Brexit - what will happen next

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/CommonsLeader/status/1072101585227038720?s=19

Popcorn time

We urnae leaving

Business is delighted

Ive nae joab anymore


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[GlesgaeHibby]

Interesting post on Facebook by Robert Peston. Essentially stating that MPs of all parties won't be keen to give up their democratic right to vote down her deal. If they reject her motion to shelve the vote, then surely they are terminating her time as PM.

[Newry Hibs]

They missed off the fourth item and that's the question on the second referendum:

Regarding UKs presence in the EU - do you want to
A) Remain
B) Not leave

[BroxburnHibee]

She was never winning that vote. She'll never win that vote.

How ******* stupid can she get before she realises her time is up.

Wasted the last 2 weeks in a vain attempt to hold on to power.

We don't have a government.

[GlesgaeHibby]

She was never winning that vote. She'll never win that vote.

How ******* stupid can she get before she realises her time is up.

Wasted the last 2 weeks in a vain attempt to hold on to power.

We don't have a government.

We don't have an opposition either.

[JeMeSouviens]

They missed off the fourth item and that's the question on the second referendum:

Regarding UKs presence in the EU - do you want to
A) Remain
B) Not leave


See, keep posting long enough and we're bound to agree. Sounds perfect. :top marks

[lapsedhibee]

We don't have an opposition either.

Step forward the new Churchill, BoJo, to form a new government of national unity to see us through the European threat.
Sales of cigars soar, people start talking about black dogs and everyone lives happily ever after.

[BroxburnHibee]

We don't have an opposition either.

Maybe not an "official" one but we do have plenty MP's trying to oppose this nonsense across all parties. The ECJ vote is an obvious example.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oor nicola is correct : vote delay an "act of pathetic cowardice" by Govt "collapsing into utter chaos"


:agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

What an absolute farce this whole escapade has been. Her self serving aspirations of keeping her job and Cameron's roll of the dice have brought parliament to a standstill. Banana Republics are laughing at us. Scotland needs to extract itself from this circus asap.

[JeMeSouviens]

The standard of debate has been cranked up by that brilliant bit of Andy Serkis satire that's currently winning the internet. Savage.

https://www.facebook.com/WeWantsIt/videos/338850266702681/

:top marks

[JeMeSouviens]

FM accuses May of "pathetic cowardice" and ...



@NicolaSturgeon


So @jeremycorbyn - if Labour, as official opposition, lodges motion of no confidence in this incompetent government tomorrow, @theSNP will support & we can then work together to give people the chance to stop Brexit in another vote. This shambles can’t go on - so how about it?

[Hibernia&Alba]

What a mess. The vote on May's agreement will have to happen at some point, and, as things stand that vote will be lost: the EU will not give more regarding the Irish backstop. A second referendum is a pipe dream, IMHO, and the DUP will ensure the government doesn't fall in any no confidence motion, so all this does is bring a no deal Brexit next March closer.

[Hibernia&Alba]

What an absolute farce this whole escapade has been. Her self serving aspirations of keeping her job and Cameron's roll of the dice have brought parliament to a standstill. Banana Republics are laughing at us. Scotland needs to extract itself from this circus asap.

One the main reasons I voted against independence was due to EU membership. Post Brexit, I will support independence in any future referendum.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can we leave now...... please? :boo hoo:

[Moulin Yarns]

Can we leave now...... please? :boo hoo:

Bye.

[Callum_62]

The single issue party are trying to keep us in the EU

Surely thats detrimental to there sole purpose of breaking up the UK?

Puts Mundells outrageous claim that the SNP want a no deal to shame

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181210/34d6cceffdc201321c73223bea54568d.jpg


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[Fife-Hibee]

The single issue party are trying to keep us in the EU

Surely thats detrimental to there sole purpose of breaking up the UK?

Puts Mundells outrageous claim that the SNP want a no deal to shame

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181210/34d6cceffdc201321c73223bea54568d.jpg


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Aye, but they'll no work with the SNP. The DUP on the other hand....

[JeMeSouviens]

PM making statement:

"I have listened carefully"

<house guffaws>

"there is broad support for many aspects of the deal"

<house pisses itself>

[JeMeSouviens]

Making the case for deal again. She's going to go to Brussels, come back with diddly and try to plough ahead regardless. :rolleyes:

"does this house want to deliver Brexit?"

"NOOOOOOO" - from the SNP :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Waffling now - "tackling social injustice". You're a ****** Tory, your whole political life has been spent promoting social injustice. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn actually does ok - "no point bringing back the same botched deal".

May carries on doggedly defending the deal she won't even bring to a vote. :rolleyes:

FFS.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hold on - a Bercow intervention ...

"deeply discourteous" - about gov pulling vote

[JeMeSouviens]

Bercow says there should be a vote on pulling the deal but acknowledges the gov don't have to.

v embarrassing for May but they'll probably go ahead anyway.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Bercow says there should be a vote on pulling the deal but acknowledges the gov don't have to.

v embarrassing for May but they'll probably go ahead anyway.

True, but this lot have no shame. She'll bring the same awful deal back to parliament. EU won't budge on backstop.

[grunt]

One the main reasons I voted against independence was due to EU membership. Post Brexit, I will support independence in any future referendum.
You and me both.

[grunt]

Corbyn actually does ok.Well, apart from pointing out that the EU won't re-negotiate and then saying that if he becomes PM he'll go and … re-negotiate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well, apart from pointing out that the EU won't re-negotiate and then saying that if he becomes PM he'll go and … re-negotiate.

Yeah, well, everything's relative. :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

She's displaying her usual masterclass in refusing to answer the questions asked.

I thought Bercow was going to insist a vote be taken there. Sadly no.

[jonty]

The standard of debate has been cranked up by that brilliant bit of Andy Serkis satire that's currently winning the internet. Savage.

:agree: at first I thought someone had cobbled it. Its hilarious and shocking at the same time. How the **** did we end up in this mess.
(the tories, I know)

[BroxburnHibee]

She's staring down the Brexiteers who refuse to back her deal.

No defined date for the vote.

Openly talking about preparing for no deal.

I suspect she'll take the vote into the new year now pushing it close to the 21st Jan deadline.

It will be a take it or leave it vote. High risk strategy as losing the vote would probably trigger a GE again.

[JeMeSouviens]

She's staring down the Brexiteers who refuse to back her deal.

No defined date for the vote.

Openly talking about preparing for no deal.

I suspect she'll take the vote into the new year now pushing it close to the 21st Jan deadline.

It will be a take it or leave it vote. High risk strategy as losing the vote would probably trigger a GE again.

I think the amount of greeting she's started doing about "no brexit at all", "does this house want to deliver brexit?" etc means she knows it's this deal or 2nd ref. Just because she hasn't said it doesn't mean that's not what they're preparing for. It's painfully obvious she means very little of what she says is "100% certain". :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1072179666822291457?s=19

[jonty]

run down the clock, complain theres no time to renegotiate or implement a no-deal and then just cancel the bloody thing. over two years and god only knows how much money wasted.
And then they'll expect to stay in power.
Corbyn should be showing the brexiteers up at every opportunity but he just doesn't commit to anything. complete waste of space. along with most of westminster

[heretoday]

She's pretty good at batting away the questions to be fair.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ian Murray started letter to Jeremy Corbyn to table no confidence motion this week.

EU not happy

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1072129699449589760?s=19

[Fife-Hibee]

She's pretty good at batting away the questions to be fair.

Except she isn't. Anybody can arrange a set of generic soundbites to deflect away from answering any questions. It's the oldest, most straight forward tactic in politics and previous UK Governments have used it.

[lapsedhibee]

She's pretty good at batting away the questions to be fair.

Spat out Corbyn easily enough. He's terrible.

[Hibbyradge]

Four options please, with STV:
Remain
May's deal
No deal
Whatever it is that young people don't want

::faf:

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/eddie-mair/brits-would-vote-remain-many-brexit-voters-died/?fbclid=IwAR04IVSJE3poB0AFKqIOJVBn-6O8Q35pn9d-lukUdqF3micfXuVjjFAoXw0

:stirrer: :devil:

[jonty]

And if Brexit wasn't bad enough, watching the economy tank is depressing too.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/eddie-mair/brits-would-vote-remain-many-brexit-voters-died/?fbclid=IwAR04IVSJE3poB0AFKqIOJVBn-6O8Q35pn9d-lukUdqF3micfXuVjjFAoXw0

:stirrer: [emoji317]In other news, a lot more people have turned old in the last 2 years than have died. [emoji39]

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[Hibernia&Alba]

The EU issue has been an open wound in the Tory Party for thrity years or more, so it's no surprise we have gridlock. That wee clown Cameron thought he was being clever calling the referendum, putting party advantage over principle. Where the hell is he these days? Mr multi-millionaire will be just fine, no matter the outcome.

I fear the only chance of a deal now is a last minute compromise in parliament, accepting the current deal in virtually all respects, in order to avoid the turmoil of a no deal departure. How long May can stick around is anybody's guess.

[Saturday Boy]

In other news, a lot more people have turned old in the last 2 years than have died. [emoji39]

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Careful now.

I’m convinced that all the posts on the “age” word caused the O2 data outage 😄

When I was told that I was part of an ageing demographic, I was pleased, because I hadn’t been part of anything since I was in the Cubs in the 1960s 😉

[Fife-Hibee]

It's the 21st century, we're still politically attached to a parliament where if a 'mace' representing "royal authority" is removed, laws can't be passed. :rolleyes:

Just let that sink in for a moment.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The EU issue has been an open wound in the Tory Party for thrity years or more, so it's no surprise we have gridlock. That wee clown Cameron thought he was being clever calling the referendum, putting party advantage over principle. Where the hell is he these days? Mr multi-millionaire will be just fine, no matter the outcome.

I fear the only chance of a deal now is a last minute compromise in parliament, accepting the current deal in virtually all respects, in order to avoid the turmoil of a no deal departure. How long May can stick around is anybody's guess.

Speak of the devil.....I just caught a glimpse of Cameron on the news. Did he say he regrets calling the referendum? Aye, well done Einstein; even he can see what he's caused.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Speak of the devil.....I just caught a glimpse of Cameron on the news. Did he say he regrets calling the referendum? Aye, well done Einstein; even he can see what he's caused.

Actually no, Cameron said he doesn't regret calling the referendum. I suppose it's too much to expect humility from him at this point. Turns out he can't see what he's done; either that or he won't say so publicly.....

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's the 21st century, we're still politically attached to a parliament where if a 'mace' representing "royal authority" is removed, laws can't be passed. :rolleyes:

Just let that sink in for a moment.

Is there not a similar thing at Holyrood, kept in a glass case in front of the POs desk?

Of all the problems we face just now, a bit of tokenistic tradition hardly seems high on the list.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What a massive **** show.

It is quite interesting watching people trying to solve what seems like a fundamentally unsolvable problem.

[jonty]

What a massive **** show.

It is quite interesting watching people trying to solve what seems like a fundamentally unsolvable problem.

cancel it. now. Then call a GE next year and each party can put in their manifesto what they will do and which Brexit (if any) they will pursue.

That lets the people decide. But they wont, because they're only interested in themselves and the south.

Its ironic that England want to leave the EU but don't want Scotland to have the same thing - take back control.
England need to divide themselves into north and south - the parties only give a toss about the south, and its 'the north' along with the rUK that gets shafted.

morning rant over.

[lapsedhibee]

In other news, a lot more people have turned old in the last 2 years than have died. [emoji39]


Yes but because they're all now cognitively impaired, they won't be able to work out how to change their voting intention from Remain to Leave.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes but because they're all now cognitively impaired, they won't be able to work out how to change their voting intention from Remain to Leave.

They? THEY? What's this "they"?








Oh, look..... an advert for Funeral Plans....

[lapsedhibee]

They? THEY? What's this "they"?


Ok, you.

The boy Bercow was ticking honourable and right honourable peeps off yesterday for saying "you" rather than referring to peeps in the third person, and I was just fitting in with that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok, you.

The boy Bercow was ticking honourable and right honourable peeps off yesterday for saying "you" rather than referring to peeps in the third person, and I was just fitting in with that.

Noted.

See those funeral plans? See if you (I mean, one) defaults on the payments, does that mean (a) one gets dug up again after the funeral? or (b) one's offspring have to foot the bill?

Asking for a soon-to-be-old friend.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

cancel it. now. Then call a GE next year and each party can put in their manifesto what they will do and which Brexit (if any) they will pursue.

That lets the people decide. But they wont, because they're only interested in themselves and the south.

Its ironic that England want to leave the EU but don't want Scotland to have the same thing - take back control.
England need to divide themselves into north and south - the parties only give a toss about the south, and its 'the north' along with the rUK that gets shafted.

morning rant over.

I would say postpone it, have a multi option ref, and then proceed from there.

So in your parallels between indy and and Brexit, and you saying indy was wrong, or Brexit is right? 😁

[GlesgaeHibby]

I would say postpone it, have a multi option ref, and then proceed from there.

So in your parallels between indy and and Brexit, and you saying indy was wrong, or Brexit is right? 😁

That would only muddy the waters further IMO.

Given no-deal really is cliff edge catastrophe stuff it should be a case of Remain or the best deal the UK government can negotiate. There is no majority in parliament for the car crash scenario of no-deal brexit thankfully.

[Rocky]

Hypothetical question - if Theresa May was trying to engineer a situation where we remain in the EU, but wanted to avoid the risks of civil disobedience / rise of the far right that could come with being seen to overrule the 'will of the people', how would she achieve that? Could it be that the apparent shambles that we're in right now is actually an orchestrated piece of theatre that ultimately leads us to remain but in some way appeases the element of the leave support that was motivated by less than honourable intentions? Or at least gets them to point their ire elsewhere?

I sometimes wonder if the mess is all about getting us to the point where Article 50 has to be revoked so the clock stops ticking on the formal exit. This could then be represented as taking time to go back to the negotiating table without a deadline hanging over the proceedings, but claiming to still press on with Brexit, albeit without trying very hard. Then over time people get bored with the whole thing and it just drifts away.

[Since90+2]

Hypothetical question - if Theresa May was trying to engineer a situation where we remain in the EU, but wanted to avoid the risks of civil disobedience / rise of the far right that could come with being seen to overrule the 'will of the people', how would she achieve that? Could it be that the apparent shambles that we're in right now is actually an orchestrated piece of theatre that ultimately leads us to remain but in some way appeases the element of the leave support that was motivated by less than honourable intentions? Or at least gets them to point their ire elsewhere?

I sometimes wonder if the mess is all about getting us to the point where Article 50 has to be revoked so the clock stops ticking on the formal exit. This could then be represented as taking time to go back to the negotiating table without a deadline hanging over the proceedings, but claiming to still press on with Brexit, albeit without trying very hard. Then over time people get bored with the whole thing and it just drifts away.

No chance that's what's happening IMO. The government are incompetent and Theresa May is a terrible Prime Minister. The amount of people that would need to be involved in such a thing just makes it completely implausible.

[JeMeSouviens]

No chance that's what's happening IMO. The government are incompetent and Theresa May is a terrible Prime Minister. The amount of people that would need to be involved in such a thing just makes it completely implausible.

Completely agree but it has to be said if someone had had such a machiavellian scheme, they couldn't have played it better. :greengrin

[Rocky]

No chance that's what's happening IMO. The government are incompetent and Theresa May is a terrible Prime Minister. The amount of people that would need to be involved in such a thing just makes it completely implausible.

I'm not so sure - the likes of Dominic Raab, David Davis and Steve Barclay wouldn't necessarily have to be 'involved' in the conspiracy directly. All she needed to do was find people who were a) brexiters and b) morons to fill the Brexit secretary post and the outcome would take care of itself!

[jonty]

I would say postpone it, have a multi option ref, and then proceed from there.

So in your parallels between indy and and Brexit, and you saying indy was wrong, or Brexit is right? ��

Brexit was never right :greengrin
I'd love to see the UK go back to 'high quality' and 'high standard' of craftmanship, but I don't think we have, or will have, the workforce.
Brexit is all pain, no gain, and leads only downhill, IMHO.

So that's a yes to Indy please - between Westminster and the US trumpet, they are ruining the economy. my pension pot, little though it is, is looking even more pathetic.
If Indy happens, its getting invested in renewables and whisky. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not so sure - the likes of Dominic Raab, David Davis and Steve Barclay wouldn't necessarily have to be 'involved' in the conspiracy directly. All she needed to do was find people who were a) brexiters and b) morons to fill the Brexit secretary post and the outcome would take care of itself!

A Venn diagram of considerable overlap. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Never mind exiting the backstop, May can't manage to get out of her car :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-46525689/brexit-theresa-may-gets-stuck-in-car-ahead-of-angela-merkel-meeting

[cabbageandribs1875]

when will Sky news finally take the cameras to somewhere secure away from the front of parliament, pizzes me off listening to the halfwits in the background with their megaphones yelling a load o utter crap :rolleyes: bad enough listening to the goats inside parliament

[Hibernia&Alba]

Never mind exiting the backstop, May can't manage to get out of her car :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-46525689/brexit-theresa-may-gets-stuck-in-car-ahead-of-angela-merkel-meeting

She's a ******* clown who literally can't put one foot in front of another. What a laughing stock she has made the UK in Europe.

Unless the Irish 'backstop' is removed, the deal won't get through Westminster. The EU, quite rightly, say the 500 page agreement, 18 months in the negotiating, is the deal; yet she goes with a begging bowl at the last minute to get it changed, postponing the parliamentary vote in the process. There hasn't been such incompetence in Europe since Peter Sellers was playing Inspector Clouseau.

You can almost see Merkel thinking to herself 'what are you doing here again, you ******* idiot'.

[JeMeSouviens]

Insight into Tory thinking - suspect this also applies to Scotland (but sadly we do "know our place" :rolleyes:).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46528952

Quite funny though. The Tories have made the same mistakes time after time after time throughout their Brexit shambles:

- believing the EU would throw Ireland under a bus
- believing they could go over Barnier's head and use divide and rule among EU heads of government
- believing the EU is as scared of no deal as they are*


* I'm talking sentient Tories here, not the hard core kamikaze Brexit ultras

[JeMeSouviens]

She's a ******* clown who literally can't put one foot in front of another. What a laughing stock she has made the UK in Europe.

Unless the Irish 'backstop' is removed, the deal won't get through Westminster. The EU, quite rightly, say the 500 page agreement, 18 months in the negotiating, is the deal; yet she goes with a begging bowl at the last minute to get it changed, postponing the parliamentary vote in the process. There hasn't been such incompetence in Europe since Peter Sellers was playing Inspector Clouseau.

You can almost see Merkel thinking to herself 'what are you doing here again, you ******* idiot'.

:agree:

Merkel & Juncker have both categorically ruled out renegotiation today. She is desperately clutching at straws that aren't there.

[Fife-Hibee]

No chance that's what's happening IMO. The government are incompetent and Theresa May is a terrible Prime Minister. The amount of people that would need to be involved in such a thing just makes it completely implausible.

Perhaps not. You never really know what an MP signs up to, unless you become one yourself. Westminster could be gagging clause central for all we know.

[BroxburnHibee]

:agree:

Merkel & Juncker have both categorically ruled out renegotiation today. She is desperately clutching at straws that aren't there.

I think she is desperately trying to show the rebels that it's her deal or no deal. ECJ ruling yesterday proved that wasn't the case and that's why they spent a fortune battling the case.

She keeps making the same mistakes and it's a farce.

I honestly believe that she won't allow a vote on that deal now as she can't possibly win it.

I think we're heading for another General Election as I can't see any way she would allow another referendum.

[stoneyburn hibs]

John McDonnell claims that the SNP want to lose a vote of no confidence, in order to avoid a general election because they know that Labour are breathing down their necks in Scotland.

It's seems that the madness is spreading across the benches at Westminster.

[JeMeSouviens]

The UK’s appeal to the European Commission to open side talks to keep the high-volume “roll on roll off” ferry port at Dover in the event of a no-deal Brexit has been rejected. The commission will insist on applying “full third-country” checks on goods and people entering the continent in the event of a no-deal exit.

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/brexit/europe/uk-ministers-insistence-on-managed-no-deal-brexit-spells-major-miscalculation


Miscalculation, Brexit, surely not? :confused:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think she is desperately trying to show the rebels that it's her deal or no deal. ECJ ruling yesterday proved that wasn't the case and that's why they spent a fortune battling the case.

She keeps making the same mistakes and it's a farce.

I honestly believe that she won't allow a vote on that deal now as she can't possibly win it.

I think we're heading for another General Election as I can't see any way she would allow another referendum.

This could well be the case: the ultimate game of Russian roulette. However, the hardline leavers in the Tory Party are fine with no deal, regardless of the consequences. To them, getting out of all EU jurisdiction is worth a no deal scenario, and plenty of the Eurosceptic faction are saying we should just go to WTO rules. Their bluff can't be called on this, and each passing day without agreement brings the prospect of no deal next March closer.

[James310]

If there is a general election then what on earth would a vote for the main parties mean?

Tories - Deal that is on the table? Lots of Tories want Remain so how do you appease them.
Labour - Remain? Lots of Labour wanted to leave so how do you appease them.
Lib Dems - Remain.
UKIP - Leave with no deal?
SNP - Remain.

Never seen such division and confusion in politics before.

We could have a general election and have another minority government and be in this mess for years to come.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That would only muddy the waters further IMO.

Given no-deal really is cliff edge catastrophe stuff it should be a case of Remain or the best deal the UK government can negotiate. There is no majority in parliament for the car crash scenario of no-deal brexit thankfully.

There is no majority for anything though, i dont think the waters could get any muddier!

I heard a guy on radio describe a multi option ref, like french presidential election with two votes, two most popular options go through to final choice.

I know its a bit complicated, but then we are in a very xomplicated position and it was refs that got us into this mess.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not so sure - the likes of Dominic Raab, David Davis and Steve Barclay wouldn't necessarily have to be 'involved' in the conspiracy directly. All she needed to do was find people who were a) brexiters and b) morons to fill the Brexit secretary post and the outcome would take care of itself!

And rely on the obstinance of the DUP...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Perhaps not. You never really know what an MP signs up to, unless you become one yourself. Westminster could be gagging clause central for all we know.

And yet, it is the one place in the UK where gagging clauses can be legally broken using parliamentary privilege...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think she is desperately trying to show the rebels that it's her deal or no deal. ECJ ruling yesterday proved that wasn't the case and that's why they spent a fortune battling the case.

She keeps making the same mistakes and it's a farce.

I honestly believe that she won't allow a vote on that deal now as she can't possibly win it.

I think we're heading for another General Election as I can't see any way she would allow another referendum.

She is toast with either scenario, so she really should just do whats best for the country and go out on a high note she hasnt previously reached...

[Smartie]

What a massive **** show.

It is quite interesting watching people trying to solve what seems like a fundamentally unsolvable problem.

It's not an unsolvable problem.

It's a problem where none of the solutions are particularly palatable.

Take your pick - undermine democracy, make us all a bit poorer or make us all a lot poorer.

I'll take the undermining of democracy, thank you.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If there is a general election then what on earth would a vote for the main parties mean?

Tories - Deal that is on the table? Lots of Tories want Remain so how do you appease them.
Labour - Remain? Lots of Labour wanted to leave so how do you appease them.
Lib Dems - Remain.
UKIP - Leave with no deal?
SNP - Remain.

Never seen such division and confusion in politics before.

We could have a general election and have another minority government and be in this mess for years to come.

You're right, and the fact that the division cuts right across the two largest parties means a GE would really be into difficult territory and possibly not solve anything.

Surely if we are trying to change something, but there is no consensus and no parliamentary majority for any option, then the status quo should apply be default?

In which case, May should suspend / revoke article 50 then call a GE and put the whole thing back to proper parliamentary democracy.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's not an unsolvable problem.

It's a problem where none of the solutions are particularly palatable.

Take your pick - undermine democracy, make us all a bit poorer or make us all a lot poorer.

I'll take the undermining of democracy, thank you.

But undermining democracy still leaves millions with the initial 'problem'.

Im with you, but solving the problem for us, creates or exrends the problem for others. Its a zero sum game in that respect.

Its why strong leadership is required, to do what will be unpopular with many but is objectively for the good of the country i.e. remain.

But i dont for a minute think that would solve the Europe problem.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/how-to-play-connect-four-with-theresa-may-20181211180384

[weecounty hibby]

:agree:

Merkel & Juncker have both categorically ruled out renegotiation today. She is desperately clutching at straws that aren't there.
Think of the air miles she'll have when she gets made redundant though!

[weecounty hibby]

John McDonnell claims that the SNP want to lose a vote of no confidence, in order to avoid a general election because they know that Labour are breathing down their necks in Scotland.

It's seems that the madness is spreading across the benches at Westminster.
Yeah, in their dreams. Ineffectual Labour leadership on both sides of the border. Sturgeon is the best leader of any party in the UK at the moment. Certainly hands down better than Corbyn or Leonard. Blackford has been excellent in Westminster recently and the rank and file SNP MPs all do a pretty good job. Labour would still be lucky to beat the Tories in Scotland never mind the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

More speculation the 48 Tory letters of no confidence in May are in.

[CropleyWasGod]

More speculation the 48 Tory letters of no confidence in May are in.No chance.

At this time of the year, letters take days to arrive.

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

More speculation the 48 Tory letters of no confidence in May are in.

According to some, they have been in for weeks.

Im really not sure it will help the brexiters though. Moee chance of brexit being delayed, as a new leader cant renegotiate, and the problem of parliamentary arithmetic doesnt go away?

[jonty]

No chance.

At this time of the year, letters take days to arrive.

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It'll be the tax payers paying for the 1st class stamps too.

[Tornadoes70]

Yeah, in their dreams. Ineffectual Labour leadership on both sides of the border. Sturgeon is the best leader of any party in the UK at the moment. Certainly hands down better than Corbyn or Leonard. Blackford has been excellent in Westminster recently and the rank and file SNP MPs all do a pretty good job. Labour would still be lucky to beat the Tories in Scotland never mind the SNP.

Nonsense. The snp are very largely irrelevant bit players as is normal.

[Bristolhibby]

Nonsense. The snp are very largely irrelevant bit players as is normal.

Are they, Aye?

[McSwanky]

Nonsense. The snp are very largely irrelevant bit players as is normal.Of all the weird, unsubstantiated posts you've come out with recently, this may well be the weirdest.

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[Hiber-nation]

Of all the weird, unsubstantiated posts you've come out with recently, this may well be the weirdest.

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He obviously missed Corbyn's "performance" at PMQs last week.

[ronaldo7]

More speculation the 48 Tory letters of no confidence in May are in.

Speculation ends. 48 letters reached.

Popcorn at the ready.

[Bristolhibby]

Vote of no confidence on Wednesday. Breaking news

[Just Alf]

Nonsense. The snp are very largely irrelevant bit players as is normal.Ah.. So you do agree then that independence for Scotland is a good thing, glad. That's now cleared up.

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[Callum_62]

Its Boris time [emoji1751]*[emoji3603][emoji599]


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[marinello59]

Its Boris time [emoji1751]*[emoji3603][emoji599]


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Boris won’t win any leadership contest. The Tory Party is a nest of vipers, there is going to be a political bloodbath if May is dumped tonight. Self indulgent tossers, the lot of them.

[Benny Brazil]

Frightening thought that Boris could be our PM very soon

[Jones28]

This could backfire massively

[Callum_62]

And if May wins - what then?

Her deal still wont get thro the house

Its a frightning thought to think we could end up with a Boris or JRM type of character




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[stoneyburn hibs]

Gove has the perfect Brexit coupon.

[James310]

So this is a vote of confidence by the Tories in May, not a vote of confidence in the Government voted for by all MPs?

I thought Blackford said they had until the end of yesterday for the vote of no confidence, so now that's past what they doing about it?

[Callum_62]

So this is a vote of confidence by the Tories in May, not a vote of confidence in the Government voted for by all MPs?

I thought Blackford said they had until the end of yesterday for the vote of no confidence, so now that's past what they doing about it?

Yes this is the tories reaching the 48 letter threshold


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[Moulin Yarns]

Nonsense. The snp are very largely irrelevant bit players as is normal.

Unlike Labour who were Frightened to table a motion of no confidence in the government. Get your head out of the sand and stop trolling.

[hibsbollah]

Unlike Labour who were Frightened to table a motion of no confidence in the government. Get your head out of the sand and stop trolling.

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

[Since90+2]

May will win the confidence vote.

[Callum_62]

May will win the confidence vote.

I think you may be right

How many weeks or months will this take if she loses though?

Surely as soon as she loses Article 50 must be looked at


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[Moulin Yarns]

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

I get that, but this way the government remain in place, albeit possibly with a new leader. An opposition call would have meant the house as a whole vote on the whether there is confidence in the government, not just the Prime Minister. It would most likely have failed, the last time it a no confidence vote won was Jim Callachan

[makaveli1875]

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

Spot on . Sturgeon could learn a thing or 2 from old Jezza , instead of flying off the handle all the time with her knee jerk reactions .. stop , think and for a minute .
Corbyn has played a blinder

[Callum_62]

Spot on . Sturgeon could learn a thing or 2 from old Jezza , instead of flying off the handle all the time with her knee jerk reactions .. stop , think and for a minute .
Corbyn has played a blinder

But what will it achieve at the end of the day?

May wins....carry on

May loses.....then what is the plan?


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[Since90+2]

I think you may be right

How many weeks or months will this take if she loses though?

Surely as soon as she loses Article 50 must be looked at


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She effectively said if she loses article 50 would need to be extended. I know it's an overused phrase but the UK really is a complete and utter laughing stock at the minute.

The whole Brexit idea is absolute madness however people who voted for it don't seem to realise it yet. Perhaps the electorate gets the politicians it deserves.

[stokesmessiah]

But what will it achieve at the end of the day?

May wins....carry on

May loses.....then what is the plan?


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Correct!

I think Labour have been honking throughout this, and continue to be so.

[JeMeSouviens]

But what will it achieve at the end of the day?

May wins....carry on

May loses.....then what is the plan?


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May wins - the current level of chaos.

May loses - probably a whole new level of chaos. There's no way anybody but a suicide squad no deal Brexit ultra will get elected by the Tory party grass roots at large. Rather than threatening no deal, they may actually try and run the clock out to achieve no deal. This is actually quite scary.

[JeMeSouviens]

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

It depends what your priorities are. If you want to gamble on a GE at any cost, even if that's after a no deal Brexit, then this is a winning strategy. Avoiding Brexit, or at the very least avoiding a hard Tory style Brexit should be Lab's priority, imo.

[Smartie]

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

I'm not sure that during his leadership Jeremy Corbyn has shown enough to suggest that this is any sort of deliberate strategy more than the accidental outcome of months and years of dithering.

Whether you like her policies or not, Sturgeon has consistently shown leadership skills not seen in the Labour Party for decades. She chose a position, got people in her party to stand behind her and fought her corner.

If we'd had any sort of leadership or direction within our opposition over the past decade, the Tories would not have been allowed to lead us to this current shambles.

[jonty]

The opposition front benches decision not to call for a no confidence vote has been absolutely borne out by the events of the last few hours. The 'give the Tories enough rope and they will hang themselves' strategy has been Labours policy, quite consistently, for months now, and it shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

Its no surprise but Corbyn could have at least shown some fight over the past few months. Or even acted like a leader. He's had ample opportunity to show her up and fails at every turn.
And if he's deliberately waited until now then he's as accountable as the tories for dragging the country through this steaming pile of ****

[Pretty Boy]

Who do the Tories go for if they dump May?

Of the arch Brexiteers you have Gove who has recently declared himself 'loyal' to May and thus the deal. Boris doesn't bear thinking about. Rees-Mogg raises a whole host of constitutional questions. It wouldn't shock me to see someone like Raab sneak in the back door.

I reckon strong and stable might just about cling on though.

[hibsbollah]

Its no surprise but Corbyn could have at least shown some fight over the past few months. Or even acted like a leader. He's had ample opportunity to show her up and fails at every turn.
And if he's deliberately waited until now then he's as accountable as the tories for dragging the country through this steaming pile of ****

'Accountable as the Tories'?? Really? I understand lots of people don't like the new Labour party, or can disagree with the tactical direction, or even deny they have one, but you have to examine this sort of hyperbole and decide if it stands up to scrutiny. Or logic. It just doesn't. Brexit is a Tory toley sandwich. Pretending Corbyn is culpable for anything except not doing enough to wrestle the mustard from the sweaty palms of Cameron, Rabb, May, Johnson, Gove and the rest of them is playing into the hands of the Tory apologists. They don't have to eat the Tory toley, after all.

[hibsbollah]

Who do the Tories go for if they dump May?

Of the arch Brexiteers you have Gove who has recently declared himself 'loyal' to May and thus the deal. Boris doesn't bear thinking about. Rees-Mogg raises a whole host of constitutional questions. It wouldn't shock me to see someone like Raab sneak in the back door.

I reckon strong and stable might just about cling on though.

Remember Yes Minister, when they gave the job to Jim Hacker, on the basis that he was so incompetent and without any supporters that it made further internecine civil war less likely?

Thats why it will be a colourless unknown like David Liddington.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure that during his leadership Jeremy Corbyn has shown enough to suggest that this is any sort of deliberate strategy more than the accidental outcome of months and years of dithering.

Whether you like her policies or not, Sturgeon has consistently shown leadership skills not seen in the Labour Party for decades. She chose a position, got people in her party to stand behind her and fought her corner.

If we'd had any sort of leadership or direction within our opposition over the past decade, the Tories would not have been allowed to lead us to this current shambles.

If I was Nicola, I would have called for a NC vote.
If I was Jeremy, I wouldn't have.

Both sensible political decisions based on party self interest. National interest is a myth pedalled by the powerful and swallowed by the hard of thinking.

[Moulin Yarns]

If I was Nicola, I would have called for a NC vote.
If I was Jeremy, I wouldn't have.

Both sensible political decisions based on party self interest. National interest is a myth pedalled by the powerful and swallowed by the hard of thinking.

You seem to forget that Nicola sturgeon doesn't have a seat at the table in Westminster so she couldn't call for the no confidence vote.

Normal parliamentary procedure requires the leader of the opposition to table the motion of no confidence, Nicola Sturgeon gave clear indication that there would be full support from the SNP at Westminster. The opportunity has been lost with the tories 48 letters.

[JeMeSouviens]

Who do the Tories go for if they dump May?

Of the arch Brexiteers you have Gove who has recently declared himself 'loyal' to May and thus the deal. Boris doesn't bear thinking about. Rees-Mogg raises a whole host of constitutional questions. It wouldn't shock me to see someone like Raab sneak in the back door.

I reckon strong and stable might just about cling on though.

Can't see Boris getting through the MPs, lots of them hate him. David Davis would be the "Jim Hacker" candidate I think.

I reckon you're right that May will cling on a bit longer though.

[hibsbollah]

You seem to forget that Nicola sturgeon doesn't have a seat at the table in Westminster so she couldn't call for the no confidence vote.

Normal parliamentary procedure requires the leader of the opposition to table the motion of no confidence, Nicola Sturgeon gave clear indication that there would be full support from the SNP at Westminster. The opportunity has been lost with the tories 48 letters.

When I say Nicola's 'call' I meant in terms of her public announcement, not as a point of westminster procedure, obviously.

[hibsbollah]

Can't see Boris getting through the MPs, lots of them hate him. David Davis would be the "Jim Hacker" candidate I think.

I reckon you're right that May will cling on a bit longer though.

Davis is a council estate 'oik' made good. So the snobs despise him, He's also principled libertarian, so the Machiavelli's and the whips hate him. He's rabid Brexit, so the remainers hate him. He's extremely right wing, so the wets hate him.

[Pretty Boy]

Nick Eardley on twitter suggesting that thus far 110 MPs are likely to back May with 32 declaring intention to oppose.

[Moulin Yarns]

When I say Nicola's 'call' I meant in terms of her public announcement, not as a point of westminster procedure, obviously.

The SNP, Libdems, Greens and Plaid Cymru all "Called" on Jeremy Corbyn, as the leader of the 'official' opposition to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. They were giving him to the end of yesterday before doing it themselves. Events have overtaken that option, so it is an opportunity lost. Well done Jezza.


Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable, Green MP Caroline Lucas, the SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford and Plaid Cymru Westminster Group leader Liz Saville Roberts have written to Mr Corbyn arguing that there is now an "overwhelming" case for a confidence motion following Mrs May's decision to defer the Commons vote on her Brexit deal.
Mr Blackford told a media conference that Mr Corbyn "has to do that by the close of business today" or the other opposition parties would "accept that responsibility and lay down that motion of no confidence."

[stokesmessiah]

The SNP, Libdems, Greens and Plaid Cymru all "Called" on Jeremy Corbyn, as the leader of the 'official' opposition to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. They were giving him to the end of yesterday before doing it themselves. Events have overtaken that option, so it is an opportunity lost. Well done Jezza.

I am pretty sure I read that he cancelled a meeting with them as well, as he thought they were just playing politics....eh right Jezza.

[JeMeSouviens]

Davis is a council estate 'oik' made good. So the snobs despise him, He's also principled libertarian, so the Machiavelli's and the whips hate him. He's rabid Brexit, so the remainers hate him. He's extremely right wing, so the wets hate him.

Yep, but he has the saving grace of being old. So your Jeremy Hunts*, Javids, Raabs etc might support him to fill in the gap between getting some sort of ****show conclusion to Brexit and still leave time for one of them to emerge in time for the next election.



* actually they're all a bunch of Jeremy Hunts.

[JeMeSouviens]

The SNP, Libdems, Greens and Plaid Cymru all "Called" on Jeremy Corbyn, as the leader of the 'official' opposition to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. They were giving him to the end of yesterday before doing it themselves. Events have overtaken that option, so it is an opportunity lost. Well done Jezza.

The SNP etc plus a big chunk of Labour want a no conf now so they can get on with a PV. Jezza is quite comfortable with (most probably supportive of) getting Brexit over the line first.

[Northernhibee]

The SNP, Libdems, Greens and Plaid Cymru all "Called" on Jeremy Corbyn, as the leader of the 'official' opposition to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. They were giving him to the end of yesterday before doing it themselves. Events have overtaken that option, so it is an opportunity lost. Well done Jezza.
It’s a vote that would not have succeeded. If Nicola, Vinny or anyone else thought they could win then any of their MPs could have called for the vote.

But no, they knew it wouldn’t work and we’re too cowardly to call it themselves.

[jonty]

'Accountable as the Tories'?? Really? I understand lots of people don't like the new Labour party, or can disagree with the tactical direction, or even deny they have one, but you have to examine this sort of hyperbole and decide if it stands up to scrutiny. Or logic. It just doesn't. Brexit is a Tory toley sandwich. Pretending Corbyn is culpable for anything except not doing enough to wrestle the mustard from the sweaty palms of Cameron, Rabb, May, Johnson, Gove and the rest of them is playing into the hands of the Tory apologists. They don't have to eat the Tory toley, after all.

Lets face it - Labour are the only party in Westminster who can successfully challenge the tories. So yes, given that they have the MPs and just not leader, to put this nonsense to bed, yes IMO they're as accountable. (although I appear to be one of those 'hard of thinking' you alluded to)
So he may not have started the farce, but he has helped drag it out - deliberately or not. I honestly don't know how he is still the leader of the party, tbh. The farce of the tory party seems to have acted as a distraction.
Theyre supposed to be there for the good of the country - not pandering to their egos playing a stupid game and dragging the country down.
Its no wonder MPs get a bad name.

I despair with the lot of them.

[Northernhibee]

Corbyn emboldened by this at PMQs. Wiping the floor with May.

[jonty]

Corbyn emboldened by this at PMQs. Wiping the floor with May.

Better late than never.
Is she fighting back or just given up the will to live?

[JeMeSouviens]

It’s a vote that would not have succeeded. If Nicola, Vinny or anyone else thought they could win then any of their MPs could have called for the vote.

But no, they knew it wouldn’t work and we’re too cowardly to call it themselves.

Nothing to do with cowardice, the other parties could move the motion but only the official opposition and the government have guaranteed parliamentary time to put a confidence debate in.

You're right that it won't succeed, but Lab policy is only to go for PV after confidence vote fails, hence the urgency to get on with it.

[Sylar]

Better late than never.
Is she fighting back or just given up the will to live?

She's just laughing at him and tearing into Labour.

The usual PMQs fare.

[cabbageandribs1875]

by jings May always rips Corbyn a new one, it's embarrassing for him

[jonty]

not related to Brexit or any of the british political parties
but this shows how stupid the people who run countries can look.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46538122


Republican congresswoman Zoe Lofgren posed the question about why "idiot" highlighted results that included pictures of the president.
"How would that happen? How does search work so that would occur?" she asked.
Mr Pichai replied that Google search results were based on billions of keyword ranked according to more than 200 factors, including relevance and popularity.
"So it's not some little man sitting behind the curtain figuring out what we're going to show the user?" responded Ms Lofgren.



Republican Steve King asking Mr Pichai to explain why his granddaughter's iPhone was acting strangely.
In response, Mr Pichai explained the phone was not made by Google.


It just back up Michelle Obamas claim that those at the top aren't always that smart.

[bingo70]

Something I really struggle to come to terms with when i'm trying to keep up with what is happening in parliament is why it has to be accepted the way these politicians behave.

It's an absolute rabble with people shouting over each other, laughing at one and other, making silly noises and you even see photos of people sleeping.

If my boys primary school class behaved like that i'd be disgusted never mind grown adults being paid a fortune for being there.

I can't get my head around why this has been accepted as normal behaviour and an acceptable way to try and run a country.

[Callum_62]

Something I really struggle to come to terms with when i'm trying to keep up with what is happening in parliament is why it has to be accepted the way these politicians behave.

It's an absolute rabble with people shouting over each other, laughing at one and other, making silly noises and you even see photos of people sleeping.

If my boys primary school class behaved like that i'd be disgusted never mind grown adults being paid a fortune for being there.

I can't get my head around why this has been accepted as normal behaviour and an acceptable way to try and run a country.

Fnar fnar fnar!

Agreed, it’s ridiculous


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[G B Young]

Corbyn emboldened by this at PMQs. Wiping the floor with May.

He didn't really. Just launched into his usual shouty soundbites (for instant broadcast on cult Corbyn social media platforms) before being put back in his place and left sitting there steaming with resentment.

Here's Jeremy failing to get the 'British humour' he's previously accused Jews of not understanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQETfDelvZU

[JeMeSouviens]

May offering a nod and a wink (via her press spokesperson) to Tory waverers that she'll quit before the next election if they let her carry on just now.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm actually starting to think the best hope of getting out of Brexit is through May staying:

- she will be strengthened among Tories in general but ...
- ERG/DUP will be ultra-raging
- deal has **** all chance of getting through HoC so ...
- she has to pivot to ...
- Norway, but she hates freedom of movement (and foreigners generally) or
- Canada, but she realises EU won't wear no backstop and that it would cost tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs, which leaves ...
- trying to get her deal through via ref#2

Ok, it's not my dream of parliament just revoking art 50, but it's a decent chance.

Edit: I missed out no deal above but I'm almost certain May is bluffing on that (unlike some of her kamikaze chums).

[JeMeSouviens]

btw, on no deal. I read a piece quoting "Brussels insiders" recently (but can't find it now) that stated that the EU is relatively sanguine about no deal. They think that it would be awful but an order of magnitude more awful in the UK than anywhere else and that after a few weeks, the UK will come crawling back to the table.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Party over country at this crucial time; all very self-indulgent. This is the worst government and worst prime minister of all time - what a mess. The civil war in the Tory Party over Europe has gone national since Brexit; David Cameron bears the responsibility for that. What a rabble they are.

[JeMeSouviens]

Party over country at this crucial time; all very self-indulgent. This is the worst government and worst prime minister of all time - what a mess. The civil war in the Tory Party over Europe has gone national since Brexit; David Cameron bears the responsibility for that. What a rabble they are.

I agree but yet ...


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-12-05/Voting_intention_3-4_Dec-01.png

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-12-05/Best_Prime_Minister_3-4_Dec-01.png

[Hibernia&Alba]

I agree but yet ...


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-12-05/Voting_intention_3-4_Dec-01.png

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-12-05/Best_Prime_Minister_3-4_Dec-01.png

That poll must have been taken in Berkshire, or possibly Aberdeen :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

I heard Lesley Laird on the radio yesterday and another Labour front bencher today, can't remember his name. They both could not say what Labours stance on Brexit actually was. They also couldn't say what they would campaign for if they got the GE that they crave. Not really inspiring. The sad fact of the matter is that this government has handle the biggest issue since WW2 so badly that the country is in a total state of turmoil yet they still poll higher than Corbyn and Labour. So the official opposition are so ****ing poor that they will likely stay the official opposition

[Hibernia&Alba]

I heard Lesley Laird on the radio yesterday and another Labour front bencher today, can't remember his name. They both could not say what Labours stance on Brexit actually was. They also couldn't say what they would campaign for if they got the GE that they crave. Not really inspiring. The sad fact of the matter is that this government has handle the biggest issue since WW2 so badly that the country is in a total state of turmoil yet they still poll higher than Corbyn and Labour. So the official opposition are so ****ing poor that they will likely stay the official opposition

The issue is that the country (UK wide) is split down the middle, which means consensus is impossible. 48 per cent don't wish to leave the EU at all; of the 52 per cent who wish to leave, there are half a dozen versions of Brexit the various factions are pushing for. Then there's the issue of a possible second referendum to settle the impasse, but that generates further arguments. It's gridlock and there's no easy solution. We have a constitutional crisis which cuts across party lines. God knows what the outcome will be.

[G B Young]

Party over country at this crucial time; all very self-indulgent. This is the worst government and worst prime minister of all time - what a mess. The civil war in the Tory Party over Europe has gone national since Brexit; David Cameron bears the responsibility for that. What a rabble they are.

A time, you might think, for Labour to try and prove they can rise above self interest and show that they offer a better alternative, yet their stance amid this saga is if anything even more self indulgent and party over country.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A time, you might think, for Labour to try and prove they can rise above self interest and show that they offer a better alternative, yet their stance amid this saga is if anything even more self indulgent and party over country.

But the job of the opposition is to oppose. It's the Conservative Party in government; and, with Brexit three months away, they are holding a leadership contest, consumed with internal party matters!

Labour is less split than the Tories on Europe, but their problem is that all but a handful of Labour MPs wish to remain, which goes against the referendum result. Indeed, a majority in parliament is pro-remain, yet they must deliver Brexit. There's just no consensus on the way forward.

[weecounty hibby]

But the job of the opposition is to oppose. It's the Conservative Party in government; and, with Brexit three months away, they are holding a leadership contest, consumed with internal party matters!

Labour is less split than the Tories on Europe, but their problem is that all but a handful of Labour MPs wish to remain, which goes against the referendum result. Indeed, a majority in parliament is pro-remain, yet they must deliver Brexit. There's just no consensus on the way forward.
Part of the problem with Labour tho is that Corbyn is well known to be anti EU, he was incredibly weak during the Brexit campaign and continues to be so. Does he want Brexit, does he oppose it but will go along with it as he believes in democracy, does he believe in hard/soft Brexit, will he have a second referendum, will he try to renegotiate, what would he change? We don't know any of this from him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Part of the problem with Labour tho is that Corbyn is well known to be anti EU, he was incredibly weak during the Brexit campaign and continues to be so. Does he want Brexit, does he oppose it but will go along with it as he believes in democracy, does he believe in hard/soft Brexit, will he have a second referendum, will he try to renegotiate, what would he change? We don't know any of this from him.

It looks like Labour is moving towards the Norway model of EFTA, which means staying in the single market and customs union. However, that requires acceptance of free movement of EU citizens, so would it fly? Every proposed solution also has elements many are opposed to, hence deadlock and we drift towards a no deal exit.

[Bristolhibby]

It looks like Labour is moving towards the Norway model of EFTA, which means staying in the single market and customs union. However, that requires acceptance of free movement of EU citizens, so would it fly? Every proposed solution also has elements many are opposed to, hence deadlock and we drift towards a no deal exit.

Intresting video on the Norway Plus option. The Norwegian PM ain’t so sure.

https://youtu.be/tsyudJFE8DA

[heretoday]

Corbyn should be facing a confidence vote too.

[bingo70]

I presume it's a foregone conclusion that May will win this vote tonight based on the amount of support she's had throughout the day?

[cabbageandribs1875]

I presume it's a foregone conclusion that May will win this vote tonight based on the amount of support she's had throughout the day?



odds of 1/10 suggests she will win easily



although an odds check wasn't really needed to confirm she will win tbf

[marinello59]

I presume it's a foregone conclusion that May will win this vote tonight based on the amount of support she's had throughout the day?

She should win the vote but if a large number of her own MPs vote against her she will be seriously wounded. In normal times that would mean resignation but she will probably hold on for now.

[Jack]

We have of course concentrated on the UK perspective here.

On the other side we have the EU. They made it quite clear at the outset they weren't happy with one of their members leaving, as much in fear of others following suit as anything else. There's no surprise they're ok with the deal they've struck with a hapless UK government, it's crap for the UK.

They've made absolutely clear the crap deal on the table is the only deal. If the UK wanted to get a Norway or Iceland deal it should have thought about that 2 years ago when the clock started ticking. Given the EU wanted to deter others from leaving neither were likely then nor in the foreseeable future.

If there's no deal and 1,000s of lorries are stacked up around Dover with rotting UK goods or missed deadlines the EU won't give a damn. It's not as if they won't have already sought and found other suppliers or suppliers have already moved to the continent.

Or there's revoking Article 50 however that might be achieved in Westminster or with the electorate.

I think anyone suggesting anything else is either deluded or a liar.

[G B Young]

But the job of the opposition is to oppose. It's the Conservative Party in government; and, with Brexit three months away, they are holding a leadership contest, consumed with internal party matters!

Labour is less split than the Tories on Europe, but their problem is that all but a handful of Labour MPs wish to remain, which goes against the referendum result. Indeed, a majority in parliament is pro-remain, yet they must deliver Brexit. There's just no consensus on the way forward.

But not surely opposition for opposition's sake? There needs to be some substance to their opposition and ideally a better proposal on the table and Corbyn provides neither. He even admitted he hadn't read the deal May agreed with the EU, so entrenched was he in his view that he would oppose whatever was agreed. What does that sort of mindset bring to the table? Nothing. All he offers are pre-scripted soundbites (his speech writer appears to think that if he says 'botched Brexit' often enough it will enter common parlance) with zero indication that Labour have anything better to offer. As others have said, his own woolly position on Brexit (with the suspicion remaining that he voted leave) has helped his party advance their claims as a credible opposition not a jot.

[G B Young]

Corbyn should be facing a confidence vote too.

He already has. And lost it by a landslide. Problem for Labour is that Milliband's foohardy decision to open up leadership contest votes to the party membership meant that he stayed in his job. But yes, that shouldn't stop him facing another one given his change with the wind performance over Brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

She should win the vote but if a large number of her own MPs vote against her she will be seriously wounded. In normal times that would mean resignation but she will probably hold on for now.

Lolz, she's been more wounded than the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail! Losing a majority in an election she didn't need to fight would have seen her gone in any past era and that's before the Brexit cluster**** got into full gear.

[Saturday Boy]

Just watching the BBC News Channel. Michael Heseltine has just said that we need Labour to get off their **** over Brexit.

I was never a fan, but the older Parliamentarians like him, Ken Clark and Hilary Benn talk so much basic sense.

Stop, take stock and think before making a life changing decision.

Apologies for being a bit old fashioned

[JeMeSouviens]

Just watching the BBC News Channel. Michael Heseltine has just said that we need Labour to get off their **** over Brexit.

I was never a fan, but the older Parliamentarians like him, Ken Clark and Hilary Benn talk so much basic sense.

Stop, take stock and think before making a life changing decision.

Apologies for being a bit old fashioned

And with such diminished mental faculties too. :wink:

[makaveli1875]

Lolz, she's been more wounded than the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail! Losing a majority in an election she didn't need to fight would have seen her gone in any past era and that's before the Brexit cluster**** got into full gear.

https://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/ardern0/black%20kn_zpswh5trjdg.jpg (https://s832.photobucket.com/user/ardern0/media/black%20kn_zpswh5trjdg.jpg.html)

[Saturday Boy]

And with such diminished mental faculties too. :wink:

Absolutely.

I’ve just remembered that I should have called them “elder statesmen”

And I’m only 59 and a bit 😄

[JeMeSouviens]

May confirms to the 1922 committee meeting she won't stay on to the next election but doesn't specify a date for departure. (It's Tony Blair all over again.)

[Hibbyradge]

And with such diminished mental faculties too. :wink:

:thumbsup:

[CropleyWasGod]

Just watching the BBC News Channel. Michael Heseltine has just said that we need Labour to get off their **** over Brexit.

I was never a fan, but the older Parliamentarians like him, Ken Clark and Hilary Benn talk so much basic sense.

Stop, take stock and think before making a life changing decision.

Apologies for being a bit old fashionedDays are indeed changed when we're looking to the likes of Major and Dubya as the voices of reason.

Or maybe my cognitive abilities are shot.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Saturday Boy]

Days are indeed changed when we're looking to the likes of Major and Dubya as the voices of reason.

Or maybe my cognitive abilities are shot.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


I’m now beginning to understand an old colleague who used to say “That movie is so old, Gabby Hayes got the bird”

And he was well cool, as a former Hibs player.

I can’t wait for my bus pass. Five weeks 😄

[Just Alf]

And in other news, the official Irish opposition party do the opposite of the Tories and have decided to put their country 1st and committed to supporting the existing minority government for another year to avoid Dublin falling into chaos like London has to allow Brexit get out the way.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

And in other news, the official Irish opposition party do the opposite of the Tories and have decided to put their country 1st and committed to supporting the existing minority government for another year to avoid Dublin falling into chaos like London has to allow Brexit get out the way.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Historically, the goverment Fine Gael and the opposition Fianna Fail are both the product of splits in Sinn Fein.

Fine Gael are the side that accepted the treaty in 1921 that eventually led to the Republic, partition and all. Fianna Fail are the bulk of the opposing side (Sinn Fein split again in 1926 over whether to abstain from the Dail or not, the Sinn Fein of Adams etc is, a few further splits away, the side that refused to take the oath of allegiance to the British King and continued to abstain).

So, it's amazing how long the effects of taking an unpleasant deal or not can last. :wink:

[Saturday Boy]

Historically, the goverment Fine Gael and the opposition Fianna Fail are both the product of splits in Sinn Fein.

Fine Gael are the side that accepted the treaty in 1921 that eventually led to the Republic, partition and all. Fianna Fail are the bulk of the opposing side (Sinn Fein split again in 1926 over whether to abstain from the Dail or not, the Sinn Fein of Adams etc is, a few further splits away, the side that refused to take the oath of allegiance to the British King and continued to abstain).

So, it's amazing how long the effects of taking an unpleasant deal or not can last. :wink:

And a quick look at Wikipedia

[Fife-Hibee]

Is this the most dumbed down public in history?

[RyeSloan]

Is this the most dumbed down public in history?

I thought you said the youth of today with their multi channel multi media sharpened cognitive abilities was resulting in the opposite effect?

Or did you mean the old are dumber than the young but the young are are still dumber than the old?

[Radium]

Just watching the BBC News Channel. Michael Heseltine has just said that we need Labour to get off their **** over Brexit.

I was never a fan, but the older Parliamentarians like him, Ken Clark and Hilary Benn talk so much basic sense.

Stop, take stock and think before making a life changing decision.

Apologies for being a bit old fashioned

Thought that Heseltine’s views, particularly in relation to our future prospects (medium sized economy) are unfortunately too true.

https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1072930873752907782?s=21




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

And a quick look at Wikipedia

Hey! That was all from memory, I’m only 48. :wink:

[Jones28]

Who do the Tories go for if they dump May?

Of the arch Brexiteers you have Gove who has recently declared himself 'loyal' to May and thus the deal. Boris doesn't bear thinking about. Rees-Mogg raises a whole host of constitutional questions. It wouldn't shock me to see someone like Raab sneak in the back door.

I reckon strong and stable might just about cling on though.

Javid has a real shout if she loses IMO

[Saturday Boy]

Hey! That was all from memory, I’m only 48. :wink:

Consider yourself lucky I can still spell wonkypodio, or whatever. 😉

Being serious, I’m saddened by the surprise around “the Irish Question” if we can call it that.

Nobody noticed the problem with a hard border and the Good Friday Agreement .

Except the Irish government, and the EU.

They raised concerns before the Brexit referendum.

As I type, all our problems could be about to be solved; or not 😄

[JeMeSouviens]

May wins - 200 to 117

[McD]

She’s won

[JeMeSouviens]

Consider yourself lucky I can still spell wonkypodio, or whatever. 😉

Being serious, I’m saddened by the surprise around “the Irish Question” if we can call it that.

Nobody noticed the problem with a hard border and the Good Friday Agreement .

Except the Irish government, and the EU.

They raised concerns before the Brexit referendum.

As I type, all our problems could be about to be solved; or not 😄

To be fair, pretty sure John Major brought up Irish implications quite a bit. Nobody much listening though.

[Benny Brazil]

May wins - 200 to 117

Closer than I think many thought it would be - not sure where that leaves her now

[GlesgaeHibby]

A win for PM but pretty grim given majority of backbenchers want her out.

[Saturday Boy]

To be fair, pretty sure John Major brought up Irish implications quite a bit. Nobody much listening though.

True. It’s back to us older chaps and that cognitive thingmy.

Only the young firebrands have the answer these days.

Mind you, I’m having trouble with Boris and JRM as firebrands 😄

[Pretty Boy]

In normal times that result would see a PM gone within the week. It’s not normal times though.

[JeMeSouviens]

True. It’s back to us older chaps and that cognitive thingmy.

Only the young firebrands have the answer these days.

Mind you, I’m having trouble with Boris and JRM as firebrands 😄

More like fireguards, chocolate ones to be precise.

[CropleyWasGod]

Closer than I think many thought it would be - not sure where that leaves her nowTaking revenge on the old duffers who voted against her?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

A win for PM but pretty grim given majority of backbenchers want her out.

Secret ballot so some of the antis are probably the cabinet. :greengrin

[stoneyburn hibs]

Pretty pointless exercise in terms of where the Tories are right now.

[JeMeSouviens]

Closer than I think many thought it would be - not sure where that leaves her now

Yep, but not altogether sure she could have *less* authority!

[Saturday Boy]

More like fireguards, chocolate ones to be precise.

😄 if it wasn’t so scary it would be funny

No wonder there’s so little satirical comedy these days. You can’t outdo this reality. Sadly

[Jones28]

So...the torie rebels lose which should be good, but the tories also win which can't be good, meanwhile the country still waits in a limbo which now has been extended for 12 months until the next ****show, except that inbetween this ****show is brexit.

[Hibs Class]

A landslide victory compared to the Brexit referendum result

[Hibrandenburg]

So now parliament will vote on her deal, with that having next to no chance of passing through the house the choice will be no deal or remain. We're now finally where we should have been in 2016.

[Hibernia&Alba]

200-117 is hardly overwheming, and that's even with assurances she'll be gone before the next general election. Though she is a poor leader, I do have some sympathy for May, as she is trying to lead a party which is ungovernable on the issue of Europe. The disagreements are so longstanding and so deep, nobody could get the Tories to unite around any policy. She inherited an impossible task from Cameron, and every day of her premiership must be pretty miserable.

[Colr]

Closer than I think many thought it would be - not sure where that leaves her now

What do you mean? The Brexit Bunch keep telling us that just 52% is a clear and decisive majority.

[heretoday]

😄 if it wasn’t so scary it would be funny

No wonder there’s so little satirical comedy these days. You can’t outdo this reality. Sadly

Only Spitting Image could do this justice. A good piece of viciousness is required. Bring it back.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I just can't abide the likes of sleekit Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson. Lord Snooty Mogg was on the news straight after the no-confidence vote, saying WTO rules and no deal is fine. Well, it will be for an hereditary multi-millionaire like him. However, millions of others would have their lives turned upside down by a no deal Brexit: the Bank of England says the economy would shrink by up to ten per cent in five years. He and his fellow Eurosceptic extremists just don't give a ****; the old Etonians will land on their feet, as they always do.

[RyeSloan]

Jezza turns the screws:

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said the vote had "changed nothing".
"Theresa May has lost her majority in Parliament, her government is in chaos and she's unable to deliver a Brexit deal that works for the country."

Or not as the case may be.

Glad to see he’s clarified again just what he wants ‘A Brexit deal that works for the country’. Well at least that’s cleared that up.

The Brexit show, after a mid season slump, has proven not to disappoint recently. And with so many plot twists and turns still to come and the real excitement of that cliff edge ending thrown in for good measure it could be good watching for a while yet [emoji23]

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What do you mean? The Brexit Bunch keep telling us that just 52% is a clear and decisive majority.

A very good point sir.

Also, they all voted for May, as did the public (just). So surely by their logic, they should back her, respect the result, even if it makes them worse off and turns out it was the wrong decision. That is how it works isnt it?

[ballengeich]

A very good point sir.

Also, they all voted for May, as did the public (just). So surely by their logic, they should back her, respect the result, even if it makes them worse off and turns out it was the wrong decision. That is how it works isnt it?

She can be challenged again in a year, but the 2016 referendum result stands for ever, even if a re-vote might reverse the decision. That's consistency.

[mvteng]

�� if it wasn’t so scary it would be funny

No wonder there’s so little satirical comedy these days. You can’t outdo this reality. Sadly

Andy Serkis has brought a smile to my face


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NpExkViy6M

[Bristolhibby]

Andy Serkis has brought a smile to my face


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NpExkViy6M

That’s so good. The man is a genius. Gollom is one of cinemas most complex characters, and none of us saw his face. Should have got an Oscar for his performance. I feel it was just because his makeup was digital that he didn’t get it.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Remember the Scottish Gov's continuity Brexit bill, passed at Holyrood but disputed by UK gov?

Ruling in from the Supreme Court this morning (via tweet from BBC journo Philip Sim):


Basically, the Supreme Court has ruled that Holyrood had the right to legislate on Brexit, and that its continuity bill was largely fine when it was passed (one section apart). *BUT*...quite a few bits of it now can't stand, because extra protections were then added to the UK Act

So, effectively the UK gov acted after the fact to take competence away from Holyrood - no power grab though. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Remember the Scottish Gov's continuity Brexit bill, passed at Holyrood but disputed by UK gov?

Ruling in from the Supreme Court this morning (via tweet from BBC journo Philip Sim):



So, effectively the UK gov acted after the fact to take competence away from Holyrood - no power grab though. :rolleyes:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2018-0080-judgment.pdf

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46522969

[Moulin Yarns]

The stumbling block, or backstop as it is known.



German foreign minister Heiko Maas says that while the EU will listen to UK concerns, the backstop is "not up for debate".
Speaking to the BBC, he says: "The solution for a functioning backstop for Northern Ireland as defined in the exit agreement is not up for debate.
"On this basis, we are of course prepared to listen to British considerations as to which additional clarifications it would like - but without fundamentally altering the substance of what has been agreed within the EU and approved by cabinet in London."
He says there is a "widespread and certainly understandable desire to reverse Brexit", but adds: "If you look at the current polls in Great Britain, you realise that, since the referendum, not much has changed despite the extraordinarily chaotic debate that has been led there.
"We have to acknowledge that."




It will be very difficult for the EU to give any more concessions on Theresa May's Brexit deal, a Dutch MP says.
Anne Mulder, who is Europe spokesman for the centre-right VVD party, tells BBC World Service's Newsday programme: "The main problem is there’s no majority in the House of Commons for whatever deal. So if the EU made concessions nobody knows if this would help."
He says there is also unlikely to be any movement on the issue of the backstop.
"There’s a deal, it’s [been] negotiated for one and a half years," he says.
"The Irish border is very sensitive in the European Union. Everybody supports Ireland, so I don’t think there will be any re-negotiation around the withdrawal agreement.”

[heretoday]

I just can't abide the likes of sleekit Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson. Lord Snooty Mogg was on the news straight after the no-confidence vote, saying WTO rules and no deal is fine. Well, it will be for an hereditary multi-millionaire like him. However, millions of others would have their lives turned upside down by a no deal Brexit: the Bank of England says the economy would shrink by up to ten per cent in five years. He and his fellow Eurosceptic extremists just don't give a ****; the old Etonians will land on their feet, as they always do.

I reckon Mogg is a Russian mole. He wants to bring the country to its knees.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nick Timothy in the Telegraph pronounces the deal and no-deal as dead, says we're heading for Norway or ref#2.

You can feel the tears dripping through every word. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

It just continues



Former Justice Minister Phillip Lee criticises Theresa May for "reaching out" to Leavers but not those who support her.
Speaking on BBC Radio Berkshire this morning, he says: "She's still reaching out to Brexiteers and they're the guys who are trying to bring her down.
"Those of us who are standing loyal are not being reached out to. By reaching out to them she broadens the chances of us having no deal."
Mr Lee says there are two choices for Parliament - a second referendum or no deal.
"So the prime minister either embraces this reality or it gets foisted upon her," he adds.

[McSwanky]

Nick Timothy in the Telegraph pronounces the deal and no-deal as dead, says we're heading for Norway or ref#2.

You can feel the tears dripping through every word. :greengrin

...and Norway want nothing to do with us. So that leaves one option then.... :greengrin

[HiBremian]

It just continues
May is lying through her teeth when she brazenly talks about "national interest". Any concern for the "national interest" would have meant reaching out to opposition parties from the beginning. The fact that she's only concerned with "reaching out" to her own party is proof enough that party still comes first.

[Moulin Yarns]

what is she playing at? get back here and hold the 'meaningful vote' and stop pissing about wasting money flying around Europe. You will not get any more concessions.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1062237217240899585/iVA8Cv35_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry) Anna Soubry MP ✔ @Anna_Soubry
(https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry)
(https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1073196092890734592)

Many of those who supported @theresa_may (https://twitter.com/theresa_may) #PM (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PM?src=hash) last night will feel v let down that #MeaningfulVote (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MeaningfulVote?src=hash) on #WithdrawalAgreement (https://twitter.com/hashtag/WithdrawalAgreement?src=hash) will not return next week. #unacceptable (https://twitter.com/hashtag/unacceptable?src=hash) #NothingsChanged (https://twitter.com/hashtag/NothingsChanged?src=hash)




https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/723072389534371840/3AhowpH3_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/bbclaurak) Laura Kuenssberg ✔ @bbclaurak
(https://twitter.com/bbclaurak)
(https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073200866516238336)

PM also says, 'don't expect immediate breakthrough' on the backstop - feels very very unlikley now govt has any hope of bringing a revised agreement back to Parliament before Christmas

[SHODAN]

She's forcing a vote to be held as close as possible to the deadline to blackmail MPs into a "my deal or no deal" scenario. Gambling the country's future over her personal interests, like Cameron before her. I'm not surprised at all.

[Hibernia&Alba]

She's forcing a vote to be held as close as possible to the deadline to blackmail MPs into a "my deal or no deal" scenario. Gambling the country's future over her personal interests, like Cameron before her. I'm not surprised at all.

It won't work with the Brextremists in her own party, nor the DUP, who are happy to leave with no deal. Perhaps it would frighten enough members of the opposition to support her deal, however. Then again, perhaps not. What a mess.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073246932280197120?s=19

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073246932280197120?s=19
So, no vote on her deal before Christmas. That might all change in the next couple of hours of course. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

So, no vote on her deal before Christmas. That might all change in the next couple of hours of course. :greengrin

So true. Put your phone down for a few minutes and it all changed.

[lapsedhibee]

She can be challenged again in a year, but the 2016 referendum result stands for ever, even if a re-vote might reverse the decision. That's consistency.
Have always thought that having a new Player of the Year award every year is an affront to democracy.

[hibsbollah]

Have always thought that having a new Player of the Year award every year is an affront to democracy.

So you're saying Brexit is the equivalent of us voting for Stephen Whittaker in 2016?

[Ryan91]

No surprises as the EU tells May to do one with regards to renegotiation of the deal.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Boris Johnson 11/2 Fav for next leader of the tories




now that's a scary thought, a lot can happen in a year though...unless the Dancing Queen abdicates

[Hibernia&Alba]

Boris Johnson 11/2 Fav for next leader of the tories




now that's a scary thought, a lot can happen in a year though...unless the Dancing Queen abdicates

Bozo or perhaps Rees-Mogg - the voices of the people; champions of the man on the street :greengrin

[Just Alf]

MPs across the parties should try to "forge a consensus" over Brexit, the work and pensions secretary has said. - Amber Rudd.

I'm flummoxed, is it ONLY NOW that they're thinking this? There were Leavers in all parties, if the tories had involved them all from the start then the situation now would be much clearer, even if your 'flavour' of Brexit wasn't the exact thing you were getting you'd at least have been part of the journey and know how it had been arrived at.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

MPs across the parties should try to "forge a consensus" over Brexit, the work and pensions secretary has said. - Amber Rudd.

I'm flummoxed, is it ONLY NOW that they're thinking this? There were Leavers in all parties, if the tories had involved them all from the start then the situation now would be much clearer, even if your 'flavour' of Brexit wasn't the exact thing you were getting you'd at least have been part of the journey and know how it had been arrived at.

Sent from my SM-G935F using TapatalkThey've done their fair share of forging thus far, no?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Mr Grieves]

Spot on . Sturgeon could learn a thing or 2 from old Jezza , instead of flying off the handle all the time with her knee jerk reactions .. stop , think and for a minute .
Corbyn has played a blinder

https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/1074300651826569224?s=19

Blinder...

[Hibbyradge]

I posted this on the thread about the Labour Party, but it's just as relevant here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-lib-dems-jeremy-corbyn-tory-deal-poll-yougov-a8685786.html

[GlesgaeHibby]

https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/1074300651826569224?s=19

Blinder...

Aye, but the polls have got it wrong, Corbyn is going to win etc. blah blah.

Anybody that is serious about ridding this country of Tory governments knows that the only way to do that is to remove Corbyn as 'leader' of the Labour party.

[Jack Hackett]

I note with interest that Liam Fox admits the Leavers would lose another referendum

"If there was another referendum, people like me would immediately demand a best of three". Confident then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-46585614/brexit-there-won-t-be-another-referendum-fox

[hibsbollah]

Aye, but the polls have got it wrong, Corbyn is going to win etc. blah blah.

Anybody that is serious about ridding this country of Tory governments knows that the only way to do that is to remove Corbyn as 'leader' of the Labour party.

It's 'The only way' chat again. There is no alternative. It's this absence of grey that disables proper debate and analysis.

I think you've also missed the story contained in the link. It says young people will desert Labour if the party backs Mays deal. I agree with that 100%, which is why I doubt he will back the deal. Why would he?

[RyeSloan]

It's 'The only way' chat again. There is no alternative. It's this absence of grey that disables proper debate and analysis.

I think you've also missed the story contained in the link. It says young people will desert Labour if the party backs Mays deal. I agree with that 100%, which is why I doubt he will back the deal. Why would he?

Cause Corbyn wants out of the EU more than May ever has?

[hibsbollah]

Cause Corbyn wants out of the EU more than May ever has?

As an individual he's neutral about it, likes the employees rights element, dislikes the state aid/anti democratic voting element. He campaigned hard for Remain which seems to be airbrushed out of history . But obviously any Partys position isn't down to one individual anyway. it's a collective cabinet decision. It's infantile to make it about one person.

[Hibbyradge]

Here's one opinion;

“They absolutely believe that if Brexit brings chaos the voters will turn to the radical left”

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/why-are-labour-party-leaders-so-quiet-on-europe---maybe-it-is-the-lure-of-disaster?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fw ww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcomme ntisfree%2F2018%2Fdec%2F16%2Fwhy-are-labour-party-leaders-so-quiet-on-europe---maybe-it-is-the-lure-of-disaster

[hibsbollah]

Here's one opinion;

“They absolutely believe that if Brexit brings chaos the voters will turn to the radical left”

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/why-are-labour-party-leaders-so-quiet-on-europe---maybe-it-is-the-lure-of-disaster?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fw ww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcomme ntisfree%2F2018%2Fdec%2F16%2Fwhy-are-labour-party-leaders-so-quiet-on-europe---maybe-it-is-the-lure-of-disaster

My brother in law bought me Nick Cohen's book What's Left? a few years ago. I think it was an attempt to wind me up:greengrin. Cohen just really really hates Left wing politics. And Corbyn is basically Sauron. *Edit, actually reading the article, which is making the claim that the Labour party actually wants economic and political collapse and poverty because that's how socialism thrives is just pure crazy, it's Trump level over the top nonsense. * I suppose he's honest about it but his commentary on Labour is kind of like me going on kickback suggesting what is good for the hearts team.

[steakbake]

Looks like May is running down the clock so it's between her deal and no deal. Even the suggestion of a referendum would be between May's deal or no deal.

Her deal is unlikely to pass. So we are looking at a no deal Brexit. Only the most fanatical Brexiteer would have hoped for that outcome.

[Callum_62]

Looks like May is running down the clock so it's between her deal and no deal. Even the suggestion of a referendum would be between May's deal or no deal.

Her deal is unlikely to pass. So we are looking at a no deal Brexit. Only the most fanatical Brexiteer would have hoped for that outcome.

There’s absolutely no consensus for a no deal, none whatsoever


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

Parliament won’t allow a no deal. There will be cross party feelers being put out as we speak.

J

[Slavers]

One thing was strikes me about the chat on here in regards to another vote is the assumption that the remain vote will be greater on a 2nd referendum.

Leave will win again by a greater margin than the first because within the remain voters there are a huge amount of decent people who are democrats first leavers 2nd.

They respect the first vote and would vote to uphold democracy rather than vote leave again.

The good people of the UK will win over the globalists and their brainwashed remain lackeys.

[Callum_62]

The good people of the UK will win over the globalists and their brainwashed remain lackeys.

....and the UK will prosper under this new found freedom...?

[danhibees1875]

One thing was strikes me about the chat on here in regards to another vote is the assumption that the remain vote will be greater on a 2nd referendum.

Leave will win again by a greater margin than the first because within the remain voters there are a huge amount of decent people who are democrats first leavers 2nd.

They respect the first vote and would vote to uphold democracy rather than vote leave again.

The good people of the UK will win over the globalists and their brainwashed remain lackeys.

I assume you mean remainers and remain in your middle sentances?

I understand what you're saying, but I can't see it being applicable to a great number of people. Certainly not more than soft leavers who have watched the last 2.5 years unfold and would gladly just scrap the idea and get on with things as they are.

[ballengeich]

They respect the first vote and would vote to uphold democracy rather than vote leave again.



The suggestion that there's something anti-democratic about changing your mind once you know more facts is one of the most vacuous statements in the entire debate (along with Brexit means Brexit).

When you agree to buy an important financial product you get a cooling-off period during which you can cancel if you don't like the details once you've had time to examine them. Why should something so much more important not be subject to the same principle?

Another referendum might produce the same result, it might not. As things stand there's a possiblity that the people of the UK will be taken out of the EU against their current wishes. That would be the real affront to democracy.

[McSwanky]

The suggestion that there's something anti-democratic about changing your mind once you know more facts is one of the most vacuous statements in the entire debate (along with Brexit means Brexit).

When you agree to buy an important financial product you get a cooling-off period during which you can cancel if you don't like the details once you've had time to examine them. Why should something so much more important not be subject to the same principle?

Another referendum might produce the same result, it might not. As things stand there's a possiblity that the people of the UK will be taken out of the EU against their current wishes. That would be the real affront to democracy.

Nicely put.

This is the frustrating thing about the whole process. It should have been structured this way from the start. A 2-stage referendum.

1st stage: Do you support the principal of leaving the EU, and do you authorise the currently sitting Government to commence negotiations to leave the EU? YES/NO

Then

2nd stage: Now that the negotiations are complete, do you support leaving the EU? This could even have multiple options: Leave no. 1 (AKA TM's deal), Leave no. 2 (AKA no deal), Stay

If only the ****ers in charge at the time had had the sense to realise that nobody (including the politicians who vehemently supported/opposed it) could possibly know what Brexit would eventually look like at the time of that first referendum, we wouldn't actually be in this ****storm now.

I despair in the whole Westminster establishment, I really do.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Corbyn proposes and then bottles out of his halfway house confidence motion.

About time Labour had one in Corbyn (again) and got shot this time.

[hibsbollah]

So the vote is now Jan 14th. How is this one month delay in the 'national interest'? I predict there will be another month of squabbling before a formal request for an extension of Article 50. Which May says isn't on the table but she seems to have no problem with shamelessly lying about her intentions so who knows. Parliament is being treated with total contempt.

[Bristolhibby]

Nicely put.

This is the frustrating thing about the whole process. It should have been structured this way from the start. A 2-stage referendum.

1st stage: Do you support the principal of leaving the EU, and do you authorise the currently sitting Government to commence negotiations to leave the EU? YES/NO

Then

2nd stage: Now that the negotiations are complete, do you support leaving the EU? This could even have multiple options: Leave no. 1 (AKA TM's deal), Leave no. 2 (AKA no deal), Stay

If only the ****ers in charge at the time had had the sense to realise that nobody (including the politicians who vehemently supported/opposed it) could possibly know what Brexit would eventually look like at the time of that first referendum, we wouldn't actually be in this ****storm now.

I despair in the whole Westminster establishment, I really do.

Thing is mate, that’s exactly what still can be done. We’ve all swallowed the lie that the people have spoken and that’s that.

Unlike the Scottish Independence Reffrendum which was legally binding, the EU referendum was an advisory vote. If politicians weren’t so disconnected and **** scared of the electorate, they all should have sat down the next day and said, well that’s phase one (set the direction), now let’s get the best deal possible before putting it back to the people again for ratification.

But no, the stories spent two years doing nothing while embarking on one of the hardest Brexits possible.

J

[IGRIGI]

I don't see what she is waiting for, she can't believe that there is any chance of this deal going through.

The MPs looking for a No Deal are never going to change their minds over a change of wording to the backstop which is about the maximum Europe is going to give her at this point.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1074724630500233218?s=19

Corbyn has eventually tabled a motion of no confidence, in the prime minister not the government.

[Moulin Yarns]

And, the other parties except for the DUP have put in the ammendment to make it a no confidence in the government.

Take that Labour.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1074772779843629057?s=19

[marinello59]

And, the other parties except for the DUP have put in the ammendment to make it a no confidence in the government.

Take that Labour.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1074772779843629057?s=19

A no conficence vote in the Government will fail if the DUP vote with the Goverment as they have said they will. So what’s the point, it would only strengthen her position.

[Glory Lurker]

A no conficence vote in the Government will fail if the DUP vote with the Goverment as they have said they will. So what’s the point, it would only strengthen her position.

Will the DUP split ranks if no confidence is called after the govt loses the meaningful vote? If the DUP is likely to split ranks if the govt loses the meaningful vote, will the meaningful vote ever happen?

On that basis, is it all over already?

[Glory Lurker]

Ah, it appears that Corbyn is not going to table the no confidence vote in the government after all, even if May refuses time for his PM confidence vote. On another thread I gave Corbyn cautious credit for getting in to the rammy at last. Stupid me.

[RyeSloan]

Thing is mate, that’s exactly what still can be done. We’ve all swallowed the lie that the people have spoken and that’s that.

Unlike the Scottish Independence Reffrendum which was legally binding, the EU referendum was an advisory vote. If politicians weren’t so disconnected and **** scared of the electorate, they all should have sat down the next day and said, well that’s phase one (set the direction), now let’s get the best deal possible before putting it back to the people again for ratification.

But no, the stories spent two years doing nothing while embarking on one of the hardest Brexits possible.

J

Sorry but that sounds to me like confirmation bias.

Phase 1 then ratification from the people...yeah right like that’s ever been a process that’s been followed before.

I get the fact that those that wish to remain can put forward plausible arguments for a second vote but there is little or no precedent for that to happen.

What I can say though is for gawds sake can we not just decide to do SOMETHING....this pathetic back and fore is getting rather wearing.