Brexit - what will happen next

[Ozyhibby]

Is the best option for the SNP not the UK to stay in the EU? If we are out the EU then if an Independent Scotland wants to join the EU how do we tackle issue we will have a land border with a non EU member?

Also interesting to note the SNP block vote of 35 had major influence last night, you could argue it changed the direction of Brexit as it passed the amendment. But we don't have a say at Westminster do we?

Precisely my point. If there is a soft brexit then the rest of the uk stays in the customs union and single market then there is no border issue for an independent Scotland.
We will be in the EU helping make law and England will be outside abiding by those laws. Perfect.[emoji3]


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[Colr]

I will be proposing that the UK alternates between being in and out of the EU.

I call this the Hokey Cokey Brexit.

I expect the full backing of the DUP as the associated dance and song is reputed to be offensive to catholics.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/catholic-leaders-say-hokey-cokey-is-faith-hate-1-1152724/amp

[Ozyhibby]

DUP starting to buckle now. Looking like they will back May’s deal.


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[Callum_62]

Surely it cant be right the very same deal is presented a few sitting days apart

Folk are being pressured or scared into voting for this over a possible no brexit


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[JeMeSouviens]

Today's votes:

1. Gov motion to ask EU for extension - short if mv3 passes next week, long if it doesn't

2. Amendment calling for Ref 2 from TIG ex-Tory Sarah Wollaston

3. Amendment by Hillary Benn and large cross-party faction with the usual suspects (Letwin, Cooper, Grieve et al) calling for indicative votes and seizing control of the Commons timetable to hold them

4. Amendment by Lab front bench calling for extension and "provide parliamentary time for this House to find a majority for a different approach"

5. Amendment by Lab's Chris Bryant calling on the Speaker to rule out holding mv3 because it's just the same as mv1 & 2, which is apparently a bit dicey according to parliamentary precedent.

[ronaldo7]

DUP starting to buckle now. Looking like they will back May’s deal.


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They had a long meeting with rumpole yesterday. It looks like he's brow beat them into submission with another wad of cash.

[Ozyhibby]

Labour refusing to vote for 2nd referendum today.


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[Colr]

Labour refusing to vote for 2nd referendum today.


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Corbyn is an obfuscating weasel who regards the Treatise on Equivocation as a playbook.

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour refusing to vote for 2nd referendum today.


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PV campaign says "now is not the time":


The People’s Vote campaign does not instruct its supporters in parliament on how to vote. We recognise there is a range of opinions on when to press the case for the public being given the final say, which means some of these MPs will vote for the Wollaston amendment, some may vote against, and some will abstain.

But we do not think today is the right time to test the will of the house on the case for a new public vote. Instead, this is the time for parliament to declare it wants an extension of article 50 so that, after two-and-a-half years of vexed negotiations, our political leaders can finally decide on what Brexit means.

That is because a People’s Vote is not just another option in this Brexit crisis – it is a solution to this crisis. When the real costs of Brexit are measured up against the broken promises made for it in 2016, we believe Parliament will have better opportunities to decide it is only fair and reasonable to give the public a real say on this crucial decision for our country.

[marinello59]

Labour refusing to vote for 2nd referendum today.


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A position the People’s vote campaign agrees with. I think. Positions seem to be changing so quickly.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ian Blackford calls Labour position "a fraud". Not helpful at this point I would suggest.

[JeMeSouviens]

Keir Starmer - "It is obvious that we're supportive of the principle, it's a question of timing"

[JeMeSouviens]

Starmer asked if Labour will back Kyle/Wilson plan for a confirmatory second referendum (ie, backing a Brexit deal, subject to it being put to a public vote). Answers "Yes". :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

A position the People’s vote campaign agrees with. I think. Positions seem to be changing so quickly.

They’ll be wanting everyone to go out and march for it this weekend but they won’t back it in parliament? Jokers.


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[BroxburnHibee]

They could back the deal on the proviso that it must be ratified by a peoples vote. EU would grant an extension on that.

No chance May would go for it though. Especially if she thinks the DUP could be bought.

[Callum_62]

Anarchy if the vote tonight ends Mays MV3


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[hibsbollah]

A position the People’s vote campaign agrees with. I think. Positions seem to be changing so quickly.

...which is absolutely consistent with shadow front bench policy, it's a tactical rationale about defeating May at the right time, and absolutely nothing to do with lack of desire to achieve Ref2. The People's Vote campaign, Alastair Campbell also tweeted his support for not voting for it now.

[BroxburnHibee]

Anarchy if the vote tonight ends Mays MV3


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How could that happen. The Cooper/Letwin amendment?

[Callum_62]

How could that happen. The Cooper/Letwin amendment?

Bryant/brake amendment J from the BBC earlier

“...not to put its Brexit deal to another vote citing parliamentary rules”

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[BroxburnHibee]

Oh right yeah. I'd be surprised to see that go through but you live in hope.

I was watching yesterday when that point of order was brought up. Apparently there is precedent for it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Anarchy if the vote tonight ends Mays MV3


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Nae chance.

Today's amendment action is centred on Amendment (i) - Hilary Benn & co. If that passes then MV3 has little to no chance.

[Callum_62]

If we end up with Mays deal - will it be all that bad?

I just feel uncomfortable if it passes its been brow beaten in

Its no way to vote for such a major change


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[JeMeSouviens]

If we end up with Mays deal - will it be all that bad?

I just feel uncomfortable if it passes its been brow beaten in

Its no way to vote for such a major change


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Depends what you are willing to put up with. The backstop really is key to what it means in the long term and why it's such a big deal if you're a Hard Tory Brexiteer (HTB). It applies unless/until either

- the eventually negotiated future trading arrangement makes border infrastructure unnecessary - which means Brexit would have to be very soft, probably a single customs territory and very close regulatory alignment.

or

- tech solutions come along that can make crossing customs and regulatory jurisdictions possible without physical checks

The fact that the HTBs are so up in arms about it tells you they know fine well that the tech solutions are not coming any time soon. So we are either in very close alignment with the EU by agreed means or in v close alignment by being in the backstop. The fact that the tech way out is so far off would almost certainly mean the long term relationship would be a closely aligned soft-ish one.

If regulatory divergence (read lowering standards, workers' rights, environmental protections) in order to strike super duper trade deals with the likes of Trump is your bag, it's a disaster. For the rest of us, it makes things a bit worse in several areas:

- ends our right to freedom of movement across Europe
- a drag on existing trade due to extra costs, paperwork, bureaucracy
- will make the UK a less attractive place for the immigrants we need for our economy, especially in Scotland, the backwater of the new backwater
- smaller economy -> less tax receipts -> worse public services
- we will be following EU regulations with no say in making them

[Moulin Yarns]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/3D73/production/_106013751_03_brexit_flow_revised_timeline_v2_640-nc.png

[lapsedhibee]

King shambles, the House of Commons voting procedure. Currently all filing out to vote on an amendment to an amendment. 15 minutes later, another 15 minutes to vote on the amended (or not) amendment. This is going to go on for an hour, until eventually the motion is voted on.

Somebody with a very fast calculator will have worked out how much at MPs' salary rates this timewasting costs the country over the life of a parliament. My guess, £87424058247502.

[grunt]

For the rest of us, it makes things a bit worse in several areas:

- ends our right to freedom of movement across Europe
- a drag on existing trade due to extra costs, paperwork, bureaucracy
- will make the UK a less attractive place for the immigrants we need for our economy, especially in Scotland, the backwater of the new backwater
- smaller economy -> less tax receipts -> worse public services
- we will be following EU regulations with no say in making themVery clearly stated. Remind me what the benefits are? Oh, yes, "sovereignty". Which we already had, "although it didn't feel like it".

FFS.

[cabbageandribs1875]

can they not all just get wee buzzers with Aye and Naw :rolleyes:simples, 21st century and all that

[James310]

Is the Benn one now the important one?

[JeMeSouviens]

Very clearly stated. Remind me what the benefits are? Oh, yes, "sovereignty". Which we already had, "although it didn't feel like it".

FFS.

Less Poles is apparently the "big win". :rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Powell benn amendment loses by 3


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[JeMeSouviens]

Powell benn amendment loses by 3


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Not the Benn amendment, this was an amendment to the Benn amendment to limit the length of extension (I think).

[Callum_62]

Not the Benn amendment, this was an amendment to the Benn amendment to limit the length of extension (I think).

Sorry powell amendment to benn [emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

The Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle voted both for and against the Wollaston amendment. That is normally something MPs do if they want to actively register an abstention.

Otherwise, if MPs do not vote in a division, it is not clear whether they have abstained out of choice, whether they were paired, or whether they were unavailable for some other reason.

:confused:

Isn't Westminster awesome? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry powell amendment to benn [emoji23]


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As if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Paul Mason on ref2 vote:



So don't listen to people saying PV is over. I don't care how many right wing Labour MPs oppose it "in principle" - the front bench supports Kyle / Wilson at the right moment and the full pressure of the labour movement will be applied to anyone who tries to save Theresa May.

[JeMeSouviens]

Benn loses by 2 votes. :rolleyes:

****.

[Callum_62]

Benn loses by 2 votes. :rolleyes:

****.

Why wouldn’t they want that?

We keep saying no - we need to find something that can move this forward


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[Hibbyradge]

Oh dear ...

[hibbybob]

King shambles, the House of Commons voting procedure. Currently all filing out to vote on an amendment to an amendment. 15 minutes later, another 15 minutes to vote on the amended (or not) amendment. This is going to go on for an hour, until eventually the motion is voted on.

Somebody with a very fast calculator will have worked out how much at MPs' salary rates this timewasting costs the country over the life of a parliament. My guess, £87424058247502.

Sorry if this is a daft question but why don't they just use an electronic system?
It would save so much time!

[JeMeSouviens]

Why wouldn’t they want that?

We keep saying no - we need to find something that can move this forward


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Not enough Tory remainers rebelled. The ones in cabinet, to keep their jobs for the time being. Others because they still think they can defeat MV3 next week and the result will be the same. Which is true but just more ******g delay.

[lapsedhibee]

Sorry if this is a daft question but why don't they just use an electronic system?
It would save so much time!

That's the way that Germans would do things but Mark Francois's dad fought them on the beaches in 1940 don't you know, and there's no way we're giving up our voting 'system' now.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why wouldn’t they want that?

We keep saying no - we need to find something that can move this forward


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Plus 6 Labour ****ing idiots of the most ****ing idiotic level of idiocy recorded in all the ****ing annals of idiocy. The idiocracy if you will:

Kevin Barron
Ronnie Campbell
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer

[lapsedhibee]

Paul Mason on ref2 vote:
That basically means MPs will be bullied and threatened, like Luciana Berger was. He's a nasty piece of work.

[Mibbes Aye]

The trouble with the May-chiavelli theory is that the key plank in building the “strategy” would have been completely ****ing up the 2017 election campaign to the point of losing her majority. I’m afraid that tips it from wildly implausible to just wrong.

Occam’s razor says she’s just a hopeless leader with the blinkers on.

I like what you did in the opening sentence -droll and clever.

I’m not sure about the rest though, and not sure about my own case if I’m being honest. I think she is hopeless but I also think she has been reactively fashioning a way that keeps her in power and drives towards a Remain or a very, very soft Brexit, but probably a Remain, by buying enough time to build up a public majority to overturn the first Ref, on the basis that leaving is a car crash.

Time will tell. Let’s revisit this in 2029 :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Plus 6 Labour ****ing idiots of the most ****ing idiotic level of idiocy recorded in all the ****ing annals of idiocy. The idiocracy if you will:

Kevin Barron
Ronnie Campbell
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer

When New Labour was in power that list would read Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al.

Serial discontents who take all the advantages of the party’s support and indulge themselves by refusing to maintain party discipline.

They are the left’s equivalent of Christopher Chope, Peter Bone and Phillip Davies.

[JeMeSouviens]

When New Labour was in power that list would read Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al.

Serial discontents who take all the advantages of the party’s support and indulge themselves by refusing to maintain party discipline.

They are the left’s equivalent of Christopher Chope, Peter Bone and Phillip Davies.

Indeed. Imagine how we'd have guffawed if anyone said they were all going to end up on the front bench! :confused:

[Mibbes Aye]

Indeed. Imagine how we'd have guffawed if anyone said they were all going to end up on the front bench! :confused:

I struggle with Corbyn. He is shambolic.

The thought of Hoey anywhere near the levers of power tips me over the edge.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Corbyn actually just got up and stated his commitment to supporting a public vote, just an hour after abstaining from an amendment backing a second referendum. :brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[hibsbollah]

Plus 6 Labour ****ing idiots of the most ****ing idiotic level of idiocy recorded in all the ****ing annals of idiocy. The idiocracy if you will:

Kevin Barron
Ronnie Campbell
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer

We've talked about some of those before; Ronnie Campbell and Graham Stringer in particular. Stringer is a serial climate change denier, gets substantial funding from Manchester airport after leaving their employment, and doesn't believe that dyslexia exists. That's what we're dealing with. Hopefully deselection beckons.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn actually just got up and stated his commitment to supporting a public vote, just an hour after abstaining from an amendment backing a second referendum. :brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

...and as discussed previously, he is only doing what is the PV campaigns actual policy:rolleyes: Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesnt mean it doesn't make sense.

[GlesgaeHibby]

...and as discussed previously, he is only doing what is the PV campaigns actual policy:rolleyes: Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesnt mean it doesn't make sense.

So their policy is that they won't vote for an opportunity to hold the peoples vote they want when they get a chance to do so in parliament? :confused:

[Callum_62]

So their policy is that they won't vote for an opportunity to hold the peoples vote they want when they get a chance to do so in parliament? :confused:

Now is not the time

A well used phrase it seems


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[lapsedhibee]

Corbyn actually just got up and stated his commitment to supporting a public vote, just an hour after abstaining from an amendment backing a second referendum. :brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

Shouted. :brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[hibsbollah]

So their policy is that they won't vote for an opportunity to hold the peoples vote they want when they get a chance to do so in parliament? :confused:

The MPs published an open letter explaining why; essentially its not the best chance of success. It's not clear they would have won the vote, They want to explore their own amendments/divisions to block Brexit first, before revisiting the PV vote later.

And tonight's extension means they have time to do that now and (arguably) Labours strategy has so far been successful. Obviously it's a lot easier to make this case now the PV campaign has also echoed it.

[Mibbes Aye]

We've talked about some of those before; Ronnie Campbell and Graham Stringer in particular. Stringer is a serial climate change denier, gets substantial funding from Manchester airport after leaving their employment, and doesn't believe that dyslexia exists. That's what we're dealing with. Hopefully deselection beckons.

The problem is the threat of deselection seems aimed at those who call out Corbyn for being a shambles or those whom Momentum have deemed ‘Blairite’

If deselection was effective, Corbyn and McDonnell would have lost the support and benefits of the Labour Party despite voting against the party nearly a thousand times. They didn’t because New Labour were so successful electorally that Corbyn and McDonnell weren’t worth bothering about, there were bigger things to concentrate on like governing, introducing the minimum wage and tackling child and pensioner poverty.

[hibsbollah]

The problem is the threat of deselection seems aimed at those who call out Corbyn for being a shambles or those whom Momentum have deemed ‘Blairite’

If deselection was effective, Corbyn and McDonnell would have lost the support and benefits of the Labour Party despite voting against the party nearly a thousand times. They didn’t because New Labour were so successful electorally that Corbyn and McDonnell weren’t worth bothering about, there were bigger things to concentrate on like governing, introducing the minimum wage and tackling child and pensioner poverty.

Deselection can happen to any MP who loses the confidence of their local party, regardless of their persuasion, I guess you know that. I know you have an arousal for trolling about Corbyn but I guess our friends and colleagues on Hibs net might want to keep this thread on topic, so keep it on Brexit, there's a good chap:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

Deselection can happen to any MP who loses the confidence of their local party, regardless of their persuasion, I guess you know that. I know you have an arousal for trolling about Corbyn but I guess our friends and colleagues on Hibs net might want to keep this thread on topic, so keep it on Brexit, there's a good chap:aok:

As I say, you can’t help getting personal when you are challenged.

Doesn’t do you any favours but it feels like your trope.

[JeMeSouviens]

As I say, you can’t help getting personal when you are challenged.

Doesn’t do you any favours but it feels like your trope.

Jeez get a room you 2. You're worse than me and J/J :greengrin Who obv I'm ignoring with some early success. :wink:

[hibsbollah]

As I say, you can’t help getting personal when you are challenged.

Doesn’t do you any favours but it feels like your trope.

I'd be amazed if anyone else but you thought my post was in any way out of order :confused: It certainly wasn't intended to be offensive.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd be amazed if anyone else but you thought my post was in any way out of order :confused: It certainly wasn't intended to be offensive.

I never said you were out of order or offensive.

I said you made it personal when you were challenged.

Up to you how you deal with that.

[hibsbollah]

I never said you were out of order or offensive.

I said you made it personal when you were challenged.

Up to you how you deal with that.

I'll just stay on topic and try to keep the moral high ground. Have a very pleasant evening:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

I'll just stay on topic and try to keep the moral high ground. Have a very pleasant evening:aok:

Okay, though I think you are kidding yourself if you are atop the moral high ground :greengrin

But I don’t want a fight and while I disagree with you on some stuff I still respect your opinion and enjoy reading your posts, whether I agree or not.

Have a very pleasant evening too.

[Mibbes Aye]

Jeez get a room you 2. You're worse than me and J/J :greengrin Who obv I'm ignoring with some early success. :wink:

Im careful about trying to speak for Hibsbollah but I think I am on safe ground saying we are both of the left, albeit different shades.

And the differences within the left are usually more divisive than those between left and right :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

The MPs published an open letter explaining why; essentially its not the best chance of success. It's not clear they would have won the vote, They want to explore their own amendments/divisions to block Brexit first, before revisiting the PV vote later.

And tonight's extension means they have time to do that now and (arguably) Labours strategy has so far been successful. Obviously it's a lot easier to make this case now the PV campaign has also echoed it.

Labours strategy was to push for a vote of no confidence and general election, and they held off on that until they felt they had a chance of success. He's got form for sitting on his hands instead of taking action.

[ronaldo7]

Im careful about trying to speak for Hibsbollah but I think I am on safe ground saying we are both of the left, albeit different shades.

And the differences within the left are usually more divisive than those between left and right :greengrin



:faf::faf::faf:

Shades of Soubry, or shades of Seumas

[hibsbollah]

:faf::faf::faf:

Shades of Soubry, or shades of Seumas

https://goo.gl/images/66vcnN

[One Day Soon]

The size of Blackford, clearly not struggling too much to cope with austerity. It's difficult to listen to what he says about Brexit he's so visually distracting.

[lapsedhibee]

The size of Blackford, clearly not struggling too much to cope with austerity. It's difficult to listen to what he says about Brexit he's so visually distracting.

Occasionally mentions that Scotland voted Remain.

[ronaldo7]

The size of Blackford, clearly not struggling too much to cope with austerity. It's difficult to listen to what he says about Brexit he's so visually distracting.

Try switching over from the BBC, he's perfectly audible on other channels.:wink:

[One Day Soon]

Try switching over from the BBC, he's perfectly audible on other channels.:wink:


He's audible on every channel, but he's not any less corpulent on any of them.

[allmodcons]

He's audible on every channel, but he's not any less corpulent on any of them.

He looks decent when being interviewed by Brian Taylor.

[JeMeSouviens]

Bizarrely, Brexit sec. #3 closed the debate speaking for the extension, commended the motion to the house ... and then voted against it!

[ronaldo7]

He's audible on every channel, but he's not any less corpulent on any of them.

He's fine on my 65 inch widescreen. 😱

[JeMeSouviens]

He looks decent when being interviewed by Brian Taylor.

I’ve been worrying about BT for years, he looks like someone’s inflated him before each broadcast.

[grunt]

The size of Blackford, clearly not struggling too much to cope with austerity. It's difficult to listen to what he says about Brexit he's so visually distracting.

Well I guess this is in line with the general standard of political commentary in the UK just now. Geez.

[Hibbyradge]

Bizarrely, Brexit sec. #3 closed the debate speaking for the extension, commended the motion to the house ... and then voted against it!

:crazy:

[allmodcons]

I’ve been worrying about BT for years, he looks like someone’s inflated him before each broadcast.

Aye, he does look worryingly unhealthy. His heart must take some pounding!

[McSwanky]

The size of Blackford, clearly not struggling too much to cope with austerity. It's difficult to listen to what he says about Brexit he's so visually distracting.I take it you're not fully aware of the reasons behind Mr Blackford's weight, and decided to have a cheap pop at him? Or have I simply stumbled across some harmless locker room banter?

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[hibsbollah]

I take it you're not fully aware of the reasons behind Mr Blackford's weight, and decided to have a cheap pop at him? Or have I simply stumbled across some harmless locker room banter?

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What is the reason? Has he eaten Anna Soubry?

[McSwanky]

What is the reason? Has he eaten Anna Soubry?It's late, and it feels like I'm not in on a joke that you veterans are enjoying. So I think I'll leave it there.

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[Moulin Yarns]

He's audible on every channel, but he's not any less corpulent on any of them.

He is not audible on the BBC News Channel, at least 3 times this week they have stopped the live broadcast fro the house when he spoke to go to interview people in the lobby.

[Hibrandenburg]

He is not audible on the BBC News Channel, at least 3 times this week they have stopped the live broadcast fro the house when he spoke to go to interview people in the lobby.

It's not a BBC conspiracy though, it's simply the UK mainstream media mirroring the UK's political status quo of not being even slightly interested in what Scotland has to say.

[lapsedhibee]

A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain.

“It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”


Just stop with the warlike analogies. Stop talking about Dunkirk, Germans, Churchill, bla bla bla. There's enough actual violence around without all this crap.

[marinello59]

He is not audible on the BBC News Channel, at least 3 times this week they have stopped the live broadcast fro the house when he spoke to go to interview people in the lobby.

Sky News did exactly the same. I don’t think it’s a case of bias against his views, the producers just assume that their viewers have the same lack of interest in what he has to say as they do. It was poor form.
A quick switch to the BBC Parliament channel allowed me to ‘enjoy’ his pearls of wisdom. :greengrin

[Jack]

A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain.

“It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”


Just stop with the warlike analogies. Stop talking about Dunkirk, Germans, Churchill, bla bla bla. There's enough actual violence around without all this crap.

This is not our finest hour.

[Future17]

Sky News did exactly the same. I don’t think it’s a case of bias against his views, the producers just assume that their viewers have the same lack of interest in what he has to say as they do. It was poor form.
A quick switch to the BBC Parliament channel allowed me to ‘enjoy’ his pearls of wisdom. :greengrin

Is that not the definition of bias? :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

so what happens now brexit is definitely happening ? do opposition parties, and brexiteers, now start getting on board with the best way to leave with a deal or are opposition parties still wanting to keep on delaying things hoping for a 'change of mind' that's not now going to happen, e.g 2nd referendum/peoples vote etc ?
:rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

so what happens now brexit is definitely happening ? do opposition parties, and brexiteers, now start getting on board with the best way to leave with a deal or are opposition parties still wanting to keep on delaying things hoping for a 'change of mind' that's not now going to happen, e.g 2nd referendum/peoples vote etc ?
:rolleyes:

It's not.

Almost anything could still happen given the right bizarre set of circumstances. Next decision point is Tuesday when May brings her deal back for MV3. If it fails again, we may be in for MV4 (yes, really). It's only when she's either given up on it (MV38 anyone?) or she's forced to give up on it by mass cabinet resignation (hmmm) or parliament has taken control with something like yesterday's Benn amendment that only just failed that we move onto something else.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It's not.

Almost anything could still happen given the right bizarre set of circumstances. Next decision point is Tuesday when May brings her deal back for MV3. If it fails again, we may be in for MV4 (yes, really). It's only when she's either given up on it (MV38 anyone?) or she's forced to give up on it by mass cabinet resignation (hmmm) or parliament has taken control with something like yesterday's Benn amendment that only just failed that we move onto something else.


aw great, just when i thought we could now move on to the next stage and at least all head in the same direction, thanks for explaining :agree: on to tuesday it is then :eyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

This is brilliant - how to write a Brexiteer Project Fear article:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1106146911025795072.html

:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

so what happens now brexit is definitely happening ? do opposition parties, and brexiteers, now start getting on board with the best way to leave with a deal or are opposition parties still wanting to keep on delaying things hoping for a 'change of mind' that's not now going to happen, e.g 2nd referendum/peoples vote etc ?
:rolleyes:

What happens next is the Tory government (in name only) go grovelling to the DUP and ask them what else they want to ensure they support the meaningless vote number 3 next week.

Honestly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47579033

[Moulin Yarns]

Check out @TheCommonSpace’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/TheCommonSpace/status/1106563604193705985?s=09

[cabbageandribs1875]

What happens next is the Tory government (in name only) go grovelling to the DUP and ask them what else they want to ensure they support the meaningless vote number 3 next week.

Honestly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47579033


what exactly does this mean...


A Labour spokesman said Mr Corbyn and other senior Labour figures had held talks with backbenchers Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson, who have put forward a plan to back Theresa May's Brexit deal, in exchange for a referendum.


am i understanding this right, jeremy corbyn wants a referendum...a referendum on WHAT exactly ? to see if we want to leave or not :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

what exactly does this mean...


A Labour spokesman said Mr Corbyn and other senior Labour figures had held talks with backbenchers Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson, who have put forward a plan to back Theresa May's Brexit deal, in exchange for a referendum.


am i understanding this right, jeremy corbyn wants a referendum...a referendum on WHAT exactly ? to see if we want to leave or not :confused:

The Kyle/Wilson plan says we will allow May's deal to pass the Commons in return for a confirmation referendum with Remain as the default if it loses.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was reminded how we got into this mess


https://www.facebook.com/susan.edwards.5680/videos/10156480566702481/

[jonty]

MarchLeave is off to a cracking start. https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1106843640352202757?s=21

And Farage won’t be completing it.

The mans a grade A weapon.

[Jack Hackett]

I was reminded how we got into this mess


https://www.facebook.com/susan.edwards.5680/videos/10156480566702481/

That is brilliant, if tragic in its consequences. Danny Dyer is spot on

[jonty]

https://twitter.com/pwillo1/status/1106849829106470912?s=21

#GammonBallRun :faf:

[One Day Soon]

He is not audible on the BBC News Channel, at least 3 times this week they have stopped the live broadcast fro the house when he spoke to go to interview people in the lobby.


They should be charging extra on the licence fee for performing that service. Anyway he's irrelevant, everyone knows London SNP take their orders from Sturgeon.

[Jack Hackett]

Just seen Farage interview at the start of his 'Epic' march... where the beeb failed to show just how many were gathered... and nearly fell out of my chair at his assertion that "85% of the voters in the last election voted for parties that backed Leave"... Like they had a realistic choice you utter knob

[wpj]

https://twitter.com/pwillo1/status/1106849829106470912?s=21

#GammonBallRun :faf:

That's brilliant, gullables travels

[James310]

The Kyle Wilson amendment sounds like a sensible way forward. Does it stand a good chance of getting passed?

[Callum_62]

The Kyle Wilson amendment sounds like a sensible way forward.

In that case, no.

[emoji102]


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[James310]

In that case, no.

[emoji102]


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So your suggestion is?

[Just Alf]

So, the chancellor has had a meeting with the DUP to discuss the Brexit deal and negotiate their support.

Now, don't get me wrong, he's been quite clear that of course there's no reason at all to fear that they'll be "paid" for their support its just a coincidence that the "money man" is meeting them for this meeting, just as it was last time when May later manged to give that money tree a wee shake.... Funnily enough after he had a meeting with the DUP, ..... of course, I'm being totally cynical I guess, he also admitted there was an NI spending review coming up in a few weeks time.. Any additional funds would be purely coincidental :agree:


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[Bristolhibby]

The Kyle/Wilson plan says we will allow May's deal to pass the Commons in return for a confirmation referendum with Remain as the default if it loses.

Ohhh, smart

[Callum_62]

So your suggestion is?

My suggestion would be for mps to wake and and start being pragmatic and sensible

Mps was who my dig was at- bit at you


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[Hibbyradge]

Mps was who my dig was at- bit at you




Believe it or not, I understood that!

It took a while, right enough.

[JeMeSouviens]

I like what you did in the opening sentence -droll and clever.

I’m not sure about the rest though, and not sure about my own case if I’m being honest. I think she is hopeless but I also think she has been reactively fashioning a way that keeps her in power and drives towards a Remain or a very, very soft Brexit, but probably a Remain, by buying enough time to build up a public majority to overturn the first Ref, on the basis that leaving is a car crash.

Time will tell. Let’s revisit this in 2029 :greengrin

I know it's not quite 2029, but here's an (albeit 2nd hand) view from the inside. Former Tory MP Matthew Parris interviewed by Der Spiegel:


But then he began hearing from a growing number of officials, lawmakers and ministers the extent to which May had isolated herself, how unreachable she had become, and the levels of frustration among those surrounding her.

"She is mean. She is rude. She is cruel. She is stupid. I have heard that from almost everyone who has dealt with her," Parris says. He said he had never expected this much hatred, "and that is not a word I use lightly."

The worst thing, though, he says, is May's inability to win over others to her position, to compromise and to lead. "It's crazy," says Parris. "That someone like her would end up in a job where the most important thing is to communicate, answer questions, make decisions. That is, I believe, more of a psychological than a political problem."

Full article worth a read - http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/theresa-may-s-brexit-disaster-a-1258101.html

[JeMeSouviens]

In other news, the French Europe minister Nathalie Loiseau has namer her cat "Brexit": it wakes her up howling because it wants out, then she opens the door and it wavers indecisively on the doorstep, so she puts it outside and it gives her a black look. :greengrin

[jonty]

LOL

It was SNP policy to freeze council tax but that never happened, it was SNP policy to reduce class room sizes that never happened, it was Lib Dems policy not to introduce tuition fees and guess what that never happened.

The above were in manifestos and were still broken so I don't think a speech translates into any type of agreement or even a binding commitment to hold the referendum.

I never knew you held Cameron and what he said in such high regard.


I'm pretty sure it did. :greengrin

They've only just lifted the cap after about 10 years and the bands haven't gone up as much as they would have done had there been no freeze.

Doing some paper (now the 19/20 rates are out), and found, that despite the BBC article claiming a 3% freeze in 17/18 for Fife, ours has jumped 21% (17/18)
18/19 and 19/20 have gone up 3% each year.
Previous years the CT was frozen but the water and sewage still was at 0% (12/13) 2.77% (13/14) and around 1.57 in subsequent years.

[lapsedhibee]

A fitba analogy sneaks into Brexit coverage:

Heading up the march was Nigel Farage, described by an acolyte as a great statesman and fantastic leader. Farage is a man who has seven times failed to be elected to parliament and resigned and then unresigned as leader of a political party numerous times. So you might say that Farage is a great statesman and a fantastic leader in the same way former footballer Richard Dunne, who holds the record for the most own goals ever scored in the Premier League, was a great marksman and a fantastic finisher.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking like no MV3 this week. May expected to ask EU for delay later this week and for it to be long to enough try to frighten the DUP/ERG into passing her deal instead.

[BroxburnHibee]

Looking like no MV3 this week. May expected to ask EU for delay later this week and for it to be long to enough try to frighten the DUP/ERG into passing her deal instead.

Yep when all else fails go for blackmail.

[hibsbollah]

A fitba analogy sneaks into Brexit coverage:

Heading up the march was Nigel Farage, described by an acolyte as a great statesman and fantastic leader. Farage is a man who has seven times failed to be elected to parliament and resigned and then unresigned as leader of a political party numerous times. So you might say that Farage is a great statesman and a fantastic leader in the same way former footballer Richard Dunne, who holds the record for the most own goals ever scored in the Premier League, was a great marksman and a fantastic finisher.

So you might say that Farage is a great statesman and a fantastic leader in the same way former Hibs footballer Alan O'Brien, who holds the record for the most number of runs up the left wing without contributing anything of note, was the reborn spirit of George Best.

[grunt]

Bercow making a statement to the House ...

[marinello59]

It looks like the Goverment can’t take May’s deal back to the house.

[Jack Hackett]

A fitba analogy sneaks into Brexit coverage:

Heading up the march was Nigel Farage, described by an acolyte as a great statesman and fantastic leader. Farage is a man who has seven times failed to be elected to parliament and resigned and then unresigned as leader of a political party numerous times. So you might say that Farage is a great statesman and a fantastic leader in the same way former footballer Richard Dunne, who holds the record for the most own goals ever scored in the Premier League, was a great marksman and a fantastic finisher.

Could have used Levain instead of Dunne to make it more topical.

[BroxburnHibee]

Wont allow another vote on the same deal

[JeMeSouviens]

It looks like the Goverment can’t take May’s deal back to the house.

OOOOOOOHHHHH!!!!

Aw-duh Aw-duh!

:wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Could have used Levain instead of Dunne to make it more topical.

Don't let Ian Blackford hear that suggestion or he'll be complaining of anti-Scottish bias again. And again. And again.

[Callum_62]

So - what now?


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[marinello59]

So - what now?


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Who knows? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

He said MV2 was ok because of new supporting documents so I guess if they just attach a new opinion from Rumpole they'll be good to go?

[BroxburnHibee]

He said MV2 was ok because of new supporting documents so I guess if they just attach a new opinion from Rumpole they'll be good to go?

I doubt that would be enough.

[marinello59]

He said MV2 was ok because of new supporting documents so I guess if they just attach a new opinion from Rumpole they'll be good to go?

I think it will need something more from the EU and they seem to have given as much as they are going to give.

[Callum_62]

Vote on same deal can be held next session - which stars in May....


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[JeMeSouviens]

I doubt that would be enough.


I think it will need something more from the EU and they seem to have given as much as they are going to give.

Yep, Bercow has confirmed as much while answering points of order. May will be RAGING! :aok:

[Jack Hackett]

Vote on same deal can be held next session - which stars in May....


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To be used as an excuse... sorry, justification, for a short extension to A50

[GlesgaeHibby]

So - what now?


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Extension or crash out with no deal.

[James310]

Yep, Bercow has confirmed as much while answering points of order. May will be RAGING! :aok:

The flip side of this decision is that we voted last week to not have a second referendum, so based on that we can't have another vote on a second referendum unless something substantially changes.

[BroxburnHibee]

Extension or crash out with no deal.

Parliament has already said no deal. If she tried to do that then a no confidence vote which she would definitely lose would be held immediately. Then we're into a GE and article 50 probably postponed indefinitely.

[BroxburnHibee]

The flip side of this decision is that we voted last week to not have a second referendum, so based on that we can't have another vote on a second referendum unless something substantially changes.

Thing is if she offered her deal with a ratification 'People's Vote' then this would pass no problem.

What's she scared of?

[JeMeSouviens]

Thing is if she offered her deal with a ratification 'People's Vote' then this would pass no problem.

What's she scared of?

The split in the Tory party becoming permanent.

[lapsedhibee]

Parliament has already said no deal. If she tried to do that then a no confidence vote which she would definitely lose would be held immediately. Then we're into a GE and article 50 probably postponed indefinitely.
Why? Tories + DUP still have a majority.

[BroxburnHibee]

Why? Tories + DUP still have a majority.

Plenty Tories wont allow no deal.

[lapsedhibee]

Plenty Tories wont allow no deal.

They might if the alternative is Jeremy Corbyn.

[Ozyhibby]

They might if the alternative is Jeremy Corbyn.

They won’t believe Corbyn will win anyway.


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[Northernhibee]

The flip side of this decision is that we voted last week to not have a second referendum, so based on that we can't have another vote on a second referendum unless something substantially changes.
General election very soon.

[lapsedhibee]

Parliament has already said no deal. If she tried to do that then a no confidence vote which she would definitely lose would be held immediately. Then we're into a GE and article 50 probably postponed indefinitely.
Would it have to be substantially different from the one which has already been proposed this Parliament?

[Callum_62]

Would it have to be substantially different from the one which has already been proposed this Parliament?

That was the tories to there leader - not the house to the govt


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[Ozyhibby]

Handy flow chart for what happens next.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190318/3514e0dfc62d2094c54f9523beb77769.jpg


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[lapsedhibee]

That was the tories to there leader - not the house to the govt


No, Jezza already proposed a vote of no confidence in the government. (16 Jan, lost 325-306.)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Leaders of Lib-Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP were meant to meet Corbyn this afternoon, unfortunately he didn't turn up....although it was him that arranged the meeting :rolleyes:

new meeting fixed for tomorrow

[cabbageandribs1875]

Theresa May will tell Conservative MPs this week to back her or risk never leaving the EU, after she was warned that if her Brexit deal falls, parliament would have the power to delay the UK’s departure indefinitely.



exactly what she wants :wink: has she even bothered mentioning "the democratic vote" for several days now.

[McSwanky]

So what I'm struggling to find an answer to is this...

Did Bercow make today's decision alone? Or does he have a bunch of parliamentary experts who advise him?

I'm thinking it must surely be the latter, but he's being personally demonised by the usual suspects in the press.

Anybody know?

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[James310]

Bercow seems to be a hero on both sides of the Brexit divide but one side must have calculated it wrong.

The Brexiteer mob seem to think no deal Brexit is more likely now as if no MV3 comes forward the law currently states we leave on 29th March.

The Remain mob seem to think 'something' else will now happen that MV3 is off the table. I assume that something is a long extension to A50, but that's yet to be seen.

I can't decide if it's a good thing or bad thing. Ultimately if it puts off Brexit then a good thing, but unsure what this 'something' is going to be.

[JeMeSouviens]

So what I'm struggling to find an answer to is this...

Did Bercow make today's decision alone? Or does he have a bunch of parliamentary experts who advise him?

I'm thinking it must surely be the latter, but he's being personally demonised by the usual suspects in the press.

Anybody know?

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He has a team of parliamentary clerks that work for him but he isn’t afraid to go against conventions when he feels like it. Ultimately he usually goes for the option that gives parliament the biggest say over the government.

[Tornadoes70]

Bercow seems to be a hero on both sides of the Brexit divide but one side must have calculated it wrong.

The Brexiteer mob seem to think no deal Brexit is more likely now as if no MV3 comes forward the law currently states we leave on 29th March.

The Remain mob seem to think 'something' else will now happen that MV3 is off the table. I assume that something is a long extension to A50, but that's yet to be seen.

I can't decide if it's a good thing or bad thing. Ultimately if it puts off Brexit then a good thing, but unsure what this 'something' is going to be.

I would think its definitely going to be one of they two and wouldn't like to hazard a guess at either no deal or extension because that is what it has now become a straight choice of.

Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have been superb all the way down the line on brexit while the others have very selfishly played party politics as per.

[Callum_62]

I would think its definitely going to be one of they two and wouldn't like to hazard a guess at either no deal or extension because that is what it has now become a straight choice of.

Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have been superb all the way down the line on brexit while the others have very selfishly played party politics as per.

What exactly does Jermy Corbyn want - I haven’t a clue. I wouldnt class that as “superb” 10 days before we leave with no deal


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[Just Alf]

This Bercow thing, in the lead up to meaningful vote 2, there was a lot of talk about how it had to be different to MV1 to get past parliamentary rules, even yesterday morning there was talk about May pulling the vote because as it stands she can't change it enough then Bercow comes out and confirms all of the above stating its against the rules to keep bringing the same thing back.... Then all hell let's loose and people start blaming Bercow for it... Surely the blame lies with the government not willing/to scared to make a change to comply with the rules?

Politics eh!


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[marinello59]

I would think its definitely going to be one of they two and wouldn't like to hazard a guess at either no deal or extension because that is what it has now become a straight choice of.

Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have been superb all the way down the line on brexit while the others have very selfishly played party politics as per.

Corbyn has been all over the place when it comes to Brexit. As for Richard Leonard, what has he said or done that could be classed as superb? He is practically invisible.

[stokesmessiah]

I would think its definitely going to be one of they two and wouldn't like to hazard a guess at either no deal or extension because that is what it has now become a straight choice of.

Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have been superb all the way down the line on brexit while the others have very selfishly played party politics as per.

I am assuming this is sarcasm ?

[Hibrandenburg]

I am assuming this is sarcasm ?

I'm assuming it's drink fuelled trolling as usual.

[Hibrandenburg]

Barnier confirming the the EU preparations for no deal are as good as ready and contingency plans for all eventualities are almost complete. Either the UK has completely over played it's hand or that's some bluff on Barnier's part.

[JeMeSouviens]

Today's Cabinet leaks-

via Faisal Islam, Sky pol ed:


several in Cabinet want any extension to be short (till June 30th) then out No Deal...

But on other side similar number want long extension then as an option or even the new default.

PM did not conclude where the consensus was. Deciding one way or other wd mean resignations

via Sam Coates of the Times:


“She sat their like a nodding dog, not making a proper decision. She should be leading.”

Reflecting on cabinet, a source said: “Where’s the strategy. It feels like the last days of Rome.”

[Callum_62]

Who in there right mind would want a no deal

They shouldn’t be openly pursuing that after the previous votes either


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[JeMeSouviens]

Who in there right mind would want a no deal

They shouldn’t be openly pursuing that after the previous votes either


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Leadsom, Fox, Grayling, Mordaunt, ... oh yeah, who in their *right* mind? :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

Who in there right mind would want a no deal

They shouldn’t be openly pursuing that after the previous votes either


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When negotiating with the EU who in their right mind would want to take no deal off the table? Unless of course you are a remainer and or want to stop brexit completely.

I suspect most want a deal of sorts but by taking no deal off the table it cuts the baws of the UK.

But I think that's what most pro EU people want. Too hell with the democratic vote just stop brexit.

[Callum_62]

When negotiating with the EU who in their right mind would want to take no deal off the table? Unless of course you are a remainer and or want to stop brexit completely.

I suspect most want a deal of sorts but by taking no deal off the table it cuts the baws of the UK.

But I think that's what most pro EU people want. Too hell with the democratic vote just stop brexit.

But what else was the EU going to give anyway?

We are ten days away from when we decided we should leave - we shouldn’t even be trying to negotiate at this point


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[JeMeSouviens]

When negotiating with the EU who in their right mind would want to take no deal off the table? Unless of course you are a remainer and or want to stop brexit completely.

I suspect most want a deal of sorts but by taking no deal off the table it cuts the baws of the UK.

But I think that's what most pro EU people want. Too hell with the democratic vote just stop brexit.

Keeping no deal is **** all to do with negotiations with the EU. As far as they’re concerned negotiations are finished and anyway they know the UK is much less prepared than they are.

Keeping no deal is to frighten the public and enough Labour MPs to get Tory brexit through.

[Slavers]

But what else was the EU going to give anyway?

We are ten days away from when we decided we should leave - we shouldn’t even be trying to negotiate at this point


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Merkel has said she will fight tooth and nail to avoid no deal brexit. That tells you there is room for compromise.

[Slavers]

Keeping no deal is **** all to do with negotiations with the EU. As far as they’re concerned negotiations are finished and anyway they know the UK is much less prepared than they are.

Keeping no deal is to frighten the public and enough Labour MPs to get Tory brexit through.

With respect your a hard-core remainer and anti UK your not exactly balanced in your assessment.

[Callum_62]

Merkel has said she will fight tooth and nail to avoid no deal brexit. That tells you there is room for compromise.

Leaving with a deal is not only the best of a bad idea - its what we were promised years ago

Surley u have to blame the uk gov for not only triggering article 50 with absolutely no position and taking the whole time internally trying to agree what brexit really should be - we are 10 days away and they still havnt tried to get a consensus

Thats none of the EUs doing


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[lapsedhibee]

With respect your a hard-core remainer and anti UK your not exactly balanced in your assessment.
:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/63f66710b1f99a5a76deaa458cdef1e5.jpg
Yet another big day ahead?


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[Mr Grieves]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/63f66710b1f99a5a76deaa458cdef1e5.jpg
Yet another big day ahead?


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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47636011

May's requesting a short extension. 3 years into this **** show, achieving nothing, and she thinks.it can be sorted with an extra 3 months. Or is it just some extra time to prepare for no deal?

[Callum_62]

Defeated twice with historically large majorities - she thinks scaring folk into voting for it is the best way forward for the UK

Absolutely pathetic

The standard of politicians here the UK is an embarrassment, it really is

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47636011

May's requesting a short extension. 3 years into this **** show, achieving nothing, and she thinks.it can be sorted with an extra 3 months. Or is it just some extra time to prepare for no deal?

She's asking for a short extension purely because cabinet ministers said they would resign if she asked for a long extension. As ever, all about keeping the Tory party 'together' :faf: and **** everyone else.

[JeMeSouviens]

With respect your a hard-core remainer and anti UK your not exactly balanced in your assessment.

I’m the Brussells elite and have the waffle to prove it :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

She's asking for a short extension purely because cabinet ministers said they would resign if she asked for a long extension. As ever, all about keeping the Tory party 'together' :faf: and **** everyone else.

Yep. We’re heading for no deal unless the soft side of the cabinet resigns and sides with the opposition. Don’t think they have the balls.

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour MP Alison McGovern tables emergency Brexit debate. Another attempt for parliament to take control of the process. Will Tory remainers step up to the plate? Will the rump of Labour Brexiteers sabotage it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yep. We’re heading for no deal unless the soft side of the cabinet resigns and sides with the opposition. Don’t think they have the balls.

:agree:

No deal or no Brexit are the most likely with no deal just edging it at the moment.

1. May's deal is dead and any other deal won't be an improvement on what she's negotiated and therefore can't be acceptable to parliament. The EU are also unlikely to offer more concessions.

2. A 2nd referendum would almost definitely see a vote for remain because the leave vote would be divided amongst the different leave options that would have to be on the ballot paper. However it would mean that many Mps would have to go against what their constituents voted for and would be political suicide.

3. New elections could see the Tories disintegrate into different factions and there's no way the government would allow that to happen and even if it did I can't see the electorate voting for Corbyn.

4. No deal is the default option should all of the above fail and the one that the Tories are most able to live with. "No deal is better than a bad deal".

[JeMeSouviens]

Briefing note provided before last week's vote. MPs were clearly told if no deal agreed by 20 March then govt would seek longer extension. Yet again, May can't be trusted.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2Fl0fwX4AAkeox.jpg

[Callum_62]

Briefing note provided before last week's vote. MPs were clearly told if no deal agreed by 20 March then govt would seek longer extension. Yet again, May can't be trusted.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2Fl0fwX4AAkeox.jpg

That is ridiculous

I await Kay Burley et all getting stuck into the government on this point

[emoji102]

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[JeMeSouviens]

Labour MP Alison McGovern tables emergency Brexit debate. Another attempt for parliament to take control of the process. Will Tory remainers step up to the plate? Will the rump of Labour Brexiteers sabotage it?

I did actually mean Lab backbench Brexiteers - but seemingly Corbyn has already torpedoed it. Labour won't support a long extension. :rolleyes:

I think I'm going to spend the rest of today sobbing in a dark corner.

[JeMeSouviens]

Now conflicting reports and Labour position sounding "fluid" :rolleyes:

Scotsman WM correspondent:


Labour source described the internal dynamic on Brexit to me like this: "It's Keir Starmer and John McDonnell v Jeremy Corbyn and Seumas Milne. We're trying to gently maneuver things so they [Corbyn & Milne] become irrelevant and their position [on a second EU ref] is untenable"

[Callum_62]

Corbyns whole position should be untenable

Hes the most flippy floppiest “leader” ive ever seen


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[ballengeich]

:agree:


2. A 2nd referendum would almost definitely see a vote for remain because the leave vote would be divided amongst the different leave options that would have to be on the ballot paper. However it would mean that many Mps would have to go against what their constituents voted for and would be political suicide.



The realistic options are May's deal, no deal and remain. You could have a ballot where you rank your preferences in order and the option with the lowest vote is eliminated on each count and the vote transferred to the next choice. Alternatively you could ask for approval for May's deal followed up by a choice between no deal and remain which would only counted if May's deal doesn't get 50% + 1.

Recent opinion polls indicate that there would now be a majority for remain. It astonishes me that none of the MPs who favour remaining are using this to suggest that far from being democratic, implementing the referendum result may now be against the wishes of the population and we should be asked again what we now want.

[JeMeSouviens]

The realistic options are May's deal, no deal and remain. You could have a ballot where you rank your preferences in order and the option with the lowest vote is eliminated on each count and the vote transferred to the next choice. Alternatively you could ask for approval for May's deal followed up by a choice between no deal and remain which would only counted if May's deal doesn't get 50% + 1.

Recent opinion polls indicate that there would now be a majority for remain. It astonishes me that none of the MPs who favour remaining are using this to suggest that far from being democratic, implementing the referendum result may now be against the wishes of the population and we should be asked again what we now want.

The Brexit side have got to get themselves together and propose 1 deliverable outcome: May's deal, no deal, Norway, whatever and then pit that against the status quo. I think that's the only way such a ref can work, as the last 3 years have demonstrated.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/16f76a3a2c2696f68f5d464852ff76db.jpg


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[hibsbollah]

This PMQs is astonishing. Everything thats she's saying is for the benefit of the ERG. The most proBrexit PMQs she's conducted so far from what Im hearing. Here comes Blackford...
Thumps some tubs.
ERG Peter Bone attacks May, despite the earlier speech being solely for his mates' benefit.

[Lendo]

Kay Burley doubling down on her car crash from yesterday, telling Scotland to enjoy the Euro. Embarrassing stuff.

[JeMeSouviens]

Eu commission says short delay only possible until May 22nd.

[JeMeSouviens]

Kay Burley doubling down on her car crash from yesterday, telling Scotland to enjoy the Euro. Embarrassing stuff.

To be fair, her ignorance is hardly unique. Lots of people who actually know something about Scottish politics regularly trot out the Euro myth. Expecting a WM based journo to know better is a clear stretch too far. And she'll no doubt have had to endure a barrage of counterproductive twitter abuse for getting it wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

Accusing Blackford of "mansplaining" for answering her question seemed a bit bizarre though.

[GlesgaeHibby]

ERG pulling all the strings just now - terrifying.

[weecounty hibby]

ERG pulling all the strings just now - terrifying.

Sadly the country (UK) is now at the mercy of the most right wingiest bunch of right wingers, ERG, DUP, 1922 committee. If we don't want to have to follow that lead we (Scotland) will have another choice. Let's hope we make the right decision next time.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Sadly the country (UK) is now at the mercy of the most right wingiest bunch of right wingers, ERG, DUP, 1922 committee. If we don't want to have to follow that lead we (Scotland) will have another choice. Let's hope we make the right decision next time.

If Scotland is faced with the choice of the ERG wet dream of a de-regulated UK thanks to a no-deal Brexit OR independence, and we fail to take it we'll never be independent.

As an long-standing supporter of independence, I do feel sorry for many friends down in England who will have to suffer the consequences of these right wing nutjobs, without the escape route of independence available to them.

[ronaldo7]

Macron says, non.

He'll vote against any extension. Enough is enough.

[James310]

Time to revoke Article 50?

The house voted for not implementing a no deal Brexit so that looks like the remaining option now?

Total shambles.

[weecounty hibby]

Time to revoke Article 50?

The house voted for not implementing a no deal Brexit so that looks like the remaining option now?

Total shambles.
It's been a shambles since the Tories put it in their manifesto. Badly planned, badly executed, no plan B, no plan A actually, folk running for cover who had been agitating for Brexit when it was through, lies and more lies, DUP nutters getting billions, and on and on and on

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/16f76a3a2c2696f68f5d464852ff76db.jpg


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Will be interesting to see the turn out this Saturday for the PV march. 700k last time. Maybe more this time?

[Jack]

If Scotland is faced with the choice of the ERG wet dream of a de-regulated UK thanks to a no-deal Brexit OR independence, and we fail to take it we'll never be independent.

As an long-standing supporter of independence, I do feel sorry for many friends down in England who will have to suffer the consequences of these right wing nutjobs, without the escape route of independence available to them.

Invite them up. Scotland is a welcoming, friendly place 😁

[7 Up]

What a national humiliation. May, Corbyn, Tories, Labour, the media; are all culpable to some degree.

[jonty]

I thought parliament ruled out a no-deal Brexit?

[lapsedhibee]

I thought parliament ruled out a no-deal Brexit?

No, they just voted in favour of ruling it out.

[BroxburnHibee]

So Tusk has now said her deal or no deal


BOOM!!!!

[lapsedhibee]

So Tusk has now said her deal or no deal

Not necessarily. He's said no short delay unless her deal passes. Hasn't said anything about the possibility of a long delay if it fails.

[BroxburnHibee]

Not necessarily. He's said no short delay unless her deal passes. Hasn't said anything about the possibility of a long delay if it fails.

She's making a statement later. No doubt Tusk has said exactly what she was looking for so she can now say a new vote (if Bercow allows it) means her deal or no deal.

[Ozyhibby]

Not necessarily. He's said no short delay unless her deal passes. Hasn't said anything about the possibility of a long delay if it fails.

And by not saying anything he is allowing her to blackmail MP’s with her deal or no deal.


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[lapsedhibee]

She's making a statement later. No doubt Tusk has said exactly what she was looking for so she can now say a new vote (if Bercow allows it) means her deal or no deal.

Agree that's how she'll present it, but don't think it'll help her much unless Tusk specifically rules out no delay of any sort.

[Callum_62]

So we are left with a deal defeated by historic amounts

Or a no deal which the governments own analysis suggests would be very bad economically

Very well handled this has been


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[SHODAN]

A government playing chicken with its own parliament and the EU. I'm ****ing fed up.

[jonty]

So we are left with a deal defeated by historic amounts

Or a no deal which the governments own analysis suggests would be very bad economically

Very well handled this has been


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Enter stage left - Bercow on a unicorn and suggests the house takes control of the process and revokes article 50.

[Callum_62]

Whats all the talk about bringing her deal back

I thought Bercow kaiboshed that as it stands?


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[Tornadoes70]

Everyone's talking about how badly the tories have messed up brexit. Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard played their cards close to their chest rightly in my opinion while the snp have been shown up that they have only ever been interested in party politicking their second referendum agenda. Labour are gaining momentum polling wise and have turned the corner after amending and restyling the party by clearing out as many blairites as possible among other things.

[marinello59]

Everyone's talking about how badly the tories have messed up brexit. Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard played their cards close to their chest rightly in my opinion while the snp have been shown up that they have only ever been interested in party politicking their second referendum agenda. Labour are gaining momentum polling wise and have turned the corner after amending and restyling the party by clearing out as many blairites as possible among other things.

It’s looking likely that it will be Labour MPs who give May the votes she needs to get her deal passed. That will not be forgotten in Scotland for a long time.

[Callum_62]

Everyone's talking about how badly the tories have messed up brexit. Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard played their cards close to their chest rightly in my opinion while the snp have been shown up that they have only ever been interested in party politicking their second referendum agenda. Labour are gaining momentum polling wise and have turned the corner after amending and restyling the party by clearing out as many blairites as possible among other things.

Explain that SNP party politicking? Ive heard a consistent message which backs the people they are meant to serve


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/639d5dcd2fd95a989a30db5a9cf3b79b.jpg

And people say brexit is divisive?[emoji23]


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[Tornadoes70]

Explain that SNP party politicking? Ive heard a consistent message which backs the people they are meant to serve


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Their 'consistent message' being that of 'Scotland won't be taken out of the EU against its will' when it was a UK wide brexit vote was unambiguously party politicking.

Mon Labour.

[SHODAN]

It looks as though if May's deal is rejected she'll resign, which'll leave an interim Prime Minister to request a long extension and a restart of the whole process.

[The Modfather]

Their 'consistent message' being that of 'Scotland won't be taken out of the EU against its will' when it was a UK wide brexit vote was unambiguously party politicking.

Mon Labour.

Ignsh talking about trolling, that did make me chuckle 😀

[Tornadoes70]

It’s looking likely that it will be Labour MPs who give May the votes she needs to get her deal passed. That will not be forgotten in Scotland for a long time.

I think most folk would just be delighted something had finally broken the impasse if that were to occur to be fair. Folk including many up here in Scotland are absolutely fed up to the back teeth of brexit with its unwelcome party politicking and would very probably heavily welcome any brexit breakthrough.

[James310]

Their 'consistent message' being that of 'Scotland won't be taken out of the EU against its will' when it was a UK wide brexit vote was unambiguously party politicking.

Mon Labour.

Well they need to make their move soon if they won't let Scotland be taken out the EU. What's their plan?

[weecounty hibby]

Their 'consistent message' being that of 'Scotland won't be taken out of the EU against its will' when it was a UK wide brexit vote was unambiguously party politicking.

Mon Labour.
WTF are you on about? You make about as much sense as Jeremy and Richard. Labour have been pathetic and are trying to plan their strategy to line up with whatever they think is the best route for Labour not for the UK. No one knows from one vote to the next how Jeremy will vote or whip his party to vote.
Edit. I see you edited your post that I was trying to quote. You managed to take out most of the utter rambling nonsense before I could quote it

[SHODAN]

I think most folk would just be delighted something had finally broken the impasse if that were to occur to be fair. Folk including many up here in Scotland are absolutely fed up to the back teeth of brexit with its unwelcome party politicking and would very probably heavily welcome any brexit breakthrough.

Yes, we would absolutely welcome the resolution of something 62% of us voted to reject.

[Tornadoes70]

WTF are you on about? You make about as much sense as Jeremy and Richard. Labour have been pathetic and are trying to plan their strategy to line up with whatever they think is the best route for Labour not for the UK. No one knows from one vote to the next how Jeremy will vote or whip his party to vote.
Edit. I see you edited your post that I was trying to quote. You managed to take out most of the utter rambling nonsense before I could quote it

:na na:

[Tornadoes70]

Yes, we would absolutely welcome the resolution of something 62% of us voted to reject.

There's that party politicking again. It was a UK wide vote and well you know it.

[James310]

Does voting down a second referendum last week not look like a very foolish decision now. Apparently the People's Vote group were happy it was not voted through as 'now was not the time'. So when is the time?

[Ozyhibby]

Does voting down a second referendum last week not look like a very foolish decision now. Apparently the People's Vote group were happy it was not voted through as 'now was not the time'. So when is the time?

Peoples vote group is a joke.


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[PeeJay]

Looks like hard Brexit for the UK - Speaker Bercow says the House cannot vote on the deal again, Tusk says it must accept the deal to gain a short extension ... looks like the UK has just hit the wall, it's all over guys ... 9 days and you are out! Sorry to see you go ... or have I got this all wrong? :confused:

[James310]

Fife Hibee could be right after all. I blame the Rothchilds.

[Callum_62]

Looks like hard Brexit for the UK - Speaker Bercow says the House cannot vote on the deal again, Tusk says it must accept the deal to gain a short extension ... looks like the UK has just hit the wall, it's all over guys ... 9 days and you are out! Sorry to see you go ... or have I got this all wrong? :confused:

Tusk didnt say what happens if they vote down the deal

Altho i dunno why they are all talking about voting on it after Bercows ruling


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[lapsedhibee]

Looks like hard Brexit for the UK - Speaker Bercow says the House cannot vote on the deal again, Tusk says it must accept the deal to gain a short extension ... looks like the UK has just hit the wall, it's all over guys ... 9 days and you are out! Sorry to see you go ... or have I got this all wrong? :confused:

Long extension not yet ruled out by anyone.

Bercow allows MV3, it fails, EU to avoid No Deal crashout offers long extension, May accepts it and resigns, Tories vote in Boris.

Sorted! :shocked:

[Tornadoes70]

Fife Hibee could be right after all. I blame the Rothchilds.

Pragmatically a hard brexit could open the door for a return to real Labour socialism once we get the tories out. It could easily present real opportunity to reverse privatisation and for the state to renationalise failing uber capitalist industries and services.

[James310]

Dominic Grieve gave a great speech earlier. He has been friends with May for many years but said he could of wept when he heard her at the dispatch box earlier seeing what she had reduced herself to.

[Callum_62]

There's that party politicking again. It was a UK wide vote and well you know it.

The snp have maintained a need for CU membership simply because it is in the people they serves interest

That leaderships


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[weecounty hibby]

Pragmatically a hard brexit could open the door for a return to real Labour socialism once we get the tories out. It could easily present real opportunity to reverse privatisation and for the state to renationalise failing uber capitalist industries and services.
Just how deluded or brainwashed are you? That will never happen. Ever. No matter how much you think that there is a socialist utopia out there it just won't happen. Too many
"working class" people with mortgages, two cars, two holidays a year and a share portfolio to look after. As much as I detested Margaret Thatcher she was a shrewd operator and we are still living in a system that she designed to ensure that things like the miners strike, Wapping etc would never happen again. Similarly with nationalising industry. Firstly what industry? Secondly these industries were de-nationalised due to the poor performance and government bail outs. We can all get a bit misty eyed for the sixties and seventies but it wasn't all roses back then either.

[Tornadoes70]

The snp have maintained a need for CU membership simply because it is in the people they serves interest

That leaderships


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A fair point well put many will agree with when supporting eu membership is framed as simply that, however, we have to remember brexit was a uk wide vote and accept the majority's wishes.

[Ozyhibby]

Pragmatically a hard brexit could open the door for a return to real Labour socialism once we get the tories out. It could easily present real opportunity to reverse privatisation and for the state to renationalise failing uber capitalist industries and services.

Failing capitalist industries and services?


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[Ozyhibby]

Just how deluded or brainwashed are you? That will never happen. Ever. No matter how much you think that there is a socialist utopia out there it just won't happen. Too many
"working class" people with mortgages, two cars, two holidays a year and a share portfolio to look after. As much as I detested Margaret Thatcher she was a shrewd operator and we are still living in a system that she designed to ensure that things like the miners strike, Wapping etc would never happen again. Similarly with nationalising industry. Firstly what industry? Secondly these industries were de-nationalised due to the poor performance and government bail outs. We can all get a bit misty eyed for the sixties and seventies but it wasn't all roses back then either.

It wasn’t roses at all. We only had electricity 3 days a week. We were the sick man of Europe.


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[Bristolhibby]

Pragmatically a hard brexit could open the door for a return to real Labour socialism once we get the tories out. It could easily present real opportunity to reverse privatisation and for the state to renationalise failing uber capitalist industries and services.

This is true “ruling over the ashes” type pie in the sky.

Things have got to be terrible before they get better. How about they just don’t get even ****ter in the first place?

**** Corbyn if that’s his plan. And I say that as someone who has voted Labour in every European election to date (those being the only elections that my Labour vote has counted as I live in a Tory v Lib Dem battleground seat).

[PeeJay]

Long extension not yet ruled out by anyone.

Bercow allows MV3, it fails, EU to avoid No Deal crashout offers long extension, May accepts it and resigns, Tories vote in Boris.

Sorted! :shocked:

That doesn't really seem realistic if the deal is rejected - pretty sure there will not be a "long extension" for the simple reason the EU want the UK out before the EU elections: it's now really down to accept the deal or leave ... no deal is bad for the UK and for the EU, but it is something we in the EU can deal with - we have to end this nonsense.

[weecounty hibby]

It wasn’t roses at all. We only had electricity 3 days a week. We were the sick man of Europe.


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I know that. It seems others hark back to those days though

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1108418852684288000?s=21

Dominic Grieves statement


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[Colr]

Any chance of Scotland invading England to restore order?

[lapsedhibee]

That doesn't really seem realistic if the deal is rejected - pretty sure there will not be a "long extension" for the simple reason the EU want the UK out before the EU elections: it's now really down to accept the deal or leave ... no deal is bad for the UK and for the EU, but it is something we in the EU can deal with - we have to end this nonsense.

Ach, only trying to show a wee bitty hope in the madness's midst. :wink:

[James310]

Jeremy Corbyn walks away in disgust and refuses to meet the PM as he sees a couple of members of the Independance Party there as well.

So much for putting aside party politics for the national interest. Childish and juvenile behaviour.

[weecounty hibby]

Jeremy Corbyn walks away in disgust and refuses to meet the PM as he sees a couple of members of the Independance Party there as well.

So much for putting aside party politics for the national interest. Childish and juvenile behaviour.
No, no, no. You've got that wrong Jeremy is playing it well and has a terrific strategy and is just waiting on his chance to lead us all to the promised land. Tornadoes70 will be along shortly to tell us that Jeremy and Richard are the greatest leaders we could ever wish for. Pathetic doesn't begin to describe him and his "leadership"

[Ozyhibby]

Jeremy Corbyn walks away in disgust and refuses to meet the PM as he sees a couple of members of the Independance Party there as well.

So much for putting aside party politics for the national interest. Childish and juvenile behaviour.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/d175e5a951b8d0bf7612db74eabf18c5.jpg



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[Tornadoes70]

Jeremy Corbyn walks away in disgust and refuses to meet the PM as he sees a couple of members of the Independance Party there as well.

So much for putting aside party politics for the national interest. Childish and juvenile behaviour.

Jeremy had every right to walk out after antagonist past party members were invited to sit in that is being cited as the reason. Absolutely disgraceful from may, cable, dup, blackford etc to expect Jeremy to sit in with traitor blairist umunna.

Can't blame Jeremy for that for goodness sake.

[Callum_62]

What, he cant talk when someone he disagrees with is present?

Yeah, terrific leadership


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[Kato]

Pragmatically a hard brexit could open the door for a return to real Labour socialism once we get the tories out. It could easily present real opportunity to reverse privatisation and for the state to renationalise failing uber capitalist industries and services.

Not going to happen. Post any Brexit the right-wing of the Tory party will be in charge. I don't why as they surely have revealed themselves as grasping psychic vampires but that's who will be in charge.

[Don Giovanni]

Jeremy had every right to walk out after antagonist past party members were invited to sit in that is being cited as the reason. Absolutely disgraceful from may, cable, dup, blackford etc to expect Jeremy to sit in with traitor blairist umunna.

Can't blame Jeremy for that for goodness sake.

The government, and indeed the country, is in a political crisis and instead of joining cross party talks to find a way forward the leader of the opposition walks away in a huff.

That's not leadership in my book. Truely pathetic stuff from Corbyn to put a personal disagreement ahead of the national interest.

[weecounty hibby]

Jeremy had every right to walk out after antagonist past party members were invited to sit in that is being cited as the reason. Absolutely disgraceful from may, cable, dup, blackford etc to expect Jeremy to sit in with traitor blairist umunna.

Can't blame Jeremy for that for goodness sake.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Tornadoes/Ignsh you really are pretty special. Totally brainwashed and can see no wrong in anything that Corbyn does. He had the opportunity to debate with party leaders, including the "leader" of the new group in parliament and don't take it cos he went in the huff. That is the long and the short of it. In the huff!! Toys out the pram. Dummy spat! What a leader!!

[McD]

Jeremy had every right to walk out after antagonist past party members were invited to sit in that is being cited as the reason. Absolutely disgraceful from may, cable, dup, blackford etc to expect Jeremy to sit in with traitor blairist umunna.

Can't blame Jeremy for that for goodness sake.


You really are blind to truth and common sense


just so we’re clear, you’ve told us that Corbyn is this incredible leader... yet because there’s someone he doesn’t like he refuses to take part in talks. Can’t wait to see this idiot if he ever gets into power, he'll come up with some great trade agreements, as long as he’s chums with the people on the other side of the table. Or PMQs, will he take a huff if another MP dares to ask him a question?

[Tornadoes70]

What, he cant talk when someone he disagrees with is present?

Yeah, terrific leadership


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Hardly just 'someone he disagrees with'

Well done Jeremy, a principled decent man and politician who very probably wouldn't have invited lets say soubry knowing it would noise up the tories if he had been chairing the meeting instead.

Very few decent principled politicians around these days.

[McD]

Hardly just 'someone he disagrees with'

Well done Jeremy, a principled decent man and politician who very probably wouldn't have invited soubry if he had been chairing the meeting.

Very few decent politicians around these days.


Thats very true, Corbyn is demonstrating that dearth of decent politicians by showing us all how poor he is

[weecounty hibby]

Hardly just 'someone he disagrees with'

Well done Jeremy, a principled decent man and politician who very probably wouldn't have invited soubry if he had been chairing the meeting.

Very few decent politicians around these days.
Brilliant. Absolutely the best trolling ever. You almost had me fooled that you were serious about all that stuff you were saying