SNP nonsense

[Tornadoes70]

of course he will be back, trying to win back the Gordon seat at the next GE

What a moronic crass comment to make at this time when serious allegations of a sexual nature against women have been made of which are yet to be proven or not.

Mon Scottish Labour

[cabbageandribs1875]

What a moronic crass comment to make at this time when serious allegations of a sexual nature against women have been made of which are yet to be proven or not.

Mon Scottish Labour



there's something no quite right about you, roaster poster :Ummm:...






oh and p.s. mon the red tories, whatever

[Moulin Yarns]

What a moronic crass comment to make at this time when serious allegations of a sexual nature against women have been made of which are yet to be proven or not.

Mon Scottish Labour

Who has made serious allegations of a sexual nature against women?

Mon the monster raving loony party

[Chic Murray]

What a moronic crass comment to make at this time when serious allegations of a sexual nature against women have been made of which are yet to be proven or not.

Mon Scottish Labour

Crass.

[ronaldo7]

Lesley Evans reports to Jeremy Heywood, the head of civil service. His office is in Whitehall. I don't know where he actually lives.

May I ask you a direct question? Do you believe 'London', 'Whitehall', 'Westminster', the 'head of the civil service' or whatever you want to call it is any way involved in the disciplinary investigations that Scottish government officials have carried out respecting the conduct of Alex Salmond as reported this week? And if you do believe 'London' or whatever is involved what is the nature of the involvement?

I will put my cards on the table. I think the extent of London's involvement in RACI terms will be 'informed'.

Direct answer.

Nobody knows apart from the British civil service. My interest was spiked during a couple of posts earlier in the thread where one poster alluded to Salmond taking Lesley Evans to court, and another said this was untrue.

I was wanting to ascertain what the line of command was in such matters, and it seems to be that as well as Lesley working for the SG, she also reports to London.

Do I think they were involved in the accusations...No

Why have the accusations taken so long to surface...Probably due to the new procedures instigated recently.

More questions have now to be answered on how that bastion of decency, and decorum, the Daily Rectum has got it's mitts on the evidence, possibly causing any future case to fall.

It's only started, and we now have journalists (spit) in the Times, saying whatever happens, no matter the outcome, Salmond is finished. This is the same journo who supported the Liar Carmichael.

Let's see what happens over the next few days, as I'm sure the BBC will keep us informed on this one.:wink:

[RyeSloan]

Direct answer.

Nobody knows apart from the British civil service. My interest was spiked during a couple of posts earlier in the thread where one poster alluded to Salmond taking Lesley Evans to court, and another said this was untrue.

I was wanting to ascertain what the line of command was in such matters, and it seems to be that as well as Lesley working for the SG, she also reports to London.

Do I think they were involved in the accusations...No

Why have the accusations taken so long to surface...Probably due to the new procedures instigated recently.

More questions have now to be answered on how that bastion of decency, and decorum, the Daily Rectum has got it's mitts on the evidence, possibly causing any future case to fall.

It's only started, and we now have journalists (spit) in the Times, saying whatever happens, no matter the outcome, Salmond is finished. This is the same journo who supported the Liar Carmichael.

Let's see what happens over the next few days, as I'm sure the BBC will keep us informed on this one.:wink:

Was Salmond not kind of finished anyway?

Losing to a Tory then taking the Ruble for his chat show had maybe suggested his time was up.

I have no idea what his standing was within the party but I think nationally he was a bit of a busted flush after the Referendum failure.

[Tomsk]

Direct answer.

Nobody knows apart from the British civil service. My interest was spiked during a couple of posts earlier in the thread where one poster alluded to Salmond taking Lesley Evans to court, and another said this was untrue.

I was wanting to ascertain what the line of command was in such matters, and it seems to be that as well as Lesley working for the SG, she also reports to London.

Do I think they were involved in the accusations...No

Why have the accusations taken so long to surface...Probably due to the new procedures instigated recently.

More questions have now to be answered on how that bastion of decency, and decorum, the Daily Rectum has got it's mitts on the evidence, possibly causing any future case to fall.

It's only started, and we now have journalists (spit) in the Times, saying whatever happens, no matter the outcome, Salmond is finished. This is the same journo who supported the Liar Carmichael.

Let's see what happens over the next few days, as I'm sure the BBC will keep us informed on this one.:wink:

If we are to believe what is being reported -- I know, bear with me -- the allegations were made in January but not presented to Salmond until March. I think the officials would have been more than usually careful getting their ducks in a row on this one. :greengrin There follows a bit of attempted horse trading. Lawyers letters. Hearings. Meetings. You name it. All minuted. Recorded. Checked and double-checked. And all involving the very top people in Scottish government circles who are not exactly sitting around looking for things to do. Time would fly by.

How did the hacks in the Record get their information? Simple. Someone in the Scottish government told them. Straight up, I don't think they would have published otherwise. Where would they get their corroboration from on a story like this?

Nobody will ever find that minuted and recorded. But it's what any government would do. Control the message.

I might be wrong. But that's how it's usually done.

[1875godsgift]

Sad to hear the rumours coming out about Salmond. He's not been found guilty of anything yet and I'm sure non nats like myself will refrain from commenting until the truth whatever it is emerges.

Mon Scottish Labour


What a moronic crass comment to make at this time when serious allegations of a sexual nature against women have been made of which are yet to be proven or not.

Mon Scottish Labour

Changed your tune pretty quickly there did you not?!

Just like your party does I suppose.....

[ronaldo7]

If we are to believe what is being reported -- I know, bear with me -- the allegations were made in January but not presented to Salmond until March. I think the officials would have been more than usually careful getting their ducks in a row on this one. :greengrin There follows a bit of attempted horse trading. Lawyers letters. Hearings. Meetings. You name it. All minuted. Recorded. Checked and double-checked. And all involving the very top people in Scottish government circles who are not exactly sitting around looking for things to do. Time would fly by.

How did the hacks in the Record get their information? Simple. Someone in the Scottish government told them. Straight up, I don't think they would have published otherwise. Where would they get their corroboration from on a story like this?

Nobody will ever find that minuted and recorded. But it's what any government would do. Control the message.

I might be wrong. But that's how it's usually done.

We'll probably have to differentiate when saying "someone in the Scottish government". Civil servant or politician?

The waters are so muddy these days, you just don't know what's reserved or devolved. 😁

[Moulin Yarns]

The top civil servant has admitted there were no complaints about Alex salmond prior to January this year. Why has it taken the two people 4 or 5 years to raise the issue.

[danhibees1875]

The top civil servant has admitted there were no complaints about Alex salmond prior to January this year. Why has it taken the two people 4 or 5 years to raise the issue.

Confidence, inapporpriate behaviour having more of a spotlight and showing that the powerful can't just sweep under the carpet, and a new complaints mechanism within the government.

I don't think the timing of the complaints should be considered here.

[johnbc70]

The top civil servant has admitted there were no complaints about Alex salmond prior to January this year. Why has it taken the two people 4 or 5 years to raise the issue.

Maybe because he was the most powerful man in Scotland at the time and the women thought they would not believed?

Why did the footballers who were abused in the 80s only come out and speak about it now?

Everyone has their reasons and we should not speculate that because they waited 5 years it lessens their claims.

[marinello59]

The top civil servant has admitted there were no complaints about Alex salmond prior to January this year. Why has it taken the two people 4 or 5 years to raise the issue.

In the wake of the Harvey Weinstein allegations I’m surprised anybody has to ask this question.

[G B Young]

The top civil servant has admitted there were no complaints about Alex salmond prior to January this year. Why has it taken the two people 4 or 5 years to raise the issue.

How many recorded complaints were there about Jimmy Saville or Harvey Weinstein before the floodgates opened? I'm not suggesting we're looking at something similar here, but it was only this year, in the wake of the Weinstein scandal, that a new procedure for handling harassment complaints was introduced at Holyrood. Perhaps no coincidence that only now have these complainants felt confident enough to come forward. As somebody else has pointed out, Salmond would have been at the peak of his powers in 2013 and taking somebody like that on when the mechanism is not in place to be taken seriously would have taken remarkable guts.

[johnbc70]

In the wake of the Harvey Weinstein allegations I’m surprised anybody has to ask this question.

I saw similar comments about people saying if it was me I would have reported it straight away, why wait 5 years etc.

[Tornadoes70]

Changed your tune pretty quickly there did you not?!

Just like your party does I suppose.....

No I didn't. If you read the two posts you'll see I stayed true to my word. I've not speculated upon anything to do with Salmond's alleged misconduct.

I cannot stand though some nats who based upon their brainwashed fanaticism attempt to airbrush out the fact two women have come forward making serious allegations.

They're the ones pre judging and if it was their mothers or daughters who'd made similar allegations I doubt very much they'd be defending the alleged perpetrator or attempting to cast doubt on such events prior to the facts being made public.

if it was a Labour member no matter how high his ranking who'd been accused by two women of sexual harassment or assault I would not be defending him in any way shape or form until due process had run its course and of course dependent very much upon learning the facts of just what took place or didn't whatever the case may be.


Mon Scottish Labour

[ronaldo7]

No I didn't. If you read the two posts you'll see I stayed true to my word. I've not speculated upon anything to do with Salmond's alleged misconduct.

I cannot stand though some nats who based upon their brainwashed fanaticism attempt to airbrush out the fact two women have come forward making serious allegations.

They're the ones pre judging and if it was their mothers or daughters who'd made similar allegations I doubt very much they'd be defending the alleged perpetrator or attempting to cast doubt on such events prior to the facts being made public.

if it was a Labour member no matter how high his ranking who'd been accused by two women of sexual harassment or assault I would not be defending him in any way shape or form until due process had run its course and of course dependent very much upon learning the facts of just what took place or didn't whatever the case may be.


Mon Scottish Labour

Re your last paragraph.

Maybe you could update us on how the investigations are going on with, Alex Rowley, or impress on, Monica Lennon, that she really should name the person who continually groped her at party conferences.

It might save other young women having to go through the same.

When your done with that, an update on the investigation into the islamophobic comments aimed at Humza Yousaf.

Has, Hugh Gaffney done his diversity training yet?

I'm sure Jeremy has enough on his plate just now though. 😩

That should be enough to be going on with.

[WeeRussell]

No I didn't. If you read the two posts you'll see I stayed true to my word. I've not speculated upon anything to do with Salmond's alleged misconduct.

I cannot stand though some nats who based upon their brainwashed fanaticism attempt to airbrush out the fact two women have come forward making serious allegations.

They're the ones pre judging and if it was their mothers or daughters who'd made similar allegations I doubt very much they'd be defending the alleged perpetrator or attempting to cast doubt on such events prior to the facts being made public.

if it was a Labour member no matter how high his ranking who'd been accused by two women of sexual harassment or assault I would not be defending him in any way shape or form until due process had run its course and of course dependent very much upon learning the facts of just what took place or didn't whatever the case may be.


Mon Scottish Labour

Your posts are quite something.

[johnbc70]

My local councillor just tweeted.

"In 2012 the SNP introduced the "Treatment Time Guarantee", which gave patients a legal right to treatment within 12 weeks for conditions such as knee and eye operations.

18,338 patients between April and June this year had this right breached."

[Mr Grieves]

My local councillor just tweeted.

"In 2012 the SNP introduced the "Treatment Time Guarantee", which gave patients a legal right to treatment within 12 weeks for conditions such as knee and eye operations.

18,338 patients between April and June this year had this right breached."

Has your local Councillor also tweeted how his party would improve the NHS?

[johnbc70]

Has your local Councillor also tweeted how his party would improve the NHS?

I am sure it was in his party's manifesto, so yes.

[Tornadoes70]

Direct answer.

Nobody knows apart from the British civil service. My interest was spiked during a couple of posts earlier in the thread where one poster alluded to Salmond taking Lesley Evans to court, and another said this was untrue.

I was wanting to ascertain what the line of command was in such matters, and it seems to be that as well as Lesley working for the SG, she also reports to London.

Do I think they were involved in the accusations...No

Why have the accusations taken so long to surface...Probably due to the new procedures instigated recently.

More questions have now to be answered on how that bastion of decency, and decorum, the Daily Rectum has got it's mitts on the evidence, possibly causing any future case to fall.

It's only started, and we now have journalists (spit) in the Times, saying whatever happens, no matter the outcome, Salmond is finished. This is the same journo who supported the Liar Carmichael.

Let's see what happens over the next few days, as I'm sure the BBC will keep us informed on this one.:wink:

I'm still maintaining my position that its sensible to refrain from speculating on the Alex Salmond story pertaining to the alleged sexual wrongdoing two women have put before the authorities.

Until the full story and facts emerge it would be wrongful to speculate.

Mon Scottish Labour

[ronaldo7]

I'm still maintaining my position that its sensible to refrain from speculating on the Alex Salmond story pertaining to the alleged sexual wrongdoing two women have put before the authorities.

Until the full story and facts emerge it would be wrongful to speculate.

Mon Scottish Labour


Well done bud.

It should take a while for things to be concluded.

Meantime...Shhhhh. 😉

[Mr Grieves]

I am sure it was in his party's manifesto, so yes.


Go on, tell us who you would prefer to run the NHS in Scotland? I'm guessing ABSNP

[speedy_gonzales]

Go on, tell us who you would prefer to run the NHS in Scotland? I'm guessing ABSNP
I'm gonna say professionals in the business of health that will ensure that the available funding goes to where it's needed and won't tie up frontline staff with bureaucracy,,,,

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40310635_10210492104213085_231491818062086144_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=9babef896fd2195305ace49cb10eb697&oe=5BF982D4



:hyper it certainly is Nicola hen

[johnbc70]

So Alex Salmond has resigned from the SNP and set up a crowd funder page to pay for his legal costs.

I am sure he is a wealthy man (majority of it from taxpayers) and he himself chose to go down this route, now he wants others to pay for it!

[ronaldo7]

So Alex Salmond has resigned from the SNP and set up a crowd funder page to pay for his legal costs.

I am sure he is a wealthy man (majority of it from taxpayers) and he himself chose to go down this route, now he wants others to pay for it!

The unionist parties will be gutted. It removes their line of attack they've been desperate to maintain.

£16k raised already, of a £50k target

How much have you donated?

[johnbc70]

The unionist parties will be gutted. It removes their line of attack they've been desperate to maintain.

£16k raised already, of a £50k target

How much have you donated?

I saw a donation for £1 from someone called 'Salmond deserves to go to jail', was not me though!

Fair play to him if he can get others to fund this, what's that saying? A fool and his money are soon parted...

[ronaldo7]

I saw a donation for £1 from someone called 'Salmond deserves to go to jail', was not me though!

Fair play to him if he can get others to fund this, what's that saying? A fool and his money are soon parted...

You'll be gutted. I feel your pain 😣

Up to over £20k now. 😎

[johnbc70]

You'll be gutted. I feel your pain 😣

Up to over £20k now. 😎

He was always going to get the money, no doubt about that. Just a little odd a wealthy man like him asks others to pay for his QCs when it was him and no-one else that decided to go down the route he has chosen. The lawyers will be the big winners here.

[ronaldo7]

He was always going to get the money, no doubt about that. Just a little odd a wealthy man like him asks others to pay for his QCs when it was him and no-one else that decided to go down the route he has chosen. The lawyers will be the big winners here.

Kind of like the Tories, and dark money.

[johnbc70]

Kind of like the Tories, and dark money.

Never thought I would see the day you compare Salmond with the Tories!

[speedy_gonzales]

Kind of like the Tories, and dark money.

Never thought I would see the day you compare Salmond with the Tories!

Oooft, check mate!

[Hibs Class]

Never thought I would see the day you compare Salmond with the Tories!

:top marks

[ronaldo7]

Never thought I would see the day you compare Salmond with the Tories!

😂👌

The point I was making is that the money for Alex will be clean, and freely given, Tory dark money on the other hand...

Up over £30k now. 👍

[Tornadoes70]

Ends in ignominy for Salmond. How the mighty fall. Instead of soapy leading his brainwashed off the cliff into separatism he resigns after two women complain of sexual harassment and/or assault.

Dearie me.


Mon Scottish Labour

[Tornadoes70]

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40310635_10210492104213085_231491818062086144_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=9babef896fd2195305ace49cb10eb697&oe=5BF982D4



:hyper it certainly is Nicola hen

Aye, separatism from power for the snp as they slide ever downwards.

:wink:

Mon Scottish Labour

[johnbc70]

The court case will not prove his innocence or guilt and will have no bearing if the police take this further or not. So he is spending £50K on what exactly? For a judge to say an internal scottish government process is flawed, he thinks that is worth £50K of others peoples money. The lawyers will be loving all this.

[ronaldo7]

The court case will not prove his innocence or guilt and will have no bearing if the police take this further or not. So he is spending £50K on what exactly? For a judge to say an internal scottish government process is flawed, he thinks that is worth £50K of others peoples money. The lawyers will be loving all this.

£41k and rising. Just like yer blood pressure. 😂

[pacoluna]

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/alexsalmond

[johnbc70]

£41k and rising. Just like yer blood pressure. 😂

No, just find it a little odd and quite sad. I wonder if those funding him understand it makes no difference to his guilt or innocence? I suspect a fair few believe they are funding his actual defence to the accusations, some of the comments suggest that is the case.

[RyeSloan]

He was always going to get the money, no doubt about that. Just a little odd a wealthy man like him asks others to pay for his QCs when it was him and no-one else that decided to go down the route he has chosen. The lawyers will be the big winners here.

£50k is a lot of dough in most people’s language even if you are ‘wealthy’.

It’s an interesting case considering the procedure he is challenging was only introduced last year. Sturgeon herself has recently stated this was after her explicit review and approval of it.

As I understand it Salmond first has to be granted one and then argue his case at said review. The court then decides if the process was legal and / or proper (Wiki)

So basically Salmond is trying to quash the validity of the procedure and with it any verdict it may have concluded (be that accurate or otherwise).

Success in doing so would then put Sturgeon front and centre of a rather messy and loaded situation having been personally responsible for the introduction of a procedure that had failed in such a high profile and emotive case.

No surprise then to see Salmond resign from the SNP although I do wonder why he waited until after the press and opposition had forced Sturgeon into an awkward (if probably true) statement on the points of order around party suspensions and her personal role as leader of the party and FM...

[Tornadoes70]

The court case will not prove his innocence or guilt and will have no bearing if the police take this further or not. So he is spending £50K on what exactly? For a judge to say an internal scottish government process is flawed, he thinks that is worth £50K of others peoples money. The lawyers will be loving all this.

Embarrassing from salmond. I'm certain folk of no party allegiance are looking on in complete disdain at what are very obviously deflection smoke and mirror tactics from someone we all thought was better than this.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Tornadoes70]

£50k is a lot of dough in most people’s language even if you are ‘wealthy’.

It’s an interesting case considering the procedure he is challenging was only introduced last year. Sturgeon herself has recently stated this was after her explicit review and approval of it.

As I understand it Salmond first has to be granted one and then argue his case at said review. The court then decides if the process was legal and / or proper (Wiki)

So basically Salmond is trying to quash the validity of the procedure and with it any verdict it may have concluded (be that accurate or otherwise).

Success in doing so would then put Sturgeon front and centre of a rather messy and loaded situation having been personally responsible for the introduction of a procedure that had failed in such a high profile and emotive case.

No surprise then to see Salmond resign from the SNP although I do wonder why he waited until after the press and opposition had forced Sturgeon into an awkward (if probably true) statement on the points of order around party suspensions and her personal role as leader of the party and FM...

The Judges may well ultimately criticise the process and conclude the matter should have been passed on for Police investigations to begin far sooner than the eight months time delay from the complaints first being made until they were eventually handed over to Police Scotland.

That is very possibly what could arise from a Judicial Review.

Mon Scottish Labour

[pacoluna]

Ends in ignominy for Salmond. How the mighty fall. Instead of soapy leading his brainwashed off the cliff into separatism he resigns after two women complain of sexual harassment and/or assault.

Dearie me.


Mon Scottish Labour


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/10/britain-apologises-for-appalling-treatment-of-abdel-hakim-belhaj

Just a reminder; the Tory UK government used tax-payers money to settle a case to avoid Labour's Jack Straw and Tony Blair being questioned in court about sending a man and his wife to Gaddafi to be tortured.


Mon labour.

[Tornadoes70]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/10/britain-apologises-for-appalling-treatment-of-abdel-hakim-belhaj

Just a reminder; the Tory UK government used tax-payers money to settle a case to avoid Labour's Jack Straw and Tony Blair being questioned in court about sending a man and his wife to Gaddafi to be tortured.


Mon labour.

I take no personal pleasure at seeing salmond's ignominious fall from grace. Its always sad to see someone who was once respected being under suspicion of serious allegations.

I don't however agree with the way he's acted since and I'm certain a huge number of folk would agree.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Jack]

I take no personal pleasure at seeing salmond's ignominious fall from grace. Its always sad to see someone who was once respected being under suspicion of serious allegations.

I don't however agree with the way he's acted since and I'm certain a huge number of folk would agree.

Mon Scottish Labour

How many is a huge number?

[Tornadoes70]

How many is a huge number?

55%

Mon Scottish Labour

[1875godsgift]

Sad to hear the rumours coming out about Salmond. He's not been found guilty of anything yet and I'm sure non nats like myself will refrain from commenting until the truth whatever it is emerges.

Mon Scottish Labour
Embarrassing from salmond. I'm certain folk of no party allegiance are looking on in complete disdain at what are very obviously deflection smoke and mirror tactics from someone we all thought was better than this.

Mon Scottish Labour


I take no personal pleasure at seeing salmond's ignominious fall from grace. Its always sad to see someone who was once respected being under suspicion of serious allegations.

I don't however agree with the way he's acted since and I'm certain a huge number of folk would agree.

Mon Scottish Labour




Ends in ignominy for Salmond. How the mighty fall. Instead of soapy leading his brainwashed off the cliff into separatism he resigns after two women complain of sexual harassment and/or assault.

Dearie me.


Mon Scottish Labour


moan Scottish Labour - we always keep our promises

[ronaldo7]

No, just find it a little odd and quite sad. I wonder if those funding him understand it makes no difference to his guilt or innocence? I suspect a fair few believe they are funding his actual defence to the accusations, some of the comments suggest that is the case.

The vast majority of those funding him will know exactly how the process works. It's been described, time and again over the last few days.

For you to paint the independence movement and their supporters(because that's who will be supporting him) as somehow not understanding the process is shallow and uninformed itself.

They are the most up to date, and politically informed group of people in Scotland.

Aye, you might find a comment or two, but that really is a pathetic comment.

I've not checked this morning, has he reached his target yet. I know you'll have checked.

[pacoluna]

The vast majority of those funding him will know exactly how the process works. It's been described, time and again over the last few days.

For you to paint the independence movement and their supporters(because that's who will be supporting him) as somehow not understanding the process is shallow and uninformed itself.

They are the most up to date, and politically informed group of people in Scotland.

Aye, you might find a comment or two, but that really is a pathetic comment.

I've not checked this morning, has he reached his target yet. I know you'll have checked.

The irony being is that the people who might just find them selves with a libel case against them at the end of all this are the ones who don't seem to understand the process. Perhaps the case against them will be crowdfunded aswell, Jackie Baillie, Jenny Marra etc.

[ronaldo7]

Was Salmond not kind of finished anyway?

Losing to a Tory then taking the Ruble for his chat show had maybe suggested his time was up.

I have no idea what his standing was within the party but I think nationally he was a bit of a busted flush after the Referendum failure.

Missed this one earlier.

Finished is he? Maybe not at the height of his powers, I'll give you that, but far from finished, it seems.

[ronaldo7]

The irony being is that the people who might just find them selves with a libel case against them at the end of all this are the ones who don't seem to understand the process. Perhaps the case against them will be crowdfunded aswell, Jackie Baillie, Jenny Marra etc.

I've seen some of the comments ( only to be expected from the likes of marra and co), and this is after the process has been fully explained.

😂👌

[G B Young]

I wasn't aware until reading this threat that Salmond was crowdfunding his legal action. I didn't know you could do that.

Out of interest why has he gone down this route? Can he genuinely not afford the legal costs (hard to believe) or is he looking to try and create the impression he has the public's sympathy and support?

[Pretty Boy]

Once again in a case of this nature, think Assange as an another example, in the desperation to defend political positions, on all sides, the key issue in all of this is lost. That being that there is an allegation of sexual offences against women involved. This has become yet another pantomime about Alex Salmond and boo, hiss 'politics' rather than grown ups discussing what is a gravely serious subject.

[Bristolhibby]

Once again in a case of this nature, think Assange as an another example, in the desperation to defend political positions, on all sides, the key issue in all of this is lost. That being that there is an allegation of sexual offences against women involved. This has become yet another pantomime about Alex Salmond and boo, hiss 'politics' rather than grown ups discussing what is a gravely serious subject.

An allegation which the process in place to investigate prevents him from knowing the charges, acccusar or being able to mount a defence. This is “Learned Helplessness” and I’d be pissed off as well if it were me.

If there genuinely been a crime, get the Police involved. The fact that we know charges against him shows there’s been a Political “Leak” in the Civil Service. Something in itself that should warrant an investigation.

At this time the only thing him and others like him can do is go after the process. Because the process prevents him from refuting the charges.

J

[Pretty Boy]

An allegation which the process in place to investigate prevents him from knowing the charges, acccusar or being able to mount a defence. This is “Learned Helplessness” and I’d be pissed off as well if it were me.

If there genuinely been a crime, get the Police involved. The fact that we know charges against him shoes there’s been a Political “Leak” in the Civil Service. Something in itself that should warrant an investigation.

At this time the only thing him and others like him can do is go after the process. Because the process prevents him from refuting the charges.

J

I absolutely get why Salmond is setting up the way he is.

Read the last couple of pages of tit for tat nonsense on here to see how the issue is being trivialised and turned into another politcal football though. Social media and the press is a total minefield.

[ronaldo7]

I wasn't aware until reading this threat that Salmond was crowdfunding his legal action. I didn't know you could do that.

Out of interest why has he gone down this route? Can he genuinely not afford the legal costs (hard to believe) or is he looking to try and create the impression he has the public's sympathy and support?

Clara ponsati crowd funded her fight against her extradition to Spain and reached £282,300

It's a well used tactic to fund the individual against the state.

You might have missed, Alistair Carmichael as a sitting MP crowd funding when he was caught lying about the FM of Scotland in frenchgate.

He raised £14,000 whilst t taking money from the public purse.

Oh how quickly we forget.

[Tornadoes70]

Once again in a case of this nature, think Assange as an another example, in the desperation to defend political positions, on all sides, the key issue in all of this is lost. That being that there is an allegation of sexual offences against women involved. This has become yet another pantomime about Alex Salmond and boo, hiss 'politics' rather than grown ups discussing what is a gravely serious subject.

Exactly. Salmond and the snp spin bots have been in full obfuscation and deflection mode. Instead of allowing due process to run its course damage limitation appears to be the priority for the snp and their supporters with stunts like the judicial review and crowdfunding etc being used to give the impression of Salmond being a victim of injustice.

Discussion on the gravely serious subject cannot yet take place as the full details have yet to emerge of events that either did or didn't take place between Salmond and the two women who've accused him of sexual misconduct.

It would be premature to speculate as per the actual alleged complaints as we don't know yet just what will materialise.

However, what we've seen so far is their snp spin machine working overtime on damage limitation for their party.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Mr Grieves]

Once again in a case of this nature, think Assange as an another example, in the desperation to defend political positions, on all sides, the key issue in all of this is lost. That being that there is an allegation of sexual offences against women involved. This has become yet another pantomime about Alex Salmond and boo, hiss 'politics' rather than grown ups discussing what is a gravely serious subject.

You're spot on.

[Bristolhibby]

Exactly. Salmond and the snp spin bots have been in full obfuscation and deflection mode. Instead of allowing due process to run its course damage limitation to the snp takes priority for them and their supporters with stunts like the judicial review and crowdfunding etc being used to give the impression of Salmond being a victim of injustice rather than focussing on the actual complaints of alleged sexual abuse.

Discussion on the gravely serious subject cannot yet take place as the full details have yet to emerge of events that either did or didn't take place between Salmond and the two women who've accused him of sexual misconduct.

It would be premature to speculate as per the actual alleged complaints as we don't know yet just what will materialise.

Mon Scottish Labour

How does an individual defend themselves if the internal process in place prevents you from knowing the charges, accuser or being able to mount a defence?

What happens if there is a leak in the system and the press seem to know more than the individual being accused?

Like I said, if there’s been a crime involved, then the Police should be involved.

J

[Tornadoes70]

How does an individual defend themselves if the internal process in place prevents you from knowing the charges, accuser or being able to mount a defence?

What happens if there is a leak in the system and the press seem to know more than the individual being accused?

Like I said, if there’s been a crime involved, then the Police should be involved.

J

It will all come out in the wash so to speak. There is no point in speculation regarding the process and the complaints alleging sexual abuse until all the facts emerge.

We've heard plenty from Salmond and the snp spin machine so far and nothing as yet involving the actual complaints.

Its in the hands of the Police belatedly and the facts will become known sooner or later.

Mon Scottish Labour

[pacoluna]

Exactly. Salmond and the snp spin bots have been in full obfuscation and deflection mode. Instead of allowing due process to run its course damage limitation appears to be the priority for the snp and their supporters with stunts like the judicial review and crowdfunding etc being used to give the impression of Salmond being a victim of injustice.

Discussion on the gravely serious subject cannot yet take place as the full details have yet to emerge of events that either did or didn't take place between Salmond and the two women who've accused him of sexual misconduct.

It would be premature to speculate as per the actual alleged complaints as we don't know yet just what will materialise.

However, what we've seen so far is their snp spin machine working overtime on damage limitation for their party.

Mon Scottish Labour

Hypocrisy overload.

[Bristolhibby]

It will all come out in the wash so to speak. There is no point in speculation regarding the process and the complaints alleging sexual abuse until all the facts emerge.

We've heard plenty from Salmond and the snp spin machine so far and nothing as yet involving the actual complaints.

Its in the hands of the Police belatedly and the facts will become known sooner or later.

Mon Scottish Labour

We know nothing about the allegations because the system in place should prevent us from knowing. The very fact there’s been a leak suggests someone in the process leaked the fact that there are allocations to the press. We can all agree this is a bad thing.

When the system fails you, and the very same system prevents you from defending yourself, what then.

My tuppence is, if it were very serious, the first people involved should have been the police. Have they been involved yet?

J

[Tornadoes70]

Hypocrisy overload.

I've never defended a member of my party who had sexual misconduct allegations made against them. If you want to deflect away from the Salmond issue then carry on but its not a position I respect as its a very serious issue involving potentially victims of sexual misconduct. He may or may not be guilty and it will come out in due course. Better to wait and see.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Tornadoes70]

We know nothing about the allegations because the system in place should prevent us from knowing. The very fact there’s been a leak suggests someone in the process leaked the fact that there are allocations to the press. We can all agree this is a bad thing.

When the system fails you, and the very same system prevents you from defending yourself, what then.

My tuppence is, if it were very serious, the first people involved should have been the police. Have they been involved yet?

J

As I said previously it will all be made clear either sooner or later. I'm not going to speculate on the process or the actual complaints of alleged sexual misconduct until the facts become known.

We've already heard plenty from Salmond and the snp spin machine.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Hibrandenburg]

As I said previously it will all be made clear either sooner or later. I'm not going to speculate on the process or the actual complaints of alleged sexual misconduct until the facts become known.

We've already heard plenty from Salmond and the snp spin machine.

Mon Scottish Labour

But you previously stated you'd never defend someone against whom sexual allegations have been made. At this stage allegations is all it is. Surely we need to wait until these allegations are proven?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Hypocrisy overload.



the biggest one on here :agree: it's so funny



oh and p.s. mon the red tories or whatever childish p@sh it is

[CropleyWasGod]

As I said previously it will all be made clear either sooner or later. I'm not going to speculate on the process or the actual complaints of alleged sexual misconduct until the facts become known.

We've already heard plenty from Salmond and the snp spin machine.

Mon Scottish Labour

Yep, and now it's the turn of the Labour spin machine:-

https://twitter.com/JennyMarra/status/1034909483783409672

https://news.sky.com/story/alex-salmond-accused-of-dragging-scotland-into-gutter-as-crowdfunding-bid-passes-target-11485396



We haven't heard from any of the other "spin-machines". IMO, that's as it should be.

[G B Young]

An allegation which the process in place to investigate prevents him from knowing the charges, acccusar or being able to mount a defence. This is “Learned Helplessness” and I’d be pissed off as well if it were me.

If there genuinely been a crime, get the Police involved. The fact that we know charges against him shows there’s been a Political “Leak” in the Civil Service. Something in itself that should warrant an investigation.

At this time the only thing him and others like him can do is go after the process. Because the process prevents him from refuting the charges.

J

And yet Salmond felt able to describe the allegations as "patently ridiculous" while claiming not to have been allowed to see the case against him. Patently is defined as "without doubt" so you have to imagine he had at least some knowledge of what was being alleged for him to come out with such a bold assertion.

With some of the allegations having now been published, they don't strike me as "patently ridiculous".

[Peevemor]

And yet Salmond felt able to describe the allegations as "patently ridiculous" while claiming not to have been allowed to see the case against him. Patently is defined as "without doubt" so you have to imagine he had at least some knowledge of what was being alleged for him to come out with such a bold assertion.

With some of the allegations having now been published, they don't strike me as "patently ridiculous".

If someone at work accused me of sexual harassment I could easily and truthfully say that it was "patently ridiculous" without knowinng the details, as I know that I've never done anything of that nature.

[G B Young]

If someone at work accused me of sexual harassment I could easily and truthfully say that it was "patently ridiculous" without knowinng the details, as I know that I've never done anything of that nature.

While I don't know what your job is (so correct me if I'm wrong!) I imagine that in such a hypothetical situation you wouldn't be making a statement about it to the world's media and, IMHO, making an early attempt to control the narrative by dismissing as "patently ridiculous" allegations about which you claim to have been told nothing.

His exact wording , incidentally, was that he has been denied access "to documentation to allow me to properly challenge the complaints, all of which I refute and some of which were patently ridiculous". To be able to pick out "some" of the complaints as well as refuting "all" of them surely suggests he has more knowledge of them than he claimed.

It's also notable that despite claiming in his original statement that he would make no further comment until his petition for judicial review has been heard that he's come out with regular statements on the matter since!

[johnbc70]

While I don't know what your job is (so correct me if I'm wrong!) I imagine that in such a hypothetical situation you wouldn't be making a statement about it to the world's media and, IMHO, making an early attempt to control the narrative by dismissing as "patently ridiculous" allegations about which you claim to have been told nothing.

His exact wording , incidentally, was that he has been denied access "to documentation to allow me to properly challenge the complaints, all of which I refute and some of which were patently ridiculous". To be able to pick out "some" of the complaints as well as refuting "all" of them surely suggests he has more knowledge of them than he claimed.

It's also notable that despite claiming in his original statement that he would make no further comment until his petition for judicial review has been heard that he's come out with regular statements on the matter since!

I am sure he would also not be raising £50K via crowdfunding to challenge the process at the Court of Session. Or maybe we would all do that?

[Hibs Class]

We know nothing about the allegations because the system in place should prevent us from knowing. The very fact there’s been a leak suggests someone in the process leaked the fact that there are allocations to the press. We can all agree this is a bad thing.

When the system fails you, and the very same system prevents you from defending yourself, what then.

My tuppence is, if it were very serious, the first people involved should have been the police. Have they been involved yet?

J


There are plenty of reasons why victims of sexual crimes don't involve the Police, but which don't mean a crime didn't occur

[Moulin Yarns]

While I don't know what your job is (so correct me if I'm wrong!) I imagine that in such a hypothetical situation you wouldn't be making a statement about it to the world's media and, IMHO, making an early attempt to control the narrative by dismissing as "patently ridiculous" allegations about which you claim to have been told nothing.

His exact wording , incidentally, was that he has been denied access "to documentation to allow me to properly challenge the complaints, all of which I refute and some of which were patently ridiculous". To be able to pick out "some" of the complaints as well as refuting "all" of them surely suggests he has more knowledge of them than he claimed.

It's also notable that despite claiming in his original statement that he would make no further comment until his petition for judicial review has been heard that he's come out with regular statements on the matter since!

For Alex salmond substitute Cliff Richard. Both accused of something they denied but when the media come asking then it requires an answer.

[Beefster]

Once again in a case of this nature, think Assange as an another example, in the desperation to defend political positions, on all sides, the key issue in all of this is lost. That being that there is an allegation of sexual offences against women involved. This has become yet another pantomime about Alex Salmond and boo, hiss 'politics' rather than grown ups discussing what is a gravely serious subject.

It also reinforces why anonymity is essential for people making allegations. If named in this scenario, they'd get absolutely trashed on Twitter etc.

Anonymity for those being accused is another matter but, in this case, Salmond would have presumably forgone that as soon as he launched his legal action against the Scottish Government.

[RyeSloan]

There are plenty of reasons why victims of sexual crimes don't involve the Police, but which don't mean a crime didn't occur

There also maybe a middle ground where his behaviour or the evidence of it is not enough for a criminal charge but enough for him to be booted out of the party in disgrace.

By seeking to quash the legitimacy of the procedure to date he would nullify the second option as well as force the police to disregard any evidence presented to them by the complaints process and start any investigation afresh.

All in all it’s a bit of a sorry mess and if there has been inappropriate behaviour you gotta feel for the victims in this as they seem to be at the bottom of the pile just now.

[Tornadoes70]

Yep, and now it's the turn of the Labour spin machine:-

https://twitter.com/JennyMarra/status/1034909483783409672

https://news.sky.com/story/alex-salmond-accused-of-dragging-scotland-into-gutter-as-crowdfunding-bid-passes-target-11485396



We haven't heard from any of the other "spin-machines". IMO, that's as it should be.


I think we've all heard enough bluster and spinning.

Lets not forget the real issue here in that the former first minister Alex Salmond who at the time just prior to the separatist referendum held in 2014 that the No's won decisively has been accused of engaging in sexual misconduct against two women.

It'll all surface into the public domain once investigations and legal issues are completed and then will be the time for assessing just what did take place.

As I've rightly said all along we don't know if Mr Salmond is guilty of anything yet and speculation is pointless until all the facts emerge.

Mon Scottish Labour

[CropleyWasGod]

I think we've all heard enough bluster and spinning.

Lets not forget the real issue here in that the former first minister Alex Salmond who at the time just prior to the separatist referendum held in 2014 that the No's won decisively has been accused of engaging in sexual misconduct against two women.

It'll all surface into the public domain once investigations and legal issues are completed and then will be the time for assessing just what did take place.

As I've rightly said all along we don't know if Mr Salmond is guilty of anything yet and speculation is pointless until all the facts emerge.

Mon Scottish Labour

You can't help yourself, can you? :na na:

[Peevemor]

There also maybe a middle ground where his behaviour or the evidence of it is not enough for a criminal charge but enough for him to be booted out of the party in disgrace.

By seeking to quash the legitimacy of the procedure to date he would nullify the second option as well as force the police to disregard any evidence presented to them by the complaints process and start any investigation afresh.

All in all it’s a bit of a sorry mess and if there has been inappropriate behaviour you gotta feel for the victims in this as they seem to be at the bottom of the pile just now.

I've no idea whether Salmond was up to no good but I'd be very surprised if there's any proof of wrongdoing, therefore it becomes their word against his.

I can't see the outcome being satisfactory for any of those involved.

[Tornadoes70]

You can't help yourself, can you? :na na:

Just pointing out a matter of fact.

:greengrin

Mon Scottish Labour

[WeeRussell]

I think we've all heard enough bluster and spinning.

Lets not forget the real issue here in that the former first minister Alex Salmond who at the time just prior to the separatist referendum held in 2014 that the No's won decisively has been accused of engaging in sexual misconduct against two women.

It'll all surface into the public domain once investigations and legal issues are completed and then will be the time for assessing just what did take place.

As I've rightly said all along we don't know if Mr Salmond is guilty of anything yet and speculation is pointless until all the facts emerge.

Mon Scottish Labour

For someone that doesn't want to comment on the subject until the facts come out and has had enough of bluster and spinning, are you aware you've made more than 1/5 of the posts on this page of the thread?

The way you've written that first line could be easily construed as trolling. Especially as it's you who keeps highlighting what a serious subject this is, amongst your perpetual slavering. Therefore, and I am often correct with these predictions, I think your days on this forum may be numbered.

Mon the admins.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Where do folk think this is heading - a criminal prosecution, a civil claim, or no further action?

[cabbageandribs1875]

just watched a sky news interview with tory MSP annie wells, doesn't matter how many Q's the sky interviewer asked for a bit of balance she continually went back to 'think of the two victims', his SNP collegues are giving him support, well they should be thinking of his victims instead,she says :confused: then she said, but anyway it's in the hands of the police now so we will see what comes out of that, yes annie wellis, we will indeed :confused: just as well she's not able to hang people first...especially those she doesn't like

[cabbageandribs1875]

For someone that doesn't want to comment on the subject until the facts come out and has had enough of bluster and spinning, are you aware you've made more than 1/5 of the posts on this page of the thread?

The way you've written that first line could be easily construed as trolling. Especially as it's you who keeps highlighting what a serious subject this is, amongst your perpetual slavering. Therefore, and I am often correct with these predictions, I think your days on this forum may be numbered.

Mon the admins.


stop teasing

[Pretty Boy]

I've no idea whether Salmond was up to no good but I'd be very surprised if there's any proof of wrongdoing, therefore it becomes their word against his.

I can't see the outcome being satisfactory for any of those involved.

It's often the case with cases involving alleged sexual misconduct, it comes down to what version of events a panel, jury etc believe.

The worrying aspect for me is that when an individual is found not guilty or to have no case to answer in investigations involving a sexual matter the alleged victim almost always has the spotlight turned on them and are branded a 'liar' or a 'money grabber' or are accused of 'trying to ruin his life' when in many cases that is a million miles from the truth. It's perfectly possible to believe you have been assaulted, raped, harassed and so on and the defendant be cleared without any willful dishonesty having occurred. Equally Salmond is likely to face the 'no smoke without fire' brigade who want these allegations to be proven whether he is guilty or not.

I hope there is support in place for all concerned because social media is indicative of the political capital some want to make out of this. Nothing is going to be sacred and a lot of people are going to have their private lives exposed and seen as 'fair game'.

[WeeRussell]

stop teasing

:na na:

:wink:

[RyeSloan]

It's often the case with cases involving alleged sexual misconduct, it comes down to what version of events a panel, jury etc believe.

The worrying aspect for me is that when an individual is found not guilty or to have no case to answer in investigations involving a sexual matter the alleged victim almost always has the spotlight turned on them and are branded a 'liar' or a 'money grabber' or are accused of 'trying to ruin his life' when in many cases that is a million miles from the truth. It's perfectly possible to believe you have been assaulted, raped, harassed and so on and the defendant be cleared without any willful dishonesty having occurred. Equally Salmond is likely to face the 'no smoke without fire' brigade who want these allegations to be proven whether he is guilty or not.

I hope there is support in place for all concerned because social media is indicative of the political capital some want to make out of this. Nothing is going to be sacred and a lot of people are going to have their private lives exposed and seen as 'fair game'.

All good points PB but unfortunately there is a big political angle to this, there is simply not getting away from that.

Salmond the doyenne of the SNP is looking to directly challenge a complaints procedure put in place by Sturgeon (the new pretender doyenne).

Add in the personal friendship, political goals and intertwined careers of both and the fact that Sturgeon is FM and leader of the SNP then you get quite a potent cocktail.

And as you rightly state the particular elements of such cases make the waters even muddier.

[lucky]

For someone that doesn't want to comment on the subject until the facts come out and has had enough of bluster and spinning, are you aware you've made more than 1/5 of the posts on this page of the thread?

The way you've written that first line could be easily construed as trolling. Especially as it's you who keeps highlighting what a serious subject this is, amongst your perpetual slavering. Therefore, and I am often correct with these predictions, I think your days on this forum may be numbered.

Mon the admins.

Dislike his posts if you like but why do you think he should be banned from this forum? It can’t just be he’s clearly anti Nationalist. I’ve never understood why fellow Hibs fans want other Hibs fans banned from this form because of their political opinions. If you don’t like reading any particular persons posts put them on the ignore list or stay of the thread they’ve written on.

[Peevemor]

All good points PB but unfortunately there is a big political angle to this, there is simply not getting away from that.

Salmond the doyenne of the SNP is looking to directly challenge a complaints procedure put in place by Sturgeon (the new pretender doyenne).

Add in the personal friendship, political goals and intertwined careers of both and the fact that Sturgeon is FM and leader of the SNP then you get quite a potent cocktail.

And as you rightly state the particular elements of such cases make the waters even muddier.

Sturgeon is letting the enquiry run it's course as she should. Salmond is attacking the leak, not "Sturgeon's" procedure, while also resigning from the SNP to relieve pressure on the party.

Without knowing whether the harassment claims are true, they're both doing the correct thing at the moment.

[RyeSloan]

Sturgeon is letting the enquiry run it's course as she should. Salmond is attacking the leak, not "Sturgeon's" procedure, while also resigning from the SNP to relieve pressure on the party.

Without knowing whether the harassment claims are true, they're both doing the correct thing at the moment.

Oh I’m not saying Nicola hasn’t negotiated the choppy waters well but she has pinned her colours to the mast re the very procedure Salmond is challenging.

It’s an awkward situation for her but as I said so far so good in mitigating any fall out and the opportunist opposition statements.

[lord bunberry]

Dislike his posts if you like but why do you think he should be banned from this forum? It can’t just be he’s clearly anti Nationalist. I’ve never understood why fellow Hibs fans want other Hibs fans banned from this form because of their political opinions. If you don’t like reading any particular persons posts put them on the ignore list or stay of the thread they’ve written on.
It’s the way he posts is the thing that annoyed me, it’s completely unnecessary. We’re all hibs fans on here and we don’t all agree on everything. I don’t agree with you politically, but I’ve never considered putting you on ignore. I agree with you on putting him on ignore if you don’t like it, that’s what I did.

[WeeRussell]

Dislike his posts if you like but why do you think he should be banned from this forum? It can’t just be he’s clearly anti Nationalist. I’ve never understood why fellow Hibs fans want other Hibs fans banned from this form because of their political opinions. If you don’t like reading any particular persons posts put them on the ignore list or stay of the thread they’ve written on.

I never said I wanted him banned, I predicted that he will be. The reasons being exactly as I stated... the posts that could easily be seen as trolling and the repetitive nonsense that doesn't actually say anything.

Absolutely nothing to do with his political opinions (I have no idea what they are other than anti-SNP/independence and 'mon Scottish labour') as I generally like to read alternative views.

Thanks for the advice all the same.

[cabbageandribs1875]

£88, 600 in ecks fund, i'd now like him to thank everyone who donated and close the fund, use the 50k and donate the rest

[johnbc70]

£88, 600 in ecks fund, i'd now like him to thank everyone who donated and close the fund, use the 50k and donate the rest

Well he has proved he is still the 'big man' around town and made himself to look like the victim in this sorry story.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Well he has proved he is still the 'big man' around town and made himself to look like the victim in this sorry story.



whereas all his foes have the two women as the victims, time will tell i guess but at this moment in time he's not guilty of anything, agree though sorry story

[Peevemor]

£88, 600 in ecks fund, i'd now like him to thank everyone who donated and close the fund, use the 50k and donate the restHe said that any unused money will be given to worthy causes.

[cabbageandribs1875]

He said that any unused money will be given to worthy causes.


good stuff :aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Where do folk think this is heading - a criminal prosecution, a civil claim, or no further action?

No criminal conviction, a schism between him and the SNP and his own vices (as well as his own need for cash) will see him become more and more of a pariah - and he will become a bit of a cause celebre for the more extreme, bampot nationalists who believe in MI5 plots and such like.

Maybe end up with a talk radio show, a la George Galloway?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

All good points PB but unfortunately there is a big political angle to this, there is simply not getting away from that.

Salmond the doyenne of the SNP is looking to directly challenge a complaints procedure put in place by Sturgeon (the new pretender doyenne).

Add in the personal friendship, political goals and intertwined careers of both and the fact that Sturgeon is FM and leader of the SNP then you get quite a potent cocktail.

And as you rightly state the particular elements of such cases make the waters even muddier.

Also Sturgeons husband is corporate boss of the SNP, and one of the silent power brokers in the SNP- another layer of complexity that complicated things.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sturgeon is letting the enquiry run it's course as she should. Salmond is attacking the leak, not "Sturgeon's" procedure, while also resigning from the SNP to relieve pressure on the party.

Without knowing whether the harassment claims are true, they're both doing the correct thing at the moment.

She did hang him out to dry though, in nice legalese, political language.

She could quite easily have said he's a great man, innocent until proven guilty and I hope he clears his name.

Instead she has thrown her full weight behind the procedure.

Of course it would have been difficult for her, but so will seeing the SNP most famous face and the man most closely associated with Scottish nationalism trashed in this way. And she showed with Shona Robison that she will be loyal to her friends.

People are deserting him. That says a lot imo - he is not a pleasant man, and he has made plenty of enemies over the years. People tolerate it when you are winning and helping them get elected, but they are also quick to distance themselves and put the boot in when you become toxic and are no longer useful to them - that is politics.

Also, why would a man of such means need to crowd source his defence fund? Surely those are the actions of a man who has a lot less cash than he should have given his earnings, someone who doesnt want to waste his own cash on a fools errand, or someone in desperate need of publicity and an ego boost.

Or perhaps all three?

[RyeSloan]

The crowd source funding of his legal fees is just part of his coordinated response to the situation.

Salmond, love him or loathe him, innocent or guilty, is a master manipulator so it’s no surprise to see him doing what he has.

And anyway why pay for something yourself when you can get others to pay instead? [emoji13]

[pacoluna]

She did hang him out to dry though, in nice legalese, political language.

She could quite easily have said he's a great man, innocent until proven guilty and I hope he clears his name.

Instead she has thrown her full weight behind the procedure.

Of course it would have been difficult for her, but so will seeing the SNP most famous face and the man most closely associated with Scottish nationalism trashed in this way. And she showed with Shona Robison that she will be loyal to her friends.

People are deserting him. That says a lot imo - he is not a pleasant man, and he has made plenty of enemies over the years. People tolerate it when you are winning and helping them get elected, but they are also quick to distance themselves and put the boot in when you become toxic and are no longer useful to them - that is politics.

Also, why would a man of such means need to crowd source his defence fund? Surely those are the actions of a man who has a lot less cash than he should have given his earnings, someone who doesnt want to waste his own cash on a fools errand, or someone in desperate need of publicity and an ego boost.

Or perhaps all three?

It's not a defence fund!

[lucky]

Sturgeon has handled this saga extremely well and has shown good leadership and has defended her top civil servant and the process that’s in place.

Salmond, I’m my opinion is trying to control the story and the agenda. The crowd funding is cringeworthy, he can clearly afford the £50k himself however he’s went down this route as it’s another distraction from the real issue of sexual harassment claims by two women. Like him or loathe him he can control the media message better than most but all the spin is not going to change the bottom line in this case. Two women who worked for us the Scottish people have stated they were sexual harassed by our FM in a Scottish taxpayers funded residence at their place of work.

[johnbc70]

It clear from the last few days that Salmond is very manipulative and likes control, he rarely takes no for an answer. Not the traits you want to be associated with when accused of what he has been accused of.

[WeeRussell]

It clear from the last few days that Salmond is very manipulative and likes control, he rarely takes no for an answer. Not the traits you want to be associated with when accused of what he has been accused of.

Ah come on, John. There has to be more than a fine line between being a stubborn control-freak, and a sex pest.. surely to god?

[Pretty Boy]

It clear from the last few days that Salmond is very manipulative and likes control, he rarely takes no for an answer. Not the traits you want to be associated with when accused of what he has been accused of.

I can see what you are saying. Despite being broadly supportive of independence all of my adult life I've never taken to Salmond: his bombastic and pompous public persona don't do it for me.

However I think in cases like this it's vital everything is judged on facts rather than personality traits, real or imagined. Salmond may well be stubborn, be a control freak, be persuasive and so on but that could apply to any number of people in the general population. It's not a massive leap from saying he 'seems the type' or 'he's got that look'.

Incidentally I was unfortunate enough to work with a guy convicted of a sexual offence, against a child into the bargain, and he was the quietest, most unassuming guy you could meet. A proper butter wouldn't melt type of guy: everyone was shocked when the story came out about him.

[johnbc70]

Ah come on, John. There has to be more than a fine line between being a stubborn control-freak, and a sex pest.. surely to god?

Why is he linking a what is in effect an internal HR process to the Independance cause, his last statement to raise all that money had 'Salmond puts Scottish Independence first' at the top of it! What's this allegation got to do with independence?

He is manipulating people into thinking that this allegation has something to do with the fight for Independence and playing on people's loyalty to him and that cause.

Why not let the Police do their job, he may have no case to answer. He could then launch his fight against the Scottish government.

[pacoluna]

Why is he linking a what is in effect an internal HR process to the Independance cause, his last statement to raise all that money had 'Salmond puts Scottish Independence first' at the top of it! What's this allegation got to do with independence?

He is manipulating people into thinking that this allegation has something to do with the fight for Independence and playing on people's loyalty to him and that cause.

Why not let the Police do their job, he may have no case to answer. He could then launch his fight against the Scottish government.

So he's manipulating us now.. anything else that you would like to add to the list?

Ah I forgot we are part of a cult aren't we.

[lord bunberry]

Whether he’s guilty or not the media and opposition have been an absolute disgrace. This is one of the worst examples
https://twitter.com/brookestimes/status/1035487886093836291?s=21

[marinello59]

So he's manipulating us now.. anything else that you would like to add to the list?

Ah I forgot we are part of a cult aren't we.

He is making himself out to be the victim. It’s as if a large part of the SNP support has learnt nothing from the whole Harvey Weinstein #metoo allegations. Nicola Sturgeon will be privately horrified that Salmond has effectively trashed the process she put in place to enable woman to stand up to powerful men.
Salmond is guilty until proved innocent and I truly hope he is cleared. However the actions of him and his supporters will only serve to alienate woman voters who have been less supportive of Independence than male voters.

[Mibbes Aye]

He is making himself out to be the victim. It’s as if a large part of the SNP support has learnt nothing from the whole Harvey Weinstein #metoo allegations. Nicola Sturgeon will be privately horrified that Salmond has effectively trashed the process she put in place to enable woman to stand up to powerful men.
Salmond is guilty until proved innocent and I truly hope he is cleared. However the actions of him and his supporters will only serve to alienate woman voters who have been less supportive of Independence than male voters.

:agree:

Sturgeon must be furious.

The message to women thinking about complaining about sexual harassment is that, if you're a wealthy, powerful male, you can attract other people to pay your legal costs, regardless of guilt or innocence. So don't even bother and just accept it.

We have enough problems in our society ensuring rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment are prosecuted as it is.

Turning a case into a tawdry 'look at how big my crowdfund is' dick-waving exhibition is hideous.

As you say, it will alienate voters.

[pacoluna]

He is making himself out to be the victim. It’s as if a large part of the SNP support has learnt nothing from the whole Harvey Weinstein #metoo allegations. Nicola Sturgeon will be privately horrified that Salmond has effectively trashed the process she put in place to enable woman to stand up to powerful men.
Salmond is guilty until proved innocent and I truly hope he is cleared. However the actions of him and his supporters will only serve to alienate woman voters who have been less supportive of Independence than male voters.

A load of bollocks, this will have no influence on the yes movement at all. As salmond and the FM said no person is bigger than the cause, with regards to woman most of the donations and comments regarding statement are from them!

Is the metoo movemt only for woman?

[Hibrandenburg]

He is making himself out to be the victim. It’s as if a large part of the SNP support has learnt nothing from the whole Harvey Weinstein #metoo allegations. Nicola Sturgeon will be privately horrified that Salmond has effectively trashed the process she put in place to enable woman to stand up to powerful men.
Salmond is guilty until proved innocent and I truly hope he is cleared. However the actions of him and his supporters will only serve to alienate woman voters who have been less supportive of Independence than male voters.

How you know he's not the victim?

[marinello59]

A load of bollocks, this will have no influence on the yes movement at all. As salmond and the FM said no person is bigger than the cause, with regards to woman most of the donations and comments regarding statement are from them!

Is the metoo movemt only for woman?

Wow.

[pacoluna]

:agree:

Sturgeon must be furious.

The message to women thinking about complaining about sexual harassment is that, if you're a wealthy, powerful male, you can attract other people to pay your legal costs, regardless of guilt or innocence. So don't even bother and just accept it.

We have enough problems in our society ensuring rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment are prosecuted as it is.

Turning a case into a tawdry 'look at how big my crowdfund is' dick-waving exhibition is hideous.

As you say, it will alienate voters.

Once again a lot of politically motivated bollocks.
In fact, the only thing here that may give victims of sexual assault reason to feel unable to come forward is the fact that ScotGov leaked the allegations. Which is the reason why we have things like Judicial Review to keep the Government in check in the first place.

[Mibbes Aye]

Once again a lot of politically motivated bollocks.
In fact, the only thing here that may give victims of sexual assault reason to feel unable to come forward is the fact that ScotGov leaked the allegations. Which is the reason why we have things like Judicial Review to keep the Government in check in the first place.

Oh dear.

[pacoluna]

Oh dear what?
Alex seeking Judicial Review is not a criticism of the complainants but a criticism of ScotGov, and therefor for no reason should it discourage victims of sexual assault from coming forward.

[marinello59]

Once again a lot of politically motivated bollocks.
In fact, the only thing here that may give victims of sexual assault reason to feel unable to come forward is the fact that ScotGov leaked the allegations. Which is the reason why we have things like Judicial Review to keep the Government in check in the first place.

Wow.
It looks like you and others are totally at odds with Nicola Sturgeon. So much for progressive politics, attack anybody or anything that challenges the power of white middle class males.

[marinello59]

Oh dear what?
Alex seeking Judicial Review is not a criticism of the complainants but a criticism of ScotGov, and therefor for no reason should it discourage victims of sexual assault from coming forward.

Again.. wow.

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh dear what?

Oh dear in that it's hardly debate is it?

I see you edited your post - is MeToo beyond your ken or understanding? It's certainly not 'politically motivated bollocks'?

[pacoluna]

Wow.
It looks like you and others are totally at odds with Nicola Sturgeon. So much for progressive politics, attack anybody or anything that challenges the power of white middle class males.

Your replying with the usual patronizing guff to my valid points. Atleast challenge my opinion.

[pacoluna]

Oh dear in that it's hardly debate is it?

I see you edited your post - is MeToo beyond your ken or understanding? It's certainly not 'politically motivated bollocks'?
What's the metoo movement got to with challenging the ScotGov complaints procedure and leaking of details.

[Mibbes Aye]

How you know he's not the victim?

Please expand on how the wealthy and powerful white middle-class middle-aged Establishment-figure male might be the victim in relation to what we understand to be two women in subordinate positions to him?

Not saying it's not true, just asking.

[pacoluna]

Please expand on how the wealthy and powerful white middle-class middle-aged Establishment-figure male might be the victim in relation to what we understand to be two women in subordinate positions to him?

Not saying it's not true, just asking.

Your not asking your insinuating just like the gutter press.

[Mibbes Aye]

What's the metoo movement got to with challenging the ScotGov complaints procedure and leaking of details.

We've covered that - this is about people who have greater status and power using that to buy advantage.

So how about MeToo - are you still saying 'it's politically motivated bollocks'? Why?

[pacoluna]

We've covered that - this is about people who have greater status and power using that to buy advantage.

So how about MeToo - are you still saying 'it's politically motivated bollocks'? Why?

Your comment was politically motivated not the metoo movement.

[Mibbes Aye]

Your not asking your insinuating just like the gutter press.

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies.

Feel even more free to acknowledge that society is riven by deep differences in terms of life chances, opportunities, treatment by the justice system and any other element of civic life at least partly based on factors such as gender, race, class, disability etc etc.

Some people get an easier gig than others.

[Mibbes Aye]

Your comment was politically motivated not the metoo movement.

How would you know what my motivation was for posting?

[pacoluna]

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies.

Feel even more free to acknowledge that society is riven by deep differences in terms of life chances, opportunities, treatment by the justice system and any other element of civic life at least partly based on factors such as gender, race, class, disability etc etc.

Some people get an easier gig than others.

I don't dispute any of that.

[pacoluna]

How would you know what my motivation was for posting?

Why else would you bring up the metoo movement.
In summary, Alex Salmond is not taking ScotGov to court in order to undermine any allegations of any sort but because he believes there has been a failing in ScotGov’s procedure for dealing with such allegations.

[Mibbes Aye]

Why else would you bring up the metoo movement.
In summary, Alex Salmond is not taking ScotGov to court in order to undermine any allegations of any sort but because he believes there has been a failing in ScotGov’s procedure for dealing with such allegations.

I brought up the MeToo movement because what we are seeing here is someone with status and power facing allegations of (at the least) sexual harassment. Said person has chosen to challenge the process, which shifts focus from the allegations. That's not untypical behaviour in relation to the MeToo movement - people with wealth, status and power can bog investigations down in legal proceedings about process to avoid scrutiny of the actual allegations.

The process itself is not a determinant of guilt or innocence but by focusing on it, it diverts from the crucial point (while also setting up a sideshow of internecine SNP warfare).

You said


the only thing here that may give victims of sexual assault reason to feel unable to come forward is the fact that ScotGov leaked the allegations.

I'm sorry but that betrays a deep, deep misunderstanding of why incidents of sexual exploitation, harassment, assault and violence happen, why they are under-reported and why they are under-prosecuted and convicted.

[weecounty hibby]

I feel I need to be clear on my stance and that of all of my political friends. If he has done what is alleged then he should face whatever punishment is appropriate. I like him, have met him a number of times and have always found him inspirational leader on the independence issue. The fact that the Labour party and the Tories are now using this as some kind of weapon against the SNP and independence is a disgrace. Remember all of the scandals that have blighted both of these parties? As I say if he is guilty then fine punish him but please do not take it as an independence bad issue. The folk who are blindly supporting him are as bad as those who have him hung drawn and quartered. Let's see where the process takes us.

[WeeRussell]

Why is he linking a what is in effect an internal HR process to the Independance cause, his last statement to raise all that money had 'Salmond puts Scottish Independence first' at the top of it! What's this allegation got to do with independence?

He is manipulating people into thinking that this allegation has something to do with the fight for Independence and playing on people's loyalty to him and that cause.

Why not let the Police do their job, he may have no case to answer. He could then launch his fight against the Scottish government.

I could agree with all the above and still wonder how it makes him more likely to be a sex pest?

I’m not saying he’s innocent, I really have no idea.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's not a defence fund!

What is it then?

And why would a guy who has earned between circa 70k and 120k a year (plus expenses and a Grace and favour home) for the last 20 odd years need it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What's the metoo movement got to with challenging the ScotGov complaints procedure and leaking of details.

Even if he is challenging a technicality, do you not think in this instance that a man with such astute political instincts might understand that the perception of it, and the effect it would have on the party and the cause he claims to be putting above all else would be?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why else would you bring up the metoo movement.
In summary, Alex Salmond is not taking ScotGov to court in order to undermine any allegations of any sort but because he believes there has been a failing in ScotGov’s procedure for dealing with such allegations.

So it's altruism from Salmond? He's doing it for the Scottish governments own good?

If you believe that, then there really is no hope for you. I hope you donated to his defence fund, you know what they say about fools and their money.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I feel I need to be clear on my stance and that of all of my political friends. If he has done what is alleged then he should face whatever punishment is appropriate. I like him, have met him a number of times and have always found him inspirational leader on the independence issue. The fact that the Labour party and the Tories are now using this as some kind of weapon against the SNP and independence is a disgrace. Remember all of the scandals that have blighted both of these parties? As I say if he is guilty then fine punish him but please do not take it as an independence bad issue. The folk who are blindly supporting him are as bad as those who have him hung drawn and quartered. Let's see where the process takes us.


I feel I need to be clear on my stance and that of all of my political friends. If he has done what is alleged then he should face whatever punishment is appropriate. I like him, have met him a number of times and have always found him inspirational leader on the independence issue. The fact that the Labour party and the Tories are now using this as some kind of weapon against the SNP and independence is a disgrace. Remember all of the scandals that have blighted both of these parties? As I say if he is guilty then fine punish him but please do not take it as an independence bad issue. The folk who are blindly supporting him are as bad as those who have him hung drawn and quartered. Let's see where the process takes us.

Agree with you that this is nothing to with indepdence, nor does it change the fact that he was our best FM in his time.

You are right, we should all just wait and see what transpires - to some the allegations will ring out false, to others they will ring true - none of us know for sure.

However, it's always been a bugbear of mine when political parties call out other political parties for playing politics - it's what they all do.

This is the kind of instance that really should be, but ask yourself if this was Boris Johnson, what would the treatment be from the SNP? Or Donald trump for that matter?

Both the Tories and the Labour party in Scotland have lost leaders (An FM in Labour's case) over 'political scandals' that in sure the SNP were gleefully involved in making hay from.

It's the game they all sign up to. Salmond is the greatest figure in Scottish nationalism since John McCormick or Iain Hamilton imo, and our former leader. This will be a big deal, rightly or wrongly.

And the hypocrisy of a former arch-politician getting all righteous and indignant about leaking - the most common political tool there Is, that I guarantee he has used against people from civil servants, colleagues, opponents etc his whole career, is a bit rich and cones across a bit desperate imo.

[ronaldo7]

Whether he’s guilty or not the media and opposition have been an absolute disgrace. This is one of the worst examples
https://twitter.com/brookestimes/status/1035487886093836291?s=21

Keep yer heid doon oot there. Thone, Snp civil war is causing mayhem all over Scotland.

Splits are irreparable it seems.

Courtesy of the MSM

Wur doomed.

[Hibrandenburg]

Please expand on how the wealthy and powerful white middle-class middle-aged Establishment-figure male might be the victim in relation to what we understand to be two women in subordinate positions to him?

Not saying it's not true, just asking.

How someone accused but not convicted of sexual misconduct could be seen as a victim? Do I really need to spell that out to you? Innocent until proven guilty and if he's cleared of the accusations then he becomes the victim. Seems you've already made your mind up though.

[pacoluna]

So it's altruism from Salmond? He's doing it for the Scottish governments own good?

If you believe that, then there really is no hope for you. I hope you donated to his defence fund, you know what they say about fools and their money.

Once again, a reply from a poster who has an alternative opinion just comes across as patronizing and crass. As of yet no one has argued my points.

[pacoluna]

What is it then?

And why would a guy who has earned between circa 70k and 120k a year (plus expenses and a Grace and favour home) for the last 20 odd years need it?

How can it be a defense fund when he has no charge to defend against? The judicial review has absolutely no bearing on guilt or innocense.

[Moulin Yarns]

How someone accused but not convicted of sexual misconduct could be seen as a victim? Do I really need to spell that out to you? Innocent until proven guilty and if he's cleared of the accusations then he becomes the victim. Seems you've already made your mind up though.

Similar to how John Leslie is treated. Numerous accusations but never found guilty because the 'victims' change their story, or he is acquitted.

[johnbc70]

Keep yer heid doon oot there. Thone, Snp civil war is causing mayhem all over Scotland.

Splits are irreparable it seems.

Courtesy of the MSM

Wur doomed.

So you team Salmond or team Sturgeon?

[lord bunberry]

Keep yer heid doon oot there. Thone, Snp civil war is causing mayhem all over Scotland.

Splits are irreparable it seems.

Courtesy of the MSM

Wur doomed.
I love how #snpcivilwar is trending on twitter. Some of the tweets have been really funny :greengrin

[Chic Murray]

Please expand on how the wealthy and powerful white middle-class middle-aged Establishment-figure male might be the victim in relation to what we understand to be two women in subordinate positions to him?

Not saying it's not true, just asking.

Anybody who has malicious allegations made about them is a victim, regardless of their social class, age, or gender.

Whether Eck is a victim remains to be seen.

Incidentally, most malicious allegations come from people who would see it as a way of fighting back from a sub ordinate position. I made that bit up, but I bet it's true anyway.

[ronaldo7]

So you team Salmond or team Sturgeon?

Team independence.

Team self determination.

It's all the same to me. Salmond and Sturgeon, are on the same team.

Don't believe all you read in the daily heil.

What about you... Team rape clause Ruth, or disability basher May?

[Mibbes Aye]

Anybody who has malicious allegations made about them is a victim, regardless of their social class, age, or gender.

Whether Eck is a victim remains to be seen.

Incidentally, most malicious allegations come from people who would see it as a way of fighting back from a sub ordinate position. I made that bit up, but I bet it's true anyway.

When did they become 'malicious' allegations?

[Just Alf]

When did they become 'malicious' allegations?
If you read what he said....

"Anybody who has malicious allegations made about them is a victim, regardless of their social class, age, or gender."

I don't understand your question, the response was a reply to an earlier post re "victims"

Anyone having a malicious allegation against them is a victim surely?


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

How someone accused but not convicted of sexual misconduct could be seen as a victim? Do I really need to spell that out to you? Innocent until proven guilty and if he's cleared of the accusations then he becomes the victim. Seems you've already made your mind up though.

Being accused of something doesn't make you a victim, don't be ridiculous.

People are accused of things all the time. Sometimes its proven, sometimes it's not proven, sometimes because there's not enough evidence or there's a sympathetic jury or whatever. And thus guilt people can be cleared after being accused but are patently not 'victims'.

In this case, from what I've read, the burden of proof seems like it may be beyond his accusers unless there's evidence yet to come to light. This is often the case in sex crimes (note I'm not suggesting these incidents were sex crimes) because it's so often one person's word against another.

What seems incontrovertible is that far more men get away with sex crimes than are falsely accused of them, and this is often underpinned by dynamics relating to power and status. And a wealthy man flaunting his status by showing he can raise money he probably doesn't need by clicking his fingers is more than distasteful but undoubtedly reinforces a narrative that there's no point challenging sexual harassment if the perpetrator is powerful.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

How can it be a defense fund when he has no charge to defend against? The judicial review has absolutely no bearing on guilt or innocense.

Splitting hairs much?!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Once again, a reply from a poster who has an alternative opinion just comes across as patronizing and crass. As of yet no one has argued my points.

What exactly are your points?

[Moulin Yarns]

Being accused of something doesn't make you a victim, don't be ridiculous.

People are accused of things all the time. Sometimes its proven, sometimes it's not proven, sometimes because there's not enough evidence or there's a sympathetic jury or whatever. And thus guilt people can be cleared after being accused but are patently not 'victims'.

In this case, from what I've read, the burden of proof seems like it may be beyond his accusers unless there's evidence yet to come to light. This is often the case in sex crimes (note I'm not suggesting these incidents were sex crimes) because it's so often one person's word against another.

What seems incontrovertible is that far more men get away with sex crimes than are falsely accused of them, and this is often underpinned by dynamics relating to power and status. And a wealthy man flaunting his status by showing he can raise money he probably doesn't need by clicking his fingers is more than distasteful but undoubtedly reinforces a narrative that there's no point challenging sexual harassment if the perpetrator is powerful.

I would argue that cliff Richard was a victim of unfounded allegations and John Leslie was found not guilty and acquitted of all charges but he is every bit the victim as mud sticks.

[pacoluna]

Splitting hairs much?!

The same lack of understanding regarding the matter with more profiled people will result in them ending up with a libel charge.

[lord bunberry]

Being accused of something doesn't make you a victim, don't be ridiculous.

People are accused of things all the time. Sometimes its proven, sometimes it's not proven, sometimes because there's not enough evidence or there's a sympathetic jury or whatever. And thus guilt people can be cleared after being accused but are patently not 'victims'.

In this case, from what I've read, the burden of proof seems like it may be beyond his accusers unless there's evidence yet to come to light. This is often the case in sex crimes (note I'm not suggesting these incidents were sex crimes) because it's so often one person's word against another.

What seems incontrovertible is that far more men get away with sex crimes than are falsely accused of them, and this is often underpinned by dynamics relating to power and status. And a wealthy man flaunting his status by showing he can raise money he probably doesn't need by clicking his fingers is more than distasteful but undoubtedly reinforces a narrative that there's no point challenging sexual harassment if the perpetrator is powerful.
Being accused of something you didn’t do surely makes you a victim? Making unfounded allegations against someone is a crime. I’m not saying that this is what’s happened in this case, but it does happen.

[Mibbes Aye]

Being accused of something you didn’t do surely makes you a victim? Making unfounded allegations against someone is a crime. I’m not saying that this is what’s happened in this case, but it does happen.

That's a different point to the one I made, namely being accused of something doesn't make you a victim.

You're the one introducing "...something you didn't do" which is a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said. I don't think you know whether he did it or didn't.

Funny observing all this - superNat hero Salmond faces accusations of sexual harassment. Pro-Nat supporters rush to question the process and start trying to create a narrative where he is the victim.

[lord bunberry]

That's a different point to the one I made, namely being accused of something doesn't make you a victim.

You're the one introducing "...something you didn't do" which is a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said. I don't think you know whether he did it or didn't.

Funny observing all this - superNat hero Salmond faces accusations of sexual harassment. Pro-Nat supporters rush to question the process and start trying to create a narrative where he is the victim.
I think you’re being unfair in your post there. While I accept what you’re saying is correct, I’m sure you understand the point about him possibly being the victim. At this point none of us know and we’ll all have to wait and see. I don’t normally comment on these types of accusations no matter what side of the political divide it may fall on, but in this case I feel that the agenda is not about protecting the rights of the women making the allegations, but more about sinking a political heavyweight. I stress that I’m not accusing you of this, but more the general media and political classses.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think you’re being unfair in your post there. While I accept what you’re saying is correct, I’m sure you understand the point about him possibly being the victim. At this point none of us know and we’ll all have to wait and see. I don’t normally comment on these types of accusations no matter what side of the political divide it may fall on, but in this case I feel that the agenda is not about protecting the rights of the women making the allegations, but more about sinking a political heavyweight. I stress that I’m not accusing you of this, but more the general media and political classses.

That's a reasoned post LB.

Salmond being Salmond means it attracts a lot more attention. The tragedy is it takes such a big personality to allow an indirect light to be shone on the fact that if you're a woman the odds are stacked against you should you be the victim of sexual harassment, assault or violence. That's a damning indictment on our society.

[lord bunberry]

That's a reasoned post LB.

Salmond being Salmond means it attracts a lot more attention. The tragedy is it takes such a big personality to allow an indirect light to be shone on the fact that if you're a woman the odds are stacked against you should you be the victim of sexual harassment, assault or violence. That's a damning indictment on our society.
I think in a way you’re right, but I feel slightly uncomfortable that we use the fact that Salmond is such a big personality to draw attention to the plight of the fact that women find these allegations hard to prove. For what it’s worth I feel the system the Scottish government has put in place is flawed. I think the accused should st least know what they are being accused off. I think the whole thing would be better handled if it wasn’t being played out in the full glare of the public. The smart money now will be on it not even coming to trial.

[Mr Grieves]

Whether he’s guilty or not the media and opposition have been an absolute disgrace. This is one of the worst examples
https://twitter.com/brookestimes/status/1035487886093836291?s=21


https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1035976003032690690?s=19

What a poor choice of photo. The problem is they know exactly what they're doing. If you want to know why pro independence folk are untrusting of the media its **** like this.

[Hibrandenburg]

Being accused of something doesn't make you a victim, don't be ridiculous.

People are accused of things all the time. Sometimes its proven, sometimes it's not proven, sometimes because there's not enough evidence or there's a sympathetic jury or whatever. And thus guilt people can be cleared after being accused but are patently not 'victims'.

In this case, from what I've read, the burden of proof seems like it may be beyond his accusers unless there's evidence yet to come to light. This is often the case in sex crimes (note I'm not suggesting these incidents were sex crimes) because it's so often one person's word against another.

What seems incontrovertible is that far more men get away with sex crimes than are falsely accused of them, and this is often underpinned by dynamics relating to power and status. And a wealthy man flaunting his status by showing he can raise money he probably doesn't need by clicking his fingers is more than distasteful but undoubtedly reinforces a narrative that there's no point challenging sexual harassment if the perpetrator is powerful.

Aye Ok, so someone's social standing dictates how he should be treated in the eyes of the law. Now I'm not saying he's either guilty or not guilty but if he is acquitted of any wrong doing then at that point he will have become a victim of false allegations. I'm loving your Wolfie Smith like mantras though.

[marinello59]

Aye Ok, so someone's social standing dictates how he should be treated in the eyes of the law. Now I'm not saying he's either guilty or not guilty but if he is admonished of any wrong doing then at that point he will have become a victim of false allegations. I'm loving your Wolfie Smith like mantras though.

If he is admonished then it will be because he was found guilty.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The same lack of understanding regarding the matter with more profiled people will result in them ending up with a libel charge.

By calling his 'judicial review fund' a 'defence fund? I doubt it.

[ronaldo7]

Found this earlier, it catches the fist stage in salmonds fight to clear his name, and also, the beach of confidentiality to the complainants.

"Leaking details of alleged sexual assaults to a newspaper breaches confidentiality of the complainant. This is a betrayal of trust, gross misconduct and abusive. Clearly someone valued the intended political impact over their civil service duty of care. This is appalling.

Who can possibly feel safe & respected in the Scots civil service now if making complaints against anyone? Particularly if those were against someone of high profile. Your personal experiences at risk of being leaked to the media to cause political embarrassment & propaganda.Whatever the outcomes of the workplace & now police investigation of the allegations made, someone in the civil service has abused trust, betrayed complainants, failed to meet a duty of care, & brought the process and service into disrepute

That person should be held accountable Also the systems, processes protocols & confidentiality arrangements should be subject to external independent review and a Lessons Learned Review over and above any Finding of Fact from a court. It’s just such a serious breach of confidentiality and trust"

[johnbc70]

Found this earlier, it catches the fist stage in salmonds fight to clear his name, and also, the beach of confidentiality to the complainants.

"Leaking details of alleged sexual assaults to a newspaper breaches confidentiality of the complainant. This is a betrayal of trust, gross misconduct and abusive. Clearly someone valued the intended political impact over their civil service duty of care. This is appalling.

Who can possibly feel safe & respected in the Scots civil service now if making complaints against anyone? Particularly if those were against someone of high profile. Your personal experiences at risk of being leaked to the media to cause political embarrassment & propaganda.Whatever the outcomes of the workplace & now police investigation of the allegations made, someone in the civil service has abused trust, betrayed complainants, failed to meet a duty of care, & brought the process and service into disrepute

That person should be held accountable Also the systems, processes protocols & confidentiality arrangements should be subject to external independent review and a Lessons Learned Review over and above any Finding of Fact from a court. It’s just such a serious breach of confidentiality and trust"

"Who can possibly feel safe & respected in the Scots civil service now if making complaints against anyone?"

Indeed, how many women will now think again about reporting a sexual harassment/assault against a powerful man when the first thing that man does is challenge it in the Court of Session, and very publicly raises £100K to do so.

I am sure even you can see that?

[ronaldo7]

"Who can possibly feel safe & respected in the Scots civil service now if making complaints against anyone?"

Indeed, how many women will now think again about reporting a sexual harassment/assault against a powerful man when the first thing that man does is challenge it in the Court of Session, and very publicly raises £100K to do so.

I am sure even you can see that?

I can see it from both sides, the complainants, and salmond.

It's a pity, you can't.

[johnbc70]

I can see it from both sides, the complainants, and salmond.

It's a pity, you can't.

I think both sides have faults, unfortunately leaks happen all the time in big organisations. What does not happen all the time is people taking it to the court of session while crowd funding £100K.

Did you donate?

[ronaldo7]

I think both sides have faults, but leaks happen all the time. What does not happen all the time is people taking it to the court of session while crowd funding £100K.

Did you donate?

New system up to be challenged, if it's found to be flawed it will help cases going forward.

You didn't make such a fuss when Carmichael was a sitting MP, and taking cash from the state, when he set up his crowdfunder.

It's not about the procedure with you, is it?

It's about it being Salmond.

You'd have a better look if you just admitted it.

In answer to your question. No.

[johnbc70]

New system up to be challenged, if it's found to be flawed it will help cases going forward.

You didn't make such a fuss when Carmichael was a sitting MP, and taking cash from the state, when he set up his crowdfunder.

It's not about the procedure with you, is it?

It's about it being Salmond.

You'd have a better look if you just admitted it.

In answer to your question. No.

It's Salmond himself who makes sure it's all about him, not me.

[Hibrandenburg]

If he is admonished then it will be because he was found guilty.

:greengrin why I shouldn't answer after a 14hr shift. I meant acquitted but you know that.

[marinello59]

:greengrin why I shouldn't answer after a 14hr shift. I meant acquitted but you know that.

Yes I did. Apologies for that one, I should have stuck a smilie on the end of it.

[RyeSloan]

Found this earlier, it catches the fist stage in salmonds fight to clear his name, and also, the beach of confidentiality to the complainants.

"Leaking details of alleged sexual assaults to a newspaper breaches confidentiality of the complainant. This is a betrayal of trust, gross misconduct and abusive. Clearly someone valued the intended political impact over their civil service duty of care. This is appalling.

Who can possibly feel safe & respected in the Scots civil service now if making complaints against anyone? Particularly if those were against someone of high profile. Your personal experiences at risk of being leaked to the media to cause political embarrassment & propaganda.Whatever the outcomes of the workplace & now police investigation of the allegations made, someone in the civil service has abused trust, betrayed complainants, failed to meet a duty of care, & brought the process and service into disrepute

That person should be held accountable Also the systems, processes protocols & confidentiality arrangements should be subject to external independent review and a Lessons Learned Review over and above any Finding of Fact from a court. It’s just such a serious breach of confidentiality and trust"

How do we know it was the civil service that was the leek?

In fact the DR itself said they couldn’t get anything out of the SG or Civil Service for months to confirm their story and it appears to me the complaint was investigated in full and completed in confidence.

It was only after the findings were passed to the police that the story came out...

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye Ok, so someone's social standing dictates how he should be treated in the eyes of the law. Now I'm not saying he's either guilty or not guilty but if he is acquitted of any wrong doing then at that point he will have become a victim of false allegations. I'm loving your Wolfie Smith like mantras though.

Only a fool thinks the legal system is all things to all people.

The Wolfie Smith stuff is poor. First of all, most posters on here are far too young to have a clue what you're on about and second of all and more importantly, sexual violence against women and the imbalance in them getting justice is serious and fundamental. It's not some trendy standpoint where you can stick a button on your donkey jacket or army surplus coat, or coax a few laughs from a scene where Robert Lindsay gets the wrong end of the stick.

Looking forward to you describing Black Lives Matter as some silly Diff'rent Strokes nonsense.

[Hibrandenburg]

Only a fool thinks the legal system is all things to all people.

The Wolfie Smith stuff is poor. First of all, most posters on here are far too young to have a clue what you're on about and second of all and more importantly, sexual violence against women and the imbalance in them getting justice is serious and fundamental. It's not some trendy standpoint where you can stick a button on your donkey jacket or army surplus coat, or coax a few laughs from a scene where Robert Lindsay gets the wrong end of the stick.

Looking forward to you describing Black Lives Matter as some silly Diff'rent Strokes nonsense.

Wow, simply wow. You do this a lot and do it quite well to be honest. You take a statement from someone, you know exactly what they mean and then make presumptions that have absolutely nothing to do with the statement and twist a narrative that deflects away from the original subject and thus attempting to steer into a debate you think you can win. It's like debating with someone who is only interested in delivering a monologue.

Now moving away from Black Lives Matter and back to Alex Salmond. He's innocent until proven guilty and despite being middle class he is also entitled to be treated as such. If found guilty he should and will be hammered by the law and hounded by the media. If found innocent there's questions to be asked about his accusers.

Power to the people!

[johnbc70]

If found innocent there's questions to be asked about his accusers.


So if there is a lack of evidence and it is basically his word against their word, which often happens in these cases, and the case is dropped then what questions would you ask them?

[Mibbes Aye]

Wow, simply wow. You do this a lot and do it quite well to be honest. You take a statement from someone, you know exactly what they mean and then make presumptions that have absolutely nothing to do with the statement and twist a narrative that deflects away from the original subject and thus attempting to steer into a debate you think you can win. It's like debating with someone who is only interested in delivering a monologue.

Now moving away from Black Lives Matter and back to Alex Salmond. He's innocent until proven guilty and despite being middle class he is also entitled to be treated as such. If found guilty he should and will be hammered by the law and hounded by the media. If found innocent there's questions to be asked about his accusers.

Power to the people!

There's nothing in your second paragraph I disagree with. Re the last sentence, I think we have to be cautious though. We know, evidentially, that sex crimes are under-reported, under-investigated, under-prosecuted and under-convicted. We have a long way to go in trying to make a level playing field, where the treatment of sex crimes is treated equitably. Accusations of guilt, where innocence is found, aren't always an indicator of malice on the part of the accuser. And in such a high-profile case like this, and as we have seen before, it's not hard to see how the accusers could be utterly trashed on social media and elsewhere for daring to speak out.

[cabbageandribs1875]

New system up to be challenged, if it's found to be flawed it will help cases going forward.

You didn't make such a fuss when Carmichael was a sitting MP, and taking cash from the state, when he set up his crowdfunder.

It's not about the procedure with you, is it?

It's about it being Salmond.

You'd have a better look if you just admitted it.

In answer to your question. No.


the deceitful slimeball will be hoping for a tad more donations soon, very soon https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/alistair-carmichael-scotland-150000-legal-bill-election-court-leaked-memo i hope he's given time to pay his bill, something like £5k/year, then when he makes his yearly payment he will be reminded of what he did, the **** :greengrin

Alistair Carmichael, the former Scotland (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland) secretary, is facing a legal bill of about £150,000 after narrowly surviving a bid to have him ousted as MP for Orkney and Shetland.

[cabbageandribs1875]

21200


:hilarious

[Beefster]

What is it then?

And why would a guy who has earned between circa 70k and 120k a year (plus expenses and a Grace and favour home) for the last 20 odd years need it?

I don’t agree with him crowdfunding his legal action but, at the risk of defending Salmond, earning a decent wage for 20 years doesn’t mean that you necessarily have £50k ready and waiting. His disposable income could have funded a lifestyle, been put into a pension or he could have been feeding a drug habit for all we know.


I would argue that cliff Richard was a victim of unfounded allegations and John Leslie was found not guilty and acquitted of all charges but he is every bit the victim as mud sticks.

You would be completely wrong on Cliff Richard. ‘Insufficient evidence’ is not even remotely the same as ‘unfounded allegations’.

[speedy_gonzales]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1035976003032690690?s=19

What a poor choice of photo. The problem is they know exactly what they're doing. If you want to know why pro independence folk are untrusting of the media its **** like this.
Are you being serious re the photo??? My various social media feeds are full of photos of political leaders pulling faces that have no bearing on the story content.
Theresa May is a prime example, a photo of her sneezing or gurning gets meme'd in to a message as to how she can stomp all the poor people back in to their little boxes!
Have we forgotten the pic of Ed Milliband eating a breakfast roll, it practically single handedly ruined him as Labour Leader. Let's park the actual politics here, this is the "internet" taking advantage of the Instagram generation, where a picture lasts forever but the message only lasts 2 seconds,,,,

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don’t agree with him crowdfunding his legal action but, at the risk of defending Salmond, earning a decent wage for 20 years doesn’t mean that you necessarily have £50k ready and waiting. His disposable income could have funded a lifestyle, been put into a pension or he could have been feeding a drug habit for all we know.



You would be completely wrong on Cliff Richard. ‘Insufficient evidence’ is not even remotely the same as ‘unfounded allegations’.

Or an out of control gambling habit? 🤔

[Mr Grieves]

Are you being serious re the photo??? My various social media feeds are full of photos of political leaders pulling faces that have no bearing on the story content.
Theresa May is a prime example, a photo of her sneezing or gurning gets meme'd in to a message as to how she can stomp all the poor people back in to their little boxes!
Have we forgotten the pic of Ed Milliband eating a breakfast roll, it practically single handedly ruined him as Labour Leader. Let's park the actual politics here, this is the "internet" taking advantage of the Instagram generation, where a picture lasts forever but the message only lasts 2 seconds,,,,

Yes, I'm being serious. It's a poor choice of photo that trivialises a serious issue and has been typical of the coverage of the Salmond allegations.

[WeeRussell]

Are you being serious re the photo??? My various social media feeds are full of photos of political leaders pulling faces that have no bearing on the story content.
Theresa May is a prime example, a photo of her sneezing or gurning gets meme'd in to a message as to how she can stomp all the poor people back in to their little boxes!
Have we forgotten the pic of Ed Milliband eating a breakfast roll, it practically single handedly ruined him as Labour Leader. Let's park the actual politics here, this is the "internet" taking advantage of the Instagram generation, where a picture lasts forever but the message only lasts 2 seconds,,,,

That's not a 'meme' though... it's the times of London promoting an article.

I completely agree it's a very poor choice of photo and totally needless if the reporting is meant to be impartial...

[Chic Murray]

Only a fool thinks the legal system is all things to all people.

The Wolfie Smith stuff is poor. First of all, most posters on here are far too young to have a clue what you're on about and second of all and more importantly, sexual violence against women and the imbalance in them getting justice is serious and fundamental. It's not some trendy standpoint where you can stick a button on your donkey jacket or army surplus coat, or coax a few laughs from a scene where Robert Lindsay gets the wrong end of the stick.

Looking forward to you describing Black Lives Matter as some silly Diff'rent Strokes nonsense.

How do know that?

Buster Keaton was around many years before I was born, but, you know....

[Chic Murray]

the deceitful slimeball will be hoping for a tad more donations soon, very soon https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/alistair-carmichael-scotland-150000-legal-bill-election-court-leaked-memo i hope he's given time to pay his bill, something like £5k/year, then when he makes his yearly payment he will be reminded of what he did, the **** :greengrin

Alistair Carmichael, the former Scotland (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland) secretary, is facing a legal bill of about £150,000 after narrowly surviving a bid to have him ousted as MP for Orkney and Shetland.

Would that be the bid to remove him, after it emerged he had lied to the electorate? Hardly an innocent man seeking to clear his name was it?

[Hibrandenburg]

So if there is a lack of evidence and it is basically his word against their word, which often happens in these cases, and the case is dropped then what questions would you ask them?

If someone is accused of something that has the potential to ruin him, is then investigated and then found to be innocent or acquitted by a court of law, then it is only fair to expect his accusers to have their motivation questioned. Not to do so would open the door for people with malicious grudges conducting their own witch hunts without any consequences for themselves.

[Hibrandenburg]

There's nothing in your second paragraph I disagree with. Re the last sentence, I think we have to be cautious though. We know, evidentially, that sex crimes are under-reported, under-investigated, under-prosecuted and under-convicted. We have a long way to go in trying to make a level playing field, where the treatment of sex crimes is treated equitably. Accusations of guilt, where innocence is found, aren't always an indicator of malice on the part of the accuser. And in such a high-profile case like this, and as we have seen before, it's not hard to see how the accusers could be utterly trashed on social media and elsewhere for daring to speak out.

Agree to pretty much all of that, but there has to some kind of control to ascertain if there is malice behind the accusation or not and if there is then there have to be consequences.

[ronaldo7]

How do we know it was the civil service that was the leek?

In fact the DR itself said they couldn’t get anything out of the SG or Civil Service for months to confirm their story and it appears to me the complaint was investigated in full and completed in confidence.

It was only after the findings were passed to the police that the story came out...

If the daily rectum said it, it must be true .

#21/5/16

[johnbc70]

If someone is accused of something that has the potential to ruin him, is then investigated and then found to be innocent or acquitted by a court of law, then it is only fair to expect his accusers to have their motivation questioned. Not to do so would open the door for people with malicious grudges conducting their own witch hunts without any consequences for themselves.

But what if there is lack of evidence to take this further, it is basically his word against their word. Still questions to be asked of the accusers and their motivation?

I would not be surprised if the women withdraw their complaints as I am sure they never expected the person they complained about would take it to the Court of Session and have an extremely high profile campaign to raise the money to do so.

[CropleyWasGod]

But what if there is lack of evidence to take this further, it is basically his word against their word. Still questions to be asked of the accusers and their motivation?

I would not be surprised if the women withdraw their complaints as I am sure they never expected the person they complained about would take it to the Court of Session and have an extremely high profile campaign to raise the money to do so.He's not taking their complaints to Court.

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[johnbc70]

He's not taking their complaints to Court.

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I know, its the process. But again I bet the women never thought the person they raised the complaint against would challenge the process at the Court of Session and crowdfund the money to do so in such a high profile way.

[CropleyWasGod]

I know, its the process. But again I bet the women never thought the person they raised the complaint against would challenge the process at the Court of Session and crowdfund the money to do so in such a high profile way.I wouldn't be so sure. The support for victims of sexual assault is pretty solid these days. I'm sure that they would have been made aware of the implications of their actions.

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[johnbc70]

I wouldn't be so sure. The support for victims of sexual assault is pretty solid these days. I'm sure that they would have been made aware of the implications of their actions.

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I highly doubt that they would have envisaged Salmond taking the Scottish Government to the highest court in the country to challenge the process they complained under, and to then crowd fund it in the very high profile way that he has done.

Or maybe that's something everyone does when they face a complaint at work.

[Hibrandenburg]

But what if there is lack of evidence to take this further, it is basically his word against their word. Still questions to be asked of the accusers and their motivation?

I would not be surprised if the women withdraw their complaints as I am sure they never expected the person they complained about would take it to the Court of Session and have an extremely high profile campaign to raise the money to do so.

Yes. If the accused is investigated and have their name dragged through the mud then the accusation itself need to be investigated. I realise that this places the emphasis on the alleged victim to prove the guilt of the accused, but that's how it has to be.

[johnbc70]

Yes. If the accused is investigated and have their name dragged through the mud then the accusation itself need to be investigated. I realise that this places the emphasis on the alleged victim to prove the guilt of the accused, but that's how it has to be.

But their accusation has been investigated and it has been deemed there is enough in it for the complaint process to be instigated and passed to the police? What more would you expect to 'prove the guilt' of the accused?

[marinello59]

I wouldn't be so sure. The support for victims of sexual assault is pretty solid these days. I'm sure that they would have been made aware of the implications of their actions.

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Salmond could have closed his crowd funding appeal when it reached target. Instead he let it run to demonstrate just how much power he still has. It’s much more pressure than those who came forward could have expected.

[Hibrandenburg]

Instead he let it run to demonstrate just how much power he still has.

Is this what he told you?

[marinello59]

Is this what he told you?

Eh? Want an odd thing to say.
Salmond is one of the cleverest political operators of his generation. Do you really think he was unaware of the message he was sending out here. Not just to any complainers but also to the Scottish Government and Nicola Sturgeon who quite rightly stand firmly by the whole process.

[CropleyWasGod]

I highly doubt that they would have envisaged Salmond taking the Scottish Government to the highest court in the country to challenge the process they complained under, and to then crowd fund it in the very high profile way that he has done.

Or maybe that's something everyone does when they face a complaint at work.I have second-hand experience of this. The support for complainers often consists of a cross-examination worse than that of a Court, and second-guessing of the defence that might be made. All of which is designed to build a solid case.

So, yes, if the support is clued up as to who the alleged perpetrator is, it wouldn't surprise me if they did envisage this happening.

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[johnbc70]

I have second-hand experience of this. The support for complainers often consists of a cross-examination worse than that of a Court, and second-guessing of the defence that might be made. All of which is designed to build a solid case.

So, yes, if the support is clued up as to who the alleged perpetrator is, it wouldn't surprise me if they did envisage this happening.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

So when making the complaint the women thought 'mmmm, I wonder if Alex will take this to the Court of Session?' and then they thought 'and he will launch a high profile crowdfunder to pay for it'.

I get they knew it would be high profile, but don't believe for one minute they thought it would play out the way it has or that he would link it to Independence.

[CropleyWasGod]

So when making the complaint the women thought 'mmmm, I wonder if Alex will take this to the Court of Session?' and then they thought 'and he will launch a high profile crowdfunder to pay for it'.

I get they knew it would be high profile, but don't believe for one minute they thought it would play out the way it has or that he would link it to Independence.I didn't say the women. I'm speaking about the support that alleged victims can call on. The professionals in their field who know just how difficult it is to make such a charge stick.



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[johnbc70]

I didn't say the women. I'm speaking about the support that alleged victims can call on. The professionals in their field who know just how difficult it is to make such a charge stick.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I thought we were discussing this specific case.

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought we were discussing this specific case.Yep, we are. I'm suggesting that the women will have the type of support that I outlined.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Eh? Want an odd thing to say.
Salmond is one of the cleverest political operators of his generation. Do you really think he was unaware of the message he was sending out here. Not just to any complainers but also to the Scottish Government and Nicola Sturgeon who quite rightly stand firmly by the whole process.

It's not strange at all. What's strange is you having already made up your mind as to his guilt and the reasoning behind how he's chosen to defend himself. Me, I'll wait until the process is concluded before I start throwing stones.

[johnbc70]

It's not strange at all. What's strange is you having already made up your mind as to his guilt and the reasoning behind how he's chosen to defend himself. Me, I'll wait until the process is concluded before I start throwing stones.

So anyone who questions the way Salmond has gone about this is assuming he is guilty? As far as I can see all the criticism has been directed to his legal challenge and the way he has funded it.

You need to separate Alex Salmond the man from Alex Salmond the SNP man.

[marinello59]

It's not strange at all. What's strange is you having already made up your mind as to his guilt and the reasoning behind how he's chosen to defend himself. Me, I'll wait until the process is concluded before I start throwing stones.

What?
I have said several times on here he is innocent until proved guilty and I hope he is innocent. Another odd statement from you.

[Hibrandenburg]

What?
I have said several times on here he is innocent until proved guilty and I hope he is innocent. Another odd statement from you.

"Instead he let it run to demonstrate just how much power he still has."

This is the quote I'm questioning. Do you know this for fact or is it merely a presumption on your part? If it's fact then it's tantamount to witness intimidation. Fwiw I've never been a fan of Salmond, but he's been the victim of many media smear campaigns, my gut feeling is that this is no different but the consequences for him could be on a personal level and not just political. But like I say it's a gut feeling and I'll keep my stones at the ready.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

"Instead he let it run to demonstrate just how much power he still has."

This is the quote I'm questioning. Do you know this for fact or is it merely a presumption on your part? If it's fact then it's tantamount to witness intimidation. Fwiw I've never been a fan of Salmond, but he's been the victim of many media smear campaigns, my gut feeling is that this is no different but the consequences for him could be on a personal level and not just political. But like I say it's a gut feeling and I'll keep my stones at the ready.

I think this can all best be summed-up as Salmond may or may not be guilty of what he has been accused, but he has taken an unusual and questionable approach to dealing with it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think this can all best be summed-up as Salmond may or may not be guilty of what he has been accused, but he has taken an unusual and questionable approach to dealing with it.

Yes, he's "using cannon to fire at sparrows" as the Germans would say. It'll all come out in the wash and we'll know more down the line.

[JeMeSouviens]

I have second-hand experience of this. The support for complainers often consists of a cross-examination worse than that of a Court, and second-guessing of the defence that might be made. All of which is designed to build a solid case.

So, yes, if the support is clued up as to who the alleged perpetrator is, it wouldn't surprise me if they did envisage this happening.

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The victims won't be anywhere near the Court of Session. The case for a judicial review of the Scottish Government's complaints procedure is between Salmond and the Scottish Government.

If the police investigation leads to charges against Salmond I would imagine they'd be at the Sherriff Court or High Court, depending on how serious any charge is.

[pacoluna]

So anyone who questions the way Salmond has gone about this is assuming he is guilty? As far as I can see all the criticism has been directed to his legal challenge and the way he has funded it.

You need to separate Alex Salmond the man from Alex Salmond the SNP man.

Problem is some people on this forum don't know the difference between a funded legal challenge and a defense fund.

[CropleyWasGod]

The victims won't be anywhere near the Court of Session. The case for a judicial review of the Scottish Government's complaints procedure is between Salmond and the Scottish Government.

If the police investigation leads to charges against Salmond I would imagine they'd be at the Sherriff Court or High Court, depending on how serious any charge is.Yeah I know that. I'm trying to demonstrate that, properly advised, the complainers won't necessarily be surprised by the developments.... which is what had been suggested.

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Problem is some people on this forum don't know the difference between a funded legal challenge and a defense fund.

Hark at you.

Yeah, and all of those eejit who are giving him money are really motivated by a desire to ensure that the Scottish governments internal disciplinary procedures are legally watertight, and not at all by trying to demonstrate Salmonds innocence through discrediting that procedure.

You are dancing on the head of a pin to try and make your case, that probably says it all.

[Just Alf]

I highly doubt that they would have envisaged Salmond taking the Scottish Government to the highest court in the country to challenge the process they complained under, and to then crowd fund it in the very high profile way that he has done.

Or maybe that's something everyone does when they face a complaint at work.The route cause for me lies a bit further back... I highly doubt they'd have expected anyone leaking their complaint to the media.

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[Just Alf]

But their accusation has been investigated and it has been deemed there is enough in it for the complaint process to be instigated and passed to the police? What more would you expect to 'prove the guilt' of the accused?
So anyone who questions the way Salmond has gone about this is assuming he is guilty? As far as I can see all the criticism has been directed to his legal challenge and the way he has funded it.

You need to separate Alex Salmond the man from Alex Salmond the SNP man.Hmmm


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[johnbc70]

Hmmm


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Very insightful.

[Just Alf]

Very insightful.Thought that at the time, but take the personalities etc out of it all that 1st quote reads like if the police think it's worth taking you to court then you must be guilty.

Why bother with a trial?

I know that's the extreme side of it but hopefully you see what I'm getting at?



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[johnbc70]

Thought that at the time, but take the personalities etc out of it all that 1st quote reads like if the police think it's worth taking you to court then you must be guilty.

Why bother with a trial?

I know that's the extreme side of it but hopefully you see what I'm getting at?



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I assume the complainants were investigated by the SG and they felt there was enough in them to pass to the police. We don't know yet what the police will do, I suspect nothing if it comes down to one word against another.

[Just Alf]

I assume the complainants were investigated by the SG and they felt there was enough in them to pass to the police. We don't know yet what the police will do, I suspect nothing if it comes down to one word against another.Aye, agree... no one wins in that scenario and if the allegations are true then even worse for those that were brave enough to report it in the 1st place.

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[pacoluna]

Hark at you.

Yeah, and all of those eejit who are giving him money are really motivated by a desire to ensure that the Scottish governments internal disciplinary procedures are legally watertight, and not at all by trying to demonstrate Salmonds innocence through discrediting that procedure.

You are dancing on the head of a pin to try and make your case, that probably says it all.

And your opinion is full of patronizing, bias, idiotic and irelivent bull**** because the reality is unlike me and others you don't actually provide us with a case for relevant debate. You just assume based on absolute sweat fa but your own opinion and prejudice.

[johnbc70]

And your opinion is full of patronizing, bias, idiotic and irelivent bull**** because the reality is unlike me and others you don't actually provide us with a case for relevant debate. You just assume based on absolute sweat fa but your own opinion and prejudice.

Finally realised where your money has gone?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And your opinion is full of patronizing, bias, idiotic and irelivent bull**** because the reality is unlike me and others you don't actually provide us with a case for relevant debate. You just assume based on absolute sweat fa but your own opinion and prejudice.

I think I could be accused of many things on here, but not being willing or able to debate with people (whether they agree or not is obviously a different matter) wouldn't be one of them.

And how do you know what my opinions are based on? Maybe I have worked for the SNP before? Maybe I have worked in Scottish politics for years? Maybe I first joined the SNP in the 1990s? Or maybe I'm a deluded fantasist? Regardless of what it is based on (or not) it's my opinion, which is what I thought this place was all about?

[pacoluna]

I think I could be accused of many things on here, but not being willing or able to debate with people (whether they agree or not is obviously a different matter) wouldn't be one of them.

And how do you know what my opinions are based on? Maybe I have worked for the SNP before? Maybe I have worked in Scottish politics for years? Maybe I first joined the SNP in the 1990s? Or maybe I'm a deluded fantasist? Regardless of what it is based on (or not) it's my opinion, which is what I thought this place was all about?

Your basis for debate is calling people eejits? Eejits for donating to a purpose that you clearly don't understand or can't grasp *it's not a defence fund*. Now i await your opinion through your own analysis as to how it is infact some sort of hidden defence fund or in place to show how powerful he is or something, based ofcourse on no facts whatsoever but pure assumption.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your basis for debate is calling people eejits? Eejits for donating to a purpose that you clearly don't understand or can't grasp *it's not a defence fund*. Now i await your opinion through your own analysis as to how it is infact some sort of hidden defence fund or in place to show how powerful he is or something, based ofcourse on no facts whatsoever but pure assumption.

I called the people who donated eejits, not the people on this thread who I have been debating with.

I perfectly well understand the purpose (and you accused me of being patronising!) - the purpose as I see it, is to equip Salmond with the money to apply for a judicial review, something that is very expensive, and perhaps Salmond has a lot less money than someone who has earned well over a million from politics in the last few years should have.

Why is he doing this? Well, in my view it is to defend his reputation against the allegations, and the way he is doing it is by attempting to demonstrate that the process by which the complaints against him were assessed is flawed, and therefore any conclusions drawn from that process cannot be trusted. Therefore I think my characterisation of it as a defence fund is Fine. Bit maybe you think it would be more accurate to call it the fund for funding the judicial review of Scottish government internal procedures for dealing with allegations of misconduct by senior officials, and nothing whatsoever to do with Alex Salmond and the SNP fund?

That's my analysis, based on my opinion.

Now let me ask you two questions...

Do you think Salmond is going to JR for reasons of altruism?

Do you think anyone who donated to his *fund* did so out of a burning desire to reform internal disciplinary procedures at the Scottish govt? If not, why do you think they did donate?

[Mibbes Aye]

Your basis for debate is calling people eejits? Eejits for donating to a purpose that you clearly don't understand or can't grasp *it's not a defence fund*. Now i await your opinion through your own analysis as to how it is infact some sort of hidden defence fund or in place to show how powerful he is or something, based ofcourse on no facts whatsoever but pure assumption.

When you are digging a hole on a forum it usually makes sense to stop.

[speedy_gonzales]

When you are digging a hole on a forum it usually makes sense to stop.
Or, you push on through and come out the other side!

[johnbc70]

Or, you push on through and come out the other side!

Probably Australia in this case.

[johnbc70]

I hear Salmond is still planning on continuing with his talk show on RT. Next week's show has 2 special guests talking about the sprires of cathedrals across the UK.

[lord bunberry]

I hear Salmond is still planning on continuing with his talk show on RT. Next week's show has 2 special guests talking about the sprires of cathedrals across the UK.
Hilarious :rolleyes:.

[pacoluna]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

[steakbake]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

I'm going to disappoint you all but I think the answer to your last two questions there is No.

What I expect that journos will be very keen to avoid implication or contagion to the Ruth Davidson brand in all of this.

Any incredibly insensitive Tory party treatment of the alleged victim will be the actions of backroom staff - any suggestion that at the moment, Mr Briggs is anything other than innocent will be strenuously avoided.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

Not the same reaction, but still a reaction (main news story on the Scotsman this morning) but he is not as high profile, well known or well liked, and this is still only an accusation that hasn't gone through the process.

I suspect he won't resign, but I think it would be wise for his party to suspend him pending outcome.

I suspect a fair few journos will, yes.

[johnbc70]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

He was cleared after a party investigation.

[pacoluna]

He was cleared after a party investigation.

Yes to the disbelief of rape crisis Scotland, who have written a heavy statement condemning the internal complaint procedures.

[johnbc70]

Yes to the disbelief of rape crisis Scotland, who have written a heavy statement condemning the internal complaint procedures.

Which they are perfectly entitled to do, same as they heavily criticised Alex Salmond for his reaction and actions to the claims against him.

[xyz23jc]

He was cleared after a party investigation.


Ruth: Hi Miles, Anything in this claim?

Miles: Nah, stuff and nonsense o great one!

Ruth: Fine! Issue a statement saying we've investigated thoroughly, mention Salmond and Corbyn a few times. Jobs a good 'un!

[ronaldo7]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

After all of the cases which have come up in the last few years, the bit in bold is the most disgusting. For anyone to ask the alleged victim to face the perpetrator and to be cross examined...what were they thinking.

Rape crisis still saying they've no confidence in the Internal enquiry.

[speedy_gonzales]

Miles Briggs now been accused of sexual assault. The Tories demanded the woman attended a private hearing so Briggs could cross examine her? Wow.

Will it get the same hysterical attention as a recent accusation?
Will this Tory have the decency to resign from his Party as the investigation continues.Will journos demand he is sacked by his boss?

Again, re the bit in bold, did this actually happen? Most reports I've read suggest the complainant was invited to attend a disciplinary committee and the complainant agreed so long as Mr Briggs was not there during her submission, this was agreed by Ruth Davidson.

Whilst this wasn't a court of law I've always thought it correct that a defendant should be able to cross examine an accuser, BUT, there should be controls in place for crimes like this. All complaints should be taken seriously, but then all defendants should be treated as innocent until found otherwise???

[ronaldo7]

Again, re the bit in bold, did this actually happen? Most reports I've read suggest the complainant was invited to attend a disciplinary committee and the complainant agreed so long as Mr Briggs was not there during her submission, this was agreed by Ruth Davidson.

Whilst this wasn't a court of law I've always thought it correct that a defendant should be able to cross examine an accuser, BUT, there should be controls in place for crimes like this. All complaints should be taken seriously, but then all defendants should be treated as innocent until found otherwise???

https://twitter.com/rapecrisisscot/status/1044252633748459520

Seems clear enough to me. They initially said he would cross examine her and after rape crisis got involved, changed the process slightly.

Quite a damning assessment of the flaws of the Tory "investigation" into Mr Briggs. The Tories, in effect, cleared him after they had ensured the complainant and the supporting witnesses wouldn't participate in the hearing.

[speedy_gonzales]

https://twitter.com/rapecrisisscot/status/1044252633748459520

Seems clear enough to me. They initially said he would cross examine her and after rape crisis got involved, changed the process slightly.

Quite a damning assessment of the flaws of the Tory "investigation" into Mr Briggs. The Tories, in effect, cleared him after they had ensured the complainant and the supporting witnesses wouldn't participate in the hearing.
But that's not correct, (unless I've completely misunderstood) the complainant & witnesses were advised not to attend the hearing but they did. Other witnesses were approached and by all accounts seem to back up Mr Briggs version of events, he's even had the cheek to thank those SNP members publicly, cheek as in he could have held his counsel rather than publicly call out the complainant (as good as) as a liar.

Why is it that politicians get the privilege of a party hearing, or parliamentary process,,,, why does this not go straight to Police Scotland?

[ronaldo7]

But that's not correct, (unless I've completely misunderstood) the complainant & witnesses were advised not to attend the hearing but they did. Other witnesses were approached and by all accounts seem to back up Mr Briggs version of events, he's even had the cheek to thank those SNP members publicly, cheek as in he could have held his counsel rather than publicly call out the complainant (as good as) as a liar.

Why is it that politicians get the privilege of a party hearing, or parliamentary process,,,, why does this not go straight to Police Scotland?

I've read page 2 of the rape crisis link differently to you then. :dunno:

No idea why it didn't go to the police either. If it was a Parliamentary event, why wasn't it investigated by the Parliamentary authorities, instead of the Tory party?

It seems the complainant was not at the hearing.

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1044245372204449792

[G B Young]

Which they are perfectly entitled to do, same as they heavily criticised Alex Salmond for his reaction and actions to the claims against him.

And as they did Mark McDonald, who has nevertheless had the brass neck to return to Holyrood as an independent despite being urged, not only by the SNP to stand down, but by all other parties.

[speedy_gonzales]

I've read page 2 of the rape crisis link differently to you then. :dunno:

No idea why it didn't go to the police either. If it was a Parliamentary event, why wasn't it investigated by the Parliamentary authorities, instead of the Tory party?

It seems the complainant was not at the hearing.

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1044245372204449792

Just read that tweet, strange that earlier reports from online MSM seemed to insinuate that the complainant was advised not to go but that she was present, this has changed over the course of this evening.
Also strange that there was calls for Mr Briggs to stand down when people didn't know what the facts were but again, as the evening has progressed, the tide has turned and he has nothing to apologise for or answer to.

[Hibrandenburg]

Strange is that we're discussing Tory nonsense on an SNP nonsense thread when there's a whole Tory nonsense thread to discuss it on.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/hugh-kerr-why-i-quit-labour-to-rejoin-the-snp-1-4805275

former Labour MEP


the only sour notes in the conference, sadly, came from Scottish Labour delegates who seemed to spend more time attacking the SNP than the tories, despite the austerity they rightly complain about having been created by their cuts and the SNP government doing it's best to mitigate them.

Richard Leonard the scottish labour leader, says they will oppose a second referendum on scottish independence, yet he is in favour of a second referendum on Brexit.




welcome to the good guys, the ONLY true Scottish Socialist Party :aok:



Scottish Labour= the wee tories :agree: and the more Scots that become aware of this the better

[cabbageandribs1875]

AND another one

https://allantmoore.wordpress.com/2018/09/23/my-resignation-from-the-labour-party-an-open-letter/


i notice he didn't even receive a reply from that kezia dugdale yin....she maybe got the letter lost under her 'i'm a celebrity' application, yep lots of laughs at 'celebrity' :agree:

[Pete]

The one thing that’s really offputting is the bitterness and anger that’s coming from a section of SNP supporters towards Labour.

It’s really been since Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have taken over...Nationalists have been trying to convince themselves that they are a more of a socialist party than Labour (which is laughable) and trying to tarnish them as some Tory lite party (mainly because they don’t support independence). Labour and their supporters have been no saints either but it seems to be mainly one way.

I’m sorry but current policies are what we should be looking at and making judgements on, not the actions of past administrations that are rather different.

As a former SNP member (a party I have no beef with and admire in some areas) who voted for independence, I find it rather sad that the lunatics are starting to take over the asylum.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The one thing that’s really offputting is the bitterness and anger that’s coming from a section of SNP supporters towards Labour.

It’s really been since Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have taken over...Nationalists have been trying to convince themselves that they are a more of a socialist party than Labour (which is laughable) and trying to tarnish them as some Tory lite party (mainly because they don’t support independence). Labour and their supporters have been no saints either but it seems to be mainly one way.

I’m sorry but current policies are what we should be looking at and making judgements on, not the actions of past administrations that are rather different.

As a former SNP member (a party I have no beef with and admire in some areas) who voted for independence, I find it rather sad that the lunatics are starting to take over the asylum.

Bitterness? Absolutely not.
Personally I find that the Labour party have been a joke in Scotland , even before 2014. They don't know where they're going are what they're doing, Leonard's appointment was hand picked by Corbyn. They're even more of a joke UK wide, a strong opposition would have taken it by the balls ages ago , and maybe would have been in power by now. Corbyn is a brexiteer, party members know it but they don't even discuss it at their conference.

Mon Scottish Labour

[stoneyburn hibs]

And to add to that , the treatment of a former Scottish Labour leader is laughable from Jeremy. All because she doesn't tow the party line.