Brexit - what will happen next

[Beefster]

The Tories would have to be driving the country to a cliff at the one time in the last 30 odd years that we don’t have a coherent opposition. Absolute ****s, the lot of them.

[JeMeSouviens]

May on telly now - doubling down, blaming EU, still doesn't understand what *she signed up to* last December. ****** muppetry in spades.

[Chic Murray]

Or a consequence of us not pulling together to get the best deal possible. The rest of Europe is in a far stronger position given we are all fighting amongst ourselves.

Who's fighting amongst themselves?

[Callum_62]

Who's fighting amongst themselves?

The UK Gov.


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[ronaldo7]

May on telly now - doubling down, blaming EU, still doesn't understand what *she signed up to* last December. ****** muppetry in spades.

I'm sure she'll get the Muppets following her to the cliff edge though.

Cringeworthy statement, trying to make it look like the bad old EU boys are bullying her.

[Hibbyradge]

I wish this wasn't so important and that I wasn't so concerned, because it would be a hoot watching the car crash that is Brexit.

This short article from the New Statesman has left me shaking my head.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/09/theresa-may-s-bizarre-speech-leaves-united-kingdom-verge-no-deal-brexit

[ronaldo7]

Every time she opens her gob, the pound takes a nosedive. Just imagine where it's going on a no deal.

[Callum_62]

Every time she opens her gob, the pound takes a nosedive. Just imagine where it's going on a no deal.

Great for my overseas wedding next year

No doubt it will by everyones fault but theres

Absolute ****s


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[heretoday]

Project fear etc.

I'm still to hear a compelling good reason for coming out of the EU.

More fruit-picking jobs available?

[Hibrandenburg]

May on telly now - doubling down, blaming EU, still doesn't understand what *she signed up to* last December. ****** muppetry in spades.

We’re either in, or we’re out. That’s what the EU have been saying consistently for the last 2.5 years. So naturally, every half baked “half in, half out” fantasy that we float across the negotiating table is met with a polite, but increasingly frustrated shake of the head by the Europeans.
If we don’t want to be in the customs union and the single market then there has to be a border in Ireland.
Why do they find it impossible to acknowledge and state the bloody obvious?

[ballengeich]

When a referendum doesn't give the result wanted by a country's rulers, the EU tradition is to inform the electorate that they've failed the exam and offer a resit around 18 months later, so I had expected Cameron to conduct some negotiations, come back with a few concessions and repeat the referendum.

May's statement that "Brexit means brexit" was meaningless as it's clear that there is a variety of possible future relationships. Triggering article 50 should only have been done once the government had come to an agreement among themselves about what kind of future relationship they wanted. In the current shambles, could postponing the exit date, possibly indefinitely, be the most practical action?

[JeMeSouviens]

We’re either in, or we’re out. That’s what the EU have been saying consistently for the last 2.5 years. So naturally, every half baked “half in, half out” fantasy that we float across the negotiating table is met with a polite, but increasingly frustrated shake of the head by the Europeans.
If we don’t want to be in the customs union and the single market then there has to be a border in Ireland.
Why do they find it impossible to acknowledge and state the bloody obvious?

But there can't be a border in Ireland without breaching the GFA (aiui) and also because Ireland has a veto on any future trade agreement.

The choices are (and have been for many months):

- No deal
- Canada but with border in Irish Sea
- Norway
- Call the whole bloody farce off and remain

Last one good for me!

[Just Alf]

But there can't be a border in Ireland without breaching the GFA (aiui) and also because Ireland has a veto on any future trade agreement.

The choices are (and have been for many months):

- No deal
- Canada but with border in Irish Sea
- Norway
- Call the whole bloody farce off and remain

Last one good for me!That Ireland veto thing always annoys me... Folks often use the argument that an independant Scotland would have less clout in the EU, but there we have a clear case that the opposite is true. In fact a Belgian region had more clout than Scotland by having a veto on the EU - Canada trade deal while we had no say at all... A bit like the GM crop negotiations when 3 of the 4 UK countries stated they didn't want them, the English MP representing us of course voted FOR allowing GM crops in Europe.... Ah well...

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But there can't be a border in Ireland without breaching the GFA (aiui) and also because Ireland has a veto on any future trade agreement.

The choices are (and have been for many months):

- No deal
- Canada but with border in Irish Sea
- Norway
- Call the whole bloody farce off and remain

Last one good for me!

I'm no fan of Brexit, but given we are where we are, I don't see what else May can do. No British PM can accept the EU carving up the UK (or being perceived to be). It's never going to be acceptable, never mind the fact that the dup can bring the whole govt down.

I think she has to now double down on it, and look to walk away with a no deal. The UK can say that we won't impose a hard border in Ireland, and if the republic chooses to, then that's their call - they are choosing the EU over their northern Irish neighbours.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we weren't here, but given that we are and the intransigence on both sides, it's hard to see a way out.

However, European negotiations have a history of rescuing negotiations from apparently impossible situations. But it doesn't look like anyone is preparing to blink!

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm no fan of Brexit, but given we are where we are, I don't see what else May can do. No British PM can accept the EU carving up the UK (or being perceived to be). It's never going to be acceptable, never mind the fact that the dup can bring the whole govt down.

I think she has to now double down on it, and look to walk away with a no deal. The UK can say that we won't impose a hard border in Ireland, and if the republic chooses to, then that's their call - they are choosing the EU over their northern Irish neighbours.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we weren't here, but given that we are and the intransigence on both sides, it's hard to see a way out.

However, European negotiations have a history of rescuing negotiations from apparently impossible situations. But it doesn't look like anyone is preparing to blink!

We're here where we are because the Tories have refused to accept the rules of the EU are non negotiable. The EU have never moved from that position and why should they? If the EU compromise their ground principles for the UK then the EU is dead as a union. If the UK wants to leave the EU then it should go without expecting to eat their cake and have it.

[Smartie]

We're here where we are because the Tories have refused to accept the rules of the EU are non negotiable. The EU have never moved from that position and why should they? If the EU compromise their ground principles for the UK then the EU is dead as a union. If the UK wants to leave the EU then it should go without expecting to eat their cake and have it.

Manhunt Unabomber is good, eh?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We're here where we are because the Tories have refused to accept the rules of the EU are non negotiable. The EU have never moved from that position and why should they? If the EU compromise their ground principles for the UK then the EU is dead as a union. If the UK wants to leave the EU then it should go without expecting to eat their cake and have it.

We are here because it's what people voted for, millions of whom are not Tories.

I agree though, we should just leave with no deal, if one can't be agreed within both sides red lines (which it seems we cant).

[Hibrandenburg]

Manhunt Unabomber is good, eh?

:greengrin Loved it :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I'm no fan of Brexit, but given we are where we are, I don't see what else May can do. No British PM can accept the EU carving up the UK (or being perceived to be). It's never going to be acceptable, never mind the fact that the dup can bring the whole govt down.

I think she has to now double down on it, and look to walk away with a no deal. The UK can say that we won't impose a hard border in Ireland, and if the republic chooses to, then that's their call - they are choosing the EU over their northern Irish neighbours.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we weren't here, but given that we are and the intransigence on both sides, it's hard to see a way out.

However, European negotiations have a history of rescuing negotiations from apparently impossible situations. But it doesn't look like anyone is preparing to blink!

Keeping control of our borders is one of the key principles of the leave campaign. The UK government can't just leave NI open to the EU.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm no fan of Brexit, but given we are where we are, I don't see what else May can do. No British PM can accept the EU carving up the UK (or being perceived to be). It's never going to be acceptable, never mind the fact that the dup can bring the whole govt down.

I think she has to now double down on it, and look to walk away with a no deal. The UK can say that we won't impose a hard border in Ireland, and if the republic chooses to, then that's their call - they are choosing the EU over their northern Irish neighbours.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we weren't here, but given that we are and the intransigence on both sides, it's hard to see a way out.

However, European negotiations have a history of rescuing negotiations from apparently impossible situations. But it doesn't look like anyone is preparing to blink!

Its too late now for me to articulate this properly but I think I agree, but I think May knew what was coming and is playing it as best she can (which is a complex agenda in itself), despite how ridiculous that sounds.

It feels like a chess game, where you know you are being defeated around ten moves away. You can go for a quick sacrifice or you can prolong it to the very last move before succumbing to the inevitable.

I think she knew she was ten moves away and has chosen to drag it out. I think this is on the basis that her chess game isn’t against one opponent but two, namely the EU and the Brexiteers.

My sense is that the EU have played a blinder on Europe. Making the Irish border the keystone issue brings in UK sovereignty over NI and the the DUP fear it’s a backdrop to 32 counties into play. That’s unwinnable for her.

Best guess is a collapse of government before the end date, the EU kindly allow a delay in exit (which they would) and a new GE.

The idealist in me hopes that we could get some sort of plebiscite around staying in, regardless of party. People never thought we could have a coalition government as we had got so used to two-party, first past the post politics but in truth, British history isn’t short of fudges and compromises when push comes to shove.

What that means post not-Brexit, who knows?

[JeMeSouviens]

Its too late now for me to articulate this properly but I think I agree, but I think May knew what was coming and is playing it as best she can (which is a complex agenda in itself), despite how ridiculous that sounds.

It feels like a chess game, where you know you are being defeated around ten moves away. You can go for a quick sacrifice or you can prolong it to the very last move before succumbing to the inevitable.

I think she knew she was ten moves away and has chosen to drag it out. I think this is on the basis that her chess game isn’t against one opponent but two, namely the EU and the Brexiteers.

My sense is that the EU have played a blinder on Europe. Making the Irish border the keystone issue brings in UK sovereignty over NI and the the DUP fear it’s a backdrop to 32 counties into play. That’s unwinnable for her.

Best guess is a collapse of government before the end date, the EU kindly allow a delay in exit (which they would) and a new GE.

The idealist in me hopes that we could get some sort of plebiscite around staying in, regardless of party. People never thought we could have a coalition government as we had got so used to two-party, first past the post politics but in truth, British history isn’t short of fudges and compromises when push comes to shove.

What that means post not-Brexit, who knows?

On the chess thing, the Germans have a word for it. “Zugzwang” - being compelled to move even though you know it's detrimental.

Learning that is the only good brexit thing that’s happened to me this week.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm no fan of Brexit, but given we are where we are, I don't see what else May can do. No British PM can accept the EU carving up the UK (or being perceived to be). It's never going to be acceptable, never mind the fact that the dup can bring the whole govt down.

I think she has to now double down on it, and look to walk away with a no deal. The UK can say that we won't impose a hard border in Ireland, and if the republic chooses to, then that's their call - they are choosing the EU over their northern Irish neighbours.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we weren't here, but given that we are and the intransigence on both sides, it's hard to see a way out.

However, European negotiations have a history of rescuing negotiations from apparently impossible situations. But it doesn't look like anyone is preparing to blink!

If you think May has done well with this, you haven’t been paying attention.

She’s had a weak hand and played it extremely badly.

[Smartie]

If you think May has done well with this, you haven’t been paying attention.

She’s had a weak hand and played it extremely badly.

Her biggest mistake was accepting that hand when it was offered. Since then it has been inevitable mistake after inevitable mistake.

I would feel sorry for her, only she knew what she was getting into, hubris prevented her from declining the opportunity.

To be honest I've warmed a bit more to her lately, but I think that's more to do with the dancing like a teacher at a school disco than anything she's done politically.

[matty_f]

Keeping control of our borders is one of the key principles of the leave campaign. The UK government can't just leave NI open to the EU.

The leave campaigners were not in a position to make post-Brexit promises or policies though, they weren't elected or in policy making positions in the government to do so.

The infamous NHS bus is a prime example - we'll save all this money and put it in to the NHS... how can they make that promise when they've no mandate to do so. Even winning the referendum didn't give them a mandate to dictate the post-brexit landscape, which is another reason for the mess that May finds herself in.

The information video the Tories put out about the Chequers deal mentioned that not having control of our borders was against the Brexit that people voted for so was out of the question for any deal - the Brexit vote had no other question that leave or remain, there was no type of Brexit mentioned, so how's she decided that the border was the fundamental part that people voted for.

The whole thing is a mess, a shambles. It should be stopped for the good of the country and if need be let people vote again but this time with a better understanding of the impact and consequences of Brexit.

If people still want to vote leave they can still do so, but at least we'd know what we were getting into this time.

Taking about a second vote being undemocratic is ****ing ludicrous. Not having the vote in these circumstances is undemocratic. Another vote is the most democratic thing they could do.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you think May has done well with this, you haven’t been paying attention.

She’s had a weak hand and played it extremely badly.

I don't think she's done well at all! But I'm not sure Blair for example would have got a different outcome. They may have had it packaged better, but no British PM could agree to carving up their country at the behest of Brussels, and that's if it even is compatible with the GFA.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't get all the discussion about what Brexit means. The vote was to leave the EU or not leave the EU. A straight black or white vote. There was no halfway house on offer and the Tories have now spent the last 2 years trying to invent one. The EU have also been clear on the terms, first the divorce settlement then we can talk about how life continues afterwards. Instead of talking about how we're gonna share the family car we should first decide who has ownership of it and then negotiate how it's used. We've spent 2 years renegotiating the rules of the game instead of just following them to play the game. Let's just pay what we owe, take back what's ours and then talk about how we can work together with what we have.

[bawheid]

The leave campaigners were not in a position to make post-Brexit promises or policies though, they weren't elected or in policy making positions in the government to do so.

The infamous NHS bus is a prime example - we'll save all this money and put it in to the NHS... how can they make that promise when they've no mandate to do so. Even winning the referendum didn't give them a mandate to dictate the post-brexit landscape, which is another reason for the Jess that May finds herself in.

The information video the Tories put out about the Chequers deal mentioned that not having control of our borders was against the Brexit that people voted for so was out of the question for any deal - the Brexit vote had no other question that leave or remain, there was no type of Brexit mentioned, so how's she decided that the border was the fundamental part that people voted for.

The whole thing is a mess, a shambles. It should be stopped for the good of the country and if need be let people vote again but this time with a better understanding of the impact and consequences of Brexit.

If people still want to vote leave they can still do so, but at least we'd know what we were getting into this time.

Taking about a second vote being undemocratic is ****ing ludicrous. Not having the vote in these circumstances is undemocratic. Another vote is the most democratic thing they could do.

Spot on, and I think as the shambles continues to play out the clamour for a second vote will grow to the point that it will become inevitable.

May is even more of a busted flush than she was on the day after the last GE and I didn’t think that was possible. There’s actually no point to her other than the fact that nobody in the Tory party wants to replace her until they can be perceived as having ridden in to save the day. Only once the whole thing has fallen apart (no deal) will she be thrown to the dogs. History will remember her and Cameron as two of the most damaging Prime Ministers the UK has ever had.

The real problem for the UK is that not only are the government of the day completely inept, the opposition are just as bad. A shambles, as you say.

[matty_f]

Spot on, and I think as the shambles continues to play out the clamour for a second vote will grow to the point that it will become inevitable.

May is even more of a busted flush than she was on the day after the last GE and I didn’t think that was possible. There’s actually no point to her other than the fact that nobody in the Tory party wants to replace her until they can be perceived as having ridden in to save the day. Only once the whole thing has fallen apart (no deal) will she be thrown to the dogs. History will remember her and Cameron as two of the most damaging Prime Ministers the UK has ever had.

The real problem for the UK is that not only are the government of the day completely inept, the opposition are just as bad. A shambles, as you say.

IIRC, May backed remain as well, which makes her position even more ludicrous. It also really harms the chances of a second vote because she would have to back remain again, surely, having seen close up the state of brexit.

[grunt]

IIRC, May backed remain as well, which makes her position even more ludicrous. It also really harms the chances of a second vote because she would have to back remain again, surely, having seen close up the state of brexit.
This is the fundamental problem with Brexit. Everyone with an ounce of political awareness about how international relations, trade, the economy work, recognises that Brexit is a monumentally stupid act of self harm.

The correct thing for May (and Cameron before her) to have done on finding the result of the referendum, was to say, well that's interesting, let's find out why the Leavers feel that way.

Leaving the EU is a stupid thing to do. It's no wonder May is struggling with it.

[Jack]

I don't think she's done well at all! But I'm not sure Blair for example would have got a different outcome. They may have had it packaged better, but no British PM could agree to carving up their country at the behest of Brussels, and that's if it even is compatible with the GFA.

If you actually mean Blair I doubt he, or any Labour government, would have been stupid enough to call a referendum in the first place.

[Hibrandenburg]

IIRC, May backed remain as well, which makes her position even more ludicrous. It also really harms the chances of a second vote because she would have to back remain again, surely, having seen close up the state of brexit.

A 2nd referendum would either confirm the 1st or instigate violence that has not been seen on these islands for centuries.

[grunt]

A 2nd referendum would either confirm the 1st or instigate violence that has not been seen on these islands for centuries.Is that a threat?

[Hibrandenburg]

Is that a threat?

Certainly not from me. The far right are already in meltdown because of their perceived Brexit betrayal. A 2nd vote in favour of remain would see their numbers increase tenfold and push them over the edge.

[CropleyWasGod]

A 2nd referendum would either confirm the 1st or instigate violence that has not been seen on these islands for centuries.Seriously?

That's the kind of talk that got us into this mess.

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[grunt]

Certainly not from me. The far right are already in meltdown because of their perceived Brexit betrayal. A 2nd vote in favour of remain would see their numbers increase tenfold and push them over the edge.I don't think so. the noise from the far right is much louder because there's so few of them.

You hear on the radio and tv that reporters say, "we've spoken to people in the street, leavers and remainers, and they just want the Govt to get on with it". This is rubbish and probably a lie. No remainer that I know wants to get on with it, and plenty leavers of my acquaintance regret their vote and want it all to stop.

And sorry - I never meant to imply that you were making a threat.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you actually mean Blair I doubt he, or any Labour government, would have been stupid enough to call a referendum in the first place.

Agreed. But it wasn't may who did it either.

[ronaldo7]

This is the fundamental problem with Brexit. Everyone with an ounce of political awareness about how international relations, trade, the economy work, recognises that Brexit is a monumentally stupid act of self harm.

The correct thing for May (and Cameron before her) to have done on finding the result of the referendum, was to say, well that's interesting, let's find out why the Leavers feel that way.

Leaving the EU is a stupid thing to do. It's no wonder May is struggling with it.

She continues down the road to the cliff edge, after all of the indications from her governments own figures show Brexit will harm the UK, with Scotland coming out very badly.

Some on here think she's doing a grand job too.

Take a look at the papers today, and you'll see why some are still spoon fed British imperialism. #EU rats

[jacomo]

If you think May has done well with this, you haven’t been paying attention.

She’s had a weak hand and played it extremely badly.


:agree:

If your opponent knows your hand then trying to bluff is laughably stupid.

[Hibrandenburg]

Seriously?

That's the kind of talk that got us into this mess.

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IMO not talking about it would be the most dangerous course of inaction. I might be having a tinfoil hat moment but the rise of the international extreme right and their new found solidarity with each other and organised communication network poses a very real threat to the western world's stability. At present they are receiving financial and moral support from Moscow, once they've gained enough political clout it's not unrealistic to think that the Kremlin would have no qualms in arming them.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think so. the noise from the far right is much louder because there's so few of them.

You hear on the radio and tv that reporters say, "we've spoken to people in the street, leavers and remainers, and they just want the Govt to get on with it". This is rubbish and probably a lie. No remainer that I know wants to get on with it, and plenty leavers of my acquaintance regret their vote and want it all to stop.

And sorry - I never meant to imply that you were making a threat.

No problem. I've just got in from work and have seen that nasty wee ***** Farage is back whipping up the hate talk again and it's getting lapped up by the xenophobic masses. The speeches at the Brexit supporters rally tonight are again filled with hate inspiring soundbites like betrayal and traitors. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, (even Godwin has now said that his law is no longer relevant in today's political climate) the parallels with 1930s Europe and initially small extreme right parties are becoming ever harder to ignore.

[JeMeSouviens]

"Nobody is ruling out remain", says Keir Starmer, shadow Brexit secretary, the day after John McDonnell, shadow chancellor, ruled it out. :confused:

Still, encouraging signs that Labour might get there in the end. I think?

[Mr Grieves]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/26/uk-appoints-food-supplies-minister-amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit?__twitter_impression=true

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

:rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/26/uk-appoints-food-supplies-minister-amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit?__twitter_impression=true

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

:rolleyes:

Wouldnt harm uk holidaymakers - would destroy uk based airlines

Either way absolutely ridiculous that we are even talking about the above in this day and age

Government and British politics in general is a joke


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Wouldnt harm uk holidaymakers - would destroy uk based airlines

Either way absolutely ridiculous that we are even talking about the above in this day and age

Government and British politics in general is a joke


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Why is british politics more of a joke than anywhere else?

You have a far right party the second largest party in Germany, a weird populist alliance in Italy, some fairly right wing authoritarian types in Poland and Hungary. A far right guy nearly won the Austrian presidency, made big gains in Sweden recently. Sitting above all of this are unelected bureaucrats with enormous power and influence.

The US has trump. Much of Latin America still lurches from crisis to corrupt crisis, Greece remains in special measures, Turkey is run by an Islamist, Australia can't keep a leader for two minutes without their own party getting rid of them.

The UK has it's problems, god knows, but we are hardly unique in that, nor are we the worst.

[Callum_62]

Right wing/left wing is just political preference

The way politics is played out here in what is essentially fanzines is ridiculous

You dont think the eu ref was a joke with no accountability what so ever?

Mind im comparing it to a country that generally has sensible views of itself and the wider world


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[Hibrandenburg]

Why is british politics more of a joke than anywhere else?

You have a far right party the second largest party in Germany

Ahem.....Fake News.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Right wing/left wing is just political preference

The way politics is played out here in what is essentially fanzines is ridiculous

You dont think the eu ref was a joke with no accountability what so ever?

Mind im comparing it to a country that generally has sensible views of itself and the wider world


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I think there are definitely issues about the way politics is played out at tye moment, particularly digital marketing which I don't think either the electorate or the regulators have got to grips with yet.

So the lack of accountability for the way that campaigns are run, possibly yes. But no accountability, it was a direct democratic vote, the accountability lies with us as the electorate.

Fanzines? We have freedom of the press, it is open and transparent. You are comparing with NZ, is that right? Well I would guess that NZ has as many nutjobs as the UK proportionally, but in a country of 5m they don't have the critical mass that they will in a country of over 60m. So there is a greater plurality of media in the UK than in smaller countries without the population to support as many outlets.

But I doubt that politics is any less crazily conducted in other countries- the US? Europe? I genuinely don't know?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ahem.....Fake News.

My mistake, you are right - 3rd biggest but official opposition?

[Hibrandenburg]

My mistake, you are right - 3rd biggest but official opposition?

Kinda wrong again. Any party in Germany that has seats in the parliament and are not in government belong to the official opposition. So the AfD along with the Greens, FDP, die Linke and a few other parties all form the official opposition making the AfD a minority in the opposition.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Kinda wrong again. Any party in Germany that has seats in the parliament and are not in government belong to the official opposition. So the AfD along with the Greens, FDP, die Linke and a few other parties all form the official opposition making the AfD a minority in the opposition.

😁

Biggest opposition party then ?!

[Callum_62]

So the lack of accountability for the way that campaigns are run, possibly yes. But no accountability, it was a direct democratic vote, the accountability lies with us as the electorate.

Fanzines? We have freedom of the press, it is open and transparent. You are comparing with NZ, is that right? Well I would guess that NZ has as many nutjobs as the UK proportionally, but in a country of 5m they don't have the critical mass that they will in a country of over 60m. So there is a greater plurality of media in the UK than in smaller countries without the population to support as many

The accountability should lie with the politicians who who outright lied - Farage immediately backtracking the morning of the win on the now infamous bus

The zero mention of the billions of pounds of “divorce fee”

The electorate should be given hard facts and chose from there - not this double speak ducking and diving ir downright lies we get - with no consequences whatsoever

You really think you call the mail, express etc open and transparent?

Ofcourse its fanzines - they are wildly skewed opinion pieces


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The accountability should lie with the politicians who who outright lied - Farage immediately backtracking the morning of the win on the now infamous bus

The zero mention of the billions of pounds of “divorce fee”

The electorate should be given hard facts and chose from there - not this double speak ducking and diving ir downright lies we get - with no consequences whatsoever

You really think you call the mail, express etc open and transparent?

Ofcourse its fanzines - they are wildly skewed opinion pieces


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Yes, they are open and transparent about their political positions - they aren't tricking anyone, and nobody is forced to read them.

I think that 'give the people facts' line is a total cop out.

I'm sorry, but there rarely are objective facts, unfortunately democracy requires critical faculties, it requires people to make up their minds about difficult, complex issues about which there are rarely black and white answers. It's why politics is difficult, often you are choosing a least bad option.

The bus line is not a lie. It was a spectacularly over the top campaign line - but it could still be true. You want objective truths, well that hints at one - if you are out of the EU then we won't have to pay the fees to be a member. That is true.

The fact that we will instead be paying them as leave settlements is not the point. After Brexit (remember it hasn't happened yet) the govt, whoever they might be, could choose to spend an extra 350m on the NHS.

It was a stupid thing to promise because a campaign group can't deliver policy, they aren't a party, they would never habe had the power. But people have to take some responsibility too.

It's why referendum are so dangerous, because they are reductive and reduce very complex, multi layered issues into simple binary choices. They necessitate reductive, populism.

I'm afraid if you are waiting for objective facts you will wait forever, because that is not how policy, or politics works. Christ, academics spend their entire careers debating and disagreeing on issues, why does anyone think some politician (who of course, always just happens to be from the party that they support) has managed to confound some of the world's brightest minds and stumble across the objectively right answer? It's nonsensical.

[Hibrandenburg]

😁

Biggest opposition party then ?!

Best description would be "an isolated minority in the opposition". 😎

[Callum_62]

I think that 'give the people facts' line is a total cop out.

I'm sorry, but there rarely are objective facts,

The truth isnt the truth! [emoji23]

Factually we are worse of out of the EU. Every side should have been honest with that.

The easiest deal his history - lie - or can that be spun as being what he thought would probably happen, therefore not a lie but an unfortunate consequence of the EUs negotiation position?


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The truth isnt the truth! [emoji23]

Factually we are worse of out of the EU. Every side should have been honest with that.

The easiest deal his history - lie - or can that be spun as being what he thought would probably happen, therefore not a lie but an unfortunate consequence of the EUs negotiation position?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To you we are worse off, if full sovereignty, and less immigration is what pushed your buttons, then factually we are better off out of it.

I don't remember any one saying that, but even if they did, May be they are just stupid and wrong? Maybe they would have made a better job of negotiating our exit?

I don't believe they would have, but others might- it's not fact, it's opinion.

[Callum_62]

To you we are worse off, if full sovereignty, and less immigration is what pushed your buttons, then factually we are better off out of it.

I don't remember any one saying that, but even if they did, May be they are just stupid and wrong? Maybe they would have made a better job of negotiating our exit?

I don't believe they would have, but others might- it's not fact, it's opinion.

So in your world there is no such thing as a lie in politics, because when whatever anyone says doesnt come to fruition, there are always variables that mean they didnt lie- they were just mistaken

Are you a politician perchance? [emoji23]


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[RyeSloan]

To you we are worse off, if full sovereignty, and less immigration is what pushed your buttons, then factually we are better off out of it.

I don't remember any one saying that, but even if they did, May be they are just stupid and wrong? Maybe they would have made a better job of negotiating our exit?

I don't believe they would have, but others might- it's not fact, it's opinion.

And don’t forget the other sides ‘objective analysis’...immediate recession following the vote, emergency budgets and massive unemployment.

Objective facts on something that hasn’t happened and when it does it will be done on an unknown basis is simply not possible, as both sides of the referendum demonstrated rather ably.

[Bristolhibby]

And don’t forget the other sides ‘objective analysis’...immediate recession following the vote, emergency budgets and massive unemployment.

Objective facts on something that hasn’t happened and when it does it will be done on an unknown basis is simply not possible, as both sides of the referendum demonstrated rather ably.

We have not left yet. We still enjoy the benefits of EU membership.

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So in your world there is no such thing as a lie in politics, because when whatever anyone says doesnt come to fruition, there are always variables that mean they didnt lie- they were just mistaken

Are you a politician perchance? [emoji23]


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There are lies, but not many in the context you are talking about.

For example, take any piece of economic data and it can more or less be cut to suit any argument or slogan - are they telling lies?

Does it not seem odd to you that everyone with a different opinion to yourself is a liar, but those who agree with your point of view are are virtuous and pure? Does that not strike you as odd, and a bit unlikely?

There are very few objective truths, that's the nature of the beast in my opinion.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We have not left yet. We still enjoy the benefits of EU membership.

J

So in that case, the NHS 'promise' hasn't been broken because it couldn't have happened yet?

[Hibbyradge]

So in that case, the NHS 'promise' hasn't been broken because it couldn't have happened yet?

That's true, if you ignore the fact that every politician has said that the NHS will not be given the £350m extra per week.

It was a lie. Even the amount was exaggerated as it didn't take into account the various rebates that the UK receives.

I think you're the only person holding out any hope that it might actually happen.

delusion

noun

an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's true, if you ignore the fact that every politician has said that the NHS will not be given the £350m extra per week.

It was a lie. Even the amount was exaggerated as it didn't take into account the various rebates that the UK receives.

I think you're the only person holding out any hope that it might actually happen.

delusion

noun

an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.


I don't think it will happen, but it easily could be, it's a question of political will.

I'm just using that as an example to highlight that people need to be able to filter out stuff for themselves.

Of course it was deliberately ambiguous, and was highly suggestive, but it was no more Of a lie than any number of political campaign promises.

I'm not arguing for Brexit, I'm merely making the case that complaining that 'we weren't given the facts' is not a good excuse - in a democracy, We are accountable and people dismissing 17m votes on the basis that they are all dupes who were tricked by lies is insulting - people may not understand them, but lots of people had lots of reasons for voting to leave, that were real to them. Remain lost the argument, and in my opinion the arrogant complacency of those who assume that they are right and their virute will come through in their arguments was part of the reason.

Anyway I'll leave it there, I'm anti Brexit, and I think it's a stupid idea, and if there was another vote is so pay certainly vote to remain.

[RyeSloan]

We have not left yet. We still enjoy the benefits of EU membership.

J

The Treasury report detailed what would happen immediately after the vote...on any reading they were wrong on most counts.

So by the logic of this thread they lied and lied in a big way...deep and lasting recession, massive slump in U.K. house prices and a huge jump in unemployment...none of which came to pass.

As for the bus slogan. It was a deliberate lie to get the attention.

Both sides were at it and still are. Pathetic all round for sure but hey the public gets what the public wants no?

[Killiehibbie]

The Treasury report detailed what would happen immediately after the vote...on any reading they were wrong on most counts.

So by the logic of this thread they lied and lied in a big way...deep and lasting recession, massive slump in U.K. house prices and a huge jump in unemployment...none of which came to pass.

As for the bus slogan. It was a deliberate lie to get the attention.

Both sides were at it and still are. Pathetic all round for sure but hey the public gets what the public wants no?
What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies wash you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns

[heretoday]

The bus slogan was a typical electoral thing. Whoever dreamed it up had no authority to make post-Brexit promises on the NHS or anything else. The public saw it. Some believed it. Some didn't. Same with any election material.
It was xenophobia that won the day in the end, I'm afraid.

[Chic Murray]

CEO of RBS, says it could plunge the country into recession

They would be the experts on that, to be fair.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

CEO of RBS, says it could plunge the country into recession

They would be the experts on that, to be fair.

😁

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45745696

Welsh independence must be "on the table" after Brexit, Plaid Cymru's new leader has said.


Adam Price said if there was a "hard" Irish border and the UK left the EU single market and customs union "the appetite for Scottish independence and Irish unity" would be "insatiable".


He warned of a Wales "at the mercy of Westminster".


join the club, Scotland and Wales will both be at the mercy of a tory westminster

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45745696

Welsh independence must be "on the table" after Brexit, Plaid Cymru's new leader has said.


Adam Price said if there was a "hard" Irish border and the UK left the EU single market and customs union "the appetite for Scottish independence and Irish unity" would be "insatiable".


He warned of a Wales "at the mercy of Westminster".


join the club, Scotland and Wales will both be at the mercy of a tory westminster

Only slight fly in the ointment is the Welsh voted with their English cousins for BREXIT.

J

[RyeSloan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45745696

Welsh independence must be "on the table" after Brexit, Plaid Cymru's new leader has said.


Adam Price said if there was a "hard" Irish border and the UK left the EU single market and customs union "the appetite for Scottish independence and Irish unity" would be "insatiable".


He warned of a Wales "at the mercy of Westminster".


join the club, Scotland and Wales will both be at the mercy of a tory westminster

Language straight out of the SNP playbook that.

I suppose Plaid will need to learn a few lessons on how drive up support for their message considering just how low the appetite in Wales is for it.

Anyway it appears we are getting to the Brexit end game with the EU language changing markedly in the last few days.

Doesn’t look like the deal won’t be done by the deadline (never was, not how the EU does it negotiations) but the mood music suggests we might finally have the end in sight to this saga.

[Bristolhibby]

Language straight out of the SNP playbook that.

I suppose Plaid will need to learn a few lessons on how drive up support for their message considering just how low the appetite in Wales is for it.

Anyway it appears we are getting to the Brexit end game with the EU language changing markedly in the last few days.

Doesn’t look like the deal won’t be done by the deadline (never was, not how the EU does it negotiations) but the mood music suggests we might finally have the end in sight to this saga.

Northern Ireland / Ireland does seem to be the big issue though. Be intresting to see who gives first and if it’s a border in the Irish Sea or not.

J

[Phil MaGlass]

OK can someone help me out here, I am not politically minded,

I live in holland, with a British passport, how will the Brexit effect me and are people only getting dual nationalities as a backup?

[RyeSloan]

Northern Ireland / Ireland does seem to be the big issue though. Be intresting to see who gives first and if it’s a border in the Irish Sea or not.

J

Yeah I agree...was always going to be the trickiest issue as the desire / need for no hard border is at odds with the logical need for one.

Pretty sure there will be a fudge on this issue though to allow the wider deal to be agreed.

So I’m sticking to my prediction that in a couple of years Brexit will be seen as bit of a damp squib in terms of the actual changes it will have brought about and most people will be left wondering what the fuss was all about (as well as questioning if it was worth all the hassle of course)

I’m even left wondering if bizarrely history might be kinder on May than we could ever imagine now...if she manages to get an effective deal that allows all parties to move forward in a reasonably harmonious way as well as limiting (or even improving) any economic effects while facing down the Boris types then it might (and I stress MIGHT!) actually be seen as a major achievement. And one brought about in rather difficult circumstances

A bloomin’ long way to go before that happens of course but I suppose anything’s possible! [emoji6]

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah I agree...was always going to be the trickiest issue as the desire / need for no hard border is at odds with the logical need for one.

Pretty sure there will be a fudge on this issue though to allow the wider deal to be agreed.

So I’m sticking to my prediction that in a couple of years Brexit will be seen as bit of a damp squib in terms of the actual changes it will have brought about and most people will be left wondering what the fuss was all about (as well as questioning if it was worth all the hassle of course)

I’m even left wondering if bizarrely history might be kinder on May than we could ever imagine now...if she manages to get an effective deal that allows all parties to move forward in a reasonably harmonious way as well as limiting (or even improving) any economic effects while facing down the Boris types then it might (and I stress MIGHT!) actually be seen as a major achievement. And one brought about in rather difficult circumstances

A bloomin’ long way to go before that happens of course but I suppose anything’s possible! [emoji6]

Between the EU, Ireland and the UK, I would probably agree. The DUP is the great unknown here. I would tentatively suggest that the last thing anyone in any negotiation should do is give that mob a veto!

[RyeSloan]

Between the EU, Ireland and the UK, I would probably agree. The DUP is the great unknown here. I would tentatively suggest that the last thing anyone in any negotiation should do is give that mob a veto!

I think the DUP will be put in their place if needs be (or bought off with another £bn or two [emoji12]) but pretty sure they won’t be allowed to block any agreement considering the pain all sides would have went though to get an agreed position.

On a side note I see the Irish suggest that 90% of the deal is as good as done.

Will be rather interesting to see this fabled deal and of course every side throwing their dummy out of the pram when they see the compromises made. As whatever it is it won’t meet the remainers desire to stay in the status quo nor meet Boris’s mobs desire to sail off into the Atlantic pretending the EU no longer exists!

[Bristolhibby]

Remember when we thought we had a “deal” in the past? The DUP weren’t even told and blocked it.

I wonder how much of an input they have had?

Not that I think that the Good Friday denying party should have anything to do with complicated Geopolitics.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

This is a really good explainer of where we're (probably) at with the negotiations and various scenarios that could play out from here ...

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10/10/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-final-weeks-of-brexit

[CropleyWasGod]

Talk today of the DUP voting down the Budget.



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[Just Alf]

Talk today of the DUP voting down the Budget.



Sent from my SM-A520F using TapatalkI thought they were "bought and paid for"?

Unless they've had the cash and are looking to squeeze a bit more from the money tree?

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[CropleyWasGod]

I thought they were "bought and paid for"?

Unless they've had the cash and are looking to squeeze a bit more from the money tree?

Sent from my SM-G935F using TapatalkAhhh it's not all about the money now, is it? It's about the rights of women, and LGBT's and sex workers. They have to stand up for them, don't you know?

[emoji849]

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[Just Alf]

Ahhh it's not all about the money now, is it? It's about the rights of women, and LGBT's and sex workers. They have to stand up for them, don't you know?

[emoji849]

Sent from my SM-A520F using TapatalkAh yes... Good point, well made!

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[IGRIGI]

Talk today of the DUP voting down the Budget.



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No fan of the DUP but they put Ruth's staunch loyal at Westminster to shame with their influence.

[JeMeSouviens]

If you can be arsed to read it all, this is a brilliant write up of how we got where we are over several decades, by Sir Ivan Rogers, formerly Britain's permanent representative in Brussels before being pushed aside because the Brexiteers found his analysis of what could be achieved in the negotiations, "too gloomy". :rolleyes:

https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/31/brexiter-nigel-lawson-applies-french-residency-vote-leave

[Callum_62]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/11/second-kent-motorway-is-possible-post-brexit-lorry-park?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

We are turning Motorways into Lorry parks [emoji1303]


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[JeMeSouviens]

The withdrawal agreement negotiations over the Irish border still grinding on. We now have a "temporary backstop". So how long does it last? "indefinitely". :confused:

I would be amazed if the DUP go for this and there are bound to be some Tory euro rebels. So, the arithmetic looks like being -

Bulk of Labour + SNP + Libs + DUP + the harder part of the ERG

vs

Bulk of Tories + Labour Brexiteers

May will hope that the fear of Corbyn keeps some of the softer ERG in check and the fear of losing their seats gets her a few Labour rebels.

It looks like the government will lose but she has somehow managed to keep the show limping along the road against all odds up to this point ...

[JeMeSouviens]

Unless we end up in never-ending-transition!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/12/revealed-secret-plans-for-brexit-extension-option-to-appease-dup

(which I've always thought was quite likely tbh - http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?325181-State-of-play-in-Scotland&p=5189254#post5189254 :wink:)

[Jack]

Has the Gibraltar border been decided yet?

[Hibrandenburg]

The British government is actually advising British companies to relocate to other EU nations in case it all goes tits up. :faf:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-business-eu-uk-hq-no-deal-industry-europe-a8581431.html

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I thought both Blair's and Clegg's comments about a 2nd ref were very inreresting.

Those guys got lambasted at the time, but oh how we could do with them leading now.

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://youtu.be/0GkvOn6NQYY

[GlesgaeHibby]

https://youtu.be/0GkvOn6NQYY

Utter car crash stuff. I'd also expect a similar level of quality from Brexit supporting politicians. I'm still waiting to hear any of the benefits they see of us leaving the EU other than 'taking back control'.

[Colr]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/11/second-kent-motorway-is-possible-post-brexit-lorry-park?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

We are turning Motorways into Lorry parks [emoji1303]


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No change for the M25, then.

[Glory Lurker]

Has the Gibraltar border been decided yet?

It won't be there in a few years - was decided in June 2016.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Utter car crash stuff. I'd also expect a similar level of quality from Brexit supporting politicians. I'm still waiting to hear any of the benefits they see of us leaving the EU other than 'taking back control'.

Fantastic.....just bloody brilliant! Take back control to fix the potholes! Evict my neighbours! Unbelievable. Unfortunately this train of thought is common (hence the outcome of the vote)I work with loads of people who voted leave and not one can coherently explain what the benefits to them will be.

[Just Alf]

Utter car crash stuff. I'd also expect a similar level of quality from Brexit supporting politicians. I'm still waiting to hear any of the benefits they see of us leaving the EU other than 'taking back control'.


Fantastic.....just bloody brilliant! Take back control to fix the potholes! Evict my neighbours! Unbelievable. Unfortunately this train of thought is common (hence the outcome of the vote)I work with loads of people who voted leave and not one can coherently explain what the benefits to them will be.

"taking back control" is a really, really important point! .... the evidence clearly shows we needed to take back control... :agree:



after all.... here's how it panned out for the UK.

UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.


Shows it's well worth all this grief to get rid of the chance of loosing 2% of the time. :rolleyes:

[Mr Grieves]

"In the letter to Theresa May, the Scottish Tory leader and Scottish Secretary said: "Having fought just four years ago to keep our country together, the integrity of our United Kingdom remains the single most important issue for us in these negotiations"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45856784

That party and their leader don't give a **** about what brexit will do to Scotland.

[IGRIGI]

"In the letter to Theresa May, the Scottish Tory leader and Scottish Secretary said: "Having fought just four years ago to keep our country together, the integrity of our United Kingdom remains the single most important issue for us in these negotiations"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45856784

That party and their leader don't give a **** about what brexit will do to Scotland.

Complete and utter ****ing quislings.

[GlesgaeHibby]

"In the letter to Theresa May, the Scottish Tory leader and Scottish Secretary said: "Having fought just four years ago to keep our country together, the integrity of our United Kingdom remains the single most important issue for us in these negotiations"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45856784

That party and their leader don't give a **** about what brexit will do to Scotland.

Mundell and Ruth are embarassing - meant to be standing up for Scotland's interests. Totally empty threat too, not a chance they'd have the balls to resign.

[marinello59]

Complete and utter ****ing quislings.

Cvic nationalism? Good old fashioned right wing nationalism for you. Again.

[Hibrandenburg]

Cvic nationalism? Good old fashioned right wing nationalism for you. Again.

Whilst I don't agree with the term Quisling being thrown about indiscriminately, I'd just like to point out that it was a term used by civic nationalists to demean REAL blood and soil national socialists at a time where the country of the terms origin was under Nazi occupation. The Norwegian resistance were also Civic Nationalists. I'm not saying that there are similarities between then and now but it does blow the theory of those who equate civic nationalism to national socialism out of the water.

[JeMeSouviens]

Cvic nationalism? Good old fashioned right wing nationalism for you. Again.

tbf, I don’t think this poster has ever claimed to be a civic nationalist.

[Beefster]

OK can someone help me out here, I am not politically minded,

I live in holland, with a British passport, how will the Brexit effect me and are people only getting dual nationalities as a backup?

If I was you, I wouldn't be taking any advice but official advice - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advice-for-british-nationals-travelling-and-living-in-europe .

Mrs Beefster and mini-Beefster are getting Irish citizenship because they want to continue being EU citizens. I'd do the same, if it was possible. It probably won't be needed or change their day-to-day lives but I'd imagine that the time will come when them having EU passports will make some situation a little more straightforward.

[IGRIGI]

Cvic nationalism? Good old fashioned right wing nationalism for you. Again.

The term is spot on in this case.

They don't give a **** whether a separate deal or not is better for Scotland, the only concern is whether or not a deal is going to increase the desire for Scottish independence.

Only in Scotland is this response from politicians accepted.

The DUP is, whether you agree with them or not, standing up for Northern Ireland, while Ruth's staunch loyal is doing whatever it can to make sure the union is kept together with no two ****s given for the consequences of the deal for Scotland's people or economy.

[Callum_62]

Remind me- what is the actual job of the Scottish parliament?


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[WeeRussell]

Remind me- what is the actual job of the Scottish parliament?


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To do as they're telt and be totally disregarded/mocked in any political negotiations or conversation.

[CropleyWasGod]

The term is spot on in this case.

They don't give a **** whether a separate deal or not is better for Scotland, the only concern is whether or not a deal is going to increase the desire for Scottish independence.

Only in Scotland is this response from politicians accepted.

The DUP is, whether you agree with them or not, standing up for Northern Ireland, while Ruth's staunch loyal is doing whatever it can to make sure the union is kept together with no two ****s given for the consequences of the deal for Scotland's people or economy.

Given that they believe that Scotland is better-off within the UK, would you expect them to take any other position?

[JeMeSouviens]

The DUP are being offered something akin to the "cake and eat it" deal that the Brexiteers want but are too stupid to see it. They're fighting to throw their lifeboat overboard so they can stay with the sinking ship. Utter lunacy. :confused:

The fact that Scottish Tories want to ape them is hardly a surprise. :rolleyes:

In other news, today's teeny-weeny silver lining to the big bad brexit cloud is that I learned that the Italian equivalent of "having your cake and eating it" is "having a full barrel and a drunken wife". :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

The term is spot on in this case.

They don't give a **** whether a separate deal or not is better for Scotland, the only concern is whether or not a deal is going to increase the desire for Scottish independence.

Only in Scotland is this response from politicians accepted.

The DUP is, whether you agree with them or not, standing up for Northern Ireland, while Ruth's staunch loyal is doing whatever it can to make sure the union is kept together with no two ****s given for the consequences of the deal for Scotland's people or economy.


The term is, literally, not spot on in this case.

Vidkun Quisling assisted an external occupying power in governing Norway following armed invasion and also actively assisted that power (Nazi Germany) in implementing the delivery of the Final Solution in its Norwegian manifestation in attempting to eradicate Jewish people from Europe.

We have no external occupying power, we are in a political union by democratic choice, no-one is trying to send Jews or anyone else to death camps.

But aye, Ruth Davidson is a 'Quisling'. :rolleyes:

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/13/tories-take-four-point-lead-over-labour-despite-brexit-troubles


Tories have a 4 point lead over Labour in the polls, i wonder if Labour are doing something wrong




meanwhile, Theresa May's approval ratings have dropped from -12% to -17%

whilst the one known as 'jezza' sees his approval rating remain the same.... -20%

[Callum_62]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/13/tories-take-four-point-lead-over-labour-despite-brexit-troubles


Tories have a 4 point lead over Labour in the polls, i wonder if Labour are doing something wrong




meanwhile, Theresa May's approval ratings have dropped from -12% to -17%

whilst the one known as 'jezza' sees his approval rating remain the same.... -20%

I hope they’ve tweaked there polls since the last snap GE


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[Fife-Hibee]

Nicola on Brexit. Well worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?_x3eyQ29sbU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_x3eyQ29sbU)

[marinello59]

If only the Labour Party were saying something similar. Watching May scoring political points over Corbyn with ease just now when she should be getting roasted for pulling out of a deal last night ( and that is the only explanation for what went wrong) is ****ing tragic.

[Fife-Hibee]

If only the Labour Party were saying something similar. Watching May scoring political points over Corbyn with ease just now when she should be getting roasted for pulling out of a deal last night ( and that is the only explanation for what went wrong) is ****ing tragic.

I would hardly say she was scoring points over him. Corbyn just isn't grilling her, because he's getting what he wants anyway. It's a bit hard to put up an argument against the opposition when they're delivering what you want them to.

[Hibrandenburg]

Has the Gibraltar border been decided yet?

Listening to May's answer to this today in the house, it sounds like Gibraltar is a goner. I suspect there's some kind of trade off over the NI question being negotiated.

[JeMeSouviens]

If only the Labour Party were saying something similar. Watching May scoring political points over Corbyn with ease just now when she should be getting roasted for pulling out of a deal last night ( and that is the only explanation for what went wrong) is ****ing tragic.

According to running commentary from various journos on twitter May got virtually no support from anyone in the Commons - attacked from all sides by DUP, SNP, ERG, peoples' voters etc (some groups in need of a catchy TLA).

Looks like she has written off the DUP who are digging in as the dangerously awkward *******s we know and love - https://www.politico.eu/article/arlene-foster-dup-northern-ireland-brexit-unionists-plan-guerilla-war-against-northern-ireland-brexit-plan/

Her only chance of getting deal through now seems to be carving off enough Labour MPs. She has to simultaneously convince Brexiters that it's her deal or a 2nd ref while convincing Remainers it's her deal or no deal. And that's if she even gets a deal.

[Fife-Hibee]

According to running commentary from various journos on twitter May got virtually no support from anyone in the Commons - attacked from all sides by DUP, SNP, ERG, peoples' voters etc (some groups in need of a catchy TLA).

Looks like she has written off the DUP who are digging in as the dangerously awkward *******s we know and love - https://www.politico.eu/article/arlene-foster-dup-northern-ireland-brexit-unionists-plan-guerilla-war-against-northern-ireland-brexit-plan/

Her only chance of getting deal through now seems to be carving off enough Labour MPs. She has to simultaneously convince Brexiters that it's her deal or a 2nd ref while convincing Remainers it's her deal or no deal. And that's if she even gets a deal.

I'm sure some todger on Sky News said "what a performance" after that absolute debacle. He must have thought it was a pantomime of some sort that he was watching. But at least we know what the narrative is going to be over the coming days.

[marinello59]

According to running commentary from various journos on twitter May got virtually no support from anyone in the Commons - attacked from all sides by DUP, SNP, ERG, peoples' voters etc (some groups in need of a catchy TLA).

Looks like she has written off the DUP who are digging in as the dangerously awkward *******s we know and love - https://www.politico.eu/article/arlene-foster-dup-northern-ireland-brexit-unionists-plan-guerilla-war-against-northern-ireland-brexit-plan/

Her only chance of getting deal through now seems to be carving off enough Labour MPs. She has to simultaneously convince Brexiters that it's her deal or a 2nd ref while convincing Remainers it's her deal or no deal. And that's if she even gets a deal.

True, she is looking increasingly isolated but those who left her to deal with the mess are offering no solutions to any of this.

[bigwheel]

True, she is looking increasingly isolated but those who left her to deal with the mess are offering no solutions to any of this.


they don't want to help...they want to grab power , with their agenda, when she fails....

[Glory Lurker]

they don't want to help...they want to grab power , with their agenda, when she fails....

Which they will fail to do because there isn't a chance of Labour getting a majority.....

[bigwheel]

Which they will fail to do because there isn't a chance of Labour getting a majority.....

Tbh. I was talking about her own party colleagues..

[Glory Lurker]

Tbh. I was talking about her own party colleagues..

Ah, sorry. Got you.

[ronaldo7]

We used to play a game called, kick the can, in my youth. Theresa should win it hands down these days.

[JeMeSouviens]

Does anybody still think there's going to be a deal that stands a chance of getting through parliament?

I read somewhere recently (can't remember who said it) that No-deal Brexit is this year's Trump. All through the long lead in and many hurdles to get there you think, nah, that couldn't happen ... :worried:

On the flip side, the chances of an eventual remain are growing by the day as well. :pray:

[Fife-Hibee]

Does anybody still think there's going to be a deal that stands a chance of getting through parliament?

I read somewhere recently (can't remember who said it) that No-deal Brexit is this year's Trump. All through the long lead in and many hurdles to get there you think, nah, that couldn't happen ... :worried:

On the flip side, the chances of an eventual remain are growing by the day as well. :pray:

No deal brexit was the plan all along. In exchange for closer relations with the US. All we need to do is adopt all of their laws and regulations. Such as allowing maggots and worms into our food supply. You know... all that "red tape" that was standing in the way of business.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does anybody still think there's going to be a deal that stands a chance of getting through parliament?

I read somewhere recently (can't remember who said it) that No-deal Brexit is this year's Trump. All through the long lead in and many hurdles to get there you think, nah, that couldn't happen ... :worried:

On the flip side, the chances of an eventual remain are growing by the day as well. :pray:

Is Remain this year's Bernie Sanders, though? Pinning one's hopes to a wizened old unicorn, while the Triffids sneak in the back door.


Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Mr Grieves]

Does anybody still think there's going to be a deal that stands a chance of getting through parliament?

I read somewhere recently (can't remember who said it) that No-deal Brexit is this year's Trump. All through the long lead in and many hurdles to get there you think, nah, that couldn't happen ... :worried:

On the flip side, the chances of an eventual remain are growing by the day as well. :pray:

Peston and his sources -

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2189927274665339/

Customs Union and massively divided tory party, or no deal

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Peston and his sources -

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2189927274665339/

Customs Union and massively divided tory party, or no deal

Im a remainer, and would like the whole thing stopped if possible.

However, IF for arguments sake we accept that brexit is happening, then staying in the customs union is pretty stupid. One of the only benefits of Brexit is the abilitu to rrade with other countries, so if that is gone, it is a major problem.

I was pretty set against a second ref, just because i really dont think you should do that, but given we appaear to be heading to gridlock which will lead us to the one place that almost everyone agrees would be very damaging (i.e. no deal exit), i think it is becoming the only sane option.

[Smartie]

Im a remainer, and would like the whole thing stopped if possible.

However, IF for arguments sake we accept that brexit is happening, then staying in the customs union is pretty stupid. One of the only benefits of Brexit is the abilitu to rrade with other countries, so if that is gone, it is a major problem.

I was pretty set against a second ref, just because i really dont think you should do that, but given we appaear to be heading to gridlock which will lead us to the one place that almost everyone agrees would be very damaging (i.e. no deal exit), i think it is becoming the only sane option.

I'm a remainer, and I'm uncomfortable with any "fudge" option.

As I see it, you're in or you're out, anything in between just doesn't work.

I'd like the whole farce stopped, but short of that happening I'd like to cut all ties, stick Boris, Fox and chums up there and tell them to make a success of it.

There are potential advantages to leaving the EU - there aren't the way we're going about it.

(I think I am agreeing with you here)

[Bristolhibby]

Wash your mouth out! Boris in charge!?!

Na.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Is Remain this year's Bernie Sanders, though? Pinning one's hopes to a wizened old unicorn, while the Triffids sneak in the back door.


Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Remain/EU is this year's Hillary I think: the devil you know, friend of the establishment, damaged goods, the whiff of corruption etc. etc.

[Callum_62]

I'd like the whole farce stopped, but short of that happening I'd like to cut all ties, stick Boris, Fox and chums up there and tell them to make a success of it

This magician told me he could put out fire with his magic

So, I set my house ablaze - i hope he’s right


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Im a remainer, and would like the whole thing stopped if possible.

However, IF for arguments sake we accept that brexit is happening, then staying in the customs union is pretty stupid. One of the only benefits of Brexit is the abilitu to rrade with other countries, so if that is gone, it is a major problem.

I was pretty set against a second ref, just because i really dont think you should do that, but given we appaear to be heading to gridlock which will lead us to the one place that almost everyone agrees would be very damaging (i.e. no deal exit), i think it is becoming the only sane option.

The EU has a massive raft of global deals which will take an age to replicate and as a market of 60M vs 500M from a much weaker negotiating position. So the "advantage" is only if you want to do it on terms markedly different to the EU: low regulation, trash workers' rights etc. That's the driving motivation behind a large part of the Tory party. It would be disastrous for the country in both short and long terms imo.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm a remainer, and I'm uncomfortable with any "fudge" option.

As I see it, you're in or you're out, anything in between just doesn't work.

I'd like the whole farce stopped, but short of that happening I'd like to cut all ties, stick Boris, Fox and chums up there and tell them to make a success of it.

There are potential advantages to leaving the EU - there aren't the way we're going about it.

(I think I am agreeing with you here)

Fudges work for Norway and Switzerland: 2 of the richest and happiest countries on the planet.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm a remainer, and I'm uncomfortable with any "fudge" option.

As I see it, you're in or you're out, anything in between just doesn't work.

I'd like the whole farce stopped, but short of that happening I'd like to cut all ties, stick Boris, Fox and chums up there and tell them to make a success of it.

There are potential advantages to leaving the EU - there aren't the way we're going about it.

(I think I am agreeing with you here)

Agreed! 👍

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The EU has a massive raft of global deals which will take an age to replicate and as a market of 60M vs 500M from a much weaker negotiating position. So the "advantage" is only if you want to do it on terms markedly different to the EU: low regulation, trash workers' rights etc. That's the driving motivation behind a large part of the Tory party. It would be disastrous for the country in both short and long terms imo.

When i say 'advantage', i mean relatively. I dont think its worth leaving for, but if we are leaving, its a rare upside.

I actually think what you are sayinh - tye UK undercutting the EU on tax etc is one of their biggest fears - a major economy, on their doorstep, but outside their influence is a major threat to the EU model.

[Smartie]

Fudges work for Norway and Switzerland: 2 of the richest and happiest countries on the planet.

I'd say that's more to do with oil, gold and the ability to make independent political choices for those nations to make the most of those resources than their respective relationships with the EU though.

[JeMeSouviens]

When i say 'advantage', i mean relatively. I dont think its worth leaving for, but if we are leaving, its a rare upside.

I actually think what you are sayinh - tye UK undercutting the EU on tax etc is one of their biggest fears - a major economy, on their doorstep, but outside their influence is a major threat to the EU model.

I agree with your last point but I'm not sure it's an upside. The UK might get richer but that wealth would be concentrated in few hands. They want to ape the US: a great place - if you've got money.

[grunt]

As I see it, you're in or you're out, anything in between just doesn't work.With respect, have you been asleep for the last two and a bit years? There's pretty much nothing in life which is as simple as you suggest, certainly not constitutional, sovereignty and trade links between the UK and the EU.

I'm not sure what you mean by "just doesn't work". Doesn't work for you? Or England, or the Brexiters, or the car manufacturers, or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd say that's more to do with oil, gold and the ability to make independent political choices for those nations to make the most of those resources than their respective relationships with the EU though.

They don't actually have gold mines in Switzerland :wink: ... and I *know* you're not going down the tired Nazi gold trope! But staying neutral, incredible political stability, harmonious employment relations and a very high level of decentralisation have all undoubtedly helped. And obviously you're right about Norwegian oil.

Still, when push comes to shove, both of these very rich countries see the advantages in staying within a fudgetastic embrace of Europe's single market. The UK would be (currently is) stark staring bonkers not to be doing similar.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I agree with your last point but I'm not sure it's an upside. The UK might get richer but that wealth would be concentrated in few hands. They want to ape the US: a great place - if you've got money.

That would be my fear also.

[JeMeSouviens]

Spare a thought for poor old Theresa though, bet this is fair keeping her awake at night. :rolleyes:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/david-mundell-could-quit-over-extended-eu-brexit-transition-1-4817089

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Spare a thought for poor old Theresa though, bet this is fair keeping her awake at night. :rolleyes:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/david-mundell-could-quit-over-extended-eu-brexit-transition-1-4817089

Ha ha, the brexit dividend at last 😁

[Smartie]

With respect, have you been asleep for the last two and a bit years? There's pretty much nothing in life which is as simple as you suggest, certainly not constitutional, sovereignty and trade links between the UK and the EU.

I'm not sure what you mean by "just doesn't work". Doesn't work for you? Or England, or the Brexiters, or the car manufacturers, or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties?

Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........

I'll take you up on this point :greengrin

Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.

[grunt]

Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........This is mostly spot on, especially with regard to the Brexiters lack of accountability for the trouble they've caused. But I disagree with your comment here:



But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.
This was an advisory referendum, strewn with lies and probable external involvement, in a country which operates a representative democracy - our democracy is delivered through our Parliamentary representatives. So i feel no compunction whatsoever in arguing that the referendum does not need to be respected.

[grunt]

2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.Indeed.

[Smartie]

They don't actually have gold mines in Switzerland :wink: ... and I *know* you're not going down the tired Nazi gold trope! But staying neutral, incredible political stability, harmonious employment relations and a very high level of decentralisation have all undoubtedly helped. And obviously you're right about Norwegian oil.

Still, when push comes to shove, both of these very rich countries see the advantages in staying within a fudgetastic embrace of Europe's single market. The UK would be (currently is) stark staring bonkers not to be doing similar.

By "gold" I was just really referring to the fact that they have a bit of wealth behind them (wherever it came from and whatever it is).

I don't think the fact that these 2 countries are not often associated with poverty experienced elsewhere in Europe and the wider world is down to the constitutional arrangements that these countries have with the EU (much as it seems unpopular these days to suggest that there is more to politics than deciding who your country is and isn't in the various forms of union that exist with).

[Smartie]

I'll take you up on this point :greengrin

Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.

I would tend to agree with this.

But what if the result was the same?

In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

Where do we go then?

[CropleyWasGod]

I would tend to agree with this.

But what if the result was the same?

In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

Where do we go then?If that's the case, that's democracy.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

I'll take you up on this point :greengrin

Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.

The possible Brexit options are so different that I don't really see how they can be considered to all stem from the same mandate anyway. A Norway+CU deal is clearly much closer to remain than no deal leave. Did a significant proportion of Brexit voters vote for Norway+CU? Probably not but the margin was wafer thin. It's hardly stretching credulity to say there was >50% for Remain+Norway+CU.

How many voted for no deal or would have voted for no deal if the consequences were set out? The dubiety of claiming "the will of the people" while taking us out on a no deal without a vote specfically on that premise is off the charts imo.

[Smartie]

This is mostly spot on, especially with regard to the Brexiters lack of accountability for the trouble they've caused. But I disagree with your comment here:



This was an advisory referendum, strewn with lies and probable external involvement, in a country which operates a representative democracy - our democracy is delivered through our Parliamentary representatives. So i feel no compunction whatsoever in arguing that the referendum does not need to be respected.

Funnily enough, I've had many, many arguments with Brexiteers where I hold your viewpoint and to be honest it is one that I agree with.

So I am not going to argue with it.

What I should probably say is that we should at least respect and acknowledge that a huge number of people voted in a particular way, and will have had their reasons for doing so. When you go about trying to have a second referendum you should have rock solid reasons for doing so (which I think we have and you outlined) but you also have to be prepared to face the wrath of a large number of people who will disagree with what you are trying to do, and be ready for any potential backlash.

Say Scotland had voted Yes in 2014, then we had a second referendum to overturn it. It wouldn't have gone down very well, would it?

[Smartie]

If that's the case, that's democracy.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Third vote, no?

[Hibrandenburg]

But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

:agree: The voices of over 67% of the UK's electorate should be respected :wink:

[grunt]

But what if the result was the same?

In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

Where do we go then?


If that's the case, that's democracy.
Counter argument - the Government is elected to lead the country. We're not required to make constitutional decisions based on popular opinion. It's time the Government showed some leadership.

[Moulin Yarns]

The possible Brexit options are so different that I don't really see how they can be considered to all stem from the same mandate anyway. A Norway+CU deal is clearly much closer to remain than no deal leave. Did a significant proportion of Brexit voters vote for Norway+CU? Probably not but the margin was wafer thin. It's hardly stretching credulity to say there was >50% for Remain+Norway+CU.

How many voted for no deal or would have voted for no deal if the consequences were set out? The dubiety of claiming "the will of the people" while taking us out on a no deal without a vote specfically on that premise is off the charts imo.

I doubt many of the leave voters actually thought along those lines, it was more to do with stopping migration and funding the NHS :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

If that's the case, that's democracy.



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:agree: You can stretch a thin case for saying the Tories have a GE mandate from last year to pursue a hard brexit *with* a deal. But even then it promised a "deep and special partnership", near frictionless trade etc.

If they pursue no deal without a 2nd referendum then I think that's about as anti-democratic as it gets. If they pursue no deal and get it endorsed in a referendum then fair enough, the UK deserves all that's coming.

[JeMeSouviens]

Counter argument - the Government is elected to lead the country. We're not required to make constitutional decisions based on popular opinion. It's time the Government showed some leadership.

Yeah, there is the argument that the people are not competent to make this sort of decision. I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though. :rolleyes:

[grunt]

I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though. :rolleyes:
No argument there.

[JeMeSouviens]

By "gold" I was just really referring to the fact that they have a bit of wealth behind them (wherever it came from and whatever it is).

I don't think the fact that these 2 countries are not often associated with poverty experienced elsewhere in Europe and the wider world is down to the constitutional arrangements that these countries have with the EU (much as it seems unpopular these days to suggest that there is more to politics than deciding who your country is and isn't in the various forms of union that exist with).

No neither do I. Actually in both cases their political class would prefer (and have tried) to move towards full EU membership but both accept the fudge as a 2nd best option. So I'm refuting your "doesn't work for anyone" argument. It might not be the best but it's better than nothing.

[heretoday]

Yeah, there is the argument that the people are not competent to make this sort of decision. I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though. :rolleyes:

So who's going to make the decision?

[Colr]

Quite a turn out today, so it was!!

[Bristolhibby]

People’s vote with an alternative vote system.

I’d vote to remain, with my vote transferring to staying in the single market and customs union if required. I will leave no deal blank.

J

[Jack Hackett]

Probably the most accurate articulation of how I feel about this monumental f*** up

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/20/second-referendum-hard-brexit-peoples-vote-way-forward


The f***wits stole the referendum. To deny a 2nd referendum would be criminal.

[IGRIGI]

Probably the most accurate articulation of how I feel about this monumental f*** up

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/20/second-referendum-hard-brexit-peoples-vote-way-forward


The f***wits stole the referendum. To deny a 2nd referendum would be criminal.


""For them, Europe means inclusiveness, shared values and laws, mutual tolerance and a joyful openness to the majestic richness of myriad lifestyles, languages, traditions and beliefs.""

Until the Greeks or Italians get ideas above their stations and tolerance and openness goes out the window.

Does any remainer here not have even the slightest concern at the actions of Brussels towards anyone who doesnt toe their line?

[Jack Hackett]

""For them, Europe means inclusiveness, shared values and laws, mutual tolerance and a joyful openness to the majestic richness of myriad lifestyles, languages, traditions and beliefs.""

Until the Greeks or Italians get ideas above their stations and tolerance and openness goes out the window.

Does any remainer here not have even the slightest concern at the actions of Brussels towards anyone who doesnt toe their line?

Wot? You mean the rules they signed up to but want to disregard?

edit.. The Greeks had to take some medicine, but their economy is now growing faster than it has in a decade. The EU were there to help them achieve this. Left to their own devices and with no support, where do you think they'd be now>

Further edit

There is no argument that any brexiteer can make that can be justified. The referendum was a knee jerk reaction by an ignorant, racist section of the population who saw all their xmases come early. I am at the point now where their feeble attempts to justify what could tear this nation apart just make me extremely angry. Please add me to your 'ignore' list, as I will you.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

""For them, Europe means inclusiveness, shared values and laws, mutual tolerance and a joyful openness to the majestic richness of myriad lifestyles, languages, traditions and beliefs.""

Until the Greeks or Italians get ideas above their stations and tolerance and openness goes out the window.

Does any remainer here not have even the slightest concern at the actions of Brussels towards anyone who doesnt toe their line?

The shared values stuff is just flannel. Its about money, power and economic succes. The EU is the practical realisation of neoliberal economics, the worlds largest trade bloc and a genuine global player in finance and trade.

We are mad to leave because it makes us poorer, not because we suddenly dont have some sort of shared values that exist only within a bureaucracy in Brussels.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Wot? You mean the rules they signed up to but want to disregard?

edit.. The Greeks had to take some medicine, but their economy is now growing faster than it has in a decade. The EU were there to help them achieve this. Left to their own devices and with no support, where do you think they'd be now?

Theyd have devalued, possibly decaulted and probably also ve back to growth and a lot more globally competitive.

The EU sacrificed them to protect the larger project. It wasnt some act of altruism.

[Jack Hackett]

Theyd have devalued, possibly decaulted and probably also ve back to growth and a lot more globally competitive.

The EU sacrificed them to protect the larger project. It wasnt some act of altruism.

Is that based on the same logic and arithmetic used by Boris? It's conjecture with no basis in fact. It's a 'mibbae', just like every other brexit argument

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Is that based on the same logic and arithmetic used by Boris? It's conjecture with no basis in fact. It's a 'mibbae', just like every other brexit argument

Im not making a brexit argument at all.

You asked a question, i suggested an answer based on my understanding of how countries in financial difficulty can use monetary policy to alleviate their situation.

Sorry if it wasnt the answer you were after.

Of course its not based in fact, its a completely hypothetical question, so any answer will always be hypothetical too.

[Jack Hackett]

Im not making a brexit argument at all.

You asked a question, i suggested an answer based on my understanding of how countries in financial difficulty can use monetary policy to alleviate their situation.

Sorry if it wasnt the answer you were after.

Of course its not based in fact, its a completely hypothetical question, so any answer will always be hypothetical too.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but there doesn't appear to be anything hypothetical in the response "The EU sacrificed them to protect the larger project. It wasnt some act of altruism.". Are you saying that the EU should not have protected the interests of its member states? Isn't this precisely what the EU should be doing? Who else was going to give them the billions the country needed to get through the week... Wonga?

[RyeSloan]

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but there doesn't appear to be anything hypothetical in the response "The EU sacrificed them to protect the larger project. It wasnt some act of altruism.". Are you saying that the EU should not have protected the interests of its member states? Isn't this precisely what the EU should be doing? Who else was going to give them the billions the country needed to get through the week... Wonga?

You mean protect the German banks that were so in hock to the Greeks that a default would have sunk them?

The solution was to impose a level of austerity that decimated the countries economy, forced millions onto the bread line, unemployment over 30% and youth unemployment over 60% and the shrinking of gdp by near 50%.

But at least they were bailed out to enable them to pay their debt to their creditors. Hurrah for the EU and it’s commitment to the greater good.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but there doesn't appear to be anything hypothetical in the response "The EU sacrificed them to protect the larger project. It wasnt some act of altruism.". Are you saying that the EU should not have protected the interests of its member states? Isn't this precisely what the EU should be doing? Who else was going to give them the billions the country needed to get through the week... Wonga?

No worries!

No, im not saying the EU were wrong to do it, from their perspective they were never going to let Greece bring down the eurozone.

Many greeks would probably disagree and say they were wrong, and that greece should have defaulted on their loans.

All im saying is that the EU is not altruistic, and took acrions in its own financial interest. Thats not wrong, but neither does it make them the shining city on the hill.

[Jack Hackett]

No worries!

No, im not saying the EU were wrong to do it, from their perspective they were never going to let Greece bring down the eurozone.

Many greeks would probably disagree and say they were wrong, and that greece should have defaulted on their loans.

All im saying is that the EU is not altruistic, and took acrions in its own financial interest. Thats not wrong, but neither does it make them the shining city on the hill.

:aok:

It's a dog eat dog world bud, and our economy is a comparative tiddler on the world stage. Anyone who thinks that leaving the EU will suddenly open up trading opportunities that will compensate the hit leaving without a deal will entail is living in fantasy land. I'd much rather have the EU behind us with a lifeboat than have to swim with the sharks.

I'd say that a very large percentage of the leavers didn't give a single thought to the economic implications. Studies have shown that the cost so far has already had a massive impact https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-22/u-k-brexit-hit-already-exceeds-eu-budget-payments-study-shows... and that's before we've left.

The future of the company I work for is unclear... my own future is unclear, as I intended to retire to Spain in 4-5 years. All because un and mis-informed Daily Mail type readers won the day by a small majority. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, they can go **** themselves

[Jack Hackett]

You mean protect the German banks that were so in hock to the Greeks that a default would have sunk them?

The solution was to impose a level of austerity that decimated the countries economy, forced millions onto the bread line, unemployment over 30% and youth unemployment over 60% and the shrinking of gdp by near 50%.

But at least they were bailed out to enable them to pay their debt to their creditors. Hurrah for the EU and it’s commitment to the greater good.

Aye, OK... and German banks going under would have been good for who? Some people appear to have short memories of what happens when banks collapse.

[RyeSloan]

Aye, OK... and German banks going under would have been good for who? Some people appear to have short memories of what happens when banks collapse.

So why not let the bankers shareholder and bond holders take the hit instead? Then take direct remedial action from there if required to protect depositors and the like? It really couldn’t be because that cost would be borne by the host country of those banks and not the Greeks could it?

The alternative has been forcing a whole country into grinding austerity. Just one example is Greek pensioners taking huge haircuts to their payments in order for the country to continue paying the banks.

The treatment of Greece, sacrificed to save the Euro project is nothing short of a tragic disgrace yet somehow it’s brushed aside as some sort of acceptable collateral damage. Often by the same people that still rage against the UK bail outs and the (minor in comparison) implications it had for UK government borrowing and spending.

Of course Italy can’t be forced to do the same, it has far too much heft in the Eurozone for that to happen. Hence why we now have a rather interesting dialogue between Italy and the EU. Which no doubt will end up with an accounting fudge to allow the populists to continue increasing the 130%+ debt to gdp ratio while the EU pretends that it’s rules are being (at least somewhat) adhered to.

Then you have Draghi finally getting to the end of his term and with it the use of phoney money to falsely cap Euro zone countries debt costs...the implications of which to the likes of Italy (already suffering a big spike in debt costs), Portugal et. al. Are interesting to say the least. To call it an unholy mess would be an understatement

A situation that of course has came about (again) due to Italy’s inability to grow largely due to the ridiculous imbalances caused by the Euro...imbalances which, low and behold, appear to suit the Germans quite nicely.

So the narrative that the EU is some sort of driver for universal good and shared unbridled economic prosperity is a common one in the Brexit chat but the reality is rather more nuanced than that.

So when you glibly suggest that those supporting Brexit simply haven’t considered economic implications then maybe the same can just as easily be directed at the Remainers by suggesting the vast majority of them have no real understanding of what negatives the EU and in particular the Eurozone bring to that same party.

[grunt]

So when you glibly suggest that those supporting Brexit simply haven’t considered economic implications then maybe the same can just as easily be directed at the Remainers by suggesting the vast majority of them have no real understanding of what negatives the EU and in particular the Eurozone bring to that same party.This is all very interesting, I'm sure. But we weren't in the Eurozone, and as far as I recall there was no prospect of us being in it. So, what does this all have to bear on our monumentally stupid decision to leave the EU?

[grunt]

It looks like the UK has been able to complete at least one deal with the EU: https://www.gbc.gi/news/pedro-sanchez-confirms-brexit-deal-over-Gibraltar

[Jack Hackett]

This is all very interesting, I'm sure. But we weren't in the Eurozone, and as far as I recall there was no prospect of us being in it. So, what does this all have to bear on our monumentally stupid decision to leave the EU?

Saved me the trouble mate. Read that on the bus and got bored half way through. Greece got in trouble... along with others in the zone, Italy Spain Ireland being the other debt basket cases, but Spain and Ireland recognised the problem before it was totally out of control. Greece, and Italy, chose to hide/lie about the extent of their borrowing/debt. This was/is a huge problem for the Eurozone, which grunt has helpfully explained that we have nothing to do with other than as trading partners

[RyeSloan]

Saved me the trouble mate. Read that on the bus and got bored half way through. Greece got in trouble... along with others in the zone, Italy Spain Ireland being the other debt basket cases, but Spain and Ireland recognised the problem before it was totally out of control. Greece, and Italy, chose to hide/lie about the extent of their borrowing/debt. This was/is a huge problem for the Eurozone, which grunt has helpfully explained that we have nothing to do with other than as trading partners

Ahh glad you found my narrative interesting [emoji23]

But if you think the Eurozone and it’s finances are nothing to do with the UK and it’s relationship with the EU or have any relevance to the debate as we are just ‘trading partners’ then you’ve maybe made my point for me.

[grunt]

Ahh glad you found my narrative interesting [emoji23]

But if you think the Eurozone and it’s finances are nothing to do with the UK and it’s relationship with the EU or have any relevance to the debate as we are just ‘trading partners’ then you’ve maybe made my point for me.Ok, please explain?

[RyeSloan]

This is all very interesting, I'm sure. But we weren't in the Eurozone, and as far as I recall there was no prospect of us being in it. So, what does this all have to bear on our monumentally stupid decision to leave the EU?

Because it shows just How fungible the alleged shared values, laws and mutual tolerance kinda goes when push comes to shove I suppose.

How the euro zone behaves and the impacts it has goes to the core of the EU and it’s stated purpose.

To pretend it’s some sort of separate issue to what becomes of being a member of the EU is therefore rather odd from my view.

Especially if you are making a judgements that its monumentally stupid to leave.

[grunt]

Because it shows just How fungible the alleged shared values, laws and mutual tolerance kinda goes when push comes to shove I suppose. How the euro zone behaves and the impacts it has goes to the core of the EU and it’s stated purpose. To pretend it’s some sort of separate issue to what becomes of being a member of the EU is therefore rather odd from my view.You're usually more convincing than this.

Especially if you are making a judgements that its monumentally stupid to leave.I'm prepared to be convinced I'm wrong, but nothing has changed my mind yet.

[Jack Hackett]

Ahh glad you found my narrative interesting [emoji23]

But if you think the Eurozone and it’s finances are nothing to do with the UK and it’s relationship with the EU or have any relevance to the debate as we are just ‘trading partners’ then you’ve maybe made my point for me.

Remind me what your point was again. Really can't be bothered trawling back through the thread. In fact, I have things to do so might get back to you tomorrow... if it isn't a re-hash of how nasty the EU is because they punished the Greeks for grossly mismanaging their economy

[Hibbyradge]

https://newrepublic.com/article/151733/mistake-countries-repeatedly-make-dealing-eu

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

https://newrepublic.com/article/151733/mistake-countries-repeatedly-make-dealing-eu

Good article, cheers for posting.

[Ryan69]

:aok:

It's a dog eat dog world bud, and our economy is a comparative tiddler on the world stage. Anyone who thinks that leaving the EU will suddenly open up trading opportunities that will compensate the hit leaving without a deal will entail is living in fantasy land. I'd much rather have the EU behind us with a lifeboat than have to swim with the sharks.

I'd say that a very large percentage of the leavers didn't give a single thought to the economic implications. Studies have shown that the cost so far has already had a massive impact https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-22/u-k-brexit-hit-already-exceeds-eu-budget-payments-study-shows... and that's before we've left.

The future of the company I work for is unclear... my own future is unclear, as I intended to retire to Spain in 4-5 years. All because un and mis-informed Daily Mail type readers won the day by a small majority. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, they can go **** themselves

What is the point of democracy when idiots like you are around.

The majority won....Accept it!

Most of the UK dont read the Daily Mail by the way also.

[CropleyWasGod]

What is the point of democracy when idiots like you are around.

The majority won....Accept it!

Most of the UK dont read the Daily Mail by the way also.

Majorities can also change. See Elections.

[Ryan69]

Majorities can also change. See Elections.

Mainstream media will try to manipulate people so that they change yes.
Like the march they say had 700,000....Though police figures were 140,000.

The UK spoke...get over it!


I wanted independance...But lost that one.

I had to just deal with it!

Cameron also stated...Its a ONCE in a lifetime vote!
The result has been decided..Bring on Brexit. :)

[JeMeSouviens]

Mainstream media will try to manipulate people so that they change yes.
Like the march they say had 700,000....Though police figures were 140,000.

The UK spoke...get over it!


I wanted independance...But lost that one.

I had to just deal with it!

Cameron also stated...Its a ONCE in a lifetime vote!
The result has been decided..Bring on Brexit. :)

Like the Sun, the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express ...

If Brexit is so great it will be a skoosh to win a referendum to confirm people want to go ahead with the deal (or no deal) that's actually on offer. Why would any democrat be afraid of that?

[Callum_62]

Like the Sun, the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express ...

If Brexit is so great it will be a skoosh to win a referendum to confirm people want to go ahead with the deal (or no deal) that's actually on offer. Why would any democrat be afraid of that?

Coz Brexit means Brexit. Anything else is just unpatriotic and dismissing the will of the people

That non binding referendum needs respected- no matter what the consequences


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[WeeRussell]

What is the point of democracy when idiots like you are around.

The majority won....Accept it!

Most of the UK dont read the Daily Mail by the way also.

From reading both of these posts, I'm not sure it's you that should be throwing the word 'idiot' around.

I would agree on questioning the value of democracy given the mindset and views of so many people in our country. Your posts are testament to that.

[Ryan69]

Like the Sun, the Mail, the Telegraph, the Express ...

If Brexit is so great it will be a skoosh to win a referendum to confirm people want to go ahead with the deal (or no deal) that's actually on offer. Why would any democrat be afraid of that?


Because it betrays democracy!

It sets a dangerous path for the future.

Plus anytime anytime anybody has voted to leave the EU...The same game has been played.
Threats.
Scaremongering.
Then another vote.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because it betrays democracy!

It sets a dangerous path for the future.

Plus anytime anytime anybody has voted to leave the EU...The same game has been played.
Threats.
Scaremongering.
Then another vote.

I take it you will never vote in another election as the people voted and that's democracy.

Which other countries have held a referendum on leaving the EU?

EDIT. Greenland left the EU when it gained home rule from Denmark so it was part of another state.

[CropleyWasGod]

Because it betrays democracy!

It sets a dangerous path for the future.

Plus anytime anytime anybody has voted to leave the EU...The same game has been played.
Threats.
Scaremongering.
Then another vote.

Democracy isn't static, it's fluid.

If we vote in a Government and then, a couple of years later, decide we don't want them any more, we have the right to change our mind.

Collectively, we are more clued-up now on EU-related issues that we were 2 years ago, and know now what it's likely to mean. Many who voted for Brexit are not getting what they thought they voted for. They're entitled to have their say.

I'm not sure what the fear is.

[grunt]

I'm not sure what the fear is.I am.

[Just Alf]

I am.Me too :agree:

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[CropleyWasGod]

I am.It was a rhetorical answer [emoji39]

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[Lendo]

Everyone! We are getting a new brexit 50p coin!!!

Brexit is a success!!!!!!

[Lendo]

Everyone! We are getting a new brexit 50p coin!!!

Brexit is a success!!!!!!


Or, Philip Hammond is about to drop some awful budget news and this is being used to distract the idiots.

[Callum_62]

Everyone! We are getting a new brexit 50p coin!!!

Brexit is a success!!!!!!

Which will be worth about 40p in Europe [emoji106][emoji2532]


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[Callum_62]

Or, Philip Hammond is about to drop some awful budget news and this is being used to distract the idiots.

Surely no? Austerity IS OVER!


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[CapitalGreen]

The result has been decided..Bring on Brexit. :)

A guy who rarely leaves his mum's basement but is desperate to leave the EU.

[Callum_62]

Theresa May refuses to guarantee medicine supply under 'no-deal' Brexit - Sky News https://apple.news/AK8uNdSs2RG2KZIZohzKRjQ


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[Mr Grieves]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/anthony-barnett/trump-or-brussels-brexit-and-art-of-no-deal

[Hibernia&Alba]

Did anyone see this at the weekend? Banks is as dishonest as the leave campaign itself was.


https://youtu.be/BmMt4Kla-4w

[Callum_62]

Did anyone see this at the weekend? Banks is as dishonest as the leave campaign itself was.


https://youtu.be/BmMt4Kla-4w

Comes across as a wholly honest guy who is obviously being stitched up

[steakbake]

Comes across as a wholly honest guy who is obviously being stitched up

Hahaha very good.

[Callum_62]

Hahaha very good.

[emoji23][emoji106][emoji2532][emoji57]

Its a COMPANY!!! [emoji23][emoji23]


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[cabbageandribs1875]

wow, imagine embarrassing old p@shy breeks himself, carry on the good work for this country Ricky :rolleyes: tho i'm sure most voters are aware leonard doesn't and never will speak up for Scottish interests...the ****


21389

[Hibrandenburg]

wow, imagine embarrassing old p@shy breeks himself, carry on the good work for this country Ricky :rolleyes: tho i'm sure most voters are aware leonard doesn't and never will speak up for Scottish interests...the ****


21389

He's in top form our George.

21390

[Slavers]

Macron now saying they need a European Army. Prior to brexit anyone from leave who mentioned the possibility of an EU army was shot down as a conspiracy theorist.

[Hibrandenburg]

Macron now saying they need a European Army. Prior to brexit anyone from leave who mentioned the possibility of an EU army was shot down as a conspiracy theorist.

Macron is one voice of many and the vast majority of the other EU nations are against any communal army. Most would like to see more military cooperation but that's not the same as a European Army. Fwiw in the new world we have to look at alternatives to EU defence, the threats are different and we can no longer rely on the US to bare the brunt of our defence.

[RyeSloan]

I’m finally starting to look forward to the reveal of the big fudge!

Will require a rather large supply of popcorn (stockpiled of course) I would imagine...

[RyeSloan]

Macron is one voice of many and the vast majority of the other EU nations are against any communal army. Most would like to see more military cooperation but that's not the same as a European Army. Fwiw in the new world we have to look at alternatives to EU defence, the threats are different and we can no longer rely on the US to bare the brunt of our defence.

Sure it’s just Macron?

The words of Michel Barnier suggest otherwise: “Our aim: autonomous and united European defence. Which means a Union capable of acting by itself and always supportive in its alliances”

I wonder what he has in mind that might help realise that vision?

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m finally starting to look forward to the reveal of the big fudge!

Will require a rather large supply of popcorn (stockpiled of course) I would imagine...

Times reporting May has told the DUP she is (finally!) caving on the backstop (she’s already signed up to, twice!)

[JeMeSouviens]

btw, this is only the withdrawal fudge. If (v big one) May gets this through cabinet and parliament we have many years of lovely fudging over the actual trade deal to look forward to. Happy days!

[wpj]

I have just watched the news where expats in France are being "threatened" with not having legal status to stay post Brexit. It honestly is a total shambles, I have often been angry at politics including the miners strike and the criminal justice act and time has proved the anger to be justified however Brexit is the most unthought out mess I can remember . The vote made it look like stay or leave. The reality has proved to be so much more. All the politions who backed it without any details should hang their heads in shame. The fact that they are all eyeing number 10 as their next home means it is unlikely. I am actively pursuing an Irish Passport and planning retirement in Europe in two years time when eligible.

[Callum_62]

I have just watched the news where expats in France are being "threatened" with not having legal status to stay post Brexit. It honestly is a total shambles, I have often been angry at politics including the miners strike and the criminal justice act and time has proved the anger to be justified however Brexit is the most unthought out mess I can remember . The vote made it look like stay or leave. The reality has proved to be so much more. All the politions who backed it without any details should hang their heads in shame. The fact that they are all eyeing number 10 as their next home means it is unlikely. I am actively pursuing an Irish Passport and planning retirement in Europe in two years time when eligible.

Ken, but its the will eh the people n that


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[wpj]

Ken, but its the will eh the people n that


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And we had all the facts to make their informed decision. As the Donald would say, Saad.

[wpj]

Not a pop at you at all Callum
Internet often makes a response appear the wrong way
Commuting to London so dont know how to give the thumbs up smilie on my phone

[Callum_62]

And we had all the facts to make their informed decision. As the Donald would say, Saad.

Thakfully i have dual citizenship and can come and go from NZ

Does concern me as im getting married in Croatia in July 2019....pretty damn soon after we are supposed to leave


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[wpj]

Thakfully i have dual citizenship and can come and go from NZ

Does concern me as im getting married in Croatia in July 2019....pretty damn soon after we are supposed to leave


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I have edited my post, I wish you all the very best, can you get Croation passport?

[Callum_62]

I have edited my post, I wish you all the very best, can you get Croation passport?

No - we have no links to Croatia at all - just love the place. Sure we will be fine in terms of getting in (i could always use my nz ppport) and even if they need to pay a fee surely there will be some mechanism for uk passport holders visiting

Its more that GBP that is concerning


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[wpj]

No - we have no links to Croatia at all - just love the place. Sure we will be fine in terms of getting in (i could always use my nz ppport) and even if they need to pay a fee surely there will be some mechanism for uk passport holders visiting

Its more that GBP that is concerning


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My friend was here last week from Germany (my retirement destination with her hopefully) and she was shocked at the prices here, her Euros lasted minutes after buying coffee and food and beer. I lived in Germany for most of the 90s and it was not madly expensive. I want to visit Croatia so may pm you for recommendations if cool

[Fife-Hibee]

What I find interesting is that so many people who backed Scotlands continuation as a mere state of Britain, now can't wait to jump ship and leave Scotland as a result of the brexit fiasco.

Do the damage then run so it doesn't effect you.

[CropleyWasGod]

What I find interesting is that so many people who backed Scotlands continuation as a mere state of Britain, now can't wait to jump ship and leave Scotland as a result of the brexit fiasco.

Do the damage then run so it doesn't effect you.

Genuine question.... who?

[Sylar]

Dominic Raab finally realises the UK is a ****ing island that's actually quite close to France, and hadn't quite realised how dependent we are on the Dover-Calais link:


"We are, and I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."And that's one of the reasons why, and there's been a lot of controversy about this, but one of the reasons why we wanted to make sure that we have a very specific and very proximate relationship with the EU to ensure frictionless trade at the border, particularly for just-in-time manufacturing goods whether it's pharmaceutical goods or perishable goods like food."


"I don't think it's a question so much of the risk of major shortages but I think probably the average consumer might not be aware of the full extent to which the choice of goods that we have in the stores are dependent on one or two very specific trade routes."

I think you'll find that's utter bull**** Dom...

[Hibrandenburg]

Dominic Raab finally realises the UK is a ****ing island that's actually quite close to France, and hadn't quite realised how dependent we are on the Dover-Calais link:



I think you'll find that's utter bull**** Dom...

I saw that and was absolutely gobsmacked. God help you all.

[JeMeSouviens]

It'll be a happy xmas dinner in the extended Johnson household as Boris' brother, Jo, resigns from the government to fight *against* Brexit and his sister, Rachel, calls Jo
my honourable and principled brother Jo who has put the interests of the country ahead of his political career

Ouch! :wink:

https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson/status/1060925600683175939

[wpj]

It'll be a happy xmas dinner in the extended Johnson household as Boris' brother, Jo, resigns from the government to fight *against* Brexit and his sister, Rachel, calls Jo

Ouch! :wink:

https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson/status/1060925600683175939

I have used the word shambolic a few times on here but it has gone beyond that now. Clueless, useless, no plan, guessing our future, disrespecting the voters on both sides. There were no plans in place to vote on, now we are relying on a bunch of complete tools to take it forward. So, in summary, a shambles.

[matty_f]

Dominic Raab finally realises the UK is a ****ing island that's actually quite close to France, and hadn't quite realised how dependent we are on the Dover-Calais link:



I think you'll find that's utter bull**** Dom...

It would be incredible if it wasn't just so typical of politicians in Brexit Britain at the moment.

That should be an instant dismissal from his role, clearly not at the level required for the responsibility that comes with it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

He's in top form our George.

21390


he certainly is, has a wee bit difficulty with the maths as well


https://www.thenational.scot/news/16129278.labour-lords-attempt-to-attack-independence-backfires-hilariously/

[cabbageandribs1875]

wonder how this will pan out :greengrin

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/08/uk-cannot-stop-brexit-article-50-case-going-to-ecj-says-scottish-court?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR19HNdulFY3qU0dU3uYx07UmXyMSi6caWtYotkeE WD0dgTFot2PyD-tLUQ


Scotland’s highest court has refused the UK government leave to appeal its referral of a case to the European court of justice that seeks to establish whether the UK can unilaterally stop Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum). This paves the way for the case to be heard in Luxembourg later this month.

[Hibrandenburg]

If there's a deal on the table then it needs to be made public soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/12/ba-spain-no-deal-brexit-iag-eu

[GlesgaeHibby]

If there's a deal on the table then it needs to be made public soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/12/ba-spain-no-deal-brexit-iag-eu

Cabinet called in to sign off on the deal...here we go. In for an interesting week. Can't see cabinet uniting behind the deal.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Cabinet called in to sign off on the deal...here we go. In for an interesting week. Can't see cabinet uniting behind the deal.

Very difficult to achieve, given the strongly held views on all sides, particularly amongst the Brextremists. Any hint of compromise and extending the transition period will send them berserk.

[Slavers]

Sure it’s just Macron?

The words of Michel Barnier suggest otherwise: “Our aim: autonomous and united European defence. Which means a Union capable of acting by itself and always supportive in its alliances”

I wonder what he has in mind that might help realise that vision?

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/angela-merkel-calls-for-creation-of-real-true-eu-army/ar-BBPEQOt?ocid=ientp

Merkel now calling for a European army.

Who do they think will sign up to serve in it? Maybe this is why the EU is so desperate for migration from Africa into the EU?

[Callum_62]

Would an EU army be any different from the British forces?

[Hibernia&Alba]

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/angela-merkel-calls-for-creation-of-real-true-eu-army/ar-BBPEQOt?ocid=ientp

Merkel now calling for a European army.

Who do they think will sign up to serve in it? Maybe this is why the EU is so desperate for migration from Africa into the EU?


http://media3.giphy.com/media/2UGAnJvbXVO5W/giphy.gif

[Slavers]

http://media3.giphy.com/media/2UGAnJvbXVO5W/giphy.gif

I see this has you stumped for a comment?

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/angela-merkel-calls-for-creation-of-real-true-eu-army/ar-BBPEQOt?ocid=ientp

Merkel now calling for a European army.

Who do they think will sign up to serve in it? Maybe this is why the EU is so desperate for migration from Africa into the EU?

Genuine question. What are the reservations with, and objections to, a European army?

And how would that differ from, and complement, NATO?

[Slavers]

Genuine question. What are the reservations with, and objections to, a European army?

And how would that differ from, and complement, NATO?

Ill come back to this in detail.

But initially common sense would say that Russia would not take kindly to an expansionist EU becoming a military super power on it's door step.

One way ticket to a major war in Europe once again.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ill come back to this in detail.

But initially common sense would say that Russia would not take kindly to an expansionist EU becoming a military super power on it's door step.

One way ticket to a major war in Europe once again.

It already has NATO "on its doorstep", though. NATO has 29 countries in its membership. All of them, with the exception of Canada and the US, are European.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It already has NATO "on its doorstep", though. NATO has 29 countries in its membership. All of them, with the exception of Canada and the US, are European.

:agree:

There are American troops positioned literally a few hundred yards from the Russian border.

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree:

There are American troops positioned literally a few hundred yards from the Russian border.

I would put money on there being Russian troops even closer.

[RyeSloan]

Genuine question. What are the reservations with, and objections to, a European army?

And how would that differ from, and complement, NATO?

I think it’s because an army to fight in the name of the EU is a clear step to the EU being an ever more overarching entity over sovereign power and another step in the ‘ever closer integration’ plan.

Some people may like the idea of interest rates set by Frankfurt and national budgets through a banking union controlled by Brussels with an EU army to back it’s power, others less so.

[Hibrandenburg]

With the Russian bear sharpening it's claws again, China evolving into a world super power, left, right and religious extremism together with Trump threatening to dissolve NATO, it would be incredibly negligent for the EU not to explore new ideas on mutual defence. As has happened in the past, a rich and prospering society unable to defend itself could easily fall victim to its own success and the greed of others. For me an EU military is not only necessary but also inevitable.

[lord bunberry]

With the Russian bear sharpening it's claws again, China evolving into a world super power, left, right and religious extremism together with Trump threatening to dissolve NATO, it would be incredibly negligent for the EU not to explore new ideas on mutual defence. As has happened in the past, a rich and prospering society unable to defend itself could easily fall victim to its own success and the greed of others. For me an EU military is not only necessary but also inevitable.
It would also lower the risk of wars between European countries. At the moment that’s unlikely, but you never know in the future.

[Hibrandenburg]

It would also lower the risk of wars between European countries. At the moment that’s unlikely, but you never know in the future.

A German friend of mine (history teacher) said just after the brexit referendum, that he wouldn't be surprised to see EU army peacekeeping troops in the UK within the next 20 years. It's hard to argue with his logic when you look at the rise of the right in other former amalgamated nations.