Brexit - what will happen next

[Hibbyradge]

TIG breakaway is a success then. No way would Corbyn have done this without the threat of more resignations.


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That's what I hoped would be the outcome. And I'm sure that was the intention.

[Glory Lurker]

Before we get excited, Labour aren't saying what the options would need to be for them to back a referendum, and there is also the question of whether Corbyn can be trusted not to play 19 dimension chess with it.

[Colr]

TIG breakaway is a success then. No way would Corbyn have done this without the threat of more resignations.


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Corbyn hasn’t done anything yet. I expect more sophistry that action from that weasel.

[hibsbollah]

Labour to back moves for second Brexit referendum

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/25/labour-to-back-moves-for-second-brexit-referendum?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Thornberry has just said she will campaign for Remain, Labour will campaign for Remain, and Corbyn will campaign for Remain.

So I think it's safe to say Remain will be on the ballot paper.

It's exactly what I wanted to hear.

[Ozyhibby]

Thornberry has just said she will campaign for Remain, Labour will campaign for Remain, and Corbyn will campaign for Remain.

So I think it's safe to say Remain will be on the ballot paper.

It's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Still need the numbers in parliament for it to pass. Long way from that.


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[lapsedhibee]

Thornberry has just said she will campaign for Remain, Labour will campaign for Remain, and Corbyn will campaign for Remain.

So I think it's safe to say Remain will be on the ballot paper.



Might spook the ERG into voting for The Deal.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thornberry has just said she will campaign for Remain, Labour will campaign for Remain, and Corbyn will campaign for Remain.

So I think it's safe to say Remain will be on the ballot paper.

It's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Me too. Still a v slim chance of ref#2 but without this there was no chance.

[JeMeSouviens]

Might spook the ERG into voting for The Deal.

You would think ... but they do take ****wittery to new heights. If no deal does come off the table and there are almost no backstop changes then the toys will be well and truly coming out of the pram for some of them. Who knows what happens then.

[Ozyhibby]

Might spook the ERG into voting for The Deal.

Maybe some of them but there are a few fundamentalists in there who want a no deal brexit.
It will depend how united Labour is whether it stands a chance.


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[steakbake]

Looks like Labour have shat it and the referendum wouldn’t include Remain. Literally lasted 3 hours.

[grunt]

Looks like Labour have shat it and the referendum wouldn’t include Remain. Literally lasted 3 hours.

There is no point in having a referendum that does not include Remain. IMO.

[hibsbollah]

Looks like Labour have shat it and the referendum wouldn’t include Remain. Literally lasted 3 hours.

Don't know where you're getting that from. Someone's tweet I would have thought.

[danhibees1875]

There is no point in having a referendum that does not include Remain. IMO.

:agree:

What would the options be? Deal or No deal? Surely no one would actively want no deal - it's just banded about as a solution just now because we don't have any "acceptable" deal to put forward and the prospect of no brexit isn't sitting well with leavers.

The government should get the best deal they can then 2nd referendum on that deal or remain.

Unless I'm missing something and there is a sizeable support for no deal over any sort of deal in order to completely sever ties with the EU. :dunno:

[jonty]

If you're in the pallet making business, then you're all good

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-michael-gove-ministers-to-hold-emergency-meeting-over-no-deal-chaos-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

[heretoday]

There's no guarantee a rerun would produce a different result, which is obviously the hope of those advocating it.

I think, for once, Britain will just have to grin and bear the mess we've got ourselves in, although the PM is desperately trying to ensure that we have it both ways.

Remember that Brexit might work out OK. It'll be disruptive at first. If it isn't OK then perhaps the EU will have us back in a few years time. No guarantee of that of course.

[lapsedhibee]

There's no guarantee a rerun would produce a different result, which is obviously the hope of those advocating it.
Some people, yes, but there's also people who see another vote not as a rerun but as part of a ratification process which may be the best/only hope of calming down some of the deep divisions which the first, incredibly poorly thought through, referendum caused.

[ballengeich]

Some people, yes, but there's also people who see another vote not as a rerun but as part of a ratification process which may be the best/only hope of calming down some of the deep divisions which the first, incredibly poorly thought through, referendum caused.

I agree with this. There's indications in opinion polls that there's now majority opinion against leaving so leaving may actually be against the collective will. To suggest that it's undemocratic to test whether the voters have collectively changed their minds in the last couple of years is ridiculous even by brexit debating standards. There's a proposal going to parliament to pass the May deal subject to it then being approved by a referendum. That seems sensible.

When you take out any significant financial product in the UK you get a cooling-off period during which you have the opportunity to withdraw from the contract after you've examined the details. That's how I would see a further referendum on May's deal.

[heretoday]

I agree with this. There's indications in opinion polls that there's now majority opinion against leaving so leaving may actually be against the collective will. To suggest that it's undemocratic to test whether the voters have collectively changed their minds in the last couple of years is ridiculous even by brexit debating standards. There's a proposal going to parliament to pass the May deal subject to it then being approved by a referendum. That seems sensible.

When you take out any significant financial product in the UK you get a cooling-off period during which you have the opportunity to withdraw from the contract after you've examined the details. That's how I would see a further referendum on May's deal.

Nicely spun!

[grunt]

There's no guarantee a rerun would produce a different result, which is obviously the hope of those advocating it. I think, for once, Britain will just have to grin and bear the mess we've got ourselves in, although the PM is desperately trying to ensure that we have it both ways.I've seen discussions this morning that if there's to be a second referendum, the vote should be given to EU people living in the UK and UK people living in the EU. And furthermore there has been at least one call for the four nations to have a "lock" on the decision, such that if any one nation voted against Leave, it would not progress. You may remember that this is what Salmond requested prior to the 2016 referendum, only to be told that such an arrangement was not necessary as the ref was only advisory. Lying b's.



Remember that Brexit might work out OK. It'll be disruptive at first. If it isn't OK then perhaps the EU will have us back in a few years time. No guarantee of that of course.I don't know what news you've been looking at, but EVERY Government forecast has the UK worse off after Brexit. The only question is how much worse off will we be.

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest chat from supposedly-private-cabinet-meeting-but-it's-so-leaky-they-might-as-well-livestream-it:

May to bring meaningful vote#2 on March 12th.

If that fails, she will give parliament a vote offering to proceed with no deal

If that fails, she will give parliament a vote offering to extend art 50

[JeMeSouviens]

Thinking behind the above is that the threat of a loss in either of the 2 votes following the MV#2 will drive the people who fear that loss the most to vote for the deal.

[Callum_62]

Latest chat from supposedly-private-cabinet-meeting-but-it's-so-leaky-they-might-as-well-livestream-it:

May to bring meaningful vote#2 on March 12th.

If that fails, she will give parliament a vote offering to proceed with no deal

If that fails, she will give parliament a vote offering to extend art 50

Leak was spot on

[JeMeSouviens]

Early indications the ERG are not coming onside, nor the DUP. They'll take their chances on hoping for unicorns and/or no deal at the end of a likely to be short extension.

[JeMeSouviens]

ps. if you only want to follow 1 brexit commentator, make it Ian Dunt - https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1100374319421640704 :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Another u-turn from May.

Strong and stable?

Better together?

Pathetic!

[JeMeSouviens]

Even though May has effectively conceded much the same votes the Cooper/Letwin amendment was designed to mandate, they may still press ahead with the amendment because they don't trust the PM to keep her word.

Up until very recently, that would've been a pretty extraordinary turn of events.

[BroxburnHibee]

Even though May has effectively conceded much the same votes the Cooper/Letwin amendment was designed to mandate, they may still press ahead with the amendment because they don't trust the PM to keep her word.

Up until very recently, that would've been a pretty extraordinary turn of events.

And they absolutely should. May's a liar.

[James310]

Even though May has effectively conceded much the same votes the Cooper/Letwin amendment was designed to mandate, they may still press ahead with the amendment because they don't trust the PM to keep her word.

Up until very recently, that would've been a pretty extraordinary turn of events.

Agree they should, she has said before votes would happen and then postponed them.

[JeMeSouviens]

So May's plan appears to be:

- swallow another defeat for her deal
- ask for a 3 month extension
- don't participate in the EU elections

Then at the end of the 3 months she can't ask for another extension because the UK can't continue as an EU member without MEPs. So at that point she thinks she finally has parliament over the her-deal-or-no-deal barrel.

[Callum_62]

So May's plan appears to be:

- swallow another defeat for her deal
- ask for a 3 month extension
- don't participate in the EU elections

Then at the end of the 3 months she can't ask for another extension because the UK can't continue as an EU member without MEPs. So at that point she thinks she finally has parliament over the her-deal-or-no-deal barrel.

But surely id Parliament has already ruled out no deal....


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[James310]

But surely id Parliament has already ruled out no deal....


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Yes, if Parliament rules out a no deal scenario then she can't force it back again saying her deal or no deal. It's either a deal or deadlock which could mean another referendum is increasing in probability now?

[JeMeSouviens]

But surely id Parliament has already ruled out no deal....


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Under May's plan they can rule out no deal on March 29th but not forever. They will just shift the Brexit date out a bit but it will still be a cliff edge.

[James310]

Under May's plan they can rule out no deal on March 29th but not forever. They will just shift the Brexit date out a bit but it will still be a cliff edge.

Is the planned amendment still going ahead tomorrow? It should do and that should rule out No Deal as an option ever.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is the planned amendment still going ahead tomorrow? It should do and that should rule out No Deal as an option ever.

No, or at least not as originally tabled. They are saying they might table something else to keep the PM honest (good luck with that).

But Cooper/Letwin just did what the PM is proposing albeit via Private Members' bill with changes to the HoC timetable to guarantee they had time for it rather than on government time. It never ruled out no deal as an option ever.

[heretoday]

Yesterday saw the start of all sides being a bit more flexible. No doubt things will get postponed for a while but I'll bet there's a deal of sorts at the end of it. They should have had all this sorted out two years ago.

[JeMeSouviens]

The govt has released details of its attempt to bribe Labour MP's in leave supporting areas with a "towns' fund". The TL;DR - not nearly enough pork in the barrel.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yesterday saw the start of all sides being a bit more flexible. No doubt things will get postponed for a while but I'll bet there's a deal of sorts at the end of it. They should have had all this sorted out two years ago.

They already made a deal months ago. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

UK has apparently given up on its attempt to renegotiate in Brussels. MV2 very likely to be defeated now as there is no climbdown room for the DUP/ERG. I expect the scale of the defeat is the next key decision point.

- relatively close, expect May to press ahead with short extension, try to make the cliff as edgy as possible and go for MV3 in June
- big defeat, might see a pivot toward a Labour style softish Brexit

[ronaldo7]

The govt has released details of its attempt to bribe Labour MP's in leave supporting areas with a "towns' fund". The TL;DR - not nearly enough pork in the barrel.

England and Northern Ireland only. Scotland shafted again.

Union of equals they said. 😠

[Ozyhibby]

England and Northern Ireland only. Scotland shafted again.

Union of equals they said. [emoji34]

Any money spent in England will have Barnet consequentials I would think?


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[jonty]

must be a big sofa that they've found this spare £1.6B down the back of.

[Fife-Hibee]

must be a big sofa that they've found this spare £1.6B down the back of.

Somebody must have dropped some of that worthless oil down there at some point.

[Fife-Hibee]

Any money spent in England will have Barnet consequentials I would think?


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Depends where the source of the funding is coming from. Something they will never talk about.

[JeMeSouviens]

must be a big sofa that they've found this spare £1.6B down the back of.

That magic money tree that doesn't exist is getting a lot of shaking these days. :rolleyes:

The really funny bit is if they get post-Brexit and EU structural funding will be replaced by the "Prosperity Fund". They must have been howling at that meeting. :faf:

[danhibees1875]

England and Northern Ireland only. Scotland shafted again.

Union of equals they said. ��

Are you sure that is the case? I've not seen that anywhere.

What I read of it made it sound like the details weren't confirmed but that there would be funding going to all countries.

I think the Barnett forumla also mentioned is only for "new money" which £1.5bn of the £1.6bn apparently is.

[Just Alf]

Are you sure that is the case? I've not seen that anywhere.

What I read of it made it sound like the details weren't confirmed but that there would be funding going to all countries.

I think the Barnett forumla also mentioned is only for "new money" which £1.5bn of the £1.6bn apparently is.BBC news are quite clear it's England only...


They finish up with this though...


"The Department of Housing, Communities and Local Government said there will be additional announcements "in due course" for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland"



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[ronaldo7]

Are you sure that is the case? I've not seen that anywhere.

What I read of it made it sound like the details weren't confirmed but that there would be funding going to all countries.

I think the Barnett forumla also mentioned is only for "new money" which £1.5bn of the £1.6bn apparently is.

The DUP have mentioned that they're due to get an extra £140million. If Barnett consequentials kick in, Scotland should get about £400 million. I won't be holding my breath though, as this tory government have form.

Remember the farmers conned out of the EU cash, and the cash they conned us out of for fort kinnaird.

They'll make up some town refurbishment pish, and we'll get shafted again.

[danhibees1875]

BBC news are quite clear it's England only...


They finish up with this though...


"The Department of Housing, Communities and Local Government said there will be additional announcements "in due course" for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland"



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The £1.6m is England only. I've not seen anything to suggest Scotland will get nothing.


The DUP have mentioned that they're due to get an extra £140million. If Barnett consequentials kick in, Scotland should get about £400 million. I won't be holding my breath though, as this tory government have form.

Remember the farmers conned out of the EU cash, and the cash they conned us out of for fort kinnaird.

They'll make up some town refurbishment pish, and we'll get shafted again.

£400m? That seems quite high. I would have thought it would be c.10%.

[Just Alf]

The £1.6m is England only. I've not seen anything to suggest Scotland will get nothing.



£400m? That seems quite high. I would have thought it would be c.10%.Re the response to "my" bit... So you're agreeing?

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[danhibees1875]

Re the response to "my" bit... So you're agreeing?

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I'm not sure that I am agreeing, but only because I think we're coming at it from different angles.

I think Scotland will get funding, but I don't think we'll get any of the £1.6b that England specifically are getting and is currently being reported on.

If that's agreeing with you then yes we're agreeing. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

21773


scary :agree:


https://www.thenational.scot/news/17469818.us-uk-trade-deal-will-let-corporations-run-riot-with-nhs/?fbclid=IwAR2sAuOkLhirETRCTYgkgsUSZgpqV7sSz4J0Wsil HoZ-1XFHlVXCMejbsmY

[Fife-Hibee]

21773


scary :agree:

Brexit was all one big set up to open the UK up to US capitalism as the EU had too many safety regulations in place that limited trade with the US (and with good reason!)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Brexit was all one big set up to open the UK up to US capitalism as the EU had too many safety regulations in place that limited trade with the US (and with good reason!)



new EU laws coming to combat tax avoidance, i suspect that had quite a lot of dodgy immoral ***** panicking, no doubt the prime ministers husband has been busy

[Colr]

must be a big sofa that they've found this spare £1.6B down the back of.

Not a money tree, though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not a money tree, though.

It's starting to look like a money well. :wink:

[Callum_62]

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/bmw-may-shift-mini-and-engine-work-from-uk-in-no-deal-brexit-11655739


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[Hibbyradge]

Toyota too ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47457219

[ronaldo7]

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/bmw-may-shift-mini-and-engine-work-from-uk-in-no-deal-brexit-11655739


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Toyota too ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47457219

Vauxhall too.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-05/vauxhall-no-further-ellesmere-port-investment-until-brexit-outcome-decided/

[Hibbyradge]

Vauxhall too.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-05/vauxhall-no-further-ellesmere-port-investment-until-brexit-outcome-decided/

Yeah, but people will just read into that what they want to. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

The European Parliament is to retain its offices in Edinburgh until the end of the year, at least. Recognition of the importance of Scotland and the EU citizens living here and the links between Scotland and the EU.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47477629

[Ozyhibby]

It’s likely that May will get her deal through somehow (don’t ask me how because it looks impossible) and then the independence battle will begin. And the EU will be very receptive to Scottish membership.


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[ronaldo7]

It’s likely that May will get her deal through somehow (don’t ask me how because it looks impossible) and then the independence battle will begin. And the EU will be very receptive to Scottish membership.


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Labour will fall in line, for Mays deal.

[James310]

It’s likely that May will get her deal through somehow (don’t ask me how because it looks impossible) and then the independence battle will begin. And the EU will be very receptive to Scottish membership.


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I think if Scotland does become Independent then yes the EU would want us back in the EU. But they would have to break their own rules on some of the eligibility criteria as we don't meet it. But you need to 1) Hold IndyRef2 first and 2) Win it.

I think if the SNP could tie the EU down to a membership deal that was achievable if there ever was Independance then it could make a significant difference. Although I have my doubts that is possible as a lot of ifs and buts. Currency for example, your supposed to have the Euro but that was ruled out last week by the SNP. (Sweden I know don't have the Euro but would they offer same deal for Scotland? That's why I say it would be good to get as much agreement up front as possible)

[JeMeSouviens]

I think if Scotland does become Independent then yes the EU would want us back in the EU. But they would have to break their own rules on some of the eligibility criteria as we don't meet it. But you need to 1) Hold IndyRef2 first and 2) Win it.

I think if the SNP could tie the EU down to a membership deal that was achievable if there ever was Independance then it could make a significant difference. Although I have my doubts that is possible as a lot of ifs and buts. Currency for example, your supposed to have the Euro but that was ruled out last week by the SNP. (Sweden I know don't have the Euro but would they offer same deal for Scotland? That's why I say it would be good to get as much agreement up front as possible)

<suppresses very loud scream>

Ok, for what feels like the 12 millionth time - STOP MIXING THE CRITERIA FOR EU MEMBERSHIP WITH THE CRITERIA FOR EUROZONE MEMBERSHIP.

[JeMeSouviens]

... and on the subject of Sweden.

Sweden has no special deal.
Sweden has been theoretically committed to joining the Euro since 1994.
It doesn't meet the convergence criteria because the Swedish government chooses not to.

8 other EU countries are not in the Eurozone. Only Denmark and the UK have a treaty opt out. The others are theoretically committed to join but choose not to.

I feel the need to shout again: NOBODY CAN MAKE SCOTLAND JOIN THE EURO.

<and breathe>

[JeMeSouviens]

For reference - please read this John/James.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership_en


Membership criteria – Who can join?
The Treaty on the European Union states that any European country may apply for membership if it respects the democratic values of the EU and is committed to promoting them.

The first step is for the country to meet the key criteria for accession. These were mainly defined at the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 and are hence referred to as 'Copenhagen criteria'. Countries wishing to join need to have:

- stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
- a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;
- the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

That's it.

[James310]

OK, do we not need an established currency, an established central bank and a deficit less than 3%? Is that not EU membership criteria, do we meet those?

[Fife-Hibee]

OK, do we not need an established currency, an established central bank and a deficit less than 3%? Is that not EU membership criteria, do we meet those?

Not as an extention of the UK we don't.

[James310]

Not as an extention of the UK we don't.

If we were Independant?

[Fife-Hibee]

If we were Independant?

Any claim one way or another would be hypothetical at this stage. However, the idea that Scotland's "deficit" would be the same as it is now is to assume that Scotlands economy and economic relationship with the UK would somehow be exactly the same as it is now, which obviously it wouldn't be.

The 3% deficit rule doesn't seem to be a concern for the EU however, who are prepared to make Scotland an offer after brexit is dealt with. So Scotland must hold some sort of value to them. Which would explain why neither the UK or the EU want to let Scotland go.

[James310]

Any claim one way or another would be hypothetical at this stage. However, the idea that Scotland's "deficit" would be the same as it is now is to assume that Scotlands economy and economic relationship with the UK would somehow be exactly the same as it is now, which obviously it wouldn't be.

The 3% deficit rule doesn't seem to be a concern for the EU however, who are prepared to make Scotland an offer after brexit is dealt with. So Scotland must hold some sort of value to them. Which would explain why neither the UK or the EU want to let Scotland go.

I don't think it's hypothetical to say we will or won't have an established central bank. I guess it depends on the definition of established but I would say a central bank that is a few years old is not what I would class as established.

The point I was trying (and massive apologies to the poster who clearly got really upset) to make was it would be beneficial if the SNP could get some kind of guarantees before an Indy Ref.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't think it's hypothetical to say we will or won't have an established central bank. I guess it depends on the definition of established but I would say a central bank that is a few years old is not what I would class as established.

The point I was trying (and massive apologies to the poster who clearly got really upset) to make was it would be beneficial if the SNP could get some kind of guarantees before an Indy Ref.

Well until we have a central bank, Scotland can't be legally liable for any share of the UK deficit. The term "Scotland's deficit" get's branded around a fair bit, but there is no such thing at this stage.

[James310]

Well until we have a central bank, Scotland can't be legally liable for any share of the UK deficit. The term "Scotland's deficit" get's branded around a fair bit, but there is no such thing at this stage.

Well the Finance Minister seems to disagree with you.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/derek-mackay-independent-scotland-can-halve-13-billion-deficit-in-a-few-years-1-4882496

[Fife-Hibee]

Well the Finance Minister seems to disagree with you.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/derek-mackay-independent-scotland-can-halve-13-billion-deficit-in-a-few-years-1-4882496

His comments are based on continued economic union with the UK. Obviously independence doesn't occur overnight. It'll be a drawn out process over several years and before that process is complete, Scotland's economic set up with rUK would continue as is.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, do we not need an established currency, an established central bank and a deficit less than 3%? Is that not EU membership criteria, do we meet those?

Jesus wept.

No, those are Euro convergence criteria. Unless/until we want to adopt the Euro we don't need any of those things.

[James310]

So you do have to join the Euro as its one of the accession criteria, but you don't think that applies to Scotland? We will have an obligation that we may choose never to comply with?

[JeMeSouviens]

So you do have to join the Euro as its one of the accession criteria, but you don't think that applies to Scotland? We will have an obligation that we may choose never to comply with?

Yes. The obligation is to join the Euro when convergence criteria are met. Don't meet the convergence criteria - don't (in fact can't) join the Euro. One of the criteria is to join ERM-II, that's the one Sweden has chosen not to meet. As I already said, there are 9 EU countries that choose not to join the Euro, only Denmark and the UK have a treaty opt out.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It’s likely that May will get her deal through somehow (don’t ask me how because it looks impossible) and then the independence battle will begin. And the EU will be very receptive to Scottish membership.


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Could all go down to the wire on 28th, EU give in on something and May gets some form of deal through...mind you there are so many different outcomes possible between now and 29th March.

[James310]

Yes. The obligation is to join the Euro when convergence criteria are met. Don't meet the convergence criteria - don't (in fact can't) join the Euro. One of the criteria is to join ERM-II, that's the one Sweden has chosen not to meet. As I already said, there are 9 EU countries that choose not to join the Euro, only Denmark and the UK have a treaty opt out.

Then surely if you have an obligation to join the Euro, we have established that is part of the accession process, to join the Euro you need to meet the convergence criteria so therefore have an obligation to meet that as well by default?

Just trying to break this down.

[JeMeSouviens]

Then surely if you have an obligation to join the Euro, we have established that is part of the accession process, to join the Euro you need to meet the convergence criteria so therefore have an obligation to meet that as well by default?

Just trying to break this down.

I think I've broken it down as much as is possible. I recommend you move to your next Better Together talking point - how about that one where the UK is hunners of years older than the EU?

[James310]

I think I've broken it down as much as is possible. I recommend you move to your next Better Together talking point - how about that one where the UK is hunners of years older than the EU?

Well I don't think you can commit to one without commitment to the other, especially if EU membership is based on joining the Euro.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well I don't think you can commit to one without commitment to the other, especially if EU membership is based on joining the Euro.

Do your homework.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

[Fife-Hibee]

Well I don't think you can commit to one without commitment to the other, especially if EU membership is based on joining the Euro.

EU Membership isn't "based on joining the Euro". You don't need to meet the euro requirements to be an EU member.

[James310]

EU Membership isn't "based on joining the Euro". You don't need to meet the euro requirements to be an EU member.

But we established a few posts ago EU membership has an obligation to join the Euro? 😂

Croatia, joined the EU in 2013 and trying to meet the convergence criteria and adopt the Euro.

[Callum_62]

But we established a few posts ago EU membership has an obligation to join the Euro? [emoji23]

Croatia, joined the EU in 2013 and trying to meet the convergence criteria and adopt the Euro.

What if they never meet convergence criteria?[emoji848]


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[James310]

What if they never meet convergence criteria?[emoji848]


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You don't join as I was told, but you still have that obligation to meet it.

My point is a point of logic, if you have to agree to adopt the Euro for EU membership you by default accept to meet the convergence criteria to adopt the Euro.

Now you can willfully ignore it and never really put any effort into meeting the criteria but the point still stands that you are supposed to be aspiring towards it.

[Fife-Hibee]

You don't join as I was told, but you still have that obligation to meet it.

My point is a point of logic, if you have to agree to adopt the Euro for EU membership you by default accept to meet the convergence criteria to adopt the Euro.

Now you can willfully ignore it and never really put any effort into meeting the criteria but the point still stands that you are supposed to be aspiring towards it.

So you admit that we don't actually have to join the Euro to be an EU Member then?

[James310]

So you admit that we don't actually have to join the Euro to be an EU Member then?

Do you admit we have an obligation to meet the convergence criteria?

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you admit we have an obligation to meet the convergence criteria?

Not legally no. We can take forever if we wish.

[ronaldo7]

Jesus wept.

No, those are Euro convergence criteria. Unless/until we want to adopt the Euro we don't need any of those things.

James, or John is doing some top trolling tonight.

😋

[James310]

James, or John is doing some top trolling tonight.

😋

I am the one being trolled if its anyone. I am merely sticking to the facts and following the logic.

As per usual on here though say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or Independance the gang jumps on you and attacks.

[ronaldo7]

I am the one being trolled if its anyone. I am merely sticking to the facts and following the logic.

As per usual on here though say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or Independance the gang jumps on you and attacks.

So, is it, James or John? Which do you use for your Sunday name?😁

I also see this, "say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or independence, and the gang jumps on you", pish.

You've been doing it for yonks.

I'm all for each to their own, and both you and James are entitled to your opinions.

Peace brother. ✌

[Fife-Hibee]

I am the one being trolled if its anyone. I am merely sticking to the facts and following the logic.

As per usual on here though say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or Independance the gang jumps on you and attacks.

Your "logic" seems to be that Scotland must join the euro, even if they can take forever to do so.

[James310]

So, is it, James or John? Which do you use for your Sunday name?😁

I also see this, "say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or independence, and the gang jumps on you", pish.

You've been doing it for yonks.

I'm all for each to their own, and both you and James are entitled to your opinions.

Peace brother. ✌

Peace Fife-Hibee. ✌️

[ronaldo7]

Peace Fife-Hibee. ✌️

:faf::faf::faf:

You've got me bang to rights JJ.:wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

I am the one being trolled if its anyone. I am merely sticking to the facts and following the logic.

As per usual on here though say anything that seems remotely like anti SNP or Independance the gang jumps on you and attacks.

I'll say it again, do your homework. Become a member of the EU does not depend on acceptance of the Euro.

[Moulin Yarns]

But we established a few posts ago EU membership has an obligation to join the Euro? 😂

Croatia, joined the EU in 2013 and trying to meet the convergence criteria and adopt the Euro.

So you can join the EU before adoption of the Euro. Glad we cleared that up.

[James310]

So you can join the EU before adoption of the Euro. Glad we cleared that up.

*sigh*

Yes you can join the EU and you don't immediately have to adopt the Euro on day 1, but buy joining the EU you also agree to adopt the Euro, by agreeing to adopt the Euro you therefore agree to meet the convergence criteria.

You can if you wish choose to never meet that criteria or ignore it, but you still have that obligation to meet it unless the EU change their rules.

Enough now.

[Hibbyradge]

What a stupid argument!

The only way Scotland can join the EU is if it agrees to adopt Hercule Poirot as patron saint at some point in the future.

There will be no pressure on the country to do this, nor a timescale or deadline.

Do you think that this commitment would put anyone off joining?

[Hibbyradge]

A more realistic analogy is asking for a Catholic priest to marry you.

Before this happens, you must agree to bring your children up in the Catholic faith.

If you then choose not to have children, you're not kicked out of the church and/or your marriage isn't annuled.

[James310]

What a stupid argument!

The only way Scotland can join the EU is if it agrees to adopt Hercule Poirot as patron saint at some point in the future.

There will be no pressure on the country to do this, nor a timescale or deadline.

Do you think that this commitment would put anyone off joining?

So the EU just have them for a laugh then. OK.

[JeMeSouviens]

*sigh*

Yes you can join the EU and you don't immediately have to adopt the Euro on day 1, but buy joining the EU you also agree to adopt the Euro, by agreeing to adopt the Euro you therefore agree to meet the convergence criteria.

You can if you wish choose to never meet that criteria or ignore it, but you still have that obligation to meet it unless the EU change their rules.

Enough now.

Or, as the example of Sweden shows, day 9126.

You do realise that crying wolf over this is going to undermine your next BT talking point?

[Hibbyradge]

So the EU just have them for a laugh then. OK.

I'll commit to anything if I don't have to do anything tangible to make it happen.

Scotland can commit to joining the Euro in 2050. When it gets to 2045, they can extend the target date to 2075.

And so on, and finitum.

I don't understand why you're finding that so hard to comprehend.

You didn't respond to my Catholic wedding example which I thought was quite close to the Euro analogy.

[Jack Hackett]

A more realistic analogy is asking for a Catholic priest to marry you.

Before this happens, you must agree to bring your children up in the Catholic faith.

If you then choose not to have children, you're not kicked out of the church and/or your marriage isn't annuled.

Catholic priests are not allowed to marry... Or have children, so your analogy is invalid :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Catholic priests are not allowed to marry... Or have children, so your analogy is invalid :greengrin

You are Theresa May and I claim my £5.00

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47497183/brexit-will-self-and-mark-francois-on-racists-and-anti-semites :take that:eek:

[cabbageandribs1875]

i'm still convinced the dancing queen will cancel brexit :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

i'm still convinced the dancing queen will cancel brexit :greengrin

The latest on BBC suggests a rejection of the deal could lead to a long delay or indeed no Brexit at all.

[cabbageandribs1875]

The latest on BBC suggests a rejection of the deal could lead to a long delay or indeed no Brexit at all.


she still uses 'we might not leave at all' , whilst she uses that line it only convinces me more and more that she's really wanting a way out, i think she's probably used the line 'to honour the democratic vote' approx 290 times and yet i've been convinced for several months now she simply does not want to be the PM to deliver brexit, even if she ends up a proven liar, she will cite every excuse possible she can and will renege, if she cancels brexit the vote for independence in Scotland will fall quite a bit i would think, she will then be hailed the saviour of Britain, the UK...and Europe, the signs were there when she started kicking out(or they started resigning) the brexiteers after her wee chequers soiree.

[Fife-Hibee]

she still uses 'we might not leave at all' , whilst she uses that line it only convinces me more and more that she's really wanting a way out, i think she's probably used the line 'to honour the democratic vote' approx 290 times and yet i've been convinced for several months now she simply does not want to be the PM to deliver brexit, even if she ends up a proven liar, she will cite every excuse possible she can and will renege, if she cancels brexit the vote for independence in Scotland will fall quite a bit i would think, she will then be hailed the saviour of Britain, the UK...and Europe, the signs were there when she started kicking out(or they started resigning) the brexiteers after her wee chequers soiree.

Can't see a UKIP uprising in England putting a dampener on Scottish Independence tbh.

[Tornadoes70]

Can't see a UKIP uprising in England putting a dampener on Scottish Independence tbh.

There's no such thing.

You can't have it both ways - Scottish partnership within the UK or Scotland being absorbed and controlled by Germay/France etc EU.

Scotland would not be 'independent'.

Be honest with the Scots, we deserve better than the nonsense you drivel always.

Mon the Cabbage and Scotland within the partnership UK.

:flag:

[Future17]

There's no such thing.

You can't have it both ways - Scottish partnership within the UK or Scotland being absorbed and controlled by Germay/France etc EU.

Scotland would not be 'independent'.

Be honest with the Scots, we deserve better than the nonsense you drivel always.

Mon the Cabbage and Scotland within the partnership UK.

:flag:

I enjoy the challenge of coming on here on a Saturday and Sunday morning and trying to decipher the post-closing-time ramblings of someone who probably fell asleep with their face in a fish supper.

[Jack Hackett]

i'm still convinced the dancing queen will cancel brexit :greengrin

I've been thinking for a while that the whole 'kicking the can down the road' strategy is to this end, and the whole 'Brexit is Brexit' bs has been nothing but lip service to her right wing effwits

Fingers crossed

[lapsedhibee]

I enjoy the challenge of coming on here on a Saturday and Sunday morning and trying to decipher the post-closing-time ramblings of someone who probably fell asleep with their face in a fish supper.
:tee hee:

[jonty]

she still uses 'we might not leave at all' , whilst she uses that line it only convinces me more and more that she's really wanting a way out, i think she's probably used the line 'to honour the democratic vote' approx 290 times and yet i've been convinced for several months now she simply does not want to be the PM to deliver brexit, even if she ends up a proven liar, she will cite every excuse possible she can and will renege, if she cancels brexit the vote for independence in Scotland will fall quite a bit i would think, she will then be hailed the saviour of Britain, the UK...and Europe, the signs were there when she started kicking out(or they started resigning) the brexiteers after her wee chequers soiree.

All she needs to do, is say she's watched the media, listened to the people and MPs. She's concluded that the current deal, the only one available, is not what the 37% voted for. She's going to stop the rot, get the economy stable again and stop foreign investment leaving the country.

But that all sounds too sensible.

In the tory manifesto she can put in another for another Brexit discussion (if she's brave enough).

[Just Alf]

There's no such thing.

You can't have it both ways - Scottish partnership within the UK or Scotland being absorbed and controlled by Germay/France etc EU.

Scotland would not be 'independent'.

Be honest with the Scots, we deserve better than the nonsense you drivel always.

Mon the Cabbage and Scotland within the partnership UK.

:flag:I now really think you're trolling and being lucky to get away with it.

There's clear evidence that even a 'region' in Belgium has more say in a European context than Scotland does within the UK and as a side effect the EU.

If Scotland were to be part of the EU in its own right not only we would be able to veto trade deals (like that Belgian region did with the EU Canada one) we'd be able to actually act legally on our (and Wales, Northern Ireland's) democratic decision to not have GM crops rather than having to follow the UK decision to allow it as 'negotiated' and voted for by the UK government. (as an example)

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[lapsedhibee]

This week's Brexit Secretary complaining that the EU is trying to rerun old arguments. Talk about not doing irony. :bitchy:

[Just Alf]

This week's Brexit Secretary complaining that the EU is trying to rerun old arguments. Talk about not doing irony. :bitchy:Ha ha... Saw that also... They've (EU) been so clear from day one about protecting the good Friday agreement etc that its unbelievable that anyone would be taken in by that rhetoric.... Unfortunately there will still be people that genuinely belive its the EU fault that we can't come up with an alternative.

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[Slavers]

I now really think you're trolling and being lucky to get away with it.

There's clear evidence that even a 'region' in Belgium has more say in a European context than Scotland does within the UK and as a side effect the EU.

If Scotland were to be part of the EU in its own right not only we would be able to veto trade deals (like that Belgian region did with the EU Canada one) we'd be able to actually act legally on our (and Wales, Northern Ireland's) democratic decision to not have GM crops rather than having to follow the UK decision to allow it as 'negotiated' and voted for by the UK government. (as an example)

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Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?

[Moulin Yarns]

Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?

They would have more seats at the EU than they currently have.

[Hibrandenburg]

Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?

They'd certainly have more self determination.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?

Well it can't be any less than the representation we get at Westminster, seeing as we effect pretty much nothing at all. Or perhaps by "representation" you mean the way in which our elected MPs are treated. But then I can only assume you never watch PMQs.

I'd rather we had no representation in a parliament with far less influence over our country than no representation in a parliament that dictates to us on a daily basis.

[marinello59]

Well it can't be any less than the representation we get at Westminster, seeing as we effect pretty much nothing at all. Or perhaps by "representation" you mean the way in which our elected MPs are treated. But then I can only assume you never watch PMQs.

I'd rather we had no representation in a parliament with far less influence over our country than no representation in a parliament that dictates to us on a daily basis.

No representation at Westminster? That’s a fairly damning appraisal of the SNP group then. I guess you feel they are as effective as what SNP supporters used to call the feeble fifty.
Nobody watches PMQs except you by the way, that’s why the rest of us don’t share your superior insight.

[James310]

I think we have around 1% to 2% of elected representatives in the EU Parliament, and around 10% of elected representatives in Westminster.

The Brexit arguments were we wanted more control, we wanted to make our decisions and be in control of our own destiny. Sound familiar?

[Bristolhibby]

Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?

Right to veto treaties for a start.

[Hibrandenburg]

Right to veto treaties for a start.

Ability to leave the union without having to beg to do so for another.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I think we have around 1% to 2% of elected representatives in the EU Parliament, and around 10% of elected representatives in Westminster.

The Brexit arguments were we wanted more control, we wanted to make our decisions and be in control of our own destiny. Sound familiar?

Are you a Brexiteer James?

[Tornadoes70]

Ability to leave the union without having to beg to do so for another.

And do what exactly? Out of the one that includes our closest island neighbours then out-with the one led by Germany and France. What would little Scotlanders advise we do then?

Go it alone? Whae's like us eh.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Hibrandenburg]

And do what exactly? Out of the one that includes our closest island neighbours then out-with the one led by Germany and France. What would little Scotlanders advise we do then?

Go it alone? Whae's like us eh.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Whae's like oanybody that's ever wanted tae return to UK rule? Damn few and they're awe non existent.

[Callum_62]

Id rather be in a union who stands by one of its smallest members than in one who totally disregards the voice of theres

The Brexit negotiations has surely at least highlighted that to everyone?


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[Tornadoes70]

Whae's like oanybody that's ever wanted tae return to UK rule? Damn few and they're awe non existent.

When Labour are in power great things are normally achieved. Good for the whole of the UK and the wider world.

The little scotlander snp would take Scotland into the greed is good EU that is selling its soul to no good world order capitalism.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[1875godsgift]

When Labour are in power great things are normally achieved. Good for the whole of the UK and the wider world.

The little scotlander snp would take Scotland into the greed is good EU that is selling its soul to no good world order capitalism.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

Are you Jeremy Corbyn?

[Tornadoes70]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

Are you Jeremy Corbyn?

I'm especially pleased at this comparison.

i consider myself as a compassionate left of center socialist who hates both right wing thatcherites and nationalist uber stalinist communistas.

Jeremy Corbyn hates the nationalist snp type racist nazism that sucks in ordinary folk to supporting them.

Don't be fooled by nationalist nazism have a look at what Jeremy and our force for good Labour is offering beforehand.

You know it makes sense Rodney.

Mon Labour!!!

[Just Alf]

Can you show your evidence that an independent Scotland would have more representation at the EU parliament than the UK one?You actually quoted two bits of evidence.



Or rather the evidence that our elected representatives would have a more "meaningful" say.

[Fife-Hibee]

Tornadoes70 hates nationalism and the right....

Unless it's British nationalism in the form of a pro-racist, pro-fascist right wing agenda.

[Fife-Hibee]

No representation at Westminster? That’s a fairly damning appraisal of the SNP group then. I guess you feel they are as effective as what SNP supporters used to call the feeble fifty.
Nobody watches PMQs except you by the way, that’s why the rest of us don’t share your superior insight.

They were called the "feeble fifty" because they were quite content with Scotland having no real input on UK matters that impacted Scotland, as long as they were earning a cushty number for themselves.

The SNP are also ineffective at Westminster, but they recognize the issue for what it is, it doesn't matter who we send down there to "represent" us, because any democratically elected representatives that Scotland sends down there are scoffed at, insulted and in some cases, even told to kill themselves.

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.

[McD]

I'm especially pleased at this comparison.

i consider myself as a compassionate left of center socialist who hates both right wing thatcherites and nationalist uber stalinist communistas.

Jeremy Corbyn hates the nationalist snp type racist nazism that sucks in ordinary folk to supporting them.

Don't be fooled by nationalist nazism have a look at what Jeremy and our force for good Labour is offering beforehand.

You know it makes sense Rodney.

Mon Labour!!!


based on observation, Jeremy Corbyn also hates acting like a responsible leader of the opposition

[James310]

Are you a Brexiteer James?

No, voted Remain. I believe in Unions and the good the EU does for Scotland and the wider UK. In times like these we should be working together, pooling resources, collaboration etc. Not looking to separate from anything that brings people together.

There was also a large group of SNP supporter's who voted Leave as I think in their head Independance means Independance. Although we don't seem to have any SNP Brexiteers around in this place to tell us their story.

[marinello59]

They were called the "feeble fifty" because they were quite content with Scotland having no real input on UK matters that impacted Scotland, as long as they were earning a cushty number for themselves.

The SNP are also ineffective at Westminster, but they recognize the issue for what it is, it doesn't matter who we send down there to "represent" us, because any democratically elected representatives that Scotland sends down there are scoffed at, insulted and in some cases, even told to kill themselves.

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.

People like me? Could you explain what that means?

[Just Alf]

They were called the "feeble fifty" because they were quite content with Scotland having no real input on UK matters that impacted Scotland, as long as they were earning a cushty number for themselves.

The SNP are also ineffective at Westminster, but they recognize the issue for what it is, it doesn't matter who we send down there to "represent" us, because any democratically elected representatives that Scotland sends down there are scoffed at, insulted and in some cases, even told to kill themselves.

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.Feeble 50 was talked about a lot more in labour circles when they were trying to show that even with 50 seats it was a wasted vote and we'd have been better voting for them.

Broadly agree with your 2nd paragraph.

3rd is pretty poor, M59 has been quite robust on here over the years and is clearly pro indy IF a decent case/argument is put forward.... Your post is sort of the opposite of that.

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[Just Alf]

No, voted Remain. I believe in Unions and the good the EU does for Scotland and the wider UK. In times like these we should be working together, pooling resources, collaboration etc. Not looking to separate from anything that brings people together.

There was also a large group of SNP supporter's who voted Leave as I think in their head Independance means Independance. Although we don't seem to have any SNP Brexiteers around in this place to tell us their story.I know a couple, so not representative at all!.... Both have listened to the Brexit discussions and are now very pro remain.


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[weecounty hibby]

I'm especially pleased at this comparison.

i consider myself as a compassionate left of center socialist who hates both right wing thatcherites and nationalist uber stalinist communistas.

Jeremy Corbyn hates the nationalist snp type racist nazism that sucks in ordinary folk to supporting them.

Don't be fooled by nationalist nazism have a look at what Jeremy and our force for good Labour is offering beforehand.

You know it makes sense Rodney.

Mon Labour!!!

I can send Godwin's law coming in shortly but here goes anyway. How ironic that Jeremy hates Nazis and national socialism but seems pretty indifferent to stamping out in his own party one of the Nazis main policies. You know the anti semitism that Labour MPs are leaving the party for. Corbyn is one of the weakest leaders of a party I have ever seen. A career protester who can't handle the big job. Still lagging behind the worst govt and PM in my lifetime says it all about him and his party
Edit. And I am not suggesting that anyone within Labour would take the ultra extreme views of the Nazis party

[Jack]

And do what exactly? Out of the one that includes our closest island neighbours then out-with the one led by Germany and France. What would little Scotlanders advise we do then?

Go it alone? Whae's like us eh.

Mon the Cabbage!!!


You only need to look at the Brexit negotiations to see the difference in how the different unions treat their members.

The EU are right behind ROI ensuring their wishes are taken into account and respected by Brexit.

Scotland's (Holyrood) wish to be heard in the negotiations are totally ignored by Westminster, our representatives mocked.

[greenlex]

I'm especially pleased at this comparison.

i consider myself as a compassionate left of center socialist who hates both right wing thatcherites and nationalist uber stalinist communistas.

Jeremy Corbyn hates the nationalist snp type racist nazism that sucks in ordinary folk to supporting them.

Don't be fooled by nationalist nazism have a look at what Jeremy and our force for good Labour is offering beforehand.

You know it makes sense Rodney.

Mon Labour!!!
You do know you can be a compassionate left of centre socialist hating right wing Thatcherite and nationalist snp nazi types in an independent Scotland?

[lapsedhibee]

You do know you can be a compassionate left of centre socialist hating right wing Thatcherite and nationalist snp nazi types in an independent Scotland?

Maybe.

[Ozyhibby]

When Labour are in power great things are normally achieved. Good for the whole of the UK and the wider world.

The little scotlander snp would take Scotland into the greed is good EU that is selling its soul to no good world order capitalism.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Every single Labour government, every single one, has left power with unemployment higher than when they entered power. Great things?


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[hibsbollah]

Every single Labour government, every single one, has left power with unemployment higher than when they entered power. Great things?


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Ah, parrotting David Cameron? Excellent.

That Cameron quote comes with a whole caveat of health warnings; including 1. several Tory administrations have also left office with higher unemployment than they left it, 2. those Labour governments actually REDUCED unemployment in their early terms, so the overall performance of the Blair administrations full period was of unemployment down, and 3. the fairly obvious one that the Labour governments got voted out during global economic downturns, particularly in 1979 and after the 2008 crash in 2011. 4. Its also almost impossible for unemployment figures to increase currently in the UK, because its so much harder to actually get non working benefits. There is a huge number of hidden unemployed who cant get benefits but arent counted in the figures. And 5. 'Every one, every single one' sounds like a lot, but it only refers to two administrations, Callaghan and Blair, because there were no reliable statistics of claimant counts prior to that.

https://fullfact.org/economy/has-labour-ever-left-office-lower-unemployment-it-started/

[Moulin Yarns]

And do what exactly? Out of the one that includes our closest island neighbours then out-with the one led by Germany and France. What would little Scotlanders advise we do then?

Go it alone? Whae's like us eh.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

You are Nigel Farage and I claim my €5

[jonty]

I think we have around 1% to 2% of elected representatives in the EU Parliament, and around 10% of elected representatives in Westminster.

The Brexit arguments were we wanted more control, we wanted to make our decisions and be in control of our own destiny. Sound familiar?

the UK has 73 MEPs out of a total of 751

[James310]

the UK has 73 MEPs out of a total of 751

There are 6 Scottish MEPs.

[Moulin Yarns]

There are 6 Scottish MEPs.

Which will rise in the event of an independent Scotland becoming a member of the EU.

10 or 11 if I remember rightly.

[jonty]

There are 6 Scottish MEPs.

Yes, but you were asking if the brexit argument (taking back control etc) sounded familiar, therefore comparing the UK leaving the EU with Scotland leaving rUK.
Both are at around 10% , the biggest difference being the MEPs voted for 95% of the eu laws, against 2% and abstained the remainder.
(https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/)

Unlike Scottish MPs in Westminster whos influence appears to be minimal.

[Jack]

Scotland would have the same influence as every other EU country.

Our 'Prime Minister' would be part of European Council along with all the other Heads of State/Government. They decide on the policy agenda for the EU.

The European Commission, one commissioner from each country, propose legislation.

So before it gets to the European Parliament Scotland's influence would be as strong as any other member country.

[Bristolhibby]

I'm especially pleased at this comparison.

i consider myself as a compassionate left of center socialist who hates both right wing thatcherites and nationalist uber stalinist communistas.

Jeremy Corbyn hates the nationalist snp type racist nazism that sucks in ordinary folk to supporting them.

Don't be fooled by nationalist nazism have a look at what Jeremy and our force for good Labour is offering beforehand.

You know it makes sense Rodney.

Mon Labour!!!

WTF are you on about “snp type racist nazism“?

You do know Labour can stand in an Independent Scotland?

Hey, they might even get in Power, working hand in glove with the rUK Labour Party. You do know that can happen?

J

[Bristolhibby]

You do know you can be a compassionate left of centre socialist hating right wing Thatcherite and nationalist snp nazi types in an independent Scotland?

Beat me to it.

J

[Hibbyradge]

FFS, just when you thought Labour's position was clear, it changes again.

Brexit: John McDonnell says Labour must focus on defeating May’s deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/10/brexit-john-mcdonnell-says-labour-must-focus-on-defeating-theresa-may-deal?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[hibsbollah]

FFS, just when you thought Labour's position was clear, it changes again.

Brexit: John McDonnell says Labour must focus on defeating May’s deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/10/brexit-john-mcdonnell-says-labour-must-focus-on-defeating-theresa-may-deal?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

He's agreeing with Alastair Campbell of the Ref2 campaign about the sequential order of what to do next. He's already said the next step after defeating the deal is a vote on Ref2 with Labour MPs whipped to support it. Defeat the deal first though.

[Fife-Hibee]

He's agreeing with Alastair Campbell of the Ref2 campaign about the sequential order of what to do next. He's already said the next step after defeating the deal is a vote on Ref2 with Labour MPs whipped to support it. Defeat the deal first though.

What if the deal is defeated, then a vote for another referendum is then also defeated?

Westminster will get the hard brexit they wanted this whole time.

[Hibrandenburg]

What if the deal is defeated, then a vote for another referendum is then also defeated?

Westminster will get the hard brexit they wanted this whole time.

:agree: And with Westminster I include Labour or at least their hierarchy.

[hibsbollah]

Westminster will get the hard brexit they wanted this whole time.

That's rubbish.

There are about 20 Tory MPs that actually want a no deal Brexit, the DUP and at a stretch 5 Labour MPs like Graham Stringer Ronnie Campbell and Kate Hoey. Certainly noone on Labours front bench.

So that's about 7% of Westminster.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's rubbish.

There are about 20 Tory MPs that actually want a no deal Brexit, the DUP and at a stretch 5 Labour MPs like Graham Stringer Ronnie Campbell and Kate Hoey. Certainly noone on Labours front bench.

So that's about 7% of Westminster.

That's if you believe politicians are good honest people who never lie about their true political leanings just so they can generate enough public support to get into power.

[hibsbollah]

That's if you believe politicians are good honest people who never lie about their true political leanings just so they can generate enough public support to get into power.

No. Politicians do lie. But in the case of Brexit, there are a lot more politicians pretending to be more Eurosceptic than they really are to placate their constituents, than the other way round. MPs don't want a no deal.

[Fife-Hibee]

No. Politicians do lie. But in the case of Brexit, there are a lot more politicians pretending to be more Eurosceptic than they really are to placate their constituents, than the other way round. MPs don't want a no deal.

Well if the vast majority of MPs don't want a no deal, then there is zero chance of no deal happening..... right?

What will you say when it happens?

[Hibrandenburg]

That's rubbish.

There are about 20 Tory MPs that actually want a no deal Brexit, the DUP and at a stretch 5 Labour MPs like Graham Stringer Ronnie Campbell and Kate Hoey. Certainly noone on Labours front bench.

So that's about 7% of Westminster.

It's not so much about what the MPs want but more about what's left after they've voted against what they don't want.

They apparently don't want May's deal which they've already categorically rejected once. The deal has not changed since the last vote so that's not got much chance of getting the thumbs up at Westminster next week so next up is the vote on a 2nd referendum. For that to happen most MPs would have to vote against what their constituents voted for and I can't see many falling on their swords by going against that.

That leaves the options to either extend the withdrawal period (why), no deal Brexit or no Brexit. Of those last 3 options only no deal Brexit is within keeping with what both Labour and the Tories have been droning on about for the last 3 years, "the decision of the people must be respected".

[hibsbollah]

What will you say when it happens?

What will I say?:confused:
Erm, probably 'goodness me' or 'blimey' or something. Or if im in Sainsburys at that exact moment i might be asking a random felly where the keep their chorizo.

[hibsbollah]

It's not so much about what the MPs want but more about what's left after they've voted against what they don't want.

They apparently don't want May's deal which they've already categorically rejected once. The deal has not changed since the last vote so that's not got much chance of getting the thumbs up at Westminster next week so next up is the vote on a 2nd referendum. For that to happen most MPs would have to vote against what their constituents voted for and I can't see many falling on their swords by going against that.

That leaves the options to either extend the withdrawal period (why), no deal Brexit or no Brexit. Of those last 3 options only no deal Brexit is within keeping with what both Labour and the Tories have been droning on about for the last 3 years, "the decision of the people must be respected".

Thats a reasonable analysis. I think an extension of the withdrawal period is the most likely.

[marinello59]

They were called the "feeble fifty" because they were quite content with Scotland having no real input on UK matters that impacted Scotland, as long as they were earning a cushty number for themselves.

The SNP are also ineffective at Westminster, but they recognize the issue for what it is, it doesn't matter who we send down there to "represent" us, because any democratically elected representatives that Scotland sends down there are scoffed at, insulted and in some cases, even told to kill themselves.

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.

I’ll ask again, could you explain your people like me comment?

[Hibbyradge]

He's agreeing with Alastair Campbell of the Ref2 campaign about the sequential order of what to do next. He's already said the next step after defeating the deal is a vote on Ref2 with Labour MPs whipped to support it. Defeat the deal first though.

That's what he previously said.

Now the line is;

Defeat May's deal
Try to negotiate a better one (how?)
Go for a GE
Ref 2

"...preventing a reckless deal that Theresa May is bringing forward, preventing a no deal, looking to see how we can construct a deal which we think could protect jobs and the economy, and failing that going for a general election or failing that going back to the people…"

[hibsbollah]

That's what he previously said.

Now the line is;

Defeat May's deal
Try to negotiate a better one (how?)
Go for a GE
Ref 2

"...preventing a reckless deal that Theresa May is bringing forward, preventing a no deal, looking to see how we can construct a deal which we think could protect jobs and the economy, and failing that going for a general election or failing that going back to the people…"

I know, we're probably reading the same article. I just don't see how that changes from the position before. It's just a matter of emphasis. I'm remaining positive...

[ballengeich]

That's what he previously said.

Now the line is;

Defeat May's deal
Try to negotiate a better one (how?)
Go for a GE
Ref 2

"...preventing a reckless deal that Theresa May is bringing forward, preventing a no deal, looking to see how we can construct a deal which we think could protect jobs and the economy, and failing that going for a general election or failing that going back to the people…"

All by 29th March? What's the short-term plan?

[Jack Hackett]

19 days...Tick-tock!

[Colr]

19 days...Tick-tock!

I never did book that cheap flight to Madrid on 29th!

[Hibbyradge]

I never did book that cheap flight to Madrid on 29th!

Yesterday I bit the bullet and booked a flight to Mallorca on 1 April.

More Fool me? :dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats a reasonable analysis. I think an extension of the withdrawal period is the most likely.

I think you're right in respect of the UK asking for an extension, I'm not sure that the EU will grant it though, all members have to unanimously agree to extend and they'll have to be given a good reason for doing so. It's a big ask.

[Callum_62]

I think you're right in respect of the UK asking for an extension, I'm not sure that the EU will grant it though, all members have to unanimously agree to extend and they'll have to be given a good reason for doing so. It's a big ask.

Cant the biggest member just decide what to do?

I though all unions were like that?


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[lapsedhibee]

Tories now advising May to abandon meaningful vote on Tuesday and replace it with a motion which can be supported by all (Tories, presumably). Haven't we already had that - the Brady amendment?

If a disaster movie of all this ever gets made, Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell are shoe-ins for the leads.

[Ozyhibby]

Tories now advising May to abandon meaningful vote on Tuesday and replace it with a motion which can be supported by all (Tories, presumably). Haven't we already had that - the Brady amendment?

If a disaster movie of all this ever gets made, Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell are shoe-ins for the leads.

It’s amazing how they think that having a vote on something else altogether just so they can all agree on something is actually a substitute for doing their actual job.
Wonder what this vote to unite the tories be? A motion calling a Labour mp’s nincompoops? That should get passed no bother.
Won’t change brexit though.


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[HiBremian]

Tories now advising May to abandon meaningful vote on Tuesday and replace it with a motion which can be supported by all (Tories, presumably). Haven't we already had that - the Brady amendment?

If a disaster movie of all this ever gets made, Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell are shoe-ins for the leads.

This what I've suspected all along. How many promises has May actually kept?

I'm guessing the Groundhog will be played Farage?

[HiBremian]

Cant the biggest member just decide what to do?

I though all unions were like that?


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:greengrin :top marks

[lapsedhibee]

ERG Baker has got bored with declaring membership of the EU = getting overrun by Germany. Now claiming Ireland is the threat. Does Ireland have nukes?

[cabbageandribs1875]

21804


:hmmm:think harder Mr Davis, think harder

[Moulin Yarns]

I think you're right in respect of the UK asking for an extension, I'm not sure that the EU will grant it though, all members have to unanimously agree to extend and they'll have to be given a good reason for doing so. It's a big ask.

I think you are underestimating the 27. I would expect they have discussed this at length and are already prepared to extend article 30.

[Ozyhibby]

This could have been Edinburgh had people not fallen for the better together nonsense.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/dublin-in-a-league-of-its-own-as-brexodus-strikes-london-1.3821678?mode=amp#.XIZ9-WTryLM.twitter


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[Fife-Hibee]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53484847_10157276026409078_882571691488706560_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=9220cd115f16acf630b77433188537b4&oe=5D1416D2

48% (according to this PB poll) would choose no-deal brexit over Scotland leaving the UK. I really have to wonder what goes on in these peoples minds to make them come to the conclusion that this would be a better out come for Scotland. It must require some bizarre level of mental gymnastics.

[SHODAN]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53484847_10157276026409078_882571691488706560_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=9220cd115f16acf630b77433188537b4&oe=5D1416D2

48% (according to this PB poll) would choose no-deal brexit over Scotland leaving the UK. I really have to wonder what goes on in these peoples minds to make them come to the conclusion that this would be a better out come for Scotland. It must require some bizarre level of mental gymnastics.

There are a lot of intelligent, well read and well informed people that cannot let go of their emotional tie to the UK, no matter what the argument is. I know this because I know quite a few of them. When being British is part of your identity (and not necessarily in a nationalist way), it's very difficult to let go of that.

I'd dread to think what the results of a poll would be if we asked people to choose between Scotland being an independent country with guaranteed EU status, and a no-deal Brexit UK dissolving the Scottish Parliament and imposing direct rule. It'd be a lot closer than we think, I suspect.

[Fife-Hibee]

There are a lot of intelligent, well read and well informed people that cannot let go of their emotional tie to the UK, no matter what the argument is. I know this because I know quite a few of them. When being British is part of your identity (and not necessarily in a nationalist way), it's very difficult to let go of that.

I'd dread to think what the results of a poll would be if we asked people to choose between Scotland being an independent country with guaranteed EU status, and a no-deal Brexit UK dissolving the Scottish Parliament and imposing direct rule. It'd be a lot closer than we think, I suspect.

You're right and it's terrifying. I can guarantee you that it will come down to that at some point when the tories (bizarrely) feel confident that they can win a referendum on desolving the Scottish Parliament and replacing it with direct rule in Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

It's not so much about what the MPs want but more about what's left after they've voted against what they don't want.

They apparently don't want May's deal which they've already categorically rejected once. The deal has not changed since the last vote so that's not got much chance of getting the thumbs up at Westminster next week so next up is the vote on a 2nd referendum. For that to happen most MPs would have to vote against what their constituents voted for and I can't see many falling on their swords by going against that.

That leaves the options to either extend the withdrawal period (why), no deal Brexit or no Brexit. Of those last 3 options only no deal Brexit is within keeping with what both Labour and the Tories have been droning on about for the last 3 years, "the decision of the people must be respected".

Thing is, if they vote against their constituents, there’s still another party who would also vote against their constiuents.

Remember in the Northern Labour leave voting areas, there were loads of Tory and UKIP voters who voted leave.

Not all Labour supporters from ooop North voted leave.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Likely she has some type of deal or she would not be heading to France tonight.


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[marinello59]

I don't think you lack insight, I think you're well aware of the issue yourself. But people like you simply don't care.

Third time I’ve asked. Would you care to explain your people like you remark?

[marinello59]

Likely she has some type of deal or she would not be heading to France tonight.


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If she comes back with nothing it would be totally humiliating. She must have got something.

[jonty]

If she comes back with nothing it would be totally humiliating. She must have got something.

Didn’t work the first two times.
It’s embarrassing

[hibsbollah]

If she comes back with nothing it would be totally humiliating. She must have got something.

I often wonder if these physical dashes across the channel are stage managed affairs anyway. In today's world of instant video conferencing, where all the relevant aides and civil servants will have been able discuss the details remotely in their rooms, the agreement could have been finalised and sewn up already. As you say, why dash across the Chunnel just to publicly show you've failed again? (unless the intent is to construct the narrative that the filthy Europeans have humiiated her for sympathy reasons?)

[James310]

Joanna Cherry has tweeted that she hears a deal has been done and it will have support from enough MPs to get it through tomorrow.

[JeMeSouviens]

There’s nothing coming like what the DUP and ERG have demanded. So they’d have to decide it’s time to climb down. Possible I suppose but I hae ma doots.

[Fife-Hibee]

This reminds of that episode of South Park where the Canadian Government comes out with the "we didn't get everything we wanted, however...." chat.

Can we just stick Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove... et al on a raft and push it out to sea?

[Callum_62]

So what everyone’s preference?

Surely mays deal is better than no deal?

No brexit, fiscally better than mays deal
Or no deal


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[ronaldo7]

If she comes back with nothing it would be totally humiliating. She must have got something.


Some form of wording on the political statement other than opening the WA.

Rumpole of the bailey will be rolled out to say, all is well on the legal front.

[lapsedhibee]

So what everyone’s preference?


A plot involving gunpowder.

[marinello59]

Some form of wording on the political statement other than opening the WA.

Rumpole of the bailey will be rolled out to say, all is well on the legal front.

That’s exactly what she will have.

[Bangkok Hibby]

So what everyone’s preference?

Surely mays deal is better than no deal?

No brexit, fiscally better than mays deal
Or no deal


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A military coup?

[ronaldo7]

That’s exactly what she will have.

The legal bit will have to pass muster in the ERG. I believe they've got several solicitors ready to peruse the deal.

[marinello59]

The legal bit will have to pass muster in the ERG. I believe they've got several solicitors ready to peruse the deal.

The fear of an extension because we have no deal meaning we end up with No Brexit might be enough to make them receptive to any form of words that will allow them to back track without looking like the hypocritical self-serving tossers they are.

[ronaldo7]

The fear of an extension because we have no deal meaning we end up with No Brexit might be enough to make them receptive to any form of words that will allow them to back track without looking like the hypocritical self-serving tossers they are.

That's what May's hoping for.

[JeMeSouviens]

The fear of an extension because we have no deal meaning we end up with No Brexit might be enough to make them receptive to any form of words that will allow them to back track without looking like the hypocritical self-serving tossers they are.

Maybe, they’ll defo not be able to hide their hypocritical SST-ness though.

[Hibbyradge]

It looks like she's got a concession. Whether it's enough to get passed is the question, but I now don't really know where it leaves the UK, if it does succeed.

[ronaldo7]

Taken from Twitter.

View from Dublin.

1. Withdrawal agreement is unchanged.
2. Joint statement is a legal interpretation of what's in the WA(agreed by both sides)
3.Unilateral statement is Uk talking to themselves.

Let's see how the ERG decipher the "New deal".

[mayo hibee]

A complete disaster for May. She looked like a broken woman out there tonight. Her only hope now is that fear of no Brexit pushes enough MPs into panic approving her deal. She'll certainly get some additional MPs on side but it looks a long shot that she can win tomorrow's vote.

[Fife-Hibee]

A complete disaster for May. She looked like a broken woman out there tonight. Her only hope now is that fear of no Brexit pushes enough MPs into panic approving her deal. She'll certainly get some additional MPs on side but it looks a long shot that she can win tomorrow's vote.

She doesn't want to win it. A hard brexit is a win for her, even if she can't show it publicly. It's exactly what she wanted. She's wasted the past few years fudging things up as much as possible to force this outcome.

I wish people would stop believing the view she's been trying desperately to sell to them. Her views off camera aren't the same as her views on camera. People really need to wake up now.

[James310]

She doesn't want to win it. A hard brexit is a win for her, even if she can't show it publicly. It's exactly what she wanted. She's wasted the past few years fudging things up as much as possible to force this outcome.

I wish people would stop believing the view she's been trying desperately to sell to them. Her views off camera aren't the same as her views on camera. People really need to wake up now.

So if she loses the vote today you think there is a majority in the House of Commons for the No Deal Brexit vote tomorrow?

[marinello59]

She doesn't want to win it. A hard brexit is a win for her, even if she can't show it publicly. It's exactly what she wanted. She's wasted the past few years fudging things up as much as possible to force this outcome.

I wish people would stop believing the view she's been trying desperately to sell to them. Her views off camera aren't the same as her views on camera. People really need to wake up now.

I think you are giving her too much credit, I don’t see her as driven by any sort of idealogy, she’s a cipher. May reminds me of an overgrown Girl Guide driven by a childlike obsession of obtaining her Brexit badge. (Apologies to Girl Guides everywhere, overgrown or not.)

[hibsbollah]

She doesn't want to win it. A hard brexit is a win for her, even if she can't show it publicly. It's exactly what she wanted. She's wasted the past few years fudging things up as much as possible to force this outcome.

I wish people would stop believing the view she's been trying desperately to sell to them. Her views off camera aren't the same as her views on camera. People really need to wake up now.

I'm always open to alternative narratives, but to believe that one you'd have to believe she could have predicted the result of the referendum result three years ago, when she was campaigning for Remain. You'd also have to believe she could have predicted Cameron would resign and she"d go on to defeat much heavy hitting candidates for leadership of the Party, none of which had happened yet when she was campaigning hard for Remain.

In short, if she wanted leave, she would have campaigned for it three years ago. Occam's razor.

[Callum_62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/de41ba6d0130a3f751158f194d639577.jpg

Why would the Scottish public prefer No deal over Mays deal?

I actually dont see that much else May couldve got to be honest

Id rather we wernt leaving at all (although that wouldnt fix the massive divide in the UK) but what is so wrong with the negotiated deal?


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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/de41ba6d0130a3f751158f194d639577.jpg

Why would the Scottish public prefer No deal over Mays deal?

I actually dont see that much else May couldve got to be honest

Id rather we wernt leaving at all (although that wouldnt fix the massive divide in the UK) but what is so wrong with the negotiated deal?


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That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Indy is it. A narrow majority over those two alternatives.

[Callum_62]

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Indy is it. A narrow majority over those two alternatives.

Not really - altho i believe they started below 30% last time to be fair

What i dont get is the 48% that would rather have no deal?

Anyway - both are majorities- in a climate of no appetite [emoji102][emoji3166]


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[BroxburnHibee]

I cant listen to her crap any longer.

I wonder how much the DUP will squeeze out of her today.

[lapsedhibee]

Lot will depend now on whether Rumpole likes his own homework/has a backbone.

[JeMeSouviens]

Not really - altho i believe they started below 30% last time to be fair

What i dont get is the 48% that would rather have no deal?

Anyway - both are majorities- in a climate of no appetite [emoji102][emoji3166]


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A few of them would like no deal, but most of that 48% just don’t want or are scared of the risks of independence. Hopefully some are persuadable.

[Smartie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/de41ba6d0130a3f751158f194d639577.jpg

Why would the Scottish public prefer No deal over Mays deal?

I actually dont see that much else May couldve got to be honest

Id rather we wernt leaving at all (although that wouldnt fix the massive divide in the UK) but what is so wrong with the negotiated deal?


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Some will have that fierce independent streak that doesn't want to be in any Union whatsoever.

Jim Sillars is one and to be fair, makes pretty interesting, consistent and reasonable comments on the matter.

[lapsedhibee]

Rumpole apparently saying No unilateral right to walk away.

[ronaldo7]

Rumpole apparently saying No unilateral right to walk away.

Let's see if the DUP, and ERG have any backbone.

[Fife-Hibee]

BBC and newspapers making this out to be some kind of roaring success, despite the fact nothing has actually changed. Propaganda is in full swing.

[marinello59]

BBC and newspapers making this out to be some kind of roaring success, despite the fact nothing has actually changed. Propaganda is in full swing.
Where? :confused:
The commentary this morning has been fairly sceptical about what May actually achieved last night.

[James310]

60% of Scots don't want another Indy referendum in next 5 years.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2019/03/12/blow-for-snps-independence-hopes-despite-poll-lead/

[Hibbyradge]

Where? :confused:


Not here, anyway: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47533666

Nor here: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/britain-can-still-be-trapped-in-the-irish-backstop-says-attorney-general_uk_5c879732e4b0d936162bc09a?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Nope: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/12/brexit-vote-latest-news-meaningful-vote-theresa-may-deal-irish/

One can understand the Guardian's sceptism: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/mar/12/brexit-mps-vote-theresa-may-backstop-deal-jeremy-corbyn-politics-live

Surely the Mail will be fully behind her? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6797541/What-new-deal-Brexit.html

[hibsbollah]

Whittingdale; "The conclusion of the attorney general’s conclusions .. reads very much as if nothing actually has changed".

[Fife-Hibee]

Not here, anyway: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47533666

Nor here: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/britain-can-still-be-trapped-in-the-irish-backstop-says-attorney-general_uk_5c879732e4b0d936162bc09a?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Nope: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/12/brexit-vote-latest-news-meaningful-vote-theresa-may-deal-irish/

One can understand the Guardian's sceptism: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/mar/12/brexit-mps-vote-theresa-may-backstop-deal-jeremy-corbyn-politics-live

Surely the Mail will be fully behind her? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6797541/What-new-deal-Brexit.html

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/C7D6/production/_105985115_sun.jpg

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/covers/287x361front/2019-03-12.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/781C/production/_105984703_1001ic-dtndt-1-120319-a001c-dt.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A4AE/production/_105985124_12mar1front01.jpg

The headlines give the impression that something meaningful has changed. It's the same deal as before.

[Fife-Hibee]

On another note, this was the "Scotlands Champion" paper front page south of the border yesterday.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/54729001_2295662544039831_3566281113041108992_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=ff18eab5879140287d1f83e9bf464f3a&oe=5D288711

[marinello59]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/C7D6/production/_105985115_sun.jpg

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/covers/287x361front/2019-03-12.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/781C/production/_105984703_1001ic-dtndt-1-120319-a001c-dt.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A4AE/production/_105985124_12mar1front01.jpg

The headlines give the impression that something meaningful has changed. It's the same deal as before.

It’s probably only people like me who will fall for the Sun and the Express stories. ( You still haven’t had the courtesy to explain that one.)
The Torygraph headline is hardly ringing the victory bells and the Guardian’s headline there is openly sceptical.
For a long period this morning BBC Five Live couldn’t find any MPs who would be supporting the deal to appear. Radio Scotland were questioning what had changed. May has done spectacularly badly, anybody in the media who wished to do so would struggle to polish this one up.

[JeMeSouviens]

Where? :confused:
The commentary this morning has been fairly sceptical about what May actually achieved last night.

As is typical, there was a bit of excitement last night (Laura Kuenssberg seeming like she was being paid per utterance of "legally binding") but as the detail becomes clearer it all falls flat.

I think she's heading for another 3 figure defeat tonight.

[JeMeSouviens]

60% of Scots don't want another Indy referendum in next 5 years.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2019/03/12/blow-for-snps-independence-hopes-despite-poll-lead/

But only 32% think there should never be another indyref. That's your solid No vote, the rest are persuadable. We'll slide right down that slippery slope sooner or later. :wink:


btw - the same poll shows a SNP+Green seat projection of 70 for the next SP election. And that's *before* the public are exposed to the smooth charms of Richard the Leopardheart. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

[IMG]

The headlines give the impression that something meaningful has changed. It's the same deal as before.

You need to put your partisanship to one side and keep up.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8615679/brexit-theresa-may-deal-fail-britain-tied-eu/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1098994/brexit-deal-latest-geoffrey-cox-statement-theresa-may-deal

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/12/brexit-vote-latest-news-meaningful-vote-theresa-may-deal-irish/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/12/brexit-cox-revised-deal-reduces-risks-of-being-trapped-in-backstocox-risk-of-remaining-in-backstop-reduced-but-not-eliminated

[Fife-Hibee]

But only 32% think there should never be another indyref. That's your solid No vote, the rest are persuadable. We'll slide right down that slippery slope sooner or later. :wink:


btw - the same poll shows a SNP+Green seat projection of 70 for the next SP election. And that's *before* the public are exposed to the smooth charms of Richard the Leopardheart. :wink:

"Survation poll for the Daily Mail"

Probably a UK wide poll.

[JeMeSouviens]

"Survation poll for the Daily Mail"

Probably a UK wide poll.

It would be, to say the least, unusual to do a Scottish Parliament voting intention poll UK-wide. :greengrin

[SHODAN]

60% of Scots don't want another Indy referendum in next 5 years.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2019/03/12/blow-for-snps-independence-hopes-despite-poll-lead/

If we somehow remain in the EU then you can stick me in with the 60%. Some stability would be nice.

Otherwise, we're completely ****ed and better off out of the Union as soon as possible.

[JeMeSouviens]

The FT are reporting the DUP have (suprprise!) said "NO". They'll not get the ERG hardcore without the DUP.

That'll be that then. Onto the prep for Meaningful Vote #3. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

The FT are reporting the DUP have (suprprise!) said "NO". They'll not get the ERG hardcore without the DUP.

That'll be that then. Onto the prep for Meaningful Vote #3. :rolleyes:

I did pretty well on my prediction last time, I was only 5 votes out from getting the 230 vote defeat spot on:greengrin. She will win over 30 MPs, from last time who want to be won over, a few abstentions, and will lose tonights vote by 180-190.

Then Amber Rudd and a few others will jump the fence and request an extension to article 50 later in the week and the slow road to Ref2 will still be on.

[Smartie]

Rumpole apparently saying No unilateral right to walk away.

Who is this "Rumpole" that I often see people referring to?

[James310]

Who is this "Rumpole" that I often see people referring to?

Attorney General - Geoffrey Cox.

[hibsbollah]

https://youtu.be/L9uj2GY1MHQ

[SHODAN]

The FT are reporting the DUP have (suprprise!) said "NO". They'll not get the ERG hardcore without the DUP.

That'll be that then. Onto the prep for Meaningful Vote #3. :rolleyes:

Yup. That'll be May announcing defiantly that she's Going Back to Brussels™ to secure absolutely zero concessions for another vote next Monday, and the no-deal/extension vote cancelled.

[James310]

DUP likely to vote against the new deal, so she is going to lose again.

I am assuming there is no chance of a majority for a no deal Brexit which will be the vote tomorrow.

[JeMeSouviens]

I did pretty well on my prediction last time, I was only 5 votes out from getting the 230 vote defeat spot on:greengrin. She will win over 30 MPs, from last time who want to be won over, a few abstentions, and will lose tonights vote by 180-190.

Then Amber Rudd and a few others will jump the fence and request an extension to article 50 later in the week and the slow road to Ref2 will still be on.

Sounds about right. ERG has come out against as well. There's not much incentive for Labour rebels to back May if it's a lost cause.

[Ozyhibby]

Attorney General - Geoffrey Cox.

He sounds like Peppa Pig’s dad.[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

But only 32% think there should never be another indyref. That's your solid No vote, the rest are persuadable. We'll slide right down that slippery slope sooner or later. :wink:


btw - the same poll shows a SNP+Green seat projection of 70 for the next SP election. And that's *before* the public are exposed to the smooth charms of Richard the Leopardheart. :wink:

The way Labour MPs vote over the next few days could have a major bearing of the fortunes of the party in Scotland. Things are getting real, Brexit will now start to have a significant bearing on the chances of IndyRef 2 being called and won by the Yes side.

[Fife-Hibee]

Never mind folks. Apparently us jocks aren't "bright enough" to understand the brexit deal.... it's all going to be brilliant. No really, the superior intellect that is Theresa May said so herself.

[Hibbyradge]

Never mind folks. Apparently us jocks aren't "bright enough" to understand the brexit deal.... it's all going to be brilliant. No really, the superior intellect that is Theresa May said so herself.

What did she say?

[Fife-Hibee]

What did she say?

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17494723.nicola-sturgeon-told-she-was-not-bright-enough-to-understand-brexit-deal/?fbclid=IwAR1aXhWPHJI7FUahdEqFhlK1_oJgtXsRcwP4Wh_7 dXVW8GPCJXYAwdTg_vE

[marinello59]

Never mind folks. Apparently us jocks aren't "bright enough" to understand the brexit deal.... it's all going to be brilliant. No really, the superior intellect that is Theresa May said so herself.



Top notch irony.
Any chance of you having the good manners to explain your people like you remark? I keep asking. It seems you don’t have the deceny to back up your sneering at and patronising of others on here with an explanation of just what you mean. I’m assuming it’s a general point rather than a personal attack of that helps.

[jonty]

Whilst I would like to agree with him (the Scottish secretary is an unnecessary post … from past settlements) its the same paper that has the headlines...

1 Nicola Sturgeon told she was 'not bright enough' to understand Brexit deal
2 Nicola Sturgeon facing strong public opposition to Indyref2
3 Brexit: Theresa May breaks Irish backstop deadlock with EU
4 'IRA' claims responsibility for Glasgow and London letter bombs
5 God supports parents smacking children, church tells MSPs

so i know 3 and 5 are complete bollox
2 is questionable.
4 is as close to the facts as you get.

[ronaldo7]

She'll lose tonight by 80-100 🍺