SNP nonsense

[makaveli1875]

Wee Nicky doesnt know if she's coming or going just now .

We need a referendum because were being dragged out of the EU #castironmandate

Now she's not even sure an independent Scotland will join the EU :rolleyes:

The General Election is not about independence says Nicola

The general Election is all about independence says Alex :rolleyes:

The General Election is about independence says Nicola after consulting Alex :aok:

now its back to not being about independence :rolleyes:

The general election is now about giving Nicky a seat at the Brexit negotiating table #hurrdtorreeebrixit

[pacoluna]

You seem obsessed with independence. What party do you actually support? This anti SNP stuff provides no constructiveness.

[marinello59]

To be fair to Sturgeon she has always said she wants to get the best deal with the EU that she can with full membership the aim. It's a realistic stance.
The attempts to paint other parties as obsessed by independence are laughable though, the SNP have to concentrate on the constitution in order to deflect attention from their poor domestic performance. She admitted over the weekend that after ten years they had to do better on education, the policy she says she wants judged on. She can't blame Westminster for that after boasting that she is throwing more money at the problems. That's not working so it has to be their management to blame.

[Greenworld]

It's nonsense to suggest your summery is accurate.
For the first time in many years there is no need for big debates it's all been done to death.
Pick your party place your vote.
For clarity I will be voting SNP 😁😁

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

[makaveli1875]

You seem obsessed with independence. What party do you actually support? This anti SNP stuff provides no constructiveness.

Traditionally a labour supporter/voter . Not obsessed with independence at all , id rather we were talking about the things that matter to Scotland , our kids education , our economy etc . Its your Dear Leader that has got everyone talking about the I word and you have been lapping it up while pumping out the anti torree stuff that also provides no constructiveness

[Just Alf]

Wee Nicky, Dear leader?

I thought we'd done the kiddy stuff to death... Seems not.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You seem obsessed with independence. What party do you actually support? This anti SNP stuff provides no constructiveness.

Why is it any less constructive than the anti-tory stuff?

Governing parties get the most attention, the most scrutiny and the most flak - it just goes with the territory.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Wee Nicky doesnt know if she's coming or going just now .

We need a referendum because were being dragged out of the EU #castironmandate

Now she's not even sure an independent Scotland will join the EU :rolleyes:

The General Election is not about independence says Nicola

The general Election is all about independence says Alex :rolleyes:

The General Election is about independence says Nicola after consulting Alex :aok:

now its back to not being about independence :rolleyes:

The general election is now about giving Nicky a seat at the Brexit negotiating table #hurrdtorreeebrixit

I do agree her approach to brexit is a bit scattergun and incoherent - absolutely not things the SNP habe been guilty of often in recent years.

I really think Sturgeon is proving to be a poor FM. She gives the impression of not being focused on anything except indy, when the snp success of the ladt decade was built on being good enough with other issues, that indy was almost secondary.

She increasingly looks quite craven, and if she keeps making 'demands' of the PM that continually get swatted away, she will make herself look very weak.

Anecdotally, i think a lot of people just seem to dislike her - ive always thought she had a bit too much of the chip-on-the-shoulder-weegie, and the constant moaning is only reinforcing that, imo.

[pacoluna]

Why is it any less constructive than the anti-tory stuff?

Governing parties get the most attention, the most scrutiny and the most flak - it just goes with the territory.

If it was SCOTGOV elections I would understand people scrutinizing the SNP and their policies with regards to devolved powers and time in Gvment. Instead of the SNPBAD stuff why don't people like yourself give us your reason as to why we should vote Tory, labour or libdems. What policies do you agree with etc but no just like kezia and Ruth the only thing I am hearing is we don't want a 2nd referendum so don't vote for SNP, which serves no constructiveness as it has no relevance. As a whole I think SNP have served as much better opposition than labour have.

[CropleyWasGod]

If it was SCOTGOV elections I would understand people scrutinizing the SNP and their policies with regards to devolved powers and time in Gvment. Instead of the SNPBAD stuff why don't people like yourself give us your reason as to why we should vote Tory, labour or libdems. What policies do you agree with etc but no just like kezia and Ruth the only thing I am hearing is we don't want a 2nd referendum so don't vote for SNP

Sadly, that's the LibDem line too.

1. stop the referendum

2. stop the Tories.

Nothing positive, except

3. invest more in education.

Forgetting that 3 has got naff all to do with this election.

[Hibbyradge]

I didn't realise it until I read this thread, but although Edinburgh will always be my home and I miss it dearly, I'm so glad I'm away from all this petty crap.

The Corbyn stuff is more than enough for me. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Sadly, that's the LibDem line too.

1. stop the referendum

2. stop the Tories.

Nothing positive, except

3. invest more in education.

Forgetting that 3 has got naff all to do with this election.

Stop Brexit.

[CropleyWasGod]

Stop Brexit.

There was nothing about Brexit from my local candidate. Just those 3 items above.

Oh, there was one other.... Labour have no chance of winning this seat, so vote for us.

It's depressing and insulting.

[makaveli1875]

If it was SCOTGOV elections I would understand people scrutinizing the SNP and their policies with regards to devolved powers and time in Gvment. Instead of the SNPBAD stuff why don't people like yourself give us your reason as to why we should vote Tory, labour or libdems. What policies do you agree with etc but no just like kezia and Ruth the only thing I am hearing is we don't want a 2nd referendum so don't vote for SNP, which serves no constructiveness as it has no relevance. As a whole I think SNP have served as much better opposition than labour have.

The only reason myself or anyone in scotland will vote for the Libs , Labour or the bad Torreees at this election is to shut Sturgeon up and get shot of the SNP.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If it was SCOTGOV elections I would understand people scrutinizing the SNP and their policies with regards to devolved powers and time in Gvment. Instead of the SNPBAD stuff why don't people like yourself give us your reason as to why we should vote Tory, labour or libdems. What policies do you agree with etc but no just like kezia and Ruth the only thing I am hearing is we don't want a 2nd referendum so don't vote for SNP, which serves no constructiveness as it has no relevance. As a whole I think SNP have served as much better opposition than labour have.

Economic competence, mostly. I think they are the best at amanging thr economy, and i think IF (admittedly a big IF) May takes on the mantle of one-nation, centre ground politics, thats the best way for the UK to go. Im prepared to give hwr the benefit of the doubt, particuarly given the relative strength of the alternatives.

Why would i cast my vote for a party that cant win, and cant realistically hope to have any meaningful leverage? A party would use my vote for them as an endorsement of a policy that they claim isnt up for debate, but that quite literally is their only reason for existing?

Alternatively, i might still vote labour IF come polling day i think Ian Murray can win. Wee hearts bassa he may be, but a centrist labour guy who is a good constituency MP is a strong addition to the parliament.

And i also dont particuarly rate the SNP candidate, who already loat the holyrood Edinburgh South seat.

If i lived in a seat where the lib dems were viable, i would consider lending my vote to them.

Othr than indy or brexit (maybe), what is the point of a vote for a party that cant win, and cant be a constructive oppoaition (even if there was an opportunity, which i doubt there will be) like the SNP?

[Geo_1875]

The only reason myself or anyone in scotland will vote for the Libs , Labour or the bad Torreees at this election is to shut Sturgeon up and get shot of the SNP.

So you'll throw your vote away in protest against someone who isn't standing in the election?

That sounds a wee bit obsessed to me.

[CropleyWasGod]

Economic competence, mostly. I think they are the best at amanging thr economy, and i think IF (admittedly a big IF) May takes on the mantle of one-nation, centre ground politics, thats the best way for the UK to go.

Why would i cast my vote for a party that cant win, and cant realistically hope to have any meaningful leverage? A party would use my vote for them as an endorsement of a policy that they claim isnt up for debate, but that quite literally is their only reason for existing?

Alternatively, i might still vote labour IF come polling day i think Ian Murray can win. Wee hearts bassa he may be, but a centrist labour guy who is a good constituency MP is a strong addition to the parliament.

And i also dont particuarly rate the SNP candidate, who already loat the holyrood Edinburgh South seat.

If i lived in a seat where the lib dems were viable, i would consider lending my vote to them.

Lots of reasons...

Othr than indy or brexit (maybe), what is the point of a vote for a party that cant win, and cant be a constructive oppoaition (even if there was an opportunity, which i doubt there will be) like the SNP?


There, in a nutshell, is the root of the problem with the Westminster system IMO. By that reasoning, it's a 1 or, at most, a 2-horse race. Contrast that with Holyrood, where PR helps to make every vote important.

[Hibbyradge]

The only reason myself or anyone in scotland will vote for the Libs , Labour or the bad Torreees at this election is to shut Sturgeon up and get shot of the SNP.

I'll be voting Liberal to get rid of the Tory. :na na:

[stoneyburn hibs]

The only reason myself or anyone in scotland will vote for the Libs , Labour or the bad Torreees at this election is to shut Sturgeon up and get shot of the SNP.

Fantastic reasoning, unfortunately for you the SNP are going nowhere.

[pacoluna]

Economic competence, mostly. I think they are the best at amanging thr economy, and i think IF (admittedly a big IF) May takes on the mantle of one-nation, centre ground politics, thats the best way for the UK to go.

Why would i cast my vote for a party that cant win, and cant realistically hope to have any meaningful leverage? A party would use my vote for them as an endorsement of a policy that they claim isnt up for debate, but that quite literally is their only reason for existing?

Alternatively, i might still vote labour IF come polling day i think Ian Murray can win. Wee hearts bassa he may be, but a centrist labour guy who is a good constituency MP is a strong addition to the parliament.

And i also dont particuarly rate the SNP candidate, who already loat the holyrood Edinburgh South seat.

If i lived in a seat where the lib dems were viable, i would consider lending my vote to them.

Lots of reasons...

Othr than indy or brexit (maybe), what is the point of a vote for a party that cant win, and cant be a constructive oppoaition (even if there was an opportunity, which i doubt there will be)?

So basically your saying that there is no point in voting for the SNP because in Scotland we have a democratic deficit? so lets just vote for the Tories so they can govern WM unopposed because we can't vote for Corbyn can we.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There, in a nutshell, is the root of the problem with the Westminster system IMO. By that reasoning, it's a 1 or, at most, a 2-horse race. Contrast that with Holyrood, where PR helps to make every vote important.

Agree, and PR systems are much fairer. Although as we see at Holyrood, with the current commission exploring reform, PR sysyems habe their downsides too.

But, FPTP we have, so i will play within those rules.

[pacoluna]

The only reason myself or anyone in scotland will vote for the Libs , Labour or the bad Torreees at this election is to shut Sturgeon up and get shot of the SNP.
Where do you think SNPs voters have came from? your resentment of the SNP it seems won't go away. The problem for you is... either will the SNP.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So basically your saying that there is not point in voting for the SNP because in Scotland we have a democratic deficit? so lets just vote for the Tories so they can govern WM unopposed because we can't vote for Corbyn can we.

Did i say that? Or are you interpreting my post to suit yourself?

The SNP only stand candidates in around 10% of seats therefore they cannot win.

They could still wield a lot of power in the right circumstances, but not the circulstamces that i think will prevail.

So, what people have to ask themselves os who is best to represent their interests at WM? An SNP MP in a small minority group who are against the government on principle, not on polixy, or a member of the official HM Opposition who can conceivably make a difference, or a member of HM Government?

There is no democratic deficit, my vote and yours count the same as everyone else in the country.

[Geo_1875]

Did i say that? Or are you interpreting my post to suit yourself?

The SNP only stand candidates in around 10% of seats therefore they cannot win.

They could still wield a lot of power in the right circumstances, but not the circulstamces that i think will prevail.

So, what people have to ask themselves os who is best to represent their interests at WM? An SNP MP in a small minority group who are against the government on principle, not on polixy, or a member of the official HM Opposition who can conceivably make a difference, or a member of HM Government?

There is no democratic deficit, my vote and yours count the same as everyone else in the country.

But surely only if you vote Tory or Labour?

[marinello59]

If it was SCOTGOV elections I would understand people scrutinizing the SNP and their policies with regards to devolved powers and time in Gvment. Instead of the SNPBAD stuff why don't people like yourself give us your reason as to why we should vote Tory, labour or libdems. What policies do you agree with etc but no just like kezia and Ruth the only thing I am hearing is we don't want a 2nd referendum so don't vote for SNP, which serves no constructiveness as it has no relevance. As a whole I think SNP have served as much better opposition than labour have.

Of course the record of the SNP in power is relevant, it's as good an indication as any of how their words match their actions when they are asking us for their vote whatever parliament they are standing for. I agree they have provided a decent opposition in Westminster and I will be voting for my sitting MP. They are far from perfect though, the constant dismissing of all criticism as SNPBAD is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying I'm not listening.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But surely only if you vote Tory or Labour?

What, so if you vote for a party that doesnt win, its a democratic deficit?

The Lib Dems did quite well recently. We are a country of 65m people, if you base your appeal only to 5.5m of them, then you cant win.

By all means blame the system, but it isnt changing anytime soon.

[makaveli1875]

Fantastic reasoning, unfortunately for you the SNP are going nowhere.


Where do you think SNPs voters have came from? your resentment of the SNP it seems won't go away. The problem for you is... either will the SNP.

You may both be right . I hope not but we shall see

[Moulin Yarns]

What, so if you vote for a party that doesnt win, its a democratic deficit?

The Lib Dems did quite well recently. We are a country of 65m people, if you base your appeal only to 5.5m of them, then you cant win.

By all means blame the system, but it isnt changing anytime soon.


Or indeed ever! While we have a Conservative Government that are the main (only) beneficiaries of the FPTP system. While there are regular debates on PR at Westminster nothing will change without a change of Government, which means voting for any party that supports PR.

As an aside, the SNP could not have got 56 seats under PR

[degenerated]

You seem obsessed with independence. What party do you actually support? This anti SNP stuff provides no constructiveness.

An obsession matched only by his apparent ignorance of the SNP position :agree:

[makaveli1875]

An obsession matched only by his apparent ignorance of the SNP position :agree:

Feel free to correct my ignorance with some facts rather than a nodding head emo

[JeMeSouviens]

Feel free to correct my ignorance with some facts rather than a nodding head emo

If you actually want to discuss this rather than just throw playground insults around, why not:

- delete this thread
- start a new one entitled something like - "SNP position on the EU post-independence"

... and try and make some points like a grown up? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

If you actually want to discuss this rather than just throw playground insults around, why not:

- delete this thread
- start a new one entitled something like - "SNP position on the EU post-independence"

... and try and make some points like a grown up? :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQizNZKiyYs

[makaveli1875]

If you actually want to discuss this rather than just throw playground insults around, why not:

- delete this thread
- start a new one entitled something like - "SNP position on the EU post-independence"

... and try and make some points like a grown up? :wink:

The SNP are making no sense to me , so calling it nonsense is quite appropriate and hardly a playground insult , its an observation :wink::agree::greengrin:aok:

[easty]

The SNP are making no sense to me , so calling it nonsense is quite appropriate and hardly a playground insult , its an observation :wink::agree::greengrin:aok:

By that rationale...everything you've said is nonsense. :greengrin

[OsloHibs]

As a neutral looking in, I do think they talk much nonsense with the whole independence issue.
It's a nice thought to want to be like Norway, but they should look to Ireland more for the realistic country Scotland could be.. Although I know many won't want to take on the Euro.

[makaveli1875]

By that rationale...everything you've said is nonsense. :greengrin

It might be but im not the 1st minister of Scotland so me talking nonsense isn't such a big problem for the Scottish Electorate

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As a neutral looking in, I do think they talk much nonsense with the whole independence issue.
It's a nice thought to want to be like Norway, but they should look to Ireland more for the realistic country Scotland could be.. Although I know many won't want to take on the Euro.

The problem is policy retro-fitting.

Logically, a party shpuld start with a problem, identify what they see as a desirable outcome and then work out how that can be achieved, and in so doing identify their policies.

The SNP (and others) effectively start with their solution (independence) and then try amd work back to apply that solution to every problem, whether it works or doesnt.

Their laser-like focus on indy is in many ways a big strength for the nats, but in certain situations it leads them to have to take strange positions or jump about a bit.

[fulshie]

All I've been mostly reading on this thread is pretty much political party bashing. There is no doubt that Scotland isn't in a great position at the moment but, is any other UK country. Yes, the SNP at the moment seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place as far as brexit is concerned but, look at the state of the NHS in England and even more so in Wales, at least ours is JUST got our heads above water. Then have a look at the mess the English and Welsh education system is in regarding grammer v comprehensive schools are concerned, its a mess and Justine Greening is already in the firing line over this. Our educating system isn't perfect either, there is no doubt about it but, there has been signs of improvement with the latest figures just released stating literacy improvements. No we have issues up here there is no doubt but, it isn't any worse than anywhere else in the UK.

[OsloHibs]

The problem is policy retro-fitting.

Logically, a party shpuld start with a problem, identify what they see as a desirable outcome and then work out how that can be achieved, and in so doing identify their policies.

The SNP (and others) effectively start with their solution (independence) and then try amd work back to apply that solution to every problem, whether it works or doesnt.

Their laser-like focus on indy is in many ways a big strength for the nats, but in certain situations it leads them to have to take strange positions or jump about a bit.

Yes this is what I see too. The problems go to the back of the queue and only the benefits to the front. And many fall for it.. Everytime!

[DaveF]

It might be but im not the 1st minister of Scotland so me talking nonsense isn't such a big problem for the Scottish Electorate

It is, however, a problem for those of us who like to look in on this forum only to read your petty dross. You come across as a bitter troll.

As others have said, try a grown up approach. You do nothing for this forum except drive me further away than ever from voting labour again.

[makaveli1875]

It is, however, a problem for those of us who like to look in on this forum only to read your petty dross. You come across as a bitter troll.

As others have said, try a grown up approach. You do nothing for this forum except drive me further away than ever from voting labour again.

ok so calling out SNP bull**** is trolling . Calling out tory/labour bull**** is praiseworthy ?

is that how it works on here :confused:

[Slavers]

ok so calling out SNP bull**** is trolling . Calling out tory/labour bull**** is praiseworthy ?

is that how it works on here :confused:

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yes this is what I see too. The problems go to the back of the queue and only the benefits to the front. And many fall for it.. Everytime!

I dont like the phrase fall for it - it suggests being duped, which i genuinely dont think parties set out to do.

The SNP have been a highly strategic, focused and slick election machine in recent years, modelled very much on the new labour approach. Strict discipline, well funded, good people wih a unwavering focus on what they wanted to achieve - and most importantly - how it would be achieved.

I think under sturgeon, they have lost some of that sure footedness amd broad appeal, they have lost quite a few of the key advisers and strategists from salmond's time, and the indyref result and the WM success actually helped muddy the water about how they could achieve their goal.

Ad they worked this out, the time marches on and as with every party of government, they hollow-out their own reserves of talented people and vision amd their record is chipped-away at by the atttition of run of the mill problems of governing that you can no longer blame on your predecessors.

I think its clear the SNP are starting to suffer from these favtors now. The problem is with such extensive gains into non-traditional nat territory, they are more vulnerable to losses which can create a sense of decline or crisis.

They arent there yet, but they have already fallen backward at Holyrood, and are likely to do so again at Westminster, amd while the council elections went well, they did miss a few of their main objectives.

Apols, a very long winded way of saying that i dont think people were wrong to back the SNP - they were head amd shoulders better than anyone when they came into power full of ideas, and ambition and energy. But they cant sustain it, no party can.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.

The zeal of the convert.

[High-On-Hibs]

The opposition parties ramble on about the SNPs apparent obsession with independence, because it suits their narrative to do so. They even made the local elections all about "stopping another referendum", while the SNP and the Scottish Greens actually focused on local policies.

I will be voting SNP next month, because I know what their policies are. I haven't a clue what Scottish Labours, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats policies are. Every leaflet I get through my door from them is about "stopping the SNP". Nothing else.

Of course the SNP will talk about independence, they are the "national" party of Scotland. But rather than talking up unity and the benefits of Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom, the unionist parties are all about stopping independence, they have nothing else to offer and it's boring.

[High-On-Hibs]

As a neutral looking in, I do think they talk much nonsense with the whole independence issue.
It's a nice thought to want to be like Norway, but they should look to Ireland more for the realistic country Scotland could be.. Although I know many won't want to take on the Euro.

Ireland, the strongest economy in the European Union? Yes please!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The opposition parties ramble on about the SNPs apparent obsession with independence, because it suits their narrative to do so. They even made the local elections all about "stopping another referendum", while the SNP and the Scottish Greens actually focused on local policies.

I will be voting SNP next month, because I know what their policies are. I haven't a clue what Scottish Labours, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats policies are. Every leaflet I get through my door from them is about "stopping the SNP". Nothing else.

Of course the SNP will talk about independence, they are the "national" party of Scotland. But rather than talking up unity and the benefits of Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom, the unionist parties are all about stopping independence, they have nothing else to offer and it's boring.

What are the SNPs policies for this election? When was their manifesto published?

[pacoluna]

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.
Your chronic cult patter is tiresome. It's some size of a cult considering they have been in gvment for ten years. Or is it just nationalists that you group as a cult.

[High-On-Hibs]

What are the SNPs policies for this election? When was their manifesto published?

Their manifesto will barely differ from their 2015 manifesto and nor should it. They'll be a stronger commitment to education and the NHS but the manifesto will read pretty much the same overall.

Or are you suspecting major changes?

[High-On-Hibs]

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.

Not sure about a cult following, but we certainly have a kilt following. :aok:

On a more serious note, if you want to talk about "cult followings" look no further than Ruth Davidson and her band of masonic orangemen which she continues to pander to with her anti-IRA sentiments.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Their manifesto will barely differ from their 2015 manifesto and nor should it. They'll be a stronger commitment to education and the NHS but the manifesto will read pretty much the same overall.

Or are you suspecting major changes?

Probably not - im not sure anyone has had time for major changes - amd it certainly worked well last time!

[High-On-Hibs]

Probably not - im not sure anyone has had time for major changes - amd it certainly worked well last time!

2 years is hardly enough time to effect change in a country, particuarly as a minority administration. However, this is a General Election, not a Scottish Election, it's about Scotlands influence at Westminster, which has always been next to zero.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

2 years is hardly enough time to effect change in a country, particuarly as a minority administration. However, this is a General Election, not a Scottish Election, it's about Scotlands influence at Westminster, which has always been next to zero.

I dont follow? I was saying that the SNP manifesto from 2015 worked very well, so it wont need much changing.

I disagree on the second point, which is clearly nonsense.

[High-On-Hibs]

I dont follow? I was saying that the SNP manifesto from 2015 worked very well, so it wont need much changing.

I disagree on the second point, which is clearly nonsense.

I thought you were being sarcastic. :wink:

If you disagree with my second point, then by all means, prove me wrong. Show me what a great influence Scotland has at Westminster.

[Slavers]

Not sure about a cult following, but we certainly have a kilt following. :aok:

On a more serious note, if you want to talk about "cult followings" look no further than Ruth Davidson and her band of masonic orangemen which she continues to pander to with her anti-IRA sentiments.

I should have added that some SNP supporters seem determined to drag the question of Scottish Independence onto sectarian battle lines.

[DaveF]

ok so calling out SNP bull**** is trolling . Calling out tory/labour bull**** is praiseworthy ?

is that how it works on here :confused:

I didn't say anything of the sort and fine well you know it.

You carry on with your silly wee digs, given you seem incapable of reasoned, mature debate. I'll stick you on ignore.

[High-On-Hibs]

I should have added that some SNP supporters seem determined to drag the question of Scottish Independence onto sectarian battle lines.

Really? Can you actually give any examples of this?

[grunt]

... it's about Scotlands influence at Westminster, which has always been next to zero.


I disagree on the second point, which is clearly nonsense.It's a shame you disagree, since an understanding of this point is crucial to understanding Scotland's desire for Independence. The fact that you disagree speaks volumes.

[pacoluna]

I should have added that some SNP supporters seem determined to drag the question of Scottish Independence onto sectarian battle lines.
yup unlike Ruth :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

Really? Can you actually give any examples of this?

There are lots on here if you read back on related threads saying things like all the Huns, Rangers, Orangemen vote Tory and back the union.

[High-On-Hibs]

There are lots on here if you read back on related threads saying things like all the Huns, Rangers, Orangemen vote Tory and back the union.

I haven't seen any comments suggesting that "all" Rangers fans back the union, i'll be happy to wait while you dig out an example though. :aok:

As for all Orangemen backing the union, I think that goes without saying, don't you?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a shame you disagree, since an understanding of this point is crucial to understanding Scotland's desire for Independence. The fact that you disagree speaks volumes.

So you agree that scotlands influence has 'always been next to zero'?

For a start its a strawman argument, as 'scotland' in the terms you mean doesnt exist at Westminster. And even if it did, hownwould scotlands will be represented better? Thete are numerous views in scotland, places of wealth, deprivation, industry, finance, urban, rural.

It gets to the heart of the SNPs conceit that they think they speak for Scotland. They dont, dont even speak for a majority of MSPs.

But scottish MPs, ergo Scottish voters have clearly had influence. Whether or not it has had enough influence, is obviously a moot point. But to say it has always had next to zero is clearly wrong.

The tories thread has a discussiob aboit how scottish MPs helped bring down a labour government in 1979. Quite influential, no?

There have been numerous Scottish PMs, cabinet members, some very influential thinkers.

The creation of the labour party was heavily influenced by Scots. Id say that was quite important.

The West Lothian Question, named after a scottish MP represrnting a scottish constituency.

And in my lifetime, two scots have led the lib dems, and two have led the labour party (three if you count tony blair). Alastair Campbell is scottish, as are many commentators, journalists and others in and around Westminster.

And of course there are 56 SNP MPs who are doing a sterling job of holding the UK govt to account, arent they?

[pacoluna]

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.


British patriotism is nice and unifying, whilst Scottish nationalism is bad and by definition divisive. :confused:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a shame you disagree, since an understanding of this point is crucial to understanding Scotland's desire for Independence. The fact that you disagree speaks volumes.

Also, you assume i disagree because i dont understand, a very arrogant assumption.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

British patriotism is nice and unifying, whilst Scottish nationalism is bad and by definition divisive. :confused:

So are you and the SNP Scottish patriots?

[pacoluna]

So are you and the SNP Scottish patriots?

I would like to think we all are. Its others who claim nationalism is divisive while carrying the baton for British nationalism.

[grunt]

Also, you assume i disagree because i dont understand, a very arrogant assumption.That's true, it was arrogant.

[Slavers]

I haven't seen any comments suggesting that "all" Rangers fans back the union, i'll be happy to wait while you dig out an example though. :aok:

As for all Orangemen backing the union, I think that goes without saying, don't you?

Yill be waiting along time! But its there if you want to look.

It goes without saying but some are saying it and making a point of talking about independence along these lines.

[makaveli1875]

I would like to think we all are. Its others who claim nationalism is divisive while carrying the baton for British nationalism.

British nationalism has divided the nation every bit as much as Scottish Nationalism.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would like to think we all are. Its others who claim nationalism is divisive while carrying the baton for British nationalism.

Yeah, kida agree with that!

[grunt]

So you agree that scotlands influence has 'always been next to zero'?

For a start its a strawman argument, as 'scotland' in the terms you mean doesnt exist at Westminster. And even if it did, hownwould scotlands will be represented better? Thete are numerous views in scotland, places of wealth, deprivation, industry, finance, urban, rural.

It gets to the heart of the SNPs conceit that they think they speak for Scotland. They dont, dont even speak for a majority of MSPs.

But scottish MPs, ergo Scottish voters have clearly had influence. Whether or not it has had enough influence, is obviously a moot point. But to say it has always had next to zero is clearly wrong.

The tories thread has a discussiob aboit how scottish MPs helped bring down a labour government in 1979. Quite influential, no?

There have been numerous Scottish PMs, cabinet members, some very influential thinkers.

The creation of the labour party was heavily influenced by Scots. Id say that was quite important.

The West Lothian Question, named after a scottish MP represrnting a scottish constituency.

And in my lifetime, two scots have led the lib dems, and two have led the labour party (three if you count tony blair). Alastair Campbell is scottish, as are many commentators, journalists and others in and around Westminster.

And of course there are 56 SNP MPs who are doing a sterling job of holding the UK govt to account, arent they?You're an argumentative soul aren't you?
I expect that you're deliberately misinterpreting the original comment.
Yes, individual Scots have been "influential" in Westminster politics.
But the point which was being made - as I'm sure you know, since you're not daft - is that despite the SNP having 56 out of 59 Scottish MPs, despite Scotland not having voted for the UK Government in what, 50 years, despite Scotland voting very clearly Remain, we can't stop the UK Government from riding roughshod over the Scottish electorate, to the expected decimation of the Scottish economy and the further impoverishment of Scottish people.

That's what I mean about having zero influence.

[grunt]

British nationalism has divided the nation every bit as much as Scottish Nationalism.Nice to be able to agree with you on something.

[High-On-Hibs]

For a start its a strawman argument, as 'scotland' in the terms you mean doesnt exist at Westminster.

But you don't view this as a problem?


It gets to the heart of the SNPs conceit that they think they speak for Scotland. They dont, dont even speak for a majority of MSPs.

True, they do however speak for 56 out of the 59 Scottish MPs at Westminster.


But scottish MPs, ergo Scottish voters have clearly had influence. Whether or not it has had enough influence, is obviously a moot point. But to say it has always had next to zero is clearly wrong.

Nobody said they haven't had influence. "Next to" zero, isn't the same as zero.


The tories thread has a discussiob aboit how scottish MPs helped bring down a labour government in 1979. Quite influential, no?
Actually, Labour could have saved themselves without the influence of the SNP. They brought themselves down.


There have been numerous Scottish PMs, cabinet members, some very influential thinkers.

And in my lifetime, two scots have led the lib dems, and two have led the labour party (three if you count tony blair). Alastair Campbell is scottish, as are many commentators, journalists and others in and around Westminster.

How would you say these "Scots" have positively influenced Scotlands place in the United Kingdom?


The creation of the labour party was heavily influenced by Scots. Id say that was quite important.

Indeed. But where is that party now? The Labour Party of today couldn't be any further from their original purpose. They may have been started by the Scots, but they have been changed by the wider UK electorate, as to no longer represent what they were created to represent.


The West Lothian Question, named after a scottish MP represrnting a scottish constituency.

Which is based on the untruth that there are political matters that impact England only. All political matters impacting England also effect the wider UK. For example, if the UK Government decides to spend less money on the NHS in England, then this impacts the level of funding available for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. An issue that EVEL completely ignores.


And of course there are 56 SNP MPs who are doing a sterling job of holding the UK govt to account, arent they?

The SNP, like every other MP that Scotland sends down to Westminster can only talk up Scotlands case. I've lost count of the amount of times i've heard Scottish MPs being jeered at Westminster whenever they try to make their own points. Perhaps you don't watch PMQs or the House of Commons live? But the way our MPs are treated down there is nothing short of abhorrent.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's true, it was arrogant.

No worries!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're an argumentative soul aren't you?
I expect that you're deliberately misinterpreting the original comment.
Yes, individual Scots have been "influential" in Westminster politics.
But the point which was being made - as I'm sure you know, since you're not daft - is that despite the SNP having 56 out of 59 Scottish MPs, despite Scotland not having voted for the UK Government in what, 50 years, despite Scotland voting very clearly Remain, we can't stop the UK Government from riding roughshod over the Scottish electorate, to the expected decimation of the Scottish economy and the further impoverishment of Scottish people.

That's what I mean about having zero influence.

Says the person arguing with me...!

[OsloHibs]

Ireland, the strongest economy in the European Union? Yes please!

If you & others feel this way too, then why won't the SNP discuss why being a small country under the Euro currency would be an option for them? I don't understand either!

[grunt]

Says the person arguing with me...!Well yes, but my point was that I think you understood the point that High-On-Hibs was making, but deliberately misinterpreted it in order to continue your argument. So, arguing for argument sake. You've still not addressed his point.

[High-On-Hibs]

If you & others feel this way too, then why won't the SNP discuss why being a small country under the Euro currency would be an option for them? I don't understand either!

It would be the honest arguement for them to make. Unfortunately in politics, the honest argument isn't necessarily the best argument to make, not if the majority of the electorate will automatically denounce you for suggesting it.

Truth is only beneficial in politics if the electorate actually believe it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But you don't view this as a problem?



True, they do however speak for 56 out of the 59 Scottish MPs at Westminster.



Nobody said they haven't had influence. "Next to" zero, isn't the same as zero.


Actually, Labour could have saved themselves without the influence of the SNP. They brought themselves down.




How would you say these "Scots" have positively influenced Scotlands place in the United Kingdom?



Indeed. But where is that party now? The Labour Party of today couldn't be any further from their original purpose. They may have been started by the Scots, but they have been changed by the wider UK electorate, as to no longer represent what they were created to represent.



Which is based on the untruth that there are political matters that impact England only. All political matters impacting England also effect the wider UK. For example, if the UK Government decides to spend less money on the NHS in England, then this impacts the level of funding available for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. An issue that EVEL completely ignores.



The SNP, like every other MP that Scotland sends down to Westminster can only talk up Scotlands case. I've lost count of the amount of times i've heard Scottish MPs being jeered at Westminster whenever they try to make their own points. Perhaps you don't watch PMQs or the House of Commons live? But the way our MPs are treated down there is nothing short of abhorrent.

Im not going to argue all of these points, as i said originally they are moot, there is no right answer.

But the point is, i dont think that amoint of influence can be characterised as 'next to zero'.

With regard to your first point, I dont know if i have a problem with thay anymore - i used to care, but what difference does it really make? I suppose i just became a bit jaded and fed-up with the party politics, and afyer the indy ref i made my peace with the decision. I get that to many the opposite happened, but being involved for a while before the indy ref, and observing scottish politics before and after, we seem to habe gone very much backwards amd all this new found fervour and certainty has turned me off.

I always believed an indy scotland woyld have a tough time on creation, some hard years amd a big shock before settling down and doing fine. I used to think it was a proce worth paying. Now i dont.

Lastly, the divisions since indyref habe shown that we are jusy as capable of creating a divided and fractious society as the english, amd i fear am indy Scotland would be riven from the start, and so would contain within it the seeds of its own discontent, and be deformed from birth.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Well yes, but my point was that I think you understood the point that High-On-Hibs was making, but deliberately misinterpreted it in order to continue your argument. So, arguing for argument sake. You've still not addressed his point.

Its why we are all here!

I thougt that the comment was obtuse and untrue, so i argued against it.

I have an aversion to posts that assert certainty where there is none - its just a personal peeve, and so i coulsnt help but challenge it.

I like a discussion of course, but hopefully we all come out of it better (either by clarifying our existing beliefs or challenging them and taking different views)

[High-On-Hibs]

Im not going to argue all of these points, as i said originally they are moot, there is no right answer.

But the point is, i dont think that amoint of influence can be characterised as 'next to zero'.

I dont know if i have a problem with thay anymore - i used to care, but what difference does it really make? I suppose i just became a bit jaded and fed-up with the party politics, and afyer the indy ref i made my peace with the decision. I get that to many the opposite happened, but being involved for a while before the indy ref, and observing scottish politics before and after, we seem to habe gone very much backwards amd all this new found fervour and certainty has turned me off.

I always believed an indy scotland woyld have a tough time on creation, some hard years amd a big shock before settling down and doing fine. I used to think it was a proce worth paying. Now i dont.

Lastly, the divisions since indyref habe shown that we are jusy as capable of creating a divided and fractious society as the english, amd i fear am indy Scotland would be riven from the start, and so would contain within it the seeds of its own discontent, and be deformed from birth.

Don't you see the driving wedge of division in this country being pushed by the tories though? People talk about the SNP being the biggest divisive factor of the union. I couldn't disagree more. It has always been the tories in my view. They make no real effort to reconcile Scotland as an equal member of the UK. Instead, their attitude is more across the lines of "shut up and get on with it". Not allowing Scotland to have any say over brexit negotiations, when it will probably impact Scotland most of all is completely unacceptable in any true democracy.

I really don't see the positive case of Scotland remaining part of this. The "lets just go along with it" attitude of unionism doesn't sell it for me at all and I can't understand why that's good enough for anyone else.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Don't you see the driving wedge of division in this country being pushed by the tories though? People talk about the SNP being the biggest divisive factor of the union. I couldn't disagree more. It has always been the tories in my view. They make no real effort to reconcile Scotland as an equal member of the UK. Instead, their attitude is more across the lines of "shut up and get on with it". Not allowing Scotland to have any say over brexit negotiations, when it will probably impact Scotland most of all is completely unacceptable in any true democracy.

I really don't see the positive case of Scotland remaining part of this. The "lets just go along with it" attitude of unionism doesn't sell it for me at all and I can't understand why that's good enough for anyone else.

I see it, but i dont agree that it will go away with indy. Of anything it coyld get worse, as scotland could become almost a mirror image of england, with one large area of huge deprivation sucking in resources, at 'the expense' of the more affluent parts. There is already am east / west divide in cultural terms, i fear that would replace it.

Yeah, brexit is a bad one, but i dont value the EU higher than i value the UK. Of course others feel differently which i uninderstand.

I see the english like an errant brother. Annoying, frustrating and at times they can push your buttons like nobody else, bit weve been though a lot together and i wpuld back them in a fight over anyone else, within reason!

And the more indy has become partisan (it never uaed to be suxh a left/right thing - that defo happened towards the end of the ref campaign, which i didnt like and was never comfortable with) the less appealing it looks to me, and the less im prepared to suffer the first few difficult years. It used to feel much more like a cause. Now it feels like a grubby political campaign like amy other, and i know enough od politicians amd campaigns to distrust those.

[High-On-Hibs]

I see it, but i dont agree that it will go away with indy. Of anything it coyld get worse, as scotland could become almost a mirror image of england, with one large area of huge deprivation sucking in resources, at 'the expense' of the more affluent parts. There is already am east / west divide in cultural terms, i fear that would replace it.

Yeah, brexit is a bad one, but i dont value the EU higher than i value the UK. Of course others feel differently which i uninderstand.

I see the english like an errant brother. Annoying, frustrating and at times they can push your buttons like nobody else, bit weve been though a lot together and i wpuld back them in a fight over anyone else, within reason!

And the more indy has become partisan (it never uaed to be suxh a left/right thing - that defo happened towards the end of the ref campaign, which i didnt like and was never comfortable with) the less appealing it looks to me, and the less im prepared to suffer the first few difficult years. It used to feel much more like a cause. Now it feels like a grubby political campaign like amy other, and i know enough od politicians amd campaigns to distrust those.

Sorry, I can't agree. Several years of hardship is a small price to pay. I can only see divisions between Scotland and England getting worse in political union. It has been a growing trend for decades and I can't see that suddenly coming to an end. I don't think the situation is partisan by choice. We can either send a clear message to Westminster, or we can choose not to do anything at all. But those who believe that doing nothing will simply mean business as usual couldn't be more wrong, we're heading into very dark political and economic times. There's a reason why the tories are so quiet about this election. They have a highly unpopular set of plans which they do not want to speak about. So they're remaining quiet, knowing that they will get the mandate they need for these plans from an unsuspecting electorate.

[pacoluna]

I see it, but i dont agree that it will go away with indy. Of anything it coyld get worse, as scotland could become almost a mirror image of england, with one large area of huge deprivation sucking in resources, at 'the expense' of the more affluent parts. There is already am east / west divide in cultural terms, i fear that would replace it.

Yeah, brexit is a bad one, but i dont value the EU higher than i value the UK. Of course others feel differently which i uninderstand.

I see the english like an errant brother. Annoying, frustrating and at times they can push your buttons like nobody else, bit weve been though a lot together and i wpuld back them in a fight over anyone else, within reason!

And the more indy has become partisan (it never uaed to be suxh a left/right thing - that defo happened towards the end of the ref campaign, which i didnt like and was never comfortable with) the less appealing it looks to me, and the less im prepared to suffer the first few difficult years. It used to feel much more like a cause. Now it feels like a grubby political campaign like amy other, and i know enough od politicians amd campaigns to distrust those.
As mentioned before politics of nostalgia is dangerous and bias

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As mentioned before politics of nostalgia is dangerous and bias

Possibly, that isnt my biggest motivation and i would advocate that even if we were indy. But you are probably right.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sorry, I can't agree. Several years of hardship is a small price to pay. I can only see divisions between Scotland and England getting worse in political union. It has been a growing trend for decades and I can't see that suddenly coming to an end. I don't think the situation is partisan by choice. We can either send a clear message to Westminster, or we can choose not to do anything at all. But those who believe that doing nothing will simply mean business as usual couldn't be more wrong, we're heading into very dark political and economic times. There's a reason why the tories are so quiet about this election. They have a highly unpopular set of plans which they do not want to speak about. So they're remaining quiet, knowing that they will get the mandate they need for these plans from an unsuspecting electorate.

Fair enough mate, your scenario is as likely as mine.

I dont agree about the dark econonic plans, but i do understand what you mean about small price to pay. I iaed to think similar, but there comes a point at which that price becomes too high.

Your other point is real fundies v gradualists stuff. I was more of a fundy myself when i was younger, but had become more gradualist, mostly because i felt that indy was a process, not am event. I still kinda think that, without some major (federal) reforms of the UK.

[OsloHibs]

It would be the honest arguement for them to make. Unfortunately in politics, the honest argument isn't necessarily the best argument to make, not if the majority of the electorate will automatically denounce you for suggesting it.

Truth is only beneficial in politics if the electorate actually believe it.

Yes exactly this.. That is what drives me crazy about Scotland!!!!!! You like to make life hard for yourselves!

[Speedy]

In many ways the SNP have a cult like following from some, in their mind the party can do no wrong whatsoever and are beyond criticism.

Independence to them has no pitfalls and is the answer to everything that society asks.

That's the big problem with politics in general, people blindly follow and take the stance that a particular party can do no right/no wrong. It then descends onto petty name calling and strawman arguments.

[lord bunberry]

Threads like this are depressing. I think I'll give the holy ground a miss until after the election.

[OsloHibs]

Threads like this are depressing. I think I'll give the holy ground a miss until after the election.

I like reading everyones views.. It so much better here than on twitter. Now that is depressing!

[steakbake]

Threads like this are depressing. I think I'll give the holy ground a miss until after the election.

Kind of what I'm doing on and off!

[weecounty hibby]

The zeal of the convert.

What about those of us who have believed in an independent Scotland all of our lives, and I do mean all of my life. My first clear memory of wondering why my country was governed by another was when I was about four or five years old. A feeling that has never left me. I have never voted for another party other than the SNP and have never missed any election for the last 30 years and I never will until Scotland is allowed to govern herself When that happens I will probably vote for whatever a Scottish Labour Party would look like. The SNP is a means to an end for me. I want independence and they are the party that will get it. If Scottish Labour threw their weight behind independence they would maybe get my vote.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What about those of us who have believed in an independent Scotland all of our lives, and I do mean all of my life. My first clear memory of wondering why my country was governed by another was when I was about four or five years old. A feeling that has never left me. I have never voted for another party other than the SNP and have never missed any election for the last 30 years and I never will until Scotland is allowed to govern herself When that happens I will probably vote for whatever a Scottish Labour Party would look like. The SNP is a means to an end for me. I want independence and they are the party that will get it. If Scottish Labour threw their weight behind independence they would maybe get my vote.

So then clearly that comment doesnt apply to you. Im not sure why you would think that it does.

[weecounty hibby]

So then clearly that comment doesnt apply to you. Im not sure why you would think that it does.

I didn't think it did. Just wondered about your view really. I disagree with pretty much all you say but I do find it interesting and at least you don't revert to the left name calling like some of the others. Except of course trying to claim folk are SNP plants ;-)

[ronaldo7]

Wee Nicky doesnt know if she's coming or going just now .

We need a referendum because were being dragged out of the EU #castironmandate

Now she's not even sure an independent Scotland will join the EU :rolleyes:

The General Election is not about independence says Nicola

The general Election is all about independence says Alex :rolleyes:

The General Election is about independence says Nicola after consulting Alex :aok:

now its back to not being about independence :rolleyes:

The general election is now about giving Nicky a seat at the Brexit negotiating table #hurrdtorreeebrixit

It's just all nonsense right enough:aok:

The list of SNP government achievements is long and wide-ranging. After a decade of Westminster cuts, the SNP government is working harder than ever to protect the most vulnerable in our society and deliver the best public services anywhere in the UK.
*
Record health funding - over £13 billion in 2017, £3.6 billion more than when we took office.
Higher exam passes up by a third since 2007, and we’re investing record amounts in schools to close the attainment gap. £120 million will go direct to schools this year alone.
Free tuition protected, saving students in Scotland up to £27,000 compared to the cost of studying in England.
Free, high quality childcare has been increased to 16 hours a week for all 3 and 4 year olds – up from 12.5 hours in 2007 – and extended to 2 year olds from low income households, saving families up to £2,500 per child per year in total.
We exceeded our world-leading target to reduce emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 – six years early.*
More people in employment in Scotland than the pre-recession high point, outperforming the UK on female employment and inactivity rates.
We’ve kept Council Tax down. Bills are lower in Scotland than in England - by between £300 and £400.
Prescription charges abolished. In England, patients are forced to pay £8.60 per item.
We’re leading the way on fair pay. Scotland has the highest proportion of employees in the UK paid at least the Living Wage.
Over 60,000 affordable homes completed, with a further 22,000 households supported into homeownership.
16 and 17 year olds now have the right to vote in Scottish Parliament and local government elections.
To help protect jobs and businesses through the recession, we’ve slashed or abolished business rates for 100,000 premises – saving small businesses £1.2 billion to date.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 42 years.
Scotland, with one of the most progressive equal marriage laws in the world, has been rated the best country in Europe for LGBTI equality and human rights for the second year running.
We’re standing up for Scottish industry. We have secured a future for Scottish steel, the last remaining aluminium smelter at Lochaber, and Ferguson shipyard too.
*
A healthier Scotland*
The number of nurses, doctors and dentists working in Scotland’s NHS has increased. Staffing is at record high levels, up more than 12,200 in the last ten years.
Patient satisfaction continues to increase with 90 per cent of NHS Scotland patients rating their care and treatment as good or excellent.
Scotland’s A&E services are the best performing in the UK.
We have brought forward plans for a £5 million expansion of the Golden Jubilee Hospital - the first part of our plan to invest £200 million in a network of elective and diagnostic treatment centres to help meet the needs of an ageing population.
Over £5 billion has been invested in Scotland’s health infrastructure since 2007, including the South Glasgow Hospitals and Emergency Care Centre in Aberdeen.
We’ve kept healthcare local. That means A&E units have been saved, children’s cancer services and neurosurgery units protected, and maternity units kept open.
Nurses in Scotland are better paid than anywhere else in the UK. A nurse in Scotland, at Band 5, is paid between £225 and £309 more than their English counterparts.
We’re supporting the lowest paid workers in our NHS by delivering the real Living Wage. Entry level pay for NHS support staff, Band 1, in Scotland is £881 higher than England, and over £1,300 higher than Northern Ireland.
We’re recruiting more GPs by increasing the number of training places from 300 to 400 each year.
We’re training more paramedics, with a commitment to train 1,000 more by the end of this Scottish Parliament term.
IVF is being expanded to more families – making access in Scotland the fairest and most generous in the UK.
Our hospitals are cleaner and safer. In over 65s cases of C.Diff are down 86 per cent, and cases of MRSA are down 93 per cent.
Almost £40 million has been invested to raise public awareness of cancer, and catch it sooner, driving earlier diagnosis in a range of cancers.
The risk from cervical cancer for the next generation of young women has been cut by providing the HPV vaccine for girls in second year of secondary school.
Scrapping parking charges at all NHS-run hospital car parks has saved patients and staff around £27 million.
Scotland has the highest number of GPs per head of population in the UK, and we’ve made sure more practices are now open in the evenings and at weekends.
Scotland was the first country in the UK to have a mental health waiting times target, and spending on mental health services in Scotland will exceed £1 billion for the first time in 2017-18.
A record nine in ten people are now registered with an NHS dentist – up from just 52 per cent when we took office.
More funding than ever before is being provided to support carers and young carers, with investment of over £122 million in a range of programmes since 2007.
Irresponsible alcohol discounts in supermarkets and off-licences are now banned, and we’ve raised the legal age for buying tobacco to 18.
We’ve banned smoking in any vehicle carrying anyone under 18.
Everyone who uses social care services can now control their individual care budget through the Self-directed Support Act.
We’ve provided extra funding for Scotland’s veteran charities, and ensured our ex-service men and women receive priority treatment in the NHS and other services.

[ronaldo7]

A smarter Scotland
All children in primaries 1 to 3 – around 135,000 pupils – are now benefiting from free school meals, saving families around £380 per child per year.
We have launched the Scottish Attainment Challenge, and investment in that programme will be £750 million over the life of this Parliament.
Total revenue spending on schools has risen by at least £220 million since 2006-07, and spending per pupil is higher in Scotland than England.
More school pupils are now in well-designed, accessible and inclusive learning environments. Between 2007 and 2016, 651 schools were built or refurbished - twice as many as the previous Labour/LibDem administrations.
Since the introduction of the Gaelic Schools Capital Fund in 2008, the number of young people in Gaelic Medium Education has increased nationally by 32 per cent.
The percentage of pupils leaving school with at least one Higher level or equivalent qualification has increased by almost 45 per cent under the SNP.
The First Minister’s Reading Challenge, which aims to encourage children to read for pleasure, has been opened to all primary school pupils after the success of the initial scheme for primaries 4 to 7.
The Disabled Students Allowance has been protected and bursaries for students have been maintained in Scotland, while the Tories have abolished both elsewhere in the UK.
*We’ve expanded the Education Maintenance Allowance in Scotland – now scrapped south of the border – to support even more school pupils and college students from low income families.
Over 117,000 full-time equivalent Scottish Government-funded college places are now being provided – exceeding our 2011 manifesto commitment to maintain 116,000 places.
We have invested over £550 million in college estates between 2007 and 2015, £250 million more than the previous Labour/Lib Dem administrations.
We’re supporting a further £300 million of investment to deliver new campuses at City of Glasgow, Inverness and Ayrshire Colleges. And Forth Valley and Fife Colleges will share £140 million for new campuses too.
We’re providing our further education students with record levels of support of £106 million - up 34 per cent under the SNP.
The number of full-time college students completing recognised higher education qualifications is at an all time high.
Full-time college students in Scotland can now benefit from the highest bursary of anywhere in the UK. A record number of Scots have been supported into university, and young people from the most deprived areas are now more likely to study at university.
The number of graduates from Scottish universities going into work or further study is among the highest in the UK.
Graduates from Scottish universities are earning more than their counterparts in other UK nations.
The poorest university students who are living at home are benefiting from a minimum income guarantee of £7,625 per year – the highest in the UK.
Since 2007, the number of female entrants in STEM subjects at Scottish universities has increased by 26 per cent in first degree courses and 47 per cent in postgraduate courses.*

A wealthier Scotland
Youth unemployment has hit its lowest rate since records began, and is the second lowest in the EU.
Scotland is the top destination, outside of London, for foreign direct investment.
Today Scotland has the highest pay anywhere in the UK outside of London and the South East.
Productivity growth in Scotland is four times as fast as the UK – as measured by output per hour worked. Since the SNP came to office, productivity has increased by 9.4 per cent, while stagnating for the UK as a whole.
Around 200,000 young people have had the opportunity to undertake a Modern Apprenticeship since 2007. And by 2020, a further 30,000 opportunities will be available every year.
Scotland has the highest house-building rate in the UK. Since 2007, we have built 41,000 more homes than if we’d matched the lower rate in England - that’s the equivalent of a new town the size of Paisley.
Councils have been enabled to build new homes for the first time in years – with 7,169 new council homes delivered.
15,500 social houses for rent have been safeguarded by ending Right to Buy.
We’re taking action to stimulate Scotland’s economy following the result of the EU referendum. This includes bringing forward £100 million of government spending on infrastructure, and a £500 million Scottish Growth Scheme to support businesses - particularly start-up companies - with the potential to grow and export more.
£500 million has been committed to stimulate and support economic growth in Glasgow and the Clyde Valley.
£125 million has been allocated through the Aberdeen City Region Deal to stimulate and support economic growth in the city, alongside an additional £254 million for infrastructure projects in the North-east.
We are investing £135 million in the Inverness and Highland City Region Deal – two and a half times the UK Government investment.
By the end of 2021 we will have committed £1 billion to tackling fuel poverty, and over one million energy efficiency measures have already been installed in almost one million households across Scotland.
We’ve helped people into homeownership through the Land and Buildings Transaction Tax, which has lifted 15,000 households out of tax compared to Stamp Duty in the rest of the UK.
Public sector procurement has been simplified, with more small and medium-sized enterprises now competing for and winning public sector contracts.
The number of registered businesses in Scotland has reached 173,995, the highest number on record.
Scotland’s international exports - valued at £28.7 billion in 2015 - are up 41 per cent under the SNP.
Scotland’s tourism industry is going from strength to strength – with 14 million tourists visiting Scotland in 2015.
Enterprise and development spending per head in Scotland is almost double that of the UK.
We won new powers over tax and social security, and protected Scotland’s budget from a £7 billion cut by the Treasury over the financial arrangements enabling new powers.

[ronaldo7]

A fairer Scotland
From summer 2017, all babies in Scotland are to be provided with a Nordic-style ‘baby box’ in a bid to reduce infant mortality and help families at the start of a child’s life.
In 2011, we became the first government in the UK to pay the Living Wage to our staff.
We have already ensured that nobody in Scotland has to pay the Bedroom Tax. And we will use new powers to effectively abolish it once and for all, protecting over 70,000 households.
Over 241,000 low income households in crisis have been helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund since it was established in 2013.
1.3 million older and disabled people have benefited from free public transport through the National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme.
Around 77,000 older people in Scotland benefit from access to a wide range of personal care tasks without being charged.
Over half a million vulnerable households in Scotland – including around 190,000 pensioners and over 80,000 single parents – have been protected from UK Government cuts to Council Tax benefit.
We have introduced a Child Poverty Bill which will set targets to end child poverty by 2030, and established a new £29 million fund to tackle poverty at a grassroots level.
We have already safeguarded the rights of 2,800 of the most severely disabled by establishing the Scottish Independent Living Fund.
We’ve kept Scottish Water in public hands. Customers are now paying less for a better service – charges for the average household bill in Scotland are £38 lower than in England and Wales.
Our new employment support programmes will be on a voluntary basis and will not interact with the UK government’s punitive benefit sanctions system.
Over 300 companies have signed the Scottish Business Pledge - a voluntary code for companies to commit to policies that boost productivity, recognise fairness and increase diversity.
We are piloting a Returners programme to help women who have had career breaks back into the workplace.
We are leading a 50:50 campaign to encourage public, third and private sector companies to commit to boardroom gender equality by 2020.
We now have Scotland’s first cabinet with an equal number of women and men.
We have launched a £300,000 Sports Equality Fund with the aim of increasing women’s engagement in sport.
*
A safer Scotland
Since we took office, violent crime is down by 52 per cent, homicides are down by 52 per cent and handling offensive weapons is down by 69 per cent.
The new Scottish Crime Campus provides a focal point for excellence in intelligence-sharing, evidence gathering and forensic science to tackle serious organised crime.
Automatic early release has been ended, meaning that long-term prisoners who pose an unacceptable risk to public safety will serve their sentence in full.
The reconviction rate has been reduced to its lowest level in 18 years, thanks to tough community sentences.
£75 million has been seized from criminals and has been reinvested in community projects for young people across Scotland.
HMP Low Moss opened in March 2012 and HMP Grampian opened in March 2014, two major parts of our prison building programme.
Access to air weapons has been tightened to improve public safety.
Tackling sectarianism has been backed up with record investment.
The new Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has been created.*
Scotland has the UK’s first national action plan on human rights, showing our ambition to be an example of how to realise human rights and tackle injustice at home and abroad.

*Investing for the future
We’re investing £1 billion annually in public and sustainable transport to encourage people out of cars.
We are delivering the £1.35 billion Queensferry Crossing.
Commuters have saved around £2,000 since bridge tolls on the Forth Road Bridge and Tay Bridge were scrapped by the SNP.
We have invested twice as much per head in the rail network in Scotland than the UK Government –* £7 billion in rail since 2007.
The Borders Railway, the longest new domestic railway to be built in Britain in over 100 years, has reopened and welcomed over 1 million passengers in its first year.
A £5 billion investment programme in Scotland’s railways up to 2019 will deliver longer, greener trains, new stations, new track upgrades, more seats, and more services.
£3 billion to dual 80 miles of carriageway on the A9 Perth-Inverness, £745 million for the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, plus M8, M73 and M74 motorway improvements.
Contracts worth £97 million will protect the 150-strong workforce and create 100 new jobs at the last commercial shipyard on the Clyde.
We’ve exceeded the 2016 target to provide broadband access to 85 per cent of premises, and we’ll reach 100 per cent by 2021

[ronaldo7]

Empowering communities
Scotland’s independence referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in Scotland’s history.
We’ve launched a £200,000 Access to Politics Fund to help disabled people stand for the 2017 local government elections. And we will continue the fund for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021.
Local communities have been given a voice in the planning and delivery of local services - backed up by £20 million of funding - through the Community Empowerment Act.
The Scottish Land Fund has already helped 52 communities across the country to purchase land, with over 500,000 acres now in community ownership. And the Fund has been increased to £10 million per year.
The radical and ambitious Land Reform Act has been passed to transform rules around the ownership, accessibility and benefits of land in Scotland.

A greener Scotland
Scotland has exceeded its target to produce 50 per cent of its electricity from renewables by 2015 - with almost 60 per cent of Scotland’s electricity needs met from renewable sources.
Scotland is outperforming the UK and all but one of the EU-15 countries in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
With the support of the SNP Scottish Government, low carbon industries in Scotland and their supply chains generated almost £11 billion for the economy in 2014.
We have blocked underground coal gasification and a moratorium means fracking cannot take place in Scotland.
Scotland’s household recycling rate was 44.2 per cent in 2015 – up from around 32 per cent for municipal waste in 2007.
Carrier bag use has been reduced by 80 per cent - the equivalent of 650 million bags - in the first year of the carrier bag charge.
We’ve helped make our communities safer from flooding with investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act. And we’ve agreed a new 10 year funding strategy for flood protection, consisting of £42 million a year, aiming to protect 10,000 families across Scotland.

Supporting rural communities*
A record £1 billion has been invested in vessels, ports and ferry services since 2007 as part of our commitment to our islands and remote communities, with six ferries added to CalMac’s fleet and two new ferries due for delivery in 2018.
Road Equivalent Tariff has been rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides network, delivering significantly reduced ferry fares and the highest passenger numbers since 1997.
Residents of Caithness and north-west Sutherland, Colonsay, Islay, Jura, Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on air fares.*
With produce output worth around £2.3 billion a year and around 65,000 people directly employed, we work tirelessly to get the best deal for Scotland’s farmers, crofters and growers.*
We played a key role in reforming EU fisheries policy to bring an end to the wasteful discarding of fish at sea.
With food and drink exports valued over £4.5 billion and 14,000 new jobs estimated to be created in the sector by 2020, we strive to promote Scotland’s top quality produce.
Fares on lifeline ferry services have been frozen for 2017 for passengers, cars and commercial vehicles.
The clean, green status of our valuable food and drink sector has been protected by opting out of the cultivation of genetically modified crops in Scotland.
Scotland’s first National Marine Plan aims to achieve the sustainable development of our seas.
*
Enabling creativity and sport
Free access has been maintained to museums and galleries, with over 27 million visits to Scotland’s world class national collections since 2007.
In government we provided vital support for Scotland to welcome the world in 2014, with the staging of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.*
Since the SNP government backed the 'Daily Mile' challenge 180,000 children in over 1,000 of Scotland's primary schools now walk or run a mile each day.
98 per cent of primary and secondary schools across Scotland are now providing two hours of physical education a week – up from 10 per cent in 2005.
Over £162 million has been pumped into Scotland’s screen sector since 2007.
Over £130 million has been invested in our cultural infrastructure - including the revamped National Museum of Scotland, National Portrait Gallery, and homes for our performing companies including National Theatre of Scotland and The Royal Scottish National Orchestra.*
More than £19 million of direct investment in Edinburgh’s major festivals since 2008.
£25 million for the Victoria and Albert Museum of Design in Dundee.
1.5 million opportunities have been created for young people to take part in music and youth arts in 2015.
…but there’s still much more we want to do. Together, we will continue to shape a fairer, more successful Scotland

Happy to help, and thanks for the opportunity.:aok::greengrin:wink:

[lucky]

Cheers R zzzzzzzzzzz

[weecounty hibby]

Aye but what have the Romans ever done for us :-)) As an SNP member I get frustrated at some of the things I think we could be doing better. But it really is hard to argue that that is an impressive list of a achievements. Things could always be better but these things are all making a difference nationally and locally in my opinion

[ronaldo7]

Cheers R zzzzzzzzzzz

Happy to help bud.:aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I didn't think it did. Just wondered about your view really. I disagree with pretty much all you say but I do find it interesting and at least you don't revert to the left name calling like some of the others. Except of course trying to claim folk are SNP plants ;-)

Fair enough!

I think lifelong nationalists such as yourself a bit of a different kettle of fish from many of the newly energised converts. But that is probably a completely different thread!

[ronaldo7]

Aye but what have the Romans ever done for us :-)) As an SNP member I get frustrated at some of the things I think we could be doing better. But it really is hard to argue that that is an impressive list of a achievements. Things could always be better but these things are all making a difference nationally and locally in my opinion

Sometimes, we forget how good we really are. I'd rather keep talking Scotland up, rather than down, :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Empowering communities
Scotland’s independence referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in Scotland’s history.
We’ve launched a £200,000 Access to Politics Fund to help disabled people stand for the 2017 local government elections. And we will continue the fund for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021.
Local communities have been given a voice in the planning and delivery of local services - backed up by £20 million of funding - through the Community Empowerment Act.
The Scottish Land Fund has already helped 52 communities across the country to purchase land, with over 500,000 acres now in community ownership. And the Fund has been increased to £10 million per year.
The radical and ambitious Land Reform Act has been passed to transform rules around the ownership, accessibility and benefits of land in Scotland.

A greener Scotland
Scotland has exceeded its target to produce 50 per cent of its electricity from renewables by 2015 - with almost 60 per cent of Scotland’s electricity needs met from renewable sources.
Scotland is outperforming the UK and all but one of the EU-15 countries in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
With the support of the SNP Scottish Government, low carbon industries in Scotland and their supply chains generated almost £11 billion for the economy in 2014.
We have blocked underground coal gasification and a moratorium means fracking cannot take place in Scotland.
Scotland’s household recycling rate was 44.2 per cent in 2015 – up from around 32 per cent for municipal waste in 2007.
Carrier bag use has been reduced by 80 per cent - the equivalent of 650 million bags - in the first year of the carrier bag charge.
We’ve helped make our communities safer from flooding with investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act. And we’ve agreed a new 10 year funding strategy for flood protection, consisting of £42 million a year, aiming to protect 10,000 families across Scotland.

Supporting rural communities*
A record £1 billion has been invested in vessels, ports and ferry services since 2007 as part of our commitment to our islands and remote communities, with six ferries added to CalMac’s fleet and two new ferries due for delivery in 2018.
Road Equivalent Tariff has been rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides network, delivering significantly reduced ferry fares and the highest passenger numbers since 1997.
Residents of Caithness and north-west Sutherland, Colonsay, Islay, Jura, Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on air fares.*
With produce output worth around £2.3 billion a year and around 65,000 people directly employed, we work tirelessly to get the best deal for Scotland’s farmers, crofters and growers.*
We played a key role in reforming EU fisheries policy to bring an end to the wasteful discarding of fish at sea.
With food and drink exports valued over £4.5 billion and 14,000 new jobs estimated to be created in the sector by 2020, we strive to promote Scotland’s top quality produce.
Fares on lifeline ferry services have been frozen for 2017 for passengers, cars and commercial vehicles.
The clean, green status of our valuable food and drink sector has been protected by opting out of the cultivation of genetically modified crops in Scotland.
Scotland’s first National Marine Plan aims to achieve the sustainable development of our seas.
*
Enabling creativity and sport
Free access has been maintained to museums and galleries, with over 27 million visits to Scotland’s world class national collections since 2007.
In government we provided vital support for Scotland to welcome the world in 2014, with the staging of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.*
Since the SNP government backed the 'Daily Mile' challenge 180,000 children in over 1,000 of Scotland's primary schools now walk or run a mile each day.
98 per cent of primary and secondary schools across Scotland are now providing two hours of physical education a week – up from 10 per cent in 2005.
Over £162 million has been pumped into Scotland’s screen sector since 2007.
Over £130 million has been invested in our cultural infrastructure - including the revamped National Museum of Scotland, National Portrait Gallery, and homes for our performing companies including National Theatre of Scotland and The Royal Scottish National Orchestra.*
More than £19 million of direct investment in Edinburgh’s major festivals since 2008.
£25 million for the Victoria and Albert Museum of Design in Dundee.
1.5 million opportunities have been created for young people to take part in music and youth arts in 2015.
…but there’s still much more we want to do. Together, we will continue to shape a fairer, more successful Scotland

Happy to help, and thanks for the opportunity.:aok::greengrin:wink:


How do you reconcile keeping down council tax with your anti-austerity stance - is that not be passing on tory austerity and reducing council services to the poor and needy?

But of course nobody would deny there habe been some good ideas, initiatives and legislation from the nats.

There is a lot spin in that list too - bit every government ever, will be guilty of that.

[ronaldo7]

Keeping down council tax - would that not be passing on tory austerity and reducing council services to the poor and needy?

Oh, you're back.:greengrin

I wondered why you weren't answering my questions? Thought you had me on ignore.:wink:

In answer to your question though, fully funded. Check out SPICE.:aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Oh, you're back.:greengrin

I wondered why you weren't answering my questions? Thought you had me on ignore.:wink:

In answer to your question though, fully funded. Check out SPICE.:aok:

I never went away - Just stopped posting on that other thread - it went a bit awry!

Good to see i was missed by our friendly SNP political education officer....!!

[ronaldo7]

I never went away - Just stopped posting on that other thread - it went a bit awry!

Good to see i was missed by our friendly SNP political education officer....!!

Infinitely better than a Tory one.:wink:

I knew you couldn't answer the questions though.:na na:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Infinitely better than a Tory one.:wink:

I knew you couldn't answer the questions though.:na na:

What questions are those?

[ronaldo7]

What questions are those?

Don't bother looking:rolleyes:

It's the ones on the threads you've abandoned:wink:

Anyway, you'd better get back to the day job eh.:aok:

[Eaststand]

What about those of us who have believed in an independent Scotland all of our lives, and I do mean all of my life. My first clear memory of wondering why my country was governed by another was when I was about four or five years old. A feeling that has never left me. I have never voted for another party other than the SNP and have never missed any election for the last 30 years and I never will until Scotland is allowed to govern herself When that happens I will probably vote for whatever a Scottish Labour Party would look like. The SNP is a means to an end for me. I want independence and they are the party that will get it. If Scottish Labour threw their weight behind independence they would maybe get my vote.

Good post, and I'm with you 100% on this

GGTTH

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Don't bother looking:rolleyes:

It's the ones on the threads you've abandoned:wink:

Anyway, you'd better get back to the day job eh.:aok:

You talk in riddles sometimes mate

[Moulin Yarns]

You talk in riddles sometimes mate

Even then he still makes more sense than a lot of posters on here :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

What's wrong with people changing their minds? So what if people have been "converted" from supporting the UK system to an independent Scotland after doing their research? They are quite entitled to do so. You don't have to be a "life long" nationalist, or even a nationalist at all to support Scottish independence.

The opposition like to throw the term "nationalist" around a lot, because it paints a negative picture. Many people support Scottish independence who don't consider themselves nationalists at all, in fact, i'd say the vast majority don't.

[Swedish hibee]

A healthier Scotland!!!!!! Ronaldo7 has been drinking the sun oil I think.... A nation of fatties, that's not healthy! Even your fruit & veg comes in a packet- The Scots too lazy to cut your own.

[High-On-Hibs]

A healthier Scotland!!!!!! Ronaldo7 has been drinking the sun oil I think.... A nation of fatties, that's not healthy! Even your fruit & veg comes in a packet- The Scots too lazy to cut your own.

:faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

A healthier Scotland!!!!!! Ronaldo7 has been drinking the sun oil I think.... A nation of fatties, that's not healthy! Even your fruit & veg comes in a packet- The Scots too lazy to cut your own.


Nice stereotyping. :rolleyes:

[Swedish hibee]

Nice stereotyping. :rolleyes:

Oh come on- it was a joke. The stero type of the Scots liking a laugh is fading fast on here though, you'll be happy about that then.
Not all Swedes are blonde & sexy.. many are though. Just like many Scots are overweight.

[High-On-Hibs]

Oh come on- it was a joke. The stero type of the Scots liking a laugh is fading fast on here though, you'll be happy about that then.
Not all Swedes are blonde & sexy.. many are though. Just like many Scots are overweight.

I hear those blonde and sexy swede ladies also like fat overweight men with Scottish accents...... that's the stereotype I choose to believe anyway. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh come on- it was a joke. The stero type of the Scots liking a laugh is fading fast on here though, you'll be happy about that then.
Not all Swedes are blonde & sexy.. many are though. Just like many Scots are overweight.

The thing about jokes is... 1. they are supposed to be funny. 2. in this context, they are usually accompanied by a smile, to avoid comments being taken literally by auld pedants like me.

Besides, I thought all you Scandis had no sense of humour?


:wink:

[McD]

Happy to help bud.:aok:


Sheesh, hope your fingers have recovered from all the typing mate :greengrin

(for avoidance of doubt, that was meant in a light hearted, tongue in cheek spirit, in reference to the hard work you put into offering a very detailed response :greengrin)

[ronaldo7]

A healthier Scotland!!!!!! Ronaldo7 has been drinking the sun oil I think.... A nation of fatties, that's not healthy! Even your fruit & veg comes in a packet- The Scots too lazy to cut your own.

18616

Just taking the weight off for a moment. Back to work soon bud.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Sheesh, hope your fingers have recovered from all the typing mate :greengrin

(for avoidance of doubt, that was meant in a light hearted, tongue in cheek spirit, in reference to the hard work you put into offering a very detailed response :greengrin)

:tee hee:

[Hibrandenburg]

18616

Just taking the weight off for a moment. Back to work soon bud.:greengrin

That kind of obesity can only be achieved by eating endless amounts of Köttbullar. :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

The problem is policy retro-fitting.

Logically, a party shpuld start with a problem, identify what they see as a desirable outcome and then work out how that can be achieved, and in so doing identify their policies.

The SNP (and others) effectively start with their solution (independence) and then try amd work back to apply that solution to every problem, whether it works or doesnt.

Their laser-like focus on indy is in many ways a big strength for the nats, but in certain situations it leads them to have to take strange positions or jump about a bit.

You don't need a problem. You can have a belief in a vision of what you would like to achieve.

J

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You don't need a problem. You can have a belief in a vision of what you would like to achieve.

J

Of course, but its hard to sell a vision to a sceptical electorate who dont really trust politicians.

And the problem with the SNPs vision of indy is that to many voters, life is good already - they have the prosperous, liberal society that they want, so what can this visiob offer them that is so much better than the status quo to be worth the tumult?

Not everyone does of course, but until enough people either buy into a vision of an all things to all people utopia, or are so pissed off with the status quo that they decide to take the gamble, they wont vote for it.

The latter is far more likely to happen imo, a la brexit, and explains the SNP rise in areas of deprivation.

[JimBHibees]

Empowering communities
Scotland’s independence referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in Scotland’s history.
We’ve launched a £200,000 Access to Politics Fund to help disabled people stand for the 2017 local government elections. And we will continue the fund for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021.
Local communities have been given a voice in the planning and delivery of local services - backed up by £20 million of funding - through the Community Empowerment Act.
The Scottish Land Fund has already helped 52 communities across the country to purchase land, with over 500,000 acres now in community ownership. And the Fund has been increased to £10 million per year.
The radical and ambitious Land Reform Act has been passed to transform rules around the ownership, accessibility and benefits of land in Scotland.

A greener Scotland
Scotland has exceeded its target to produce 50 per cent of its electricity from renewables by 2015 - with almost 60 per cent of Scotland’s electricity needs met from renewable sources.
Scotland is outperforming the UK and all but one of the EU-15 countries in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
With the support of the SNP Scottish Government, low carbon industries in Scotland and their supply chains generated almost £11 billion for the economy in 2014.
We have blocked underground coal gasification and a moratorium means fracking cannot take place in Scotland.
Scotland’s household recycling rate was 44.2 per cent in 2015 – up from around 32 per cent for municipal waste in 2007.
Carrier bag use has been reduced by 80 per cent - the equivalent of 650 million bags - in the first year of the carrier bag charge.
We’ve helped make our communities safer from flooding with investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act. And we’ve agreed a new 10 year funding strategy for flood protection, consisting of £42 million a year, aiming to protect 10,000 families across Scotland.

Supporting rural communities*
A record £1 billion has been invested in vessels, ports and ferry services since 2007 as part of our commitment to our islands and remote communities, with six ferries added to CalMac’s fleet and two new ferries due for delivery in 2018.
Road Equivalent Tariff has been rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides network, delivering significantly reduced ferry fares and the highest passenger numbers since 1997.
Residents of Caithness and north-west Sutherland, Colonsay, Islay, Jura, Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on air fares.*
With produce output worth around £2.3 billion a year and around 65,000 people directly employed, we work tirelessly to get the best deal for Scotland’s farmers, crofters and growers.*
We played a key role in reforming EU fisheries policy to bring an end to the wasteful discarding of fish at sea.
With food and drink exports valued over £4.5 billion and 14,000 new jobs estimated to be created in the sector by 2020, we strive to promote Scotland’s top quality produce.
Fares on lifeline ferry services have been frozen for 2017 for passengers, cars and commercial vehicles.
The clean, green status of our valuable food and drink sector has been protected by opting out of the cultivation of genetically modified crops in Scotland.
Scotland’s first National Marine Plan aims to achieve the sustainable development of our seas.
*
Enabling creativity and sport
Free access has been maintained to museums and galleries, with over 27 million visits to Scotland’s world class national collections since 2007.
In government we provided vital support for Scotland to welcome the world in 2014, with the staging of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.*
Since the SNP government backed the 'Daily Mile' challenge 180,000 children in over 1,000 of Scotland's primary schools now walk or run a mile each day.
98 per cent of primary and secondary schools across Scotland are now providing two hours of physical education a week – up from 10 per cent in 2005.
Over £162 million has been pumped into Scotland’s screen sector since 2007.
Over £130 million has been invested in our cultural infrastructure - including the revamped National Museum of Scotland, National Portrait Gallery, and homes for our performing companies including National Theatre of Scotland and The Royal Scottish National Orchestra.*
More than £19 million of direct investment in Edinburgh’s major festivals since 2008.
£25 million for the Victoria and Albert Museum of Design in Dundee.
1.5 million opportunities have been created for young people to take part in music and youth arts in 2015.
…but there’s still much more we want to do. Together, we will continue to shape a fairer, more successful Scotland

Happy to help, and thanks for the opportunity.:aok::greengrin:wink:

Yeah but apart from that. :greengrin

What have the Romans ever done for us?

[G B Young]

SNP getting a bit creative with their campaign literature according to this report:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/doctor-accuses-snp-of-making-false-election-claims-over-nhs-1-4447467

...while this probably won't play out well for them with constituents. Bad timing for her just ahead of the election and I recall in my own constituency of Edinburgh South in 2015 how the SNP candidate quickly fell from grace after some insulting tweets about the elderly came to light. It may not have been decisive but it certainly helped to ensure Ian Murray retained his seat as Scotland's only Labour MP.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/tasmina-ahmed-sheikh-probe-is-over-trust-fund-1-4447742

[Geo_1875]

SNP getting a bit creative with their campaign literature according to this report:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/doctor-accuses-snp-of-making-false-election-claims-over-nhs-1-4447467

I wonder if she chaired on of the sub-groups for the 2 year Review of Maternity Services organised by the Scottish Government, report was published earlier this year. She certainly wasn't Chair of the overall review. Maybe she just set up her own local review and didn't tell anybody.

...while this probably won't play out well for them with constituents. Bad timing for her just ahead of the election and I recall in my own constituency of Edinburgh South in 2015 how the SNP candidate quickly fell from grace after some insulting tweets about the elderly came to light. It may not have been decisive but it certainly helped to ensure Ian Murray retained his seat as Scotland's only Labour MP.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/tasmina-ahmed-sheikh-probe-is-over-trust-fund-1-4447742

I've not read a full report of the police inquiry but that article DOES NOT state that Ms Ahmed-Sheikh is under direct investigation.

[marinello59]

I've not read a full report of the police inquiry but that article DOES NOT state that Ms Ahmed-Sheikh is under direct investigation.

It says she is a signatory so she is under direct investigation. In saying that Nicola Sturgeon is correct to stand by her, the mischief making from the other parties shouldn't have much effect on her electoral chances. I suspect it will turn out to be nothing more than an administrative error.
What did you think of Dr Monaghan's lies on his election pamphlets though? I'm surprised that those who regularly pick up on stuff like this have been struck strangely dumb.:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

What's wrong with people changing their minds? So what if people have been "converted" from supporting the UK system to an independent Scotland after doing their research? They are quite entitled to do so. You don't have to be a "life long" nationalist, or even a nationalist at all to support Scottish independence.

The opposition like to throw the term "nationalist" around a lot, because it paints a negative picture. Many people support Scottish independence who don't consider themselves nationalists at all, in fact, i'd say the vast majority don't.


This is easily one of my top twenty favourite threads on .net.

Like a number of others I'm heartily sick of the politicians and parties but the smell of imminent crashing and burning in the air is satisfying.

I love the observation above. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist, what is?

[High-On-Hibs]

This is easily one of my top twenty favourite threads on .net.

Like a number of others I'm heartily sick of the politicians and parties but the smell of imminent crashing and burning in the air is satisfying.

I love the observation above. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist, what is?

How would you define a person who isn't of Scottish nationality who supports Scottish Independence? A Scottish Nationalist? :confused:

[One Day Soon]

How would you define a person who isn't of Scottish nationality who supports Scottish Independence? A Scottish Nationalist? :confused:


You haven't answered my question. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist (perhaps better described as a Nationalist), what is?

[High-On-Hibs]

You haven't answered my question. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist (perhaps better described as a Nationalist), what is?


An internationalist? Many people in Scotland want this country to be outwards looking, not inwards looking like the UK.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I do enjoy watching many on the left wing of nationlism squirm at the thought they are nationalists. Its real cognitive dissonance stuff.

I dont see the problem with being a nationalist, personally.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

An internationalist? Many people in Scotland want this country to be outwards looking, not inwards looking like the UK.

What does that even mean?

It seems to me to be a soundbite that has lost any meaning it ever had.

[pacoluna]

You haven't answered my question. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist (perhaps better described as a Nationalist), what is?

*civic nationalist

[High-On-Hibs]

What does that even mean?

It seems to me to be a soundbite that has lost any meaning it ever had.

Nationalism is patriotism (despite what Ruthie says).

You can support a nations sovereignty for reasons that have nothing to do with patriotic feelings. There are people who are not Scottish or have any patriotic feeling towards Scotland who have their own personal valid reasons for supporting independence. They certainly don't identify themselves as nationalistic.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nationalism is patriotism (despite what Ruthie says).

You can support a nations sovereignty for reasons that have nothing to do with patriotic feelings. There are people who are not Scottish or have any patriotic feeling towards Scotland who have their own personal valid reasons for supporting independence. They certainly don't identify themselves as nationalistic.

Now we are getting on to self identification... are they male, female or non-binary, non-patriotic nationalists?

[Just Alf]

Part of the issue re Nationalist/Unionist naming is, for many, it's negatively coloured by what went on in Northern Ireland.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

*civic nationalist

I get that, and i kinda agree with it. But i do still think its a valid discussion to have.

Here is a question- how does civic nationalism fit with the SNP govt promoting the use of gaelic?

On the face of it, that is quite an ethnic nationalist move i would say?

Just to reiterate, i dont see anything wrong with nationalism / patriotism, im just curious how those who do reconcile these things.

[Swedish hibee]

18616

Just taking the weight off for a moment. Back to work soon bud.:greengrin

Didn't recognize you without a waving of your Saltire flag.. An essential of SNP fanatics I thought!!
😂And I'll put a laugh face as to not upset anyone that I'm stero typing again.

[Speedy]

Part of the issue re Nationalist/Unionist naming is, for many, it's negatively coloured by what went on in Northern Ireland.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I would agree that both nationalist and unionist carry negative connotations.

[Speedy]

You haven't answered my question. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist (perhaps better described as a Nationalist), what is?


The question implies everyone is either a nationist or a unionist. Is that always true?

If not, then it makes sense that you can support one or the other without being denied as such.

[JeMeSouviens]

You haven't answered my question. If supporting Scottish independence isn't the definition of being a nationalist (perhaps better described as a Nationalist), what is?



nationalist
NOUN

1 A person who advocates political independence for a country.
‘a Scottish nationalist’

1.1 A person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others

Happy to help (well, me and the OED). I consider myself a nationalist under 1 but certainly not 1.1.

[Geo_1875]

It says she is a signatory so she is under direct investigation. In saying that Nicola Sturgeon is correct to stand by her, the mischief making from the other parties shouldn't have much effect on her electoral chances. I suspect it will turn out to be nothing more than an administrative error.
What did you think of Dr Monaghan's lies on his election pamphlets though? I'm surprised that those who regularly pick up on stuff like this have been struck strangely dumb.:greengrin

I'm still torn on who's "lying" here. The SG instigated a national review of maternity services a couple of years ago which reported early this year. She wasn't involved in this, as far as I'm aware. If she is chairing a local review as a follow-up to the national review how can she claim there is no SG involvement? If it's an independent local review why is she wasting time and effort?

[marinello59]

I'm still torn on who's "lying" here. The SG instigated a national review of maternity services a couple of years ago which reported early this year. She wasn't involved in this, as far as I'm aware. If she is chairing a local review as a follow-up to the national review how can she claim there is no SG involvement? If it's an independent local review why is she wasting time and effort?

I have just re-read that and it's an odd one right enough.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I have just re-read that and it's an odd one right enough.

I think he used her photo, implying she endorsed the policy and therefore giving it credibility.

Hardly crime of the century, but not ideal.

[RyeSloan]

An internationalist? Many people in Scotland want this country to be outwards looking, not inwards looking like the UK.

Give us some metrics then that prove this is a fact and not just a nonsense soundbite.

[High-On-Hibs]

Give us some metrics then that prove this is a fact and not just a nonsense soundbite.

Can you do so in reverse? Prove that Scotland's desire for independence is based on nationalistic values as opposed to constitutional ones.

[RyeSloan]

Can you do so in reverse? Prove that Scotland's desire for independence is based on nationalistic values as opposed to constitutional ones.

I'll take that as nonsense soundbite then [emoji23]

[High-On-Hibs]

I'll take that as nonsense soundbite then [emoji23]

So you can't then? That's ok, you only had to say. :rolleyes:

[RyeSloan]

So you can't then? That's ok, you only had to say. :rolleyes:

Oh man...or should I say straw man! [emoji38]

[Hibrandenburg]

I do enjoy watching many on the left wing of nationlism squirm at the thought they are nationalists. Its real cognitive dissonance stuff.

I dont see the problem with being a nationalist, personally.

Same with the Unionist logo. That makes a few squirm. Even more so than the word Nationalist. The SNP have at least kept the word in their name where as the tories have dropped Unionist even though it's still in their official name.

[High-On-Hibs]

Same with the Unionist logo. That makes a few squirm. Even more so than the word Nationalist. The SNP have at least kept the word in their name where as the tories have dropped Unionist even though it's still in their official name.

To be fair to the tories.... they still keep that nationalistic British flag in their logo. Using UKIP to hide the fact that they are a British Nationalist Party was a stroke of genius.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Same with the Unionist logo. That makes a few squirm. Even more so than the word Nationalist. The SNP have at least kept the word in their name where as the tories have dropped Unionist even though it's still in their official name.

Why are you mentioning the tories? This thread is about the snp...

In all seriousness, im sure there are, and im sure you enjoy watching them squirm amd employ all sorts of intellectual gymnastics amd contortions to try and solve the cognitive dissonance they feel.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why are you mentioning the tories? This thread is about the snp...

In all seriousness, im sure there are, and im sure you enjoy watching them squirm amd employ all sorts of intellectual gymnastics amd contortions to try and solve the cognitive dissonance they feel.

To be fair I only mentioned the tories in reference to the SNP. But I do think it's silly to exclude comparing all parties even if the thread title suggests it's only about one particular party. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

How would you define a person who isn't of Scottish nationality who supports Scottish Independence? A Scottish Nationalist? :confused:

I like this from the Washington post on the New Scottish Nationalism.:wink:

18619

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I like this from the Washington post on the New Scottish Nationalism.:wink:

18619

I agree with that for the most part, although some of it is qyite puff piece - is that a letter or opinion piece in the Washington Post - the party, bit not all of the supporters, and like that. There are plenty of crackpots in the membership, you see them all at their party conferences (especially in the bars afterwards, after a few pints!)

But, you habe to admit the pushing of gaelic across the country does suggest the promotion of am ethnic Scottish nationalism, dont you thinl?

[ronaldo7]

I agree with that for the most part, although some of it is qyite puff piece - is that a letter or opinion piece in the Washington Post - the party, bit not all of the supporters, and like that. There are plenty of crackpots in the membership, you see them all at their party conferences (especially in the bars afterwards, after a few pints!)

But, you habe to admit the pushing of gaelic across the country does suggest the promotion of am ethnic Scottish nationalism, dont you thinl?

For once, we're "mostly" agreed:greengrin

It's an opinion piece.

Agreed on the crackpots, not so many now though.

We should embrace Gaelic, and all who want to practice and speak it IMO, just as the Irish do.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

For once, we're "mostly" agreed:greengrin

It's an opinion piece.

Agreed on the crackpots, not so many now though.

We should embrace Gaelic, and all who want to practice and speak it IMO, just as the Irish do.:wink:

Ok, in the spirit of entente, well just agree to agree!

[judas]

It's nonsense to suggest your summery is accurate.
For the first time in many years there is no need for big debates it's all been done to death.
Pick your party place your vote.
For clarity I will be voting SNP 😁😁

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

Ive voted snp in all scottish elections to date and in the last gen election and the council elections that have just passed.

I do think the SNP are getting into a wee bit of a pickle over what the various elections are about and how our EU ambitions will play out.

[Geo_1875]

Ive voted snp in all scottish elections to date and in the last gen election and the council elections that have just passed.

I do think the SNP are getting into a wee bit of a pickle over what the various elections are about and how our EU ambitions will play out.

I didn't see any mention of Independence in SNP Council Election flyers. Just all the others.

[marinello59]

I didn't see any mention of Independence in SNP Council Election flyers. Just all the others.


Saw it mentioned on the Tory flyers. It's the main reason for the SNP's existence so they don't have to mention it all the time. (The pretence that everybody else brings it up excpet themselves is ludicrous.) Didn't see it on anyone elses.

[Geo_1875]

Saw it mentioned on the Tory flyers. It's the main reason for the SNP's existence so they don't have to mention it all the time. (The pretence that everybody else brings it up excpet themselves is ludicrous.) Didn't see it on anyone elses.

I don't know where you live but in Edinburgh Drum Brae the Libs SLAB and Tories all mentioned that they would fight against a second independence referendum. Thought it was a bit strange for a council election.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't know where you live but in Edinburgh Drum Brae the Libs SLAB and Tories all mentioned that they would fight against a second independence referendum. Thought it was a bit strange for a council election.

So do SNP councillors not suppprt, and fight for independence?

[CropleyWasGod]

So do SNP councillors not suppprt, and fight for independence?

It's not their job. We don't pay them to do that, and we shouldn't be voting for them on the basis of their views on independence. If they want to "fight for" independence, they do it in their own time, not in time we're paying for.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's not their job. We don't pay them to do that, and we shouldn't be voting for them on the basis of their views on independence. If they want to "fight for" independence, they do it in their own time, not in time we're paying for.

You are of course correct. But its not an answer to the question.

Incidentally, brexit isnt the FMs job, either is telling the israeli ambassador what they think about the conflict with the Palestinians, but they presume to do it nonetheless.

[One Day Soon]

I didn't see any mention of Independence in SNP Council Election flyers. Just all the others.


No wonder, its beginning to cost the SNP votes. That's why Elsie is toning it down too.

[Moulin Yarns]

No wonder, its beginning to cost the SNP votes. That's why Elsie is toning it down too.

:confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

:confused:

I think it's Jimmy Krankie's name when he goes out in a dress on a Saturday night. :cb

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's Jimmy Krankie's name when he goes out in a dress on a Saturday night. :cb

Elsie Krankie? still :confused:

[Just Alf]

And here's me thinking we'd got any from the playground stuff as well.... Oh well... Xx

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Geo_1875]

So do SNP councillors not suppprt, and fight for independence?

The ones I know do but not on council time. Tory/SLab/Lib all mentioned that they would actively "fight" against a 2nd independence referendum in their campaign literature. I really can't recall their views on schools, roads and the environment.

[G B Young]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/wings-over-scotland-demands-10k-over-kezia-dugdale-column-1-4449833

Whether you deem his comments homophobic or not, they're most certainly deeply unpleasant and offensive. The guy should simply apologise and be done with it instead of arrogantly assuming he has a cast-iron right to a pay-off from Kezia Dugdale. The reason Nicola Sturgeon is reluctant to distance herself from him is because a lot of her MSPs are fans of his blog.

[Mr Grieves]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/wings-over-scotland-demands-10k-over-kezia-dugdale-column-1-4449833

Whether you deem his comments homophobic or not, they're most certainly deeply unpleasant and offensive. The guy should simply apologise and be done with it instead of arrogantly assuming he has a cast-iron right to a pay-off from Kezia Dugdale. The reason Nicola Sturgeon is reluctant to distance herself from him is because a lot of her MSPs are fans of his blog.

Get on with the day job of running the country, Nicola. But...But you also need to deal with every single internet troll, Nicola...

Go to twitter and search Sturgeon and any derogatory term you can think of to see how much abuse she gets.

There's bams on all sides, so any politician could be faced with the same questions. It was a completely ridiculous subject for Dugdale to bring up in FMQs.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thought it was a strange line of questioning for FMQs.

The guy at WoS does seem like a bit of a bell-end though. Has he not been in controversy before?

[Pretty Boy]

Thought it was a strange line of questioning for FMQs.

The guy at WoS does seem like a bit of a bell-end though. Has he not been in controversy before?

I stopped actively reading WoS when he described Liverpool fans as '****s' in relation to Hillsborough. He later 'clairified' his comments by basically saying everyone else is wrong and I'm right.

There's really no need to read WoS anyway, both Bella Caledonia and Common Spacee are far better examples of new media. Stuart Campbell is undoubtedly an intelligent guy who has a firm grasp on the real mechanics of politics in Scotland. He's also an egotistical troll when it suits him who would be right at home with any tabaloid commentator when it comes to creating controversy as and when the fancy takes him.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I stopped actively reading WoS when he described Liverpool fans as '****s' in relation to Hillsborough. He later 'clairified' his comments by basically saying everyone else is wrong and I'm right.

There's really no need to read WoS anyway, both Bella Caledonia and Common Spacee are far better examples of new media. Stuart Campbell is undoubtedly an intelligent guy who has a firm grasp on the real mechanics of politics in Scotland. He's also an egotistical troll when it suits him who would be right at home with any tabaloid commentator when it comes to creating controversy as and when the fancy takes him.

Ive never really read it, but the hillsborough thing rings a bell.

[JimBHibees]

Get on with the day job of running the country, Nicola. But...But you also need to deal with every single internet troll, Nicola...

Go to twitter and search Sturgeon and any derogatory term you can think of to see how much abuse she gets.

There's bams on all sides, so any politician could be faced with the same questions. It was a completely ridiculous subject for Dugdale to bring up in FMQs.

Couldn't agree more and as Sturgeon said a smokescreen re Labour tying up with the Tories in Aberdeen. I think there is definitely a vile campaign against Nicola Sturgeon who I would assume gets more vile abuse than anyone else in Scottish politics at present

[Mr Grieves]

Thought it was a strange line of questioning for FMQs.

The guy at WoS does seem like a bit of a bell-end though. Has he not been in controversy before?

He is an egotistical bell end. He can make valid contributions to the political debate, but he's also expressed some controversial personal views. Bringing him up at FMQs was just ridiculous though, it's playground stuff and pretty much sums up Kezia's leadership.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

He is an egotistical bell end. He can make valid contributions to the political debate, but he's also expressed some controversial personal views. Bringing him up at FMQs was just ridiculous though, it's playground stuff and pretty much sums up Kezia's leadership.

Agree.

Its not the kind of thing to bring up at FMQs, amd i dont think the FM can be responsible for that.

I didnt notice if she flicked through her folder when answering or not, but id be surprised if her team had even included ammo on that in her briefing.

[One Day Soon]

According to this former Special Advisor to Alex Salmond it would appear that everything isn't awesome under the SNP, far from it in fact.


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/alex-bell/429005/alex-bell-snps-10-years-power-looking-like-lost-decade/

And here's the article:

ALEX BELL: SNP’s 10 years in power are looking more like a lost decade


“That is why, on this 10-year anniversary, I promise the people of Scotland that we will never stop working hard to make Scotland the best country it can be”

So said Nicola Sturgeon this week, presuming that Scotland had made progress over the last 10 years of SNP rule and would continue to do so.

Yet evidence is now emerging that the last 10 years were more like a “lost decade” of stagnation.

It raises the possibility that everything that has happened since devolution has been ineffective – that the policies of our main political parties had no effect on the welfare or wealth of the nation.

Evidence is a rare commodity in Scottish politics – we tend to talk in lists of achievements, implying that activity must translate into effect.

For example, if you ask the Scottish Government what they have done for the economy, they will give you a list mentioning the small business bonus.

This is policy which exempts businesses with a turnover of less than £15,000 per annum from paying business rates.

The problem is that there is no evidence for the effect of the small business bonus – we don’t know if it’s good, bad or indifferent.

Paying less or no tax sounds good – but it may simply have been a giveaway of no use to the economy.

Different ways

This lack of evidence has long dogged Scotland – we do things, then we do different things, often swayed by international examples but are very poor at methodically tracking our own policies, or building policies around the evidence.

A 10-year anniversary is time to check on progress – we can track how things have performed over a decade and use the indicators which were cited in the first place.

The new Scottish Government under Alex Salmond set out a series of targets for Scotland. They are contained in the Government Economic Strategy of November 2007.

This document represented the very heart of Nationalist thinking about how Scotland should change.

The first target was to match UK and EU economic performance levels.

The thinking was driven by the fact Scotland has lagged for decades behind the rest of the UK and other EU nations in terms of growth.

However, 10 years later, the data showed Scottish growth has matched the UK’s for only 12 out of 40 quarters (of a year) and is currently behind.

In 2007, the Scottish Government wanted Scotland to rank in the top quartile of productivity as measured by the OECD.

No change

Over the last 10 years Scotland’s productivity fell and then recovered but is exactly where it was a decade ago.

Another target was that Scotland should maintain its position as having the highest employment rate of any UK member state – 10 years later, it has fallen behind England as a trend but the latest figures show us slightly above.

Next on the list was improving the employment rate to that of the more successful New Zealand.

The gap is exactly the same today as it was in 2007.

Lastly, the fresh-faced SNP government of 2007 wanted to boost population growth to the EU average – and on that we have succeeded, exceeding the average by a wee bit (less than 0.1 percentage point)

Regrettably, this is likely to fall back as Brexit progresses.

Other data says that over 10 years Scotland has fallen in global education rankings, crime is (slightly) increasing, and longevity is static (the poor still die younger than the rich).

The evidence appears to show that a decade of SNP rule has at best done nothing and at worst slightly damaged the country.

If we were having a useful election, this would be centre stage – not as a means to knock the SNP, though no doubt that would happen – but as a proof that the largely consensual, small “c” conservative policies pursued since devolution haven’t fundamentally altered Scotland at all.

We have done different things to the rest of the UK but these have largely been in the realm of reducing charges to services (ending bridge tolls, free prescriptions, elderly care, tuition fees) and we reorganised institutions.

However, we haven’t taken any bold policy decision, such as to renationalise utilities or change the tax system and the evidence shows we haven’t closed the poverty gap, redistributed wealth, improved education or educated more poor people.

Devastating

This is devastating – given the opportunity to govern ourselves, we have done plenty of nice things but nothing to alter the fundamentals.

The core “Scottish” problems of chronic urban poverty and a slow economy are as they were in 2007 and pretty much as they were in 1997, when we voted for Holyrood.

None of what has been said in this election signals change is about to come.

Scotland is approaching, if not already in, a crisis of stagnation – at such times nations need big ideas, brave decisions and bold leadership.

The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done to date hasn’t worked.

[Just Alf]

Excellent article, read it earlier and really shows why independence is the way forward.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Speedy]

According to this former Special Advisor to Alex Salmond it would appear that everything isn't awesome under the SNP, far from it in fact.


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/alex-bell/429005/alex-bell-snps-10-years-power-looking-like-lost-decade/

And here's the article:

ALEX BELL: SNP’s 10 years in power are looking more like a lost decade


“That is why, on this 10-year anniversary, I promise the people of Scotland that we will never stop working hard to make Scotland the best country it can be”

So said Nicola Sturgeon this week, presuming that Scotland had made progress over the last 10 years of SNP rule and would continue to do so.

Yet evidence is now emerging that the last 10 years were more like a “lost decade” of stagnation.

It raises the possibility that everything that has happened since devolution has been ineffective – that the policies of our main political parties had no effect on the welfare or wealth of the nation.

Evidence is a rare commodity in Scottish politics – we tend to talk in lists of achievements, implying that activity must translate into effect.

For example, if you ask the Scottish Government what they have done for the economy, they will give you a list mentioning the small business bonus.

This is policy which exempts businesses with a turnover of less than £15,000 per annum from paying business rates.

The problem is that there is no evidence for the effect of the small business bonus – we don’t know if it’s good, bad or indifferent.

Paying less or no tax sounds good – but it may simply have been a giveaway of no use to the economy.

Different ways

This lack of evidence has long dogged Scotland – we do things, then we do different things, often swayed by international examples but are very poor at methodically tracking our own policies, or building policies around the evidence.

A 10-year anniversary is time to check on progress – we can track how things have performed over a decade and use the indicators which were cited in the first place.

The new Scottish Government under Alex Salmond set out a series of targets for Scotland. They are contained in the Government Economic Strategy of November 2007.

This document represented the very heart of Nationalist thinking about how Scotland should change.

The first target was to match UK and EU economic performance levels.

The thinking was driven by the fact Scotland has lagged for decades behind the rest of the UK and other EU nations in terms of growth.

However, 10 years later, the data showed Scottish growth has matched the UK’s for only 12 out of 40 quarters (of a year) and is currently behind.

In 2007, the Scottish Government wanted Scotland to rank in the top quartile of productivity as measured by the OECD.

No change

Over the last 10 years Scotland’s productivity fell and then recovered but is exactly where it was a decade ago.

Another target was that Scotland should maintain its position as having the highest employment rate of any UK member state – 10 years later, it has fallen behind England as a trend but the latest figures show us slightly above.

Next on the list was improving the employment rate to that of the more successful New Zealand.

The gap is exactly the same today as it was in 2007.

Lastly, the fresh-faced SNP government of 2007 wanted to boost population growth to the EU average – and on that we have succeeded, exceeding the average by a wee bit (less than 0.1 percentage point)

Regrettably, this is likely to fall back as Brexit progresses.

Other data says that over 10 years Scotland has fallen in global education rankings, crime is (slightly) increasing, and longevity is static (the poor still die younger than the rich).

The evidence appears to show that a decade of SNP rule has at best done nothing and at worst slightly damaged the country.

If we were having a useful election, this would be centre stage – not as a means to knock the SNP, though no doubt that would happen – but as a proof that the largely consensual, small “c” conservative policies pursued since devolution haven’t fundamentally altered Scotland at all.

We have done different things to the rest of the UK but these have largely been in the realm of reducing charges to services (ending bridge tolls, free prescriptions, elderly care, tuition fees) and we reorganised institutions.

However, we haven’t taken any bold policy decision, such as to renationalise utilities or change the tax system and the evidence shows we haven’t closed the poverty gap, redistributed wealth, improved education or educated more poor people.

Devastating

This is devastating – given the opportunity to govern ourselves, we have done plenty of nice things but nothing to alter the fundamentals.

The core “Scottish” problems of chronic urban poverty and a slow economy are as they were in 2007 and pretty much as they were in 1997, when we voted for Holyrood.

None of what has been said in this election signals change is about to come.

Scotland is approaching, if not already in, a crisis of stagnation – at such times nations need big ideas, brave decisions and bold leadership.

The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done to date hasn’t worked.

Not sure what to take from that article to be honest.

Given the recession of 2008/2009 I'd struggle to find any entity who's reality has been in line with 2007 expectations.

[Hibrandenburg]

Excellent article, read it earlier and really shows why independence is the way forward.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

:agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

According to this former Special Advisor to Alex Salmond it would appear that everything isn't awesome under the SNP, far from it in fact.


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/alex-bell/429005/alex-bell-snps-10-years-power-looking-like-lost-decade/

And here's the article:

ALEX BELL: SNP’s 10 years in power are looking more like a lost decade


“That is why, on this 10-year anniversary, I promise the people of Scotland that we will never stop working hard to make Scotland the best country it can be”

So said Nicola Sturgeon this week, presuming that Scotland had made progress over the last 10 years of SNP rule and would continue to do so.

Yet evidence is now emerging that the last 10 years were more like a “lost decade” of stagnation.

It raises the possibility that everything that has happened since devolution has been ineffective – that the policies of our main political parties had no effect on the welfare or wealth of the nation.

Evidence is a rare commodity in Scottish politics – we tend to talk in lists of achievements, implying that activity must translate into effect.

For example, if you ask the Scottish Government what they have done for the economy, they will give you a list mentioning the small business bonus.

This is policy which exempts businesses with a turnover of less than £15,000 per annum from paying business rates.

The problem is that there is no evidence for the effect of the small business bonus – we don’t know if it’s good, bad or indifferent.

Paying less or no tax sounds good – but it may simply have been a giveaway of no use to the economy.

Different ways

This lack of evidence has long dogged Scotland – we do things, then we do different things, often swayed by international examples but are very poor at methodically tracking our own policies, or building policies around the evidence.

A 10-year anniversary is time to check on progress – we can track how things have performed over a decade and use the indicators which were cited in the first place.

The new Scottish Government under Alex Salmond set out a series of targets for Scotland. They are contained in the Government Economic Strategy of November 2007.

This document represented the very heart of Nationalist thinking about how Scotland should change.

The first target was to match UK and EU economic performance levels.

The thinking was driven by the fact Scotland has lagged for decades behind the rest of the UK and other EU nations in terms of growth.

However, 10 years later, the data showed Scottish growth has matched the UK’s for only 12 out of 40 quarters (of a year) and is currently behind.

In 2007, the Scottish Government wanted Scotland to rank in the top quartile of productivity as measured by the OECD.

No change

Over the last 10 years Scotland’s productivity fell and then recovered but is exactly where it was a decade ago.

Another target was that Scotland should maintain its position as having the highest employment rate of any UK member state – 10 years later, it has fallen behind England as a trend but the latest figures show us slightly above.

Next on the list was improving the employment rate to that of the more successful New Zealand.

The gap is exactly the same today as it was in 2007.

Lastly, the fresh-faced SNP government of 2007 wanted to boost population growth to the EU average – and on that we have succeeded, exceeding the average by a wee bit (less than 0.1 percentage point)

Regrettably, this is likely to fall back as Brexit progresses.

Other data says that over 10 years Scotland has fallen in global education rankings, crime is (slightly) increasing, and longevity is static (the poor still die younger than the rich).

The evidence appears to show that a decade of SNP rule has at best done nothing and at worst slightly damaged the country.

If we were having a useful election, this would be centre stage – not as a means to knock the SNP, though no doubt that would happen – but as a proof that the largely consensual, small “c” conservative policies pursued since devolution haven’t fundamentally altered Scotland at all.

We have done different things to the rest of the UK but these have largely been in the realm of reducing charges to services (ending bridge tolls, free prescriptions, elderly care, tuition fees) and we reorganised institutions.

However, we haven’t taken any bold policy decision, such as to renationalise utilities or change the tax system and the evidence shows we haven’t closed the poverty gap, redistributed wealth, improved education or educated more poor people.

Devastating

This is devastating – given the opportunity to govern ourselves, we have done plenty of nice things but nothing to alter the fundamentals.

The core “Scottish” problems of chronic urban poverty and a slow economy are as they were in 2007 and pretty much as they were in 1997, when we voted for Holyrood.

None of what has been said in this election signals change is about to come.

Scotland is approaching, if not already in, a crisis of stagnation – at such times nations need big ideas, brave decisions and bold leadership.

The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done to date hasn’t worked.

Interesting read.

Id say not mentioning the 2008 crash makes it slightly misleading though.

I do agree that there seems to be a reluctance to use our devolved powers to their full effect. I guess there could be different explanations for that

[Pretty Boy]

Excellent article, read it earlier and really shows why independence is the way forward.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Agreed.

If nothing else it means there can be a meaningful debate on how Scotland should be governed going into the new decade. Much of the last 5 years, if not longer, has been swallowed up by posturing over the constitutional question. The sooner it is resolved the sooner we can get on with building the country people really want Scotland to be.

Whilst I'd like that to be in an iScotland even if it's not it's still an opportunity for parties to move on and use the powers they do have to best effect without worrying about damaging support for their core obectives, nationalism and unionism respectively.

[The Green Goblin]

Threads like this are depressing. I think I'll give the holy ground a miss until after the election.

:agree:

[Mr Grieves]

Here's some SNP cheerleading

Scottish economy growth outperforms UK in the last quarter

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/scotland-escapes-recession-and-out-performs-uk-in-growth-1-4495058

And the NHS in England and Wales should learn from NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

[pacoluna]

Here's some SNP cheerleading

Scottish economy growth outperforms UK in the last quarter

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/scotland-escapes-recession-and-out-performs-uk-in-growth-1-4495058

And the NHS in England and Wales should learn from NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

Ruth will be disappointed with this, last couple of days we were supposedly moments away from recession which suits her narrative . Fed absolutely bollocks once again from the media.

Sturgeon savaged for leading Scotland to ‘BRINK OF RECESSION’ with independence demandsNICOLA Sturgeon has been accused of presiding over an “erratic and unstable” economy amid fears of looming financial crisis.

in other words - scaremongering bull****.

[High-On-Hibs]

Here's some SNP cheerleading

Scottish economy growth outperforms UK in the last quarter

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/scotland-escapes-recession-and-out-performs-uk-in-growth-1-4495058

And the NHS in England and Wales should learn from NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

No mention of this growth on the tele through. They like to point out when they think/hope we're heading into an economic recession however.

[marinello59]

No mention of this growth on the tele through. They like to point out when they think/hope we're heading into an economic recession however.

Are you just making it up as you go along?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/business/management/scotland-escapes-recession-with-0-8-economic-growth-1-4495058/amp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40498752

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/stv.tv/amp/1392831-scottish-economy-avoids-falling-back-into-recession/

[pacoluna]

Are you just making it up as you go along?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/business/management/scotland-escapes-recession-with-0-8-economic-growth-1-4495058/amp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40498752

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/stv.tv/amp/1392831-scottish-economy-avoids-falling-back-into-recession/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40440448



yup their previous headlines were just misguided :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40440448



yup their previous headlines were just misguided :rolleyes:

High on Hibs suggested that they hadn't reported the growth which they clearly have done. Which part of my post is wrong?

[pacoluna]

High on Hibs suggested that they hadn't reported the growth which they clearly have done. Which part of my post is wrong?


nothing is wrong with your post, but the prior misguided scaremongering headlines should be condemned by all.

[pacoluna]

Surely even unionists within Scotland must be fed up of the media and all party's pro union continually talking down Scotland. It's absolutely pathetic.

[High-On-Hibs]

Are you just making it up as you go along?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/business/management/scotland-escapes-recession-with-0-8-economic-growth-1-4495058/amp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40498752

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/stv.tv/amp/1392831-scottish-economy-avoids-falling-back-into-recession/

If you'd like to point out where they mentioned it on TV and not some obscure articles hidden away on the political sections of websites then i'll shut my mouth.

[ronaldo7]

Here's some SNP cheerleading

Scottish economy growth outperforms UK in the last quarter

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/scotland-escapes-recession-and-out-performs-uk-in-growth-1-4495058

And the NHS in England and Wales should learn from NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

It's nice to see the investment from the Scottish Government in Dalzell, the expansion of the aluminium smelter at Lochaber, and the manufacturing centre in Renfrewshire making a difference.

Let's hope it continues, and we can start to motor on. I'd hope the other parties can now get behind the Scottish Government and support their work.

It's a small step in the right direction, but a long road to travel yet.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If you'd like to point out where they mentioned it on TV and not some obscure articles hidden away on the political sections of websites then i'll shut my mouth.

Big news item on Reporting Scotland tonight if that helps...?

[marinello59]

If you'd like to point out where they mentioned it on TV and not some obscure articles hidden away on the political sections of websites then i'll shut my mouth.

Try watching the TV then, it was there. Reported on the radio as well. I'll enjoy the peace and quiet. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-40568413

Scotland's unemployment rate has fallen to a 25-year low, according to official figures.

The jobless rate fell to 3.8% in the period March to May, having stood at 4.5% in the previous quarter.



keep up the good work nicola hen :agree:

[pacoluna]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-40568413

Scotland's unemployment rate has fallen to a 25-year low, according to official figures.

The jobless rate fell to 3.8% in the period March to May, having stood at 4.5% in the previous quarter.



keep up the good work nicola hen :agree:


This part of the forum seems eerily quiet with regards to the SNP and Scotgov at the moment. Good news is bad news for a certain few mostly through spite.

[Colr]

This part of the forum seems eerily quiet with regards to the SNP and Scotgov at the moment. Good news is bad news for a certain few mostly through spite.

A sign of increased confidence in the Scottish economy resulting in investment and recruitment....................................... ..............................now the prospect of Indyref2 has receded(?).

[pacoluna]

A sign of increased confidence in the Scottish economy resulting in investment and recruitment....................................... ..............................now the prospect of Indyref2 has receded(?).
A totally contrasting view to that of the MSM a couple of weeks a go. The Doom merchants spin game is good I'll give you that.:greengrin

[steakbake]

A sign of increased confidence in the Scottish economy resulting in investment and recruitment....................................... ..............................now the prospect of Indyref2 has receded(?).

In less than 1month? I don't think so...

Could equally as easily be argue they're seeing the nonsense going on with Brexit and there's a possibility we'll be out of it in a few years.

[ronaldo7]

This part of the forum seems eerily quiet with regards to the SNP and Scotgov at the moment. Good news is bad news for a certain few mostly through spite.

The trains seem to be running on time too. 🚂

[marinello59]

This part of the forum seems eerily quiet with regards to the SNP and Scotgov at the moment. Good news is bad news for a certain few mostly through spite.

So people not coming on here to cheerlead for the SNP are acting out of spite. :faf:
The figures are good news. Comparing like for like across the UK it is very good news. The figures for people who are economically inactive are worrying though, it would be interesting to know why that is. Overall though it looks like devolution is doing the job it it supposed to do and has done pretty well since it was introduced.

[pacoluna]

So people not coming on here to cheerlead for the SNP are acting out of spite. :faf:
The figures are good news. Comparing like for like across the UK it is very good news. The figures for people who are economically inactive are worrying though, it would be interesting to know why that is. Overall though it looks like devolution is doing the job it it supposed to do and has done pretty well since it was introduced.

Of course devolution is working pretty well down to the fact the SNP are mitigating tory policies and "getting on with the day job". The reluctance to praise the SNP is laughable :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin its all down to devolution, nothing to do with who's in power:aok:

[marinello59]

Of course devolution is working pretty well down to the fact the SNP are mitigating tory policies and "getting on with the day job". The reluctance to praise the SNP is laughable :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin its all down to devolution, nothing to do with who's in power:aok:

I have just praised the SNP and I support Independence. I also supported devolution and wish the SNP would drop their centralist tendencies and devolve power further. Sturgeon's SNP government has on the whole been pretty disappointing though. She has neglected the day job.
If the figures had been bad you would have been on here telling us it was Westminsters fault, seems the party faithful want it both ways. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I have just praised the SNP and I support Independence. I also supported devolution and wish the SNP would drop their centralist tendencies and devolve power further. Sturgeon's SNP government has on the whole been pretty disappointing though. She has neglected the day job.
If the figures had been bad you would have been on here telling us it was Westminsters fault, seems the party faithful want it both ways. :greengrin

Which is why there is little to say:

SNP view

Unemployment up - Westminsters fault

Unemployment down - SNP doing great


Tory view

Unemployment up - SNP fault

Unemployment down - Shows the strength of the Union


Personally I don't believe politicians have that much impact on these numbers anyway...well not directly as they seem to believe. This time around it appears the lower pound and a rebound in oil and gas are being given the credit for the improvement which are determined much more by market forces than whatever Nicola or Theresa cook up as their latest whim.

It's also fair to point out that unemployment figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt as they exclude 'economically inactive' so don't accurately represent the percentage of working age adults that are not working. You then need to consider the quality of the jobs created etc etc etc.

I read somewhere recently that the governor of Hong Kong (or maybe it was Singapore) back in the day actually stopped the gathering of these types of stats to prevent his politicians from reacting to them and meddling as he believed they were simply misleading and causing bad decisions to be made...the result was better policy and less flip flopping. There may be a lesson in there somewhere with regards to how politicians use these stats to support or lampoon each other.

[pacoluna]

Which is why there is little to say:

SNP view

Unemployment up - Westminsters fault

Unemployment down - SNP doing great


Tory view

Unemployment up - SNP fault

Unemployment down - Shows the strength of the Union


Personally I don't believe politicians have that much impact on these numbers anyway...well not directly as they seem to believe. This time around it appears the lower pound and a rebound in oil and gas are being given the credit for the improvement which are determined much more by market forces than whatever Nicola or Theresa cook up as their latest whim.

It's also fair to point out that unemployment figures are to be taken with a pinch of salt as they exclude 'economically inactive' so don't accurately represent the percentage of working age adults that are not working. You then need to consider the quality of the jobs created etc etc etc.

I read somewhere recently that the governor of Hong Kong (or maybe it was Singapore) back in the day actually stopped the gathering of these types of stats to prevent his politicians from reacting to them and meddling as he believed they were simply misleading and causing bad decisions to be made...the result was better policy and less flip flopping. There may be a lesson in there somewhere with regards to how politicians use these stats to support or lampoon each other.
My point is mostly to totally disregard the scaremongering regarding SNPs "inderef obsession" as having a detrimental effect on scotland as a whole widely spread by the likes of Ruth and her chums as well as Kezia when in reality if anything its had the exact opposite effect going by their methodology to try and correlate both.

[RyeSloan]

My point is mostly to totally disregard the scaremongering regarding SNPs "inderef obsession" as having a detrimental effect on scotland as a whole widely spread by the likes of Ruth and her chums as well as Kezia when in reality if anything its had the exact opposite effect going by their methodology to try and correlate both.

As I said all politicians abuse these stats for their own benefit.

More relevant stats might be business and inward investment numbers as it is investment that drives a successful and productive economy. On that basis it's pretty hard to believe that the Nerverendum has not had some sort of impact.

That however takes us into the realms of productivity and what drives it and how that in turn creates wealth for the nation. But really few politicians even mention that no matter appear to understand it....which in turn takes me back to my disbelief that when politicians say they are going to grow the economy they have the first clue as to what that actually entails.

[ronaldo7]

As I said all politicians abuse these stats for their own benefit.

More relevant stats might be business and inward investment numbers as it is investment that drives a successful and productive economy. On that basis it's pretty hard to believe that the Nerverendum has not had some sort of impact.

That however takes us into the realms of productivity and what drives it and how that in turn creates wealth for the nation. But really few politicians even mention that no matter appear to understand it....which in turn takes me back to my disbelief that when politicians say they are going to grow the economy they have the first clue as to what that actually entails.

https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/DNWA-AMMGWU :aok:

You might have missed this one. It's not been shouted from the roof tops enough.:wink:

This one's on productivity.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2017/02/scotlands-productivity-grows-four-times-faster-than-uk/

That "neverendum" must be having an effect.

[RyeSloan]

https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/DNWA-AMMGWU :aok:

You might have missed this one. It's not been shouted from the roof tops enough.:wink:

This one's on productivity.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2017/02/scotlands-productivity-grows-four-times-faster-than-uk/

That "neverendum" must be having an effect.

Ach depends on what you read..[emoji12]

https://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/fairse/fecvol41no1/Business_investment_performance_in_Scotland.pdf


Which maybe does prove the point at least to a degree about using stats and headlines for political point scoring, or cheap Neverendum jibes [emoji23]

[ronaldo7]

Ach depends on what you read..[emoji12]

https://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/fairse/fecvol41no1/Business_investment_performance_in_Scotland.pdf


Which maybe does prove the point at least to a degree about using stats and headlines for political point scoring, or cheap Neverendum jibes [emoji23]

This article alludes to your point.:greengrin

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11329/ben-wray-scotlands-economy-wont-unlock-its-potential-until-we-move-past-groundhog-day

[Jag7]

Excellent article, read it earlier and really shows why independence is the way forward.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Independence 😂😂 they couldn't run a corner shop .. get rid of the wasteful Scottish Parliament and save us all a fortune .. do you realise before we joined the EU we had 1 Parliament that we all paid for .. now we pay for 5 .. all taking your well earned cash to do what they like wasting billions of £ . Get back to one national Parliament and save us all money !!

[CropleyWasGod]

Independence ���� they couldn't run a corner shop .. get rid of the wasteful Scottish Parliament and save us all a fortune .. do you realise before we joined the EU we had 1 Parliament that we all paid for .. now we pay for 5 .. all taking your well earned cash to do what they like wasting billions of £ . Get back to one national Parliament and save us all money !!

Independence (within the EU) would reduce that to 2, with the possibility that we would be a net beneficiary from the EU.

Are you suggesting that we also get rid of the Welsh and Northern Irish (democratically voted for, and out of "our" control) parliaments?

[Since90+2]

I think it is inevitable that Scotland will eventually become an independent country. Whether that is within the next 5 years , 10 years or 20 years is up for debate but I think its the direction of travel that we are going in.

[Just Alf]

Independence 😂😂 they couldn't run a corner shop .. get rid of the wasteful Scottish Parliament and save us all a fortune .. do you realise before we joined the EU we had 1 Parliament that we all paid for .. now we pay for 5 .. all taking your well earned cash to do what they like wasting billions of £ . Get back to one national Parliament and save us all money !!
Prat!



Now I wish I never pointed you here lol!
;-)


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Independence 😂😂 they couldn't run a corner shop .. get rid of the wasteful Scottish Parliament and save us all a fortune .. do you realise before we joined the EU we had 1 Parliament that we all paid for .. now we pay for 5 .. all taking your well earned cash to do what they like wasting billions of £ . Get back to one national Parliament and save us all money !!

If we're getting back to one national parliament on the grounds of cost saving, Edinburgh is £££££££££££ cheaper than London in all sorts of ways. :wink:

[Jag7]

If we're getting back to one national parliament on the grounds of cost saving, Edinburgh is £££££££££££ cheaper than London in all sorts of ways. :wink:

Yeah but the Edinburgh one doesn't do anything for the benefit of the country or the people that live in it !!

[Jag7]

Independence (within the EU) would reduce that to 2, with the possibility that we would be a net beneficiary from the EU.

Are you suggesting that we also get rid of the Welsh and Northern Irish (democratically voted for, and out of "our" control) parliaments?

I am .. get rid of all the devolved parliaments ,they are a waste of space . Look at the state of the Irish assembly just now... look at the SNP 's record absolutely pathetic and I voted for them the first time they gained power in Scotland, but they have shown themselves to be incompetent and just another bunch of noses in the trough ... 1 national
Parliament in Great Britain ..

[Pretty Boy]

Yeah but the Edinburgh one doesn't do anything for the benefit of the country or the people that live in it !!

That's just not true though is it? Further education and prescriptions are just 2 examples of the top of my head.

I'm no apologist for the SNP and have been happy to criticise when it's deserved but to suggest the Scottish Parliament (whoever is forming the Government) has done or does nothing for Scotland is nonsense.

[CropleyWasGod]

I am .. get rid of all the devolved parliaments ,they are a waste of space . Look at the state of the Irish assembly just now... look at the SNP 's record absolutely pathetic and I voted for them the first time they gained power in Scotland, but they have shown themselves to be incompetent and just another bunch of noses in the trough ... 1 national
Parliament in Great Britain ..

So, "we" (whoever that is) should take a unilateral decision to abolish Parliaments that the majority of people in each of those countries voted for, and want?

That's one way of achieving a single Parliament in each of those countries :greengrin

[Jag7]

So, "we" (whoever that is) should take a unilateral decision to abolish Parliaments that the majority of people in each of those countries voted for, and want?

That's one way of achieving a single Parliament in each of those countries :greengrin

Justify their existence then maybe I might agree

[CropleyWasGod]

Justify their existence then maybe I might agree
The electorates voted for them, and have shown no appetite for going back on that decision.

That's democratic justification.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[IGRIGI]

I am .. get rid of all the devolved parliaments ,they are a waste of space . Look at the state of the Irish assembly just now... look at the SNP 's record absolutely pathetic and I voted for them the first time they gained power in Scotland, but they have shown themselves to be incompetent and just another bunch of noses in the trough ... 1 national
Parliament in Great Britain ..

Living abroad it's this cringe that makes me embarrassed to say I'm Scottish, that much so I just play up on the fact my wife is Italian to deflect any question regarding my Scottish roots.

[RyeSloan]

Living abroad it's this cringe that makes me embarrassed to say I'm Scottish, that much so I just play up on the fact my wife is Italian to deflect any question regarding my Scottish roots.

What? How odd.

[HiBremian]

Independence [emoji23][emoji23] they couldn't run a corner shop .. get rid of the wasteful Scottish Parliament and save us all a fortune .. do you realise before we joined the EU we had 1 Parliament that we all paid for .. now we pay for 5 .. all taking your well earned cash to do what they like wasting billions of £ . Get back to one national Parliament and save us all money !!

Don't be so modest. If saving money is so important, abolish Westminster while you're at it and just let Brussels get on with it. Nullifies the Brexit vote at a stroke #uktoowee


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[heretoday]

The SNP seem to be running their department quite well but I wouldn't want them in charge of the whole store.

[High-On-Hibs]

I am .. get rid of all the devolved parliaments ,they are a waste of space . Look at the state of the Irish assembly just now... look at the SNP 's record absolutely pathetic and I voted for them the first time they gained power in Scotland, but they have shown themselves to be incompetent and just another bunch of noses in the trough ... 1 national
Parliament in Great Britain ..

Great idea. Let's just have a one world government led by one person, that should save us all a fair few bob. :aok:

[Geo_1875]

I am .. get rid of all the devolved parliaments ,they are a waste of space . Look at the state of the Irish assembly just now... look at the SNP 's record absolutely pathetic and I voted for them the first time they gained power in Scotland, but they have shown themselves to be incompetent and just another bunch of noses in the trough ... 1 national
Parliament in Great Britain ..

I'm calling bull**** on that one.

[Future17]

I see SNP MP Hannah Bardell wore a Scotland strip in the Commons today during PMQs. I know they've relaxed the dress code but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.

[pacoluna]

I see SNP MP Hannah Bardell wore a Scotland strip in the Commons today during PMQs. I know they've relaxed the dress code but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.

I would rather business like behaviour over business like attire every time.

[High-On-Hibs]

I see SNP MP Hannah Bardell wore a Scotland strip in the Commons today during PMQs. I know they've relaxed the dress code but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.

Did she do her job today?

[lord bunberry]

I see SNP MP Hannah Bardell wore a Scotland strip in the Commons today during PMQs. I know they've relaxed the dress code but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.
I was watching that earlier and I had to do a double take. Apparently she had been taking part in a sports day.

[Sir David Gray]

I see SNP MP Hannah Bardell wore a Scotland strip in the Commons today during PMQs. I know they've relaxed the dress code but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.

Yep ridiculous.

If I went to my work in a football top I would be sent home unpaid and told to change into acceptable work clothes.

She should have been ejected by the Speaker.

[cabbageandribs1875]

lol, good stuff hannah, anything that winds up tories is all good







p.s. good to see the utter roaster jag7 get ejected from this site :)

[High-On-Hibs]

p.s. good to see the utter roaster jag7 get ejected from this site :)

It's the SNPs authoritarian agenda! :grr:

[Future17]

Did she do her job today?

It was at PMQs so I very much doubt it.

[Slavers]

Yep ridiculous.

If I went to my work in a football top I would be sent home unpaid and told to change into acceptable work clothes.

She should have been ejected by the Speaker.

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

[pacoluna]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.
:stirrer: absolutely disgusting isn't it, with all that is going in with the UK and the despicable tories nothing is more shameful than an MP wearing a Scotland top, rees-mogg would have choked on his caviar.

[CropleyWasGod]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

Yup.

The blouse she wore over the fitba strip was just awful. I don't know if I can ever show my face in England again.

[High-On-Hibs]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

Yep, never mind the shame of rising inequality and poverty, yet another rise in retirement age and the complete shambles of brexit, all over seen by the tories.

Nope, lets get outraged over what somebody wears at work. Those are the real sort of issues we should be focusing on.

[High-On-Hibs]

It was at PMQs so I very much doubt it.

Isn't the job at PMQs to question the PM on issues impacting the whole of the UK?

What are those Scottish tory MPs doing? Seems they just want to talk down the Scottish Government at every opportunity instead.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.


is that yer best :faf:

[marinello59]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

If it had been that Ronald Macdonald style effort from a few years back I would agree with you.

[JeMeSouviens]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

You're not serious? Where's the smiley? :confused:

[ronaldo7]

Another moment of shame in a long list of shame the SNP beings to Scotland at Westminster.

Care to list yer list. 😲

[pacoluna]

Scotland rated best place in UK to start a business :aok: