperation.


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[ronaldo7]

Quotes are all over the place. We have R7 above saying he is happy to be in a union with England, at that point I knew something was wrong!

Anyway point was why do you have an affinity with people from France and Germany rather than your near neighbours down the road?

I would say I have more in common with my colleagues in Leeds who I visit on a regular basis than I would have with people from a different culture and country.

Where did I say that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Where did I say that?

It is one of the posts above where the quoting has gone haywire. Northstandhibby quotes SouthsideHarp_boy

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?312796-Brexit-what-will-happen-next&p=4999812&viewfull=1#post4999812

[ronaldo7]

It is one of the posts above where the quoting has gone haywire. Northstandhibby quotes SouthsideHarp_boy

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?312796-Brexit-what-will-happen-next&p=4999812&viewfull=1#post4999812

Thanks.

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks.

I kind of guessed you hadn't said it :wink:

If you had I would have called the ambulance myself

[High-On-Hibs]

It's tiresome hearing people say that they wouldn't vote for independence on the mere simplicity of not wanting to lose their "Britishness".

Independence is a break up of the UK political system, not the British isles. You can still retain your "Britishness". Although I would suspect that within the next few years, you'll probably not want to anymore.

[RyeSloan]

Sorry HT nothing to do with English people. I wonder why you would think so?

My English Mum, Aunts, Grandfather, and my Irish Grandmother would be very angry if they thought this was about Blood and soil.

The reasons I gave the areas that I did, was that they'd still be members of the European Union in a couple of years time, and the others wouldn't.

That's why I have an affinity with them.

Those thinking otherwise maybe need to take a look at themselves.

While I've got your attention, Home team, can you respond to my questions at post 852 of this thread, this is the second time of asking. You may have just missed it, but I'd be obliged if you could answer some questions, rather than just asking them. Cheers.

So you base your affinity with people on which political union their country is a member of? How odd.

It's a rather strange metric that suggests you have a greater understanding and liking for all Austrians despite them almost voting for Norbert Hofer as their president than you do for anyone that happens to live in England because they live in a country that voted to leave the EU.

[PeeJay]

Sorry HT nothing to do with English people. I wonder why you would think so?

My English Mum, Aunts, Grandfather, and my Irish Grandmother would be very angry if they thought this was about Blood and soil.

The reasons I gave the areas that I did, was that they'd still be members of the European Union in a couple of years time, and the others wouldn't.

That's why I have an affinity with them.

Those thinking otherwise maybe need to take a look at themselves.

While I've got your attention, Home team, can you respond to my questions at post 852 of this thread, this is the second time of asking. You may have just missed it, but I'd be obliged if you could answer some questions, rather than just asking them. Cheers.

OK - right-wing countries such as Hungary and Poland are also in the EU - so do you have some more involved sort of "affinity" with them too rather than people in the English part of the UK - or doesn't it matter what political status a country has as long as the country is in the EU?:confused:

[ronaldo7]

So you base your affinity with people on which political union their country is a member of? How odd.

It's a rather strange metric that suggests you have a greater understanding and liking for all Austrians despite them almost voting for Norbert Hofer as their president than you do for anyone that happens to live in England because they live in a country that voted to leave the EU.

I take it you've never been to Basildon.:greengrin

Nice deflection though. Next you'll be telling me, bad things happened in Berlin.

[ronaldo7]

OK - right-wing countries such as Hungary and Poland are also in the EU - so do you have some more involved sort of "affinity" with them too rather than people in the English part of the UK - or doesn't it matter what political status a country has as long as the country is in the EU?:confused:

Once again, you're quoting countries not mentioned by me.:rolleyes:

[PeeJay]

Once again, you're quoting countries not mentioned by me.:rolleyes:

Are you being somewhat evasive here?

You wrote - "The reasons I gave the areas that I did, was that they'd still be members of the European Union in a couple of years time, and the others wouldn't." Poland and Hungary are EU members. I don't quite understand your reasoning ...

[ronaldo7]

Are you being somewhat evasive here?

You wrote - "The reasons I gave the areas that I did, was that they'd still be members of the European Union in a couple of years time, and the others wouldn't." Poland and Hungary are EU members. I don't quite understand your reasoning ...

Basildon voted Leave
Great Yarmouth voted Leave
Doncaster voted Leave

They won't be EU members in two years time. That was their choice, however, it wasn't mine.

[marinello59]

Basildon voted Leave
Great Yarmouth voted Leave
Doncaster voted Leave

They won't be EU members in two years time. That was their choice, however, it wasn't mine.

Quotes all fixed R so everybody can see exactly what you said now. :aok:.

I take it you have no affinity with the 38% of your fellow Scots who voted to leave the EU then.

[PeeJay]

Basildon voted Leave
Great Yarmouth voted Leave
Doncaster voted Leave

They won't be EU members in two years time. That was their choice, however, it wasn't mine.

Ok, so you have a list of English cities that don't tickle your affinity? :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I take it you've never been to Basildon.:greengrin

Nice deflection though. Next you'll be telling me, bad things happened in Berlin.

Ha it's not me deflecting...you stated your reasons why you feel such affinity to Berliners, I was merely stating that your chosen metric was a rather odd one.

[ronaldo7]

Quotes all fixed R so everybody can see exactly what you said now. :aok:.

I take it you have no affinity with the 38% of your fellow Scots who voted to leave the EU then.

18323

Certainly not these ones.

[marinello59]

18323

Certainly not these ones.

That hasn't really answered the question though has it?

[ronaldo7]

That hasn't really answered the question though has it?

When Scotref arrives, I have the chance to influence the 38%

I've no chance of doing that with Basildon, Great Yarmouth, or Doncaster. They're now a lost cause.:greengrin

We're winning them over already, and we've not started.:greengrin

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/scottish-labour-mep-david-martin-warns-uk-will-cease-exist-if-theresa-may-ignores-snp

[marinello59]

When Scotref arrives, I have the chance to influence the 38%

I've no chance of doing that with Basildon, Great Yarmouth, or Doncaster. They're now a lost cause.:greengrin

And you still haven't answered the question.:greengrin

[G B Young]

It's tiresome hearing people say that they wouldn't vote for independence on the mere simplicity of not wanting to lose their "Britishness".

It might be tiresome to independence supporters, but like it or not it's a major reason, if not the key reason, why the majority of voters in Scotland voted no in 2014. And for many of them, myself included, being British equates to being part of the UK through thick or thin. It's got nothing to do with some sort of jingoistic nostalgia, it's simply how people feel. That the more rabid among the SNP's supporters (who would have you believe we are some sort of occupied territory or oppressed nation) simply don't understand this is why those who wish to remain part of the UK will never be seduced by Scottish Nationalism. If you feel it's tiresome to hear people cite their preference to remain British please bear in mind that for those people it's equally tiresome to have that preference disrespected by the scaremongering Brexit rhetoric deployed by the SNP.

[Hibrandenburg]

It might be tiresome to independence supporters, but like it or not it's a major reason, if not the key reason, why the majority of voters in Scotland voted no in 2014. And for many of them, myself included, being British equates to being part of the UK through thick or thin. It's got nothing to do with some sort of jingoistic nostalgia, it's simply how people feel. That the more rabid among the SNP's supporters (who would have you believe we are some sort of occupied territory or oppressed nation) simply don't understand this is why those who wish to remain part of the UK will never be seduced by Scottish Nationalism. If you feel it's tiresome to hear people cite their preference to remain British please bear in mind that for those people it's equally tiresome to have that preference disrespected by the scaremongering Brexit rhetoric deployed by the SNP.

Pot, kettle and black.

[Colr]

Ok, so you have a list of English cities that don't tickle your affinity? :greengrin

He's listed three ****holes.

I think peoples decision to vote leave in places where there is no real hope for advancement in their lives reflects a failure of UK political leadership from the centre.

The same thing happened in the 30s when right-wingers focus blame on outsiders to build a powerbase from the despirate.

They got asked their opinion and the status quo didn't look very appealling and nothing else was on offer.

You expect that from the Tories for whom this will eventually be seen as a massive **** up but I really lay a lot of blame at Labour's door for not being anything like an effective opposition on this.

[HiBremian]

It might be tiresome to independence supporters, but like it or not it's a major reason, if not the key reason, why the majority of voters in Scotland voted no in 2014. And for many of them, myself included, being British equates to being part of the UK through thick or thin. It's got nothing to do with some sort of jingoistic nostalgia, it's simply how people feel. That the more rabid among the SNP's supporters (who would have you believe we are some sort of occupied territory or oppressed nation) simply don't understand this is why those who wish to remain part of the UK will never be seduced by Scottish Nationalism. If you feel it's tiresome to hear people cite their preference to remain British please bear in mind that for those people it's equally tiresome to have that preference disrespected by the scaremongering Brexit rhetoric deployed by the SNP.

"through thick or thin", then you attack "the more rabid among the SNP supporters". Hmmm, so how thick or thin does the UK have to be for your "thick" to wear "thin"? If you're willing to support the current UK, would that continue if they start stripping Holyrood of its powers (Sewell Convention being history and all that). Or maybe a gvt that starts actively deporting EU citizens? Or prime minister Farage? My question is simple. When does your support stop? This has zilch to do with feeling "British" and everything to do with taking a political stance. As a "less rabid" independence supporter, I would certainly not support a racist nationalist movement in Scotland. Yet that is where British nationalism is headed. What is the more effective force against this? An internationalist independence movement, or Kezia Dugdale?


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[G B Young]

"through thick or thin", then you attack "the more rabid among the SNP supporters". Hmmm, so how thick or thin does the UK have to be for your "thick" to wear "thin"? If you're willing to support the current UK, would that continue if they start stripping Holyrood of its powers (Sewell Convention being history and all that). Or maybe a gvt that starts actively deporting EU citizens? Or prime minister Farage? My question is simple. When does your support stop? This has zilch to do with feeling "British" and everything to do with taking a political stance. As a "less rabid" independence supporter, I would certainly not support a racist nationalist movement in Scotland. Yet that is where British nationalism is headed. What is the more effective force against this? An internationalist independence movement, or Kezia Dugdale?

Well, I guess I might draw the line at Prime Minister Farage! But that, and the scenarios you suggest, are not (in my opinion) going to happen. Farage can't even win a seat in the Commons and it's only the monumental incompetence of the Labour Party that you allude to that sees UKIP retain any sort of political presence now that Brexit has been achieved. From Mosley's blackshirts to the BNP, no "racist nationalist" movement has ever come close to embedding itself in UK politics and it's probably because UKIP are perceived as the party those of such persuasions would gravitate towards that they'll never be seriously embraced.

I also don't agree that wanting to be part of the UK, or feeling British, has to be a political stance. When you grow up feeling you're Scottish AND British the prospect of having that taken away is a big deal to many. The number of people who voted no in 2014 for that reason alone should not be underestimated.

[HiBremian]

Well, I guess I might draw the line at Prime Minister Farage! But that, and the scenarios you suggest, are not (in my opinion) going to happen. Farage can't even win a seat in the Commons and it's only the monumental incompetence of the Labour Party that you allude to that sees UKIP retain any sort of political presence now that Brexit has been achieved. From Mosley's blackshirts to the BNP, no "racist nationalist" movement has ever come close to embedding itself in UK politics and it's probably because UKIP are perceived as the party those of such persuasions would gravitate towards that they'll never be seriously embraced.

I also don't agree that wanting to be part of the UK, or feeling British, has to be a political stance. When you grow up feeling you're Scottish AND British the prospect of having that taken away is a big deal to many. The number of people who voted no in 2014 for that reason alone should not be underestimated.

You're right in the sense that the numbers who voted no in 2014 for that reason is substantial. It was a big part of my discussions with wavering voters. But my point really is that Britishness doesn't HAVE to mean support for this particular form of a UK. I'm sure most indy supporters don't see a problem with close ties with the other home nations. Who said "no" to a shared currency? Who raised the prospects of a hard border, even pre-Brexit? I'd suggest the threat of losing "Britishness" after indy was more a threat from Westminster than a desire amongst indy campaigners.

The problem is specifically Unionism. After all, an indy Scotland was part of another UK between 1603 and 1707. Why can't no voters simply come out and say they are supporting Unionism? And by the way, those of us who feel - and live a life as - Scottish and European, feel Brexit is quite a big deal.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It might be tiresome to independence supporters, but like it or not it's a major reason, if not the key reason, why the majority of voters in Scotland voted no in 2014. And for many of them, myself included, being British equates to being part of the UK through thick or thin. It's got nothing to do with some sort of jingoistic nostalgia, it's simply how people feel. That the more rabid among the SNP's supporters (who would have you believe we are some sort of occupied territory or oppressed nation) simply don't understand this is why those who wish to remain part of the UK will never be seduced by Scottish Nationalism. If you feel it's tiresome to hear people cite their preference to remain British please bear in mind that for those people it's equally tiresome to have that preference disrespected by the scaremongering Brexit rhetoric deployed by the SNP.

I don't think it's tiresome at all (inconvenient but ho hum). If Britain is your country and that identity is that important then fair enough, you're always going to vote No. The people we need to persuade are the not-yets and maybes. There aren't nearly enough solidly British types to carry the day. They can only win again by convincing enough Scots who would otherwise be happy with self-government that it'd be too painful or not worth it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Quotes are all over the place. We have R7 above saying he is happy to be in a union with England, at that point I knew something was wrong!

Anyway point was why do you have an affinity with people from France and Germany rather than your near neighbours down the road?

I would say I have more in common with my colleagues in Leeds who I visit on a regular basis than I would have with people from a different culture and country.

I have various extended family members either from or living in England and from or living in Ireland. I can't say I notice much difference. If anything I get on a bit better with the "foreign" Irish. What passport they have or currency they use or the constitutional arrangements they live under make sod all difference.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry, been away and not keeping up but from SiMar's quoted article the other day:


What about our own tariff rules? What would Britain implement to restrict imports? Edgar Miller explained in The Telegraph how things might look if the British get rid of tariffs altogether once they leave the EU:

So what happens if we remove tariffs against the EU (and the rest of the world), even if the EU (and the rest of the world) does not reciprocate? In summary, a standard world trade model shows unilaterally removing tariffs creates a long-term GDP gain of 4 per cent, a fall of 8 per cent in consumer prices, and an increase in Treasury revenue of more than 7 per cent, compared to the status quo.


I've read similar from others among the buccaneering Brexiteers, ie. that once free from EU restrictions the UK would unilaterally drop tariffs against imports altogether.

So where does that leave the market-4-times-the-size-of-the-EU mantra? Are they going to have to summon up a new plague of locusts? :wink:

[Slavers]

Sorry if I'm not coming across all British and that, but having been kicked in the nuts so many times, I get rather annoyed. It's allowed.:greengrin

Can you tell me what the positives are for leaving the EU, and the Single Market, whilst having to pay Billions to do so. Money which could have gone to the NHS?

Yesterday the Tories refused to protect EU citizens, abandoned child refugees, and ignored the Scottish Parliament. You happy with that?

Whilst the Uk Gov refuse entry to unaccompanied child refugees, the Scottish Gov will increase training for refugee doctors.

I know which type of country I want to live in, and it's not the one that the Tories are manufacturing.

https://t.co/oqJQN1Wnf5

I know this article is around 4 months old, but as we've not yet Brexited, could you tell me if this is acceptable to you?

https://t.co/5wTGCV4xkZ

Mr Ronaldo,

I have been meaning to get back to you so not to be rude. I don't agree with your campaign but i respect your dedication to your cause.

I'm not really a political animal but ill answer your questions.

1 - Positives or leaving the EU: Having our laws made in our lands and by our courts. Taking back control of our boarders. Ridding ourselves of layers of EU Government and the associated costs. I don't like the direction the EU is going, EU Army, closer political ties. It's a failed project with mass unemployment throughout the EU, why be tied to a Union that is failing and the unelected EU commission will put the political project before the people. The vast expense of the politician and administrators salaries within the EU, they are obscene. Being able to trade more freely round the globe without having the EU dictate terms.


2 - Im happy to take genuine child refugees from fleeing from war but not the criminal economic migrants posing as children whenin fact they are full grown adults.

3 - THe effects of brexit will not be known for good and bad for years to come so the article tells us nothing.

[ronaldo7]

Mr Ronaldo,

I have been meaning to get back to you so not to be rude. I don't agree with your campaign but i respect your dedication to your cause.

I'm not really a political animal but ill answer your questions.

1 - Positives or leaving the EU: Having our laws made in our lands and by our courts. Taking back control of our boarders. Ridding ourselves of layers of EU Government and the associated costs. I don't like the direction the EU is going, EU Army, closer political ties. It's a failed project with mass unemployment throughout the EU, why be tied to a Union that is failing and the unelected EU commission will put the political project before the people. The vast expense of the politician and administrators salaries within the EU, they are obscene. Being able to trade more freely round the globe without having the EU dictate terms.


2 - Im happy to take genuine child refugees from fleeing from war but not the criminal economic migrants posing as children whenin fact they are full grown adults.

3 - THe effects of brexit will not be known for good and bad for years to come so the article tells us nothing.

Swap the words EU commission for Prime Minister, and we're on the same side.

Thanks for getting back to me....Eventually:greengrin

[grunt]

Mr Ronaldo,

I have been meaning to get back to you so not to be rude. I don't agree with your campaign but i respect your dedication to your cause.

.

Gosh. The Daily Mail in human form.


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[Slavers]

Gosh. The Daily Mail in human form.


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O jolly gosh! lol

What paper are you?

[grunt]

O jolly gosh! lol

What paper are you?

I don't know. Not the Daily Mail.
Your list of reasons in paragraph 1 reads like a list of DM opinion columns.


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[ronaldo7]

O jolly gosh! lol

What paper are you?

18339

[Slavers]

I don't know. Not the Daily Mail.


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Your not even the pull out section of the daily mail!

[grunt]

Your not even the pull out section of the daily mail!

You know me so well. (I have no idea what you're talking about).


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[ronaldo7]

Nurses leaving the NHS in their droves. It isn't the Brexit effect though:rolleyes:

https://t.co/40VkOWR8d8

[ronaldo7]

Germans say Nien Danke to giving major concessions on Brexit talks, according to a new poll(I know). They would also welcome an Independent Scotland into the EU.

https://t.co/ESvjm3IYWs

[PeeJay]

Germans say Nein Danke to giving major concessions on Brexit talks, according to a new poll(I know). They would also welcome an Independent Scotland into the EU.

https://t.co/ESvjm3IYWs

This isn't really news. It was never ever going to be anything else - and I think most Germans would prefer a united UK still in the EU rather than out - an "independent" Scotland wanting to join the EU would of course be welcomed, assuming Scotland met the criteria for joining ... an unknown ponderable, perhaps? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

This isn't really news. It was never ever going to be anything else - and I think most Germans would prefer a united UK still in the EU rather than out - an "independent" Scotland wanting to join the EU would of course be welcomed, assuming Scotland met the criteria for joining ... an unknown ponderable, perhaps? :greengrin

A hardening of their position then. :greengrin Whilst welcoming and open arms for Scotland :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

This isn't really news. It was never ever going to be anything else - and I think most Germans would prefer a united UK still in the EU rather than out - an "independent" Scotland wanting to join the EU would of course be welcomed, assuming Scotland met the criteria for joining ... an unknown ponderable, perhaps? :greengrin

Apart from a Spanish veto (now ruled out by the Spanish foreign minister) is their any criterion you can think of that Scotland doesn't already meet apart from not being an independent state?

[Hibrandenburg]

This isn't really news. It was never ever going to be anything else - and I think most Germans would prefer a united UK still in the EU rather than out - an "independent" Scotland wanting to join the EU would of course be welcomed, assuming Scotland met the criteria for joining ... an unknown ponderable, perhaps? :greengrin

You obviously know a different kind of German to me as most Germans I know still can't fathom why we chose to reject a chance to govern ourselves. That was pre brexit and now they're just annoyed at the threatening tones coming from Westminster.

Scotland already ticks the boxes for EU membership and there's a growing concensus within the EU that this should and will be openly communicated.

[One Day Soon]

This thread is fantasyland central.

No-one knows what the EU or UK negotiating positions really are, what they will concede on and what they will trade.

Trying to project all of that massive two year uncertainty - frankly I think it will run beyond two years - into the consequences for possible Indyref2 or a theoretical Scottish application to join the EU is like trying to predict the correct score and the scorers for the 2019 Cup Final.

[PeeJay]

You obviously know a different kind of German to me as most Germans I know still can't fathom why we chose to reject a chance to govern ourselves. That was pre brexit and now they're just annoyed at the threatening tones coming from Westminster.

Scotland already ticks the boxes for EU membership and there's a growing concensus within the EU that this should and will be openly communicated.

Well, Germany's a big place - lots of different opinions, "my" Germans disagree with your lot - after all, the EU is about greater integration, not breaking up successful unions! :greengrin

Scotland is not yet independent, so there are no boxes ticked anywhere that actually matter ... when and if that happens, and if Scotland meets the criteria, I see no reason for Scotland not to join the EU.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Apart from a Spanish veto (now ruled out by the Spanish foreign minister) is their any criterion you can think of that Scotland doesn't already meet apart from not being an independent state?

I think the spanish veto thing is often overplayed, but i read that the spanish foreign minister rowed back quite considerably from that position. I think some of his goct colleagues were less than pleased.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This thread is fantasyland central.

No-one knows what the EU or UK negotiating positions really are, what they will concede on and what they will trade.

Trying to project all of that massive two year uncertainty - frankly I think it will run beyond two years - into the consequences for possible Indyref2 or a theoretical Scottish application to join the EU is like trying to predict the correct score and the scorers for the 2019 Cup Final.

Stokes, reprising his magnificent performance in the 2016 fina as Hibs win three trophies in four years.

[The Green Goblin]

I think the spanish veto thing is often overplayed, but i read that the spanish foreign minister rowed back quite considerably from that position. I think some of his goct colleagues were less than pleased.

Where did you read that? Is there a link?

[ronaldo7]

I think the spanish veto thing is often overplayed, but i read that the spanish foreign minister rowed back quite considerably from that position. I think some of his goct colleagues were less than pleased.

Have you got that info SB, I'd be interested to see it bud.:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

Where did you read that? Is there a link?


Have you got that info SB, I'd be interested to see it bud.:aok:

A bit difficult to provide a link to something that doesn't exist (except in his head)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Have you got that info SB, I'd be interested to see it bud.:aok:

I just googled it and cant find it - i think it was the guardian.

Sorry, feel free to disregard accordingly! I must habe read a link that pre-dated his latest comments.

I always thought that it was an empty threat anyway, spain couldnt veto another western european nation who wanted to join, the pressure from elsewhetr in europe would be huge, especially post-brexit. Although obviously they try amd talk tough for demestic reasons.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A bit difficult to provide a link to something that doesn't exist (except in his head)

Whereas whenever you tie yourself in knots on a thread (frequently) you just leave and pop up somewhere else.

If im wrong i am always ready to admit it, amd have done to Ronaldo on a few occasions.

I dont claim to be right all the time, i simply give my views.

I also dont go around collecting links so thay i can post them on here.

Which is obviously more difficult to do if, like you, you come to a debate with a fixed view and then look for evidemce to support your already held view. You are very narrow minded in this respect.

Anyway, if you dont like what i say, stop reading. Then you wouldnt have to resort to snidey little comments.

[ronaldo7]

I just googled it and cant find it - i think it was the guardian.

Sorry, feel free to disregard accordingly! I must habe read a link that pre-dated his latest comments.

I always thought that it was an empty threat anyway, spain couldnt veto another western european nation who wanted to join, the pressure from elsewhetr in europe would be huge, especially post-brexit. Although obviously they try amd talk tough for demestic reasons.

Thanks:aok:

[grunt]

I think the spanish veto thing is often overplayed, but i read that the spanish foreign minister rowed back quite considerably from that position. I think some of his goct colleagues were less than pleased.This it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu?CMP=twt_gu

[JeMeSouviens]

This it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu?CMP=twt_gu

No, that's what I was referring to, the Spanish foreign minister saying they wouldn't veto an iScot application. SHB was indulging in some wishful thinking that he'd subsequently retracted. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No, that's what I was referring to, the Spanish foreign minister saying they wouldn't veto an iScot application. SHB was indulging in some wishful thinking that he'd subsequently retracted. :wink:

I voted yes last time mate!

Not wishful thinking, as i said i never really took the spain issue seriously.

[JeMeSouviens]

I voted yes last time mate!

Not wishful thinking, as i said i never really took the spain issue seriously.

Hah, nothing like the zeal of the convert. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Hah, nothing like the zeal of the convert. :wink:

Touche!

Although i think that could also apply to most of the nationalists on this board! I bet you dont have to go back too far to find a majority of labour voters inhabiting these pages.

For what its worth, im not anti-indy per se, but i am anti the way things have evolved since the last campaign. And i dont like sturgeon, and i think she is a very poor FM.

[JeMeSouviens]

Touche!

Although i think that could also apply to most of the nationalists on this board! I bet you dont have to go back too far to find a majority of labour voters inhabiting these pages.

For what its worth, im not anti-indy per se, but i am anti the way things have evolved since the last campaign. And i dont like sturgeon, and i think she is a very poor FM.

Independence is for life, not just for xmas (or the limited political shelf life of NS). To me the principle that the people who live here should run our own country transcends all the short term noise about which politician's in which job etc.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Independence is for life, not just for xmas (or the limited political shelf life of NS). To me the principle that the people who live here should run our own country transcends all the short term noise about which politician's in which job etc.

Fair enough, and i take the point, but then why is it so urgemt?

All sides agreed to respect the vote in 2014, bit the yes campaign never did. I think that was disingenuous.

The people voted, amd we should all respect that vote IMO.

I understand the argument about brexit etc, i just dont agree that you can decide the rules of a vote after it has happened, and people have voted knowing the rules and the outcomes.

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair enough, and i take the point, but then why is it so urgemt?

All sides agreed to respect the vote in 2014, bit the yes campaign never did. I think that was disingenuous.

The people voted, amd we should all respect that vote IMO.

I understand the argument about brexit etc, i just dont agree that you can decide the rules of a vote after it has happened, and people have voted knowing the rules and the outcomes.

I think you are misunderstanding what was meant by respecting the vote. Respecting the No vote means not declaring UDI, keeping SNP MPs at Westminster, proceeding with Holyrood as before, not mounting any court challenges etc. It doesn't mean ceasing to campaign for independence. Calling another referendum was always going to depend on it being politically acceptable to put it in a Holyrood manifesto, winning an election on that basis and then getting a vote through parliament. I doubt anyone at the top of the SNP thought in 2014 that those circumstances would arise for at least 10 years and yet here we are. The massive surge in SNP membership, the total implosion of the Labour party first in Scotland and now in the UK generally and Brexit represent something of a perfect storm.

As for urgency, there are multiple reasons:

1. Strike while the iron's hot - who knows how long a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood will last?
2. Brexit (imo) represents both a severe challenge and an opportunity. There will be something of an exodus of business from the UK. An iScotland could be the natural home for a good chunk of it. We need to grow our tax base. Otoh, if we don't get out now, I think we'll be the terminally declining backwater of a declining backwater. Our demographics demand immigrants if we want any economic growth. Who's going to want to come to the cold, forgotten corner of Xenophobia-land? I know received wisdom is "everybody wants the best for Scotland" but I can't help suspecting that in certain establishment quarters the "best for Scotland" is being so dependent on other people's money that we won't dare break the status quo.
3. On a personal level, I'm 47, I finally got to see Hibs win the cup after having given up on it. I want to see an independent Scotland and give it time to flourish. Say a ref in 2019, negotiations etc until 2022. It might take another 10 years after that until we're at the level of similar small European nations (ie. all the best places in the world to live) and I can go around saying I told you so. :na na: Time waits for no man ... :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think you are misunderstanding what was meant by respecting the vote. Respecting the No vote means not declaring UDI, keeping SNP MPs at Westminster, proceeding with Holyrood as before, not mounting any court challenges etc. It doesn't mean ceasing to campaign for independence. Calling another referendum was always going to depend on it being politically acceptable to put it in a Holyrood manifesto, winning an election on that basis and then getting a vote through parliament. I doubt anyone at the top of the SNP thought in 2014 that those circumstances would arise for at least 10 years and yet here we are. The massive surge in SNP membership, the total implosion of the Labour party first in Scotland and now in the UK generally and Brexit represent something of a perfect storm.

As for urgency, there are multiple reasons:

1. Strike while the iron's hot - who knows how long a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood will last?
2. Brexit (imo) represents both a severe challenge and an opportunity. There will be something of an exodus of business from the UK. An iScotland could be the natural home for a good chunk of it. We need to grow our tax base. Otoh, if we don't get out now, I think we'll be the terminally declining backwater of a declining backwater. Our demographics demand immigrants if we want any economic growth. Who's going to want to come to the cold, forgotten corner of Xenophobia-land? I know received wisdom is "everybody wants the best for Scotland" but I can't help suspecting that in certain establishment quarters the "best for Scotland" is being so dependent on other people's money that we won't dare break the status quo.
3. On a personal level, I'm 47, I finally got to see Hibs win the cup after having given up on it. I want to see an independent Scotland and give it time to flourish. Say a ref in 2019, negotiations etc until 2022. It might take another 10 years after that until we're at the level of similar small European nations (ie. all the best places in the world to live) and I can go around saying I told you so. :na na: Time waits for no man ... :wink:

Your points are well made.

I agree Brexit could be an opportunity, but i think it wont be - in reality though i think any relocations will be to countries that wont leave / be forced to accede and also at the geographic heart of europe.

I disagree about respecting the result. The yes campaign started campaigning for indyref2 almost the day after. Once in a lifetime and once in a generation were phrases used liberallu by senior nats. That has proved to be disengenuous, because the SNP have sniffed out a political opportunity, and so have abandoned that position. That is the definition of political opportunism. Im not saying the SNP party are wrong to do that, this is politics, but lets not pretend it is anything else. As for the greens breaking their manifesto promise to support it, well i dont see how that is any different to what the lib dems did in 2011, and they still get pilloried by the right-on brigade in politics. Double standards in politics? Whod have thunk it of the nice, cuddly greens eh?

Your point about immigration is valid IMO, amd we will need to see how that plays out.

[weecounty hibby]

I really think you are missing the point of the Scottish NATIONAL Party. They have actually Ben campaigning for independence since before they were actually called the Scottish National Party. No one can be in any doubt whatsoever what the SNP ultimate goal is. It is independence but until they get there it is to improve Scotland as much as possible within the constraints of a devolved government. Something that I believe they do and so it appears do a large section of the electorate. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too much longer for independence to happen

[grunt]

I agree Brexit could be an opportunity, but i think it wont be - in reality though i think any relocations will be to countries that wont leave / be forced to accede and also at the geographic heart of europe.The way I read this, the way you said "any relocations"; do you think there may not be relocation of businesses from the UK as a result of Brexit?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The way I read this, the way you said "any relocations"; do you think there may not be relocation of businesses from the UK as a result of Brexit?

No i didnt mean that, i know that many companies will move functions / jobs / offices / investments into the EU, for a whole raft of reasons as a result of brexit. The sector i work in will have quite profound ramifications.

What i mean is, that having beem forced to relocate once due to politics, they are unlikely to move somewhere where politics continues to be a live and uncertain issue.

I think they would be risk averse, and move to EU heartland locations.

[grunt]

No i didnt mean that, i know that many companies will move functions / jobs / offices / investments into the EU, for a whole raft of reasons.

What i mean is, that having beem forced to relocate once due to politics, they are unlikely to move somewhere where politics continues to be a live and uncertain issue.

Thank you. Your second point above is why we need to get #scotref referendum done soon.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I really think you are missing the point of the Scottish NATIONAL Party. They have actually Ben campaigning for independence since before they were actually called the Scottish National Party. No one can be in any doubt whatsoever what the SNP ultimate goal is. It is independence but until they get there it is to improve Scotland as much as possible within the constraints of a devolved government. Something that I believe they do and so it appears do a large section of the electorate. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too much longer for independence to happen

No i get that point, im well aware of the history of the nats.

So are you saying that the SNP lied previously, talking of once in a generation, respecting the result etc?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thank you. Your second point above is why we need to get #scotref referendum done soon.

And what if there is an accession period, which seems likely?

Why would any company take that risk, when it could move to mainland europe instead?

[grunt]

And what if there is an accession period, which seems likely?Who says this? I think it's too early to say what is likely, or what's not likely.
We have no idea. However, we are currently in the EU. It would make sense to me that the simplest approach for all sides would be for Scotland to keep our membership by not leaving. Saves all the uncertainty.

[marinello59]

I really think you are missing the point of the Scottish NATIONAL Party. They have actually Ben campaigning for independence since before they were actually called the Scottish National Party. No one can be in any doubt whatsoever what the SNP ultimate goal is. It is independence but until they get there it is to improve Scotland as much as possible within the constraints of a devolved government. Something that I believe they do and so it appears do a large section of the electorate. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too much longer for independence to happen

I think all of our devolved Governments have done a pretty good job whether it was Labour, Labour -Lib Dems or SNP. Until this one. Sturgeon's Government has been pretty disappointing on a number of fronts.
I also hope we don't have too long to wait until Independence but it is going to take a lot of people who don't support the SNP to achieve it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Who says this? I think it's too early to say what is likely, or what's not likely.
We have no idea. However, we are currently in the EU. It would make sense to me that the simplest approach for all sides would be for Scotland to keep our membership by not leaving. Saves all the uncertainty.

It just seems most likely to me. We are members as part of the UK, scotland is not, nor has it ever been, an EU member state.

Plus, it seems highly unlikely that Scotland would be allowed to just transition into the UKs place, with the UKs particularly favourable terms.

Plus it seems quite fanciful that Scotland could habe completed the separation negotiations with the UK before the UK leaves the EU.

And if it is even the remotest of possibilities, very few, if any companies would take the risk, IMO.

And lastly, all of this uncertainty wont be resolved for years, even on sturgeon's proposed timetable. Companies will be making these plans now i would imagine.

[Just Alf]

It just seems most likely to me. We are members as part of the UK, scotland is not, nor has it ever been, an EU member state.

Plus, it seems highly unlikely that Scotland would be allowed to just transition into the UKs place, with the UKs particularly favourable terms.

Plus it seems quite fanciful that Scotland could habe completed the separation negotiations with the UK before the UK leaves the EU.

And if it is even the remotest of possibilities, very few, if any companies would take the risk, IMO.

And lastly, all of this uncertainty wont be resolved for years, even on sturgeon's proposed timetable. Companies will be making these plans now i would imagine.
The thing is though it was,made very clear last time that if one element left the UK and the other wanted to stay in then the "stayer" would essentially continue as before, if that had all all been agreed etc previously why not the exact same in the event of a separation this time around?


Got say also, you keep flogging this once in a generation thing avoiding the full quote which added "unless something major happened to change the situation" (paraphrasing!) Which clearly changes the argument you make,

It's similar to the yessers that bring up the "Scots don't have the genes/DNA to make the correct decision" quote from Ruth Davidson (??) ,,,, yes,the words were said but in context meant the opposite!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The thing is though it was,made very clear last time that if one element left the UK and the other wanted to stay in then the "stayer" would essentially continue as before, if that had all all been agreed etc previously why not the exact same in the event of a separation this time around?


Got say also, you keep flogging this once in a generation thing avoiding the full quote which added "unless something major happened to change the situation" (paraphrasing!) Which clearly changes the argument you make,

It's similar to the yessers that bring up the "Scots don't have the genes/DNA to make the correct decision" quote from Ruth Davidson (??) ,,,, yes,the words were said but in context meant the opposite!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


Once in a generation was said many times as i recall, but i take your point. The SNP allowing themselves enough wiggle room to jump on change of circumstamces should the opportunity arise. Still doesn't seem like respecting the result to me.

Because the UK is a member state, scotland isnt.


Thats just my take on it, im not saying its certain
. But the point remains, if there is any doubt, most companies would just discount us, given they would habe 27 other options, imo.

[Colr]

Once in a generation was said many times as i recall, but i take your point. The SNP allowing themselves enough wiggle room to jump on change of circumstamces should the opportunity arise. Still doesn't seem like respecting the result to me.

Because the UK is a member state, scotland isnt.


Thats just my take on it, im not saying its certain
. But the point remains, if there is any doubt, most companies would just discount us, given they would habe 27 other options, imo.

Maybe a referendum every 10 years ad infinitum.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe a referendum every 10 years ad infinitum.

Well we are on course, by the SNPs timetable, for two in only 5 or 6 years.

[Just Alf]

Once in a generation was said many times as i recall, but i take your point. The SNP allowing themselves enough wiggle room to jump on change of circumstamces should the opportunity arise. Still doesn't seem like respecting the result to me.

Because the UK is a member state, scotland isnt.


Thats just my take on it, im not saying its certain
. But the point remains, if there is any doubt, most companies would just discount us, given they would habe 27 other options, imo.


Maybe a referendum every 10 years ad infinitum.

That wriggle room is still a fact though.... And for what it's worth, if there is another referendum and it's the same result, while not happy personally, I'd 100% agree that that's it for the foreseeable as I don't really see anything on the horizon that would invalidate any result.

Re the UK being a member, the argument last time was that the UK would no longer exist but if the main element wanted to remain a member then it could seemlessly take over the pre-existing UK membership/commitments...... Actually, as I think on that a bit more... Maybe an iScotland wouldn't want that and would want to start afresh! (Thinking about any historic uk debts!)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That wriggle room is still a fact though.... And for what it's worth, if there is another referendum and it's the same result, while not happy personally, I'd 100% agree that that's it for the foreseeable as I don't really see anything on the horizon that would invalidate any result.

Re the UK being a member, the argument last time was that the UK would no longer exist but if the main element wanted to remain a member then it could seemlessly take over the pre-existing UK membership/commitments...... Actually, as I think on that a bit more... Maybe an iScotland wouldn't want that and would want to start afresh! (Thinking about any historic uk debts!)

Well yeah, iys a fact because the SNP have made it so, amd left themselves and their green lackeys as arbiters of what may or may not trigger another vote.

The green lackeys habe broken their manifesto promise i believe, to deliver the vote, as of course the SNP did not get aajority to support their plans, unlike last tims when they had a majority government amd the unanimous support of the parliament, amd thd UK govt.

Ok, so we agree on the principle of no 'neverendum', we just bdraw the line at different places. That seems reasonable!

i dont know enough about what happened last time, but i do lnow that EU accession can be a long, drawn out process and so i think that some people might not be happy with us dropping into a place.

Maybe not, but i believe the UK is one of very few net comtributors to the EU, and it must represent around 15% of the population, amd probably a greater share of GDP. Scotland cannot hope to fill that, amd the liabilities would i suppose hablve to be agreed between the UK amd the EU.

The EU is certainly going to have a big headache filling that gap in its budget, especially as rhe EUs solutiob to discontent about the EU is, predictably, more EU.

[ronaldo7]

This is only to be expected. The EU will draw back their institutions post brexit.

https://t.co/qygzvfu4Fc

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is only to be expected. The EU will draw back their institutions post brexit.

https://t.co/qygzvfu4Fc

That had been known for a while.

It's a big blow because a lot of companies base their regulatory functions here because those orgs are here. Those jobs will likely move with the agencies.

However it wont be simple, as the UK medicines regulator acrually carries out lots of the work on behalf of the EMA, sobthey will need to move and expand quite condiderably i think.

[Just Alf]

That had been known for a while.

It's a big blow because a lot of companies base their regulatory functions here because those orgs are here. Those jobs will likely move with the agencies.

However it wont be simple, as the UK medicines regulator acrually carries out lots of the work on behalf of the EMA, sobthey will need to move and expand quite condiderably i think.

Totally off piste..... Do you happen to have a Samsung phone?

Edit: should add, I have one and since the last system update the keyboard and predictive text function is a nightmare, it's almost like it deliberately puts in crap!
More for the pet peeves thread!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Totally off piste..... Do you happen to have a Samsung phone?

Edit: should add, I have one and since the last system update the keyboard and predictive text function is a nightmare, it's almost like it deliberately puts in crap!
More for the pet peeves thread!

I do indeed - effing hate it!

Generally find the lack of a tactile keyboard very annoying. Used to have an old school blackberry with work, much preferred it

[JeMeSouviens]

Your points are well made.

I agree Brexit could be an opportunity, but i think it wont be - in reality though i think any relocations will be to countries that wont leave / be forced to accede and also at the geographic heart of europe.

I disagree about respecting the result. The yes campaign started campaigning for indyref2 almost the day after. Once in a lifetime and once in a generation were phrases used liberallu by senior nats. That has proved to be disengenuous, because the SNP have sniffed out a political opportunity, and so have abandoned that position. That is the definition of political opportunism. Im not saying the SNP party are wrong to do that, this is politics, but lets not pretend it is anything else. As for the greens breaking their manifesto promise to support it, well i dont see how that is any different to what the lib dems did in 2011, and they still get pilloried by the right-on brigade in politics. Double standards in politics? Whod have thunk it of the nice, cuddly greens eh?

Your point about immigration is valid IMO, amd we will need to see how that plays out.

Of course it's political opportunism. If you are in politics to try and secure political independence for Scotland, you'd be a fool to sit on your hands. If opportunity knocks ...

As for the Greens, you are wildly over the top in attacking them and the constant use of pejoratives (lackeys etc) is not helpful. Here's what their manifesto said:


Citizens as legislators. Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the
legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number
of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of
devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the
Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of
deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum
is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven
by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish
Greens will campaign for independence.

Stating a preferred way of triggering a referendum hardly precludes any other way and what is a vote achieved in a proportionally elected parliament if it is not "the will of the people"?

Comparing that to making a big photo-op hoo-ha of signing an *explicit pledge* not to raise tuition fees and then voting in favour of raising tuition fees is night and day.

[JeMeSouviens]

The thing is though it was,made very clear last time that if one element left the UK and the other wanted to stay in then the "stayer" would essentially continue as before, if that had all all been agreed etc previously why not the exact same in the event of a separation this time around?


Got say also, you keep flogging this once in a generation thing avoiding the full quote which added "unless something major happened to change the situation" (paraphrasing!) Which clearly changes the argument you make,

It's similar to the yessers that bring up the "Scots don't have the genes/DNA to make the correct decision" quote from Ruth Davidson (??) ,,,, yes,the words were said but in context meant the opposite!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Johann Lamont (basically the same :wink:). She said the Scots are not "genetically programmed to make political decisions". It was clear from the context she meant we don't have super powers of decision making but it was, as you say, seized on to mean we have a lesser ability to make decisions. I think most of the outrage came from people who saw the quote and just assumed their own context.

She totally misses the point anyway, the problem is not that the UK gov couldn't take good decisions for Scotland, it's that they (quite rightly) don't put much store in such a peripheral backwater when making them. In a conflict of interest, the greater number of people and money making power in SE England will always trump us. Especially when "their" party is in power.

[Just Alf]

Johann Lamont (basically the same :wink:). She said the Scots are not "genetically programmed to make political decisions". It was clear from the context she meant we don't have super powers of decision making but it was, as you say, seized on to mean we have a lesser ability to make decisions. I think most of the outrage came from people who saw the quote and just assumed their own context.

She totally misses the point anyway, the problem is not that the UK gov couldn't take good decisions for Scotland, it's that they (quite rightly) don't put much store in such a peripheral backwater when making them. In a conflict of interest, the greater number of people and money making power in SE England will always trump us. Especially when "their" party is in power.

Ta, remember that now. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

Of course it's political opportunism. If you are in politics to try and secure political independence for Scotland, you'd be a fool to sit on your hands. If opportunity knocks ...

As for the Greens, you are wildly over the top in attacking them and the constant use of pejoratives (lackeys etc) is not helpful. Here's what their manifesto said:



Stating a preferred way of triggering a referendum hardly precludes any other way and what is a vote achieved in a proportionally elected parliament if it is not "the will of the people"?

Comparing that to making a big photo-op hoo-ha of signing an *explicit pledge* not to raise tuition fees and then voting in favour of raising tuition fees is night and day.

Ever so slightly ironic that they proposed a referendum to decide if there should be a referendum one year after the referendum!

As it is their policy would seem to preclude them from supporting the SNP in the way that they did.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ever so slightly ironic that they proposed a referendum to decide if there should be a referendum one year after the referendum!

As it is their policy would seem to preclude them from supporting the SNP in the way that they did.

They proposed a 2nd referendum should come about by "the will of the people".

They stated their preferred way to demonstrate that was via a petition (note, not a referendum).

They didn't state whether any other specific ways were acceptable or unacceptable.

Hence they haven't broken any commitment.

This seems like simple logic. Am I missing something obvious?

[RyeSloan]

They proposed a 2nd referendum should come about by "the will of the people".

They stated their preferred way to demonstrate that was via a petition (note, not a referendum).

They didn't state whether any other specific ways were acceptable or unacceptable.

Hence they haven't broken any commitment.

This seems like simple logic. Am I missing something obvious?

True...I didn't read it properly[emoji12]

Even worse though I suppose that they promote a policy but give no details of what the threshold for said petition would be. Then despite the absence of said petition supported the SNP anyway.

And now we are meant to believe there was other ways they would interpret the will of the people it's just that they didn't bother including or excluding any so basically did what they wanted?

Not that I'm overly fussed...Harvie's heed is in the clouds as far as I am concerned even if the greens do have a few half decent polices to go along with their half baked ones!

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course it's political opportunism. If you are in politics to try and secure political independence for Scotland, you'd be a fool to sit on your hands. If opportunity knocks ...

As for the Greens, you are wildly over the top in attacking them and the constant use of pejoratives (lackeys etc) is not helpful. Here's what their manifesto said:



Stating a preferred way of triggering a referendum hardly precludes any other way and what is a vote achieved in a proportionally elected parliament if it is not "the will of the people"?

Comparing that to making a big photo-op hoo-ha of signing an *explicit pledge* not to raise tuition fees and then voting in favour of raising tuition fees is night and day.

This 100%

Well said that man.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

They proposed a 2nd referendum should come about by "the will of the people".

They stated their preferred way to demonstrate that was via a petition (note, not a referendum).

They didn't state whether any other specific ways were acceptable or unacceptable.

Hence they haven't broken any commitment.

This seems like simple logic. Am I missing something obvious?

But they also stated it shouldnt be driven by political calculation, which you conceded above is exactly what is driving the SNP?

Seems contradictory?

[JeMeSouviens]

But they also stated it shouldnt be driven by political calculation, which you conceded above is exactly what is driving the SNP?

Seems contradictory?

You're really clutching at straws now.

Bottom line - the party that won the election and formed the government brought an explicitly worded commitment from its manifesto before parliament and won a majority.

You can argue about a minor party whose votes were needed running contrary to the spirit of part of a section of their manifesto if you stretch it a bit but since they're not even a minority partner in the government that's irrelevant anyway.

The question for all of us now is do we support the legitimacy of our parliament to speak for our people. As ever, some do, some don't. Nation or region? You pays your money ...

[northstandhibby]

True...I didn't read it properly[emoji12]

Even worse though I suppose that they promote a policy but give no details of what the threshold for said petition would be. Then despite the absence of said petition supported the SNP anyway.

And now we are meant to believe there was other ways they would interpret the will of the people it's just that they didn't bother including or excluding any so basically did what they wanted?

Not that I'm overly fussed...Harvie's heed is in the clouds as far as I am concerned even if the greens do have a few half decent polices to go along with their half baked ones!

This is what is literally terrifying ordinary working folk from voting for independence. They have no idea what would come post independence. A great deal of the Nationalist folk on here appear to be ideologically attuned to stripping wealth and assets as opposed to rewarding folk who generate taxes and work very hard in their careers/jobs. High taxation of 80% or more would drive folk to up sticks or give up their careers/jobs for why on earth would they want to work hard only for the government to strip them of most of their hard earned?

No-one knows what the SNP and/or the Greens would get up to in light of an independent Scotland. All I keep hearing from the Nationalists is ideological wealth redistribution that's not conducive to a fair and balanced society or economy.

glory glory

[johnbc70]

Not done the research but has there not been a number of votes in the Scottish Parliament that went against the SNP but they just ignored the result anyway?

What happened to the parliament speaking for our people on those occasions.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're really clutching at straws now.

Bottom line - the party that won the election and formed the government brought an explicitly worded commitment from its manifesto before parliament and won a majority.

You can argue about a minor party whose votes were needed running contrary to the spirit of part of a section of their manifesto if you stretch it a bit but since they're not even a minority partner in the government that's irrelevant anyway.

The question for all of us now is do we support the legitimacy of our parliament to speak for our people. As ever, some do, some don't. Nation or region? You pays your money ...

Well we can agree to disagree - the greens breaking, bending or liberally interpreting their manifesto, as you say everyone can make up their own mind on that.

What is beyond doubt is that the parliament voted a motiob through, by a thin majority.

It is not the unanimous will of the parliament (as it was ladt time) amd i think that represents the fact that there is nothing like a consensus among Scots as to wherher or not there should be another vote.

Amd as others have pointed out, a motion voted through by parliament doesnt necessarily mean anything. It is not the samr as passing legislation, or even a statutory instrument.

I think many people are happy to accept the proposition that we do not need anorher vote, until we are able to assess the impact of brexit.

With that level of perspective, we can make ad informed a decision as it is possible to make.

[ronaldo7]

Well we can agree to disagree - the greens breaking, bending or liberally interpreting their manifesto, as you say everyone can make up their own mind on that.

What is beyond doubt is that the parliament voted a motiob through, by a thin majority.

It is not the unanimous will of the parliament (as it was ladt time) amd i think that represents the fact that there is nothing like a consensus among Scots as to wherher or not there should be another vote.

Amd as others have pointed out, a motion voted through by parliament doesnt necessarily mean anything. It is not the samr as passing legislation, or even a statutory instrument.

I think many people are happy to accept the proposition that we do not need anorher vote, until we are able to assess the impact of brexit.

With that level of perspective, we can make ad informed a decision as it is possible to make.

When was this?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

When was this?

The vote for the last indy ref, was it not backed by the whole parliament?

[ronaldo7]

The vote for the last indy ref, was it not backed by the whole parliament?

I don't know, that's why I asked you. It was you that mentioned it, right?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't know, that's why I asked you. It was you that mentioned it, right?

Yeah well i think it was, if memory serves.

[Just Alf]

This is what is literally terrifying ordinary working folk from voting for independence. They have no idea what would come post independence. A great deal of the Nationalist folk on here appear to be ideologically attuned to stripping wealth and assets as opposed to rewarding folk who generate taxes and work very hard in their careers/jobs. High taxation of 80% or more would drive folk to up sticks or give up their careers/jobs for why on earth would they want to work hard only for the government to strip them of most of their hard earned?

No-one knows what the SNP and/or the Greens would get up to in light of an independent Scotland. All I keep hearing from the Nationalists is ideological wealth redistribution that's not conducive to a fair and balanced society or economy.

glory glory

bit in bold. thatll be down to the government of the day. while Ill be voting SNP just now, in an independent Scotland they'd be struggling to get my vote!

[northstandhibby]

bit in bold. thatll be down to the government of the day. while Ill be voting SNP just now, in an independent Scotland they'd be struggling to get my vote!

So you're singular aim in voting for the SNP is to separate Scotland from the UK regardless of Nationalists proposed wealth and asset stripping correlated with excessively high taxation to redistribute wealth?

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Dr Fox might have to brush up on his deal making capabilities. All that effort for SFA.

http://chasecarbon.com/?id=855019&24a503b7#

[Just Alf]

So you're singular aim in voting for the SNP is to separate Scotland from the UK regardless of Nationalists proposed wealth and asset stripping correlated with excessively high taxation to redistribute wealth?

glory glory

It was an over simplification I suppose, but I really do think that the Tories (and Labour) will become much better represented in an iScotland parliment so even if the SNP were in power the others would be able to prevent any excesses.
Unlike the the UK governmental model where the opposition seem powerless to stop anything (see rape clause thread).

[pacoluna]

The motion would have been passed anyway without the Greens. Its the SNPs manifesto pledge that will be delivered not the Greens. So why are those who haven't given a care in the world about previous Green manifestos suddenly up in arms?

[JeMeSouviens]

So you're singular aim in voting for the SNP is to separate Scotland from the UK regardless of Nationalists proposed wealth and asset stripping correlated with excessively high taxation to redistribute wealth?

glory glory

Do you see any evidence of the centrist SNP, the slightly right of centre Labour party, the frankly-****-knows-where-they-are-illiberal Liberals, or the rabid f-the-poor Tories proposing any of these things? Who else exactly do you think is going to form the government in iScotland? A Green surge of tsunami proportions, a Tommy Sheridan led revolution? Over the long term I hope we move to being a Scandi style country that's not frightened of proposing decent public services or setting an appropriate level of taxation to pay for them but I don't expect the electorate to suddenly start voting for that overnight.

Your hyperbole is somewhat unwarranted.

[JeMeSouviens]

The motion would have been passed anyway without the Greens. Its the SNPs manifesto pledge that will be delivered not the Greens. So why are those who haven't given a care in the world about previous Green manifestos suddenly up in arms?

Dunno? Could it be ... (gasp) ... political opportunism? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Dunno? Could it be ... (gasp) ... political opportunism? :wink:


Snap Election is political opportunism!! :wink:

[makaveli1875]

Snap Election is political opportunism!! :wink:

its an opportunity for the SNP to put indyref2 in their manifesto and see how many people vote for it :aok:

[Mon Dieu4]

its an opportunity for the SNP to put indyref2 in their manifesto and see how many people vote for it :aok:

They did that last year in the scottish election and won

[Moulin Yarns]

Thin edge of the wedge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39640508?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39628713&link_location=live-reporting-story

Two EU agencies employing more than 1,000 in London will definitely move to the continent, despite UK attempts to keep them after Brexit, officials say.

[Glory Lurker]

The story on tomorrow's Guardian's front page has cat-into-pigeons potential -EU parliament comment about Article 50 being reversible. Appreciate Parliament does not have ability to make a legal judgement, but politics would prevail if the will was there. Imagine a fair bit of Brexiter Horlick-spluttering at the moment.

[ronaldo7]

GMB blame the Tories for the loss of more jobs due to Brexit.

https://t.co/ircpmiouRd

[ronaldo7]

Reorganisation, cost savings, or just Brexit?

https://t.co/tyGwLfuevL

[Moulin Yarns]

Letters from David Davis to Scottish Government and back again

http://www.parliament.scot/S5_European/General%20Documents/CTEER_Minister_M.Russell_2017.04.27.pdf

[northstandhibby]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-lead-labour-cut-seven-points-general-election-poll-latest-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-a7704796.html

Seems Jeremy might just leave a decent platform for the next leader (Hopefully D Milliband) if the polls keep rising and its not as wide a margin of defeat as some might predict.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-lead-labour-cut-seven-points-general-election-poll-latest-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-a7704796.html

Seems Jeremy might just leave a decent platform for the next leader (Hopefully D Milliband) if the polls keep rising and its not as wide a margin of defeat as some might predict.

glory glory

I'm curious why you think David Milliband would give up his very good day job to be the next leader of the opposition when he tried and failed to get the job before.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-lead-labour-cut-seven-points-general-election-poll-latest-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-a7704796.html

Seems Jeremy might just leave a decent platform for the next leader (Hopefully D Milliband) if the polls keep rising and its not as wide a margin of defeat as some might predict.

glory glory

Spoke to someone ladt night who thinks labour will do fairly well, amd tory majority will only be aroubd 60 seats

[northstandhibby]

I'm curious why you think David Milliband would give up his very good day job to be the next leader of the opposition when he tried and failed to get the job before.

The only person who could answer that is David Milliband himself. Doesn't stop me hoping though.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/84026/could-david-miliband-return-to-uk-politics-in-2017

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Seems the EU are united and piling on the pressure. They're not messing around and there's some really interesting parts to this piece.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/eu-threatens-theresa-may-on-trade-talks-and-its-citizens-rights/ar-BBAwGDt?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

A wee parody for our futures. Check out the photo on the wall at around 30 minutes.:greengrin

https://t.co/eO5YYviDHj

[Hibrandenburg]

A wee parody for our futures. Check out the photo on the wall at around 30 minutes.:greengrin

https://t.co/eO5YYviDHj

:thumbsup:

[ronaldo7]

For those on Twitter, have a look @JeremyCliffe. He's got some leaked information on the meeting between May and Junker recently.

[Moulin Yarns]

For those on Twitter, have a look @JeremyCliffe. He's got some leaked information on the meeting between May and Junker recently.

I like number 25 :wink:

[grunt]

I like number 25 :wink:I don't. If talks collapse then we'll be out with no agreement. #Disaster.

[Moulin Yarns]

The only person who could answer that is David Milliband himself. Doesn't stop me hoping though.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/84026/could-david-miliband-return-to-uk-politics-in-2017

glory glory

My bet would be on Sadiq Khan in 2020, after his stint as London Mayor, as the most likely Labour leader to have a chance against May

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't. If talks collapse then we'll be out with no agreement. #Disaster.

Collapse, then UK goes crawling back asking forgiveness and re-admittance to the EU. OR ISCOT entry.

[Colr]

My bet would be on Sadiq Khan in 2020, after his stint as London Mayor, as the most likely Labour leader to have a chance against May

His performance as mayor hasn't exactly lit up the political stage. I can't see it.

[Mr Grieves]

For those on Twitter, have a look @JeremyCliffe. He's got some leaked information on the meeting between May and Junker recently.

www.twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

Jeremy Cliffe is a journalist for The Economist, based in Berlin, and the linked set of tweets are a basic translation of a report from the German newspaper, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

It shows May and the tories to be completely delusional.

[Mr Grieves]

www.twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

Jeremy Cliffe is a journalist for The Economist, based in Berlin, and the linked set of tweets are a basic translation of a report from the German newspaper, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

It shows May and the tories to be completely delusional.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#70b776444f04

This article makes it easier to read

[Just Alf]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#70b776444f04

This article makes it easier to read

Easier to read :aok:

BUT not good reading! :rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

Easier to read :aok:

BUT not good reading! :rolleyes:

Utterly terrifying! The patients are in charge of the mad house.

This ploy of putting Brexiteers in charge of negotiating the exit looks bonkers.

TBH this is the reason she has gone to the polls. A bigger
Majority and she can draw the knives out for the loony right of the Tories. Put some progressive middle of the road Tories in charge and end up with something not to dissimilar to what we have today with free movement and tariff free trade.

That will give them 5 years before another GE, and then who knows, Labour might be credible by then.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

For those on Twitter, have a look @JeremyCliffe. He's got some leaked information on the meeting between May and Junker recently.

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

****.

[Colr]

Interesting comments from Macron about Frexit if the EU doesn't reform.

The EU didn't take Cameron seriously but with the UK vote and both French presidential candidates callong for change or exit, I wonder if they will now.

Would an EU based around Germany be very appealling to smaller countries?

[makaveli1875]

Interesting comments from Macron about Frexit if the EU doesn't reform.

The EU didn't take Cameron seriously but with the UK vote and both French presidential candidates callong for change or exit, I wonder if they will now.

Would an EU based around Germany be very appealling to smaller countries?

macron must be a rabid right wing little francer :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting comments from Macron about Frexit if the EU doesn't reform.

The EU didn't take Cameron seriously but with the UK vote and both French presidential candidates callong for change or exit, I wonder if they will now.

Would an EU based around Germany be very appealling to smaller countries?

(Surprisingly) he is being wilfully misrepresented in the pro-Brexit press. He doesn't say he will be in favour of or pursue "Frexit", but that it or support for the FN will come back in France if there is no reform.

[RyeSloan]

(Surprisingly) he is being wilfully misrepresented in the pro-Brexit press. He doesn't say he will be in favour of or pursue "Frexit", but that it or support for the FN will come back in France if there is no reform.

I didn't read anything that suggests he was in favour of Frexit but his comments are pretty clear...a lot of people are unhappy with the EU and it's direction of travel and that unless it reforms substantially that disenchantment will only grow.

Good luck to him on the reform front...with 27 nations now involved meaningful reform would seem to be an impossible task.

[JeMeSouviens]

I didn't read anything that suggests he was in favour of Frexit but his comments are pretty clear...a lot of people are unhappy with the EU and it's direction of travel and that unless it reforms substantially that disenchantment will only grow.

Good luck to him on the reform front...with 27 nations now involved meaningful reform would seem to be an impossible task.

Yes, think I jumped the gun based on inaccurate twitter pish. Have sternly chastised myself for such a schoolboy error! :tsk tsk:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Utterly terrifying! The patients are in charge of the mad house.

This ploy of putting Brexiteers in charge of negotiating the exit looks bonkers.

TBH this is the reason she has gone to the polls. A bigger
Majority and she can draw the knives out for the loony right of the Tories. Put some progressive middle of the road Tories in charge and end up with something not to dissimilar to what we have today with free movement and tariff free trade.

That will give them 5 years before another GE, and then who knows, Labour might be credible by then.

J

I agree this is her plan - i certainly hope so!

[northstandhibby]

I agree this is her plan - i certainly hope so!

Tony Blair sounds as if he's on the comeback trail with the same objective in mind for Labour, a shift back to the center ground. He's not my first choice to lead the party back to steadier waters, I would much prefer D Milliband to steer the ship.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I didn't read anything that suggests he was in favour of Frexit but his comments are pretty clear...a lot of people are unhappy with the EU and it's direction of travel and that unless it reforms substantially that disenchantment will only grow.

Good luck to him on the reform front...with 27 nations now involved meaningful reform would seem to be an impossible task.

I think pressure on the EU will grow. It is dysfunctional and now has a whole set of objectives of its own, many of which are counter to (in reality or just in perception) to many of the people who ultimately pay for it.

It really needs to be reformed and repurposed. I just wish it had happened sooner.

[Hibrandenburg]

Tony Blair sounds as if he's on the comeback trail with the same objective in mind for Labour, a shift back to the center ground. He's not my first choice to lead the party back to steadier waters, I would much prefer D Milliband to steer the ship.

glory glory

This is the kind of thinking I can't get my head around. You obviously are a labour supporter who supports the party through thick and thin. Now that kind of loyalty is admirable in a football fan but has no place in politics imo. If the party is not catering to your needs then it's time to seek someone else who is and not blindly support an organisation until it may or may not represent your views.

[makaveli1875]

This is the kind of thinking I can't get my head around. You obviously are a labour supporter who supports the party through thick and thin. Now that kind of loyalty is admirable in a football fan but has no place in politics imo. If the party is not catering to your needs then it's time to seek someone else who is and not blindly support an organisation until it may or may not represent your views.

what do you do when none of the parties cater for your needs , a situation alot of labour voters are in ?

[northstandhibby]

This is the kind of thinking I can't get my head around. You obviously are a labour supporter who supports the party through thick and thin. Now that kind of loyalty is admirable in a football fan but has no place in politics imo. If the party is not catering to your needs then it's time to seek someone else who is and not blindly support an organisation until it may or may not represent your views.

Applauds for the intelligent point.

Its something I and very probably many others may have to give some very serious thought to if Tony Blair is ever re-crowned which I don't think will happen as he's a far too divisive figure. It may be he's simply lending weight for some other candidate to run against Corbyn.

I'm desperately hoping D Milliband who for me has the qualities required to unite the party shows himself.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Applauds for the intelligent point.

Its something I and very probably many others may have to give some very serious thought to if Tony Blair is ever re-crowned which I don't think will happen as he's a far too divisive figure. It may be he's simply lending weight for some other candidate to run against Corbyn.

I'm desperately hoping D Milliband who for me has the qualities required to unite the party shows himself.

glory glory

I've pointed out before that D Milliband has a high profile job as President of International Rescue. He isn't even an MP. So, unlikely to give up his day job, and would need to get re-elected to parliament before he could fulfill your dream.

[Colr]

(surprisingly) he is being wilfully misrepresented in the pro-brexit press. He doesn't say he will be in favour of or pursue "frexit", but that it or support for the fn will come back in france if there is no reform.

fake news!!!!!

[Colr]

Tony Blair sounds as if he's on the comeback trail with the same objective in mind for Labour, a shift back to the center ground. He's not my first choice to lead the party back to steadier waters, I would much prefer D Milliband to steer the ship.

glory glory

I'm rather hoping he will not lead as he is a bit toxic (I'm sorry to say). However, I would be deligted if him, Mandelson (and maybe Brown) would fulfill their roles as grandees and help the next wave up and into power. ******ifnI can identify who that might be, though. One legacy of his tenure has been a really ****ty intake of MPs.

[xyz23jc]

I don't. If talks collapse then we'll be out with no agreement. #Disaster.

On the plus side, endless reruns of Dads Army and It Ain't Half Hot Mum to look forward to! Better Together.

[grunt]

On the plus side, endless reruns of Dads Army and It Ain't Half Hot Mum to look forward to! Better Together.That's only if there's electricity to make the TV work. :(

[xyz23jc]

That's only if there's electricity to make the TV work. :(

Renewable energy! Maybe, just maybe, those pesky appeasers The Greens are onto something, eh? :greengrin

[northstandhibby]

I'm rather hoping he will not lead as he is a bit toxic (I'm sorry to say). However, I would be deligted if him, Mandelson (and maybe Brown) would fulfill their roles as grandees and help the next wave up and into power. ******ifnI can identify who that might be, though. One legacy of his tenure has been a really ****ty intake of MPs.

https://twitter.com/labourlewis?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp %7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

http://www.rachaelmaskell.com/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/30/labour-referendum-brexit-terms-mps-say-clive-lewis-rachael-maskell


Two to keep an eye out for, rising star types. Clive Lewis could be next in line according to some reports. Both were speaking out yesterday in favour of a brexit final deal referendum that's opposed by the leadership.

glory glory

[Colr]

https://twitter.com/labourlewis?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp %7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

http://www.rachaelmaskell.com/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/30/labour-referendum-brexit-terms-mps-say-clive-lewis-rachael-maskell


Two to keep an eye out for, rising star types. Clive Lewis could be next in line according to some reports. Both were speaking out yesterday in favour of a brexit final deal referendum that's opposed by the leadership.

glory glory


Clive Lewis!?! FFS!

[northstandhibby]

Clive Lewis!?! FFS!

What's up with him bud? I don't know that much about him other than what I can find online, pray tell.

glory glory

[Colr]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#70b776444f04

This article makes it easier to read

What comes across is that Juncker is being every bit of the dickend heis reputed to be!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What comes across is that Juncker is being every bit of the dickend heis reputed to be!!

Leaking details of a private dinner.

If they werent already, im sure GCHQ will be getting thei orders now...!

[Just Alf]

Leaking details of a private dinner.

If they werent already, im sure GCHQ will be getting thei orders now...!

:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Leaking details of a private dinner.

If they werent already, im sure GCHQ will be getting thei orders now...!

Soup, fish course, main course, cheese board followed by just desserts

[grunt]

Leaking details of a private dinner.

If they werent already, im sure GCHQ will be getting thei orders now...!David Allen Green on Twitter:


The real significance of the leaks from the Downing Streetdinner between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker is what the detail revealsabout the UK's lack of grasp about the process and issues of Brexit, and abouthow weak the arguments are which UK ministers are seeking to deploy.
These details are telling, even taking due account of spin andbias. These details are also such that they cannot have been invented (oreven exaggerated) by the leakers. (On these details see my thread onTwitter here (https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/859053624038760449), republished at my FT blog here. (http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2017/05/01/analysing-the-juncker-may-brexit-reports-a-twitter-thread/))
And so these details are worrying, and should be worrying -regardless of one's views on Brexit.
In the UK, however, there will be pearl-clutching at the fact ofthe leaks, and attacks on the leakers. Such responses are easier, onesupposes, than dealing with the troubling detail.
There is one obvious way in which the UK government could avoidleaks about how badly prepared they are and about their poor grasp of theprocess and details.
But they would prefer official secrecy instead.
And so UK voters will only find out about the strengths andweaknesses of the UK government on Brexit, based on what was said in DowningStreet, by EU leaks to a German newspaper (published in full in the printedition and not online).
If Brexit is to be a success then the UK government needs toimprove its grasp of process and the issues, and put forward arguments whichare realistic. That the government is evidently not (yet) doing so is thesignificance of the leaks.
But the messengers,and the message, will be criticised or waved away instead.

[marinello59]

What comes across is that Juncker is being every bit of the dickend heis reputed to be!!

Maybe. But the main thing that comes across is how hopelessly out of her depth our PM is.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe. But the main thing that comes across is how hopelessly out of her depth our PM is.

Quite possibly, but ultimately nobody knows that until we see what transpires in the negotiations. We are all pre-judging things a bit imo.

Obviously the EU side will try to gain an upper hand from the outset, as will we im sure.

And while the EU obviously has more cards to play, the UK has some too that the Eu will be trying to nullify.

Ill judge May, etc at the emd of the process.

However, surely nobody can deny that your first meeting being leaked by one side is not a great basis for trust at that start of what will be a tortuous process.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

David Allen Green on Twitter:

So we should just ignore how this came about? Im not disputing what was said, ultimately we will never know, amd actually it would be weird if two sides were close a the start of such a negotiation.

[marinello59]

Quite possibly, but ultimately nobody knows that until we see what transpires in the negotiations. We are all pre-judging things a bit imo.

Obviously the EU side will try to gain an upper hand from the outset, as will we im sure.

And while the EU obviously has more cards to play, the UK has some too that the Eu will be trying to nullify.

Ill judge May, etc at the emd of the process.

However, surely nobody can deny that your first meeting being leaked by one side is not a great basis for trust at that start of what will be a tortuous process.

There is no sense of May following any strategy at all here. Basically she doesn't know what she stands for until she reads the mood of her own backbenchers. That's not the type of leadership we need going in to such vital talks. She can keep telling us she is strong but in her own way she is just as bad as Corbyn. Worse in fact, at least he is guided by long held if sometimes misguided principles. May is a cipher.
You are right, the EU has a strong hand, not quite a royal flush but a decent full house. Whilst May has a few random low clubs, Mr Bun the Baker and a Poundstretcher loyalty card.

[grunt]

So we should just ignore how this came about? Im not disputing what was said, ultimately we will never know, amd actually it would be weird if two sides were close a the start of such a negotiation."One reason we must leave EU is because it is not transparent."
"Ok, here is some transparency."
"No, not that sort of transparency."

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

"One reason we must leave EU is because it is not transparent."
"Ok, here is some transparency."
"No, not that sort of transparency."

Come on, its hardly the same thing.

Transparency would be to publish minutes. Not anonymously leak to a german newspaper.

[grunt]

Come on, its hardly the same thing.

Transparency would be to publish minutes. Not anonymously leak to a german newspaper.Sometimes I think you just argue for argument sake.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sometimes I think you just argue for argument sake.

Ok, point taken.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is no sense of May following any strategy at all here. Basically she doesn't know what she stands for until she reads the mood of her own backbenchers. That's not the type of leadership we needgoung in to such vital talks. She can keep telling us she is strong but in her own way she is just as nad as Corbyn. Worse in fact, at least he is guided by long held if sometimes misguided principles. May is a cipher.
You are right, the EU has a strong hand, not quite a royal flush but a decent full house. Whilst May has a few random low clubs, Mr Bun the Baker and a Poundstretcher loyalty card.

Try reading this without a chill running up your spine. From the Labour peer Stewart Wood, who sits on the House of Lords International Relations Committee:

https://medium.com/@stewartwood6887/theresa-mays-mistaken-precedent-for-a-brexit-based-on-cherry-picking-1e2e6a3b9985

[Just Alf]

Come on, its hardly the same thing.

Transparency would be to publish minutes. Not anonymously leak to a german newspaper.

I hear you..... But (there's always one of those! :wink:) ..... Reading what was shared it's the Tories that want to keep it all secret and the EU that wants to publish the minutes as appropriate.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I hear you..... But (there's always one of those! :wink:) ..... Reading what was shared it's the Tories that want to keep it all secret and the EU that wants to publish the minutes as appropriate.

True, but its fairly standard protocol to not habe complex international negotiations taking place in public surely.

I am not some May cheerleader, i work on a sector that could be very heavily impacted amd that could have very tangible consequences for us all.

But the people have spoken, and will be asked to speak again very soon, so we should wait amd see what transpires imo.

My dilemma now is that im not sure what we should do. I agree with the lib dems view, amd id like to back them but i dont see how you can go into negotiations with a final vote at the end - it would nullify the negotiation process amd effectively slit your own throat.

I hope that May will moderate hugely if she gets a big margin, but i have my doubts. The SNP solution isnt practical amd i dont want mu vote being used as an emdorsement of indyref2.

That kinda leaves labour, who despite being a bit mad on some stuff, are starting to sound coherent on brexit imo.

[grunt]

But the people have spoken ...I can't quite put into words just how angry that - and "the will of the people" - makes me.

[Just Alf]

True, but its fairly standard protocol to not habe complex international negotiations taking place in public surely.

I am not some May cheerleader, i work on a sector that could be very heavily impacted amd that could have very tangible consequences for us all.

But the people have spoken, and will ne asked to speak again very soon, so we should wait amd see what transpires imo.

I agree upto a point on your 1st sentence, but (argh!) I do think that there's nothing wrong to publish each area as the specific negotiation concludes.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't quite put into words just how angry that - and "the will of the people" - makes me.

Ok, well dont ask me, i can hardly even spell!

[grunt]

My dilemma now is that im not sure what we should do. What May should do, should have done back in June, what they all should have done, is stick to their principles, tell the UK electorate that they are mistaken to have voted for Brexit, apologise for even wasting our time and energy with an advisory referendum which should never have been called, and "get on with their day job" of running the country.

[Colr]

Maybe. But the main thing that comes across is how hopelessly out of her depth our PM is.

I'd like to you to suggest who would be in their depth in this ludicrous and unprecidentied situation.

She'll be making it up as she gors along like everyone else.

Jeez! What a **** up!

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd like to you to suggest who would be in their depth in this ludicrous and unprecidentied situation.

She'll be making it up as she gors along like everyone else.

Jeez! What a **** up!

Nobody forced her to take the job, she put herself forward and is now asking for confirmation from the electorate without really letting them know what her plans are. How anyone can vote for her on that basis bewilders me.

[ronaldo7]

It looks like Theresa, may have to get her information second hand from the Brexit negs.

So much for Strong and stable leadership.:greengrin

https://t.co/t6vqI2OfdE

[heretoday]

We're going to exit the EU without a deal, it's clear. Davis sounds like a ditherer and May is putting on an increasingly strained performance on the subject.

[makaveli1875]

I can't quite put into words just how angry that - and "the will of the people" - makes me.

is that not what democracy is all about :confused:

[RyeSloan]

We're going to exit the EU without a deal, it's clear. Davis sounds like a ditherer and May is putting on an increasingly strained performance on the subject.

On the plus side that means we get to keep the €100bn the EU now wants for us to leave on top of the £35m a day membership costs so that should soften the blow a touch ;-)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

On the plus side that means we get to keep the €100bn the EU now wants for us to leave on top of the £35m a day membership costs so that should soften the blow a touch ;-)

If i were the UK, i would also be strategically placing media leaks about the loss of jobs in areas of high employment in industries that export to the UK.

Obviously it wouldnt sway anything, but it might start to fwrment division among the EU.

All politics is local, after all.

[RyeSloan]

If i were the UK, i would also be strategically placing media leaks about the loss of jobs in areas of high employment in industries that export to the UK.

Obviously it wouldnt sway anything, but it might start to fwrment division among the EU.

All politics is local, after all.

To be honest I'm just tuning out of the noise just now...a lot of posturing and positioning going on. I sincerely hope that once they all sit down they'll get on with reaching an agreement rather than playing to their respective home audiences...

[Moulin Yarns]

Pot and kettle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-39758977&link_location=live-reporting-story

Theresa May has accused European politicians of making "threats" against Britain to try to influence the general election result.

Firstly, the first threats came form herself, or at least, not confirming the rights of EU citizens in the UK, until the same is confirmed by Brussels.

Secondly, there was no need to call an election before Brexit was in place, remember that was the main reason for not wanting to agree a referendum on Independence for Scotland, all the focus would be on Brexit.

Hypocritical to the extreme.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

To be honest I'm just tuning out of the noise just now...a lot of posturing and positioning going on. I sincerely hope that once they all sit down they'll get on with reaching an agreement rather than playing to their respective home audiences...

Agreed. Lots of posturing going on, and i do believe rational self interest will win the day. Although less so than i used to.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Pot and kettle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-39758977&link_location=live-reporting-story

Theresa May has accused European politicians of making "threats" against Britain to try to influence the general election result.

Firstly, the first threats came form herself, or at least, not confirming the rights of EU citizens in the UK, until the same is confirmed by Brussels.

Secondly, there was no need to call an election before Brexit was in place, remember that was the main reason for not wanting to agree a referendum on Independence for Scotland, all the focus would be on Brexit.

Hypocritical to the extreme.

I would say both sides have been doing it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I would say both sides have been doing it.

I would say that the Tories have been doing it and the British Press have been claiming the EU have been doing it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would say that the Tories have been doing it and the British Press have been claiming the EU have been doing it.

Leaking details of a private dinner?

Including gib veto in key negotiating points?

100m euro divorce bills?

Hollande talking about 'a price to pay'.

Dont get me wrong, we have been doing it as well, but obviously they have too imo.

[Colr]

Leaking details of a private dinner?

Including gib veto in key negotiating points?

100m euro divorce bills?

Hollande talking about 'a price to pay'.

Dont get me wrong, we have been doing it as well, but obviously they have too imo.

This is an excellect insight from someone who has been there.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is an excellect insight from someone who has been there.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

Interesting read.

Im sure the many who see the EU as benevolent paragons of virtue wont agree.

His off the shelf argument is interesting. I wonder if the reason we habe been talking about being happy to walk away with no deal is to try to negate the time issue.

Also we have a lot more cards than greece to play. Although i still wonder why they didnt just default amd leave the Euro.

[Colr]

Interesting read.

Im sure the many who see the EU as benevolent paragons of virtue wont agree.

His off the shelf argument is interesting. I wonder if the reason we habe been talking about being happy to walk away with no deal is to try to negate the time issue.

Also we have a lot more cards than greece to play. Although i still wonder why they didnt just default amd leave the Euro.

Maybe they will and we can have a trade deal with them.

They can then get up to their tits in debt buying British cars instead of German ones.

[Hibrandenburg]

Leaking details of a private dinner?

Including gib veto in key negotiating points?

100m euro divorce bills?

Hollande talking about 'a price to pay'.

Dont get me wrong, we have been doing it as well, but obviously they have too imo.

At least there is some information coming from Brussels, leaked or otherwise. Was the meeting private? Or was it to discuss politics?

Gibraltar wants to stay part of the UK, the UK is leaving the EU. What's there to veto. The same fate will befall Scotland unless we change our mind about the union, why should Gibraltar be treated differently?

It's not a divorce bills it's a squaring up of financial obligations the UK has committed to prior to Brexit. You surely don't expect the EU to foot the bill for the UK'S commitments?

There will be a price to pay, not only on what the UK owes but also as a result of leaving the free market, the union and all the other deals associated with membership. Or did you expect some going away gifts?

The real dialogue from the EU leadership is much more diplomatic than the translations and UK press spin are putting on it.

[speedy_gonzales]

It's not a divorce bills it's a squaring up of financial obligations the UK has committed to prior to Brexit. You surely don't expect the EU to foot the bill for the UK'S commitments?
I'm not sure what the life cycle of financial obligations is, but is this figure based on full term or pro-rata.
The UK should pay it's obligations if it pares away, just as Scotland should pay its obligations on a successful independence referendum. The problem is bureaucrats on all sides will inflate or deflate costs to suit themselves.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

At least there is some information coming from Brussels, leaked or otherwise. Was the meeting private? Or was it to discuss politics?

Gibraltar wants to stay part of the UK, the UK is leaving the EU. What's there to veto. The same fate will befall Scotland unless we change our mind about the union, why should Gibraltar be treated differently?

It's not a divorce bills it's a squaring up of financial obligations the UK has committed to prior to Brexit. You surely don't expect the EU to foot the bill for the UK'S commitments?

There will be a price to pay, not only on what the UK owes but also as a result of leaving the free market, the union and all the other deals associated with membership. Or did you expect some going away gifts?

The real dialogue from the EU leadership is much more diplomatic than the translations and UK press spin are putting on it.

Im sure the UK will square up any obligations, but i would expect thoae will only run until the end of our membership period. We can also 'sell' back oir share of the assets to the EU which should cover some of the bill. Amd of course the UK should be fair.

But that cuts both ways.

No, the veto on gib is the EU ecluding gib from the UK deal unless spain agrees - or thats how i understood it. Thats quite different amd amounts to the EU taking sides in spains grievance, even when we are still members.

If it wasnt private, why were the details leaked amd not published? We will see what the EU thinks if we start leaking against the EU in key countries.

Both sides are clearly posturing, it just surprises me that one side is honest amd virtuous, while the other is venal amd bitter. Are people really that naive?

I wonder what the EU backers on here would / will say if the UK were to act in a similar way regards any scottish negotiations?

[Slavers]

Im sure the UK will square up any obligations, but i would expect thoae will only run until the end of our membership period. We can also 'sell' back oir share of the assets to the EU which should cover some of the bill. Amd of course the UK should be fair.

But that cuts both ways.

No, the veto on gib is the EU ecluding gib from the UK deal unless spain agrees - or thats how i understood it. Thats quite different amd amounts to the EU taking sides in spains grievance, even when we are still members.

If it wasnt private, why were the details leaked amd not published? We will see what the EU thinks if we start leaking against the EU in key countries.

Both sides are clearly posturing, it just surprises me that one side is honest amd virtuous, while the other is venal amd bitter. Are people really that naive?

I wonder what the EU backers on here would / will say if the UK were to act in a similar way regards any scottish negotiations?

I think people who hold that view are bigots not naive.

[ronaldo7]

I would say that the Tories have been doing it and the British Press have been claiming the EU have been doing it.

Theresa is doing a grand job of uniting the EU, with her posturing speech today.

Bat**** crazy is what she is.

[JimBHibees]

Laughable May critic ink the European media does she not read any of the right rags that masquerade as news in this country.

[marinello59]

Theresa is doing a grand job of uniting the EU, with her posturing speech today.

Bat**** crazy is what she is.

She is confirming that her Tory Party are just UKIP with a different name.

[Bishop Hibee]

Spoke to a Polish work colleague today. She and her sister's family we're at Blair Drummond Safari Park at the weekend. Some kids in the play area were sticking their fingers up at her sister's kids and the mum went up to the parents of the offenders to let them know what was going on. She was told to '**** off back to Poland and take her ****ing kids with her". Ironically she had already decided to return to Poland in the summer. First time my colleague had experienced racist abuse in her 12 years in Scotland. Utterly shameful. The extreme right are on the march in Scotland with Brexit letting them off the leash stoked up by Tory xenophobia.

[Moulin Yarns]

Someone seems to think there 'was' a solution for Scotland

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/scotland-could-have-stayed-in-eu-and-uk-post-brexit-1-4435852

But David Davis claims differently

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Someone seems to think there 'was' a solution for Scotland

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/scotland-could-have-stayed-in-eu-and-uk-post-brexit-1-4435852

But David Davis claims differently

Actually so does the guy at the bottom of the article. Davis said it wasnt practical, not that it wasnt possible.

This guy more or less agrees.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Spoke to a Polish work colleague today. She and her sister's family we're at Blair Drummond Safari Park at the weekend. Some kids in the play area were sticking their fingers up at her sister's kids and the mum went up to the parents of the offenders to let them know what was going on. She was told to '**** off back to Poland and take her ****ing kids with her". Ironically she had already decided to return to Poland in the summer. First time my colleague had experienced racist abuse in her 12 years in Scotland. Utterly shameful. The extreme right are on the march in Scotland with Brexit letting them off the leash stoked up by Tory xenophobia.

Thats a shamr for your colleague, but every country everywhere has its share of erseholes.

Amd racism and bigotry are not exactly new to us scots. Just loook the founders of our great football club.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats a shamr for your colleague, but every country everywhere has its share of erseholes.

Amd racism and bigotry are not exactly new to us scots. Just loook the founders of our great football club.

No but after years of progress made against open and blatant racism we'd made progress. Now since Brexit and the tories becoming UKIP it's deemed in some circles to be socially acceptable again.

[Hibrandenburg]

Theresa is doing a grand job of uniting the EU, with her posturing speech today.

Bat**** crazy is what she is.

http://newsthump.com/2017/05/03/eu-seeking-to-influence-election-by-keeping-electorate-dangerously-well-informed-claims-theresa-may/

[ronaldo7]

She is confirming that her Tory Party are just UKIP with a different name.

She's gone all Donald.

Accusing the European press of misrepresenting Britain, whilst, all the while they've been misrepresenting the EU for decades.

Accusing the Europeans of intervening in the GE. It was fine back in 2014 though:wink: I wonder how they got on with their interfering influence in the EU referendum in June last year.:rolleyes:

Take a look at the free british press today, and you'd think we were to get the flak jackets out, ready to fight those pesky Europeans. War, War, War.

Little Britain, right enough.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/859888038989529088

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No but after years of progress made against open and blatant racism we'd made progress. Now since Brexit and the tories becoming UKIP it's deemed in some circles to be socially acceptable again.

I think that progress stands, and i certainly hope so.

But lets not pretend racism went away, or that we scots arent as capable of bigotry, with or without the tories, as anyone else.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that progress stands, and i certainly hope so.

But lets not pretend racism went away, or that we scots arent as capable of bigotry, with or without the tories, as anyone else.

Racism will never go away because it's ingrained in our society. Notice I didn't say nature because it's something that is learned. But like the Germans would say it's become "Salonfähig" again.

[Moulin Yarns]

Actually so does the guy at the bottom of the article. Davis said it wasnt practical, not that it wasnt possible.

This guy more or less agrees.

The last paragraph??


One risk will be economic for the UK because naturally you will have, I would say for Scotland and Northern Ireland it would be extremely positive. It will attract lots of investment and companies will locate in these territories because they could benefit from both those markets."


Not practical only if the UK government are hell bent on making it difficult, not that that is likely, right enough :rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The last paragraph??



Not practical only if the UK government are hell bent on making it difficult, not that that is likely, right enough :rolleyes:

Well i dont think it is reasonable to expect the UK govt to effectively split the UK. Obbiously the pro-indy people do.

We can just agree to disagree.

[Just Alf]

The last paragraph??



Not practical only if the UK government are hell bent on making it difficult, not that that is likely, right enough :rolleyes:

That last paragraph in the article is probably the single biggest reason that Westminster didn't even want to discuss the idea.

[ronaldo7]

That last paragraph in the article is probably the single biggest reason that Westminster didn't even want to discuss the idea.

Positives for other nations in our "Family", must not happen. It's in the Unionist DNA.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Interesting analysis from bill jamieson in the scotsman, based on that famous little Englander Varoufakis' raking assessment of the EU and what the paralells could be if Scotland votes to leave the Union.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/bill-jamieson-dark-warning-from-greece-over-brexit-1-4436487/amp

[PeeJay]

Theresa is doing a grand job of uniting the EU, with her posturing speech today.

Bat**** crazy is what she is.

You really think so? Seems to me that the EU is united anyway, it has little to do with what the UK PM says or doesn't say. May's posturing is clearly directed at winning over her own political party and the electorate in the UK, the EU is far down the list of addressees, after all, we "Europeans" (sic) can't "elect" her; once the GE is over the tone will change again to a more conciliatory one - this is all just politicking, it's nothing new ...

[ronaldo7]

You really think so? Seems to me that the EU is united anyway, it has little to do with what the UK PM says or doesn't say. May's posturing is clearly directed at winning over her own political party and the electorate in the UK, the EU is far down the list of addressees, after all, we "Europeans" (sic) can't "elect" her; once the GE is over the tone will change again to a more conciliatory one - this is all just politicking, it's nothing new ...




I do.

I also agree that May was preaching to her Tory heartlands yesterday, however, you can only keep prodding a dug with a sharp stick so often, before it turns on you.

She was annoyed with the article in FAZ from her meeting with Junker, and it came out in yesterday's speech.

Not the work of an articulate, and measured politician IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

You really think so? Seems to me that the EU is united anyway, it has little to do with what the UK PM says or doesn't say. May's posturing is clearly directed at winning over her own political party and the electorate in the UK, the EU is far down the list of addressees, after all, we "Europeans" (sic) can't "elect" her; once the GE is over the tone will change again to a more conciliatory one - this is all just politicking, it's nothing new ...




It's still pretty dishonest and scabby though. If labour were anything other than hapless, they could make this work in their favour.

[PeeJay]

I do.

I also agree that May was preaching to her Tory heartlands yesterday, however, you can only keep prodding a dug with a sharp stick so often, before it turns on you.

She was annoyed with the article in FAZ from her meeting with Junker, and it came out in yesterday's speech.

Not the work of an articulate, and measured politician IMO.

Fair points, not quite sure she can be called "crazy" though - there is after all a certain "method in her madness" regarding the GE - as she clearly has a better hand in negotiations with a larger HoC majority (if it comes to pass that is) - seems to me that what she fails to realize (for some reason beyond me) is that, despite her claims to the contrary, the "country" really is not united behind her at all. So: is she aware of this and is simply lying to you all, or is she unaware of this and truly believes the country is united behind her - not sure what is worse of the two?

[PeeJay]

It's still pretty dishonest and scabby though. If labour were anything other than hapless, they could make this work in their favour.

Have to agree with you - the UK and its main politcal parties seem pretty rudderless to me at the moment, sad times ...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Fair points, not quite sure she can be called "crazy" though - there is after all a certain "method in her madness" regarding the GE - as she clearly has a better hand in negotiations with a larger HoC majority (if it comes to pass that is) - seems to me that what she fails to realize (for some reason beyond me) is that, despite her claims to the contrary, the "country" really is not united behind her at all. So: is she aware of this and is simply lying to you all, or is she unaware of this and truly believes the country is united behind her - not sure what is worse of the two?

There is another possible angle. That May and her team know that the best way to unite us Brits against the EU is to have the EU being aggressive towards us. If anything will unite the UK, it is a perceieved external threat.

Everytime one of the Eurocrats, not to mention Merkel sound off about how hard they are going to make it, they strengthen british public opinion against the EU and ergo, strengthen May.

The whole thing is a massive disaster, but it is being made much worse by the posturing on both sides.

Eurocrats circling the wagons to protect their own trough is one thing, bit for Merkel to use the language she did is quite unusual in international diplomacy, and was always going to elicit a response.

I have to say if Scotland becomes indy, im really not sure i would want us to join the EU now.

[Moulin Yarns]

There is another possible angle. That May and her team know that the best way to unite us Brits against the EU is to have the EU being aggressive towards us. If anything will unite the UK, it is a perceieved external threat.

Everytime one of the Eurocrats, not to mention Merkel sound off about how hard they are going to make it, they strengthen british public opinion against the EU and ergo, May.

The whole thing is a massive disaster, but it is being made much worse by the posturing on both sides.

Eurocrats circling the wagons to protect their own trough is one thing, bit for Merkel to use the language she did is quite unusual in international diplomacy, and was always going to elicit a response.

I have to say if Scotland becomes indy, im really not sure i would want us to join the EU now.

Except I consider myself European. :wink: C'mon the Merkel and Junkers :greengrin

What language did Merkel use? German?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Except I consider myself European. :wink: C'mon the Merkel and Junkers :greengrin

And im sure many do. I do. But the EU is not Europe. Its an set of organisations not a geography.

But many, many more, including Scots imo, would identify with Britain before the EU.

[Hibrandenburg]

There is another possible angle. That May and her team know that the best way to unite us Brits against the EU is to have the EU being aggressive towards us. If anything will unite the UK, it is a perceieved external threat.

Everytime one of the Eurocrats, not to mention Merkel sound off about how hard they are going to make it, they strengthen british public opinion against the EU and ergo, strengthen May.

The whole thing is a massive disaster, but it is being made much worse by the posturing on both sides.

Eurocrats circling the wagons to protect their own trough is one thing, bit for Merkel to use the language she did is quite unusual in international diplomacy, and was always going to elicit a response.

I have to say if Scotland becomes indy, im really not sure i would want us to join the EU now.

What kind of language is Merkel using, I'm genuinely interested because I can't find any quotes in the German press that could be deemed offensive or threatening?

[Moulin Yarns]

What kind of language is Merkel using, I'm genuinely interested because I can't find any quotes in the German press that could be deemed offensive or threatening?

German speaks as German is :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What kind of language is Merkel using, I'm genuinely interested because I can't find any quotes in the German press that could be deemed offensive or threatening?

I dont have the actual quotes to hand, but to paraphrase, she said May was living in a dream world, and that many in Britain are suffering from illusions.

Obviously i read this in an english language paper (Guardian) so i accept that there may be elements of 'lost in translation' to it all that you will be able to spot better than i could, given i speak zero German.

[CapitalGreen]

I dont have the actual quotes to hand, but to paraphrase, she said May was living in a dream world, and that many in Britain are suffering from illusions.

Obviously i read this in an english language paper (Guardian) so i accept that there may be elements of 'lost in translation' to it all that you will be able to spot better than i could, given i speak zero German.

As a Brit I don't find that offensive, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As a Brit I don't find that offensive, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with it.

But to say (if she did inxeed say) that another leader is living in a dream is not diplomatic language.

And while you may not find it offensive, others will or might, which is the point. It is langiage that is more lilely to ramp up tension than it is to dampen it.

[PeeJay]

There is another possible angle. That May and her team know that the best way to unite us Brits against the EU is to have the EU being aggressive towards us. If anything will unite the UK, it is a perceieved external threat.

Everytime one of the Eurocrats, not to mention Merkel sound off about how hard they are going to make it, they strengthen british public opinion against the EU and ergo, strengthen May.

The whole thing is a massive disaster, but it is being made much worse by the posturing on both sides.

Eurocrats circling the wagons to protect their own trough is one thing, bit for Merkel to use the language she did is quite unusual in international diplomacy, and was always going to elicit a response.

I have to say if Scotland becomes indy, im really not sure i would want us to join the EU now.

Well, I'm not convinced May is "uniting the Brits" as you suggest - the country is more divided than it has been for decades and longer even ... Half the country wants out, half the country wants in the EU (although to be fair almost everyone in the UK has no idea what the EU is, they think it is the "single market", when it's actually something else and that is part of the underlying problem if you ask me ...)

[CapitalGreen]

But to say (if she did inxeed say) that another leader is living in a dream is not diplomatic language.

And while you may not find it offensive, others will or might, which is the point. It is langiage that is more lilely to ramp up tension than it is to dampen it.

I'd hope our strong and stable leader wasn't that precious.

[Moulin Yarns]

Who is playing hard to get??


We are told there is a document on the table relating to UK citizens living in Europe and those of citizens from other EU countries who live in Britain, but the UK is not prepared to sign. No reason has been given as to why.

And it was Junkers that is quoted as say TM the PM is in a different Galaxy.



No wonder the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, is reported to have said Theresa May is on another galaxy in imagining she can retain the best bits of Europe without its institutions or legal underpinnings. Her fantasy that the “great repeal bill” will fix the problem by bringing EU law home, or that a deal can be done without the need for any European court, is unravelling. These legal arrangements require reciprocity. The courts of EU countries do things for us because we do likewise for them. A piece of unilateral legislation on our part does not secure that mutuality which is embodied in many regulations.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Who is playing hard to get??



And it was Junkers that is quoted as say TM the PM is in a different Galaxy.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

Did the UK not offer to agree the rights of people before the negotations even began some months back, only to be met with an EU refusal?

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting analysis from bill jamieson in the scotsman, based on that famous little Englander Varoufakis' raking assessment of the EU and what the paralells could be if Scotland votes to leave the Union.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/bill-jamieson-dark-warning-from-greece-over-brexit-1-4436487/amp

The EU's fundamental stance is to protect the future inegrity of the EU, ie. make Brexit unfavourable enough "pour encourager les autres". "Scoxit" as he terms it just doesn't have that dynamic, so you have to believe that the rUK would punish Scotland just out of vindictiveness. (btw, wouldn't that make you a paranoid anglophobe? In which case you should already be in the SNP :wink:).

Agree with his last para though, the Varoufakis solution of a Switzerland or Norway option for the UK would be ideal for all concerned (and incidentally Sturgeon is on record that she would call off plans for Indyref2 in those circumstances). Sadly, it's far too sensible for the Buccaneering Brexiteers. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Who is playing hard to get??



And it was Junkers that is quoted as say TM the PM is in a different Galaxy.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

Aiui, the major sticking point over respective rights of ex-pat resident migrants is the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice as the final arbiter of whether those rights have been respected.

[PeeJay]

Did the UK not offer to agree the rights of people before the negotations even began some months back, only to be met with an EU refusal?

Think this was a consequence of the UK's sluggishness in relation to Article 50 - the EU refused to enter into any negotiations until Article 50 was submitted?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Think this was a consequence of the UK's sluggishness in relation to Article 50 - the EU refused to enter into any negotiations until Article 50 was submitted?

So it was the EU who refused then?

But that is Briatin's fault?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Aiui, the major sticking point over respective rights of ex-pat resident migrants is the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice as the final arbiter of whether those rights have been respected.

So its the EU dragging its feet and using people as pawns in its negotiations then?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The EU's fundamental stance is to protect the future inegrity of the EU, ie. make Brexit unfavourable enough "pour encourager les autres". "Scoxit" as he terms it just doesn't have that dynamic, so you have to believe that the rUK would punish Scotland just out of vindictiveness. (btw, wouldn't that make you a paranoid anglophobe? In which case you should already be in the SNP :wink:).

Agree with his last para though, the Varoufakis solution of a Switzerland or Norway option for the UK would be ideal for all concerned (and incidentally Sturgeon is on record that she would call off plans for Indyref2 in those circumstances). Sadly, it's far too sensible for the Buccaneering Brexiteers. :rolleyes:

I disagree. And if that day happens, im sure the scotrish govt will fully acvept that the terms of us leaving the UK will habe to be worse than the terms of us staying in the UK.

Thats the precedent being set here.

[JeMeSouviens]

I disagree. And if that day happens, im sure the scotrish govt will fully acvept that the terms of us leaving the UK will habe to be worse than the terms of us staying in the UK.

Thats the precedent being set here.

Did you read what I wrote? Why? What's their motivation?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Did you read what I wrote? Why? What's their motivation?

Yeah i read it, but as i said i disagreed.

To ensure that the UK citizens get a better deal in the UK than outside it. To protect the integrity of the rUK. To ensure that the rUK gets the best possible deal.

I really do think you are attempting some intellectual gymnastics if you dont think the situations are or will be similar.

[JeMeSouviens]

So its the EU dragging its feet and using people as pawns in its negotiations then?

Why do you feel the need to put a pro-Tory Brexiteer spin on absolutely everything? I said what I think the point of disagreement is. Disagreements tend to involve 2 sides, it may surprise you to learn.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah i read it, but as i said i disagreed.

To ensure that the UK citizens get a better deal in the UK than outside it. To protect the integrity of the rUK. To ensure that the rUK gets the best possible deal.

I really do think you are attempting some intellectual gymnastics if you dont think the situations are or will be similar.

The only further possible threat to the integrity of rUK is Irish unification and I think rUK would actually be quite glad to be rid of NI.

I really think you are being seriously deluded if you think the 2 situations are at all similar.

[Moulin Yarns]

So it was the EU who refused then?

But that is Briatin's fault?

JEEZE!! http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

There are processes, which you are either ignorant of, or deliberately ignoring.

The first thing that HAS to be negotiated is the financial settlement, the 100billion Euros, before any negotiations on trade, labour movement etc. this was laid out even before A50 was triggered and TM the PM knows that full well. She is the one playing political football with peoples lives here, not the EU.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The only further possible threat to the integrity of rUK is Irish unification and I think rUK would actually be quite glad to be rid of NI.

I really think you are being seriously deluded if you think the 2 situations are at all similar.

Ok, we can agree to disagree.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

JEEZE!! http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

There are processes, which you are either ignorant of, or deliberately ignoring.

The first thing that HAS to be negotiated is the financial settlement, the 100billion Euros, before any negotiations on trade, labour movement etc. this was laid out even before A50 was triggered and TM the PM knows that full well. She is the one playing political football with peoples lives here, not the EU.

That is only the first thing, because the EU habe decided it is the first thing. But money is obviously more important to the EU than protecting its citizens.

So did the UK offer to settle this issue before negotiations, therefore lifting it out of the politics of the situation?

And if so, who refused?

[Moulin Yarns]

That is only the first thing, because the EU habe decided it is the first thing. But money is obviously more important to the EU than protecting its citizens.

So did the UK offer to settle this issue before negotiations, therefore lifting it out of the politics of the situation?

And if so, who refused?

You are conveniently forgetting that negotiations could not begin until after TM the PM had triggered A50? Offering to do something that is no possible is no offer at all.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You are conveniently forgetting that negotiations could not begin until after TM the PM had triggered A50? Offering to do something that is no possible is no offer at all.

So you are not going to answer the question.

Given all these barriers then, what are you blaming the UK for not having done on this?