General election 2019

[Northernhibee]

The SNP didn’t vote for it on Boris’s terms. That was Labour.


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Revisionism at its finest. Labour changed their position after it became clear that the SNP and Lib Dems were going to accept Boris' offer of an election. They had declined the day before and ended up having to change overnight. Guaranteed the SNP-can't-do-no-wrong brigade will be along soon which will be swiftly ignored.

[Ozyhibby]

Only chance for remain now is a deal between Labour and Libs in about 60 seats. It would help both parties and should be a no brainer but it won’t happen.


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[SHODAN]

Only chance for remain now is a deal between Labour and Libs in about 60 seats. It would help both parties and should be a no brainer but it won’t happen.


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:agree:

Swinson's a Tory. She doesn't want Labour to win.

[marinello59]

It's not good but it's not as bad as it might have been.

They're not standing against sitting Tory MPs but they *are* standing in seats the Tories are trying to take off Labour. It's widely thought that the Tories will lose seats to the SNP and the Libs in SW England, so to get a majority they have to make significant gains in Labour territory.

That's how I see it. This does not help the Tories win the seats they really have to win.

[Frankhfc]

It's not good but it's not as bad as it might have been.

They're not standing against sitting Tory MPs but they *are* standing in seats the Tories are trying to take off Labour. It's widely thought that the Tories will lose seats to the SNP and the Libs in SW England, so to get a majority they have to make significant gains in Labour territory.

I agree.

Its too difficult to precisely forecast how this election will end up just now. A hung parliament is still favourite in my book however Farage has certainly increased the chances of a tory majority with this call. Won't adversely affect the Scottish vote though.

[Mon Dieu4]

Also to the Lib Dems and SNP - this is why you don't go for an election on Boris' terms.

The SNP will gain seats, once again showing they have a mandate for another Indepedence referendum, Brexit will more than likely go through alienating more Scottish voters from Westminster, I can see exactly why the SNP voted for it and I'd have done the same

[Northernhibee]

The SNP will gain seats, once again showing they have a mandate for another Indepedence referendum, Brexit will more than likely go through alienating more Scottish voters from Westminster, I can see exactly why the SNP voted for it and I'd have done the same

Truthfully I'm voting SNP to keep the Tories out but if that's their reasoning (stir things up in favour of an independence referendum that the Tories are unlikely to grant, **** the rest of those in the UK who have to live through a hard Brexit) then that's pretty indefensible.

[Mon Dieu4]

Truthfully I'm voting SNP to keep the Tories out but if that's their reasoning (stir things up in favour of an independence referendum that the Tories are unlikely to grant, **** the rest of those in the UK who have to live through a hard Brexit) then that's pretty indefensible.

They will never admit it but of course that's why they are doing it, as I said I'd have done it too, we each vote for people who will look after our interests, the rest of the UK has the chance to vote the Tories out

[Cataplana]

Farage has bottled it, making it easier for the tories.

His last chance to appear relevant. He really is yesterday's man.

[Fife-Hibee]

Why is anybody surprised? Farage IS a Tory.

[Fife-Hibee]

Truthfully I'm voting SNP to keep the Tories out but if that's their reasoning (stir things up in favour of an independence referendum that the Tories are unlikely to grant, **** the rest of those in the UK who have to live through a hard Brexit) then that's pretty indefensible.

What do you think the narrative would have been if the SNP had voted down this election?

[southsider]

This election is already shaping up to be brutal. The tories will do anything to get elected and force Brexit on us. The GMB 'doctored' interview by Reid with Kier Stamer was a unbelievable. He appeared to falter, could not answer question etc when nothing was further from the truth. The tories doctored the whole thing to make him look like a fool. If he was leader Labour might stand a chance.

[Jack]

Truthfully I'm voting SNP to keep the Tories out but if that's their reasoning (stir things up in favour of an independence referendum that the Tories are unlikely to grant, **** the rest of those in the UK who have to live through a hard Brexit) then that's pretty indefensible.

It would seem from their voting patterns that a hard Brexit is exactly what they want!

I can't say I have any issues with Scotland going it's own way in the circumstances.

[cabbageandribs1875]

This election is already shaping up to be brutal. The tories will do anything to get elected and force Brexit on us. The GMB 'doctored' interview by Reid with Kier Stamer was a unbelievable. He appeared to falter, could not answer question etc when nothing was further from the truth. The tories doctored the whole thing to make him look like a fool. If he was leader Labour might stand a chance.


Andrew Neil also retweeted a doctored ian blackford video, although he later deleted it and apologised the seeds of doubt had already been planted, the "impartial" BBC do this a lot...bad SNP only to be forced into a groveling apology for getting their facts wrong

[Fife-Hibee]

Andrew Neil also retweeted a doctored ian blackford video, although he later deleted it and apologised the seeds of doubt had already been planted, the "impartial" BBC do this a lot...bad SNP only to be forced into a groveling apology for getting their facts wrong

That’s exactly what they do. They present misinformation when their viewing figures are at their highest, then a small obscure ‘mandatory’ apology when their viewing figures are at their lowest. The BBC would give Fox News a run for its money. But at least their money comes from private sources rather than a public tax.

[StevieC]

It's not good but it's not as bad as it might have been.

They're not standing against sitting Tory MPs but they *are* standing in seats the Tories are trying to take off Labour. It's widely thought that the Tories will lose seats to the SNP and the Libs in SW England, so to get a majority they have to make significant gains in Labour territory.

You don’t think that they are more likely to get votes from Brexit supporting Labour voters than Tory voters?

[Fife-Hibee]

https://tinyurl.com/yhor52bv

Can't wait for more Chinese firms to step in and buy over what's left of our industries. They won't have those pesky EU workers rights laws to worry about. :rolleyes:

[Mibbes Aye]

You don’t think that they are more likely to get votes from Brexit supporting Labour voters than Tory voters?

I read some academic stuff that was quite technical and stat-heavy, but they made a couple of valid points I thought (it was a bunch of professors from various universities, who collaborate on election studies).

Firstly, it appears (emphasis on ‘appears’) that some leave voting Labour voters have switched to Remain. It is almost impossible to quantify very, very accurately though, but even a few percentage points is significant if true.

The second point was that the Labour seats that voted Leave were voting Leave as a consequence of a lot of Conservative voters, some previously unengaged voters and some Labour voters. Their argument was that the narrative about Remain Labour MPs not wanting to let down those who had elected them was a fallacy to some extent. They weren’t beholden to non-Labour voters either ( although obviously there is the counter-argument about whether they should respect the view of the whole constituency, but that has never been the case before - MPs are not expected to carry out plebiscites on every single HoC vote).

The overall suggestion, backed by reasonable data, was that even in the most ardent Leave constituencies, the Labour vote was overwhelmingly for Remain. That rings true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Labour, to my mind, is instinctively Remain,apart from the rump still fighting the Benn Wars. Secondly, while Momentum can be criticised for a lot of things, they have a membership that I suspect is majority Remain, which has an influence to some degree.

[JeMeSouviens]

You don’t think that they are more likely to get votes from Brexit supporting Labour voters than Tory voters?

They tend to disproportionately take voters from the Tories.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-brexit-party-is-a-threat-to-boris-johnson-not-jeremy-corbyn-heres-why

[Frankhfc]

I read some academic stuff that was quite technical and stat-heavy, but they made a couple of valid points I thought (it was a bunch of professors from various universities, who collaborate on election studies).

Firstly, it appears (emphasis on ‘appears’) that some leave voting Labour voters have switched to Remain. It is almost impossible to quantify very, very accurately though, but even a few percentage points is significant if true.

The second point was that the Labour seats that voted Leave were voting Leave as a consequence of a lot of Conservative voters, some previously unengaged voters and some Labour voters. Their argument was that the narrative about Remain Labour MPs not wanting to let down those who had elected them was a fallacy to some extent. They weren’t beholden to non-Labour voters either ( although obviously there is the counter-argument about whether they should respect the view of the whole constituency, but that has never been the case before - MPs are not expected to carry out plebiscites on every single HoC vote).

The overall suggestion, backed by reasonable data, was that even in the most ardent Leave constituencies, the Labour vote was overwhelmingly for Remain. That rings true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Labour, to my mind, is instinctively Remain,apart from the rump still fighting the Benn Wars. Secondly, while Momentum can be criticised for a lot of things, they have a membership that I suspect is majority Remain, which has an influence to some degree.

Interesting post.

It will be the most fascinating aspect of the GE in my opinion - whether the hard core Labour vote holds up, doesn't turn out or switches party altogether? Its what'll determine the decisive outcome of the GE.

[G B Young]

It's not good but it's not as bad as it might have been.

They're not standing against sitting Tory MPs but they *are* standing in seats the Tories are trying to take off Labour. It's widely thought that the Tories will lose seats to the SNP and the Libs in SW England, so to get a majority they have to make significant gains in Labour territory.

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Brexit Party end up standing down quite a few more candidates and focus primarily on the leave constituencies where traditional Labour voters would view switching to the Tories as a step too far.

In fact I see that since Farage's announcement they've also agreed not to stand in Brecon, which was won by the Lib Dems in this year's by-election.

[Mibbes Aye]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Brexit Party end up standing down quite a few more candidates and focus primarily on the leave constituencies where traditional Labour voters would view switching to the Tories as a step too far.

In fact I see that since Farage's announcement they've also agreed not to stand in Brecon, which was won by the Lib Dems in this year's by-election.

I see your point and if we have learnt anything from the last ten years it is that old orthodoxies are there to be overturned.

Saying that, I just don’t see a mass desertion of Labour Leave voters to the Brexit Party. I think the last three years, from their point of view, will have acted as a wake-up call about what is at risk. 2016 was a protest, a demonstration of dissatisfaction. While Corbyn has singularly failed to lead, the reality of what Brexit means has kicked in.

The momentum (if you will excuse the pun) in Labour is from Leave to Remain. As posted earlier, Labour always had a majority of Remain voters, even in the most committed Leave seats.

[Ozyhibby]

I see your point and if we have learnt anything from the last ten years it is that old orthodoxies are there to be overturned.

Saying that, I just don’t see a mass desertion of Labour Leave voters to the Brexit Party. I think the last three years, from their point of view, will have acted as a wake-up call about what is at risk. 2016 was a protest, a demonstration of dissatisfaction. While Corbyn has singularly failed to lead, the reality of what Brexit means has kicked in.

The momentum (if you will excuse the pun) in Labour is from Leave to Remain. As posted earlier, Labour always had a majority of Remain voters, even in the most committed Leave seats.

The Labour base is reasonably secure. It’s the middle class labour voters that will be missing and that won’t change until Corbyn is gone.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The Labour base is reasonably secure. It’s the middle class labour voters that will be missing and that won’t change until Corbyn is gone.


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Oh I agree with that. They will go to the LibDems rather than Brexit Party obviously.

[Frankhfc]

The Labour base is reasonably secure. It’s the middle class labour voters that will be missing and that won’t change until Corbyn is gone.


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I'm not quite as convinced as you are. A decade or more ago the same could have been said for Labour Scotland where the votes could be weighed rather than counted. Look at the state of them now. Its definitely the most interesting conundrum of the GE. If the Labour strongholds break from tradition it'll be a hard task to win them back over again at future elections. It'll be the most fascinating aspect of the GE in my opinion.

[G B Young]

Farage hints at further 'stand-downs' according to tomorrow's FT:

https://www.hibs.net/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7https://www.hibs.net/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2019/11/11/8c2a8b59-740a-47a4-935b-75478fd99989.jpg

[G B Young]

Nick Boles goes in two-footed on both Johnson and Corbyn:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/appalling-choice-contest-must-start-the-process-of-building-something-new-a4283876.html

[Ozyhibby]

Nick Boles goes in two-footed on both Johnson and Corbyn:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/appalling-choice-contest-must-start-the-process-of-building-something-new-a4283876.html

He’s not wrong. It’s a terrible choice for people in England.


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[Fife-Hibee]

He’s not wrong. It’s a terrible choice for people in England.


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At least it's a choice. A choice in which the result will be forced upon us, yet again.

[Ozyhibby]

Ian Murray ditches Labour.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-south-mp-candidate-ian-murray-releases-campaign-leaflet-almost-no-mention-labour-party-920671


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[cabbageandribs1875]

good piece on the Fib Dems leader swinson in the DR https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/jo-swinson-much-going-look-20848645?fbclid=IwAR31scek7367AuOAPJ89VFWGNXPU6549-FHf4fZx3U6qanjrat37ko59DbA


Swinson voted against a tax on bankers’ bonuses, against an increase in tax on high earners and in favour of reducing corporation tax, all while supporting zero-hour contracts.
She claims to have “campaigned tirelessly to save our environment” and even joined street protests by Extinction Rebellion.


But she has accepted donations totalling £14,000 from businessman Mark Petterson, director of an energy firm with fracking licences across England. She also voted against a moratorium on the controversial gas extraction method.
And now she’s a “Revoker”, insisting that election of a Lib Dem government standing on a ticket of repealing Article 50 would be a mandate for tearing up the result of the 2016 referendum. But she’ll block any moves for IndyRef2, even if the SNP win the most seats, because she doesn’t like that particular mandate.


the woman couldn't spell Democracy

[Pretty Boy]

Ian Murray ditches Labour.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-south-mp-candidate-ian-murray-releases-campaign-leaflet-almost-no-mention-labour-party-920671


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Same path he followed last time. An idea favoured by Jeremy Corbyn in Islington during the New Labour years as well.

[CloudSquall]

Ian Murray ditches Labour.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-south-mp-candidate-ian-murray-releases-campaign-leaflet-almost-no-mention-labour-party-920671


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"In conversation with Ian Murray" :faf:

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/catrinnye/status/1194160536763731968?s=21
https://twitter.com/catrinnye/status/1194159774256058368?s=21


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679.amp?fbclid=IwAR0wCpIysDCGXNtOK2FWRPDOmVBd uzIF5_rjrVHgkviDDWIg12CaDAa-i5w&__twitter_impression=true

SNP need to offer to protect 65 as retirement age.


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[RyeSloan]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679.amp?fbclid=IwAR0wCpIysDCGXNtOK2FWRPDOmVBd uzIF5_rjrVHgkviDDWIg12CaDAa-i5w&__twitter_impression=true

SNP need to offer to protect 65 as retirement age.


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Old news that’s no parties policy.

As it is the retirement age is already 67 for anyone born after 1961.

The age is rising as life expectancy rises...otherwise it becomes completely unaffordable.

Any idea on how the SNP would be able to pay for cutting the retirement age and why they should do so when every other major economy in the world is going in the opposite direction?

[Ozyhibby]

Old news that’s no parties policy.

As it is the retirement age is already 67 for anyone born after 1961.

The age is rising as life expectancy rises...otherwise it becomes completely unaffordable.

Any idea on how the SNP would be able to pay for cutting the retirement age and why they should do so when every other major economy in the world is going in the opposite direction?

It’s a political point as far as the next Yes campaign is concerned. Doesn’t matter how it’s paid for (think big red bus). SNP need an in to older voters who are more attached to the union. This is a perfect issue. Gordon Brown made much of the pension issue in last campaign. This gives Yes a perfect opportunity to reverse that.


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[southsider]

Old news that’s no parties policy.

As it is the retirement age is already 67 for anyone born after 1961.

The age is rising as life expectancy rises...otherwise it becomes completely unaffordable.

Any idea on how the SNP would be able to pay for cutting the retirement age and why they should do so when every other major economy in the world is going in the opposite direction?
How on earth is a man in construction expected to still be on the tools at 70 never mind 75. Years of heavy work takes its toll. Give the work to the young and let us have the last years with a bit of dignity.

[JeMeSouviens]

Speaking of uncosted policies, this strikes me as the sort of thing you can bandy around only when you've given up the faintest hope of ever winning an election in Scotland again:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJH05rDXsAIlPck?format=jpg&name=medium

[Bristolhibby]

How on earth is a man in construction expected to still be on the tools at 70 never mind 75. Years of heavy work takes its toll. Give the work to the young and let us have the last years with a bit of dignity.

They can’t. So the builder needs to be squirreling away cash el rapido rather than going on a lads trip to Ibiza or he will be an old poor 75 year old. We as a society need to also be prioritising Public Spending into the Pension pot for all us older people when we eventually get old.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

They can’t. So the builder needs to be squirreling away cash el rapido rather than going on a lads trip to Ibiza or he will be an old poor 75 year old. We as a society need to also be prioritising Public Spending into the Pension pot for all us older people when we eventually get old.

J

Agreed, except that there is no pot. Pensions aren't saved. Taxpayers now are paying the pensions of OAPs now. If we want to have ok pensions when we're OAPs then we need a large enough working age population to support us. Which means encouraging immigration or a miracle turnaround in birth rate.

[Cataplana]

How on earth is a man in construction expected to still be on the tools at 70 never mind 75. Years of heavy work takes its toll. Give the work to the young and let us have the last years with a bit of dignity.

The only way I can make sense of it is that people are healthier now than when the pension age was originally set. Improved diet, living conditions and health care all mean that the average 65 year old is much more active than they were 100 years ago.

I'm sure there are also less physical jobs that you can move to as you get older. My job involves a lot of physical work, and I doubt if I'll still be doing it by the time I retire.

[southsider]

They can’t. So the builder needs to be squirreling away cash el rapido rather than going on a lads trip to Ibiza or he will be an old poor 75 year old. We as a society need to also be prioritising Public Spending into the Pension pot for all us older people when we eventually get old.

J
By the time I come to retire I will have paid into the system for close on 50 years. You pay your stamp (now NI) and the state looks after you in later life. This sounds like one of Duncan-Smiths ideas. Keep them working until 75 and we won’t have to pay pensions coz they’ll all be dead.

[JeMeSouviens]

New poll from Survation possibly showing fptp squeeze starting to take effect:

Conservatives 35% (+1)
Labour 29% (+3)
Lib Dems 17% (-2)
Brexit Party 10% (-2)

Survation surveyed 2,037 people online between Nov. 6 and 8.

[Ozyhibby]

New poll from Survation possibly showing fptp squeeze starting to take effect:

Conservatives 35% (+1)
Labour 29% (+3)
Lib Dems 17% (-2)
Brexit Party 10% (-2)

Survation surveyed 2,037 people online between Nov. 6 and 8.

And Com res.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191112/2c20b22a566ab13e38c1a8beb8a40ea2.jpg


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[RyeSloan]

It’s a political point as far as the next Yes campaign is concerned. Doesn’t matter how it’s paid for (think big red bus). SNP need an in to older voters who are more attached to the union. This is a perfect issue. Gordon Brown made much of the pension issue in last campaign. This gives Yes a perfect opportunity to reverse that.


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So who cares if it’s affordable or deliverable but hey it’s a great policy to campaign on?

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking into the numbers a bit in that Survation poll.

Of 2016 Leave - 58% are now Tory, 18% Brex, only 13% Lab, 3% Lib
Remain - 43% Lab, 30% Lib, Tory 14% Brex 1%

Of the massive Euro election Brexit vote, 71% are now off to the Tories. They really have become the New Brexit party.

The great unknowable is how much of the Lib/Lab vote is tactically distributed. If it is, game on. If not, ****.

btw, the Scottish subsample (very small sample so huge possible sampling error but JFF): SNP 46 Tory 22 Lab 12 Lib 11 That's SNP 50 seat territory.

[Fife-Hibee]

So who cares if it’s affordable or deliverable but hey it’s a great policy to campaign on?

Yep, who cares. It's how Better Together operated. "If you vote NO, we'll give you this, that and the next thing."

Until of course we actually voted NO, then it all went up in a puff of smoke.

If it gets old people voting YES, then i'm all for it, even if it is a load of nonsense.

[Ozyhibby]

So who cares if it’s affordable or deliverable but hey it’s a great policy to campaign on?

It can be both affordable and deliverable if the political will is there. Our pensions are far behind most of the rest of Europe as it is.
My point was that it’s important for the SNP to state that the political will is there in an independent Scotland to protect the pension age.
We were constantly told that free university education was unaffordable and yet here we are, 20+ years after they were introduced in England and it’s still free here.
The last indyref campaign was not bold enough. If SNP decide they want to keep the age as it is, they can and it will be a huge draw for an independent Scotland. They would be mad not take it.


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[Smartie]

So who cares if it’s affordable or deliverable but hey it’s a great policy to campaign on?

We're being taken out of the EU in a bull**** spattered bus.

This seems to be the way politics operates, rather than sticking forward detailed plans for folk to pick apart the SNP might be best served learning from what seems to be effective campaigning these days.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Greens stepping aside in chingford to try help labour unseat that **** IDS

[Ozyhibby]

We're being taken out of the EU in a bull**** spattered bus.

This seems to be the way politics operates, rather than sticking forward detailed plans for folk to pick apart the SNP might be best served learning from what seems to be effective campaigning these days.

Yip, no point showing up with a knife to a gun fight.


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[Bangkok Hibby]

Greens stepping aside in chingford to try help labour unseat that **** IDS

I hope they do it. As I've said many times I despise "most" Tories with every fibre of my being. The rest are just ****s. This ****er however is one of the most evil of them all, hiding behind a veneer of calm, measured demeanor.

[Slavers]

We're being taken out of the EU in a bull**** spattered bus.

This seems to be the way politics operates, rather than sticking forward detailed plans for folk to pick apart the SNP might be best served learning from what seems to be effective campaigning these days.

It's only ever remoaners that mention the bus. Never once have I heard anyone seeking UK independence saying that the bus was reason they voted for UK Independence.

[RyeSloan]

We're being taken out of the EU in a bull**** spattered bus.

This seems to be the way politics operates, rather than sticking forward detailed plans for folk to pick apart the SNP might be best served learning from what seems to be effective campaigning these days.

Cool that’s clear enough....let’s encourage all campaign promises to be complete bull sh it to make sure people vote for it!

And as long as the bull supports my preferred outcome then what’s the problem.

Glad we have that cleared up!

[Peevemor]

It's only ever remoaners that mention the bus. Never once have I heard anyone seeking UK independence saying that the bus was reason they voted for UK Independence.

Remoaners?

[lapsedhibee]

Remoaners?

It's Brexiters' only joke, let them have it. Unless you count the one about the pillarbox people.

[Slavers]

Remoaners?

Yes people that have moaned about the referendum result since it was announced.

[Peevemor]

Yes people that have moaned about the referendum result since it was announced.

Being the vast majority in Scotland...

[Fife-Hibee]

Yes people that have moaned about the referendum result since it was announced.

So Scotland is a country of moaners rather than slavers?

I'll take that. :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

It's only ever remoaners that mention the bus. Never once have I heard anyone seeking UK independence saying that the bus was reason they voted for UK Independence.

You just think it was an accident that the slickest voter targeting operation in history made promises they never intended to keep about NHS funding?

Would you like to buy a bridge at all? :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

Being the vast majority in Scotland...

I'd say the vast majority in Scotland accept the result knowing it was UK referendum. It's mostly just those who seek Scottish independence that are stoking up the greviences on this.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'd say the vast majority in Scotland accept the result knowing it was UK referendum. It's mostly just those who seek Scottish independence that are stoking up the greviences on this.

Yep. I'm sure all those EU migrants that voted "NO" are happy just to sit back and accept the result, come what may for them.

[Peevemor]

I'd say the vast majority in Scotland accept the result knowing it was UK referendum. It's mostly just those who seek Scottish independence that are stoking up the greviences on this.

Which is it? Make up your mind.

[JeMeSouviens]

Meta-analysis of the tactical voting sites:

https://jonworth.eu/2019-uk-general-election-tactical-voting-guide/

[Ozyhibby]

I'd say the vast majority in Scotland accept the result knowing it was UK referendum. It's mostly just those who seek Scottish independence that are stoking up the greviences on this.

Vast majority? I really don’t think so.


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[Fife-Hibee]

If it's a "vast majority" as slavers claims. Then Scotland can expect to send a vast majority of tory MPs back to Westminster in this election.

Somehow I can't see it though.

[Smartie]

Cool that’s clear enough....let’s encourage all campaign promises to be complete bull sh it to make sure people vote for it!

And as long as the bull supports my preferred outcome then what’s the problem.

Glad we have that cleared up!

Politics is a dirty business these days, I don't see much point in moaning about fair play after having lost.

The Tories are covering up damaging Russian links so there is no shortage of dubious stuff going on.

I suppose there is an argument to be had regarding "the ends justifying the means" on this occasion.

Maybe the SNP should attempt to budget for a bribe like this? We're going to have to tighten our belts in post-Brexit Britain, most of us are agreed that there will be less to go round (certainly in Scotland). If the SNP are serious about remaining in the EU post-independence, and that this situation would see us better off than being in the UK but not the EU (which appears to me to be very much their position) then maybe they should think of a way to make the numbers work, if a few extra older folk being on board were to be likely to tip the balance in any referendum?

[Northernhibee]

It's only ever remoaners that mention the bus. Never once have I heard anyone seeking UK independence saying that the bus was reason they voted for UK Independence.

So what WERE your reasons for voting to be significantly poorer?

[Moulin Yarns]

It's only ever remoaners that mention the bus. Never once have I heard anyone seeking UK independence saying that the bus was reason they voted for UK Independence.

Because you're too embarrassed 🇬🇧😁

[CloudSquall]

Latest YouGov poll, a bit of a squeese starting on Nigel and Jo,

CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 28% (+2)
LDEM: 15% (-2)
BREX: 4% (-6)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @YouGov (https://twitter.com/YouGov), 11 - 12 Nov
Chgs. w/ 08 Nov.

[Future17]

I'm not following this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50395737

He agrees that the Brexit Party shouldn't stand candidates against the Tories in Scotland, but disagrees with the same decision in the rest of the UK. In protest, he's refusing to stand against the Tories in Scotland...which is in line with party policy and which he agrees with. :confused:

[SHODAN]

I'm not following this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50395737

He agrees that the Brexit Party shouldn't stand candidates against the Tories in Scotland, but disagrees with the same decision in the rest of the UK. In protest, he's refusing to stand against the Tories in Scotland...which is in line with party policy and which he agrees with. :confused:

I've got about the same chance of winning Glasgow NE as either the Tories or the BP do. Maybe he just didn't fancy a pointless campaign.

[Fife-Hibee]

Incredible....
https://twitter.com/IsaacDoel/status/1194223864202645504

[CloudSquall]

Incredible....
https://twitter.com/IsaacDoel/status/1194223864202645504

Beyond parody..

I saw another tweet from a Lib Dem saying the idea of no tuition fees was fantasy, he might want to check in regarding Scotland and the rest of Northern Europe regarding that.

Even in the larger European countries (as far as I know) no one is paying anywhere near 9k tuition for bog standard degrees.

[wpj]

Tory party broadcast, WTF? Did you get it in Scotland? If not Google it, it's a shocker!

[CloudSquall]

Tory party broadcast, WTF? Did you get it in Scotland? If not Google it, it's a shocker!

https://mobile.twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1194320833977733123


Oh dear god...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tory party broadcast, WTF? Did you get it in Scotland? If not Google it, it's a shocker!

Bizarre stuff: marmite, cooking, The Clash! The idea of a Tory prime minister being a big Clash fan is a bit odd :greengrin

[wpj]

Bizarre stuff: marmite, cooking, The Clash! The idea of a Tory prime minister being a big Clash fan is a bit odd :greengrin

It's a gift for Have I Got News For You. It reminds of the toe curling Apprentice presentations.

[Slavers]

So what WERE your reasons for voting to be significantly poorer?

Well for one I don't think I will be significantly poorer.

[Fife-Hibee]

Well for one I don't think I will be significantly poorer.

Just the country on a whole eh. As long as you're alright.

[danhibees1875]

Well for one I don't think I will be significantly poorer.

On a world scale, given the fall in £ value, are we not already in a position of being poorer?

That's before it all even really kicks off too.

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/toadmeister/status/1193553305089253378

"Vote Labour, lose Scotland"


Deary ****ing me, this is what it's come to..

[Ozyhibby]

https://mobile.twitter.com/toadmeister/status/1193553305089253378

"Vote Labour, lose Scotland"


Deary ****ing me, this is what it's come to..

It appears they think Scotland belongs to them.


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[Smartie]

I can’t help but think poor Joe Strummer is spinning in a grave somewhere.

[G B Young]

Bizarre stuff: marmite, cooking, The Clash! The idea of a Tory prime minister being a big Clash fan is a bit odd :greengrin

I remember hearing him on Desert Island Discs quite a number of years ago and being surprised when he chose a Clash track. Can't remember which one but it wasn't an obvious choice like London Calling, Should I Stay or Should I Go or I Fought the Law. Might have been the Prisoner or Pressure Drop.

Edit (from 2007):

Boris appears to actually be a fan of the band. When he was on Desert Island Discs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/desertislanddiscs_20051030.shtml), he picked one of their lesser-known tracks, their B-side bound cover of Toots and the Maytals' Pressure Drop to play under his palm tree.

[G B Young]

I can’t help but think poor Joe Strummer is spinning in a grave somewhere.

Quite a few 'posh' punks back in the day. Strummer himself was a public schoolboy son a diplomat and I think Television met at boarding school. Some even had right-wing leanings. While Paul Weller subsequently described his claim that the Jam were going to vote Conservative as tongue in cheek, Johnny Ramone was a staunch Republican (I recall him concluding the Ramones' inauguration in the the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame with 'God bless President Bush') and Iggy Pop voted Reagan.

[JeMeSouviens]

It appears they think Scotland belongs to them.


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They’re also nailing on losing indyref2.

[marinello59]

Quite a few 'posh' punks back in the day. Strummer himself was a public schoolboy son a diplomat and I think Television met at boarding school. Some even had right-wing leanings. While Paul Weller subsequently described his claim that the Jam were going to vote Conservative as tongue in cheek, Johnny Ramone was a staunch Republican (I recall him concluding the Ramones' inauguration in the the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame with 'God bless President Bush') and Iggy Pop voted Reagan.

“They wear Burtons suits, they think it’s funny, turning rebellion in to money.”

Strummer ripping in to the Jam. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Well for one I don't think I will be significantly poorer.

Don't you mean for you everything will be brexs hitter?

[ballengeich]

I remember hearing him on Desert Island Discs quite a number of years ago and being surprised when he chose a Clash track. Can't remember which one but it wasn't an obvious choice like London Calling, Should I Stay or Should I Go or I Fought the Law. Might have been the Prisoner or Pressure Drop.

Edit (from 2007):

Boris appears to actually be a fan of the band. When he was on Desert Island Discs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/desertislanddiscs_20051030.shtml), he picked one of their lesser-known tracks, their B-side bound cover of Toots and the Maytals' Pressure Drop to play under his palm tree.

So in claiming to be a fan he was telling the truth! That's the real shock.

[Ozyhibby]

David Gauke standing as an independent. Smart thing would be for Labour, Lib Dem’s and Greens to stand down in that seat. He is the only one with half a chance of winning that seat.


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[Colr]

How **** is de Pfeffel’s campaign so far?

[lapsedhibee]

How **** is de Pfeffel’s campaign so far?

Too early to say. If the campaign strategy is Keep Repeating A Three Word Slogan Until You Win, it might be going quite well. And he's won over Ni-gel, Ni-gel with his smooth talk. If he can get the Mail to splash some speculation that Corbyn's DNA might have some elements similar to Stalin's, he's probably home and dry.

[Colr]

Too early to say. If the campaign strategy is Keep Repeating A Three Word Slogan Until You Win, it might be going quite well. And he's won over Ni-gel, Ni-gel with his smooth talk. If he can get the Mail to splash some speculation that Corbyn's DNA might have some elements similar to Stalin's, he's probably home and dry.

Rory Walks type videos work well for the lanky ball of energy that Stewart is but de Pfeffel’s are more Boris Bumbles!!

[lapsedhibee]

Rory Walks type videos work well for the lanky ball of energy that Stewart is but de Pfeffel’s are more Boris Bumbles!!
Showing his human side. Like the lying. Very human. Only humans lie.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/peoplesmomentum/status/1194221297603088386?s=21
Fair play, it’s quite funny.[emoji106]


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[Smartie]

How **** is de Pfeffel’s campaign so far?

It’s dreadful, but in all honesty I’m yet to see or hear anything from anyone at Labour that looks or sounds remotely credible so it wouldn’t surprise me if they cruised it.

Farage was always going to be their biggest threat, so if they’ve neutralised him then I suppose that are well on their way.

[southsider]

So what WERE your reasons for voting to be significantly poorer?

For YES to win indyRef2 we need to attract older people imho. How much would free TV licences for all pensioners cost. Not that much in the grand scheme of things I would suggest.

[Ozyhibby]

For YES to win indyRef2 we need to attract older people imho. How much would free TV licences for all pensioners cost. Not that much in the grand scheme of things I would suggest.

Not much but wouldn’t move many votes either. And the BBC would stop at the border after independence anyway.[emoji6]
The pension offer is the big one and would be a big consideration for people. That could move a massive amount of votes into the Yes column.


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[mjhibby]

Latest YouGov poll, a bit of a squeese starting on Nigel and Jo,

CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 28% (+2)
LDEM: 15% (-2)
BREX: 4% (-6)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @YouGov (https://twitter.com/YouGov)[COLOR=#14171A], 11 - 12 Nov
Chgs. w/ 08 Nov.[/CA

Another poll shows the Tories only 5 points ahead. I would discount any poll in the express and the mail. The questions they ask are loaded to make Johnson seem popular.The likes of Aaron banks wouldn't be asking farage to only stand in a few marginals if the Tories were home and dry. The ridiculous Keir starmer video and the massive demonisation of Corbyn shows the Tories know its a lot tighter than the polls are predicting. May had an average lead of 16 points ahead at roughly this time and Johnson is averaging 10. It's not an election where you can read into poll results and predict the no of seats. I'd love Johnson to miss a majority by ten or so and the dup will lose around 4 seats meaning the blond buffoon wouldn't be able to form a govt. John curtice has again stated the lib Dems will far outperform their current polls. We shall see. If it's about brexit he won't win a majority.

[ronaldo7]

For YES to win indyRef2 we need to attract older people imho. How much would free TV licences for all pensioners cost. Not that much in the grand scheme of things I would suggest.

Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍

[Frankhfc]

They’re also nailing on losing indyref2.

I think the rest of the UK is slowly but surely coming round to that idea anyway and are in the very early stages of planning for it. The mood music seems to me to be heading in that direction.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the rest of the UK is slowly but surely coming round to that idea anyway and are in the very early stages of planning for it. The mood music seems to me to be heading in that direction.

The attitude of England towards Scottish independence will be very different in indyref2. It will move from bemusement last time out to ‘just F off’ next time.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/d2c05e0931472959174461477b9cad62.jpg


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[Frankhfc]

The attitude of England towards Scottish independence will be very different in indyref2. It will move from bemusement last time out to ‘just F off’ next time.


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There'll be a wide range of views across the rest of the UK but I do agree that in general more people would be inclined to shrug their shoulders and could be much more receptive for Scotland leaving the UK and to go its own way next time around.

[Smartie]

Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍

Also, why would old folk bother about the age you get your pension? Surely that's of more interest to those who are yet to reach that age than those who are already in, those who might be happier to pull the ladder up once there and have more folk contributing to their pensions?

[Peevemor]

Also, why would old folk bother about the age you get your pension? Surely that's of more interest to those who are yet to reach that age than those who are already in, those who might be happier to pull the ladder up once there and have more folk contributing to their pensions?

Those, like myself, born in the 60s baby boom are now arriving at a stage in life where retirement isn't just something that happens to other people.

[Smartie]

Those, like myself, born in the 60s baby boom are now arriving at a stage in life where retirement isn't just something that happens to other people.

I appreciate that, so I can understand why the age at which you receive your pension will be an emotive subject for your demographic (a demographic who admittedly the SNP have failed to convince so far).

Your demographic is a different one to the one I was thinking of - those who are already pensioners - who are overwhelmingly against independence. We might need to come up with a different bribe for them.......

It is interesting that going by age, those who will likely to have to spend a long time "paying in" are more convinced in the merits of independence than those who are either currently receiving or soon to be receiving.

[Ozyhibby]

I appreciate that, so I can understand why the age at which you receive your pension will be an emotive subject for your demographic (a demographic who admittedly the SNP have failed to convince so far).

Your demographic is a different one to the one I was thinking of - those who are already pensioners - who are overwhelmingly against independence. We might need to come up with a different bribe for them.......

It is interesting that going by age, those who will likely to have to spend a long time "paying in" are more convinced in the merits of independence than those who are either currently receiving or soon to be receiving.

The offer to bring all Scottish pensions up to the average level of EU pensions should convince those already receiving their pensions.
It’s a flat out bribe but we know we can afford it if the political will is there.


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[SHODAN]

Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

[Ozyhibby]

Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

As I said earlier, why should they do it if Labour won’t do the same?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/bc160571f0baef951c359b302f626bd9.png


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[Colr]

Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍
Or make BBC subscription only.

There’s plenty of free to air TV for the biddies.

Might change the audience focus for QT!!!

[Colr]

Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

Labour need to reciprocate but they won’t. It’s one way traffic

[SHODAN]

Labour need to reciprocate but they won’t. It’s one way traffic

Yeah, fair enough.

[southsider]

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

[Ozyhibby]

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

Nice guy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/01de2534c90d876b547b8174163e6fe4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/83586258a3cc0c7cf5ffdb6d91d1024f.jpg


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[Frankhfc]

As I said earlier, why should they do it if Labour won’t do the same?


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I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

[southsider]

Nice guy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/01de2534c90d876b547b8174163e6fe4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/83586258a3cc0c7cf5ffdb6d91d1024f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for putting that up. Like a wee sad man that was on late call.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

Me as well mate, I'm extremely uncomfortable with stuff like tactical voting and parties refusing to stand .....the option should be to vote for what you stand for, not against what you dont. But when you have a first past the post system its an open door to that happening. I doubt pure PR will ever fly, but a system like we have for the Scottish parliament might, at least in that system every vote matters.

[NAE NOOKIE]

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

Saw that as well .... Mind you, when the prime minister does exactly the same thing in parliament is it any wonder our own dafties copy him.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

It’s not quite a free run as it will still be a two horse race. I can see the merit in it if you feel that another candidate has similar views to yours and he has a better chance of winning.


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[Frankhfc]

It’s not quite a free run as it will still be a two horse race. I can see the merit in it if you feel that another candidate has similar views to yours and he has a better chance of winning.


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True. I could have worded it slightly better in the form of 'standing down to increase the electoral prospects of a different parties candidate' instead.

I'm very uncomfortable with it but its only my opinion and you're obviously entitled to yours too Oz. It makes for decent debate.

:aok:

[Frankhfc]

Me as well mate, I'm extremely uncomfortable with stuff like tactical voting and parties refusing to stand .....the option should be to vote for what you stand for, not against what you dont. But when you have a first past the post system its an open door to that happening. I doubt pure PR will ever fly, but a system like we have for the Scottish parliament might, at least in that system every vote matters.

I agree with most of this.

I'm not so sure about the electoral systems part though as I've never really given it any thought but I'm sure you're point on it isn't without merit.

:aok:

[NAE NOOKIE]

The offer to bring all Scottish pensions up to the average level of EU pensions should convince those already receiving their pensions.
It’s a flat out bribe but we know we can afford it if the political will is there.


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Politics is all about bribes though isnt it. Nothing appeals to voters more than pandering to their self interest ... sadly.

[Moulin Yarns]

A wee bit about different forms of proportional representation as it may be used in a UK wide election. Quite a long twitter thread.


Today in "Ballot Box Scotland talks about Proportional Representation, because it's a travesty that the UK doesn't use it when the other 3 Scottish elections do", what might PR constituencies for Scotland at Westminster look like?



https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1194637623224152064?s=19

[Fife-Hibee]

SNP pushing for legal action against ITV regarding their exclusion. Like the Lib Dems, i'm not really sure what legal grounds they'll have here. But there must be something if they're pursuing it.

[ronaldo7]

SNP pushing for legal action against ITV regarding their exclusion. Like the Lib Dems, i'm not really sure what legal grounds they'll have here. But there must be something if they're pursuing it.

Parallel transmissions. Why should people in Scotland have to listen to English parties manifestos/ideas.

They do have Scottish branch offices don't they. 😉

[Hibernia&Alba]

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

[Fife-Hibee]

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

Another "right-wing conservative christian". Because the bible teaches that god favours the selfish. :aok:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

Oh wow. You could see it a mile off:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50405032

[Fife-Hibee]

That BBC Scottish Conservative broadcast :faf:

[Colr]

Parallel transmissions. Why should people in Scotland have to listen to English parties manifestos/ideas.

They do have Scottish branch offices don't they. 😉

The SNP stand a good chance of holding the balance of power at Westminster so people in England should be able to hear what they stand for.

They might also be able to offer a few words from Scotland about how to run a parliament!!

Maybe even propose a take over!

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1194683810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

[G B Young]

What a shambles of a leader Corbyn is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50397033

If his Brexit policy wasn't muddled enough, his stance on Scottish independence changes with the wind. He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

[G B Young]

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1194683810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

Sensible move to burn your bridges with the one party which might help you into power eh?

[Hibernia&Alba]

What a shambles of a leader Corbyn is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50397033

If his Brexit policy wasn't muddled enough, his stance on Scottish independence changes with the wind. He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.
To the benefit of whom, Boris Johnson?

[Fife-Hibee]

He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

As much as his actions anger me. I care too much about public services and the wellbeing of the general public to want Boris (in bed with Russia) Johnson to better him.

[Smartie]

Saying that you think Corbyn deserves a pasting at the polls (which he does) is different actually wanting it to happen(I certainly don't, although I suspect G B Young does).

The LibDems over performing, wiping the floor with the shameful Labour and Tories but needing a helpful hand from the landslide-emboldened SNP to get into power would do me just nicely.

[Frankhfc]

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1194683810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

[Bristolhibby]

Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

WTF has Indyref2 got to do with Core Northern England Labour voters?

J

[Hibernia&Alba]

Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

The progressive parties cutting each others' throats will only help Bozo and the hard Brexiteers. They need to play it smart, as the Tories and Brexit Party have. Work together to beat the Tories and create a fresh start at home and in Europe. The bigger picture requires the defeat of economic neoliberalism and political intolerance. That's how we improve society.

[Slavers]

WTF has Indyref2 got to do with Core Northern England Labour voters?

J

They possibly don't want a hard border between the two nations separating them from family and friends?

[cabbageandribs1875]

why is christine jardine spreading this sh*t, i'd love her and that snidey snake carmichael to get emptied

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/78226186_3115153625168437_2525871958994714624_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_eui2=AeHxiXMvobSGsMs0P09ObXcdqhhsAj-vh3ZylZ-raRBsZZ7eTmXclF6E8xfT03lnytt6GMImoWb5x73x050MtGRNT bQgPCx9cZEopd_AQBAi3Q&_nc_oc=AQmIRgvVRoDmjMrzp5RRlvytHc3kQVmvcaz4CmLyATS vA12QRaIm8RLCUVxSJaqBYX4&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=86b32dcb6f16ad0976c5f96dd85b37d3&oe=5E50ADF4

[Frankhfc]

The progressive parties cutting each others' throats will only help Bozo and the hard Brexiteers. They need to play it smart, as the Tories and Brexit Party have. Work together to beat the Tories and create a fresh start at home and in Europe. The bigger picture requires the defeat of economic neoliberalism and political intolerance. That's how we improve society.

I agree. I think Corbyn's playing to his home crowd with his recent comments.

[Slavers]

why is christine jardine spreading this sh*t, i'd love her and that snidey snake carmichael to get emptied

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/78226186_3115153625168437_2525871958994714624_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_eui2=AeHxiXMvobSGsMs0P09ObXcdqhhsAj-vh3ZylZ-raRBsZZ7eTmXclF6E8xfT03lnytt6GMImoWb5x73x050MtGRNT bQgPCx9cZEopd_AQBAi3Q&_nc_oc=AQmIRgvVRoDmjMrzp5RRlvytHc3kQVmvcaz4CmLyATS vA12QRaIm8RLCUVxSJaqBYX4&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=86b32dcb6f16ad0976c5f96dd85b37d3&oe=5E50ADF4

How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?

[Mon Dieu4]

How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?

Not long, I have a feeling the EU would rush it through pretty quickly to noise up Boris and co to be honest

[cabbageandribs1875]

How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?


a couple of months :wink: if that long

[Jack Hackett]

Not long, I have a feeling the EU would rush it through pretty quickly to noise up Boris and co to be honest

There's a great deal of sympathy for Scotland's position within the EU community... not to mention the hefty increase in tariffs they'd have to pay for their whisky, which would concentrate a few minds :wink:

[Slavers]

a couple of months :wink: if that long

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

[Slavers]

There's a great deal of sympathy for Scotland's position within the EU community... not to mention the hefty increase in tariffs they'd have to pay for their whisky, which would concentrate a few minds :wink:

Im sure there is sympathy but it's a heck of a leap to say we'd be allowed to join in months?

[Ozyhibby]

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

Nope. Geographically they would be delighted to have us as we have access to the North Atlantic. We are the EU largest oil producer as well, which is still a big deal even as we head to a carbon free future. Scotland would be an absolute shoe in to be welcomed into the EU.


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[lapsedhibee]

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?


Yes we'd 100% definitely have to adopt the Euro.
Or not, if we didn't fancy it.

[SHODAN]

Boris getting the dead cat out again.

[Smartie]

Boris getting the dead cat out again.

This post intrigues me.

I don't get it....

[Slavers]

Nope. Geographically they would be delighted to have us as we have access to the North Atlantic. We are the EU largest oil producer as well, which is still a big deal even as we head to a carbon free future. Scotland would be an absolute shoe in to be welcomed into the EU.


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What if one nation decided no if we allow Scotland to join it may encourage an Independence movement within their country.

Macron of France recently vetoed North Macedonia and Albania from joining.

With that in mind, surely it is possible that one of the 27 nations could veto Scotland joining?

That is a possibility surely?

[CloudSquall]

What if one nation decided no if we allow Scotland to join it may encourage an Independence movement within their country.

Macron of France recently vetoed North Macedonia and Albania from joining.

With that in mind, surely it is possible that one of the 27 nations could veto Scotland joining?

That is a possibility surely?

Do you honestly believe Scotland is on par with Albania and North Macedonia?

[G B Young]

Saying that you think Corbyn deserves a pasting at the polls (which he does) is different actually wanting it to happen(I certainly don't, although I suspect G B Young does).

The LibDems over performing, wiping the floor with the shameful Labour and Tories but needing a helpful hand from the landslide-emboldened SNP to get into power would do me just nicely.

I must say that would be an amusing scenario - and who knows, is it beyond the realms of possibility? I've always got the impression that Corbyn's inept leadership may be primarily down to the fact he's simply a bit dim. Today's gaffe on his party's Scottish independence policy certainly adds fuel to that impression. To get it so wrong is mind-boggling and his subsequent fudge just makes him look plain daft. As for then tweeting about the SNP ushering the Tories into power, what does he hope to achieve with that?! Sheer petulance at being made to look silly.

Corbyn has never given the impression he 'gets' Scotland at all and I find it hard to see Labour under his leadership ever regaining any sort of foothold here. They may even lose the handful of seats they managed to scrape together at the last election.

[Slavers]

Do you honestly believe Scotland is on par with Albania and North Macedonia?

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

Scotland can't meet the criteria as part of the UK. As even the UK technically doesn't meet the criteria, although that's never been a problem.

[Fife-Hibee]

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset.

Why not? Wouldn't that just be very 'British' of us?

[Slavers]

Why not? Wouldn't that just be very 'British' of us?

Well it would be very hypocritical.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Boris getting the dead cat out again.


This post intrigues me.

I don't get it....
Rumour is he's enjoyed a lot of pussy.:wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

Another embarrassing defeat for the UK Government by the court - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/13/uk-government-loses-supreme-court-fight-over-bedroom-tax

[Jones28]

Oh wow. You could see it a mile off:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50405032

Corbyn wouldn’t even speak to him. His scarf is tartan ffs, any ****er should be able to take some nutter to task on that kind of comment.

[southsider]

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

The difference is that Scotland, abit tutu the UK, is a long standing member of the EU. Would the 27 throw us out if England/Wales left or would they give us, the same rights as NI until full membership came thru. Never heard of any Nation being expelled from EU.

[Ozyhibby]

The difference is that Scotland, abit tutu the UK, is a long standing member of the EU. Would the 27 throw us out if England/Wales left or would they give us, the same rights as NI until full membership came thru. Never heard of any Nation being expelled from EU.

We would sail into the EU because we already meet all the criteria for entry.


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[SHODAN]

You have to laugh that the argument has gone from "Scotland might lose EU membership" to "Scotland won't get back in to the EU now we've dragged them out".

[CloudSquall]

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

In terms of EU membership I'd put us far above Albania and North Macedonia in terms of suitability.

[lucky]

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

[Ozyhibby]

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

Depends if the UK ends up with a hard border with the EU. That’s not at all certain yet.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/b5df1c854f74a83a96cf0f355707d3b1.png


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/b5df1c854f74a83a96cf0f355707d3b1.png


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BBC Reality Check

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50406110

[Cataplana]

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

Why would they gave to be put back to the people, if we know what the terms are in advance?

Wouldn't England really have made an arse of it if they were completely surrounded by hard borders?

[Frankhfc]

Why would they gave to be put back to the people, if we know what the terms are in advance?

Wouldn't England really have made an arse of it if they were completely surrounded by hard borders?

In my opinion independence is more likely to happen in the next five years than not. However, there will most definitely be extremely hard negotiations to encounter between not just ruk but also the EU as to budget deficits, currency convergence etc etc etc.

Also on your point regarding England and hard borders, it would no longer be our business whatever England would in the future decide as we would be on our own direction of travel both politically and ideologically post independence.

Its easy to spin biased opinions on both sides of the argument, however, I think there should also be a spoken reality with grown up debate as to the pragmatic aftermath. The songs of freedom will only reverberate for so long before the dust would settle on the new independent Scotland and the verity of the situation at hand.

[NAE NOOKIE]

They possibly don't want a hard border between the two nations separating them from family and friends?

If such a border ever comes into being its not going to have searchlights and barbed wire, it will be a normal international border just like any other .. my friends daughter lives in Australia and I cant recall her or her daughter moaning about having to cross a hard border when they visit each other, or having any problem doing so.

The way some folk go on you would think a day after independence the Scottish or UK government will start building something akin to the Berlin wall with me and my 3 brothers on one side waving our tear stained hankies at our brother who lives in England on the other hoping that some day we will see each other again. Given the number of people on both sides of the border with family on the other side the truth is that both Scotland and the rump UK will move heaven and earth to make movement between the two ( at least of people ) as frictionless as possible.

[JeMeSouviens]

In my opinion independence is more likely to happen in the next five years than not. However, there will most definitely be extremely hard negotiations to encounter between not just ruk but also the EU as to budget deficits, currency convergence etc etc etc.

Also on your point regarding England and hard borders, it would no longer be our business whatever England would in the future decide as we would be on our own direction of travel both politically and ideologically post independence.

Its easy to spin biased opinions on both sides of the argument, however, I think there should also be a spoken reality with grown up debate as to the pragmatic aftermath. The songs of freedom will only reverberate for so long before the dust would settle on the new independent Scotland and the verity of the situation at hand.

Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

[southsider]

The whole things resolved round engerland not wanting any more immigrants and the downright lies like Turkey is going to be a member and there will be 15 million Turks waiting at the border. That and the Ted bus were just lies but if u say the same thing over and over it become a FACT. We up here are not so dumb.

[Cataplana]

If such a border ever comes into being its not going to have searchlights and barbed wire, it will be a normal international border just like any other .. my friends daughter lives in Australia and I cant recall her or her daughter moaning about having to cross a hard border when they visit each other, or having any problem doing so.

The way some folk go on you would think a day after independence the Scottish or UK government will start building something akin to the Berlin wall with me and my 3 brothers on one side waving our tear stained hankies at our brother who lives in England on the other hoping that some day we will see each other again. Given the number of people on both sides of the border with family on the other side the truth is that both Scotland and the rump UK will move heaven and earth to make movement between the two ( at least of people ) as frictionless as possible.

The key is the length of time we can keep our legislation in line with the EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

The key is the length of time we can keep our legislation in line with the EU.

Anything that is devolved is not a problem, anything that is reserved can be made to remain in line with legislation at holyrood fairly quickly if the will of the parliament is there.


I worked within the 3 levels of legislation, the EU law was the umbrella legislation, this was embedded in the UK law and finally the Scottish legislation, which was stronger than the UK law.

[Moulin Yarns]

A new version of Chicken Run


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50413646?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5dcd502a86f452067b72a211%26Johnson%20c ancels%20event%20due%20to%20protest%262019-11-14T13%3A11%3A22.572Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1f265022-cf87-4292-be52-e93bb4e02c37&pinned_post_asset_id=5dcd502a86f452067b72a211&pinned_post_type=share

The article says it was cancelled on the advice of the police. Presumably they didn't have the manpower.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/114fa63c7edecf13de93d82ffa29e791.jpg
Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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[Frankhfc]

Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

Good post.

I genuinely didn't mean to sound at all insulting re songs of freedom :aok:. It was simply a reference pointing out the fact that after the expected exuberance of gaining independence that it could very well usher in a period of instability and a need for cool calm heads until the instability settles down and we can see how the picture then looks. What I cannot be bothered with and tend to ignore is those of any side who make outlandish predictions that cannot be substantiated. Of course there will be turbulence and some chaos post independence, however, I think independence will happen within the next 5 years or so.

[Bristolhibby]

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

Not necessarily, first government in IScotland could run on a mandate of “we will get membership ASAP”. No need for a Plebicite.

J

[lyonhibs]

Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

Not all the time they don't, I can say from personal experience.

[cabbageandribs1875]

work has already started on the border :greengrin

22697

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/114fa63c7edecf13de93d82ffa29e791.jpg
Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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Boris might lose the right to run the english NHS

[The Tubs]

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon.

Why would it?


It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

This is far from a certainty.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/66ff6a395d2cf44393a234eba8c82e92.jpg
https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/11/snp-enjoy-21-point-lead-over-tories-in.html?m=1



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[Fife-Hibee]

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

More private property getting confiscated. Feel sorry for all the people who have pension funds that might have invested in BT.


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[Bristolhibby]

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

Sounds like the Barnett formula.

The Plusnet formula.

J

[NAE NOOKIE]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/114fa63c7edecf13de93d82ffa29e791.jpg
Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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And yet time after time when both Tory and Labour supporters / MPs trot out their 'get on with the day job' mantra the first thing they do is mention the difficulties of the NHS in Scotland, where nurses are better paid and our waiting times are better than Tory run England or Labour run Wales.

Being best of a bad bunch isnt exactly something to bum about ... but it certainly doesnt give the rest any right to point out your flaws ... but then why let the truth get in the way of a hypocrisy the BBC and unionist press wont pull you up on.

[Mibbes Aye]

And yet time after time when both Tory and Labour supporters / MPs trot out their 'get on with the day job' mantra the first thing they do is mention the difficulties of the NHS in Scotland, where nurses are better paid and our waiting times are better than Tory run England or Labour run Wales.

Being best of a bad bunch isnt exactly something to bum about ... but it certainly doesnt give the rest any right to point out your flaws ... but then why let the truth get in the way of a hypocrisy the BBC and unionist press wont pull you up on.

As has been said before and it would be good if it was acknowledged........

Scotland is missing its targets. It is failing, by the standards it sets itself. To repeat, the standards the SNP government set itself. Failing. Consistently and constantly.

The fact it might be less worse than Wales will be little comfort to you or I or our children, parents or grandparents. When we need treatment we aren’t exactly going to be fussed if it is late but slightly quicker than somebody in Aberystwyth or Wrexham.

Maybe SG should just pony up and explain why they continually break their own law on treatment times and why they miss all their targets, rather than saying, “...Yeah, we are failing, but we aren’t failing as badly yet as England and Wales”.

I mean really, is that we are reduced to?

[Ozyhibby]

Or just set targets we can meet.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Or just set targets we can meet.


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That is up to the SNP government.

You have to question the guile or competence if they are setting targets that continually get missed.

[Fife-Hibee]

As has been said before and it would be good if it was acknowledged........

Scotland is missing its targets. It is failing, by the standards it sets itself. To repeat, the standards the SNP government set itself. Failing. Consistently and constantly.

The fact it might be less worse than Wales will be little comfort to you or I or our children, parents or grandparents. When we need treatment we aren’t exactly going to be fussed if it is late but slightly quicker than somebody in Aberystwyth or Wrexham.

Maybe SG should just pony up and explain why they continually break their own law on treatment times and why they miss all their targets, rather than saying, “...Yeah, we are failing, but we aren’t failing as badly yet as England and Wales”.

I mean really, is that we are reduced to?

Less worse than Wales. Even less worse than England.... and even less worse still than Northern Ireland.

If the targets were being hit in Scotland, the targets would be getting set even higher and unionists would be complaining about those targets not being hit either. The purpose of them is to push the Scottish NHS to it's absolute best. The SNP could quite easily lower the target to 90% and rub it in to the rest of the UK. But that's not why they set targets in Scotland.

[Fife-Hibee]

Or just set targets we can meet.

If they set targets that are being met, people would be asking them why they aren't setting the targets even higher. Lowering the target could also make things worse. Better to get 91-92% with a 95% target than 86-87% with a 90% target. By setting targets that are just about impossible to hit, it gets the very best out of the service.

[marinello59]

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

Add a loony lefty comment in there and you could probably get that on to the front page of the Daily Express. :greengrin
It's an idea worth considering. I'd rather see our nations infrastructure in public hands but we do need to see this costed.

[Colr]

Add a loony lefty comment in there and you could probably get that on to the front page of the Daily Express. :greengrin
It's an idea worth considering. I'd rather see our nations infrastructure in public hands but we do need to see this costed.

BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

[G B Young]

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:


According to Curtice their chances of a majority are 'virtually zero' so I guess there's no harm just throwing any old promise into the mix at this stage:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/107986/chances-labour-majority-almost-zero-claims

[Cataplana]

And yet time after time when both Tory and Labour supporters / MPs trot out their 'get on with the day job' mantra the first thing they do is mention the difficulties of the NHS in Scotland, where nurses are better paid and our waiting times are better than Tory run England or Labour run Wales.

Being best of a bad bunch isnt exactly something to bum about ... but it certainly doesnt give the rest any right to point out your flaws ... but then why let the truth get in the way of a hypocrisy the BBC and unionist press wont pull you up on.

Despite the NHS asking not to be used as a political football , politicians continue to do just that.

Sick to death of empty words about the health service, they would be as well shouting Down With This Sort of Thing.

Not one of the parties has spoken about the low wages , it's all bollocks about waiting times.

[Hibrandenburg]

What a shambles of a leader Corbyn is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50397033

If his Brexit policy wasn't muddled enough, his stance on Scottish independence changes with the wind. He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

:agree: He's now saying that he'd like time after a labour victory to hand Scotland a bung before any referendum would take place. He back tracks faster than an Italian WW2 tank.

[SHODAN]

:agree: He's now saying that he'd like time after a labour victory to hand Scotland a bung before any referendum would take place. He back tracks faster than an Italian WW2 tank.

If it meant staying in the EU and ultra devolution (with provision making it illegal for any of it to be rolled back by future UK goverments) then I might accept.

[Ozyhibby]

BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

It’s worse than that. A state monopoly won’t innovate at all. Just now the network is constantly being upgraded as the companies compete to offer faster broadband. A state monopoly will quickly decide we have what we need.


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[Willis1875]

BoJo just got owned by Naga Munchetty on BBC

[Just_Jimmy]

BoJo just got owned by Naga Munchetty on BBCAbsolutely.

Yet he'll still win a majority at this election and he'll destroy the country further.



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[Willis1875]

When he got asked at the end 'how is he relatable to the people of this country' he was completely lost. A simple non political question destroyed him

[CloudSquall]

If it meant staying in the EU and ultra devolution (with provision making it illegal for any of it to be rolled back by future UK goverments) then I might accept.

I think currently that would get a majority of support in Scotland however my issue with it is that we were promised ultra devolution after the referendum and got the square root of f all.

I just don't trust them to actually deliver it, maybe it would be different with a Labour government supported by the SNP though.

[Hibrandenburg]

BoJo just got owned by Naga Munchetty on BBC

More evidence that this buffoon has been educated well beyond his intelligence. Being thick became an endearing feature around 20 years ago, mainly due to reality TV shows and now we're paying the price.

[degenerated]

“They wear Burtons suits, they think it’s funny, turning rebellion in to money.”

Strummer ripping in to the Jam. :greengrin"CBS promote the Clash, their revolution was just for cash"

Crass ripping in to the Clash. :greengrin

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[degenerated]

For YES to win indyRef2 we need to attract older people imho. How much would free TV licences for all pensioners cost. Not that much in the grand scheme of things I would suggest.I might be wrong, but I haven't seen the SNP commitment to greatly increase pensions in an independent Scotland mentioned in any papers.
The SNP really need to get the message out there.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Colr]

More evidence that this buffoon has been educated well beyond his intelligence. Being thick became an endearing feature around 20 years ago, mainly due to reality TV shows and now we're paying the price.

Once again the Tories seem to be putting their leader into situations they just can’t handle. If the leaders a stookie, don’t get them to dance. If they can’t mop floors, relate to ordinary people in a crisis or know the words to the wheels on the bus don’t put them in there.

They are shaping up to blow their campaign again.

[Ozyhibby]

I might be wrong, but I haven't seen the SNP commitment to greatly increase pensions in an independent Scotland mentioned in any papers.
The SNP really need to get the message out there.

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Save that for the indyref campaign.


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[SHODAN]

I think currently that would get a majority of support in Scotland however my issue with it is that we were promised ultra devolution after the referendum and got the square root of f all.

I just don't trust them to actually deliver it, maybe it would be different with a Labour government supported by the SNP though.

Difference being it's not immediately after the referendum and if they depend on us for confidence and supply then we can force it through with whatever amendments we want.

It imperative that IF Corbyn gets in power, the devolution agreement can not legally be eroded by future PM Rees-Mogg.

[Cataplana]

Once again the Tories seem to be putting their leader into situations they just can’t handle. If the leaders a stookie, don’t get them to dance. If they can’t mop floors, relate to ordinary people in a crisis or know the words to the wheels on the bus don’t put them in there.

They are shaping up to blow their campaign again.

They don't have to relate to ordinary people, ordinary people are relating to him. He likes Marmite, The Clash, The Rolling Stones and cooks steak and oven chips.

He can almost work a microwave, and is pretty good at walking on two legs without scraping his knuckles on the ground.

He's just as stumped as everyone else about how to fix the situation, so he's alright, and he's the guy to lead us out of this mess. He's loving playing the plucky underdog, and middle Britain is loving it too.

[Moulin Yarns]

As has been said before and it would be good if it was acknowledged........

Scotland is missing its targets. It is failing, by the standards it sets itself. To repeat, the standards the SNP government set itself. Failing. Consistently and constantly.

The fact it might be less worse than Wales will be little comfort to you or I or our children, parents or grandparents. When we need treatment we aren’t exactly going to be fussed if it is late but slightly quicker than somebody in Aberystwyth or Wrexham.

Maybe SG should just pony up and explain why they continually break their own law on treatment times and why they miss all their targets, rather than saying, “...Yeah, we are failing, but we aren’t failing as badly yet as England and Wales”.

I mean really, is that we are reduced to?


People in England would appear to wish they had access to the NHS in Scotland

So the lady in the audience in Brighton, England wishes she had the NHS like we have in Scotland. That's because we have a better government up here. @theSNP (https://twitter.com/theSNP)
#bbcqt (https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcqt?src=hashtag_click)

11:32 PM · Nov 14, 2019·Twitter Web App (https://help.twitter.com/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)

[CloudSquall]

Once again the Tories seem to be putting their leader into situations they just can’t handle. If the leaders a stookie, don’t get them to dance. If they can’t mop floors, relate to ordinary people in a crisis or know the words to the wheels on the bus don’t put them in there.

They are shaping up to blow their campaign again.

Hiding him away might work, I follow Brazilian politics and after Bolsonaro got stabbed in the run up to their Presidential election he couldn't participate in the debates or be active and his % in the polls actually went up.

Less is more in some cases.

[Moulin Yarns]

According to Curtice their chances of a majority are 'virtually zero' so I guess there's no harm just throwing any old promise into the mix at this stage:

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/107986/chances-labour-majority-almost-zero-claims

The bit in bold rings a bell

https://images.app.goo.gl/aAdstT9fM64m3HFU6

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour come out with some cracking promises, everything will be free, big increases in wages, the magic money tree has been well and truly shaken :thumbsup:their meetings are better(and funnier) than the early xmas TV adverts so far, very much looking forward to a few days before voting day and if Labour are behind in the polls promising one free food day every month for everyone, but, it will take until 2030 to get organised :agree:

[Cataplana]

Labour come out with some cracking promises, everything will be free, big increases in wages, the magic money tree has been well and truly shaken :thumbsup:their meetings are better(and funnier) than the early xmas TV adverts so far, very much looking forward to a few days before voting day and if Labour are behind in the polls promising one free food day every month for everyone, but, it will take until 2030 to get organised :agree:

Can you sell oil for money? (This is not a trick question.)

It's just that there is a lot of money in our economy and to give up and say it can't be distributed more fairly is defeatest.

[marinello59]

BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

So you'd agree that the service we currently get is unsatisfactory? Add in the slow roll out of superfast broadband compared to other countries and something needs to be done. The NHS is effectively a nationalised monopoly and nobody would seriously suggest we would have a better service under private ownership. Instead we have a service that many in Scotland hold up as an example of good practice so they can be made to work.

[Hibrandenburg]

Can you sell oil for money? (This is not a trick question.)

It's just that there is a lot of money in our economy and to give up and say it can't be distributed more fairly is a bit silly.

:agree: The fact that a few people are sat on more money than they can ever hope to spend is outrageous, that money isn't going to reenter the economy anytime soon. A redistribution of wealth through higher taxes for billionaires will not make them destitute, instead it will put it back in the economy providing jobs, services and more self reliant taxpayers to keep the country ticking over.

[Cataplana]

:agree: The fact that a few people are sat on more money than they can ever hope to spend is outrageous, that money isn't going to reenter the economy anytime soon. A redistribution of wealth through higher taxes for billionaires will not make them destitute, instead it will put it back in the economy providing jobs, services and more self reliant taxpayers to keep the country ticking over.

If we had accepted the status quo in the past, we'd still be living in houses with outside toilets and worrying about getting ill because we can't pay the bills.

[ronaldo7]

I think currently that would get a majority of support in Scotland however my issue with it is that we were promised ultra devolution after the referendum and got the square root of f all.

I just don't trust them to actually deliver it, maybe it would be different with a Labour government supported by the SNP though.

Don't hold your breath. Labour were the worst culprits during the Smith commission discussions, wanting to keep everything in London.

[lapsedhibee]

If we had accepted the status quo in the past, we'd still be living in houses with outside toilets and worrying about getting ill because we can't pay the bills.

Outside toilets? We had to dig a hole in the back yard!

[Cataplana]

Outside toilets? We had to dig a hole in the back yard!

Things like that have ceased to be thankfully.

[Onceinawhile]

Outside toilets? We had to dig a hole in the back yard!

You had a back yard? Luxury.

[Bristolhibby]

You had a back yard? Luxury.

You mean you didn’t have a single room with 12 living in one bed?

J

[southsider]

If we had accepted the status quo in the past, we'd still be living in houses with outside toilets and worrying about getting ill because we can't pay the bills.

Down down

[Cataplana]

Down down

That was a Piledriver.

[Fife-Hibee]

If it meant staying in the EU and ultra devolution (with provision making it illegal for any of it to be rolled back by future UK goverments) then I might accept.

Devolution is a trap, because it still allows the UK Government to borrow and spend money on our behalf. There's things that they'll simply never devolve such as defence and control of our own borders, which will allow them to continue their economic pokery and make it appear like Scotland has a huge gaping deficit.

It's independence and independence only for me and I think that's where the vast majority on this side are at now.

[SHODAN]

Devolution is a trap, because it still allows the UK Government to borrow and spend money on our behalf. There's things that they'll simply never devolve such as defence and control of our own borders, which will allow them to continue their economic pokery and make it appear like Scotland has a huge gaping deficit.

It's independence and independence only for me and I think that's where the vast majority on this side are at now.

I'm the same but it's getting to the point where I have a mortgage and a family on the horizon and I'd be prepared to accept staying in the EU and shelving a referendum for a decade or so, just for a bit of stability. If Brexit happens then yeah, full steam ahead on independence.

[Mibbes Aye]

Less worse than Wales. Even less worse than England.... and even less worse still than Northern Ireland.

If the targets were being hit in Scotland, the targets would be getting set even higher and unionists would be complaining about those targets not being hit either. The purpose of them is to push the Scottish NHS to it's absolute best. The SNP could quite easily lower the target to 90% and rub it in to the rest of the UK. But that's not why they set targets in Scotland.

If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

[CloudSquall]

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1195360764024049665/photo/1

Absolute belter of a graph from the Tories here.

For reference the 2017 results for Livingston were the below,

SNP 21k
Labour 17k
Tories 12k

[lucky]

Devolution is a trap, because it still allows the UK Government to borrow and spend money on our behalf. There's things that they'll simply never devolve such as defence and control of our own borders, which will allow them to continue their economic pokery and make it appear like Scotland has a huge gaping deficit.

It's independence and independence only for me and I think that's where the vast majority on this side are at now.

Vast majority on side with independence, big statement. Not seen any polls that show that. The SNP are riding high in the polls and have been for years now but they are no nearer achieving a mandate for independence now as they were 5 years ago. This election is not about Brexit or even independence, it’s simple it’s an election on austerity. If people want more austerity vote Tory if you want to do it differently vote Labour. The SNP can’t win this election at best they may for part of a rainbow coalition but an SNP vote won’t give you independence or even a referendum on it regardless of Nicola’s comments.

[JeMeSouviens]

Vast majority on side with independence, big statement. Not seen any polls that show that. The SNP are riding high in the polls and have been for years now but they are no nearer achieving a mandate for independence now as they were 5 years ago. This election is not about Brexit or even independence, it’s simple it’s an election on austerity. If people want more austerity vote Tory if you want to do it differently vote Labour. The SNP can’t win this election at best they may for part of a rainbow coalition but an SNP vote won’t give you independence or even a referendum on it regardless of Nicola’s comments.

Not what he said. Let me interpret for you:

The vast majority of those on the Yes side want nothing less than indy, ie. won't settle for a further devo compromise.

[G B Young]

https://www.hibs.net/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2019/11/15/812fb538-62b7-4df5-9e62-b4f56d433e2b.jpg

Caption time?

[Fife-Hibee]

If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

There's no such thing as "legally binding targets". If that were the case, the Scottish Government, the UK Government and the Welsh/Nothern Ireland Assemblies would have the courts to answer to.

You can call it a lack of competence. But I personally think it makes more sense to set targets that are extremely difficult to hit in order to get the best out of a service as opposed to setting lower targets just for the sake of hitting them.

It demonstrates that the SNP are putting performance over politics. The targets under the current economic and social climate are near on impossible to hit. This is well known in Government departments across the UK. But Scotland does come the closest.

[Fife-Hibee]

Vast majority on side with independence, big statement. Not seen any polls that show that. The SNP are riding high in the polls and have been for years now but they are no nearer achieving a mandate for independence now as they were 5 years ago. This election is not about Brexit or even independence, it’s simple it’s an election on austerity. If people want more austerity vote Tory if you want to do it differently vote Labour. The SNP can’t win this election at best they may for part of a rainbow coalition but an SNP vote won’t give you independence or even a referendum on it regardless of Nicola’s comments.

Voting Labour in Scotland is pointless as it simply divides the SNP vote and acts as a backdoor for tory candidates to take the seats. I'll tell you this much though. If a situation arises after the election where Labour have the opportunity to form a Government and Corbyn maintains his stance regarding another referendum in Scotland. Labour will not be forming the next Government. The SNP showed 40 years ago that they wouldn't be jerked around at the cost of Scotlands sovereignty and they certainly won't be jerked around this time either.

It's take it or leave it Labour as far as the SNP are concerned.

[Slavers]

There's no such thing as "legally binding targets". If that were the case, the Scottish Government, the UK Government and the Welsh/Nothern Ireland Assemblies would have the courts to answer to.

You can call it a lack of competence. But I personally think it makes more sense to set targets that are extremely difficult to hit in order to get the best out of a service as opposed to setting lower targets just for the sake of hitting them.

It demonstrates that the SNP are putting performance over politics. The targets under the current economic and social climate are near on impossible to hit. This is well known in Government departments across the UK. But Scotland does come the closest.

Except the SNP done the exact opposite with Education? They set lower targets so they could meet them?

[Fife-Hibee]

Except the SNP done the exact opposite with Education? They set lower targets so they could meet them?

The attainment targets are no lower here than anywhere else in the UK. Besides, having higher targets isn't going to make individual students try any harder in their exams.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Except the SNP done the exact opposite with Education? They set lower targets so they could meet them?

Please show your workings.

[Cataplana]

If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

Believe me, missed targets are not a source of low morale in the NHS. Low wages, and a patronising "it's not your fault" attitude from public and politicians do much more harm.

A typical example is when the health service says "keep us out of the election" only to be passed around like a football by people who have neither the ability to understand health care, or the desire to do anything about it.

The NHS seems to have become the universal panacea for all our problems. We have an imbalance in the distribution of wealth, but both sides would rather focus on how hospitals are run than doing something about improving people's lot.

If people had hope, they wouldn't be so worried about getting unwell.

[CloudSquall]

Inverness Central (Highland) result:

SNP: 45.2% (+12.3)
CON: 15.3% (+2.9)
IND: 12.3% (+12.3)
LDEM: 10.5% (+6.0)
GRN: 9.8% (+3.7)
LAB: 6.9% (-10.0)

SNP HOLD.

No Ind(s) (-27.3) as prev.


I know it's a council by-election but F me, Labour in 6th..

[DaveF]

Inverness Central (Highland) result:

SNP: 45.2% (+12.3)
CON: 15.3% (+2.9)
IND: 12.3% (+12.3)
LDEM: 10.5% (+6.0)
GRN: 9.8% (+3.7)
LAB: 6.9% (-10.0)

SNP HOLD.

No Ind(s) (-27.3) as prev.


I know it's a council by-election but F me, Labour in 6th..

Maybe the Independent was ex Labour looking at their increase against Labour decrease?

[Fife-Hibee]

Inverness Central (Highland) result:

SNP: 45.2% (+12.3)
CON: 15.3% (+2.9)
IND: 12.3% (+12.3)
LDEM: 10.5% (+6.0)
GRN: 9.8% (+3.7)
LAB: 6.9% (-10.0)

SNP HOLD.

No Ind(s) (-27.3) as prev.


I know it's a council by-election but F me, Labour in 6th..

That along with the 2 by-election victories in Fife shows things are beginning to swing back towards them again. Wouldn't be surprised to see the SNP return 50+ seats again.

[Mibbes Aye]

There's no such thing as "legally binding targets". If that were the case, the Scottish Government, the UK Government and the Welsh/Nothern Ireland Assemblies would have the courts to answer to.

You can call it a lack of competence. But I personally think it makes more sense to set targets that are extremely difficult to hit in order to get the best out of a service as opposed to setting lower targets just for the sake of hitting them.

It demonstrates that the SNP are putting performance over politics. The targets under the current economic and social climate are near on impossible to hit. This is well known in Government departments across the UK. But Scotland does come the closest.

The Patient Rights Act (Scotland) Act 2011 is maybe what you haven’t read. In no small part, this is why the NHS in Scotland spends money on private providers.

I agree with setting exacting targets, but when you clearly are missing them by a country mile, then it becomes less about the target and more about what the hell you are doing to address under-performance.