General election 2019

[CloudSquall]

That along with the 2 by-election victories in Fife shows things are beginning to swing back towards them again. Wouldn't be surprised to see the SNP return 50+ seats again.

I think a lot depends on how much of the 2015 SNP vote that didn't vote in 2017 turns out, could be crucial in turning over some of the Tory majorities.

[Moulin Yarns]

If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

Believe me, missed targets are not a source of low morale in the NHS. Low wages, and a patronising "it's not your fault" attitude from public and politicians do much more harm.

A typical example is when the health service says "keep us out of the election" only to be passed around like a football by people who have neither the ability to understand health care, or the desire to do anything about it.

The NHS seems to have become the universal panacea for all our problems. We have an imbalance in the distribution of wealth, but both sides would rather focus on how hospitals are run than doing something about improving people's lot.

If people had hope, they wouldn't be so worried about getting unwell.

I think it is a morale issue at a senior level, both management and clinicians, hence the wide reporting of toxic cultures and bullying in more than one Health Board.

As has been said before, not least of all by me, the real issue is social care, which gets lost in all the rhetoric about the NHS.

[Moulin Yarns]

Please show your workings.

In the margins, obviously. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

I referred to the legislation in a previous post.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Patient Rights Act (Scotland) Act 2011 is maybe what you haven’t read. In no small part, this is why the NHS in Scotland spends money on private providers.

I agree with setting exacting targets, but when you clearly are missing them by a country mile, then it becomes less about the target and more about what the hell you are doing to address under-performance.

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/report/nhs-in-scotland-2019#&gid=1&pid=4

All but inpatient treatment has improved according to the chart 🤔

[Fife-Hibee]

The Patient Rights Act (Scotland) Act 2011 is maybe what you haven’t read. In no small part, this is why the NHS in Scotland spends money on private providers.

I agree with setting exacting targets, but when you clearly are missing them by a country mile, then it becomes less about the target and more about what the hell you are doing to address under-performance.

Setting targets into legislation doesn't make them legally binding which is what you seemed to be suggesting in your previous post.

I agree that the NHS needs to improve. But the NHS always needs to improve. They'll never be a point where people say that it's "good enough". That's why such targets are set. They aren't there simply to be met, they exist to push the NHS as hard as possible.

When I worked as a packer for Amazon quite a number of years ago. They had this ridiculous target of 300 packages an hour. Of course, nobody came anywhere close to that target. But the purpose of having such a target was to pressure people into operating as quickly as possible.

It's the same thing with the NHS target.

[RyeSloan]

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

Here’s a wee read for you regarding legally binding targets...one that is being totally missed right enough but hey it’s legally binding and guaranteed!

https://www2.gov.scot/About/Performance/scotPerforms/NHSScotlandperformance/TTG-LDP

[ronaldo7]

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

I had my aunty (89) in the Royal after a fall last week. She spent 6 days in hospital being assessed by all sorts of people. Out again within 1 week with a care package in place.

The SNHS is **** though.

[Cataplana]

I think it is a morale issue at a senior level, both management and clinicians, hence the wide reporting of toxic cultures and bullying in more than one Health Board.

As has been said before, not least of all by me, the real issue is social care, which gets lost in all the rhetoric about the NHS.

Targets are definitely a factor in bullying culture, so I stand corrected there, as bullying and decisions being made for non clinical reasons, to the detriment of patient care, are bad for morale.

Regrettably the bullies are so deeply ingrained, at all levels, that it is hard to see how things can get better.

[Cataplana]

I had my aunty (89) in the Royal after a fall last week. She spent 6 days in hospital being assessed by all sorts of people. Out again within 1 week with a care package in place.

The SNHS is **** though.

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

[RyeSloan]

Setting targets into legislation doesn't make them legally binding which is what you seemed to be suggesting in your previous post.

I agree that the NHS needs to improve. But the NHS always needs to improve. They'll never be a point where people say that it's "good enough". That's why such targets are set. They aren't there simply to be met, they exist to push the NHS as hard as possible.

When I worked as a packer for Amazon quite a number of years ago. They had this ridiculous target of 300 packages an hour. Of course, nobody came anywhere close to that target. But the purpose of having such a target was to pressure people into operating as quickly as possible.

It's the same thing with the NHS target.

It’s not the same thing. No where near. There is zero legislation regarding how many packages ana Amazon worker might pack but there is specific legislation on service levels required from the NHS. So to suggest they are remotely related is just daft.


The Scottish government says the following:

Why is this LDP Standard important?

The treatment time guarantee is set out in legislation “The Patient Right’s (Scotland) Act 2011”. It places a legal requirement on health boards that once planned inpatient and day case treatment has been agreed with the patient the patient must receive that treatment within 12 weeks.

[lapsedhibee]

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

It was criticism, but not of the SNHS.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

Whoosh! 😁

[Cataplana]

It was criticism, but not of the SNHS.

Are you sure? Have things got to the stage that a score of **** is an improvement ?

[Moulin Yarns]

It’s not the same thing. No where near. There is zero legislation regarding how many packages ana Amazon worker might pack but there is specific legislation on service levels required from the NHS. So to suggest they are remotely related is just daft.


The Scottish government says the following:

Why is this LDP Standard important?

The treatment time guarantee is set out in legislation “The Patient Right’s (Scotland) Act 2011”. It places a legal requirement on health boards that once planned inpatient and day case treatment has been agreed with the patient the patient must receive that treatment within 12 weeks.

And I have got an appointment in 2 weeks time. 👍

[lapsedhibee]

Are you sure?

Yes.

[Mon Dieu4]

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

Although it isn't without its problems I went to ERI A&E with a broken wrist during the summer, I was in the door and out in under 90 mins, X Ray, Stookie and done

For my follow up out patients visit it was under an hour

A porter guy was actually walking about asking if anyone wanted a drink of water

Can't fault it at all in terms of timescales or service

[weecounty hibby]

I won't post the full history again as I have before and it is massively long but my daughter has a pretty rare disorder and the treatment she has had in her 12 years of life has been outstanding, life saving at times. At the other end of the spectrum my mum has just been diagnosed with lung cancer and her treatment both physical and emotional has been outstanding. In the middle I have had numerous rugby injuries over the years some requiring surgery, again outstanding service. Could the SNHS be better, of course it could as improvements can be made, is it a very special and pretty well run organisation for the vast majority. Yes it is. It would be the same or worse under Labour, it would be worse when privatised under the Tories and the Libdems don't have a clue about running anything.

[Mibbes Aye]

I won't post the full history again as I have before and it is massively long but my daughter has a pretty rare disorder and the treatment she has had in her 12 years of life has been outstanding, life saving at times. At the other end of the spectrum my mum has just been diagnosed with lung cancer and her treatment both physical and emotional has been outstanding. In the middle I have had numerous rugby injuries over the years some requiring surgery, again outstanding service. Could the SNHS be better, of course it could as improvements can be made, is it a very special and pretty well run organisation for the vast majority. Yes it is. It would be the same or worse under Labour, it would be worse when privatised under the Tories and the Libdems don't have a clue about running anything.

I am glad you and yours have had good experiences with the NHS, genuinely.

My argument isn’t that the SNHS is terrible. My argument is against those who revel in saying “Look how good we are, we are better then England and Wales”.

Because it is a pish argument. It ignores the fact that local government cuts are two years ahead in England which impacts on health performance. And it ignores the fact that years down the road, Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and yes, wrote into law.

It is a bit embarrassing to see people defending Colin Calderwood as better than Terry Butcher, because that’s essentially what’s happening here.

[weecounty hibby]

I am glad you and yours have had good experiences with the NHS, genuinely.

My argument isn’t that the SNHS is terrible. My argument is against those who revel in saying “Look how good we are, we are better then England and Wales”.

Because it is a pish argument. It ignores the fact that local government cuts are two years ahead in England which impacts on health performance. And it ignores the fact that years down the road, Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and yes, wrote into law.

It is a bit embarrassing to see people defending Colin Calderwood as better than Terry Butcher, because that’s essentially what’s happening here.

Honestly I get what you're saying but there are those who revel in telling us that the SNHS is terrible when it blatantly is not.
I am in no way defending missing targets or that they are in law. But they are stretching targets. I work for a multi national blue chip company and we set very stretching targets and the belief is that it is better to meet 90% of a stretch than 100% of a soft target. And that is why we are a multi billion pound company. I genuinely believe that we do better in Scotland because we look after SNHS ourselves

[Mibbes Aye]

Honestly I get what you're saying but there are those who revel in telling us that the SNHS is terrible when it blatantly is not.
I am in no way defending missing targets or that they are in law. But they are stretching targets. I work for a multi national blue chip company and we set very stretching targets and the belief is that it is better to meet 90% of a stretch than 100% of a soft target. And that is why we are a multi billion pound company. I genuinely believe that we do better in Scotland because we look after SNHS ourselves

Yeah, get what you are saying. Most people will report positive experiences of NHS as it is there when needed, and staff tend to be committed and passionate about what they do. It is a wee bit like the AA, when you need them they are there and it makes all the difference.

At a more strategic level I think SNHS is a car crash in that several health boards are not able to balance their books and rely on government bailouts to stay within the law. Then you have the omnishambles of the QEII and the new Sick Kids. And then you have the public inquiries and reportage around toxic bullying culture in health boards. And then you have Jeanne Freeman and a lack of disclosure in relation to a child death.

[weecounty hibby]

Yeah, get what you are saying. Most people will report positive experiences of NHS as it is there when needed, and staff tend to be committed and passionate about what they do. It is a wee bit like the AA, when you need them they are there and it makes all the difference.

At a more strategic level I think SNHS is a car crash in that several health boards are not able to balance their books and rely on government bailouts to stay within the law. Then you have the omnishambles of the QEII and the new Sick Kids. And then you have the public inquiries and reportage around toxic bullying culture in health boards. And then you have Jeanne Freeman and a lack of disclosure in relation to a child death.
I think we are in general agreement. I do think that government bailouts aren't necessarily a bad thing as long as there is a central budget set aside for that. It should be used not just to prop up the boards but to help them get costs under control

[Jack]

If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

[Mibbes Aye]

HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

So, now we are agreed that there are legally binding targets in Scotland, can we agree that they are being massively missed?

[stoneyburn hibs]

HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

Suck it up indeed.

His Unionist tribe is becoming increasingly more prevalent as time goes by.

Now you're going to tell the world you're not a Unionist...

[Mibbes Aye]

Suck it up indeed.

His Unionist tribe is becoming increasingly more prevalent as time goes by.

Now you're going to tell the world you're not a Unionist...

Is that directed at me?

I’ve explained my stance at length several times and I don’t think anyone can accuse it of being unionist, maybe idealist though.

Not my fault if you can’t follow that.

[lucky]

Voting Labour in Scotland is pointless as it simply divides the SNP vote and acts as a backdoor for tory candidates to take the seats. I'll tell you this much though. If a situation arises after the election where Labour have the opportunity to form a Government and Corbyn maintains his stance regarding another referendum in Scotland. Labour will not be forming the next Government. The SNP showed 40 years ago that they wouldn't be jerked around at the cost of Scotlands sovereignty and they certainly won't be jerked around this time either.

It's take it or leave it Labour as far as the SNP are concerned.

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

[Fife-Hibee]

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

The SNP don't have to deal with the tories. The tories are almost certain to have the most seats (majority or not). Which means if they don't have a majority, they'll get the first shot at forming a coalition Government. If that fails, then it's on Labour to find compromise with other parties to form the next Government which will more than likely have to include the SNP. Labour can either accept Scotlands perfectly legitimitate mandate, or they can bring down themselves.

People didn't have the internet 40 years ago. If Labour fail to strike a deal with the SNP should the opportunity arise, then every single independence supporter in Scotland will know exactly why and they most certainly won't blame the SNP.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Is that directed at me?

I’ve explained my stance at length several times and I don’t think anyone can accuse it of being unionist, maybe idealist though.

Not my fault if you can’t follow that.

Yes you, your posts back it up.

You really don't need anyone's approval to be tied to anything.
Who will you be voting for in 3 weeks?

[CloudSquall]

I think the SNP should stick to their guns, and they need to.

If they back down and support Labour without getting the power to hold a referendum just to keep out the Tories they'll never get it, Labour will know they'll **** it and back them regardless in the future.

I think Labour voters down south are (on the whole) quite sympathetic to the SNP's argument towards holding a referendum, does Corbyn really want to explain to them why he gave up the chance to govern due to refusing to accept the SNP mandate to hold a referendum?

[Frankhfc]

I'd like to hear far more about what independence could look like post indy 2 win. I read a lot about how to get there but not a lot about whats likely to happen thereafter. Its okay arguing for independence but key questions need answered as to what Scotland will look like politically and how it will be funded post exiting the UK?

I'm not against independence merely asking those who argue for it the most to explain what they think will happen afterwards.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'd like to hear far more about what independence could look like post indy 2 win. I read a lot about how to get there but not a lot about whats likely to happen thereafter. Its okay arguing for independence but key questions need answered as to what Scotland will look like politically and how it will be funded post exiting the UK?

I'm not against independence merely asking those who argue for it the most to explain what they think will happen afterwards.

Asking a question like how Scotland will look politically after independence is pointless. Because we're not yet at the point where we're independent and choosing the government to take us forward for the next 4-5 years.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd like to hear far more about what independence could look like post indy 2 win. I read a lot about how to get there but not a lot about whats likely to happen thereafter. Its okay arguing for independence but key questions need answered as to what Scotland will look like politically and how it will be funded post exiting the UK?

I'm not against independence merely asking those who argue for it the most to explain what they think will happen afterwards.

There's a lot of information out there. Try common weal to begin with.

[Frankhfc]

Asking a question like how Scotland will look politically after independence is pointless. Because we're not yet at the point where we're independent and choosing the government to take us forward for the next 4-5 years.

Fair answer.

I'd still like to hear much more of how we would go forward and how we will be funded post independence. We do hear a heck of a lot of arguing how to get there but not much about the aftermath. It'd be nice to hear much more regarding the pragmatic thereafter.

[Moulin Yarns]

Fair answer.

I'd still like to hear much more of how we would go forward and how we will be funded post independence. We do hear a heck of a lot of arguing how to get there but not much about the aftermath. It'd be nice to hear much more regarding the pragmatic thereafter.
https://commonweal.scot/

[Frankhfc]

There's a lot of information out there. Try common weal to begin with.

:aok:

Fair dos.

I was just making the point that all we seem to read about are those who argue for ruk and those who argue for independence without much reasoning. I'd like to think we could have a more balanced debate that that but hey ho, its an emotive issue I suppose.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes you, your posts back it up.

You really don't need anyone's approval to be tied to anything.
Who will you be voting for in 3 weeks?

It is my right to vote for whoever I want. On this thread or another I have made clear I am a Labour Party member and I have made clear I have no truck with Jeremy Corbyn.

I have also made clear in a number of posts that I am not a unionist and laid clear my belief about what is the best route for someone living where I do, which covers Edinburgh and the south-east of Scotland.

What more are you looking for?

You launched, big-style, calling me an unionist.

You got that massively wrong, as my previous posts show.

Not a unionist, not a separatist, maybe just aspiring to something better.

You need to get your facts right.

[lord bunberry]

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence
If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

[Fife-Hibee]

Fair answer.

I'd still like to hear much more of how we would go forward and how we will be funded post independence. We do hear a heck of a lot of arguing how to get there but not much about the aftermath. It'd be nice to hear much more regarding the pragmatic thereafter.

It's the same issue really. We don't really know what we'll be funding as an independent Scotland, because that'll depend on the elected government at any given time.

They are questions where no real concrete answers can be given. The SNP can of course give their vision, but their vision may well be rejected by the Scottish electorate.

[Fife-Hibee]

If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

:agree:

.

[Mibbes Aye]

If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

We isn’t me though, is it?

How many Scottish people do you think you speak for when you say ‘we’?

[Glory Lurker]

Mibbes Aye. Taking you at your word, you have a far, far better understanding of the SNHS than I do. I wouldn't dare argue with you about it. What's the answer? And - only slightly loaded - if you know, what are you doing about it?

[Fife-Hibee]

We isn’t me though, is it?

How many Scottish people do you think you speak for when you say ‘we’?

Don't start this pathetic "we" stuff again. The hypocrisy is lost on you when you do it yourself.

[Frankhfc]

It's the same issue really. We don't really know what we'll be funding as an independent Scotland, because that'll depend on the elected government at any given time.

They are questions where no real concrete answers can be given. The SNP can of course give their vision, but their vision may well be rejected by the Scottish electorate.

At least you're not flashing Unicorns bearing gifts and false promise. That is at least something.

I'd rather that than a tale of hijacking BT and sometime in the future ten year timelines of free internet for all.

:aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

At least you're not flashing Unicorns bearing gifts and false promise. That is at least something.

I'd rather that than a tale of hijacking BT and sometime in the future ten year timelines of free internet for all.

:aok:

One of the biggest challenges from an independence supporters perspective, is convincing others that independence isn't all about the SNP and their own personal vision. It's about all of us, regardless of where you sit politically.

It's unfortunate that we're in a position where the SNP are the only real carrying voice for an independent Scotland, as it makes the idea seem to be all about them, when it really isn't.

[Mibbes Aye]

Don't start this pathetic "we" stuff again. The hypocrisy is lost on you when you do it yourself.

Why is it pathetic?

You have been called out on here several times by different posters for being a liar. And run and hid.

Maybe refute that before calling me pathetic.

[Fife-Hibee]

Why is it pathetic?

Because it's pre-school levels of "debate". Just a nonsensical diversion used to avoid debating the points at hand. You already know "we" is being used to describe people with the same or very similar political views and not "we" as in everybody.

[Mibbes Aye]

Mibbes Aye. Taking you at your word, you have a far, far better understanding of the SNHS than I do. I wouldn't dare argue with you about it. What's the answer? And - only slightly loaded - if you know, what are you doing about it?

I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

[Mibbes Aye]

Because it's pre-school levels of "debate". Just a nonsensical diversion used to avoid debating the points at hand. You already know "we" is being used to describe people with the same or very similar political views and not "we" as in everybody.

But “we” isn’t “me”.

You can’t claim “the same or very similar political views”, that would just be another lie, which as we have established, you are readily capable of.

[Fife-Hibee]

But “we” isn’t “me”.

You can’t claim “the same or very similar political views”, that would just be another lie, which as we have established, you are readily capable of.

I don't know whether your use of grammar in the most extreme literal sense is deliberate or not. But I would hazard a guess that you know exactly what posters mean when they use the term "we" in their posts and you only dig it up to avoid debating the fundemental points the post is making. Yet ruining another page where effective debate could be taking place.

[lord bunberry]

We isn’t me though, is it?

How many Scottish people do you think you speak for when you say ‘we’?
Fair point as I particularly hate when politicians try and pretend to speak for us all. I think my point stands that using the confidence vote in 79 as an attempt to win votes is more likely to turn voters away from Corbyn as it’s completely irrelevant to the current election. I quite like many of labours policies and in an independent Scotland I would almost certainly vote for them, but they’ve absolutely blown it in Scotland and turning up with a tartan scarf telling us that that if we don’t vote for him it will be our fault that the tories get elected only emphasises how out of touch labour are in Scotland.

[Fife-Hibee]

I quite like many of labours policies and in an independent Scotland I would almost certainly vote for them, but they’ve absolutely blown it in Scotland and turning up with a tartan scarf telling us that that if we don’t vote for him it will be our fault that the tories get elected only emphasises how out of touch labour are in Scotland.

It's actually quite worrying that they're still touting out that line in Scotland tbh. The closest party to the SNP in Scotland right now in terms of overall vote share are the tories. Yet Labour come up here and tell us that anything other than voting Labour will result in a tory government, while knowing full well that a reduction of the SNP vote to increase Labours vote more would ultimately be handing seats to the tories in Scotland.

They're playing on peoples lack of knowledge of how the electoral system works to give the tories a helping hand. :confused: If they actually cared about keeping the tories out of government, they would be urging as many people as possible up here to vote SNP.

[ronaldo7]

I see labour have pulled a video in Wales of a nurse, fake of course, telling everyone how they're going to improve the NHS in Wales.

The 77th brigade are upping their game.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/thejeremyvine/status/1195613856594366464?s=21

Fairly clear explanation of where we are at.


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[weecounty hibby]

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

[Ozyhibby]

Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

Pre the Scottish Parliament there was as little attention paid to Scotland as there is now paid to the north of England. And it shows as Scotland is now wealthier than that part of the country by quite a distance. Having our own govt constantly going into bat for us whether it’s arguing with Westminster or touting for business abroad has been great for Scotland. With independence we could increase that more.


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[Cataplana]

Are you forgetting all the years that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour and we got Tories. So was it Labour who put the Tories in then? What actually happened was the Labour took Scotland for granted and ignored our wants and needs. The only party solely focused on Scotland is the SNP. If you don't want Tory rule in Scotland vote SNP and for Independence. It would you rather be part of the Union and governed by Tories. Because that's the choice, Labour are done in Scotland and heading that way in England

People aren't forgetting the deals that Kezia Carcrash did with the Tories to keep the SNP out in 2017. Had it not been for the seats she donated then Corbyn would have been in power.

Scottish Labour will get back one day, but at the moment they are no more than a fringe party. They have done serious damage to themselves in the last ten years, but are yet to recognise that themselves.

It will take at least ten years for a new wave of members to turn on the numpties that got them in that mess.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/robinjpickering/status/1195302991487799296?s=21
Good twitter thread on Labour’s broadband plan. It has good and bad points. Electorally it is probably a good offer as there are a lot of people unhappy with their broadband speed outside the major cities.


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[heretoday]

https://twitter.com/robinjpickering/status/1195302991487799296?s=21
Good twitter thread on Labour’s broadband plan. It has good and bad points. Electorally it is probably a good offer as there are a lot of people unhappy with their broadband speed outside the major cities.


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Sounds good to me. With bank branches closing we're all going to have to do finance online whether we like it or not. This will help.

[SHODAN]

I think the SNP should stick to their guns, and they need to.

If they back down and support Labour without getting the power to hold a referendum just to keep out the Tories they'll never get it, Labour will know they'll **** it and back them regardless in the future.

I think Labour voters down south are (on the whole) quite sympathetic to the SNP's argument towards holding a referendum, does Corbyn really want to explain to them why he gave up the chance to govern due to refusing to accept the SNP mandate to hold a referendum?

It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

[StevieC]

BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

That’s my thoughts as well. Been dealing with them for nearly 30 years and they are a nightmare. Their disconnect between BT and Openreach is shambolic. Whoever decided that an untrained phone operative was the best person to provide fault information to an engineer (semi-trained!) needs shot.
Nationalising BT would be a disaster. You need to force them to improve their service, and how you do that is the real test of a government.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I recall at the time of Milibands leadership, that Alex Salmond said that if Miliband didn't know what to put in the manifesto about Scotland, then he would come down and write it for him. Hugely counter productive at the time and one of the reasons that I could never engage with him as for me, he was always a well heeled economist first and foremost. The SNP should stick to the plan to win all the seats and let what happens next sort itself out.

[Colr]

National Broadband for the National Good

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCfW6HFP5cI

[Fife-Hibee]

It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

[Glory Lurker]

I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

[lucky]

Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

[CloudSquall]

Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

Lose to the SNP or Labour?

IMO it's highly unlikely he'd be unseated by the SNP if he was an independent, and I'd bet both of my Henry Halls Labour couldn't unseat him.

[Jack]

I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

[Future17]

By way of some light-hearted relief on this thread, I live in Edinburgh East and my wife just told the neighbours she'll be voting for Tommy Robinson...:doh:

[Mibbes Aye]

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

[Cataplana]

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

[Jack]

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

[G B Young]

At least there's one poll Corbyn can win hands-down...unpopularity among voters:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50403154

[Mibbes Aye]

Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

Yeah, I think to an extent, the public don’t really have an awareness of the demographics.

We are experiencing a massive rise, which is set to continue, in our older population, 75+ and 85+.

I would have to check but I think the 85+ population is set to treble over the next decade or two.

While some of those people will never or only lightly touch health and care services, a lot more will be living into their eighties with long-term conditions - COPD, diabetes, chronic heart disease, arthritis, several others, and often multiples of those.

It represents a massive demand on NHS and social care, and neither are currently resourced for it.

I also think there is a need for a thoughtful conversation about expectations and entitlement, and what is realistic.

For me, it needs something along the lines of a Royal Commission, instead of politicians of all hues kicking it down the road.

[Jack]

Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

[Mibbes Aye]

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

Not sure what you are saying to be honest, but I don’t feel you are refuting my point.

Failing is failing, even if it is slightly less failure than the perfidious Albion.

Making out SNHS is a paragon is fallacious and really, really weak. It is in a mess.

Saying it it is better than England is a poor attempt at deflecting what is justifiable criticism.

What happens if and when independence comes? Will you still be saying, yes we are missing our legally-binding targets but hey, we are missing them a little less than England?

And you have never come close to responding to the point about England being a couple of years ahead in cuts to local government and social care. I know that you know that has a massive influence on acute performance.

[G B Young]

If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

[Mibbes Aye]

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

Failure is failure.

Saying the SNP is running things better is Calderwood v Butcher.

The QEIi, the Sick Kids, the shortfall of beds at ERI, the bullying scandals at NHS Highland, the falsifying of figures at NHS Lothian, the financial bailouts for at least three health boards ad infinitum

Yeah, a step ahead.

[Cataplana]

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...


Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.


But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

[Mibbes Aye]

Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.



We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

[Just Alf]

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.Which is a perfectly valid point to make on a general election thread when we're comparing how the differing NHS's are performing across the UK relative to the parties in control in eash area.

Seperately we also ALL agree that the NHS in Scotland should be better and that's for an NHS thread I'd say... Will future cuts impact it, will the government of the day be able to mitigate those cuts etc etc

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[Just Alf]

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.Agree with that 100%

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[Cataplana]

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment :greengrin

[Cataplana]

Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment :greengrin

I am not complaining about efficient management, efficient management would involve the consultant going straight to the top of the tree, saying here are my reasons for spending this money, and that being the end of it. Instead they seem to have to tell everyone they deal with that they will go over their head.

What would bring the topic back on track is the public to ask more of their politicians, and tell them they are not prepared to listen to scare mongering from either side. It is quite reprehensible that people are going to hospital fearing all sorts of things are going to happen because politicians have screamed about nothing.

Step forward Alex Cole - Hamilton, Miles Briggs et al.

[ronaldo7]

By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

If the upcoming election turfs out most of those Tories who took up office in 2017, I'll look forward to your move towards our next independence referendum with glee. The people of Scotland will have spoken after all. 👍

[ronaldo7]

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

[Fife-Hibee]

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18041473.election-snp-candidate-slams-labour-leaflet-misinformation/?fbclid=IwAR02iJyNRfrpm7nmYwcV0VA3G_Ud-PgtC0C1fJFtVZTC7sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

[Cataplana]

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

I'm sure it's got a whoosh one, I just can't find it. :hide:

[Cataplana]

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

I'm sure it's got a whoosh one, I just can't find it. :hide:

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I think to an extent, the public don’t really have an awareness of the demographics.

We are experiencing a massive rise, which is set to continue, in our older population, 75+ and 85+.

I would have to check but I think the 85+ population is set to treble over the next decade or two.

While some of those people will never or only lightly touch health and care services, a lot more will be living into their eighties with long-term conditions - COPD, diabetes, chronic heart disease, arthritis, several others, and often multiples of those.

It represents a massive demand on NHS and social care, and neither are currently resourced for it.

I also think there is a need for a thoughtful conversation about expectations and entitlement, and what is realistic.

For me, it needs something along the lines of a Royal Commission, instead of politicians of all hues kicking it down the road.

A royal commission might be a good idea but it would be very limited in the solutions it could recommend because of the lack of funding levers held at holyrood.


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[Ozyhibby]

Tories and Lib Dem’s both bragging about how many trees they will plant. Problem is if the SNP were to match these promises then they would need to reduce the amount of trees they are already planting. [emoji23]


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[G B Young]

If the upcoming election turfs out most of those Tories who took up office in 2017, I'll look forward to your move towards our next independence referendum with glee. The people of Scotland will have spoken after all. ��

The SNP (understandably) thought they'd spoken in 2015 but the over-hasty post-Brexit charge towards a fresh independence referendum didn't work out so well...

FWIW I think it's pretty clear the SNP will all but sweep the boards here next month. Without Ruth Davidson at the helm in Scotland the Tories will struggle for an identity and Labour, well, as others have said, it wouldn't be a surprise if Ian Murray is the last man standing again. Nevertheless, I also think we may find that Johnson isn't as loathed in Scotland as generally portrayed and the Tories may still win a notable share of the vote, while (as in 2015) a sizeable chunk of the SNP vote will be made up of utterly disillusioned former Labour voters who feel switching to the Tories is a step too far (ie not necessarily an endorsement of independence).

As I've said before, should we end up with Corbyn as PM I'll be right with you when it comes to backing independence. However, the only conceivable way I could see that coming even close to reality would be via a pact with the SNP - and given his seeming (and baffling) determination to burn his bridges on that score I think we'll be spared such a fate.

[Mibbes Aye]

A royal commission might be a good idea but it would be very limited in the solutions it could recommend because of the lack of funding levers held at holyrood.


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Royal Commission is necessary IMO at U.K. level.

SG could commission an inquiry with similar powers at a Scotland-wide level. It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years.

What do you think they will do?

[Ozyhibby]

Royal Commission is necessary IMO at U.K. level.

SG could commission an inquiry with similar powers at a Scotland-wide level. It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years.

What do you think they will do?

I can’t remember the last time we had a royal commission. They have long since gone out of fashion. They had one on police corruption in Oz when I was there but I doubt the uk has had one in 30 years. I’d say there is zero chance of it happening.
I would have one for criminal justice and drug policy as well but I can’t see it happening.



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[Mibbes Aye]

I can’t remember the last time we had a royal commission. They have long since gone out of fashion. They had one on police corruption in Oz when I was there but I doubt the uk has had one in 30 years. I’d say there is zero chance of it happening.
I would have one for criminal justice and drug policy as well but I can’t see it happening.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They were in fashion in the seventies and they carried a lot of clout. Sometimes it is worth revisiting history. And no reason for SG not establishing some sort of public inguiry.

I fully agree with you that it is timely to have one on drug policy.

[Ozyhibby]

They were in fashion in the seventies and they carried a lot of clout. Sometimes it is worth revisiting history. And no reason for SG not establishing some sort of public inguiry.

I fully agree with you that it is timely to have one on drug policy.

Drug policy really annoys me because everyone knows what we need to do. Every time a politician, police chief etc leaves a job they go public and say we need to legalise and treat as a health issue but nobody is ever brave enough to say it while they are in the job.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Drug policy really annoys me because everyone knows what we need to do. Every time a politician, police chief etc leaves a job they go public and say we need to legalise and treat as a health issue but nobody is ever brave enough to say it while they are in the job.


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No disagreement from me C, it is a public health issue, not a criminal issue.

[Smartie]

What is a royal commission?

[stoneyburn hibs]

What is a royal commission?

Google Prince Andrew.

[Moulin Yarns]

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

Sorry MA but you are just repeating the same opinions over and over again. I worked in local government and can assure you that, at least in my area, the cuts have been going on for over 10,maybe even 18 years.

On targets for the NHS which are the ones that are not being met and when will there be litigation for missing targets?

At least accept that NHS Scotland, whilst not perfect, is performing better than its closest comparators.

[Ozyhibby]

What is a royal commission?

As far as I remember it’s like a massive public enquiry where nothing is off the table and it has far reaching powers.
The one they had in Australia when I was there had massive powers and were not slow to jail anyone who even thought about lying to it.


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[Mibbes Aye]

What is a royal commission?

I am not being smart but google as it was very big in the 1970s

At its best it is a very thorough inspection where everything is on the table, as Ozyhibby stated, and folk have to answer or face contempt of court.

It is a massive enquiry into what is going on. The Scottish NHS is failing, as is the NHS in England and Wales. It is easy to make political points. No one looks pretty when you look at the results.

[Cataplana]

I am not being smart but google as it was very big in the 1970s

At its best it is a very thorough inspection where everything is on the table, as Ozyhibby stated, and folk have to answer or face contempt of court.

It is a massive enquiry into what is going on. The Scottish NHS is failing, as is the NHS in England and Wales. It is easy to make political points. No one looks pretty when you look at the results.

There is a massive conversation to be had about what people can reasonably expect from the NHS. It some point the elephant in the room of overuse, and misuse of the service has to be broached.

This could stretch from over reliance on prescriptions to the role the medical profession plays in the benefit system.

[Fife-Hibee]

A lot gets said about how much money should be thrown into the NHS. But nothing ever gets said about how much money should go towards promoting health campaigns that will help keep people out of the NHS.

How much of the overall burden goes towards treating health conditions that ultimately come from poor lifestyle choices?

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry MA but you are just repeating the same opinions over and over again. I worked in local government and can assure you that, at least in my area, the cuts have been going on for over 10,maybe even 18 years.

On targets for the NHS which are the ones that are not being met and when will there be litigation for missing targets?

At least accept that NHS Scotland, whilst not perfect, is performing better than its closest comparators.

I have no problem with NHS Scotland doing a wee bit better than England or Wales.

I have a problem with people like you trying to big it up.

NHS Scotland is doing better, but is failing by its own standards. That’s not good enough is it?

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Google Prince Andrew.


i did but it's scantily clad females that come up in the results


some of them look very young

[DaveF]

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

[stoneyburn hibs]

i did but it's scantily clad females that come up in the results


some of them look very young

🤣

[RyeSloan]

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18041473.election-snp-candidate-slams-labour-leaflet-misinformation/?fbclid=IwAR02iJyNRfrpm7nmYwcV0VA3G_Ud-PgtC0C1fJFtVZTC7sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

Was the data on the graph wrong? Was the graph titled incorrectly?

If not then what would you want the electoral commission to do in this instance?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191116/9165b06970d71b10e010c7abc510170f.jpg



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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191116/76214053edeb35944433ffd82afa4734.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191116/f81d466bf65581f7163e6ec62792d0f3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191116/28074f2364de1576c3228c9b418bc7c4.jpg


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[allmodcons]

"It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years"


No real need for a Royal Commission, looks like you already have the SNP Government (sorry the SNP) hung, drawn and quartered.

With regard to targets, you'd be the first to complain if they were unambitious.

The SNP have been in power for 12 years, only 5 years as a majority Government. For 10 years of that 12 year period the country's had to deal with Tory Austerity.

Maybe you should look to re-direct your ire at the real enemy.

[Moulin Yarns]

Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

Pretty much what I meant.. 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

I have no problem with NHS Scotland doing a wee bit better than England or Wales.

I have a problem with people like you trying to big it up.

NHS Scotland is doing better, but is failing by its own standards. That’s not good enough is it?

By the SNP’s own standards, we are breaking our own laws.

Answwr that, my supposed Green friend.

You say WE are breaking our own laws. That's a bit rich from someone who is a bit heated every time someone else uses the same word. WE are not breaking any laws that would result in court action, unless we, I mean you, want to raise a civil action.

[Mibbes Aye]

You say WE are breaking our own laws. That's a bit rich from someone who is a bit heated every time someone else uses the same word. WE are not breaking any laws that would result in court action, unless we, I mean you, want to raise a civil action.

You either break the law or you don’t. One of the means SG avoids it is by health boards paying BUPA or other private providers to step in and make up for the lack of capacity in the statutory sector. Yet people on here criticise BoJo for wanting to privatise the NHS but don’t speak up when Nicola Sturgeon pumps money to the private sector.

I’m glad to have you accepted it is written in law and I’m glad you have accepted that the law has been broken something approaching 200,000 times by the government that created that law :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

Take them to court then. Job done.

You can open the case with the Butcher/Calderwood comparison 😁

Droll and informative.

I have no interest in a legal battle, but I do know that the SNP government made a law that they have broken 150-200,000 times. Can you refute that?

And as it goes I like the Calderwood/Butcher analogy. It sums up the situation pretty aptly.

[Mibbes Aye]

"It would mean the SNP has to take a hit for mismanaging the NHS for the last ten years"


No real need for a Royal Commission, looks like you already have the SNP Government (sorry the SNP) hung, drawn and quartered.

With regard to targets, you'd be the first to complain if they were unambitious.

The SNP have been in power for 12 years, only 5 years as a majority Government. For 10 years of that 12 year period the country's had to deal with Tory Austerity.

Maybe you should look to re-direct your ire at the real enemy.





The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.

The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.

The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.

The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.

The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.

You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.

[Fife-Hibee]

The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.
It has tax powers that would be grossly irresponsible to use without the leverage to control other tax powers still reserved at Westminster. No use in raising taxes if it's only to then be deducted from the 50% or so we get back from our tax contributions to the UK treasury already.


The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.
All part of 'partial' devolution. At the time the Scottish Government only had the power to freeze council tax for everybody or nobody at all. So they chose to freeze it for everybody. Sure, it helped out rich people.... but it still helped out everybody else as well.



The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.
You talk about the health boards as if they are the SNP. The SNP simply gives the health board targets to meet. It's up to the health board to either agree to these targets or to appeal against them. They didn't put an appeal in against the proposed targets despite being fully aware of the budget they were being given. So the axe really falls on the health board, not the Scottish Government.



The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.
Hmm yes. Remind me, who is actually accusing the health minister again? Because all we keep hearing is "NHS whistleblower", but no name.

The claim that the death 'may have' been connected with hospital water supplies in 2017 haven't been backed up with a single shred of evidence.

Considering the sheer lack of evidence, I find it disgraceful that the tories are trying to gain political capital over the death of a child. Especially considering their own 'proven' failures on the NHS in England leading to multiple deaths. Deaths that the SNP never sink to a level low enough to try and seek political capital out of.


You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.
I agree. That's why they're looking to take ownership by removing ownership from London.

[Mibbes Aye]

It has tax powers that would be grossly irresponsible to use without the leverage to control other tax powers still reserved at Westminster. No use in raising taxes if it's only to then be deducted from the 50% or so we get back from our tax contributions to the UK treasury already.


All part of 'partial' devolution. At the time the Scottish Government only had the power to freeze council tax for everybody or nobody at all. So they chose to freeze it for everybody. Sure, it helped out rich people.... but it still helped out everybody else as well.



You talk about the health boards as if they are the SNP. The SNP simply gives the health board targets to meet. It's up to the health board to either agree to these targets or to appeal against them. They didn't put an appeal in against the proposed targets despite being fully aware of the budget they were being given. So the axe really falls on the health board, not the Scottish Government.



Hmm yes. Remind me, who is actually accusing the health minister again? Because all we keep hearing is "NHS whistleblower", but no name.

The claim that the death 'may have' been connected with hospital water supplies in 2017 haven't been backed up with a single shred of evidence.

Considering the sheer lack of evidence, I find it disgraceful that the tories are trying to gain political capital over the death of a child. Especially considering their own 'proven' failures on the NHS in England leading to multiple deaths. Deaths that the SNP never sink to a level low enough to try and seek political capital out of.


I agree. That's why they're looking to take ownership by removing ownership from London.

Where to start.

Your council tax freeze didn’t benefit the poorest as they were exempt and didn’t benefit the poor as they were on a lower rate anyway. So it helped out the better-off more than it helped out the worse off.

Public money as a middle class bribe. Great.

[Fife-Hibee]

Where to start.

Your council tax freeze didn’t benefit the poorest as they were exempt and didn’t benefit the poor as they were on a lower rate anyway. So it helped out the better-off more than it helped out the worse off.

Public money as a middle class bribe. Great.

Probably played a pretty big part in keeping them in power all of these years. No wonder you're raging. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Probably played a pretty big part in keeping them in power all of these years. No wonder you're raging. :wink:

No raging on my part. Just critiquing and commentating.

They are failing on health.

[Fife-Hibee]

No raging on my part. Just critiquing and commentating.

They are failing on health.

If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

[Mibbes Aye]

If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

You cant commentate on their health performance because you don’t know what you would be talking about, do you?

For those of us who do know what we are talking about, performance has failed, and doesn’t show any sign of getting better.

[Ozyhibby]

If they're failing, then they'll soon be replaced. If enough people are satisfied with their performance, they'll add to their 12 year tally. :cb

That’s the thing. When people are asked about their personal experience on Health they all say how great the NHS were. And they know it’s better than England and that’s all it can really be compared with because other systems are very different with a lot more private providers.
MA is probably right about areas where it is failing but politically it doesn’t matter because the general public think it’s going great.



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[Fife-Hibee]

You cant commentate on their health performance because you don’t know what you would be talking about, do you?

For those of us who do know what we are talking about, performance has failed, and doesn’t show any sign of getting better.

Well the SNP have been in government for 12 years. It's only a matter of time before a majority catch up with your superior level of intellect on the matter and vote them out of government, right? :cool2:

[Moulin Yarns]

You either break the law or you don’t. One of the means SG avoids it is by health boards paying BUPA or other private providers to step in and make up for the lack of capacity in the statutory sector. Yet people on here criticise BoJo for wanting to privatise the NHS but don’t speak up when Nicola Sturgeon pumps money to the private sector.

I’m glad to have you accepted it is written in law and I’m glad you have accepted that the law has been broken something approaching 200,000 times by the government that created that law :agree:

You forgot to mention the workplace parking levy. 😉

[DaveF]

Droll and informative.

I have no interest in a legal battle, but I do know that the SNP government made a law that they have broken 150-200,000 times. Can you refute that?

And as it goes I like the Calderwood/Butcher analogy. It sums up the situation pretty aptly.

FFS, I used a smiley MA. Surely even you could see it was in jest.

You are getting so wrapped up in politics you are losing sight of any light humour.

[Colr]

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/election-2019-london-polls-show-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/election-2019-london-polls-show-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

All the polls still point to a Tory majority. If anything they are getting better for Johnson.


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[allmodcons]

The SNP government has control over the health service in Scotland.

The SNP government has tax raising powers it has chosen not to use.

The SNP government oversaw a council tax freeze for many years which benefitted the richest over the poorest and forsake tax-raising income, as some form of middle-class bribe.

The SNP government was in charge for the omnishambles that was QEII, the Sick Kids, the massive overspend that has to be written off by various health boards, the toxic bullying cultures in a number of health boards.

The SNP government has a minister in charge of health who is accused of a cover-up over child deaths in our flagship hospital.

You are right, they have been in power a long time. Therefore time they took ownership.

This is a little out of date but it's a decent record for the party of Government. It goes some way to explaining why so many voters put their cross against the SNP.

https://theferret.scot/fact-check-snp-party-political-broadcast/

I get that you'd never vote SNP but do you really think there is a better alternative in Scotland right now?

God forbid a Tory Administration at Holyrood and can you imagine the omni-shambles that is Scottish Labour at the helm.

[Future17]

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots. :rolleyes:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18041473.election-snp-candidate-slams-labour-leaflet-misinformation/?fbclid=IwAR02iJyNRfrpm7nmYwcV0VA3G_Ud-PgtC0C1fJFtVZTC7sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

I'm not following the criticism of the Electoral Commission here?

[Cataplana]

Liberal surge from Labour in Tory seats reported in London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/election-2019-london-polls-show-lib-dem-surge

Suggestions of this as a trend around the home counties as well where Tories are also dropping support. Not enough on these figures to lose seats but signs that the Tories might fall short around London and in Scotland but Labour won’t benefit.

Really does start to look like this election will be decided in the midlands and northern cities. Could well be another hung parliament.

The Midlands will vote for Boris, he's their kind of guy.

[Ozyhibby]

This is a little out of date but it's a decent record for the party of Government. It goes some way to explaining why so many voters put their cross against the SNP.

https://theferret.scot/fact-check-snp-party-political-broadcast/

I get that you'd never vote SNP but do you really think there is a better alternative in Scotland right now?

God forbid a Tory Administration at Holyrood and can you imagine the omni-shambles that is Scottish Labour at the helm.

There is no alternative in Scotland just now. And that is a problem medium term. Last thing we need is the SNP getting complacent.


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[Colr]

Britain Elects website has regional polls showing Labour vote collapsing across the midlands but Tories being eaten into by Brexit.

[marinello59]

Britain Elects website has regional polls showing Labour vote collapsing across the midlands but Tories being eaten into by Brexit.

if Crobyn has caved on free movement then their vote is going to collapse further.

[Colr]

Watching London Politics this morning talking about Alexander de Pfeffel’s slim majority in Uxbridge.

What happen’s if Boris loses his seat but the Tories get a majority.

The Tories didn’t have a deputy PM and don’t have a deputy leader? Who would be PM?

[G B Young]

All the polls still point to a Tory majority. If anything they are getting better for Johnson.


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Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/boris-johnson/news/108020/four-new-opinion-polls-give

[marinello59]

Watching London Politics this morning talking about Alexander de Pfeffel’s slim majority in Uxbridge.

What happen’s if Boris loses his seat but the Tories get a majority.

The Tories didn’t have a deputy PM and don’t have a deputy leader? Who would be PM?

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

[Colr]

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

How long does it take to be made a Lord, I wonder? Who would propose him. The Queen would have to agree. Would put her in a difficult position (he’s done that before).

I wonder who the official second in command is in the Tories.

[Jack Hackett]

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else. He would need a deputy to speak for him in the commons though.

The possibility of being Lord Boris would no doubt be an appealing prospect, as would avoiding PMQ's

[Fife-Hibee]

Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/boris-johnson/news/108020/four-new-opinion-polls-give

How is their lead looking in Scotland?

[heretoday]

if Crobyn has caved on free movement then their vote is going to collapse further.

He's advocating filling important vacancies with people from outwith Britain, I think. Boris is talking about an Australian points system also. Same idea.

Free Movement is a term we've grown used to since Brexit started but it's not something you can just turn off. If fewer EU folk come here after Brexit, we'll have to get folk from elsewhere. Unfortunately, we can't hope to fill posts from our own employment pool.

Actually, I admire Corbyn for coming up with radical policy proposals that sound something like government taking an interest in its people. If the Labour vote collapses because of that then more fool the electorate, say I.

[Fife-Hibee]

Actually, I admire Corbyn for coming up with radical policy proposals that sound something like government taking an interest in its people. If the Labour vote collapses because of that then more fool the electorate, say I.

Many people don't want government "taking an interest in them". They want government to stay out of their lives as much as possible.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Comfortable Tory lead across the latest polls:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/boris-johnson/news/108020/four-new-opinion-polls-give

When you look at the policy proposals of the two major parties, combined with the rank incompetence of Johnson and his hardline Brexit government, I find this astonishing. Perhaps I'm just way outside mainstream opinion (I probably am) but I find this poll baffling. Perhaps it's wrong, like at the last general election when the polls predicted a Conservative majority of over one hundred. I don't know.

[Ozyhibby]

When you look at the policy proposals of the two major parties, combined with the rank incompetence of Johnson and his hardline Brexit government, I find this astonishing. Perhaps I'm just way outside mainstream opinion (I probably am) but I find this poll baffling. Perhaps it's wrong, like at the last general election when the polls predicted a Conservative majority of over one hundred. I don't know.

Only brexit is keeping Corbyn competitive which is amazing considering he personally would rather be out.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Only brexit is keeping Corbyn competitive which is amazing considering he personally would rather be out.


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Yet there are a number of innovative and exciting policy proposals from Labour, in contrast to the Tories' more of the same neoliberalism. This election represents the first opportunity in a generation to move away from Thatcherism.

[Ozyhibby]

Yet there are a number of innovative and exciting policy proposals from Labour, in contrast to the Tories' more of the same neoliberalism. This election represents the first opportunity in a generation to move away from Thatcherism.

Your assuming people want that? I don’t think there is much appetite for a return to nationalised industries and socialism in the UK.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Your assuming people want that? I don’t think there is much appetite for a return to nationalised industries and socialism in the UK.


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Yet the Corbyn proposals would improve the lives of the vast majority, both personally and as a society. The majority of people would be financially better off, if nothing else. It's baffling to me.

[Ozyhibby]

Yet the Corbyn proposals would improve the lives of the vast majority, both personally and as a society. The majority of people would be financially better off, if nothing else. It's baffling to me.

I don’t think they would.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

I don’t think they would.


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The average salary in the UK is circa £25,000 per year. You don't think most households would be better off financially under Labour, when there will be a guaranteed minimum income, reversal of benefit cuts, an end to benefit sanctions, abolition of zero hour contracts etc etc? Of course such policies would help the majority. Nobody could accuse Corbyn of not helping the poor to average earners.

[Ozyhibby]

The average salary in the UK is circa £25,000 per year. You don't think most households would be better off financially under Labour, when there will be a guaranteed minimum income, reversal of benefit cuts, an end to benefit sanctions, abolition of zero hour contracts etc etc? Of course such policies would help the majority. Nobody could accuse Corbyn of not helping the poor to average earners.

If you could make all those things happen in a vacuum then it would may be a good idea but there are knock on effects.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

If you could make all those things happen in a vacuum then it would may be a good idea but there are knock on effects.


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Aye, and what about the 'knock on effects' of more money for the NHS and education, including increased pay for all those staff, plus civil servants, social workers, prison officers, firefighters, police officers etc? Of course the majority will benefit, as will everybody else as those services improve.

I won't even be voting Labour, as I'm a member of the Green Party, but I know which party I would prefer to win the election.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your assuming people want that? I don’t think there is much appetite for a return to nationalised industries and socialism in England.

Fixed that for you. Nationalised industry would garner a fair bit of support up here imo.

[Ozyhibby]

Aye, and what about the 'knock on effects' of more money for the NHS and education, including increased pay for all those staff, plus civil servants, social workers, prison officers, firefighters, police officers etc? Of course the majority will benefit, as will everybody else as those services improve.

I won't even be voting Labour, as I'm a member of the Green Party, but I know which party I would prefer to win the election.

There has to be a way of paying for all those things as well. I would not say I want Labour to win but I would like them to at least achieve a hung parliament but I think they are too far left to achieve that.


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[Fife-Hibee]

There has to be a way of paying for all those things as well.

:hmmm:

I've got it! :idea:

How about putting pressure on the top 1% who own around half of the countries wealth? The same people who have amassed such a wealth through paying their employees as little as possible while contributing ZERO to public services as a result of tax loops that they bribed tory lobbyists to implement/keep in place?

[Hibernia&Alba]

There has to be a way of paying for all those things as well. I would not say I want Labour to win but I would like them to at least achieve a hung parliament but I think they are too far left to achieve that.


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We approach this from different directions, as I don't think they are left enough in some areas, thus I am more comfortable in the Greens. As for 'payment', may I remind you of Tony Benn's adage that "no government in history has ever said they couldn't fight a war because there wasn't enough money. They find the money; so, if we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people. No excuses".

Also in relation to 'paying' for progress, we need to destroy the idea that governments need to pay for spending by taxation, when that simply isn't the case. Despite the nonsense Thatcher used to state, governments are not the same as households i.e. 'pocketbook spending' is not applicable to governments, which have the ability to create money from nothing - see the 2008 banking crisis and bailout. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, but isn't required to raise revenue for spending. 'The national credit card' etc is total nonsense. In 1945 the country was 'bankrupt' after six years of war, yet we created an NHS, a welfare state, free university education and nationalised key industries. The whole discussion needs reflect the reality, not the myth.


https://youtu.be/4FYS3z45Zqc

[Ozyhibby]

Ruth Davidson really chasing the dollars these days.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ruth-davidson-under-fire-over-unprecedented-payment-as-a-general-election-pundit-1-5047540/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[marinello59]

Ruth Davidson really chasing the dollars these days.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ruth-davidson-under-fire-over-unprecedented-payment-as-a-general-election-pundit-1-5047540/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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Next she will have her own show on a Russian TV channel.

[Ozyhibby]

:hmmm:

I've got it! :idea:

How about putting pressure on the top 1% who own around half of the countries wealth? The same people who have amassed such a wealth through paying their employees as little as possible while contributing ZERO to public services as a result of tax loops that they bribed tory lobbyists to implement/keep in place?

Don’t disagree with that. There are far too many tax loopholes. Most of them put there by Gordon Brown right enough who massively over complicated the tax system.



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[Ozyhibby]

Next she will have her own show on a Russian TV channel.

Not the same. Salmond is no longer a politician.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Ruth Davidson really chasing the dollars these days.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ruth-davidson-under-fire-over-unprecedented-payment-as-a-general-election-pundit-1-5047540/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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Wait... ITV pay politicians to appear on their political programmes? :confused:

Well that explains a lot. I wonder how much they pay them to say whatever they want them to say as well.

[Fife-Hibee]

Next she will have her own show on a Russian TV channel.

Why not? She's probably already receiving sources of funding from there already.

[Hibrandenburg]

Next she will have her own show on a Russian TV channel.

I might actually take a day off work now, the chance to see her face tripping her as the election results in Scotland come in is tempting.

[CloudSquall]

I might actually take a day off work now, the chance to see her face tripping her as the election results in Scotland come in is tempting.

Finally seeing that smug look on her face getting chipped away at with each and every "SNP Gain" will be extremely enjoyable, I wonder if she'll actually defend Boris and co this time around?

[lapsedhibee]

He could be made a member of the House of Lords which would enable him to remain as PM until he won a seat somewhere else.

Not sure there's a rule that PM has to be a member of either House of Parliament. Possibly just a tradition. So he could go back to writing lies for the Telegraph for his main income, and tell lies for the Government as PM for pin money.


If fewer EU folk come here after Brexit, we'll have to get folk from elsewhere.
I'm not sure why this isn't a huge problem for the Tories, since 'from elsewhere' almost certainly in practice means 'who are browner'. Have they not twigged this yet?

[Future17]

Why not? She's probably already receiving sources of funding from there already.

Fife, could you answer my previous question about your criticism of the Electoral Commission please?

[Cataplana]

Not sure there's a rule that PM has to be a member of either House of Parliament. Possibly just a tradition. So he could go back to writing lies for the Telegraph for his main income, and tell lies for the Government as PM for pin money.


I'm not sure why this isn't a huge problem for the Tories, since 'from elsewhere' almost certainly in practice means 'who are browner'. Have they not twigged this yet?

I believe that it was a problem gettin Alex Douglas - Home into the Commons, and it took a few by elections before it was solved.

[Fife-Hibee]

Fife, could you answer my previous question about your criticism of the Electoral Commission please?

Is it not the job of the electoral commission to over see the election process and how it's handled by the parties? Yet they don't seem to hold any of the main British parties accountable for misinformation in their leaflets used to mislead voters, particularly in Scotland.

[Jack Hackett]

I'm not sure why this isn't a huge problem for the Tories, since 'from elsewhere' almost certainly in practice means 'who are browner'. Have they not twigged this yet?

Of course they have, but inconvenient truths won't attract the voters they're after.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not sure why this isn't a huge problem for the Tories, since 'from elsewhere' almost certainly in practice means 'who are browner'. Have they not twigged this yet?


I've wondered this too and there's probably a few reasons as to why but it's probably first and foremost the inability of forward thinking amongst most of them.

[Future17]

Is it not the job of the electoral commission to over see the election process and how it's handled by the parties? Yet they don't seem to hold any of the main British parties accountable for misinformation in their leaflets used to mislead voters, particularly in Scotland.

Thank you for replying. In short, the answer to your question is no. If any body should be intervening in what you're referring to, it would be the UK Statistics Authority.

[G B Young]

When you look at the policy proposals of the two major parties, combined with the rank incompetence of Johnson and his hardline Brexit government, I find this astonishing. Perhaps I'm just way outside mainstream opinion (I probably am) but I find this poll baffling. Perhaps it's wrong, like at the last general election when the polls predicted a Conservative majority of over one hundred. I don't know.

Doesn't always come down to policy proposals. A vast swathe of voters simply don't like Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50403154

His hopes of seeing the polls narrow in a similar way to 2017 seem like wishful thinking to me. He no longer has that 'surprise' factor of being a bit different. Voters have him sussed now and for many he just comes across as endlessly vague, even a bit dim-witted. Justified or not the allegations of anti-Semitism and habouring terrorist sympathies also tend to stick.

As for policy, both main parties appear to be bidding to outdo each other in spending pledges so Corbyn doesn't really have the 'anti-austerity' card to play either, while the cut-through clarity of Johnson's 'Getting Brexit Done' message leaves Corbyn's muddled approach to Brexit in the shade.

Perhaps most significantly, Corbyn's not up against the hopeless May this time. Her mind-bogglingly inept campaign was as much responsible for Labour doing better than expected last time round as anything Corbyn had to offer.

[Hibrandenburg]

I like to hear Swinson tell us if push came to shove, would she prefer to see Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. There's no way you'd get a straight answer out of her.

[Fife-Hibee]

I like to hear Swinson tell us if push came to shove, would she prefer to see Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. There's no way you'd get a straight answer out of her.

"Neither, we're campaigning for a majority Lib Dem government and once I become PM i'll reverse brexit just like that, without any social repercussions.... blah blah blah, i'm Jo Swinson."

[lord bunberry]

Doesn't always come down to policy proposals. A vast swathe of voters simply don't like Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50403154

His hopes of seeing the polls narrow in a similar way to 2017 seem like wishful thinking to me. He no longer has that 'surprise' factor of being a bit different. Voters have him sussed now and for many he just comes across as endlessly vague, even a bit dim-witted. Justified or not the allegations of anti-Semitism and habouring terrorist sympathies also tend to stick.

As for policy, both main parties appear to be bidding to outdo each other in spending pledges so Corbyn doesn't really have the 'anti-austerity' card to play either, while the cut-through clarity of Johnson's 'Getting Brexit Done' message leaves Corbyn's muddled approach to Brexit in the shade.

Perhaps most significantly, Corbyn's not up against the hopeless May this time. Her mind-bogglingly inept campaign was as much responsible for Labour doing better than expected last time round as anything Corbyn had to offer.
Your post seems remarkably upbeat on the country rejecting a Corbyn government, obviously I don’t know your individual circumstances, but what I can’t understand is working class Tory voters.
I won’t be voting labour, but I agree with almost everything they are proposing. The answer to this country’s problems is not another Tory government.

[Hibbyradge]

I like to hear Swinson tell us if push came to shove, would she prefer to see Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. There's no way you'd get a straight answer out of her.

Understandably so. If she admitted preferring either, she'd frighten off potential LD voters, and particularly if she said Corbyn.

Sturgeon has the luxury of being able to say she'd work with Corbyn because she is appealing to a huge number of ex-Labour voters and isn't trying to win votes from natural Tory voters.

If she said that she'd work with Johnson, it would seriously hurt her. Can you imagine the reaction if she did, even just on here?

Whether she actually would or not if push came to shove is another matter and hopefully it'll never be put to the test.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your post seems remarkably upbeat on the country rejecting a Corbyn government, obviously I don’t know your individual circumstances, but what I can’t understand is working class Tory voters.
I won’t be voting labour, but I agree with almost everything they are proposing. The answer to this country’s problems is not another Tory government.

Been speaking to numerous business owners and they all tell me the same thing. They can't vote Corbyn, because it means higher corporation tax. Apparently the 2010 levels (that Labour are proposing) were just too high. Never mind that the UK already has one of the lowest corporation tax rates in the developed world at the lowest level it has every been in history. :rolleyes:

https://www.figurewizard.com/list-uk-corporation-tax-rates.html

[Hibrandenburg]

Understandably so. If she admitted preferring either, she'd frighten off potential LD voters, and particularly if she said Corbyn.

Sturgeon has the luxury of being able to say she'd work with Corbyn because she is appealing to a huge number of ex-Labour voters and isn't trying to win votes from natural Tory voters.

If she said that she'd work with Johnson, it would seriously hurt her. Can you imagine the reaction if she did, even just on here?

Whether she actually would or not if push came to shove is another matter and hopefully it'll never be put to the test.

But surely by not answering the question she's just as likely to alienate just as many if not more voters.

[Fife-Hibee]

Whether she actually would or not if push came to shove is another matter and hopefully it'll never be put to the test.

Just depends who is wise enough to offer Scotland a referendum first I suppose. Probably the tories, as Labour don’t really want to be in Government.

[Hibbyradge]

But surely by not answering the question she's just as likely to alienate just as many if not more voters.

Folk who want to vote for her will give her the benefit of the doubt.

It's the correct way to deal with the question.

Have you stopped beating your wife? The only answer is no answer.

[Ozyhibby]

Just depends who is wise enough to offer Scotland a referendum first I suppose. Probably the tories, as Labour don’t really want to be in Government.

Nobody is going to offer it because Labour can’t get the votes to get us to a hung parliament.


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[Ozyhibby]

We approach this from different directions, as I don't think they are left enough in some areas, thus I am more comfortable in the Greens. As for 'payment', may I remind you of Tony Benn's adage that "no government in history has ever said they couldn't fight a war because there wasn't enough money. They find the money; so, if we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people. No excuses".

Also in relation to 'paying' for progress, we need to destroy the idea that governments need to pay for spending by taxation, when that simply isn't the case. Despite the nonsense Thatcher used to state, governments are not the same as households i.e. 'pocketbook spending' is not applicable to governments, which have the ability to create money from nothing - see the 2008 banking crisis and bailout. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, but isn't required to raise revenue for spending. 'The national credit card' etc is total nonsense. In 1945 the country was 'bankrupt' after six years of war, yet we created an NHS, a welfare state, free university education and nationalised key industries. The whole discussion needs reflect the reality, not the myth.


https://youtu.be/4FYS3z45Zqc

I watched that video and she does not make a very compelling case.
If we take her at her word, why even have any taxation at all if it does not matter? Surely we can just spend what we like?
It’s complete nonsense. The govt has two sources of money, taxation and debt. If it relies too heavily on debt the market will start to charge higher interest for it and there are inflation risks.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

I watched that video and she does not make a very compelling case.
If we take her at her word, why even have any taxation at all if it does not matter? Surely we can just spend what we like?
It’s complete nonsense. The govt has two sources of money, taxation and debt. If it relies too heavily on debt the market will start to charge higher interest for it and there are inflation risks.


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That just isn't true. Governments do not need to use taxation for spending, since governments have a monopoly on issuing a currency. This only breaks down when a government forfeits its right to a sovereign currency, such as the eurozone. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, in addition to social goals such as egalitarianism and equality of opportunity, but a government could in theory have zero taxation and maintain all its social spending; it cannot "max out the credit card" as individuals can. However, doing so would cause inflation to sky rocket and trust in the currency to collapse. All currencies work on trust alone: if I gave you a paper note, you believe it has some value, though of course it has no intrinsic value. If we lose that trust, the currency is finished. It's all alchemy and delusion really. When you say 'debt', remember governments borrow from themselves. If I owe myself £100, am I in debt? Governments can borrow from the public via instruments such as government bonds, but that's a choice, they don't have to do that to finance spending.

[Ozyhibby]

That just isn't true. Governments do not need to use taxation for spending, since governments have a monopoly on issuing a currency. This only breaks down when a government forfeits its right to a sovereign currency, such as the eurozone. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, in addition to social goals such as egalitarianism and equality of opportunity, but a government could in theory have zero taxation and maintain all its social spending; it cannot "max out the credit card" as individuals can. However, doing so would cause inflation to sky rocket and trust in the currency to collapse. All currencies work on trust alone: if I gave you a paper note, you believe it has some value, though of course it has no intrinsic value. If we lose that trust, the currency is finished. It's all alchemy and delusion really. When you say 'debt', remember governments borrow from themselves. If I owe myself £100, am I in debt? Governments can borrow from the public via instruments such as government bonds, but that's a choice, they don't have to do that to finance spending.

You admit that it revolves around trust and I contend that the trust is not there for what you are proposing. It’s never been done successfully.


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[SHODAN]

Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.

[Ozyhibby]

Johnson just announce that corporation tax cuts that were planned have been cancelled. Money spent on public services. Funny, he used to say corporation tax cuts raised money.[emoji23]


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[southsider]

Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.
Will peerages for Brexit Party stand down’s come back to haunt him ? Like cash for questions all over again. Police must be called in. And Labour a distant 2nd. Give me strength.

[Fife-Hibee]

Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.

Neither party wants to win the election. Both parties know the economy is ducked. Labour are playing a blinder with their Marxist style manifesto. They’ll ensure there’s a majority Tory government when everything implodes and try as he might, Boris can’t prevent it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You admit that it revolves around trust and I contend that the trust is not there for what you are proposing. It’s never been done successfully.


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The way that public finances actually work, versus the myth of taxing to spend, must be one of the greatest inaccuracies in the world today. It effects each and every one of us, yet I've never heard a politician discuss the issue accurately. The falsehood keeps being repeated. Perhaps they have also just accepted the narrative that governments must work like households as Thatcher used to claim, when it's a completely false analogy. You and I do not have our own sovereign currency, which changes everything.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yet the Corbyn proposals would improve the lives of the vast majority, both personally and as a society. The majority of people would be financially better off, if nothing else. It's baffling to me.


I don’t think they would.


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How about a £6000 pay rise for every worker?


https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/18/labour-promise-immediate-6000-pay-rise-every-worker-11175187/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.link

[jonty]

How about a £6000 pay rise for every worker?


https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/18/labour-promise-immediate-6000-pay-rise-every-worker-11175187/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.link

Except its not every worker - and its not a full 6k
To truly give everyone a £6000 they would need to also do something like up the personal tax threshold - but they wont :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Except its not every worker - and its not a full 6k
To truly give everyone a £6000 they would need to also do something like up the personal tax threshold - but they wont :greengrin

What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

[Ozyhibby]

What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

That is entirely deniable.[emoji23]


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[jonty]

What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

Unlike Ozy, I wont argue that point :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Unlike Ozy, I wont argue that point :greengrin

Doesn’t matter anyway. They can’t win with Corbyn.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Christine Jardine positioning the Lib Dems as the new tories on the block in Scotland with this letter.

https://img.techpowerup.org/191118/christinejardinepng.png

She doesn't want Corbyn to win the election, but is happy to scoop up the tory votes in Edinburgh West seeing as the Conservative Party can't win here. :whistle:

Not a mention about Brexit either.....

[jonty]

Doesn’t matter anyway. They can’t win with Corbyn.


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I cant really disagree with that either.

[CloudSquall]

Christine Jardine positioning the Lib Dems as the new tories on the block in Scotland with this letter.

https://img.techpowerup.org/191118/christinejardinepng.png

She doesn't want Corbyn to win the election, but is happy to scoop up the tory votes in Edinburgh West seeing as the Conservative Party can't win here. :whistle:

Not a mention about Brexit either.....

Looking at the results in 2017 and she actually got slightly less votes than Mike Crockart in 2015, it was the size of the collapse in the SNP vote that got her in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_West_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Electi ons_in_the_2010s

It seems to have been the case in many of the seats the SNP lost in 2017, it wasn't so much a case of votes being lost to other parties but more a case of 2015 voters just not turning up.

How many seats they can get back will depend on how much of that 2015 "tsunami" they can recreate, if they do so in Edinburgh West Jardine's going to rely on some unionist vote transfer.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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[JeMeSouviens]

SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Bizarre that Johnson has agreed to h2h with Corbyn when he needs a split remain vote. :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

Bizarre that Johnson has agreed to h2h with Corbyn when he needs a split remain vote. :confused:

Johnson won't see any problem there. Corbyn didn't go to Eton. Just like Emily Maitlis.

[Jack Hackett]

SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Isn't it more likely they'll both ignore the pesky Jocks completely?

[Hibrandenburg]

Folk who want to vote for her will give her the benefit of the doubt.

It's the correct way to deal with the question.

Have you stopped beating your wife? The only answer is no answer.

Don't you start calling me a wife beater too. :faf:

[Fife-Hibee]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/74906687_2863577807015447_9018287795147374592_o.pn g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQk2fUGWt9hxyZiDNNDP9_ynforLMqwM9UEMYO1bzvg hy82N6SNZpwHkpM9d4zF2cto&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=b3c8789f3ca3132605a110806306c905&oe=5E862B19

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191118/525d97d1323377fd3074c9dc99335749.png


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[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191118/525d97d1323377fd3074c9dc99335749.png


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Based on the assumption of age turnout mentioned above which doesn't seem very realistic at all.

[Jones28]

Based on the assumption of age turnout mentioned above which doesn't seem very realistic at all.

I would argue that the assumptions are correct. Brexit was swung by the older vote, those who voted Brexit but vote labour will turn away from labour and Corbyn and go to the nearest port for brexiteers, either the Brexit party or Boris.

Or something else entirely.

I have a horrible feeling the silent majority will vote the conservatives in by a landslide.

[G B Young]

SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Does anyone really care about these 'debates'? At least with the Lib Dems and the SNP involved it might have diluted the slanging match that these one-to-one events tend to descend into (witness the appalling Darling v Salmond shoutfests in 2014).

[G B Young]

Doesn’t matter anyway. They can’t win with Corbyn.


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Chairman of Leicester East Labour Party quits, describing Corbyn as "the clown that leads the Labour Party":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50457201?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5dd2f12c8c42df06637ba999%26Labour%20br anch%20chair%20quits%20with%20attack%20on%20Corbyn %262019-11-18T19%3A37%3A40.116Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f466b1e8-cd8a-4fd7-9d22-cb10cd05fb23&pinned_post_asset_id=5dd2f12c8c42df06637ba999&pinned_post_type=share

[Jones28]

Does anyone really care about these 'debates'? At least with the Lib Dems and the SNP involved it might have diluted the slanging match that these one-to-one events tend to descend into (witness the appalling Darling v Salmond shoutfests in 2014).

It’s like watching question time but nothing from the audience to break up the arguing and no Dimbleby with his big metaphorical stick.

[G B Young]

It’s like watching question time but nothing from the audience to break up the arguing and no Dimbleby with his big metaphorical stick.

Indeed. I also loathe Question Time.

[Fife-Hibee]

I would argue that the assumptions are correct. Brexit was swung by the older vote, those who voted Brexit but vote labour will turn away from labour and Corbyn and go to the nearest port for brexiteers, either the Brexit party or Boris.

Or something else entirely.

I have a horrible feeling the silent majority will vote the conservatives in by a landslide.

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

[Mibbes Aye]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

What a senseless and insulting post. And you won’t have a thing to back it up but it doesn’t stop you just making stuff up.

[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191118/525d97d1323377fd3074c9dc99335749.png


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14-point lead for the Tories according to this:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/boris-johnson/news/108027/blow-jeremy-corbyn-new

[G B Young]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

Yep those pesky old folk, what could they possibly know about anything?

Pretty disrespectful to brush off anyone over 65 as 'care home' material.

[Jones28]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

The same silent majority voted No in the referendum.

Otherwise the rest of your post is in pretty poor taste.

[Smartie]

My mum dragging my senile grandmother along to vote no was one of the most depressing things I've seen in my life.

[Hiber-nation]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

Christ, 4 years to go then.

You really need to either go away or think before posting.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's in bad taste to suggest that electoral fraud happens? :confused:

90%+ of over 65's planning to vote? I'm not buying it at all.

[Fife-Hibee]

This no mark is all very positive about Scotland being put back in it's box. Doesn't it just warm your heart?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULFFbGkvKg&feature=youtu.be

[Fife-Hibee]

In case anybody misses the ITV "debate" later...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJtgZ7oWsAATldZ?format=jpg&name=medium

[Cataplana]

It's in bad taste to suggest that electoral fraud happens? :confused:

90%+ of over 65's planning to vote? I'm not buying it at all.

It wasn't your best joke.

[McSwanky]

This no mark is all very positive about Scotland being put back in it's box. Doesn't it just warm your heart?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULFFbGkvKg&feature=youtu.beWho is that?

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[Fife-Hibee]

Who is that?

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Just your average southern tory keeping the colony in check.

[DaveF]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

That's just ****ing dire. Get this removed.

[Pretty Boy]

I've never really bought into this "silent majority" idea. I'm thinking this high 65+ turnout includes many people in care homes who won't have a clue that they just voted conservative.

Even by your standards this post is an absolute ****ing shocker. Your are, to put it bluntly, a disgrace.

[Mr_F]

That's just ****ing dire. Get this removed.


Even by your standards this post is an absolute ****ing shocker. Your are, to put it bluntly, a disgrace.


My mum dragging my senile grandmother along to vote no was one of the most depressing things I've seen in my life.

:confused:

[CloudSquall]

:confused:


Let's not ruin the mock outrage crew's time to shine :greengrin

[DaveF]

Let's not ruin the mock outrage crew's time to shine :greengrin

What are you on about with the mock outrage crap? It's a crass, insensitive post and if you and the other poster can't see that then you are blind.

To spell it out though, feel free to laugh at my wife while telling her that her Dad was voting for anyone he was told to as his life was wasting away in a care home.

[Future17]

I can’t believe I find myself defending one of Fife’s posts on here, but I’ve personally spoken with people who believe that their elderly relatives, resident in care homes and the like, had votes cast on their behalf without their knowledge.

Quite why Fife considers this would be a crime perpetrated by (or, more accurately, on behalf of) the Conservative Party rather than any other party is beyond me but, given the title of the thread about that Party on this board, his post doesn’t strike me as an allegation worthy of the level of condemnation it has received.

[Smartie]

:confused:

If I may explain.......

My mum has power of attorney to over my gran. My gran left school at 8 to help look after her large family and has never been interested in politics. During the indendence referendum my mum made sure she registered for a vote so my mum could effectively have a second vote. It would be fair to say that my gran was not at the time the most mentally acute, nor was she particularly mobile.

I’m all for democracy but it wasn’t a particularly dignified spectacle, and it wouldn’t have been any more dignified had her loving grandson helped her along to put a tick in the yes column.

[southsider]

On GMB Reid showed her true colours. She called the Labour Leader Corbyn but the PM Boris. That’s not even his fecken name ! It’s pathetic and the ‘debate’ tonight will be a shoe-in for Johnston as the producers will make it so. God help us.

[JeMeSouviens]

I would argue that the assumptions are correct. Brexit was swung by the older vote, those who voted Brexit but vote labour will turn away from labour and Corbyn and go to the nearest port for brexiteers, either the Brexit party or Boris.

Or something else entirely.

I have a horrible feeling the silent majority will vote the conservatives in by a landslide.

It is a well established fact that older voters are:

- far more likely to vote
- far more likely to favour Brexit
- far more likely to reject Indy
- far more likely to be Tories

[Cataplana]

What are you on about with the mock outrage crap? It's a crass, insensitive post and if you and the other poster can't see that then you are blind.

To spell it out though, feel free to laugh at my wife while telling her that her Dad was voting for anyone he was told to as his life was wasting away in a care home.

"Wasting away" is a bit clumsy as well. I'm sure the care home staff don't think their residents live such a horrible existence.

Its easy to say the wrong thing when sticking up for others

[Mr_F]

If I may explain.......

My mum has power of attorney to over my gran. My gran left school at 8 to help look after her large family and has never been interested in politics. During the indendence referendum my mum made sure she registered for a vote so my mum could effectively have a second vote. It would be fair to say that my gran was not at the time the most mentally acute, nor was she particularly mobile.

I’m all for democracy but it wasn’t a particularly dignified spectacle, and it wouldn’t have been any more dignified had her loving grandson helped her along to put a tick in the yes column.

The :confused: wasn't aimed at your post, was more to say that Fife-Hibee's comment probably isn't far from the truth.

[lapsedhibee]

It is a well established fact that older voters are:

- far more likely to vote
- far more likely to favour Brexit
- far more likely to reject Indy
- far more likely to be Tories

- far more likely to feel the cold in December
- far more likely to break bones if they fall

[DaveF]

"Wasting away" is a bit clumsy as well. I'm sure the care home staff don't think their residents live such a horrible existence.

Its easy to say the wrong thing when sticking up for others

Not really, given I watched it happen and you didn't.

Anyway, I'll let you bash on with the debate. If this the level of it then I won't be back to read it.

[DaveF]

The :confused: wasn't aimed at your post, was more to say that Fife-Hibee's comment probably isn't far from the truth.

Maybe, maybe not but it is, IMO, completely inappropriate and insensitive.

[Betty Boop]

On GMB Reid showed her true colours. She called the Labour Leader Corbyn but the PM Boris. That’s not even his fecken name ! It’s pathetic and the ‘debate’ tonight will be a shoe-in for Johnston as the producers will make it so. God help us.

No chance Jezza will rip Boris up for erse paper.

[Cataplana]

Not really, given I watched it happen and you didn't.

Anyway, I'll let you bash on with the debate. If this the level of it then I won't be back to read it.

Sounds like you think your experience supercedes anything the rest of us have experienced with people in their final years.

If you can't see that the phrase "wasting away" is not a sensitive way to describe a humans decline, I hardly think you're in a position to criticise other people's derogatory descriptions .

Vegetables waste away, humans don't.

t
Maybe, maybe not but it is, IMO, completely inappropriate and insensitive.

So is yours.

[DaveF]

Sounds like you think your experience supercedes anything the rest of us have experienced with people in their final years.

If you can't see that the phrase "wasting away" is not a sensitive way to describe a humans decline, I hardly think you're in a position to criticise other people's derogatory descriptions .

Vegetables waste away, humans don't.

My experience supercedes others? Don't go putting words in my mouth. I made no such claim so don't go there.

It was a crap post and I called it out. If you don't agree, fine. But don't go twisting my words. I can't be arsed with word play like that.

[Jones28]

- far more likely to feel the cold in December
- far more likely to break bones if they fall

- far more likely to get the good biscuits out for visitors

[Cataplana]

My experience supercedes others? Don't go putting words in my mouth. I made no such claim so don't go there.

It was a crap post and I called it out. If you don't agree, fine. But don't go twisting my words. I can't be arsed with word play like that.

I don't think we're getting anywhere with this

I didn't put words in your mouth, I told you that the words you used were equally offensive.

Sorry to hear about your experience, but as I've suggested you're not the only person to go through it.

[Pretty Boy]

Sounds like you think your experience supercedes anything the rest of us have experienced with people in their final years.

If you can't see that the phrase "wasting away" is not a sensitive way to describe a humans decline, I hardly think you're in a position to criticise other people's derogatory descriptions .

Vegetables waste away, humans don't.

t

So is yours.

I'd say 'wasting away' is a pretty fair description of some people's last days, weeks or months even if it's not a particularly cuddly term.

My Granny was under 6 stone when she passed away. She was convinced my Grandad was a stranger who had broken into her home, was unaware she was even at home a lot of the time, hadn't eaten a solid meal in weeks, was being treated for pressure sores, had no mobility and was easy prey for any infections doing the rounds. 'Wasting away' is about the best description I could come up with tbh. It was ecistejce rather than a life.

I accept that many older people are active, fit and well into their last days but the reality is many reach a stage of extreme illness and malnutrition regardless of the care they are receiving.

[Cataplana]

I'd say 'wasting away' is a pretty fair description of some people's last days, weeks or months even if it's not a particularly cuddly term.

My Granny was under 6 stone when she passed away. She was convinced my Grandad was a stranger who had broken into her home, was unaware she was even at home a lot of the time, hadn't eaten a solid meal in weeks, was being treated for pressure sores, had no mobility and was easy prey for any infections doing the rounds. 'Wasting away' is about the best description I could come up with tbh. It was ecistejce rather than a life.

I accept that many older people are active, fit and well into their last days but the reality is many reach a stage of extreme illness and malnutrition regardless of the care they are receiving.

We started off talking about residents of care homes. To view them all as wasting away is not a very pleasant picture.

Fact is many live their for twenty years or more. To imply that they are either senile, or terminally ill health is just not correct.

I know that many people who work with the elderly would be upset if it was suggested that their efforts to give their clients fulfilling lives were viewed as futile, as the implication that care home residents are wasting away.

As the discussion has diverted into what people find offensive, it's worth reminding ourselves that is a subjective exercise, and recognise that what is a normal figure of speech to one person, could be quite horrific to another.

[Pretty Boy]

We started off talking about residents of care homes. To view them all as wasting away is not a very pleasant picture.

Fact is many live their for twenty years or more. To imply that they are either senile, or terminally ill health is just not correct.

I know that many people who work with the elderly would be upset if it was suggested that their efforts to give their clients fulfilling lives were viewed as futile, as the implication that care home residents are wasting away.

As the discussion has diverted into what people find offensive, it's worth reminding ourselves that is a subjective exercise, and recognise that what is a normal figure of speech to one person, could be quite horrific to another.

Pleasant picture or otherwise it's true in the eyes of 2 people on this thread who watched it happen first hand.

That's not suggesting an individual experience supercedes others. If it is the case then I suppose the same argument could be thrown right back at you.

Having read back I can't see any post which suggest ALL care home residents are 'wasting away'. It was quite clearly given as a personal account of a personal set of circumstances.

[Cataplana]

Pleasant picture or otherwise it's true in the eyes of 2 people on this thread who watched it happen first hand.

That's not suggesting an individual experience supercedes others. If it is the case then I suppose the same argument could be thrown right back at you.

Having read back I can't see any post which suggest ALL care home residents are 'wasting away'. It was quite clearly given as a personal account of a personal set of circumstances.

I am very confused by this. Apparently Fife Hibees Post was offensive because he made an edgy joke that some people find in poor taste.

but when someone else uses language that might upset others, then that's ok.

Help me out, I'm missing the point, why is the first post so offensive compared to the second?

I'm not being arsey, I just don't get what separates them.

As I said, vegetables waste away, humans don't. There is a lot more to us than flesh and bone.

[lapsedhibee]

There is a lot more to us than flesh and bone.
What, like bulldog spirit, you mean?
(Otherwise agree with your post.)