General election 2019

[Mon Dieu4]

Not sure I'm liking this format on Question Time tonight, I want to see the leaders be able to counter each other and take them to task

[marinello59]

Not sure I'm liking this format on Question Time tonight, I want to see the leaders be able to counter each other and take them to task

If they all get as tough a time as Corbyn is getting then it might be worthwhile. He is struggling a bit.

[Mon Dieu4]

If they all get as tough a time as Corbyn is getting then it might be worthwhile. He is struggling a bit.

I actually think he's doing ok, with his type of policies you either buy into them or not, don't think folk could be persuaded into them

[marinello59]

I actually think he's doing ok, with his type of policies you either buy into them or not, don't think folk could be persuaded into them

For me he lost his cool a couple of times. He just didn’t look that comfortable.

[wpj]

For me he lost his cool a couple of times. He just didn’t look that comfortable.

He has clearly been coached, thanking people for the questions and taking wee breaks to answer things. Not a criticism at all, just an observation. It's PR world now. I thought he did ok given some of the questions. NS holding her own so far.

[Mon Dieu4]

Sturgeon did well, she's by far the most human and competent of the leaders imo

[Ozyhibby]

Already you feel like Swinson’s first answer is scripted. Sturgeon very natural and you could feel crowd warm to her. Corbyn done pretty well as well although he is much less natural.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

nicola sturgeon is an absolute star = Fact, and what a difference with an audience asking questions without showing gnarling teeth, the more nicola is heard down south then the more those in england will start questioning the westminster line that we are a country of leeches, the english can only go on what they are fed by the media down south.


missed corbyn, i'l live though, oh god here's the arms flying all over the place, wished i'd missed her instead of corbyn, at least wee jeremy is funny


saw this on fb, https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/22/man-80000-salary-refuses-believe-top-5-earners-11200959/?ito=social&fbclid=IwAR0DAW83oud0pMyxg7B6lAgxwPvyM7f6lWGV0CtLe 50M3eN8pxZ9axaMITE the guy earns 80k and he's whinging incase he has to pay an extra couple of £ income tax a week ffs, selfish tw@t


jo swinson wants to remain in europe so we don't have as much austerity, meanwhile she's more than willing to go into coalition with the full fat tories, where of course she will be forced to vote for austerity...again

[bawheid]

Swinson is struggling big time. Wonder if she could lose her seat...

[Ozyhibby]

Swinson is struggling big time. Wonder if she could lose her seat...

If the Lib Dem’s keep tanking then it’s possible. Best chance of a hung parliament is for the libs to collapse though.


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[weecounty hibby]

Missed Corbyn and only saw last 10 mins of Sturgeon. Have had the misfortune to watch the car crash that is Swinson. She is loosing votes left right and centre. Nicola was very impressive in the short time I saw her though. So glad she is Scottish FM and is there fighting for Scotland

[Pretty Boy]

The Lib Dems must long for the days of Paddy Ashdown or Charles Kennedy. Kennedy in particular was a great speaker on his day. As a strong opponent of the disastrous coalition and a supporter of home rule for Scotland he could have picked up votes across the board this time around as well.

[cabbageandribs1875]

lol jo swinson wants a ban on fracking....but she's fine with accepting 14k in donations from some geezer in the fracking game, thats like rees-mogg being anti-abortion..but rakes in plenty from shares in abortion pills mostly used in illegal abortions in indonesia...lol

[Ozyhibby]

Swinson has been set up though because there are no Lib Dem’s in the audience at all. Sturgeon was lucky because there were no Scottish unionists in the audience and plenty snp supporters. Not like the bbc at all.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

kin boooooooooooo johnson you maggot


hope someone asks him why the public should respect(some) MP's,when ersewipe rees mogg totally disrespected parliament by lying along the front bench

[Mon Dieu4]

You can see this is just a game to him, one big pantomime and he's the star

[lapsedhibee]

kin boooooooooooo johnson you maggot

Lie, waffle, deflect, repeat ad infinitum.

[CloudSquall]

Swinson is struggling big time. Wonder if she could lose her seat...

Quite a turnaround from a few weeks ago, Lib Dems thought the best tactic was to go balls to the walls with "Jo Swinson for PM" , now it's best to keep her out of the limelight if they want to maintain their 15% in the polls..

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lie, waffle, deflect, repeat ad infinitum.


but but but

[bawheid]

If this goon ends up back in Downing Street the Union is done. There’s only so long you can go on with this pish.

[JimBHibees]

If this goon ends up back in Downing Street the Union is done. There’s only so long you can go on with this pish.

Absolutely torture to watch. No wonder he doesn't want to debate.

[wpj]

Boris is getting ripped apart! What a disaster of a bumbling fool. A horrible person, trying to defend his racism now, pathetic.

[bawheid]

It’s like Momentum has hand picked the audience! Brilliant viewing!

[Mon Dieu4]

Boris is getting ripped apart! What a disaster of a bumbling fool. A horrible person, trying to defend his racism now, pathetic.

Sad thing is it won't make a difference, people will still vote for him

[Jack Hackett]

Taking an absolute pounding. Blustering buffoon!

[JimBHibees]

Sad thing is it won't make a difference, people will still vote for him

Depressingly so. It will be spun the audience were hand picked to be negative towards our great leader. Absolute shambles.

[xyz23jc]

Boris is getting ripped apart! What a disaster of a bumbling fool. A horrible person, trying to defend his racism now, pathetic.


Shoe-in! A player, playing the masses! VOTE SNP! END OF! FACT! :greengrin:agree:

[CloudSquall]

Scottish NHS doesn't sound that bad after this :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

Get Brexit done. **** off!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Scottish NHS doesn't sound that bad after this :greengrin



don't let anyone tell you otherwise

[xyz23jc]

Scottish NHS doesn't sound that bad after this :greengrin

But but but but....best of a bad bunch, still failing to meet targets, 60 Billion Black Hole, Broad shoulders of UK, Sturgeon... Etc etc. FRO! :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

Brexit is 'oven ready'... roaster!

[Ozyhibby]

The importance of voting SNP shown brilliantly tonight. Do Wales and Northern Ireland even exist based on this debate?


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[wpj]

Sad thing is it won't make a difference, people will still vote for him

That is what really saddens me. I am in a labour safe seat and will be voting for them. It is a vote for the man not the party if I am honest. He is a good constitute MP and has a very good track record looking after people.

[ronaldo7]

Oor Nicola skooshed it again tonight. Corbyn started well but stuttered a bit towards the end. Swinsons voting record caught up with her, and Boris blustered his way through to no avail.

Thank goodness we have the SNP to vote for.

[Hibby70]

Sturgeon stood out an absolute mile on QT tonight. The rest of the "leaders" are no where near her ability to answer questions.

Swinson - oh dear, I actually felt embarrassed for her.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/drrosena/status/1197884965444366337?s=21

This is a very good wee video for a constituency candidate.


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[Mon Dieu4]

That is what really saddens me. I am in a labour safe seat and will be voting for them. It is a vote for the man not the party if I am honest. He is a good constitute MP and has a very good track record looking after people.

I can relate to that, I remember When Malcolm Chisholm came round to canvas during his last election, I liked the guy and he had helped out people I knew, the look on the his face when I told him I couldn't vote for him because Labour joined forces with the Tories during the independence referendum was a man defeated, I genuinely felt really sorry for him and he'd clearly been hearing it at many doors

[Hibrandenburg]

Corbyn gets a B grade. He knows his manifesto back to front and he actually looked reasonably smart. I get why people will vote for him.

Sturgeon gets an A. It would have been A+ but she failed to understand and therefore answer the "Once in a lifetime" question. Walks, talks and radiates confidence.

Swinson earned no more than a D. Didn't sound convincing at all and was ripped a new one by her female inquisitors, can't wait to hear the misogynist spin on that particular car crash. As I expected her voting history and past have come back to bite her on the bum.

Boris was a solid F. I think he might actually have had the wrong exam paper.

[CloudSquall]

Swinson earned no more than a D. Didn't sound convincing at all and was ripped a new one by her female inquisitors, can't wait to hear the misogynist spin on that particular car crash. .

I had a look through Twitter, it seems we just hate young women from John O'Groats to Lands End :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Sturgeon gets an A. It would have been A+ but she failed to understand and therefore answer the "Once in a lifetime" question.

That was odd. I wondered if she recognised the audience member as a troll and was trying hard not to engage with him.

[Cataplana]

Lie, waffle, deflect, repeat ad infinitum.

An utter Bawbag.

[SHODAN]

Hopefully now the LDs will start haemorrhaging votes to Labour and concentrate the Remain vote. Doubt it though.

[Cataplana]

Corbyn gets a B grade. He knows his manifesto back to front and he actually looked reasonably smart. I get why people will vote for him.

Sturgeon gets an A. It would have been A+ but she failed to understand and therefore answer the "Once in a lifetime" question. Walks, talks and radiates confidence.

Swinson earned no more than a D. Didn't sound convincing at all and was ripped a new one by her female inquisitors, can't wait to hear the misogynist spin on that particular car crash. As I expected her voting history and past have come back to bite her on the bum.

Boris was a solid F. I think he might actually have had the wrong exam paper.

I think Sturgeon knows why you should never argue with an idiot.

They will drag you down to their level and defeat you with their superior experience.

Most of the questions from English people were not worthy of an answer. They have been answered up here already, and they have no say on the outcome.

I'm dieing to leave as I am getting embarrassed by then giving us all this money.

[Moulin Yarns]

Verdict of 326 Politics followers on the leaders' performances on #bbcqt (scores out of 4):

Nicola Sturgeon: 2.86 (65% positive)
Jeremy Corbyn: 2.78 (60% positive)
Boris Johnson: 1.81 (24% positive)
Jo Swinson: 1.72 (22% positive)

[ronaldo7]

Looks like Swinson bombed then.

#pushthebutton

[Hibernia&Alba]

I thought it was a good programme, with the audience asking a number of tough questions. It wasn't the stage managed banality I thought it might have been. I thought Sturgeon and Corbyn perfomed well, Johnson was so-so and Swinson disastrous. I thought Fiona Bruce handled it well too; she didn't allow the politicians to waffle off topic.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought it was a good programme, with the audience asking a number of tough questions. It wasn't the stage managed banality I thought it might have been. I thought Sturgeon and Corbyn perfomed well, Johnson was so-so and Swinson disastrous. I thought Fiona Bruce handled it well too; she didn't allow the politicians to waffle off topic.

That pretty much sums it up. I liked the format.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75278353_3111139952235780_7231884392774238208_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=8sCbPkvnzVkAQmclTIHPSAhoSyUc6pLRNe_BAtX-QPvIyVXoaoaUrcL2g&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=911a04829aac867e2045df3c770b7700&oe=5E8A3C25
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/77421101_1006630333020931_6147524731013693440_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ohc=tWO7V7jrVCgAQnU6_K9EZci0qU4J38OtNwxfKYE9S7 SqndYHKy0mASqHQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=78c40b9c2bb16d576bd0645ed3e523c6&oe=5E4385FF

she's a Gem

[The Harp Awakes]

Sturgeon stood out an absolute mile on QT tonight. The rest of the "leaders" are no where near her ability to answer questions.

Swinson - oh dear, I actually felt embarrassed for her.

Sturgeon is unlike most politicians in that she is very direct in her answers. I think that resonates with people as could be seen in the positive reaction she received from the audience throughout. Quite remarkable when you think that 95%+ of the Sheffield audience wouldn't be in agreement with Scottish independence.

A very impressive lady who is very deserving of her 5th consecutive title of Scottish politician of the year.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75278353_3111139952235780_7231884392774238208_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=8sCbPkvnzVkAQmclTIHPSAhoSyUc6pLRNe_BAtX-QPvIyVXoaoaUrcL2g&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=911a04829aac867e2045df3c770b7700&oe=5E8A3C25
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/77421101_1006630333020931_6147524731013693440_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ohc=tWO7V7jrVCgAQnU6_K9EZci0qU4J38OtNwxfKYE9S7 SqndYHKy0mASqHQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=78c40b9c2bb16d576bd0645ed3e523c6&oe=5E4385FF

she's a Gem

In contrast have a read of the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg dismissive comments on Sturgeon's performance. Unbelievable.

[Hibernia&Alba]

In contrast have a read of the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg dismissive comments on Sturgeon's performance. Unbelievable.

She a Tory Jock, one hundred per cent.

[JimBHibees]

In contrast have a read of the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg dismissive comments on Sturgeon's performance. Unbelievable.

What did she say? Assume if she criticised Sturgeon she annihilated Johnson who was so far out of his depth it was embarrassing.

[JimBHibees]

She a Tory Jock, one hundred per cent.

Think family background is Labour exacutive.

[The Harp Awakes]

What did she say? Assume if she criticised Sturgeon she annihilated Johnson who was so far out of his depth it was embarrassing.

The only reference she made to Nicola Sturgeon in her summing up article was:

'Nicola Sturgeon also faced repeated questions on whether independence for Scotland was viable'

[JimBHibees]

The only reference she made to Nicola Sturgeon in her summing up article was:

'Nicola Sturgeon also faced repeated questions on whether independence for Scotland was viable'

That's poor.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Think family background is Labour exacutive.

Really? I'm surprised to hear that. She always comes across as very establishment. I know she attended private school (that doesn't necessarily make her a Conservative) and isn't she married to a City trader? Again that doesn't make her a Tory, but the tone of her reporting has always made me think she is centre-right. I might be wrong of course, but that's the feeling I've always had.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I thought Corbyn did ok to be fair ... not brilliant but he held his own without getting a real kicking.

Sturgeon was simply her normal assured self, she rarely sounds evasive and when she did avoid a question she admitted to the audience she just didn't want to answer it at that point for reasons I at least could understand. I thought she was missing the guy who asked about 'once in a generation' opening a door for her to give that crap a real kicking, but perhaps she saw a trap developing and that was why she didn't engage with him. Overall it was a very good performance.

Swinson ... Oh dear, pounded into the dirt and trampled on, simply a car crash.

Johnson ... Faffle, barf, waffle BREXIT ... refuse to take responsibility for actually being a Tory as if he only came into politics the day he became prime minister ... as somebody else said though it probably wont damage him coz no matter what he does or how much ***** he spouts it seems he gets away with it.

Winner? .... Nicola Sturgeon without a doubt.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-question-time-man-who-20935155?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&fbclid=IwAR1EZaM3GgDKkqsDZFNQ6ZO7GqA6s9S-Hz9I33Fhtd56XQB8xQj_UEJ1GFc

more about that gadgy from earlier that was on another QT...

The Question Time audience member who claimed he wasn't "in the top 50 per cent of British earners" while earning £80,000 can be revealed as an IT consultant and champion professional motorcycle racer.
Rob "Bullet" Barber, 36, of Bury, in Lancashire, runs race team PBR Racing alongside his dad Phil

22721 dunno if this is true, but if it is....


the dirty tricks get dirtier each election time, i've lost count of tories/labour candidates dropped from selection due to being unsavoury ****s, i just wish/hope the SNP starts playing dirty for a change for indy2, the unionists will be even dirtier the next time, it's now insulting when johnson/corbyn tell scots how much mega £££'s they want to spend in scotland...shame it's only at election times eh, the £££'s come from OUR resources anyway, they can gtf, they've robbed this country for just too long

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-question-time-man-who-20935155?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&fbclid=IwAR1EZaM3GgDKkqsDZFNQ6ZO7GqA6s9S-Hz9I33Fhtd56XQB8xQj_UEJ1GFc

more about that gadgy from earlier that was on another QT...

The Question Time audience member who claimed he wasn't "in the top 50 per cent of British earners" while earning £80,000 can be revealed as an IT consultant and champion professional motorcycle racer.
Rob "Bullet" Barber, 36, of Bury, in Lancashire, runs race team PBR Racing alongside his dad Phil

22721 dunno if this is true, but if it is....


the dirty tricks get dirtier each election time, i've lost count of tories/labour candidates dropped from selection due to being unsavoury ****s, i just wish/hope the SNP starts playing dirty for a change for indy2, the unionists will be even dirtier the next time, it's now insulting when johnson/corbyn tell scots how much mega £££'s they want to spend in scotland...shame it's only at election times eh, the £££'s come from OUR resources anyway, they can gtf, they've robbed this country for just too long






He earns above 80K per year yet claims he isn't in the top fifty per cent in income :faf:

[marinello59]

I thought it was a good programme, with the audience asking a number of tough questions. It wasn't the stage managed banality I thought it might have been. I thought Sturgeon and Corbyn perfomed well, Johnson was so-so and Swinson disastrous. I thought Fiona Bruce handled it well too; she didn't allow the politicians to waffle off topic.

It worked well with none of them getting an easy ride. Sturgeon was head and shoulders above the others. When I watched Corbyn open things I hadn’t thought he had done that well but compared to the remaining two he had a good night. Swinson’s dreams of doing a Clegg must surely be over. Johnson swung between mediocre and poor. It’s depressing that he still looks like remaining as PM.

[wpj]

It worked well with none of them getting an easy ride. Sturgeon was head and shoulders above the others. When I watched Corbyn open things I hadn’t thought he had done that well but compared to the remaining two he had a good night. Swinson’s dreams of doing a Clegg must surely be over. Johnson swung between mediocre and poor. It’s depressing that he still looks like remaining as PM.

I agree, I thought Swinson came across as quite angry tonight, previous lib leaders would have waltzed that questioning. I dont dislike her but she was weak tonight. A shame she was still having to defend Cleggs coalition but that is now a liberal legacy.

[Curried]

Corbyn gets a B grade. He knows his manifesto back to front and he actually looked reasonably smart. I get why people will vote for him.

Sturgeon gets an A. It would have been A+ but she failed to understand and therefore answer the "Once in a lifetime" question. Walks, talks and radiates confidence.

Swinson earned no more than a D. Didn't sound convincing at all and was ripped a new one by her female inquisitors, can't wait to hear the misogynist spin on that particular car crash. As I expected her voting history and past have come back to bite her on the bum.

Boris was a solid F. I think he might actually have had the wrong exam paper.


I'd give her the A+ as I'm pretty sure she saw that question as a trap and deliberately avoided it, as it would have brought Alex Salmond's name to the fore.

Other than that, sound marking :-)

[Cataplana]

He earns above 80K per year yet claims he isn't in the top fifty per cent in income :faf:

It was the top 5%. I thought he was a liability, as only people on over 80k a year would empathise, and if Corbyn is right, that's only 5% of the population.

His wife was even worse. The Labour guy said not all solicitors earn over 80k, he was on 40k when he was a solicitor.

All she could say was "rubbish."

[Ozyhibby]

I agree, I thought Swinson came across as quite angry tonight, previous lib leaders would have waltzed that questioning. I dont dislike her but she was weak tonight. A shame she was still having to defend Cleggs coalition but that is now a liberal legacy.

Funny thing is she had to defend it more than Johnson.


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[McD]

I agree, I thought Swinson came across as quite angry tonight, previous lib leaders would have waltzed that questioning. I dont dislike her but she was weak tonight. A shame she was still having to defend Cleggs coalition but that is now a liberal legacy.


yes, she came across as very defensive.

she did very clearly state that the Lib Dems would not enter a coalition with the Torys. That remains to be seen

[Ozyhibby]

yes, she came across as very defensive.

she did very clearly state that the Lib Dems would not enter a coalition with the Torys. That remains to be seen

I think the Lib Dem experience makes any coalition with the Tories for any party unlikely. I doubt the SNP would enter a coalition with Labour either. They would not want Corbyn crashing the economy on them.


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[McD]

I think the Lib Dem experience makes any coalition with the Tories for any party unlikely. I doubt the SNP would enter a coalition with Labour either. They would not want Corbyn crashing the economy on them.


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:agree: I’m not sure there will be a coalition, certainly between any 2 parties, and I don’t see how a larger coalition could work on an ongoing basis.

[Hibbyradge]

Ooft!

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1197640432261509122?s=09

[Pete]

Ooft!

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1197640432261509122?s=09

Is that supposed to cut people to the quick?

All it demonstrates is that this woman doesn't have a clue what socialism is if she regards the current labour party as 'extremist'.
It's just another attempt by an old centrist to paint their own beliefs as being left wing when they really aren't. 'Oh the horror of nationalisation/let's leave it to the private sector/wheres the money coming from/lifelong labour supporter/but but antisemitism'.
This is nothing new, this time it's just wrapped up in an unfunny video.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it true that the @LibDems are considering legal action against the #BBC for allowing her to take part in last night's #BBCQTDebate ?
#CarCrash
#GeneralElection19

[Pete]

It worked well with none of them getting an easy ride. Sturgeon was head and shoulders above the others. When I watched Corbyn open things I hadn’t thought he had done that well but compared to the remaining two he had a good night. Swinson’s dreams of doing a Clegg must surely be over. Johnson swung between mediocre and poor. It’s depressing that he still looks like remaining as PM.

I thought Sturgeon did get an easy ride compared to the other three who, let's face it, were absolutely crucified at times.
Not her fault though and was more to do with the audience and the context of the show. It was always going to be a fairly narrow line of questioning.
However, I'm sure she would have dealt with it very well if she had been grilled a bit more as she is the real deal as far as leaders go.

[Pete]

Is it true that the @LibDems are considering legal action against the #BBC for allowing her to take part in last night's #BBCQTDebate ?
#CarCrash
#GeneralElection19

Lol I also hear that certain Tories are taking action because of the skewed nature of last night's audience. 😂

[Pretty Boy]

Ooft!

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1197640432261509122?s=09

Even by the standards set by The Sun that's woeful.

[CloudSquall]

Is that supposed to cut people to the quick?

All it demonstrates is that this woman doesn't have a clue what socialism is if she regards the current labour party as 'extremist'.
It's just another attempt by an old centrist to paint their own beliefs as being left wing when they really aren't. 'Oh the horror of nationalisation/let's leave it to the private sector/wheres the money coming from/lifelong labour supporter/but but antisemitism'.
This is nothing new, this time it's just wrapped up in an unfunny video.

"He wants to get his allotment hands on my broadband"


You'd think he wanted to nationalise it and then shut the internet down.


It's good to read up on how South Korea government managed their broadband development, they now have the fastest internet in the world and the speeds are embarassingly fast compared to what is on offer in the UK (and pretty much everywhere else).

Edit: and WTF are allotment hands?

[Alex Trager]

Really? I'm surprised to hear that. She always comes across as very establishment. I know she attended private school (that doesn't necessarily make her a Conservative) and isn't she married to a City trader? Again that doesn't make her a Tory, but the tone of her reporting has always made me think she is centre-right. I might be wrong of course, but that's the feeling I've always had.

She’s 100% a tory.

The tone and approach of her reporting is always pro tory anti anyone else (generally Labour).

She put out an article during the week about the tory in aberdeen who had been caught with holocaust denial history, and also included a bit about a labour chairperson who stepped down in the headline.


Not a single word on the tory mp in the article, provided no clarity as to why he had been removed.

[J-C]

The guy questioning Sturgeon on the once in a lifetime quote is 100% pro independence, he goes under the name of King of Jockistan on Twitter, he was saying he hoped she would see why he kept pushing so that she could knock it on the head once and for all and acknowledged the fact Nicola never sussed it out and moved on quickly.

[Alex Trager]

He earns above 80K per year yet claims he isn't in the top fifty per cent in income :faf:

I’ve thought a great deal about this guy in the last two days, and I really hope he’s not on social media.

If he is he will be getting bullied to an inch of his life.

The labour man he was speaking to missed a real opportunity to educate him, he should have been drilling it into him that he IS in the top 5% of earners.

The guy was so uninformed it’s untrue, but that is what the media tell people.

He should have done his research before going onto tele, but the tory media tell you that corbyn is going after you hard earned and that is a bad thing.

[CloudSquall]

The guy questioning Sturgeon on the once in a lifetime quote is 100% pro independence, he goes under the name of King of Jockistan on Twitter, he was saying he hoped she would see why he kept pushing so that she could knock it on the head once and for all and acknowledged the fact Nicola never sussed it out and moved on quickly.


I looked through the comments and came across the video of Salmond saying "once in a generation", it's never mentioned that he 1) clearly emphasised it's his view, and 2) said that another referendum could occur if there was a mandate given in a subsequent GE.

https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1073359279883735040


Boris, Gove and co need to be firmly telt on this when they start with the "once in a generation" line as if it was set in law.

[Pretty Boy]

There was a lady from Bristol on BBC Breakfast this morning. A single parent who was using a foodbabk to feed her family. She stated her voting intentions were either Green or The Conservatives because she likes Boris Johnson and he'll 'really fight for what he believes in'.

On the one hand it's easy to mock or just shake your head in disbelief. However you really have to wonder how we have got to such a stage. There's a lowest common denominator politics at play. The leader of the opposition has been demonised as a dangerous Marxist (he's not), people are conditioned to believe immigration is the root cause of all their problems (it's not) and we have somehow reached a point were a dishonest, cheating, immoral buffoon is seen as a champion of the marginalised (he is definitely not).

I was, and am, a soft yes voter when it comes to independence. Under a progressive UK government I could easily be tempted to vote no. I've generally always adhered to the internationalist element of soft left politics. However, and I think someone else said it earlier on the thread, if a majority of English voters continue to go down a very divergent route from what we are seeing in Scotland then there comes a point at which you just have to cut them loose and accept they have made their choice. This election and the choice Labour make at their next leadership contest in the aftermath is going to be a critical point in the future of the union.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd give her the A+ as I'm pretty sure she saw that question as a trap and deliberately avoided it, as it would have brought Alex Salmond's name to the fore.

Other than that, sound marking :-)

Fair point and she'll have to answer that question at some stage.

[matty_f]

Ooft!

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1197640432261509122?s=09

What a lot of bull****.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought Sturgeon did get an easy ride compared to the other three who, let's face it, were absolutely crucified at times.
Not her fault though and was more to do with the audience and the context of the show. It was always going to be a fairly narrow line of questioning.
However, I'm sure she would have dealt with it very well if she had been grilled a bit more as she is the real deal as far as leaders go.

I think Sturgeon got it relatively easy because she's relatively bomb proof. She's heading a government that's been in power for more than a decade that would appear to be doing a lot right, they are still riding high in the polls because they're doing a decent job. Out of all the governments the UK has seen in recent times, the Scottish government is the one that at least appears to be working for those that voted them in. Their record isn't perfect but compared to the others they're a shining light in an otherwise dark night sky, that makes them hard to attack.

[Hibrandenburg]

The guy questioning Sturgeon on the once in a lifetime quote is 100% pro independence, he goes under the name of King of Jockistan on Twitter, he was saying he hoped she would see why he kept pushing so that she could knock it on the head once and for all and acknowledged the fact Nicola never sussed it out and moved on quickly.

That was my feeling as well. It felt like he was teeing up a ball for her to drive down the range.

[The Harp Awakes]

I think Sturgeon got it relatively easy because she's relatively bomb proof. She's heading a government that's been in power for more than a decade that would appear to be doing a lot right, they are still riding high in the polls because they're doing a decent job. Out of all the governments the UK has seen in recent times, the Scottish government is the one that at least appears to be working for those that voted them in. Their record isn't perfect but compared to the others they're a shining light in an otherwise dark night sky, that makes them hard to attack.

:agree:

A very good summary.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Sturgeon got it relatively easy because she's relatively bomb proof. She's heading a government that's been in power for more than a decade that would appear to be doing a lot right, they are still riding high in the polls because they're doing a decent job. Out of all the governments the UK has seen in recent times, the Scottish government is the one that at least appears to be working for those that voted them in. Their record isn't perfect but compared to the others they're a shining light in an otherwise dark night sky, that makes them hard to attack.

She also knows her brief. She can quote stats on waiting times, knife crime, broadband access, obesity rates, drug abuse etc of the top of her head in a way that no other politician in the uk can. And her govt are very competent. It’s easy to say they could be doing better but there are no other examples in the uk of a govt doing better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[J-C]

I also liked the fact she was very quick to ask the ex drug addict to give her details as she wanted to get her involved in the anti drug campaign, positive leading by a very competent leader.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’ve thought a great deal about this guy in the last two days, and I really hope he’s not on social media.

If he is he will be getting bullied to an inch of his life.

The labour man he was speaking to missed a real opportunity to educate him, he should have been drilling it into him that he IS in the top 5% of earners.

The guy was so uninformed it’s untrue, but that is what the media tell people.

He should have done his research before going onto tele, but the tory media tell you that corbyn is going after you hard earned and that is a bad thing.

The guy looked like he was going to have a stroke. Anyone who earns 80k but is not willing to put £10 a month more back into the system to help make a better society for all is pretty much begging to get abused. I'm finding it hard to find any sympathy for him. I represent a 300+ group of individuals who earn 120k basic pay and NONE of them would embarrass themselves over a tenner like that clown.

[Hibrandenburg]

I also liked the fact she was very quick to ask the ex drug addict to give her details as she wanted to get her involved in the anti drug campaign, positive leading by a very competent leader.

:agree:

[Jack Hackett]

I’ve thought a great deal about this guy in the last two days, and I really hope he’s not on social media.

If he is he will be getting bullied to an inch of his life.

The labour man he was speaking to missed a real opportunity to educate him, he should have been drilling it into him that he IS in the top 5% of earners.

The guy was so uninformed it’s untrue, but that is what the media tell people.

He should have done his research before going onto tele, but the tory media tell you that corbyn is going after you hard earned and that is a bad thing.

He deleted his Facebook account

[Hibbyradge]

Is that supposed to cut people to the quick?

All it demonstrates is that this woman doesn't have a clue what socialism is if she regards the current labour party as 'extremist'.
It's just another attempt by an old centrist to paint their own beliefs as being left wing when they really aren't. 'Oh the horror of nationalisation/let's leave it to the private sector/wheres the money coming from/lifelong labour supporter/but but antisemitism'.
This is nothing new, this time it's just wrapped up in an unfunny video.

Cool. No damage done then. 👍

[Hibbyradge]

What a lot of bull****.

Obviously, but who's watching that stuff?

It's brutal

[Hibernia&Alba]

There was a lady from Bristol on BBC Breakfast this morning. A single parent who was using a foodbabk to feed her family. She stated her voting intentions were either Green or The Conservatives because she likes Boris Johnson and he'll 'really fight for what he believes in'.

On the one hand it's easy to mock or just shake your head in disbelief. However you really have to wonder how we have got to such a stage. There's a lowest common denominator politics at play. The leader of the opposition has been demonised as a dangerous Marxist (he's not), people are conditioned to believe immigration is the root cause of all their problems (it's not) and we have somehow reached a point were a dishonest, cheating, immoral buffoon is seen as a champion of the marginalised (he is definitely not).

I was, and am, a soft yes voter when it comes to independence. Under a progressive UK government I could easily be tempted to vote no. I've generally always adhered to the internationalist element of soft left politics. However, and I think someone else said it earlier on the thread, if a majority of English voters continue to go down a very divergent route from what we are seeing in Scotland then there comes a point at which you just have to cut them loose and accept they have made their choice. This election and the choice Labour make at their next leadership contest in the aftermath is going to be a critical point in the future of the union.

How is it possible to be wavering between Green and Conservative? They as far apart as any of the parties standing. It's a bit like a voter in Northern Ireland saying they are wavering between the DUP and Sinn Fein - "I like both Gerry Adams and Gregory Campbell and agree with them" :greengrin

[G B Young]

I loathe Question Time so I was never going to spend my Friday night watching the leaders' special, but I just had a flick through the BBC 'highlights'.

First observation, it wasn't really Question Time was it? If so they'd have had the leaders on a panel at the same time and able to debate/slag off each other.

As for the performances it seems to me Sturgeon was always going to get the easiest ride due to the fact the vast majority of the audience won't have an SNP candidate on their ballot paper which meant the questions were a bit token and one-dimensional. She still looked to be her usual professional self though.

Corbyn? Just the usual two takeaways from him: He can't shake the anti-Semitism issue and he took his Brexit stance to new levels of fence-sitting vagueness. He's no leader.

Swinson's inexperience on the big stage caught up with her badly. They might have been better with Chuka Umunna as leader.

Johnson gave his usual Marmite display. Didn't get himself into any real trouble which is pretty much all he needs to do during this campaign.

[grunt]

Corbyn? ... took his Brexit stance to new levels of fence-sitting vagueness. :dunno:

I thought he was pretty clear on the subject.

[One Day Soon]

It will be much more interesting to see the new shape of politics with Corbyn out of the way after the election, Swinson potentially following him if the L/Ds perform really badly (though she likely gets another crack at it if she wants to stay), Sturgeon gone by March or soon after and Johnson having to deal with the messy reality of his own small majority government taking full responsibility for Brexit.

[Since90+2]

It will be much more interesting to see the new shape of politics with Corbyn out of the way after the election, Swinson potentially following him if the L/Ds perform really badly (though she likely gets another crack at it if she wants to stay), Sturgeon gone by March or soon after and Johnson having to deal with the messy reality of his own small majority government taking full responsibility for Brexit.

Why would Sturgeon be gone by March? She is , by considerable distance , the best leader of any political party in the UK at the moment.

[matty_f]

:dunno:

I thought he was pretty clear on the subject.

:agree: and the stance is sensible/logical.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree: and the stance is sensible/logical.

He could have saved himself a lot of bother if he had went that way earlier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete]

I also liked the fact she was very quick to ask the ex drug addict to give her details as she wanted to get her involved in the anti drug campaign, positive leading by a very competent leader.

Did anyone notice Boris trying the same thing? 🤣

[Pete]

Well well. The guy who was giving Corbyn a hard time over anti semitism and was so hurt by his 'treatment' of a Jewish MP is a Tory activist who has been on QT four times before.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/08/ryan-jacobsz-to-win-the-next-election-the-conservatives-must-make-better-use-of-their-activists.html

[RyeSloan]

I looked through the comments and came across the video of Salmond saying "once in a generation", it's never mentioned that he 1) clearly emphasised it's his view, and 2) said that another referendum could occur if there was a mandate given in a subsequent GE.

https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1073359279883735040


Boris, Gove and co need to be firmly telt on this when they start with the "once in a generation" line as if it was set in law.

It wasn’t set in law but it was clear in the white paper opening statement:


If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.


Then in Salmond preface he again refers to a generational opportunity:

Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.


So maybe we can once and for all agree that it wasn’t just a throw away line and the vote was presented quite clearly as a once in a generation opportunity, it’s there in black and white in the key publication the SNP produced to support their position in the vote.

[One Day Soon]

Why would Sturgeon be gone by March? She is , by considerable distance , the best leader of any political party in the UK at the moment.

Watch that space....

[Moulin Yarns]

Watch that space....

:fishin: :faf:

[The Harp Awakes]

Watch that space....

Aye right then:yawn:

[G B Young]

Well well. The guy who was giving Corbyn a hard time over anti semitism and was so hurt by his 'treatment' of a Jewish MP is a Tory activist who has been on QT four times before.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/08/ryan-jacobsz-to-win-the-next-election-the-conservatives-must-make-better-use-of-their-activists.html

So what? Doesn't mean his point wasn't valid or that he was somehow barred from asking a question critical of Corbyn.

The dad giving Johnson a hard time in the hospital a few weeks back is a Labour activist. He was still entitled to his point of view.

[G B Young]

Why would Sturgeon be gone by March? She is , by considerable distance , the best leader of any political party in the UK at the moment.

I think what he's implying is that the Salmond court case has the potential to bring her down. I'd hope that doesn't prove to be the case as while I don't support independence I've always thought she was an honest and principled politician - although should Salmond be found guilty it would seem hard to believe that senior SNP figures had zero awareness of what was going on.

[Cataplana]

Did anyone notice Boris trying the same thing? 🤣

Probably looking for somewhere to score.

[G B Young]

:dunno:

I thought he was pretty clear on the subject.

Alongside the anti-Semitism issue Corbyn's biggest weakness has been his indecisiveness over Brexit. Pressed for a more decisive view for months he's now become (as one of the BBC pundits put it) more decisive about sitting on the fence. To give the impression he is indifferent to an issue which has dominated politics for well over three years is extraordinary - especially bearing in mind the way the issue dominates the electoral agenda in leave supporting areas.

[CloudSquall]

It wasn’t set in law but it was clear in the white paper opening statement:


If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.


Then in Salmond preface he again refers to a generational opportunity:

Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.


So maybe we can once and for all agree that it wasn’t just a throw away line and the vote was presented quite clearly as a once in a generation opportunity, it’s there in black and white in the key publication the SNP produced to support their position in the vote.

Or maybe we don't, given neither statement actually says "we're having one referendum for a generation which is defined as x number of years" and can be interpreted in a number of ways, usually dependent on the reader's position towards another referendum.

In any case, even if it had been categorically stated that it was "once in a generation" that becomes completely void if a party (the SNP) are given a mandate by the electorate to hold another one.

[grunt]

Alongside the anti-Semitism issue Corbyn's biggest weakness has been his indecisiveness over Brexit. Pressed for a more decisive view for months he's now become (as one of the BBC pundits put it) more decisive about sitting on the fence. To give the impression he is indifferent to an issue which has dominated politics for well over three years is extraordinary - especially bearing in mind the way the issue dominates the electoral agenda in leave supporting areas.Well if you take that view then nothing he said would have satisfied you. I'm pretty sure whatever you think about his reply yesterday, you couldn't really accuse him of vagueness.

[grunt]

It will be much more interesting to see the new shape of politics with Corbyn out of the way after the election, Swinson potentially following him if the L/Ds perform really badly (though she likely gets another crack at it if she wants to stay), Sturgeon gone by March or soon after and Johnson having to deal with the messy reality of his own small majority government taking full responsibility for Brexit.This is terrible news. I had no idea she was giving up politics. Oh dear, what will the SNP do?

[Pete]

So what? Doesn't mean his point wasn't valid or that he was somehow barred from asking a question critical of Corbyn.

The dad giving Johnson a hard time in the hospital a few weeks back is a Labour activist. He was still entitled to his point of view.

There's a lot more sincerity in the complaints of a guy who was actually in a hospital for a legitimate reason than an audience plant who feigned outrage and twisted the realities of a specific incident.

[Pete]

This is terrible news. I had no idea she was giving up politics. Oh dear, what will the SNP do?

She can chum Jeremy Corbyn to the dole office as he'll be away just before that. Apparently.

After all these unexpected results in elections and referendums recently, you'd think people would learn.

[One Day Soon]

This is terrible news. I had no idea she was giving up politics. Oh dear, what will the SNP do?

Better start familiarising yourself with Derek Mackay...

[One Day Soon]

She can chum Jeremy Corbyn to the dole office as he'll be away just before that. Apparently.

After all these unexpected results in elections and referendums recently, you'd think people would learn.


Dole office? Corbyn has a pension the size of Alaska to look forward to.

After Corbyn underperforming so spectacularly electorally and in polling you'd think people would learn.

[RyeSloan]

Or maybe we don't, given neither statement actually says "we're having one referendum for a generation which is defined as x number of years" and can be interpreted in a number of ways, usually dependent on the reader's position towards another referendum.

In any case, even if it had been categorically stated that it was "once in a generation" that becomes completely void if a party (the SNP) are given a mandate by the electorate to hold another one.

There is no ‘if’ about it the white paper clearly states that it’s a once in a generation opportunity...it’s right there in the opening paragraphs. It clearly states that if that opportunity is not taken then it’s lost.

So let’s be clear this ‘once in a generation’ stuff was no slip of the tongue from Salmond in one interview nor was it just his personal view. That much is irrefutable.

[Pete]

Alongside the anti-Semitism issue Corbyn's biggest weakness has been his indecisiveness over Brexit. Pressed for a more decisive view for months he's now become (as one of the BBC pundits put it) more decisive about sitting on the fence. To give the impression he is indifferent to an issue which has dominated politics for well over three years is extraordinary - especially bearing in mind the way the issue dominates the electoral agenda in leave supporting areas.

He's not 'indifferent' as some put it, he recognises that there are two large groups of people with differing views who need to be brought together.

Far from being a weakness, it's a mature stance to take and shows the kind of leadership that is necessary in such a situation. Also, what would you think would happen to a leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses?

Far from being a revelation, last night's statement of neutrality was a dumbing down for those who operate at a certain base and need things spelled out for them.

Far from being something to latch onto and weaponise, it should be seen for what it is...a common sense approach to the situation that brings people together, not divides them further.

[Smartie]

So what? Doesn't mean his point wasn't valid or that he was somehow barred from asking a question critical of Corbyn.

The dad giving Johnson a hard time in the hospital a few weeks back is a Labour activist. He was still entitled to his point of view.

I don’t like the modern phenomenon of everyone falling over themselves to discredit every critical or dissenting voice who makes life a bit uncomfortable (Gove’s display the other day was a disgrace).

Corbyn has a few questions to answer on the subject, they’re as well coming his way that way as any other.

[Pete]

I don’t like the modern phenomenon of everyone falling over themselves to discredit every critical or dissenting voice who makes life a bit uncomfortable (Gove’s display the other day was a disgrace).

Corbyn has a few questions to answer on the subject, they’re as well coming his way that way as any other.

It depends how these questions are framed though. If the guy had opened by stating his political allegiance then I dont think anyone would have minded. Trying to come across as 'concerned dad from Sheffield' 😂.

I do concede that these questions do have to come from somewhere and it does make good TV. It also gives the leaders a chance to turn it into a positive by giving a good response.

[Frankhfc]

He's not 'indifferent' as some put it, he recognises that there are two large groups of people with differing views who need to be brought together.

Far from being a weakness, it's a mature stance to take and shows the kind of leadership that is necessary in such a situation. Also, what would you think would happen to a leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses?

Far from being a revelation, last night's statement of neutrality was a dumbing down for those who operate at a certain base and need things spelled out for them.

Far from being something to latch onto and weaponise, it should be seen for what it is...a common sense approach to the situation that brings people together, not divides them further.

Couldn't disagree more with this post as to Corbyn.

He's being entirely duplicitous. A leader is supposed to be entirely that. He's not chair of some committee or other, he's put himself forward to become Prime Minister and to sit on the fence and pretend that this stance shows maturity is quite frankly pathetic.

How would Sturgeon look if she pretended to be neutral on independence and state that she'd take no part in either promoting it or dismissing it. The truth is that she wouldn't be so cowardly.

Corbyn is a weak man and an even weaker leader.

[G B Young]

He's not 'indifferent' as some put it, he recognises that there are two large groups of people with differing views who need to be brought together.

Far from being a weakness, it's a mature stance to take and shows the kind of leadership that is necessary in such a situation. Also, what would you think would happen to a leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses?

Far from being a revelation, last night's statement of neutrality was a dumbing down for those who operate at a certain base and need things spelled out for them.

Far from being something to latch onto and weaponise, it should be seen for what it is...a common sense approach to the situation that brings people together, not divides them further.

You credit Corbyn with too much intelligence. His latest attempt to firm up Labour's weak position on Brexit is the latest fudge thought up by his advisors ie let's try to present Jeremy as the only adult in the room.

A leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses will of course find himself out of a job, but surely better to go down in flames standing by your principles than campaign for neither outcome and still lose.

[G B Young]

It depends how these questions are framed though. If the guy had opened by stating his political allegiance then I dont think anyone would have minded. Trying to come across as 'concerned dad from Sheffield' 😂.

I do concede that these questions do have to come from somewhere and it does make good TV. It also gives the leaders a chance to turn it into a positive by giving a good response.

Unless Question Time had introducd a stipulation that every audience member states their political allegiance prior to asking their question then I fail to see the big deal here. My point about the dad in the hospital was more of a general one ie dig beneath the surface and this sort of thing goes on all the time. For example Labour were last week forced to pull an election broadcast narrated by an actress purporting to be a nurse. In an ideal world transparency would be the watchword for all political parties but with an election at stake I'm afraid all parties will bend the truth to their own ends.

[Bristolhibby]

It wasn’t set in law but it was clear in the white paper opening statement:


If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.


Then in Salmond preface he again refers to a generational opportunity:

Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.


So maybe we can once and for all agree that it wasn’t just a throw away line and the vote was presented quite clearly as a once in a generation opportunity, it’s there in black and white in the key publication the SNP produced to support their position in the vote.

So what? That was then. This is now.

No relevance. 2014 is over.

And yes, there can be referendums every year if the Scottish electorate desire.

J

[heretoday]

So what? That was then. This is now.

No relevance. 2014 is over.

And yes, there can be referendums every year if the Scottish electorate desire.

J

Yeah! Let's have division and uncertainty every year. Great stuff!

[lapsedhibee]

My point about the dad in the hospital was more of a general one ie dig beneath the surface and this sort of thing goes on all the time.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he made his daughter ill that day just to get access to Johnson and the media coverage.

[Pete]

Couldn't disagree more with this post as to Corbyn.

He's being entirely duplicitous. A leader is supposed to be entirely that. He's not chair of some committee or other, he's put himself forward to become Prime Minister and to sit on the fence and pretend that this stance shows maturity is quite frankly pathetic.

How would Sturgeon look if she pretended to be neutral on independence and state that she'd take no part in either promoting it or dismissing it. The truth is that she wouldn't be so cowardly.

Corbyn is a weak man and an even weaker leader.

I can see the other side of the argument and understand why people consider his stance a 'weak' one. However, your comparison couldn't be more ridiculous given Sturgeon is the leader of a political party who's raison d'etre is independence 😆

[Pete]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he made his daughter ill that day just to get access to Johnson and the media coverage.

🤣

[Cataplana]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he made his daughter ill that day just to get access to Johnson and the media coverage.

He could well have had a tip off about when The Ape was visiting though, and made sure he was in to visit.

[Moulin Yarns]

It wasn’t set in law but it was clear in the white paper opening statement:


If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.


Then in Salmond preface he again refers to a generational opportunity:

Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.


So maybe we can once and for all agree that it wasn’t just a throw away line and the vote was presented quite clearly as a once in a generation opportunity, it’s there in black and white in the key publication the SNP produced to support their position in the vote.


I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

[G B Young]

I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.

[Peevemor]

Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.But none of that was official. Nothing Salmond said in interviews was set in stone yet some people would have us believe otherwise.

[G B Young]

But none of that was official. Nothing Salmond said in interviews was set in stone yet some people would have us believe otherwise.

I was quoting from the Scottish Government's white paper 'Scotland's Future' which I'd suggest was pretty authoritative.

[G B Young]

I can see the other side of the argument and understand why people consider his stance a 'weak' one. However, your comparison couldn't be more ridiculous given Sturgeon is the leader of a political party who's raison d'etre is independence 😆

Sturgeon herself has called out closet Brexiteer Corbyn today over his weasel words about being an 'honest broker':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50528961?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5dd963c78c42df06637bb3ae%26Watch%3A%20 Corbyn%27s%20Brexit%20stance%20%27will%20feed%20su spicion%27%20says%20Sturgeon%262019-11-23T17%3A02%3A43.525Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:56618f28-a552-4e3c-b5f4-feea142491ae&pinned_post_asset_id=5dd963c78c42df06637bb3ae&pinned_post_type=share

[Moulin Yarns]

Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.

How do you know what he was referring to? A political generation by definition is the term of any government, the Thatcher political generation was longer than the Gordon brown one.

[Pete]

Sturgeon herself has called out closet Brexiteer Corbyn today over his weasel words about being an 'honest broker':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50528961?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5dd963c78c42df06637bb3ae%26Watch%3A%20 Corbyn%27s%20Brexit%20stance%20%27will%20feed%20su spicion%27%20says%20Sturgeon%262019-11-23T17%3A02%3A43.525Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:56618f28-a552-4e3c-b5f4-feea142491ae&pinned_post_asset_id=5dd963c78c42df06637bb3ae&pinned_post_type=share

'Weasel words'. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure your hatred of Mr Corbyn is entirely healthy.

[RyeSloan]

I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

Classic straw man at the end there. [emoji23]

[Mibbes Aye]

I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a 5-year government as a generation and my original degree was in politics. One government is not a political generation, it takes much more than that.

I think you are making things up, I’m afraid.

[Cataplana]

I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a 5-year government as a generation and my original degree was in politics. One government is not a political generation, it takes much more than that.

I think you are making things up, I’m afraid.

Why all the arguing about what a generation is, when we all know what a change of circumstances (such as leaving the EU) is?

[Mibbes Aye]

Why all the arguing about what a generation is, when we all know what a change of circumstances (such as leaving the EU) is?

I don’t see any arguing. Moulin Yarns keeps repeating his point and I merely posted that I think it’s entirely false.

[Cataplana]

I don’t see any arguing. Moulin Yarns keeps repeating his point and I merely posted that I think it’s entirely false.

I meant, in general, honest.

[Ozyhibby]

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[Hibernia&Alba]

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Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option :shocked:. I don't know how this is possible; the world is insane.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option :shocked:. I don't know how this possible; the world is insane.

Is that not a week old that poll?


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[lapsedhibee]

Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option :shocked:. I don't know how this is possible; the world is insane.
Perhaps because more people will have seen/heard the Tory press (etc)'s comments on the performance than will have seen the performance itself? Sturgeon was easily the best performer, but you wouldn't get any sense of that from Kuenssberg's reporting.

[lapsedhibee]

He could well have had a tip off about when The Ape was visiting though, and made sure he was in to visit.

Yes, not impossible that he did plan to berate Johnson on camera. Pure bonus that while he was doing it Johnson claimed, on camera, that there were no cameras there. :faf:

[Jones28]

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How the **** is this happening?!?!?

[Ozyhibby]

How the **** is this happening?!?!?

I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Perhaps because more people will have seen/heard the Tory press (etc)'s comments on the performance than will have seen the performance itself? Sturgeon was easily the best performer, but you wouldn't get any sense of that from Kuenssberg's reporting.

I didn’t see the debate, busy with family stuff and haven’t watched it on catch-up. I read a bit about it on here, though that’s not exactly balanced :greengrin

I did read the analysis of it by Andrew Sparrow and his colleagues who do the daily Politics Live on the Guardian website.

I don’t think any of them are natural Tories :greengrin but I have read their summary and analysis of PMQs and the like for a long time now and it has always felt relatively even-handed.

Their summary was that Johnson wasn’t fantastic but said the right things to the people he needs to speak to. Playing it safe with voters who should be his but might wobble.

Corbyn was weak and got better, but not game-chagingly better. He put to bed the issue about him and Brexit by declaring neutrality but that opens up internal dissent, given a greater number of the party membership favour Remain than voted for Corbyn.

Swinson seemed to have a nightmare. The Guardian said that she did have the most hostile questioning and little in the way of audience support, compared to the others, which probably doesn’t reflect the polls. What I found interesting was that there was a lot of studio flak about the commitment to revoke Brexit directly, rather than go to a second referendum. I have not seen any polling about simply revoking Brexit - is it really that unpopular? I know there are arguments about democracy and the will of the people etc, I’m more curious about how many people support a simple revocation.

Sturgeon was praised for being a bit above it all and a bit more measured. But it was also acknowledged that the context of the debate made life a lot easier for her.

I might try and watch it on catch-up if I can find the time.

[Pete]

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Polls schmoles.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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i just can't understand why the electorate are not falling for all the freebies from labours santa jeremy...it's baffling

[Frankhfc]

It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone can blame the press primarily because there's a choice of reading available. People aren't forced to read right leaning newspapers. They could just as easily pick up the Guardian, The Mirror or even the broadly centre left Independent. My own choice the Guardian is a left wing newspaper and if someone else wants to pick up the Daily Express for example that is entirely their choice to do so and having the freedom to choose is rightful in my opinion.

[Frankhfc]

I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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I'd be stunned if that poll was accurate.

I agree Corbyn is unappealing with his brexit stance bewildering but the tories won't have that kind of support despite Corbyn.

[Hibrandenburg]

He's not 'indifferent' as some put it, he recognises that there are two large groups of people with differing views who need to be brought together.

Far from being a weakness, it's a mature stance to take and shows the kind of leadership that is necessary in such a situation. Also, what would you think would happen to a leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses?

Far from being a revelation, last night's statement of neutrality was a dumbing down for those who operate at a certain base and need things spelled out for them.

Far from being something to latch onto and weaponise, it should be seen for what it is...a common sense approach to the situation that brings people together, not divides them further.

Corbyn has dedicated his life to being the middle man, I don't mean that in a bad way. To arbitrate peace you can't be seen to favour one side or the other. The British press have been so successful in their hatchet job on him that it's all but forgotten he also met with Israelis and Protestant paramilitaries, if you believe the press (and many do) then Corbyn is the embodiment of evil. He will never shake that image and is therefore unelectable.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

I would suggest the last five, even ten years have been a game changer when it comes to media influence.

People get their news feed online and through social media nowadays. And they often favour feeds that chime with their own views, which just reinforces silo-thinking.

You only need to look on here, where Twitter and blog links get posted as if they were fact. That’s not to say the traditional newspapers didn’t have their own biases but they don’t have the power and influence they did in years gone by. The Internet means people can find something that validates their own beliefs and then quote it as fact or gospel. And that is true for all shades of the political spectrum.

[Frankhfc]

Corbyn has dedicated his life to being the middle man, I don't mean that in a bad way. To arbitrate peace you can't be seen to favour one side or the other. The British press have been so successful in their hatchet job on him that it's all but forgotten he also met with Israelis and Protestant paramilitaries, if you believe the press (and many do) then Corbyn is the embodiment of evil. He will never shake that image and is therefore unelectable.

The real issue is that if Labour had in place a better leader then they would in my opinion be riding high in the polls.

[allmodcons]

I didn’t see the debate, busy with family stuff and haven’t watched it on catch-up. I read a bit about it on here, though that’s not exactly balanced :greengrin

I did read the analysis of it by Andrew Sparrow and his colleagues who do the daily Politics Live on the Guardian website.

I don’t think any of them are natural Tories :greengrin but I have read their summary and analysis of PMQs and the like for a long time now and it has always felt relatively even-handed.

Their summary was that Johnson wasn’t fantastic but said the right things to the people he needs to speak to. Playing it safe with voters who should be his but might wobble.

Corbyn was weak and got better, but not game-chagingly better. He put to bed the issue about him and Brexit by declaring neutrality but that opens up internal dissent, given a greater number of the party membership favour Remain than voted for Corbyn.

Swinson seemed to have a nightmare. The Guardian said that she did have the most hostile questioning and little in the way of audience support, compared to the others, which probably doesn’t reflect the polls. What I found interesting was that there was a lot of studio flak about the commitment to revoke Brexit directly, rather than go to a second referendum. I have not seen any polling about simply revoking Brexit - is it really that unpopular? I know there are arguments about democracy and the will of the people etc, I’m more curious about how many people support a simple revocation.

Sturgeon was praised for being a bit above it all and a bit more measured. But it was also acknowledged that the context of the debate made life a lot easier for her.

I might try and watch it on catch-up if I can find the time.

I watched the debate. Sturgeon and Corbyn were the best 2 performers. Swinson had a nightmare and Johnson was very poor making sure he mentioned "stopping Brexit" and "one nation Conservative Party" whenever the opportunity arose.

What struck me as unusual for Question Time was that the audience appeared to be heavily weighted in favour of Corbyn which IMO suited Sturgeon too. They were very hostile towards Swinson giving her a real grilling around the Tory/Lib Dem coalition and her voting record on austerity.

As I said Sturgeon was good but I think talking to an audience in England who were not too genned up on the Scottish political scene and wasn't full of hard line Brexiteers suited her and, consequently, made life a bit easier for her than the other leaders.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think anyone can blame the press primarily because there's a choice of reading available. People aren't forced to read right leaning newspapers. They could just as easily pick up the Guardian, The Mirror or even the broadly centre left Independent. My own choice the Guardian is a left wing newspaper and if someone else wants to pick up the Daily Express for example that is entirely their choice to do so and having the freedom to choose is rightful in my opinion.

Newspapers are a thing of the 20th century. People are caught in social media echo chambers, they no longer need to think for themselves because they're being intravenously fed "the facts".

[Frankhfc]

Newspapers are a thing of the 20th century. People are caught in social media echo chambers, they no longer need to think for themselves because they're being intravenously fed "the facts".]

Fair enough mate. The only social media I tend to go onto is Hibs net. I make a point of buying a Guardian most days as we might lose printed newspapers altogether and that would be a sad loss in my opinion.

:aok:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I would suggest the last five, even ten years have been a game changer when it comes to media influence.

People get their news feed online and through social media nowadays. And they often favour feeds that chime with their own views, which just reinforces silo-thinking.

You only need to look on here, where Twitter and blog links get posted as if they were fact. That’s not to say the traditional newspapers didn’t have their own biases but they don’t have the power and influence they did in years gone by. The Internet means people can find something that validates their own beliefs and then quote it as fact or gospel. And that is true for all shades of the political spectrum.

You may well have hit upon an important issue here. I don't do social media, meaning I'm spared the barrage it brings. You may well be right that many people, more than ever before, only read opinions that offer confirmation bias. I'm sceptical about the veracity of this so called 'anti-establishment era'.
I think we live in more conformist times than ever in terms of what constitutes a fulfilling life and a good society, namely a predominant belief that the accumulation of money and material possessions is the highest priority and the way to a happy life. Forty years of the neoliberal agenda has had an enormous impact, in my opinion, and I don't think the Labour governments of 1945 and 1964, for example, could get elected today.

[Mibbes Aye]

I watched the debate. Sturgeon and Corbyn were the best 2 performers. Swinson had a nightmare and Johnson was very poor making sure he mentioned "stopping Brexit" and "one nation Conservative Party" whenever the opportunity arose.

What struck me as unusual for Question Time was that the audience appeared to be heavily weighted in favour of Corbyn which IMO suited Sturgeon too. They were very hostile towards Swinson giving her a real grilling around the Tory/Lib Dem coalition and her voting record on austerity.

As I said Sturgeon was good but I think talking to an audience in England who were not too genned up on the Scottish political scene and wasn't full of hard line Brexiteers suited her and, consequently, made life a bit easier for her than the other leaders.

Thats not too dissimilar from what I read and I probably underplayed Corbyn because he failed to come out in favour of Remain (not that he was ever going to, Seamas wouldn’t let him :greengrin)

Take your point about Sturgeon, makes sense.

There is part of me that really dislikes the made-up venom against Swinson over the coalition. She was a junior minister, whipped to vote as part of an agreement that the Lib Dems thought would deliver a permanent, progressive and positive change to the electoral system.

That failed though. But even as a Labour Party member and a Brownite in old currency, it was clear in 2010 that Labour were simply not interested in dealing with the LDs after the election. It was also a tired administration. I don’t like what happened after 2010 but given the facts of the matter, I don’t blame the LDs for the course they took. I just pity the outcome.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Thats not too dissimilar from what I read and I probably underplayed Corbyn because he failed to come out in favour of Remain (not that he was ever going to, Seamas wouldn’t let him :greengrin)

Take your point about Sturgeon, makes sense.

There is part of me that really dislikes the made-up venom against Swinson over the coalition. She was a junior minister, whipped to vote as part of an agreement that the Lib Dems thought would deliver a permanent, progressive and positive change to the electoral system.

That failed though. But even as a Labour Party member and a Brownite in old currency, it was clear in 2010 that Labour were simply not interested in dealing with the LDs after the election. It was also a tired administration. I don’t like what happened after 2010 but given the facts of the matter, I don’t blame the LDs for the course they took. I just pity the outcome.

I can't accept that. Anybody who defines himself/herself as a progressive could not have voted for benefit cuts and the bedroom tax; surely you resign your post and declare that such policies are not what you signed up for, as they will hurt the least amongst us. That's called integrity before careerism.

[Mibbes Aye]

I can't accept that. Anybody who defines himself/herself as a progressive could not have voted for benefit cuts and the bedroom tax; surely you resign your post and declare that such policies are not what you signed up for, as they will hurt the least amongst us. That's called integrity before careerism.

It’s not integrity or careerism. It is simply politics.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It’s not integrity or careerism. It is simply politics.

Not when it hurts the weakest and poorest; those least able to defend themselves. You resign from government and speak out, if you're really a progressive.

[Frankhfc]

Not when it hurts the weakest and poorest; those least able to defend themselves. You resign from government and speak out, if you're really a progressive.

Completely agree with you. The optimum way in which to achieve this is to have a vibrant flexible economy that is able to compete both in existing and emerging world markets. One that ensures government coffers are plentiful in which to share around and that helps the least able and worst off in society. Scotland can easily be that modern vibrant country under Sturgeon if let loose. The last thing we want is to become a dead socialist one that impoverishes all of us.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Completely agree with you. The optimum way in which to achieve this is to have a vibrant flexible economy that is able to compete both in existing and emerging world markets. One that ensures government coffers are plentiful in which to share around and that helps the least able and worst off in society. Scotland can easily be that modern vibrant country under Sturgeon if let loose. The last thing we want is to become a dead socialist one that impoverishes all of us.

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Frank your post started really well, lost momentum and then completely collapsed at the end:greengrin

[Frankhfc]

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Frank your post started really well, lost momentum and then completely collapsed at the end:greengrin

:greengrin

Fair do's mate.

I just think when we do go independent that we're really going to have to shape up to make our mark and that will involve a great deal of realism over ideology.

[degenerated]

I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?The northern ireland act of 1998 states that if a border poll is held that it cannot be held again until a political generation has expired. A political generation is defined as being 7 years. The three main british unionist parties with Scottish branch offices are signatories to that agreement.
I would humbly suggest that this would suffice as precedent.

Though the whole once in a generation claim is a particularly poor one.

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[Moulin Yarns]

I don’t see any arguing. Moulin Yarns keeps repeating his point and I merely posted that I think it’s entirely false.

Keeps repeating!!!!?

Honestly, have you any idea how often I have posted my opinion on the length of a political generation?

Feel free to have a guess, because that's all it would be.



EDIT. Just seen the post from Degenerated which 'almost' confirmed my view. Thanks, I knew it was something I had heard somewhere.

[Smartie]

Even as a Yes voter I have an issue with the idea of constantly asking the question until you get the answer you want (and this relates to Scottish independence as well as revoking article 50 as well as possibly holding another Brexit referendum). I've made the point on here before that I think the case for Scottish independence is stronger than the case for a second referendum.

How often you should ask any question is hard to pin down and we'll all have our own opinions. Much of this debate is about semantics - picking apart what Alex Salmond may or may not have said in a tv interview a few years ago as if this should count as gospel is ridiculous.

Under any normal situation I'd be against Scotland having another referendum now - we made our bed, we need to lie in it.

I can't understand how anyone would see Brexit as anything other than a game changer though. Leaving the EU is a big deal, and only 5 years after the last referendum the main battlegrounds upon which that fight were fought have changed beyond recognition and I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Whether that takes 5 or 50 years, there is a legitimate debate to be had about putting the question back to the people.

I have some sympathy with the viewpoint that upon voting to remain within the UK that we chose to be vulnerable to acts of English nationalist self-harm such as Brexit that could seriously damage our lives and prospects and that we have to just live with that. Some sympathy, not much though.

My main concern about another referendum is the thought of losing it and what it might be like here for the years and decades to come after such a vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

Not when it hurts the weakest and poorest; those least able to defend themselves. You resign from government and speak out, if you're really a progressive.

I must have missed all those SNP resignations when they enforced the council tax freeze year after year.

It benefitted the richest over the poorest. The absolute poorest didn’t gain at all because they were exempt to begin with.

It was a middle class bribe. The double whammy was it deprived funding to local authorities. The services they had to cut were the ones they didn’t have a statutory duty to provide.

Those were the services that the poorest and most marginalised depended upon most. A lot of those services were never touched by people on a fair to decent income, but were touched by those on benefits or low incomes.

Not progressive in the slightest. But is was politics, I recognise that.

[Mibbes Aye]

Keeps repeating!!!!?

Honestly, have you any idea how often I have posted my opinion on the length of a political generation?

Feel free to have a guess, because that's all it would be.



EDIT. Just seen the post from Degenerated which 'almost' confirmed my view. Thanks, I knew it was something I had heard somewhere.

As it happens I am familiar with the legislation. And I am also familiar with the general definition of a ‘generation’ :wink:

The NI legislation doesn’t talk about ‘generations’. It talks about legal requirements that stipulate the SoS for NI has to ensure there is at least a seven year gap between border polls and that is caveated heavily by the circumstances in which he/she would consider such a poll.

That is before we get to it being part of the Good Friday agreement which automatically makes it so very, very different from any other part of the U.K.

Do you still want to keep claiming that a one-term Westminster government is a ‘generation’ because frankly it doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny?

[Ozyhibby]

I must have missed all those SNP resignations when they enforced the council tax freeze year after year.

It benefitted the richest over the poorest. The absolute poorest didn’t gain at all because they were exempt to begin with.

It was a middle class bribe. The double whammy was it deprived funding to local authorities. The services they had to cut were the ones they didn’t have a statutory duty to provide.

Those were the services that the poorest and most marginalised depended upon most. A lot of those services were never touched by people on a fair to decent income, but were touched by those on benefits or low incomes.

Not progressive in the slightest. But is was politics, I recognise that.

You make a good point about it being a bribe. It totally was an absolute full on retail offer to win votes. Where I disagree was about it being a middle class bribe. It wasn’t. It was a middle and working class bribe. When the offer was made the council tax had almost doubled in the previous ten years. It wasn’t just the middle class who were pee’d off with this. That wouldn’t have been enough to win. Everyone was pee’d off with the situation. The only people who didn’t care about the way council tax rates had been going were people who were exempt. And they are not great voters. That’s how politics works though in a democracy. You have to find an issue that the majority of the population agrees with and offer a solution. This was a gift to the SNP from a Labour Party that thought they could do whatever they liked in Scotland and it would not matter, they would be returned to govt without question.
Independence was no more than just a pipe dream in 2007, but the council tax freeze gave the SNP a way in. Once in power they cemented their position with a combination of framing Westminster as the opposition (a new labour trick with the Brown/Blair thing) and being very competent in office.
The one thing the independence movement does not thank enough is the Labour Party and their mistaken belief that they could just keeping dipping the pockets of Scottish voters through the council tax.


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[Cataplana]

:greengrin

Fair do's mate.

I just think when we do go independent that we're really going to have to shape up to make our mark and that will involve a great deal of realism over ideology.

I'll be looking for a lot more detail instead of hyperbole.

[CloudSquall]

Does the "Once in a Generation" statement mean anything if the electorate keeps deciding to give the SNP the mandate to push for another referendum?

If the electorate don't want one and really do want to abide by the "once in a generation" statement they can vote for Carlaw, Leonhard and Rennie.

[CloudSquall]

Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:

SNP: 40% (+1)
CON: 28% (+7)
LAB: 20% (+1)
LDM: 11% (-2)

Via
@Panelbase
, 20-22 Nov.
Changes w/ 9-11 Oct.

Not sure if the Tories are getting a boost from the Brexit Party standing down but my SNP Gain night doesn't look so promising..

[Just_Jimmy]

Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:

SNP: 40% (+1)
CON: 28% (+7)
LAB: 20% (+1)
LDM: 11% (-2)

Via
@Panelbase
, 20-22 Nov.
Changes w/ 9-11 Oct.

Not sure if the Tories are getting a boost from the Brexit Party standing down but my SNP Gain night doesn't look so promising..That's simply

Yes v no.


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[Ozyhibby]

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Even as a Yes voter I have an issue with the idea of constantly asking the question until you get the answer you want (and this relates to Scottish independence as well as revoking article 50 as well as possibly holding another Brexit referendum). I've made the point on here before that I think the case for Scottish independence is stronger than the case for a second referendum.

How often you should ask any question is hard to pin down and we'll all have our own opinions. Much of this debate is about semantics - picking apart what Alex Salmond may or may not have said in a tv interview a few years ago as if this should count as gospel is ridiculous.

Under any normal situation I'd be against Scotland having another referendum now - we made our bed, we need to lie in it.

I can't understand how anyone would see Brexit as anything other than a game changer though. Leaving the EU is a big deal, and only 5 years after the last referendum the main battlegrounds upon which that fight were fought have changed beyond recognition and I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Whether that takes 5 or 50 years, there is a legitimate debate to be had about putting the question back to the people.

I have some sympathy with the viewpoint that upon voting to remain within the UK that we chose to be vulnerable to acts of English nationalist self-harm such as Brexit that could seriously damage our lives and prospects and that we have to just live with that. Some sympathy, not much though.

My main concern about another referendum is the thought of losing it and what it might be like here for the years and decades to come after such a vote.

You may have a point, but it's a completely different issue and isn't comparable to cutting benefits to the disabled, for example. For what it's worth I would abolish the council tax as a way of raising local government funds, as it's related to property value, and replace it with a local income tax which is based upon earnings and is therefore truly in line with ability to pay. However, that's another issue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Should this be anything like accurate, I think the union could be finished within a couple of years. A stronger Tory Party and a stronger SNP in a post-Brexit UK would not hold together. I think it would be game over.

[G B Young]

'Weasel words'. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure your hatred of Mr Corbyn is entirely healthy.

I don't hate him. I just think he's a spectacularly awful leader of the Labour Party who we'll hopefully see the back of in a couple of weeks.

[G B Young]

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Can't get past the paywall to see what the figures are based on but the Telegraph's citing a poll predicting a 64-seat majority:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/23/polling-suggests-boris-johnson-set-win-64-seat-majority-brexit/

[CloudSquall]

That's simply

Yes v no.


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I read further that if the poll was correct Labour would lose all seats in Scotland bar Ian Murray (who's elected on a personal vote rather than a Labour vote), trying to out union the Tories is a disaster.

It seems a lot depends on how uniformed the percentages are across Scotland, if the percentages for the Tories were the same across Scotland they would lose one seat (Stirling), but they would lose another 4 if the swing was more than 2% away from them than in the poll.


The Times is saying the below, I'm hoping this is the typical "sources say" nonsense but could there really be that many nationalists willing to vote Tory for Brexit?

"SNP sources say there has been significant levels of doorstep feedback showing people who tend to vote nationalist will vote Tory this time due to their support for Brexit."



I'd imagine they will pull in votes from the north due to the fishing communities and in the South due to the fermers, but elsewhere? I'm guessing the "No Surrender / Follow on" types too..

[marinello59]

That's simply

Yes v no.


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Let's hope not because if that was the case only 40% of the Scottish electorate would be backing Independence.
Even in Scotland the main issue for many will be Brexit and we tend to forget the 38% of the Scottish electorate were in favour of it. Many of them, no matter which party they normally support, will be willing to lend their vote to the Tories this time round, they have nowhere else to go.

[marinello59]

I read further that if the poll was correct Labour would lose all seats in Scotland bar Ian Murray (who's elected on a personal vote rather than a Labour vote), trying to out union the Tories is a disaster.

It seems a lot depends on how uniformed the percentages are across Scotland, if the percentages for the Tories were the same across Scotland they would lose one seat (Stirling), but they would lose another 4 if the swing was more than 2% away from them than in the poll.


The Times is saying the below, I'm hoping this is the typical "sources say" nonsense but could there really be that many nationalists willing to vote Tory for Brexit?

"SNP sources say there has been significant levels of doorstep feedback showing people who tend to vote nationalist will vote Tory this time due to their support for Brexit."



I'd imagine they will pull in votes from the north due to the fishing communities and in the South due to the fermers, but elsewhere? I'm guessing the "No Surrender / Follow on" types too..

Why not? It would be a win - win for Nationalists who support Brexit. If the Tories gain a majority and Brexit happens as looks likely the pressure in Scotland for another referendum will be greatly increased.

[The Harp Awakes]

Let's hope not because if that was the case only 40% of the Scottish electorate would be backing Independence.
Even in Scotland the main issue for many will be Brexit and we tend to forget the 38% of the Scottish electorate were in favour of it. Many of them, no matter which party they normally support, will be willing to lend their vote to the Tories this time round, they have nowhere else to go.

A 40% poll in a GE would be a very solid result for the SNP and would see their number of seats increase to approaching 50. There will be many Yes voters who won't vote SNP in a GE for whatever reason; constituency tactical voting, many will vote Labour as the SNP can't win a GE, many will vote green and others just won't be @rsed to vote.

[marinello59]

A 40% poll in a GE would be a very solid result for the SNP and would see their number of seats increase to approaching 50. There will be many Yes voters who won't vote SNP in a GE for whatever reason; constituency tactical voting, many will vote Labour as the SNP can't win a GE, many will vote green and others just won't be @rsed to vote.

I'll be holding my nose and voting SNP as I think it's really important to register my support for Independence and against Brexit this time round. But if we portray this as a Yes/No election rather than a Brexit election in Scotland that 40% figure could be used against us. That's the point I was trying to make badly. (And continuing to make it badly, I know what I mean. :greengrin)

[CloudSquall]

Why not? It would be a win - win for Nationalists who support Brexit. If the Tories gain a majority and Brexit happens as looks likely the pressure in Scotland for another referendum will be greatly increased.

If the polls are correct Boris is heading for a majority, seats or no seats in Scotland, if we have a biggish block of Tory MPs north of the border with a minimal increase in SNP seats they will argue there is no appetite for a new referendum.

[marinello59]

If the polls are correct Boris is heading for a majority, seats or no seats in Scotland, if we have a biggish block of Tory MPs north of the border with a minimal increase in SNP seats they will argue there is no appetite for a new referendum.


They are going to say that regardless of the result.

[StevieC]

For what it's worth I would abolish the council tax as a way of raising local government funds, as it's related to property value, and replace it with a local income tax which is based upon earnings and is therefore truly in line with ability to pay. However, that's another issue.

Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

I see what you are saying but the house itself doesn't use the services provided by the Council, the occupants do. 4 occupants will obviously create more rubbish to be taken away than a single occupancy household.

I live in a small hamlet with no footpaths, streetlighting, sewers, I don't have children at school but I contribute to all these services through the Council Tax.

A tax on property is not an equitable form of taxation because you might have a widow in a 4 bedroom house who pays the same as the 5 person household next door (less the single occupancy rebate)

All IMHO of course :wink:

[StevieC]

Why not? It would be a win - win for Nationalists who support Brexit. If the Tories gain a majority and Brexit happens as looks likely the pressure in Scotland for another referendum will be greatly increased.

I agree. A Tory Brexit, in whatever form, will only increase the chances of Independence. However, given Boris’s stance on an Independence referendum, the best outcome for the SNP would be to hoover up Tory seats in Scotland (including Swinson) and hope that the Tories manage to get a working majority south of the border.
The worst possible outcome, IMO, would be a hung parliament with Labour getting into power based on a good SNP result in Scotland. Labour would promise so much for Scotland (wheel out Gordon Brown) that it would make winning an Independence referendum extremely difficult.

[CloudSquall]

They are going to say that regardless of the result.

True, but I'd rather have 45+ SNP MPs to weaken their argument further.

[StevieC]

Hopefully my reply comes across in the “non-argumentative” way I’m hoping


I see what you are saying but the house itself doesn't use the services provided by the Council, the occupants do. 4 occupants will obviously create more rubbish to be taken away than a single occupancy household.

Three years ago I would have agreed with that. Now we all have 1 small bin for our rubbish (which was a real struggle for us when it happened), but the emphasis on recycling has totally transformed the way we deal with rubbish. I now have a similar amount of rubbish as the neighbours, but almost full 2 bins of recycling (which the council actually make money on).
However, as you point out below, council tax isn’t just about rubbish.



I live in a small hamlet with no footpaths, streetlighting, sewers, I don't have children at school but I contribute to all these services through the Council Tax.


There are lots of services that council tax covers that many people will not benefit from. Water usage will be different, social care, disability support, public transport, schooling, parking. Lots of things all bundled in together that a lot of people will never see the benefit of. I would say I edge toward socialism though, so this sits okay with me.


A tax on property is not an equitable form of taxation because you might have a widow in a 4 bedroom house who pays the same as the 5 person household next door (less the single occupancy rebate)

Rebates might be the way to go. Whether it be single occupancy or means tested. Although the Tories felt the need to go in the opposite direction with the bedroom tax!

[Moulin Yarns]

Rebates might be the way to go. Whether it be single occupancy or means tested. Although the Tories felt the need to go in the opposite direction with the bedroom tax!

There are lots of problems with means testing, The National Audit Office reported lots of issues with coordination, and the cost effectiveness of means testing. I'd be happier with a personal accountability system which may be, but not necessarily, an income based taxation.

Slightly at a tangent, there were proposals in our council area to weigh waste at source, e.g. every wheelie bin would be chipped, bar coded, whatever, so that the collection was scanned and weighed and bills generated according to waste generated. Not sure how far it got before I left the council.

Anyways, we have gone way off topic :wink: This can be all fixed after independence when the Scottish Greens are in charge :greengrin

[Frankhfc]

There are lots of problems with means testing, The National Audit Office reported lots of issues with coordination, and the cost effectiveness of means testing. I'd be happier with a personal accountability system which may be, but not necessarily, an income based taxation.

Slightly at a tangent, there were proposals in our council area to weigh waste at source, e.g. every wheelie bin would be chipped, bar coded, whatever, so that the collection was scanned and weighed and bills generated according to waste generated. Not sure how far it got before I left the council.

Anyways, we have gone way off topic :wink: This can be all fixed after independence when the Scottish Greens are in charge :greengrin

I've already had issues with other neighbours deliberately putting their waste into my own and others wheelie bins. That would become far more of a problem with you're proposal as would fly tipping. Some people would simply stop using their bins and quietly fill up their neighbours instead or take it elsewhere and possibly dump it illegally. It wouldn't work and could easily generate far greater issues.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191124/0c98f1fe9b18b54ca8e3599e41c6ac61.jpg
Big difference in spending plans for the three unionist parties.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

I think there are far too many unfair anomalies with property tax. As you say, one house may have four earners and the house next door only one, yet they may pay the same council tax. The old rates system also created far too many such injustices. A local income tax would be proportionate, based upon the earnings of each person in the house. I think breaking the link between government funding and property values and instead tying it to income would be much fairer.

[Frankhfc]

I think there are far too many unfair anomalies with property tax. As you say, one house may have four earners and the house next door only one, yet they may pay the same council tax. The old rates system also created far too many such injustices. A local income tax would be proportionate, based upon the earnings of each person in the house. I think breaking the link between government funding and property values and instead tying it to income would be much fairer.

Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

Certainly not. That was a flat tax where everybody paid the same and was very regressive. A local income tax would reflect ability to pay, just like national income tax does. Those on a low wage would contribute little and pay less than the current council tax, very high earners would pay more than at present.

[Frankhfc]

Certainly not. That was a flat tax where everybody paid the same and was very regressive. A local income tax would reflect ability to pay, just like national income tax does. Those on a low wage would contribute little and pay less than the current council tax, very high earners would pay more than at present.

Thanks for explaining the difference.

:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

Not really. Everyone was hit with the same amount in the poll tax, a personal tax which is related to the ability to pay is very different.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191124/77816b75266c70c148236092e67e1de3.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

I wonder if Labour’s offer to waspi women will move the polls. It’s a flat out bribe to 3.5m women and in an age group Labour struggle with. It can be a lot of money for these women though at about £15k each.


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[Helensburghhibs]

Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice :agree:

The only side affect of trident in Scotland is jobs. This claim that it makes Scotland a target is complete tosh (that is why we house them on submarines) just look at Dunoon and the area around holy Loch if you want to see the effects of a area collapsing after losing a major base

[CloudSquall]

The dark side of me would rather hold on to the nukes for now and then upon independence charge the rest of the UK an absolute fortune to host them until they had a base adequate to hold them.

[Ozyhibby]

The only side affect of trident in Scotland is jobs. This claim that it makes Scotland a target is complete tosh (that is why we house them on submarines) just look at Dunoon and the area around holy Loch if you want to see the effects of a area collapsing after losing a major base

All those jobs are paid for using taxation which means jobs are lost elsewhere in the economy.


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[Helensburghhibs]

All those jobs are paid for using taxation which means jobs are lost elsewhere in the economy.


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I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

[Hibernia&Alba]

I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

More importantly, is it just nuclear weapons or also nuclear power that they oppose, like the Greens? Germany, the most powerful economy in Europe, has committed itself to being entirely nuclear free, and I think they are setting an excellent example.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

Of course we need to be wary of vested interests. The fact is, trident costs a fortune (£200bn +) and it is never used. There is a lot more Scotland could do with its share of that money. It works out at about £2m per job in Scotland so not really value for money for us. And not all the jobs need to go. The base could still be used.


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[Ozyhibby]

More importantly, is it just nuclear weapons or also nuclear power that they oppose, like the Greens? Germany, the most powerful economy in Europe, has committed itself to being entirely nuclear free, and I think they are setting an excellent example.

They oppose nuclear power although personally I have nothing against it. The problem is that it is far too expensive just now to make it worthwhile.


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[Frankhfc]

Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice :agree:

Hopefully get shot of the BBC licence fee asap too. I never watch BBC yet expected to pay around 140 pounds per year for it. We'll be well rid.

[Bristolhibby]

The dark side of me would rather hold on to the nukes for now and then upon independence charge the rest of the UK an absolute fortune to host them until they had a base adequate to hold them.

This. Massive bargaining chip. Plus we would benefit from the collective protection that they give.

Win-win.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Of course we need to be wary of vested interests. The fact is, trident costs a fortune (£200bn +) and it is never used. There is a lot more Scotland could do with its share of that money. It works out at about £2m per job in Scotland so not really value for money for us. And not all the jobs need to go. The base could still be used.


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TBF the whole point of Trident is to never use it. By not using it, it is doing its job.

It’s called the Deterrent for that very reason.

J

[Frankhfc]

This. Massive bargaining chip. Plus we would benefit from the collective protection that they give.

Win-win.

J

Not going to happen. Nicola's already stated the intention is for them to be ejected from Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

Not going to happen. Nicola's already stated the intention is for them to be ejected from Scotland.

I guess it will be up to the first Independently elected Scottish government to decide.

J

[The Modfather]

TBF the whole point of Trident is to never use it. By not using it, it is doing its job.

It’s called the Deterrent for that very reason.

J

Who or what is Trident deterring? What would be different if we didn’t have a nuclear deterrent? It’s more about ego and “status” than a practical deterrent IMO.

That’s a genuine question btw, as I’m not particularly knowledgeable about Trident. Perhaps too simplistically, short of a rogue terrorist attack akin to a series straight out of 24, I can’t ever envisage any country using it in any set of circumstances. Imagine what good the money it costs could do each year.

[Callum_62]

I don't buy this deterrent argument anyway

Didn't do Iraq any good when they supposedly had WMDs

In other news the Tories are SURGING in Scotland according to the express and a latest poll

I always say, never trust a paper that uses capitalisation in there headlines

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[Hibernia&Alba]

I don't buy this deterrent argument anyway

Didn't do Iraq any good when they supposedly had WMDs

In other news the Tories are SURGING in Scotland according to the express and a latest poll

I always say, never trust a paper that uses capitalisation in there headlines

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I think the deterrent argument is a nonsense. A deterrent against whom? Are we safer from nuclear attack than those countries which don't have nuclear weapons e.g. Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia etc? Of course not. It's a ridiculous argument to suggest we somehow have added security.

[Scorrie]

I think the deterrent argument is a nonsense. A deterrent against whom? Are we safer from nuclear attack than those countries which don't have nuclear weapons e.g. Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia etc? Of course not. It's a ridiculous argument to suggest we somehow have added security.

Spot on. The deterrent argument is complete nonsense. A waste of 120bn or however much it is.

[Smartie]

The nuclear weapons give us a seat at the big boys' table when certain decisions are being made.

Possibly not be sniffed at if you trust yourself to use that influence in a good way but we're talking about sending Boris on our behalf FFS.........

[Cataplana]

The nuclear weapons give us a seat at the big boys' table when certain decisions are being made.

Possibly not be sniffed at if you trust yourself to use that influence in a good way but we're talking about sending Boris on our behalf FFS.........

Countries like Holland, and the Scandinavians don't have that seat, but their citizens are better off than ours.

[Smartie]

Countries like Holland, and the Scandinavians don't have that seat, but their citizens are better off than ours.

I agree with you, I'm not a fan of nuclear weapons.

Just putting forward what is probably the most compelling reason for hanging onto them.

[Cataplana]

I agree with you, I'm not a fan of nuclear weapons.

Just putting forward what is probably the most compelling reason for hanging onto them.

And it's not very compelling at all, when you think about it.

[Smartie]

And it's not very compelling at all, when you think about it.

I don't know. Having at least one adult in the room whilst Donald Trump waves his tadger around might not be a bad thing at all (you could say the same about any number of other warmongers).

[Cataplana]

I don't know. Having at least one adult in the room whilst Donald Trump waves his tadger around might not be a bad thing at all (you could say the same about any number of other warmongers).

Wishful thinking, I feel. We are minor members of an ever expanding club. We have very little say.

[The Modfather]

The nuclear weapons give us a seat at the big boys' table when certain decisions are being made.

Possibly not be sniffed at if you trust yourself to use that influence in a good way but we're talking about sending Boris on our behalf FFS.........

I’m not sure Nuclear Weapons are a deal breaker to get us the seat at the big boys table. We’ll be involved in those kind discussions either way IMO, and won’t have any less sway than we do now in reality without nuclear weapons. If we were to use the billions Trident costs to grow the economy, invest in new technologies and renewable energy etc we may end up having bigger influence than through having something that sits invisible in the background and is actually a lead weight around the country as it won’t, and shouldn’t, ever be used.

Appreciate you’re merely putting forward a possible alternative argument rather than defending Trident.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't know. Having at least one adult in the room whilst Donald Trump waves his tadger around might not be a bad thing at all (you could say the same about any number of other warmongers).

The way to do that would surely be some sort of co-operative body where the European states could come together and agree a joint policy in our mutual interest. Not sure why nobody's thought of that before ... :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not sure Nuclear Weapons are a deal breaker to get us the seat at the big boys table. We’ll be involved in those kind discussions either way IMO, and won’t have any less sway than we do now in reality without nuclear weapons. If we were to use the billions Trident costs to grow the economy, invest in new technologies and renewable energy etc we may end up having bigger influence than through having something that sits invisible in the background and is actually a lead weight around the country as it won’t, and shouldn’t, ever be used.

Appreciate you’re merely putting forward a possible alternative argument rather than defending Trident.

They are one of, if not the most important, reasons the UK still has one of the 5 permanent seats (and a veto) on the UN security council. That, and a bluewater navy and a global strike capability and other things that haven't been sensible strategy for decades. A significant chunk of the UK establishment still thinks its defending the East India company, :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

I see what you are saying but the house itself doesn't use the services provided by the Council, the occupants do. 4 occupants will obviously create more rubbish to be taken away than a single occupancy household.

I live in a small hamlet with no footpaths, streetlighting, sewers, I don't have children at school but I contribute to all these services through the Council Tax.

A tax on property is not an equitable form of taxation because you might have a widow in a 4 bedroom house who pays the same as the 5 person household next door (less the single occupancy rebate)

All IMHO of course :wink:

Bring back the Poll Tax ...

[Hibernia&Alba]

The way to do that would surely be some sort of co-operative body where the European states could come together and agree a joint policy in our mutual interest. Not sure why nobody's thought of that before ... :rolleyes:

:top marks

[Moulin Yarns]

Bring back the Poll Tax ...

or...



Not really. Everyone was hit with the same amount in the poll tax, a personal tax which is related to the ability to pay is very different.

[Moulin Yarns]

Meanwhile at the Tory manifesto launch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWMSZXYaQ&feature=emb_logo

[Frankhfc]

Bring back the Poll Tax ...

The Greens policy is very similar to Thatcher's Poll Tax but it is different in implementation as its a sliding scale based upon earnings instead of a one size fits all tax sum.

[lapsedhibee]

Meanwhile at the Tory manifesto launch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWMSZXYaQ&feature=emb_logo

The slaverer's slaverer.

[Frankhfc]

I guess it will be up to the first Independently elected Scottish government to decide.

J

I disagree. There's not a hope in hell's chance of an Independent Scotland retaining foreign nuclear weapons of mass destruction either on our soil or in our sea no matter how much we were bribed to in my opinion.

[Moulin Yarns]

Meanwhile at the Tory manifesto launch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWMSZXYaQ&feature=emb_logo


The slaverer's slaverer.

For someone who "doesn't do twitter" Boris Johnson has over 2,700 tweets :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1198697894964060160

(watch to the end :greengrin)

[southsider]

https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1198697894964060160

(watch to the end :greengrin)

Brought a smile to my face on a drab day.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Bring back the Poll Tax ...

Never, but as I said earlier, a local income tax based upon earnings is the fairest way to raise local government funds. It works for central government, and we all accept it as the fairest method, so why don't we also use it for local services, instead of a bizarre property tax which throws up so many examples of unfairness?

[ballengeich]

Never, but as I said earlier, a local income tax based upon earnings is the fairest way to raise local government funds. It works for central government, and we all accept it as the fairest method, so why don't we also use it for local services, instead of a bizarre property tax which throws up so many examples of unfairness?

At national level we have taxes on wealth (capital gains, inheritance etc) in addition to income tax. I don't see why we can't develop a similar hybrid system locally. Some people gain far more than others through arbitrary differences in the rate of change in house prices so I see no objection to some level of tax on property. What you have when you sell a home or leave it to heirs can vary enormously so why shouldn't those with more (unrealised) , wealth pay a bit more?

The big change I'd like to see in local taxation is for far more to be raised locally rather than doled out from a central government pool. The block grant was originally intended to give poorer communities an equal chance to provide local services compared with the more wealthy, but it gradually expanded to become the major source of local government income. It would improve democratic accountability if local parties had to create a relationship between what they plan to do and how much tax they'll have to raise to achieve it.

[southsider]

Maybe but the wealthy will just use their fancy-dan accountants to worm their way out of paying their fair share.

[Frankhfc]

Maybe but the wealthy will just use their fancy-dan accountants to worm their way out of paying their fair share.

They can shift off to another country if that's the case but will have to leave their assets behind. We want real change in indy Scotland and anyone that thinks they can avoid paying their whack into the system can do one.

[Cataplana]

They can shift off to another country if that's the case but will have to leave their assets behind. We want real change in indy Scotland and anyone that thinks they can avoid paying their whack into the system can do one.

Then we will be no better off.

[Hibrandenburg]

Meanwhile at the Tory manifesto launch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWMSZXYaQ&feature=emb_logo

Manifesto summarised:

Brexit Labour Labour Labour Brexit trust us Labour Brexit Labour Sturgeon Brexit get it done Corbyn's Labour law and order Labour Brexit nurses yada yada yada.

[Hibernia&Alba]

At national level we have taxes on wealth (capital gains, inheritance etc) in addition to income tax. I don't see why we can't develop a similar hybrid system locally. Some people gain far more than others through arbitrary differences in the rate of change in house prices so I see no objection to some level of tax on property. What you have when you sell a home or leave it to heirs can vary enormously so why shouldn't those with more (unrealised) , wealth pay a bit more?

The big change I'd like to see in local taxation is for far more to be raised locally rather than doled out from a central government pool. The block grant was originally intended to give poorer communities an equal chance to provide local services compared with the more wealthy, but it gradually expanded to become the major source of local government income. It would improve democratic accountability if local parties had to create a relationship between what they plan to do and how much tax they'll have to raise to achieve it.

Me neither, but that's what inheritance tax is for. I prefer a local income tax for local government revenue. Some people will be asset rich, due to the increase in house prices, but cash poor. Taxing income is fairer, then; when a homeowner dies and leaves it to heirs, we have inheritance tax to address the issue you raise. A local income tax is also much more accurate than the house valuation bands we have with council tax, whereby people with vastly different resources can pay the same.

[lapsedhibee]

Me neither, but that's what inheritance tax is for. I prefer a local income tax for local government revenue. Some people will be asset rich, due to the increase in house prices, but cash poor. Taxing income is fairer, then; when a homeowner dies and leaves it to heirs, we have inheritance tax to address the issue you raise. A local income tax is also much more accurate than the house valuation bands we have with council tax, whereby people with vastly different resources can pay the same.

Inheritance Tax as currently operated has its own unfairnesses. Heavily skewed against unmarried people, and against people without children, for example.

[Future17]

Me neither, but that's what inheritance tax is for. I prefer a local income tax for local government revenue. Some people will be asset rich, due to the increase in house prices, but cash poor. Taxing income is fairer, then; when a homeowner dies and leaves it to heirs, we have inheritance tax to address the issue you raise. A local income tax is also much more accurate than the house valuation bands we have with council tax, whereby people with vastly different resources can pay the same.

It's possible (and increasingly common) for people with high-value residential properties to make arrangements to significantly reduce the liability on their estates in relation to inheritance tax; at certain levels, the liability can be removed altogether.

There is also the indirectly related difficulty of people occupying homes which are far larger than they require, which causes all sorts of knock-on problems.

I think a "fair" system of local resident taxation would have to take account of the full asset picture, not just income.