Brexit - what will happen next

[marinello59]

Will the DUP split ranks if no confidence is called after the govt loses the meaningful vote? If the DUP is likely to split ranks if the govt loses the meaningful vote, will the meaningful vote ever happen?

On that basis, is it all over already?

The DUP will split from the Tories if May wins the meaningful vote but back her if she loses it. Crazy isn’t it?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The DUP will split from the Tories if May wins the meaningful vote but back her if she loses it. Crazy isn’t it?

Aye, it all has that Alice in Wonderland lunacy about it. The fact is the DUP will not allow the government to fall, so we're stuck with them for now at least. We have months of this farce to come.

[SHODAN]

There's no point in Corbyn putting in a confidence vote as it won't win and will strengthen May's position. I'm not a huge fan of him and I can still see that.

[Bristolhibby]

Aye, it all has that Alice in Wonderland lunacy about it. The fact is the DUP will not allow the government to fall, so we're stuck with them for now at least. We have months of this farce to come.

Thing is, the DUP will bring her down if the option is the backstop. No way they’d swallow that. They would rather see Rome burn.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Sorry but that sounds to me like confirmation bias.

Phase 1 then ratification from the people...yeah right like that’s ever been a process that’s been followed before.

I get the fact that those that wish to remain can put forward plausible arguments for a second vote but there is little or no precedent for that to happen.

What I can say though is for gawds sake can we not just decide to do SOMETHING....this pathetic back and fore is getting rather wearing.

We are in the days of precedence setting. Like has been said, we are through the looking glass now.

Contempt of Parliament, both parties split down the middle, DUP and SNP holding May to account.

Anything is possible.

J

[Saturday Boy]

Thing is, the DUP will bring her down if the option is the backstop. No way they’d swallow that. They would rather see Rome burn.

J

I suspect that the DUP would like to see Rome burn anyway 😉

[Hibernia&Alba]

I suspect that the DUP would like to see Rome burn anyway 😉

:top marks

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't believe these ********s are spending £2Bn (BILLION!) executing plans for a scenario that only the most deranged think would be anything other than disastrous.

wtf is going on? :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

I can't believe these ********s are spending £2Bn (BILLION!) executing plans for a scenario that only the most deranged think would be anything other than disastrous.

wtf is going on? :confused:

They found it on bus.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tory MP Nick Boles (who has been pushing Norway+) says he would resign the Tory whip to vote against no deal.

Hopefully he's the first of many.

[Just Alf]

I can't believe these ********s are spending £2Bn (BILLION!) executing plans for a scenario that only the most deranged think would be anything other than disastrous.

wtf is going on? :confused:Obviously the police and NHS no longer need it... Oh... And and for good measure pot holes etc just add character to the countryside.

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[ronaldo7]

3,500 Troops on stand by. Just in case they need them. WTF

Maybe they'll be deployed to the British border in Ireland.

[Saturday Boy]

3,500 Troops on stand by. Just in case they need them. WTF

Maybe they'll be deployed to the British border in Ireland.

More likely outside food supplies

[ronaldo7]

More likely outside food supplies


Food banks? :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Imagine if an Englishman was treated like this in the Scottish Parliament. And to a good Hibby too.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1075043470841167877

[cabbageandribs1875]

Imagine if an Englishman was treated like this in the Scottish Parliament. And to a good Hibby too.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1075043470841167877



i can't remember his name but another SNP MP was told by Labours Dennis skinner that he was a 'piece of ****' for saying something about Corbyn, but it wasn't picked up by the mics so bercow didn't/couldn't bring about another suspension for the decrepit old goat, another classless corbynista



dennis skinners language towards other MP's has saw him suspended 10(iirc) times over the years

[Hibernia&Alba]

i can't remember his name but another SNP MP was told by Labours Dennis skinner that he was a 'piece of ****' for saying something about Corbyn, but it wasn't picked up by the mics so bercow didn't/couldn't bring about another suspension for the decrepit old goat, another classless corbynista



dennis skinners language towards other MP's has saw him suspended 10(iirc) times over the years

Skinner is a great socialist, if something of an old street brawler. He wants what is best for the millions born without money, and has spent his life fighting their cause. Do you want him or the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg on your side?

[ronaldo7]

Skinner is a great socialist, if something of an old street brawler. He wants what is best for the millions born without money, and has spent his life fighting their cause. Do you want him or the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg on your side?

In this fight, he's on the Leave side. Always has been. He's fought the good fight against the Tories, but went through the lobby with them the other night.:rolleyes:

He's always been a brawler though.

[Tornadoes70]

Skinner is a great socialist, if something of an old street brawler. He wants what is best for the millions born without money, and has spent his life fighting their cause. Do you want him or the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg on your side?

:aok:

A personal favourite of mine along with Tony Benn and Ron Brown. Never scared to vote against the party whips on matters of conscience.

[Hibernia&Alba]

In this fight, he's on the Leave side. Always has been. He's fought the good fight against the Tories, but went through the lobby with them the other night.:rolleyes:

He's always been a brawler though.

Yes. he's always been on the leave side, along with left-wingers like Tony Benn, on the grounds of democratic accountability. I disagree with him on the European issue, but can't blame him for sticking up for an old friend of his like Corbyn.

[heretoday]

He shouldn't use foul language in the House.
I don't care if he's a grand old school Labour brawler.

[Hibrandenburg]

Imagine if an Englishman was treated like this in the Scottish Parliament. And to a good Hibby too.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1075043470841167877

Business as usual.

[Smartie]

Imagine if an Englishman was treated like this in the Scottish Parliament. And to a good Hibby too.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1075043470841167877

That's really made my blood boil.

Seemingly the guy calling out is Winston “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind” Churchill's grandson.

A disgraceful way to call out to anyone, let alone calling it to a democratically elected MP, a leader of the third biggest party in the house of commons, actually in the house of commons.

Nobody in Scotland should ever say something like that to someone from elsewhere, in this country, ever, let alone in parliament.

[Tornadoes70]

That's really made my blood boil.

Seemingly the guy calling out is Winston “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind” Churchill's grandson.

A disgraceful way to call out to anyone, let alone calling it to a democratically elected MP, a leader of the third biggest party in the house of commons, actually in the house of commons.

Nobody in Scotland should ever say something like that to someone from elsewhere, in this country, ever, let alone in parliament.

I agree. There was no need whatsoever for calling out in that way.

[JeMeSouviens]

SNP, Libs, Plaid and Green table no-con motion. Gov can ignore unless Corbyn puts official oppo weight behind it.

[Glory Lurker]

There's no point in Corbyn putting in a confidence vote as it won't win and will strengthen May's position. I'm not a huge fan of him and I can still see that.

But the thing is, if he's never going to win a confidence vote, he's never going to get the GE he's after. So, the question is what's Plan B? Tabling a confidence vote would at least get the first stage of the process out the way. No GE, but massive dissatisfaction with things on both sides of the House. Although he's lost the confidence vote, he's leading the charge. There is a very good chance that there is a majority in favour of a second vote or at the very least rigorous parliamentary scrutiny of the deal, or possible withdrawal (even temporarily) of the Article 50 notice. Leading the charge, Corbyn could align all that behind him. His lack of action over the last couple of days isn't down to there being no point in a no confidence motion rather it is down to him being pro-brexit. He's on the same side as Mogg and Johnson.

[Moulin Yarns]

She doesn't get it.

https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1075157361856311297?s=19

[Fife-Hibee]

A "unicorn that needs to be slaughtered".

More interesting choice of language coming out of the political cesspit. :rolleyes:

[Tornadoes70]

But the thing is, if he's never going to win a confidence vote, he's never going to get the GE he's after. So, the question is what's Plan B? Tabling a confidence vote would at least get the first stage of the process out the way. No GE, but massive dissatisfaction with things on both sides of the House. Although he's lost the confidence vote, he's leading the charge. There is a very good chance that there is a majority in favour of a second vote or at the very least rigorous parliamentary scrutiny of the deal, or possible withdrawal (even temporarily) of the Article 50 notice. Leading the charge, Corbyn could align all that behind him. His lack of action over the last couple of days isn't down to there being no point in a no confidence motion rather it is down to him being pro-brexit. He's on the same side as Mogg and Johnson.

He's entitled to being pro-brexit, its his prerogative.

As for being on the same side as Mogg and Johnson, remainers are on the same side as May, Soubray, Cable etc. A large number of Scots voted Leave in the UK wide referendum.

[Glory Lurker]

He's entitled to being pro-brexit, its his prerogative.

As for being on the same side as Mogg and Johnson, remainers are on the same side as May, Soubray, Cable etc. A large number of Scots voted Leave in the UK wide referendum.

It would be nice if he would just own up to it and concede he's not in opposition to the government on this. Some honesty from him would go a long way.

[Fife-Hibee]

He's entitled to being pro-brexit, its his prerogative.

As for being on the same side as Mogg and Johnson, remainers are on the same side as May, Soubray, Cable etc. A large number of Scots voted Leave in the UK wide referendum.

Considering Mays absolute determination to ensure brexit is forced through without any final say would suggest that she is not on our side.

[Tornadoes70]

It would be nice if he would just own up to it and concede he's not in opposition to the government on this. Some honesty from him would go a long way.

I think its well known he opposes the European Union eventually superceding national government authority. Every party has members for or against brexit.

[Tornadoes70]

Considering Mays absolute determination to ensure brexit is forced through without any final say would suggest that she is not on our side.

I've no idea what May is up to or what's going to happen, however, she was definitely reported to be a one time remainer.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think its well known he opposes the European Union eventually superceding national government authority. Every party has members for or against brexit.

Yep, those awful totalitarian EU plutocrats, trying to clamp down on those tory tax havens. :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

I've no idea what May is up to or what's going to happen, however, she was definitely reported to be a one time remainer.

A lot of things are reported in the UK that aren't. I thought that would be abundantly clear to everyone by now.

[Tornadoes70]

A lot of things are reported in the UK that aren't. I thought that would be abundantly clear to everyone by now.

I definitely remember reading somewhere that May was a certain remainer as lots of tories are.

[CropleyWasGod]

I definitely remember reading somewhere that May was a certain remainer as lots of tories are.She campaigned for Remain. There's no question about that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/theresa-may-wants-you-to-stay-in-the-eu-has-she-blown-her-chance/amp/

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[Tornadoes70]

Yep, those awful totalitarian EU plutocrats, trying to clamp down on those tory tax havens. :rolleyes:

Yep the European Union expansion that will eventually rule supreme over national governments all done solely to clamp down on tory tax havens.

Deary me.

[Tornadoes70]

She campaigned for Remain. There's no question about that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/theresa-may-wants-you-to-stay-in-the-eu-has-she-blown-her-chance/amp/

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Not the paper I would have read it from :greengrin

Thanks though CWG for clearing that one up.

:aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

Yep the European Union expansion that will eventually rule supreme over national governments all done solely to clamp down on tory tax havens.

Deary me.

The UK Governments already existing supreme control over Scotland doesn't seem to bother you though. Funny that.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm gutted.

I live near this caller.

https://youtu.be/VhtYYjV6ITs

[Callum_62]

Given how prepared we were to sort out a couple of drones, a no deal brexit should be a doddle.


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[ronaldo7]

Given how prepared we were to sort out a couple of drones, a no deal brexit should be a doddle.


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We bought fridges instead.:rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm gutted.

I live near this caller.

https://youtu.be/VhtYYjV6ITs

Cringe!!!!

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brits-to-be-told-change-diet-to-cope-with-food-delays-in-event-of-chaotic-brexit-a4023361.html%3famp

The government could stop this madness now by saying there will not be a no deal brexit...

[Callum_62]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brits-to-be-told-change-diet-to-cope-with-food-delays-in-event-of-chaotic-brexit-a4023361.html%3famp

The government could stop this madness now by saying there will not be a no deal brexit...

But instead they are ploughing 2 billion pounds into "preparing" for it

Its an absolute absurdity

[BroxburnHibee]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brits-to-be-told-change-diet-to-cope-with-food-delays-in-event-of-chaotic-brexit-a4023361.html%3famp

The government could stop this madness now by saying there will not be a no deal brexit...

They're using the threat of it to try and win this vote. I still maintain if she doesn't think she'll win she'll pull the vote again.

[Hibbyradge]

Vlad's respect for British democracy is touching ...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1075781127196065792?s=09

[Colr]

Anyone else feel that our democratic system is in utter tatters having shown itself to be unfit for purpose?

[jonty]

I'm gutted.

I live near this caller.

https://youtu.be/VhtYYjV6ITs

he's very good at getting them to dig their own great big hole.

[makaveli1875]

Anyone else feel that our democratic system is in utter tatters having shown itself to be unfit for purpose?

Agreed , ever since they allowed people to vote its gone right downhill .

[Bostonhibby]

Make Chris Grayling brexit secretary.

He'll have a hundred excuses if it doesn't happen and if it does happen he won't notice until about 6 months after the event like everything else he's been responsible for.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Make Chris Grayling brexit secretary.

He'll have a hundred excuses if it doesn't happen and if it does happen he won't notice until about 6 months after the event like everything else he's been responsible for.

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There are both Tory and Labour frontbenchers who fit neatly into stereotypes and Grayling is without a doubt one.

He does vacous, uninspiring, possibly semi-competent but not really providing evidence to support that, and generally pretty dismal.

Grayling comes across as a supporting actor in an Armando Iannucci script. The perfect nondescript Cabinet minister, able enough to get to the level he has but lacking any genuine leadership qualities.

[Bostonhibby]

There are both Tory and Labour frontbenchers who fit neatly into stereotypes and Grayling is without a doubt one.

He does vacous, uninspiring, possibly semi-competent but not really providing evidence to support that, and generally pretty dismal.

Grayling comes across as a supporting actor in an Armando Iannucci script. The perfect nondescript Cabinet minister, able enough to get to the level he has but lacking any genuine leadership qualities.[emoji106]

You've met him then[emoji6]

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[Mibbes Aye]

[emoji106]

You've met him then[emoji6]

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He's an exemplar but sadly the Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet aren't short of rivals for that position.

Same with the other parties.

There's a real paucity of serious political leadership.

I'm not surprised by that. There's been a step change in how we discuss these things.

Decisions and reactions are now instantaneous and conducted in a social media maelstrom.

Considered reflection leading to reasoned debate has almost disappeared.

Politicians actually capable of making serious points and arguing serious policy are drowned out by the need for cheap point-scoring.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Corbyn is a joke, a leader not. Brexit will go ahead even if Labour won a snap election? What the actual f*** ?
It really is time for the Labour hangers on to come to a realisation that the best and only way forward for Scotland is to vote for Independence.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Corbyn is a joke, a leader not. Brexit will go ahead even if Labour won a snap election? What the actual f*** ?
It really is time for the Labour hangers on to come to a realisation that the best and only way forward for Scotland is to vote for Independence.

The only alternative would be to ignore the referendum vote, which cause carnage. Though Labour could offer a second vote on the terms of departure, I don't see how they could keep Britain in the EU. It would probably be electoral suicide.

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn is a joke, a leader not. Brexit will go ahead even if Labour won a snap election? What the actual f*** ?
It really is time for the Labour hangers on to come to a realisation that the best and only way forward for Scotland is to vote for Independence.

He didn't say he'd 'go ahead' with Brexit. Despite the headline. He said he'd go back to Barnier and renegotiate on the agreement, as any UK premier would have to do in that circumstance. He hasn't ruled out holding a second referendum.

[Bostonhibby]

He's an exemplar but sadly the Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet aren't short of rivals for that position.

Same with the other parties.

There's a real paucity of serious political leadership.

I'm not surprised by that. There's been a step change in how we discuss these things.

Decisions and reactions are now instantaneous and conducted in a social media maelstrom.

Considered reflection leading to reasoned debate has almost disappeared.

Politicians actually capable of making serious points and arguing serious policy are drowned out by the need for cheap point-scoring.

Definitely the poorest bunch of people we've had representing us in my lifetime. Everything is knee jerk and short term which could be a product of the electoral system / cycle.


Problem is that turkeys don't vote for Xmas so we're likely to see more of the same or worse for the foreseeable future.

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[GlesgaeHibby]

Corbyn is a joke, a leader not. Brexit will go ahead even if Labour won a snap election? What the actual f*** ?
It really is time for the Labour hangers on to come to a realisation that the best and only way forward for Scotland is to vote for Independence.

Talks about a snap election but fails to call a non-confidence vote in the Government. Claims it's all about timing to maximise chance of success in said election. Also claims to want to renegotiate with the EU after becoming PM. We are just over 3 months away from crashing out of the EU.

So in just over 3 months he is going to bring the government down, win a general election, and renegotiate a deal that took 2 years to get in the first place.:aok:

[Bostonhibby]

Talks about a snap election but fails to call a non-confidence vote in the Government. Claims it's all about timing to maximise chance of success in said election. Also claims to want to renegotiate with the EU after becoming PM. We are just over 3 months away from crashing out of the EU.

So in just over 3 months he is going to bring the government down, win a general election, and renegotiate a deal that took 2 years to get in the first place.:aok:I think the last thing Corbyn actually wants is to be the leader and have to deliver and be accountable for anything. As a person who invariably votes labour it pains me to say it but I'm troubled by this and quite a few of the shadow ministers

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[Colr]

Agreed , ever since they allowed people to vote its gone right downhill .

I was more thinking that the two party system with no checks and balances is not representative or stable.

[southsider]

The utter shambles May has the UK in should have Labour 25-30 points ahead in the polls. Instead the Tories are ahead. Corbin is unelectable. Labour must ditch him and get someone in who will rip May to bits. As for the SNP they have been a disaster up here.

[hibsbollah]

The utter shambles May has the UK in should have Labour 25-30 points ahead in the polls. Instead the Tories are ahead. Corbin is unelectable. Labour must ditch him and get someone in who will rip May to bits. As for the SNP they have been a disaster up here.

Sorry but that's nonsense. When has Labour ever had a 25-30 point lead in the polls? I've had a quick look back Blair was running about 7 points ahead in 1992 and 13 points in 1997 when the Tories were in similar straights to now under Major and Hague/IDS. Labour under Corbyn had a 8 point lead in 2017. I can't see any Labour poll lead EVER much more than that.

[Hibbyradge]

Check out @EmbarrassedBrit’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/EmbarrassedBrit/status/1076215020634234885?s=09

[Callum_62]

The utter shambles May has the UK in should have Labour 25-30 points ahead in the polls. Instead the Tories are ahead. Corbin is unelectable. Labour must ditch him and get someone in who will rip May to bits. As for the SNP they have been a disaster up here.

What party would have better represented Scotland?

Any party who has been in power for 10 years and still receives more votes than all the other parties put together surely cant be seen as a disaster?


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[Bristolhibby]

He didn't say he'd 'go ahead' with Brexit. Despite the headline. He said he'd go back to Barnier and renegotiate on the agreement, as any UK premier would have to do in that circumstance. He hasn't ruled out holding a second referendum.

Well he needs to say that.

Actually TBH, he has said that. His preference is

1. Labour Gov which he then negotiates with the EU. (Not happening anytime soon).
2. Next option is a New People’s Vote - hopefully with Remain on the table.

[RyeSloan]

What party would have better represented Scotland?

Any party who has been in power for 10 years and still receives more votes than all the other parties put together surely cant be seen as a disaster?


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Apart from that’s not true.

They received 37% of the vote in the last general election.

46% of the constituency vote in the Scottish and 41% of the second vote.

Neither of those numbers are over 50% which they would require to make your statement true.

Indeed in the general they won 35 seats with 977k votes compared to the Tories getting only 13 seats with 750k votes.

It’s also a fact that no matter what the SNP do they get votes for the one and only reason that they support Independence so their polling cannot be directly compared to their success (or otherwise) in government.

That’s said a disaster they have not been...radical and transformative also a no as well right enough...

[Callum_62]

If corbyn becomes pm why couldn’t he renegotiate?

The EU has stated this wont happen, but presumably thats in the current climate

Is there anything stopping corbyn withdrawing or extending article 50 and taking a breath before going back to the table?


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[Hibbyradge]

Well he needs to say that.

Actually TBH, he has said that. His preference is

1. Labour Gov which he then negotiates with the EU. (Not happening anytime soon).
2. Next option is a New People’s Vote - hopefully with Remain on the table.

Are you sure?

[Hibrandenburg]

As much as I'd like to see the Tories out of government, to do so now would be madness. As far as the EU is concerned the Brexit clock will still tick no matter which government is in power. Article 50 might be extended but I can't see the EU reopening negotiations. We're now stuck with May's deal, no deal or remain.

[PeeJay]

If corbyn becomes pm why couldn’t he renegotiate?

The EU has stated this wont happen, but presumably thats in the current climate

Is there anything stopping corbyn withdrawing or extending article 50 and taking a breath before going back to the table?


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From "our" perspective here in the EU there is a growing swell of opinion that the best thing for the UK AND the EU is for the UK to leave the EU and then simply experience what it means to be "out there" on its own. After all, the EU did not ask the UK to leave. No deal is looking more and more probable, and if that’s the way it is to be, so be it – time to run this circus out of town … there won't be any more negotiations ...

[Hibrandenburg]

From "our" perspective here in the EU there is a growing swell of opinion that the best thing for the UK AND the EU is for the UK to leave the EU and then simply experience what it means to be "out there" on its own. After all, the EU did not ask the UK to leave. No deal is looking more and more probable, and if that’s the way it is to be, so be it – time to run this circus out of town … there won't be any more negotiations ...


I'd now go further and say the UK definitely needs to leave without a deal, otherwise if they remain or accept a wishy washy deal then Brexiters will forever be able to claim they were right and Britain is better off without the EU. Sometimes you just need to do something to prove it doesn't work and if it does then all the better.

[Callum_62]

From "our" perspective here in the EU there is a growing swell of opinion that the best thing for the UK AND the EU is for the UK to leave the EU and then simply experience what it means to be "out there" on its own. After all, the EU did not ask the UK to leave. No deal is looking more and more probable, and if that’s the way it is to be, so be it – time to run this circus out of town … there won't be any more negotiations ...


but we (uk) now has the option to revoke article 50 without the EU approval

We have absolutely zero excuses to go through with a no deal disaster

[Hibrandenburg]

but we (uk) now has the option to revoke article 50 without the EU approval

We have absolutely zero excuses to go through with a no deal disaster

Disagree. The nation will remain divided unless one side or the other is actually proven wrong.

[PeeJay]

Disagree. The nation will remain divided unless one side or the other is actually proven wrong.

Yeah - bad move by the UK, but looking forward to welcoming the UK back sometime in the not too distant future when the errors of its ways have been revealed ... :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah - bad move by the UK, but looking forward to welcoming the UK back sometime in the not too distant future when the errors of its ways have been revealed ... :greengrin

With a much inferior deal as to what they get now of course. :greengrin

[Colr]

Sorry but that's nonsense. When has Labour ever had a 25-30 point lead in the polls? I've had a quick look back Blair was running about 7 points ahead in 1992 and 13 points in 1997 when the Tories were in similar straights to now under Major and Hague/IDS. Labour under Corbyn had a 8 point lead in 2017. I can't see any Labour poll lead EVER much more than that.

This point in the electoral cycle in the late 90s. Labour were 29 points ahead.

[Hibbyradge]

If David Cameron was, in the infamous words of Vote Leave supremo Dominic Cummings, a “sphinx without a riddle” then for much of 2018 Jeremy Corbyn has been his polar opposite. Indeed, one would have to be especially uncharitable — or deluded — to see in Corbyn the haughty grandeur of an Egyptian deity. A Jupiterian leader, our Jezza most assuredly is not.

Riddles, on the other hand — Corbyn has aplenty. And for my sins, over the last 12 months I have spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to unearth his answers. It has not been a particularly edifying or successful task.

Sure, I have offered the odd conspiratorial clue as to why Corbyn prefers to take the road of most political resistance on Labour’s anti-Semitism scandal; a few post-hoc crumbs of rationality as to why he might turn his back upon a century of Labour internationalism and refuse to condemn Putin’s Salisbury stooges. Yet on Corbyn’s biggest riddle of all — Brexit — I come up short.

Yes, of course he has to manage Labour’s dangerously strained coalition — that much is priced in. But this does not begin to explain the farcical prevarication, the parliamentary witlessness, the flagrant disinterest and, slowly but surely, the outright fear Corbyn seems to exhibit towards all things Brexit. Therefore, as we approach the end of one political year and the start of another, it feels time to substantially revise the theory. Out goes the conspiratorial thinking, in comes a simpler analysis: Jeremy Corbyn has no riddles. The man is inscrutable because there is nothing much to scrutinise. He is just a mediocre, hopelessly over-promoted politician, failing at leadership in the most boring and banal of ways. He cannot take a tough decision.

This needs some qualification. For there are vanishingly few British politicians who are capable of taking such decisions. Parliament has been presented with one in the shape of the Prime Minister’s Withdrawal Agreement and has so far measured up to the task by retreating to the realms of fantasy. There are only three concrete proposals at this stage of the Brexit process: the Prime Minister’s deal, an unmanaged no deal, or revocation of Article 50. Everything else is semantics, pin-dancing, or impossible given the current constraints of time and Parliament. True, Corbyn’s “jobs first” Brexit is a particularly egregious and half-arsed example of a Brexit unicorn. But it is not as if there are any would-be leaders in Labour’s moderate faction offering up more practical alternatives.

Nevertheless, as the actual living breathing Leader of the Opposition, Corbyn deserves special scrutiny. For this job is, lest we forget, an audition for a role that is defined first and foremost by the exercise of power. But with power also comes a unique ability to disappoint people. The capacity for deferring decisions, for not delivering on wild promises, even for blaming the Tories — all that is greatly diminished when the buck stops with you. And what is so unusual about Brexit is that it has catapulted Corbyn into a position where, in possession of the decisive grouping in Parliament’s endless game of Brexit arithmetic, he holds meaningful power over the country’s future direction.

To put it bluntly, this is nosebleed territory for Jeremy Corbyn. Let’s be clear: Corbyn did not come in to politics to exercise power but to protest against its use. Some politicians may consider this a waste of a political life, but it certainly makes for an easier one. Your dividing lines are clear, your morality uncomplicated: on one side a band of brothers, on the other a unifying common enemy. Indeed, it might even be possible, in such a political milieu, to coast through decades without ever taking an active political decision. To merely follow the primary coloured heuristics and “dial in” the solidarity. Let the movement’s cleverer people do the thinking for you.

Power though, as Corbyn is discovering, changes everything. It is perhaps a telling clue that the two issues he has most evaded confronting – anti-Semitism and Brexit – are the two where the Corbynist left is most divided. But it is the latter of these that is his Waterloo – like the Prime Minister his leadership will, whether he likes it or not, be defined by Brexit. Looking towards his friends is no longer any help. Turn one way and he sees the Bennites railing against an anti-democratic capitalist club. Turn the other and he finds New Left disgust at migrant demonisation and the EU viewed as a legal bulwark against Tory reaction. That way Len, this way Diane; the moment approaches where Jeremy Corbyn cannot avoid his Brexit choice anymore. People he trusts, people he sympathises with, people he has campaigned with for decades are going to be disappointed with him. And he is terrified.

[Colr]

Disagree. The nation will remain divided unless one side or the other is actually proven wrong.

Or there’s a good old compromise were we all get a bit of what we want which is pretty much what May has come up with.

[Hibrandenburg]

Or there’s a good old compromise were we all get a bit of what we want which is pretty much what May has come up with.

Not a chance. Both sides of the divide will be able to blame the compromises made to the other in the deal when anything negative happens. Opinion on both sides is entrenched.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn faces furious Labour backlash over backing Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/corbyn-faces-furious-backlash-over-backing-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[Just Alf]

Or there’s a good old compromise were we all get a bit of what we want which is pretty much what May has come up with.
Not a chance. Both sides of the divide will be able to blame the compromises made to the other in the deal when anything negative happens. Opinion on both sides is entrenched.May's biggest mistake was to treat the 16 million for leave and the 15 million against (and the 9/10 million that didn't vote) as a 100% vote for leave.

If she'd involved folks from all sides (and parties) from day one I can't help but feel we'd be much nearer a consensus in parliament for the agreed deal.

Caveat... Can't remember the exact 'millions' as playing pool but its along those lines proportion wise...



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

May's biggest mistake was to treat the 16 million for leave and the 15 million against (and the 9/10 million that didn't vote) as a 100% vote for leave.

If she'd involved folks from all sides (and parties) from day one I can't help but feel we'd be much nearer a consensus in parliament for the agreed deal.

Caveat... Can't remember the exact 'millions' as playing pool but its along those lines proportion wise...



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Well in balanced world that’s what would happen...vote accepted, consensus brokered on the terms, leave.

But it was never gonna happen.

[Just Alf]

Well in balanced world that’s what would happen...vote accepted, consensus brokered on the terms, leave.

But it was never gonna happen.Indeed... An opportunity missed (on all sides)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Jack Hackett]

May's biggest mistake was to treat the 16 million for leave and the 15 million against (and the 9/10 million that didn't vote) as a 100% vote for leave.

If she'd involved folks from all sides (and parties) from day one I can't help but feel we'd be much nearer a consensus in parliament for the agreed deal.

Caveat... Can't remember the exact 'millions' as playing pool but its along those lines proportion wise...



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The haste with which she announced and then invoked A50 and its timeline was nothing less than absurd... and monumentally stupid. Another self-serving action to prove herself 'suitable' and endear her to the brexit means brexit mob

[Hibbyradge]

The haste with which she announced and then invoked A50 and its timeline was nothing less than absurd... and monumentally stupid. Another self-serving action to prove herself 'suitable' and endear her to the brexit means brexit mob

She was too slow according to some ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/amp/

[hibsbollah]

Corbyn faces furious Labour backlash over backing Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/corbyn-faces-furious-backlash-over-backing-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Corbyn has in no sense 'backed Brexit'.

Neither has he 'turned his back on Europe' as their headline claimed in a David Miliband opinion piece yesterday which had no such text in the body of the article.

Both articles are deliberate attempts to deceive. And there's no way out for the victim; you deny it, attempt to give your actual position and the message is that you are flip flopping or prevaricating or being in a muddle again.
There is literally no safe place to find genuine accurate reporting on UK political matters. Maybe the FT.

And people wonder why echo chambers happen.

[Hibbyradge]

Corbyn has in no sense 'backed Brexit'.

Neither has he 'turned his back on Europe' as their headline claimed in a David Miliband opinion piece yesterday which had no such text in the body of the article.

Both articles are deliberate attempts to deceive. And there's no way out for the victim; you deny it, attempt to give your actual position and the message is that you are flip flopping or prevaricating or being in a muddle again.
There is literally no safe place to find genuine accurate reporting on UK political matters. Maybe the FT.

And people wonder why echo chambers happen.

Ok. I hope you're right.

What is his position on Brexit?

Will he try to stop it?

[hibsbollah]

Ok. I hope you're right.

What is his position on Brexit?

Will he try to stop it?

Steer a middle course between two extremities and keep your head down.

I still don't know if he'll actively try to 'stop Brexit', I'm not sure Labour is going to openly come out and saying you want to 'stop' something that, sadly, has democratic legitimacy.

I think Labour front bench wants a second referendum but they want someone else to do the dirty work and pay the political price. For all the complaining that Corbyn has been a rebel all his life, a professional campaigner with no idea of governing or power, his Party is playing a canny long game which is exactly that! But as I've been moaning about previously, far too much emphasis on him personally. There will be other influences and major influences on direction from elsewhere in the shadow cabinet.

[Hibbyradge]

Steer a middle course between two extremities and keep your head down.

I still don't know if he'll actively try to 'stop Brexit', I'm not sure Labour is going to openly come out and saying you want to 'stop' something that, sadly, has democratic legitimacy.

I think Labour front bench wants a second referendum but they want someone else to do the dirty work and pay the political price. For all the complaining that Corbyn has been a rebel all his life, a professional campaigner with no idea of governing or power, his Party is playing a canny long game which is exactly that! But as I've been moaning about previously, far too much emphasis on him personally. There will be other influences and major influences on direction from elsewhere in the shadow cabinet.

You're a loyal man, Bollah.

[Hibrandenburg]

Steer a middle course between two extremities and keep your head down.

I still don't know if he'll actively try to 'stop Brexit', I'm not sure Labour is going to openly come out and saying you want to 'stop' something that, sadly, has democratic legitimacy.

I think Labour front bench wants a second referendum but they want someone else to do the dirty work and pay the political price. For all the complaining that Corbyn has been a rebel all his life, a professional campaigner with no idea of governing or power, his Party is playing a canny long game which is exactly that! But as I've been moaning about previously, far too much emphasis on him personally. There will be other influences and major influences on direction from elsewhere in the shadow cabinet.

:agree: He's sat on the fence waiting to see which way the Brexit wind is blowing instead of showing leadership and trying to steer his party or the electorate. At a time where the country is crying out for a leader he is carrying out a damage limitation exercise. Political cowardice.

[Smartie]

:agree: He's sat on the fence waiting to see which way the Brexit wind is blowing instead of showing leadership and trying to steer his party or the electorate. At a time where the country is crying out for a leader he is carrying out a damage limitation exercise. Political cowardice.

I think that's a wee bit harsh on him.

Hard as it may be for some folk to understand, there are sometimes bigger issues than simple constitutional ones. Whilst many of us focus on the black and white, good vs evil issues of Yes or No, Leave or Remain, there are many who are bothered about the likes of social justice over whether more of our laws are made in Brussels, London or Edinburgh.

I'm a remainer myself, but I wouldn't think any less of someone like Corbyn if he came out as an ardent Brexiteer if it was for the right reasons. To support Brexit you don't have to be a racist middle-Englander, there is a perfectly plausible left wing angle to being anti-EU (see Tony Benn).

What I think Cobyn lacks is ultra-cynical political opportunism. I think he's a good man, someone whose ideas and morals resonate with many, but not a natural leader.

Rather than playing a clever long game, I think he's dithering, a bit scared to make decisive wrong call on a difficult issue on which it is very easy to alienate supporters and potential supporters.

Brexit is easy for the LibDems and UKIP as we all know where they stand regarding Europe. For Labour and the Tories it is "all very complex" as Banderson might say.

[hibsbollah]

:santa:cheers:

Anyway, a Merry Christmas and a happy and long (50 year+?) transition period everyone.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that's a wee bit harsh on him.

Hard as it may be for some folk to understand, there are sometimes bigger issues than simple constitutional ones. Whilst many of us focus on the black and white, good vs evil issues of Yes or No, Leave or Remain, there are many who are bothered about the likes of social justice over whether more of our laws are made in Brussels, London or Edinburgh.

I'm a remainer myself, but I wouldn't think any less of someone like Corbyn if he came out as an ardent Brexiteer if it was for the right reasons. To support Brexit you don't have to be a racist middle-Englander, there is a perfectly plausible left wing angle to being anti-EU (see Tony Benn).

What I think Cobyn lacks is ultra-cynical political opportunism. I think he's a good man, someone whose ideas and morals resonate with many, but not a natural leader.

Rather than playing a clever long game, I think he's dithering, a bit scared to make decisive wrong call on a difficult issue on which it is very easy to alienate supporters and potential supporters.

Brexit is easy for the LibDems and UKIP as we all know where they stand regarding Europe. For Labour and the Tories it is "all very complex" as Banderson might say.

I agree with most of that Smartie, I think we're saying similar just you're doing it a bit more diplomatically than I.

Merry Christmas to you and your's and here's hoping 2019 brings us some politics that unites us rather than divides us.

[Colr]

Corbyn has in no sense 'backed Brexit'.

Neither has he 'turned his back on Europe' as their headline claimed in a David Miliband opinion piece yesterday which had no such text in the body of the article.

Both articles are deliberate attempts to deceive. And there's no way out for the victim; you deny it, attempt to give your actual position and the message is that you are flip flopping or prevaricating or being in a muddle again.
There is literally no safe place to find genuine accurate reporting on UK political matters. Maybe the FT.

And people wonder why echo chambers happen.
Well this is one strategy emerging from one of his circle

https://mobile.twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/1076952646500712448

[Hibbyradge]

Well this is one strategy emerging from one of his circle

https://mobile.twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/1076952646500712448

Can you make the link work, please.

[Moulin Yarns]

Can you make the link work, please.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/1076952646500712448

I prefer this tweet https://mobile.twitter.com/DerekBateman2/status/1078569812916404224

[Just Alf]

So Department for Transport has awarded Ferry contracts worth an extra £108 million to mainly European companies to help alleviate delays at Dover.

"In documents outlining the agreements, the DfT states that an "unforeseeable" situation of "extreme urgency" meant there was no time for the contracts to be put out to tender - the standard practice for public procurements."

What gets me is "unforeseeable" and "extreme urgency".... even on here, far less within government, we've been talking about this sort of thing for ages... Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

The only way to solve this is to leave with no deal and resort to WTO terms.

This will focus minds within the EU and the UK to really start getting a deal worth of the name.

[Moulin Yarns]

The only way to solve this is to leave with no deal and resort to WTO terms.

This will focus minds within the EU and the UK to really start getting a deal worth of the name.

What you are saying is to get a better deal the UK should leave with no deal, and then negotiate a deal. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

You're a loyal man, Bollah.

Not particularly, I'm kind of neutral about the party's performance on Europe. Pretty much the same as most Labour voters, there's no evidence that voters are turning against the Party (March 2017, when she triggered Article 50, the Tories were 19 points ahead, now they are 4).
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/03/10/voting-intention-conservatives-44-labour-25-8-9-ma

[Just Alf]

The only way to solve this is to leave with no deal and resort to WTO terms.

This will focus minds within the EU and the UK to really start getting a deal worth of the name.I'm thinking the EU might be a bit happier with their lot.... It's us that might be thinking something different seeing as we've managed to crash ourselves out of this.

A whole new world for free trade? -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46601315


"another big FTA is expected to come into effect on 1 February

The EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement will create an open trading zone covering a market of more than 600 million people and nearly one third of the world's GDP.

It has been in the making since 2013 and is the first trade deal to include an explicit reference to the Paris Agreement."

Ach well....

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[Colr]

So Department for Transport has awarded Ferry contracts worth an extra £108 million to mainly European companies to help alleviate delays at Dover.

"In documents outlining the agreements, the DfT states that an "unforeseeable" situation of "extreme urgency" meant there was no time for the contracts to be put out to tender - the standard practice for public procurements."

What gets me is "unforeseeable" and "extreme urgency".... even on here, far less within government, we've been talking about this sort of thing for ages... Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

That’ a thousand affordable homes worth and they would pay the money back over time.

[Bristolhibby]

So Department for Transport has awarded Ferry contracts worth an extra £108 million to mainly European companies to help alleviate delays at Dover.

"In documents outlining the agreements, the DfT states that an "unforeseeable" situation of "extreme urgency" meant there was no time for the contracts to be put out to tender - the standard practice for public procurements."

What gets me is "unforeseeable" and "extreme urgency".... even on here, far less within government, we've been talking about this sort of thing for ages... Sigh....

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

You’ll probably find that there isn’t the capacity in the British Ferry market to make a dent in it. I guess that explains the lack of complaint.

People simply don’t understand how the real world works. £108m seems like a lot, but in the grand scheme it’s peanuts.

J

[Just Alf]

You’ll probably find that there isn’t the capacity in the British Ferry market to make a dent in it. I guess that explains the lack of complaint.

People simply don’t understand how the real world works. £108m seems like a lot, but in the grand scheme it’s peanuts.

J

I know, what I'm really saying, I guess, is that all these £100 odd millions spent here and there wouldn't need spent at all if we weren't leaving. .... And if we actually did have the money to hand, it could be spent on housing, roads, NHS etc.

[Jack]

I know, what I'm really saying, I guess, is that all these £100 odd millions spent here and there wouldn't need spent at all if we weren't leaving. .... And if we actually did have the money to hand, it could be spent on housing, roads, NHS etc.

Thank goodness nobody has told you about the £2bn or so already spent on this racket.

[Just Alf]

Thank goodness nobody has told you about the £2bn or so already spent on this racket.:-)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

I know, what I'm really saying, I guess, is that all these £100 odd millions spent here and there wouldn't need spent at all if we weren't leaving. .... And if we actually did have the money to hand, it could be spent on housing, roads, NHS etc.

The NHS doesn’t need any money they will soon be rolling in it, £350m a week said the Brexit Bus 😀

[Just Alf]

The NHS doesn’t need any money they will soon be rolling in it, £350m a week said the Brexit Bus 😀

Aw dam! .... Forgot about that... Silly me! :doh:








:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Not particularly, I'm kind of neutral about the party's performance on Europe. Pretty much the same as most Labour voters, there's no evidence that voters are turning against the Party (March 2017, when she triggered Article 50, the Tories were 19 points ahead, now they are 4).
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/03/10/voting-intention-conservatives-44-labour-25-8-9-ma

Labour should be 19 points ahead by now but that's another discussion.

Most Labour voters want to remain in the EU.

If Labour helps the ERG take us out, I have no doubt that Labour will lose support of many of them.

[hibsbollah]

Labour should be 19 points ahead by now but that's another discussion.

Most Labour voters want to remain in the EU.

If Labour helps the ERG take us out, I have no doubt that Labour will lose support of many of them.

I responded to another poster who made fanciful and ridiculous claims about how Labour should be 25-30 points ahead. There's just no historical precedent for this. Even Blair, whos policies managed to appeal to moneyed southern England, struggled to get more than a 5-10 point lead, and that was against the joke post Maastricht meltdown Tories (Corbyn himself was 8 points ahead less than a year ago!).

No Labour party will ever be 19+ points ahead in the UK, regardless of who the leader is.

[Mibbes Aye]

I responded to another poster who made fanciful and ridiculous claims about how Labour should be 25-30 points ahead. There's just no historical precedent for this. Even Blair, whos policies managed to appeal to moneyed southern England, struggled to get more than a 5-10 point lead, and that was against the joke post Maastricht meltdown Tories (Corbyn himself was 8 points ahead less than a year ago!).

No Labour party will ever be 19+ points ahead in the UK, regardless of who the leader is.

Misses the point that Blair got the same vote swing and share of the popular vote in 1997/2001 that Corbyn did when he stood.

Blair turned it into super-majorities of well over 150 both times.

Corbyn failed to win.

Corbyn wins voters who felt disenfranchised and who were angry at Blair over Iraq. They merely added to majorities in safe Labour seats.

Blair won marginals for Labour and formed a government. Corbyn takes the same shifts and fails to unseat a terrible Tory government.

That's all that needs to be said.

[hibsbollah]

Misses the point that Blair got the same vote swing and share of the popular vote in 1997/2001 that Corbyn did when he stood.

Blair turned it into super-majorities of well over 150 both times.

Corbyn failed to win.

Corbyn wins voters who felt disenfranchised and who were angry at Blair over Iraq. They merely added to majorities in safe Labour seats.

Blair won marginals for Labour and formed a government. Corbyn takes the same shifts and fails to unseat a terrible Tory government.

That's all that needs to be said.

It really isn't 'all that needs to be said' at all. Unless you don't want to understand what is happening in politics. You have previous of this kind of debating style, you ignore polls when they disprove your vapid arguments, and repeat them ad nauseum when they appear to support them.

To be taken seriously, you need to acknowledge the massive vote swing to Labour was relevant. They did not win the general election, but the Tories can't govern effectively because of the hung parliament that resulted from the vote swing. You were on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election. When that didn't happen, you disappeared from these threads for a long time, before reappearing with this weird narrative that the election was a failure for Labour because they didn't win an outright majority despite coming from 21 points behind :dunno:

Politics is a process.

[Mibbes Aye]

It really isn't 'all that needs to be said' at all. Unless you don't want to understand what is happening in politics. You have previous of this kind of debating style, you ignore polls when they disprove your vapid arguments, and repeat them ad nauseum when they appear to support them.

To be taken seriously, you need to acknowledge the massive vote swing to Labour was relevant. They did not win the general election, but the Tories can't govern effectively because of the hung parliament that resulted from the vote swing. You were on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election. When that didn't happen, you disappeared from these threads for a long time, before reappearing with this weird narrative that the election was a failure for Labour because they didn't win an outright majority despite coming from 21 points behind :dunno:

Politics is a process.

Except I didn't really, did I?

Feel free to prove otherwise.

To use your words, if you need to be taken seriously you need to acknowledge that Corbyn can't be taken seriously.

Because he took vote swings and vote shares that gave Blair majorities in excess of 150 and Corbyn turned them into Tory governments.

[hibsbollah]

Except I didn't really, did I?

Feel free to prove otherwise.

To use your words, if you need to be taken seriously you need to acknowledge that Corbyn can't be taken seriously.

Because he took vote swings and vote shares that gave Blair majorities in excess of 150 and Corbyn turned them into Tory governments.

You really did.

Corbyn 'cant be taken seriously' is your opinion. The vote swing I refer to is an actual fact. You're asking me to accept your opinion as fact, when you can't even accept a fact as a fact. Do you understand the difference?

Your final paragraph is meaningless. Blair was last in power in 2007. Therefore Corbyn hasn't 'lost' Blair's majority. That majority was lost in the intervening years.

[Mibbes Aye]

You really did.

Corbyn 'cant be taken seriously' is your opinion. The vote swing I refer to is an actual fact. You're asking me to accept your opinion as fact, when you can't even accept a fact as a fact. Do you understand the difference?

Your final paragraph is meaningless. Blair was last in power in 2007. Therefore Corbyn hasn't 'lost' Blair's majority. That majority was lost in the intervening years.

So when you said I was on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election and then disappeared from threads.

Can you actually back that up?

Or would you just rather save us both some time and retract it. You don't have to say you were wrong or a dick, I'm easygoing.

[Mibbes Aye]

You really did.

Corbyn 'cant be taken seriously' is your opinion. The vote swing I refer to is an actual fact. You're asking me to accept your opinion as fact, when you can't even accept a fact as a fact. Do you understand the difference?

Your final paragraph is meaningless. Blair was last in power in 2007. Therefore Corbyn hasn't 'lost' Blair's majority. That majority was lost in the intervening years.

Question?

Why did Blair turn vote share and vote swing into super-majorities?

Why did Corbyn not?

In your own time. Please however don't regress to to your previous posts where it was a big bad media etc etc. Labour has faced that for years.

[hibsbollah]

So when you said I was on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election and then disappeared from threads.

Can you actually back that up?

Or would you just rather save us both some time and retract it. You don't have to say you were wrong or a dick, I'm easygoing.

I'm not going to trawl through threads, i have more interesting things to do. But I recall you being conspicuous by your absence post election.

My desire or otherwise to trawl through old threads doesn't prove one way or another whether I'm a dick.

I'd like you to engage with the substance of my posts, but if you're unwilling to do so that's your perogative.

[hibsbollah]

Question?

Why did Blair turn vote share and vote swing into super-majorities?

Why did Corbyn not?

In your own time. Please however don't regress to to your previous posts where it was a big bad media etc etc. Labour has faced that for years.

I can 'regress' to any previous points I've made in the past whenever I want, cheers. And, yes, I'll do so in my own time. But I'm not going to answer your questions on demand when you scrupulously never respond to any of mine.

As long as someone isn't a condescending ********, I'll get into a debate with anyone.

[Colr]

Labour should be 19 points ahead by now but that's another discussion.

Most Labour voters want to remain in the EU.

If Labour helps the ERG take us out, I have no doubt that Labour will lose support of many of them.

I think Jez would like to form an international socialist collective instead.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not going to trawl through threads, i have more interesting things to do. But I recall you being conspicuous by your absence post election.

My desire or otherwise to trawl through old threads doesn't prove one way or another whether I'm a dick.

I'd like you to engage with the substance of my posts, but if you're unwilling to do so that's your perogative.

The substance of your post was that I was on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election and then disappearing, your own words.

If you're going to talk the talk then walk the walk. I'm calling you out.

I don't think you can back it up.

[Mibbes Aye]

I can 'regress' to any previous points I've made in the past whenever I want, cheers. And, yes, I'll do so in my own time. But I'm not going to answer your questions on demand when you scrupulously never respond to any of mine.

As long as someone isn't a condescending ********, I'll get into a debate with anyone.

Simples then, your opinion.

Why did Blair make the vote swing a super majority?

Why did Corbyn make it a Tory government?

[hibsbollah]

The substance of your post was that I was on here for months predicting a humiliating hammering in the election and then disappearing, your own words.

If you're going to talk the talk then walk the walk. I'm calling you out.

I don't think you can back it up.

You're boring. I stand by what I said.

And I think you're deflecting because you have nothing interesting to say about the topic.

[Colr]

I responded to another poster who made fanciful and ridiculous claims about how Labour should be 25-30 points ahead. There's just no historical precedent for this. Even Blair, whos policies managed to appeal to moneyed southern England, struggled to get more than a 5-10 point lead, and that was against the joke post Maastricht meltdown Tories (Corbyn himself was 8 points ahead less than a year ago!).

No Labour party will ever be 19+ points ahead in the UK, regardless of who the leader is.

Have a look at this link:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/oct/21/icm-poll-data-labour-conservatives

There’s a data download at the bottom to all the polls since 1984.

In the 90s under Blair Labour opened and maintained a very substantial lead.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're boring. I stand by what I said.

And I think you're deflecting because you have nothing interesting to say about the topic.

Right.

So you can't back it up.

You would have more respect in my eyes if you just said that.

[hibsbollah]

Simples then, your opinion.

Why did Blair make the vote swing a super majority?

Why did Corbyn make it a Tory government?

Neither of your questions make any sense. Especially the second one. So in that sense, they are very simple, well done.

I think perhaps it's late, and you've got irritable.

[hibsbollah]

Right.

So you can't back it up.

You would have more respect in my eyes if you just said that.

I couldn't give a monkeys about your respect.

[Mibbes Aye]

Neither of your questions make any sense. Especially the second one. So in that sense, they are very simple, well done.

I think perhaps it's late, and you've got irritable.

Ad hominem. Really?

Any time you want, explain to those of us who don't understand, why Jeremy Corbyn won a vote swing and a shift in the popular vote that was equal to Tony Blair in the landslide years.

Then explain to us why Tony Blair turned them into 150-plus majorities and Jeremy Corybyn turned them into Tory government.

[Mibbes Aye]

I couldn't give a monkeys about your respect.

Good chat. I always thought the Holy Ground was better.

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour should be 19 points ahead by now but that's another discussion.

Most Labour voters want to remain in the EU.

If Labour helps the ERG take us out, I have no doubt that Labour will lose support of many of them.

Labour offer nothing for the 5.4 million EU citizens living in Scotland. I consider myself an international democratic socialist but see very little evidence that the Labour party or Scottish Labour hold similar values, in fact I can't shake the feeling that they are willing to cut their cloth to a nationalist agenďa should public opinion remain pro Brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think Jez would like to form an international socialist collective instead.

I think Jez will go where the wind is blowing.

[Hibbyradge]

I responded to another poster who made fanciful and ridiculous claims about how Labour should be 25-30 points ahead. There's just no historical precedent for this. Even Blair, whos policies managed to appeal to moneyed southern England, struggled to get more than a 5-10 point lead, and that was against the joke post Maastricht meltdown Tories (Corbyn himself was 8 points ahead less than a year ago!).

No Labour party will ever be 19+ points ahead in the UK, regardless of who the leader is.

As I said, that is for another discussion.

You didn't comment on my main points about Labour and Brexit.

[Colr]

I think Jez will go where the wind is blowing.

Jez hasn’t changed his preferred destination in all his years in politics. Its an article of faith.

[hibsbollah]

As I said, that is for another discussion.

You didn't comment on my main points about Labour and Brexit.

Yes that's true, my response to you wasn't really on topic.

I agree with both points, a majority of Labour voters are against Brexit, and if Labour is perceived to have supported it, they'll lose the support of most of the Remainers. Even if Labour are perceived to have their thumb up their erses while it happens, as opposed to outright trotting through the lobbies with Jacob Rees Sauron, they will lose the support of some of them.

Brexit emphasises the fact that at the UK level, Labour and Tories don't represent cohesive voting blocs anymore. I don't think the two party system as we know it will last another ten years.

[grunt]

The only way to solve this is to leave with no deal and resort to WTO terms.
This will focus minds within the EU and the UK to really start getting a deal worth of the name.

Even the Leave Alliance people thought that leaving without a deal would be a disaster.

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128



One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected.

[matty_f]

That’ a thousand affordable homes worth and they would pay the money back over time.

I wonder who benefits from this situation - wouldn't be at all surprised if there are friends of the Tories who have now got contracts that could not have been won if they'd gone out to tender.

[Jack Hackett]

The only way to solve this is to leave with no deal and resort to WTO terms.

This will focus minds within the EU and the UK to really start getting a deal worth of the name.

Please... Listen to this call to James O'Brien, from an actual expert on trade deals and the WTO, not some pie in the sky, hope and a prayer, brexiteer.



https://youtu.be/5DIz9UTmMQk

It's only 6 minutes long, but will help give you an understanding about what kind of ****storm is on the horizon

[Just Alf]

Please... Listen to this call to James O'Brien, from an actual expert on trade deals and the WTO, not some pie in the sky, hope and a prayer, brexiteer.



https://youtu.be/5DIz9UTmMQk

It's only 6 minutes long, but will help give you an understanding about what kind of ****storm is on the horizonThat was worth listening too.

Interestingly the US are looking to vote AGAINST us joining the WTO unless we give up a lot of our requirements, they don't want us to just "lift and shift" the current rules we operate under via the EU.

On the other hand the Ambassador / Trump say if we sign up to the current UK/EU deal we'll not get a deal with the US

So from a US perspective the ONLY way to have deal with them is to capitulate everything and follow whatever deal the US wants us to have?

Feels like they're trying to push us into a corner... Sigh... This Brexit thing gets worse day by day.

Oh don't worry, we're getting back control I suppose!


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wonder who benefits from this situation - wouldn't be at all surprised if there are friends of the Tories who have now got contracts that could not have been won if they'd gone out to tender.

Good grief, how could you possibly imagine such a thing? 😒

[Bangkok Hibby]

Good grief, how could you possibly imagine such a thing? 😒
Brexit is every Torys Xmas come at once FFS Britain wake up!!!

[ronaldo7]

Not seen much on here about the three contracts given to shipping:wink: companies in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The £14Million given to Seaborne Freight seems to have attracted all the headlines, as they've no ships, and have never shipped anything in their puff. One of the first actions of the board after receiving the contract from the Tories, was to give themselves a consultancy fees payment of nearly £82,000

The other two contracts are for the Danish firm DFDS, and the French controlled, Brittany Ferries, now that's what I call taking back control.:rolleyes:

I wonder if one of the established British journalists will run this story to ground?

Who will be at the end of the line?

[Callum_62]

Not seen much on here about the three contracts given to shipping:wink: companies in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The £14Million given to Seaborne Freight seems to have attracted all the headlines, as they've no ships, and have never shipped anything in their puff. One of the first actions of the board after receiving the contract from the Tories, was to give themselves a consultancy fees payment of nearly £82,000

The other two contracts are for the Danish firm DFDS, and the French controlled, Brittany Ferries, now that's what I call taking back control.:rolleyes:

I wonder if one of the established British journalists will run this story to ground?

Who will be at the end of the line?

The brother of the tories biggest donor is what i read earlier


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[ronaldo7]

The brother of the tories biggest donor is what i read earlier


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Ah, I suppose he can ask for a loan of one of those machines to scoop up all that taxpayers cash.

[Callum_62]

Ah, I suppose he can ask for a loan of one of those machines to scoop up all that taxpayers cash.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181231/276553d0ebe9e3c6372f8bf2ae335db9.jpg



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[hibsbollah]

Meanwhile...

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/1230/1019570-tax-avoidance/?fbclid=IwAR0fDiPynhdBNhPE-ozyWTfhpvV-5Mu0EvmJMo0vwSRJjI4HT6ztrpTzcHI

[Hibbyradge]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181231/276553d0ebe9e3c6372f8bf2ae335db9.jpg



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That's closer to the truth than you could possibly imagine!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/30/no-deal-brexit-ferry-company-owns-no-ships-and-has-never-run-ferry-service

[Callum_62]

That's closer to the truth than you could possibly imagine!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/30/no-deal-brexit-ferry-company-owns-no-ships-and-has-never-run-ferry-service

I had seen the background on the story

Its absolutely scandalous

If the link between the donor is true, surely to christ someone has to be taken to task


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[JeMeSouviens]

Top trolling by London mayor Sadiq Khan:

https://www.prexamples.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DvyYR0dX0AAPRb--1024x613.jpg

Brexiteers be raging. :greengrin

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Brexit is every Torys Xmas come at once FFS Britain wake up!!!

I was being sarcastic.

[ronaldo7]

Top trolling by London mayor Sadiq Khan:

https://www.prexamples.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DvyYR0dX0AAPRb--1024x613.jpg

Brexiteers be raging. :greengrin

Julia Hartley brewer has gone over the edge.

[Bangkok Hibby]

I was being sarcastic.

Didn't think anything else.

[Jack Hackett]

Top trolling by London mayor Sadiq Khan:

https://www.prexamples.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DvyYR0dX0AAPRb--1024x613.jpg

Brexiteers be raging. :greengrin

Brilliant Middle Finger :top marks

[Sylar]

There are murmerings that May is planning to pull the January 15th vote in Parliament on her deal...

[Callum_62]

There are murmerings that May is planning to pull the January 15th vote in Parliament on her deal...

That came from David Davis saying she could if shes not guaranteed to win

Surely no tho


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[Moulin Yarns]

There are murmerings that May is planning to pull the January 15th vote in Parliament on her deal...

Then what?

[Jack Hackett]

Then what?

Get ready for 'No Deal'. She hasn't got it in her to reverse her 'No 2nd ref' stance. I see trouble ahead

[Just Alf]

Get ready for 'No Deal'. She hasn't got it in her to reverse her 'No 2nd ref' stance. I see trouble aheadThis is now getting worrying! If you look deep enough (and read between the lines) the government's own advice is to take some mitigating preparations, certainly at a company level and possibly at a personal level to cover up to 6 months...

So from a personal level what do we (can we) actually do?... Buy loads of bottled water and pot noodles? (other brands available!)

:-).

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[Slavers]

This is now getting worrying! If you look deep enough (and read between the lines) the government's own advice is to take some mitigating preparations, certainly at a company level and possibly at a personal level to cover up to 6 months...

So from a personal level what do we (can we) actually do?... Buy loads of bottled water and pot noodles? (other brands available!)

:-).

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Surely you could eat Aberdeen Angus stake, east Lothian mushrooms and potatoes then drink some tap water?

[Just Alf]

Surely you could eat Aberdeen Angus stake, east Lothian mushrooms and potatoes then drink some tap water?Now that you mention it :-)




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[GlesgaeHibby]

There are murmerings that May is planning to pull the January 15th vote in Parliament on her deal...

Surely not, but wouldn't surprise me. This rotten government needs brought down.

[bigwheel]

Some depressing stats out this week on Poverty Rates...


The Arc of Prosperity

Poverty rate in 2018.
(Eurostat)

UK: 23.2%
Spain: 22.3%
Greece: 21.2%
Italy: 20.6%
Portugal: 19.0%
Poland: 17.3%
Ireland: 16.6%
Germany: 16.5%
Sweden: 16.2%
Belgium: 15.5%
France: 13.6%
Norway: 12.3%
Denmark: 11.9%
Finland: 11.7%

[Jack Hackett]

This just popped up on my Quora feed... I tend to agree with the published answer

Given a choice of a second referendum or a no-deal brexit following her agreement being rejected, which will Mrs May choose? I can't see any other realistic options open to her. (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her)



https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-thumb-133658709-50-upmqhbzecxrcsiqgoxnjmehlbniivlaz.jpeg (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)


Andrew Puckering (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)
Answered Dec 28 (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her/answer/Andrew-Puckering) · Upvoted by Lance Sagar (https://www.quora.com/profile/Lance-Sagar), lives in The United Kingdom (1983-present)

There is one option that hasn’t been much talked about in public yet, and it scares the EU negotiators and business leaders witless - or at least it should if they realise it.
We are getting closer and closer to 29 March when we must crash out of the EU without a deal if no deal is in place - or revoke Article 50. The PM’s deal will be voted down, so when that happens we must revoke Article 50 if we are to avoid crashing out.
There’s not enough time to organise a second referendum or renegotiate before 29 March. While some MPs may want to crash out with no deal, I do not believe the majority of MPs will allow that - so an amendment will be tabled to the meaningful vote preventing a no-deal scenario, and the amendment will be accepted and passed.
So we’ll revoke Article 50 - but not publicly cancel Brexit. Instead it will be official government policy to be committed to an advantageous Brexit at some future date, when the conditions become more suitable. The government’s line will be that it was a terrible shame that Brexit had to be postponed, but they still want Britain to have Brexit and to make a success of it, and they won’t want to jeopardise that by having a second referendum. They will pay continual lip service to Brexit without risking much to deliver it.
So… why wouldn’t the EU rejoice at this? Why wouldn’t they like having the UK still temporarily in the fold?
Because it’s messy and it provides no certainty. It’s a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads which we can use to threaten them with and still be awkward. It’ll be kicking the can down the road with no end in sight. This is precisely why they tried so hard to stop the European Court of Justice from allowing Britain to unilaterally revoke Article 50. Business leaders will at least be content at not having to deal with a no-deal Brexit, but will hold off on any major long-term investment into the UK until they receive clarity about what kind of Brexit we’ll eventually get, and they’ll already have made preparations for no deal anyway, moving staff and capital out which we’ll never get back - so it’ll be bad for business.
Jacob Rees-Mogg et al will howl with rage. So too will those who wish for a second referendum. But they will howl without power to change anything. Then, a few years from now, after a couple of elections and changes of government, Brexit will be quietly shelved… or maybe not.
Reckon this is far-fetched? Remember, this government loves to kick the can down the road. This wouldn’t be at all out of character for them. And Brexit is a hard can to do anything other with than to kick."

...

[Ozyhibby]

This just popped up on my Quora feed... I tend to agree with the published answer

Given a choice of a second referendum or a no-deal brexit following her agreement being rejected, which will Mrs May choose? I can't see any other realistic options open to her. (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her)



https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-thumb-133658709-50-upmqhbzecxrcsiqgoxnjmehlbniivlaz.jpeg (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)


Andrew Puckering (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)
Answered Dec 28 (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her/answer/Andrew-Puckering) · Upvoted by Lance Sagar (https://www.quora.com/profile/Lance-Sagar), lives in The United Kingdom (1983-present)

There is one option that hasn’t been much talked about in public yet, and it scares the EU negotiators and business leaders witless - or at least it should if they realise it.
We are getting closer and closer to 29 March when we must crash out of the EU without a deal if no deal is in place - or revoke Article 50. The PM’s deal will be voted down, so when that happens we must revoke Article 50 if we are to avoid crashing out.
There’s not enough time to organise a second referendum or renegotiate before 29 March. While some MPs may want to crash out with no deal, I do not believe the majority of MPs will allow that - so an amendment will be tabled to the meaningful vote preventing a no-deal scenario, and the amendment will be accepted and passed.
So we’ll revoke Article 50 - but not publicly cancel Brexit. Instead it will be official government policy to be committed to an advantageous Brexit at some future date, when the conditions become more suitable. The government’s line will be that it was a terrible shame that Brexit had to be postponed, but they still want Britain to have Brexit and to make a success of it, and they won’t want to jeopardise that by having a second referendum. They will pay continual lip service to Brexit without risking much to deliver it.
So… why wouldn’t the EU rejoice at this? Why wouldn’t they like having the UK still temporarily in the fold?
Because it’s messy and it provides no certainty. It’s a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads which we can use to threaten them with and still be awkward. It’ll be kicking the can down the road with no end in sight. This is precisely why they tried so hard to stop the European Court of Justice from allowing Britain to unilaterally revoke Article 50. Business leaders will at least be content at not having to deal with a no-deal Brexit, but will hold off on any major long-term investment into the UK until they receive clarity about what kind of Brexit we’ll eventually get, and they’ll already have made preparations for no deal anyway, moving staff and capital out which we’ll never get back - so it’ll be bad for business.
Jacob Rees-Mogg et al will howl with rage. So too will those who wish for a second referendum. But they will howl without power to change anything. Then, a few years from now, after a couple of elections and changes of government, Brexit will be quietly shelved… or maybe not.
Reckon this is far-fetched? Remember, this government loves to kick the can down the road. This wouldn’t be at all out of character for them. And Brexit is a hard can to do anything other with than to kick."

...







That’s very close to what I think will happen. And anyone upset will just have to live with the fact because they don’t have the numbers in parliament to deliver what it was that they wanted.


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[RyeSloan]

That’s very close to what I think will happen. And anyone upset will just have to live with the fact because they don’t have the numbers in parliament to deliver what it was that they wanted.


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Personally I see that as the worst of all options....continued and permanent uncertainty.

This farce has went on long enough and needs to be brought to a close one way or another.

[Ozyhibby]

Personally I see that as the worst of all options....continued and permanent uncertainty.

This farce has went on long enough and needs to be brought to a close one way or another.

Once article 50 is revoked the one thing you can be absolutely certain about is that it will not be implemented again without another referendum.
However once it’s revoked, there is no chance of leavers getting the numbers they want in parliament for another vote. It will never happen.
If article 50 gets revoked it is never coming back. That’s as much certainty as you can have these days.


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[Jack Hackett]

Once article 50 is revoked the one thing you can be absolutely certain about is that it will not be implemented again without another referendum.
However once it’s revoked, there is no chance of leavers getting the numbers they want in parliament for another vote. It will never happen.
If article 50 gets revoked it is never coming back. That’s as much certainty as you can have these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tend to agree with this, also. There will a few years of hair-pulling and recrimination but I can live with that

[Slavers]

This just popped up on my Quora feed... I tend to agree with the published answer

Given a choice of a second referendum or a no-deal brexit following her agreement being rejected, which will Mrs May choose? I can't see any other realistic options open to her. (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her)



https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-thumb-133658709-50-upmqhbzecxrcsiqgoxnjmehlbniivlaz.jpeg (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)


Andrew Puckering (https://www.quora.com/profile/Andrew-Puckering)
Answered Dec 28 (https://www.quora.com/Given-a-choice-of-a-second-referendum-or-a-no-deal-brexit-following-her-agreement-being-rejected-which-will-Mrs-May-choose-I-cant-see-any-other-realistic-options-open-to-her/answer/Andrew-Puckering) · Upvoted by Lance Sagar (https://www.quora.com/profile/Lance-Sagar), lives in The United Kingdom (1983-present)

There is one option that hasn’t been much talked about in public yet, and it scares the EU negotiators and business leaders witless - or at least it should if they realise it.
We are getting closer and closer to 29 March when we must crash out of the EU without a deal if no deal is in place - or revoke Article 50. The PM’s deal will be voted down, so when that happens we must revoke Article 50 if we are to avoid crashing out.
There’s not enough time to organise a second referendum or renegotiate before 29 March. While some MPs may want to crash out with no deal, I do not believe the majority of MPs will allow that - so an amendment will be tabled to the meaningful vote preventing a no-deal scenario, and the amendment will be accepted and passed.
So we’ll revoke Article 50 - but not publicly cancel Brexit. Instead it will be official government policy to be committed to an advantageous Brexit at some future date, when the conditions become more suitable. The government’s line will be that it was a terrible shame that Brexit had to be postponed, but they still want Britain to have Brexit and to make a success of it, and they won’t want to jeopardise that by having a second referendum. They will pay continual lip service to Brexit without risking much to deliver it.
So… why wouldn’t the EU rejoice at this? Why wouldn’t they like having the UK still temporarily in the fold?
Because it’s messy and it provides no certainty. It’s a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads which we can use to threaten them with and still be awkward. It’ll be kicking the can down the road with no end in sight. This is precisely why they tried so hard to stop the European Court of Justice from allowing Britain to unilaterally revoke Article 50. Business leaders will at least be content at not having to deal with a no-deal Brexit, but will hold off on any major long-term investment into the UK until they receive clarity about what kind of Brexit we’ll eventually get, and they’ll already have made preparations for no deal anyway, moving staff and capital out which we’ll never get back - so it’ll be bad for business.
Jacob Rees-Mogg et al will howl with rage. So too will those who wish for a second referendum. But they will howl without power to change anything. Then, a few years from now, after a couple of elections and changes of government, Brexit will be quietly shelved… or maybe not.
Reckon this is far-fetched? Remember, this government loves to kick the can down the road. This wouldn’t be at all out of character for them. And Brexit is a hard can to do anything other with than to kick."

...







The yellow vest revolution will sort this establishment Out! The people will not be denied brexit! The European spring has begun and it won't stop till all the elitist globalist politicians are gone along with those brainwashed by the corporate media and corrupt political parties!! The silent majority will win once again it's only a matter of time.

[Ozyhibby]

The yellow vest revolution will sort this establishment Out! The people will not be denied brexit! The European spring has begun and it won't stop till all the elitist globalist politicians are gone along with those brainwashed by the corporate media and corrupt political parties!! The silent majority will win once again it's only a matter of time.

That’s not going to happen here. There is no appetite among any of the factions for taking to the street.


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[Slavers]

That’s not going to happen here. There is no appetite among any of the factions for taking to the street.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yellow vest protests have started in London. If brexit does not go ahead you will see them get bigger and bigger. We value our democracy and the people will demand brexit goes through.

The games up for the globalists!

[Saturday Boy]

Yellow vest protests have started in London. If brexit does not go ahead you will see them get bigger and bigger. We value our democracy and the people will demand brexit goes through.

The games up for the globalists!


Yellow vests over brown shirts isn’t a great look.

[Callum_62]

The yellow vest revolution will sort this establishment Out! The people will not be denied brexit! The European spring has begun and it won't stop till all the elitist globalist politicians are gone along with those brainwashed by the corporate media and corrupt political parties!! The silent majority will win once again it's only a matter of time.

MBGA!


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[Slavers]

Yellow vests over brown shirts isn’t a great look.

Ha ha you are too brainwashed to realise it's the EU establishment and their police boot boys who wear the Brown shirts.

You stand with Tony Blair, the multinational corporations, central bankers and the military industrial complex. The EU elites who want rid of democracy and centralize powers.

I stand for democracy and freedom and the yellow vests.

[Ozyhibby]

Yellow vest protests have started in London. If brexit does not go ahead you will see them get bigger and bigger. We value our democracy and the people will demand brexit goes through.

The games up for the globalists!

I’m sure there will be a few protests but nothing our democracy can’t handle. The people who championed Brexit will have been unable to deliver it, unfortunately for them. Any protest would need to have a leadership people can believe in, who would that be in your yellow shirt revolution?


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[Slavers]

I’m sure there will be a few protests but nothing our democracy can’t handle. The people who championed Brexit will have been unable to deliver it, unfortunately for them. Any protest would need to have a leadership people can believe in, who would that be in your yellow shirt revolution?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure it does need a leader as any leader would be quickly put into line by the deep state.

Yes our democracy will survive but keep in mind that it's the yellow vests who are the ones trying to save it.

I think there are many within the EU and the remainers who would happily hand all our powers over to the EU. These people IMO are the real threat to the UK and to future freedom and democracy.

Maybe it will take the European elections to sort this out seeing as our remain biased parliament can't bare it that the people have spoke. It will depend on how much the European spring effects the outcome of the euro elections.

Plus any grouping that goes against the Establishment it will likely be labelled far right. I'm not sure sensible people will be keen to follow any of these kinds of leaders. Unless your brainless and or racist then you follow Tommy Robinson. Who for what its worth I think it's a double agent for the deep state.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not sure it does need a leader as any leader would be quickly put into line by the deep state.

Yes our democracy will survive but keep in mind that it's the yellow vests who are the ones trying to save it.

I think there are many within the EU and the remainers who would happily hand all our powers over to the EU. These people IMO are the real threat to the UK and to future freedom and democracy.

Maybe it will take the European elections to sort this out seeing as our remain biased parliament can't bare it that the people have spoke. It will depend on how much the European spring effects the outcome of the euro elections.

Plus any grouping that goes against the Establishment it will likely be labelled far right. I'm not sure sensible people will be keen to follow any of these kinds of leaders. Unless your brainless and or racist then you follow Tommy Robinson. Who for what its worth I think it's a double agent for the deep state.

Truly awesome stuff.

'Bear' and 'Spoken' would have improved it grammatically, but I've bookmarked it anyway.

I've been awake now for 30 hours and just finished travelling for 22 of them so I definitely understand what you mean by "a deep state"!

[CapitalGreen]

i'm not sure it does need a leader as any leader would be quickly put into line by the deep state.

Yes our democracy will survive but keep in mind that it's the yellow vests who are the ones trying to save it.

I think there are many within the eu and the remainers who would happily hand all our powers over to the eu. These people imo are the real threat to the uk and to future freedom and democracy.

Maybe it will take the european elections to sort this out seeing as our remain biased parliament can't bare it that the people have spoke. It will depend on how much the european spring effects the outcome of the euro elections.

Plus any grouping that goes against the establishment it will likely be labelled far right. I'm not sure sensible people will be keen to follow any of these kinds of leaders. Unless your brainless and or racist then you follow tommy robinson. Who for what its worth i think it's a double agent for the deep state.

house!

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure it does need a leader as any leader would be quickly put into line by the deep state.

Yes our democracy will survive but keep in mind that it's the yellow vests who are the ones trying to save it.

I think there are many within the EU and the remainers who would happily hand all our powers over to the EU. These people IMO are the real threat to the UK and to future freedom and democracy.

Maybe it will take the European elections to sort this out seeing as our remain biased parliament can't bare it that the people have spoke. It will depend on how much the European spring effects the outcome of the euro elections.

Plus any grouping that goes against the Establishment it will likely be labelled far right. I'm not sure sensible people will be keen to follow any of these kinds of leaders. Unless your brainless and or racist then you follow Tommy Robinson. Who for what its worth I think it's a double agent for the deep state.

I knew we wouldn’t need to worry about yellow vest protests.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack Hackett]

The yellow vest revolution will sort this establishment Out! The people will not be denied brexit! The European spring has begun and it won't stop till all the elitist globalist politicians are gone along with those brainwashed by the corporate media and corrupt political parties!! The silent majority will win once again it's only a matter of time.

'Yellow vest revolution'? :faf::faf::faf:

100 people is not a 'revolution'. I know it looked more, but that's because 95% of the yellow vests on display were worn by police. The loonies... left and right... get fair carried away with their own propaganda and sense of importance

PS... I note that the huge turnout was mirrored with a raging mob of 40 in Manchester... Back in the day, you could have joined the two demos and still have been outnumbered by the YMD :greengrin

[jonty]

straight jackets required, not yellow vests.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yellow vest protests have started in London. If brexit does not go ahead you will see them get bigger and bigger. We value our democracy and the people will demand brexit goes through.

The games up for the globalists!

I saw a video of about 10 old guys with yellow vests blocking a bridge in London and delayed an ambulance with blue lights on from crossing. If that's what you meant by valuing democracy the sooner we become a Republic the better. Don't worry though, we'll send you to your friends in isolationist England.

[Slavers]

I saw a video of about 10 old guys with yellow vests blocking a bridge in London and delayed an ambulance with blue lights on from crossing. If that's what you meant by valuing democracy the sooner we become a Republic the better. Don't worry though, we'll send you to your friends in isolationist England.

Yes your type underneath their surface are all about rounding up the perceived outsiders or anyone who doesn't agree with you should be rounded up and expelled.

How very progressive and inclusive off you.

We reach out to our yellow vest brothers and sisters in France and across Europe! Mon the European spring!

Viva La vest!!!

[weecounty hibby]

Yes your type underneath their surface are all about rounding up the perceived outsiders or anyone who doesn't agree with you should be rounded up and expelled.

How very progressive and inclusive off you.

We reach out to our yellow vest brothers and sisters in France and across Europe! Mon the European spring!

Viva La vest!!!
Surely even you can see the irony of someone who wants Brexit and the isolationism that will bring reaching out to their French brothers and sisters as well as other Europeans.

[Colr]

Hmmmm

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 40% (-1)
LAB: 34% (-5)
LDEM: 10% (+3)
GRN: 4% (-)
UKIP: 4% (+1)

[Bristolhibby]

Hmmmm

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 40% (-1)
LAB: 34% (-5)
LDEM: 10% (+3)
GRN: 4% (-)
UKIP: 4% (+1)

I’m beginning to lose my patience with Labour. The Tory’s are foolking everything up, yet still command a 6 point lead.

Madness.

BTW, I watched I, Daniel Blake last night. How anyone could watch that film and vote Tory, I’ll never know. Harrowing what we are doing to the people of this country.

J

[hibsbollah]

I’m beginning to lose my patience with Labour. The Tory’s are foolking everything up, yet still command a 6 point lead.

Madness.

BTW, I watched I, Daniel Blake last night. How anyone could watch that film and vote Tory, I’ll never know. Harrowing what we are doing to the people of this country.

J

My frustration with Labour's 'fear of gammons' on Brexit is growing, there's no doubt about it. Like you however, I watched I Daniel Blake last night, for the first time. I'm not ashamed to say some tears were shed. A really important film, excellent sense of place rooted in Newcastle, where I used to live, but also universal in its lessons. The polls show that there are still lots of people like me for whom resolving the issues evident in that film is the national priority.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely even you can see the irony of someone who wants Brexit and the isolationism that will bring reaching out to their French brothers and sisters as well as other Europeans.

Just so that we know who the yellow jacket wearing type is


https://twitter.com/bellacaledonia/status/1081892770183286784?s=19

[Bristolhibby]

My frustration with Labour's 'fear of gammons' on Brexit is growing, there's no doubt about it. Like you however, I watched I Daniel Blake last night, for the first time. I'm not ashamed to say some tears were shed. A really important film, excellent sense of place rooted in Newcastle, where I used to live, but also universal in its lessons. The polls show that there are still lots of people like me for whom resolving the issues evident in that film is the national priority.

My firm belief is Brexit will be bad for people who can bear it the least. Your Daniel Blakes or your Katies.

A No Deal Brexit will be even worse. How can things get better if the baseline will get even worse?

A truely harrowing film.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes your type underneath their surface are all about rounding up the perceived outsiders or anyone who doesn't agree with you should be rounded up and expelled.

How very progressive and inclusive off you.

We reach out to our yellow vest brothers and sisters in France and across Europe! Mon the European spring!

Viva La vest!!!

You could have faced the camera for the photo

https://twitter.com/bellacaledonia/status/1081892770183286784?s=19

[jonty]

140+ factual, fully-sourced examples of the impact Brexit is already having on the UK. Jobs going, investment drying up, companies moving assets to the EU, or redomiciling. And all happening as Government burns through £billions chasing a no deal Brexit.

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1081836120617439233?s=21

[Colr]

My frustration with Labour's 'fear of gammons' on Brexit is growing, there's no doubt about it. Like you however, I watched I Daniel Blake last night, for the first time. I'm not ashamed to say some tears were shed. A really important film, excellent sense of place rooted in Newcastle, where I used to live, but also universal in its lessons. The polls show that there are still lots of people like me for whom resolving the issues evident in that film is the national priority.

What are the chances of Labour making ground in Scotland against the SNP given their stance on Brexit and general performance?

[hibsbollah]

What are the chances of Labour making ground in Scotland against the SNP given their stance on Brexit and general performance?



It depends on what element of its slightly schizophrenic personality it chooses to emphasize. Strident opposition to nationalism every time to rears its head, (taking the battle to the Nats)or commitment to genuine social justice and wealth redistribution (taking the battle to the Tories) on the other.

I'd favour option b, both tactically and because it's the right thing to do. The Scottish Labour establishment will need a bit of persuading in that regard; Ian Murray sitting on a massive majority in Edinburgh South won his seat on campaigning on option a, and it's not in his interests to do anything else next time around I wouldn't have thought.

It shouldn't need repeating that Labours problems in Scotland predate the current leadership. 2015s SNP unprecedented landslide was just the first in a long list of surprising election results that should remind us that you can predict nothing in politics anymore. It's not going to be easy, that's for sure.

[Slavers]

You could have faced the camera for the photo

https://twitter.com/bellacaledonia/status/1081892770183286784?s=19

Try and keep the level of debate at a standard which is above you throwing childish insults around like confetti!

[hibsbollah]

Try and keep the level of debate at a standard which is above you throwing childish insults around like confetti!

Liberal snowflake alert?:wink:

[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1082146978308476928?s=09 :greengrin

[Slavers]

Liberal snowflake alert?:wink:

Sticks and stones may break my bones but a snowflake lefty will never hurt me!

[heretoday]

Everything's going to be OK. Dinny believe the doom merchants.

[JeMeSouviens]

Everything's going to be OK. Dinny believe the doom merchants.

I presume you don't have any family members dependent on NHS meds? I wish I didn't.

[Jack]

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1081836120617439233?s=21

I'd gladly have that and more to become a blue passport isolationist!

We really are totally and utterly [naughty word] up!

[Jack Hackett]

I'd gladly have that and more to become a blue passport isolationist!

We really are totally and utterly [naughty word] up!

:agree:

Just imagine the fear and respect the world will show when we show them at borders and hotel receptions

[lapsedhibee]

:agree:

Just imagine the fear and respect the world will show when we show them at borders and hotel receptions

We won't even have to bother with doing that, will we, when we've got our empire back and the map of the globe is mostly red again?

[Slavers]

One fairly major point is that it's not the government who have been negotiating with the EU instead it has been the Home Office who has been dealing with the EU negotiations.

[Jack]

One fairly major point is that it's not the government who have been negotiating with the EU instead it has been the Home Office who has been dealing with the EU negotiations.

???

[hibsbollah]

One fairly major point is that it's not the government who have been negotiating with the EU instead it has been the Home Office who has been dealing with the EU negotiations.

All civil servants carry out the instructions of ministers. It's a team. Government couldn't function without them and certainly couldn't negotiate Brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

One fairly major point is that it's not the government who have been negotiating with the EU instead it has been the Home Office who has been dealing with the EU negotiations.

No it hasn't. Negotiations have involved officials from the Department for Exiting the EU (DexEU) and sometimes the Cabinet Office.

[Hibbyradge]

No it hasn't. Negotiations have involved officials from the Department for Exiting the EU (DexEU) and sometimes the Cabinet Office.

I think Theresa May has been involved in direct negotiation too.

[Slavers]

No it hasn't. Negotiations have involved officials from the Department for Exiting the EU (DexEU) and sometimes the Cabinet Office.

I think if you do a bit digging then you will find that the government have been sidelined throughout the negotiations and instead it's the Home Office who have been conducting the negotiations.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think if you do a bit digging then you will find that the government have been sidelined throughout the negotiations and instead it's the Home Office who have been conducting the negotiations.

David Davis, Dominic Raab and any number of other Brexit Secretaries have had no part in the negotiations? Cloud cuckoo land indeed.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think Theresa May has been involved in direct negotiation too.

Undoubtedly. The Cabinet Office are No 10's pet civil servants.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think if you do a bit digging then you will find that the government have been sidelined throughout the negotiations and instead it's the Home Office who have been conducting the negotiations.

I think I'm infinitely more likely to find that's a load of bollocks, but you never know.

[Slavers]

David Davis, Dominic Raab and any number of other Brexit Secretaries have had no part in the negotiations? Cloud cuckoo land indeed.

Yes you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think these negotiations are through the Government.

The establishment are trying to keep us in the EU, this begins with the Home Office. This has been commented on by pundits, i suggest you remove yourself from your self-conceited bubble and live the real world.

[Moulin Yarns]

Try and keep the level of debate at a standard which is above you throwing childish insults around like confetti!

No childish insult, you want to believe that the hi-viz vests are a good idea in the UK to pursue the agenda of the hard Brexit then all I am saying is look at who you are siding with.


Like this nice chap

https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1082304571580534786?s=19

[Sylar]

Yes you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think these negotiations are through the Government.

The establishment are trying to keep us in the EU, this begins with the Home Office. This has been commented on by pundits, i suggest you remove yourself from your self-conceited bubble and live the real world.

:hilarious

Where do you get this ****? Because that's precisely what it is. ****.

Seriously, what "source" are you using that provides you with these lies/delusions? It's utter humpty.

[Slavers]

:hilarious

Where do you get this ****? Because that's precisely what it is. ****.

Seriously, what "source" are you using that provides you with these lies/delusions? It's utter humpty.

Yeah so delusional that government ministers have been saying the same thing.

This was on LBC radio.

[Smartie]

This may be the only time I agree with HomeTeam but I think he might (!!) be right here.

Did David Davis not resign because of this? Did Dominic Raab not complain about being undermined in a similar manner?

It is certainly a popular viewpoint amongst Brexiteers, whether it is true or not - that we would have seen off those pesky foreigners with a good, old fashioned red, white and blue Brexit deal if only it wasn't for those meddling civil servants.

[JeMeSouviens]

This may be the only time I agree with HomeTeam but I think he might (!!) be right here.

Did David Davis not resign because of this? Did Dominic Raab not complain about being undermined in a similar manner?

It is certainly a popular viewpoint amongst Brexiteers, whether it is true or not - that we would have seen off those pesky foreigners with a good, old fashioned red, white and blue Brexit deal if only it wasn't for those meddling civil servants.

DD & DR resigned because they didn't get their own hard Brexity way and it it is true that May set up her own EU unit in the Cabinet Office (run by the much maligned Olly Robbins) so that she could direct negotiations herself rather than through the Brexit secretary and DexEU officials.

But that is a far cry from the conspiracy theory that the civil service went off and negotiated the deal themselves. It's May's deal according to May's priorities, mostly stopping free movement to/from the EU.

[grunt]

Yeah so delusional that government ministers have been saying the same thing.

And you believe Government ministers? More fool you.

Here's the unfolding tale of one prominent Government minister and his varying positions on Brexit.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/boris-johnson-no-deal-brexit/

And here's another one, a bit more senior. Black is now white.


https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1081979558633517056 (https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1081979558633517056)

[Slavers]

This may be the only time I agree with HomeTeam but I think he might (!!) be right here.

Did David Davis not resign because of this? Did Dominic Raab not complain about being undermined in a similar manner?

It is certainly a popular viewpoint amongst Brexiteers, whether it is true or not - that we would have seen off those pesky foreigners with a good, old fashioned red, white and blue Brexit deal if only it wasn't for those meddling civil servants.

You are very welcome to be part of the HomeTeam truth movement.

It really does baffle me why the above posters are slinging insults around Willy nilly all because they would have to face the fact that after all this brexit chat they have been barking up the wrong tree.

Anyway for the majority despite what lefty media outlets say pesky foreigners don't even come into the thinking when wanting to leave the EU.

I have said before the left are useful idiots of the globalists.

The EU is a globalist tool to take away freedom and liberty, to centralize powers and have complete control. They want rid of nation states.

The left have been conned into standing with the evil ones and they can't see it through their self-righteous tinted glasses.

[Radium]

You are very welcome to be part of the HomeTeam truth movement.

It really does baffle me why the above posters are slinging insults around Willy nilly all because they would have to face the fact that after all this brexit chat they have been barking up the wrong tree.

Anyway for the majority despite what lefty media outlets say pesky foreigners don't even come into the thinking when wanting to leave the EU.

I have said before the left are useful idiots of the globalists.

The EU is a globalist tool to take away freedom and liberty, to centralize powers and have complete control. They want rid of nation states.

The left have been conned into standing with the evil ones and they can't see it through their self-righteous tinted glasses.

Your characterisation of the EU doesn’t resonate with me but perhaps my perspective is simply different.

I live in a country whose borderline is less than a hundred years old and appreciate the lives that were lost leading up to that change.

Europe faced centuries of bloodshed, with the current map still stabilising after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Free movement of people has removed many reasons for wars and has let business operate without a cumbersome level of red tape.

So we are leaving. Shot in the eye to globalism and a step forward for the anarchist revolution. Codswallop.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/84a547d509ec69226a57f034d58ca969.jpg

The trade blocs above will look after their own and we are screwed. If we want a trade deal with any it will take years to agree and we just have to hope that we have industries left that can still trade - if it is an anti-globalist dream though that might suit.

Mighty Britannia will stride forward. Well given that the hard reality is that two years down the line we can’t even accept the consequences of May’s deal/ Hard Brexit what hope does Great Britain & Northern Ireland and the Crown Dependencies have when we start on trade. Gibraltar will be effectively annexed by Spain. The big 5 Families who control the off-shore fishing industry will be gutted when the EU are given free access to our waters (because they are small fry in the whole deal). Frictionless trade goes - we won’t accept free movement of people so it is inevitable. Lorry drivers arriving with 20cm piles of paperwork at queued out ports. I am sure that the Gillet Jaunnes or the French farmers will be reasonable and the regular blockades from the past will not be allowed to happen.

I then look around the world and see lots of sharks but few friends.

Meanwhile at home all those rich folk who put their own (or someone else’s money, nudge-nudge ) behind the Leave campaign in it’s various guises don’t have to worry about the Anti Tax Avoidance Scheme being introduced by the EU this year.

... just a pity that we are doing this with so little pause for thought




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Colr]

It depends on what element of its slightly schizophrenic personality it chooses to emphasize. Strident opposition to nationalism every time to rears its head, (taking the battle to the Nats)or commitment to genuine social justice and wealth redistribution (taking the battle to the Tories) on the other.

I'd favour option b, both tactically and because it's the right thing to do. The Scottish Labour establishment will need a bit of persuading in that regard; Ian Murray sitting on a massive majority in Edinburgh South won his seat on campaigning on option a, and it's not in his interests to do anything else next time around I wouldn't have thought.

It shouldn't need repeating that Labours problems in Scotland predate the current leadership. 2015s SNP unprecedented landslide was just the first in a long list of surprising election results that should remind us that you can predict nothing in politics anymore. It's not going to be easy, that's for sure.


Totally different context but this is interesting on voting intentions in very pro-Brexit London.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/corbyn-risks-votes-disaster-if-he-fails-to-fight-brexit-poll-shows-a4032256.html

London has 73 MPs. 49 are Labour, 21 Conservative and 3 Liberal.

[grunt]

Totally different context but this is interesting on voting intentions in very pro-Brexit London.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/corbyn-risks-votes-disaster-if-he-fails-to-fight-brexit-poll-shows-a4032256.html

London has 73 MPs. 49 are Labour, 21 Conservative and 3 Liberal.
Perhaps I'm just being daft, but that makes no sense whatsoever to me.
They seem to be saying that if Labour doesn't oppose Brexit, London voters will abandon Labour … and vote Tory?
I don't get it.

[marinello59]

Perhaps I'm just being daft, but that makes no sense whatsoever to me.
They seem to be saying that if Labour doesn't oppose Brexit, London voters will abandon Labour … and vote Tory?
I don't get it.

It’s not so hard to understand. Remember how voters punished the Lib-Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories by voting Tory.

[grunt]

It’s not so hard to understand. Remember how voters punished the Lib-Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories by voting Tory.Good point.

[Bristolhibby]

It’s not so hard to understand. Remember how voters punished the Lib-Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories by voting Tory.

Or they just didn’t vote. Handing seats to Tories. God bless first past the post.

J

[Colr]

Perhaps I'm just being daft, but that makes no sense whatsoever to me.
They seem to be saying that if Labour doesn't oppose Brexit, London voters will abandon Labour … and vote Tory?
I don't get it.

If you look at the figures it seems to be the Libs that are gaining quite a bit. Lab are putting Corbynistas into key marginals as well wuich I think will back fire if the Council elections are any guide.

[McD]

Yes you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think these negotiations are through the Government.

The establishment are trying to keep us in the EU, this begins with the Home Office. This has been commented on by pundits, i suggest you remove yourself from your self-conceited bubble and live the real world.



So the Home Office, headed by the Home Secretary (prominent member of government), and directed by the government, which also control the jobs of those working in the Home Office, went behind the government’s back and negotiated with the EU to come up with a deal that goes against the government? Without anyone noticing?

And no one from the EU ever questioned why DD, DR, May, etc, never showed up to these meetings or that their public comments didn’t match what the Home Office negotiators were saying?

Where exactly were the brexit secretary, prime minister etc when they were in meetings with the EU? Didn’t the EU folks ask them why they were contradicting what the Home Office people were saying?

Given the high profile nature of some of the leading brexiteers, such as BoJo or Farage, wouldn’t they be out shouting from the rooftops? Remember, Boris resigned from GOVERNMENT in protest at the brexit deal, surely he’d have no issues telling everyone who was really running the show.



If you're going to tell me I’m wrong, please use logic, as I have, rather than tell me I’m burying my head in the sand or part of a globalisation conspiracy

[JeMeSouviens]

So the Home Office, headed by the Home Secretary (prominent member of government), and directed by the government, which also control the jobs of those working in the Home Office, went behind the government’s back and negotiated with the EU to come up with a deal that goes against the government? Without anyone noticing?

And no one from the EU ever questioned why DD, DR, May, etc, never showed up to these meetings or that their public comments didn’t match what the Home Office negotiators were saying?

Where exactly were the brexit secretary, prime minister etc when they were in meetings with the EU? Didn’t the EU folks ask them why they were contradicting what the Home Office people were saying?

Given the high profile nature of some of the leading brexiteers, such as BoJo or Farage, wouldn’t they be out shouting from the rooftops? Remember, Boris resigned from GOVERNMENT in protest at the brexit deal, surely he’d have no issues telling everyone who was really running the show.



If you're going to tell me I’m wrong, please use logic, as I have, rather than tell me I’m burying my head in the sand or part of a globalisation conspiracy

Logic would be good but even a single reference to a source for this nonsense would be a start.

(An unlikely start given that it just didn’t happen, but still ...)

[McD]

Logic would be good but even a single reference to a source for this nonsense would be a start.

(An unlikely start given that it just didn’t happen, but still ...)


Exactly :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

You are very welcome to be part of the HomeTeam truth movement.

It really does baffle me why the above posters are slinging insults around Willy nilly all because they would have to face the fact that after all this brexit chat they have been barking up the wrong tree.

Anyway for the majority despite what lefty media outlets say pesky foreigners don't even come into the thinking when wanting to leave the EU.

I have said before the left are useful idiots of the globalists.

The EU is a globalist tool to take away freedom and liberty, to centralize powers and have complete control. They want rid of nation states.

The left have been conned into standing with the evil ones and they can't see it through their self-righteous tinted glasses.

This is exactly the sort of malignant rubbish jumped on by the hard of thinking that has gotten us in this Brexit mess and that saw Donald Trump get elected. The term Fake News is much too cuddly and doesn't do this kind of rubbish justice, it's malignant deception.

[Slavers]

This is exactly the sort of malignant rubbish jumped on by the hard of thinking that has gotten us in this Brexit mess and that saw Donald Trump get elected. The term Fake News is much too cuddly and doesn't do this kind of rubbish justice, it's malignant deception.

A wee tip to help your debating skills. You need to specify which parts you think are pish and state your reasons why.

[McSwanky]

A wee tip to help your debating skills. You need to specify which parts you think are pish and state your reasons why.

I think you're going to have to post a link to the LBC audio (or any other sources) that you are taking as gospel before you start offering up debating tips! As far as I can see, you've come out with precisely nothing so far to back up your claims.

[The Green Goblin]

You are very welcome to be part of the HomeTeam truth movement.

It really does baffle me why the above posters are slinging insults around Willy nilly all because they would have to face the fact that after all this brexit chat they have been barking up the wrong tree.

Anyway for the majority despite what lefty media outlets say pesky foreigners don't even come into the thinking when wanting to leave the EU.

I have said before the left are useful idiots of the globalists.

The EU is a globalist tool to take away freedom and liberty, to centralize powers and have complete control. They want rid of nation states.

The left have been conned into standing with the evil ones and they can't see it through their self-righteous tinted glasses.

Dipped into this thread.

Read this post.

Dipping out again.


“the evil ones”. Sweet Jesus... :faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

A wee tip to help your debating skills. You need to specify which parts you think are pish and state your reasons why.

All of it because it's pish.

[PeeJay]

The EU is a globalist tool to take away freedom and liberty, to centralize powers and have complete control. They want rid of nation states.



The EU - during the course of 70 years - has brought us peace and prosperity in Europe on an unprecedented scale, something Europe has never had before. It has given us free movement of goods, services, finances and people - what makes you think it is taking away "liberty" and "freedom"? Whose and where and when and why?

The EU doesn't want to get "rid of nation states" as you imply, although it does need ever greater political, cultural, economic, financial and emotional integration to ensure that the success of the EU can be sustained and expanded on. This is particularly vital now where the rising tide of nationalist populism together with the spread of disinformation by "interested parties" is trying to drag us back to a place we have been so successful in leaving behind us, robbing us of all the fine achievements made to date.

As to "debating skills" tips - you may care to refrain from calling people idiots - that really doesn't help to move a debate owards.

[matty_f]

The EU - during the course of 70 years - has brought us peace and prosperity in Europe on an unprecedented scale, something Europe has never had before. It has given us free movement of goods, services, finances and people - what makes you think it is taking away "liberty" and "freedom"? Whose and where and when and why?

The EU doesn't want to get "rid of nation states" as you imply, although it does need ever greater political, cultural, economic, financial and emotional integration to ensure that the success of the EU can be sustained and expanded on. This is particularly vital now where the rising tide of nationalist populism together with the spread of disinformation by "interested parties" is trying to drag us back to a place we have been so successful in leaving behind us, robbing us of all the fine achievements made to date.

As to "debating skills" tips - you may care to refrain from calling people idiots - that really doesn't help to move a debate owards.



Good post, especially the final point.

[JeMeSouviens]

First skirmish in parliamentary tactics to avoid no deal, an amendment to the finance bill, passed by 303 to 296.

Defeat for gov and hard brexiteers.

[Hibbyradge]

First skirmish in parliamentary tactics to avoid no deal, an amendment to the finance bill, passed by 303 to 296.

Defeat for gov and hard brexiteers.

There's hope for us yet.

Theresa May suffers Commons defeat over no-deal Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/theresa-may-suffers-commons-defeat-over-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[hibsbollah]

There's hope for us yet.

Theresa May suffers Commons defeat over no-deal Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/theresa-may-suffers-commons-defeat-over-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Jeremy Corbyn turns round and applauds Yvette Cooper in the chamber, and gives her a big thumbs up after her amendment on stopping a no deal Brexit is passed on the Government’s Finance Bill by 303 votes to 297.

3 Labour MPS voted against. Graham Stringer (serial climate change denier, coincidentally owns shares in and receives funding from Manchester Airport, says dyslexia doesnt exist, absolute throbber), Ronnie Campbell, Blyth, also a throbber, and Kate Hoey, who everyone seems to like but does what she wants when she wants.

[Hibbyradge]

Jeremy Corbyn turns round and applauds Yvette Cooper in the chamber, and gives her a big thumbs up after her amendment on stopping a no deal Brexit is passed on the Government’s Finance Bill by 303 votes to 297.

3 Labour MPS voted against. Graham Stringer (serial climate change denier, coincidentally owns shares in and receives funding from Manchester Airport, says dyslexia doesnt exist, absolute throbber), Ronnie Campbell, Blyth, also a throbber, and Kate Hoey, who everyone seems to like but does what she wants when she wants.

That's good to read. Long may that unity, and direction, continue.

[Callum_62]

Excellent


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[Colr]

Jeremy Corbyn turns round and applauds Yvette Cooper in the chamber, and gives her a big thumbs up after her amendment on stopping a no deal Brexit is passed on the Government’s Finance Bill by 303 votes to 297.

3 Labour MPS voted against. Graham Stringer (serial climate change denier, coincidentally owns shares in and receives funding from Manchester Airport, says dyslexia doesnt exist, absolute throbber), Ronnie Campbell, Blyth, also a throbber, and Kate Hoey, who everyone seems to like but does what she wants when she wants.

Who likes Kate Hoey?

She’s well known as a total head banger!!

[JeMeSouviens]

Who likes Kate Hoey?

She’s well known as a total head banger!!

The DUP mostly.

[JeMeSouviens]

Today's Brexit shenanigans: fresh from last night's victory, the Rebel Alliance (may the force be with them) has tabled an amendment to the business motion that sets out the meaningful vote timetable. If passed, it would force the govt to come back with a plan B within 3 days if/when they lose the meaningful vote. They currently have 3 weeks and the chat is May intends to use this to the full to run the clock down.

But - govt is confident the motion they're trying to amend is unamendable. BUT - it will be up to the speaker and he's ...

- no stranger to a controversial decision
- mightily pissed off at the way May pulled the vote pre-xmas
- about to retire ...


:cb

[JeMeSouviens]

And Labour says it will table immediate confidence motion if/when meaningful vote fails.

Seems the phoney war is over.

[JeMeSouviens]

Speaker John Bercow selects the new Grieve amendment!

(I knew he wouldn't let me down.) :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

... and almost simultaneously ... the DUP reject May's latest compromise proposal to give Stormont a say over changes to follow EU regs in the event of the backstop being in force ... before it was even published.

Nobody was ever let down waiting for a hardline DUP rejection. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Speaker John Bercow selects the new Grieve amendment!

(I knew he wouldn't let me down.) :wink:

Where are you following this?

[JeMeSouviens]

Where are you following this?

I follow a load of political journos on twitter.

[Hibbyradge]

I follow a load of political journos on twitter.

👍

[Hibbyradge]

Bercow is in a battle royal!