General election 2019

[givescotlandfreedom]

Tories survive in Aberdeenshire. Awful

[Mr Grieves]

Lib dem hold Edinburgh west

[CloudSquall]

I think Nessie might be safe from Ruth.

[weecounty hibby]

I think Nessie might be safe from Ruth.

Yeah, possibly and she will then tell everyone that the SNP have had a bad night!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Are the SNP expected to win over fifty seats?

[cabbageandribs1875]

jamie greene msp going back to the once in a generation vote....tories really need to move on from that one






inverness...SNP Drew Hendry Hold 10,450 maj


45 seats, mon the 45


Banff and Buchan.....

gtf dugoid hold, what is wrong with they people, wtf is wrong

[weecounty hibby]

Are the SNP expected to win over fifty seats?
No, that was a target that Davidson set thinking that it would be unachievable. She is looking like a bit of a tit now but if the SNP don't get to 50 now she will claim it as a victory

[cabbageandribs1875]

Are the SNP expected to win over fifty seats?



running out of seats, still they ones that take 3 days to get to the counting halls :greengrin


BBC now forecasting 52

[cabbageandribs1875]

No, that was a target that Davidson set thinking that it would be unachievable. She is looking like a bit of a tit now but if the SNP don't get to 50 now she will claim it as a victory


she absolutely will, and be serious about it as well

[cabbageandribs1875]

anyway....tories have officially won down south now... &&&&s

[Hibernia&Alba]

running out of seats, still they ones that take 3 days to get to the counting halls :greengrin


BBC now forecasting 52

52 from 59 still massive. Big Ruth will be avoiding the cameras mair than Boris did.

[cabbageandribs1875]

52 from 59 still massive. Big Ruth will be avoiding the cameras mair than Boris did.



stop teasing

[cabbageandribs1875]

Gordon, the area not some dudes name...


SNP win by 819 votes from the tories

23,800
23,000


46 seats

[givescotlandfreedom]

Gordon, the area not some dudes name...


SNP win by 819 votes from the tories

23,800
23,000


46 seats

Good, one less!

[givescotlandfreedom]

Dennis Skinner booted out in Bolsover. Unthinkable.

[cabbageandribs1875]

theresa may STILL coming out with so much utter nonsense, it's now a" once in a lifetime vote in 2014"...yep it's increased decades


and "WE all know scotland is best in the union" yep.. WE all know

[MartinfaePorty]

Now saying 49. Loch Ness safe for another 5 years

Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

caithness, sutherland and somewhere else :greengrin


yer effin jokin man, lib dems hold

11700

SNP
11500

[Cataplana]

Make no mistake, the callous disregard for the question of what happens to the Irish border, shows the English care very little about what happens to the Union.

Scotland would do well to remember that in the coming months.

[weecounty hibby]

Time to get an hour in my bed before I need to get up for work!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

46 seats...ah well, 7 seats more than what i predicted, 11 more SNP seats + 1 independent(for now)
seats in westminster

[givescotlandfreedom]

Jim Murphy says the SNP didn't ask for a mandate for a second referendum.
No wonder Scottish Labour is broken.

[givescotlandfreedom]

Ann Widdecombe horsed. Pleasing.

[Callum_62]

46 seats...ah well, 7 seats more than what i predicted, 11 more SNP seats + 1 independent(for now)
seats in westminsterStill 3 to declare

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

Still 3 to declare

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


any more exciting surprises for me will have to wait till this afternoon. Zzzzzzzzzzzz time

[cabbageandribs1875]

last one for moi

argyle and bute


yas SNP


result 57 of 59


oops one more again.....

ian blackford Holds :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: with his lucky hibs tie on :wink:

48 seats....and one indy

result 58 of 59

[Pretty Boy]

Just woke up and watched Corbyn's speech. Jeezo even his de facto resignation speech was indecisive nonsense.

Good night for the SNP, good night for the nationalists in NI and yet more clear signs that the UK as we know it is on it's last legs. We're moving in different directions.

[Callum_62]

Blackford cruises it - 48 seats

What's the last to declare? The map. I'm looking at seems complete

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Sir David Gray]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.

[Chorley Hibee]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.

I think a lot of Labour voters (myself included) will now see their only viable hope of a socialist government as being via the route of independence.

It's now time to cut England loose, and let them wallow in the horror they are about to inflict upon themselves - I say that as an Englishman too.

[Callum_62]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.Not straight off the bat but certainly with a harder right controlling Govt and the issues forcast that brexit will bring I'd be surprised if support doesnt increase rather than decrease

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.

It's an argument the right has to tread carefully around as the Conservative share of the vote is in the same ball park yet they are discussing a ringing endorsement of 'get Brexit done'.

One again Scotland and NI have rejected Brexit in big numbers and given the influence now wielded by nationalist patties in both countries any outright denial of their mandate is not going to end well.

[degenerated]

I think a lot of Labour voters (myself included) will now see their only viable hope of a socialist government as being via the route of independence.

It's now time to cut England loose, and let them wallow in the horror they are about to inflict upon themselves - I say that as an Englishman too.Unfortunately Labour are incapable of learning this lesson. They've already decided one of their failings was they weren't unionist enough.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Northernhibee]

They were interviewing a couple of foodbank attendees in the north of England before the election and when asked who they’d vote for they said “We might vote for Boris, I like what he says”.

I have utter contempt for the media who have conditioned people into subservience. Utter contempt for the Tories. Utter contempt for Momentum who politicise austerity but have done inadequately to properly engage and persuade with the likes who were interviewed. Utter contempt for Swinson and her bizarre presidential “Vote for Jo Swinson’s Lib Dem’s” campaign.

[Bristolhibby]

They were interviewing a couple of foodbank attendees in the north of England before the election and when asked who they’d vote for they said “We might vote for Boris, I like what he says”.

I have utter contempt for the media who have conditioned people into subservience. Utter contempt for the Tories. Utter contempt for Momentum who politicise austerity but have done inadequately to properly engage and persuade with the likes who were interviewed. Utter contempt for Swinson and her bizarre presidential “Vote for Jo Swinson’s Lib Dem’s” campaign.

Total Stockholm Syndrome.

J

[Callum_62]

Wonder if Johnson will now swivel to more centre ground

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

They were interviewing a couple of foodbank attendees in the north of England before the election and when asked who they’d vote for they said “We might vote for Boris, I like what he says”.

I have utter contempt for the media who have conditioned people into subservience. Utter contempt for the Tories. Utter contempt for Momentum who politicise austerity but have done inadequately to properly engage and persuade with the likes who were interviewed. Utter contempt for Swinson and her bizarre presidential “Vote for Jo Swinson’s Lib Dem’s” campaign.

I know it's wrong but I seem to be feeling most disgust with Momentum and the Corbynites this morning. I should be angry with the Tories but I don't expect any better from them.

The Tories have done what Tories do, they haven't reinvented the wheel. The Labour Party on the other hand has been infested by ideologues who have engaged in a student union vanity project that every piece of historical evidence suggested was going to fail and almost every poll clearly pointed out was not connecting with those it needed to. They refused to give any concessions and look where it has got us. The sooner Corbyn and McDonell **** off the better as far as I'm concerned and they can take that clown Leonard with them.

[Cataplana]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.

There will be two choices on the ballot paper in a referendum. There were at least four here.

What we do know is the Tories said a vote for them was a vote against independence. They didn't poll too well in the number of votes cast.

[Cataplana]

Wonder if Johnson will now swivel to more centre ground

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

Johnson will be dead in a ditch soon. He is no longer of any use.

How long would it take the oaf to get the words Seig Heil out of his mouth?

Even then there's no guarantee he'd get his lines right.

[neil7908]

Wonder if Johnson will now swivel to more centre ground

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

I fear not. I think we have another Trump on our hands. Worst still, his majority means there are very few balances on his power and I'd imagine the glut of new MPs will be fully behind him.

[Colr]

In London 4 seats changed hands but the split overall remained the same. No overall change in London. Once again different to the rest of the country.


Labour have one seat in Scotland? Is that correct?

[Colr]

I know it's wrong but I seem to be feeling most disgust with Momentum and the Corbynites this morning. I should be angry with the Tories but I don't expect any better from them.

The Tories have done what Tories do, they haven't reinvented the wheel. The Labour Party on the other hand has been infested by ideologues who have engaged in a student union vanity project that every piece of historical evidence suggested was going to fail and almost every poll clearly pointed out was not connecting with those it needed to. They refused to give any concessions and look where it has got us. The sooner Corby and McDonell **** off the better as far as I'm concerned and they can take that clow Leonard with them.

Lansman was blaming the Labour collapse in Scotland on Brown/Blair. Even in 2010, Labour won 41 seats in Scotland.

Corbyn and his mob are just another colour if lying populists.

However, I’m most disappointed with the centre. Too much project fear and not enough people who know how to win. Mandleson, Campbell, Blair and Brown knew how to win. Boris is a **** politician but he knows how to win.

[Brightside]

Oh there will 100% be an IndyRef 2.

[Cataplana]

Lansman was blaming the Labour collapse in Scotland on Brown/Blair. Even in 2010, Labour won 41 seats in Scotland.

Corbyn and his mob are just another colour if lying populists.

However, I’m most disappointed with the centre. Too much project fear and not enough people who know how to win. Mandleson, Campbell, Blair and Brown knew how to win. Boris is a **** politician but he knows how to win.

They knew how to win by delivering Tory policies under a Labour banner.

[Northernhibee]

I’m delighted that Swinson lost her seat. Soon as she started saying that she could be prime minister, had buses with “Vote for Jo Swinson’s Liberal Democrat’s” with a photo of her and her Demon Headmaster death glare it was good to watch her vote share plummet and yet still they didn’t see the need to step aside.

It’s like watching the person on karaoke who thinks they’re fantastic and is sure that everyone is paying attention to them and won’t shut the **** up about it afterwards.

[Colr]

They knew how to win by delivering Tory policies under a Labour banner.

If you think that, you can’t have been paying much attention. It’s just not true.

[Colr]

I’m delighted that Swinson lost her seat. Soon as she started saying that she could be prime minister, had buses with “Vote for Jo Swinson’s Liberal Democrat’s” with a photo of her and her Demon Headmaster death glare it was good to watch her vote share plummet and yet still they didn’t see the need to step aside.

It’s like watching the person on karaoke who thinks they’re fantastic and is sure that everyone is paying attention to them and won’t shut the **** up about it afterwards.

Pretty poor campaign. Failed to articulate a vision.

[bingo70]

What are the immediate consequences of this result, apart from Johnson getting 5 years?

No deal Brexit? His Brexit deal?

When they spoke about the NHS being sold off what exactly does that mean and what will it look like?

[bingo70]

Pretty poor campaign. Failed to articulate a vision.

On a more personal level I thought she came across as a complete ********.

[CathroMustStay]

I voted No in the last independence referendum , but I would rather live in a progressive UK than a separate Scotland facing another decade of austerity after any independence vote. But I repeat, that is a debate for another time.

With all due respect, it is people like you that hold Scotland back.

The "United Kingdom" (i.e England) has just voted for a effing Boris Johnson landslide victory with Hard Brexit on its way, which means we will almost certainly be governed by the tories for 14-15 years (2010-2024/25), if not an additional 4-5 years (2010-2029/30) beyond that due to the scale of the deficit that Labour have to make up. All with historic trends that clearly indicated in the vast, vast majority of years from Thatcher's first win in 1979 until the present day... we are always governed by right wing governments we in Scotland did not vote for.

This three & a half years after Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the European Union.

All while the SNP have won the 2015 UK election in Scotland by a landslide, the 2016 Holyrood election with a +9 pro-indy majority in the parliament, the 2017 UK election in Scotland, and now another landslide in the 2019 UK election in Scotland. All with manifestos specifying the right to have a future #indyref2 in the event of evident 'material change'.

What on earth would it take for Unionists like you to wake up to the reality we need to join 180+ sovereign, independent nations in the world & take control (for better and for worse) of our own affairs.

[Pretty Boy]

They knew how to win by delivering Tory policies under a Labour banner.

By that do you mean they made a practical decision to appeal to voters both outside and inside the traditional Labour sphere to deliver the victory they required? It's been done to death but the achievements of New Labour are there for those who want to see them (and the failings too of course).

A left wing revolution isn't happening. I said last night, and I stand by it, the traditional Labour vote is too diffuse to run on such a ticket. The Labour vote isn't made up in it's entirety of people living on the breadline. There are plenty people who come from traditional Labour backgrounds who are now what we used to call Middle class but have a social conscience. The current incarnation of the Labour Party, by design or otherwise, managed to alienate them in spectacular fashion whilst also failing to capture the imagination of the deprived areas of England that voted for Brexit.

Continuing to blame the great bogeyman Tony Blair and the hellish New Labour a decade down the line just doesn't cut it.

[Colr]

On a more personal level I thought she came across as a complete ********.

She said some dumb things.

Not exactly an embarrassment of riches in the LibDems, though.

Maybe they can get Chukka in somewhere.

[Cataplana]

By that do you mean they made a practical decision to appeal to voters both outside and inside the traditional Labour sphere to deliver the victory they required? It's been done to death but the achievements of New Labour are there for those who want to see them (and the failings too of course).

A left wing revolution isn't happening. I said last night, and I stand by it, the traditional Labour vote is too diffuse to run on such a ticket. The Labour vote isn't made up in it's entirety of people living on the breadline. There are plenty people who come from traditional Labour backgrounds who are now what we used to call Middle class but have a social conscience. The current incarnation of the Labour Party, by design or otherwise, managed to alienate them in spectacular fashion whilst also failing to capture the imagination of the deprived areas of England that voted for Brexit.

Continuing to blame the great bogeyman Tony Blair and the hellish New Labour a decade down the line just doesn't cut it.

They made sure they saw the banks and financiers right, with deals like PFI.

[CathroMustStay]

Obviously a good night, seats-wise, for the SNP but I'm not convinced that it proves independence is any closer.

If you look at the vote share across Scotland then the pro-independence parties (SNP and Greens) fall short of the 50.1% that they would need in a referendum. In fact it's only slightly higher than the 44.7% who voted for independence 5 years ago as they got a combined 46% of all votes cast in Scotland yesterday - 45% SNP and 1% Greens. It's also quite a bit lower than the share they got in the 2015 General Election when they did manage over 50% of the vote.

I'm not sure independence is as much of a formality as many on here clearly hope it to be after the results from this election.

You do realise not every pro-independence supporter votes(voted) exclusively for the SNP & Green Party right?

Anyway with the racist, homophobic bigot BoJo winning a 76 seat majority, we shall see how the polls alter re a pro-independence majority, in the upcoming weeks and months.

[Hibbyradge]

They knew how to win by delivering Tory policies under a Labour banner.

Here are a few of those Tory policies. You can add in that well known policy of returning Trade Union rights to GCHQ to this list.


1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal - helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

[Weir07]

With all due respect, it is people like you that hold Scotland back.

The "United Kingdom" (i.e England) has just voted for a effing Boris Johnson landslide victory, which means we will almost certainly be governed by the tories for 14-15 years (2010-2024/25), if not an additional 4-5 years (2010-2029/30) beyond that due to the scale of the deficit that Labour have to make up. All with historic trends that clearly indicated in the vast, vast majority of years from Thatcher's first win in 1979 until the present day... we are always governed by right wing governments we in Scotland did not vote for.

This three & a half years after Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the European Union.

All while the SNP have won the 2015 UK election in Scotland by a landslide, the 2016 Holyrood election with a +9 pro-indy majority in the parliament, the 2017 UK election in Scotland, and now another landslide in the 2019 UK election in Scotland. All with manifestos specifying the right to have a future #indyref2 in the event of evident 'material change'.

What on earth would it take for Unionists like you to wake up to the reality we need to join 180+ sovereign, independent nations in the world & take control (for better and for worse) of our own affairs.

It might take over 50% of the population of Scotland wanting independence, just a thought.

[Pretty Boy]

They made sure they saw the banks and financiers right, with deals like PFI.

And that's all they done in 13 years in power? No positives?

Maybe we can list the positives that Corbyn et al have delivered for those who need it in their time at the top of the Labour Party.

[Hibbyradge]

They made sure they saw the banks and financiers right, with deals like PFI.

At least Corbyn didn't do that, eh?

No he didn't because he didn't do anything apart from facilitate what will be a brutal Brexit and at least 5 years of a horrible right wing Tory government.

[Cataplana]

At least Corbyn didn't do that, eh?

No he didn't because he didn't do anything apart from facilitate what will be a brutal Brexit and at least 5 years of a horrible right wing Tory government.

You make it sound like being anti capitalist is a bad thing for a socialist.

[Hibbyradge]

You make it sound like being anti capitalist is a bad thing for a socialist.

Being an unelectable arse is a bad thing for a Labour leader and the people who need a Labour government.

[Northernhibee]

With all due respect, it is people like you that hold Scotland back.

What on earth would it take for Unionists like you to wake up to the reality we need to join 180+ sovereign, independent nations in the world & take control (for better and for worse) of our own affairs.

And in those two paragraphs you display the same traits as the Corbynites who helped Labour tank so badly.

People are there to be persuaded, not labelled or told they’re holding a country back. I now back Scottish independence but it took me longer to get there after being called a yoon, a quisling, a Tory and a lot more.

People are hurting after last night. An arm around the shoulder will win more people over, a barrage will not.

[Hibbyradge]

You make it sound like being anti capitalist is a bad thing for a socialist.

By the way, in what way is facilitating 5 years more Tory rule helping to fight capitalism?

[The Modfather]

You make it sound like being anti capitalist is a bad thing for a socialist.

It’s all very well having ideals and principles, but they’re not much comfort to people being affected by by a Tory government moving ever more right in the here and now.

[Cataplana]

Being an unelectable arse is a bad thing for a Labour leader and the people who need a Labour government.

The people who need a Labour government voted for a xenophobic liar in droves.

Are you saying they are too thick to actually listen to the policies he was advocating?

[Hibbyradge]

The people who need a Labour government voted for a xenophobic liar in droves.

Are you saying they are too thick to actually listen to the policies he was advocating?

I'm saying that they, like me, thought that the leader of the Labour Party was an unelectable arse.

[Cataplana]

It’s all very well having ideals and principles, but they’re not much comfort to people being affected by by a Tory government moving ever more right in the here and now.

They need to look around them to their unprincipled neighbours. At least Corbyn was offering an improvement.

[Northernhibee]

They need to look around them to their unprincipled neighbours. At least Corbyn was offering an improvement.

Corbyn was offering Brexit on a platter by not working with other parties. You can’t complain about the 48% being ignored when the 48% become so tribal that they divided themselves several times over.

[Future17]

I bet Neale Hanvey is delighted the SNP didn’t reach 49 seats without his. Even if the allegations against him were not upheld, there’s no way they’d let him back into the party and risk Ruth Davidson skinny-dipping in Loch Ness.

[Cataplana]

I'm saying that they, like me, thought that the leader of the Labour Party was an unelectable arse.

Right, so what was needed was an electable arse like Johnson?

They wanted to be heard, they wanted something to believe in that was oven ready, they wanted a simple answer to their sense of injustice.

[CathroMustStay]

It might take over 50% of the population of Scotland wanting independence, just a thought.

Oh it will. Only a matter of time. FYI you don't need a majority in favour of an issue before being able to hold a referendum related to said issue... see the 1st indyref & erm... the Brexit referendum.

British Unionism is a dying right wing ideology that does not, and has not worked, for Scotland over the past four decades and now a Hard Brexit Boris Johnson landslide will ensure we will achieve independence.

Judging by your response, you clearly don't care about Scotland's situation in the wake of today's tory landslide.

[Pretty Boy]

Malcolm Chisholm publicly supporting indyref2 on Twitter:

Hope many of those against or undecided(me included)about independence will get behind incontrovertible democratic demand for indyref2.Hardest of hard Brexits and intolerable Johnson not what many No Voters had in mind in 2014 and SNP has 2016 changed circumstances mandate+GE2019

[Northernhibee]

Right, so what was needed was an electable arse like Johnson?

They wanted to be heard, they wanted something to believe in that was oven ready, they wanted a simple answer to their sense of injustice.

They said “we voted for Brexit and that’s what we want”. Corbyn didn’t explain why it was a bad idea and neither did the Corbynites (throwing out “racists” is a lot easier than offering meaningful persuasive dialogue) so when Corbyn went “I’ll go and also sort out a deal then we’ll do a vote and one way or another I won’t tell you which outcome I prefer” and Johnson said “oven ready, bosh” is it any surprise to you?

One party listened and the other didn’t.

[marinello59]

I’ve just woken up and I’ve decided it’s Thursday morning again, we still have to vote and there is still hope. I may be in this Groundhog Day style loop for a while.
Could anybody tell me the first thing I should be doing to keep Boris out tonight? Backing Swinson for PM maybe?

[Hibbyradge]

Right, so what was needed was an electable arse like Johnson?

They wanted to be heard, they wanted something to believe in that was oven ready, they wanted a simple answer to their sense of injustice.

They wanted some leadership. They got none from Corbyn.

The most important issue this country has faced since WW2 was Brexit and Corbyn abstained.

And, in 2016, when he said that he was 7/10 for remain, he basically gave voters in the heartlands permission to vote leave.

His refusal to condemn anti-Semitism, his history of ambiguous relationship with the IRA and other terrorist groups, and his weak persona made him a total liability, regardless of the party's manifesto.

A manifesto which few people believed or thought was in the slightest bit feasible.

[Cataplana]

I’ve just woken up and I’ve decided it’s Thursday morning again, we still have to vote and there is still hope. I may be in this Groundhog Day style loop for a while.
Could anybody tell me the first thing I should be doing to keep Boris out tonight? Backing Swinson for PM maybe?

I think you should go to a cafe first. Watch out for people spilling coffee.

[The Modfather]

I’ve just woken up and I’ve decided it’s Thursday morning again, we still have to vote and there is still hope. I may be in this Groundhog Day style loop for a while.
Could anybody tell me the first thing I should be doing to keep Boris out tonight? Backing Swinson for PM maybe?

You should kidnap Punxsutawney Phil!

[Glory Lurker]

What a disaster.

Until now I have never given up hope that brexit could be avoided. I've always felt that it is so insane that surely it won't happen. Naive, perhaps. Now I've finally given up that hope and it's heart-breaking. We have robbed our young people of opportunities and open-mindedness that weren't ours to play within the first place. We've given the green light to the exploiters and the xenophobes to come out of the shadows and run the game. What a legacy.

[Cataplana]

They wanted some leadership. They got none from Corbyn.

The most important issue this country has faced since WW2 was Brexit and Corbyn abstained.

And, in 2016, when he said that he was 7/10 for remain, he basically gave voters in the heartlands permission to vote leave.

His refusal to condemn anti-Semitism, his history of ambiguous relationship with the IRA and other terrorist groups, and his weak persona made him a total liability, regardless of the party's manifesto.

A manifesto which few people believed or thought was in the slightest bit feasible.

They voted for Brexit because they believed it was the answer. They were never going to entertain the idea they could have got it wrong.

I've said before, there is no reasoning with the mob.

[G B Young]

Being an unelectable arse is a bad thing for a Labour leader and the people who need a Labour government.

What sums Corbyn up is that despite overeeing his party's worst election result since 1935 he refuses to acknowledge his own part in their downfall, instead claiming it's all Brexit's fault. As a 'leader' who has destroyed his party's presence in huge swathes of previously rock solid Labour areas and effectively wiped them out in Scotland, it's mind-boggling that he hasn't done the honorable thing with immediate effect - instead shrouding his 'resignation' in typical dithering vagueness.

Johnson: "You the people of this country voted to be carbon neutural by 2050 and we'll do it. You also voted to be Corbyn neutral by Christmas." :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

They voted for Brexit because they believed it was the answer. They were never going to entertain the idea they could have got it wrong.

I've said before, there is no reasoning with the mob.

If Corbyn had taken a stronger pro-remain stance, along with not buggering off on holiday during the campaign, Brexit would have been avoided.

Corbyn did as little as he could to dissuade people of the view that Brexit was the answer.

Certainly, with him at the helm, Labour wasn't.

[Colr]

They made sure they saw the banks and financiers right, with deals like PFI.

I built and refurbished 28 secondary schools in 2 years under Labour’s PFI from standing start in 1997.

That was quite an impact compared to no new schools and patch repairs for the previous 10 years of Tory government.

[Northernhibee]

Just a thought - that feeling we have now of anger, injustice, being ignored, them versus us - the Brexit voters of the north of England have had that for three years now.

Add that the Corbynistas and similar haven’t handed out an arm to explain why or how Brexit is a bad idea but largely made them feel stupid and racist and it goes some way to explain why last night happened.

[Cataplana]

If Corbyn had taken a stronger pro-remain stance, and not buggered off on holiday during the campaign, Brexit would have been avoided.

Corbyn did as little as he could to dissuade people of the view that Brexit was the answer.

Certainly, with him at the helm, Labour wasn't.

Well, it's quite a defeat. I don't think he was ever going to win, and this stuff about being a terrorist sympathiser, was a tactic user against Foote for supporting Mandela.

I suspect the English don't like to go into detail too much, and putting up a guy who rugby tackles children was just the thing to win their votes..

[marinello59]

Well, it's quite a defeat. I don't think he was ever going to win, and this stuff about being a terrorist sympathiser, was a tactic user against Foote for supporting Mandela.

I suspect the English don't like to go into detail too much, and putting up a guy who rugby tackles children was just the thing to win their votes..

There were plenty of Scots and Welsh willing to vote Tory yesterday and most voters in England didn’t vote for him. Claiming that the English as a race don’t like to go on to detail etc is quite simply wrong and a route I hope we don’t go down.

[Onceinawhile]

And in those two paragraphs you display the same traits as the Corbynites who helped Labour tank so badly.

People are there to be persuaded, not labelled or told they’re holding a country back. I now back Scottish independence but it took me longer to get there after being called a yoon, a quisling, a Tory and a lot more.

People are hurting after last night. An arm around the shoulder will win more people over, a barrage will not.

Sometimes the worst advocates for Scottish Independence are those who support it.

Name calling and gloating over election results only entrenches the no vote further. For Scotland to be independent the "soft" no votes need to be won over. That won't happen if the "hard" no votes are getting absolute pelters.

[Cataplana]

There were plenty of Scots and Welsh willing to vote Tory yesterday and most voters in England didn’t vote for him. Claiming that the English as a race don’t like to go on to detail etc is quite simply wrong and a route I hope we don’t go down.

Of course it's wrong, but on a day like today, I need simple answers myself.

[Sir David Gray]

There will be two choices on the ballot paper in a referendum. There were at least four here.

What we do know is the Tories said a vote for them was a vote against independence. They didn't poll too well in the number of votes cast.

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

[Peevemor]

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

Except now you have guys like Malcolm Chisholm supporting a second indyref vote. There are already plenty of pro indy labour voters who will never vote SNP.

There are also the 16 & 17 year olds & foreign residents to throw into the mix.

You'll be coming out with the "once in a generation" stuff next.

[Cataplana]

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

I doubt think they are losing much sleep over it.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

You can cut it anyway you like, last night was a huge success for the SNP.

[Pagan Hibernia]

What sums Corbyn up is that despite overeeing his party's worst election result since 1935 he refuses to acknowledge his own part in their downfall, instead claiming it's all Brexit's fault. As a 'leader' who has destroyed his party's presence in huge swathes of previously rock solid Labour areas and effectively wiped them out in Scotland, it's mind-boggling that he hasn't done the honorable thing with immediate effect - instead shrouding his 'resignation' in typical dithering vagueness.

Johnson: "You the people of this country voted to be carbon neutural by 2050 and we'll do it. You also voted to be Corbyn neutral by Christmas." :greengrin


Labour were well on the way to extinction in Scotland before Corbyn became leader

[ronaldo7]

Malcolm Chisholm publicly supporting indyref2 on Twitter:

Hope many of those against or undecided(me included)about independence will get behind incontrovertible democratic demand for indyref2.Hardest of hard Brexits and intolerable Johnson not what many No Voters had in mind in 2014 and SNP has 2016 changed circumstances mandate+GE2019

Malcolm was always one of the good guys in the Labour party. Contrast that with the Scottish labour leader, and his comments in the early hours, and we know how we find ourselves with a tory landslide.

When will they ever learn.

[Cataplana]

Labour were well on the way to extinction in Scotland before Corbyn became leader

And in the North of England.

[Callum_62]

Another disaster of a night for winning party that forms the Scottish government.

As the saying goes, only in scotland

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

What a disaster.

Until now I have never given up hope that brexit could be avoided. I've always felt that it is so insane that surely it won't happen. Naive, perhaps. Now I've finally given up that hope and it's heart-breaking. We have robbed our young people of opportunities and open-mindedness that weren't ours to play within the first place. We've given the green light to the exploiters and the xenophobes to come out of the shadows and run the game. What a legacy.

There’s still independence fella.

My kids can have a Scottish EU passport and have all the benefits that we have enjoyed. That’s the only route back. Scotland must take it!

J

[ronaldo7]

Are Scottish labour too far gone to go it alone, start again as an independent party in Scotland, or does the money talk?

[Bristolhibby]

Are Scottish labour too far gone to go it alone, start again as an independent party in Scotland, or does the money talk?

I think Labour in general need to define who they are now. What is their reason?

If they don’t they are doomed particularly South of the border. As we saw, mining towns and Northern towns falling to the Tories. The Red Flag Union man down t’pit, **** Maggie. Is a dying breed.

Who are Labour?

If I was a Scottish Labour Party I would split from the South. And develop myself as a left leaning pro Independence Party. Better to be a player in a new country than a nobody.

But they have to strike now. In the chaos of the Tory landslide.

J

[One Day Soon]

I think Labour in general need to define who they are now. What is their reason?

If they don’t they are doomed particularly South of the border. As we saw, mining towns and Northern towns falling to the Tories. The Red Flag Union man down t’pit, **** Maggie. Is a dying breed.

Who are Labour?

If I was a Scottish Labour Party I would split from the South. And develop myself as a left leaning pro Independence Party. Better to be a player in a new country than a nobody.

But they have to strike now. In the chaos of the Tory landslide.

J


Labour is not a pro-independence party.

[G B Young]

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

I think you're right there. The pro union parties comfortably won a majority of the popular vote with the Tories in particular seeing their share of the vote (more than 25%) hold up significantly better than they may privately have feared without the Davidson factor. As was proven in 2015 a hefty chunk of seats does not prove that Scotland wants independence.

The SNP will be a party in a hurry to try and force another referendum next year, doomed as those attempts will prove. It remains to be seen what the upcoming Salmond court case has on their standing, while with Brexit now a certainty there is always the possibility it might work out better than many predict. Ditto Johnson's premiership. With a 'stonking great mandate' to govern now at his back he'll be free of the shackles of the likes of the ERG and (unthinkable as it may seem to his critics) we may see a different type of leader to the one he's been so far. His victory speech in the early hours certainly hinted at that.

[RyeSloan]

What a shock, not!

Corbyn was a total disaster waiting to happen yet he and his cronies were not for listening. No amount of bribes or give away’s or billions upon billions was going to persuade people to vote for such an inept ‘leader’.

The fact he has not resigned with immediate effect just sums him up.

[G B Young]

Labour were well on the way to extinction in Scotland before Corbyn became leader

Don't you think it's fair to say his hapless leadership played a role in their worst election result in almost a century?

[Glory Lurker]

I think you're right there. The pro union parties comfortably won a majority of the popular vote with the Tories in particular seeing their share of the vote (more than 25%) hold up significantly better than they may privately have feared without the Davidson factor. As was proven in 2015 a hefty chunk of seats does not prove that Scotland wants independence.

The SNP will be a party in a hurry to try and force another referendum next year, doomed as those attempts will prove. It remains to be seen what the upcoming Salmond court case has on their standing, while with Brexit now a certainty there is always the possibility it might work out better than many predict. Ditto Johnson's premiership. With a 'stonking great mandate' to govern now at his back he'll be free of the shackles of the likes of the ERG and (unthinkable as it may seem to his critics) we may see a different type of leader to the one he's been so far. His victory speech in the early hours certainly hinted at that.

SNP won larger share of the vote in Scotland than Tories did in UK, so I take it Johnson has even less of a mandate?

[Cataplana]

I think you're right there. The pro union parties comfortably won a majority of the popular vote with the Tories in particular seeing their share of the vote (more than 25%) hold up significantly better than they may privately have feared without the Davidson factor. As was proven in 2015 a hefty chunk of seats does not prove that Scotland wants independence.

The SNP will be a party in a hurry to try and force another referendum next year, doomed as those attempts will prove. It remains to be seen what the upcoming Salmond court case has on their standing, while with Brexit now a certainty there is always the possibility it might work out better than many predict. Ditto Johnson's premiership. With a 'stonking great mandate' to govern now at his back he'll be free of the shackles of the likes of the ERG and (unthinkable as it may seem to his critics) we may see a different type of leader to the one he's been so far. His victory speech in the early hours certainly hinted at that.

Jackson Carlaw said "every vote for us is a vote to stop the referendum."

It appears that only 25% of voters took him up on the deal.

[marinello59]

SNP won larger share of the vote in Scotland than Tories did in UK, so I take it Johnson has even less of a mandate?

Sturgeon addressed this last night by saying that she accepted Johnson has a mandate to deliver Brexit and she respects it, now he has to do the same. Kezia Dugdale described its as a really clever moment and she was right.

[Glory Lurker]

Sturgeon addressed this last night by saying that she accepted Johnson has a mandate to deliver Brexit and she respects it, now he has to do the same. Kezia Dugdale described its as a really clever moment and she was right.

I know. I agree with Nicola (shock :-)). I was addressing what GBY was saying.

[One Day Soon]

Well, this nails it: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1205421888379465728.html (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1205421888379465728.html)

hthttps://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1205421888379465728.htmltps://twitter.com/d4nf0x/status/1205421888379465728

[Deansy]

Are Scottish labour too far gone to go it alone, start again as an independent party in Scotland, or does the money talk?

My dream/hope is that once we become Independent, a genuine, authentic, Scottish Labour party will emerge out of it, one with no links whatsoever to Westminster !

[Glory Lurker]

There’s still independence fella.

My kids can have a Scottish EU passport and have all the benefits that we have enjoyed. That’s the only route back. Scotland must take it!

J

Definitely agree with this. Just processing my political pain at the moment. I'll get my tail back up again soon enough [thumbs up emoji]!

[lapsedhibee]

Sturgeon addressed this last night by saying that she accepted Johnson has a mandate to deliver Brexit and she respects it, now he has to do the same. Kezia Dugdale described its as a really clever moment and she was right.

(To be completely clear, she said that Johnson had got a mandate for Brexit in England and she respected that …)

[Pretty Boy]

Malcolm was always one of the good guys in the Labour party. Contrast that with the Scottish labour leader, and his comments in the early hours, and we know how we find ourselves with a tory landslide.

When will they ever learn.

Yep I put him in the same bracket as the likes of Mark Lazarowicz. Good guys who have their beliefs. If these guys could be convinced an independent Scottish Labour Party could flourish in an independent Scotland then it would be great to see them on board.

[G B Young]

Shame. Absolute tosser who couldn't wait to stick the knife in against his own leader.

Who could blame Murray for campaigning on an anti-Corbyn ticket? It's ensured he won Labour's only Scottish seat - and by a huge majority, totally bucking the trend for his party elsewhere. As he has stated, he and his team came face to face with constituent after constituent telling them they can't abide Corbyn. I don't know the guy and he may be a yam, but I say credit to him for being honest and assuring those constituents Labour wouldn't win but that he would like to be judged on his record as a local MP. He's the one who's ended up looking like a winner compared to his party leader.

[matty_f]

They wanted some leadership. They got none from Corbyn.

The most important issue this country has faced since WW2 was Brexit and Corbyn abstained.

And, in 2016, when he said that he was 7/10 for remain, he basically gave voters in the heartlands permission to vote leave.

His refusal to condemn anti-Semitism, his history of ambiguous relationship with the IRA and other terrorist groups, and his weak persona made him a total liability, regardless of the party's manifesto.

A manifesto which few people believed or thought was in the slightest bit feasible.

I'm no Corbyn fan but I saw him condemn anti-semitism on several occasions.

[marinello59]

(To be completely clear, she said that Johnson had got a mandate for Brexit in England and she respected that …)

Well we could nitpick or just admire her political skill here. 😃

[marinello59]

I'm no Corbyn fan but I saw him condemn anti-semitism on several occasions.

Yes he did but the actions of his party where they failed to deal with it were down to him to manage and he failed.

[ronaldo7]

My dream/hope is that once we become Independent, a genuine, authentic, Scottish Labour party will emerge out of it, one with no links whatsoever to Westminster !

I actually think they could get there, but they'd have to be bold, and strike out on their own. Some long hard conversations to be had in the party.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm no Corbyn fan but I saw him condemn anti-semitism on several occasions.

Ok. I didn't see that, but I know he refused to say sorry several times on the Andrew Neil show and only did so reluctantly after being asked several more times by Philip Schofield.

Like his "support" for remain, his stance and actions against anti-Semitism were lacklustre at best.

[Cataplana]

Sturgeon addressed this last night by saying that she accepted Johnson has a mandate to deliver Brexit and she respects it, now he has to do the same. Kezia Dugdale described its as a really clever moment and she was right.

Despite expecting her to be a car crash, I found Kez an insightful and sharp analyst.

[G B Young]

Jackson Carlaw said "every vote for us is a vote to stop the referendum."

It appears that only 25% of voters took him up on the deal.

Add to that the 30% who voted Lib Dem and Labour and there remains a significant majority who don't back another referendum. As Sturgeon herself said, even those who voted SNP don't necessarily want independence.

I'd have jumped ship had Corbyn won (though thankfully that always seemed a fantasy) but while I generally find Sturgeon an impressive politician I thought her very public celebrations at Swinson losing her seat were undignified and ill becoming of a party leader.

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour is not a pro-independence party.

Not yet.

[Green Man]

Yep I put him in the same bracket as the likes of Mark Lazarowicz. Good guys who have their beliefs. If these guys could be convinced an independent Scottish Labour Party could flourish in an independent Scotland then it would be great to see them on board.

I had some brief correspondence with Mark Lazarowicz when he was my MP, and he struck me as a good guy. We disagreed on the independence question, but he was a politician who stood up for his beliefs and wanted to - and did - make a positive difference for his constituents.

[marinello59]

I actually think they could get there, but they'd have to be bold, and strike out on their own. Some long hard conversations to be had in the party.

Who will lead Scottish Labour out of the mess they are in? I really can’t see any suitable candidates.

[Hibbyradge]

Add to that the 30% who voted Lib Dem and Labour and there remains a significant majority who don't back another referendum. As Sturgeon herself said, even those who voted SNP don't necessarily want independence.

I'd have jumped ship had Corbyn won (though thankfully that always seemed a fantasy) but while I generally find Sturgeon an impressive politician I thought her very public celebrations at Swinson losing her seat were undignified and ill becoming of a party leader.

She was celebrating her party's candidate winning a stunning victory, no?

[Cataplana]

Add to that the 30% who voted Lib Dem and Labour and there remains a significant majority who don't back another referendum. As Sturgeon herself said, even those who voted SNP don't necessarily want independence.

I'd have jumped ship had Corbyn won (though thankfully that always seemed a fantasy) but while I generally find Sturgeon an impressive politician I thought her very public celebrations at Swinson losing her seat were undignified and ill becoming of a party leader.

No, he didn't say anything about adding votes. He stood his party on a ticket of being the only ones to stop the SNP. That acknowledged that other parties would be campaigning on other issues.

Dry your eyes, her celebrations were for her own party winning. That's like saying the guys on the pitch at Hampden were celebrating Rangers losing the cup .

Such vanity.

[marinello59]

Not yet.

It’s a good point. Looking at the results last night there were a lot of seats where it looked like Labour supporters had moved directly to the SNP.

[marinello59]

She was celebrating her party's candidate winning a stunning victory, no?

Exactly. She praised Swinson afterwards and offered sympathy.

[lapsedhibee]

Add to that the 30% who voted Lib Dem and Labour and there remains a significant majority who don't back another referendum. As Sturgeon herself said, even those who voted SNP don't necessarily want independence.


That's not necessarily true. There will be many Scottish Lib Dem and Labour voters yesterday who will be horrified at the outcome of the UK election and will be rethinking their attitudes this morning. If there is a majority against an independence referendum it may be quite tiny.

[Peevemor]

She was celebrating her party's candidate winning a stunning victory, no?

Exactly. Her party's candidate took a big scalp.

One of the reasons that Sturgeon is popular is that she comes across as an ordinary person. Her reaction made me smile because I can relate to it.

[Hibbyradge]

Presumably a lot of people who voted Lib Dem did so to oppose Brexit. They'll be more inclined to support Indy if it means rejoining the EU, no?

[ronaldo7]

Add to that the 30% who voted Lib Dem and Labour and there remains a significant majority who don't back another referendum. As Sturgeon herself said, even those who voted SNP don't necessarily want independence.

I'd have jumped ship had Corbyn won (though thankfully that always seemed a fantasy) but while I generally find Sturgeon an impressive politician I thought her very public celebrations at Swinson losing her seat were undignified and ill becoming of a party leader.

You must be kidding about Nicolas celebrations of the win when, Amy Callaghan ousted Swinson.

She was absolutely delighted with the victory of a young upcoming SNP politician she helped mentor.

Next time we score against the yams, I'll look out for you, you'll be the one sitting on your hands because the poor yams lost a goal. 😆

[G B Young]

No, he didn't say anything about adding votes. He stood his party on a ticket of being the only ones to stop the SNP. That acknowledged that other parties would be campaigning on other issues.

Dry your eyes, her celebrations were for her own party winning. That's like saying the guys on the pitch at Hampden were celebrating Rangers losing the cup .

Such vanity.

No need to dry my eyes - pretty happy with the way things have panned out and especially relieved to see Corbynism dealt a fatal blow.

[Cataplana]

No need to dry my eyes - pretty happy with the way things have panned out and especially relieved to see Corbynism dealt a fatal blow.

Sorry, I thought you were upset about Sturgeons behaviour. Seems that wasn't what you were trying to say at all.

[G B Young]

Just thinking there must be knighthood in the offing somewhere down the line for Dominic Cummings. Whatever you think of him, as a strategist he's extraordinary. All but single-handedly delivered Brexit against all the odds - and to follow that up by engineering a path through an election campaign minefield and deliver such a hefty majority for a PM who was formerly likely to self-destruct takes some doing. Certainly one of Johnson's shrewdest decisions to bring him on board and compared to the hopeless duo (can't actually recall their names) who led May's campaign down the tubes it's quite a turnaround.

[G B Young]

Sorry, I thought you were upset about Sturgeons behaviour. Seems that wasn't what you were trying to say at all.

Yes, i thought it was beneath her but I'm glad to hear she commiserated with Swinson afterwards.

[ronaldo7]

Who will lead Scottish Labour out of the mess they are in? I really can’t see any suitable candidates.

Nobody in the SP, that's for sure. They may need to get onside with Indyref2, and if we win, some ex Labour, now SNP people might help.

[Cataplana]

Yes, i thought it was beneath her but I'm glad to hear she commiserated with Swinson afterwards.

Right.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Just thinking there must be knighthood in the offing somewhere down the line for Dominic Cummings. Whatever you think of him, as a strategist he's extraordinary. All but single-handedly delivered Brexit against all the odds - and to follow that up by engineering a path through an election campaign minefield and deliver such a hefty majority for a PM who was formerly likely to self-destruct takes some doing. Certainly one of Johnson's shrewdest decisions to bring him on board and compared to the hopeless duo (can't actually recall their names) who led May's campaign down the tubes it's quite a turnaround.


Can't deny any of this. I did wonder this morning, that if George Orwell wrote 1984 now and tried to publish it , which country would ban it first? The UK, the USA or Russia.

[lapsedhibee]

Just thinking there must be knighthood in the offing somewhere down the line for Dominic Cummings. Whatever you think of him, as a strategist he's extraordinary. All but single-handedly delivered Brexit against all the odds ...

Hardly all the odds. You're aware of the Mail, Express and Telegraph?

[Sir David Gray]

Except now you have guys like Malcolm Chisholm supporting a second indyref vote. There are already plenty of pro indy labour voters who will never vote SNP.

There are also the 16 & 17 year olds & foreign residents to throw into the mix.

You'll be coming out with the "once in a generation" stuff next.

Please don't make assumptions on what "stuff" I'm going to be coming out with.

It's "stuff" like this that really puts me off this forum and independence in general.

I happen to believe that although I will never vote SNP, they do have enough of a mandate from the Scottish electorate to have the right to ask for another referendum on independence, especially since the Brexit vote has now happened since 2014.

My point is the people of Scotland knew that a vote yesterday for any party other than the SNP threatened the chance of a second independence referendum and less than half of voters put their X against the SNP.

If Nicola Sturgeon wants a new referendum in the next 12 months then I don't think she should be too confident of the outcome as things stand.


You can cut it anyway you like, last night was a huge success for the SNP.

Seats-wise of course it was, that was the first thing I said in my first post. Looking deeper at the ultimate goal of independence, I'm not sure it was much of a success.

[Killiehibbie]

Nobody in the SP, that's for sure. They may need to get onside with Indyref2, and if we win, some ex Labour, now SNP people might help.


Get a quarter of the people who couldn't be bothered voting the last time onside and it's done.

[Peevemor]

Please don't make assumptions on what "stuff" I'm going to be coming out with.

It's "stuff" like this that really puts me off this forum and independence in general.

I happen to believe that although I will never vote SNP, they do have enough of a mandate from the Scottish electorate to have the right to ask for another referendum on independence, especially since the Brexit vote has now happened since 2014.

My point is the people of Scotland knew that a vote yesterday for any party other than the SNP threatened the chance of a second independence referendum and less than half of voters put their X against the SNP.

If Nicola Sturgeon wants a new referendum in the next 12 months then I don't think she should be too confident of the outcome as things stand.



Seats-wise of course it was, that was the first thing I said in my first post. Looking deeper at the ultimate goal of independence, I'm not sure it was much of a success.

If you're big enough to give your opinion you should be able to take what I said.

Your "less than half the vote" "stuff" strikes me as straw clutching in the extreme, as is the much cited "once in a generation" line, which was never official and was only said once in an interview.

[Hibbyradge]

Please don't make assumptions on what "stuff" I'm going to be coming out with.

It's "stuff" like this that really puts me off this forum and independence in general.

I happen to believe that although I will never vote SNP, they do have enough of a mandate from the Scottish electorate to have the right to ask for another referendum on independence, especially since the Brexit vote has now happened since 2014.

My point is the people of Scotland knew that a vote yesterday for any party other than the SNP threatened the chance of a second independence referendum and less than half of voters put their X against the SNP.

If Nicola Sturgeon wants a new referendum in the next 12 months then I don't think she should be too confident of the outcome as things stand.



Seats-wise of course it was, that was the first thing I said in my first post. Looking deeper at the ultimate goal of independence, I'm not sure it was much of a success.

It's definitely not quite as simple as that.

For a start, the election was primarily about Brexit even if the Tories tried to make it about independence.

75% of the Scottish electorate voted against Boris Johnson's Tories.

10% voted for the Lib Dems. Many of them will vote for independence if it means re-joining the EU.

It's not clear cut at all.

[The Modfather]

Please don't make assumptions on what "stuff" I'm going to be coming out with.

It's "stuff" like this that really puts me off this forum and independence in general.

I happen to believe that although I will never vote SNP, they do have enough of a mandate from the Scottish electorate to have the right to ask for another referendum on independence, especially since the Brexit vote has now happened since 2014.

My point is the people of Scotland knew that a vote yesterday for any party other than the SNP threatened the chance of a second independence referendum and less than half of voters put their X against the SNP.

If Nicola Sturgeon wants a new referendum in the next 12 months then I don't think she should be too confident of the outcome as things stand.



Seats-wise of course it was, that was the first thing I said in my first post. Looking deeper at the ultimate goal of independence, I'm not sure it was much of a success.

I don’t think anyone really thinks, as things stand just now, that support for independence is such that it can be taken for granted. I think the optimism comes from the fact the starting point is probably sitting somewhere close to 50/50, which is a sizeable difference from the starting point of Indy Ref 1.

There’s still a lot of meat to be put on the bones about things like currency, EU membership etc etc. However, I’d not fancy a job on better together 2 this time round. A Project Fear approach won’t work IMO, and it’s a tough sell finding the positives to leaving the EU and another 5 years of a Tory government moving further right.

[Pretty Boy]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

[Bristolhibby]

Labour is not a pro-independence party.

That’s my point. They need to reinvent themselves as one. Or they are gone.

What’s the phrase? Evolve or Die.

It’s up to them.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

1 family member, can't stand Corbyn but voted Lab.

[JimBHibees]

Hardly all the odds. You're aware of the Mail, Express and Telegraph?

Indeed hardly the arch strategist when virulently right wing press running his campaign for him. How many headlines in a row did the Express have against immigrants? It does show how influential the press have been when the least qualified PM in history can win in such a manner.

[Northernhibee]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

I’ve not met them but one of my partners colleagues votes Tory.

[ronaldo7]

The union was on the ballot paper yesterday, according to the tory leader in Scotland.

80% of the seats won by the SNP.

We're on different paths.

[The Harp Awakes]

[QUOTE=Sir David Gray;6014857]This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

[The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion/QUOTE]

I see there's a good dose of clutching at straws and a second course of soor plums from unionists on here today.

The bit in bold is laughable. So by that token Boris should be extremely worried about polling less than 50% of votes in the UK yesterday and even more worried than Nicola Sturgeon as the Tory % of the UK vote was less than the SNP % of the Scottish vote.

You need to try a bit harder than that:faf:

The result last night was phenomenal for the SNP; a higher number of seats and % vote than any opinion poll conducted during the campaign.

The tories in Scotland went into overdrive over the campaign standing on a ticket of stopping Nicola and indyref2. They failed spectacularly and ended up losing more than half their seats. When you compare how well the tories have done in the UK and how badly they have done in Scotland, the performance gap is enormous.

Whether the SNP's landslide was 40%, 45% or 50% is irrelevant. The mandate for indyref2 is cast iron. That's all that matters today.

A 2nd referendum on independence will take it's own course, with a 49.3% starting point for Yes this time (latest opinion poll which also underestimated the SNPs winning margin yesterday), rather than a 28% starting point in 2014.

[lapsedhibee]

Indeed hardly the arch strategist when virulently right wing press running his campaign for him. How many headlines in a row did the Express have against immigrants? It does show how influential the press have been when the least qualified PM in history can win in such a manner.

Mail Express and Telegraph have been publishing lies about the EU for about four decades. There was never any proper scrutiny, in Britain, of those lies. Cummings's achievement is to manipulate a stooge who is happy to tell the same lies in person, and embrace social media to tell lies to younger people. There hasn't been much proper scrutiny of the lies in this election campaign. If that's genius, then he's a genius. Against all the odds, apparently.

[Helensburghhibs]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

If they are in the NHS in Scotland do they not hold the snp accountable at all since they run it?

[Cataplana]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

I think a more scientific survey would really be needed.

From experience politics is rarely a topic of conversation. There are so many other things to fall out over.

Talking about nurses in particular, check out the biggest nurses union the RCN. Not exactly a hot bed of activism.

[Pretty Boy]

If they are in the NHS in Scotland do they not hold the snp accountable at all since they run it?

Not all of them work in Scotland.

The one's that do seem to be off the opinion the NHS here is far from perfect but in better shape than elsewhere. I don't think there were many ringing endorsements of the SNP at the last Scottish elections but nothing like the vitriol aimed at the Tories last night. I took it as a show of solidarity with their colleagues and friends elsewhere in the UK.

[Cataplana]

If they are in the NHS in Scotland do they not hold the snp accountable at all since they run it?

And still peoples lives are a political football.

[Northernhibee]

[QUOTE=Sir David Gray;6014857]This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

[The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion/QUOTE]

I see there's a good dose of clutching at straws and a second course of soor plums from unionists on here today.


Whether the SNP's landslide was 40%, 45% or 50% is irrelevant. The mandate for indyref2 is cast iron. That's all that matters today.
And yet another totally unhelpful post. I’ll be voting yes in an indyref2 but “all that matters” after last night is good friends I’ve got in the north of England are going to have a horrible time and the first few years after an independence vote ain’t going to be bread and roses either.

All that matters is that we are all headed in a ****ty direction that will cost jobs and livelihoods. Do I think even the majority of people who votes for it are stupid and racist, **** no I don’t after decades of anti EU pro Tory propaganda in almost every news outlet and I’m angry as **** they’ve been persuaded into that position.

With every respect, with your use of “unionist” and “all that matters” you come across as the same as the “Brexit at any cost, bloody remoaner “ type. It’s not a good look and it’s not a persuasive look either.

If enough swinging voters are pushed away from the Indy cause then we are shackled to this. It’s time to be persuasive.

[Cataplana]

[QUOTE=The Harp Awakes;6014962]
And yet another totally unhelpful post. I’ll be voting yes in an indyref2 but “all that matters” after last night is good friends I’ve got in the north of England are going to have a horrible time and the first few years after an independence vote ain’t going to be bread and roses either.

All that matters is that we are all headed in a ****ty direction that will cost jobs and livelihoods. Do I think even the majority of people who votes for it are stupid and racist, **** no I don’t after decades of anti EU pro Tory propaganda in almost every news outlet and I’m angry as **** they’ve been persuaded into that position.

With every respect, with your use of “unionist” and “all that matters” you come across as the same as the “Brexit at any cost, bloody remoaner “ type. It’s not a good look and it’s not a persuasive look either.

I can't be as charitable.

With the clear evidence that austerity was the result of the banks, the chose to blame immigrants instead

[Northernhibee]

[QUOTE=Northernhibee;6014973]

I can't be as charitable.

With the clear evidence that austerity was the result of the banks, the chose to blame immigrants instead
Did they? A very vocal group did, but most of them?

What did you do to persuade otherwise?

[marinello59]

Mail Express and Telegraph have been publishing lies about the EU for about four decades. There was never any proper scrutiny, in Britain, of those lies. Cummings's achievement is to manipulate a stooge who is happy to tell the same lies in person, and embrace social media to tell lies to younger people. There hasn't been much proper scrutiny of the lies in this election campaign. If that's genius, then he's a genius. Against all the odds, apparently.

The editorial line put out by the Telegraph has certainly been countered by the Guardian and The Independent. Johnson's lies were highlighted in the press and on the news channels etc including the BBC. Like Trump he was voted in despite of them, people just didn't care enough. Cummings knew that would be the case if he just got Johnson to stick to 'Get Brexit done.' when challenged.

[The Harp Awakes]

[QUOTE=The Harp Awakes;6014962]
And yet another totally unhelpful post. I’ll be voting yes in an indyref2 but “all that matters” after last night is good friends I’ve got in the north of England are going to have a horrible time and the first few years after an independence vote ain’t going to be bread and roses either.

All that matters is that we are all headed in a ****ty direction that will cost jobs and livelihoods. Do I think even the majority of people who votes for it are stupid and racist, **** no I don’t after decades of anti EU pro Tory propaganda in almost every news outlet and I’m angry as **** they’ve been persuaded into that position.

With every respect, with your use of “unionist” and “all that matters” you come across as the same as the “Brexit at any cost, bloody remoaner “ type. It’s not a good look and it’s not a persuasive look either.

If enough swinging voters are pushed away from the Indy cause then we are shackled to this. It’s time to be persuasive.

The election just fought in Scotland was about Brexit and indyref2. The Scottish Conservatives and Unionist party and the Scottish National Party concentrated their campaigns on the constitutional issues.

I don't get your sensitivity around the terms Unionist and Nationalist. It is in each party's name.

My main point was about bring accurate and honest about the outcome yesterday which you ignored.

[Jones28]

Does anyone know anyone employed in the NHS who voted Tory?

My sister is a nurse at the Sick Kids and she sees the NHS day in, day out. She didn't vote Tory. My girlfriends cousin is a urologist who has worked in the NHS for years and has just qualified as a consultant, the starting salary for that role is circa £80K per annum, she's privately educated and from a wealthy background in South England. She didn't vote Tory. I have several friends who are nurses, physios and dieticians working within the NHS and every single one was encouraging people to vote for a party other than the Tories.

I'm aware people I know is hardly a representative sample but people within the system don't seem to trust the Tories one bit with the NHS and they see the goings on day in, day out.

A junior doctor mate of mine voted torie in 2017, I’m not sure what he did this time around but I don’t think he did.

[lapsedhibee]

The editorial line put out by the Telegraph has certainly been countered by the Guardian and The Independent. Johnson's lies were highlighted in the press and on the news channels etc including the BBC. Like Trump he was voted in despite of them, people just didn't care enough. Cummings knew that would be the case if he just got Johnson to stick to 'Get Brexit done.' when challenged.

The BBC and media in general were far too late in accusing Johnson of lying. At the beginning of the campaign they were dancing around the issue, wondering whether 'lying' was appropriate terminology. It took them long enough to stop referring to him as Boris and everyone else by their surname. Lamentable scrutiny throughout, though some of that was deliberately engineered by the genius.

[Northernhibee]

[QUOTE=Northernhibee;6014973]

The election just fought in Scotland was about Brexit and indyref2. The Scottish Conservatives and Unionist party and the Scottish National Party concentrated their campaigns on the constitutional issues.

I don't get your sensitivity around the terms Unionist and Nationalist. It is in each party's name.

My main point was about bring accurate and honest about the outcome yesterday.

It's the context of it. I was a no voter in the first indy referendum and I will be a yes voter in the second. I have been convinced by it of my own decision but never persuaded by others as I was called (with many not making this list) - a traitor, quisling, "yoon", prick, Tory, coward, feartie and more.

If you add the term "unionist" to that for someone who can be persuaded (which I believe is a larger group than people will realise) then you give it an entirely negative connotation and you entrench that person in their position.

Looking back at the last five years of politics I think that history will look back at us on the remain side very badly. The snake oil salesmen told the north of England - a group who felt isolated, unlistened to and powerless - that they could make their voice heard and after decades of newspapers running stories about "non bendy EU bananas" and the like there was an easy thing to attach that to. They felt as if they had a voice and when it came to engaging with remain supporters way too many of us came back to the same way of writing off their voice as "racist" or "stupid" when actually it was a response to actually having a chance to show their voice and enact change - and if you lived in an impoverished down for 30 years and you felt you had nothing to lose - that would be appealing.

They were told that they weren't listened to and in the chances that we had to engage we, in too large a percentage, didn't listen and dismissed their concerns.

We failed. Badly.

[Ozyhibby]

Wish people would stop blaming the Tories. They did everything you would expect of them and they won. The blame as always lies with the losing team, especially in this case where they deliberately sabotaged themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Helensburghhibs]

Not all of them work in Scotland.

The one's that do seem to be off the opinion the NHS here is far from perfect but in better shape than elsewhere. I don't think there were many ringing endorsements of the SNP at the last Scottish elections but nothing like the vitriol aimed at the Tories last night. I took it as a show of solidarity with their colleagues and friends elsewhere in the UK.

👍

[Hibrandenburg]

Presumably a lot of people who voted Lib Dem did so to oppose Brexit. They'll be more inclined to support Indy if it means rejoining the EU, no?

That's pretty much where I'm at and regarding Labour's ambiguity regarding their stance on Brexit I'm sure there's a few of them now weighing up the pros and cons of Union or Europe. Last night might be a turning point and every former No voter won over for the Yes campaign is worth double points.

[Helensburghhibs]

And still peoples lives are a political football.

😂 So if these questions don't interests people or shouldn't be asked what is the point of having a democracy with more than one party? The NHS is one of the biggest things governments will be judged on. A bit like claiming we shouldn't discuss league position when evaluating a managers performance.

[One Day Soon]

It’s a good point. Looking at the results last night there were a lot of seats where it looked like Labour supporters had moved directly to the SNP.


It's not really. If your support moves directly to the SNP - or anyone else - you don't then try to work out how you can be the SNP, you try to work out how to attract those voters back.

The flip side of this argument would be for the SNP to give up on its founding principle if it were electorally unpopular in order to win more votes. What is the point of a political party that just wants votes to no political purpose? I mean, isn't that just the Liberal Democrats?

[JeMeSouviens]

And yet another totally unhelpful post. I’ll be voting yes in an indyref2 but “all that matters” after last night is good friends I’ve got in the north of England are going to have a horrible time and the first few years after an independence vote ain’t going to be bread and roses either.

All that matters is that we are all headed in a ****ty direction that will cost jobs and livelihoods. Do I think even the majority of people who votes for it are stupid and racist, **** no I don’t after decades of anti EU pro Tory propaganda in almost every news outlet and I’m angry as **** they’ve been persuaded into that position.

With every respect, with your use of “unionist” and “all that matters” you come across as the same as the “Brexit at any cost, bloody remoaner “ type. It’s not a good look and it’s not a persuasive look either.

If enough swinging voters are pushed away from the Indy cause then we are shackled to this. It’s time to be persuasive.

Liking your posts today. It’s not cowardly to feel a wrench at giving up on Britain or to fear for your own or those close to you’s jobs and livelihoods. Indy will be a hard road in the short term , but imo more than worth it in the long run.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's the context of it. I was a no voter in the first indy referendum and I will be a yes voter in the second. I have been convinced by it of my own decision but never persuaded by others as I was called (with many not making this list) - a traitor, quisling, "yoon", prick, Tory, coward, feartie and more.

If you add the term "unionist" to that for someone who can be persuaded (which I believe is a larger group than people will realise) then you give it an entirely negative connotation and you entrench that person in their position.

Looking back at the last five years of politics I think that history will look back at us on the remain side very badly. The snake oil salesmen told the north of England - a group who felt isolated, unlistened to and powerless - that they could make their voice heard and after decades of newspapers running stories about "non bendy EU bananas" and the like there was an easy thing to attach that to. They felt as if they had a voice and when it came to engaging with remain supporters way too many of us came back to the same way of writing off their voice as "racist" or "stupid" when actually it was a response to actually having a chance to show their voice and enact change - and if you lived in an impoverished down for 30 years and you felt you had nothing to lose - that would be appealing.

They were told that they weren't listened to and in the chances that we had to engage we, in too large a percentage, didn't listen and dismissed their concerns.

We failed. Badly.

There was a window where either a soft brexit ora ref2 could have been achieved if either option had been coalesced around. Both factions should be feeling very bad about themselves today.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not really. If your support moves directly to the SNP - or anyone else - you don't then try to work out how you can be the SNP, you try to work out how to attract those voters back.

The flip side of this argument would be for the SNP to give up on its founding principle if it were electorally unpopular in order to win more votes. What is the point of a political party that just wants votes to no political purpose? I mean, isn't that just the Liberal Democrats?

It’s not a founding principle of S Lab to support Unioinism. Keir Hardie and Cunningham Graham were ardent home rulers, when that meant something like the Irish Free State became.

[One Day Soon]

If you're big enough to give your opinion you should be able to take what I said.

Your "less than half the vote" "stuff" strikes me as straw clutching in the extreme, as is the much cited "once in a generation" line, which was never official and was only said once in an interview.


Your alternative view to his comes across a bit similarly. Last night's election had all sorts of cross currents bubbling away and dismissing the effect of those on the ultimate outcome is a little rash. There's much more to last night's result all across the UK than meets the eye and anyone taking seat tallies now and saying it unequivocally means this or that is pushing an agenda.

The once in a generation defence lines from SNP voices would be more convincing if they were at least consistent. It's not like the statement was made by some no-mark passer by - it was Salmond himself. I can think of at least five different explanation/denial lines used and they all just come across as weakly defensive.

Time to settle down for the next phase. Lots of grievance stoking between now and the next SP elections about Scotland demanding another referendum (with no actual real desire for one until after 2021 elections), seeking a majority SNP and GreenNat position on Indyref2 in those elections and then an actual Indyref2 in 2021/2022 should that majority be gained. Pity really, I'd rather do it next year after March and get it over with.

[One Day Soon]

I don’t think anyone really thinks, as things stand just now, that support for independence is such that it can be taken for granted. I think the optimism comes from the fact the starting point is probably sitting somewhere close to 50/50, which is a sizeable difference from the starting point of Indy Ref 1.

There’s still a lot of meat to be put on the bones about things like currency, EU membership etc etc. However, I’d not fancy a job on better together 2 this time round. A Project Fear approach won’t work IMO, and it’s a tough sell finding the positives to leaving the EU and another 5 years of a Tory government moving further right.


Good balanced post. This stuff has arms and legs all over the place on both sides and there are big negatives and positives for both to address. I don't think either side in a future referendum would want a marginal result either. 52/48, 51/49 or anything approaching those isn't going to cut it after the Brexit shambles. A slam dunk either way would be preferable to a split country.

[Northernhibee]

There was a window where either a soft brexit ora ref2 could have been achieved if either option had been coalesced around. Both factions should be feeling very bad about themselves today.

I really can't stand Nicola Sturgeon and I thought her reaction last night was most undiplomatic but to her credit, she did talk about how she was willing to compromise and look at a customs union arrangement Brexit for a while.

If only Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn could have done the same and joined forces seeing the real danger in this election. If only Jo Swinson and Nicola Sturgeon could have held strong and not accepted the offer of a general election until we knew it wasn't on Johnson's terms.

Nobody comes out of it with any credit. The Tories do what the Tories do, none of this should have been a surprise.

[One Day Soon]

That’s my point. They need to reinvent themselves as one. Or they are gone.

What’s the phrase? Evolve or Die.

It’s up to them.

J


No, they need to reinvent thmselves as a party that is relevant in the modern context. You don't need to be pro-independence to do that. And it would seem a lot simpler to just up sticks to the SNP if that was all you cared about.

[One Day Soon]

The union was on the ballot paper yesterday, according to the tory leader in Scotland.

80% of the seats won by the SNP.

We're on different paths.


I never realised Jackson Carlaw was so powerful. The response of most Scots would be to ask who he is, if they heard his message in the first place at all.

I suspect the result had a lot more to do with Scottish voters taking a look at Johnson who deserved to lose and Corbyn who didn't deserve to win and concluding 'I'll park my vote with Sturgeon thanks'.

[Cataplana]

[QUOTE=Cataplana;6014975]
Did they? A very vocal group did, but most of them?

What did you do to persuade otherwise?

I gave up on them years ago. If they are not prepared to get off their knees and organise it's their problem.

[Northernhibee]

[QUOTE=Northernhibee;6014977]

I gave up on them years ago. If they are not prepared to get off their knees and organise it's their problem.

As last night proved, it's all of our problem.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=Sir David Gray;6014857]This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

[The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion/QUOTE]

I see there's a good dose of clutching at straws and a second course of soor plums from unionists on here today.

The bit in bold is laughable. So by that token Boris should be extremely worried about polling less than 50% of votes in the UK yesterday and even more worried than Nicola Sturgeon as the Tory % of the UK vote was less than the SNP % of the Scottish vote.

You need to try a bit harder than that:faf:

The result last night was phenomenal for the SNP; a higher number of seats and % vote than any opinion poll conducted during the campaign.

The tories in Scotland went into overdrive over the campaign standing on a ticket of stopping Nicola and indyref2. They failed spectacularly and ended up losing more than half their seats. When you compare how well the tories have done in the UK and how badly they have done in Scotland, the performance gap is enormous.

Whether the SNP's landslide was 40%, 45% or 50% is irrelevant. The mandate for indyref2 is cast iron. That's all that matters today.

A 2nd referendum on independence will take it's own course, with a 49.3% starting point for Yes this time (latest opinion poll which also underestimated the SNPs winning margin yesterday), rather than a 28% starting point in 2014.


I don't think it is, but it may be after the next SP elections.

On the Johnson/Sturgeon or Tory/SNP percentage vote point, the key difference is presumably that Johnson isn't looking to conduct a referendum requiring a 50% plus majority so his percentage of the vote really only matters in so far as it gets him a governing majority.

Stepping back from all that, it was a phenomenal result for the SNP. It speaks to their current dominance of Scottish politics and also to the abject lack of both leadership and message from the other Scottish parties.

[Cataplana]

[QUOTE=Cataplana;6015027]

As last night proved, it's all of our problem.

I hear you. But for Scotland, the solution to the problem is clear.

We are past the point of no return.

[One Day Soon]

Wish people would stop blaming the Tories. They did everything you would expect of them and they won. The blame as always lies with the losing team, especially in this case where they deliberately sabotaged themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Completely agree. Last night's results are dangerous water to get into because they are so shaped and poisoned by the sabotage you refer to.

[Northernhibee]

[QUOTE=Northernhibee;6015028]

I hear you. But for Scotland, the solution to the problem is clear.

We are past the point of no return.

There are plenty of the Tory types in Scotland, they will still exist and will galvanise if we vote for Indy. They aren’t going away.

[One Day Soon]

It’s not a founding principle of S Lab to support Unioinism. Keir Hardie and Cunningham Graham were ardent home rulers, when that meant something like the Irish Free State became.


Independence is not Labour policy and it isn't going to be. That's what the SNP is for. You're not seriously arguing that the Home Rule of Keir Hardie was a call for independence?

[Ozyhibby]

Independence is not Labour policy and it isn't going to be. That's what the SNP is for. You're not seriously arguing that the Home Rule of Keir Hardie was a call for independence?

Absolutely but it’s not inconceivable that they may move to a full federalist position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

I never realised Jackson Carlaw was so powerful. The response of most Scots would be to ask who he is, if they heard his message in the first place at all.

I suspect the result had a lot more to do with Scottish voters taking a look at Johnson who deserved to lose and Corbyn who didn't deserve to win and concluding 'I'll park my vote with Sturgeon thanks'.

That's probably mostly true but they did so knowing full well she was campaigning on an anti Brexit pro Indy Ref card.

[lapsedhibee]

while I generally find Sturgeon an impressive politician I thought her very public celebrations at Swinson losing her seat were undignified and ill becoming of a party leader.

She should have immediately confiscated the camera filming it, like what a true statesman would have done.:agree:

[Andy Bee]

She should have immediately confiscated the camera filming it, like what a true statesman would have done.:agree:

Either that or curtailed her celebrations until a suitable fridge could be found :agree:

[One Day Soon]

Absolutely but it’s not inconceivable that they may move to a full federalist position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Certainly, the logical settlement of choice all along I would suggest for any sensible pro-UK person.

[One Day Soon]

That's probably mostly true but they did so knowing full well she was campaigning on an anti Brexit pro Indy Ref card.

Perhaps, not so sure though. We will certainly find out at the next SP elections.

[Glory Lurker]

[QUOTE=The Harp Awakes;6014962]

On the Johnson/Sturgeon or Tory/SNP percentage vote point, the key difference is presumably that Johnson isn't looking to conduct a referendum requiring a 50% plus majority so his percentage of the vote really only matters in so far as it gets him a governing majority.



It might surprise you that I don't agree :-)! Ref 2 is just like anything else - a policy. FPTP wholly supports the SNP's position as does precedent:

EEC in 1975, devo Sco and Wales 1979, devo Sco and Wales 1997, AV in 2011 and - hell - EU ref in 2016, every one of them introduced by a party with less than 50% of the popular vote. I don't know about Wales 79, but other than Sco 79, every one of them allowed a single vote winning margin.

[Hibrandenburg]

Perhaps, not so sure though. We will certainly find out at the next SP elections.

So they took a look at Johnson and Corbyn but not at Sturgeon:faf:

[JeMeSouviens]

Independence is not Labour policy and it isn't going to be. That's what the SNP is for. You're not seriously arguing that the Home Rule of Keir Hardie was a call for independence?

No, I’m saying the home rule of KH was much stronger than the home rule Lab reluctantly conceded in the smith commission.

Their founding principle was a much more autonomous Scotland than they support now.

[The Harp Awakes]

[QUOTE=The Harp Awakes;6014962]


I don't think it is, but it may be after the next SP elections.

On the Johnson/Sturgeon or Tory/SNP percentage vote point, the key difference is presumably that Johnson isn't looking to conduct a referendum requiring a 50% plus majority so his percentage of the vote really only matters in so far as it gets him a governing majority.

Stepping back from all that, it was a phenomenal result for the SNP. It speaks to their current dominance of Scottish politics and also to the abject lack of both leadership and message from the other Scottish parties.

Thank you for your well balanced post.

Just on your 1st point, I hink that's the 4th election the SNP have stood on on an indyref2 platform and have won every time. I'm not sure how many more elections they need to win to have a mandate?

[CloudSquall]

I think Labour missed an opportunity by not working on proposals and strategies for implementing a type of Devo Max / Home Rule a few years back.

Instead they tried and failed horrendously in being the full fat Unionist party which was never going to be a battle they would win.

[weecounty hibby]

There are a whole heap of straws being clutched at on this thread by some. A quick poll of the ten or so folk that I spent the day with at work today saw a100% in favour of independence. This was from a group where 7 of the 10 had voted no last time. There was a mix of labour and lib Dems in there as well. They all said that the only way for Scotland to move forward was to be independent. A small number but pretty overwhelmingly Indy from a very low base

[Smartie]

There are a whole heap of straws being clutched at on this thread by some. A quick poll of the ten or so folk that I spent the day with at work today saw a100% in favour of independence. This was from a group where 7 of the 10 had voted no last time. There was a mix of labour and lib Dems in there as well. They all said that the only way for Scotland to move forward was to be independent. A small number but pretty overwhelmingly Indy from a very low base

I would be careful reading too much into this.

The day after the EU referendum I was with my other half's dad who is a devout LibDem and Unionist. He was hurting and on that day would have voted for independence. Given a bit of time to cool down he was back to voting LibDem and expecting something other than Boris Johnson to win a landslide majority.

If we had a referendum today, I'm sure the result would be different to when we actually have one.

Not saying there isn't going to be a swing but there are massive emotional hurdles to be overcome before people actually turn up and put a cross in the box next to yes.

[weecounty hibby]

I would be careful reading too much into this.

The day after the EU referendum I was with my other half's dad who is a devout LibDem and Unionist. He was hurting and on that day would have voted for independence. Given a bit of time to cool down he was back to voting LibDem and expecting something other than Boris Johnson to win a landslide majority.

If we had a referendum today, I'm sure the result would be different to when we actually have one.

Not saying there isn't going to be a swing but there are massive emotional hurdles to be overcome before people actually turn up and put a cross in the box next to yes.
Yeah, I get that but one of them is an Irish woman I have worked with for 30years and is a friend as well. She was very much against Indy in the referendum and is a big lib dem supporter. I trust her and she is as straight down the middle as they come. Her words to me this morning were that she felt physically sick about the Tories and was now 100% for independence. I think there will be a lot of folks like that and I do believe that the Indy movement will keep most of them

[Glory Lurker]

There are a whole heap of straws being clutched at on this thread by some. A quick poll of the ten or so folk that I spent the day with at work today saw a100% in favour of independence. This was from a group where 7 of the 10 had voted no last time. There was a mix of labour and lib Dems in there as well. They all said that the only way for Scotland to move forward was to be independent. A small number but pretty overwhelmingly Indy from a very low base

It would be an unusual step, but perhaps the franchise in indyref 2 should be restricted to the people you mention, only in the interests of speed of the count of course.

[Cataplana]

Yeah, I get that but one of them is an Irish woman I have worked with for 30years and is a friend as well. She was very much against Indy in the referendum and is a big lib dem supporter. I trust her and she is as straight down the middle as they come. Her words to me this morning were that she felt physically sick about the Tories and was now 100% for independence. I think there will be a lot of folks like that and I do believe that the Indy movement will keep most of them

If only the referendum was today

[weecounty hibby]

It would be an unusual step, but perhaps the franchise in indyref 2 should be restricted to the people you mention, only in the interests of speed of the count of course.
Perhaps. It's not that unusual really I mean if we can have an EU referendum without EU citizens getting to vote, who knows what is possible

[Jones28]

Classic ****ing BBC, shows NS celebrating her party winning a very very tight seat, describes it as her celebrating Swinson’s defeat without even mentioning the name of the SNP candidate.

[marinello59]

Classic ****ing BBC, shows NS celebrating her party winning a very very tight seat, describes it as her celebrating Swinson’s defeat without even mentioning the name of the SNP candidate.

Sky have been running that since last night. I don’t normally buy in to the media bias stuff but that is really poor.
On the other hand it’s quite funny seeing her go mental. :greengrin

[G B Young]

Good speech by Johnson I thought. Struck the right tone.

I'm interested to see what sort of PM he will be now that he's cleared the debris that was paralysing parliament.

[greenlex]

Classic ****ing BBC, shows NS celebrating her party winning a very very tight seat, describes it as her celebrating Swinson’s defeat without even mentioning the name of the SNP candidate.

Who herself is a hard working young woman.

[lapsedhibee]

Good speech by Johnson I thought. Struck the right tone.

I'm interested to see what sort of PM he will be now that he's cleared the debris that was paralysing parliament.

He'll shirley be the kind of PM that Cummings tells him to be.

[G B Young]

I really can't stand Nicola Sturgeon and I thought her reaction last night was most undiplomatic but to her credit, she did talk about how she was willing to compromise and look at a customs union arrangement Brexit for a while.

If only Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn could have done the same and joined forces seeing the real danger in this election. If only Jo Swinson and Nicola Sturgeon could have held strong and not accepted the offer of a general election until we knew it wasn't on Johnson's terms.

Nobody comes out of it with any credit. The Tories do what the Tories do, none of this should have been a surprise.

As I've said before I actually think she's a very strong and capable politician and I even admire what she's achieved but on a personal level I find her exceptionally hard to warm to.

[G B Young]

He'll shirley be the kind of PM that Cummings tells him to be.

He'd do well to heed his advice bearing in mind what he's achieved under his guidance, but will Cummings be in this for the long term now that Brexit is finally going to be delivered? He strikes me as a real maverick.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The evening after the night before. I'm so deflated by a Tory majority of eighty; I really didn't think it would be that many. Very worried about the future of the country.

I honestly think I must now hitch my wagon fully to independence; there are irreconcilable differences between Scotland and England, not least over Brexit. It's seems unimaginable that this loveless marriage can last much longer. I have no stomach for five years of a hard right neoliberal Tory government, purged of its pro-Europeans and taken over by the likes of Patel, Rees-Mogg, Gove and Javid. The game is up; I'm a definite Yes in indy ref 2.

[weecounty hibby]

He'd do well to heed his advice bearing in mind what he's achieved under his guidance, but will Cummings be in this for the long term now that Brexit is finally going to be delivered? He strikes me as a real maverick.
Yip, isn't it marvellous that the UK has rid itself of those unelected European beaurocrats by following the order of an unelected beaurocrat. Now he has got what he wants there what else will he go after

[Hibrandenburg]

Classic ****ing BBC, shows NS celebrating her party winning a very very tight seat, describes it as her celebrating Swinson’s defeat without even mentioning the name of the SNP candidate.

Most of the media are running with this. Corbyn and Swinson have been destroyed, now it's time to turn their efforts on Sturgeon.

[marinello59]

He'll shirley be the kind of PM that Cummings tells him to be.

Pretty much.

[lapsedhibee]

He'd do well to heed his advice bearing in mind what he's achieved under his guidance, but will Cummings be in this for the long term now that Brexit is finally going to be delivered? He strikes me as a real maverick.

More likely that, just as Brexit was an opportunity for Johnson to become Parliament King even though he didn't particularly believe in it, Brexit has been an opportunity for Cummings to get his hands on the levers of power (his hand up Johnson's back) to realise his real ambition - which might be to wreck civil society. P48 of his manifesto is ominous.

[cabbageandribs1875]

meanwhile, Tommy Robinson has joined the conservative party...they're well suited




protesters in london just now https://www.facebook.com/groups/1081934212006008/wp/2461559660759345/?av=100000407240284




Labour for independence group :wink: they know it makes sense, hope their group grows

22797

[Pretty Boy]

meanwhile, Tommy Robinson has joined the conservative party...they're well suited

No shock.

Katie Hopkins telling Sayeeda Warsi that it's 'our party now' and 'nationalism is back, putting our people first' sums up what their appeal is to a lot of people currently.

[Hibernia&Alba]

meanwhile, Tommy Robinson has joined the conservative party...they're well suited




protesters in london just now https://www.facebook.com/groups/1081934212006008/wp/2461559660759345/?av=100000407240284




Labour for independence group :wink: they know it makes sense, hope their group grows

22797

I wonder whether they will expel him? Hardly a good image for a self-defined one nation Conservative Party.

[cabbageandribs1875]

No shock.

Katie Hopkins telling Sayeeda Warsi that it's 'our party now' and 'nationalism is back, putting our people first' sums up what their appeal is to a lot of people currently.


speaking of....


https://morningstaronline.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/PA-44039316.jpg?itok=dLP7brSS&c=63402a10ddf0bbcc9f69b22cdc3efba7


at his trial



https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5065186/general-election-2019-glasgow-protest-boris-johnson-tories/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb (https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5065186/general-election-2019-glasgow-protest-boris-johnson-tories/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb)

big turnout of protestors in Glasgow earlier

[GlesgaeHibby]

Saw a BBC clip of interviews in Edinburgh. A retired lady commented that she was pleased as she had always done well out of Tory governments. Sums up tories and Tory voters. Looking out for nobody but themselves

[Pretty Boy]

Saw a BBC clip of interviews in Edinburgh. A retired lady commented that she was pleased as she had always done well out of Tory governments. Sums up tories and Tory voters. Looking out for nobody but themselves

It's almost funny watching Labour and Tory supporters go all out with the cliche bingo. A proper reverting to type.

The 'I'm alright Jack' Tories, the barely concealed xenophobia, the 'if you just worked harder' types, the 'this is still the greatest country in the world' sabre rattlimg and the desperate attempts to portray their party as having some kind of social conscience.

Then you have Owen Jones and the Morning Star cheerleading for Momentum. 'It's Brexits fault', 'loads of people voted for us in London so we' ll just ignore how elections actually work in the UK', 'no one want's centrists' and even 'it's still Blairs fault'. It's the fault of everyone but Corbyn and his inner circle and their inability to deal with the landscape as it was presented to them. It's the grown up equivalent of a student shrieking 'you just don't understand.'

[Jonnyboy]

This election was about Brexit with a second Scottish independence referendum clearly in the mix as a sub-plot. The SNP were banging on for weeks about how a vote for them would be a way to try and force another referendum on independence and to then keep Scotland in the EU.

People knew that any other major party was against independence so voting for anyone other than the SNP would not make sense if your ultimate goal was both Scottish independence and remaining in the EU.

The fact they've polled less than half the number of votes cast across Scotland yesterday should be a cause for concern for anyone of an SNP persuasion in my opinion.

Apologies if anyone else has already picked up on this but I heard today that the Conservatives polled less than 50% of the vote in England/Wales. Cause for concern for Tory voters?

[RyeSloan]

Apologies if anyone else has already picked up on this but I heard today that the Conservatives polled less than 50% of the vote in England/Wales. Cause for concern for Tory voters?

Different stokes for different folks.

A FPTP election is what it is, the point here is comparing seats won v seats available to a binary vote on straight percentages simply doesn’t work.

Taking the Scotland example we have the SNP with 45% of the vote taking 80% of the seats.

Some will suggest that 80% is a mandate for Indy. Others will highlight that with less than 50% of the vote it’s anything but.

What can’t be argued is that in the chamber that was up for election and with the rules in play the Tories secured a resounding victory and therefore have legitimate reason to control the powers that chamber has.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good speech by Johnson I thought. Struck the right tone.

I'm interested to see what sort of PM he will be now that he's cleared the debris that was paralysing parliament.

Are you being gen with this post?

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's almost funny watching Labour and Tory supporters go all out with the cliche bingo. A proper reverting to type.

The 'I'm alright Jack' Tories, the barely concealed xenophobia, the 'if you just worked harder' types, the 'this is still the greatest country in the world' sabre rattlimg and the desperate attempts to portray their party as having some kind of social conscience.

Then you have Owen Jones and the Morning Star cheerleading for Momentum. 'It's Brexits fault', 'loads of people voted for us in London so we' ll just ignore how elections actually work in the UK', 'no one want's centrists' and even 'it's still Blairs fault'. It's the fault of everyone but Corbyn and his inner circle and their inability to deal with the landscape as it was presented to them. It's the grown up equivalent of a student shrieking 'you just don't understand.'

Labour has to undertake a serious review of its vision and message. It just watched a good piece on Newsnight with Paul Mason and a politics professor, discussing exactly this issue. The professor said that he thinks Labour is now a coalition of three groups: 1, cosmopolitan, highly educated social liberals; 2, the traditional working class base in former industrial towns who are more socially conservative and worried by immigration; 3, students and ethnic minorities. His view is that Labour is having a huge problem trying to reconcile these diverse groups. Many of Labour's manifesto policies were popular, but many traditional Labour voters supported Brexit and felt the party was ignoring them. Then there is the Corbyn factor: a lot of former labour voters didn't like/trust him and felt he was non-committal on Brexit.

Mason argued that the party needs a leader who is committed to the good manifesto policies but who has a clear Brexit message and is a more heavyweight politician. He/she needs to sell the progressive agenda whilst taking seriously the worries ofmore socially conservative Labour voters have on issues like immigration; they are not to be dismissed as racists or idiots.

It's a big re-building job, with a party which includes different interest groups with different values.

[bigwheel]

Labour has to undertake a serious review of its vision and message. It just watched a good piece on Newsnight with Paul Mason and a politics professor, discussing exactly this issue. The professor said that he thinks Labour is now a coalition of three groups: 1, cosmopolitan, highly educated social liberals; 2, the traditional working class base in former industrial towns who are more socially conservative and worried by immigration; 3, students and ethnic minorities. His view is that Labour is having a huge problem trying to reconcile these diverse groups. Many of Labour's manifesto policies were popular, but many traditional Labour voters supported Brexit and felt the party was ignoring them. Then there is the Corbyn factor: a lot of former labour voters didn't like/trust him and felt he was non-committal on Brexit.

Mason argued that the party needs a leader who is committed to the good manifesto policies but who has a clear Brexit message and is a more heavyweight politician. He/she needs to sell the progressive agenda whilst taking seriously the worries ofmore socially conservative Labour voters have on issues like immigration; they are not to be dismissed as racists or idiots.

It's a big re-building job, with a party which includes different interest groups with different values.

Interesting points...they seem so far away from credible that it seems like a generation will go by before they can be serious competition again ...

Some sort of opposition alliance feels needed for next election....

[lapsedhibee]

Labour has to undertake a serious review of its vision and message. It just watched a good piece on Newsnight with Paul Mason and a politics professor, discussing exactly this issue. The professor said that he thinks Labour is now a coalition of three groups: 1, cosmopolitan, highly educated social liberals; 2, the traditional working class base in former industrial towns who are more socially conservative and worried by immigration; 3, students and ethnic minorities. His view is that Labour is having a huge problem trying to reconcile these diverse groups. Many of Labour's manifesto policies were popular, but many traditional Labour voters supported Brexit and felt the party was ignoring them. Then there is the Corbyn factor: a lot of former labour voters didn't like/trust him and felt he was non-committal on Brexit.

Mason argued that the party needs a leader who is committed to the good manifesto policies but who has a clear Brexit message and is a more heavyweight politician. He/she needs to sell the progressive agenda whilst taking seriously the worries ofmore socially conservative Labour voters have on issues like immigration; they are not to be dismissed as racists or idiots.

It's a big re-building job, with a party which includes different interest groups with different values.

What's the point of having a clear Brexit message now? :dunno:

[Colr]

No shock.

Katie Hopkins telling Sayeeda Warsi that it's 'our party now' and 'nationalism is back, putting our people first' sums up what their appeal is to a lot of people currently.

Thing is, with this scale of majority, Johnson does not need to be pushed around by little ****s like Gino Francois and Rees Mogg so it isn’t their party now.

[Colr]

Dennis Skinner gone, eh?

Wow!!!

This looks like one of those turning points like Thatcher and Blair.

Labour has it chance with this Tory party and muffed it.

[allmodcons]

Good speech by Johnson I thought. Struck the right tone.

I'm interested to see what sort of PM he will be now that he's cleared the debris that was paralysing parliament.


Sorry but when did he "strike the right tone"?

He's full of bull**** and soundbites and anybody who can't see that is a poor judge of character."One nation conservatism", just what the **** does that mean?

He's a self serving, narcissistic, waste of skin and I am utterly bemused as to why the UK public would want this excuse for a human being in No. 10.

He's claiming he'll get "Brexit Done" but hasn't a clue as to what that entails and how difficult it's going to be post 31st January to clear the debris (lol) and as for Tory claims that they are "the party of the working man" I really just don't know where to start.

This is someone brought to power on the back of demands by racists and bigots for a return to the days of England for Englishman. Remove Brexit and put him up against any half decent moderate Labour Party and he'd be completely ****ed.

He's in power by default and for you not to see how damaging this man is, bewilders me.

I'm not a religious man but genuinely don't know what to do other than pray for the weak and the needy in our society with this self serving, narcissistic, waste of skin heading up our country.

How we've got to a situation with this cock on one side of the Atlantic and Trump on the other is nothing short of incredible. I genuinely fear for my children and what the future holds for them.

[wpj]

Sorry but when did he "strike the right tone"?

He's full of bull**** and soundbites and anybody who can't see that is a poor judge of character."One nation conservatism", just what the **** does that mean?

He's a self serving, narcissistic, waste of skin and I am utterly bemused as to why the UK public would want this excuse for a human being in No. 10.

He's claiming he'll get "Brexit Done" but hasn't a clue as to what that entails and how difficult it's going to be post 31st January to clear the debris (lol) and as for Tory claims that they are "the party of the working man" I really just don't know where to start.

This is someone brought to power on the back of demands by racists and bigots for a return to the days of England for Englishman. Remove Brexit and put him up against any half decent moderate Labour Party and he'd be completely ****ed.

He's in power by default and for you not to see how damaging this man is, bewilders me.

I'm not a religious man but genuinely don't know what to do other than pray for the weak and the needy in our society with this self serving, narcissistic, waste of skin heading up our country.

How we've got to a situation with this cock on one side of the Atlantic and Trump on the other is nothing short of incredible. I genuinely fear for my children and what the future holds for them.

I wholeheartedly agree, throw in Putin as well, we are in for a rough few years at the very least!

[Callum_62]

Anyone else getting the below ad on this thread?

Kinda apt I feel

Also seen another one about 'fake impeachment proceedings have started'

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191214/141b5d38085d10125cc83849af543cff.jpg

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done all the SNP/Labour/Lib dem voters in scotland that voted to reject boris ******* johnson's tories, anyone in scotland that voted FOR boris ******* johnson's tories....shame on you :agree:

[makaveli1875]

well done all the SNP/Labour/Lib dem voters in scotland that voted to reject boris ******* johnson's tories, anyone in scotland that voted FOR boris ******* johnson's tories....shame on you :agree:

Why exactly should they be shamed ?

[murray26]

Why exactly should they be shamed ?

Voting for a party that causes so much harm to vulnerable people while protecting extremely well off people .. **** party for **** people imo.

[grunt]

He's full of bull**** and soundbites and anybody who can't see that is a poor judge of character."One nation conservatism", just what the **** does that mean? While I agree with you on your views on Johnson, the concept of one nation conservatism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-nation_conservatism) is not a new one, and it is something that indeed the party was prominent in promoting in recent years.

The problem is not the political philosophy, which I think is fine. It's that Johnson is lying when he says that he is now a one nation Tory. He's not, if indeed he ever was. Under Johnson, and I suspect with Cummings navigating, the party has moved a way to the right. Which is now our problem.

[Hibernia&Alba]

What's the point of having a clear Brexit message now? :dunno:

I know, but Labour will have a decision to make about its future position on the EU. The Lib Dems will be firmly campaigning to re-join; Labour again faces the prospect of alienating a sizeable proportion of their support, whichever way they go. It's a big problem for them.

[Hibernia&Alba]

While I agree with you on your views on Johnson, the concept of one nation conservatism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-nation_conservatism) is not a new one, and it is something that indeed the party was prominent in promoting in recent years.

The problem is not the political philosophy, which I think is fine. It's that Johnson is lying when he says that he is now a one nation Tory. He's not, if indeed he ever was. Under Johnson, and I suspect with Cummings navigating, the party has moved a way to the right. Which is now our problem.

:agree:

The one nation Conservatives, such as Ken Clark, Nicholas Soames and Heidi Allen were kicked out, leaving only ideological Thatcherites and Brexiteers.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i remember watching TV when the results were coming in with alex cole hamilton stating that swinson should be admired for not asking for a recount, well >>>>>>>>>

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79749580_10218331336506196_8001512390136954880_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQn9zj2BuK_u2R0-XS0-pgW_1ZuVroBn0QkNFVX0AXCUEhz8SKAYJjrvsEKK0eKU73E&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=7f88634200ae7670616a5ce245fe9e2a&oe=5E86BD73

[cabbageandribs1875]

didn't realise John McDonnell standing down as well

i wonder who Len McCluskey and Momentum will replace him and Corbyn with

[ronaldo7]

i remember watching TV when the results were coming in with alex cole hamilton stating that swinson should be admired for not asking for a recount, well >>>>>>>>>

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79749580_10218331336506196_8001512390136954880_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQn9zj2BuK_u2R0-XS0-pgW_1ZuVroBn0QkNFVX0AXCUEhz8SKAYJjrvsEKK0eKU73E&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=7f88634200ae7670616a5ce245fe9e2a&oe=5E86BD73

The returning officer was obviously a misogynist. 😂

[CloudSquall]

The returning officer was obviously a misogynist. 😂

Yep, clearly has a problem with women in politics :agree::greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

With all due respect, it is people like you that hold Scotland back.

The "United Kingdom" (i.e England) has just voted for a effing Boris Johnson landslide victory with Hard Brexit on its way, which means we will almost certainly be governed by the tories for 14-15 years (2010-2024/25), if not an additional 4-5 years (2010-2029/30) beyond that due to the scale of the deficit that Labour have to make up. All with historic trends that clearly indicated in the vast, vast majority of years from Thatcher's first win in 1979 until the present day... we are always governed by right wing governments we in Scotland did not vote for.

This three & a half years after Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the European Union.

All while the SNP have won the 2015 UK election in Scotland by a landslide, the 2016 Holyrood election with a +9 pro-indy majority in the parliament, the 2017 UK election in Scotland, and now another landslide in the 2019 UK election in Scotland. All with manifestos specifying the right to have a future #indyref2 in the event of evident 'material change'.

What on earth would it take for Unionists like you to wake up to the reality we need to join 180+ sovereign, independent nations in the world & take control (for better and for worse) of our own affairs.

Surrender, but there's no surrender.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Won the argument?[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Northernhibee]

Labour eating themselves from within. It'll be decades before they have a chance at power again, if at all if Scotland does become independent.

You can't reason someone out of a position that they've not been reasoned into and you'd have to imagine that the Cummings bull**** will keep the Tories in the north of England for a long, long time.

[Moulin Yarns]

And so it begins. This from a gynaecologist on twitter.


Okay turkeys, your Christmas vote is here!
Damian Green, Tory MP, on @lbc. “We all need to start paying towards an insurance type system to pay for our care.”

We healthcare types, who kept banging on, would rather not be right on this. We tried repeatedly to warn you.
#RIPNHS😢

[Jones28]

And so it begins. This from a gynaecologist on twitter.


Okay turkeys, your Christmas vote is here!
Damian Green, Tory MP, on @lbc. “We all need to start paying towards an insurance type system to pay for our care.”

We healthcare types, who kept banging on, would rather not be right on this. We tried repeatedly to warn you.
#RIPNHS😢

With the NHS being in the hands of the Scottish government will it be protected against any such trade deals with the US/a switch to further privatised care?

[cabbageandribs1875]

The returning officer was obviously a misogynist. 😂


i'm waiting on someone saying the RO is probably Fife Hibee :hmmm:





P.S. if you're perusing this FH....slainte, hope yi enjoyed friday morning:cheers:

[Ozyhibby]

With the NHS being in the hands of the Scottish government will it be protected against any such trade deals with the US/a switch to further privatised care?

No, the UK govt still retains control over trade and will grant full market access if needed. The UK govt retains the right to shut Holyrood if it likes. It has already been to court to make sure powers coming back from Brussels that were supposed to go to Holyrood were instead taken to Westminster. Holyrood only operates with the consent of Westminster which is why the SNP are not considering any unsanctioned referendums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

No, the UK govt still retains control over trade and will grant full market access if needed. The UK govt retains the right to shut Holyrood if it likes. It has already been to court to make sure powers coming back from Brussels that were supposed to go to Holyrood were instead taken to Westminster. Holyrood only operates with the consent of Westminster which is why the SNP are not considering any unsanctioned referendums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Keep your eyes open for the Sunday papers tomorrow. There is a rumour that one will have a front page headline that the current prime minister will move to repeal the Scotland Act.

[cabbageandribs1875]

With the NHS being in the hands of the Scottish government will it be protected against any such trade deals with the US/a switch to further privatised care?


i'm not quite sure if it is protected


https://twitter.com/thesnp/status/1197221490225295361?lang=en


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ1il5jXsAAAqq_.jpg


:dunno:

[stoneyburn hibs]

i'm waiting on someone saying the RO is probably Fife Hibee :hmmm:





P.S. if you're perusing this FH....slainte, hope yi enjoyed friday morning:cheers:

Reported:

Possible misogynist liker.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Keep your eyes open for the Sunday papers tomorrow. There is a rumour that one will have a front page headline that the current prime minister will move to repeal the Scotland Act.

Please be true.

[cabbageandribs1875]

former UKIP_Scotland leader and MEP David Coburn has now joined the conservatives, says he wants to help boris johnson "save the union" in any indyref2