Brexit - what will happen next

[marinello59]

He sounds like Peppa Pig’s dad.[emoji3]


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That’s who he reminded me of. I hope he never invites David Cameron round to his place. :greengrin

[jonty]

That’s who he reminded me of. I hope he never invites David Cameron round to his place. :greengrin

Daddy pig ….. :wink: :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Whilst I would like to agree with him (the Scottish secretary is an unnecessary post … from past settlements) its the same paper that has the headlines...

1 Nicola Sturgeon told she was 'not bright enough' to understand Brexit deal
2 Nicola Sturgeon facing strong public opposition to Indyref2
3 Brexit: Theresa May breaks Irish backstop deadlock with EU
4 'IRA' claims responsibility for Glasgow and London letter bombs
5 God supports parents smacking children, church tells MSPs

so i know 3 and 5 are complete bollox
2 is questionable.
4 is as close to the facts as you get.

To think, this is the Herald, not the Daily Mail. One of Scotlands "softer" papers apparently.

[hibsbollah]

Never mind folks. Apparently us jocks aren't "bright enough" to understand the brexit deal.... it's all going to be brilliant. No really, the superior intellect that is Theresa May said so herself.

Russell's words were 'she gave us an explanation of why why were not bright enough', it's unlikely May actually used those words, as the Herald has reported it, it's much more likely to be a general feeling that they all felt generally patronised.

[marinello59]

Russell's words were 'she gave us an explanation of why why were not bright enough', it's unlikely May actually used those words, as the Herald has reported it, it's much more likely to be a general feeling that they all felt generally patronised.

That’s probably close to the truth and just as damning. May is a paternalistic Tory who truly believes ‘Mother’ knows best. That’s why we are where we are now.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17494723.nicola-sturgeon-told-she-was-not-bright-enough-to-understand-brexit-deal/?fbclid=IwAR1aXhWPHJI7FUahdEqFhlK1_oJgtXsRcwP4Wh_7 dXVW8GPCJXYAwdTg_vE

Did anyone else get the advert for Beauty and the Beast in the middle of the article? 😁

[Fife-Hibee]

Ian Blackford cut off by the BBC and Sky News. :rolleyes:

[Bangkok Hibby]

Ian Blackford cut off by the BBC and Sky News. :rolleyes:

**** you British media. **** you you ****ing *******s. Cutting off Ian Blackford mid speech to go to some Tory prick in the studio.

[Fife-Hibee]

**** you British media. **** you you ****ing *******s. Cutting off Ian Blackford mid speech to go to some Tory prick in the studio.

Both channels.... to speak to 2 different people they could have shown later. It's not the first time they've done this either. :grr:

[lapsedhibee]

Ian Blackford cut off by the BBC and Sky News. :rolleyes:


**** you British media. **** you you ****ing *******s. Cutting off Ian Blackford mid speech to go to some Tory prick in the studio.

Here you go:

In the Commons Ian Blackford, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, is speaking now.

He says a no-deal Brexit could be “catastrophic”. MPs must vote against it, he says.

[Fife-Hibee]

Here you go:

In the Commons Ian Blackford, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, is speaking now.

He says a no-deal Brexit could be “catastrophic”. MPs must vote against it, he says.

In that case, they could have shortened down Theresa Mays rabble to "Brexit means brexit" and Corbyns rabble to "I'm a pretendy remainer". But they didn't.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Here you go:

In the Commons Ian Blackford, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, is speaking now.

He says a no-deal Brexit could be “catastrophic”. MPs must vote against it, he says.

Thanks. I was sure what his point would be. My anger was aimed at the British media denying everyone watching.

[Callum_62]

No need to see it - everyone knows the SNP want no deal - so says the Scottish Sec.

[emoji102]


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[Hibbyradge]

In that case, they could have shortened down Theresa Mays rabble to "Brexit means brexit" and Corbyns rabble to "I'm a pretendy remainer". But they didn't.

Aren't the SNP pretendy remainers too ...?

[Callum_62]

Aren't the SNP pretendy remainers too ...?

Ian Blackford pretty concise in his do not support a no deal....like the snp have been for a long time.

Infact weren’t they asking for CU membership?


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[Bangkok Hibby]

No need to see it - everyone knows the SNP want no deal - so says the Scottish Sec.

[emoji102]


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Forget your politics for a minute mate. How about the way the media treats Scotland. Perfect example just now. My New Rangers supporting workmates would be happy with this. Are you?

[lapsedhibee]

Thanks. I was sure what his point would be. My anger was aimed at the British media denying everyone watching.
You and everyone watching, as it rarely varies.

[Bangkok Hibby]

You and everyone watching, as it rarely varies.

Classic missing the point

[Fife-Hibee]

Aren't the SNP pretendy remainers too ...?

If they are, then they're doing a far better job of pretending than that joke called the Labour Party.

[Callum_62]

Forget your politics for a minute mate. How about the way the media treats Scotland. Perfect example just now. My New Rangers supporting workmates would be happy with this. Are you?

Think you missed my point

Im in agreement with you


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[lapsedhibee]

Classic missing the point

Not really. Channel 232 on Freeview, the Parliament channel, didn't cut him off. He's on just now.

BBC News Channel just got bored with everyone, as no-one after Rumpole was saying anything new, and it just happened to be Blackford's turn when they got bored.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s probably close to the truth and just as damning. May is a paternalistic Tory who truly believes ‘Mother’ knows best. That’s why we are where we are now.

Doesn't that make her maternalistic. :confused:

[Bangkok Hibby]

Not really. Channel 232 on Freeview, the Parliament channel, didn't cut him off. He's on just now.

BBC News Channel just got bored with everyone, as no-one after Rumpole was saying anything new, and it just happened to be Blackford's turn when they got bored.

OK i was going to say he would be on the parliament channel but again I will say my anger was aimed at the British media. And i would imagine not many people would include parliament channel in that description. The mainstream British media cut off the leader of the SNP during his speech.

[Fife-Hibee]

Classic missing the point


Think you missed my point

:greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Not really. Channel 232 on Freeview, the Parliament channel, didn't cut him off. He's on just now.

BBC News Channel just got bored with everyone, as no-one after Rumpole was saying anything new, and it just happened to be Blackford's turn when they got bored.

Most people won't watch the parliament channel. They couldn't cut him off on the parliament channel... because, well... it's the parliament channel.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Think you missed my point

Im in agreement with you


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Sorry Callum. Just a wee bit wound up just now. All this is reminding me why i left home

[lapsedhibee]

OK i was going to say he would be on the parliament channel but again I will say my anger was aimed at the British media. And i would imagine not many people would include parliament channel in that description. The mainstream British media cut off the leader of the SNP during his speech.

After BBC News got bored in the debating chamber they quickly interviewed Sammy Wilson and Jacob Rees Mogg in the lobby. Those two are crucial to the outcome of the debate as they speak for the two groups who will bring about the motion's defeat. NOTHING that Blackford was going to say would have any impact WHATSOEVER on the outcome of the debate. I get that you think the UK MSM is biased, but in this particular case the BBC was doing the sensible thing.

[James310]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

[Hibbyradge]

If they are, then they're doing a far better job of pretending than that joke called the Labour Party.

Better liars?

[Fife-Hibee]

Better liars?

I'm not saying they're pretending, you are. I'm just making the point that they must be pretty damn good at it if they are. Seeing as they've been one of the few parties consistent on the issue since it began. Can't say the same about Labour who continue to flap in the wind.

[Fife-Hibee]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

Of course she relied on the greens. Who else was she going to rely on to get the budget through, considering the only other party that offered to do so were the Lib Dems in exchange of them taking a referendum off the table. :confused:

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not saying they're pretending, you are. I'm just making the point that they must be pretty damn good at it if they are. Seeing as they've been one of the few parties consistent on the issue since it began. Can't say the same about Labour who continue to flap in the wind.

I'm agreeing with you.

The SNP are better liars than the Labour Party.

[lapsedhibee]

Most people won't watch the parliament channel. They couldn't cut him off on the parliament channel... because, well... it's the parliament channel.

Parliament channel is coverage of parliament. The rest is just entertainment shows. Given that, it makes sense for the directors of those shows to choose Sammy Wilson and Jacob Rees-Mogg over Ian Blackford.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm agreeing with you.

The SNP are better liars than the Labour Party.

I never said they were lying, you are. So we're clearly not in agreement.

[JeMeSouviens]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

150,426 actually, but who's counting*?







* spoiler alert - not J/J. :rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

Quite a difference between policies that the public can dislike and overturn by kicking them out and the Brexit process


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[JeMeSouviens]

Quite a difference between policies that the public can dislike and overturn by kicking them out and the Brexit process


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Piffle! Everyone knows the HATED CAR PARK TAX :grr: is far worse than ripping the UK out of the best integrated, most extensive free trade area in the world.

[hibsbollah]

That’s probably close to the truth and just as damning. May is a paternalistic Tory who truly believes ‘Mother’ knows best. That’s why we are where we are now.

Oh totally. I'm not giving her a free pass. Dismissive arrogant condescension is the Tory default position at all times, regardless if you're Scottish or from a country of piccaninnies (credit B Johnson).

[Hibbyradge]

I never said they were lying, you are. So we're clearly not in agreement.

Ah, but we are.

[James310]

150,426 actually, but who's counting*?







* spoiler alert - not J/J. :rolleyes:

How many constituency votes did they get?

[marinello59]

Doesn't that make her maternalistic. :confused:

Erm.....Yes. :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Anna Soubry making a brilliant speech.

I feel dirty typing that.

[James310]

Quite a difference between policies that the public can dislike and overturn by kicking them out and the Brexit process


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It's the principle though, she moans about it but yet it happens in our own parliament. I agree the gravity of the decisions are different but principle is the same, she relies on a small and marginal group of MSPS to pass her own bills.

[JeMeSouviens]

How many constituency votes did they get?

Seriously? That the best you can do? :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

How many constituency votes did they get?

The Greens aren't dictating a major policy shift over Northern Ireland or anywhere else outside of Scotland. How many constituency votes did the DUP get in Scotland?

[James310]

Seriously? That the best you can do? :rolleyes:

13,174

[JeMeSouviens]

It's the principle though, she moans about it but yet it happens in our own parliament. I agree the gravity of the decisions are different but principle is the same, she relies on a small and marginal group of MSPS to pass her own bills.

Christ, trust a Tory to find an SNP BAD angle to a day when the Tories are trying to chuck the whole of the UK under a (£350M for the NHS) bus.

[JeMeSouviens]

13,174

This is the Brexit thread - I suggest you rush off and start a "Latest hot rehashes of Nat-bashing trivialities" thread.

[ronaldo7]

Aren't the SNP pretendy remainers too ...?

I know you're asking a question here, but I'm sure you know the answer. You've been following this subject for a couple of years, and surely the SNP position on Brexit hasn't passed you by.

If on the other hand your on a 🎣 expedition, please accept my apologies.

[hibsbollah]

This is the Brexit thread - I suggest you rush off and start a "Latest hot rehashes of Nat-bashing trivialities" thread.

A holy ground thread staying on topic? Youre asking a lot.

[Mibbes Aye]

Anna Soubry making a brilliant speech.

I feel dirty typing that.

:greengrin

I used to really, really dislike her. I thought she came across as patronising and out-of-touch. And then she emerged as a leading Remain figure and gave up all the support she would have by being a Tory MP on principle. There’s a degree of courage there in fairness.

A lot of her work as an MP and minister was socially progressive, I think she is firmly in the one-nation, soft-right Tory camp, a classic ‘wet’. I didn’t have her marked as that kind of Tory but made the effort to look at her record when she gave up the Tory whip and I was positively surprised (not hugely but at least to an extent).

[ronaldo7]

A holy ground thread staying on topic? Youre asking a lot.

By the time, James, tells, John, or Joan, he'll have forgotten anyway. 😏

[James310]

Christ, trust a Tory to find an SNP BAD angle to a day when the Tories are trying to chuck the whole of the UK under a (£350M for the NHS) bus.

If I see hypocrisy then I going to call it out. We all know on this board the SNP get an easy ride due to the fact that in the main everyone is a Nationalists.

I think it's important to highlight their perceived failings just as you point out the many failings of all the other political parties. Example you quote above is the £350M, that was clearly a big fail.

Why is it OK for you to call out 'bad' stuff but as soon as I do you attack it?

[Hibbyradge]

I know you're asking a question here, but I'm sure you know the answer. You've been following this subject for a couple of years, and surely the SNP position on Brexit hasn't passed you by.

If on the other hand your on a 🎣 expedition, please accept my apologies.

I accept.

[ronaldo7]

I accept.

😊

[hibsbollah]

Anna Soubry making a brilliant speech.

I feel dirty typing that.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/votes

Look at her voting record. Supports lower top rates of tax for the highest earners, but cuts to all benefits including for the disabled, supports bombing sprees abroad, voted against job creation schemes for the young, and bizarrely, despite her pro European persona, voted against EU nationals right to remain in the UK.:confused:

A nasty, old school died in the wool Tory. Chukka and co have chosen their friends carefully.

[BroxburnHibee]

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/votes

Look at her voting record. Supports lower top rates of tax for the highest earners, but cuts to all benefits including for the disabled, supports bombing sprees abroad, voted against job creation schemes for the young, and bizarrely, despite her pro European persona, voted against EU nationals right to remain in the UK.:confused:

A nasty, old school died in the wool Tory. Chukka and co have chosen their friends carefully.

Thank you. I'm feeling better now :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/votes

Look at her voting record. Supports lower top rates of tax for the highest earners, but cuts to all benefits including for the disabled, supports bombing sprees abroad, voted against job creation schemes for the young, and bizarrely, despite her pro European persona, voted against EU nationals right to remain in the UK.:confused:

A nasty, old school died in the wool Tory. Chukka and co have chosen their friends carefully.

Point of order:

The dead sheep was Geoffrey Howe. She's not died.

[hibsbollah]

Point of order:

The dead sheep was Geoffrey Howe. She's not died.

I'm not sure if your point of order is down to misuse of ruminant animals or spelling or both. But I own up, ewe've got me ram to rights.

[Fife-Hibee]

If I see hypocrisy then I going to call it out. We all know on this board the SNP get an easy ride due to the fact that in the main everyone is a Nationalists.

I think it's important to highlight their perceived failings just as you point out the many failings of all the other political parties. Example you quote above is the £350M, that was clearly a big fail.

Why is it OK for you to call out 'bad' stuff but as soon as I do you attack it?

Because your "bad stuff" isn't "bad stuff" at all. The government needs a budget in order to govern. What is bad is the fact that other parties weren't willing to work with them unless they took a referendum off the table, despite it being in the party manifesto, which would have been an utterly outrageous thing to do. So they turned to the one party they could work with.

It's only "bad" because it's not the unionist rainbow coalition you were hoping for.

[JeMeSouviens]

If I see hypocrisy then I going to call it out. We all know on this board the SNP get an easy ride due to the fact that in the main everyone is a Nationalists.

I think it's important to highlight their perceived failings just as you point out the many failings of all the other political parties. Example you quote above is the £350M, that was clearly a big fail.

Why is it OK for you to call out 'bad' stuff but as soon as I do you attack it?

Among regular HG contributors I'm not even sure there's a majority of SNP or wider Yes supporters. But leaving the numbers aside, I do sometimes read thoughtful contributions from those that reject Scottish independence that at least make me think, even if I don't quite get to the same conclusion. I don't ever remember reading anything like that from you. It's all confected, petty, knee jerk SNP baddery and Better Together talking points. It's like somebody developed a connection from Murdo Fraser's brain to this forum via your keyboard.

Mostly I try and ignore it but when there's a bad day in the big old Brexit ****show, my irritability gets the better of me and I get impatient with it. For that I do apologise.

[JeMeSouviens]

And on a tangential but happening in the Brexit debate note - wtf is going on with Boris' barnet? :confused:

[James310]

Among regular HG contributors I'm not even sure there's a majority of SNP or wider Yes supporters. But leaving the numbers aside, I do sometimes read thoughtful contributions from those that reject Scottish independence that at least make me think, even if I don't quite get to the same conclusion. I don't ever remember reading anything like that from you. It's all confected, petty, knee jerk SNP baddery and Better Together talking points. It's like somebody developed a connection from Murdo Fraser's brain to this forum via your keyboard.

Mostly I try and ignore it but when there's a bad day in the big old Brexit ****show, my irritability gets the better of me and I get impatient with it. For that I do apologise.

Please feel free to continue to ignore.

[JeMeSouviens]

Please feel free to continue to ignore.

I'll do my best. :aok:

[hibsbollah]

And on a tangential but happening in the Brexit debate note - wtf is going on with Boris' barnet? :confused:

It can't decide whether to leave or remain:greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

150k votes on the list vote. Nice try.

Edit: Oops, realise the factual innaccuracy in the OP has already been corrected.

[James310]

Conservative MP Steve Double says he still hasn't decided which way to vote tonight as "it is between two wrongs, two things I don't want to happen".

He describes the revised deal as "a turd of a deal which is now a polished turd", however adds that, "It might be the best turd we've got."

[heretoday]

She'll lose tonight. The Ergs weren't even in the chamber.

I must admit to a manly 'misting' as she struggled through her statement today.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/votes

Look at her voting record. Supports lower top rates of tax for the highest earners, but cuts to all benefits including for the disabled, supports bombing sprees abroad, voted against job creation schemes for the young, and bizarrely, despite her pro European persona, voted against EU nationals right to remain in the UK.:confused:

A nasty, old school died in the wool Tory. Chukka and co have chosen their friends carefully.

I really didn't like her but she regularly voted for gay rights, including consistently voting for same-sex marriage, voted for smoking bans and voted for assisted dying.

Her record on taxation, welfare and benefits is as Tory as it gets but she is a Conservative MP, so where's the surprise?

She votes like a Tory because she is a Tory. While you and I rarely agree, we probably both disagree with her most of the time. Nevertheless, she is capable of surprises like voting for a statutory register of lobbyists.

I really can't take to her but I think she is that combination of libertarian and soft-right that can find common ground with a centrist left and that's a good thing - socially liberal, at least. There's a majority for that, not for ideologues, whether from the left or the right.

[jonty]

tweets showing pictures of a 'rammed' No lobby

[hibsbollah]

I really didn't like her but she regularly voted for gay rights, including consistently voting for same-sex marriage, voted for smoking bans and voted for assisted dying.

Her record on taxation, welfare and benefits is as Tory as it gets but she is a Conservative MP, so where's the surprise?

She votes like a Tory because she is a Tory. While you and I rarely agree, we probably both disagree with her most of the time. Nevertheless, she is capable of surprises like voting for a statutory register of lobbyists.

I really can't take to her but I think she is that combination of libertarian and soft-right that can find common ground with a centrist left and that's a good thing - socially liberal, at least. There's a majority for that, not for ideologues, whether from the left or the right.

Her voting record speaks for itself; make the rich richer, the poor poorer and reduce the public sector wherever possible. That's as ideological as it comes.

[Hibbyradge]

Gubbed by 149.

[jonty]

Defeated by 149 votes.
For 242
Against 391

[bingo70]

Gubbed by 149.

What happens now then?

No deal Brexit or it gets delayed?

May to resign?

[Hibbyradge]

I did pretty well on my prediction last time, I was only 5 votes out from getting the 230 vote defeat spot on:greengrin. She will win over 30 MPs, from last time who want to be won over, a few abstentions, and will lose tonights vote by 180-190.

Then Amber Rudd and a few others will jump the fence and request an extension to article 50 later in the week and the slow road to Ref2 will still be on.

You're slipping. :wink:

[hibsbollah]

Gubbed by 149.

My 180-190 was a bit optimistic. Just as well I'm not a betting man. Still, will probably be enough to keep her in the leadership for now.

Edit-too late,shamed by Radge :faf:

[Mibbes Aye]

She'll lose tonight. The Ergs weren't even in the chamber.

I must admit to a manly 'misting' as she struggled through her statement today.

I've had the pleasure of reading Robert Caro's four-part biography of Lyndon Johnson over the last few months.

They are immensely-researched and exquisitely written books.

What is striking is that LBJ had to portray himself as a friend and ally of the segregationists in his party, a group who dominated the Democratic vote in the South and in those days the South was Democratic. He had to do it first to get elected to the Senate and then win positions within the party in the Senate, but also then to win a place on the presidential ticket alongside JFK.

After JFK's assassination, LBJ used his authority and the momentum from succeeding an assassinated president to pass two momentous pieces of legislation that enforced civil and voting rights for black Americans. It's unclear to the degree LBJ was a true believer - he seemed to have a genuine sense of the wrongs of injustice and a desire to remedy it but he spent his entire time in the Senate blocking civil rights legislation.

I'm no fan of Theresa May, by a very long chalk, but I can see similarities to the extent that she is probably a Remainer and is trying to hustle the process to get to an extension - she talks about no-deal but that won't pass Parliament. I think history will be kinder to her than we are as it will emerge that she obfuscated and bluffed and avoided, in order to get the delays that would lead to a second vote.

Very uncomfortable giving any praise to May, and her position is in question but Corbyn is simply failing to offer a reasonable and plausible alternative approach.

[Hibbyradge]

I've had the pleasure of reading Robert Caro's four-part biography of Lyndon Johnson over the last few months.

They are immensely-researched and exquisitely written books.

What is striking is that LBJ had to portray himself as a friend and ally of the segregationists in his party, a group who dominated the Democratic vote in the South and in those days the South was Democratic. He had to do it first to get elected to the Senate and then win positions within the party in the Senate, but also then to win a place on the presidential ticket alongside JFK.

After JFK's assassination, LBJ used his authority and the momentum from succeeding an assassinated president to pass two momentous pieces of legislation that enforced civil and voting rights for black Americans. It's unclear to the degree LBJ was a true believer - he seemed to have a genuine sense of the wrongs of injustice and a desire to remedy it but he spent his entire time in the Senate blocking civil rights legislation.

I'm no fan of Theresa May, by a very long chalk, but I can see similarities to the extent that she is probably a Remainer and is trying to hustle the process to get to an extension - she talks about no-deal but that won't pass Parliament. I think history will be kinder to her than we are as it will emerge that she obfuscated and bluffed and avoided, in order to get the delays that would lead to a second vote.

Very uncomfortable giving any praise to May, and her position is in question but Corbyn is simply failing to offer a reasonable and plausible alternative approach.

Stop it, J.

It's the hope that kills us ...

[Hibs90]

Opinion - every single of those MPs are ****ing tools.

[Mibbes Aye]

Her voting record speaks for itself; make the rich richer, the poor poorer and reduce the public sector wherever possible. That's as ideological as it comes.

That's not really an answer but I don't want to argue with you about Anna Soubry FFS :greengrin

My point is Tories are Tories but there is an element of common ground where Tory libertarians share the same ground as the left of centre on social issues.

And while Anna Soubry's voting record on taxation or welfare is true-blue Tory, she is an infinitesimal better person than Phillip Davies.

And I say that as someone who doesn't like her.

[Mibbes Aye]

Stop it, J.

It's the hope that kills us ...

Eternal optimist D :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

The no deal agenda going completely to plan.

[Jack Hackett]

And on a tangential but happening in the Brexit debate note - wtf is going on with Boris' barnet? :confused:

His way of showing everyone he's now a grown up and ready to lead the country

[James310]

The no deal agenda going completely to plan.

So you think the House of Commons will vote for a no deal Brexit tomorrow?

[Fife-Hibee]

So you think the House of Commons will vote for a no deal Brexit tomorrow?

It doesn't have to. There will be no deal regardless. The vote tomorrow is just something they can fall back on when they claim that it's the EU's fault that there was no deal.

[cabbageandribs1875]

The no deal agenda going completely to plan.


on the contrary..imo...the dancing queen will NOT take us out with no deal. and i'm still convinced their will be no brexit



i read earlier that every month of delay will cost one billion quid

[James310]

It doesn't have to. There will be no deal regardless. The vote tomorrow is just something they can fall back on when they claim that it's the EU's fault that there was no deal.

Your not making sense, if they vote down a no deal Brexit then they will vote on Thursday to extend A50. So explain the process of how we end up with a no deal Brexit when the house of commons votes against it tomorrow?

[Besties Debut]

Put all the brexit options on the table and let the people vote. This gridlock in the commons could go on forever

[cabbageandribs1875]

theresa may needs to let andrea leadsom speak/croak for her

[Fife-Hibee]

Your not making sense, if they vote down a no deal Brexit then they will vote on Thursday to extend A50. So explain the process of how we end up with a no deal Brexit when the house of commons votes against it tomorrow?

Extending article 50 doesn't take no deal off the table, it just drags things out further for a couple of more months, only for it to lead to the same conclusion.

The vote tomorrow is utterly meaningless, which is why it's limited to the tory party only. If a deal can't be agreed in the end, no deal will be the result.

[Bristolhibby]

Your not making sense, if they vote down a no deal Brexit then they will vote on Thursday to extend A50. So explain the process of how we end up with a no deal Brexit when the house of commons votes against it tomorrow?

If the EU don’t unanimously agree to the extension we are leaving on March 29th with No Deal.

In that case we need to unilaterally revoke A50, that’s the logical conclusion to that path.

To get the extension the U.K. need to offer the EU Something to guarantee the extension. IMHO the way to get that is to promise a new vote.

J

[Hibbyradge]

Extending article 50 doesn't take no deal off the table, it just drags things out further for a couple of more months, only for it to lead to the same conclusion.

The vote tomorrow is utterly meaningless, which is why it's limited to the tory party only. If a deal can't be agreed in the end, no deal will be the result.

The vote tomorrow isn't meaningless. How can it be if a yes vote crashes us out of the EU in 16 days?

Parliament will say no to no deal. That's not meaningless and it will be almost impossible to reverse without a public vote.

On the 13th of March we thought crashing out of Europe was a very bad idea, but now that it's the 13th if May/June/July we think it's a good idea.

[GlesgaeHibby]

If Parliament rejects no deal, and rejects and extension, where on earth does that leave us? Crashing out by default or revoking Article 50?

[Bristolhibby]

If Parliament rejects no deal, and rejects and extension, where on earth does that leave us? Crashing out by default or revoking Article 50?

Yip

[Fife-Hibee]

The vote tomorrow isn't meaningless. How can it be if a yes vote crashes us out of the EU in 16 days?

Parliament will say no to no deal. That's not meaningless and it will be almost impossible to reverse without a public vote.

On the 13th of March we thought crashing out of Europe was a very bad idea, but now that it's the 13th if May/June/July we think it's a good idea.

The only way no deal can be avoided is if A) A deal is agreed in Parliament or B) There is a peoples vote that could reverse brexit altogether.

Having a vote on a "no deal" does nothing if there is no deal for parliament to agree to, or no peoples vote to stop brexit. Like I said, it's an utterly meaningless vote that changes nothing.

[marinello59]

The no deal agenda going completely to plan.

Eh?
Still no answer to my question by the way. Why not? No courage in your convictions?

[hibsbollah]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned in the coverage, I'm hoping perhaps JMS knows...

Why is tomorrows vote necessary, when the Yvette Cooper amendment asked virtually the same question of MPs a few weeks ago, and they already backed that amendment, rejecting the notion of no deal in principle? The talk then was that amendment would be legally binding, and a legal challenge would be mounted in the event of a no deal. So why tomorrows vote?

[Callum_62]

The only way no deal can be avoided is if A) A deal is agreed in Parliament or B) There is a peoples vote that could reverse brexit altogether.

Having a vote on a "no deal" does nothing if there is no deal for parliament to agree to, or no peoples vote to stop brexit. Like I said, it's an utterly meaningless vote that changes nothing.

We can unilaterally revoke article 50


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[Fife-Hibee]

We can unilaterally revoke article 50


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Although that's technically possible, we all know that's not going to happen. Not unless they wish to cause mass hysteria all over the UK.

[Mibbes Aye]

They were called the "feeble fifty" because they were quite content with Scotland having no real input on UK matters that impacted Scotland, as long as they were earning a cushty number for themselves.

The SNP are also ineffective at Westminster, but they recognize the issue for what it is, it doesn't matter who we send down there to "represent" us, because any democratically elected representatives that Scotland sends down there are scoffed at, insulted and in some cases, even told to kill themselves.

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.


People like me? Could you explain what that means?

I'm interested too.

What did you mean when you described M59 as "people like you" who "simply don't care"

[Smartie]

Conservative MP Steve Double says he still hasn't decided which way to vote tonight as "it is between two wrongs, two things I don't want to happen".

He describes the revised deal as "a turd of a deal which is now a polished turd", however adds that, "It might be the best turd we've got."

I was listening to that earlier, and debate at that level has given me a renewed hope in politics.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm interested too.

What did you mean when you described M59 as "people like you" who "simply don't care"

#me2

[Mibbes Aye]

#me2

:greengrin

#bammerpersecutingM59

#noplausiblereply

#hencenoreply

[Bristolhibby]

Bit rich of Nicola Sturgeon to moan about a handful of DUP MPs holding so much sway over the future of the UK when she relies on the handful of Greens who have around 13,000 votes in Scotland to pass her policies and budgets in the Scottish Parliament.

That’s right, Scottish Greens in the Scottish Parliament voting on Scottish issues.

J

[James310]

That’s right, Scottish Greens in the Scottish Parliament voting on Scottish issues.

J
Are the DUP MPs not UK MPs sitting in the UK parliament voting on UK issues?

[marinello59]

:greengrin

#bammerpersecutingM59

#noplausiblereply

#hencenoreply

I’m hardly persecuted. 😂😂😂
I’ve maybe chased this one too much with young Mr Fife. Peace and love to all. 😃

[Bristolhibby]

Are the DUP MPs not UK MPs sitting in the UK parliament voting on UK issues?

Yes but broadly speaking the SNP don’t dance to the Greens tune. The opposite is true with the DUP.

May has a hotline to Arleen. Totally Pies off the devolved Parliament of Scotland, the Welsh Assembly and the Government of Gibraltar. Not to mention ignoring the bulk of people actually in Northern Ireland who voted remain, are Republicans or are Unionists not of the bat**** crazy DUP variety.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m hardly persecuted. 😂😂😂
I’ve maybe chased this one too much with young Mr Fife. Peace and love to all. 😃

I think you are entitled to a response, we will see if one comes :greengrin

At the same time, politics and discussion has become so febrile in the last few years.

The referendum on independence, the referendum on Brexit, the divides within Labour, the divides within the Tories and countless other issues - they all seem to become about exacerbating conflict, division and tension. The cheap use of of social media on all sides make matters worse.

We live in an age where communication is easier and more ready yet it appears to have been hijacked, to an extent, by those who wish to promulgate a message of disunity and difference, rather than celebrating what might be positive, what unites us rather than what differentiates us.

[James310]

Yes but broadly speaking the SNP don’t dance to the Greens tune. The opposite is true with the DUP.

May has a hotline to Arleen. Totally Pies off the devolved Parliament of Scotland, the Welsh Assembly and the Government of Gibraltar. Not to mention ignoring the bulk of people actually in Northern Ireland who voted remain, are Republicans or are Unionists not of the bat**** crazy DUP variety.

J

The Finance Minister admitted he only got his budget approved in the Scottish Parliament by giving concessions to the Greens.

It is on a different scale but principle is the same, as a minority Government Nicola Sturgeon also similarly relies on the support of a small marginal party. The budget being such an example.

[Bristolhibby]

The Finance Minister admitted he only got his budget approved in the Scottish Parliament by giving concessions to the Greens.

It is on a different scale but principle is the same, as a minority Government Nicola Sturgeon also similarly relies on the support of a small marginal party. The budget being such an example.

I suppose if I’m being honest I like Green policies and absolutely loathe what the DUP stand for and their principles.

Guess in that sense it’s an easier jump for me to make.

Still believe that the DUP hold more sway over the U.K. government (which governs for the whole of the U.K.) compared to the Power relationship that the Greens have with the Scottish government that governs (only part) of Scotland. (Devolved powers only).

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes but broadly speaking the SNP don’t dance to the Greens tune. The opposite is true with the DUP.

May has a hotline to Arleen. Totally Pies off the devolved Parliament of Scotland, the Welsh Assembly and the Government of Gibraltar. Not to mention ignoring the bulk of people actually in Northern Ireland who voted remain, are Republicans or are Unionists not of the bat**** crazy DUP variety.

J

I can't think of any circumstances in which I would vote Tory. My paternal grandparents were persecuted Irish Catholics who fled to Scotland so I have little time for the DUP.

At the same time, I understand politics is politics. The DUP are doing exactly what I would do if I was Arlene Foster, trying to exert as much advantage as was at all possible. And then making a judgement about what positioning would extract the maximum benefit, dependent on how negotiations were going.

Doesn't mean Foster and her advisers have got it right, but as much as they repel me, I don't blame them for trying to secure the best deal they think they need to get, as despicable as I find their premises.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think you are entitled to a response, we will see if one comes :greengrin

At the same time, politics and discussion has become so febrile in the last few years.

The referendum on independence, the referendum on Brexit, the divides within Labour, the divides within the Tories and countless other issues - they all seem to become about exacerbating conflict, division and tension. The cheap use of of social media on all sides make matters worse.

We live in an age where communication is easier and more ready yet it appears to have been hijacked, to an extent, by those who wish to promulgate a message of disunity and difference, rather than celebrating what might be positive, what unites us rather than what differentiates us.

What unites the UK? I think that's an answer that all Scottish Independence supporters seek but never find an answer to. It just appears to be political legislation, nothing else.

[Hibbyradge]

What unites the UK? I think that's an answer that all Scottish Independence supporters seek but never find an answer to. It just appears to be political legislation, nothing else.

Why don't you respond to M59?

Are you merely another keyboard commando who enjoys typing whatever comes into their nasty little minds, cowards actually.

Or did you have a debating point?

[Fife-Hibee]

Why don't you respond to M59?

Are you merely another keyboard commando who enjoys typing whatever comes into their nasty little minds, cowards actually.

Or did you have a debating point?

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.

[Mibbes Aye]

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.

I'm not in a gang and I do have a face.

Respond to Marinello59.

[weecounty hibby]

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.
Mate, I'm on your side of the debate. But we will get more converts to the cause by reasoned debate and dialogue than we will by falling out with folk. Keep up the debate and trying to persuade folk to our, the right, side but do it by friendly dialogue

[Hibbyradge]

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.

No-one understood your point. That's why you're being asked to clarify what you meant.

You're being cowardly.

[McD]

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.


No. You made a snidey comment thinking you were being clever, and now (and for days), you’re being pulled up about it and asked to explain your comment

and now you’re trying to ignore the repeated question of explaining what you meant, and hoping everyone else forgets it.

Radge has called this one correct.

[marinello59]

I did have a point, I made the point, they understood the point. I don't feel the need to delve into it any further and some little gang of no faces on here isn't going to drag me down with them. I'm entitled to my view, you're entitled to call me nasty, or whatever. I'm entitled not to care.

I really don’t want you to feel as if you are being hounded here.
But I did ask you four times to explain what you meant before anybody else commented. So clearly I didnt understand what you meant. You just ignored me.

[Hibrandenburg]

Meanwhile in the EU the vultures are circling. I think there will be a few countries with their eyes on picking up trade that the UK will lose if a no deal Brexit happens. There's no guarantee that all EU countries will agree to extend the withdrawal period. Up until now the UK have had their destiny in their own hands, that changed tonight and options are limited.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Finance Minister admitted he only got his budget approved in the Scottish Parliament by giving concessions to the Greens.

It is on a different scale but principle is the same, as a minority Government Nicola Sturgeon also similarly relies on the support of a small marginal party. The budget being such an example.

Not strictly true.

The Scottish Green Party made a number of proposals to the Scottish budget which the government agreed to. Not concessions but rather additional green proposals to help environmental issues.

[JeMeSouviens]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned in the coverage, I'm hoping perhaps JMS knows...

Why is tomorrows vote necessary, when the Yvette Cooper amendment asked virtually the same question of MPs a few weeks ago, and they already backed that amendment, rejecting the notion of no deal in principle? The talk then was that amendment would be legally binding, and a legal challenge would be mounted in the event of a no deal. So why tomorrows vote?

Think you’re mixing amendments. Cooper hasn’t actually got one through yet. Cooper/Boles which would have given parliament control was defeated. Cooper/Letwin which would have forced an extension vote was pulled when May promised the extension vote coming on Thursday.

There was an anti no deal amendment passed (Spellman/Dromey) but it just noted opposition to no deal and didn’t instruct anything else to happen.

[James310]

Not strictly true.

The Scottish Green Party made a number of proposals to the Scottish budget which the government agreed to. Not concessions but rather additional green proposals to help environmental issues.

Definition of concession:

"A thing that is granted, especially in response to demands"

Patrick Harvie says to Derek McKay that I am not supporting your budget unless you meet my demands for X, Y and Z.

Derek McKay grants those demands and includes in the budget, therefore making a concession.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't think of any circumstances in which I would vote Tory. My paternal grandparents were persecuted Irish Catholics who fled to Scotland so I have little time for the DUP.

At the same time, I understand politics is politics. The DUP are doing exactly what I would do if I was Arlene Foster, trying to exert as much advantage as was at all possible. And then making a judgement about what positioning would extract the maximum benefit, dependent on how negotiations were going.

Doesn't mean Foster and her advisers have got it right, but as much as they repel me, I don't blame them for trying to secure the best deal they think they need to get, as despicable as I find their premises.

The really weird thing is that no deal Brexit puts a united Ireland poll on the table and the backstop would give NI a unique economic foot in both camps. They would be the only territory in the world that could export to GB and Europe with no trade barriers.

****ing loonies if you ask me.

[hibsbollah]

Think you’re mixing amendments. Cooper hasn’t actually got one through yet. Cooper/Boles which would have given parliament control was defeated. Cooper/Letwin which would have forced an extension vote was pulled when May promised the extension vote coming on Thursday.

There was an anti no deal amendment passed (Spellman/Dromey) but it just noted opposition to no deal and didn’t instruct anything else to happen.

:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

What unites the UK? I think that's an answer that all Scottish Independence supporters seek but never find an answer to. It just appears to be political legislation, nothing else.

What legislation isn't political?

In fairness to your post, I should make it clear that I'm not a committed supporter of how we do things just now and I've posted about what I think is probably the best way, and that's different from what we have and from what the SNP want.

As to what unites the UK, I've posted this before but I can only recommend the book 'Britons' by the very respected historian, Linda Colley.

In great detail she argues a case about how Britain was formed.

Part of it was war and threat, a very genuine threat, where we feared invasion by Napoleonic forces.

Part of it was religion. The Reformation took hold in Britain, in different ways between England and Scotland, but essentially Catholicism became tainted and seen as suspicious, and Protestantism, in varying forms became a uniting cause and seen as 'British'

And part of it was trade. The moment of the alliance when James VI became James I led into the growth of trade, Empire and the industrial revolution. All of a sudden, Britain (and it was Britain) started generating enormous wealth. It's almost beyond our understanding - Paisley ranks only slightly behind Edinburgh for listed buildings that stemmed from the trade they dealt with during the 19th century. It is filled with countless examples of fine Victorian architecture. The finer parts of most British cities were built on Victorian wealth, sadly some linked to the slave trade.

So when you ask what unites the UK, the origins of it were war, religion and trade.

I think nowadays, those factors have undoubtedly changed,

We don't have to worry about Spain or France, or Germany, invading us. We do have security concerns about Russia and we do worry about governless states risking our security through terrorism and asymmetric warfare.

Religion has changed but maybe not that much. Three hundred years ago we feared people who were devout in their religion, who insisted on staying in their religion and were dogmatic they would raise their children that way. They often didn't speak the same language. The rules of their religions went against our law. They refused to change their beliefs just to fit in with our moral code.

We called them Catholics then, we call them Muslims now.

As for trade, it has become universal - something we went to the shop for is now now something we order from Amazon. I feel the genie is out of the bottle in this one. The high street is dead apart from niche suppliers.

Getting back to your question, and what unites the UK?

I think there is common ground on social democratic principles that unites lots of voters in the Scottish central belt, the North-West and North-East of England and Lomdon. On a good day it draws in voters in the West and East Midlands and potentially the South-West.

It is about progressive policies and a desire for social justice and some sort of redistribution. On a very good day it swings the key marginals in the South-East and gets Labour into power.

Then we get stuff like an NHS. Then we get stuff like the Open University. Then we get stuff like the Race Relations Act. Then we get stuff like the minimum wage.

And those things unite the UK I guess.

[Mibbes Aye]

The really weird thing is that no deal Brexit puts a united Ireland poll on the table and the backstop would give NI a unique economic foot in both camps. They would be the only territory in the world that could export to GB and Europe with no trade barriers.

****ing loonies if you ask me.

I can't get my head around it at all but I think the DUP have to tread a line where they prop up May because that gives them influence at Westminster and win what are essentially bribes by way of extra government funding.

At the same time, they can't be seen to allow an unlimited backstop, or indeed there is pressure to have no backstop at all, because that's on the borderline (no pun intended) of uniting the 26 with the 6 and they would lose their core vote if they even made the merest suggestion of that.

I despise the Tories and the DUP but so far, I think May and Foster have played it as well as they can - they are still in charge, and if I were in their shoes I would have done exactly the same (though I shudder to put myself in their shoes).

[JeMeSouviens]

:aok:

Prepare for confusion extra!

Cooper/Boles/Letwin amendment tomorrow with simple rejection of no deal in any circumstances.

Govt motion attempts to keep no deal on table but just move end date.

[hibsbollah]

Prepare for confusion extra!

Cooper/Boles/Letwin amendment tomorrow with simple rejection of no deal in any circumstances.

Govt motion attempts to keep no deal on table but just move end date.

I've just realised what I was thinking of, it was the Cooper Finance Bill amendment, that was specifically about blocking the treasury's ability to deliver no deal. (That Yvette cooper, obviously got too much time on her hands :greengrin )Which kind of says the same thing; the will of the commons is that a no deal Brexit should not be allowed to take place...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/finance-bill-does-amendment-mean-brexit/

[Colr]

Ian Paisley claiming that No Deal should be kept on the table for negotiation purposes.

On that basis, a united Ireland would also solve the Irish border issue so that should also be on the table. That’ll focus the DUP’s tiny minds.

[lapsedhibee]

Ian Paisley claiming that No Deal should be kept on the table for negotiation purposes.

On that basis, a united Ireland would also solve the Irish border issue so that should also be on the table. That’ll focus the DUP’s tiny minds.

Not fair requiring them to focus their minds while they're on holiday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4TeNAT0Uc4

[hibsbollah]

Not fair requiring them to focus their minds while they're on holiday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4TeNAT0Uc4

:faf:
Those Ali G sketches used to work great, now you know even the most sheltered politicians have their eye out for them. Philomena Cunks ones are just a parody of themselves because everyone knows what's going on.

[Just Alf]

Reading on the BBC that part of the.no deal implementation plan includes a removal of the need for any cross border checks or tariffs in Ireland .

So one of the Brexiteer aims of getting back control of the borders involves having none at all?

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[Ozyhibby]

The new tariffs announced this morning also mean that NI is treated differently from the rest of the UK. The DUP will be furious.



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[Ozyhibby]

UK import Tariffs under no deal

Rates include beef (53% of MFN), poultry meat (60%), sheep meat (100%), pig meat (13%), butter (32%), Cheddar-like cheese (13%), protected fish and seafood products (100%) and milled and semi-milled products (83%).


Some pretty big price rises coming at a supermarket near you.


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[Slavers]

UK import Tariffs under no deal

Rates include beef (53% of MFN), poultry meat (60%), sheep meat (100%), pig meat (13%), butter (32%), Cheddar-like cheese (13%), protected fish and seafood products (100%) and milled and semi-milled products (83%).


Some pretty big price rises coming at a supermarket near you.


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Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

[Peevemor]

Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

Most people don't have the choice.

[Moulin Yarns]

Definition of concession:

"A thing that is granted, especially in response to demands"

Patrick Harvie says to Derek McKay that I am not supporting your budget unless you meet my demands for X, Y and Z.

Derek McKay grants those demands and includes in the budget, therefore making a concession.

Definition of agreement:

"a negotiated and typically legally binding arrangement between parties as to a course of action."

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-2019-20-stage-1-scottish-greens-agreement-letters/
(https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-2019-20-stage-1-scottish-greens-agreement-letters/)

To save you the bother here are the key agreements between the parties:

Review the Council Tax
introduce legislation to allow local tourist levy
introduce legislation to allow work place parking levy
Move to increase single use bag charge
Move to introduce disposable cup charge
Increase employer pension contributions for teachers
£187m additional local government funding
Council tax increase of up to 4.79%

[Ozyhibby]

Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

I would rather people could afford to feed their families.


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[Ozyhibby]

10% tariff on all cars from EU unless you buy in Ireland. There is going to be a lot of Mercs with Irish plates driving about.
9 out of the top 10 selling cars in the UK are from the EU so cars are going to be 10% more expensive as well.


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[CropleyWasGod]

10% tariff on all cars from EU unless you buy in Ireland. There is going to be a lot of Mercs with Irish plates driving about.
9 out of the top 10 selling cars in the UK are from the EU so cars are going to be 10% more expensive as well.


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I've said this before, but does anyone think that this is all part of the master plan? Let the public have a sneak preview of what's over the cliff, so that there is more pressure for a second referendum ....this time with the result that the Establishment wanted in the first place.

[Callum_62]

Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

Can we locally produce enough product to sustain ourselves?


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[Hibbyradge]

I've said this before, but does anyone think that this is all part of the master plan? Let the public have a sneak preview of what's over the cliff, so that there is more pressure for a second referendum ....this time with the result that the Establishment wanted in the first place.

You think there's a plan, master or otherwise?

[Slavers]

I would rather people could afford to feed their families.


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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give him a means to catch his own fish and he will never be hungry.

[Slavers]

Can we locally produce enough product to sustain ourselves?


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Just think we might need to create an industry to cope with the demand.

[jonty]

I've said this before, but does anyone think that this is all part of the master plan? Let the public have a sneak preview of what's over the cliff, so that there is more pressure for a second referendum ....this time with the result that the Establishment wanted in the first place.

She could have saved billions and two years, by being honest in the first place.

[Ozyhibby]

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give him a means to catch his own fish and he will never be hungry.

You want people to give up their nice little office jobs to man trawlers?


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[Sylar]

Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

Utter whimsical bull****.

We don't have the capacity to sustain our population through purely local supply chains.

[Ozyhibby]

Just think we might need to create an industry to cope with the demand.

We have almost full employment. Where are we going to get people to work these farms?


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[Callum_62]

Just think we might need to create an industry to cope with the demand.

Sounds fairly straight forward and we have 18 days to get it up and running [emoji1303]


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[Moulin Yarns]

We have almost full employment. Where are we going to get people to work these farms?


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Eastern Europe :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

We have almost full employment. Where are we going to get people to work these farms?


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Don't worry, I'm sure if there's no deal there will be a massive increase in those looking for work.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't get my head around it at all but I think the DUP have to tread a line where they prop up May because that gives them influence at Westminster and win what are essentially bribes by way of extra government funding.

At the same time, they can't be seen to allow an unlimited backstop, or indeed there is pressure to have no backstop at all, because that's on the borderline (no pun intended) of uniting the 26 with the 6 and they would lose their core vote if they even made the merest suggestion of that.

I despise the Tories and the DUP but so far, I think May and Foster have played it as well as they can - they are still in charge, and if I were in their shoes I would have done exactly the same (though I shudder to put myself in their shoes).

:confused: That's certainly an (ahem) unconventional take! :greengrin

I think they've both boxed themselves into corners they didn't really want to be in and then repeatedly doubled down on their past mistakes. Still, if it ends with a very soft Brexit or Remain, I for one will judge them both with contemptuous fondness. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

I've just realised what I was thinking of, it was the Cooper Finance Bill amendment, that was specifically about blocking the treasury's ability to deliver no deal. (That Yvette cooper, obviously got too much time on her hands :greengrin )Which kind of says the same thing; the will of the commons is that a no deal Brexit should not be allowed to take place...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/finance-bill-does-amendment-mean-brexit/

Oh yeah! Forgot that one. It's a thorn in the side of no deal because it inhibits the Gov's ability to collect taxes. I'm pretty sure the consensus opinion was they couldd find a way round it if need be though.

[jonty]

Would you rather we imported cheap products from outwith the UK or support local industry?

but but but thats the leavers dream economists master plan. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/
Abolish manufacturing. Import everything.
Kill the manufacturing industry and drive up wage inequality.

[hibsbollah]

:confused: That's certainly an (ahem) unconventional take! :greengrin

I think they've both boxed themselves into corners they didn't really want to be in and then repeatedly doubled down on their past mistakes. Still, if it ends with a very soft Brexit or Remain, I for one will judge them both with contemptuous fondness. :wink:

It beggars belief that May could be described as having 'played the process well'. Foster has 'played it well', in the sense that she secured for her party (lest we forget, a party with links to terrorist organisations, who are opposed to gay equality and abortion for rape victims) one billion pounds from the UK exchequer, in a process where they didn't even secure a majority for Mays deal. The money was plundered from the nation, in order to prop up May and her deal, and ended up being a waste, in that the May deal has collapsed regardless despite the pork barreling.

When you find yourself what a ****show it's been, it's almost beyond comprehension. Strong and stable. The party of Economic competence.

[hibsbollah]

Oh yeah! Forgot that one. It's a thorn in the side of no deal because it inhibits the Gov's ability to collect taxes. I'm pretty sure the consensus opinion was they couldd find a way round it if need be though.

I'm no expert but I bet they could base a legal challenge on it, on the basis that that vote represents the will of the commons and any no deal would be unconstitutional?

[Ozyhibby]

CBI chief Carolyn Fairbairn talking about the tariffs:

"What we are hearing is the biggest change in terms of trade this country has faced since the mid-19th century being imposed on this country with no consultation with business, no time to prepare."

"This is a sledgehammer for our economy."


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[JeMeSouviens]

What legislation isn't political?

In fairness to your post, I should make it clear that I'm not a committed supporter of how we do things just now and I've posted about what I think is probably the best way, and that's different from what we have and from what the SNP want.

As to what unites the UK, I've posted this before but I can only recommend the book 'Britons' by the very respected historian, Linda Colley.

In great detail she argues a case about how Britain was formed.

Part of it was war and threat, a very genuine threat, where we feared invasion by Napoleonic forces.

Part of it was religion. The Reformation took hold in Britain, in different ways between England and Scotland, but essentially Catholicism became tainted and seen as suspicious, and Protestantism, in varying forms became a uniting cause and seen as 'British'

And part of it was trade. The moment of the alliance when James VI became James I led into the growth of trade, Empire and the industrial revolution. All of a sudden, Britain (and it was Britain) started generating enormous wealth. It's almost beyond our understanding - Paisley ranks only slightly behind Edinburgh for listed buildings that stemmed from the trade they dealt with during the 19th century. It is filled with countless examples of fine Victorian architecture. The finer parts of most British cities were built on Victorian wealth, sadly some linked to the slave trade.

So when you ask what unites the UK, the origins of it were war, religion and trade.

I think nowadays, those factors have undoubtedly changed,

We don't have to worry about Spain or France, or Germany, invading us. We do have security concerns about Russia and we do worry about governless states risking our security through terrorism and asymmetric warfare.

Religion has changed but maybe not that much. Three hundred years ago we feared people who were devout in their religion, who insisted on staying in their religion and were dogmatic they would raise their children that way. They often didn't speak the same language. The rules of their religions went against our law. They refused to change their beliefs just to fit in with our moral code.

We called them Catholics then, we call them Muslims now.

As for trade, it has become universal - something we went to the shop for is now now something we order from Amazon. I feel the genie is out of the bottle in this one. The high street is dead apart from niche suppliers.

Getting back to your question, and what unites the UK?

I think there is common ground on social democratic principles that unites lots of voters in the Scottish central belt, the North-West and North-East of England and Lomdon. On a good day it draws in voters in the West and East Midlands and potentially the South-West.

It is about progressive policies and a desire for social justice and some sort of redistribution. On a very good day it swings the key marginals in the South-East and gets Labour into power.

Then we get stuff like an NHS. Then we get stuff like the Open University. Then we get stuff like the Race Relations Act. Then we get stuff like the minimum wage.

And those things unite the UK I guess.

Interesting post. I agree with large parts of it. War and trade are a given, the creation of the UK was an exchange of security on England's northern border for Scotland's economic access to the English (and later Imperial) market.

I think the religious aspect is much more nuanced. There was definitely an anti-Catholic alliance but although Presbyterianism vs Episcopalianism seems like academic detail now, it was literally life and death to the Covenanters! The distinctiveness of the Scots Kirk and its effects (substantial ... mixed ... maybe not go there :wink:) was perhaps the principal reason a separate Scottish identity lived on within Britain. And it definitely did live on. It can be traced through the Jacobite risings (complicated and not definitely not Scots/English but Scottish sovereignty and residual loyalty to the Stuarts were both factors), the Radical war, the birth of the Labour party (home rulers) and all the way through the 20th century and the gradual establishment of an Independence movement. Even in the 1950s, at pretty much the height of "Britishness", 2 million signed the "National Covenant" seeking home rule.

Nowadays, war is still a big factor in why Britain wants to keep Scotland territorywise - think Trident and the strategic importance of the GIUK gap. Trade is much diminished as a glue factor thanks to the EU and its single market, but may become more important, both for and against the continuation of the UK, post-Brexit. Religion, I think has had its day. Although I agree making Islam the "other" is a key strategic aim of the alt-right and their attempt to forge a Trump style nativism in Britain.

[Slavers]

Utter whimsical bull****.

We don't have the capacity to sustain our population through purely local supply chains.

Yet many would argue for more immigration even though as you say we don't have the capacity?

[Callum_62]

Yet many would argue for more immigration even though as you say we don't have the capacity?

“....Through purely local supplies” is the pertinent part of that quote....the part you totally ignored


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[Slavers]

“....Through purely local supplies” is the pertinent part of that quote....the part you totally ignored


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I don't think it would be reasonable to jump to the conclusion that all the food requirements should come from local supplies but with an increase of local produce and new suppliers outwith the EU the the short fall could be
satisfied.

[Callum_62]

I don't think it would be reasonable to jump to the conclusion that all the food requirements should come from local supplies but with an increase of local produce and new suppliers outwith the EU the the short fall could be
satisfied.

So now you are advocating cheap products from out with the UK?


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[Slavers]

So now you are advocating cheap products from out with the UK?


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I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!

[JeMeSouviens]

In the Commons, the Chancellor urges MPs to rule out no deal. Moments later, the Chief Secretary to the Treasuy goes on the telly and urges MPs to keep no deal on the table.

It's amazing how normal this now seems. :crazy:

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!

:faf: If only we all believed hard enough ...

[Smartie]

Protectionism.

It doesn't work, full stop.

[cabbageandribs1875]

by jings i certainly won't miss that wee studio outside westminster, listening to they ***** trying to outshout each other and yelling into they freakin megaphones :grr:

[Callum_62]

I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!

So what will we gain long term that we do not have now?


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[Ozyhibby]

Protectionism.

It doesn't work, full stop.

It just makes us all poorer. Putting the interests of producers above consumers will increase poverty in this country.


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[Ozyhibby]

So what will we gain long term that we do not have now?


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You’ll have to work on a farm.[emoji3]


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[Slavers]

So what will we gain long term that we do not have now?


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Increased industry within the UK and access to other markets.

[grunt]

Increased industry within the UK and access to other markets.
Name a market we dont currently have access to.

[Slavers]

Name a market we dont currently have access to.

I mean being able set our own tarrifs in other markets and not have them dictated to us by the EU.

[grunt]

I mean being able set our own tarrifs in other markets and not have them dictated to us by the EU.
The EU tariffs werent "dictated to us" - we helped to set them.
And in what ways are the current EU tariffs disadvantaging us and our international trade?
Which ones would you change? And how would you change them?

[Colr]

If no deal is on the table surely united Ireland should be as well. That would be a solution to the backstop.

[JeMeSouviens]

The EU tariffs werent "dictated to us" - we helped to set them.
And in what ways are the current EU tariffs disadvantaging us and our international trade?
Which ones would you change? And how would you change them?

Japan have already indicated they won't agree to the UK's request to roll the new EU-Japan FTA over into a UK-Japan one. They know they have more leverage negotiating with a 60M sized market desperate for deals than they did with a 500M sized market.

The UK will not get better deals than the EU. They could aim for different deals, eg, one with the US, if they commit to lowering standards. That's what Tory brexiters have been aiming for.

[Sylar]

Yet many would argue for more immigration even though as you say we don't have the capacity?

If you extend that analogy through to its conclusion, you'd have me advocating that people be banned from giving birth or that we adopt principles from Logan's Run.

We're an island. Our resources are finite. Ergo, we rely on being connected in to a global economy.

Around 30% of our food comes from Europe directly. Another 10-15% comes via European ports. That's a significant portion of our stocks and supplys of certain goods, many of which we don't have the climate to produce.

But aye, we'll just boost good ol' British businesses! I hear there's a ferry company in Kent we can get right behind, as it happens...

[Sylar]

I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!

No, we ****ing can't.

I love Brexiteers that have no grasp of basic economics or land management principles espousing this type of nonsense widely just now.

It's fantastical moon-howling bull****.

[JeMeSouviens]

So, your cut out and keep hibs.net HG guide to tonight's votes.

1. The main motion:


"That this House declines to approve leaving the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement and a Framework for the Future Relationship on 29 March 2019; and notes that leaving without a deal remains the default in UK and EU law unless this House and the EU ratify an agreement."

If defeated, no deal goes ahead on 29th of this month. :shocked:

If passed, some ambiguity. There would be a vote tomorrow on an extension but this motion effectively keeps no deal alive and just shifts the cliff edge to whatever date the extension runs to. What if the extension vote fails? Well presumably even though the House hadn't "approved" it, leaving without a deal would still be the default on the 29th.


2. Brexiteers' amendment, based on the "Malthouse compromise" but in the name of Damian Green:

A load of waffle but basically this asks for a short extension and then leave with no deal at the end of it but seek to get a transition period anyway during which they would attempt to negotiate mini-deals on various things. Yes, this is the fabled "managed no deal" already categorically ruled out by the EU. If this passes expect even more international humilation. :rolleyes:


3. Remainers' amendment, in the name of Tory Caroline Spelman backed by Labour, SNP etc and various Tory rebels (Letwin, Boles and so on).

Amends (1) to
“That this House rejects the United Kingdom leaving the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement and a Framework for the Future Relationship.”

Designed to rule out No Deal altogether. Not sure if this has any legal force other than the convention that the Gov obeys the will of the House. May is quite prepared to rip up all previous conventions so ... :worried:



Tories are having free vote on 1 & 2 but whipping against 3.

Labour are whipping against 2, for 3 and for 1 (obv they hope by the time it comes to a vote it will be amended by 3).

All other amendments (SNP to cancel Brexit, TIG for ref#2 etc) have not been selected.

[JeMeSouviens]

No, we ****ing can't.

I love Brexiteers that have no grasp of basic economics or land management principles espousing this type of nonsense widely just now.

It's fantastical moon-howling bull****.

It's incredible isn't it. Just an endless stream of handwaving airy-fairy vacuous pish with not a shred of evidence to back it up. It's all just going to be wonderful because it is.

[jonty]

anyone know if Guy Fawkes is available this evening.

[Hibbyradge]

So, your cut out and keep hibs.net HG guide to tonight's votes.

1. The main motion:


If defeated, no deal goes ahead on 29th of this month. :shocked:

If passed, some ambiguity. There would be a vote tomorrow on an extension but this motion effectively keeps no deal alive and just shifts the cliff edge to whatever date the extension runs to. What if the extension vote fails? Well presumably even though the House hadn't "approved" it, leaving without a deal would still be the default on the 29th.


2. Brexiteers' amendment, based on the "Malthouse compromise" but in the name of Damian Green:

A load of waffle but basically this asks for a short extension and then leave with no deal at the end of it but seek to get a transition period anyway during which they would attempt to negotiate mini-deals on various things. Yes, this is the fabled "managed no deal" already categorically ruled out by the EU. If this passes expect even more international humilation. :rolleyes:


3. Remainers' amendment, in the name of Tory Caroline Spelman backed by Labour, SNP etc and various Tory rebels (Letwin, Boles and so on).

Amends (1) to

Designed to rule out No Deal altogether. Not sure if this has any legal force other than the convention that the Gov obeys the will of the House. May is quite prepared to rip up all previous conventions so ... :worried:



Tories are having free vote on 1 & 2 but whipping against 3.

Labour are whipping against 2 & 3 but for 1 (obv they hope by the time it comes to a vote it will be amended by 3).

All other amendments (SNP to cancel Brexit, TIG for ref#2 etc) have not been selected.

What do you mean "Labour are whipping against 3?" :confused:

[Sylar]

It's incredible isn't it. Just an endless stream of handwaving airy-fairy vacuous pish with not a shred of evidence to back it up. It's all just going to be wonderful because it is.

I've avoided a lot of the public/social media stuff around Brexit for a few months now (I get enough of it at work on an almost hourly basis), but the closer we get the more absolute nonsense the hardliners spew and the harder it is to keep quiet.

Unicorn politics at its finest.

[JeMeSouviens]

What do you mean "Labour are whipping against 3?" :confused:

I mean I'm pish at providing a guide to tonight's votes. :greengrin

Edited. :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

I mean I'm pish at providing a guide to tonight's votes. :greengrin

Edited. :rolleyes:

Phew, thanks.

I thought I'd lost it completely.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Gove is one lippy little tw@t

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!


That's a load of peas, and you know it. :wink:

Where is the land that can be used to increase agriculture?

Do you not think the farming community are not already as productive as possible, or are you advocating the good old WWII spirit of 'Dig for Victory' by digging up our parks and gardens to grow more spuds?

[BroxburnHibee]

She still hasn't listened. Fully expect her to play chicken and bring her deal back to a vote. Probably on the 26th.

[Colr]

No, we ****ing can't.

I love Brexiteers that have no grasp of basic economics or land management principles espousing this type of nonsense widely just now.

It's fantastical moon-howling bull****.

We can get all these lazy *******s out in the fields picking potatoes to replace the immigrant labour they so objected to. Age will be no barrier to service!!

[Jack]

I'm advocating both.

What I'm trying to point out is that we can grow the economy through increased agriculture.

I'm saying it's not all doom and gloom, short term pain for long term gain!

Where is all this agricultural land just now?

Or are you suggesting farmers build a second floor on the fields they have?

[Moulin Yarns]

Increased industry within the UK and access to other markets.

Increase what? basket weaving and knitting? Hang on, we can build more cars, because all major car manufacturers are stopping production and moving it elsewhere.

You are seriously in cloud cuckoo land with your thinking.

[heretoday]

If no deal is on the table surely united Ireland should be as well. That would be a solution to the backstop.

Certainly would!

[Mibbes Aye]

Interesting post. I agree with large parts of it. War and trade are a given, the creation of the UK was an exchange of security on England's northern border for Scotland's economic access to the English (and later Imperial) market.

I think the religious aspect is much more nuanced. There was definitely an anti-Catholic alliance but although Presbyterianism vs Episcopalianism seems like academic detail now, it was literally life and death to the Covenanters! The distinctiveness of the Scots Kirk and its effects (substantial ... mixed ... maybe not go there :wink:) was perhaps the principal reason a separate Scottish identity lived on within Britain. And it definitely did live on. It can be traced through the Jacobite risings (complicated and not definitely not Scots/English but Scottish sovereignty and residual loyalty to the Stuarts were both factors), the Radical war, the birth of the Labour party (home rulers) and all the way through the 20th century and the gradual establishment of an Independence movement. Even in the 1950s, at pretty much the height of "Britishness", 2 million signed the "National Covenant" seeking home rule.

Nowadays, war is still a big factor in why Britain wants to keep Scotland territorywise - think Trident and the strategic importance of the GIUK gap. Trade is much diminished as a glue factor thanks to the EU and its single market, but may become more important, both for and against the continuation of the UK, post-Brexit. Religion, I think has had its day. Although I agree making Islam the "other" is a key strategic aim of the alt-right and their attempt to forge a Trump style nativism in Britain.

I think you’ve taken my post and added a bit more sophistication to it. Your paragraph about the religious dynamics constitutes a thread in its own right. There are massive differences in the way Scotland and England went through Reformation and massive differences as to why. I think Colley’s point is that it united people against an ‘other’, who spoke a different language and practised a different religion, so while the way Protestantism was adopted varied between Scotland and England (and even between different layers in England), the fundamental point was that Catholicism was redefined as something foreign and subversive and the abstract idea of a British identity, in part, was built from that.

[Ozyhibby]

That's a load of peas, and you know it. :wink:

Where is the land that can be used to increase agriculture?

Do you not think the farming community are not already as productive as possible, or are you advocating the good old WWII spirit of 'Dig for Victory' by digging up our parks and gardens to grow more spuds?

Actually our farming industry is nowhere near as efficient as the Dutch. They are now the world second biggest food exporter in the world after America, which is amazing considering the size of the country and the climate.



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[Mibbes Aye]

:confused: That's certainly an (ahem) unconventional take! :greengrin

I think they've both boxed themselves into corners they didn't really want to be in and then repeatedly doubled down on their past mistakes. Still, if it ends with a very soft Brexit or Remain, I for one will judge them both with contemptuous fondness. :wink:

Yeah, I’m not convinced myself, but I just have this nagging thought at the back of my mind about how they will be viewed in the benefit of hindsight.

They are both unsavoury and lead parties whose policies I find somewhere between unsavoury and abhorrent.

Foster has done a job for the DUP though, as Hibsbollah said, extracting maximum benefit for her kind at little cost.

I’m not certain what May’s ultimate goal is, but she didn’t get to the top of the tree by being stupid. I think a lot of other pols would have been deposed by the party just now. Part of me thinks the obvious, she is just playing things out in a desperate bid to cling on. A little part of me thinks that if she does favour Remain (and she was a Remainer), then in order to get to the point of staying in by making it too much of a car crash to leave and necessitating a second referendum, the only way to navigate through the massed ranks of Brexiteers in her party is to play it out this way. It makes her look buffoonish and it causes chaos, but it actually outflanked JRM et al.

But I can’t say I’m convinced of that. The likelihood is probably somewhere between the two approaches I outlined above. Things are complex and not able to be worked to perfect machinations.

[Moulin Yarns]

Actually our farming industry is nowhere near as efficient as the Dutch. They are now the world second biggest food exporter in the world after America, which is amazing considering the size of the country and the climate.



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Partly because the 'farm out' (pun intended) the propogation and growing on of flowers for the huge gardening market to farmers in the UK (honest) :greengrin

[Slavers]

Increase what? basket weaving and knitting? Hang on, we can build more cars, because all major car manufacturers are stopping production and moving it elsewhere.

You are seriously in cloud cuckoo land with your thinking.

Science and technology!

[Sylar]

Science and technology!

Tell me more...I'm intrigued by this vision of a science and tech-centric future!?

Especially as a scientist working in a sector that will be decimated by Brexit.

[grunt]

Science and technology!

That'll be the science sector that thrives on cross border working and having the best scientists from all over Europe working together?
The same science sector that requires government funding and investment to develop new technology, with the EU being a major funder of such investment? Don't expect UK Government to match EU science and tech development funding because they won't.

[Moulin Yarns]

That'll be the science sector that thrives on cross border working and having the best scientists from all over Europe working together?
The same science sector that requires government funding and investment to develop new technology, with the EU being a major funder of such investment? Don't expect UK Government to match EU science and tech development funding because they won't.

Not to mention the problems with visas.

I am going to a huge worldwide event next week with visitors from across the globe, unfortunately one of the tutors from Vermont, USA, didn't get her visa sorted in time (as I understand it) so a couple of workshops have had to be cancelled. The event is over 5 days based at the Corn Exchange, but classes are held at other locations across the city.

[jonty]

Science and technology!

Excellent.
First order of business - they'll need to come up with a working GPS system on a shoestring budget.

And given that many workers in technology are actually remote workers from overseas, that's not really going to work well in the new empire.

[Slavers]

To all the nae sayers!

Brexit - Don't worry about a thing, cos every little thing is going to be alright!!!

That should have been on the side of the Brexit bus and the anthem played!!!

[jonty]

To all the nae sayers!

Brexit - Don't worry about a thing, cos every little thing is going to be alright!!!

That should have been on the side of the Brexit bus and the anthem played!!!

If everything was going to be alright then the PMs deal would have been voted through without a hitch.
It was historical in its failure.
Apparently even brexiteers know a bad deal when they see it.

[JeMeSouviens]

To all the nae sayers!

Brexit - Don't worry about a thing, cos every little thing is going to be alright!!!

That should have been on the side of the Brexit bus and the anthem played!!!

Out of interest do you have any experience in science or tech? I've been working in tech for (gulp) 26 years and I know vanishingly few leavers, none of whom are in leadership positions. The sector as a whole hates it.

[Moulin Yarns]

To all the nae sayers!

Brexit - Don't worry about a thing, cos every little thing is going to be alright!!!

That should have been on the side of the Brexit bus and the anthem played!!!

And the band played 'beLIEve it if you like'

Your head is so much buried in the sand that a dingo just shat on it.

[grunt]

Science and technology!
https://www.researchresearch.com/news/article/?articleId=1380295

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.researchresearch.com/news/article/?articleId=1380295

Chrst almighty. Talk about pulling up the drawbridge!

Is the UK trying to become so isolated from the rest of the world that it will withdraw from major institutions across the globe?

[hibsbollah]

Science and technology!

I know you're probably just after a bite but...

I have two friends (both from outside Europe as it happens) working at Edinburgh Uni who's programmes are directly dependent on European Research Council grants. These grants are going to stop after Brexit and there's nothing in their place from the UK government to replace them. There's dozens of high paid graduate jobs at stake. And that's just two programmes. Like everything else, it's a giant ****show.

[GlesgaeHibby]

To all the nae sayers!

Brexit - Don't worry about a thing, cos every little thing is going to be alright!!!

That should have been on the side of the Brexit bus and the anthem played!!!

You're nothing more than a troll with the amount of pish you've spouted today.

[Mibbes Aye]

Watched a fair bit of the debate, PMQs etc.

Corbyn is a disaster. He comes across as so disengaged with the debate. I don't think he has the intellectual capacity to comprehend it.

He sits there looking like he wants to have a house party to read Pablo Neruda and talk about why the Bay of Pigs was wrong.

Wrong man, wrong position, wrong time.

[hibsbollah]

Watched a fair bit of the debate, PMQs etc.

Corbyn is a disaster. He comes across as so disengaged with the debate. I don't think he has the intellectual capacity to comprehend it.

He sits there looking like he wants to have a house party to read Pablo Neruda and talk about why the Bay of Pigs was wrong.

Wrong man, wrong position, wrong time.

This fanboy behaviour is nauseating. You two need to get a room FFS.

I thought John McDonnell was excellent. Absolutely flailed Philip Hammond, and made the vital link between the cluster**** of Brexit and the disastrous social policies that are devastating lives across Britain.

[Mibbes Aye]

This fanboy behaviour is nauseating. You two need to get a room FFS.

I thought John McDonnell was excellent. Absolutely flailed Philip Hammond, and made the vital link between the cluster**** of Brexit and the disastrous social policies that are devastating lives across Britain.

Remember the point I made about you getting personal when your views were challenged? :greengrin

McDonnell is absolutely intellectually the superior of Corbyn, I agree with that.

The problem is that this cluster**** as you describe it still polls significantly better than the reluctant Islington shepherd - the man who never wanted to be leader but took his turn, because John and Diane had stood and failed, then found himself with the job thanks to Ed making it easier for the entryists and Iraq-leavers to return.

Corbyn doesn't command the confidence of the country. His manifesto is limp in comparison to what Brown was pushing in 1997. He is the reluctant leader in hock to the swivel-eyed like Seumas Milne.

[danhibees1875]

Well that was close.

[Callum_62]

Well that was close.

Probably because taking it off the table hinders our negotiation position

But - delighted


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[GlesgaeHibby]

Probably because taking it off the table hinders our negotiation position

But - delighted


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Was only the amendment. Main vote still to come. Amendment was for us to never leave without a deal essentially strengthening what will be the main vote.

[BroxburnHibee]

Watched a fair bit of the debate, PMQs etc.

Corbyn is a disaster. He comes across as so disengaged with the debate. I don't think he has the intellectual capacity to comprehend it.

He sits there looking like he wants to have a house party to read Pablo Neruda and talk about why the Bay of Pigs was wrong.

Wrong man, wrong position, wrong time.

Was just thinking about this. Why isn't Yvette Cooper leader? She's showing far more leadership than he ever has.

[Callum_62]

Was only the amendment. Main vote still to come. Amendment was for us to never leave without a deal essentially strengthening what will be the main vote.

Whoops, Jumping the gun a wee bit

Notice the sky presenter also getting in a muddle

Hmm, feeling main vote might fail

Hope im wrong obviously

Government now whipping against the main vote apparently - resignations imminent


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[Mibbes Aye]

Was just thinking about this. Why isn't Yvette Cooper leader? She's showing far more leadership than he ever has.

I like Cooper a lot.

She stood in 2015 and was pretty much even with Burnham, well behind Corbyn. As we are aware, Corbyn swept to victory on the back of an influx in Labour membership, not so many who were traditional Labour, and maybe a same-but-different of how Trump got elected - basically a rejection of the consensus and a willingness to back something alternative and a populist rush to support.

I think she also suffered because of being married to Ed Balls, who was widely seen as part of the New Labour dynasty, which he was. He's probably done his public persona wonders with his appearances on Strictly and Bake-Off but during the Blair years he was Brown's chief acolyte and generally considered as a brutal political operator, because he was. And certainly part of the furniture. Come 2015, let alone 2010 he and the rest of New Labour who were left, seemed jaded.

Cooper presents well and is authentic. In 2015 I voted for Liz Kendall for the same reasons but Cooper got my second vote. I would be happy to vote for Cooper today.

[lapsedhibee]

Rees Mogg currently arguing that current motion meaningless because MPs previously voted for something else and put that into law. And still banging on about 17.4 million people. He seems constitutionally incapable of living in the present.

[Callum_62]

Rees Mogg currently arguing that current motion meaningless because MPs previously voted for something else and put that into law. And still banging on about 17.4 million people. He seems constitutionally incapable of living in the present.

Wasnt his constituency a remain vote?


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[hibsbollah]

Remember the point I made about you getting personal when your views were challenged? :greengrin

McDonnell is absolutely intellectually the superior of Corbyn, I agree with that.

The problem is that this cluster**** as you describe it still polls significantly better than the reluctant Islington shepherd - the man who never wanted to be leader but took his turn, because John and Diane had stood and failed, then found himself with the job thanks to Ed making it easier for the entryists and Iraq-leavers to return.

Corbyn doesn't command the confidence of the country. His manifesto is limp in comparison to what Brown was pushing in 1997. He is the reluctant leader in hock to the swivel-eyed like Seumas Milne.

The notion that you would get in a room with Corbyn after your earlier declaration of admiration for Anna Soubrys voting record :faf:, isn't a personal attack, it's just a bit of ad absurdum irony. Keep posting though, I'm enjoying it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Corbyn absolutely tragic in his response to May in the Commons.

FFS, he was reading a script and when it said 'searching' he said 'seaching'.

Incompetent and incapable of making a case to be leader of this country.

And when your competition is Theresa May that's damning.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Whoops, Jumping the gun a wee bit

Notice the sky presenter also getting in a muddle

Hmm, feeling main vote might fail

Hope im wrong obviously

Government now whipping against the main vote apparently - resignations imminent


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Lost due to some of her ministers abstaining apparently.

[Callum_62]

No to no deal voted through 321 to 278


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[Mibbes Aye]

The notion that you would get in a room with Corbyn after your earlier declaration of admiration for Anna Soubrys voting record :faf:, isn't a personal attack, it's just a bit of ad absurdum irony. Keep posting though, I'm enjoying it.

That's good. I like it when you post decent content, rather than sniping at people who you don't agree with. Keep it up, if you can :wink:

[hibsbollah]

That's good. I like it when you post decent content, rather than sniping at people who you don't agree with. Keep it up, if you can :wink:

It's easy work, don't worry.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lost due to some of her ministers abstaining apparently.

Mundell abstained apparently.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's easy work, don't worry.

Good reply :agree:

[marinello59]

Lost due to some of her ministers abstaining apparently.

It’s not clear yet if they were allowed to abstain or not. If not then May has to sack them. If they were allowed to abstain then what does that say to the rank and file party members who had to obey the whip? May must surely be considering walking away.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It’s not clear yet if they were allowed to abstain or not. If not then May has to sack them. If they were allowed to abstain then what does that say to the rank and file party members who had to obey the whip? May must surely be considering walking away.

She can't sack them. This was utterly mental tonight. Meant to be a free vote, May votes against motion tabled by govt and then whips her party to vote it down.

[Jack Hackett]

I'm watching Healey dodge questions with rhetoric and bluster, and I'm thinking WTF! **** off Labour!!!

[Ozyhibby]

Meaningful vote 3 next week.


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[Callum_62]

Meaningful vote 3 next week.


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If bercrow allows.... [emoji102]

I think he deal will get passed thro

Or her deal vs no brexit at meaningful vote

Its the governments own red lines that are making this so darn complicated


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[Ozyhibby]

If bercrow allows.... [emoji102]

I think he deal will get passed thro

Or her deal vs no brexit at meaningful vote

Its the governments own red lines that are making this so darn complicated


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I don’t think it will pass. Can’t see the DUP getting on board and with ‘no deal’ gone there will be less frightened labour mp’s backing her deal. And now that cabinet responsibility has totally broken down there are a lot of payroll tories who will now vote against.


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[Mr Grieves]

This pretty much sums up what happened tonight

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/13/may-loses-a-vote-against-herself-in-a-crazed-night-of-parlia

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t think it will pass. Can’t see the DUP getting on board and with ‘no deal’ gone there will be less frightened labour mp’s backing her deal. And now that cabinet responsibility has totally broken down there are a lot of payroll tories who will now vote against.


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The DUP’s whole history has been based on standing outside where deals are done shouting betrayal.

[HiBremian]

This pretty much sums up what happened tonight

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/13/may-loses-a-vote-against-herself-in-a-crazed-night-of-parlia

Thanks for that, Mr. G. Been getting grief from the wife all night because I couldn’t explain tonight’s implications clearly. Peace in the Hibremian household again.


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[1875godsgift]

This pretty much sums up what happened tonight

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/13/may-loses-a-vote-against-herself-in-a-crazed-night-of-parlia

A very interesting article, explains it very well.

It looks increasingly like May's only objectives are trying to hold her riven party together and her weak government in power.

[Mibbes Aye]

This pretty much sums up what happened tonight

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/13/may-loses-a-vote-against-herself-in-a-crazed-night-of-parlia

Good read and an interesting analysis, thanks for posting.

Is May being driven by events or is she actually helter-skeltering, the way we used to ride bikes or run down hills when we were children, with no idea of what would happen. My instincts are she is a soft Remain and by pushing things as dangerously close as she has, she will end up with a second public vote and a vote for Remain.

In which case, she has played a blinder. It is very risky but if I was in her shoes I think it would be the only way to manage the Brexit camp in her party. Maybe not enough to avoid a split but enough to see matters through. The Tories then indulge in lots of blood-letting, referencing the Corn Laws or the post-Major years. It is hard to see the political paradigm remaining the same but in all truth the country is probably ready for a change.

[Ozyhibby]

Good read and an interesting analysis, thanks for posting.

Is May being driven by events or is she actually helter-skeltering, the way we used to ride bikes or run down hills when we were children, with no idea of what would happen. My instincts are she is a soft Remain and by pushing things as dangerously close as she has, she will end up with a second public vote and a vote for Remain.

In which case, she has played a blinder. It is very risky but if I was in her shoes I think it would be the only way to manage the Brexit camp in her party. Maybe not enough to avoid a split but enough to see matters through. The Tories then indulge in lots of blood-letting, referencing the Corn Laws or the post-Major years. It is hard to see the political paradigm remaining the same but in all truth the country is probably ready for a change.

I think we are heading for a very soft brexit or remain. Tory remainers hold the key now. If ERG and DUP decide to back Mays deal, we need them to decide that a bigger prize is now available.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Good read and an interesting analysis, thanks for posting.

Is May being driven by events or is she actually helter-skeltering, the way we used to ride bikes or run down hills when we were children, with no idea of what would happen. My instincts are she is a soft Remain and by pushing things as dangerously close as she has, she will end up with a second public vote and a vote for Remain.

In which case, she has played a blinder. It is very risky but if I was in her shoes I think it would be the only way to manage the Brexit camp in her party. Maybe not enough to avoid a split but enough to see matters through. The Tories then indulge in lots of blood-letting, referencing the Corn Laws or the post-Major years. It is hard to see the political paradigm remaining the same but in all truth the country is probably ready for a change.

The trouble with the May-chiavelli theory is that the key plank in building the “strategy” would have been completely ****ing up the 2017 election campaign to the point of losing her majority. I’m afraid that tips it from wildly implausible to just wrong.

Occam’s razor says she’s just a hopeless leader with the blinkers on.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think we are heading for a very soft brexit or remain. Tory remainers hold the key now. If ERG and DUP decide to back Mays deal, we need them to decide that a bigger prize is now available.


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I think there is a core of absolute nutters in the ERG who will vote against regardless and I can’t see the DUP backing down. I think she’ll lose mv3 albeit by a smaller margin. Then I agree softish Brexit or Remain. I think SB much more likely.

[Ozyhibby]

I think there is a core of absolute nutters in the ERG who will vote against regardless and I can’t see the DUP backing down. I think she’ll lose mv3 albeit by a smaller margin. Then I agree softish Brexit or Remain. I think SB much more likely.

Soft brexit allows them to say they honoured the referendum.
Great for the snp as well because no border issue in indyref 2 and also gives them a great offer of a seat back at the table in the EU rather than being rule takers like the UK.



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[hibsbollah]

The trouble with the May-chiavelli theory is that the key plank in building the “strategy” would have been completely ****ing up the 2017 election campaign to the point of losing her majority. I’m afraid that tips it from wildly implausible to just wrong.

Occam’s razor says she’s just a hopeless leader with the blinkers on.

:agree:
Exactly.

[James310]

Soft brexit allows them to say they honoured the referendum.
Great for the snp as well because no border issue in indyref 2 and also gives them a great offer of a seat back at the table in the EU rather than being rule takers like the UK.



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Is the best option for the SNP not the UK to stay in the EU? If we are out the EU then if an Independent Scotland wants to join the EU how do we tackle issue we will have a land border with a non EU member?

Also interesting to note the SNP block vote of 35 had major influence last night, you could argue it changed the direction of Brexit as it passed the amendment. But we don't have a say at Westminster do we?

[lapsedhibee]

Missed this 60-second guide when it first came out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm6Id3Qt8Wk

[Smartie]

Is the best option for the SNP not the UK to stay in the EU? If we are out the EU then if an Independent Scotland wants to join the EU how do we tackle issue we will have a land border with a non EU member?

Also interesting to note the SNP block vote of 35 had major influence last night, you could argue it changed the direction of Brexit as it passed the amendment. But we don't have a say at Westminster do we?

A land border is a pretty symbolic and unappealing prospect so it is not something that should just be sniffed at.

But at the moment there is no border between us and the rest of Europe. The people who are on the other side of the potential land border wish to create a border between us and the rest of Europe and many of us do not want to see that happen.

Given the choice, I'll take Hadrian's wall and open access to the rest of Europe, thank you.

I agree with your point about Westminster. What this whole farce has shown us though, is that the entire nation can be held to ransom by minority groups like the DUP.

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite for or talk of "English independence" South of the border. Our English chums must be getting pretty fed up having to consider the opinions of the Scots, the Ulster Unionists and whoever else all of the time.

As for what it best for the SNP - they are a party with Scottish Independence as the priority over everything else. That aim would be most likely to be achieved with us crashing out with a No Deal Brexit, which has now been taken off the table.

What is best for Scotland? Remaining within the EU on exactly the same terms as before. There is no version of Brexit that is good for Scotland.

[grunt]

If we are out the EU then if an Independent Scotland wants to join the EU how do we tackle issue we will have a land border with a non EU member? Presumably by that time there will have been some form of resolution to the question of the NI border. If they find a solution, then that's our precedent?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is the best option for the SNP not the UK to stay in the EU? If we are out the EU then if an Independent Scotland wants to join the EU how do we tackle issue we will have a land border with a non EU member?

Also interesting to note the SNP block vote of 35 had major influence last night, you could argue it changed the direction of Brexit as it passed the amendment. But we don't have a say at Westminster do we?

In a soft Brexit with UK and EU in the same customs territory it won’t be an issue.