General election 2019

[Ozyhibby]

A different point, of course, but do you have any idea why McDonnell and Corbyn are labelled commies, Marxists, etc, when their proposals to increase state spending would more or less bring the UK into line with the state spending of other advanced European/Scandinavian countries? Is it that the whole of Europe and Scandinavia are commies and Marxists? :dunno:

Their manifesto makes no mention of our tax rates going up to the levels paid in those countries?


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[RyeSloan]

A different point, of course, but do you have any idea why McDonnell and Corbyn are labelled commies, Marxists, etc, when their proposals to increase state spending would more or less bring the UK into line with the state spending of other advanced European/Scandinavian countries? Is it that the whole of Europe and Scandinavia are commies and Marxists? :dunno:

I’m not up on why others call others something I’m afraid but I assume the likes of waving the little red book in the commons and their past utterances and allegiances might have something to do with it?

From what I can see though their current plans and your point about other counties and their level of spending misses a key point. The Scandinavian countries while having high spending have on the flip side appear to have a much broader tax base. UK Labour seem alone in that they think this can all be funded (well when they are not borrowing the rest of the untold billions of course) by the few for the many.

As an example the Swedish income tax band starts at around £1,200, Denmark £5,000.

Anyhoo we either need to believe the IFS just has it all wrong and John is right in his repeated rubbishing of their analysis or we don’t.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not up on why others call others something I’m afraid but I assume the likes of waving the little red book in the commons and their past utterances and allegiances might have something to do with it?

From what I can see though their current plans and your point about other counties and their level of spending misses a key point. The Scandinavian countries while having high spending have on the flip side appear to have a much broader tax base. UK Labour seem alone in that they think this can all be funded (well when they are not borrowing the rest of the untold billions of course) by the few for the many.

As an example the Swedish income tax band starts at around £1,200, Denmark £5,000.

Anyhoo we either need to believe the IFS just has it all wrong and John is right in his repeated rubbishing of their analysis or we don’t.

Not to mention the price of a beer in those countries. I’m not sure people here are happy to pay those prices.


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[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn can’t even get an endorsement from the New Statesman.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/leader-britain-deserves-better


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[Cataplana]

Corbyn can’t even get an endorsement from the New Statesman.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/leader-britain-deserves-better


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Didn't Boris edit that at one time? Or, am I thinking of The Spectator?

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't Boris edit that at one time? Or, am I thinking of The Spectator?

Spectator I think.


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[SHODAN]

Wonder if Trump will spit the dummy after the video of Johnson mocking him and say that the NHS is indeed for sale.

[G B Young]

Corbyn can’t even get an endorsement from the New Statesman.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/leader-britain-deserves-better


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If we are to believe Ian Murray, Labour have privately accepted defeat already. I mentioned earlier in the thread that canvassers for him were openly admitting Corbyn wasn't going to win, while I've now been shown a letter sent to constituents which includes: "As one of Jeremy Corbyn's harshest critics I share your concerns about the Labour Party leader. When you cast your vote on December 12th you are electing the person you want to be your local MP for the next five years. Your are not electing a party leader or a government. The result in Edinburgh South will not decide the outcome nationally. I have proved myself to be an independently-minded MP who doesn't just toe the party line but is prepare to vote against my own party and even break the whip if it means putting the needs of my constituents first. The opinion polls show the Conservatives are currently on course to win the election nationally and that the result in Edinburgh South could be close between me and the SNP. I may be the only Labour MP in Scotland again which would be bad for democracy and advance the SNP obsession with indepdendence."

[Ozyhibby]

If we are to believe Ian Murray, Labour have privately accepted defeat already. I mentioned earlier in the thread that canvassers for him were openly admitting Corbyn wasn't going to win, while I've now been shown a letter sent to constituents which includes: "As one of Jeremy Corbyn's harshest critics I share your concerns about the Labour Party leader. When you cast your vote on December 12th you are electing the person you want to be your local MP for the next five years. Your are not electing a party leader or a government. The result in Edinburgh South will not decide the outcome nationally. I have proved myself to be an independently-minded MP who doesn't just toe the party line but is prepare to vote against my own party and even break the whip if it means putting the needs of my constituents first. The opinion polls show the Conservatives are currently on course to win the election nationally and that the result in Edinburgh South could be close between me and the SNP. I may be the only Labour MP in Scotland again which would be bad for democracy and advance the SNP obsession with indepdendence."


He’s not wrong. There is almost zero chance of there not being a Tory majority now. Polls have just not moved enough for Labour.
The size of the SNP win in Scotland is important now. Any increase on 35 seats is a success but really need to be above 40. Battle for a 2nd indyref will start almost immediately and will likely head for the courts.


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[Moulin Yarns]

If we are to believe Ian Murray, Labour have privately accepted defeat already. I mentioned earlier in the thread that canvassers for him were openly admitting Corbyn wasn't going to win, while I've now been shown a letter sent to constituents which includes: "As one of Jeremy Corbyn's harshest critics I share your concerns about the Labour Party leader. When you cast your vote on December 12th you are electing the person you want to be your local MP for the next five years. Your are not electing a party leader or a government. The result in Edinburgh South will not decide the outcome nationally. I have proved myself to be an independently-minded MP who doesn't just toe the party line but is prepare to vote against my own party and even break the whip if it means putting the needs of my constituents first. The opinion polls show the Conservatives are currently on course to win the election nationally and that the result in Edinburgh South could be close between me and the SNP. I may be the only Labour MP in Scotland again which would be bad for democracy and advance the SNP obsession with indepdendence."


You have to wonder when the leaflet was printed, I got 3 different flyers from 1 party today, each one had photos of Nicola Sturgeon on them, and 21 references to #indyref2. Not bad for the tories to be so accommodating. 😁

[G B Young]

You have to wonder when the leaflet was printed, I got 3 different flyers from 1 party today, each one had photos of Nicola Sturgeon on them, and 21 references to #indyref2. Not bad for the tories to be so accommodating. 😁

It wasn't a leaflet, it was a follow-up letter based on feedback from last week's canvassing which my sister received this morning.

[Bristolhibby]

A different point, of course, but do you have any idea why McDonnell and Corbyn are labelled commies, Marxists, etc, when their proposals to increase state spending would more or less bring the UK into line with the state spending of other advanced European/Scandinavian countries? Is it that the whole of Europe and Scandinavia are commies and Marxists? :dunno:

It’s a lazy slur and has no basis to label a whole party. It is done because it frightens the horses (voters).

Marxist = Communist = Baddies.

Genuinely thought we’d moved on from this.

J

[heretoday]

Wonder if Trump will spit the dummy after the video of Johnson mocking him and say that the NHS is indeed for sale.

No way!

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a lazy slur and has no basis to label a whole party. It is done because it frightens the horses (voters).

Marxist = Communist = Baddies.

Genuinely thought we’d moved on from this.

J

I think the fact that Labour are promising to confiscate private property for the state has many people thinking that Corbyn May be about to embark along a path he has long promoted. When he says Venezuela is a great example of how socialism could work, people get slightly nervous.


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[Moulin Yarns]

You have to wonder when the leaflet was printed, I got 3 different flyers from 1 party today, each one had photos of Nicola Sturgeon on them, and 21 references to #indyref2. Not bad for the tories to be so accommodating. 😁

I've just realised the one important word missing from ALL of the Tory flyers I have received, BREXIT. I wonder what they are scared of? 🤔

[lapsedhibee]

I think the fact that Labour are promising to confiscate private property for the state has many people thinking that Corbyn May be about to embark along a path he has long promoted. When he says Venezuela is a great example of how socialism could work, people get slightly nervous.


Are they promising to do that? I've missed that in this campaign (probably blinded by the blizzard of lies from all corners).

[cabbageandribs1875]

so, Diane Abbott's privately educated son arrested last friday for biting one police officer and punching and spitting at another outside the foreign office.... he's a law graduate too, jesus ******* wept, how ******* vile

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/diane-abbott-son-james-arrested-charged-assaulting-police-a4304306.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/diane-abbott-son-james-arrested-charged-assaulting-police-a4304306.html)


and Abbott would be responsible for policing :rolleyes:

no surprise labour want to scrap private schools if he's an example of the end product

[One Day Soon]

I’m not up on why others call others something I’m afraid but I assume the likes of waving the little red book in the commons and their past utterances and allegiances might have something to do with it?

From what I can see though their current plans and your point about other counties and their level of spending misses a key point. The Scandinavian countries while having high spending have on the flip side appear to have a much broader tax base. UK Labour seem alone in that they think this can all be funded (well when they are not borrowing the rest of the untold billions of course) by the few for the many.

As an example the Swedish income tax band starts at around £1,200, Denmark £5,000.

Anyhoo we either need to believe the IFS just has it all wrong and John is right in his repeated rubbishing of their analysis or we don’t.


If the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that there is a hole in your finances it means that there is a hole in your finances. They are politically neutral, heavyweight and well respected.

They've previously taken apart the Nat 'Growth Commission' proposals authoritatively and now they've done Labour.

An equal opportunity exposer of politicians talking financial keek for party electoral advantage. They should be applauded for dealing in facts in a time of politicians spinning fantasies.

[Colr]

so, Diane Abbott's privately educated son arrested last friday for biting one police officer and punching and spitting at another outside the foreign office.... he's a law graduate too, jesus ******* wept, how ******* vile

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/diane-abbott-son-james-arrested-charged-assaulting-police-a4304306.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/diane-abbott-son-james-arrested-charged-assaulting-police-a4304306.html)


and Abbott would be responsible for policing :rolleyes:

no surprise labour want to scrap private schools if he's an example of the end product

I blame the parents!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

see, i said wee willie would sneak up the charts


22759

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191205/47827619a6796982dde378b93d0c5e74.jpg
Still no movement, one week to go. Brexit here we come.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/maximiliangapes/status/1202354909372436481
Lib Dem’s looking to go into coalition with Tories again.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/maximiliangapes/status/1202354909372436481
Lib Dem’s looking to go into coalition with Tories again.


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Really?

A Twitter comment with no sense of the credibility of the tweeter and lots of doubt and scorn poured on them from the outset. But let’s treat it as fact in the post-truth society we now inhabit.

Curiously enough, despite Swinson seemingly being worthy of her own thread where lots of SNP-supporting posters queue up to insult her about her accent, her appearance and her policies, I am not seeing anything in the way of criticism of her performance against Andrew Neil tonight.

I thought she was relatively decent. She defused the coalition issue by making it clear the Lib Dems had fought for their policies, won some, lost some. I think she could have been bolder actually, and made a bigger play that in coalition they had to make concessions to get the electoral referendum. That had the potential to change the dynamic in U.K. politics forever, and allow for genuinely progressive coalition politics to emerge. She could have then acknowledged that the AV campaign got their strategy and tactics wrong but she was hardly a senior player when that was all happening.

By issuing a clear and direct apology on some of the decisions between 2010-2015 she essentially blocked off a number of Neil’s questions.

I thought she was strongest when challenged about not wanting Corbyn or Johnson as PM. She put a strong message out that will resonate, differently in different quarters, about people’s concerns about the suitability of either man to be PM. In a febrile post-GE environment that opens the door to a centrist candidate from either side, which strengthens the odds of avoiding Brexit. She also made it clear about the party stance - voting for legislation for a peope’s vote but not to endorse Corbyn or Johnson. That was a tricky horse to straddle but I think she got there.

[Mon Dieu4]

I am not seeing anything in the way of criticism of her performance against Andrew Neil tonight.



I'd imagine you are the only person on here that actually watched it to be able to comment on how well or not she did

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd imagine you are the only person on here that actually watched it to be able to comment on how well or not she did

Possibly :greengrin

As befits the generation we live in, I was also keeping track of the Ross County game and half an eye on the English matches, plus texting my daughter about plans for the weekend!

[JimBHibees]

If we are to believe Ian Murray, Labour have privately accepted defeat already. I mentioned earlier in the thread that canvassers for him were openly admitting Corbyn wasn't going to win, while I've now been shown a letter sent to constituents which includes: "As one of Jeremy Corbyn's harshest critics I share your concerns about the Labour Party leader. When you cast your vote on December 12th you are electing the person you want to be your local MP for the next five years. Your are not electing a party leader or a government. The result in Edinburgh South will not decide the outcome nationally. I have proved myself to be an independently-minded MP who doesn't just toe the party line but is prepare to vote against my own party and even break the whip if it means putting the needs of my constituents first. The opinion polls show the Conservatives are currently on course to win the election nationally and that the result in Edinburgh South could be close between me and the SNP. I may be the only Labour MP in Scotland again which would be bad for democracy and advance the SNP obsession with indepdendence."


What a shocking attitude to have. Didn't need to try and distance himself from Corbin just covering his own ass.

[Ozyhibby]

What a shocking attitude to have. Didn't need to try and distance himself from Corbin just covering his own ass.

I think he did. Murray is voted in as a British Nationalist rather than as a democratic socialist. His election depends on wrapping himself in the union flag. There won’t be much talk about equality, unions etc from Murray.


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[SHODAN]

Unless Johnson manages to spectacularly **** up he's heading the biggest Tory majority since Thatcher starting a week today. I really don't want to think about what is going to happen.

[ballengeich]

Another flier from Stirling MP Stephen Kerr this morning. Showing pride in the government's record? - no. Telling me about their plans for the next parliament? - no. Talking up the merits of Brexit? - no.

The entire case is that to stop Nicola Sturgeon getting another independce referendum you have to vote for Kerr. It's an appeal for Labour and LibDem supporters to lend him their votes.

[lapsedhibee]

Unless Johnson manages to spectacularly **** up he's heading the biggest Tory majority since Thatcher starting a week today. I really don't want to think about what is going to happen.

What's going to happen is that people north of our border with England will form a separate state. Like minded people south of that border will band together and form a smaller, separate, state there - somewhere like Pimlico, perhaps. The island of Ireland will unify. Britain will have been made Great again, think that's how that'll all work.

[SHODAN]

What's going to happen is that people north of our border with England will form a separate state. Like minded people south of that border will band together and form a smaller, separate, state there - somewhere like Pimlico, perhaps. The island of Ireland will unify. Britain will have been made Great again, think that's how that'll all work.

No, it won't. The government will just stonewall all requests for us to ask that question because there are enough people in this country to be perfectly fine with that regardless of the political or economic climate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Another flier from Stirling MP Stephen Kerr this morning. Showing pride in the government's record? - no. Telling me about their plans for the next parliament? - no. Talking up the merits of Brexit? - no.

The entire case is that to stop Nicola Sturgeon getting another independce referendum you have to vote for Kerr. It's an appeal for Labour and LibDem supporters to lend him their votes.

Sounds very much the same as the ones that dropped through my letterbox yesterday, just change the candidate.




You have to wonder when the leaflet was printed, I got 3 different flyers from 1 party today, each one had photos of Nicola Sturgeon on them, and 21 references to #indyref2. Not bad for the tories to be so accommodating. ��


I've just realised the one important word missing from ALL of the Tory flyers I have received, BREXIT. I wonder what they are scared of? ��

[Hibbyradge]

Another flier from Stirling MP Stephen Kerr this morning. Showing pride in the government's record? - no. Telling me about their plans for the next parliament? - no. Talking up the merits of Brexit? - no.

The entire case is that to stop Nicola Sturgeon getting another independce referendum you have to vote for Kerr. It's an appeal for Labour and LibDem supporters to lend him their votes.

It may be negative, but it's as good an argument as any other, tbh. It's his strongest one.

Labour and the SNP are campaigning to Stop the Tories selling off the NHS and to stop the Tory Brexit. Same style of negative arguments.

I think Kerr will fail to hold his seat though. 🤞

[Ozyhibby]

No, it won't. The government will just stonewall all requests for us to ask that question because there are enough people in this country to be perfectly fine with that regardless of the political or economic climate.

They might find that denying the right of self determination is against the law.


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[Future17]

They might find that denying the right of self determination is against the law.

I think it's more a principle than a law, by which I mean nobody really knows for sure how it should be implemented in practice.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it's more a principle than a law, by which I mean nobody really knows for sure how it should be implemented in practice.

I think it would be very dangerous for the UK government to say to the people of Scotland that we no longer have any democratic route to independence. That only provides fuel for the extremists in society. Democracy is fundamental to our way of life.


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[SHODAN]

They might find that denying the right of self determination is against the law.


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I suspect the SG lawyers are trying to find that themselves and not coming up with any proof.

[Ozyhibby]

I suspect the SG lawyers are trying to find that themselves and not coming up with any proof.

I suspect there won’t be any proof. It’s likely that there are two different laws and the courts will be asked to decide if they are compatible and if not, which is most important.


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[lapsedhibee]

I suspect there won’t be any proof. It’s likely that there are two different laws and the courts will be asked to decide if they are compatible and if not, which is most important.


It's clear from page 48 of their manifesto that the Tories don't intend the courts to be able to interfere, as they did in the last parliament, with what they want to do in the next.

[Glory Lurker]

It's clear from page 48 of their manifesto that the Tories don't intend the courts to be able to interfere, as they did in the last parliament, with what they want to do in the next.

Ooft. Just read that. I'm pretty sure there's a word to describe a system that prevents courts ruling on laws.

[Smartie]

Ooft. Just read that. I'm pretty sure there's a word to describe a system that prevents courts ruling on laws.

I just had a glance over the page and couldn't see anything that stood out as being particularly noxious (other than the predictable over use of the ridiculous "get Brexit done" phrase).

[JeMeSouviens]

I just had a glance over the page and couldn't see anything that stood out as being particularly noxious (other than the predictable over use of the ridiculous "get Brexit done" phrase).


“We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays”.

There could be an awful lot lurking under that anodyne statement.

[lapsedhibee]

I just had a glance over the page and couldn't see anything that stood out as being particularly noxious (other than the predictable over use of the ridiculous "get Brexit done" phrase).

"we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts"

[Moulin Yarns]

I suspect there won’t be any proof. It’s likely that there are two different laws and the courts will be asked to decide if they are compatible and if not, which is most important.


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I don't know what any of this means but, there seems to be some international precedents, however, whether it applies to the Scottish secession from the UK or not. I haven't a scooby.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/self_determination_(international_law)


https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/22/issue/1/self-determination-and-secession-under-international-law-cases-kurdistan
(https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/22/issue/1/self-determination-and-secession-under-international-law-cases-kurdistan)

https://www.diakonia.se/en/IHL/The-Law/International-Law1/IL--Self-Determination/

Also


The political origins of the modern concept of self-determination can be traced back to the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America of 4 July 1776 , which proclaimed that governments derived ‘their just powers from the consent of the governed’ and that ‘whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it’. The principle of self-determination was further shaped by the leaders of the French Revolution

[Bristolhibby]

I think the fact that Labour are promising to confiscate private property for the state has many people thinking that Corbyn May be about to embark along a path he has long promoted. When he says Venezuela is a great example of how socialism could work, people get slightly nervous.


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Confiscate or buy out with a fair price?

Been happening for years. Try owning a house on the route of a big bypass. Compulsory Purchase Orders.

J

[Bristolhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191205/47827619a6796982dde378b93d0c5e74.jpg
Still no movement, one week to go. Brexit here we come.


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How has every party gone down 1% point?

J

[Future17]

I think it would be very dangerous for the UK government to say to the people of Scotland that we no longer have any democratic route to independence. That only provides fuel for the extremists in society. Democracy is fundamental to our way of life.


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I don't disagree and that applies to extremists on both sides.

[Ozyhibby]

How has every party gone down 1% point?

J

Change UK surge? [emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

I don't disagree and that applies to extremists on both sides.

Totally. The biggest strength of the union is that it is a choice. If it starts to be compulsory with no democratic escape route then that is a gift for the more radical folk on both sides.


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[ballengeich]

How has every party gone down 1% point?

J

SNP and Plaid Cymru aren't included, so they may have gone up. There will be some rounding, and possibly an increase in don't know/ won't vote.

[lapsedhibee]

Neil throws down gauntlet (or gives this victim plenty of time to prepare for the exam, by giving him the questions in advance)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679252

[Jack Hackett]

Neil throws down gauntlet (or gives this victim plenty of time to prepare for the exam, by giving him the questions in advance)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679252

Just saw that... and it was definitely a slap :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Neil throws down gauntlet (or gives this victim plenty of time to prepare for the exam, by giving him the questions in advance)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679252

Just watched it on catch-up. I thought Farage, as unlikeable he is, did well, in his terms.

Neil did give all the questions for Johnson away but I think that was bait and I think he can pin it down further. Neil is not stupid, nor are his researchers.

[Ozyhibby]

Just watched it on catch-up. I thought Farage, as unlikeable he is, did well, in his terms.

Neil did give all the questions for Johnson away but I think that was bait and I think he can pin it down further. Neil is not stupid, nor are his researchers.

Agree, it’s not the original questions he gets them on, it’s the follow ups to their answers.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/2060a6ec8cc6bfccf2c06bc0d528ae26.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/35ee769420a1a09aabd0e1e0fdd48d0e.png
Those results would be a great night for the SNP, an ok one for the Tories and a disaster for Labour.

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[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/2060a6ec8cc6bfccf2c06bc0d528ae26.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/35ee769420a1a09aabd0e1e0fdd48d0e.png
Those results would be a great night for the SNP, an ok one for the Tories and a disaster for Labour.

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Is there a strong model that plays that out for constituency bias? I appreciate that’s a big ask but it would be fascinating to see. The polling is straightforward, albeit interesting in itself, but won’t reflect what happens at a very local basis.

[Cataplana]

Another depressing episode of Question Time last night, that seemed to confirm that the Northern working class are going to vote Tory last night

It seems Boris shows leadership, he is prepared to take the tough decisions etc. It seems to me that these people have been ignored by successive governments for a reason, they don't have a clue about much.

I suspect a Tory landslide is on the cards.

[Peevemor]

Agree, it’s not the original questions he gets them on, it’s the follow ups to their answers.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkReminds me of "questions" in Parliament, when it was interesting.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there a strong model that plays that out for constituency bias? I appreciate that’s a big ask but it would be fascinating to see. The polling is straightforward, albeit interesting in itself, but won’t reflect what happens at a very local basis.

I doubt it very much. I think it’s only the 2nd Scottish Poll of the whole campaign.
If it was based on a uniform swing then Tories would likely go down to about 8 seats even though they are still on about 28%, same as last time. Labour would be down to 1 although maybe they get Kirkcaldy because of the SNP suspension? Lib Dems probably hold their 4 and maybe gain NE Fife as well? SNP would be looking at about 44/46 seats which would be at the high end of their expectations. Anything over 40 and they have had an amazing night.
Good chance that is the last Scottish Poll we see. This election will be won and lost in England and I can’t see money being spent on another Scottish Poll.


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[Pretty Boy]

Nice!

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/06/tory-candidate-says-disabled-people-paid-less-dont-understand-money-11280594/?ico=pushly-notifcation-small&utm_source=pushly

[bigwheel]

Nice!

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/06/tory-candidate-says-disabled-people-paid-less-dont-understand-money-11280594/?ico=pushly-notifcation-small&utm_source=pushly

It’s quite remarkable this isn’t it ...thinking it in the first place is bad enough , choosing to say it out loud ...a different level lack of insight and understanding

[AndyM_1875]

Another depressing episode of Question Time last night, that seemed to confirm that the Northern working class are going to vote Tory last night

It seems Boris shows leadership, he is prepared to take the tough decisions etc. It seems to me that these people have been ignored by successive governments for a reason, they don't have a clue about much.

I suspect a Tory landslide is on the cards.

I don't think it'll be a landslide but I think they'll win a majority which will be bad enough.
The north of England working classes voting for them is just beyond comprehension. Pure slugs voting for salt stuff. But they won't be so happy when the NHS has been destroyed.

[Ozyhibby]

Johnson confirms he won’t do Neil interview.


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[Cataplana]

I don't think it'll be a landslide but I think they'll win a majority which will be bad enough.
The north of England working classes voting for them is just beyond comprehension. Pure slugs voting for salt stuff. But they won't be so happy when the NHS has been destroyed.

I can guarantee when that happens it won't be their fault. Probably blame immigrants for making them take back their country.

[SHODAN]

Only change of killing the cowardly liar's majority is if Corbyn obliterates him in the debate tonight. He has to do it.

[Jones28]

Only change of killing the cowardly liar's majority is if Corbyn obliterates him in the debate tonight. He has to do it.

I’d love it to happen but I just can’t see Corbyn obliterating anything more challenging than a fish supper.

[lapsedhibee]

Is there a strong model that plays that out for constituency bias? I appreciate that’s a big ask but it would be fascinating to see. The polling is straightforward, albeit interesting in itself, but won’t reflect what happens at a very local basis.

Not saying it's a strong model likes, but Guardian, possibly aided by Curtice, suggesting these implications:

Seat projections from the poll see the SNP up from 35 to 46, Tories down from 13 to 8, the Lib Dems sticking at 4 and Labour losing all but one of their 7 Mps

[JeMeSouviens]

Britain Elects poll tracker - the Tories seem to have hit their ceiling while Lab are still climbing and the Libs falling. Still just under 10pt Tory lead though. Grim times.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELCYx5XWoAEYIO9?format=jpg&name=large

[matty_f]

Johnson confirms he won’t do Neil interview.


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*****bag (Johnson, not you! :greengrin )

Neil calling him out on it yesterday was magnificent. I have no real time for Neil but his video was scathing and damning and the fact that Johnson is running scared from him is very telling.

Johnson isn't a leader, he's not even a good politician. He's an opportunist who has somehow blagged his way to the top, but there's no substance to him whatsoever.

I can't get my head around why anyone would consider him a suitable candidate for Prime Minister.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/chrisinsilico/status/1202898683806855168
Wee bit of dog whistling for the racists.


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[Ozyhibby]

Is there a strong model that plays that out for constituency bias? I appreciate that’s a big ask but it would be fascinating to see. The polling is straightforward, albeit interesting in itself, but won’t reflect what happens at a very local basis.

On a flight so got a free Times.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/da623084387ee391416831d2b50ef26a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/041841b56a2e2e9a485a7ffef226a49d.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SHODAN]

As much as they like to pretend otherwise, all the new Tory votes in Scotland are just changing hands from Labour and given most of them are in the list seats (and therefore proportionally representative) it won't affect the SNP/Green seats too much. The beauty of proportional representation!

The only time votes could change hands from SNP to Tory are for those who prioritise Brexit over independence, and the proportion of people who do that is probably so small in number that they probably comprise literally the people pushed out by the Tory/MSM propaganda machine and no more.

[Future17]

As much as they like to pretend otherwise, all the new Tory votes in Scotland are just changing hands from Labour and given most of them are in the list seats (and therefore proportionally representative) it won't affect the SNP/Green seats too much. The beauty of proportional representation!

The only time votes could change hands from SNP to Tory are for those who prioritise Brexit over independence, and the proportion of people who do that is probably so small in number that they probably comprise literally the people pushed out by the Tory/MSM propaganda machine and no more.

I've maybe misunderstood your post, but proportional representation and list seats aren't relevant for this election. If any seats were to change from Labour to Conservative in Scotland, it could potentially be very significant for the SNP.

[CloudSquall]

I think with how marginal a lot of the seats are in Scotland there could be a few surprises based on how much of their vote each party gets out.

For the SNP it will come down to how much of that 500k in 2015 who decided not to vote in 2017 come out this time around.

[Future17]

https://twitter.com/chrisinsilico/status/1202898683806855168
Wee bit of dog whistling for the racists.

It turns out C4 got it wrong, so they've retracted and apologised. Of course, that doesn't change all the racist and homophobic things Johnson has said previously.

[CloudSquall]

Apart from the "principality" jibe some good reading about marginals in Scotland,

http://archive.is/I0SrI

[SHODAN]

I've maybe misunderstood your post, but proportional representation and list seats aren't relevant for this election. If any seats were to change from Labour to Conservative in Scotland, it could potentially be very significant for the SNP.

Apologies, I was referring to the 2021 Scottish election as per the post above mine.

[J-C]

Another depressing episode of Question Time last night, that seemed to confirm that the Northern working class are going to vote Tory last night

It seems Boris shows leadership, he is prepared to take the tough decisions etc. It seems to me that these people have been ignored by successive governments for a reason, they don't have a clue about much.

I suspect a Tory landslide is on the cards.

What I took from last night was people voted for Brexit but still have no real idea what will happen after, just get it done was the message. It really shows the enormous gulf between England and Scotland when it comes to Brexit and politics in general, we talk about policies etc, and all they want is getting us out the EU asap.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/06/lib-dems-deal-tories-jo-swinson-boris-johnson?CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
More Tory LibDem chat.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 32% (+4)
LDEM: 13% (-3)
GRN: 3% (-)
BREX: 2% (-1)

via @IpsosMORI, 02 - 04 Dec
Chgs. w/ Nov

[JeMeSouviens]

According to Professor Sir John Curtice (peace and very small standard deviations be upon him), if Lab are polling over 30% (looks nailed on now) then the Tories need a 6% or greater lead to get a majority.

It is still just about conceivable things could move that much. The 2017 final polls underestimated Lab by about 5 pts.

But still looks grim. :bitchy:

[Cataplana]

Apart from the "principality" jibe some good reading about marginals in Scotland,

http://archive.is/I0SrI

Why would anybody even think that was funny? Really childish and twisted sense of humour that.

Guy strikes me as the sort of Yam that never stops mentioning the Wee Team. When challenged it was just a wind up so that they could laugh at people taking the bait; left unchallenged it just feeds the delusion.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think it'll be a landslide but I think they'll win a majority which will be bad enough.
The north of England working classes voting for them is just beyond comprehension. Pure slugs voting for salt stuff. But they won't be so happy when the NHS has been destroyed.

Excellent alternative to Turkeys and Xmas. Like :greengrin

So true as well. It's almost tempting to wish Brexit to be as bad as I think it'll be just so the BBC can do vox pops with these same idiots finding out what they've brought on themselves. Sadly, we're all going to suffer though.

[SHODAN]

According to Professor Sir John Curtice (peace and very small standard deviations be upon him), if Lab are polling over 30% (looks nailed on now) then the Tories need a 6% or greater lead to get a majority.

It is still just about conceivable things could move that much. The 2017 final polls underestimated Lab by about 5 pts.

But still looks grim. :bitchy:

To shut Johnson out then what needs to happen is this: Labour + LD + SNP + PC + Green + TIG + SDLP + Alliance + anti-Brexit independents > Conservative + Brexit + DUP + UUP. It's entirely doable.

Were we to have proportonal representation this would almost definitely be the case, but our archaic system (which no other country in Europe uses, btw) ensures that widely disliked parties can claim a majority on 30% of the vote. It's a ****ing joke.

[JeMeSouviens]

To shut Johnson out then what needs to happen is this:

Labour + LD + SNP + PC + Green + TIG + SDLP + Alliance > Conservative + Brexit + DUP + UUP

It's entirely doable.

There won't be any TIGrs, Brexit or UUP and it's highly unlikely the DUP will support the Tories again.

It should just be Tories v Everybody else.

[JeMeSouviens]

To shut Johnson out then what needs to happen is this: Labour + LD + SNP + PC + Green + TIG + SDLP + Alliance + anti-Brexit independents > Conservative + Brexit + DUP + UUP. It's entirely doable.

Were we to have proportonal representation this would almost definitely be the case, but our archaic system (which no other country in Europe uses, btw) ensures that widely disliked parties can claim a majority on 30% of the vote. It's a ****ing joke.

Totally :agree:

[SHODAN]

There won't be any TIGrs, Brexit or UUP and it's highly unlikely the DUP will support the Tories again.

It should just be Tories v Everybody else.

The DUP will definitely support a Johnson government if Corbyn is the alternative, or will just stay neutral.

[marinello59]

What I took from last night was people voted for Brexit but still have no real idea what will happen after, just get it done was the message. It really shows the enormous gulf between England and Scotland when it comes to Brexit and politics in general, we talk about policies etc, and all they want is getting us out the EU asap.

We have let domestic policies.... the stuff that really affects our day to day lives.... be overshadowed by the constitutional issue for over 5 years now. We aren’t that different at all.

[JeMeSouviens]

We have let domestic policies.... the stuff that really affects our day to day lives.... be overshadowed by the constitutional issue for over 5 years now. We aren’t that different at all.

Well, we are and we're not. The same range of views is present throughout the UK, but to different extents in different bits.

This is quite interesting:

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/pol3d_main.html

It divides the UK population into "tribes" based on attitudes to economic left v right, nationalist v globalist and socially liberal v conservative.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/pol3d_ward_clusters.png

[SHODAN]

Well, we are and we're not. The same range of views is present throughout the UK, but to different extents in different bits.

This is quite interesting:

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/pol3d_main.html

It divides the UK population into "tribes" based on attitudes to economic left v right, nationalist v globalist and socially liberal v conservative.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/pol3d_ward_clusters.png

That's really interesting, and further serves to highlight the political divide between the constitutient countries of the UK.

To be honest, the biggest shock for me was finding out (according to the survey) that Larbert and Stenhousemuir lean Conservative! :shocked:

[Moulin Yarns]

Boris Johnson is a coward. He's running scared & claims he didn't even see Andrew Neil's evisceration of him on live TV last night. Today, someone kindly took a big screen and some loudspeakers to Tory HQ so he could hear what Mr Neil had to say... #GE2019 https://t.co/pJsJ2TedZX

[Moulin Yarns]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/06/uk/top-british-diplomat-quits-brexit-intl/index.html

[JeMeSouviens]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/06/uk/top-british-diplomat-quits-brexit-intl/index.html

o/t but how the hell do you end up being called Alexandra Hall Hall? Is it a double barreled amalgam of 2 Hall families? A middle name and a scarcity of imagination? :confused:

Can't argue with this though:


"I have been increasingly dismayed by the way in which our political leaders have tried to deliver Brexit, with reluctance to address honestly, even with our own citizens, the challenges and trade-offs which Brexit involves; the use of misleading or disingenuous arguments about the implications of the various options before us; and some behaviour towards our institutions, which, were it happening in another country, we would almost certainly as diplomats have received instructions to register our concern,"

[grunt]

o/t but how the hell do you end up being called Alexandra Hall Hall? I have to say it took me some time to get beyond this and actually read the article.
So good they named her twice?

[grunt]

When a former Conservative Prime Minister tells people not to vote for the current Conservative Prime Minister, you know that politics has gone awry.

[Moulin Yarns]

When a former Conservative Prime Minister tells people not to vote for the current Conservative Prime Minister, you know that politics has gone awry.

Tommy Robinson is endorsing Boris Johnson's Conservatives and former Conservative leader Sir John Major is not

[CloudSquall]

I think there will be a fairly large section of Boris' voter base who will love the idea of sticking it to the BBC by not doing the interview, it will probably strengthen his vote base if anything.

[Moulin Yarns]

Richard osman tweets

Despite repeated discussions with Conservative Central Offical I’m afraid Boris Johnson is running scared and refusing to appear on Pointless Celebrities. If he’d had the guts to appear I wanted to ask him about Kurt Russell films and to name a Christmas number one from the 1970s

[Mibbes Aye]

Not saying it's a strong model likes, but Guardian, possibly aided by Curtice, suggesting these implications:

Seat projections from the poll see the SNP up from 35 to 46, Tories down from 13 to 8, the Lib Dems sticking at 4 and Labour losing all but one of their 7 Mps


On a flight so got a free Times.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/da623084387ee391416831d2b50ef26a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/041841b56a2e2e9a485a7ffef226a49d.jpg


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Cheers guys.

I think it is probably a very detailed, complicated and complex task to accurately try and predict individual constituency outcomes from national polling. I am also resistant to the cult of Curtice. He has some credibility but he gets iivelrong at times, 2007 in particular.

[weecounty hibby]

It’s quite remarkable this isn’t it ...thinking it in the first place is bad enough , choosing to say it out loud ...a different level lack of insight and understanding
It's worse than that, she thought it, wrote it, said it in response to a question and then backed it up after that!! Unbelievable and as the father of a disabled child I am beyond furious. I didn't think my hatred for the Tories could get any worse but that right wing fascist has succeeded in doing that. Where next for disabled people? Forced labour? After all they don't care about the money it's only to give them an experience!
I am normally pretty tolerant about other people's politics and voting intentions but if you are considering voting Tory you need to have a think to yourself, they and their supporters are the lowest of the low

[JeMeSouviens]

Cheers guys.

I think it is probably a very detailed, complicated and complex task to accurately try and predict individual constituency outcomes from national polling. I am also resistant to the cult of Curtice. He has some credibility but he gets iivelrong at times, 2007 in particular.

BURN THE HERETIC!

:wink:

[CloudSquall]

I wish we would have these debates without the audience, turns it into a punch and judy show.

[SHODAN]

This debate is another draw so far.

[Colr]

It turns out C4 got it wrong, so they've retracted and apologised. Of course, that doesn't change all the racist and homophobic things Johnson has said previously.

Johnson is unlikely to use the expression “people of colour”.

He’s more of an n-word man unless he’s referring to piccaninnies.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Johnson calling Corbyn an IRA supporter over forty years is an outrage. I can't believe the accusation wasn't further investigated in the debate; Robinson just let it slide. Supporting a united Ireland does not make someone a supporter of PIRA, and the same goes in relation to Palestinian rights, which is another erroneous example of Corbyn being accused of supporting the murder of innocent people. I support a united Ireland and a free Palestine, but that doesn't mean I support political violence.

It's slander, but I fear Corbyn is just too polite and nice. He should have kicked off that moment. It was TV for idiots from Johnson; an appeal to knee jerk reaction.

[One Day Soon]

Johnson calling Corbyn an IRA supporter over forty years is an outrage. I can't believe the accusation wasn't further investigated in the debate; Robinson just let it slide. Supporting a united Ireland does not make someone a supporter of PIRA, and the same goes in relation to Palestinian rights, which is another erroneous example of Corbyn being accused of supporting the murder of innocent people. I support a united Ireland and a free Palestine, but that doesn't mean I support political violence.

It's slander, but I fear Corbyn is just too polite and nice. He should have kicked off that moment. It was TV for idiots from Johnson; an appeal to knee jerk reaction.


What could possibly be the reason for Corbyn's failure to challenge the claims that he is anti-semitic and consorts with terrorists? I wonder why he's never taken people to court over this sort of thing...

[cabbageandribs1875]

so, no comeback from jeremy when bawheid stated 1k/year more tax for someone on 20k, surely not

£80/month less in ones pockets....what a vote catcher that is

[Hibernia&Alba]

What could possibly be the reason for Corbyn's failure to challenge the claims that he is anti-semitic and consorts with terrorists? I wonder why he's never taken people to court over this sort of thing...

What evidence do you have that he has supported terrorism or anti-Semitism? Has he ever said anything which supports violence?

[Hibernia&Alba]

so, no comeback from jeremy when bawheid stated 1k/year more tax for someone on 20k, surely not

£80/month less in ones pockets....what a vote catcher that is

It is absolutely not true. Only the top five per cent of income earners will pay more under Labour; those below that will have more, especially the lowest paid via the living wage.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Johnson calling Corbyn an IRA supporter over forty years is an outrage. I can't believe the accusation wasn't further investigated in the debate; Robinson just let it slide. Supporting a united Ireland does not make someone a supporter of PIRA, and the same goes in relation to Palestinian rights, which is another erroneous example of Corbyn being accused of supporting the murder of innocent people. I support a united Ireland and a free Palestine, but that doesn't mean I support political violence.

It's slander, but I fear Corbyn is just too polite and nice. He should have kicked off that moment. It was TV for idiots from Johnson; an appeal to knee jerk reaction.



as much as i detest Doris it's the first time i've watched him get through a debate without the i,i,i's and but but buts, and err err err's, i thought he was quite confident, the laughter from the audience when he was asked the Q about lying politicians was quite funny :greengrin i doubt he will be walking through the commons on his knees as a punishment for lying politicians though

[Jones28]

Johnson calling Corbyn an IRA supporter over forty years is an outrage. I can't believe the accusation wasn't further investigated in the debate; Robinson just let it slide. Supporting a united Ireland does not make someone a supporter of PIRA, and the same goes in relation to Palestinian rights, which is another erroneous example of Corbyn being accused of supporting the murder of innocent people. I support a united Ireland and a free Palestine, but that doesn't mean I support political violence.

It's slander, but I fear Corbyn is just too polite and nice. He should have kicked off that moment. It was TV for idiots from Johnson; an appeal to knee jerk reaction.

Your last sentence is the reason the Tories will win.

[Future17]

Only the top five per cent of income earners will pay more under Labour; those below that will have more, especially the lowest paid via the living wage.

The living wage aspect would depend on personal circumstances, but Labour's plan to scrap the marriage allowance would mean many basic rate taxpayers paying more tax.

[Cataplana]

The living wage aspect would depend on personal circumstances, but Labour's plan to scrap the marriage allowance would mean many basic rate taxpayers paying more tax.

Would it not just result in bigger single allowances?

[Future17]

Would it not just result in bigger single allowances?

Sorry, not sure what you mean?

[Jones28]

The living wage aspect would depend on personal circumstances, but Labour's plan to scrap the marriage allowance would mean many basic rate taxpayers paying more tax.

I know that a saving is a saving, but £250 a year for a lot of people isn’t a huge amount and the circumstances of eligibility would imply that most households have a larger income on one side and could afford it no?

The Tories will bash on about it but if they turned round and said labours plans will cost eligible couples £250 a year it weakens their argument. £250 a year to nationalise and improve our rail, post and utilities, provide more support to the NHS and to improve our crumbling public services is nothing.

I don’t know but I would imagine the majority of people won’t be affected.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1202954135034875908

Interesting thread about the leak paper on NI border.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1202954135034875908

Interesting thread about the leak paper on NI border.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cataplana]

Sorry, not sure what you mean?

The money taken away from the married person's allowance would be used to increase the single person's allowance.

[CloudSquall]

Poll for Wrexham that hasn't voted Conservative in 100 years..


Wrexham Constituency Voting Intention:

CON: 44% (=)
LAB: 29% (-20)
PLC: 10% (+5)
BXP: 9% (+9)
LDM: 6% (+3)
GRN: 2% (=)

Via
@Survation
, 27-30 Nov.
Changes w/ GE2017.

[G B Young]

Johnson calling Corbyn an IRA supporter over forty years is an outrage. I can't believe the accusation wasn't further investigated in the debate; Robinson just let it slide. Supporting a united Ireland does not make someone a supporter of PIRA, and the same goes in relation to Palestinian rights, which is another erroneous example of Corbyn being accused of supporting the murder of innocent people. I support a united Ireland and a free Palestine, but that doesn't mean I support political violence.

It's slander, but I fear Corbyn is just too polite and nice. He should have kicked off that moment. It was TV for idiots from Johnson; an appeal to knee jerk reaction.

Corbyn doesn't strike me as polite and nice. Just weak and hopelessly ill equipped to be a party leader or, god forbid, a PM. He may not actually be an IRA supporter/terrorist sympathiser but it's his vagueness when questioned on such matters that sees so many voters unable to take him seriously. When asked about whether he condemns the IRA atrocities he'll never say 'yes I do' but instead come out with some catch-all phrase like 'I condemn all bombing'. He might argue that by saying that he is therefore condemning the IRA bombings but by refusing to explicitly condemn them you can see why he provides his critics with their ammunition.

He also often comes across as simply a bit daft. During the Salisbury poisonings saga his suggestion that the samples be sent back to Russia to do their own analysis just made him look ridiculous.

Finally, the fact he can't seem to lay a glove on a PM as divisive as Johnson sums up his overall ineptitude.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191207/ea98fad1141acccee117ab54a60f607d.jpg

Polls tightening?


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191207/ea98fad1141acccee117ab54a60f607d.jpg

Polls tightening?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

6 points. That's getting into hung parliament territory.

[Mibbes Aye]

6 points. That's getting into hung parliament territory.

It all depends on the spread.

Corbynistas will tell you starry-eyed tales about their share of the popular vote, and vote shift, in 2017.

Both were similar to Blair in 1997 and 2001.

Blair delivered Labour majorities of 150+ both times.

Corbyn finished 50+ seats behind Theresa May.

There is no point getting ten thousand more votes in Islington, when you need five thousand more votes in Nuneaton.

[SHODAN]

It all depends on the spread.

Corbynistas will tell you starry-eyed tales about their share of the popular vote, and vote shift, in 2017.

Both were similar to Blair in 1997 and 2001.

Blair delivered Labour majorities of 150+ both times.

Corbyn finished 50+ seats behind Theresa May.

There is no point getting ten thousand more votes in Islington, when you need five thousand more votes in Nuneaton.

The last point is key: I think this shift is centrists and Lib Dem voters grudgingly accepting they will have to vote Labour in marginals, on advice of Major and Blair.

[The Harp Awakes]

6 points. That's getting into hung parliament territory.

I watched the Johnson and Corbyn face off on Friday night with a fairly open mind. I would never consider voting for either of their parties next week but watching the debate it was obvious that Corbyn, whatever you think of his politics or leadership qualities, is miles ahead of Johnson in terms of trustworthiness.

Corbyn seems a genuinely decent human being whereas you wouldn't trust Johnson as far as you could throw him. I suspect the polls will narrow more as Thursday approaches.

[murray26]

What evidence do you have that he has supported terrorism or anti-Semitism? Has he ever said anything which supports violence?

Your not wanting evidence are you..? The media has brainwashed everyone into believing it’s true so it must be.. don’t question them it’s not as if they are biased or anything.

[grunt]

More from the excellent @LedByDonkeys team

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1203626262020984833 (https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1203626262020984833)

[Cataplana]

More from the excellent @LedByDonkeys team

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1203626262020984833 (https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1203626262020984833)

More patronising nonsense. Nobody ever talks about paying the staff more.

[grunt]

More patronising nonsense. Nobody ever talks about paying the staff more.
Thanks for your input.

[Cataplana]

Thanks for your input.

Thank you for yours. I am only echoing what you will hear from NHS workers every day. People fed up of being used as a political football, while their salaries have gone backwards for 10 years.

If politicians care about the NHS, they will have a radical rethink, about how to retain staff, and salary would be a massive part of that.

NHS workers are people's favourite virtue signal, alongside the homeless, the disabled, ex servicemen and food banks.

[grunt]

Thank you for yours. I am only echoing what you will hear from NHS workers every day. People fed up of being used as a political football, while their salaries have gone backwards for 10 years.

If politicians care about the NHS, they will have a radical rethink, about how to retain staff, and salary would be a massive part of that.

NHS workers are people's favourite virtue signal, alongside the homeless, the disabled, ex servicemen and food banks.Who will be better for the NHS staff - Johnson or Corbyn?

[Cataplana]

Who will be better for the NHS staff - Johnson or Corbyn?

I detect a slight change of emphasis here.

Ask the NHS staff. Neither has promised much change in pay or conditions

For me the politician that would be best would be the one brave enough to open a conversation with all stakeholders about what the service can realistically provide.

[marinello59]

Your not wanting evidence are you..? The media has brainwashed everyone into believing it’s true so it must be.. don’t question them it’s not as if they are biased or anything.

I have never actually met anyone that the media has brainwashed. I know plenty of people who have used the information available to form different opinions from my own though.
Anybody here like to put their hands up to having been brainwashed? :greengrin

[Cataplana]

I have never actually met anyone that the media has brainwashed. I know plenty of people who have used the information available to form different opinions from my own though.
Anybody here like to put their hands up to having been brainwashed? :greengrin

I bought a Betamax VCR and still can't explain why.

[marinello59]

It all depends on the spread.

Corbynistas will tell you starry-eyed tales about their share of the popular vote, and vote shift, in 2017.

Both were similar to Blair in 1997 and 2001.

Blair delivered Labour majorities of 150+ both times.

Corbyn finished 50+ seats behind Theresa May.

There is no point getting ten thousand more votes in Islington, when you need five thousand more votes in Nuneaton.

In a nutshell.

[grunt]

I detect a slight change of emphasis here.
Ask the NHS staff. Neither has promised much change in pay or conditions
For me the politician that would be best would be the one brave enough to open a conversation with all stakeholders about what the service can realistically provide.I think the point of the video I posted is that the NHS staff in that video were saying that they don't trust Johnson. I posted it because I thought it was done in an entertaining and eye-catching way. I haven't changed emphasis at all, but if you think I have, then fine.

I simply liked the video and posted it here.

[Cataplana]

As the big day approaches, what are people's thoughts on what the turnout will be?

[Ozyhibby]

I think turnout will be good but no idea if that will change the result in any meaningful way.


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[Cataplana]

I think the point of the video I posted is that the NHS staff in that video were saying that they don't trust Johnson. I posted it because I thought it was done in an entertaining and eye-catching way. I haven't changed emphasis at all, but if you think I have, then fine.

I simply liked the video and posted it here.

Believe me, the big conversations in the NHS in Scotland, do not centre on fear of privatisation. They are generally on two subjects - pay, and unrealistic public expectations.

I'm glad you liked the film, I just wanted to give a bit of perspective. The people in the film are good guys, and I hope that they will lend their energies to getting s better deal for staff, and service users.

PS I should add that a distaste for all politicians comes a close third.

[marinello59]

I bought a Betamax VCR and still can't explain why.

Are you still using it?

[Cataplana]

I think turnout will be good but no idea if that will change the result in any meaningful way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tend to agree. I believe Christmas and the weather will impact on it though.

[Cataplana]

Are you still using it?

Only to play this tape where a guy repeatedly says "Buy Sony."

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-ready-to-cash-in-on-free-access-to-nhs-data-bbzp52n5m

While we are on the subject of the NHS it looks like the Tories have given access to all the data it holds to amazon for free. Whether you agree with them giving access or not, surely it should have at least charged for it?


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[Cataplana]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-ready-to-cash-in-on-free-access-to-nhs-data-bbzp52n5m

While we are on the subject of the NHS it looks like the Tories have given access to all the data it holds to amazon for free. Whether you agree with them giving access or not, surely it should have at least charged for it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But, Amazon pays so much tax to the UK, that you'd think they should be entitled to some sort of freebie in return.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191208/b7fa870698cb53668e1390a83fbea3b1.jpg

Bit of a tighter poll for the SNP here. Only one I’ve seen with them below 40%. Would still see gains but maybe only about 40 seats.


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[CloudSquall]

Matt Hancock getting it tight for an Instagram-esque tweet about contemplating the union in Fraserbrough :greengrin

https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1203654807057305600

https://twitter.com/eldiningroomi/status/1203672429794607107

[Moulin Yarns]

Matt Hancock getting it tight for an Instagram-esque tweet about contemplating the union in Fraserbrough :greengrin

https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1203654807057305600

https://twitter.com/eldiningroomi/status/1203672429794607107

Matt Hancock covers the Otis Reading classic Shi tting on the Dock of the Bay

[lapsedhibee]

Matt Hancock getting it tight for an Instagram-esque tweet about contemplating the union in Fraserbrough :greengrin

https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1203654807057305600

https://twitter.com/eldiningroomi/status/1203672429794607107

:greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

I think turnout will be good but no idea if that will change the result in any meaningful way.


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The weather will have a very large say in turnout, as it's a pretty dismal forecast for the big day. There has been a huge surge of 5 million new registrations to vote since the election was called, and it's estimated that 65% are under 35. Bad weather will be a disincentive mainly to the elderly and those who'd prefer to watch 'I'm a Celebrity...'

It's not over 'til the fat philandering liar sings

[JoeT]

Pretty annoyed that the Tories could not put up someone for the channel 4 debate tonight. Are they not interested in telling us about their policies on child poverty, social care, mental health support, food banks etc.?

[lapsedhibee]

Pretty annoyed that the Tories could not put up someone for the channel 4 debate tonight. Are they not interested in telling us about their policies on child poverty, social care, mental health support, food banks etc.?

Their policies on all these things are to get Brexit done.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Pretty annoyed that the Tories could not put up someone for the channel 4 debate tonight. Are they not interested in telling us about their policies on child poverty, social care, mental health support, food banks etc.?

They have dodged so many debates and interviews it's a scandal. Their record is indefensible and they know it, so how the hell can such a shower be on course for a majority? They are despicable to me.

[JimBHibees]

I have never actually met anyone that the media has brainwashed. I know plenty of people who have used the information available to form different opinions from my own though.
Anybody here like to put their hands up to having been brainwashed? :greengrin

They don't know they've been brainwashed that is the point. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191209/8b46d2b6249c894cb81fdea42799fb78.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cataplana]

The weather will have a very large say in turnout, as it's a pretty dismal forecast for the big day. There has been a huge surge of 5 million new registrations to vote since the election was called, and it's estimated that 65% are under 35. Bad weather will be a disincentive mainly to the elderly and those who'd prefer to watch 'I'm a Celebrity...'

It's not over 'til the fat philandering liar sings

The elderly will be there come hell or high water, IMO. When you get to that age, there are very few times people listen to what you say. It's one of their only ways they can exercise any power at all.

[Bristolhibby]

The elderly will be there come hell or high water, IMO. When you get to that age, there are very few times people listen to what you say. It's one of their only ways they can exercise any power at all.

Plus, if I were old I’d get a Postal Vote. In fact, I need to set a postal vote up for the next time.

J

[lapsedhibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191209/8b46d2b6249c894cb81fdea42799fb78.png


If this turns out to be accurate, it will be interesting to see what the ruling cabal uses to distract the electorate when the promised 40 new hospitals, 50000 more nurses, 20000 more polis, etc, don't appear. An armed struggle at the other side of the world would usually suffice, but I'm not sure the forces' equipment is up to that now. Maybe reheat a civil war closer to home? :dunno:

[Cataplana]

If this turns out to be accurate, it will be interesting to see what the ruling cabal uses to distract the electorate when the promised 40 new hospitals, 50000 more nurses, 20000 more polis, etc, don't appear. An armed struggle at the other side of the world would usually suffice, but I'm not sure the forces' equipment is up to that now. Maybe reheat a civil war closer to home? :dunno:

The electorate can't remember what they were doing last week.

If there is one thing that has come out of this, it's how politically and intellectually inept middle England is. Cummings has played them for fools.

[One Day Soon]

They have dodged so many debates and interviews it's a scandal. Their record is indefensible and they know it, so how the hell can such a shower be on course for a majority? They are despicable to me.


Surely it's not that much of a mystery? The hard left vanity project that is 'Ohhhhhhhh Je-re-my Cor-byn' wows the Kool Aiders and largely repels the voting public.

These people have almost certainly gift wrapped the Tories another 5 years in government, facilitated the elevation of perhaps the most unfit for office Prime Minister we will have seen in over 100 years and sold the poorest people in the country down the river while they themselves are largely insulated from the consequences of it all: snug, smug and secure in their affluent political purity.

And once Corbyn is gone he'll be replaced by another Momentum puppet/muppet who has to pay lip service to the Corbyn agenda, controlled in the same way that McCluskey and Unite do Corbyn.

The only upside will be the return to obscure irrelevance of people like luxury socialist Andrew Philip Drummond-Murray. In his case it must be nice to come from a £50 million Picasso-selling family, spending your days playing Wolfie Smith and knowing that no matter what happens your pampered ass is safe from the consequences of your own political joy ride.

[One Day Soon]

The electorate can't remember what they were doing last week.

If there is one thing that has come out of this, it's how politically and intellectually inept middle England is. Cummings has played them for fools.

That kind of assumption about the electorate is a big part of what has gotten our politics to where it is today. Middle England is facing a choice between Corbyn or Johnson. 5hit or 5hitter.

Cummings has played Labour for fools, though Labour have played themselves for bigger fools.

[Just_Jimmy]

That kind of assumption about the electorate is a big part of what has gotten our politics to where it is today. Middle England is facing a choice between Corbyn or Johnson. 5hit or 5hitter.

Cummings has played Labour for fools, though Labour have played themselves for bigger fools.Exactly. However some of the conversation I hear around me on a daily basis from those who are supposed to be intelligent are depressing.

We'll get lumped with the Tories because labour couldn't field someone electable. That's 100% what this will come down to.

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[Ozyhibby]

Surely it's not that much of a mystery? The hard left vanity project that is 'Ohhhhhhhh Je-re-my Cor-byn' wows the Kool Aiders and largely repels the voting public.

These people have almost certainly gift wrapped the Tories another 5 years in government, facilitated the elevation of perhaps the most unfit for office Prime Minister we will have seen in over 100 years and sold the poorest people in the country down the river while they themselves are largely insulated from the consequences of it all: snug, smug and secure in their affluent political purity.

And once Corbyn is gone he'll be replaced by another Momentum puppet/muppet who has to pay lip service to the Corbyn agenda, controlled in the same way that McCluskey and Unite do Corbyn.

The only upside will be the return to obscure irrelevance of people like luxury socialist Andrew Philip Drummond-Murray. In his case it must be nice to come from a £50 million Picasso-selling family, spending your days playing Wolfie Smith and knowing that no matter what happens your pampered ass is safe from the consequences of your own political joy ride.

100% agree. The one thing the hard left are very good at is delivering right wing governments.


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[Cataplana]

Exactly. However some of the conversation I hear around me on a daily basis from those who are supposed to be intelligent are depressing.

We'll get lumped with the Tories because labour couldn't field someone electable. That's 100% what this will come down to.

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People have voted to fix a problem they cant identify with a solution they don't understand.

Their decisions seem to be based on returning to some nostalgic version of the past. It's like passing legislation forcing clubs to play 70s disco music, because there was less violence and drug taking back then.

[Just_Jimmy]

People have voted to fix a problem they cant identify with a solution they don't understand.

Their decisions seem to be based on returning to some nostalgic version of the past. It's like passing legislation forcing clubs to play 70s disco music, because there was less violence and drug taking back then.Interesting way of putting it and i believe you're not far off.

There's a reason that decisions of this magnitude shouldn't be left to the people.

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[Cataplana]

Interesting way of putting it and i believe you're not far off.

There's a reason that decisions of this magnitude shouldn't be left to the people.

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Time to end the disastrous democratic experiment.

[Just_Jimmy]

Time to end the disastrous democratic experiment.Ha sorry I was referring to Brexit.



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[marinello59]

Interesting way of putting it and i believe you're not far off.

There's a reason that decisions of this magnitude shouldn't be left to the people.

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It's the total failure of those who voted remain to understand just why people voted leave that us got us here. Smugly dismissing them as being too stupid, too racist etc to understand just what they were doing and assuming that once we told them the error of their ways they would change their mind has proved costly.
Whether we liked it or not over half of the population of our islands felt compelled to vote to leave a system they felt wasn't working for them. You can't dismiss democracy just because you fail to win the argument, a lesson the LibDems should already be taking on board given that their policy of revoking Article 50 without another referendum has not gone done well with people on either side of the debate. It's a mess but this weak generation of politicians should be shouldering most of the blame, not the system.

[Cataplana]

It's the total failure of those who voted remain to understand just why people voted leave that us got us here. Smugly dismissing them as being too stupid, too racist etc to understand just what they were doing and assuming that once we told them the error of their ways they would change their mind has proved costly.
Whether we liked it or not over half of the population of our islands felt compelled to vote to leave a system they felt wasn't working for them. You can't dismiss democracy just because you fail to win the argument, a lesson the LibDems should already be taking on board given that their policy of revoking Article 50 without another referendum has not gone done well with people on either side of the debate. It's a mess but this weak generation of politicians should be shouldering most of the blame, not the system.

I think that argunent would hold a lot more water if we had not spent the last three years working out what Brexit is

On one hand we could leave the EU with all the existing rules in place: on the other we could break all the ties in one go.

Both are leaving the EU, and delivering what the people voted for. It is the unwillingness to admit that they voted for a concept rather than a plan that dismays me.

On QT we often get an audience member that says politicians think they are stupid, then proceed to confirm why that is.

[Just_Jimmy]

It's the total failure of those who voted remain to understand just why people voted leave that us got us here. Smugly dismissing them as being too stupid, too racist etc to understand just what they were doing and assuming that once we told them the error of their ways they would change their mind has proved costly.
Whether we liked it or not over half of the population of our islands felt compelled to vote to leave a system they felt wasn't working for them. You can't dismiss democracy just because you fail to win the argument, a lesson the LibDems should already be taking on board given that their policy of revoking Article 50 without another referendum has not gone done well with people on either side of the debate. It's a mess but this weak generation of politicians should be shouldering most of the blame, not the system.17.whatever million is not half the population. However the rest of what you say is very true.


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[Green Man]

I was amused to receive a letter from my local SNP candidate, personally addressed to me, talking about how she is under 30 herself and will be a champion for young people here. I’m flattered that she counts me among her target audience, but I think her info is a bit off.

[marinello59]

17.whatever million is not half the population. However the rest of what you say is very true.


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Fair point. Schoolboy error from me . :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Say what you like about the Tories (I regularly do :wink:) but they are the masters of self parody:

https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1203654807057305600

:rolleyes:

[CloudSquall]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-and-scottish-independence-have-the-marginal-seat-of-lanark-amp-hamilton-east-feeling-blue-09k8qjnpx?shareToken=280847ce07d806d8446579ba70aa6 ba6


A rather depressing article about the Lanark and Hamilton East seat with a quote from the Tory candidate below that left me speechless,

""Shona Haslam, 44, leader of Border council and the Conservative candidate, trooping around a Larkhall housing estate, is cautiously optimistic. “This is a solid unionist, royalist, Rangers-supporting heartland,” she says. “People feel let down by Labour, and think a deal’s been done over a second independence referendum"


I wouldn't be surprised if they door step with a sash on promising to follow on to Dublin.

[matty_f]

I have never actually met anyone that the media has brainwashed. I know plenty of people who have used the information available to form different opinions from my own though.
Anybody here like to put their hands up to having been brainwashed? :greengrin

Generally agree with the point you're making here, but how many people are easily able to filter out the noise from the 'truth' (and whose truth is it, anyway?).

Take the portrayal of Corbyn as an example -if you ask people (and this thread has plenty of evidence of this) what you think of him, you'll see phrases like "weak" "not a leader" "anti-semetic", "terrorist sympathiser" etc - that's a narrative that has been pushed consistently over a prolonged period of time by the right-wing press, to the point where it's practically accepted wisdom.

"People just want Brexit done/ to get on with Brexit" is another one that has gained traction and people are happy to accept it, in fact, I know people who were staunch remainers who now have moved to "just wish they'd do it" after being fed this line long enough.

If you watch The Great Hack on Netflix, you can see how much subtle (and not so subtle) influencing goes on, most of it right under our noses and without us even giving it a moment's thought.

So you're right to credit people with more intelligence than to simply be brainwashed, however I think that everyone is influenced to some degree, depending on the individual, and there will definitely be people who have formed their opinions not on researched and objective information, but on agenda led narratives.

[matty_f]

It's the total failure of those who voted remain to understand just why people voted leave that us got us here. Smugly dismissing them as being too stupid, too racist etc to understand just what they were doing and assuming that once we told them the error of their ways they would change their mind has proved costly.
Whether we liked it or not over half of the population of our islands felt compelled to vote to leave a system they felt wasn't working for them. You can't dismiss democracy just because you fail to win the argument, a lesson the LibDems should already be taking on board given that their policy of revoking Article 50 without another referendum has not gone done well with people on either side of the debate. It's a mess but this weak generation of politicians should be shouldering most of the blame, not the system.

It's not true that over half the population voted to leave. Over half of those that chose to vote, yes, but nowhere near half the population. Nobody's brainwashed, though :wink: (that is meant as a joke, by the way, just for the avoidance of doubt :greengrin).

[marinello59]

It's not true that over half the population voted to leave. Over half of those that chose to vote, yes, but nowhere near half the population. Nobody's brainwashed, though :wink: (that is meant as a joke, by the way, just for the avoidance of doubt :greengrin).

I make a basic error and everybody is queuing up to put me right. :greengrin

[matty_f]

I make a basic error and everybody is queuing up to put me right. :greengrin

That sounds like a typical evening in my house :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Generally agree with the point you're making here, but how many people are easily able to filter out the noise from the 'truth' (and whose truth is it, anyway?).

Take the portrayal of Corbyn as an example -if you ask people (and this thread has plenty of evidence of this) what you think of him, you'll see phrases like "weak" "not a leader" "anti-semetic", "terrorist sympathiser" etc - that's a narrative that has been pushed consistently over a prolonged period of time by the right-wing press, to the point where it's practically accepted wisdom.

"People just want Brexit done/ to get on with Brexit" is another one that has gained traction and people are happy to accept it, in fact, I know people who were staunch remainers who now have moved to "just wish they'd do it" after being fed this line long enough.

If you watch The Great Hack on Netflix, you can see how much subtle (and not so subtle) influencing goes on, most of it right under our noses and without us even giving it a moment's thought.

So you're right to credit people with more intelligence than to simply be brainwashed, however I think that everyone is influenced to some degree, depending on the individual, and there will definitely be people who have formed their opinions not on researched and objective information, but on agenda led narratives.


True. But then some of us have had to deal with this deeply unpleasant man at first hand and speak from personal experience. If anything I'd say that he's probably worse than he's portrayed, in almost every regard.

[One Day Soon]

I make a basic error and everybody is queuing up to put me right. :greengrin

Yeah, but are you aware that it wasn't over half of the population...

[CloudSquall]

Boris takes a reporter's phone from him and puts it in his pocket to avoid looking at a photo.

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736


It's rather worrying that he feels he can just take something off of someone and put it in his pocket without even flinching, no emotion shown whatsoever.

[Cataplana]

Boris takes a reporter's phone from him and puts it in his pocket to avoid looking at a photo.

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736


It's rather worrying that he feels he can just take something off of someone and put it in his pocket without even flinching, no emotion shown whatsoever.

What's worrying is that after centuries of being treated like that by his class, the English people still doff their forelocks to them.


People who grinned themselves to death
Smiled so much, they failed to take a breath
And even when their kids were starving
They all thought the queen was charming

[JimBHibees]

True. But then some of us have had to deal with this deeply unpleasant man at first hand and speak from personal experience. If anything I'd say that he's probably worse than he's portrayed, in almost every regard.

Care to share your experience?

[Curried]

True. But then some of us have had to deal with this deeply unpleasant man at first hand and speak from personal experience. If anything I'd say that he's probably worse than he's portrayed, in almost every regard.
https://y.yarn.co/4b78944b-403a-4e42-8e63-545c8e17f701_text_hi.gif

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191209/a207d50544a10807e7f17d0b320f7ef1.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191209/a207d50544a10807e7f17d0b320f7ef1.jpg


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Ozy, might appear to be a stupid question (I'm sure it probably is) but how much weight can be given to these poll results given they don't include the third biggest party, the SNP?

[JeMeSouviens]

Ozy, might appear to be a stupid question (I'm sure it probably is) but how much weight can be given to these poll results given they don't include the third biggest party, the SNP?

The SNP will be included in the numbers, just not explicitly called out in ICM's press release.

[Ozyhibby]

Ozy, might appear to be a stupid question (I'm sure it probably is) but how much weight can be given to these poll results given they don't include the third biggest party, the SNP?

Scotland pretty much needs a separate poll.


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[matty_f]

Scotland pretty much needs a separate poll.


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But if we're not included in that one then it's fairly redundant, no? Are Wales and NI included?

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest Tory leads from the different pollsters:

ICM +6
ComRes +8
BMG +9
Panelbase +9
Yougov +10
Deltapoll +11
IpsosMORI +12
TNS +12
Survation +14
Opinium +15

Apart from TNS, they're all within the last few days. Bleak.

[JeMeSouviens]

But if we're not included in that one then it's fairly redundant, no? Are Wales and NI included?

We are. Wales are. NI aren't.

[Ozyhibby]

Latest Tory leads from the different pollsters:

ICM +6
ComRes +8
BMG +9
Panelbase +9
Yougov +10
Deltapoll +11
IpsosMORI +12
TNS +12
Survation +14
Opinium +15

Apart from TNS, they're all within the last few days. Bleak.

Yip. It will be full steam ahead for brexit in January.


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[SHODAN]

Latest Tory leads from the different pollsters:

ICM +6
ComRes +8
BMG +9
Panelbase +9
Yougov +10
Deltapoll +11
IpsosMORI +12
TNS +12
Survation +14
Opinium +15

Apart from TNS, they're all within the last few days. Bleak.

The final polls before the 2017 election (actual result: +2.5) were as follows:
Qriously -2
Survation +1
****ar Public +5
YouGov +7
IpsosMORI +8
Panelbase +8
ComRes +10
ICM +12
BMG +13

The average now compared to then is probably +3/4 to the Tories, which would give a result of +6 if they're as equally wrong as they were before. If we can whittle that down in the next few days (i.e. if Millenials/Gen Z GO OUT AND ****ING VOTE) we might be able to force another hung parliament. Every poll except one hugely underestimated the Labour vote.

[matty_f]

The SNP will be included in the numbers, just not explicitly called out in ICM's press release.

Why would they do that? You'll have a significant number of seats going to the SNP, and I would think they'll likely end up with more than the Lib Dems, who are included.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why would they do that? You'll have a significant number of seats going to the SNP, and I would think they'll likely end up with more than the Lib Dems, who are included.

True. I guess the folk they're aiming the poll at don't care? The SNP pretty much always scores 3 or 4% in UK wide polls and the Scottish part of the sample will probably be about 85 people, so it wouldn't tell us much anyway.

[marinello59]

That sounds like a typical evening in my house :greengrin

And mine. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Yeah, but are you aware that it wasn't over half of the population...

**** off. :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Just had the misfortune of seeing the Tories up here’s broadcast. I’m still not sure what their position on indyref 2 is :faf::faf::faf::faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

It's the total failure of those who voted remain to understand just why people voted leave that us got us here. Smugly dismissing them as being too stupid, too racist etc to understand just what they were doing and assuming that once we told them the error of their ways they would change their mind has proved costly.
Whether we liked it or not over half of the population of our islands felt compelled to vote to leave a system they felt wasn't working for them. You can't dismiss democracy just because you fail to win the argument, a lesson the LibDems should already be taking on board given that their policy of revoking Article 50 without another referendum has not gone done well with people on either side of the debate. It's a mess but this weak generation of politicians should be shouldering most of the blame, not the system.

I see Boris is wooing these not too stupid or racist types again by tweeting that "EU nationals have been treating the UK like their home for too long". How dare all these pesky foreign nurses and doctors try and get their feet under the table.

Like it or not but Farage and Johnson play to a large element of stupid people and racists, and rather successfully as the polls are showing.

[Future17]

I see Boris is wooing these not too stupid or racist types again by tweeting that "EU nationals have been treating the UK like their home for too long". How dare all these pesky foreign nurses and doctors try and get their feet under the table.

Like it or not but Farage and Johnson play to a large element of stupid people and racists, and rather successfully as the polls are showing.

I just checked his Twitter feed and can't find that quote?

[lapsedhibee]

I just checked his Twitter feed and can't find that quote?

Not sure if it was a tweet but being reported in The Independent, New Statesman and Guardian.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-eu-migrants-immigration-britain-general-election-a9238941.html

[Hibrandenburg]

I just checked his Twitter feed and can't find that quote?

Apologies, seems you're correct. It was brought to my attention via a tweet but there's a few papers reporting it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure if it was a tweet but being reported in The Independent, New Statesman and Guardian.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-eu-migrants-immigration-britain-general-election-a9238941.html


Thanks for the correction and link.

[Future17]

Apologies, seems you're correct. It was brought to my attention via a tweet but there's a few papers reporting it.

I refuse to accept your apology...reading Johnson's Twitter feed is something I'm unlikely to recover from soon! :wink:

The quote in question appears to be: "over the last couple of decades or more... we’ve seen quite a large numbers of people coming in from the whole of the EU […] able to treat the UK basically as though it’s part of their own country. And the problem with that is that there’s basically been no control at all. And I don’t think that is democratically accountable.”

Nothing particularly surprising there I don't think.

[lapsedhibee]

I refuse to accept your apology...reading Johnson's Twitter feed is something I'm unlikely to recover from soon! :wink:

The quote in question appears to be: "over the last couple of decades or more... we’ve seen quite a large numbers of people coming in from the whole of the EU […] able to treat the UK basically as though it’s part of their own country. And the problem with that is that there’s basically been no control at all. And I don’t think that is democratically accountable.”

Nothing particularly surprising there I don't think.

Wtf does 'democratically accountable' mean in this context? Successive governments up until this one have wanted to remain in the EU with its rules, and now the one that wants to leave the EU is up for re-election. Where's the lack of democratic accountability?

[Future17]

Wtf does 'democratically accountable' mean in this context? Successive governments up until this one have wanted to remain in the EU with its rules, and now the one that wants to leave the EU is up for re-election. Where's the lack of democratic accountability?

I struggled with that too. I think what he means is that, as EU migration could not be controlled with Britain in the EU, no party could stand for election on a platform of curbing it. Post-Brexit, parties will be able to include EU citizens in their immigration manifesto policies, thereby making it "democratically accountable".

[Glory Lurker]

Wtf does 'democratically accountable' mean in this context? Successive governments up until this one have wanted to remain in the EU with its rules, and now the one that wants to leave the EU is up for re-election. Where's the lack of democratic accountability?

And what of UK citizens that have gone to other parts of the EU?

Sturgeon called it out as dog whistle, and she’s not wrong.

[lapsedhibee]

I struggled with that too. I think what he means is that, as EU migration could not be controlled with Britain in the EU, no party could stand for election on a platform of curbing it. Post-Brexit, parties will be able to include EU citizens in their immigration manifesto policies, thereby making it "democratically accountable".

Aye, you might be right. Simpler if he'd just said that the UK would be taking back control, though, or is that three-word slogan now discredited in some way? :dunno:

[SHODAN]

Couple of +6 and +7 polls again.

[Hibrandenburg]

I refuse to accept your apology...reading Johnson's Twitter feed is something I'm unlikely to recover from soon! :wink:

:faf:

[stokesmessiah]

The bile on FB etc is such depressing reading these days. I am really interested in politics and have my views but the birth of the keyboard warriors is something I find hard going. Everything has become so polarised these days and there
Is very little grey area any more.

[Hiber-nation]

The bile on FB etc is such depressing reading these days. I am really interested in politics and have my views but the birth of the keyboard warriors is something I find hard going. Everything has become so polarised these days and there
Is very little grey area any more.

Yep. Saw some nonsense post on Facebook from an ex workmate who I thought I'd ditched spewing a pack of far right racist lies. I informed him that it was fake news. His response? "So what??".

[lord bunberry]

Yep. Saw some nonsense post on Facebook from an ex workmate who I thought I'd ditched spewing a pack of far right racist lies. I informed him that it was fake news. His response? "So what??".
That’s the reason I ditched Facebook a couple of years ago. When most people joined up we spent so much of the first part friending all the people we’ve ever met or went to school with. Eventually you realise that although you knew these people for the most part you were never friends. You didn’t care what they thought or what they were doing, but all of a sudden you’re subjected to both. I decided to sign up to Twitter but made a rule that I wouldn’t follow anyone I knew, best thing I ever did regarding social media.

[One Day Soon]

That’s the reason I ditched Facebook a couple of years ago. When most people joined up we spent so much of the first part friending all the people we’ve ever met or went to school with. Eventually you realise that although you knew these people for the most part you were never friends. You didn’t care what they thought or what they were doing, but all of a sudden you’re subjected to both. I decided to sign up to Twitter but made a rule that I wouldn’t follow anyone I knew, best thing I ever did regarding social media.

I don't do Facebook for the very reasons you post. It's at its worst when you see a relative - or someone else you thought you knew - post something that you just can't get past afterwards. We really don't need to know what EVERYONE thinks about EVERYTHING. Social media has a lot to answer for.

[grunt]

I struggled with that too. I think what he means is that, as EU migration could not be controlled with Britain in the EU, no party could stand for election on a platform of curbing it. Post-Brexit, parties will be able to include EU citizens in their immigration manifesto policies, thereby making it "democratically accountable".

EU migration *can* be controlled by the UK from within the EU. Belgium and other EU countries operate controls over who may stay on their countries. It's just that the UK never put in place such controls. So the very premise that we can't manage EU migration while being a member of the EU is, as I understand it, fake news.

I could of course be wrong.

[lord bunberry]

I don't do Facebook for the very reasons you post. It's at its worst when you see a relative - or someone else you thought you knew - post something that you just can't get past afterwards. We really don't need to know what EVERYONE thinks about EVERYTHING. Social media has a lot to answer for.
100%. Social media is a good thing I think as it gives everyone an opinion. What I can’t stand is people living their life through social media, you have couples who are in the same room communicating via Facebook.
I love this site because I can disagree with someone on one subject but agree with them on another. I make a point of not looking at posters names when I’m posting so that my reply is not based on whatever they’ve posted before, obviously that’s not going to happen all the time because I’m not blind, but I do try.

The reason I love this site is not because of our shared love of hibs, its the other things. The best example I can give is that I completely disagree with almost everything Mibbies Aye says on the holy ground, but I look forward to his posts on the cricket and regularly interact with him on the other sports forum. Another example is patch who is an Uber driver, a direct rival to me work wise and we will never agree on the subject, but we both love F1 and talk regularly on that thread.

[CloudSquall]

https://twitter.com/lewis_wrighty/status/1204143789243338752


Please just make it stop :boo hoo:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Johnson is such a weirdo. Today's ITN interview, in which he refused to look at the photo of the wee boy being treated on a hospital floor in a Leeds hospital, was unsettling. Who would do that? Something isn't right with him.

[The Harp Awakes]

Johnson is such a weirdo. Today's ITN interview, in which he refused to look at the photo of the wee boy being treated on a hospital floor in a Leeds hospital, was unsettling. Who would do that? Something isn't right with him.

And he nicked the reporter's mobile phone and put it in his pocket. Wtf :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

**** off. :greengrin

You were only 26% convinced you wanted to say that to me.

[One Day Soon]

https://twitter.com/lewis_wrighty/status/1204143789243338752


Please just make it stop :boo hoo:


I think my soul just died.

[One Day Soon]

I have to get this off my chest and apologies to any Lib Dem members or voters for this one.

WTF is it with these Lib Dem leaflets?

They always seem to have these ludicrous crowd scenes featuring the candidate, the leader (Swinson and/or Rennie), a bunch of other Lib Dem people (and they DO always have that Lib Dem look to them - is it their clothes, their haircuts, their smug expressions...?) and it always features loads of their gold diamonds being held up while everyone in the picture usually has their mouths wide-open, roaring something at the top of their lungs and looking spectacularly pleased with themselves.

Every time I see one of these I can see the thought process involved: right, let's make it look like there's absolutely loads of us, we're very energetic, we're celebrating something, we're smiley happy people and above all we're mobbed wherever we go because we're so popular. Most importantly, let's make sure everyone in the picture radiates the smug.

Why, just why?

[J-C]

EU migration *can* be controlled by the UK from within the EU. Belgium and other EU countries operate controls over who may stay on their countries. It's just that the UK never put in place such controls. So the very premise that we can't manage EU migration while being a member of the EU is, as I understand it, fake news.

I could of course be wrong.

You are correct, although there is free flow of access between EU countries, we've always had full control of our borders, it's just never been implemented properly.

[lapsedhibee]

Johnson is such a weirdo. Today's ITN interview, in which he refused to look at the photo of the wee boy being treated on a hospital floor in a Leeds hospital, was unsettling. Who would do that? Something isn't right with him.

Massively overweight and a poor diet, might have piles. Either that or a senior female BBC journalist/cheerleader wedged up his ****.

[Pretty Boy]

I've consulted numerous tactical voting websites and every one suggests that in my constituency I should vote SNP so that's what I'll be doing.

Is anyone else voting tactically to stop the Tories or are you voting based on your own ideology?

[Cataplana]

I've consulted numerous tactical voting websites and every one suggests that in my constituency I should vote SNP so that's what I'll be doing.

Is anyone else voting tactically to stop the Tories or are you voting based on your own ideology?

Christine Jarsine is a shoo in here. I will vote SNP to ensure the Tories are third.

[Ozyhibby]

Christine Jarsine is a shoo in here. I will vote SNP to ensure the Tories are third.

I’m still hopeful the SNP can take the seat back. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/lewis_wrighty/status/1204143789243338752


Please just make it stop :boo hoo:

Not only is that so cringeworthy that my toes are now curled up somewhere near my oxters, it's also a blatant copy of a Labour candidate video from a few weeks ago.

Edit: Dr Rosena Allin-Khan https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1197884965444366337

[lapsedhibee]

Not only is that so cringeworthy that my toes are now curled up somewhere near my oxters, it's also a blatant copy of a Labour candidate video from a few weeks ago.

Edit: Dr Rosena Allin-Khan https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1197884965444366337

Good thing that Johnson can steal as well as lie. Makes him human, relatable.

[PeeJay]

EU migration *can* be controlled by the UK from within the EU. Belgium and other EU countries operate controls over who may stay on their countries. It's just that the UK never put in place such controls. So the very premise that we can't manage EU migration while being a member of the EU is, as I understand it, fake news.

I could of course be wrong.

You are indeed wrong. The controls you refer to only apply to EU citizens during a transitional period after the accession of new Member States (Germany has also had similar restrictions temporarily in place) - freedom of movement means just that - you cannot "control it", although certain "individuals" may be subject to certain regulations/conditions being met ...

[Future17]

Johnson is such a weirdo. Today's ITN interview, in which he refused to look at the photo of the wee boy being treated on a hospital floor in a Leeds hospital, was unsettling. Who would do that? Something isn't right with him.

I'm probably on my own here, but I found the journalist's insistence that Johnson look at the photo more unsettling than Johnson's refusal to do so. I understand why the journalist chose that tactic, but I personally found it inappropriate.


https://twitter.com/lewis_wrighty/status/1204143789243338752


Please just make it stop :boo hoo:

Now that is unsettling. I'm absolutely baffled by what message they are trying to send by using such an homage (if you can even call it that) to that scene/film. Given Johnson's personal character flaws with regard to infidelity, why put him in that particular context? :confused:

You might as well have him roofying a girl in a club saying "we need to get this done" or scrambling down a drainpipe from a bedroom window, whispering "sometimes it's better to pull out quickly rather than properly".

[Cataplana]

I'm probably on my own here, but I found the journalist's insistence that Johnson look at the photo more unsettling than Johnson's refusal to do so. I understand why the journalist chose that tactic, but I personally found it inappropriate.

To paraphrase Richard Nixon, "the people have got to know if their Prime Minister is a crook."

Johnson has behaved despicably throughout the campaign, refusing to answer questions, and talking over others. The only people that seem to get anywhere are those that confront him head on.

[JeMeSouviens]

You are indeed wrong. The controls you refer to only apply to EU citizens during a transitional period after the accession of new Member States (Germany has also had similar restrictions temporarily in place) - freedom of movement means just that - you cannot "control it", although certain "individuals" may be subject to certain regulations/conditions being met ...

https://infacts.org/one-time-expats-tale-control-free-movement/


To be lawfully resident in another (EU) member state, EU citizens need to be working, studying or able to prove they are self-sufficient.

The propaganda from the hard right has always been about millions of migrants arriving and going straight onto benefits.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good thing that Johnson can steal as well as lie. Makes him human, relatable.

Hopefully he has set himself up for a couple of days of viral memeing as well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELanmbzWsAAtAzE?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ozyhibby]

Hopefully he has set himself up for a couple of days of viral memeing as well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELanmbzWsAAtAzE?format=jpg&name=medium

https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/1204305436360478720

Like this?[emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jonty]

https://twitter.com/lewis_wrighty/status/1204143789243338752


Please just make it stop :boo hoo:


https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1204340092908822528 :greengrin

/late to the party again!

[Northernhibee]

I've consulted numerous tactical voting websites and every one suggests that in my constituency I should vote SNP so that's what I'll be doing.

Is anyone else voting tactically to stop the Tories or are you voting based on your own ideology?

Yep, I have massive issues with the SNP but less so than the ******* Tory **** so will vote SNP.

[marinello59]

I've consulted numerous tactical voting websites and every one suggests that in my constituency I should vote SNP so that's what I'll be doing.

Is anyone else voting tactically to stop the Tories or are you voting based on your own ideology?

I’m not so sure if it’s an example of tactical voting but I decided right at the start of this campaign I’d hold my nose and vote SNP to register my support for Indy Ref 2 and Remain. They’d be getting my vote this election regardless of how they were polling in my constituency.

[Smartie]

I’m not so sure if it’s an example of tactical voting but I decided right at the start of this campaign I’d hold my nose and vote SNP to register my support for Indy Ref 2 and Remain. They’d be getting my vote this election regardless of how they were polling in my constituency.

Can I ask why you would need to hold your nose?

Is it that you don’t like people in the party? Policies? The idea of independence itself? Their record in government?

I don’t agree with all they do but I’ve never felt in any way reluctant about anyone I’ve voted for to the “holding nose” extent.

I appreciate there are all sorts of tactical voting dilemmas going on across the UK this week.

[marinello59]

Can I ask why you would need to hold your nose?

Is it that you don’t like people in the party? Policies? The idea of independence itself? Their record in government?

I don’t agree with all they do but I’ve never felt in any way reluctant about anyone I’ve voted for to the “holding nose” extent.

I appreciate there are all sorts of tactical voting dilemmas going on across the UK this week.

I've supported Independence for my entire adult life but have always find it hard to vote SNP although to be fair that's partly down to historical reasons. I think their record in Government recently has been poor and their policies have generally been too centre right for me, even now.
I did vote SNP at the last Holyrood election and ended up with a complete ******** as my MSP so that hasn't really helped me get over my distaste. :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm probably on my own here, but I found the journalist's insistence that Johnson look at the photo more unsettling than Johnson's refusal to do so. I understand why the journalist chose that tactic, but I personally found it inappropriate.

He shouldn't have needed asking twice to look at the photo. Once he refused, of course the journalist was going to run with it. Who would refuse to look at the image of a child on a hospital floor? It's weird behaviour.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Hopefully he has set himself up for a couple of days of viral memeing as well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELanmbzWsAAtAzE?format=jpg&name=medium

:faf:

That's very good.

[Cataplana]

He shouldn't have needed asking twice to look at the photo. Once he refused, of course the journalist was going to run with it. Who would refuse to look at the image of a child on a hospital floor? It's weird behaviour.

The depressing thing is that Labour are unable capitalise on it, it should be the equivalent of Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman" moment, but they are supine as usual.

Might be partly due to the fact that Corbyn hasn't even visited a hospital, preferring to waive a policy document from a lectern instead.

[HiBremian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Y02-03ZFU

John Harris (Guardian) video about the election, shot in Dunbar and Edinburgh, with loads of Hibs content towards the end.

P.S. Well done everyone involved in the Hibernian Foodbank :thumbsup:

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Y02-03ZFU

John Harris (Guardian) video about the election, shot in Dunbar and Edinburgh, with loads of Hibs content towards the end.

P.S. Well done everyone involved in the Hibernian Foodbank :thumbsup:

Great watch Richard, thanks for sharing. You're BLT link on Facebook was top notch too today.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/12/10/trolls-sock-puppets-and-useful-idiots-an-anatomy-of-an-election-disinformation-campaign/

[marinello59]

The depressing thing is that Labour are unable capitalise on it, it should be the equivalent of Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman" moment, but they are supine as usual.

Might be partly due to the fact that Corbyn hasn't even visited a hospital, preferring to waive a policy document from a lectern instead.

Maybe Corbyn didn’t feel the need to disrupt the daily operation of a hospital in order to use the staff as props in a photo op?

[Cataplana]

Maybe Corbyn didn’t feel the need to disrupt the daily operation of a hospital in order to use the staff as props in a photo op?

I'm sure photo ops are possible without disrupting the operation of a hospital.

[marinello59]

I'm sure photo ops are possible without disrupting the operation of a hospital.

They are. By not visiting the hospital. :greengrin

[Cataplana]

They are. By not visiting the hospital. :greengrin

Or by not dragging staff away to do press conferences, dressed up in their scrubs and with stethoscopes round their neck.

The only way you knew they weren't real medics is the fact they weren't wearing crocs.

[CloudSquall]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=22&v=9aV0jboeR3w&feature=emb_t itle




I hope this guy just got a bit mixed up with what he was saying...

[marinello59]

Or by not dragging staff away to do press conferences, dressed up in their scrubs and with stethoscopes round their neck.

The only way you knew they weren't real medics is the fact they weren't wearing crocs.

-Vote for us, we will pour more cash than anybody else in to the NHS to improve facilities and wages.

- Gets my vote...... hold on are they wearing crocs? **** them.