Brexit - what will happen next

[ballengeich]

They public made the decision in the first place remember.

Recent opinion polls suggest that there has been a public change of mind. It's at least possible that leaving the EU would now be against the wishes of the majority. Surely a vote to test whether people want what's actually on offer can't be objected to.

[Callum_62]

They public made the decision in the first place remember.

They did- unfortunately the winning broke the law

Surely thats not Democratic.


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[Jack]

Based on lies and misinformation.


To quote Lord Sugar, loosely because I can't remember the exact wording, if the claims made by the leave campaign had been included in a company takeover prospectus or annual accounts they'd all have been jailed for a long time.

I think political campaigning is something that really needs to be looked at and addressed after this debacle. Assuming this debacle ever ends and Brexit doesn't consume parliamentary time ad infinitum.

[easty]

According to the Daily Mail and a YouGov poll - the UK would now rather have a No Deal than Remain in the EU.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6885661/How-Britain-wants-NO-DEAL-Brexit.html

[Callum_62]

According to the Daily Mail and a YouGov poll - the UK would now rather have a No Deal than Remain in the EU.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6885661/How-Britain-wants-NO-DEAL-Brexit.html

Howcome scotland only totals 83%?


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[Bristolhibby]

According to the Daily Mail and a YouGov poll - the UK would now rather have a No Deal than Remain in the EU.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6885661/How-Britain-wants-NO-DEAL-Brexit.html

When the options are no Deal, don’t know or remain.

Shove a deal in there, or a May/Corbyn Deal v Remain, and see things change.

I do find it astounding how popular the thought of no Deal is to swathes of England.

Would also like to see that not regionalised. What are the numbers in pure terms?

Oh and is “No Deal” not in the process of being removed from the table by Law?
J

[Bristolhibby]

Howcome scotland only totals 83%?


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Don’t know.

[easty]

Howcome scotland only totals 83%?


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Thats what I was thinking too. Nae idea.

[Callum_62]

isnt it remarkable that Scotland could vote 23% more one way and still not get what they want

It dumbfounds me that folk are OK with that

[Jack]

According to the Daily Mail and a YouGov poll - the UK would now rather have a No Deal than Remain in the EU.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6885661/How-Britain-wants-NO-DEAL-Brexit.html

It is the mail whose owner is a rabid brexiteer who lives in France, isn't it?

And the paper itself, when put through some algorithm to spot fake news, was flagged up among the worst websites in the world for misinformation?

Jings! I don't know wether to believe this or not!

[easty]

It is the mail whose owner is a rabid brexiteer who lives in France, isn't it?

And the paper itself, when put through some algorithm to spot fake news, was flagged up among the worst websites in the world for misinformation?

Jings! I don't know wether to believe this or not!

Are they making it up, or does it come from a YouGov poll? :dunno:

[jonty]

:tsk tsk:

My bad - i was scanning a document this morning and misread.
the full text was
"The Referendum Act 2015 was on whether or not the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union. It was only possible to vote to remain a member, or to stop being a member."

"An Act to make the provision for the holding of a referendum in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union"

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1113547733300842497

So based on that, what were the non-voters hoping for? I still think they were after the status quo - they certainly didn't feel strong enough to change the situation?

[lapsedhibee]

My bad - i was scanning a document this morning and misread.
the full text was
"The Referendum Act 2015 was on whether or not the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union. It was only possible to vote to remain a member, or to stop being a member."

"An Act to make the provision for the holding of a referendum in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union"

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1113547733300842497

So based on that, what were the non-voters hoping for? I still think they were after the status quo - they certainly didn't feel strong enough to change the situation?

The question put was not Do you wish to leave the EU? It was Do you wish to leave the EU, or remain in the EU? If it had been the former, you would have had a point. But it wasn't. Non-voters might just as easily have thought 'I don't really care to remain in the EU' as 'I don't really care to leave the EU'.

If it had been a tie, the Queen would have cast a spell for remaining, as she's a fan of Status Quo. Think that was how speaker Bercow explained his casting decision yesterday.

[lapsedhibee]

Blimey, if listening to The Inflatable Idiot, Spud-You-Hate, etc, dribbling on in the Commons seems like a desperate farce, don't dip in to the Lords https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3f8960d1-c522-4f7c-9b50-e054516b170a. Compared to some of their Tory lordships, Fatty Foulkes seems quick-witted, sharp and agile.

[Colr]

To quote Lord Sugar, loosely because I can't remember the exact wording, if the claims made by the leave campaign had been included in a company takeover prospectus or annual accounts they'd all have been jailed for a long time.

I think political campaigning is something that really needs to be looked at and addressed after this debacle. Assuming this debacle ever ends and Brexit doesn't consume parliamentary time ad infinitum.

Interesting article today about the various “independent” pro-leave adverts targeting Tory MPs being traced back to Lynton Crosby.

I thing there needs to be more transparency about policial advertising esp on the internet.

There should be a certain freedom of speech but when I’m being presented with an argument I should be able to see clearly who is promoting it so I can make an informed judgement about whether that argument is for my benefit or their’s.

[JeMeSouviens]

According to the Daily Mail and a YouGov poll - the UK would now rather have a No Deal than Remain in the EU.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6885661/How-Britain-wants-NO-DEAL-Brexit.html

The question was framed as “if the EU refuse an extension...” which makes a big difference. And the only other option was to revoke, ie. cancel Brexit without a ref2.

[JeMeSouviens]

The yougov poll did ask for “preferred Brexit outcome” with results:

Ref2 and Remain 37%
No deal 26%
Norway+ 12%
May’s deal 11%
DK 13%

[stoneyburn hibs]

The yougov poll did ask for “preferred Brexit outcome” with results:

Ref2 and Remain 37%
No deal 26%
Norway+ 12%
May’s deal 11%
DK 13%

The No deal % is a lot higher than I expected.

[Callum_62]

The No deal % is a lot higher than I expected.

an 11% lead is pretty hefty tho TBH

[SHODAN]

isnt it remarkable that Scotland could vote 23% more one way and still not get what they want

It dumbfounds me that folk are OK with that

Aye but you're forgetting that Scotland voted to remain in the UK which was actually a proxy vote for whatever the majority wants.

Imagine if England, Wales and NI narrowly voted to leave but a big Scotland remain vote kept us all in. Watch how quickly that attitude changes.

[SHODAN]

May requests a 30th June extension (the one the EU already rejected), Tusk offers a year-long one but with option to immediately leave when we get a deal.

[Callum_62]

May requests a 30th June extension (the one the EU already rejected), Tusk offers a year-long one but with option to immediately leave when we get a deal.

Suspect she knows that will be rejected and the flexible arrangement agreed - but doesnt want to be the one to request it

Didnt see say a while ago it was her deal, or a long extension- another lie then


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[SHODAN]

Suspect she knows that will be rejected and the flexible arrangement agreed - but doesnt want to be the one to request it

Didnt see say a while ago it was her deal, or a long extension- another lie then


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Sounds about right to me.

[grunt]

Maybe they've learned their lesson from 2016 ...Good point. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teletrader.com/amp/news/details/47412214

:rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teletrader.com/amp/news/details/47412214

:rolleyes:

How can we be? I thought his argument before was we had no power in the EU?

Unless.....he was lying? [emoji33]


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[Hibrandenburg]

How can we be? I thought his argument before was we had no power in the EU?

Unless.....he was lying? [emoji33]


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Good point.

[Hibbyradge]

France are calling our bluff.

That'll focus minds.

Or we're f***ed.

[BroxburnHibee]

Long extension request coming soon I'd imagine.

Labour should hold out for the referendum.

[Hibbyradge]

France maintains hardline stance on no-deal Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/05/france-maintains-hardline-stance-on-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[stoneyburn hibs]

Apparently cross party talks have broken down. What now?

[JeMeSouviens]

Apparently cross party talks have broken down. What now?

Word is no concessions from govt, they just explained their deal to Lab and expected them to move to back it???

If no cross party deal the next stage is supposed to be govt led indicative votes, so expect another stitch up that leads only to May’s deal.

[Bangkok Hibby]

37% turnout at Newport West by election yeterday...How pi55ed off are people?

[JeMeSouviens]

37% turnout at Newport West by election yeterday...How pi55ed off are people?

Not enough to actually go and vote by the looks of it. V low turnouts are par for the course in by elections.

[JeMeSouviens]

Resignation watch - still just 2 junior ministers. Smells fishy if May was genuine.

[lapsedhibee]

Word is no concessions from govt, they just explained their deal to Lab and expected them to move to back it???
Well done May, facing down the Marxists like that. True statesmanship.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Word is no concessions from govt, they just explained their deal to Lab and expected them to move to back it???

If no cross party deal the next stage is supposed to be govt led indicative votes, so expect another stitch up that leads only to May’s deal.

Brutal, surely Parliament won't let it go back to May's deal?

[jonty]

Word is no concessions from govt, they just explained their deal to Lab and expected them to move to back it???

If no cross party deal the next stage is supposed to be govt led indicative votes, so expect another stitch up that leads only to May’s deal.

They're nothing if not predictable.

they haven't shifted at all - as shown with the repeated (same) deal, the indicative votes (both rounds) and now this.

Its all about passing the blame now.

[SHODAN]

France is basically saying if nothing's changed by the 12th May then no extension and No Deal. Meanwhile May repeatedly refuses to compromise with anyone, on anything, about anything.

Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Word is no concessions from govt, they just explained their deal to Lab and expected them to move to back it???

If no cross party deal the next stage is supposed to be govt led indicative votes, so expect another stitch up that leads only to May’s deal.

She is a pathological liar. Lost count of how many times she's made speeches to the nation that seem entirely reasonable, and then her actions after it are the complete opposite. She had, and still has, no intention of compromise. What she means is compromise from others to get her deal through.

[PeeJay]

France is basically saying if nothing's changed by the 12th May then no extension and No Deal. Meanwhile May repeatedly refuses to compromise with anyone, on anything, about anything.

Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

Not just France, Austria not keen on the UK's inability to reach consensus on a way forward - Spain and Belgium apparently also seriously expecting a no-deal exit, as is the VP of the European Parliament ,Gebhardt, - if no clear strategy proposed by 12th April this really could be the end of the road?

The French never wanted us in for understandable reasons and now they want us out for understanable reasons ...

[Mixu62]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

Apologies if already posted elsewhere.

[Callum_62]

The EU27 can push for no extension all they want

The fact is a no deal BREXIT is entirely a UK decision - thanks to the Scottish MPs who pushed it as far as possible in court

I have a feeling they will crap there pants at revoking though


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[jonty]

The EU27 can push for no extension all they want

The fact is a no deal BREXIT is entirely a UK decision - thanks to the Scottish MPs who pushed it as far as possible in court

I have a feeling they will crap there pants at revoking though


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I thought the UK had already agreed a date with the EU?
Now the UK is going back to the EU and asking for more time. The EU would be quite within its rights to decline the request?

[Callum_62]

I thought the UK had already agreed a date with the EU?
Now the UK is going back to the EU and asking for more time. The EU would be quite within its rights to decline the request?

Yep they can...but if that leads to no deal thats our choice


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[jonty]

Yep they can...but if that leads to no deal thats our choice


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In which case its no deal or revoke. She's painted herself into a corner and although she'll try to, has no-one else to blame.
What's the latest deadline? Friday 12th?

[Callum_62]

In which case its no deal or revoke. She's painted herself into a corner and although she'll try to, has no-one else to blame.
What's the latest deadline? Friday 12th?

This she goes to europe in weds but we leave no deal in Friday


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[Jack]

In which case its no deal or revoke. She's painted herself into a corner and although she'll try to, has no-one else to blame.
What's the latest deadline? Friday 12th?

Were you watching Catchphrase on Saturday evening?

[jonty]

Were you watching Catchphrase on Saturday evening?

haven't watched tv on a Saturday night for years :greengrin
What did I miss?

[Fife-Hibee]

In which case its no deal or revoke. She's painted herself into a corner and although she'll try to, has no-one else to blame.
What's the latest deadline? Friday 12th?

A corner she intentionally put herself in to see a no deal outcome. Make no mistake. This was the plan all along.

[Jack]

haven't watched tv on a Saturday night for years :greengrin
What did I miss?

I haven't heard the phrase "painted [herself] into a corner" for years and then there it is twice in a few days! I thought perhaps there had been some subliminal stuff going on :-)

[Callum_62]

Apparenly new offer from Gov to labour has been submitted with promise to make the conditions “law” effectively locking them
In


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[JeMeSouviens]

Apparenly new offer from Gov to labour has been submitted with promise to make the conditions “law” effectively locking them
In


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Until a subsequent government rips up the "law" and writes a new one. Remember when it was the "law" that we were leaving the EU on March 29th?

[Callum_62]

Until a subsequent government rips up the "law" and writes a new one. Remember when it was the "law" that we were leaving the EU on March 29th?

Not sure how it works but im assuming labour are not daft enough to agree to something that is changeable on a whim


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[JeMeSouviens]

Not sure how it works but im assuming labour are not daft enough to agree to something that is changeable on a whim


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I very much doubt they'll do a deal anyway. Even though I think both leaderships would be happy with one, they're both **** scared of their party bases.

[Callum_62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190408/396d76cb5f7a9f48d60e2c50648afeec.jpg


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[grunt]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190408/396d76cb5f7a9f48d60e2c50648afeec.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"We hold all the cards".

[jonty]

Meanwhile, the government haven't budged an inch when discussing the way forward with labour.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47849389

To be fair, at least they've been consistent the past 3 yrs - and got nowhere.

So she's forcing us down the route to no-deal by the deadline.
The EU wont blink. I get the impression that labour are waiting on her calling a no-deal, then they'll call a vote of no confidence, demand a GE and a delay.
Either way - we're not out on Friday.

[Callum_62]

Meanwhile, the government haven't budged an inch when discussing the way forward with labour.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47849389

To be fair, at least they've been consistent the past 3 yrs - and got nowhere.

So she's forcing us down the route to no-deal by the deadline.
The EU wont blink. I get the impression that labour are waiting on her calling a no-deal, then they'll call a vote of no confidence, demand a GE and a delay.
Either way - we're not out on Friday.

More talks taking place this evening. Assume that means there was enough in the offer to keep them going


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[JeMeSouviens]

More talks taking place this evening. Assume that means there was enough in the offer to keep them going


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More likely neither wants to be blamed for them collapsing.

[Jack Hackett]

Meanwhile, the government haven't budged an inch when discussing the way forward with labour.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47849389

To be fair, at least they've been consistent the past 3 yrs - and got nowhere.

So she's forcing us down the route to no-deal by the deadline.
The EU wont blink. I get the impression that labour are waiting on her calling a no-deal, then they'll call a vote of no confidence, demand a GE and a delay.
Either way - we're not out on Friday.

Playing chicken with the future of the nation :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

More likely neither wants to be blamed for them collapsing.

Robert Peston now seems to think she will revoke if no deal is made. Would be political suicide for her but hilarious watching the brexiteers reaction.


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[James310]

Robert Peston now seems to think she will revoke if no deal is made. Would be political suicide for her but hilarious watching the brexiteers reaction.


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The house has told her not to leave without a deal, if that looks like happening then she is merely following the wishes of the HoC.

[jonty]

The house has told her not to leave without a deal, if that looks like happening then she is merely following the wishes of the HoC.

either way, she takes the credit for not ruining the nation.
She didn't have to wait until the last minute though......

[lapsedhibee]

A corner she intentionally put herself in to see a no deal outcome. Make no mistake. This was the plan all along.
It's at least as likely that the 'plan all along' was to engineer a situation where Remaining was the least bad option. Impossible to tell with May, who's as inscrutable as a Chinese stereotype.

[Jack Hackett]

Daily Mail Columnist Peter Oborne 'Changes his Mind'
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/apr/08/brexit-latest-news-live-theresa-may-union-most-likely-outcome-if-labour-and-government-can-compromise-says-minister-live-news)

"It’s nearly three years since I, along with 17. 4 million other Britons, voted for Brexit. Today I have to admit that the Brexit project has gone sour.
Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.
We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.
So I argue, as a Brexiteer, that we need to take a long deep breath. We need to swallow our pride, and think again. Maybe it means rethinking the Brexit decision altogether ...
If we are honest, we Brexiteers have to admit that the economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows ...
It has become clear to me, though I’ve been a strong Tory Brexiteer, that Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/apr/08/brexit-latest-news-live-theresa-may-union-most-likely-outcome-if-labour-and-government-can-compromise-says-minister-live-news

Full article here https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

[cabbageandribs1875]

said months ago there will be no Brexit....i haven't changed my mind


the dancing queen will have written her resignation speech at least 4 weeks ago, thinking she's fooled the brexiteers all along with her 'we have to make sure the 17.4m are listened to' p@sh, she will then ask the queen for a loan of the buckingham palace balcony so she can stand waving to all the cameras and receive accolades from all over the world as the woman that saved Britain, Europe, indeed, the whole wide world.



a precedent will then be set for taking stock of past referendums, thinking about the first result then waiting a few years to have another one.



:wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sinn Feinn at westminster the savvo for talks with the SNP, Plaid and Labour.



wonder what that was about then :confused:

[Mibbes Aye]

Sinn Feinn at westminster the savvo for talks with the SNP, Plaid and Labour.


wonder what that was about then :confused:

Sinn Féin have been positioning themselves to push for a referendum on a united Ireland, should we end up with a no-deal Brexit. I suspect it will be linked to that.

I can't see the circumstances in which they would forego their abstentionist policy to vote at Westminster, regardless of topic. It might be seen as a bit of a shibboleth now, even amongst those who have sympathy for their rationale for not sitting in the HoC. Nevertheless my sense is that they feel they were elected on a mandate not to sit at Westminster and will cleave to that regardless.

[lapsedhibee]

Sinn Féin have been positioning themselves to push for a referendum on a united Ireland, should we end up with a no-deal Brexit. I suspect it will be linked to that.


People (eg Oborne) beginning (at last) to voice the opinion that going through with Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. So far, Sinn Féin and SNP both emphasising they don't want Brexit even although it would enhance their respective cases.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sinn Féin have been positioning themselves to push for a referendum on a united Ireland, should we end up with a no-deal Brexit. I suspect it will be linked to that.

I can't see the circumstances in which they would forego their abstentionist policy to vote at Westminster, regardless of topic. It might be seen as a bit of a shibboleth now, even amongst those who have sympathy for their rationale for not sitting in the HoC. Nevertheless my sense is that they feel they were elected on a mandate not to sit at Westminster and will cleave to that regardless.

The IRA has split 3 times over abstentionism (to the Irish Dail, but the principle is the same). The last thing SF would risk is driving some of their former comrades into the ranks of the dissidents. Especially over an issue like brexit they will probably see as a win either way.

[Bristolhibby]

Sinn Féin have been positioning themselves to push for a referendum on a united Ireland, should we end up with a no-deal Brexit. I suspect it will be linked to that.

I can't see the circumstances in which they would forego their abstentionist policy to vote at Westminster, regardless of topic. It might be seen as a bit of a shibboleth now, even amongst those who have sympathy for their rationale for not sitting in the HoC. Nevertheless my sense is that they feel they were elected on a mandate not to sit at Westminster and will cleave to that regardless.

On that topic. I presume Sinn Fein MEPs take their seats and sit in the European Parliament?

J

[Jack Hackett]

I'm surprised at the lack of comment about Cooper's bill being passed last night. Surely a turning point for the whole sorry process?

[JeMeSouviens]

Michel Barnier: "A no-deal would never be a decision taken by the European Union."

[JeMeSouviens]

On that topic. I presume Sinn Fein MEPs take their seats and sit in the European Parliament?

J

They have 1 of NI's 3 seats and yes, it is taken up. They've been proposing that the 2 extra seats Ireland get post-brexit be used for the north.

[JeMeSouviens]

Disgraced cabinet minister Liam Fox has written to Tory backbenchers to tell them how bad a CU would be just as May is (supposedly) trying to negotiate a CU with Labour. :confused:

Meanwhile, the Germans not at all taken in by May's "consensus" fig leaf: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/09/conditions-for-short-brexit-delay-have-not-been-met-says-berlin

[Fife-Hibee]

People (eg Oborne) beginning (at last) to voice the opinion that going through with Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. So far, Sinn Féin and SNP both emphasising they don't want Brexit even although it would enhance their respective cases.

Why would they? Every single constituent in Scotland voted to remain. The SNP are simply respecting that outcome, even if the UK remaining in the EU would be seen as detrimental to their goal for an independent Scotland.

The SNP in Scotland are respecting the outcome in Scotland, while Labour and the Tories stick their fingers up at us.

[BroxburnHibee]

I'm surprised at the lack of comment about Cooper's bill being passed last night. Surely a turning point for the whole sorry process?

Think it's because technically its meaningless. May is out there doing exactly what the bill asks.

Joanna Cherry's amendment forcing revocation would've been a better option.

If May doesn't get an extension (I think the EU will force her into a longer one) then we could be looking at revocation by the end of the week with a general election to follow.

[lapsedhibee]

Why would they? Every single constituent in Scotland voted to remain. The SNP are simply respecting that outcome, even if the UK remaining in the EU would be seen as detrimental to their goal for an independent Scotland.

The SNP in Scotland are respecting the outcome in Scotland, while Labour and the Tories stick their fingers up at us.

As has been pointed out before, huge numbers of Scots voted to Leave.

[McSwanky]

As has been pointed out before, huge numbers of Scots voted to Leave.

I think his/her post was a typo - should have read 'constituency' rather than 'constituent.'

Huge numbers of Scots voted to leave, huger numbers voted to remain.

[lapsedhibee]

I think his/her post was a typo - should have read 'constituency' rather than 'constituent.'

Huge numbers of Scots voted to leave, huger numbers voted to remain.

I know it was a typo, but "every constituency voted to remain" isn't any more helpful than "the will of the people was to remain" and "the will of the people of Scotland to remain" isn't any more helpful than "the will of the people of Britain to leave". Just not helpful to try to talk away the huge minorities in either case.

[JeMeSouviens]

Macron wants UK out by end of 2019 at the latest. The French are also proposing 3-monthly "good faith" checks*. If the UK not behaving then gets kicked out early.


* Yes, Jacob, ils vous entendent :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

I know it was a typo, but "every constituency voted to remain" isn't any more helpful than "the will of the people was to remain" and "the will of the people of Scotland to remain" isn't any more helpful than "the will of the people of Britain to leave". Just not helpful to try to talk away the huge minorities in either case.

62% to 38% with a 67.8% turnout is easier to explain over 51.9/48.1 though.

[lapsedhibee]

62% to 38% with a 67.8% turnout is easier to explain over 51.9/48.1 though.
:agree:

62% of 67.8% is still less than half though.

Numbers are bandied about in the current bourach as if they're arguments in themselves, and they're not. Particularly ludicrous with Brexiters and their "17.4 million" mantra (or in Kate Hoey's case today, "17.5 million"), but not only Brexiters.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm going to miss that guy shouting "Stop Brexit" outside parliament.
I don't think he's missed a shift during c4's coverage 😁

[SHODAN]

EU says long extension or nothing.

[Callum_62]

EU says long extension or nothing.

Dont see why that would be an issue. Especially as it appears to be flexible

Whats the point in going back every 3 weeks to ask for more time.

Long extension with opt out option


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[Moulin Yarns]

Dont see why that would be an issue. Especially as it appears to be flexible

Whats the point in going back every 3 weeks to ask for more time.

Long extension with opt out option


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Theresa May saw nothing wrong with taking her 'deal' back to parliament every week :wink:


Now, bear with me, I've been thinking about the referendum, and the parliamentary votes.

In the referendum, a straight majority was allowed to win, that, as we all know was a marginal result 51.89% leave, 48.11% remain. BUT, of the total electorate it is 35.90% Leave, 33.28% Remain, 30.82% did not vote/abstain.

However, in Parliament it requires an outright majority of 50%+1 or >326 votes for anything to pass. Had parliament used a straight majority then the indicative votes could be more influential and have overturned the 'deal' once and for all.

I suppose what I'm saying is why have different 'winning' votes? If the referendum had required the same 50%+1 vote to pass the Number required to win would have been 24,250,001 and not the 17,410,742 that voted leave, almost 7,000,000 less than required.

Politics? what a mess.

[lapsedhibee]

However, in Parliament it requires an outright majority of 50%+1 or >326 votes for anything to pass. Had parliament used a straight majority then the indicative votes could be more influential and have overturned the 'deal' once and for all.


Think the Commons quorum is 40, so you only need 21 voting for something for it to pass. And if 39 of the 40 abstain, you only need 1.

[JeMeSouviens]

Think the Commons quorum is 40, so you only need 21 voting for something for it to pass. And if 39 of the 40 abstain, you only need 1.

:agree: That's correct. They only have to be present when the Speaker calls division.

[Moulin Yarns]

Think the Commons quorum is 40, so you only need 21 voting for something for it to pass. And if 39 of the 40 abstain, you only need 1.

You've lost me. At the first vote on the WA 202 voted for and 432 voted against it. The 202 is more than 21 and it didn't pass.

[lapsedhibee]

You've lost me. At the first vote on the WA 202 voted for and 432 voted against it. The 202 is more than 21 and it didn't pass.

The 50% + 1 you are quoting means that 50% +1 of those voting must vote for something for it to pass, not that 50% +1 of sitting MPs must vote for it.

Theoretically 1/650 of MPs could be enough to vote something through.

[Moulin Yarns]

The 50% + 1 you are quoting means that 50% +1 of those voting must vote for something for it to pass, not that 50% +1 of sitting MPs must vote for it.

Theoretically 1/650 of MPs could be enough to vote something through.

OK, my next stupid question is why a non vote /abstention by the public matters less than a parliamentary abstention?

None of the indicative votes received the majority 50%+1 because of abstentions, if they were discounted as they were for the referendum then there were straight majorities.

I suppose what I'm getting at is the difference between the public vote being accepted on 35.9% of the electorate and the 30.82% that didn't vote is basically forgotten. Had the same rules applied for parliament and the public vote we would not be in this situation.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, my next stupid question is why a non vote /abstention by the public matters less than a parliamentary abstention?

None of the indicative votes received the majority 50%+1 because of abstentions, if they were discounted as they were for the referendum then there were straight majorities.

I suppose what I'm getting at is the difference between the public vote being accepted on 35.9% of the electorate and the 30.82% that didn't vote is basically forgotten. Had the same rules applied for parliament and the public vote we would not be in this situation.

I think you're confusing yourself here - the rules are basically the same. A majority of those who vote is required in either case even if they are only a plurality of the electorate. A parliamentary vote where 35.9% of the 650 MPs voted Aye, 33.3% voted No and 30.8% abstained would be won by the Ayes.

The Cooper/Letwin bill that got through the other week was by 313-312. 313/650 = 48%.

[Moulin Yarns]

Anybody seen this?

https://twitter.com/ImogenFoulkes/status/1115932466953498625?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

I think you're confusing yourself here - the rules are basically the same. A majority of those who vote is required in either case even if they are only a plurality of the electorate. A parliamentary vote where 35.9% of the 650 MPs voted Aye, 33.3% voted No and 30.8% abstained would be won by the Ayes.

The Cooper/Letwin bill that got through the other week was by 313-312. 313/650 = 48%.

Why were the indicative votes different? I know that they weren't binding but none 'won'

[JeMeSouviens]

Why were the indicative votes different? I know that they weren't binding but none 'won'

They weren't different. In all cases there were more votes against than for.

[JeMeSouviens]

BBC's Katya Adler tweets:

"Much also riding on PM’s performance. She’ll make a presentation to EU leaders at start of summit. They then quiz her (on cross-party talks with Corbyn etc). Only when she leaves the room - and influenced by the impression she has made- EU leaders will then debate extension"




OH GOD, NO!

[BroxburnHibee]

BBC's Katya Adler tweets:

"Much also riding on PM’s performance. She’ll make a presentation to EU leaders at start of summit. They then quiz her (on cross-party talks with Corbyn etc). Only when she leaves the room - and influenced by the impression she has made- EU leaders will then debate extension"




OH GOD, NO!

I wouldn't worry. If she makes an a**e of herself then revoking A50 will be inevitable.

[SHODAN]

BBC's Katya Adler tweets:

"Much also riding on PM’s performance. She’ll make a presentation to EU leaders at start of summit. They then quiz her (on cross-party talks with Corbyn etc). Only when she leaves the room - and influenced by the impression she has made- EU leaders will then debate extension"




OH GOD, NO!

May's presentation: "My deal is really good and all my friends think it's good"
EU: Ok but it has been rejected three times, how are you going to get it through Parliament before June 30?
May: My deal is very good
EU: What about Corbyn? Did you make any concessions? What were the outcomes of your meetings?
May: I told Jeremy that I have a really good deal and he should vote for it because it's great and my friend Philip who runs the economy told me he should so there.
EU: We'll offer you an extension until April 2020.
May: k

[hibsbollah]

Breaking news, it's a Halloween extension.
Rush on to beat Ryanair and easyJet putting their prices back up again.

[Hibbyradge]

Just over 6 and a bit months more until the next cliff edge.

Then what? A winter of discontent?

[hibsbollah]

Just over 6 and a bit months more until the next cliff edge.

Then what? A winter of discontent?

Perfidious Albion on speed.

(I don't actually know what this means, but that Mark Francois bloke seems to be quite pleased with himself so it must mean something).

[heretoday]

Just over 6 and a bit months more until the next cliff edge.

Then what? A winter of discontent?

No, no. Our eminent representatives are bound to come to their senses and strike a sensible deal way before then.

[BroxburnHibee]

So I'm assuming that means EU elections now?

May will be long gone by October. In fact it could be very soon.

[James310]

Is this enough time to hold another referendum if that is what the outcome of the talks is? Referendum in September based on the negotiated deal between the Tories and Labour versus Remain?

[Bangkok Hibby]

Perfidious Albion on speed.

(I don't actually know what this means, but that Mark Francois bloke seems to be quite pleased with himself so it must mean something).


The man is clearly a loony. Quite a few of his nonsensical quotes online

[Hibbyradge]

So I'm assuming that means EU elections now?

May will be long gone by October. In fact it could be very soon.

I think she'll just cling on in order to try to get the/a deal through.

[JeMeSouviens]

So I'm assuming that means EU elections now?

May will be long gone by October. In fact it could be very soon.

Yes, EU elections are all but certain now I think. I wouldn't be so sure May will be gone though. Any one of the general election failure, disintegration of her chequers plan, humiliation of MVs 1, 2 and 2.5, 100+ of her own MPs voting against her in Tory confidence vote and having to delay Brexit twice would have done for any previous PM. They will have to prise her cold, dead hands from the wheel.

[SHODAN]

Six months is enough time for a referendum. It's the only thing that would get a deal through, has to be the outcome unless May makes some serious compromises.

If Labour contrive with the Tories to deprive us of freedom of movement then I don't care how left-wing they claim they are, they're never getting my vote again.

[Mantis Toboggan]

The man is clearly a loony. Quite a few of his nonsensical quotes online

It's quite disturbing that someone as moronic as him has some sort of profile in the ongoing Brexit omnishambles. Not that many of his colleagues are any better.

[JeMeSouviens]

Six months is enough time for a referendum. It's the only thing that would get a deal through, has to be the outcome unless May makes some serious compromises.

If Labour contrive with the Tories to deprive us of freedom of movement then I don't care how left-wing they claim they are, they're never getting my vote again.

We're not at the point where parliament will vote for ref2, but it's getting closer. Last night the EU effectively granted an extension with no plan, just to delay no deal. I am sure, notwithstanding the dire warnings, that they would accept another extension although next time they probably will require a plan: ref2, a GE or a cross-party compromise with sustainable majority in the Commons. There are a hell of a lot of (very slow) moving parts to decide which one of those we get.

There is now zero incentive for anybody to back May's deal. Similarly, the pressure on Labour to sign up to anything is much reduced. They can sit back for a bit and see how the Tory psychodrama plays out.

[JeMeSouviens]

The absolute best thing is that the hard Brexiter narrative (which any Tory leadership candidate is automatically enslaved to) has moved inexorably to the position that May's deal (actually a potentially long term quite hard Brexit) is equivalent to Remain. They have backed themselves so far into this corner they can never come out. The result is that the only way Brexit happens is:

1. it's very soft and done mostly with Labour votes which cause Tory meltdown
2. it's done via another ref
3. it's done with a new Tory leader and a GE on a hard Brexit manifesto

With 2&3 it can definitely be stopped.

[lapsedhibee]

The absolute best thing is that the hard Brexiter narrative (which any Tory leadership candidate is automatically enslaved to) has moved inexorably to the position that May's deal (actually a potentially long term quite hard Brexit) is equivalent to Remain. They have backed themselves so far into this corner they can never come out. The result is that the only way Brexit happens is:

1. it's very soft and done mostly with Labour votes which cause Tory meltdown
2. it's done via another ref
3. it's done with a new Tory leader and a GE on a hard Brexit manifesto

With 2&3 it can definitely be stopped.

Why are you so confident that 3 can be stopped? Plenty support in the country for no-deal exit. Farage and redtops whipping things up, and FPP elections, make 3 quite possible imo.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why are you so confident that 3 can be stopped? Plenty support in the country for no-deal exit. Farage and redtops whipping things up, and FPP elections, make 3 quite possible imo.

I didn't say it will be stopped, but it definitely could be.

No deal as first choice outcome has a core support of about 25-30%. I think the Farage/Tommy Robinson thing will harden that core but probably alienate some of the softer Leavers. The EU election campaign and result will provide some useful pointers to all sides.

[JeMeSouviens]

Polls seem to be starting to show the big 2 taking a hit from Brexit, but the Tories hit is bigger eg. this new one from BMG:

LAB: 31% (-3)
CON: 29% (-10)
CHUK: 8% (+8)
LDEM: 8% (-4)
UKIP: 7% (+2)
BREX: 6% (+6)
GRN: 4% (-)

[One Day Soon]

Polls seem to be starting to show the big 2 taking a hit from Brexit, but the Tories hit is bigger eg. this new one from BMG:

LAB: 31% (-3)
CON: 29% (-10)
CHUK: 8% (+8)
LDEM: 8% (-4)
UKIP: 7% (+2)
BREX: 6% (+6)
GRN: 4% (-)


My acknowledged complete disdain for Corbyn and crew aside, I find it beyond belief that the party formerly known as Labour can only manage a 2 point lead amid this utter 5hitshow.

[Moulin Yarns]

Polls seem to be starting to show the big 2 taking a hit from Brexit, but the Tories hit is bigger eg. this new one from BMG:

LAB: 31% (-3)
CON: 29% (-10)
CHUK: 8% (+8)
LDEM: 8% (-4)
UKIP: 7% (+2)
BREX: 6% (+6)
GRN: 4% (-)

So the 3 main establishment UK parties all losing votes to the new kids on the block, UKIP, Brexit and ChangeUK by equal measure. Interesting times.

[JeMeSouviens]

My acknowledged complete disdain for Corbyn and crew aside, I find it beyond belief that the party formerly known as Labour can only manage a 2 point lead amid this utter 5hitshow.

It's Hearts in adminstration but Hibs under Terry Butcher, basically. :boo hoo:

[SHODAN]

It's Hearts in adminstration but Hibs under Terry Butcher, basically. :boo hoo:

What an analogy!

[lapsedhibee]

It's Hearts in adminstration but Hibs under Terry Butcher, basically. :boo hoo:

Nice :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/latest-eu-voting-intention-figures-show-remain-continuing-to-record-leads-over-leave/

55% remain in latest poll

[Callum_62]

https://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/latest-eu-voting-intention-figures-show-remain-continuing-to-record-leads-over-leave/

55% remain in latest poll

Will of the people


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[JeMeSouviens]

Current bill for No Deal prep - £4 billion.

Un-be-******-lievable.

[Bangkok Hibby]

https://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/latest-eu-voting-intention-figures-show-remain-continuing-to-record-leads-over-leave/

55% remain in latest poll

I'm surprised it's not a much larger majority for remain, given the body of opinion telling us how bad a no deal Brexit would be.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm surprised it's not a much larger majority for remain, given the body of opinion telling us how bad a no deal Brexit would be.

Hopefully it'll be a larger majority when it matters. 🤞

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm surprised it's not a much larger majority for remain, given the body of opinion telling us how bad a no deal Brexit would be.


People are so entrenched it is difficult to get folks to change.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm surprised it's not a much larger majority for remain, given the body of opinion telling us how bad a no deal Brexit would be.

If you ask people Remain vs Leave you get a closer result than Remain vs any particular Leave outcome. An actual ref2 will probably be Remain vs Deal or possibly Remain vs No Deal.

[jonty]

It's Hearts in adminstration but Hibs under Terry Butcher, basically. :boo hoo:

:top marks

[jonty]

People are so entrenched it is difficult to get folks to change.

Lets hope that the 16 million who didn't bother voting, get into the polling stations (if we get to that)

[GlesgaeHibby]

Current bill for No Deal prep - £4 billion.

Un-be-******-lievable.

Some of which was councilling for the civil servants dealing with prep for worst case scenario. We need to end this madness.

[JeMeSouviens]

LAB: 35% (+4)
CON: 31% (-9)
LDEM: 11% (+3)
UKIP: 7% (+1)
GRN: 4% (-2)

via @****arPublic

More evidence it’s going south for the Tories.

[JeMeSouviens]

Senseless waste of money No Deal planning called off. Predictable idiots predictably outraged. :rolleyes:


Meanwhile - a Euro election poll for the UK suggests the Tories are in for a much bigger hammering than Labour:

LAB 38%
CON 23%
BREX 10%
LDEM 8%
UKIP 8%
ChUK 4%
SNP 4%
GREEN 4%

The poll is by Hansbury Strategy who I must admit I've never heard of but they have joined the British Polling Council so it should be using reasonable methodology.

[Moulin Yarns]

Senseless waste of money No Deal planning called off. Predictable idiots predictably outraged. :rolleyes:


Meanwhile - a Euro election poll for the UK suggests the Tories are in for a much bigger hammering than Labour:

LAB 38%
CON 23%
BREX 10%
LDEM 8%
UKIP 8%
ChUK 4%
SNP 4%
GREEN 4%

The poll is by Hansbury Strategy who I must admit I've never heard of but they have joined the British Polling Council so it should be using reasonable methodology.

Only 20% for pro EU parties is worrying.

[JeMeSouviens]

Only 20% for pro EU parties is worrying.

I think Labour will get there in the end, especially with polls like this.

[Smartie]

I think Labour will get there in the end, especially with polls like this.

Unless they get a new leader soon, I think they'll settle for pissing about seeing if they can just about score less own goals on the issue than the Tories.

[JeMeSouviens]

Unless they get a new leader soon, I think they'll settle for pissing about seeing if they can just about score less own goals on the issue than the Tories.

It's a journey of small steps but they are inexorably going the right way.

Anyway, they're the big/only hope for a Remain vehicle in rUK. I mean, people are not going to go and vote for THE ****ING LIB DEMS just because of Brexit. :wink:

[Jack Hackett]

Only 20% for pro EU parties is worrying.

What's really worrying about that is that a huge amount of people still have the 2 party mindset and will vote for them, even when both parties advocate Brexit

[JeMeSouviens]

What's really worrying about that is that a huge amount of people still have the 2 party mindset and will vote for them, even when both parties advocate Brexit

Obviously it's different here but in England & Wales:

- Brexit will only be stopped in the HoC
- the HoC is FPTP
- FPTP means only Lab or Tory can win big in E&W
- of the 2, Lab are the only hope for Remain
- the last thing Remainers should do is validate the "Lab will lose votes by not supporting Brexit" theory

Luckily we have an explicitly pro-Remain party that can win big in fptp here in Scotland. :wink:

Luckily (2) our days of having to be concerned by the crapness of fptp are surely numbered. :greengrin

[grunt]

I'm surprised it's not a much larger majority for remain, given the body of opinion telling us how bad a no deal Brexit would be.
It's quite incredible isn't it?

[Bangkok Hibby]

It's quite incredible isn't it?

Yes but huge swathes of Sun reading, Jeremy Kyle watching, white, working class English believe it'll be OK

[JeMeSouviens]

It's quite incredible isn't it?

They either don't believe the no deal assessments are true or don't care. I agree, it's incredible.

[danhibees1875]

They either don't believe the no deal assessments are true or don't care. I agree, it's incredible.

I know people who would genuinely prefer a no deal outcome. Mind boggling.

We've had a peek behind the curtains, call a second referendum and end the madness. :agree:

[ronaldo7]

They either don't believe the no deal assessments are true or don't care. I agree, it's incredible.

They seem happy to stay in the ****.

They'll get there eventually.

[Just Alf]

The whole thing is getting weird...

Surely we must now be at the stage of

"lets hold a final referendum, 1) we leave on the best deal we can get (May's) or 2) we remain."

Just do it and whatever the outcome it'll be the true "will of the people" now that they've seen all the for/against arguments etc... Even those that decide to not vote, this time around it'll be a conscious choice knowing it'll impact the final vote.

Once done. Whatever the result, no one on either side can surely keep on arguing about it?





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[Hibbyradge]

It's a journey of small steps but they are inexorably going the right way.

Anyway, they're the big/only hope for a Remain vehicle in rUK. I mean, people are not going to go and vote for THE ****ING LIB DEMS just because of Brexit. :wink:

I am.

[JeMeSouviens]

I am.

Don’t do it. I did once, they went into coalition with the ******G TORIES!

[marinello59]

Don’t do it. I did once, they went into coalition with the ******G TORIES!

I voted SNP at the last SG elections. I got Mark Macdonald. Don’t do it. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I am.

Im not going to criticise anyone for their vote, you have to follow your heart on it. (Although refusing to vote for Labour because of Corbyns leadership, and plumping for Vince Cables Lib Dems as a result is a bit controversial. I mean at least Jeremy is actually ALIVE.)

[ronaldo7]

Im not going to criticise anyone for their vote, you have to follow your heart on it. (Although refusing to vote for Labour because of Corbyns leadership, and plumping for Vince Cables Lib Dems as a result is a bit controversial. I mean at least Jeremy is actually ALIVE.)

Alive you say?😆

[hibsbollah]

Alive you say?��

Well, in comparison to Sir Vince anyway:greengrin
Bollah Jr heard his name on the radio the other day and said 'Is that guy called Cervix Cable?' I resisted the obvious joke, Vince is an old twat but he's not a ****.

The Lib Dems are the only UK wide party with an unequivocally pro Remain consensus. You'd think Remainers would have shifted in that direction, at least those for whom Europe is their primary concern. If the election was tomorrow? They'd get 8% of the vote. 8. Despite having policies that are relatively popular and to the left of Ed Milibands labour, certainly in terms of tax and spend. Now that's a party in chaos.
https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

[JeMeSouviens]

Well, in comparison to Sir Vince anyway:greengrin
Bollah Jr heard his name on the radio the other day and said 'Is that guy called Cervix Cable?' I resisted the obvious joke, Vince is an old twat but he's not a ****.

Sounds like an uncomfortable conversation ...

[JeMeSouviens]

Telegraph describes Tory-Lab talks as “acrimonious”. Tories briefing that Starmer is obstructive. Lab briefing that Tories aren’t moving.

Blame game getting started.

[Tornadoes70]

Telegraph describes Tory-Lab talks as “acrimonious”. Tories briefing that Starmer is obstructive. Lab briefing that Tories aren’t moving.

Blame game getting started.

Yeah and all the while the snp and their fellow independeteers have been even more obstructive at petty politicking threatening yet another extremely divisive attempt to destabilize Scotland by asking for yet 'another' referendum that was won decisively just four years ago in 2014 by the No to separatism movement.

:confused:

[Jack Hackett]

Yeah and all the while the snp and their fellow independeteers have been even more obstructive at petty politicking threatening yet another extremely divisive attempt to destabilize Scotland by asking for yet 'another' referendum that was won decisively just four years ago in 2014 by the No to separatism movement.

:confused:

So nothings changed for you since 2014 then? All the promises made by the unionists have been delivered? You know... the ones that helped persuade the voters that they actually mattered to Westminster. It doesn't cross your mind that a fair few folk... especially the ones that believed it was the only way to stay in the EU... might have changed their minds? They won the referendum and then dumped Scotland like it was covered in s****.

Never mind. If your worst nightmare comes to pass, I'm sure the English will welcome you with open arms as Scotland descends into anarchy. It's actually quite nice down here... not a yam in sight :greengrin

[Callum_62]

Yeah and all the while the snp and their fellow independeteers have been even more obstructive at petty politicking threatening yet another extremely divisive attempt to destabilize Scotland by asking for yet 'another' referendum that was won decisively just four years ago in 2014 by the No to separatism movement.

:confused:

Im confused too - although not at the SNP


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[Tornadoes70]

Im confused too - although not at the SNP


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I'm not confused at the snp and their fellow independeteers either. They've been entirely predictable seeking to cause disharmony across the UK.

I take it you were born in the UK and are seeking to separate from it by either supporting the snp and or its separatist brethren?

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm not confused at the snp and their fellow independeteers either. They've been entirely predictable seeking to cause disharmony across the UK.

I take it you were born in the UK and are seeking to separate from it by either supporting the snp and or its separatist brethren?

Well at least they're predictable in their seeking to cause disharmony across the UK.... the UK Government on the other hand are completely unpredictable in what they're going to do next to damage your precious union. Exciting though. :greengrin

[Callum_62]

I'm not confused at the snp and their fellow independeteers either. They've been entirely predictable seeking to cause disharmony across the UK.

I take it you were born in the UK and are seeking to separate from it by either supporting the snp and or its separatist brethren?

Disharmony across the uk how?

They have just as much a mandate as the tories did to call the EU ref

Unfortunately our own Government doesnt have the right to make they decisions and has to wait for the UK gov to its permission. [emoji848]


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[Tornadoes70]

Well at least they're predictable in their seeking to cause disharmony across the UK.... the UK Government on the other hand are completely unpredictable in what they're going to do next to damage your precious union. Exciting though. :greengrin

Its not about damaging my 'precious union' for me. Its about protecting jobs, benefits, the unemployed, the disabled, manufacturing, housing, NHS, mortgages, pensions, stability, border with our UK partners, currency, rosyth dockyard, nato, national security etc etc etc in absence of petty nationalism. I care about Scotland and its inhabitants and for me its not about 'damaging' the UK union.

Get it?

Mon Labour!!!

[The Modfather]

Its not about damaging my 'precious union' for me. Its about protecting jobs, benefits, the unemployed, the disabled, manufacturing, housing, NHS, mortgages, pensions, stability, border with our UK partners, currency, rosyth dockyard, nato, national security etc etc etc in absence of petty nationalism. I care about Scotland and its inhabitants and for me its not about 'damaging' the UK union.

Get it?

Mon Labour!!!

If you were to debate more along these lines and less trolling a sensible debate might break out and you might even win people round to your arguments.

[Tornadoes70]

If you were to debate more along these lines and less trolling a sensible debate might break out and you might even win people round to your arguments.

First of all I'm glad you've not descended into the usual snp trolling and secondly I've almost always stated these extremely crucial elements are first and foremost to my posting agin separatism.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/mjkindependent/status/1116302386082009089?s=21


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[Tornadoes70]

https://twitter.com/mjkindependent/status/1116302386082009089?s=21


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Joke right?

Whoever he is he is completely irrelevant to any relevant argument concerning crucial arguments as per jobs, benefits, housing, economy, pensions, border, currency etc etc etc.

God help us if we separate from our closest island neighbours upon such triviality facebook or other such irrelevancies.

Mon Labour!!!

[1875godsgift]

Its not about damaging my 'precious union' for me. Its about protecting jobs, benefits, the unemployed, the disabled, manufacturing, housing, NHS, mortgages, pensions, stability, border with our UK partners, currency, rosyth dockyard, nato, national security etc etc etc in absence of petty nationalism. I care about Scotland and its inhabitants and for me its not about 'damaging' the UK union.

Get it?

Mon Labour!!!

So how do you intend to protect all these things then?

[Tornadoes70]

So how do you intend to protect all these things then?

I could easily answer your singular question and state vote Jeremy Corbyn's Labour but will ask you firstly are you a UK born separatist or from outwith the UK?

Mon Labour!!!

[Fife-Hibee]

Its about protecting jobs, benefits, the unemployed, the disabled, manufacturing, housing, NHS, mortgages, pensions, stability, border with our UK partners, currency, rosyth dockyard, nato, national security etc etc etc in absence of petty nationalism.

Would you say our continued membership within the UK is helping to protect these things that you hold so dearly?

[Fife-Hibee]

I could easily answer your singular question and state vote Jeremy Corbyn's Labour but will ask you firstly are you a UK born separatist or from outwith the UK?

Mon Labour!!!

Can't speak for him. But Jeremy Corbyn certainly is. Want's to rip the UK out of it's biggest market and let go of Northern Ireland so it can reunite with the republic.

[SHODAN]

https://twitter.com/mjkindependent/status/1116302386082009089?s=21


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We won't be allowed to have one until after we leave at the absolute earliest, if at all.

[Fife-Hibee]

We won't be allowed to have one until after we leave at the absolute earliest, if at all.

Would be interesting to see how the EU would react to a non-binding referendum, should we be denied the right from UK Government. Just get the feeling that there is a hidden message in there somewhere.

[Tornadoes70]

Would be interesting to see how the EU would react to a non-binding referendum, should we be denied the right from UK Government. Just get the feeling that there is a hidden message in there somewhere.

You mean one that only separatists might participate in?

Would mean as much as a scrap of paper to be perfectly honest.

We've been part of the UK for many a year I doubt very much a one sided non legal binding snp/separatist poll would mean anything at all but harden resolve among the non separatist UK movement.

Most living Hibernian supporters have been born into and within the UK and those who wish to move outwith are rightly named separatists in my opinion.

Mon Labour!!!

[Fife-Hibee]

You mean one that only separatists might participate in?

Would mean as much as a scrap of paper to be perfectly honest.

We've been part of the UK for many a year I doubt very much a one sided non legal binding snp/separatist poll would mean anything at all but harden resolve among the non separatist UK movement.

Most living Hibernian supporters have been born into and within the UK and those who wish to move outwith are rightly named separatists in my opinion.

Mon Labour!!!

I notice you didn't respond to my point about your dear "socialist" leader. The biggest separatist of them all.

[Callum_62]

Most living Hibernian supporters have been born into and within the UK and those who wish to move outwith are rightly named separatists in my opinion.


Really? You shouldve said [emoji102]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190413/5d97fa0bb5153dabbd2a5c7405c2581a.jpg

Less chance of GE with these numbers from yougov unless hard brexiteers and labour work together to bring down govt.
Going forward, if we end up not leaving, the fact there is two brexit parties (brexit and UKIP) will split their vote and make it easier to ignore them.
Looks like two party politics will be taking a break for a while though.


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[Ozyhibby]

You mean one that only separatists might participate in?

Would mean as much as a scrap of paper to be perfectly honest.

We've been part of the UK for many a year I doubt very much a one sided non legal binding snp/separatist poll would mean anything at all but harden resolve among the non separatist UK movement.

Most living Hibernian supporters have been born into and within the UK and those who wish to move outwith are rightly named separatists in my opinion.

Mon Labour!!!

It’s all about the name calling. [emoji23]


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[Hibbyradge]

Im not going to criticise anyone for their vote, you have to follow your heart on it. (Although refusing to vote for Labour because of Corbyns leadership, and plumping for Vince Cables Lib Dems as a result is a bit controversial. I mean at least Jeremy is actually ALIVE.)

Labour are a distant third in York Outer.

[Hibbyradge]

Yeah and all the while the snp and their fellow independeteers have been even more obstructive at petty politicking threatening yet another extremely divisive attempt to destabilize Scotland by asking for yet 'another' referendum that was won decisively just four years ago in 2014 by the No to separatism movement.

:confused:

Gonny give it a rest.

This is the Brexit thread. Piss off somewhere else with your incoherent anti SNP ramblings.

[James310]

Gonny give it a rest.

This is the Brexit thread. Piss off somewhere else with your incoherent anti SNP ramblings.

And the SNP have not used Brexit to stoke the fires of another referendum?

[Moulin Yarns]

And the SNP have not used Brexit to stoke the fires of another referendum?

The SNP has been consistently working towards a custom Union and single market solution to Brexit for the whole of the UK.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-46289739

[jonty]

https://twitter.com/mjkindependent/status/1116302386082009089?s=21


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Brilliant. So after being told in 2014 that they only way to stay in the EU was to stay with the UK, its now the situation where if Scotland wants to stay in the EU (will of the people) then we have to become independent.

62% voted remain in EU.
55% voted to remain in UK.

The EU has it.

Will of the people and all that. the vote must be respected. :wink:

[James310]

The SNP has been consistently working towards a custom Union and single market solution to Brexit for the whole of the UK.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-46289739

So it's fair game to comment on the SNP on this thread then? Or should we all piss off if we do? (I know you never made that comment)

[James310]

Brilliant. So after being told in 2014 that they only way to stay in the EU was to stay with the UK, its now the situation where if Scotland wants to stay in the EU (will of the people) then we have to become independent.

62% voted remain in EU.
55% voted to remain in UK.

The EU has it.

Will of the people and all that. the vote must be respected. :wink:

Not really breaking news when that clip is a couple of years old.

The same man said.

With #Brexit, the people of Europe can now see for themselves that the projects of nationalists and populists always end in disaster, a mess in which everyone loses. Watch my full speech 👇 https://t.co/C2Cjx5HpZA

[Moulin Yarns]

And the SNP have not used Brexit to stoke the fires of another referendum?

Correct.

[James310]

Correct.

Sure, so Ian Blackford every other weeks never mentions it in parliament. OK then.

I don't blame them to be honest, would be a missed opportunity if they never. But at least admit it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sure, so Ian Blackford every other weeks never mentions it in parliament. OK then.

I don't blame them to be honest, would be a missed opportunity if they never. But at least admit it.

Read my original reply. Brexit is not being used by the snp to push for indyref2. They are trying to stay in the single market and customs union.

[Fife-Hibee]

And the SNP have not used Brexit to stoke the fires of another referendum?

I take it you don't read party manifestos? If you had read the SNP one, then this would come as no shock to you.

[James310]

I take it you don't read party manifestos? If you had read the SNP one, then this would come as no shock to you.

So you disagree with Moulin Yarns?

[Moulin Yarns]

So it's fair game to comment on the SNP on this thread then? Or should we all piss off if we do? (I know you never made that comment)

I know you won't bother reading this, but you should. It will put your mind at rest 😉

https://www.snp.org/policies/what-is-the-snp-plan-for-brexit/

[jonty]

Not really breaking news when that clip is a couple of years old.

The same man said.

With #Brexit, the people of Europe can now see for themselves that the projects of nationalists and populists always end in disaster, a mess in which everyone loses. Watch my full speech �� https://t.co/C2Cjx5HpZA

So you agree that the two nationalist parties in charge of Brexit have ****ed everything up. Good to know :greengrin

And you agree that Scotland should remain in the EU, based on voting?

(and I didn't claim it was breaking news)

Otherwise, if you were only going to have a dig a the link, why not quote the original post?

[Tornadoes70]

Gonny give it a rest.

This is the Brexit thread. Piss off somewhere else with your incoherent anti SNP ramblings.

Becoming well used to SNP trolling and nonsensical ever more desperate posting.

Seems the SNP don't care for fellow Hi bees having different political beliefs.

Why don't you take your own advice and refrain from agitating using my and other Hi bees Edinburgh British club from your separatist ideology. That would be far more productive than being an SNP troll.

Most living Hibernian supporters in and around Edinburgh were born into the United Kingdom and are Scottish and British, fact.

Mon Labour!!!

[Callum_62]

Most living Hibernian supporters in and around Edinburgh were born into the United Kingdom and are Scottish and British, fact.


Im curious as to why you think that matters?



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[Jack]

Becoming well used to SNP trolling and nonsensical ever more desperate posting.

Seems the SNP don't care for fellow Hi bees having different political beliefs.

Why don't you take your own advice and refrain from agitating using my and other Hi bees Edinburgh British club from your separatist ideology. That would be far more productive than being an SNP troll.

Most living Hibernian supporters in and around Edinburgh were born into the United Kingdom and are Scottish and British, fact.

Mon Labour!!!

To be fair you spoil an otherwise decent conversation.

[Hibbyradge]

Becoming well used to SNP trolling and nonsensical ever more desperate posting.

Seems the SNP don't care for fellow Hi bees having different political beliefs.

Why don't you take your own advice and refrain from agitating using my and other Hi bees Edinburgh British club from your separatist ideology. That would be far more productive than being an SNP troll.

Most living Hibernian supporters in and around Edinburgh were born into the United Kingdom and are Scottish and British, fact.

Mon Labour!!!



I can't vote SNP.

I live in York.

[1875godsgift]

Becoming well used to SNP trolling and nonsensical ever more desperate posting.

Seems the SNP don't care for fellow Hi bees having different political beliefs.

Why don't you take your own advice and refrain from agitating using my and other Hi bees Edinburgh British club from your separatist ideology. That would be far more productive than being an SNP troll.

Most living Hibernian supporters in and around Edinburgh were born into the United Kingdom and are Scottish and British, fact.

Mon Labour!!!

Errmm..... Scottish with Irish roots perhaps?

[James310]

I can't vote SNP.

I live in York.

Uncalled for, personal abuse is never nice to see on here.

This place will become a SNP echo chamber soon. You can all agree with each other and say how great everything is.

[The Modfather]

Uncalled for, personal abuse is never nice to see on here.

This place will become a SNP echo chamber soon. You can all agree with each other and say how great everything is.

It’s sad what the Holy Ground has become. Ignsh trolls, someone reacts and you’re there to feed off it with your “SNP echo chamber” rhetoric.

There used to be lots of contributors to the Holy Ground but it’s now only about 7 or 8 regular posters.

[Hibbyradge]

Uncalled for, personal abuse is never nice to see on here.

This place will become a SNP echo chamber soon. You can all agree with each other and say how great everything is.

It wasn't personal abuse. I was referring to his post.

I started this thread to discuss Brexit.

Why are we having to tolerate someone trolling about the SNP?

The SNP have got nothing to do with me.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/13/corbyn-told-back-eu-referendum-or-lose-millions-voters-brexit

I think this scenario is fairly realistic, and applies to more than just young voters, although it's anyone's guess as to the actual numbers who would desert Labour.

Of course, the opportunity to get these people on board is also there, but what will Corbyn do?

Will he put his Euro scepticism to one side for the benefit of the Labour Party, or will he be compelled to stick to his principled beliefs regardless of the implications?

I have a strong feeling that it will be the latter.

[Jack Hackett]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/13/corbyn-told-back-eu-referendum-or-lose-millions-voters-brexit

I think this scenario is fairly realistic, and applies to more than just young voters, although it's anyone's guess as to the actual numbers who would desert Labour.

Of course, the opportunity to get these people on board is also there, but what will Corbyn do?

Will he put his Euro scepticism to one side for the benefit of the Labour Party, or will he be compelled to stick to his principled beliefs regardless of the implications?

I have a strong feeling that it will be the latter.

The warning is clear. I have been a traditional Labour voter, but will not vote for them again should it come to a GE. I have an option as I live in Brighton. At the last GE, the Libdems did not field a candidate in order to help the Greens, and they won the seat with a massive majority in what was a marginal constituency.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies/E14000598

... Take note of UKIP's votes :faf:

Jeremy needs to pull his head out of his erchie

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/13/corbyn-told-back-eu-referendum-or-lose-millions-voters-brexit

I think this scenario is fairly realistic, and applies to more than just young voters, although it's anyone's guess as to the actual numbers who would desert Labour.

Of course, the opportunity to get these people on board is also there, but what will Corbyn do?

Will he put his Euro scepticism to one side for the benefit of the Labour Party, or will he be compelled to stick to his principled beliefs regardless of the implications?

I have a strong feeling that it will be the latter.

Again, there's too much emphasis on JC in any analysis of Labours position. It's not all about him. Keir Starker Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson are all vital to the project and will insist on a confirmatory referendum being on the table. And it will be, I'm sure of it.

[Jack Hackett]

Again, there's too much emphasis on JC in any analysis of Labours position. It's not all about him. Keir Starker Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson are all vital to the project and will insist on a confirmatory referendum being on the table. And it will be, I'm sure of it.

Unfortunately, Jeremy gets all the headlines and is the one at the forefront when people are forming their impressions. I am actually quite taken with Tom Watson and believe he would take Labour further than the current incumbent as leader of the party.

[lapsedhibee]

Again, there's too much emphasis on JC in any analysis of Labours position. It's not all about him. Keir Starker Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson are all vital to the project and will insist on a confirmatory referendum being on the table. And it will be, I'm sure of it.

Labour going, as Nye Bevan would say, naked into the conference chamber?

[Hibbyradge]

Again, there's too much emphasis on JC in any analysis of Labours position. It's not all about him. Keir Starker Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson are all vital to the project and will insist on a confirmatory referendum being on the table. And it will be, I'm sure of it.

You've been consistent with your optimism and, not only do I admire that, I very much hope you're right.

There's a chance you're not, however, and that's what haunts me.

[Moulin Yarns]

Uncalled for, personal abuse is never nice to see on here.

This place will become a SNP echo chamber soon. You can all agree with each other and say how great everything is.

This thread is about Brexit, I don't see any abuse, and if you want to have a go at the SNP there is a better thread for that.

The radge is not able to vote for the snp is all he has said.

[Colr]

Unfortunately, Jeremy gets all the headlines and is the one at the forefront when people are forming their impressions. I am actually quite taken with Tom Watson and believe he would take Labour further than the current incumbent as leader of the party.

Tom Watson was elected so Corbyn can’t sack him.

[SHODAN]

I'll admit that I'm pro-independence, but I'm far more pro-EU than I am pro-independence and would happily shelve a referendum for "a generation" as people keep saying if we stay in the EU or even the single market. It would be nice for a bit of stability.

I quite like Corbyn and could see myself vote for Labour, but the only party to consistently stand up for EU migrants though this whole Brexit debacle is the SNP, which affects me and my family as we're very much a mixed-nationality lot in my household. Labour have consistently advocated the removal of freedom of movement which is unacceptable for me, especially for a so-called "socialist" party.

The SNP's "red line" is single market membership and therefore freedom of movement - possibly because EU migrants can vote in Scottish elections (which should apply to UK elections too). This guarantees safety and security for all EU citizens in the future from, say, Johnson coming in and deciding this whole settled status nonsense is a bunch of lefty tosh.

I challenge anyone to dispute why I refuse to vote for a party that would be entirely complicit in people in my family becoming second-class citizens in the country they have chosen to make a life in.

[Jack Hackett]

Tom Watson was elected so Corbyn can’t sack him.

Is there history between them? I'm not really up to speed with current internal goings on as brexit is taking most of my attention.

[hibsbollah]

Labour going, as Nye Bevan would say, naked into the conference chamber?

:greengrin Very good. Sheer naked ambition from Keir there.

[hibsbollah]

I quite like Corbyn.

:tsk tsk: You won't last long on here with that attitude. You may as well say you like Joey Barton.:furious:

[hibsbollah]

Is there history between them? I'm not really up to speed with current internal goings on as brexit is taking most of my attention.

Tom Watson is an excellent MP, hes been very active taking on the gambling industry, amongst other things.

[Hibbyradge]

:tsk tsk: You won't last long on here with that attitude. You may as well say you like Joey Barton.:furious:

Poor from you, sir.

[hibsbollah]

Poor from you, sir.

You think? Light hearted, surely. I've had to put up with worse.

[Smartie]

Jeremy Corbyn is a decent chap whose values I would imagine the vast majority of people on here could relate to. There can't be many who would be able to say with their hand on their heart that they dislike him.

It would be fair to say that amongst the individuals in Hibs.net we have varying levels of happiness regarding the thought of him leading the country.

[Hibbyradge]

You think? Light hearted, surely. I've had to put up with worse.

Do I detect a wee bit of whataboutery creeping in there? :greengrin

Probably a bit sensitive on my part, right enough.

[Hibbyradge]

Jeremy Corbyn is a decent chap whose values I would imagine the vast majority of people on here could relate to. There can't be many who would be able to say with their hand on their heart that they dislike him.

It would be fair to say that amongst the individuals in Hibs.net we have varying levels of happiness regarding the thought of him leading the country.

I'd be happy if he was leading the country. I'm unhappy that it appears that, despite the Tories being utterly incompetent and at war with themselves, he never will.

I'm also not happy with his attitude towards Europe.

Having a decent chap as leader of the opposition is all very well, but I'd prefer an indecent Labour pm.

[Fife-Hibee]

Jeremy Corbyn is a decent chap whose values I would imagine the vast majority of people on here could relate to. There can't be many who would be able to say with their hand on their heart that they dislike him.

It would be fair to say that amongst the individuals in Hibs.net we have varying levels of happiness regarding the thought of him leading the country.

Hand on heart. I dislike him. He's a man with pretendy values.

[Smartie]

Hand on heart. I dislike him. He's a man with pretendy values.

He has values all right.

Sadly he's been elevated to a position where those values aren't necessarily an asset, in fact they are a bit of a liability.

[Jack]

The Torys have played a blinder stitching up Corbyn.

Every Tory party member has the line to take in any interview and that's 'anyone but Corbyn' and perm any 3 from 10 reasons. Much of it at best stretching the truth.

Labour could easily have done the same with May or any of the potential Tory leaders but are too involved fighting amongst themselves. I think Private Eye has been more effective at calling out the Tory scams and lies.

Personally, if it wasn't for his and Labour's stance on Scottish Independence, I could be enticed into voting for Labour. I suspect many voters in Scotland feel the same.

[Jack Hackett]

Can't post a link, but the Express is running with a story that Nancy Pelosi has told May that a US/UK trade deal won't happen if Brexit weakens The GF Agreement. That'll shove potatoes up a few exhaust pipes. It's all coming apart at the seams 👍

[Ozyhibby]

Can't post a link, but the Express is running with a story that Nancy Pelosi has told May that a US/UK trade deal won't happen if Brexit weakens The GF Agreement. That'll shove potatoes up a few exhaust pipes. It's all coming apart at the seams [emoji106]

Which seems fair enough as the US were heavily involved in the deal. Breaking international treaties has consequences.


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[Jim44]

I haven’t heard the B word for a few days now. Is it all over? :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

Which seems fair enough as the US were heavily involved in the deal. Breaking international treaties has consequences.


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Yeah but... Unicorns!

[lapsedhibee]

Can't post a link, but the Express is running with a story that Nancy Pelosi has told May that a US/UK trade deal won't happen if Brexit weakens The GF Agreement. That'll shove potatoes up a few exhaust pipes. It's all coming apart at the seams 👍
Only true if it ever was a coherent thing, which it wasn't. That there could be a Brexit in anything other than name only AND a continuing United Kingdom was always logically incoherent. Only surprised the razor-sharp intellect that is Gino Francois never spotted it.

[Jack Hackett]

Can't post a link, but the Express is running with a story that Nancy Pelosi has told May that a US/UK trade deal won't happen if Brexit weakens The GF Agreement. That'll shove potatoes up a few exhaust pipes. It's all coming apart at the seams 👍

Can post a link now I'm home, but I thought I'd spare you the Express link :wink:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17577735.nancy-pelosi-issues-post-brexit-trade-warning-during-ireland-visit/

[JeMeSouviens]

A good write up of Labour's internal tensions and gradual shift to Remain:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/17/why-labours-leader-has-to-perform-a-brexit-balancing-act

[hibsbollah]

Amazing story on Leave EUs fake news.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-leave-eu-faked-migrant-footage?fbclid=IwAR3DIay-e1RlIE1749LWoGL8OCjwKaiUByxcSnAQOukNT9y8eqdvXojUfu I

[hibsbollah]

A good write up of Labour's internal tensions and gradual shift to Remain:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/17/why-labours-leader-has-to-perform-a-brexit-balancing-act

Interesting article, but it's passages like this that rip my knitting "But the Labour leader is a longtime Eurosceptic and he made clear in the early hours of the morning after the Brexit vote that his party would honour the result.".

What on earth does the writer think would have happened if Labour, or any UK political party, had 'made it clear that his party wouldn't honour the result'? Was Corbyn going to rock up the morning after 52/48 and say into the microphones 'Thanks for voting, Britain, but actually because we lost the referendum (that I, the arch Eurosceptic, remember campaigned for)we're now going to ignore the result, have a nice day'??

I'm in favour of Ref2/confirm ref or whatever you want to call it, but there is an annoying habit in some analysis to forget that actually, the original result does have some democratic moral legitimacy. Politicians, especially Labour ones, have needed to proceed with a lot of care in showing that circumstances have changed before putting things in place that could reverse it. Of course, there will always be those who are always going to scream Treason whatever you do.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting article, but it's passages like this that rip my knitting "But the Labour leader is a longtime Eurosceptic and he made clear in the early hours of the morning after the Brexit vote that his party would honour the result.".

What on earth does the writer think would have happened if Labour, or any UK political party, had 'made it clear that his party wouldn't honour the result'? Was Corbyn going to rock up the morning after 52/48 and say into the microphones 'Thanks for voting, Britain, but actually because we lost the referendum (that I, the arch Eurosceptic, remember campaigned for)we're now going to ignore the result, have a nice day'??

I'm in favour of Ref2/confirm ref or whatever you want to call it, but there is an annoying habit in some analysis to forget that actually, the original result does have some democratic moral legitimacy. Politicians, especially Labour ones, have needed to proceed with a lot of care in showing that circumstances have changed before putting things in place that could reverse it. Of course, there will always be those who are always going to scream Treason whatever you do.

I think the point is that having made the politically necessary commitment to respect the result, Lab couldn't just about turn and try to stop Brexit despite that being the overwhelming wish of their activists. I think it's explanatory rather than condemnatory. Maybe you're a tad defensive of your long term Eurosceptic leader. :wink::greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

It could be worse. A lot worse

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47954912

[Colr]

I think the point is that having made the politically necessary commitment to respect the result, Lab couldn't just about turn and try to stop Brexit despite that being the overwhelming wish of their activists. I think it's explanatory rather than condemnatory. Maybe you're a tad defensive of your long term Eurosceptic leader. :wink::greengrin

In this isn’t Corbyn doing exactly what he accuses Blair of and irnoring the membership to pursue what he thinks is in the leaderships best interest?

[JeMeSouviens]

In this isn’t Corbyn doing exactly what he accuses Blair of and irnoring the membership to pursue what he thinks is in the leaderships best interest?

Yes. Which isn't to say it's necessarily the wrong thing to do (at least tactically) but it's obv hypocritical.

[Smartie]

In this isn’t Corbyn doing exactly what he accuses Blair of and irnoring the membership to pursue what he thinks is in the leaderships best interest?

Is leadership not about making decisions about which direction you're going to go and then having people follow you?

It's worked out well for the SNP.

The Tories and Labour are constantly being held to ransom by the "parties within the party" that they both possess. The leadership of both parties continue to dither and encounter the inevitable problems that parties suffer when their leadership is propelled along by memberships who cannot agree with one another.

The SNP could have spent the past few years dithering, worrying about what their followers who voted to Leave thought. They didn't, they adopted a position and left it up to folk to follow them or not and is had led to them looking far better led than any of the other parties (whether you like them, agree with their policies or not).

[Colr]

Is leadership not about making decisions about which direction you're going to go and then having people follow you?

It's worked out well for the SNP.

The Tories and Labour are constantly being held to ransom by the "parties within the party" that they both possess. The leadership of both parties continue to dither and encounter the inevitable problems that parties suffer when their leadership is propelled along by memberships who cannot agree with one another.

The SNP could have spent the past few years dithering, worrying about what their followers who voted to Leave thought. They didn't, they adopted a position and left it up to folk to follow them or not and is had led to them looking far better led than any of the other parties (whether you like them, agree with their policies or not).

JC has continually said that the Labour party membership should determine policy. He continually ignores the young, mass movement he created on the back of this promise.

[hibsbollah]

I think the point is that having made the politically necessary commitment to respect the result, Lab couldn't just about turn and try to stop Brexit despite that being the overwhelming wish of their activists. I think it's explanatory rather than condemnatory. Maybe you're a tad defensive of your long term Eurosceptic leader. :wink::greengrin

If the piece had meant to say he couldn't overturn it, it would have said 'couldnt' in the piece, instead of 'didn't' which gives the illusion that there was an element of choice to accepting the referendum result. It's hardly a new narrative when it comes to Labours position either.

I didn't think the article was particularly biased in either direction, i just think that part of it has a crap bit of analysis within it. I accept I occasionally slip into defensive mode on the subject :greengrin

[Colr]

Good coverage of Aaron Banks lies and the roll of Robbie Gibb, now the Maybot’s comms director on C4.

[hibsbollah]

Good coverage of Aaron Banks lies and the roll of Robbie Gibb, now the Maybot’s comms director on C4.

See my link above to yesterday's C4 news report.

[ronaldo7]

Amazing story on Leave EUs fake news.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-leave-eu-faked-migrant-footage?fbclid=IwAR3DIay-e1RlIE1749LWoGL8OCjwKaiUByxcSnAQOukNT9y8eqdvXojUfu I

It's quite sad that some ex forces types, still want to play, soldiers, and sailors.

Great work by channel 4.

[BroxburnHibee]

There should be a full inquiry over that referendum result.

[JeMeSouviens]

New Comres poll out today:

Remain 58
Leave 42

Westminster VI (changes vs last week):

LAB: 33%(+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BREX: 14% (+14)
CHUK: 9% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-4)
GRN: 3% (-)


Euro election VI (changes vs 2014 result):

LAB: 33% (+8)
CON: 18% (-6)
BREX: 17% (+17)
CHUK: 9% (+9)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
UKIP: 5% (-22)
GRN: 5% (-2)


Tory meltdown in progress. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

New Comres poll out today:

Remain 58
Leave 42

Westminster VI (changes vs last week):

LAB: 33%(+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BREX: 14% (+14)
CHUK: 9% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-4)
GRN: 3% (-)


Euro election VI (changes vs 2014 result):

LAB: 33% (+8)
CON: 18% (-6)
BREX: 17% (+17)
CHUK: 9% (+9)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
UKIP: 5% (-22)
GRN: 5% (-2)


Tory meltdown in progress. :greengrin

Thankfully UKIP appears to be following, defecting to the Faux Rage Fan Club.

[Jack Hackett]

Apparently, 80% of respondents to an Express poll for the next tory leader voted for BJ... If you ever needed proof that the tories are Donald Ducked

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47974036

His use of Twitter in 2016 hit the headlines when he responded to Labour MP Jess Phillips' concerns over threats of sexual assault by saying: "I wouldn't even rape you.... feminism is cancer."


Carl Benjamin wants to stand to become an MEP for the South West for UKIP in the European elections on May 23.
Members of UKIP's Swindon branch said Mr Benjamin had only joined the local party recently and he should be deselected.
At a news conference in London, Mr Benjamin accused media outlets of "smearing" him.
"I'm not going to apologise for my crimes against political correctness, I hate political correctness," he said.



'kin sickening :bitchy: then UKIP heid tw@t walking out of an interview in a hissy fit after being asked his views on Benjamin

[Ozyhibby]

New Comres poll out today:

Remain 58
Leave 42

Westminster VI (changes vs last week):

LAB: 33%(+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BREX: 14% (+14)
CHUK: 9% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-4)
GRN: 3% (-)


Euro election VI (changes vs 2014 result):

LAB: 33% (+8)
CON: 18% (-6)
BREX: 17% (+17)
CHUK: 9% (+9)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
UKIP: 5% (-22)
GRN: 5% (-2)


Tory meltdown in progress. :greengrin

That may not be great if you want to remain in the EU. TM May look at that and think that going for a No Deal brexit May be a better option than watching her party break up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Callum_62]

New Comres poll out today:

Remain 58
Leave 42

Westminster VI (changes vs last week):

LAB: 33%(+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BREX: 14% (+14)
CHUK: 9% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-4)
GRN: 3%

So remain leaning/soft brexit parties
52%

Brexit/ hard brexit parties
42%



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stoneyburn hibs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47974036

His use of Twitter in 2016 hit the headlines when he responded to Labour MP Jess Phillips' concerns over threats of sexual assault by saying: "I wouldn't even rape you.... feminism is cancer."


Carl Benjamin wants to stand to become an MEP for the South West for UKIP in the European elections on May 23.
Members of UKIP's Swindon branch said Mr Benjamin had only joined the local party recently and he should be deselected.
At a news conference in London, Mr Benjamin accused media outlets of "smearing" him.
"I'm not going to apologise for my crimes against political correctness, I hate political correctness," he said.



'kin sickening :bitchy: then UKIP heid tw@t walking out of an interview in a hissy fit after being asked his views on Benjamin

C4 news covered it tonight, what a vile character.

[JeMeSouviens]

How Ireland comprehensively outmanoeuvred the Tory idiots:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/20/labour-nigel-farage-brexit-european-elections

[ronaldo7]

Jean-Christopher Lagarde, opens up the door to an independent, Scotland getting a clear run into the EU, after ditching the UK.

"If Scotland decides to leave the UK, it has its place in the European Union, without delay, and without conditions. France must not repeat the mistakes of 2014, and must open the door to our Scottish friends."

That's the Germans, Belgians, and French lined up then. Just not all of them.

#auldalliance

[James310]

Jean-Christopher Lagarde, opens up the door to an independent, Scotland getting a clear run into the EU, after ditching the UK.

"If Scotland decides to leave the UK, it has its place in the European Union, without delay, and without conditions. France must not repeat the mistakes of 2014, and must open the door to our Scottish friends."

That's the Germans, Belgians, and French lined up then. Just not all of them.

#auldalliance

You can't join the EU using a currency of another country and the Central Bank of another country. So how long will the wait be? 15 to 20 years as has been suggested?

Your French fellow has no power in the EU (or France by the looks of it) so it's a stretch to say the French are all lined up?

He is also under investigation for embezzlement of public funds!

[JeMeSouviens]

You can't join the EU using a currency of another country and the Central Bank of another country. So how long will the wait be? 15 to 20 years as has been suggested?

Blatant flat out lies. You have some neck on you.