Brexit - what will happen next

[RyeSloan]

Sorry, but this is rubbish. The UK is the former member wanting special access to facilities of the club from the outside. Of course that’s going to be on terms set by the rest of the members.

Yup I thought his statement was rubbish as well [emoji106][emoji2532][emoji6]

I have no problems with the concept of being outside the group and therefore terms will be different...only a fool would think or pretend otherwise.

But that’s a world away from said group actively looking to ensure our interests are ‘Repeatedly and permanently hammered’.

It’s pretty clear the hyperbole from all sides will continue unabated for some time yet...

[McD]

Yup I thought his statement was rubbish as well [emoji106][emoji2532][emoji6]

I have no problems with the concept of being outside the group and therefore terms will be different...only a fool would think or pretend otherwise.

But that’s a world away from said group actively looking to ensure our interests are ‘Repeatedly and permanently hammered’.

It’s pretty clear the hyperbole from all sides will continue unabated for some time yet...



:agree: The most accurate comment that could be made about this debacle

[Bangkok Hibby]

I'm Scottish and have lived in Scotland all my life.

I believe that England should be independent of the rest of the U.K. and happily pursue it's own path without having to worry about issues such as the Irish border and what Scots think and want.

I tend not to have a problem with English people of any political persuasion, whilst I disagree with their isolationist right wing element I respect their right to run their country as they wish.

I have more of "a problem" with the Scottish majority who continue to want to be dictated to and have their futures chosen for them by this very different group of people.

Is this so unusual?

Nope, not unusual at all.

[Lendo]

It’s interesting language that he uses:

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", Mr Gyimah said in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning.

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

Which may make some wonder why you want to be a part of such a group in the first place....

We were involved in the writing of these rules. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Callum_62]

It’s interesting language that he uses:

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", Mr Gyimah said in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning.

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

Which may make some wonder why you want to be a part of such a group in the first place....

Arnt the EU simply protecting the integrity of there own market? Its simply following the rules they have made

Why folk think they would do any differently is beyond me

I wish the UK stuck together as much as the EU have done to be honest

[Fife-Hibee]

So basically if we leave we get the **** kicked out of us for having the temerity to leave.

If you say "this club is *****, I don't want to be in it anymore" and you get flung out. Would you still expect to be able to access the bar?

The EU has done nothing wrong here. They're a membership club and the UK doesn't wish to be a member anymore.

[norhfc]

Of course it will.

Everything will remain the same :greengrin

Typical brigadoon snp mentality or at least the one it wishes to portray.

Nothing would ever be the same again within the four nations of the United Kingdom for we would become a foreign nation of our island parts.

Please refrain from playing the pied piper and trying to fool folk. Tell them the abject truth of separatism and some might respect you for it.

With Brexit looming, nothing is ever going to be the same in the UK, whatever the situation is when the dust settles it isnt going to be as you where. If there is a New Peoples vote or indeed an Indy2 vote there will not be a status quo option. So for me that ridiculous Brigadoon/snp statement is nul and void, as for separatism...see brexit.

[James310]

If there is another vote and we don't end up having Brexit at all does that make the case for IndyRef2 weaker? What would be the material change if no longer Brexit?

In a perverse way is it not better for nationalists if it all goes wrong?

[JeMeSouviens]

If there is another vote and we don't end up having Brexit at all does that make the case for IndyRef2 weaker? What would be the material change if no longer Brexit?

In a perverse way is it not better for nationalists if it all goes wrong?

It does weaken the short term case (and imo, the need for) a 2nd indyref. I've said on here before I think Brexit makes independence much harder but much more necessary. Longer winded post here:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?334328-Current-Brexit-Views&p=5572203&viewfull=1#post5572203

[Smartie]

I'd settled back and accepted the 2014 result (and tbh, the way the oil price went, breathed a bit of a sigh of relief and thought in many ways we'd dodged a bullet).

Brexit though is a game-changer, and reinforces the belief that I had always had that Scotland should be independent of the UK but part of the EU.

[James310]

I'd settled back and accepted the 2014 result (and tbh, the way the oil price went, breathed a bit of a sigh of relief and thought in many ways we'd dodged a bullet).

Brexit though is a game-changer, and reinforces the belief that I had always had that Scotland should be independent of the UK but part of the EU.

What if Brexit never happens, which is a growing possibility?

[Smartie]

What if Brexit never happens, which is a growing possibility?

Then I'd re-consider my position once more.

I'm not a rabid flag-waving nationalist, far from it. Whenever I am faced with a choice I make a decision based on what I see in front of me - it just so happens that most of the time it leads me towards independence.

Brexit is a game-changer, a material change and a deal-breaker for me.

Without it, the case for independence is significantly weaker. I'd be astonished if anyone were to argue with that, even Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon.

[JeMeSouviens]

What if Brexit never happens, which is a growing possibility?

The shenanigans that have surrounded Brexit have definitely reinforced the case for independence even if Brexit doesn't happen.

Examples:

Differentiated deal for NI but not (and at the expense of) Scotland.
Immigration red line to suit SE England when Scotland's demographics cry out for more not less.
EU treatment of independent Ireland vs UK treatment of dependent Scotland.
Putting up with Britain's deluded self importance and post-imperial hangover.

Even if there is no Brexit (and I hope it's cancelled) - ffs please get us the **** out of this messed up state.

[lord bunberry]

What if Brexit never happens, which is a growing possibility?
I still think brexit will happen. I doubt there will be a second vote either.

[Smartie]

Without it, the case for independence is significantly weaker. I'd be astonished if anyone were to argue with that, even Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon.


The shenanigans that have surrounded Brexit have definitely reinforced the case for independence even if Brexit doesn't happen.



Ah well, maybe I'm wrong there then.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah well, maybe I'm wrong there then.

The way the Scottish government has been sidelined, ignored and blatantly lied to the last 2 years is nothing new, it's just been a lot less subtle than the last 300 odd years. If people's eyes haven't been opened now then they never will be. The Scottish government are nothing more than a stool pigeon when Labour or the Tories get there way and a thorn in the side when they don't.

[ronaldo7]

If there is another vote and we don't end up having Brexit at all does that make the case for IndyRef2 weaker? What would be the material change if no longer Brexit?

In a perverse way is it not better for nationalists if it all goes wrong?

It would definitely make the case for Indyref 2 more difficult in some eyes.

I've mostly seen the SNP leadership have the most pragmatic approach to Brexit, and in having the best interests of all the UK at heart. They've been the ones looking at the UK GOV and the Fishy opposition, and trying to drag them to secure a better deal than we've been offered. imo.

On the other hand, I've seen the Scottish Government, side lined and ostracized. What ever happened to "Lead the Uk, don't leave it".

The precious Union that Theresa speaks of, is nothing more than an empty shell, in which the Scottish Parliament, which was meant to be permanent, can be removed at any time from it's big brother at Westminster.

The way in which the Tories have reached in to pinch our devolved powers in Fishing and Agriculture speaks volumes of a material change for me. I think they said they might return them in a few years time, when they've done what the want with them.

Brexit has just hardened the need for Scotland to become an Independent state, and the sooner we're gone, the better.

[ronaldo7]

https://t.co/osk18Kg8GY

They're in deep doo doo now. They've not got a ***** clue.

[weecounty hibby]

https://t.co/osk18Kg8GY

They're in deep doo doo now. They've not got a ***** clue.
Piss up and brewery spring to mind. Alternatively deceitful, lying, covering up are also words that spring to mind

[James310]

Tweet from Andrew Adonis, ex Labour minister and anti Brexit campaigner.

Having moved slowly for 29 months, the collapse of Brexit is about to speed up dramatically. Brexit deal dead in 8 days, possibly sooner, & I expect an in-principle commitment to a referendum by early New Year, possibly sooner. Possible that Mrs May will even propose this herself

[BroxburnHibee]

Tweet from Andrew Adonis, ex Labour minister and anti Brexit campaigner.

Having moved slowly for 29 months, the collapse of Brexit is about to speed up dramatically. Brexit deal dead in 8 days, possibly sooner, & I expect an in-principle commitment to a referendum by early New Year, possibly sooner. Possible that Mrs May will even propose this herself

I fully expect her to lose that 1st vote but it's how much it's rejected by which will fuel her response.

If it's closer than expected then there will be negotiations and further votes down the line.

She will do anything to hold on to power.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Professor Richard Wolff (an American Marxist economist!) briefly discusses the causes and consequences of Brexit.


https://youtu.be/jR7rg-KGxV4

[GlesgaeHibby]

I fully expect her to lose that 1st vote but it's how much it's rejected by which will fuel her response.

If it's closer than expected then there will be negotiations and further votes down the line.

She will do anything to hold on to power.

She will be lucky to muster much more than 100 in support. Plenty remainers and hard leavers in her party hate it, as do the opposition. It's all going to unravel very quickly over the next week.

[JeMeSouviens]

Initial opinion from the ECJ says UK can unilaterally revoke Art 50 without seeking agreement from the EU27 first.

Do it!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Initial opinion from the ECJ says UK can unilaterally revoke Art 50 without seeking agreement from the EU27 first.

Do it!

Pesky Scottish lawmakers.

[Moulin Yarns]

Initial opinion from the ECJ says UK can unilaterally revoke Art 50 without seeking agreement from the EU27 first.

Do it!

But, but it's the will of the people and all that.

Theresa May says Brexit will happen and Jeremy Corbyn says there is no way to stop Brexit. Only now we know that there is.

The will of the people, aye right, WE ARE THE PEOPLE and we say stop the Brexit bus, we want to get off.

[Tornadoes70]

But, but it's the will of the people and all that.

Theresa May says Brexit will happen and Jeremy Corbyn says there is no way to stop Brexit. Only now we know that there is.

The will of the people, aye right, WE ARE THE PEOPLE and we say stop the Brexit bus, we want to get off.

Remainers overexcited at a non binding opinion from an advisor of the ECJ. Dearie me.

Brexit is happening. This type of hyperbole from remainers simply hardens opinion that a no deal brexit is ever more likely.

[Hibbyradge]

She will do anything to hold on to power.

To be fair, she's exactly like every other politician in that respect.

[JeMeSouviens]

Pesky Scottish lawmakers.

Heartening once again to see Lab, SNP and Green working together on this.

[CropleyWasGod]

Heartening once again to see Lab, SNP and Green working together on this.

:agree:

The Scottish parliament was set up to be Government by consensus, and not confrontation, as Westminster is.

[Bristolhibby]

Remainers overexcited at a non binding opinion from an advisor of the ECJ. Dearie me.

Brexit is happening. This type of hyperbole from remainers simply hardens opinion that a no deal brexit is ever more likely.

Quitters excited about a narrowly won non binding advisory vote in 2016.

Lots of water has flowed under the bridge since then.

Put it to the people in a three way alternative vote and see what happens. Remain must be on the ballot.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

Without it, the case for independence is significantly weaker. I'd be astonished if anyone were to argue with that, even Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon.

Or equally as strong as it was before brexit.

[Fife-Hibee]

If there is another referendum on the EU, Labour won't be replacing the Tories at the next general election, UKIP will. If that doesn't fast track Scotland towards independence, then nothing ever will.

[GlesgaeHibby]

If there is another referendum on the EU, Labour won't be replacing the Tories at the next general election, UKIP will. If that doesn't fast track Scotland towards independence, then nothing ever will.

UKIP are an utter shambles, no chance.

[Fife-Hibee]

UKIP are an utter shambles, no chance.

UK politics is an utter shambles as are the tories and Labour. The outrage if the brexit result is overturned would undoubtedly see an unprecedented shift towards UKIP.

[CropleyWasGod]

UK politics is an utter shambles as are the tories and Labour. The outrage if the brexit result is overturned would undoubtedly see an unprecedented shift towards UKIP.

...or a shift towards those parties who opposed Brexit, to make sure this nonsense doesn't happen again.

[Bristolhibby]

UK politics is an utter shambles as are the tories and Labour. The outrage if the brexit result is overturned would undoubtedly see an unprecedented shift towards UKIP.

You never know, they might get an MP.

J

[Mantis Toboggan]

UK politics is an utter shambles as are the tories and Labour. The outrage if the brexit result is overturned would undoubtedly see an unprecedented shift towards UKIP.

UKIP are currently dealing with multiple MEPs defecting and have appointed Tommy Robinson as an adviser. And have never had an MP.

[JeMeSouviens]

UKIP are currently dealing with multiple MEPs defecting and have appointed Tommy Robinson as an adviser. And have never had an MP.

Not true - they've had 2, Douglas Carswell and (the brilliantly named) Mark Reckless. Both defected from the Tories, resigned their seats and won the subsequent by-elections.

Although I agree, what's left of them is falling apart. They might rise again as a vehicle for Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon to promote neo-facism. At which point we may be glad the UK parliament still has FPTP.

[JeMeSouviens]

Key thing coming up today - Former Tory attorney general Dominic Grieve (currently my 2nd favourite Westminster politician behind Keir Starmer, and he's a <gulp> Tory!) has moved an amendment to the business of the house which makes any EU withdrawal bill related motion (the meaningful vote or meaningful vote 2nd try) amendable.

If this is passed, parliament will be able to direct the government as to how to proceed, ie. avoiding no deal, a 2nd ref, negotiate us a Norway+ all become possible.

Amendment seconded by a bunch of rebel Tories including the usual suspects (Soubry, Wollaston etc) but also normally loyal types like Oliver Letwin, Nick Boles. This has a serious chance of success and could be the moment that finally kills off May's deal.

[Fife-Hibee]

...or a shift towards those parties who opposed Brexit, to make sure this nonsense doesn't happen again.

Which would be pretty much every party with the exception of UKIP. So while all the other parties recieve split support, the brexiteers would unite behind UKIP.

[Betty Boop]

The Goverment defeated by 4 votes.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Goverment defeated by 4 votes.

Govt amendment defeated - now voting on the actual opposition "contempt" motion, but likely to go the same way. Embarrassing, but not as important as the Grieve amendment coming up ...

[JeMeSouviens]

Government in contempt by 311 to 293 - :na na:

[GlesgaeHibby]

Government in contempt by 311 to 293 - :na na:

Popcorn at the ready :thumbsup:

[James310]

So other than having to publish the full advice it received what it does it mean? Are we expecting it to uncover aspects we were not told about or that the government was 'hiding' something.

Will it make any difference?

[Fife-Hibee]

So other than having to publish the full advice it received what it does it mean? Are we expecting it to uncover aspects we were not told about or that the government was 'hiding' something.

Will it make any difference?

It will expose the spin they've been putting on things more than anything else.

[JeMeSouviens]

So other than having to publish the full advice it received what it does it mean? Are we expecting it to uncover aspects we were not told about or that the government was 'hiding' something.

Will it make any difference?

It will provide embarrassing headlines probably but that's about it.

Voting on Grieve amendment now ...

[ronaldo7]

It will provide embarrassing headlines probably but that's about it.

Voting on Grieve amendment now ...

Grieve will win his amendment.

Majority of 22. The government have taken a hammering today.

😂😂

[JeMeSouviens]

Grieve will win his amendment.

He did 321 to 299. :aok:

Theresa May having a bad day, even by her standards. :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

321 to 299 is a big margin. This doesn't entirely stop the chance of no deal by default but it makes it much, much less likely. So it's a big kick in the balls to the government and the ERG.

I think we're heading for Norway or 2nd ref now.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

321 to 299 is a big margin. This doesn't entirely stop the chance of no deal by default but it makes it much, much less likely. So it's a big kick in the balls to the government and the ERG.

I think we're heading for Norway or 2nd ref now.

Im increasingly starting to think we will get a 2nd vote - no idea what that will mean, but it seems the only logical choice when you strip out all the heat and emotion - the cpuntry, and parliament are deadlocked.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Ian Blackford delivering a very impressive speech in the Brexit debate in Parliament. Always thought Angus Robertson's shoes would take some filling, but Blackford has stepped up to the plate superbly.

[lord bunberry]

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of a second vote. It smacks a bit of keep asking the question until we get the answer we want. I’m totally against brexit and I think remain would win a second referendum, but I believe the consequences would be quite severe if brexit was reversed. I believe it would lead to a significant rise of the far right in England that could well turn violent.
Any future referendums would also lead to calls for a second vote by the losers. The Norway model seems to me to be the best option now, but that won’t satisfy the leavers.

[heidtheba]

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of a second vote. It smacks a bit of keep asking the question until we get the answer we want. I’m totally against brexit and I think remain would win a second referendum, but I believe the consequences would be quite severe if brexit was reversed. I believe it would lead to a significant rise of the far right in England that could well turn violent.
Any future referendums would also lead to calls for a second vote by the losers. The Norway model seems to me to be the best option now, but that won’t satisfy the leavers.

I'm here too. Throw in the, IMHO, very patronising response to the UKIP 'win' in 2015 and the writing has been on the wall that a lot of people are unhappy with the EU. I can imagine they felt ignored and put down by the main parties after that. To do so again, both times after registering their feelings the 'correct' way through a vote, which might now be overturned, is something which really troubles me.

[Bristolhibby]

I'm here too. Throw in the, IMHO, very patronising response to the UKIP 'win' in 2015 and the writing has been on the wall that a lot of people are unhappy with the EU. I can imagine they felt ignored and put down by the main parties after that. To do so again, both times after registering their feelings the 'correct' way through a vote, which might now be overturned, is something which really troubles me.

I think the gripe is they are ignored. It’s not the EU per day, but that’s how it was spun. It’s the perseved “invasion” and erosion of “the good old days” of Rule Britannia and Britain being a Superpower.

Leaving the EU won’t make Birmingham or Bradford more white, or bring about a return to the past.

And if the far right are pissed off, good! We are doing something right. We’ve all got to be up for that fight.

Votes get overturned all the time, that’s the essence of democracy.

J

[Hibbyradge]

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of a second vote. It smacks a bit of keep asking the question until we get the answer we want. I’m totally against brexit and I think remain would win a second referendum, but I believe the consequences would be quite severe if brexit was reversed. I believe it would lead to a significant rise of the far right in England that could well turn violent.
Any future referendums would also lead to calls for a second vote by the losers. The Norway model seems to me to be the best option now, but that won’t satisfy the leavers.

The consequences of leaving the EU, even for a Norway type deal, would be extremely severe. Much worse than the effect of a second referendum returning a remain decision.

Secondly, I certainly don't want this country to be held to ransom because of the threat of some possible far right violence, real or imagined.

[lord bunberry]

I'm here too. Throw in the, IMHO, very patronising response to the UKIP 'win' in 2015 and the writing has been on the wall that a lot of people are unhappy with the EU. I can imagine they felt ignored and put down by the main parties after that. To do so again, both times after registering their feelings the 'correct' way through a vote, which might now be overturned, is something which really troubles me.
I also think a second vote would also be quite tight which wouldn’t really make the issue go away.

[heidtheba]

I think the gripe is they are ignored. It’s not the EU per day, but that’s how it was spun. It’s the perseved “invasion” and erosion of “the good old days” of Rule Britannia and Britain being a Superpower.

Leaving the EU won’t make Birmingham or Bradford more white, or bring about a return to the past.

And if the far right are pissed off, good! We are doing something right. We’ve all got to be up for that fight.

Votes get overturned all the time, that’s the essence of democracy.

J

Ok, I wanted to stay in the EU, but the option I really wanted was 'Stay in the EU but don't spend 8.6bn net a year for the privilege'. That's got nothing to do with the more far right. I know some started there (and heavens know where they will go - although I agree pissing them off isn't something to worry about too much), what about those who were more central and still didn't want the EU. I'd suggest it doesn't help us to see them that way.

[lord bunberry]

The consequences of leaving the EU, even for a Norway type deal, would be extremely severe. Much worse than the effect of a second referendum returning a remain decision.

Secondly, I certainly don't want this country to be held to ransom because of the threat of some possible far right violence, real or imagined.
The country is already being held to ransom by politicians who for their own selfish ends or because they refuse to accept the result of the referendum are making any sort of deal impossible. I’m not sure a second referendum returning a remain result would be the end of the story for politicians either. These people won’t just go away if brexit is scrapped.

[Hibbyradge]

The country is already being held to ransom by politicians who for their own selfish ends or because they refuse to accept the result of the referendum are making any sort of deal impossible. I’m not sure a second referendum returning a remain result would be the end of the story for politicians either. These people won’t just go away if brexit is scrapped.

That's true.

The difference is that they won't get away with the same lies and half truths that they used to sell Leave in 2016.

There was never a coherent plan in place for leaving the EU, but that didn't matter to a lot of people at the time. They'd need solid economic arguments to win again and those arguments do not exist.

And again, I don't want the country giving in to politicians just because they won't go away. We need to do the right thing for the country, not the least controversial.

[Hibbyradge]

I tried a wee experiment a few days ago. It was my question about Capital Punishment below. It didn't work brilliantly, but I can still make my point.

I gave no explanation as to how Capital Punishment would be used, yet 8 people voted for its return.

Would they all still support CP if I later explained that it would be the penalty for offences ranging from, for example, burglary or GBH?

Or would they want to change their vote?

I imagine at least some would prefer the latter option.

And that's my Brexit analogy. No-one really knew what they were voting for or the consequences.

Now that we can see what an economic disaster it will be, the electorate should be asked if it still wants it to go ahead.

[Fife-Hibee]

Has it sunk in yet that both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn were both brexiteers the whole time?

Theresa May's absolute determination to see brexit go through without it being taken back to the public and Jeremy Corbyn's complete failure to back a public vote either. They both want brexit, just their own visions of brexit which will both be a disaster.

[Fife-Hibee]

Debate still going on in parliament for those night owls like myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_jDcN90Nt0

[Mon Dieu4]

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of a second vote. It smacks a bit of keep asking the question until we get the answer we want. I’m totally against brexit and I think remain would win a second referendum, but I believe the consequences would be quite severe if brexit was reversed. I believe it would lead to a significant rise of the far right in England that could well turn violent.
Any future referendums would also lead to calls for a second vote by the losers. The Norway model seems to me to be the best option now, but that won’t satisfy the leavers.

Kinda where I'm at too, I wanted to remain, but I agree it does reek of keep voting until you get the "correct" answer, it may sound severe but I think we have to see it through and if everything goes to total **** then the people responsible have no one to blame but themselves and need held to account(I am also well aware that they won't be and that it's people's lives I'm happy enough to be playing a game with to prove a point)

Thing is I'm happy enough to have a second independence referendum, think I'm just a big hypocrite who's happy enough to bite my nose of to spite my face as long as it's suiting my agenda, but at least I admit it

[Slavers]

People can have no complaints when in the future their vote is ignored and a result is over turned to suit politicians, central bankers and large corporations.

In fact id say we will never be allowed a vote on some thing so important again. Scottish Independence? forget it. If it's not what the establishment and central banks want then you won't get it.

[matty_f]

Kinda where I'm at too, I wanted to remain, but I agree it does reek of keep voting until you get the "correct" answer, it may sound severe but I think we have to see it through and if everything goes to total **** then the people responsible have no one to blame but themselves and need held to account(I am also well aware that they won't be and that it's people's lives I'm happy enough to be playing a game with to prove a point)

Thing is I'm happy enough to have a second independence referendum, think I'm just a big hypocrite who's happy enough to bite my nose of to spite my face as long as it's suiting my agenda, but at least I admit it

I don't think it's a case of keeping going until you get the answer you want, it's more a case of recognising that this outcome that we're heading towards is far removed from what anybody wanted, and actually now that some work has been done into the consequences of Brexit, people should have the opportunity to vote.

I think it's quite conceivable that if we knew at the time of the referendum what we know now, the outcome of the vote would have been different.

A second vote doesn't guarantee a reversal, leave voters are just as able to go back to the ballots as remainers.

[danhibees1875]

I don't think it's a case of keeping going until you get the answer you want, it's more a case of recognising that this outcome that we're heading towards is far removed from what anybody wanted, and actually now that some work has been done into the consequences of Brexit, people should have the opportunity to vote.

I think it's quite conceivable that if we knew at the time of the referendum what we know now, the outcome of the vote would have been different.

A second vote doesn't guarantee a reversal, leave voters are just as able to go back to the ballots as remainers.

:agree:

I don't see how a second vote, after these 2 years of complete political uncertainty and the showing up of Brexit to be an impossible task to keep anyone happy and with the economic downturn regardless of which Brexit path is taken, could be seen as "voting over and over again until we get the right result".

[Bangkok Hibby]

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of a second vote. It smacks a bit of keep asking the question until we get the answer we want. I’m totally against brexit and I think remain would win a second referendum, but I believe the consequences would be quite severe if brexit was reversed. I believe it would lead to a significant rise of the far right in England that could well turn violent.
Any future referendums would also lead to calls for a second vote by the losers. The Norway model seems to me to be the best option now, but that won’t satisfy the leavers.

The Grieve amendment may unintentionally have swung this in favour of May's deal. The "Hard Brexiteers" surely don't want parliament to instruct the Government to have a second vote. I think many who were going to vote against may well be now having second thoughts.

[Mon Dieu4]

I don't think it's a case of keeping going until you get the answer you want, it's more a case of recognising that this outcome that we're heading towards is far removed from what anybody wanted, and actually now that some work has been done into the consequences of Brexit, people should have the opportunity to vote.

I think it's quite conceivable that if we knew at the time of the referendum what we know now, the outcome of the vote would have been different.

A second vote doesn't guarantee a reversal, leave voters are just as able to go back to the ballots as remainers.

A percentage of people won't have known what they were voting for, but I don't buy into the whole it was millions of people, I think a large percentage just wanted out no matter what the cost

another vote will no doubt result in a small victory for remain, say 60/40 but that does absolutely nothing to quash the unrest, you still end up with around half the people who voted being unhappy and this time they will have ammunition that it was a fix(be it real or made up)

I just don't think you can make everyone happy with either situation so may as well see it through

Must admit I also have a vested interest in this as I'm an advocate for Independence and Brexit will expdite it, so I'm prepared to take the pain to get my end goal, as I said I'm a total hypocrite I know and I can be very calculating at times even.

Maybe I've just read too much Machiavelli :greengrin

[Smartie]

I don't think it's a case of keeping going until you get the answer you want, it's more a case of recognising that this outcome that we're heading towards is far removed from what anybody wanted, and actually now that some work has been done into the consequences of Brexit, people should have the opportunity to vote.

I think it's quite conceivable that if we knew at the time of the referendum what we know now, the outcome of the vote would have been different.

A second vote doesn't guarantee a reversal, leave voters are just as able to go back to the ballots as remainers.

I don't think that a second vote is undemocratic.

The problem I (a remainer) have with it, is that I am yet to hear any Leave voter claim they were stitched up. If anything, they're more resolute than ever (I know the polls say otherwise).

The noise and demand for the second referendum seems to come from remainers who are aghast now they see what Brexit really means.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think that a second vote is undemocratic.

The problem I (a remainer) have with it, is that I am yet to hear any Leave voter claim they were stitched up. If anything, they're more resolute than ever (I know the polls say otherwise).

Isn't it the case that a lot more Leavers than Remainers have died since 2016, so even if no Leaver at all changes their mind, Leave might lose a second referendum? :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Isn't it the case that a lot more Leavers than Remainers have died since 2016, so even if no Leaver at all changes their mind, Leave might lose a second referendum? :dunno:

...but a lot of Remainers have become officially old, which automatically turns them into Leavers.

:cb

[Moulin Yarns]

...but a lot of Remainers have become officially old, which automatically turns them into Leavers.

:cb

Then I saw her face, now I'm a releaver :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm seeing some of the 'legal advice'


Document makes clear NI would be ‘in EU single market for goods and EU customs regime’ and GB ‘essentially treated as third country’ by NI DUP will be livid

Border down the Irish Sea after all

[JeMeSouviens]

Geoffrey Cox's legal advice now published. Confirms what we already knew.


No way out of the backstop unless EU agrees:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtpsh4SWsAAiTsG.jpg


And not a snowball's chance in hell of the DUP supporting the deal:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtptZDlXQAAH5MD.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

Geoffrey Cox's legal advice now published. Confirms what we already knew.


No way out of the backstop unless EU agrees:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtpsh4SWsAAiTsG.jpg


And not a snowball's chance in hell of the DUP supporting the deal:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtptZDlXQAAH5MD.jpg


Beat me to it, that second last sentence is the killer.

Link for any legal eagles on here.

https://t.co/IY5WiYyMSK

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm seeing some of the 'legal advice'

DUP will be livid

Border down the Irish Sea after all

The DUP are *always* livid, it's their default state. :wink:

This does also trample right across Mundell and Davidson's "red lines". Pretty pale pink lines by this stage. Not holding breath waiting for their resignations. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

PMQs at WM. Corbyn opens on universal credit. Yes it's important, yes the Tories are a disgusting shower but ... HELLO, ANYTHING HAPPEN YESTERDAY, JEZ? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

...but a lot of Remainers have become officially old, which automatically turns them into Leavers.

:cb

It's no so much that they willingly become leavers. They just lose their ability to question bull****.

[Fife-Hibee]

How many times are the puppets going to stand up and say "support the deal" followed by May standing up saying "I agree with the honourable Gentleman/Lady"?

If that's their tactic to win people over then they've completely lost the plot.

[GlesgaeHibby]

PMQs at WM. Corbyn opens on universal credit. Yes it's important, yes the Tories are a disgusting shower but ... HELLO, ANYTHING HAPPEN YESTERDAY, JEZ? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The guy is ****ing mental. Massive open goal in front of him, and he misses again. Easiest way for him to fix the issues with UC would be in Government, and the easiest way to do this is to lay into this lot after the shambles yesterday where the govt lost 3 votes in a single day for first time in 40 years. Labour need shot of this clown, and pronto.

[McSwanky]

The guy is ****ing mental. Massive open goal in front of him, and he misses again. Easiest way for him to fix the issues with UC would be in Government, and the easiest way to do this is to lay into this lot after the shambles yesterday where the govt lost 3 votes in a single day for first time in 40 years. Labour need shot of this clown, and pronto.

God forbid he try and bring the debate back to something that is costing lives right now...


There's 5 days of specific Brexit debate, I'm sure he'll get his point across in that. In fact, did he not have anything to say last night? (I only watched bits of the debate, including Boris Johnson, but I assume the leader of the opposition had some air time?)

[Bangkok Hibby]

Then I saw her face, now I'm a releaver :wink:

Haha, showing your age here :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

It's no so much that they willingly become leavers. They just lose their ability to question bull****.More unsupported ageism.

If you really want to get people on your side, you'll have to find a way of engaging with them, rather than just writing them off.
(Ibid, Ian Murray's opponent in the last but one GE)
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[danhibees1875]

God forbid he try and bring the debate back to something that is costing lives right now...


There's 5 days of specific Brexit debate, I'm sure he'll get his point across in that. In fact, did he not have anything to say last night? (I only watched bits of the debate, including Boris Johnson, but I assume the leader of the opposition had some air time?)

I'm somewhere in the middle. The constitutional debates are guilty of holding us back from making required progress in the day to day governing of the country; but at the same time there have been enough revelations as of late that Brexit should be the star of the show today.

[Hibbyradge]

It's no so much that they willingly become leavers. They just lose their ability to question bull****.

Of course, you have no research or proof to back up your prejudiced views, but you're certainly providing plenty evidence about yourself.

[matty_f]

A percentage of people won't have known what they were voting for, but I don't buy into the whole it was millions of people, I think a large percentage just wanted out no matter what the cost

another vote will no doubt result in a small victory for remain, say 60/40 but that does absolutely nothing to quash the unrest, you still end up with around half the people who voted being unhappy and this time they will have ammunition that it was a fix(be it real or made up)

I just don't think you can make everyone happy with either situation so may as well see it through

Must admit I also have a vested interest in this as I'm an advocate for Independence and Brexit will expdite it, so I'm prepared to take the pain to get my end goal, as I said I'm a total hypocrite I know and I can be very calculating at times even.

Maybe I've just read too much Machiavelli :greengrin

The people delivering Brexit seem to only just be figuring out what it means, so how joe public can say they knew what they were voting for with any credibility is beyond me.

Things like hard/soft Brexit, deal/no deal, hard borders and backstops etc have only come since the referendum and are all significant issues.

In the same way that really, the independence referendum suffered from a lack of clarity on the post-independence landscape, the leave/remain referendum was pitched on people's perceptions of what leaving the EU might look like, with no discernable facts to back it up.

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course, you have no research or proof to back up your prejudiced views, but you're certainly providing plenty evidence about yourself.

Fife.

http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/v22vodart/3573/p3573_v_v8_ab.jpg


Why did we waste money on a new bridge to the dark ages?

[Jack]

A percentage of people won't have known what they were voting for, but I don't buy into the whole it was millions of people, I think a large percentage just wanted out no matter what the cost

another vote will no doubt result in a small victory for remain, say 60/40 but that does absolutely nothing to quash the unrest, you still end up with around half the people who voted being unhappy and this time they will have ammunition that it was a fix(be it real or made up)

I just don't think you can make everyone happy with either situation so may as well see it through

Must admit I also have a vested interest in this as I'm an advocate for Independence and Brexit will expdite it, so I'm prepared to take the pain to get my end goal, as I said I'm a total hypocrite I know and I can be very calculating at times even.

Maybe I've just read too much Machiavelli :greengrin

If there was anybody voting to leave knew what they were voting for they knew more than the politicians leading the charge.

[Fife-Hibee]

Of course, you have no research or proof to back up your prejudiced views, but you're certainly providing plenty evidence about yourself.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/

You really need to read the academic articles before you post them in response to your pish. This has nothing to do with how people of a certain age vote one way while people of a different age vote the opposite way.

Now, will you please provide proper evidence to back up your ageist views or crawl back under the stone you emerged from.

People on this forum deserve better debate than you are able to provide.

I'll go further and say that you using the article to 'support your view is insulting to a large number of elderly people who may have and may not have levels of dementia.

[Fife-Hibee]

You really need to read the academic articles before you post them in response to your pish. This has nothing to do with how people of a certain age vote one way while people of a different age vote the opposite way.

Now, will you please provide proper evidence to back up your ageist views or crawl back under the stone you emerged from.

People on this forum deserve better debate than you are able to provide.

Are you suggesting that cognitive function doesn't effect the decisions that people make?

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/

:rolleyes:

[Saturday Boy]

It's no so much that they willingly become leavers. They just lose their ability to question bull****.

If that’s the case, why are there so many replies questioning your posts?

Just curious (aged 59)

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you suggesting that cognitive function doesn't effect the decisions that people make?

http://theconversation.com/brexit-how-cognitive-psychology-helps-us-make-sense-of-the-vote-95031

maybe you should blame different classes rather than ages of voters.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-anxiety-disorder-britain-middle-class/

In other words, you can do whatever research you want to get the opinions you want to be supported.

Let's face it you are prejudiced against older people who you blame for the state of Brexit, even though lots of younger working class people believed the hype about immigration.

[Fife-Hibee]

If that’s the case, why are there so many replies questioning your posts?

Just curious (aged 59)

Because what i'm saying requires an element of study. The more thought a view requires, the more likely it is to be rejected by the senior populous. The science backs this up.

It may not be the nice thing to say, but it's proven. The older you get, the more cognitive function is impaired. Impacting a persons ability to make decisions based on rational thought and reasoning and more likely led by emotion.

[Hibbyradge]

Dennis Skinner is 85.

Jeremy Corbyn is 70 next May.

[Fife-Hibee]

http://theconversation.com/brexit-how-cognitive-psychology-helps-us-make-sense-of-the-vote-95031

maybe you should blame different classes rather than ages of voters.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-anxiety-disorder-britain-middle-class/

In other words, you can do whatever research you want to get the opinions you want to be supported.

Let's face it you are prejudiced against older people who you blame for the state of Brexit, even though lots of younger working class people believed the hype about immigration.

Well although it's true that there were younger people who backed brexit as well, there is no ignoring the overall statistics, which clearly show that the older you were, the more likely you were to believe the hype.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by _age.png

[CropleyWasGod]

Well although it's true that there were younger people who backed brexit as well, there is no ignoring the overall statistics, which clearly show that the older you were, the more likely you were to believe the hype.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by _age.png

Where's your research for that nugget?

[Fife-Hibee]

Where's your research for that nugget?

Every available source on the web.

https://www.google.com/search?q=brexit+by+age&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb_sfki4nfAhXDa1AKHf5uCogQ_AUIDygC&biw=1366&bih=654#imgrc=_

[CropleyWasGod]

Every available source on the web.

https://www.google.com/search?q=brexit+by+age&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb_sfki4nfAhXDa1AKHf5uCogQ_AUIDygC&biw=1366&bih=654#imgrc=_

You ignored the actual question. I didn't ask "where is the evidence that older people were more likely to vote Remain."

Where is the research that says that older people were more likely to "believe the hype"?

[Moulin Yarns]

Well although it's true that there were younger people who backed brexit as well, there is no ignoring the overall statistics, which clearly show that the older you were, the more likely you were to believe the hype.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by _age.png

Hype, exactly what I said.

[Fife-Hibee]

You ignored the actual question. I didn't ask "where is the evidence that older people were more likely to vote Remain."

Where is the research that says that older people were more likely to "believe the hype"?

Perhaps the stats that show that the older you were, the more likely you were to back brexit?

"Believing the hype" isn't my language, it's the language that has been used by many of you on this thread.

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps the stats that show that the older you were, the more likely you were to back brexit?

"Believing the hype" isn't my language, it's the language that has been used by many of you on this thread."You"?

Not me. I didn't use it. You did.





Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

"You"?

Not me. I didn't use it. You did.

I simply replicated what somebody arguing against my point said, but applied it to the point I was making which I have already backed up with information. I haven't recieved any information to suggest that i'm wrong and don't believe that such information exists. So there is no point continuing this debate.

[Hibbyradge]

Perhaps the stats that show that the older you were, the more likely you were to back brexit?

"Believing the hype" isn't my language, it's the language that has been used by many of you on this thread.

You said "believe the bullsh**".

[CropleyWasGod]

I simply replicated what somebody arguing against my point said, but applied it to the point I was making which I have already backed up with information. I haven't recieved any information to suggest that i'm wrong and don't believe that such information exists. So there is no point continuing this debate.

You haven't backed up your assertion that you are right about old people. "They just lose their ability to question bull****."


Again, it's up to you to prove your case, not the other way about.

[Fife-Hibee]

You said "believe the bullsh**".

Shall I go through this thread and copy and paste every instance where it was suggested that people who voted for brexit didn't really know what they were voting for?

I've already proven that the older demographic was more drawn towards brexit (I could include one regarding conservative voters as well). I also linked you to a study that shows that cognitive function becomes increasingly more impaired as we age.

I'm not really sure what else I need to supply you with to back up my point, seeing as I haven't been provided with anything that would suggest otherwise, which I would be more than happy to digest if provided.

[Hibbyradge]

I simply replicated what somebody arguing against my point said, but applied it to the point I was making which I have already backed up with information. I haven't recieved any information to suggest that i'm wrong and don't believe that such information exists. So there is no point continuing this debate.

You started off saying that older who folk voted to leave did so to spite younger people.

Now you're saying that they did so because they didn't have the smarts to agree with your point of view.

What were the reasons for the younger voters who voted to leave?

[CropleyWasGod]

Shall I go through this thread and copy and paste every instance where it was suggested that people who voted for brexit didn't really know what they were voting for?

I've already proven that the older demographic was more drawn towards brexit (I could include one regarding conservative voters as well). I also linked you to a study that shows that cognitive function becomes increasingly more impaired as we age.

I'm not really sure what else I need to supply you with to back up my point, seeing as I haven't been provided with anything that would suggest otherwise, which I would be more than happy to digest if provided.

Where is the causal link between the two?

[Fife-Hibee]

You haven't backed up your assertion that you are right about old people. "They just lose their ability to question bull****."


Again, it's up to you to prove your case, not the other way about.

I get the impression that no matter what I supply you with, it's never going to be enough. Impaired cognitive fuction impacts a persons ability to apply reason and logic when making decisions. This isn't an opinion, this is backed up by science. It is also backed up by science that as we age, our cognitive functions become increasingly more impaired.

I'm not really sure what else you're expecting me to add in order to back up my point.

[Fife-Hibee]

Where is the causal link between the two?

Brexit = lack of information
The older you are = the more likely you were to back brexit
Science = The older you are, the more likely you are to back a decision that requires the least amount of thought

I'm not sure how else i'm supposed to "link them". I don't feel like there is anything that could be put inbetween that which would link them any closer together, or alternatively to show that they somehow aren't linked.

[Hibbyradge]

I get the impression that no matter what I supply you with, it's never going to be enough. Impaired cognitive fuction impacts a persons ability to apply reason and logic when making decisions. This isn't an opinion, this is backed up by science. It is also backed up by science that as we age, our cognitive functions become increasingly more impaired.

I'm not really sure what else you're expecting me to add in order to back up my point.

You've deliberately conflated those things.

There is no link between the two.

[CropleyWasGod]

Brexit = lack of information
The older you are = the more likely you were to back brexit
Science = The older you are, the more likely you are to back a decision that requires the least amount of thought

I'm not sure how else i'm supposed to "link them". I don't feel like there is anything that could be put inbetween that would link them any closer together, or alternatively to show that they somehow aren't linked.

Oh, I don't know. Some sort of academic research?

Your stance is the very reason Ian Murray got voted in as an MP. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

You've deliberately conflated those things.

There is no link between the two.

But cognitive impairment impacts a persons ability to make informed decisions. So how can you say that there is no link? Politics requires making decisions does it not? :confused:

[Fife-Hibee]

Your stance is the very reason Ian Murray got voted in as an MP. :greengrin

Oh, I don't disagree with you there. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

I get the impression that no matter what I supply you with, it's never going to be enough. Impaired cognitive fuction impacts a persons ability to apply reason and logic when making decisions. This isn't an opinion, this is backed up by science. It is also backed up by science that as we age, our cognitive functions become increasingly more impaired.

I'm not really sure what else you're expecting me to add in order to back up my point.

As I stated before, you can skew statistics to support your opinion.

Higher educated groups voted remain, a lot of demographic info here.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh, I don't disagree with you there. :wink:

In that case, you must agree that you're going to have to engage with older people if you want them to come round to your way of thinking. Otherwise, the same results will happen.

[Hibbyradge]

But cognitive impairment impacts a persons ability to make informed decisions. So how can you say that there is no link? Politics requires making decisions does it not? :confused:

So the older people who voted to remain made informed decisions, but the leavers were uninformed?

Why weren't the remainers cognitively impaired? After all, the status quo was the least complex decision of the two.

[Fife-Hibee]

As I stated before, you can skew statistics to support your opinion.

Higher educated groups voted remain, a lot of demographic info here.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

Well yes, this research makes sense. The more educated you are and the more information you are able to retain, the less cognitive dysfunction you suffer from.

Cognitive dysfunction ages at a different rate for different people. One person at 65 years old will have better cognitive retention than somebody else of the same age. Genetics play a big role. However, there is no getting away from the fact that the older you get the worse your cognitive abilities become, even if it's degradation is at a different rate compared to somebody else.

[Fife-Hibee]

So the older people who voted to remain made informed decisions, but the leavers were uninformed?

Why weren't the remainers cognitively impaired? After all, the status quo was the least complex decision of the two.

I never claimed that everybody who voted remain did so through informed decision making. There will have been many people who turned up and voted one way or the other, without even following the debates and information being put out. The more impaired a person's cognitive abilities are, the more likely this is to be the case for them.

The reason leave was favoured over remain based on age was because leave was coming out with things like "£350 million more for the NHS" and "Taking back control of our borders". These strike emotional cords in people suffering from cognitive dysfunction. It's their emotions that sway their decision making, because they can't rely on logical reasoning as well as they could when they were younger. Again, the research backs this up, even if it's unpleasant to accept.

Young people can also suffer from cognitive dysfunction, but the percentages are considerably lower.

[Moulin Yarns]

Fife-Hibee, I am sure you believe what you are posting about 'old people' but I think you are digging too much. Older people are more likely to be averse to change, but also possibly believed that the NHS would get lots of money.

[Hibbyradge]

I never claimed that everybody who voted remain did so through informed decision making. There will have been many people who turned up and voted one way or the other, without even following the debates and information being put out. The more impaired a person's cognitive abilities are, the more likely this is to be the case for them.

The reason leave was favoured over remain based on age was because leave was coming out with things like "£350 million more for the NHS" and "Taking back control of our borders". These strike emotional cords in people suffering from cognitive dysfunction. It's their emotions that sway their decision making, because they can't rely on logical reasoning as well as they could when they were younger. Again, the research backs this up, even if it's unpleasant to accept.

Young people can also suffer from cognitive dysfunction, but the percentages are considerably lower.

:faf:

You're at it.

So the remain arguments that the markets would crash, investments would tumble, pensions would suffer, criminals would be able to escape justice and that the threats to the UK from ISIS and Russia would increase without EU cooperation, wouldn't "strike emotional chords"?

You're having a laugh.

At least, after a resounding e-kicking, you've backtracked from your equally ridiculous assertion that older folk voted to leave to spite younger generations.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scottish Parliament (symbolically) rejects deal and no deal and calls for a "better alternative". 92 to 29, ie. everybody but the Tories.

[JeMeSouviens]

The people delivering Brexit seem to only just be figuring out what it means, so how joe public can say they knew what they were voting for with any credibility is beyond me.

Things like hard/soft Brexit, deal/no deal, hard borders and backstops etc have only come since the referendum and are all significant issues.

In the same way that really, the independence referendum suffered from a lack of clarity on the post-independence landscape, the leave/remain referendum was pitched on people's perceptions of what leaving the EU might look like, with no discernable facts to back it up.

The Brexit ref and indyref1 are pretty different beasts:

Indyref1 - government brings forward a plan to do something that requires the people's consent.

Brexitref - government has a vote to try and get the people to kibosh something its backbenchers want (but have no plan for).

[Fife-Hibee]

So the remain arguments that the markets would crash, investments would tumble, pensions would suffer, criminals would be able to escape justice and that the threats to the UK from ISIS and Russia would increase without EU cooperation, wouldn't "strike emotional chords"?

This was very poorly highlighted in the media until after the result (much unlike that other referendum).

Telling old people to consider things like markets, investments, pensions and threats takes considerably more thought than "350 million more for the NHS".

[Hibbyradge]

This was very poorly highlighted in the media until after the result (much unlike that other referendum).

Telling old people to consider things like markets, investments, pensions and threats takes considerably more thought than "350 million more for the NHS".

:hilarious

What an idiotic remark, but it confirms that you're trolling.

[McD]

I simply replicated what somebody arguing against my point said, but applied it to the point I was making which I have already backed up with information. I haven't recieved any information to suggest that i'm wrong and don't believe that such information exists. So there is no point continuing this debate.


:faf:

Talk about confirmation bias

I make a statement of questionable factual basis, and believe there is no information to prove me wrong, therefore I must be correct because any information that is presented to me must be wrong because I don’t believe it to be right.

In short, something must be true because I believe it is. No facts or evidence necessary.

[lapsedhibee]

There can't be many old folk in Edinburgh or Belfast West, as those constituencies voted 74% remain. Or maybe they just couldn't be arsed going out to vote.

:hmmm: Pretty sure I have now proved conclusively that old Scottish and Irish people are lazy*******s.

[Bristolhibby]

In that case, you must agree that you're going to have to engage with older people if you want them to come round to your way of thinking. Otherwise, the same results will happen.

Or just wait for them to die.

Will they be replaced with more remainders switching to leave as you get older.
When do you change from idealistic young un, to cranky auld *******?

J

[Saturday Boy]

Or just wait for them to die.

Will they be replaced with more remainders switching to leave as you get older.
When do you change from idealistic young un, to cranky auld *******?

J

I’m hoping that it’s 60.

Come January I’ve a growing list of “young people” added to my spite list 😉

[CropleyWasGod]

Or just wait for them to die.

Will they be replaced with more remainders switching to leave as you get older.
When do you change from idealistic young un, to cranky auld *******?

J

We need a third option. Idealistic old folk who spend their days mulling over the arguments on the basis of the facts and their own life experience. [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Saturday Boy]

We need a third option. Idealistic old folk who spend their days mulling over the arguments on the basis of the facts and their own life experience. [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Oh no. You’re just confusing things now. I was so looking forward to being spiteful.

And now I find out that there are other options.

Pesky kids

[Hibbyradge]

Oh no. You’re just confusing things now. I was so looking forward to being spiteful.

And now I find out that there are other options.

Pesky kids

I'm going straight for the cognitive dysfunction option.

Spite, confusion and incontinence seem like much better options than merely keeping myself up to date with current affairs and opinions.

[Saturday Boy]

I'm going straight for the cognitive dysfunction option.

Spite, confusion and incontinence seem like much better options than merely keeping myself up to date with current affairs and opinions.

Remember that I know who you are 😂😂😂

As indeed, you know me.

I haven’t been up to date since people started dancing with their arms in the air. Madness, I tell you 😄

By the way, I’m inclined to agree with you 😄

[CropleyWasGod]

Remember that I know who you are [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

As indeed, you know me.

I haven’t been up to date since people started dancing with their arms in the air. Madness, I tell you [emoji1]

By the way, I’m inclined to agree with you [emoji1]Can you tell me who I am?

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[Saturday Boy]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;5621765]Can you tell me who I am?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

I do know HR from a previous life. 6 foot 5 with ginger hair 😉

I’m not sure I could admit to knowing an accountant, even if I did 😄

[JeMeSouviens]

Can you tell me who I am?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I do know HR from a previous life. 6 foot 5 with ginger hair 😉

I’m not sure I could admit to knowing an accountant, even if I did 😄

Ooh, spiteful! You were supposed to be going after the youngsters though. :wink:

[Saturday Boy]

Ooh, spiteful! You were supposed to be going after the youngsters though. :wink:

Sorry. Just practicing for when I’m old.

Cocoa finished, I’m off for an early night.

Haven’t quite got the hang of the 24 hour clock yet 😄

[Hibbyradge]

It's a strange world when the Brexit thread is a respite from the main board.

But it is.

Even FHs trolling is easier to cope with compared to the MB lunacy.

[weecounty hibby]

It's a strange world when the Brexit thread is a respite from the main board.

But it is.

Even FHs trolling is easier to cope with compared to the MB lunacy.
I always check .net in the morning but I clicked on the main board, saw the thread titles and didn't even open one of them. Thank **** for Brexit!!

[GlesgaeHibby]

God forbid he try and bring the debate back to something that is costing lives right now...


There's 5 days of specific Brexit debate, I'm sure he'll get his point across in that. In fact, did he not have anything to say last night? (I only watched bits of the debate, including Boris Johnson, but I assume the leader of the opposition had some air time?)

Picking UC and austerity (and again I'd reiterate I agree it's important and torys need held to account for awful policies) when the govt is on the ropes over Brexit is just such a missed opportunity. It's countless missed chances like this that sees the Tories increasing their lead in the polls. Labour need shot of Corbyn, and quickly

[Jack]

So according to Fife-Hibby old folk have lost there marbles.

It's a known fact that people from LSEG (lower social and economic groups) have a lower life expectancy than those in higher groups. So poor folk die early and rich folk die older, albeit without marbles.

That's where hearts must be getting their secret money! They're targeting old folk for donations. The old folk are giving all their money to hearts and because they've lost their marbles they can't remember who they are hence the anonymity!

It's must be true.

That should be enough of a casual link - even for CropleyWasGod.

[lord bunberry]

This nails it for me

https://twitter.com/scotsfox71/status/1070452478754332673?s=21

[McSwanky]

Picking UC and austerity (and again I'd reiterate I agree it's important and torys need held to account for awful policies) when the govt is on the ropes over Brexit is just such a missed opportunity. It's countless missed chances like this that sees the Tories increasing their lead in the polls. Labour need shot of Corbyn, and quickly

I don't agree, we're crying out for politicians to be more honest and stop playing political games. Public confidence in politicians is at an all-time low (if what I read is correct), surely some good old fashioned standing up for what you believe in is to be applauded?

His actions yesterday would actually make me more likely to vote for Corbyn in an election, maybe I'm just an outlier.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't agree, we're crying out for politicians to be more honest and stop playing political games. Public confidence in politicians is at an all-time low (if what I read is correct), surely some good old fashioned standing up for what you believe in is to be applauded?

His actions yesterday would actually make me more likely to vote for Corbyn in an election, maybe I'm just an outlier.

You may well be ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtpQCNIXgAAhMQd.jpg

There's nothing wrong with hammering the Tories on UC but ffs pick your moment. The entire UK media, not just the political bit, is focused on Brexit atm. This was his chance to be relevant and impose himself on that subject. But for whatever reason, he just can't do it. May is absolutely abjectly ****ing hopeless and the Tories are falling apart but Corbyn still can't poll ahead of her.

[McSwanky]

You may well be ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtpQCNIXgAAhMQd.jpg

There's nothing wrong with hammering the Tories on UC but ffs pick your moment. The entire UK media, not just the political bit, is focused on Brexit atm. This was his chance to be relevant and impose himself on that subject. But for whatever reason, he just can't do it. May is absolutely abjectly ****ing hopeless and the Tories are falling apart but Corbyn still can't poll ahead of her.

Steady, I didn't actually say I was going to vote for him!

I suppose my point was that PMQs is PMQs. It's not a Brexit specific debate. There were (IIRC) over 7 hours of Brexit specific debate the day before, and hours of it after PMQs yesterday. Did Corbyn not impose himself in that bit? (Which is the right place to do it IMO.) If he didn't, then fair play, you have a point.

[RyeSloan]

Steady, I didn't actually say I was going to vote for him!

I suppose my point was that PMQs is PMQs. It's not a Brexit specific debate. There were (IIRC) over 7 hours of Brexit specific debate the day before, and hours of it after PMQs yesterday. Did Corbyn not impose himself in that bit? (Which is the right place to do it IMO.) If he didn't, then fair play, you have a point.

The government suffered a historic set back in terms of the votes it lost..worst day in 40 years according to some commentators.

To then not reference that at all in the set piece opposition v government leaders question time seems an outrageous decision on the face of it.

But I’m surprised at people’s surprise at the incompetence of Corbyn, does anyone really expect anything else. He is after all so OLD! ;-)

[GlesgaeHibby]

I don't agree, we're crying out for politicians to be more honest and stop playing political games. Public confidence in politicians is at an all-time low (if what I read is correct), surely some good old fashioned standing up for what you believe in is to be applauded?

His actions yesterday would actually make me more likely to vote for Corbyn in an election, maybe I'm just an outlier.

I agree with this. The thing is though that he'd have a better chance of getting into power to fix the mess created by the Tories if he was laying into them properly and doing the job of leader of the opposition. May had just had a crushing day in parliament the day before, he should have took advantage of that situation for his benefit. Raising points on austerity and UC aren't seeing him make any traction in opinion polls.

Mind you, I can't see anything he does making him electable which is why Labour need shot of him.

[McSwanky]

I agree with this. The thing is though that he'd have a better chance of getting into power to fix the mess created by the Tories if he was laying into them properly and doing the job of leader of the opposition. May had just had a crushing day in parliament the day before, he should have took advantage of that situation for his benefit. Raising points on austerity and UC aren't seeing him make any traction in opinion polls.

Mind you, I can't see anything he does making him electable which is why Labour need shot of him.

Fair enough, I can see your point (although I still don't agree with you!) I'll leave it there I think. :thumbsup:

[Just Alf]

The government suffered a historic set back in terms of the votes it lost..worst day in 40 years according to some commentators.

To then not reference that at all in the set piece opposition v government leaders question time seems an outrageous decision on the face of it.

But I’m surprised at people’s surprise at the incompetence of Corbyn, does anyone really expect anything else. He is after all so OLD! ;-)I think you're bang on, he'd probably forgotten everything about the day before! :-)

Before PMQ's on a tea break at work we had just been talking about how Brexit was taking up so much of parliamentary time when there was other important issues.

Then later I heard about Corbyn and my 1st thought was what an idiot how could he miss an open goal?!

I guess it shows in a way he's in a no win situation.

All the above said, he'd maybe be able to get power and then address those important issues IF he played a bit more to the public consciousness and concentrated on the elements where the tories are (currently) on the ropes.

All very complicated and contradictory... Just like Brexit



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[GlesgaeHibby]

Fair enough, I can see your point (although I still don't agree with you!) I'll leave it there I think. :thumbsup:

:aok:

[Hibbyradge]

This is a brilliant piece by Sir Max Hastings, which appeared in yesterday’s edition of The Times and in which he shows the damage that Brexit has already inflicted on the social fabric of the country and how it is set to do even more harm in years to come!

“A few weeks ago a prominent hedge fund boss, whom I know slightly, invited me to a glitzy weekend. After declining, I mused on his gambit. He is an avowed Brexiteer who has committed millions to the cause, and asserts that Boris Johnson should rightfully be prime minister. He anticipates increasing his fortune by shorting Britain.

My hunch is that he offered the invitation in hopes of precipitating a collapse of my principled resistance to everything he represents. This was unflattering, but made his proposal easy to reject.

Yet many of us face more difficult social dilemmas. The political crisis has created tensions between old friends, and within families, such as few of us have ever experienced. Professor Sir Michael Howard, who was born in 1922, vividly recalls the Suez precedent, but suggests that today’s predicament is worse: “Suez happened, and was appallingly divisive, but then was over. Brexit will go on and on.”

It is a commonplace of civilised discourse that we should be able to meet people who hold different views from ourselves without coming to fisticuffs. In 1911, when Winston Churchill and FE Smith founded the Other Club, then comprising a mingled Liberal and Conservative membership, they wrote a line into its charter which is still read aloud at every dinner: “Nothing in the rules or intercourse of the Club shall interfere with the rancour or asperity of party politics”.

Yet the 1912-14 crisis, in which the Liberals sought to impose Irish Home Rule while the Conservatives resisted to the point of supporting Protestant Ulster’s preparations for armed revolt, strained Britain’s social and political fabric in a fashion that offers the nearest parallel to today’s misery.

Margot Asquith, feisty wife of the Liberal prime minister, wrote a cross letter to her Conservative friend Lord Curzon, complaining about the exclusion of herself and her husband from the Curzons’ summer ball. She received an icy response, saying that it was unthinkable the Asquiths should be received at such a moment, given the government’s Ulster policy.

Tories perceived in Home Rule a threat to the integrity of the United Kingdom, which might in turn signal the beginnings of an unravelling of the British Empire. The matter in dispute today is less profound only because Britain is a much less important place. American friends often urge me to stop bleating about its plight, because our plan to hurl ourselves off a cliff — as they see it — does not matter much, alongside the enormities racking the United States.

To those of us who live here, however, what is taking place seems so serious that it is hard to sit across a table even with friends of long standing who welcome Brexit. Social life is incomparably less stressful among friends on the same side.

Michael Heseltine urges the alternative course: “Lunch and dine with every Brexiteer you can seek out! Convert them!” The elder statesman, however, possesses the advantage that his fellow-guests are more likely to endure a harangue from him than from me. Matthew Parris was surely correct when he wrote here a couple of months ago that the Brexit and Remain tribes are so deeply entrenched that few of either’s members can bring themselves to admit to having been wrong about something so big and important.

It is nonetheless impossible to be less than deeply unhappy about the fracturing of Britain’s middle class that has taken place. My wife and I recently met in Oxford that fine historian Professor Avi Shlaim and his wife, who consider Brexit a graver strategic disaster than was Suez. We asked the Shlaims how they cope with the strains of meeting friends of contrary views. They responded innocently that they do not have any.

Yet deep in the countryside where we live, more than a few people view the leading Brexiteers as gods, prospective deliverers of our nation from the heathen across the Channel. I cannot imagine what arguments we might advance that would change their minds. They consider it worth accepting any financial burden short of selling the horses to escape the thraldom of Brussels. The prospect of bearing their share of the £1,000 a year financial loss facing every family in Britain as the minimum price of Brexit causes them much less alarm than it might and should inspire among, say, Nissan employees in Sunderland.

I doubt that we are the only couple who lie awake at night agonising about all this. We talk about the possibilities of meeting friends of differing views and merely discussing Trollope, or our children. Yet although not ourselves politicians, we are political animals. For decades I lived and worked among the people who ran the country. Now that we face the most important national decision since 1945, as some of us believe this to be, it is almost impossible to pass an evening in company without addressing it.

Maybe old relationships can be resumed once the break with Europe has taken place. Yet I doubt this, because the economic and political fallout, and thus the recriminations, will persist indefinitely. I dislike making historical comparisons which imbue modern events with spurious melodrama. Nonetheless, because I am a student of the English Civil War my head rings with phrases from one of the greatest letters ever written. In July 1643 Roundhead general Sir William Waller addressed Sir Ralph Hopton, declining the suggestion of a parley from his old friend turned Cavalier opponent:

“Certainly my affections to you are so unchangeable, that hostility itself cannot violate my friendship to your person, but I must be true to the cause wherein I serve ... Where my conscience is interested, all other obligations are swallowed up ... That great God, which is the searcher of my heart, knows with what a sad sense I go upon this service, and with what a perfect hatred I detest this war without an enemy ... We are both upon the stage and must act those parts that are assigned to us in this tragedy.”

The crisis facing today’s Britain is bloodless, thank the Lord. Unlike Waller and Hopton, most of us are mere spectators rather than actors. A rural friend, baffled by the intensity of the Hastings family’s feelings, asked us wonderingly: “Why do you care so much?” I answered that though we may well lose this battle, some of us are determined that our children and grandchildren will never have cause to say that we wavered in venting opposition to a course that promises only national frustration, loneliness and relative impoverishment.”

[Fife-Hibee]

One SNP supporter in the question time crowd. Good to see that it's representative.

[Tornadoes70]

One SNP supporter in the question time crowd. Good to see that it's representative.

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

[stantonhibby]

One SNP supporter in the question time crowd. Good to see that it's representative.

Is Bishops Stortford a hotbed of Scottish Nationalism then?

[Callum_62]

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

Given there unprecedented popularity in scotland I’m astonished they didnt succeed with that single issue


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[Tornadoes70]

Given there unprecedented popularity in scotland I’m astonished they didnt succeed with that single issue


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Parties can be as popular or as unpopular as they like.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will win single issue referendums as was demonstrated just a few years back in 2014.

[Callum_62]

Parties can be as popular or as unpopular as they like.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will win single issue referendums as was demonstrated just a few years back in 2014.

Or possibly folk dont only vote for them on a single issue [emoji848]


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[Hibbyradge]

Parties can be as popular or as unpopular as they like.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will win single issue referendums as was demonstrated just a few years back in 2014.

Single issue referendums?

Can you name any several issue referendums?

[Tornadoes70]

Or possibly folk dont only vote for them on a single issue [emoji848]


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I don't really care about the snp overly.

They lost the single issue referendum to break up the UK and that's their reason for being.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't really care about the snp overly.

They lost the single issue referendum to break up the UK and that's their reason for being.

Mon Scottish Labour :tee hee:

[Tornadoes70]

Mon Scottish Labour :tee hee:

Nothing wrong with Labour.

Scotland and the rest of the UK is crying out for real leadership from especially Jeremy Corbyn who will implement real change for the benefit of all of us.

[Hibbyradge]

Nothing wrong with Labour.

Scotland and the rest of the UK is crying out for real leadership from especially Jeremy Corbyn who will implement real change for the benefit of all of us.

I never said there was anything wrong with Labour. There's every chance I'll vote for them next GE.

I'm not sure how you're hearing folk crying out for JC, though, given that he's lagging behind against Theresa May in the polls.

[1875godsgift]

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

Is that not true of any party though?

Are Mon Scottish labour clapped by anybody outwith their followers? Are they clapped by their followers? Do their followers know what they're clapping for or are they just told to clap and follow?

[McSwanky]

Nothing wrong with Labour.

Nothing? Nothing at all?

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[stoneyburn hibs]

Nothing wrong with Labour.

Scotland and the rest of the UK is crying out for real leadership from especially Jeremy Corbyn who will implement real change for the benefit of all of us.

The Labour party is crying out for real leadership from Jeremy Corbyn.

[weecounty hibby]

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

Thought you had no interest in the SNP!

[weecounty hibby]

I don't really care about the snp overly.

They lost the single issue referendum to break up the UK and that's their reason for being.
So you keep saying, but they are mentioned in 99%of your posts

[weecounty hibby]

Nothing wrong with Labour.

Scotland and the rest of the UK is crying out for real leadership from especially Jeremy Corbyn who will implement real change for the benefit of all of us.
Labour are crying out for a leader and that ain't Corbyn. In fact I'm not sure they have a natural leader within the whole MP group at the moment

[stoneyburn hibs]

Ian Blackford gave a fine performance on QT last night.
Only just realised that he's a Hibby.

[Hibrandenburg]

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

Rubbish. Blackford received copious applause for his participation. It only fell silent when he mentioned independence but no real surprise there considering the location.

[Tornadoes70]

I never said there was anything wrong with Labour. There's every chance I'll vote for them next GE.

I'm not sure how you're hearing folk crying out for JC, though, given that he's lagging behind against Theresa May in the polls.

:agree:

Delighted to read this.

As for JC, he's been brilliant for Labour after some turbulent years and has been busy restoring the party back to its more traditional party roots. I'm very confident many of our supporters will feel able to vote Labour once again and turn their backs on protest vote single issue parties such as the dictatorship that is the snp.

[Callum_62]

:agree:

Delighted to read this.

turn their backs on protest vote single issue parties such as the dictatorship that is the snp.

Here fishy fishy fishy [emoji23][emoji23]



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[Moulin Yarns]

They're a single issue party whose sole mission is to break up the UK.

Are you really that surprised when they aren't clapped from anyone but their followers?

:kettle:

[Moulin Yarns]

Is that not true of any party though?

Are Mon Scottish labour clapped by anybody outwith their followers? Are they clapped by their followers? Do their followers know what they're clapping for or are they just told to clap and follow?

:monkey: Mon Scottish Labour

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't really care about the snp overly.

They lost the single issue referendum to break up the UK and that's their reason for being.

:tub4:

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree:

Delighted to read this.

As for JC, he's been brilliant for Labour after some turbulent years and has been busy restoring the party back to its more traditional party roots. I'm very confident many of our supporters will feel able to vote Labour once again and turn their backs on protest vote single issue parties such as the dictatorship that is the snp.

In truth, where Hibby Radge lives there isn't much of a choice, unless he wants to stand for the SNP in York

[Just Alf]

SNP one dimensional and single issue? .... This must've been photoshopped I guess.

[Just Alf]

On a more serious note, I've been talking to folks about a 2nd vote, there's a big argument that the decision's been made, also that it's not worth rerunning one as most folks views are entrenched one way or another.

What most pundits on TV and elsewhere seem to forget is that there's a major group of non voters, most (not all) I've discussed it with didn't vote because they thought remain would skoosh it.

Here's the original numbers

Leave 17.4 million

Remain 16.1 million

Didn't vote 13 million


Whatever people think, that 13 million is a big number to go for!

[Hibbyradge]

:agree:

Delighted to read this.

As for JC, he's been brilliant for Labour after some turbulent years and has been busy restoring the party back to its more traditional party roots. I'm very confident many of our supporters will feel able to vote Labour once again and turn their backs on protest vote single issue parties such as the dictatorship that is the snp.

Don't get too excited. The SNP don't have any candidates in York.

[JeMeSouviens]

On a more serious note, I've been talking to folks about a 2nd vote, there's a big argument that the decision's been made, also that it's not worth rerunning one as most folks views are entrenched one way or another.

What most pundits on TV and elsewhere seem to forget is that there's a major group of non voters, most (not all) I've discussed it with didn't vote because they thought remain would skoosh it.

Here's the original numbers

Leave 17.4 million

Remain 16.1 million

Didn't vote 13 million


Whatever people think, that 13 million is a big number to go for!


:agree: That could be an important factor in a 2nd ref. I think a major part of the problem with the Remain campaign was it was run entirely on negative lines. Obviously modelled on the No campaign in Indyref1. The trouble was that people weren't sufficiently scared by Project Fear mk 2 because they didn't think Leave stood much chance and because the received wisdom in the UK for all my lifetime has been that Britain is an amazing country that can rule the waves whereas in Scotland it has been we're a basket case that couldn't run a bath.

I think in a 2nd EU ref anyone that's been paying attention* will have a much clearer idea of the UK's actual standing in the world, and vs the EU, and a much clearer idea of what they stand to lose.




* I realise that's a probably smallish minority but it's an invigorated one and the swing needed is small.

[Bristolhibby]

:agree: That could be an important factor in a 2nd ref. I think a major part of the problem with the Remain campaign was it was run entirely on negative lines. Obviously modelled on the No campaign in Indyref1. The trouble was that people weren't sufficiently scared by Project Fear mk 2 because they didn't think Leave stood much chance and because the received wisdom in the UK for all my lifetime has been that Britain is an amazing country that can rule the waves whereas in Scotland it has been we're a basket case that couldn't run a bath.

I think in a 2nd EU ref anyone that's been paying attention* will have a much clearer idea of the UK's actual standing in the world, and vs the EU, and a much clearer idea of what they stand to lose.




* I realise that's a probably smallish minority but it's an invigorated one and the swing needed is small.

My worry is I have been living in an echo chamber (the kind where my opinion makes perfect sense and everyone else is clearly mental to think otherwise). Some of the polling does not make good reading.

In a three way shoot off, Mays deal wins.

England is clearly mental.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ygeu2.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

My worry is I have been living in an echo chamber (the kind where my opinion makes perfect sense and everyone else is clearly mental to think otherwise). Some of the polling does not make good reading.

In a three way shoot off, Mays deal wins.

England is clearly mental.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ygeu2.jpg



Only after we have reunited the island of Ireland, clearly. What is telling about the map is that cities in England look as if they are remain. Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham as far as my geography goes are all blue

[RyeSloan]

My worry is I have been living in an echo chamber (the kind where my opinion makes perfect sense and everyone else is clearly mental to think otherwise). Some of the polling does not make good reading.

In a three way shoot off, Mays deal wins.

England is clearly mental.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ygeu2.jpg

I think that’s common for all people so you are not alone!

For me the most fascinating thing from both Indy and Brexit has been the reaction from those that lost the vote.

The automatic reaction has not been to look at why the losing argument was not strong enough but to create straw man reasons as to why the majority voted against their perspective.

For Indy it was basket case Yoons or suckers for project fear or media bias

For Brexit it’s been little englander racism and delusions left over from the Empire or lately that it was just old senile folk out to spite the young guns.

The process has then been to attack those straw men and to assume the majority were wrong and to actively work against the decisions the polls returned. Often that’s resulted in an interesting juxtaposition of the same argument being used but in opposite ways to justify those positions.

Whatever the outcome of all this it’s pretty clear that both Indy and Brexit are corrosive elements that have caused significant splits in society and exposed the vested interests of all parties on both sides. It leads me to believe nothing from any of them!

My final thought is that none of it is probably worth the bother and certainly not if we go to all the effort of having referendums and then immediately working to thwart the outcomes no matter what. So maybe we should have a referendum on the use of referendums as currently they seem to have done nothing but create more division and more uncertainty rather than resolve anything.

[Just Alf]

Priti Patel at it again


Check out @NicolaSturgeon’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1070982903482515456?s=09


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[Fife-Hibee]

SNP one dimensional and single issue? .... This must've been photoshopped I guess.

They were in the chamber until around 1 in the morning, talking about the impact brexit would have on the Scottish Economy. Every tory along with the vast majority of Labour MPs cleared out after the 3 government defeats.

I don't care how people try to dress it up any differently. Only one party is sticking up for Scotland and anybody who backs any of those other parties is not sticking up for Scotland.

[Fife-Hibee]

Priti Patel at it again


Check out @NicolaSturgeon’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1070982903482515456?s=09


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If only it was a bad joke. But they've done it before.

[Fife-Hibee]

UK blocks Scottish support for EU citizens' settled status fees

"The Scottish Government is committed to paying the fee for EU citizens working in our devolved public services.

"However, the UK Government will not allow third-party payments, thereby forcing EU citizens to pay it up-front."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17283505.uk-blocks-scottish-support-for-eu-citizens-settled-status-fees/

[Just Alf]

UK blocks Scottish support for EU citizens' settled status fees

"The Scottish Government is committed to paying the fee for EU citizens working in our devolved public services.

"However, the UK Government will not allow third-party payments, thereby forcing EU citizens to pay it up-front."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17283505.uk-blocks-scottish-support-for-eu-citizens-settled-status-fees/You can't make this stuff up, the Tories and their supporters go on and on, and on and on about if the Scottish Government feels a particular way about something then they should use the funds given to them by UK Government appropriately... Then when the Scottish government tries to they get stymied.

Politics eh!



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[Tornadoes70]

They were in the chamber until around 1 in the morning, talking about the impact brexit would have on the Scottish Economy. Every tory along with the vast majority of Labour MPs cleared out after the 3 government defeats.

I don't care how people try to dress it up any differently. Only one party is sticking up for Scotland and anybody who backs any of those other parties is not sticking up for Scotland.

Deary me!

That statement is right up there alongside equivalent ones made by the likes of the bnp and national front.

If you don't support the snp your'e anti scottish?

Wow!

Mon Labour!!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Deary me!

That statement is right up there alongside equivalent ones made by the likes of the bnp and national front.

If you don't support the snp your'e anti scottish?

Wow!

Mon Labour!!!

AARRRGGGHHH!! Apostrophe alert. See the standards of education in this wee country of ours.:whistle: :wink:

[ronaldo7]

You can't make this stuff up, the Tories and their supporters go on and on, and on and on about if the Scottish Government feels a particular way about something then they should use the funds given to them by UK Government appropriately... Then when the Scottish government tries to they get stymied.

Politics eh!



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It's absolutely disgusting, but normal for the Tories.

They really know no bounds when it comes to building hurdles for those who wish to make their way in our country. To even think of asking to pay to stay is appalling. They're even charging the bairns.

It's about time we decided to stop enforcing their laws on the people of Scotland.

How low can they go. Let's starve the Irish, where have I heard this before.

https://t.co/8zH1CYnroB

[Fife-Hibee]

Deary me!

That statement is right up there alongside equivalent ones made by the likes of the bnp and national front.

If you don't support the snp your'e anti scottish?

Wow!

Mon Labour!!!

If you vote for a party that actively works against Scotland, then what does that make you?

I take it that you'll be at the teachers strike? Despite the fact that teachers already get the best deal in the UK in Scotland and Labour voted down a Scottish budget increase with the tories at westminster to prevent an SNP Government from paying them more. :whistle:

[SHODAN]

My worry is I have been living in an echo chamber (the kind where my opinion makes perfect sense and everyone else is clearly mental to think otherwise). Some of the polling does not make good reading.

In a three way shoot off, Mays deal wins.

England is clearly mental.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ygeu2.jpg

That's mental. I thought the referendum would end up at the extremes of "remain" or "no deal".

[ronaldo7]

Deary me!

That statement is right up there alongside equivalent ones made by the likes of the bnp and national front.

If you don't support the snp your'e anti scottish?

Wow!

Mon Labour!!!

I see you've omitted the Scottish part of your strapline.

You've gone all Anglo again eh.:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

That's mental. I thought the referendum would end up at the extremes of "remain" or "no deal".

I haven't found the numbers for this poll yet. It's done in a slightly unusual way by giving 3 options and asking for a 1st and 2nd preference. Then they do the 3 head to head comparisons each time eliminating one of the options and redistributing its 2nd choices (hope that made sense). I suspect Remainers would be less likely to give a 2nd choice whereas Leavers might split between the 2 Leave options. I'll see if I can find the tables ...

Edit: It appears they only accepted responses where people ranked all 3 options which seems a bit strange.

The switchers between 1st ref vote and now are interesting. Most going Remain->Leave are Tory (by 2017 vote) whereas most going Leave->Remain are Labour. I guess Brexit is becoming seen as more of a Tory thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

I haven't found the numbers for this poll yet. It's done in a slightly unusual way by giving 3 options and asking for a 1st and 2nd preference. Then they do the 3 head to head comparisons each time eliminating one of the options and redistributing its 2nd choices (hope that made sense). I suspect Remainers would be less likely to give a 2nd choice whereas Leavers might split between the 2 Leave options. I'll see if I can find the tables ...

Guess it comes from this

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/24pikzv1u7/Ben%20Lauderdale%20Brexit%20deal%20MRP%20report.pd f


A lot to read

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-

[Fife-Hibee]

I wouldn't trust that yougov poll. Support for May's deal has stuck around 25%. It's less popular than no-deal. So either it's fake, or it's been pieced together on the orders of downing street.

[JeMeSouviens]

Direction of travel in Yougov's "In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" tracker is pretty clear:

http://image.assets.pressassociation.io/v2/image/production/f27547a84864340be4447e6476168f09Y29udGVudHNlYXJjaC wxNTQ0MTE3MDAy/2.40059592.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

I wouldn't trust that yougov poll. Support for May's deal has stuck around 25%. It's less popular than no-deal. So either it's fake, or it's been pieced together on the orders of downing street.

Take your tinfoil hat to another thread. :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

Guess it comes from this

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/24pikzv1u7/Ben%20Lauderdale%20Brexit%20deal%20MRP%20report.pd f

Yep, that's what I found. Doesn't have DK/refused to say numbers and was done in a somewhat unusual way (drag and drop the responses) so I'd take with a pinch of salt.

[Fife-Hibee]

Take your tinfoil hat to another thread. :na na:

It suggests that not a single constituency in England favours a no-deal brexit. With all due respect, that is complete and utter nonsense. :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

It suggests that not a single constituency in England favours a no-deal brexit. With all due respect, that is complete and utter nonsense. :wink:

No it says on a shootout, the no deal answer is eliminated.

J

[Tornadoes70]

If you vote for a party that actively works against Scotland, then what does that make you?

I take it that you'll be at the teachers strike? Despite the fact that teachers already get the best deal in the UK in Scotland and Labour voted down a Scottish budget increase with the tories at westminster to prevent an SNP Government from paying them more. :whistle:

Not only have you stated that supporting anyone other than the snp is anti Scottish you're additionally stating Scottish teachers are conspiring against the snp!

Crazy maybe?

I'd state definitely!

https://goo.gl/images/zBHFwh


https://goo.gl/images/zBHFwh

[Smartie]

Direction of travel in Yougov's "In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" tracker is pretty clear:

http://image.assets.pressassociation.io/v2/image/production/f27547a84864340be4447e6476168f09Y29udGVudHNlYXJjaC wxNTQ0MTE3MDAy/2.40059592.jpg

I'm no fan of Brexit, but is this not one of the occasions where you have to question the way a particular statistic is illustrated?

That y axis...........

If, as a percentage, that went from 0-100 then it would look a bit less spectacular.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not only have you stated that supporting anyone other than the snp is anti Scottish you're additionally stating Scottish teachers are conspiring against the snp!

Crazy maybe?

I'd state definitely!

https://goo.gl/images/zBHFwh


https://goo.gl/images/zBHFwh

A
Realy
Stupid
Example

Mon ABSNP

[lord bunberry]

Why do they keep calling a second referendum a people’s vote? It just seems like another way making a certain position more popular than it is. Politicians really get on my nerves at times.

[lord bunberry]

A
Realy
Stupid
Example

Mon ABSNP
I’ve got him on ignore so I didn’t see the post you quoted, but I agree wholeheartedly with your reply. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Not only have you stated that supporting anyone other than the snp is anti Scottish you're additionally stating Scottish teachers are conspiring against the snp!

Crazy maybe?

I'd state definitely!

Teachers want better pay and rightfully so. However, they're pointing the finger at the wrong government. Considering our governments budget is hugely dependant on what is being spent south of the border.

What you should be asking yourselves is. If the teachers already get a better deal in Scotland, then why is it that Labour are only pressing the teachers unions in Scotland to strike, but not south of the border?

It's almost as if they have a.................. political agenda. :cb

[Tornadoes70]

I’ve got him on ignore so I didn’t see the post you quoted, but I agree wholeheartedly with your reply. :greengrin

Lord snooty's got me on ignore :greengrin

Mon Labour!!!

[Tornadoes70]

Teachers want better pay and rightfully so. However, they're pointing the finger at the wrong government. Considering our governments budget is hugely dependant on what is being spent south of the border.

What you should be asking yourselves is. If the teachers already get a better deal in Scotland, then why is it that Labour are only pressing the teachers unions in Scotland to strike, but not south of the border?

It's almost as if they have a.................. political agenda. :cb

Yeah right, everything and everybody's conspiring against the snp :faf:

[Fife-Hibee]

Yeah right, everything and everybody's conspiring against the snp :faf:

It's called politics. If you didn't realize that political parties conspire against other political parties for their own objectives, then perhaps you should take up something that requires less thought process. Fishing perhaps?

[Tornadoes70]

It's called politics. If you didn't realize that political parties conspire against other political parties for their own objectives, then perhaps you should take up something that requires less thought process. Fishing perhaps?

Calling folk who don't support the snp as 'anti Scottish' isn't politics and calling teachers who legitimately call for strike action as conspirators against the snp is simply paranoia. I'm not offended as you're obviously speaking emotively and in an uncontrolled manner.

However, you don't do your cause any favours whatsoever in spouting such nonsense.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm no fan of Brexit, but is this not one of the occasions where you have to question the way a particular statistic is illustrated?

That y axis...........

If, as a percentage, that went from 0-100 then it would look a bit less spectacular.

Nah, it's clearly labelled. If all axes on graphs had to start at zero, how mental would the chart of FTSE100 performance look? You'd have more than 2000 years of nothing at all then a wee thin squashed line on the very right hand side.


Why do they keep calling a second referendum a people’s vote? It just seems like another way making a certain position more popular than it is. Politicians really get on my nerves at times.

Think it might have been Tony Bla who started that with the People's Princess p*sh.

[Fife-Hibee]

Calling folk who don't support the snp as 'anti Scottish' isn't politics and calling teachers who legitimately call for strike action as conspirators against the snp is simply paranoia. I'm not offended as you're obviously speaking emotively and in an uncontrolled manner.

However, you don't do your cause any favours whatsoever in spouting such nonsense.

Some teachers called for strike action, Labour then twisted the arm of the teachers union in Scotland to press for strike. An even higher percentage of teachers south of the border called for strike action and it fell on deaf ears.

Using the teachers as pawns is an utterly disgusting tactic, considering Labour in government in Scotland would run into the same problem themselves, as they would have to turn to the tory UK government to ask for additional funding, only to be turned down as well.

I'm not too concerned about trying to convince people such as yourself. I've learnt to spot a lost cause whenever I come across one. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Just one last thing to add. If Labour care so much about how much teachers are getting paid. Then how is it that teachers get a better pay deal in Scotland under the SNP than they do in Wales under Labour?

[Tornadoes70]

Some teachers called for strike action, Labour then twisted the arm of the teachers union in Scotland to press for strike. An even higher percentage of teachers south of the border called for strike action and it fell on deaf ears.

Using the teachers as pawns is an utterly disgusting tactic, considering Labour in government in Scotland would run into the same problem themselves, as they would have to turn to the tory UK government to ask for additional funding, only to be turned down as well.

I'm not too concerned about trying to convince people such as yourself. I've learnt to spot a lost cause whenever I come across one. :greengrin

Have you any actual concrete proof of this?

[Fife-Hibee]

Have you any actual concrete proof of this?

Hmm, perhaps the fact that it's only happening in Scotland, where teachers get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK? :wink:

[Tornadoes70]

Hmm, perhaps the fact that it's only happening in Scotland, where teachers get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK? :wink:

Mindless speculative paranoia then.

:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Hmm, perhaps the fact that it's only happening in Scotland, where teachers get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK? :wink:

Apart from the fact that Corbyn is trying his best in England too?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2018/nov/21/teaching-union-leader-calls-members-vote-strike

You appear to see the world as large homogenous groups that you label and then attach a narrative to.

Here it’s Scottish teachers collectively having their arms twisted in a cunning plot where they are but pawns.


Anyway back on topic I see Corbyn is now offering to personally save Brexit by avoiding an election and getting a new deal!

It’s amazing to watch both the leader of the government and the opposition both wanting to achieve the same thing but both failing miserably to achieve it [emoji23]

[Fife-Hibee]

Apart from the fact that Corbyn is trying his best in England too?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2018/nov/21/teaching-union-leader-calls-members-vote-strike

Why not Wales though? :hmmm:

[Moulin Yarns]

Mindless speculative paranoia then.

:greengrin

Says the mindless speculative paranoid Labour android.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

However, you don't do your cause any favours whatsoever in spouting such nonsense.

Well, that's a tad ironic.

[RyeSloan]

Why not Wales though? :hmmm:

Aha so when given evidence that your ‘only in Scotland’ narrative was bollocks you ignore that and swiftly move to a ‘why not Wales’ one.

Which alas also doesn’t work because setting teachers wages will not be devolved to Wales until Q3 2019.

[danhibees1875]

Why not Wales though? :hmmm:

Sorry if I've missed something, but how was the protest political? Was it not the EIS, driven by their members, who decided to protest?

The members overwhelmingly rejected the proposed pay increase, I don't see how any political party could have influenced that? :confused:

[McD]

Says the mindless speculative paranoid Labour android.


Well, that's a tad ironic.


Mindless speculative paranoia then.

:greengrin


:agree::greengrin

But it’s entertaining watching 2 folk peddling their own opposing speculative patter, both refusing to accept evidence against their points

[Fife-Hibee]

:agree::greengrin

But it’s entertaining watching 2 folk peddling their own opposing speculative patter, both refusing to accept evidence against their points

Here is the evidence mate:

England and Wales teachers pay scale - https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/e2c3ba3f-20f3-410c-ae4b83329cbe3e4a.pdf

Scotland teachers pay scale (before the proposed increase) - https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/61ef278b-c5a0-4a55-b834e9ead0fd3912.pdf

Always happy to help. :wink:

[McD]

Here is the evidence mate:

England and Wales teachers pay scale - https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/e2c3ba3f-20f3-410c-ae4b83329cbe3e4a.pdf

Scotland teachers pay scale (before the proposed increase) - https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/61ef278b-c5a0-4a55-b834e9ead0fd3912.pdf

Always happy to help. :wink:


Firstly, you’ve misunderstood what I said - I said you didn’t accept evidence AGAINST your point. You’ve (according to you) provided evidence FOR your point. always happy to help :wink:

secondly, what you’ve provided is proof that Scottish teachers are paid more than their counterparts in England and Wales. No one has disputed that with you. What you claimed, without any evidence, is that politicians manipulated the situation around strikes etc. When that was challenged by a number of posters, you then changed your claim to something different, as has also been called out.

[Saturday Boy]

I’m just getting back up to speed with this thread after the O2 debacle. I refuse to use the word “outage”

I almost wish I hadn’t.

I thought that I was posting ****, but at least I thought I was being mildly humorous.

It must be an age thing. Apologies if that opens another can of worms 😄

[JeMeSouviens]

BMG poll in independent today:

Remain 52
Leave 40

That’s 56-44 ex DK. Mon tae **** Jezza!

[Newry Hibs]

BMG poll in independent today:

Remain 52
Leave 40

That’s 56-44 ex DK. Mon tae **** Jezza!
Because polls are always rught


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

[Fife-Hibee]

Mon tae **** Jezza!

You're joking right? :greengrin

[Callum_62]

The UK can unilaterally cancel BREXIT rules the ECJ

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

[GlesgaeHibby]

The UK can unilaterally cancel BREXIT rules the ECJ

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

Good news, as expected. The question now is what next? Another referendum with Remain or May's deal as the options? General Election? May delaying tomorrow's vote at the 11th hour? It's going to be an interesting week!

[Hibrandenburg]

Good news, as expected. The question now is what next? Another referendum with Remain or May's deal as the options? General Election? May delaying tomorrow's vote at the 11th hour? It's going to be an interesting week!

May would more than likely wish for a vote either on her deal or a no deal. The government would have to do a lot of backtracking to put remain back on the menu although I still believe that remain is still the likeliest outcome, but it won't be May's government that brings that about.

[JeMeSouviens]

The journalist twittersphere alive with speculation the vote is about to be pulled. Well, I never, a Brexit delay so the Tories can argue among themselves? What an astonishing turnip for the books. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

The standard of debate has been cranked up by that brilliant bit of Andy Serkis satire that's currently winning the internet. Savage.

[lapsedhibee]

The question now is what next? Another referendum with Remain or May's deal as the options?

Four options please, with STV:
Remain
May's deal
No deal
Whatever it is that young people don't want

[Callum_62]

The journalist twittersphere alive with speculation the vote is about to be pulled. Well, I never, a Brexit delay so the Tories can argue among themselves? What an astonishing turnip for the books. :rolleyes:

Surely to christ not

Another shambles if its pulled


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Surely to christ not

Another shambles if its pulled


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A Times journo tweets:


"Jesus, you hear people say the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing," says a senior government source. "The right hand doesn't even seem to know what the right hand is doing."

May to make statement at 3.30, vote expected to be pulled.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072100705203351553?s=19

[stokesmessiah]

Looks like she has pulled it - what a complete and utter cluster f*** !

[Callum_62]

Whats pulling the vote actually achieving?

Except avoiding a humiliating defeat

It makes May, again, look an absolute Buffoon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GlesgaeHibby]

Whats pulling the vote actually achieving?

Except avoiding a humiliating defeat

It makes May, again, look an absolute Buffoon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She's surely toast now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

resign May for the love of god

[Callum_62]

Shes swapping one form of humiliation for another

Can see Boris stepping forward now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/CommonsLeader/status/1072101585227038720?s=19

Popcorn time

[cabbageandribs1875]

postponing a vote just so she could fill in her strictly come dancing application is utterly ridiculous