Brexit - what will happen next

[WhileTheChief..]

What’s the difference between a second referendum and a people’s vote?

Why would Corbyn support either when he favours Brexit?

If, as has been said numerous times, the EUs stance is set in stone, then what magic can Corbyn perform to shift them that the Tories can’t?

To those of you who absolutely hate May’s government, other than us somehow Remaining, what is the outcome you’re hoping for?

[JeMeSouviens]

What’s the difference between a second referendum and a people’s vote?

Why would Corbyn support either when he favours Brexit?

If, as has been said numerous times, the EUs stance is set in stone, then what magic can Corbyn perform to shift them that the Tories can’t?

To those of you who absolutely hate May’s government, other than us somehow Remaining, what is the outcome you’re hoping for?

If we can’t remain then Norway+.

A ref2 would keep Corbyn’s membership onside and split the Tories much more.

[hibsbollah]

Plus a hard brexit brings the chance of a possible border poll.

I think that's the real reason. But things are likely to get a lot worse for a long time for their constituents before that ever happens. I wonder how important standing firm on a piece of symbolism is to the lives of most folk over there in the 21st century. Tony Benn used to prefix his oath by saying 'as a dedicated Republican, I solemnly swear...'

Seven votes.

[Ozyhibby]

What’s the difference between a second referendum and a people’s vote?

Why would Corbyn support either when he favours Brexit?

If, as has been said numerous times, the EUs stance is set in stone, then what magic can Corbyn perform to shift them that the Tories can’t?

To those of you who absolutely hate May’s government, other than us somehow Remaining, what is the outcome you’re hoping for?

No difference, just branding.

Corbyn doesn’t have full control of the Labour Party. He is bound by a conference vote to back a 2nd vote if a general election is not secured. That will happen today. If he doesn’t then he could face a challenge in the Labour Party which he could lose due to being in favour of brexit. He won’t want to risk that.
Corbyn won’t get a better deal, that is just his own fantasy imagination. He might have if he had started two years ago but all the negotiating is done now. The EU won’t come back to the table.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I think that's the real reason. But things are likely to get a lot worse for a long time for their constituents before that ever happens. I wonder how important standing firm on a piece of symbolism is to the lives of most folk over there in the 21st century. Tony Benn used to prefix his oath by saying 'as a dedicated Republican, I solemnly swear...'

Seven votes.

If you’re willing to put your constituents through a 30 year low intensity war then a no deal brexit is a picnic I guess.

[hibsbollah]

Why would Corbyn support either when he favours Brexit?



Even if that were true, and I don't believe it is, it's not about him. Brexit policy is a collective shadow cabinet matter, and the shadow cabinet won't want to facilitate a No Deal.

[WhileTheChief..]

No difference, just branding.

Corbyn doesn’t have full control of the Labour Party. He is bound by a conference vote to back a 2nd vote if a general election is not secured. That will happen today. If he doesn’t then he could face a challenge in the Labour Party which he could lose due to being in favour of brexit. He won’t want to risk that.
Corbyn won’t get a better deal, that is just his own fantasy imagination. He might have if he had started two years ago but all the negotiating is done now. The EU won’t come back to the table.


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Yeah kinda thought as much, thanks.

[JeMeSouviens]

The EU signals that a softer Brexit is possible but only if red lines change.


Michel Barnier in the European Parliament this morning, speaking to the UK:


I would like to remind you that your parliament, and unanimously the European council, have always said that if the UK chooses to shift its red lines in the future, and it makes that choice, a choice to be ambitious, and go beyond a simple free trade agreement, which would be quite something, then the European Union will be immediately ready to go hand in hand with that development and to give a favourable response.

"EU sources" elsewhere quoted as saying an A50 extension is the UK's for the asking.

[Callum_62]

Imagine the right wing press if Sinn Fein came and stood side by side with Corbyn

[emoji33]


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[ronaldo7]

The Irish government has tonight asked Sinn Fein to take their Westminster seats and use their vote.

It's in the interests of the whole island of Ireland. And it would be funny as **** watching Arlene Fosters face.

I think hell will have frozen over before they pledge allegiance to queen Elizabeth the first of Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

May seems to be ruling out talking to Corbyn or shifting red lines. Her "strategy" appears to be press on with largely the same deal and hope to pick off back benchers. ****** hopeless. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

The EU signals that a softer Brexit is possible but only if red lines change.


Michel Barnier in the European Parliament this morning, speaking to the UK:



"EU sources" elsewhere quoted as saying an A50 extension is the UK's for the asking.

The problem is that moving towards a softer brexit will split the Tory party a she is terrified of that. I see no way she survives this but at the same time I don’t see how she is replaced. [emoji3]


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[Ozyhibby]

May seems to be ruling out talking to Corbyn or shifting red lines. Her "strategy" appears to be press on with largely the same deal and hope to pick off back benchers. ****** hopeless. :rolleyes:

She can’t talk to Corbyn because he will ask too much of her and will burn down the house if he doesn’t get his way. There is no way he can be seen to collide with the tories to bring about any brexit. He would much prefer them to do it.


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[JeMeSouviens]

She can’t talk to Corbyn because he will ask too much of her and will burn down the house if he doesn’t get his way. There is no way he can be seen to collide with the tories to bring about any brexit. He would much prefer them to do it.


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From May's pov though. She wanted to be the PM that delivered Brexit and got her party and the UK to move on to other things. So she wants an (ideally) orderly Brexit that keeps her party together.

It's pretty clear now that she can only deliver either a soft Brexit or no-deal at all. If she goes with the former she has to talk to Labour as the ERG/DUP are die-in-a-ditch no-dealers. It would probably split the Tories though. If she goes with no-deal then I think she has to at least have the fig leaf cover of saying "well I tried for cross party consensus but Labour just wouldn't work together". It will lead to short term chaos, probably long term hundreds of thousands of job losses and more or less cripple UK manufacturing and farming for good but it would keep more Tories together. :rolleyes:

Either way I think she has to (at least pretend to) talk to Corbyn. But she is too blinkered to see anything. Have we ever had a political leader with less vision?

[JeMeSouviens]

New deadline to take note of -

Times journo Henry Zeffman has worked backward from March 28th, when Corbyn would need to be in power to formally revoke/request extension to A50, through the time taken to swear in MPs and legislate to cancel no deal exit through voting and holding the election through the 14 day period after a no-con vote to winning the no-con itself.

The result is that if Lab don't win a no-con vote by 30th January, that route is closed.

[Ozyhibby]

From May's pov though. She wanted to be the PM that delivered Brexit and got her party and the UK to move on to other things. So she wants an (ideally) orderly Brexit that keeps her party together.

It's pretty clear now that she can only deliver either a soft Brexit or no-deal at all. If she goes with the former she has to talk to Labour as the ERG/DUP are die-in-a-ditch no-dealers. It would probably split the Tories though. If she goes with no-deal then I think she has to at least have the fig leaf cover of saying "well I tried for cross party consensus but Labour just wouldn't work together". It will lead to short term chaos, probably long term hundreds of thousands of job losses and more or less cripple UK manufacturing and farming for good but it would keep more Tories together. :rolleyes:

Either way I think she has to (at least pretend to) talk to Corbyn. But she is too blinkered to see anything. Have we ever had a political leader with less vision?

Have we ever had two political leaders with less vision? Corbyn just as bad.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Have we ever had two political leaders with less vision? Corbyn just as bad.


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:agree: No argument from me on that. Well you could argue he has a nice vision of the 70s.

[Jack Hackett]

May seems to be ruling out talking to Corbyn or shifting red lines. Her "strategy" appears to be press on with largely the same deal and hope to pick off back benchers. ****** hopeless. :rolleyes:

She'd have to turn 115 naysayers. That would be some achievement.

[Ozyhibby]

Dominic Grieve about to present a 2nd referendum bill.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Dominic Grieve about to present a 2nd referendum bill.


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Done. One of the few willing to put their head above the parapet.


Meanwhile Jeremy is unclear about Brexit https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1085526190507593728

[Mibbes Aye]

Watching Corbyn just now in the debate and he isn’t great.

What makes it worse is that there is an MP sitting right behind him and she is busy on her mobile, rather than listening to her ‘leader’.

[Moulin Yarns]

Watching Corbyn just now in the debate and he isn’t great.

What makes it worse is that there is an MP sitting right behind him and she is busy on her mobile, rather than listening to her ‘leader’.

That's nearly always the case. At one point yesterday an MP was on their feet and the 4 others on screen were checking their phones (2) checking their I-Pad (1) and reading some papers, none were listening to the person speaking.

[cabbageandribs1875]

lol, some labour wifey asked may to stop giving the same answers, wtf can she say when it's the same question every time :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

That's nearly always the case. At one point yesterday an MP was on their feet and the 4 others on screen were checking their phones (2) checking their I-Pad (1) and reading some papers, none were listening to the person speaking.


i've noticed that woman a lot, no idea who she is but could she be his script writer/secretary whatever ? she's often bending over to speak to him whilst he's speaking, the one that sits next to him quite often half turns and shakes her head in a ffs will you stfu manner :)

[Ozyhibby]

Watching Corbyn just now in the debate and he isn’t great.

What makes it worse is that there is an MP sitting right behind him and she is busy on her mobile, rather than listening to her ‘leader’.

Corbyn has been a disaster for Labour. With just about any other leader they would have a 20 point lead in the polls.
He’s Michael Foot mark 2.


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[Jack]

i've noticed that woman a lot, no idea who she is but could she be his script writer/secretary whatever ? she's often bending over to speak to him whilst he's speaking, the one that sits next to him quite often half turns and shakes her head in a ffs will you stfu manner :)

If they are sitting in the Chamber then they must be MPs. The type of person you refer to have a wee cubby hole they sit in where they can pass notes to/from.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxC2lcNWwAAsyKD.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

David Davis


On the question of another Brexit referendum, Mr Davis says "there are quite a lot of citizens who would be offended to be asked several times until they get it right".
"I do not approve it, I think it's a bad idea and would cause greater divisions," he adds.
On the practicalities of a second referendum, he says the fact it could be developed and a question agreed to in a matter of months is "a joke".
He believes it would take two years to achieve, and would have a negative impact on negotiations.









Talk about being obstructive. We have a question, it is simply, do you want to leave the EU in the manner agreed between the EU and UK government? yes or no

If yes, we accept the deal and get on with it, if no then parliament repeals the Article 50 and we go back to being a fully functioning member of the EU.

There is no need to include 'no deal'

[JeMeSouviens]

David Davis

Talk about being obstructive. We have a question, it is simply, do you want to leave the EU in the manner agreed between the EU and UK government? yes or no

If yes, we accept the deal and get on with it, if no then parliament repeals the Article 50 and we go back to being a fully functioning member of the EU.

There is no need to include 'no deal'

If anybody was still in any doubt how much it's worth listening to DD the Brexit Bulldog ...

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-secretary-david-davis-twitter-resign-theresa-may-conservative-party-8438651

:rolleyes:

[WhileTheChief..]

But you’ve just changed the question to what we were originally asked.

As it stands, if we leave with no deal, that is exactly what people voted for in the referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

But you’ve just changed the question to what we were originally asked.

As it stands, if we leave with no deal, that is exactly what people voted for in the referendum.

Is it?

I don't remember that being part of the referendum ballot paper.

Not to mention the fact that only 37% of the electorate voted to leave the EU with no idea what that actually meant.

And my question is for the second referendum/peoples vote now we actually know what is on the table

[JeMeSouviens]

But you’ve just changed the question to what we were originally asked.

As it stands, if we leave with no deal, that is exactly what people voted for in the referendum.

It really isn't. Some voters might not have cared if there was a deal or not but nobody on either the Remain or Leave sides warned of or proposed a no deal exit.

[cabbageandribs1875]

If they are sitting in the Chamber then they must be MPs. The type of person you refer to have a wee cubby hole they sit in where they can pass notes to/from.


ta for the explanation, if she's an MP she's an MP that i've never saw get up to talk, i reckon she's just a Noter Passerer :)

[Ozyhibby]

But you’ve just changed the question to what we were originally asked.

As it stands, if we leave with no deal, that is exactly what people voted for in the referendum.

Can you name any of the prominent vote leave campaign who said we would be leaving with no deal? Just one?


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[WhileTheChief..]

Is it?

I don't remember that being part of the referendum ballot paper.

Not to mention the fact that only 37% of the electorate voted to leave the EU with no idea what that actually meant.

And my question is for the second referendum/peoples vote now we actually know what is on the table

Which part?

I’m pretty sure we were asked if we should remain or leave. I don’t remember anything about soft or hard or the type of exit we wanted?

As for the 37%, that’s kinda irrelevant. If people chose not to vote they can’t really come back and complain about the result.

[WhileTheChief..]

Can you name any of the prominent vote leave campaign who said we would be leaving with no deal? Just one?


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No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

[Ozyhibby]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

I feel lied too. I remember hearing that a trade deal with the EU would be the easiest in history (Liam Fox) and that no one is threatening our place in the single market (Dan Hannan).
Now that I know that is not true I want another vote.


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[ballengeich]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

Recent opinion polls suggest that a re-vote would probably give a different result. It's quite possible that going ahead with leaving is now actually against the will of the people. It should be tested.

People can change their minds as time passes and more information becomes available. A no deal exit would be like going ahead with purchasing a house after the survey has shown that it's subsiding and riddled with dry rot.

[Jack Hackett]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

Seriously?

:faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

Were we told that we (the UK) would be required to pay up to 30% more for certain goods as a result?

Maybe not lied to but certainly not given all the facts before the vote.

[stoneyburn hibs]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

An Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman walk into a bar.
The Englishman wanted to go,so they all had to leave.

Nobody knew what they were really voting for in June 2016, at least not was behind the front cover.

[WhileTheChief..]

I feel lied too. I remember hearing that a trade deal with the EU would be the easiest in history (Liam Fox) and that no one is threatening our place in the single market (Dan Hannan).
Now that I know that is not true I want another vote.


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Recent opinion polls suggest that a re-vote would probably give a different result. It's quite possible that going ahead with leaving is now actually against the will of the people. It should be tested.

People can change their minds as time passes and more information becomes available. A no deal exit would be like going ahead with purchasing a house after the survey has shown that it's subsiding and riddled with dry rot.

Both fair comments. Cheers.

[Moulin Yarns]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?

The government at the time, led by David Cameron, told the civil service not to plan for a leave vote as it would be catastrophic if leaked. Go figure.

[Bristolhibby]

What’s the difference between a second referendum and a people’s vote?

Why would Corbyn support either when he favours Brexit?

If, as has been said numerous times, the EUs stance is set in stone, then what magic can Corbyn perform to shift them that the Tories can’t?

To those of you who absolutely hate May’s government, other than us somehow Remaining, what is the outcome you’re hoping for?

I honestly don’t think remains been exhausted.

I’d like Mays amended deal v No Brexit to be put to the people.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

I honestly don’t think remains been exhausted.

I’d like Mays amended deal v No Brexit to be put to the people.

J

I think that's what I said. But who knows what Brexit actually means now.

[Bristolhibby]

Imagine the right wing press if Sinn Fein came and stood side by side with Corbyn

[emoji33]


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Gammongeddeon!

J

[weecounty hibby]

No, not at all.

My point though, is that all he talk of different deals etc is after the fact.

We were asked remain or leave. We answered.

I’m struggling to accept that the people who voted to leave were lied to or didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Is it not pretty arrogant to suggest that?
If you asked a selection of people what one thing they remembered most about the referendum campaign a lot if not most would say the bus with £350m per week back to the NHS. The day after the result it turns out well you know it wasn't really true. Or in other words a lie. People were lied to no doubt about it and that is just the most obvious lie

[hibsbollah]

If you asked a selection of people what one thing they remembered most about the referendum campaign a lot if not most would say the bus with £350m per week back to the NHS. The day after the result it turns out well you know it wasn't really true. Or in other words a lie. People were lied to no doubt about it and that is just the most obvious lie


Macron is not someone I generally agree with, but this was him earlier today...

The result of yesterday's Commons vote, asserted Macron, "says a lot about what referendums, which seemed nice, can create. It's a referendum that has been manipulated, manipulated from outside by a lot of what we call fake news, where everything and anything was said, and now they are being told 'figure it out yourselves'. Result: it is not true. We (the Leave campaign) have lied to the people and what they (the public) have chosen is not possible. Good luck to the representatives of the nation who have to implement a thing which doesn't exist and explain to the people: 'you have voted on a thing, we lied to you. That's what they have to go through."

[jonty]

Was there a reason Tom Watson didn't go for the leadership role?

[Mibbes Aye]

Was there a reason Tom Watson didn't go for the leadership role?

He didn’t have the votes at the time, especially from the mass entryists who swelled the Labour membership

He does have votes amongst MPs, full party members and union members I suspect.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Was there a reason Tom Watson didn't go for the leadership role?


i quite like tom watson :agree:

[hibsbollah]

That's nearly always the case. At one point yesterday an MP was on their feet and the 4 others on screen were checking their phones (2) checking their I-Pad (1) and reading some papers, none were listening to the person speaking.

Mostly they are tweeting their response to what is happening in the chamber. For example, Labour MP Lisa Tandy has just tweeted to mock the Michael Gove speech she was listening to as a 'shameless leadership pitch'.

They're not all looking at kitten videos.

[cabbageandribs1875]

May's mob wins 325-306

[JeMeSouviens]

May invites other party leaders for talks. Shock.

Corbyn says only if she rules out no deal.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn says only if she rules out no deal.

I'm delighted he said that.

[Benny Brazil]

i quite like tom watson :agree:

PM's questions would be more interesting if it was Watson and Gove - both gave excellent speeches (Not that I necessarily agree with Gove before I get accused of being a Tory!)

[Ozyhibby]

i quite like tom watson :agree:

Cooper would be better. Watson has a few skeletons in the closet.


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[Ozyhibby]

I'm delighted he said that.

It’s his way of avoiding talking about a 2nd referendum.
Hard to believe how dumb Corbyn is handing May a win today. The pressure is now all on Labour. They have to come out for something now. He has to come of the fence.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

PM's questions would be more interesting if it was Watson and Gove - both gave excellent speeches (Not that I necessarily agree with Gove before I get accused of being a Tory!)



it would also seriously lower the noise of my Tinnitus :greengrin i like listening to both sides of the house as long as they get their views across without yelling, corbyn being chief culprit for me, i'l add andrea leadsom to my 'likes' , she's always very pleasant and shows everyone respect, i also like listening to Mhairi black :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cooper would be better. Watson has a few skeletons in the closet.


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fair shout :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

i really wish i hadn't now, but i had a quick sketch at odds on the next labour leader, emily thornberry 5/1 Fav, omfg :shocked:

[CallumLaidlaw]

10pm speech from May


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1085656454302842880?s=19

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1085656454302842880?s=19

Football has gone to extra time so it won’t be on bbc 1.[emoji3]


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[Benny Brazil]

I think she will extend Article 50

[Callum_62]

Wonder what this is all about

Surely not another soundbyte type statement

It appears that Parliament are starting to finally get a bit grown up


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[Pretty Boy]

Here comes Theresa.

[Pretty Boy]

I turned over trom the football for this. More ****ing soundbites.

[Callum_62]

“The public want us to Get on with delivering Brexit”

Must deliver on referendum- invite all parties to come forward to get a consensus

“Time to put self interest aside”. Christ!

Talks tomorrow with all parties but labour so far hasn’t agreed to come

Time to out national interest first

And shes gone



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[Moulin Yarns]

Wonder what this is all about

Surely not another soundbyte type statement

It appears that Parliament are starting to finally get a bit grown up


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Guess what. It was a soundbite

[Callum_62]

It was literally a PMs question type statement.


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[Bristolhibby]

“Put self interests aside”.

Purleese!

[Ozyhibby]

“The public want us to Get on with delivering Brexit”

Must deliver on referendum- invite all parties to come forward to get a consensus

“Time to put self interest aside”. Christ!

Talks tomorrow with all parties but labour so far hasn’t agreed to come

Time to out national interest first

And shes gone



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What a complete waste of time.


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[Benny Brazil]

So just an oppprtunity to have a dig at Corbyn and then reiterate about delivering Brexit

[Moulin Yarns]

“The public want us to Get on with delivering Brexit”

Must deliver on referendum- invite all parties to come forward to get a consensus

“Time to put self interest aside”. Christ!

Talks tomorrow with all parties but labour so far hasn’t agreed to come

Time to out national interest first

And shes gone



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Corbyn said he will talk after no deal has been removed from the table

Just seen the letter from Ian Blackford and he said the same.

[pacoluna]

I despise her more than Terry butcher, makes my skin crawl the robot that she is 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

[JeMeSouviens]

I turned over trom the football for this. More ****ing soundbites.

I didn’t. Nor did bbc1. Rather watch scottish cup hero Martyn Waghorn. :greengrin

[James310]

I don't see in the timescales we have how a deal that gets a majority backing can be delivered. It's wasting more time and we will find ourselves in same situation in a few weeks time.

Is it true she needs to come back a with proposal by Monday? Will that be voted on as well.

[Ozyhibby]

I despise her more than Terry butcher, makes my skin crawl the robot that she is [emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35]

I haven’t healed as much as you.[emoji23]


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[Callum_62]

I don't see in the timescales we have how a deal that gets a majority backing can be delivered. It's wasting more time and we will find ourselves in same situation in a few weeks time.

Is it true she needs to come back a with proposal by Monday? Will that be voted on as well.

There is an obvious consensus in parliament for a soft brexit - it needs to be that or a total cliff edge no deal brexit


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[Ozyhibby]

I don't see in the timescales we have how a deal that gets a majority backing can be delivered. It's wasting more time and we will find ourselves in same situation in a few weeks time.

Is it true she needs to come back a with proposal by Monday? Will that be voted on as well.

Yes, she needs to come back by Monday with a plan.


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[pacoluna]

Yes, she needs to come back by Monday with a plan.


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"Nothing has changed" "nothing has changed" while flailing her arms. That will be Mondays plan.

[BroxburnHibee]

She has to come up with something different by Monday or another no confidence vote awaits.

I still hope at the very least an extension to A50 is the first step.

[Callum_62]

She has to come up with something different by Monday or another no confidence vote awaits.

I still hope at the very least an extension to A50 is the first step.

Will the eu accept an extension past the eu election (may is it?)

Surley by monday we will have ruled out no deal

Interesting a no deal probably suits the SNP agenda if independence- but theyve been constant with there CU membership need


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[weecounty hibby]

"Put aside self interest" what a ****ing joke. It is exactly the Tory party self interest that has got us here. Hypocrisy at its finest. As for Corbyn, what a waste of a leadership position. He is pathetic. He wants a general election but that's a waste of everyone's time as Labour won't win with him in charge

[BroxburnHibee]

Will the eu accept an extension past the eu election (may is it?)

Surley by monday we will have ruled out no deal

Interesting a no deal probably suits the SNP agenda if independence- but theyve been constant with there CU membership need


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I'm no expert in political affairs but the way I see it if she rules out no deal (which is the only stick she has to beat back benches with) then she's basically saying it's my deal or we go back to the people.

That is obviously what the remainers want which is why they're trying to force her into committing to it.

[Ozyhibby]

Will the eu accept an extension past the eu election (may is it?)

Surley by monday we will have ruled out no deal

Interesting a no deal probably suits the SNP agenda if independence- but theyve been constant with there CU membership need


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A no deal is a disaster for the SNP because independence would mean a hard border between Scotland and England. There is no chance they can win indyref 2 if that is on the cards.
SNP need a soft brexit with customs union and single market membership. Or a remain.



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[Ozyhibby]

I'm no expert in political affairs but the way I see it if she rules out no deal (which is the only stick she has to beat back benches with) then she's basically saying it's my deal or we go back to the people.

That is obviously what the remainers want which is why they're trying to force her into committing to it.

If she rules out no deal then about 50 back benchers will immediately leave the Tory party and she loses her majority.


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[BroxburnHibee]

If she rules out no deal then about 50 back benchers will immediately leave the Tory party and she loses her majority.


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I very much doubt that would happen.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Telegraph has a recording of conference call between govt ministers and business leaders in which Hammond says large majority in parliament against no deal and talked up Boles’ plan. Brexit secretary Barclay contradicted him.

[pacoluna]

"Put aside self interest" what a ****ing joke. It is exactly the Tory party self interest that has got us here. Hypocrisy at its finest. As for Corbyn, what a waste of a leadership position. He is pathetic. He wants a general election but that's a waste of everyone's time as Labour won't win with him in charge


Self interest.. where were the 117 rebel Tories who tried to oust may as leader at beginning of December. According to them she ain't capable of being Tory leader however they are more than willing to give their confidence in her when it comes to running the country. Tories are nothing but ****ing parasites!

[The Harp Awakes]

Self interest.. where were the 117 rebel Tories who tried to oust may as leader at beginning of December. According to them she ain't capable of being Tory leader however they are more than willing to give their confidence in her when it comes to running the country. Tories are nothing but ****ing parasites!

They sure are Paco.

Having listened to May, Liz Truss and others today, it's becoming quite clear they have no intention of working with opposition parties on Brexit. Their focus will be changing the deal sufficiently to get enough Tory MPs and the DUP to support it. A day after the biggest Westminster defeat in political history and they continue not to listen. Absolute ****bags. Roll on independence and we can get shot of the Tories forever.

[Ozyhibby]

They sure are Paco.

Having listened to May, Liz Truss and others today, it's becoming quite clear they have no intention of working with opposition parties on Brexit. Their focus will be changing the deal sufficiently to get enough Tory MPs and the DUP to support it. A day after the biggest Westminster defeat in political history and they continue not to listen. Absolute ****bags. Roll on independence and we can get shot of the Tories forever.

That’s impossible. There are full on remain mp’s among the tories who will never be happy with a deal that the ERG are happy with.
Brexit doesn’t split very well on party lines.
At some point May will have to realise this and pick a side. At which point she upsets the other side and they can bring her down.


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[Callum_62]

That’s impossible. There are full on remain mp’s among the tories who will never be happy with a deal that the ERG are happy with.
Brexit doesn’t split very well on party lines.
At some point May will have to realise this and pick a side. At which point she upsets the other side and they can bring her down.


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Bring her down how? The tories can’t challenge her leadership for 12 months....and would they risk a GE??

The only deal getting through Parliament is a soft Brexit


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[Ozyhibby]

Bring her down how? The tories can’t challenge her leadership for 12 months....and would they risk a GE??

The only deal getting through Parliament is a soft Brexit


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There are plenty who would risk a general election if they don’t get their way. Grieve, Soubry etc have already said they would do absolutely everything to avoid a no deal and I’m sure there are plenty ERG types who would vote against her if she went for a soft brexit.
I actually don’t think she will survive. She has to break one way or another now and whichever way she chooses is going to finish her. That’s why she has not moved an inch since losing that vote. She can’t without losing her job.


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[McSwanky]

There are plenty who would risk a general election if they don’t get their way. Grieve, Soubry etc have already said they would do absolutely everything to avoid a no deal and I’m sure there are plenty ERG types who would vote against her if she went for a soft brexit.
I actually don’t think she will survive. She has to break one way or another now and whichever way she chooses is going to finish her. That’s why she has not moved an inch since losing that vote. She can’t without losing her job.


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Decent analysis there, I would say. May is cornered, and she has to choose. With any luck, we could be about to see a seismic change in the 2-party system that has dominated UK politics for far too long! (Crosses fingers)

[JeMeSouviens]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxDyOw_WwAEt4H6.jpg

Needs viewed at original size:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxDyOw_WwAEt4H6.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

No 10 lobby briefing (ie. May's message going directly to the press):


Number 10 very clear at lobby today they aren’t flexible on

1) second referendum
2) customs union
3) extending Article 50
4) dropping no-deal threat

Looks like the cross party talks are purely cosmetic and May is going to press ahead with slightly tweaked deal.

[McSwanky]

No 10 lobby briefing (ie. May's message going directly to the press):



Looks like the cross party talks are purely cosmetic and May is going to press ahead with slightly tweaked deal.

Did they mention what they actually are flexible on? Because that sounds like nothing at all has changed. Cross party talks/consensus politics? My arse.

[WhileTheChief..]

What does it matter though?

Corbyn and the SNP will object to anything she comes up with anyways!

[ronaldo7]

No 10 lobby briefing (ie. May's message going directly to the press):



Looks like the cross party talks are purely cosmetic and May is going to press ahead with slightly tweaked deal.

The can is being kicked down the road again.

[Ozyhibby]

No 10 lobby briefing (ie. May's message going directly to the press):



Looks like the cross party talks are purely cosmetic and May is going to press ahead with slightly tweaked deal.

She can’t do anything without losing her job. She is stuck. Anyone else would resign.


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[Callum_62]

What does it matter though?

Corbyn and the SNP will object to anything she comes up with anyways!

Thats absolute bull


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[Ozyhibby]

What does it matter though?

Corbyn and the SNP will object to anything she comes up with anyways!

There is no sense blaming the opposition for opposing when your own party are also in opposition.


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[Ozyhibby]

Decent analysis there, I would say. May is cornered, and she has to choose. With any luck, we could be about to see a seismic change in the 2-party system that has dominated UK politics for far too long! (Crosses fingers)

Robert Peston thinks you will get your wish.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/which-party-will-split-first-labour-or-the-conservatives/amp/?__twitter_impression=true



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[Bristolhibby]

What does it matter though?

Corbyn and the SNP will object to anything she comes up with anyways!

Rightly so. Because she’s not changing anything and everything she has suggested to date (her deal) has been sunk by Parliament.

Looking forward to her plan B.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190117/29c9c140b242288c5bfc72fabd0da8dd.jpg

Cooper and Benn first to break ranks with Corbyn.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190117/29c9c140b242288c5bfc72fabd0da8dd.jpg

Cooper and Benn first to break ranks with Corbyn.


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Yvette Cooper has spoken a lot of sense throughout this debacle.
Quite rightly breaking ranks instead of burying the head.

[Ozyhibby]

Yvette Cooper has spoken a lot of sense throughout this debacle.
Quite rightly breaking ranks instead of burying the head.

Absolutely. Cooper and Benn is the leadership team Labour should have went with.


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[heretoday]

Absolutely. Cooper and Benn is the leadership team Labour should have went with.


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You're right. They're trying to get on with it and put together a plan.
Business will thank them for it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Absolutely. Cooper and Benn is the leadership team Labour should have went with.


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I think Yvette Cooper suffered from being seen as too close to Ed Balls. She got my second vote when she stood.

Hillary Benn has grown into a senior role. He was a bit shallow but has emerged with age.

[hibsbollah]

Yvette Cooper has spoken a lot of sense throughout this debacle.
Quite rightly breaking ranks instead of burying the head.

Weren't you criticising Corbyn for being a hidden brexiteer? Now you are criticising him for demanding May explicitly rules out a no deal? Of course we should rule out a no deal, it's obvious if you want to avoid one :confused:

Cooper and Benn have just come out of the meeting echoing Corby's demand that No Deal shouldn't be a option. So they are on the same page. He urged MPs not to meet May as a tactic, it wasn't a three line whip or anything.

It strikes me that in the current political climate, if a politician you don't like says something, you criticise it automatically without assessing the content. This isn't unique to you of course. As Barry Gardiner has been pointing out recently, people are only listening with the intention of how to construct a counterargument, instead of genuinely listening.

[Ozyhibby]

Weren't you criticising Corbyn for being a hidden brexiteer? Now you are criticising him for demanding May explicitly rules out a no deal? Of course we should rule out a no deal, it's obvious if you want to avoid one :confused:

Cooper and Benn have just come out of the meeting echoing Corby's demand that No Deal shouldn't be a option. So they are on the same page. He urged MPs not to meet May as a tactic, it wasn't a three line whip or anything.

It strikes me that in the current political climate, if a politician you don't like says something, you criticise it automatically without assessing the content. This isn't unique to you of course. As Barry Gardiner has been pointing out recently, people are only listening with the intention of how to construct a counterargument, instead of genuinely listening.

The way to avoid no deal is to get in the room. To avoid no deal, May needs enough labour votes to be able to ignore the ERG. She can’t get enough without Corbyn I don’t think. Although there are enough Labour MP’s who would give her a soft brexit they won’t defy the Labour whip to do it. She needs 119 Labour mp’s to vote with her, that’s a lot. Without Corbyn it won’t happen.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

Weren't you criticising Corbyn for being a hidden brexiteer? Now you are criticising him for demanding May explicitly rules out a no deal? Of course we should rule out a no deal, it's obvious if you want to avoid one :confused:

Cooper and Benn have just come out of the meeting echoing Corby's demand that No Deal shouldn't be a option. So they are on the same page. He urged MPs not to meet May as a tactic, it wasn't a three line whip or anything.

It strikes me that in the current political climate, if a politician you don't like says something, you criticise it automatically without assessing the content. This isn't unique to you of course. As Barry Gardiner has been pointing out recently, people are only listening with the intention of how to construct a counterargument, instead of genuinely listening.

I did say he was a brexiteer because I think he is. Is he not?
Corbyn should have been at that meeting either with or without Benn and Cooper as his tactics thus far have been nothing like I'd expect from the leader of the opposition.

The leader of the SNP at Westminster was there last night without any fuss whatsoever, laying down the SNP terms in black and white without any need for cloak and dagger tactics.

There , I have genuinely listened to what you have said 😁

[hibsbollah]

The way to avoid no deal is to get in the room. To avoid no deal, May needs enough labour votes to be able to ignore the ERG. She can’t get enough without Corbyn I don’t think. Although there are enough Labour MP’s who would give her a soft brexit they won’t defy the Labour whip to do it. She needs 119 Labour mp’s to vote with her, that’s a lot. Without Corbyn it won’t happen.


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:dunno: But he HAS offered to 'get in the room' on the condition that No deal is removed from the table. Which is exactly the position that most Remainers would expect a politician to take. In fact it's basically the same position as Sturgeon, Ms Plaid Cymru, and Michael Stipe from the Scottish Greens.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post but it doesn't really address what I said.

[hibsbollah]

There , I have genuinely listened to what you have said 😁

Yes you did:applause:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/01/machiavellianism-and-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

2nd ref on the cards?


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/01/machiavellianism-and-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

2nd ref on the cards?


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Even the current incumbents aren’t stupid enough not to plan the options out.

[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190117/29c9c140b242288c5bfc72fabd0da8dd.jpg

Cooper and Benn first to break ranks with Corbyn.


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Both went as, cross party chairs of commons committees.

[WhileTheChief..]

If a 2nd referendum takes place and the result is Leave, how would that in any way help the situation?

We’d be right back to where we are now, right?

[lapsedhibee]

If a 2nd referendum takes place and the result is Leave, how would that in any way help the situation?

We’d be right back to where we are now, right?

The choice wouldn't be simply "Leave" or "Remain".

[Jack]

If a 2nd referendum takes place and the result is Leave, how would that in any way help the situation?

We’d be right back to where we are now, right?

It's a chance the Torys take.

They took a chance the last time to shut their brexiteers up. Can't be any worse than where we are.

[danhibees1875]

If a 2nd referendum takes place and the result is Leave, how would that in any way help the situation?

We’d be right back to where we are now, right?

No deal or no Brexit. Last roll of the dice.

[RyeSloan]

The choice wouldn't be simply "Leave" or "Remain".

What would they be?

And can you imagine any of the powers at be being able to agree on them and thus formulate the actual terms of the question to be asked?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Yes you did:applause:

You should maybe take some of Barry Gardiners thoughts on board as I asked you a question in my last reply.

[lapsedhibee]

What would they be?

And can you imagine any of the powers at be being able to agree on them and thus formulate the actual terms of the question to be asked?

If TM's still the PM and trying to hold her party together, there'd be at least three options, including some variant of a No Deal exit. Think there'd likely be STV operating also.

[hibsbollah]

You should maybe take some of Barry Gardiners thoughts on board as I asked you a question in my last reply.

His thoughts were about listening and thinking in an openhearted and genuine way, not about answering linear factual questions on demand:greengrin

No, he's not a 'brexiteer'.

[RyeSloan]

If TM's still the PM and trying to hold her party together, there'd be at least three options, including some variant of a No Deal exit. Think there'd likely be STV operating also.

Yeah don’t see that myself, esp. the STV part (can only imagine the chat on there about only x% of people actually voted for y etc etc [emoji2957]) but hey anything’s possible in this car crash so you may be right...

[Bristolhibby]

From today’s Telegraph

I’ve copied it because I’m not sure if the link will work or take you to some pay option.

By Steven Swinford
17th Jan 2019, 12:35 pm
Philip Hammond told business leaders that the “threat” of a no-deal Brexit could be taken “off the table” within days and potentially lead to Article 50 “rescinded”, a leaked recording of a conference call reveals.
The Chancellor set out how a backbench Bill could effectively be used to stop any prospect of no deal. He suggested that ministers may even back the plan when asked for an “assurance” by the head of Tesco that the Government would not oppose the motion.
He claimed next week’s Bill, which could force the Government to extend Article 50, was likely to win support and act as the “ultimate backstop” against a no-deal Brexit, as a “large majority in the Commons is opposed to no deal under any circumstances”.
A recording of the call, passed to The Daily Telegraph, recounts how the Chancellor, Greg Clark, the Business Secretary, and Stephen Barclay, the Brexit Secretary, spent nearly an hour talking to the leaders of 330 leading firms.
They included the heads of Siemens, Amazon, Scottish Power, Tesco and BP, all of whom warned against no deal.

The disclosure reveals the close nature of the relationship between the Treasury and some of Britain’s biggest businesses, and how they appear to be working in tandem to block a hard Brexit. It will also add to suspicions that Mr Hammond has been orchestrating attempts to soften Brexit.

Mr Hammond assured the business leaders that the Government would stop spending money on no-deal preparations “as soon as we know we are not going there” and give businesses “a resumption of normal service”.
He indicated the Government was open to talks over the customs union by saying it could not go into discussions with other parties “waving flags with red lines on them”.
Mr Clark argued “we can’t have no deal” and said Theresa May would return to the Commons, following the defeat of her Brexit deal by a record margin on Tuesday, with “at least as close a trading relationship” as proposed under her original agreement.
However, Mr Barclay, a Eurosceptic, appeared to clash with his colleagues by warning that taking no deal off the table would “weaken the negotiation hand” with Brussels.
The Prime Minister on Wednesday night won a vote of no-confidence tabled by Labour and invited the leaders of other parties to meet for talks. Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, declined to talk while a no-deal Brexit remained on the table.

Mrs May refused to rule out entering into a customs union with the EU, in an apparent softening of her stance, as EU leaders urged her to retreat on her “red lines”.

Mr Hammond’s conference call was held at 9.30pm on Tuesday, less than two hours after Mrs May’s Commons defeat. The Chancellor, Mr Clark and Mr Barclay hosted the 51-minute call from Downing Street.
In his opening remarks, Mr Hammond gave a clear “sequence” on how Article 50 could be extended.
He said: “Could we extend the Article 50 deadline to give us more time? The simple answer is that the EU would not consider the request for the extension … unless or until we have a clear plan to go forward.
“The sequence has to be first to reach out to opinion across the Commons to establish the terms on which we can build a majority for a way forward.
“If necessary [we] go back to the EU to agree changes that are necessary to deliver that consensus. And at that time, if more time is going to be required, to negotiate that with the EU.”

He highlighted the cross-party Bill tabled by Nick Boles, the Tory MP, which will force the Government to extend Article 50 if a Brexit deal cannot be reached. MPs will vote on an amendment that will pave the way for the Bill on Monday.

Mr Boles told The Telegraph that Mrs May would face a Cabinet revolt if she attempted to oppose his amendment.
During the conference call, Mr Hammond added: “I can simply as a parliamentarian say it is clear to me there is a large majority in the Commons that is opposed to no deal in any circumstances.”
A Treasury source said Mr Hammond made clear he was not advocating extending Article 50 during the call but explaining the process.

J

[Stevie Reid]

Apologies if already posted, but this is a depressingly accurate read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR1gV2KA4P977RbtRuvGGHdnh6jZ2T1NhrLEGU7-VuGQZjP4CZ0W2L413Hc

[Bangkok Hibby]

Apologies if already posted, but this is a depressingly accurate read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR1gV2KA4P977RbtRuvGGHdnh6jZ2T1NhrLEGU7-VuGQZjP4CZ0W2L413Hc

That's a powerful piece. People will pick holes in it but doesn't make you proud to be British does it?

[hibsbollah]

Apologies if already posted, but this is a depressingly accurate read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR1gV2KA4P977RbtRuvGGHdnh6jZ2T1NhrLEGU7-VuGQZjP4CZ0W2L413Hc

A powerful piece yes, but I think it also feeds the slightly screechy narrative that the ordinary people are being let down solely by an incompetent political class. Although that's true to a certain extent, it shouldn't be forgotten that it was a majority chunk of the people who voted for it, particularly from particular demographics. There needs to be a collective responsibility, (particularly from the media, who are pushing this narrative strongest) its not just the politicians fault. I don't agree with Tony Blair very often but he made the similar point yesterday.

[Stevie Reid]

A powerful piece yes, but I think it also feeds the slightly screechy narrative that the ordinary people are being let down solely by an incompetent political class. Although that's true to a certain extent, it shouldn't be forgotten that it was a majority chunk of the people who voted for it, particularly from particular demographics. There needs to be a collective responsibility, (particularly from the media, who are pushing this narrative strongest) its not just the politicians fault. I don't agree with Tony Blair very often but he made the similar point yesterday.

True, especially with regards to the media comment - but the fact that the referendum came into existence in the first place was down to the exact types outlined in this piece.

But the media profile afforded to the likes of Farage and Johnson in the last 15 years or so definitely cannot be underestimated.

[Stevie Reid]

Probably also seen by many, but worth a read if not:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/18/europe-brexit-britain-state-politics-fit-for-purpose

[JeMeSouviens]

True, especially with regards to the media comment - but the fact that the referendum came into existence in the first place was down to the exact types outlined in this piece.

But the media profile afforded to the likes of Farage and Johnson in the last 15 years or so definitely cannot be underestimated.

Yep. The other main group apart from the Empire nostalgics are the capitalist ultras who want to get rid of workers' protections, environmental standards etc. There is a considerable overlap between the groups as well.

[Fife-Hibee]

How much more do we have to put up with before we tell our "union of equals" to GTF?

[PeeJay]

A powerful piece yes, but I think it also feeds the slightly screechy narrative that the ordinary people are being let down solely by an incompetent political class. Although that's true to a certain extent, it shouldn't be forgotten that it was a majority chunk of the people who voted for it, particularly from particular demographics. There needs to be a collective responsibility, (particularly from the media, who are pushing this narrative strongest) its not just the politicians fault. I don't agree with Tony Blair very often but he made the similar point yesterday.

Fair points - seems to me that you're spot on about the collective responsibility for this mess, but that has to include the population - fail to see how a country such as the UK can be a member of the EU for 47 years and know so little about it, only to then complain they didn't know what leaving would entail either? And as to what happens now, well ... :confused: -

DHL guy at my door just said what many over here think: time for the UK to leave, find out what it's like on "its own" and then "we'll" welcome you back one day with open arms ...

[Fife-Hibee]

But the media profile afforded to the likes of Farage and Johnson in the last 15 years or so definitely cannot be underestimated.

It's almost as if the people that control the media, control political outcomes and dictate what sort of "democracy" we have. But surely not?

[Bristolhibby]

Fair points - seems to me that you're spot on about the collective responsibility for this mess, but that has to include the population - fail to see how a country such as the UK can be a member of the EU for 47 years and know so little about it, only to then complain they didn't know what leaving would entail either? And as to what happens now, well ... :confused: -

DHL guy at my door just said what many over here think: time for the UK to leave, find out what it's like on "its own" and then "we'll" welcome you back one day with open arms ...

That’s what years of Eurosceptism does to you.

It is also what being an island on the prephary of Europe does.
We haven’t been invaded, we haven’t had different to be “European”.

Empire, and being Billy big balls also has a lot to do with this POV.
Partly explains why the Irish are so for it. They have been invaded, they haven’t been a global super power and get it when it comes to global clout.

The whole is worth more than the sum of the parts.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s what years of Eurosceptism does to you.

It is also what being an island on the prephary of Europe does.
We haven’t been invaded, we haven’t had different to be “European”.

Empire, and being Billy big balls also has a lot to do with this POV.
Partly explains why the Irish are so for it. They have been invaded, they haven’t been a global super power and get it when it comes to global clout.

The whole is worth more than the sum of the parts.

J

The Vikings, Scots, Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Normans would beg to differ. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

In addition to above Brexit motivations (empire nostalgia, ultra capitalism) add a 3rd: sheer opportunistic ********ry. Brexiteers with leadership ambitions who will say anything and adopt literally any position that they think will curry favour with the Tory membership. Not looking at any Boris Johnsons in particular.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Vikings, Scots, Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Normans would beg to differ. :wink:

But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Apologies if already posted, but this is a depressingly accurate read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR1gV2KA4P977RbtRuvGGHdnh6jZ2T1NhrLEGU7-VuGQZjP4CZ0W2L413Hc


Probably also seen by many, but worth a read if not:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/18/europe-brexit-britain-state-politics-fit-for-purpose

Both good stuff. :agree:

[jonty]

The choice wouldn't be simply "Leave" or "Remain".

'The Deal' - take it or leave it (no pun intended)

[Bristolhibby]

The Vikings, Scots, Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Normans would beg to differ. :wink:

Ok, and early man in the mass migration from Africa.

But that aside, you see my point?

J

[makaveli1875]

Ok, and early man in the mass migration from Africa.

But that aside, you see my point?

J

The Chinese are disputing the mass migration out of Africa. They claim to have evolved independently from the rest of us in Asia rather than Africa

[Moulin Yarns]

The Chinese are disputing the mass migration out of Africa. They claim to have evolved independently from the rest of us in Asia rather than Africa

And Alice Roberts proved it was wrong on BBC4 this week.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1086623152032178178?s=19

Does anyone still think that the yellow vest protests to support Brexit is a good thing?

[Pete]

“Neon nazis”

:tee hee:

[Jack Hackett]

https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1086623152032178178?s=19

Does anyone still think that the yellow vest protests to support Brexit is a good thing?

Well clearly about 1 in 100k of the population of Leeds do... but I'm pretty sure they're not the brightest 0.01% of the city's population

[Hibrandenburg]

Just looking at the amount of information published by the UK government on what UK citizens need to know about what happens after the 29th of March, it would seem a hard Brexit is on the cards. The latest info for EU citizens living in the UK makes me ashamed to be British by birth.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/applying-for-settled-status

[JeMeSouviens]

Meet Plan B - it's Plan A with 'A' crossed out and 'B' written in. :rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Meet Plan B - it's Plan A with 'A' crossed out and 'B' written in. :rolleyes:

So much for cross party support


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[Ozyhibby]

So much for cross party support


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And she still won’t have enough to get it through. I think the real plan now is to run down the clock and go for no deal.


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[lapsedhibee]

Meet Plan B - it's Plan A with 'A' crossed out and 'B' written in. :rolleyes:

If Parliament manages to rule out No Deal, then ERG etc may be onside for Plan A, and it will do better in another vote than it did last week. Though shirley it would be undemocratic to keep having that same vote until she gets the result she wants.

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian's live updates:


Dominic Raab, the former Brexit secretary, asks May to rule out extending article 50. He says that would give certainty to business.

Is he taking the piss? :confused::rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Well plan B sounds suspiciously like plan B

These “6 lessons learned” are a lotta pish

At least they’ve dropped the ludicrous £65 for EU nationals to apply for settled status


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[James310]

What has scrapping the £65 got to do with getting an alternative Brexit plan approved? Were some MPs saying they voted it down just because of this single issue? Surely not.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Total pish ripped. What's it going to take?, France would be on fire.

[Just Alf]

May reported as saying ..

"She promised to take a more "flexible, open and inclusive" approach to involving MPs, and the Scottish and Welsh governments, in negotiating a future relationship with the EU
- once her Brexit deal has been approved"


Sounds like a certain "vow".

:-/



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[Radium]

Suspect that May believes that no other option will get supported and she will be able to get enough of a guarantee on the Back Stop to get her deal through.

Given how many politicians have shown no backbone on this issue you never know



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[Mr Grieves]

https://news.sky.com/story/cross-channel-freight-trade-could-drop-by-87-govt-document-warns-11614002

This is from a government document and it's likely the cabinet have discussed this. How can anyone in government think this is an option?

[hibsbollah]

https://news.sky.com/story/cross-channel-freight-trade-could-drop-by-87-govt-document-warns-11614002

This is from a government document and it's likely the cabinet have discussed this. How can anyone in government think this is an option?

All is Barry. I believe Boris is going to ferry it all to and fro in a fleet of canoes.and give the NHS loads of cash.

[Callum_62]

https://news.sky.com/story/cross-channel-freight-trade-could-drop-by-87-govt-document-warns-11614002

This is from a government document and it's likely the cabinet have discussed this. How can anyone in government think this is an option?

See this is my problem with this whole fiasco

Why is the hidden? Why arnt the facts portrayed in real terms?

Its an absolute scandal


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[JeMeSouviens]

What has scrapping the £65 got to do with getting an alternative Brexit plan approved? Were some MPs saying they voted it down just because of this single issue? Surely not.

I think it was the only thing they could come up with to say they’d made any compromise at all !

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190121/8bb5ddc3eb754246b304c5c4044a4748.jpg


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[Glory Lurker]

I am baffled by what the point would be in a general election. Surely it can only mean more can kicking?

[Ozyhibby]

I am baffled by what the point would be in a general election. Surely it can only mean more can kicking?

You could say that about just about all the options she has. They are all bad for her one way or another. At some point she is going to have to choose one of those bad options. She will be out of a job soon after.
I can’t see the benefit of them fighting an election either but given the other options, who knows. It looks like she has decided that no matter what she doesn’t want to split her party but that might happen anyway.


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[lapsedhibee]

You could say that about just about all the options she has. They are all bad for her one way or another. At some point she is going to have to choose one of those bad options. She will be out of a job soon after.
I can’t see the benefit of them fighting an election either but given the other options, who knows. It looks like she has decided that no matter what she doesn’t want to split her party but that might happen anyway.


:agree: Nothing to do with national interest, will of the people, blah blah now, it's 100% about welfare of The Tory Party. Always was really.

[SHODAN]

I don't understand how the Tories think they will ever get into power beyond 2030. They've completely and utterly shafted the younger generation for almost 10 years and this is the ultimate kick in the teeth; we won't forget this. They're destroying our future.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't understand how the Tories think they will ever get into power beyond 2030. They've completely and utterly shafted the younger generation for almost 10 years and this is the ultimate kick in the teeth; we won't forget this. They're destroying our future.

Keep up. 2030's another decade away, your cognitive abilities will have declined with age and you'll vote for absolutely anything.

[Ozyhibby]

Lots of Tory brexiteers now saying they are going to vote for May’s deal. Fear of no brexit starting to appear now that Coopers amendment has been tabled.
Still don’t see how she gets the numbers to pass it though.


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[BroxburnHibee]

Lots of Tory brexiteers now saying they are going to vote for May’s deal. Fear of no brexit starting to appear now that Coopers amendment has been tabled.
Still don’t see how she gets the numbers to pass it though.


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Yep was always her plan.

Playing chicken with them

[Fife-Hibee]

Keep up. 2030's another decade away, your cognitive abilities will have declined with age and you'll vote for absolutely anything.

As the statistics prove. :wink:

[Saturday Boy]

As the statistics prove. :wink:

Careful now. I’ve just got my bus pass 😄😄

So far I haven’t felt any slippage from my Yes/remain position, but I’m keeping it under review.

I now have the right to vote against anything those annoying youngsters want; which is pleasing 😄😄

[Moulin Yarns]

Leading brexiteer to move HQ to Singapore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46962093

[hibsbollah]

Leading brexiteer to move HQ to Singapore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46962093

He moved most of his production out east some years ago I recall to take advantage of lower wages. This will be another example of his patriotism at work.

[RyeSloan]

He moved most of his production out east some years ago I recall to take advantage of lower wages. This will be another example of his patriotism at work.

Yet the same story confirms the following:

Mr Rowan said it would be spending £200m in new buildings and testing facilities in Hullavington, and £44m in refreshing office space and adding new laboratories in Malmesbury as well as investing £31m for the young undergraduates at its university on the same site.

In 2017, it paid £95 million to the Exchequer



So two execs and a brass plate to Singapore v the above for the patriotism test...

[hibsbollah]

Yet the same story confirms the following:

Mr Rowan said it would be spending £200m in new buildings and testing facilities in Hullavington, and £44m in refreshing office space and adding new laboratories in Malmesbury as well as investing £31m for the young undergraduates at its university on the same site.

In 2017, it paid £95 million to the Exchequer



So two execs and a brass plate to Singapore v the above for the patriotism test...

:faf:Paying your taxes is a legal requirement.
Excuse me if I don't go weak at the knees because he's not breaking the law

[Colr]

He moved most of his production out east some years ago I recall to take advantage of lower wages. This will be another example of his patriotism at work.

He’ll also benefit from being able to export to the EU from there taking advantage of the free trade deal they recently agreed.

[RyeSloan]

:faf:Paying your taxes is a legal requirement.
Excuse me if I don't go weak at the knees because he's not breaking the law

Ahh OK so paying a near £100m a year in taxes from a company he built from the ground up doesn’t count what about the rest of it?

And the 4,000 jobs he has created in the UK, many of them high end engineering and design jobs? All alongside an integrated Uni that produces thousands of well qualified students to further support the UK economy?

If that doesn’t register in the patriotism stakes what does go into your patriot equation?

[Dalianwanda]

Thought this was a really interesting set of articles....I’m pretty close to the border and have no idea how things were..Can’t help but be concerned about how things could turn out https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/borderlands/the-border

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190122/fb28005a432264232a62cff08f1915ff.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

McDonnel just said Labour will back Coopers amendment. Good chance it passes if that is the case.


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[Callum_62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190122/fb28005a432264232a62cff08f1915ff.jpg


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Its fine - nothing to see here

Seabourne are taking it over anyway. :aok:

[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190122/fb28005a432264232a62cff08f1915ff.jpg


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P&O Ferries, above, is owned by a Dubai company.
P&O Cruises is owned by a company in the USA.

Very few British companies are British.

[Callum_62]

P&O Ferries, above, is owned by a Dubai company.
P&O Cruises is owned by a company in the USA.

Very few British companies are British.

but its fleet are UK registered.....like G registered aircraft

[degenerated]

May reported as saying ..

"She promised to take a more "flexible, open and inclusive" approach to involving MPs, and the Scottish and Welsh governments, in negotiating a future relationship with the EU
- once her Brexit deal has been approved"


Sounds like a certain "vow".

:-/



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except ruth's bigoted rabble up here won't support that

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-conservatives-to-block-post-brexit-trade-role-for-scottish-government-1-4860755

[Moulin Yarns]

Would you want to have been invited?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1088109337141276674?s=19

Has anyone seen abigail's party?

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting anecdotes from a guy that runs political focus groups:

http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/tom-clarkson-brexit-starting-take-its-toll-jeremy-corbyn#.XEtNWEZirDJ.twitter

[stoneyburn hibs]

Interesting anecdotes from a guy that runs political focus groups:

http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/tom-clarkson-brexit-starting-take-its-toll-jeremy-corbyn#.XEtNWEZirDJ.twitter


Nothing to see here, Jeremy knows what he's doing.
Tory lap dog, wants the same outcome.

[steakbake]

My money is we are heading for No Deal.

[RyeSloan]

My money is we are heading for No Deal.

I’m still sticking with the great fudge outcome with a last second move from the EU on the backstop giving May just enough to get her deal over the line...

[Tornadoes70]

I’m still sticking with the great fudge outcome with a last second move from the EU on the backstop giving May just enough to get her deal over the line...

I agree.

The implications of a no deal are finally resonating on folk and if the backstop is amended then the deal will get through.

[Mr Grieves]

Reports today that the government are preparing for martial law in the event of a no deal brexit. I'll say it again, it's madness to think no deal is an option.

[Moulin Yarns]

Reports today that the government are preparing for martial law in the event of a no deal brexit. I'll say it again, it's madness to think no deal is an option.
.
I hope you get your amendment through on Tuesday

[heretoday]

Maybe if these folk in Northern Ireland could grow up and stop chucking bombs at each other there could be a peaceable hard border and everyone could get on just fine.

[Fife-Hibee]

Maybe if these folk in Northern Ireland could grow up and stop chucking bombs at each other there could be a peaceable hard border and everyone could get on just fine.

Well if a border like that could work, then just imagine how well a border would work between 2 countries that haven't chucked any kind of projectiles at each other in over 300 years. :wink:

[heretoday]

Well if a border like that could work, then just imagine how well a border would work between 2 countries that haven't chucked any kind of projectiles at each other in over 300 years. :wink:

Aye, right enough. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Key, but probably not decisive, votes coming up today.

It looks like Labour will whip the Yvette Cooper/Nick Boles amendment - this means the govt will be compelled to ask for extension of art 50 if there is no deal by the end of February. It doesn't completely remove the threat of no deal, merely delays it and it's not certain the EU would agree unless there is commitment to something (agreed and workable soft Brexit, general election or ref2). This is going to be close .

On the other side, a large group of Tory remainers seem to have folded and are backing an ERG inspired plan that will see them demand the EU renegotiates the backstop in a way the EU has already categorically ruled out. But, it keeps the Tories together as we lurch towards the cliff edge ... :rolleyes: The DUP say they'll back this too so it has a chance if the Tory remain rebels are balanced by a few hard brexiting Labour rebels.

Dominic Grieve has his radical parliament takes back control amendment but that's likely to fail.

There's a Labour front bench amendment - fail.

There's an amendment from senior Tory backbencher Graham Brady that would allow MPs to pass May's deal minus the backstop, ie. in a way the EU won't accept. Govt expected to whip for this one.


Edit: the 2nd bit, being titled "the Malthouse Compromise" is not going to a vote today. The ERG/folding soft Tories hope that May will announce support for it and in return they will vote for the Brady amendment. Think the ERG are just throwing up chaff waiting for no deal and some remain Tories are being suckered.

[Ryan91]

May now saying she's going to go back to the EU to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, EU have already shot this down in the past.

[Callum_62]

May now saying she's going to go back to the EU to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, EU have already shot this down in the past.

We wont renegotiate the withdrawal agreement

Aye, but will ye?

More time wasting.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190129/7ccb5f222da49d97c311393f1a18e1ae.jpg


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[JeMeSouviens]

May trying to buy off Tory rebels that might vote for Cooper/Boles by promising meaningful vote #2 on 14th Feb will be fully amendable so they can block no deal then.

[cabbageandribs1875]

may is spot on with corbyn, he likes sitting down for discussions with his beloved terrorist groups but not on something as important as brexit, ******* bizarre

[JeMeSouviens]

Mirror's political ed Pippa Crerrar reports Labour are going to back Grieve - interesting!

[Ozyhibby]

May trying to buy off Tory rebels that might vote for Cooper/Boles by promising meaningful vote #2 on 14th Feb will be fully amendable so they can block no deal then.

She has form for pulling votes though. Not to be trusted.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn says Art 50 extension now inevitable.

[JeMeSouviens]

She has form for pulling votes though. Not to be trusted.


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She's so clear though! :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn - fantasy, unicorns, blah blah blah

[Bangkok Hibby]

She's so clear though! :rolleyes:

Is that the most condescending crap ever? Probably 15-20 years ago politicians started using this "I've/we've been very clear" statements. Oh thats alright then, if youve been very clear your obviously not a liar or trying to dodge the question.

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn confirms Lab will back Cooper/Boles but will seek to make extension 3 months (amendment default is 9), thus not time enough for ref2. In other words, he's still nowhere near backing a ref2 .

[Ryan91]

Corbyn confirms Lab will back Cooper/Boles but will seek to make extension 3 months (amendment default is 9), thus not time enough for ref2. In other words, he's still nowhere near backing a ref2 .

He's got a boner for Brexit, but only on his terms

[Just Alf]

And so it begins


US firms seek changes to UK standards on beef and drugs -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

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[James310]

What is the point of Ian Blackfords amendment? Is it not just a waste of time.

[Bristolhibby]

What is the point of Ian Blackfords amendment? Is it not just a waste of time.

As opposed to May going back to the EU to “negotiate” away the backstop?

From Twitter -

‘An EU official tells me that the irony of all this debate in the Commons is that “it makes crystal clear why we need a backstop in the first place”’

J

[JeMeSouviens]

What is the point of Ian Blackfords amendment? Is it not just a waste of time.

They’re all a waste apart from Cooper tbh. Brady is about keeping Tories together but EU will just say gtf.

[Ozyhibby]

They’re all a waste apart from Cooper tbh. Brady is about keeping Tories together but EU will just say gtf.

They could have just worded the amendment ‘Corbyn is a twat’ in order to get the Tories to all vote together. It would have been just as meaningless as far as the EU are concern as the amendment they have voted on.


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[Mr Grieves]

They’re all a waste apart from Cooper tbh. Brady is about keeping Tories together but EU will just say gtf.

Cooper amendment defeated too.

[Bristolhibby]

PM: You know the backstop?
EU: Yes
PM: The one I agreed to
EU: Mmm
PM: Then asked you to change
EU: Yup
PM: Then agreed to again
EU: Uh-huh
PM: The one we said wouldn’t be re-openned
EU: Quite
PM: I’ve told my MPs to reject it
EU: 🤦
PM: So, can we renegotiate it?
EU: WTAF?

[JeMeSouviens]

Cooper amendment defeated too.

****.

[JeMeSouviens]

14 Labour MPs voted against Cooper. ****ing ********s evey one.

[Hibbyradge]

****'s sake.

[JeMeSouviens]

Spelman amendment passed. Indicative against no deal but no practical effect.

[Ozyhibby]

14 Labour MPs voted against Cooper. ****ing ********s evey one.

Labour Party is heading for a split very soon.


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[Ozyhibby]

Spelman amendment passed. Indicative against no deal but no practical effect.

It’s meaningless. Chance of no deal has gone through the roof.


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[BroxburnHibee]

So let me get this straight. The PM is nòw voting against "her deal"

[Ozyhibby]

So let me get this straight. The PM is nòw voting against "her deal"

Yip


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[Ryan91]

They’re all a waste apart from Cooper tbh. Brady is about keeping Tories together but EU will just say gtf.

And no surprises as Tusk almost immediately responds following passing of the Brady ammendment with - Withdrawal agreement is and remains the best and only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. The backstop is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, and the Withdrawal Agreement is not open for re-negotiation

So JMS 100% spot on, though Tusk puts it more eloquently

[GlesgaeHibby]

I ****ing hate the DUP.

They know fine well that the Backstop is the only way to prevent a hard border and protect the Good Friday Agreement, yet they are driving us towards no deal and a hard border. Made worse by the fact that Northern Ireland voted to remain.

[Hibrandenburg]

I ****ing hate the DUP.

They know fine well that the Backstop is the only way to prevent a hard border and protect the Good Friday Agreement, yet they are driving us towards no deal and a hard border. Made worse by the fact that Northern Ireland voted to remain.

And with a few strong words directed at the SNP. There was never much love lost between them but I think there's a new front just opened up in the Brexit war.

[GlesgaeHibby]

And with a few strong words directed at the SNP. There was never much love lost between them but I think there's a new front just opened up in the Brexit war.

Yep. This is truly painful stuff just now. No deal feels almost inevitable, which in a way is great as it means Scottish Independence is coming but I feel for the rest of the UK having to deal with the mess no deal will cause for years to come.

[Ozyhibby]

From the Irish govt.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190129/e071c47e7b8cde72602b08f49d298cb2.jpg


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[Callum_62]

Yep. This is truly painful stuff just now. No deal feels almost inevitable, which in a way is great as it means Scottish Independence is coming but I feel for the rest of the UK having to deal with the mess no deal will cause for years to come.

Theres a few comments been made that think a no deal BREXIT is bad for the SNP

As it will mean a hard border in Ireland, and therefore a hard border between us and ENG - meaning unlikely to be voted for in IndyRef2

[Ozyhibby]

Theres a few comments been made that think a no deal BREXIT is bad for the SNP

As it will mean a hard border in Ireland, and therefore a hard border between us and ENG - meaning unlikely to be voted for in IndyRef2

I think a no deal is terrible for independence because nobody is going to vote for a hard border with England.


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[Callum_62]

I think a no deal is terrible for independence because nobody is going to vote for a hard border with England.


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then we will just have 'alternative arrangements' :rolleyes:

[Don Giovanni]

14 Labour MPs voted against Cooper. ****ing ********s evey one.

If my maths is correct and the 14 had voted in favor the ammendment would have passed.

:bitchy:

[Callum_62]

what is the actual point of the labour party?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Yep. This is truly painful stuff just now. No deal feels almost inevitable, which in a way is great as it means Scottish Independence is coming but I feel for the rest of the UK having to deal with the mess no deal will cause for years to come.


that's been my thoughts all along as i've always felt a no deal would make it easier to sway the indyref2 undecided to want to remain under european laws, westminster tories will want to strip everything away from Scotland after Brexit, and of course they will get every help they need from our very own Scottish Tories, make no mistake about that :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

what is the actual point of the labour party?


to carry the bags of the tories







well that's the case in Scotland anyway

[James310]

that's been my thoughts all along as i've always felt a no deal would make it easier to sway the indyref2 undecided to want to remain under european laws, westminster tories will want to strip everything away from Scotland after Brexit, and of course they will get every help they need from our very own Scottish Tories, make no mistake about that :agree:

But Scotland would not be in the EU, we would not be voting for Independance and a cast iron guarantee that we would then get into the EU.
That's not going to be on the referendum ballot paper.

[GlesgaeHibby]

But Scotland would not be in the EU, we would not be voting for Independance and a cast iron guarantee that we would then get into the EU.
That's not going to be on the referendum ballot paper.

It would be for an independent Scotland to decide, in which you'd imagine there would be a large majority for rejoining the EU. The EU have already indicated we'd be welcomed.

[James310]

It would be for an independent Scotland to decide, in which you'd imagine there would be a large majority for rejoining the EU. The EU have already indicated we'd be welcomed.

And a hard border with England?

[Bristolhibby]

And a hard border with England?

Let’s just see how Ireland works out in the end.

Also, Gibraltar has appeared to have sorted out its border.

J

[Mr Grieves]

But Scotland would not be in the EU, we would not be voting for Independance and a cast iron guarantee that we would then get into the EU.
That's not going to be on the referendum ballot paper.

We're more likely to be a member of the EU as an independent country than staying in the UK. I doubt rehashing that particular better together argument will work well.

[Mr Grieves]

And a hard border with England?

Is it still 2014, John?

[ronaldo7]

Is it still 2014, John?

😉

[Mr Grieves]

😉

Oh, I meant James :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

And so it begins


US firms seek changes to UK standards on beef and drugs -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

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Hate to say i've been telling people. :boo hoo:

Most still obliviously unaware of where we're heading or what it actually means.

[Hibrandenburg]

From the Irish govt.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190129/e071c47e7b8cde72602b08f49d298cb2.jpg


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It's obviously still pantomime season in Westminster, they've voted to take the only route that isn't open. Madness is repeatedly doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. They've still not understood that little Ireland has a new big mate.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/01/29/amendment-apocalypse-spineless-mps-just-voted-against-realit