Brexit - what will happen next

[CropleyWasGod]

No I'm saying that using the 1.5m who voted to remain as a trigger for indyref2 I think is wrong because she is ignoring the over 2m who voted No in the UK referendum.
How many of that 2m voted No because they wanted to remain in the EU?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Eu academics who've been living and working in the UK for decades are being put under pressure to make arrangements to leave.

The disgusting side of Brexit.

https://t.co/sSRsCGqBFB

[ronaldo7]

No I'm saying that using the 1.5m who voted to remain as a trigger for indyref2 I think is wrong because she is ignoring the over 2m who voted No in the UK referendum.

We had an election about 8 months ago, where the SNP had within their manifesto a direct link to being taken out of the EU as a trigger for another referendum.

What should they do now?

[marinello59]

How many of that 2m voted No because they wanted to remain in the EU?

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It was only one factor of many and as to who voted for what, the lines are blurred. There were plenty in the North East fishing community for instance who voted Yes but are delighted we are leaving the EU. The polls have not shown a massive surge for Yes in the wake of the Brexit vote. I hope we do have IndyRef 2 next year but the the SNP and others need to move swiftly on from merely saying 'Brexit' to making a really strong case no matter which way people voted in the EU poll. At the moment they haven't even started to make that case.

[makaveli1875]

We had an election about 8 months ago, where the SNP had within their manifesto a direct link to being taken out of the EU as a trigger for another referendum.

What should they do now?

they should trigger the referendum and let the people decide

[Slavers]

I see where you're coming from...

Indyref 1.. You'll be out of the EU...It'll be a disaster.

Indyref2.. You'll be in the EU...It'll be a disaster.

Why would the RUK not want to trade with Scotland after Indy? They currently sell more to us than we do to them. Was that not the argument during the EU ref regarding german cars etc?

Would the terms of a trade deal between Scotland and the rUK not be determined by the EU? If the EU wants to make an example of the UK then that in theory could damage trade between Scotland in the EU and rUK.

Or as you put it:

Indyref 1 - fine to take Scotland out the EU.

Indyref 2 - utter disaster to take Scotland out the EU.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was only one factor of many and as to who voted for what, the lines are blurred. There were plenty in the North East fishing community for instance who voted Yes but are delighted we are leaving the EU. The polls have not shown a massive surge for Yes in the wake of the Brexit vote. I hope we do have IndyRef 2 next year but the the SNP and others need to move swiftly on from merely saying 'Brexit' to making a really strong case no matter which way people voted in the EU poll. At the moment they haven't even started to make that case.

Yep, I agree with your saying the lines are blurred, which is why I responded to the previous poster that way.

[marinello59]

Yep, I agree with your saying the lines are blurred, which is why I responded to the previous poster that way.

In that case I didn't misread your post, I was agreeing with you. :green grin

[CropleyWasGod]

Would the terms of a trade deal between Scotland and the rUK not be determined by the EU? If the EU wants to make an example of the UK then that in theory could damage trade between Scotland in the EU and rUK.

Or as you put it:

Indyref 1 - fine to take Scotland out the EU.

Indyref 2 - utter disaster to take Scotland out the EU.

Why would they do that? That would be cutting off their nose etc...

[Moulin Yarns]

they should trigger the referendum and let the people decide

In Palestine? :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

No I'm saying that using the 1.5m who voted to remain as a trigger for indyref2 I think is wrong because she is ignoring the over 2m who voted No in the UK referendum.

Different question under different circumstances.

[steakbake]

Different question under different circumstances.

"What is the process for removing our EU citizenship? - Voting Yes", said BetterTogether in the indyref.

[JeMeSouviens]

The UK is the fastest growing economy in the western world today. Surely credit must go to someone but who? The working people who do a great job for their employers.

But I hear that it's a broken Britain but if Britain is broken despite being the fastest growing economy. What does it say for the rest of the EU?

Mostly shoppers it turns out.


On the surface, the growth numbers look encouraging, but Samuel Tombs of Pantheon Macroeconomics argues that they have "all the hallmarks" of unsustainable growth.

Here is an extract from a data note sent to clients soon after the release (emphasis ours):

"The economy’s brisk growth at the end of 2016 has all the hallmarks of being driven by an unsustainable consumer spending spree. The 0.8% quarter-on-quarter increase in services output was driven by consumer-focused sectors. In particular, output in the distribution, hotels and restaurants sector rose by 1.7%, accounting for 0.3pp of the rise in services output. The pick-up in inflation and slight decline in employment in Q4 suggest that real households’ incomes were no higher than in Q3, so consumers appear to have turned to debt to spend more."

From http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-aftermath-uk-gdp-q4-2017-1

[JeMeSouviens]

I fear the EU will put politics before what's better for the economy of the EU and the UK. I mean I have read they would rather punish the UK with a bad trade deal in order to stop other nations from wanting to leave. Surely that is in no one's interests and I'm not sure how true that position actually is but I have read some people in the UK agreeing with this stance. Why? It's not good for anyone except a political project and the politicians.


Yeah, it's not like anyone in the UK ever put political short-termism regarding Europe before what's better for the economy, is it?



I can't help but think that part of the reason Nicola Sturgeon is so in favour of the EU more so than the UK even though Scotland does 4 times the level of trade with the UK than it does the EU. Is because she had her heart set on one of those very lucrative EU jobs that was taken away from her with the brexit vote. In my opinion the UK is far more important to Scotland than the EU and all the economic figures back this up.


I suppose I should be grateful you didn't go the whole hog and call her "Wee Jimmie Kranky". :rolleyes: Given the only way she's going to be looking for a new job is if she calls a referendum and loses, thus Scotland is out of the EU, how exactly do you propose she's going to land this stellar job? (Which you've just made up in order to randomly accuse her of naked self interest at the country's expense).



The UK our closest friends and largest trading partner is performing better than the EU but Nicola Sturgeon wants to take us out the UK to try and apply to another union who we trade less with and doesnt perform as good as the UK.

That I think when it comes to indyref2 will be the argument that looses the SNP another independence referendum.

You've clearly swallowed too many Labour press releases. :wink:

It's not about choosing between 2 "unions" or which performs the goodest.

It's about choosing between being a region of a unitary state that's going to be run by right wing isolationist idiots (some of the worst of them Scots, btw) for the next several decades or choosing to be a modern, outward looking, European, independent state among a free association of mutually co-operating independent states. Oh, and bonus!, we get to choose a government that runs Scotland for the benefit of those who want to live here.

[grunt]

It's about choosing between being a region of a unitary state that's going to be run by right wing isolationist idiots (some of the worst of them Scots, btw) for the next several decades or choosing to be a modern, outward looking, European, independent state among a free association of mutually co-operating independent states. Oh, and bonus!, we get to choose a government that runs Scotland for the benefit of those who want to live here.

:agree:

[makaveli1875]

In Palestine? :wink:

palestine were offered a state back in the 40's that they rejected , it was far bigger area of land than whats on the table for them now

[hibsbollah]

palestine were offered a state back in the 40's that they rejected , it was far bigger area of land than whats on the table for them now

So now you're saying a state that you've previously said doesn't exist was offered another state that was bigger than the state that they haven't got but is on the table now but doesn't really exist.

You should really call yourself Jean Paul Sartre instead of Macchiavelli.

[Moulin Yarns]

palestine were offered a state back in the 40's that they rejected , it was far bigger area of land than whats on the table for them now

They had a state, back in 1947, and had a large part removed by the actions of the UK and the UN as a result of partitioning. The following wars and occupation of territories by Israel as resulted in the current situation in the middle east, but you know that really.

[ronaldo7]

Yeah, it's not like anyone in the UK ever put political short-termism regarding Europe before what's better for the economy, is it?



I suppose I should be grateful you didn't go the whole hog and call her "Wee Jimmie Kranky". :rolleyes: Given the only way she's going to be looking for a new job is if she calls a referendum and loses, thus Scotland is out of the EU, how exactly do you propose she's going to land this stellar job? (Which you've just made up in order to randomly accuse her of naked self interest at the country's expense).



You've clearly swallowed too many Labour press releases. :wink:

It's not about choosing between 2 "unions" or which performs the goodest.

It's about choosing between being a region of a unitary state that's going to be run by right wing isolationist idiots (some of the worst of them Scots, btw) for the next several decades or choosing to be a modern, outward looking, European, independent state among a free association of mutually co-operating independent states. Oh, and bonus!, we get to choose a government that runs Scotland for the benefit of those who want to live here.


In a nutshell.

[ronaldo7]

Would the terms of a trade deal between Scotland and the rUK not be determined by the EU? If the EU wants to make an example of the UK then that in theory could damage trade between Scotland in the EU and rUK.

Or as you put it:

Indyref 1 - fine to take Scotland out the EU.

Indyref 2 - utter disaster to take Scotland out the EU.

Why would the RUK want to stop trading with Scotland when it ships more to Scotland than we ship to them?

The Uk currently exports 4 times as much trade to the EU as it does to the USA. Do you think the UK will stop trading with either after Brexit?

[makaveli1875]

So now you're saying a state that you've previously said doesn't exist was offered another state that was bigger than the state that they haven't got but is on the table now but doesn't really exist.

You should really call yourself Jean Paul Sartre instead of Macchiavelli.

i dont call myself machiavelli , i call myself makaveli .

is that why you call yourself hezbollah

[Betty Boop]

i dont call myself machiavelli , i call myself makaveli .

is that why you call yourself hezbollah

No he's hibsbollah.

[hibsbollah]

i dont call myself machiavelli , i call myself makaveli .

is that why you call yourself hezbollah

Is that an existential question?:faint:

[northstandhibby]

It's looking increasingly likely a hard brexit is coming and the american culture of dog eat dog and individualism will become ever more prevalent.

In that case it is certain Sturgeon will have to call a second indy ref as she has made it clear a hard brexit was an outcome that would trigger an indy 2 vote.

If it does happen I think they would win it quite easily.

What I would like to see happen is a new centrist moderate party emerge that is in favor of Scottish independence as the SNP are pretty hard left and one thing I don't like very much is an overly nanny state that thinks they should control prices of alcohol or any other types of food or drink and it is the thin end of the wedge at they slide into becoming a big brother knows best type dictatorship.

I suggest a party of the moderates should emerge to govern for all of Scotland in the event of an indy vote 2. One that can keep Je me souveins happy and Makavelli and Steakbake happy.

A real centrist party governing for all of the folks of Scotland.

Glory Glory

[makaveli1875]

It's looking increasingly likely a hard brexit is coming and the american culture of dog eat dog and individualism will become ever more prevalent.

In that case it is certain Sturgeon will have to call a second indy ref as she has made it clear a hard brexit was an outcome that would trigger an indy 2 vote.

If it does happen I think they would win it quite easily.

What I would like to see happen is a new centrist moderate party emerge that is in favor of Scottish independence as the SNP are pretty hard left and one thing I don't like very much is an overly nanny state that thinks they should control prices of alcohol or any other types of food or drink and it is the thin end of the wedge at they slide into becoming a big brother knows best type dictatorship.

I suggest a party of the moderates should emerge to govern for all of Scotland in the event of an indy vote 2. One that can keep Je me souveins happy and Makavelli and Steakbake happy.

A real centrist party governing for all of the folks of Scotland.

Glory Glory

makaveli voted yes in the scottish indy referendum believe it or not

[northstandhibby]

makaveli voted yes in the scottish indy referendum believe it or not

Why, when you appear to fanatically support brexit and you would surely have known the SNP are EU europhiles?

Maybe you should change your name to Machiavelli?

:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

It's looking increasingly likely a hard brexit is coming and the american culture of dog eat dog and individualism will become ever more prevalent.

In that case it is certain Sturgeon will have to call a second indy ref as she has made it clear a hard brexit was an outcome that would trigger an indy 2 vote.

If it does happen I think they would win it quite easily.

What I would like to see happen is a new centrist moderate party emerge that is in favor of Scottish independence as the SNP are pretty hard left and one thing I don't like very much is an overly nanny state that thinks they should control prices of alcohol or any other types of food or drink and it is the thin end of the wedge at they slide into becoming a big brother knows best type dictatorship.

I suggest a party of the moderates should emerge to govern for all of Scotland in the event of an indy vote 2. One that can keep Je me souveins happy and Makavelli and Steakbake happy.

A real centrist party governing for all of the folks of Scotland.

Glory Glory


The SNP is barely left of centre. If NewLab hadn't moved Lab so far to the right, nobody would ever have called the SNP left wing.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's looking increasingly likely a hard brexit is coming and the american culture of dog eat dog and individualism will become ever more prevalent.

In that case it is certain Sturgeon will have to call a second indy ref as she has made it clear a hard brexit was an outcome that would trigger an indy 2 vote.

If it does happen I think they would win it quite easily.

What I would like to see happen is a new centrist moderate party emerge that is in favor of Scottish independence as the SNP are pretty hard left and one thing I don't like very much is an overly nanny state that thinks they should control prices of alcohol or any other types of food or drink and it is the thin end of the wedge at they slide into becoming a big brother knows best type dictatorship.

I suggest a party of the moderates should emerge to govern for all of Scotland in the event of an indy vote 2. One that can keep Je me souveins happy and Makavelli and Steakbake happy.

A real centrist party governing for all of the folks of Scotland.

Glory Glory

You think?

From this perspective the SNP are an agglomeration of different shades, bound together by one issue.

[northstandhibby]

You think?

What do you mean?

Glory Glory

[steakbake]

makaveli voted yes in the scottish indy referendum believe it or not

I'm a green voter and party member: I'm fine pre and post Indy. The SNP have few genuinely progressive leftist policies. They maybe did at some stage, but they win by bringing along the pro-Indy vote with a centrist ticket.

They'd run a mile from any real tax rises as their reluctance to bring in a 50p rate shows. The council tax freeze is there so they don't spooknthe middle classes.

I'd say they're pragmatists, more or a movement with a unifying theme. They are a coalition of people who believe in independence but do I think that the likes of Mhairi Black/Tommy Sheppard would naturally find themselves in the same party as Fergus Ewing or Richard Lochhead post-indy.

That said, you'd likely find shifts in other parties too. And I happen to think it'd be the remaking of Scottish Labour as a centrist left alternative.

Not sure what the LibDems are for, though.

[northstandhibby]

The SNP is barely left of centre. If NewLab hadn't moved Lab so far to the right, nobody would ever have called the SNP left wing.

Nothing wrong with some center ground competition of a new moderate party that would be in favor of an independent Scotland is there. Surely no-one wants a one party dominance?

Don't forget I'm being hypothetical. I think it would be good for Scotland to have a center ground party competing with the SNP.

Glory Glory

[steakbake]

Nothing wrong with some center ground competition of a new moderate party that would be in favor of an independent Scotland is there. Surely no-one wants a one party dominance?

Don't forget I'm being hypothetical. I think it would be good for Scotland to have a center ground party competing with the SNP.

Glory Glory

It would be "an SNP" but I doubt they'd have the same faces as they do now.

I've often thought if it was full proportional representation, that a "unity list" might do well - a group of non-party affiliated candidates standing on a very specific platform but free to vote as their conscience on other issues would also bring a bit of diversity.

[Smartie]

One of the things I don't like post Scottish Independence referendum is that there is an assumption that you must follow the same pattern as everyone else does in subsequent elections or referendums.

I voted yes, I have voted SNP in all elections in my adult life and I voted for the UK to remain within the EU. I do, however, dislike a number of SNP policies and I am happy to be openly critical of ones I disagree with. There seems to have been a train of thought in certain quarters that everyone MUST toe the party line otherwise it is deemed to be treacherous, unpatriotic or disloyal.

It is perfectly reasonable imo that someone could choose to wish Scotland to be Independent from the UK as well as the EU, and I don't think that someone who holds that opinion should be criticised for it.

To win an Indyref2, a convincing argument will need to be put forward to those who voted the other way the last time. Being aggressive, confrontation and critical of choices someone made the last time are less likely to be able to convince those who may be on the swither.

[CropleyWasGod]

What do you mean?

Glory Glory

Do you actually think that the SNP are hard-left?

Maybe compared to Theresa the Hun, but.... really???

[allmodcons]

Do you actually think that the SNP are hard-left?

Maybe compared to Theresa the Hun, but.... really???

I've just raised this issue on another thread, the SNP are slightly left of centre.

Never left enough for Kez and never right wing enough for Ruth.

TM's Government on the other hand are heading for the far right.

This will be what the next Indyref is about (i.e. - what kind of country we want to live in).

[CropleyWasGod]

Nothing wrong with some center ground competition of a new moderate party that would be in favor of an independent Scotland is there. Surely no-one wants a one party dominance?

Don't forget I'm being hypothetical. I think it would be good for Scotland to have a center ground party competing with the SNP.

Glory Glory

In IndyScotland, it's highly likely that there won't be an SNP in its current form. It will splinter into its constituent shades.

[northstandhibby]

In IndyScotland, it's highly likely that there won't be an SNP in its current form. It will splinter into its constituent shades.

That's a surprising interesting theory, what makes you think that?

Glory Glory

[allmodcons]

In IndyScotland, it's highly likely that there won't be an SNP in its current form. It will splinter into its constituent shades.

I don't think that will be the case in the early years in an Independent Scotland but, over a period of time, is a highly realistic scenario.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's a surprising interesting theory, what makes you think that?

Glory Glory

It's hardly new, it's been discussed many times.

As I said above, the SNP is a collection of differing political opinions, bound together by one common policy. Once that aim is achieved, there will be less need for the alliance.

As SB says above, it won't happen overnight, of course.

[northstandhibby]

I don't think that will be the case in the early years in an Independent Scotland but, over a period of time, is a highly realistic scenario.

I don't understand why they would disappear. They may have one objective in mind but without competition and in power of Scotland they would not want to give it up lightly.

That's why I suggest a new coalition party of centrist moderates should consider forming one as a one party dominance of Scotland is very unhealthy.

Glory Glory

[northstandhibby]

It's hardly new, it's been discussed many times.

As I said above, the SNP is a collection of differing political opinions, bound together by one common policy. Once that aim is achieved, there will be less need for the alliance.

As SB says above, it won't happen overnight, of course.

Every political party has different shades of one color or another and it allows them to morph at different times. At different periods in time a section of the party will be dominant.

Glory Glory

[steakbake]

I don't think that will be the case in the early years in an Independent Scotland but, over a period of time, is a highly realistic scenario.

Haha - that should be a campaigning tactic in Indyref2:

Want rid of the SNP?

Vote Yes - in due course, they'll most likely fragment and reconstitute into a range of alternatives.

I might have to work a bit harder on the tagline...

[allmodcons]

I don't understand why they would disappear. They may have one objective in mind but without competition and in power of Scotland they would not want to give it up lightly.

That's why I suggest a new coalition party of centrist moderates should consider forming one as a one party dominance of Scotland is very unhealthy.

Glory Glory

What is this one party dominance thing? The SNP are a minority Government.

They can't even get their budget through Parliament

[allmodcons]

Haha - that should be a campaigning tactic in Indyref2:

Want rid of the SNP?

Vote Yes - in due course, they'll most likely fragment and reconstitute into a range of alternatives.

I might have to work a bit harder on the tagline...

Might just work.

[northstandhibby]

I surmise when Scotland does become independent the political landscape will become a different one in any case. I would like to see new parties emerge offering a range of differing policies and choices for voters and we are in the EU as a new sovereign country.

Glory Glory

[northstandhibby]

What is this one party dominance thing? The SNP are a minority Government.

They can't even get their budget through Parliament

We're were being hypothetical post independence.

Glory Glory

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm sure that after independence the SNP would disintegrate and the political spectrum would take a familiar form. Not quite the same as it is in the UK because an independent Scotland will have different needs and priorities. I'd fully expect the Green Party to establish itself a play a big role in parliament. There'd also be a few etreme minority parties similar to that what we see in Northern Ireland today.

[McD]

One of the things I don't like post Scottish Independence referendum is that there is an assumption that you must follow the same pattern as everyone else does in subsequent elections or referendums.

I voted yes, I have voted SNP in all elections in my adult life and I voted for the UK to remain within the EU. I do, however, dislike a number of SNP policies and I am happy to be openly critical of ones I disagree with. There seems to have been a train of thought in certain quarters that everyone MUST toe the party line otherwise it is deemed to be treacherous, unpatriotic or disloyal.

It is perfectly reasonable imo that someone could choose to wish Scotland to be Independent from the UK as well as the EU, and I don't think that someone who holds that opinion should be criticised for it.

To win an Indyref2, a convincing argument will need to be put forward to those who voted the other way the last time. Being aggressive, confrontation and critical of choices someone made the last time are less likely to be able to convince those who may be on the swither.


:agree:

[lord bunberry]

I'm sure that after independence the SNP would disintegrate and the political spectrum would take a familiar form. Not quite the same as it is in the UK because an independent Scotland will have different needs and priorities. I'd fully expect the Green Party to establish itself a play a big role in parliament. There'd also be a few etreme minority parties similar to that what we see in Northern Ireland today.
I think the snp would form the first government post independence, but I agree that they wouldn't last much longer after that. I would expect the conservative resurgence to continue once they're freed from the toxic uk brand.

[fulshie]

I think the snp would form the first government post independence, but I agree that they wouldn't last much longer after that. I would expect the conservative resurgence to continue once they're freed from the toxic uk brand.I agree and disagree. The SNP would eventually be voted out and yes to a certain extent the tories would flourish as, unionists would vote for them (for a while) but I think Labour would grow as Scotland still a socialist thinking about itself.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I think the snp would form the first government post independence, but I agree that they wouldn't last much longer after that. I would expect the conservative resurgence to continue once they're freed from the toxic uk brand.

There's all this constant belief that the SNP will be no more-post Indy. The reality is that when we are Independent the SNP will still be at the forefront for the foreseeable future. The Tories in Scotland will always be viewed as what they are. Labour: even more irrelevant given their leaders ineptitude,and the Scottish electorate won't forget.

[fulshie]

There's all this constant belief that the SNP will be no more-post Indy. The reality is that when we are Independent the SNP will still be at the forefront for the foreseeable future. The Tories in Scotland will always be viewed as what they are. Labour: even more irrelevant given their leaders ineptitude,and the Scottish electorate won't forget.I love your "when we're independent" quote. I really hope so.

[northstandhibby]

There's all this constant belief that the SNP will be no more-post Indy. The reality is that when we are Independent the SNP will still be at the forefront for the foreseeable future. The Tories in Scotland will always be viewed as what they are. Labour: even more irrelevant given their leaders ineptitude,and the Scottish electorate won't forget.

That was my line of thinking. The SNP will not wish to give up its power and fortune and will actively fight to relinquish it and the perks it brings. The former unionist parties will be irrelevant and be positioned in a vacuum. It would require a new centrist party to compete with the SNP albeit made up of a coalition of probably formerly experienced politicians who will have to secede their former position.

It will be some time before stability endures however I will quote an eighties retro style saying - No pain No gain.

I cannot abide being ruled by a hard right tory little englander party with Farage and Trump as back ups.

I would suggest the SNP apply to join the EU as soon as is possible to become full members once independence is achieved.

Glory Glory

[lord bunberry]

I agree and disagree. The SNP would eventually be voted out and yes to a certain extent the tories would flourish as, unionists would vote for them (for a while) but I think Labour would grow as Scotland still a socialist thinking about itself.
It's possible that labour would return to former glories, but I would argue that the Green Party could well fill the void as the true socialist party in an independent Scotland. The reason I think this is that I could envisage a fair amount of people on the left side of the snp defecting to the greens.

[lord bunberry]

There's all this constant belief that the SNP will be no more-post Indy. The reality is that when we are Independent the SNP will still be at the forefront for the foreseeable future. The Tories in Scotland will always be viewed as what they are. Labour: even more irrelevant given their leaders ineptitude,and the Scottish electorate won't forget.
I'm not sure that's true. Within my lifetime the tories have been the majority party in Scotland and the opposition to that might come from either the greens or labour. Once you take independence out of the equation, many snp politicians and supporters will revert back to their natural left or right views.
Personally i would like the snp to disband after the first term in office if the political landscape is right to do so. Right now we don't have a credible alternative to the snp, hopefully that will change post independence.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I love your "when we're independent" quote. I really hope so.

Cheers Sandy, got tae believe.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm not sure that's true. Within my lifetime the tories have been the majority party in Scotland and the opposition to that might come from either the greens or labour. Once you take independence out of the equation, many snp politicians and supporters will revert back to their natural left or right views.
Personally i would like the snp to disband after the first term in office if the political landscape is right to do so. Right now we don't have a credible alternative to the snp, hopefully that will change post independence.

Is there a left or right regarding SNP voters?

[lord bunberry]

Is there a left or right regarding SNP voters?
Absolutely. The snp were for a long time branded as tartan tories. The north of Scotland where the snp first gained a proper foothold were traditionally Tory constituencies. In recent times the snp have taken control of former labour heartlands. That presents a real dilemma for the parliamentary party who have imo a majority left of centre representatives, but have to be careful not to alienate the right side of the party. It's the major reason that they don't use all the powers that are allocated to the parliament and the main reason that I think they won't last as a party in an independent Scotland.

[ronaldo7]

One of the things I don't like post Scottish Independence referendum is that there is an assumption that you must follow the same pattern as everyone else does in subsequent elections or referendums.

I voted yes, I have voted SNP in all elections in my adult life and I voted for the UK to remain within the EU. I do, however, dislike a number of SNP policies and I am happy to be openly critical of ones I disagree with. There seems to have been a train of thought in certain quarters that everyone MUST toe the party line otherwise it is deemed to be treacherous, unpatriotic or disloyal.

It is perfectly reasonable imo that someone could choose to wish Scotland to be Independent from the UK as well as the EU, and I don't think that someone who holds that opinion should be criticised for it.

To win an Indyref2, a convincing argument will need to be put forward to those who voted the other way the last time. Being aggressive, confrontation and critical of choices someone made the last time are less likely to be able to convince those who may be on the swither.

:agree: Nicola runs a tight ship, however delegates do, and are allowed to vote against the leadership. It's done constantly at party conference.

I've wanted them to be stronger on Land reform, and the higher rate taxes. We are moving (slowly) on getting more on land reform, and I believe we will see a move towards a higher rate tax in the coming years. These policies will not please all of the people, and as with most policies they do have a tendency to have differing opinions.

I agree on your last paragraph, and the more days that pass on Brexit, the more I hear of people moving from no to YES.

[Slavers]

We had an election about 8 months ago, where the SNP had within their manifesto a direct link to being taken out of the EU as a trigger for another referendum.

What should they do now?

Personally I don't think Scotland needs another referendum on UK independence but if that is the SNP pledge in their manifesto then she should be true to their word and hold the referendum now.

If it is a case of EU over the UK then hold it now as the electorate will have already made their mind up.

[Slavers]

Mostly shoppers it turns out.



From http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-aftermath-uk-gdp-q4-2017-1

And UK manufacturing as a matter of fact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/25/uk-manufacturing-firing-cylinders-amid-record-jump-competitiveness/

[Slavers]

Yeah, it's not like anyone in the UK ever put political short-termism regarding Europe before what's better for the economy, is it?



I suppose I should be grateful you didn't go the whole hog and call her "Wee Jimmie Kranky". :rolleyes: Given the only way she's going to be looking for a new job is if she calls a referendum and loses, thus Scotland is out of the EU, how exactly do you propose she's going to land this stellar job? (Which you've just made up in order to randomly accuse her of naked self interest at the country's expense).



You've clearly swallowed too many Labour press releases. :wink:

It's not about choosing between 2 "unions" or which performs the goodest.

It's about choosing between being a region of a unitary state that's going to be run by right wing isolationist idiots (some of the worst of them Scots, btw) for the next several decades or choosing to be a modern, outward looking, European, independent state among a free association of mutually co-operating independent states. Oh, and bonus!, we get to choose a government that runs Scotland for the benefit of those who want to live here.

Not everyone see's the everything as right wing & left wing and the only way to defeat a right wing tory government is to vote for to remain in the EU to save us all.

There are problems with the EU that people of the UK don't like and they voted to leave. I think its easier to bring about change within the UK than it would be to change the EU. Keep our politics local.

As for wee Jimmy Kranky well you said it not me! One personal point about Nicola Sturgeon i will make is she seems very easy to anger and this anger may be effecting her decision making, hence the over playing her hand on Brexit.

And excuse me for accusing a politician for putting her career before the people or her ideology before whats best the country but i think she does and rightly or wrongly that is my opinion.

[Colr]

Not everyone see's the everything as right wing & left wing and the only way to defeat a right wing tory government is to vote for to remain in the EU to save us all.

There are problems with the EU that people of the UK don't like and they voted to leave. I think its easier to bring about change within the UK than it would be to change the EU. Keep our politics local.

As for wee Jimmy Kranky well you said it not me! One personal point about Nicola Sturgeon i will make is she seems very easy to anger and this anger may be effecting her decision making, hence the over playing her hand on Brexit.

And excuse me for accusing a politician for putting her career before the people or her ideology before whats best the country but i think she does and rightly or wrongly that is my opinion.

If the EU had taken the vote seriously, they might have been able to offer a better compromise to Cameron when he tried to get one. If yet to get the impression that the EU has taken this on board in their reflections. If they don't they will find other countries might go the same way.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If the EU had taken the vote seriously, they might have been able to offer a better compromise to Cameron when he tried to get one. If yet to get the impression that the EU has taken this on board in their reflections. If they don't they will find other countries might go the same way.

Agree with this.

Whats more, their attempts to punish the uk and the inflammatory language used by some of them has been quite offensive, amd laid bare that for too many of them, the EU is the end, and not the means.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the EU had taken the vote seriously, they might have been able to offer a better compromise to Cameron when he tried to get one. If yet to get the impression that the EU has taken this on board in their reflections. If they don't they will find other countries might go the same way.

"Afternoon, Sir. Can we help?"
"Yeah - I want a better deal on my membership."
"OK, here's the best we can do."
"That's not good enough for me."
"Really? No-one else in the club has such a deal."
"Well, I don't like the paying and I don't like the rules. I don't like how we vote. You're all a dictator. I've decided - I'm leaving. I'm cancelling my membership."
"OK"
"But I still want access."
"Right. OK - we can sort out some partial access deal... but you'd need full membership for full access."
"Oh, so you want to punish me for not being a member, eh?!"
"No..."
"Yes, you're punishing me. You're just like a WWII prison guard beating me for trying to escape."
"Um, what? You're free to go..."
"You need me more than I need you!"
"Please go..."

[ronaldo7]

Agree with this.

Whats more, their attempts to punish the uk and the inflammatory language used by some of them has been quite offensive, amd laid bare that for too many of them, the EU is the end, and not the means.

Is this the same as looking after their interests?

[RyeSloan]

Is this the same as looking after their interests?

A very good question indeed Sir! ☝️

[northstandhibby]

"Afternoon, Sir. Can we help?"
"Yeah - I want a better deal on my membership."
"OK, here's the best we can do."
"That's not good enough for me."
"Really? No-one else in the club has such a deal."
"Well, I don't like the paying and I don't like the rules. I don't like how we vote. You're all a dictator. I've decided - I'm leaving. I'm cancelling my membership."
"OK"
"But I still want access."
"Right. OK - we can sort out some partial access deal... but you'd need full membership for full access."
"Oh, so you want to punish me for not being a member, eh?!"
"No..."
"Yes, you're punishing me. You're just like a WWII prison guard beating me for trying to escape."
"Um, what? You're free to go..."
"You need me more than I need you!"
"Please go..."

:not worth

In a nutshell.

It sometimes amazes me just how far some will go to gullibilise their readership or listeners and spin a yarn. The gullibillies indeed.

I am of course referring to Daily mail/Sun/Express etc little englander types who are fed hyperbole over brexit.

Glory Glory

[Hibrandenburg]

:not worth

In a nutshell.

It sometimes amazes me just how far some will go to gullibilise their readership or listeners and spin a yarn. The gullibillies indeed.

I am of course referring to Daily mail/Sun/Express etc little englander types who are fed hyperbole over brexit.

Glory Glory

I'd love to claim credit for it but it comes from UK scientists for the EU page.

[ronaldo7]

It's nice that Theresa doesn't want a hard border with Ireland after Brexit. That will mean No hard border with Scotland if we become Independent. :greengrin

Another one ticked off the list.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/826133451237576704

[Slavers]

If the EU had taken the vote seriously, they might have been able to offer a better compromise to Cameron when he tried to get one. If yet to get the impression that the EU has taken this on board in their reflections. If they don't they will find other countries might go the same way.

Im sure even now they have no interest in negotiation with the UK on Brexit. I think they are hoping it will go away or somehow the UK wont go through with it.

I can see why they have this attitude towards the UK referendum as they seem to pay no attention to the wishes of the people who vote in referendums as per this list:

In 1997 and 2001 Switzerland voted against its government’s wishes to join the EU.
In 1972 Norway voted against its government’s advice to join.
In 1973 Greenland voted to leave the EU, and eventually did leave.
Denmark voted down the Maastricht Treaty favoured by its government. This led to major opt outs from the Treaty including from the Euro before the Danes would consent.
In 2001 Ireland voted against the Nice Treaty. The EU had to grant opt outs from the military union and other matters.
In 2000 Denmark voted against joining the Euro, confirming its earlier vote against Maastricht. Its government still hadn’t got the message.
In 2000 Sweden voted down joining the Euro, and to this day violates the Treaty by not joining.
In 2005 France and the Netherlands voted down the European Constitution. This was rebranded as Lisbon, despite the popular dissent.
In 2008 Ireland voted against Lisbon, but was persuaded to change the view following some changes to their text.
In 2015 Greece voted against the Euro austerity policies, but subsequently gave in
In 2016 The Netherlands, against its government wishes, voted against the EU/Ukraine Agreement, which the EU has ignored.

[RyeSloan]

The ruling today removed May from the equation. It is now up to parliament to decide what type of brexit will be acceptable in a vote. There will be an extraordinary amount of deals being done behind the scenes and I strongly predict a soft brexit will be achieved.

It is in the countries interests and the ruling today allowed the opposition to head off a hard brexit.

Glory Glory

How's that prediction coming along?

[Mr Grieves]

The Labour Party no longer serve a purpose, apart from cheerleading for the tories.

[northstandhibby]

How's that prediction coming along?

Events are being played out just as I thought they would.

And the chances of a soft brexit increased even more post May's embarrassing meeting with Trump. Unfortunately we knew the vote meant we would be leaving the EU but there is every chance there will have to be a compromise to a hard brexit.

Lets wait until the deal is put on the table and we see what's what.

Don't rule anything out just yet!!!

Glory Glory

[RyeSloan]

Events are being played out just as I thought they would.

And the chances of a soft brexit increased even more post May's embarrassing meeting with Trump. Unfortunately we knew the vote meant we would be leaving the EU but there is every chance there will have to be a compromise to a hard brexit.

Lets wait until the deal is put on the table and we see what's what.

Don't rule anything out just yet!!!

Glory Glory

More like not ruling anything in maybe? [emoji12]

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

Aw naw!! Who would have thunk it!!!????

[northstandhibby]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

Aw naw!! Who would have thunk it!!!????

They got what they wanted so I suppose to confess to their wrongdoings they will feel better now that they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU, a kind of post truth. Lets have indy 2 nicola and leave these liars and con-men who duped a nation..

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

They got what they wanted so I suppose to confess to their wrongdoings they will feel better now that they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU, a kind of post truth. Lets have indy 2 nicola and leave these liars and con-men who duped a nation..

glory glory

Post truth? You glibly state that 'they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU"....you confuse present and future tense and present that like a fact when actually you have no idea what so ever if that's going to be the case.

We could spend quite a while going through the lies and mistruths of both campaigns...remember the 'emergency budget' or even better Osbourne claiming immediate and profound economic shock following a vote to leave, some of which predicted:

4 quarters of negative growth

GDP 3.6% lower

Unemployment up 500,000

And that wasn't even their severe shock scenario!

BoE suggested a recession was possible...the IMF agreed.

Last quarter of 2016 GDP? +0.6%

Second half of 2016 GDP? Stronger than the first half.

So knowing what we know now with regards to the immediate economic outcome versus what the Treasury and others predicted who would be best called liars and con men?

[hibsbollah]

Post truth? You glibly state that 'they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU"....you confuse present and future tense and present that like a fact when actually you have no idea what so ever if that's going to be the case.

We could spend quite a while going through the lies and mistruths of both campaigns...remember the 'emergency budget' or even better Osbourne claiming immediate and profound economic shock following a vote to leave, some of which predicted:

4 quarters of negative growth

GDP 3.6% lower

Unemployment up 500,000

And that wasn't even their severe shock scenario!

BoE suggested a recession was possible...the IMF agreed.

Last quarter of 2016 GDP? +0.6%

Second half of 2016 GDP? Stronger than the first half.

So knowing what we know now with regards to the immediate economic outcome versus what the Treasury and others predicted who would be best called liars and con men?

Far be it from me to spring to an odious creature like George Gideon Osborne's defence, but he made those predictions based on when we leave the EU, not following 'the vote to leave'. The truth is, Brexit hasn't happened yet, and its far too early to be self satisfied about economic indicators.

[northstandhibby]

Post truth? You glibly state that 'they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU"....you confuse present and future tense and present that like a fact when actually you have no idea what so ever if that's going to be the case.

We could spend quite a while going through the lies and mistruths of both campaigns...remember the 'emergency budget' or even better Osbourne claiming immediate and profound economic shock following a vote to leave, some of which predicted:

4 quarters of negative growth

GDP 3.6% lower

Unemployment up 500,000

And that wasn't even their severe shock scenario!

BoE suggested a recession was possible...the IMF agreed.

Last quarter of 2016 GDP? +0.6%

Second half of 2016 GDP? Stronger than the first half.

So knowing what we know now with regards to the immediate economic outcome versus what the Treasury and others predicted who would be best called liars and con men?

I'm projecting a longer term scenario of which a hard brexit or no deal at all will certainly make the UK poorer and worse off because of exiting the worlds largest exclusive market on these terms.

The UK is in the eye of a storm at the moment and if it is a hard brexit or no deal at all then no-one can truly predict just how worse off the UK will be. However I doubt anyone other than fervent brexiteers would predict anything other than a rocky road ahead for the UK in light of a hard brexit or no deal at all.

There is no doubt the UK was borrowing too much and the trade deficit was too high but there were indeed signs of a chink of light as to reducing the trade deficit and borrowing prior to brexit.

There is no doubt post brexit the pound has significantly dropped in value helping exports but all that will be lost if there is a hard brexit or no deal at all as the value of the pound will continue to fall and inflation significantly increases as costs rise inexorably.

There are many more points I could make but I don't have the time just now.

There is no doubt in my mind the economy will suffer for the ordinary folk of the UK if it lasts in its present format. The rich won't suffer it will of course be the ordinary folk and the poorest in society as benefits and public services are stripped to the bone and inflation begins to kick in quite dramatically among other things.

glory glory

[Just Alf]

Post truth? You glibly state that 'they've wrecked the UK economy once the UK leaves the EU"....you confuse present and future tense and present that like a fact when actually you have no idea what so ever if that's going to be the case.

We could spend quite a while going through the lies and mistruths of both campaigns...remember the 'emergency budget' or even better Osbourne claiming immediate and profound economic shock following a vote to leave, some of which predicted:

4 quarters of negative growth

GDP 3.6% lower

Unemployment up 500,000

And that wasn't even their severe shock scenario!

BoE suggested a recession was possible...the IMF agreed.

Last quarter of 2016 GDP? +0.6%

Second half of 2016 GDP? Stronger than the first half.

So knowing what we know now with regards to the immediate economic outcome versus what the Treasury and others predicted who would be best called liars and con men?
I get what you're saying overall, but I keep seeing that the "improved" position is down to the shift in currency values.. essentially the Brexit chickens are still milling around and have yet to come home to roost!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

Far be it from me to spring to an odious creature like George Gideon Osborne's defence, but he made those predictions based on when we leave the EU, not following 'the vote to leave'. The truth is, Brexit hasn't happened yet, and its far too early to be self satisfied about economic indicators.

Actually it wasn't....taken directly from the Treasury document:

"A vote to leave would cause an immediate and profound economic shock creating instability and uncertainty which would be compounded by the complex and interdependent negotiations that would follow.
The central conclusion of the analysis is that the effect of this profound shock would be to push the UK into recession and lead to a sharp rise in unemployment."


I do like the fact that I've prompted you to defend Gideon though...there is a prediction no one would have made [emoji12]

[hibsbollah]

Actually it wasn't....taken directly from the Treasury document:

"A vote to leave would cause an immediate and profound economic shock creating instability and uncertainty which would be compounded by the complex and interdependent negotiations that would follow.
The central conclusion of the analysis is that the effect of this profound shock would be to push the UK into recession and lead to a sharp rise in unemployment."

I can be pedantic too! He actually said the vote to leave would causethe immediate shock. So he's not necessarily saying the vote itself is the start of the predicted economic misery.

What he's evidently not saying is that the Brexit misery is going to start before we've even started the process of Brexit yet!

[RyeSloan]

I can be pedantic too! He actually said the vote to leave would causethe immediate shock. So he's not necessarily saying the vote itself is the start of the predicted economic misery.

What he's evidently not saying is that the Brexit misery is going to start before we've even started the process of Brexit yet!

Hey I can be as pedantic as the best of them as you well know but on this occasion I'm seriously not.

This quote from the document is unambiguous...
"The analysis in this HM Treasury document quantifies the impact of that adjustment over the immediate period of two years following a vote to leave."

It is therefore an absolute prediction of what would happen following the vote. That prediction, so far at least, has been proven to be complete nonsense.

[hibsbollah]

Hey I can be as pedantic as the best of them as you well know but on this occasion I'm seriously not.

This quote from the document is unambiguous...

"The analysis in this HM Treasury document quantifies the impact of that adjustment over the immediate period of two years following a vote to leave."

It is therefore an absolute prediction of what would happen following the vote. That prediction, so far at least, has been proven to be complete nonsense.

Well in that case I stand corrected.
Like Super Dave, he was clearly so supremely confident we'd vote Remain that his departments estimates would never need to be challenged.

I always knew he was a bawsack.:agree:

[lord bunberry]

Hey I can be as pedantic as the best of them as you well know but on this occasion I'm seriously not.

This quote from the document is unambiguous...

"The analysis in this HM Treasury document quantifies the impact of that adjustment over the immediate period of two years following a vote to leave."

It is therefore an absolute prediction of what would happen following the vote. That prediction, so far at least, has been proven to be complete nonsense.
He also said there would be a budget the week after a leave vote that would involve Armageddon style cuts.

[northstandhibby]

Well in that case I stand corrected.
Like Super Dave, he was clearly so supremely confident we'd vote Remain that his departments estimates would never need to be challenged.

I always knew he was a bawsack.:agree:

I wouldn't be so quick to correct yourself. There is of course every possibility Gideon ensured his statements over-egged the pudding so to speak as I'm sure any respectable chancellor would have predicted a sharp fall in the pound immediately post victorious brexiteer vote whereby giving exports a massive boost.

The fear campaign orchestrated by Cameron and Gideon gave worst case scenarios that played into the hands of the Ukip/tories and has allowed the brexiteers a narrative of there being no great economic shocks as yet which will play out in the years ahead if there is a hard brexit or no deal at all.

There are always strategies being played out behind the scenes, its called politics.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Goldman Sachs to end it's operations in London, and move staff to the States. We've not Brexited yet and they're deserting in their droves.

[Slavers]

Goldman Sachs to end it's operations in London, and move staff to the States. We've not Brexited yet and they're deserting in their droves.

Some it seems are so desperate for Brexit to be a failure they will exaggerate truths.

In total 8 members of staff leaving - Hardly leaving in droves lol

"Goldman Sachs Group Inc's (GS.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=GS.N)) hedge fund Goldman Sachs Investment Partners (GSIP), which was one of the largest-ever hedge fund launches in history, is closing its London operations and shifting staff members to New York, four sources told Reuters.

About eight staff members who made up the London team were recently told to move to Goldman's Battery Park City headquarters or find a new job internally, said the sources."

[RyeSloan]

I wouldn't be so quick to correct yourself. There is of course every possibility Gideon ensured his statements over-egged the pudding so to speak as I'm sure any respectable chancellor would have predicted a sharp fall in the pound immediately post victorious brexiteer vote whereby giving exports a massive boost.

The fear campaign orchestrated by Cameron and Gideon gave worst case scenarios that played into the hands of the Ukip/tories and has allowed the brexiteers a narrative of there being no great economic shocks as yet which will play out in the years ahead if there is a hard brexit or no deal at all.

There are always strategies being played out behind the scenes, its called politics.

glory glory

I'm not sure this post makes any sense.

Are you saying Gideon deliberately gave completely false predictions?

Can you not simply admit that there was lies and mistruths from both sides and the Remain campaign, through HM Treasury no less, were completely incorrect in their predictions and therefore wholly misled voters?

[Hibrandenburg]

https://youtu.be/75XCEjXMBVk

:faf:

[RyeSloan]

Well in that case I stand corrected.
Like Super Dave, he was clearly so supremely confident we'd vote Remain that his departments estimates would never need to be challenged.

I always knew he was a bawsack.:agree:

To be fair most of the reporting around the Treasury predictions mixed their fantasy 2030 figures and these 2 year predictions....but the clear message is that it just goes to show how (un)reliable these economic models are and how you really can't believe anyone who says with any conviction what an economy is going to be doing in 6 months, 2 years or 10 years time.

Oh and bawsack is probably about right...gawd knows what that makes Gove tho [emoji12]

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure this post makes any sense.

Are you saying Gideon deliberately gave completely false predictions?

Can you not simply admit that there was lies and mistruths from both sides and the Remain campaign, through HM Treasury no less, were completely incorrect in their predictions and therefore wholly misled voters?

As you say, treasury prediction was wrong, but not lie. The Leave campaign on the other hand....

BLATANT LIES

[hibsbollah]

but the clear message is that it just goes to show how (un)reliable these economic models are and how you really can't believe anyone who says with any conviction what an economy is going to be doing in 6 months, 2 years or 10 years time.]

Exactly what I've been saying for years. 2008 made economic forecasting redundant. Despite Vince Cables rather pompous claims that he warned us all about it first.

[northstandhibby]

To be fair most of the reporting around the Treasury predictions mixed their fantasy 2030 figures and these 2 year predictions....but the clear message is that it just goes to show how (un)reliable these economic models are and how you really can't believe anyone who says with any conviction what an economy is going to be doing in 6 months, 2 years or 10 years time.

Oh and bawsack is probably about right...gawd knows what that makes Gove tho [emoji12]

One things for sure and just about anybody could make this prediction is - Most outside investors are going to give the UK a swerve if a hard brexit or no deal at all is the deal. They'll look to invest to countries within the EU single market first and foremost. Big businesses already based here will also be looking to move there too if they're not already doing so.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

I'm not sure this post makes any sense.

Are you saying Gideon deliberately gave completely false predictions?

Can you not simply admit that there was lies and mistruths from both sides and the Remain campaign, through HM Treasury no less, were completely incorrect in their predictions and therefore wholly misled voters?

Sometimes one has to look at the overall picture, take into consideration everything that's went before and predict the next move. Politics is a bit like a game of poker, sleight of hand, strategy, positioning, foresight, bluffing and planning are just some of the necessary elements of being a skilled politician

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

Sometimes one has to look at the overall picture, take into consideration everything that's went before and predict the next move. Politics is a bit like a game of poker, sleight of hand, strategy, positioning, foresight, bluffing and planning are just some of the necessary elements of being a skilled politician

glory glory

So the Treasury report suggesting an economic crash was just bluffing but the Leave campaign was all just lies....got ya [emoji106]

[RyeSloan]

One things for sure and just about anybody could make this prediction is - Most outside investors are going to give the UK a swerve if a hard brexit or no deal at all is the deal. They'll look to invest to countries within the EU single market first and foremost. Big businesses already based here will also be looking to move there too if they're not already doing so.

glory glory

How do you know? Surely you are just assuming that as you have no idea what even a 'hard brexit' will look like.

There was very very similar arguments made when the Euro was introduced, I distinctly remember Frankfurt was going to rule the world if we didn't join. That never came to pass.

In the months since the vote we've seen the likes of Wells Fargo, Apple, Google, Facebook and McKinsey all announcing new HQ's in the U.K...hardly a stampede to Europe.

No denying some sectors will suffer but there is nothing certain that every sector will suffer or indeed that the net effect will even be negative. Then after a period of adjustment it's more than possible that the UK may become an even more attractive place to invest, a lot depends on what deals are struck and what policies are implemented (and of course a myriad of outside factors). To simply state most outside investors are going to give the UK a swerve is complete hyperbole at best.

[Moulin Yarns]

The overall cost of Britain’s break from Europe is expected to be an astronomical £220 billion over four years, dwarfing the NHS budget which was a focal part of the ‘Leave’ campaign.
New forecasts from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) show that government debt is to hit £1.945 trillion in five years, with experts attributing the £220 billion growth to the direct results of Brexit.
A recent report by ITV’s Robert Peston explained: “£78 billion of that is due to the expected post-referendum slowdown in the economy, £16 billion is from government spending and tax decisions, and most of the rest is the result of measures taken by the Bank of England in August to avert recession…



http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-cost-set-to-dwarf-nhs-budget/21/12/

[ronaldo7]

Some it seems are so desperate for Brexit to be a failure they will exaggerate truths.

In total 8 members of staff leaving - Hardly leaving in droves lol

"Goldman Sachs Group Inc's (GS.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=GS.N)) hedge fund Goldman Sachs Investment Partners (GSIP), which was one of the largest-ever hedge fund launches in history, is closing its London operations and shifting staff members to New York, four sources told Reuters.

About eight staff members who made up the London team were recently told to move to Goldman's Battery Park City headquarters or find a new job internally, said the sources."

Not desperate, just realistic. Some others will put their hands over their ears and sing rule brittania whilst the evidence smacks them in the puss.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/23/banks-plan-to-leave-uk-in-early-2017-due-to-brexit-fears-6209581/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3832501/Russian-bank-VTB-considers-leaving-London-Brexit.html

http://fortune.com/2016/06/24/london-brexit-jobs/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-banks-leave-uk-eu-jpmorgan-goldman-sachs-citi-group-deutsche-bank-a7193686.html

Now I'm sure if the shoe had been on the other foot. The Home Team(Theresa and co) would have been shouting from the rooftops. All this movement from business, and Brexit hasn't happened yet.

All this with a backdrop of the UK gov not even having the decency to have responded to the Scot gov paper on Scotland's place in Europe. Instead they march on with their own damaging exit strategy.

I'm not sure the Daily Mail article is kosher though, as Wiki have deemed it as an unreliable source.:aok:

https://t.co/dQCtj3HoiG

Good Luck with that.:aok:

[Slavers]

Sorry it did seem as little desperate when you announced Goldman Sachs were leaving but in fact its only 8 employees. Funny how at one point Goldman Sachs were held up as everything that was wrong in the world now it's a disaster If 8 members of staff leave.

Sure some jobs may leave but they can be replaced. The UK is the fastest growing economy in the western world and even some are predicting that the UK may outpace the rest of the G7 nations for the next 30 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/07/uk-g7-economy-trade-pwc-brexit-us

http://www.cityam.com/258675/uk-economy-gaining-momentum-despite-brexit-fears-says-oecd

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/top-world-britain-outpace-g7-next-three-decades/

It does seem very desperate for Brexit to fail and the UK in general when you only post doom and gloom about It when as you can see others predict realistic positive future.

[ronaldo7]

Sorry it did seem as little desperate when you announced Goldman Sachs were leaving but in fact its only 8 employees. Funny how at one point Goldman Sachs were held up as everything that was wrong in the world now it's a disaster If 8 members of staff leave.

Sure some jobs may leave but they can be replaced. The UK is the fastest growing economy in the western world and even some are predicting that the UK may outpace the rest of the G7 nations for the next 30 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/07/uk-g7-economy-trade-pwc-brexit-us

http://www.cityam.com/258675/uk-economy-gaining-momentum-despite-brexit-fears-says-oecd

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/top-world-britain-outpace-g7-next-three-decades/

It does seem very desperate for Brexit to fail and the UK in general when you only post doom and gloom about It when as you can see others predict realistic positive future.

Sorry if I'm not coming across all British and that, but having been kicked in the nuts so many times, I get rather annoyed. It's allowed.:greengrin

Can you tell me what the positives are for leaving the EU, and the Single Market, whilst having to pay Billions to do so. Money which could have gone to the NHS?

Yesterday the Tories refused to protect EU citizens, abandoned child refugees, and ignored the Scottish Parliament. You happy with that?

Whilst the Uk Gov refuse entry to unaccompanied child refugees, the Scottish Gov will increase training for refugee doctors.

I know which type of country I want to live in, and it's not the one that the Tories are manufacturing.

https://t.co/oqJQN1Wnf5

I know this article is around 4 months old, but as we've not yet Brexited, could you tell me if this is acceptable to you?

https://t.co/5wTGCV4xkZ

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Brexit-Graph.png


At least we know what the Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland budgets are. Brexit on the other hand is a projection for a blank cheque

[Hibbyradge]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/829437810482425857?s=09

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/829437810482425857?s=09

Some of the comments connected to that Tweet make dire reading.

[Hibbyradge]

Boris Johnston campaihned for Brexit using the slogan "Give £350m per week to the NHS".

Last night, he voted against doing exactly that.

[RyeSloan]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Brexit-Graph.png


At least we know what the Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland budgets are. Brexit on the other hand is a projection for a blank cheque

It's interesting to look at that £220bn figure and see what it's actually made up of...

Looking at the OBR paper it's yet again largely driven by expectations of economic slow down...guesstimates at best and as we have already seen these forecasts need to be treated with a lot of care. Even then I don't get to Peston's figure of £78bn.

However the biggest chunk is caused by the BoE's actions. They looked premature at the time and really a case of needing to be seen to do something rather than actually needing to do anything.

Anyway leaving that aside £85bn of the £100bn is TFS usage...which is essentially cheap loans to banks to 'encourage' them to pass on the low interest rate to consumers. TFS though is backed by collateral and unwinds after 4 years.

Another £17bn is the bank buying gilts at a premium, quite why they felt the need to do that at least 2 years before any leaving of the EU I'll leave to Carney to explain (lots of long words, no real justification I would guess)

Finally there is £10bn buying corporate bonds. At least this provides an asset for the expense but again quite why we are adding £10bn to the PSND buying bonds in Apple I have no idea and I have even less idea of how Brexit gets landed with the bill.

In other words, sure there may be a cost but the £220bn figure bears no scrutiny and a big whack of that has been a result of voluntary action by the BoE.

[Just Alf]

I get the discussions about how much Brexit will/wont/maybe cost but the bottom.line I always remember,.... the Norwegian Prime Minister stated before the vote that to get access to the common market they paid into the pot approximately the same amount as the UK on a per capita basis but with no voting rights.

I do worry we'll end up in a similar financial position as before but with vastly reduced "clout ",

In fact you.could argue that's the best position we can hope for at the moment!


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

These figures from the OBR. Oh well, the NHS will have to wait.

https://t.co/Ex6zndfvwL

[steakbake]

It's interesting to look at that £220bn figure and see what it's actually made up of...

Looking at the OBR paper it's yet again largely driven by expectations of economic slow down...guesstimates at best and as we have already seen these forecasts need to be treated with a lot of care. Even then I don't get to Peston's figure of £78bn.

However the biggest chunk is caused by the BoE's actions. They looked premature at the time and really a case of needing to be seen to do something rather than actually needing to do anything.

Anyway leaving that aside £85bn of the £100bn is TFS usage...which is essentially cheap loans to banks to 'encourage' them to pass on the low interest rate to consumers. TFS though is backed by collateral and unwinds after 4 years.

Another £17bn is the bank buying gilts at a premium, quite why they felt the need to do that at least 2 years before any leaving of the EU I'll leave to Carney to explain (lots of long words, no real justification I would guess)

Finally there is £10bn buying corporate bonds. At least this provides an asset for the expense but again quite why we are adding £10bn to the PSND buying bonds in Apple I have no idea and I have even less idea of how Brexit gets landed with the bill.

In other words, sure there may be a cost but the £220bn figure bears no scrutiny and a big whack of that has been a result of voluntary action by the BoE.

Is that the equivalent of saying don't worry lads, we only actually owe ourselves?

[Glory Lurker]

The refrain of the unionist parties is that the SNP should work with Westminster to help secure the best deal possible for the U.K.. Could anyone tell me what Sco Gov could actually do to bolster the U.K. negotiations? Genuine question, as they say.

[johnbc70]

The refrain of the unionist parties is that the SNP should work with Westminster to help secure the best deal possible for the U.K.. Could anyone tell me what Sco Gov could actually do to bolster the U.K. negotiations? Genuine question, as they say.

Work with them to ensure the UK, of which Scotland is a part of, gets the best possible deal? A good start maybe?

[Glory Lurker]

Work with them to ensure the UK, of which Scotland is a part of, gets the best possible deal? A good start maybe?

But what work would they actually do? I don't see what a devolved government can do in negotiations that are all about reserved areas.

[northstandhibby]

But what work would they actually do? I don't see what a devolved government can do in negotiations that are all about reserved areas.

Especially one that's been told it has no leverage in any 'negotiations'. Its a bit like the boss asking what you think of their idea, a rhetorical question.

glory glory

[JeMeSouviens]

The refrain of the unionist parties is that the SNP should work with Westminster to help secure the best deal possible for the U.K.. Could anyone tell me what Sco Gov could actually do to bolster the U.K. negotiations? Genuine question, as they say.

Sit down, shut up. :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

The refrain of the unionist parties is that the SNP should work with Westminster to help secure the best deal possible for the U.K.. Could anyone tell me what Sco Gov could actually do to bolster the U.K. negotiations? Genuine question, as they say.

This is what the Prime Minister said in her first visit to Scotland after she was "Elected" by the few.

"I have already said that I won't be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations - I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50."

The Scottish Parliament, only last week, voted not to trigger article 50. She then decided to press ahead regardless.

The Scot Gov have already produced a compromise, Scotland's place in Europe set out several options for the UK Gov to take forward, only for Theresa May to brush it aside at her speech at Lancaster house, She hadn't even responded to the document when she set out her 12 point "PLAN".


The joint ministerial committee have sat a couple of times, and ALL devolved governments have left saying they were being sidelined.

What more are the Scottish Gov/Scottish Parliament supposed to do?

It's clear to me, that what they mean by getting involved, is to sit in the corner and lap up what they deign to be the way forward.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is what the Prime Minister said in her first visit to Scotland after she was "Elected" by the few.

"I have already said that I won't be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations - I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50."

The Scottish Parliament, only last week, voted not to trigger article 50. She then decided to press ahead regardless.

The Scot Gov have already produced a compromise, Scotland's place in Europe set out several options for the UK Gov to take forward, only for Theresa May to brush it aside at her speech at Lancaster house, She hadn't even responded to the document when she set out her 12 point "PLAN".


The joint ministerial committee have sat a couple of times, and ALL devolved governments have left saying they were being sidelined.

What more are the Scottish Gov/Scottish Parliament supposed to do?

It's clear to me, that what they mean by getting involved, is to sit in the corner and lap up what they deign to be the way forward.

You,
and others on this thread may want to come to Pitlochry next Friday.


https://pitlochryfestivaltheatre.com/production/29393/what-next-for-scotland/


What’s Next For Scotland?Alex Massie, Gerry Hassan and Nicola McEwen | Chaired by Ruth WishartJoin us for a topical, informed discussion on the challenges that face Scotland, following an unprecedented year in national and international politics, and looking forward to a future landscape that few can yet imagine.
The discussion will be led by a panel of Scotland’s most celebrated journalists and writers: Alex Massie (Scotland Editor of The Spectator), Gerry Hassan (columnist for The Guardian) and Nicola McEwen (Professor of Politics at the University of Edinburgh and Associate Director of the ESRC Centre on Constitutional Change). The discussion will be chaired by journalist and broadcaster, Ruth Wishart.
Following the discussion, you will have the chance to have your burning questions answered.
Questions for the panel may be submitted in advance by emailing [email protected] or write to Pitlochry Festival Theatre, Port Na Craig, Ptilochry, PH16 5DR. The final selection will be at the discretion of Pitlochry Festival Theatre and members of the panel.

[Glory Lurker]

If I could make it up to Pitlochry, Mr Fleece, I would. Sounds a good event, and no doubt will be well attended. Is it likely to be filmed?

[northstandhibby]

Just a flavour of the difficulties ahead as the tories plough on regardless. The EU nations are well within their rights to insist proper negotiations are adhered to and legally binding agreements on migration for both sides as the tories appear to want them to roll over to their demands. I suggest a rocky road ahead if the tories continue trying to bulldoze their way through brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-treatment-of-eu-nationals-could-lead-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu

glory glory

[heretoday]

Never mind, folks. Tony Blair is back and he's mad about Brexit. We can reverse this, apparently.
It's a shame we can't reverse some of the damage caused by his warlike tendencies but there you go.

[The Tubs]

Sorry it did seem as little desperate when you announced Goldman Sachs were leaving but in fact its only 8 employees. Funny how at one point Goldman Sachs were held up as everything that was wrong in the world now it's a disaster If 8 members of staff leave.

Sure some jobs may leave but they can be replaced. The UK is the fastest growing economy in the western world and even some are predicting that the UK may outpace the rest of the G7 nations for the next 30 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/07/uk-g7-economy-trade-pwc-brexit-us

http://www.cityam.com/258675/uk-economy-gaining-momentum-despite-brexit-fears-says-oecd

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/top-world-britain-outpace-g7-next-three-decades/

It does seem very desperate for Brexit to fail and the UK in general when you only post doom and gloom about It when as you can see others predict realistic positive future.

Jumping ship creates a lot of economic activity.

[marinello59]

Never mind, folks. Tony Blair is back and he's mad about Brexit. We can reverse this, apparently.
It's a shame we can't reverse some of the damage caused by his warlike tendencies but there you go.

He is right in what he is saying though isn't he? He is toxic because of the Iraq war but if he can kickstart something that's a good thing isn't it? He is probably not the man to lead this but he might just convince another big hitter to come forward.

[Moulin Yarns]

I hadn't come across this before



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

[heretoday]

He is right in what he is saying though isn't he? He is toxic because of the Iraq war but if he can kickstart something that's a good thing isn't it? He is probably not the man to lead this but he might just convince another big hitter to come forward.

Just as long as that other big hitter isn't Gordon Brown!

You're right. Blair reemerges as a big figure at a time when we are run by pygmies. Imagine us having to take being preached to by second-raters like David Davis and Iain Duncan Smith, an oaf like Johnson and a small town Tory party type like May?

Iraq is a stain on Blair but if he can come up with something he'll clean off some of it.

[grunt]

I hadn't come across this before
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028Thanks, interesting page.

[pacoluna]

I hadn't come across this before



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

not the first time younger voters have been shafted

[RyeSloan]

not the first time younger voters have been shafted

'Shafted' you mean not in the majority...interesting that there was a direct correlation to the turnout being lower in areas of lower age voters.

Also that Scotland was so against the common market in the 70's yet 40 years on was rather the opposite. I can only imagine the outrage there must have been against being dragged into the common market against its will [emoji84]

[grunt]

Also that Scotland was so against the common market in the 70's yet 40 years on was rather the opposite. I can only imagine the outrage there must have been against being dragged into the common market against its will [emoji84]Of course how people felt 40 years ago is completely irrelevant. We're living with the situation now, and we are being dragged out of the EU against our will.

[pontius pilate]

Of course how people felt 40 years ago is completely irrelevant. We're living with the situation now, and we are being dragged out of the EU against our will.

We are not being dragged out against our will. The question as we all know was a UK one not a district one. Interesting that there is a few areas in Scotland that were close would the SNP and remainers still be beating the same line of Angus Dumfries and Galloway and the Shetland voted leave?.
Not having a go in any way.

GGTTH

[BroxburnHibee]

What's Blair doing? What's the end game here?

Is it just an attempt to repair some of the damage his credibility has taken or is he really thinking about taking another shot at public service.

Surely his brand is too toxic? Even for a rudderless Labour party?

[RyeSloan]

Of course how people felt 40 years ago is completely irrelevant. We're living with the situation now, and we are being dragged out of the EU against our will.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek but it's is mildly ironic that there is such a furore about being 'dragged' out of the EU against our will when our will was never to join it (or its younger brethren) in the first place!

[grunt]

We are not being dragged out against our will. The question as we all know was a UK one not a district one. Well, I'm being dragged out against my will.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was being slightly tongue in cheek but it's is mildly ironic that there is such a furore about being 'dragged' out of the EU against our will when our will was never to join it (or its younger brethren) in the first place!

Forty years ago the vast majority of people in the UK were too young to vote so it's irrelevant in the sense of "we".

[RyeSloan]

Forty years ago the vast majority of people in the UK were too young to vote so it's irrelevant in the sense of "we".

Hee hee well aye but probably about 25% of the voting population was so not exactly nobody.

As it is I'm not entirely sure you can't draw historical parallels about events that have impacted a nation just because some of the population have died from when the first event happened.

Anyway as I said it wasn't an entirely serious point, more of a mildly ironic mildly amusing (to me only maybe [emoji12]) observation...

[beensaidbefore]

He is right in what he is saying though isn't he? He is toxic because of the Iraq war but if he can kickstart something that's a good thing isn't it? He is probably not the man to lead this but he might just convince another big hitter to come forward.

No, because we voted to leave and his input is just winding folk up when we should all be pulling together to get the best deal possible for our country. He had his chance and messed things up. He could have made far more positive changes when in power but chose to jump ship leaving his pal Gordon to take the backlash and in turn effectively started the demise of the labour party.

[beensaidbefore]

Just as long as that other big hitter isn't Gordon Brown!

You're right. Blair reemerges as a big figure at a time when we are run by pygmies. Imagine us having to take being preached to by second-raters like David Davis and Iain Duncan Smith, an oaf like Johnson and a small town Tory party type like May?

Iraq is a stain on Blair but if he can come up with something he'll clean off some of it.


The guy is a total liar and shafted Gordon Brown. We wouldn't have even voted for brexit if it wasn't for some of the labour policies which carried on. Like the tories before them.

[grunt]

No, because we voted to leave and his input is just winding folk up when we should all be pulling together to get the best deal possible for our country. The vote to leave was won by an extremely narrow margin. In my view we shouldn't be making such a major strategic change on such a narrow margin. And I think he is trying to make the best deal for our country. The best deal for our country is to stay in the EU.

[beensaidbefore]

The vote to leave was won by an extremely narrow margin. In my view we shouldn't be making such a major strategic change on such a narrow margin. And I think he is trying to make the best deal for our country. The best deal for our country is to stay in the EU.

I hear what you are saying, but why would we trust someone with proven track record of making decisions that weren't always in the best interests of the country. One bitten, twice shy.

[grunt]

I hear what you are saying, but why would we trust someone with proven track record of making decisions that weren't always in the best interests of the country. One bitten, twice shy.
I don't think I'm particularly trusting him. I just happen to agree with him. No trust involved on my part.

[Slavers]

I think Tony Blair is a globalist who is part of an agenda that wants to destroy the nation states and centralize power for the few over the many.

He is not interested in whats good for the country or any country as i think he follows the elitist agenda just as he did with the war in Iraq.

Recently some head honcho wants more europe to solve it's problems, simply meaning less power for the governments of nations and more power to the political elites in the EU.

Get to France Tony Blair! You will never wash the blood of your hands!

[beensaidbefore]

I don't think I'm particularly trusting him. I just happen to agree with him. No trust involved on my part.

I don't agree that he would have our best interests at heart. I don't think he did when in power, and I can't see he would now.

[RyeSloan]

The vote to leave was won by an extremely narrow margin. In my view we shouldn't be making such a major strategic change on such a narrow margin. And I think he is trying to make the best deal for our country. The best deal for our country is to stay in the EU.

Yeah maybe we should have dusted off the Scotland Act of 1978 on how to run a vote to ensure the majority lost...

[grunt]

Yeah maybe we should have dusted off the Scotland Act of 1978 on how to run a vote to ensure the majority lost...

It's difficult to tell, but I suspect your post might be a wee bit sarcastic. But it's not at all unusual for changes of this scale to require a supermajority before the change is passed. If this was a company voting on a change of its constitution this vote would have required a 75% majority. As it is there is a tiny majority and nothing like the 'clear mandate' that May and Davis go on about.

[northstandhibby]

It's difficult to tell, but I suspect your post might be a wee bit sarcastic. But it's not at all unusual for changes of this scale to require a supermajority before the change is passed. If this was a company voting on a change of its constitution this vote would have required a 75% majority. As it is there is a tiny majority and nothing like the 'clear mandate' that May and Davis go on about.

Good point. Additionally I suspect if there was a re-run of the vote in the near future Remain would win. Brexit is a disastrous turn of events and its for the common good that Blair is speaking out with hopefully more to follow.

glory glory

[lord bunberry]

He is right in what he is saying though isn't he? He is toxic because of the Iraq war but if he can kickstart something that's a good thing isn't it? He is probably not the man to lead this but he might just convince another big hitter to come forward.
I'm not sure he is right. If someone from the other side decides to start a similar movement, who has the most legitimacy? Referendums are very blunt instruments and no matter how close they are, there has to be a winner and a loser. I don't agree with the result, but it happened. Any moves to reverse the result would lead to a modern day civil war.
At least in our country we have other options.

[northstandhibby]

I'm not sure he is right. If someone from the other side decides to start a similar movement, who has the most legitimacy? Referendums are very blunt instruments and no matter how close they are, there has to be a winner and a loser. I don't agree with the result, but it happened. Any moves to reverse the result would lead to a modern day civil war.
At least in our country we have other options.

Not saying your'e wrong but it may be there is more chance of a civil war post activating article 50 once folk realise there was no pot of gold to be found at the brexiteers travel of direction.

glory glory

[lord bunberry]

Not saying your'e wrong but it may be there is more chance of a civil war post activating article 50 once folk realise there was no pot of gold to be found at the brexiteers travel of direction.

glory glory
To the victor goes the spoils unfortunately. By the time the brexit reality hits home it will be too late for any sort of meaningful protest. It will be rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic by that stage.
Time to get out of this mess while we still can.

[northstandhibby]

To the victor goes the spoils unfortunately. By the time the brexit reality hits home it will be too late for any sort of meaningful protest. It will be rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic by that stage.
Time to get out of this mess while we still can.

:top marks:top marks:top marks

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

You,
and others on this thread may want to come to Pitlochry next Friday.


https://pitlochryfestivaltheatre.com/production/29393/what-next-for-scotland/


Replying to my own post.

It was a very good debate, and it was interesting to see how much the three panelists agreed on.

I have to say I don't like Alex Massie, but he made some good points. but the most interesting points IMHO came from Gerry Hassan.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/gerry-hassan/day-britain-died-brexit-trump-and-scottish-independence

There was clear agreement that #indyref2 before Brexit would lose as there is not enough known yet about Brexit and it is better to wait until 2021-2

While #Indyref1 support rose from 30 to 45% in 2 years, the rise from 45 to around 60% will be more diffficult.


As an aside, I got my tax summary this week and I paid a contribution towards the EU budget of 1.1% of my tax, compared to 5.3% on National debt Interest and 5.2% on Defence. The point I am trying to make is that the EU doesn't cost as much as people think, but coming out of Europe will cost more.

[RyeSloan]

It's difficult to tell, but I suspect your post might be a wee bit sarcastic. But it's not at all unusual for changes of this scale to require a supermajority before the change is passed. If this was a company voting on a change of its constitution this vote would have required a 75% majority. As it is there is a tiny majority and nothing like the 'clear mandate' that May and Davis go on about.

Not it wasn't sarcastic (for once [emoji57])

The Scotland Act was a perfect example of such a ploy...it only serves to keep the status quo.

I very much doubt any Indy campaigners will be supporting the idea of a super majority required to gain independence, about as big a change as you could envisage.

Then there is the matter that you can simply turn the question around depending on what outcome you want.

Asking if we should stay in the EU is exactly the same as should we leave the EU but not when 75% is required to carry the vote!

I do get your point though in that a narrow majority for such a large change can seem somewhat unfair to the very large minority but the alternative of creating requirements for super majorities seems to create even more scope for unfairness and gerrymandering, in my mind at least.

[grunt]

Not it wasn't sarcastic (for once [emoji57])

The Scotland Act was a perfect example of such a ploy...it only serves to keep the status quo.

I very much doubt any Indy campaigners will be supporting the idea of a super majority required to gain independence, about as big a change as you could envisage.

Then there is the matter that you can simply turn the question around depending on what outcome you want.

Asking if we should stay in the EU is exactly the same as should we leave the EU but not when 75% is required to carry the vote!

I do get your point though in that a narrow majority for such a large change can seem somewhat unfair to the very large minority but the alternative of creating requirements for super majorities seems to create even more scope for unfairness and gerrymandering, in my mind at least.
Thanks for your considered reply. And I understand the problems of requiring a supermajority, and then you remind me that if I continue arguing at this, then I'll talk myself into a supermajority on independence, so that's a very good point.

I guess what I'm really after is a return to parliamentary democracy, where we elect people to make these decisions for us. And yes, I'd like the status quo.

And while you've got me thinking, I'm wondering whether I would still be calling for indyref2 if Brexit hadn't happened, and I guess the answer is no. It's a game changer.

[snooky]

I think Tony Blair is a globalist who is part of an agenda that wants to destroy the nation states and centralize power for the few over the many.

He is not interested in whats good for the country or any country as i think he follows the elitist agenda just as he did with the war in Iraq.

Recently some head honcho wants more europe to solve it's problems, simply meaning less power for the governments of nations and more power to the political elites in the EU.

Get to France Tony Blair! You will never wash the blood of your hands!

Ah well, that's the kiss of death for the "Stay In" side as Tony Blair (aka 'Charles Lyndon') sticks his salesman's foot in the door. :dead:

[Slavers]

Ah well, that's the kiss of death for the "Stay In" side as Tony Blair (aka 'Charles Lyndon') sticks his salesman's foot in the door. :dead:

The man should be locked up! Him Soros and along with the other globalists who have caused war and unrest throughout the world should be jailed.

But now he is the poster boy for the remain campaign. I voted leave the EU and his allegiance to remain makes me feel i have done the right thing.

[marinello59]

The man should be locked up! Him Soros and along with the other globalists who have caused war and unrest throughout the world should be jailed.

But now he is the poster boy for the remain campaign. I voted leave the EU and his allegiance to remain makes me feel i have done the right thing.

He's not the poster boy for the remain campaign.

[RyeSloan]

Thanks for your considered reply. And I understand the problems of requiring a supermajority, and then you remind me that if I continue arguing at this, then I'll talk myself into a supermajority on independence, so that's a very good point.

I guess what I'm really after is a return to parliamentary democracy, where we elect people to make these decisions for us. And yes, I'd like the status quo.

And while you've got me thinking, I'm wondering whether I would still be calling for indyref2 if Brexit hadn't happened, and I guess the answer is no. It's a game changer.

Ahh but then we get into the realms of FPTP and what real democratic representation looks like [emoji13]

I agree in general though I'm not a fan of referendums. Often the question is very simple for what is a complex and nuanced issue and as we have seen the 'debate' ahead of such votes rarely gets to the points that matter.

As for Indy2 my position is clear...there was a vote and we should stick to the result and the consequences (being held to a future UK wide vote) Going back in time (as Blair seems to want to do) and saying 'well if we known then what we know now it would be different' just opens up a huge can of worms. What if we had known oil would slump to $50 when the white paper came out, how would that have influenced people? Or there would be no economic crash or emergency budget following a leave vote?The list goes on and on and I find it difficult that people can choose a single (albeit big) issue and use that as justification in isolation.

That said I see why people think otherwise and respect their choice in doing so, I just don't happen to agree! [emoji23]

[steakbake]

Super majorities in a country which doesn't have compulsory voting is ridiculous. I say the same about any election, any referendum: the people that vote should be counted. If you don't vote, it's neither a vote for change or a vote for the status quo. It's just gerrymandering.

If indyref2 happens, it must be on the same premise as the first. The petition doing the rounds at the moment for non-resident Scots is also a nonsense, though I know it means people I know would not get a vote.

[Slavers]

He's not the poster boy for the remain campaign.

Someone needs to tell him that then!

[marinello59]

Someone needs to tell him that then!

Nope. The only people who would call him that would be die hard Brexiteers like yourself as a deragatory term. Even Blair will be aware he is toxic.

[makaveli1875]

i like tony blairs call to rise up against brexit

a bit like when millions of people decided to rise up against his illegal invasion of iraq

from what i recall Tony ignored that particular uprising and sent us to war regardless

[ronaldo7]

Mon the Wunderbar Germans.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10362/senior-german-mep-warns-tories-mess-eu-and-we-ll-take-scotland-s-side

[RyeSloan]

Mon the Wunderbar Germans.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10362/senior-german-mep-warns-tories-mess-eu-and-we-ll-take-scotland-s-side

Funny how independence in Europe gives us a seat at the table so our voice will be heard but we have SNP MP's stating that Senior German politicians can state that they have the ability right now to decide that Scotland wouid be fast tracked...I wonder how many voices he has listened to before making that bold claim.

[ronaldo7]

Funny how independence in Europe gives us a seat at the table so our voice will be heard but we have SNP MP's stating that Senior German politicians can state that they have the ability right now to decide that Scotland wouid be fast tracked...I wonder how many voices he has listened to before making that bold claim.

Isn't it Wunderbar though.:greengrin

[northstandhibby]

Funny how independence in Europe gives us a seat at the table so our voice will be heard but we have SNP MP's stating that Senior German politicians can state that they have the ability right now to decide that Scotland wouid be fast tracked...I wonder how many voices he has listened to before making that bold claim.

There is going to be a second indy ref sooner rather than later Si mar as the tories make it clear they are hell bent on a hard brexit or no deal at all. I can only see one winner too and that would be the SNP as the Scots will not stomach a bunch of right wing tories trying to sell us the reverse argument they sold to the brexiteers of self independence and the circumstances of leaving the EU and very probably all of its institutions is a monumental gamechanger of which the brexiteers have only themselves to blame. Maybe the Lords can throw a spanner in the works mibbes aye mibbes naw. There are influential SNP members voicing their wish for the second indy ref to be outlined soon.

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

Isn't it Wunderbar though.:greengrin

Yeah Germany clearly thinking it can unilaterally set EU policy is totally Wunderbar...that will stand us in great stead.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah Germany clearly thinking it can unilaterally set EU policy is totally Wunderbar...that will stand us in great stead.

Intetesting take on that story, complete horse**** but interesting.

[RyeSloan]

There is going to be a second indy ref sooner rather than later Si mar as the tories make it clear they are hell bent on a hard brexit or no deal at all. I can only see one winner too and that would be the SNP as the Scots will not stomach a bunch of right wing tories trying to sell us the reverse argument they sold to the brexiteers of self independence and the circumstances of leaving the EU and very probably all of its institutions is a monumental gamechanger of which the brexiteers have only themselves to blame. Maybe the Lords can throw a spanner in the works mibbes aye mibbes naw. There are influential SNP members voicing their wish for the second indy ref to be outlined soon.

glory glory

I honesty think you see what you want to see a lot of the time...the 'game changing' Supreme Court decision for example.

What will be will be and I'm sure the SNP will battle to get Indy2 off the ground as hard as they can but anecdotally I honestly see little desire for one in the wider population just now.

So who knows what can happen in the 2 years or so it will take to complete the negotiations nor what the outcome of them will be so who knows what the mood of the nation will be then.

I'd also politely suggest that you start to realise that it's not just right wing Tories that do not want another Indy ref, Indy or can see that leaving the EU might not actually make the sky fall down...your repeated reference to them as being the only reason any of that is happening or not happening ignores the simple fact that two referendums of millions of people decided the outcome of the questions asked.

[northstandhibby]

I honesty think you see what you want to see a lot of the time...the 'game changing' Supreme Court decision for example.

What will be will be and I'm sure the SNP will battle to get Indy2 off the ground as hard as they can but anecdotally I honestly see little desire for one in the wider population just now.

So who knows what can happen in the 2 years or so it will take to complete the negotiations nor what the outcome of them will be so who knows what the mood of the nation will be then.

I'd also politely suggest that you start to realise that it's not just right wing Tories that do not want another Indy ref, Indy or can see that leaving the EU might not actually make the sky fall down...your repeated reference to them as being the only reason any of that is happening or not happening ignores the simple fact that two referendums of millions of people decided the outcome of the questions asked.

I don't recall stating its only right wing tories that don't want another Indy ref. I'm sure there are plenty of folk other than them who don't support another indy vote. However its looking increasingly likely there will be another one sooner rather than later. Personally I now hope there is another one soon as pulling the UK out with a hard brexit or no deal at all is monstrously damaging to UK business and its citizens. I don't think anyone can credibly state tearing Scotland out of the EU against its wishes is not a game changer, after all remaining in the EU was one of the arguments used by the No campaign. Isn't it an incongruous position to argue for independence from the EU but then wish to deny Scotland another indy ref for similar type independence from the UK if her elected politicians call for one?

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

I don't recall stating its only right wing tories that don't want another Indy ref. I'm sure there are plenty of folk other than them who don't support another indy vote. However its looking increasingly likely there will be another one sooner rather than later. Personally I now hope there is another one soon as pulling the UK out with a hard brexit or no deal at all is monstrously damaging to UK business and its citizens. I don't think anyone can credibly state tearing Scotland out of the EU against its wishes is not a game changer, after all remaining in the EU was one of the arguments used by the No campaign. Isn't it an incongruous position to argue for independence from the EU but then wish to deny Scotland another indy ref for similar type independence from the UK if her elected politicians call for one?

glory glory

We've been here before but I'll go one more time...part of the deal in Scotland voting to stay in the U.K. Was the fact that it would be beholden to U.K. Wide votes, seems a pretty straight forward concept.

As for the 'it was an argument used in the NO vote campaign' well yes it was but so was a ridiculous oil price used in the Yes campaign...that never came to pass so you can list plenty things that were said by both sides as having changed since the vote. As I've said before using single issues, even large ones, in isolation to claim 'game changers' is a bit of a stretch, especially when membership of the EU was merely one of many arguments put forward. Furthermore Scotland would still face exactly the same challenges to joining the EU than what it faced in 2014, namely it is not a current member and the EU has conveniently and consistently failed to explain any 'special' process for Scotland to join.

And while there may be some parallels to the UK leaving the EU to Scotland leaving the U.K. there are clearly massive differences not least that the Union is substantially older and more established, that we share a land border, is by far our biggest trade partner and that Westminster has been the opposite of a centralising political force that the EU is...

And finally you state leaving the EU will be 'monstrously damaging' without having any idea of what the deal will be or the impact of it. You are assuming this to be the case and presenting that as a fact to further your point of view yet you cannot with any certainty give one single detail of what a post EU UK will look like.

[ronaldo7]

Yeah Germany clearly thinking it can unilaterally set EU policy is totally Wunderbar...that will stand us in great stead.


I honesty think you see what you want to see a lot of the time...the 'game changing' Supreme Court decision for example.

What will be will be and I'm sure the SNP will battle to get Indy2 off the ground as hard as they can but anecdotally I honestly see little desire for one in the wider population just now.

So who knows what can happen in the 2 years or so it will take to complete the negotiations nor what the outcome of them will be so who knows what the mood of the nation will be then.

I'd also politely suggest that you start to realise that it's not just right wing Tories that do not want another Indy ref, Indy or can see that leaving the EU might not actually make the sky fall down...your repeated reference to them as being the only reason any of that is happening or not happening ignores the simple fact that two referendums of millions of people decided the outcome of the questions asked.

Brilliant, a few conversations tween some Europeans, and the Germans are rolling over anything, and anyone.

[ronaldo7]

It's not just the Germans who are loving the Scots these days.

Ms Hughes and Mr Lock write: “There is considerable political goodwill to Scotland in EU capitals since it is facing Brexit despite having voted to remain. “The political goodwill, on current trends, is likely to feed into an effort to fast-track Scotland’s EU membership in the event of an independence vote.”

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/an-independent-scotland-could-be-fast-tracked-into-the-eu-1-4371192

[RyeSloan]

Brilliant, a few conversations tween some Europeans, and the Germans are rolling over anything, and anyone.


SNP MP John Nicholson, who just returned from a diplomatic visit to Berlin, welcomed that: “Senior German politicians [are] now making it clear that Scotland wouid be fast tracked for EU re-entry following independence.”

That sounds like someone stating a fact but now it's morphed into 'a few conversations'....albeit 'wunderbar' ones.

[ronaldo7]

SNP MP John Nicholson, who just returned from a diplomatic visit to Berlin, welcomed that: “Senior German politicians [are] now making it clear that Scotland wouid be fast tracked for EU re-entry following independence.”

That sounds like someone stating a fact but now it's morphed into 'a few conversations'....albeit 'wunderbar' ones.

You must have missed all those other conversations with the many different countries that our government have been having. Or is it just that you're not listening anymore.👂

[RyeSloan]

You must have missed all those other conversations with the many different countries that our government have been having. Or is it just that you're not listening anymore.[emoji101]

So where is the evidence that the German politicians statement was based on fact?

I'm certainly listening but I'm not hearing anything different...in fact did Jacqueline Minor not just say that Scotland would be treated no differently in that Article 49 would be the starting point?

So it's pretty apparent that 'fast track' simply means Scotland's application 'might' move faster than others but there has been no definitive confirmation beyond the fact that there would be no automatic membership just because we are or were part of a member state.

[Moulin Yarns]

So where is the evidence that the German politicians statement was based on fact?

I'm certainly listening but I'm not hearing anything different...in fact did Jacqueline Minor not just say that Scotland would be treated no differently in that Article 49 would be the starting point?

So it's pretty apparent that 'fast track' simply means Scotland's application 'might' move faster than others but there has been no definitive confirmation beyond the fact that there would be no automatic membership just because we are or were part of a member state.

I think the 'fast track' is because Scotland has already adopted, whether directly or as part of the UK, all EU regulations, directives and laws where other nation states have still to go through that process and therefore the process would be a lot quicker for IScotland. At least that's what I understood from the 2 political analysts I spoke to recently. So I don't think there is any 'might' about it.

As I said, listening to political academics and analysts is much more enlightening than the media.

http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

[RyeSloan]

I think the 'fast track' is because Scotland has already adopted, whether directly or as part of the UK, all EU regulations, directives and laws where other nation states have still to go through that process and therefore the process would be a lot quicker for IScotland. At least that's what I understood from the 2 political analysts I spoke to recently. So I don't think there is any 'might' about it.

As I said, listening to political academics and analysts is much more enlightening than the media.

http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I agree that there should be less hurdles therefore common sense would dictate that an application would go quicker however that's not certain by any means as the Commissions spokesperson has stated recently:

“Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

There is a couple of 'mights' in there and also I've seen no definition of what 'faster' means...as the EU is hardly famed for its fleet of foot.

Her example of Montenegro is a good one, they first applied in 2008 and will have to wait until 2020 at the earliest. So we 'might' move faster which means we 'might' be less than 12 years...

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I agree that there should be less hurdles therefore common sense would dictate that an application would go quicker however that's not certain by any means as the Commissions spokesperson has stated recently:

“Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

There is a couple of 'mights' in there and also I've seen no definition of what 'faster' means...as the EU is hardly famed for its fleet of foot.

Her example of Montenegro is a good one, they first applied in 2008 and will have to wait until 2020 at the earliest. So we 'might' move faster which means we 'might' be less than 12 years...

The article I linked to gives a decent stab at timelines.

[RyeSloan]

The article I linked to gives a decent stab at timelines.

Thanks...reading it quickly shows just what challenges such an application would face.

So maybe 2 years, maybe 4 but less than 12 might be the answer [emoji12]

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks...reading it quickly shows just what challenges such an application would face.

So maybe 2 years, maybe 4 but less than 12 might be the answer [emoji12]

Certainly the folks I heard speaking all thought the 18months timetable of Indyref 1 was too ambitious and seem to suggest the 4 years is more like the time needed. I can't see it being 12 unless 1 of the 27 is obstructive.

[northstandhibby]

I think the 'fast track' is because Scotland has already adopted, whether directly or as part of the UK, all EU regulations, directives and laws where other nation states have still to go through that process and therefore the process would be a lot quicker for IScotland. At least that's what I understood from the 2 political analysts I spoke to recently. So I don't think there is any 'might' about it.

As I said, listening to political academics and analysts is much more enlightening than the media.

http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

Interesting reading. Along the lines of what a number of posters on here have been broadly advocating. Scotland would be welcomed in quite painlessly and be a good fit among the other EU nations. Prior to brexit I would not have welcomed indy ref 2 so soon however I am ashamed to be part of a UK that seeks to split from our European neighbours and all of its core values of decency, tolerance, respect, free trading and human rights etc.

Unless there is a bigger game plan being kept from the public for example a necessity of having to wrest the UK out of the EU because of Russian aggression in order to move to a war footing if needs be (I am aware of NATO) or some other necessity, then I very much welcome a move towards freeing our nation enabling her to once again be more or less full members of the EU and its institutions.

(The reason I stated a necessary example is because of the extraordinary capitulation of individuals and parties whom would have normally fought tooth and nail to remain in the EU and I am unconvinced as yet that there is not more to all of this than meets the eye)

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

So where is the evidence that the German politicians statement was based on fact?

I'm certainly listening but I'm not hearing anything different...in fact did Jacqueline Minor not just say that Scotland would be treated no differently in that Article 49 would be the starting point?

So it's pretty apparent that 'fast track' simply means Scotland's application 'might' move faster than others but there has been no definitive confirmation beyond the fact that there would be no automatic membership just because we are or were part of a member state.


I think the 'fast track' is because Scotland has already adopted, whether directly or as part of the UK, all EU regulations, directives and laws where other nation states have still to go through that process and therefore the process would be a lot quicker for IScotland. At least that's what I understood from the 2 political analysts I spoke to recently. So I don't think there is any 'might' about it.

As I said, listening to political academics and analysts is much more enlightening than the media.

http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

Thanks for the Link, this was the report that I linked to in the post above from the Hootsman, although they didn't go into detail. Fast track indeed.:greengrin

It seems that the Mood music coming from Europe towards Scotland from many nations including the Germans, and Spain is very good indeed.

Leading experts say a Yes vote to leave the UK could result in Scotland having the fastest ever entry to the European Union. Tobias Lock of Edinburgh University and Kirsty Hughes of Friends of Europe, who have both extensively researched accession agreements, have published a landmark report which charts what they say is straightforward path for a new Scottish state to join the EU by 2023.

[pontius pilate]

Let's just say after indy ref 2 went the way of indy would we then hold another e.u referendum or would those that voted for brexit in Scotland be ignored?. There are thousands of snp supporters who don't want to be part of the e.u along with thousands of others.

[northstandhibby]

Let's just say after indy ref 2 went the way of indy would we then hold another e.u referendum or would those that voted for brexit in Scotland be ignored?. There are thousands of snp supporters who don't want to be part of the e.u along with thousands of others.

There are many many thousands of folk in the Uk who did not and still do not want to leave the EU and I'm of the opinion if another EU referendum was carried out in the UK remain would be the majority vote cast.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

A sign of things to come post Brexit. :dunno:

Cornwall Council leaders say they are ’very disappointed’ with yesterday’s Government announcement that the county will receive £18m in investment over the next three years.*
Julian German, the council’s portfolio holder for economy and culture, said: ’Having encouraged Cornwall to put in an ambitious bid for funding, I am shocked that Government investment in Cornwall is so small. *
’Numerous businesses across Cornwall spent time and money putting in compelling bids for investment in products, services and infrastructure, many of them will now be left disappointed.’
He said the funding settlement is significantly less than the previous Growth Deal allocation given to Cornwall and falls far short of the investment required if Government is going to ensure that Cornwall does not lose out when European funding for the economy ceases as a result of the UK leaving the EU.
EU funding currently provides £60m per year to develop local projects such as superfast broadband and business support.

[Colr]

A sign of things to come post Brexit. :dunno:

Cornwall Council leaders say they are ’very disappointed’ with yesterday’s Government announcement that the county will receive £18m in investment over the next three years.*
Julian German, the council’s portfolio holder for economy and culture, said: ’Having encouraged Cornwall to put in an ambitious bid for funding, I am shocked that Government investment in Cornwall is so small. *
’Numerous businesses across Cornwall spent time and money putting in compelling bids for investment in products, services and infrastructure, many of them will now be left disappointed.’
He said the funding settlement is significantly less than the previous Growth Deal allocation given to Cornwall and falls far short of the investment required if Government is going to ensure that Cornwall does not lose out when European funding for the economy ceases as a result of the UK leaving the EU.
EU funding currently provides £60m per year to develop local projects such as superfast broadband and business support.

Wonder if the penny has dropped in Wales yet!!

[ronaldo7]

Journey to YES #1

https://youtu.be/gaE3URYhvR4

[grunt]

Yes, I have seen these on YouTube.
Watched this one today, I've always had a lot of time for Tom Morton.


https://youtu.be/Tse395PM3B0

[Hibrandenburg]

Listening to sky news and it's obvious the Westminster fear campaign is already in full swing. Ffs, Hadrians wall will have to be rebuilt with razor wire, North Sea oil is a burden and Nicola Sturgeon is brilliant but a fascist. Let's get the **** out of this patronising lopsided union.

[RyeSloan]

A sign of things to come post Brexit. :dunno:

Cornwall Council leaders say they are ’very disappointed’ with yesterday’s Government announcement that the county will receive £18m in investment over the next three years.*
Julian German, the council’s portfolio holder for economy and culture, said: ’Having encouraged Cornwall to put in an ambitious bid for funding, I am shocked that Government investment in Cornwall is so small. *
’Numerous businesses across Cornwall spent time and money putting in compelling bids for investment in products, services and infrastructure, many of them will now be left disappointed.’
He said the funding settlement is significantly less than the previous Growth Deal allocation given to Cornwall and falls far short of the investment required if Government is going to ensure that Cornwall does not lose out when European funding for the economy ceases as a result of the UK leaving the EU.
EU funding currently provides £60m per year to develop local projects such as superfast broadband and business support.

I'm confused by this a touch as the previous growth deal was for £11m...also why would the government be supplanting EU money now when we have not left the EU yet.

Also Cornwall has received about £80m in growth deal awards since 2014. It's impossible to tell if that's good bad or indifferent without comparison...simply saying it's not enough doesn't in anyway give any idea of what the amount is compared to other areas.

It may well be a poor deal but maybe other areas had a bigger need, or the projects that requested the cash maybe didn't evidence the cost benefit well enough, who knows. This article certainly doesn't tell you.

[ronaldo7]

Journey from no to YES. #4 Mike Dailly, former Better together campaigner.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10412/journey-yes-former-better-together-campaigner-mike-dailly-backing-indy

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39122840

I see Gibraltar is a 'special case'


The government has a "moral responsibility" to protect the interests of Gibraltar during Brexit negotiations, a Lords committee says.

The EU committee said the single market and cross-border travel were vital to the territory's economy, and warned the UK government not to let Spain use trade talks to claim sovereignty

[northstandhibby]

More choppy waters ahead for the brexiteers. I know its the daily mail apologies in advance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4275724/Gina-Miller-threatens-legal-challenge-Brexit.html

I was reading today the EU has begun investigating future direction of travel and one of the options being a possible rowing back on some of its futuristic aims of further integration and instead replacing with simply overseeing the single market, just one of the options I believe but very interesting it is considering possible huge reforms if necessary in light of brexit. Immigration must be the main concern driving this as the last thing anybody wants is the ultra right wing parties gaining power over huge swathes of the EU which would be massively disastrous.

glory glory

[Bristolhibby]

Let's just say after indy ref 2 went the way of indy would we then hold another e.u referendum or would those that voted for brexit in Scotland be ignored?. There are thousands of snp supporters who don't want to be part of the e.u along with thousands of others.

We could if we wanted to. It would be our decision. You'd need to vote for a party that proposed it in their manifesto and hope they get a majority.

That's the beauty of Independence, the people of Scotland can decide what's best for Scotland.

J

[ronaldo7]

Great article by Lesley Riddoch on the way the UK GOV are handling Brexit, or not as the case may be.

https://t.co/krxEmpNJSU

[ronaldo7]

The wee ginger dug has captured the difference of being in a Union within the UK compared to a Union within the EU perfectly imo.

The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession. The EU is a union of sovereign states. The difference between the UK and the EU is the difference between being a bonded labourer and having an ownership stake in a company where you are a partner. The UK can alter Scotland’s terms and conditions as it sees fit. After it received its ruling from the Supreme Court that the Sewell Convention has no legal effect, it doesn’t require the consent of Scotland, or even need bother with consulting Scotland, in order to change the devolution settlement or anything else that affects the lives of people in Scotland. The Sewell Convention is a statement written into the Scotland Act that the UK goverment will not “normally” alter any devolved power without the consent of the Scottish parliament. The Supreme Court ruled that it means nothing. Scotland has no legal right to a say within the UK. We can always be outvoted by Tory MPs from outside Scotland, and that’s exactly why we’re now being taken out of the EU despite the fact that a large majority of Scottish voters voted to remain. That’s why every single amendment to the Scotland Act proposed by Scotland’s own MPs was voted down in the Commons. We’ve got English votes for English laws, and English votes for Scottish laws too.
Contrast that with the rights of an EU member. EU member states have veto powers. If the EU decides that it wants to do something that a member state is deeply opposed to, that state can veto the decision. And it’s important to remember that these decisions are only arrived at in the first place after all member states are fully consulted and involved in the negotiations. Scotland doesn’t even have a right to be consulted in the UK, never mind not having a right of veto.

Full blog here. https://t.co/kyh2CNyy9z

[Mibbes Aye]

The wee ginger dug has captured the difference of being in a Union within the UK compared to a Union within the EU perfectly imo.

The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession. The EU is a union of sovereign states. The difference between the UK and the EU is the difference between being a bonded labourer and having an ownership stake in a company where you are a partner. The UK can alter Scotland’s terms and conditions as it sees fit. After it received its ruling from the Supreme Court that the Sewell Convention has no legal effect, it doesn’t require the consent of Scotland, or even need bother with consulting Scotland, in order to change the devolution settlement or anything else that affects the lives of people in Scotland. The Sewell Convention is a statement written into the Scotland Act that the UK goverment will not “normally” alter any devolved power without the consent of the Scottish parliament. The Supreme Court ruled that it means nothing. Scotland has no legal right to a say within the UK. We can always be outvoted by Tory MPs from outside Scotland, and that’s exactly why we’re now being taken out of the EU despite the fact that a large majority of Scottish voters voted to remain. That’s why every single amendment to the Scotland Act proposed by Scotland’s own MPs was voted down in the Commons. We’ve got English votes for English laws, and English votes for Scottish laws too.
Contrast that with the rights of an EU member. EU member states have veto powers. If the EU decides that it wants to do something that a member state is deeply opposed to, that state can veto the decision. And it’s important to remember that these decisions are only arrived at in the first place after all member states are fully consulted and involved in the negotiations. Scotland doesn’t even have a right to be consulted in the UK, never mind not having a right of veto.

Full blog here. https://t.co/kyh2CNyy9z

Do you seriously read the stuff you post before you post it?

The first sentence is so subjective it makes it impossible to read the rest seriously.

Finding stuff online that you like isn't the same as making a serious point.

Cutting and pasting isn't really serious debate, it's just you copying stuff that makes you feel good.. I've called you out for this before.

However many times you post,you don't offer an analysis or an opinion, but you are good as a propaganda dog. They are getting their money's worth out of you.

Your turn, in three paragraphs (more if you want), give me a compelling argument for nationalism - not Scottishness. Tell me what makes me different, and you different - you don't know the first thing about me - and tell me why that matters in the slightest?

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you seriously read the stuff you post before you post it?

The first sentence is so subjective it makes it impossible to read the rest seriously.

Finding stuff online that you like isn't the same as making a serious point.

Cutting and pasting isn't really serious debate, it's just you copying stuff that makes you feel good.. I've called you out for this before.

However many times you post,you don't offer an analysis or an opinion, but you are good as a propanda dog. They are getting their money's worth out of you.

Your turn, in three paragraphs (more if you want), give me a compelling argument for nationalism - not Scottishness, I will spare you that, but just nationalism. Tell me what makes me different from someone who is not Scottish and tell me why that matters in the slightest?

There's different types of nationalism. Are you seriously suggesting that the Scottish drive for independence is based on ethnicity?

[ronaldo7]

Do you seriously read the stuff you post before you post it?

The first sentence is so subjective it makes it impossible to read the rest seriously.

Finding stuff online that you like isn't the same as making a serious point.

Cutting and pasting isn't really serious debate, it's just you copying stuff that makes you feel good.. I've called you out for this before.

However many times you post,you don't offer an analysis or an opinion, but you are good as a propaganda dog. They are getting their money's worth out of you.

Your turn, in three paragraphs (more if you want), give me a compelling argument for nationalism - not Scottishness. Tell me what makes me different, and you different - you don't know the first thing about me - and tell me why that matters in the slightest?

Do you really think I'd engage with someone after they started their post with the bit in bold.

I'll give you it in three letters instead. GTF

Consider yourself on my ignore list champ.

[Mibbes Aye]

There's different types of nationalism. Are you seriously suggesting that the Scottish drive for independence is based on ethnicity?

I don't understand nationalism. I would like to.

I would like to hear a rational argument for it. Are you game?

Interestingly, I notice the backlash against Claire Heuchan, a Scottish black woman, who published a piece in the Guardian last week. It essentially called out nationalism (note - not the referendum) for being essentially racist. It's hard to disagree, nationalism is essentially 'us and them'. She has been heavily criticised and on Twitter has been told that Scotland is ethnically white and she should mind her own business because she is an "African"

What's nationalism in your world?

[Mibbes Aye]

Do you really think I'd engage with someone after they started their post with the bit in bold.

I'll give you it in three letters instead. GTF

Consider yourself on my ignore list champ.

In fairness, you tend to post lots of links to SNP-favouring websites and that truly awful WingsOverScotland site that abused Hillsborough families. I doubt we will miss each other :greengrin

Nevertheless, it's meant to be a place for debate. You have a different ideology to me and I will miss arguing with you - always think it makes both of us better!

[Mibbes Aye]

Do you really think I'd engage with someone after they started their post with the bit in bold.

I'll give you it in three letters instead. GTF

Consider yourself on my ignore list champ.

And you never answered the serious points?

Go on, give me a compelling argument that justifies nationalism, in your own words.

What makes us different?

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't understand nationalism. I would like to.

I would like to hear a rational argument for it. Are you game?

Interestingly, I notice the backlash against Claire Heuchan, a Scottish black woman, who published a piece in the Guardian last week. It essentially called out nationalism (note - not the referendum) for being essentially racist. It's hard to disagree, nationalism is essentially 'us and them'. She has been heavily criticised and on Twitter has been told that Scotland is ethnically white and she should mind her own business because she is an "African"

What's nationalism in your world?

You fail to differentiate between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism. The snp have gone on the record many times saying ethnicity is and will be irrelevant in an independent Scotland. You obviously want to paint the independence movement as some kind of neo fascist grab for power based on your binary understanding of the word nationalism, fill your boots but it it's nonsense and I suspect you know it.

[Hibbyradge]

Do you really think I'd engage with someone after they started their post with the bit in bold.

I'll give you it in three letters instead. GTF

Consider yourself on my ignore list champ.

That's a disappointing response from you, Ronnie.

[Mibbes Aye]

You fail to differentiate between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism. The snp have gone on the record many times saying ethnicity is and will be irrelevant in an independent Scotland. You obviously want to paint the independence movement as some kind of neo fascist grab for power based on your binary understanding of the word nationalism, fill your boots but it it's nonsense and I suspect you know it.

What a scary statement. Really?

[Mibbes Aye]

You fail to differentiate between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism. The snp have gone on the record many times saying ethnicity is and will be irrelevant in an independent Scotland. You obviously want to paint the independence movement as some kind of neo fascist grab for power based on your binary understanding of the word nationalism, fill your boots but it it's nonsense and I suspect you know it.

Up to you to offer a rationale for nationalism in 2017.

Like a compelling argument as to why?

[Hibrandenburg]

Up to you to offer a rationale for nationalism in 2017.

Like a compelling argument as to why?

Eh Naw! The onus is on you to back up your claim that Scotland's drive for independence is sinister. You won't be able to though but you're welcome to try and because we're not living in the 1930's anymore you're welcome to copy and paste links to support your case :wink:

[Mr Grieves]

I don't understand nationalism. I would like to.

I would like to hear a rational argument for it. Are you game?

Interestingly, I notice the backlash against Claire Heuchan, a Scottish black woman, who published a piece in the Guardian last week. It essentially called out nationalism (note - not the referendum) for being essentially racist. It's hard to disagree, nationalism is essentially 'us and them'. She has been heavily criticised and on Twitter has been told that Scotland is ethnically white and she should mind her own business because she is an "African"

What's nationalism in your world?

There's nothing "us and them" or divisive about labelling a large proportion of the Scottish population as racists because you disagree with them politically, right enough.

[ronaldo7]

Do you seriously read the stuff you post before you post it?

The first sentence is so subjective it makes it impossible to read the rest seriously.

Finding stuff online that you like isn't the same as making a serious point.

Cutting and pasting isn't really serious debate, it's just you copying stuff that makes you feel good.. I've called you out for this before.

However many times you post,you don't offer an analysis or an opinion, but you are good as a propaganda dog. They are getting their money's worth out of you.

Your turn, in three paragraphs (more if you want), give me a compelling argument for nationalism - not Scottishness. Tell me what makes me different, and you different - you don't know the first thing about me - and tell me why that matters in the slightest?


In fairness, you tend to post lots of links to SNP-favouring websites and that truly awful WingsOverScotland site that abused Hillsborough families. I doubt we will miss each other :greengrin

Nevertheless, it's meant to be a place for debate. You have a different ideology to me and I will miss arguing with you - always think it makes both of us better!


And you never answered the serious points?

Go on, give me a compelling argument that justifies nationalism, in your own words.

What makes us different?


That's a disappointing response from you, Ronnie.

:agree: It had been a long week end, and I was rather irked by MA's post, and it's wording.

Firstly, I'd like to apologise to MA for putting him/her on my ignore list. You're free once more.

The reason was a simple one. We'd been through this before a few years ago. It wasn't nice, and I didn't want to put readers through it again, we'd gone back and forth for the whole evening. Best to sleep on it, and come at things with a clear head.

The link this time was a blogger which I kind of like, no rules against that is there? In the link the Wee Ginger dug gives a clue about what he's writing about in the first paragraph here.

"Sometimes, explaining the difference between the EU and the UK to those who demand to know why Scotland would swap London rule for Brussels rule"

Not once, is the word Nationalism mentioned in the blog.

I've given you my reasons for my stance on Scottish Independence, you didn't like it then, and won't like it now. It came in two words, that's all, just two little words.

There was no need to go into great detail on the democratic deficit, or the Sewel convention, the vow, the Lords, McCrone, Scotland bill, Smith commission, The 1978 referendum, and the 52% vote,or many of the other slaps in the puss that we've had to endure, my reason is just two little words.

Those words were and are SELF DETERMINATION.

As the rules of this board don't deter me to link to other articles, from wherever on tinternet, I'll continue to post what I want, when I want. I'm afraid, if you don't like it, just don't read it.:aok:

If the rules change, then I'll act accordingly.

I'll now let you get on with your discussion on Nationalism, ethnic or otherwise.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

In fairness, you tend to post lots of links to SNP-favouring websites and that truly awful WingsOverScotland site that abused Hillsborough families. I doubt we will miss each other :greengrin

Nevertheless, it's meant to be a place for debate. You have a different ideology to me and I will miss arguing with you - always think it makes both of us better!

Can't remember the last time I posted a link from WOS. I'll have to look one out for you.:aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

And you never answered the serious points?

Go on, give me a compelling argument that justifies nationalism, in your own words.

What makes us different?

Our addresses. :rolleyes:

[allmodcons]

I don't understand nationalism. I would like to.

I would like to hear a rational argument for it. Are you game?

Interestingly, I notice the backlash against Claire Heuchan, a Scottish black woman, who published a piece in the Guardian last week. It essentially called out nationalism (note - not the referendum) for being essentially racist. It's hard to disagree, nationalism is essentially 'us and them'. She has been heavily criticised and on Twitter has been told that Scotland is ethnically white and she should mind her own business because she is an "African"

What's nationalism in your world?

Every now and again you trot out this line. The inference always being that nationalism or self determination is somehow inherently bad.

What's your solution? How is it at all possible to have internationalism without separate nation states?

Are you seriously advocating no borders? If so, you're living in a dream world.

There is nothing sinister and nothing racist in me wanting Scotland to control it's own affairs. It's a political choice. You might not agree with it, but to cast it as something inherently bad is just laughable.

Perhaps, you'd prefer we hark back to the days of the British Empire? I'm sure India, amongst a whole host of other countries, would be more than happy to forgo their nation status. Or, on the other hand, are you seriously advocating some kind of International Socialist utopia?

Without nations there can be no internationalism. True, some nations are not the best internationalists but, for me, I see no shame in civic nationalism, where an inclusive iScotland sits comfortably alongside similar like minded states ranging from Norway to New Zealand.

[ronaldo7]

I don't understand nationalism. I would like to.

I would like to hear a rational argument for it. Are you game?

Interestingly, I notice the backlash against Claire Heuchan, a Scottish black woman, who published a piece in the Guardian last week. It essentially called out nationalism (note - not the referendum) for being essentially racist. It's hard to disagree, nationalism is essentially 'us and them'. She has been heavily criticised and on Twitter has been told that Scotland is ethnically white and she should mind her own business because she is an "African"

What's nationalism in your world?

Interesting to see that you've picked up on a story of Claire, the Better together poster girl. I'm sure you've seen the many issues of racism/misogyny/sectarianism against the Independence movement. Not seen you mention it though.:rolleyes:

This is the same girl who says you can't be racially abused if you're white. I think she's a bit mixed up. It's the Khan effect. https://t.co/OANFef3vCu

FWIW all hate which was directed at her in the aftermath of her article should have been forwarded to the police.

We've had Daisley, Torrance, and Heuchan, all "hounded" off twitter, and now all back on within a few days/weeks.

Kevin McKenna does it better than me, so here's something for to peruse on conflating Nationalism with Racism. https://t.co/FsuAWZ8ePC

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting to see that you've picked up on a story of Claire, the Better together poster girl. I'm sure you've seen the many issues of racism/misogyny/sectarianism against the Independence movement. Not seen you mention it though.:rolleyes:

FWIW all hate which was directed at her in the aftermath of her article should have been forwarded to the police.

We've had Daisley, Torrance, and Heuchan, all "hounded" off twitter, and now all back on within a few days/weeks.

Not directed at you, but wanting to add to the debate.

It takes 2 minutes to find out more on the article she wrote. And the response.

http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/03/the-claire-heuchan-episode-is-an-early-warning-to-independence-supporters/

FWIW If there is racism in Nationalism, it is because Nationalists don't want to be bound to the direction that Britain is being driven. Claire is the one that played the race card, wrongly IMHO as I do not see outright racism in Scotland, we truly are all Jock Tamson's Bairns.

[ronaldo7]

Not directed at you, but wanting to add to the debate.

It takes 2 minutes to find out more on the article she wrote. And the response.

http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/03/the-claire-heuchan-episode-is-an-early-warning-to-independence-supporters/

FWIW If there is racism in Nationalism, it is because Nationalists don't want to be bound to the direction that Britain is being driven. Claire is the one that played the race card, wrongly IMHO as I do not see outright racism in Scotland, we truly are all Jock Tamson's Bairns.

I saw that link earlier on, McKenna's piece in the Guardian is fine too.:aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

I saw that link earlier on, McKenna's piece in the Guardian is fine too.:aok:

Why didn't you post it :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Why didn't you post it :wink:

:faf:

It's on my post above #962. The links just keep on coming.:wink:

[Smartie]

What EXACTLY is Nationalism?

I don't really know, and I've voted SNP all my life.

Can you want Scotland to be an Independent nation without being a nationalist?

Is there anything "wrong" with happening to believe that certain decisions regarding people who live in Scotland should be made in Edinburgh as opposed to Westminster or Brussels (or vice versa)?

I don't have a problem with people who happen to disagree with me over where these decisions are made, I just happen to disagree with them.

[JeMeSouviens]

What EXACTLY is Nationalism?

I don't really know, and I've voted SNP all my life.

Can you want Scotland to be an Independent nation without being a nationalist?

Is there anything "wrong" with happening to believe that certain decisions regarding people who live in Scotland should be made in Edinburgh as opposed to Westminster or Brussels (or vice versa)?

I don't have a problem with people who happen to disagree with me over where these decisions are made, I just happen to disagree with them.

The word nationalist has 2 meanings: one is just someone who wants political independence for their country, the other is someone who believes their nation is superior to others.

This is fantastic news for opponents of Scottish independence as nobody who supports it can deny being a "nationalist" under the former definition and can therefore be instantly smeared as a racist, Nazi ******* under the latter. Happy days! :wink:

[ronaldo7]

The word nationalist has 2 meanings: one is just someone who wants political independence for their country, the other is someone who believes their nation is superior to others.

This is fantastic news for opponents of Scottish independence as nobody who supports it can deny being a "nationalist" under the former definition and can therefore be instantly smeared as a racist, Nazi ******* under the latter. Happy days! :wink:

Does this mean that those promoting Empire 2.0 are actually Nationalists then?:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Not directed at you, but wanting to add to the debate.

It takes 2 minutes to find out more on the article she wrote. And the response.

http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/03/the-claire-heuchan-episode-is-an-early-warning-to-independence-supporters/

FWIW If there is racism in Nationalism, it is because Nationalists don't want to be bound to the direction that Britain is being driven. Claire is the one that played the race card, wrongly IMHO as I do not see outright racism in Scotland, we truly are all Jock Tamson's Bairns.

Unless you're a catholic . . . :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Not directed at you, but wanting to add to the debate.

It takes 2 minutes to find out more on the article she wrote. And the response.

http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/03/the-claire-heuchan-episode-is-an-early-warning-to-independence-supporters/

FWIW If there is racism in Nationalism, it is because Nationalists don't want to be bound to the direction that Britain is being driven. Claire is the one that played the race card, wrongly IMHO as I do not see outright racism in Scotland, we truly are all Jock Tamson's Bairns.

Acutally it was Sadiq originally, although it's widely rumoured his speech was written for him by Anas Sarwar. Mind you, it's not just Scots Nationalism that "British and Proud" Claire thinks has a problem with racism:

https://mediadiversified.org/2015/12/16/veganism-has-a-serious-race-problem/

:faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you seriously read the stuff you post before you post it?

The first sentence is so subjective it makes it impossible to read the rest seriously.

Finding stuff online that you like isn't the same as making a serious point.

Cutting and pasting isn't really serious debate, it's just you copying stuff that makes you feel good.. I've called you out for this before.

However many times you post,you don't offer an analysis or an opinion, but you are good as a propaganda dog. They are getting their money's worth out of you.

Your turn, in three paragraphs (more if you want), give me a compelling argument for nationalism - not Scottishness. Tell me what makes me different, and you different - you don't know the first thing about me - and tell me why that matters in the slightest?

I like his links and delve into them now and then. If you really don't like people sharing links then just keep scrolling, it's not compulsory to read them.

[Dashing Bob S]

Thought this piece by a black Londoner was thoughtful on the differences between Scottish and British Nationalism. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan

[Hibrandenburg]

Thought this piece by a black Londoner was thoughtful on the differences between Scottish and British Nationalism. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan

Good read. I especially liked how he described the difference between Scottish Nationalism and UKIP. Of course there are racists/bigots in the campaign for independence but they only make up a small part of the movement and unlike UKIP they are not the driving force behind it.

[marinello59]

Thought this piece by a black Londoner was thoughtful on the differences between Scottish and British Nationalism. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan

This is the kind of writing that can win over those who voted No last time around. It's all the more powerful for refusing to adopt a confrontational style.

I don't think I have seen this put so well before.
"Reduced to its simplest terms, Ukip wants fewer people to be English while the SNP wants more people to be Scottish.”

[Hibrandenburg]

This is the kind of writing that can win over those who voted No last time around. It's all the more powerful for refusing to adopt a confrontational style.

I don't think I have seen this put so well before.
"Reduced to its simplest terms, Ukip wants fewer people to be English while the SNP wants more people to be Scottish.”

That's the line that struck a chord with me.

[Hibrandenburg]

Trust the BBC to look for and find the negative.

https://www.google.de/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36471626

Footnote: The reading of the above link is not compulsory

[steakbake]

Trust the BBC to look for and find the negative.

https://www.google.de/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36471626

Footnote: The reading of the above link is not compulsory

Balance, dear sir, it's just "balance"...

[RyeSloan]

Trust the BBC to look for and find the negative.

https://www.google.de/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36471626

Footnote: The reading of the above link is not compulsory

Are you suggesting they shouldn't look for and find negatives when they are there?

Anyway I don't see them looking for anything. Along with a positive headline the report clearly provides a lengthy section of quotation from the SG and then records the oppositions responses...and makes no editorial comment from what I can see.

Should they have just reported the SNP perspective and left it at they?

[ronaldo7]

Trust the BBC to look for and find the negative.

https://www.google.de/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36471626

Footnote: The reading of the above link is not compulsory

Any idea how the Tories, and Welsh Labour are getting on in their respective health service?

[JackLadd]

Time to abolish the ridiculous freeloading gravy train that passes for the House of Lords. We don't need any second chamber, especially not an unelected one that subverts the people's will.

[Hibrandenburg]

Any idea how the Tories, and Welsh Labour are getting on in their respective health service?

Strange that it didn't get a mention in that report. You'd have thought that the hypocrisy of the PM lambasting the SNP for failing the NHS during her visit last week would be worth mentioning. But I suppose it was left out for reasons of balanced reporting. :wink:

[steakbake]

Time to abolish the ridiculous freeloading gravy train that passes for the House of Lords. We don't need any second chamber, especially not an unelected one that subverts the people's will.

Love it. Bet the Mail comments are buzzing tonight :-)

[Just Alf]

Time to abolish the ridiculous freeloading gravy train that passes for the House of Lords. We don't need any second chamber, especially not an unelected one that subverts the people's will.

In this case I think they are indeed supporting the people's will.... ALL of the people.

on one hand a shade over half voted to leave, on the other a shade under half voted to stay..... a truly democratically representative outcome is for us to leave but with some agreements in place to prevent a so called "Hard Brexit"

I'd hope fair minded peeps on both sides of the fence could agree on that point at least?

[JackLadd]

In this case I think they are indeed supporting the people's will.... ALL of the people.

on one hand a shade over half voted to leave, on the other a shade under half voted to stay..... a truly democratically representative outcome is for us to leave but with some agreements in place to prevent a so called "Hard Brexit"

I'd hope fair minded peeps on both sides of the fence could agree on that point at least?


I'd argue it's unelected Eurocrats like Juncker who are creating the conditions for a hard Brexit. And I don't buy your premise. If Remain had won nobody would have given a flying fig about whatever percentage voted leave, especially not in the freeloading unelected second chamber. May should call an election and put abolition of the Lords and the whole peerage gravy train on page one.

[Smartie]

I'd argue it's unelected Eurocrats like Juncker who are creating the conditions for a hard Brexit. And I don't buy your premise. If Remain had won nobody would have given a flying fig about whatever percentage voted leave, especially not in the freeloading unelected second chamber. May should call an election and put abolition of the Lords and the whole peerage gravy train on page one.

If she really wanted to see the end of the House of Lords then there would be no better set of conditions to do it than under the ones you describe.

Harness the power of modern populism and set the wolves of Brexit loose on the Lords.



If she did then it could be the only thing that Theresa May ever does that I actually agree with.

[Hibbyradge]

Does anyone really think that a Tory government would abolish the House of Lords?

They might flood it with even more Tory peers, but they're conservative, bid and small "C".

[Colr]

If she really wanted to see the end of the House of Lords then there would be no better set of conditions to do it than under the ones you describe.

Harness the power of modern populism and set the wolves of Brexit loose on the Lords.



If she did then it could be the only thing that Theresa May ever does that I actually agree with.

What's Labours current adopted policy on the future of the House of Lords?

[northstandhibby]

I'd argue it's unelected Eurocrats like Juncker who are creating the conditions for a hard Brexit. And I don't buy your premise. If Remain had won nobody would have given a flying fig about whatever percentage voted leave, especially not in the freeloading unelected second chamber. May should call an election and put abolition of the Lords and the whole peerage gravy train on page one.

How did you reach that conclusion?

glory glory

[Smartie]

What's Labours current adopted policy on the future of the House of Lords?

I haven't got a clue.

Abstain?

[Hibbyradge]

What's Labours current adopted policy on the future of the House of Lords?

What has Labour Party policy got to do with it?

Labour's democratically decided policy is pro Europe and pro-Trident, but the relentlessly incompetant leader won't honour either.

He quickly put Chakrabarti into the Lord's for her help with the antisemitism report, so it's hard to guess what the "policy" on it is.

[Colr]

What has Labour Party policy got to do with it?



Indeed!!! Isn't that the tragedy of it!

[PeeJay]

How did you reach that conclusion?

glory glory

Possibly, the same way the UK electorate reached its decision in the referendum on the EU - by eliminating all form of reasoning from the deliberation process ...? :hmmm:

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd argue it's unelected Eurocrats like Juncker who are creating the conditions for a hard Brexit. And I don't buy your premise. If Remain had won nobody would have given a flying fig about whatever percentage voted leave, especially not in the freeloading unelected second chamber. May should call an election and put abolition of the Lords and the whole peerage gravy train on page one.

Get the foreigners out.
Leave the EU.
Judges are traitors.
Lords are Traitors.
Call a general election.
Abolish the house of Lords.


Where's this going and how does it end?

[steakbake]

If remain had won, based on how Brexit is being pursued, I'd fully expect we should have been sign up for the euro, schengen and a European army.

[northstandhibby]

Possibly, the same way the UK electorate reached its decision in the referendum on the EU - by eliminating all form of reasoning from the deliberation process ...? :hmmm:

Sounds about 100% correct. :wink:

Its all the EU's fault for sticking to their rules of seeking fair and proper negotiations in an orderly timely manner, how dare they not bend to what we want, they need us more than we need them you know! :greengrin

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Sounds about 100% correct. :wink:

Its all the EU's fault for sticking to their rules of seeking fair and proper negotiations in an orderly timely manner, how dare they not bend to what we want, they need us more than we need them you know! :greengrin

glory glory

Don't mention bend they will want straight bananas before we know it

[northstandhibby]

Don't mention bend they will want straight bananas before we know it

I knew there was a reason I should have voted leave instead of remain - discrimination against the nana!

:nanawave:

Now if only we could solve the blatant social class division and discrimination of the UK that keeps the vast majority of folk at the bottom while the toffs share the cream, maybe create a more equal society.

:greengrin

glory glory

[JeMeSouviens]

I knew there was a reason I should have voted leave instead of remain - discrimination against the nana!

:nanawave:

Now if only we could solve the blatant social class division and discrimination of the UK that keeps the vast majority of folk at the bottom while the toffs share the cream, maybe create a more equal society.

:greengrin

glory glory

bananas? cream? I think we should split ... :wink:

[JackLadd]

Regards this poll, what bit of a 9% deficit, no oil revenue, added to legacy debt interest payments don't the Aye2 heather brains get? Or are they all high on wee Mhairi's staple diet of hooch, chips and kola cubes? Maybe the plan is to reforest Scotland with money trees to avoid Greece minus the sun? The sell is going to be no economic argument but who cares as there wasn't one anyway. Yon IMF an frau Merkel wull bail us oot, ken. Just dinnae get sick or expect a pension. The whole thing makes the iceberg that sank the Titanic look like a snowball.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Oor Wullie wants a referendum on the EU deal, with the options being 'yes we accept the deal' or 'no we reject the deal and want to stay in the EU' but that's not a 2nd EU referendum apparently :faf::faf:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/when-one-plus-one-is-one/